Author Topic: Where is Heaven?  (Read 8867 times)

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Online Adami

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2011, 10:49:08 AM »
I haven't read the bible to the extent that many of you have, but the first time heaven is mentioned in Genesis, in hebrew at least, it used to describe the sky.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2011, 10:50:23 AM »
there is no doubt that people in general tend to think of heaven as up above us and hell as down below us.  they also picture god as Colonel Sanders  :lol

Offline bosk1

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2011, 10:59:37 AM »
there is no doubt that people in general tend to think of heaven as up above us and hell as down below us.  they also picture god as Colonel Sanders George Burns.  :lol

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2011, 11:20:33 AM »
My point is rather that that definition of heaven is a fairly recent one. Before that, heaven *did* have a location, and it was in the sky. Christianity had a lot of "borrowing" from Greek mythology, and the concept of Hades vs. Heaven was one of those.

rumborak, I have to disagree with this.  With all due respect, you are confusing Catholic Middle Ages doctrine with what writings that pre-date that doctrine (both pre-NT Jewish scripture and the NT writings) actually say. 

Come on, dude. Look at Sheol and how it was commonly translated to Hades, or look at Lazarus and Abraham, and how they're separated by a river in hell. That just screams Styx.

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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2011, 11:24:02 AM »
I would be willing to argue the merits of this whole "it's some invisible spirit playground that can't be seen or touched or blah blah blah."  I quote the respected philosopher B. J. Carlisle:

"Heaven is a place on Earth".

Alternately I'd argue that it could be pinpointed as having once been located in Christy Canyon's bedroom, circa 1986.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2011, 11:46:56 AM »
My point is rather that that definition of heaven is a fairly recent one. Before that, heaven *did* have a location, and it was in the sky. Christianity had a lot of "borrowing" from Greek mythology, and the concept of Hades vs. Heaven was one of those.

rumborak, I have to disagree with this.  With all due respect, you are confusing Catholic Middle Ages doctrine with what writings that pre-date that doctrine (both pre-NT Jewish scripture and the NT writings) actually say. 

Come on, dude. Look at Sheol and how it was commonly translated to Hades, or look at Lazarus and Abraham, and how they're separated by a river in hell. That just screams Styx.

rumborak

???  Um...Sheol was translated into Greek--the dominant language at the time--as "hades," yes.  I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove. 

And, no, Abraham and Lazarus are neither in hell nor separated by a river.  You are mistaken on that point.
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Offline Beowulf

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2011, 12:27:54 PM »
Actually, heaven is in a cornfield/baseball diamond in Iowa.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2011, 12:32:34 PM »
@bosk: Zephaniah's Apocalypse disagrees with you. While not part of official Scripture, it strongly correlates with the Lazarus and the Rich Man parable, and it would be interesting to hear how you tease those apart, and how on the face of it, you can still maintain that Jewish mythology wasn't influenced by Greek.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2011, 12:35:01 PM »
I think you answered that.

not part of official Scripture
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline rumborak

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2011, 12:36:48 PM »
Your belief system is a very shaky construct, bosk.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2011, 12:47:25 PM »
:lol  If you say so.  But I don't really follow the logic since, again, the book you are referring to has nothing to do with Christianity.  You can infer all you like that I should somehow attempt to reconcile it with my beliefs, but there is no reason it should have any more impact on my beliefs than any other work of fiction that sounds like it might be remotely "Christian." 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 09:45:16 AM by bösk1 »
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Online Chino

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2011, 01:10:25 PM »
Heaving is any sound that comes out of Morgan Freeman's mouth.

Offline jsem

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2011, 01:13:02 PM »
Even something hurricane like.. like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDydSrIpZTY

:neverusethis:

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2011, 06:13:51 PM »
Heaving is any sound that comes out of Morgan Freeman's mouth.
I've never heard Morgan Freeman heave.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2011, 06:19:57 PM »
I don't see any reason why not to believe heaven is a real physical place.  The Bible talks about it like it's a real place....so why not.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline j

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2011, 06:40:18 PM »
I don't see any reason why not to believe heaven is a real physical place.  The Bible talks about it like it's a real place....so why not.

I don't think they're saying it isn't real, just not physical.

-J

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2011, 07:06:25 AM »
Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident. 

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2011, 07:25:27 AM »
@ the OP: there is no answer to your question.

If it exists, it has to be somewhere....
Does love exist?  Where is it?

It exists in people's minds, just like god and heaven.  People have different ideas about love as well as god and heaven.  Ideas.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2011, 09:42:26 AM »
Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident. 
It depends on what you mean by "real."  Is math real?  Is science real?
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2011, 11:25:12 AM »
Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident. 
It depends on what you mean by "real."  Is math real?  Is science real?

The position that we cannot know if something is real is moot. What is the reality that we live in is all that matters regardless of whether it is on an alien computer or within the mind of you or I. In order for something to appear it much be physical and there is no reason to feel otherwise.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2011, 11:48:27 AM »
Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident. 
It depends on what you mean by "real."  Is math real?  Is science real?

The position that we cannot know if something is real is moot. What is the reality that we live in is all that matters regardless of whether it is on an alien computer or within the mind of you or I. In order for something to appear it much be physical and there is no reason to feel otherwise.

Exactly.  What you subjectively cannot experience can't really hurt you, so don't sweat it.

Sincerely,
Mr. Carbon Monoxide
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2011, 12:03:06 PM »
 :lol

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2011, 02:45:05 PM »
Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident. 
It depends on what you mean by "real."  Is math real?  Is science real?

The position that we cannot know if something is real is moot. What is the reality that we live in is all that matters regardless of whether it is on an alien computer or within the mind of you or I. In order for something to appear it much be physical and there is no reason to feel otherwise.

Exactly.  What you subjectively cannot experience can't really hurt you, so don't sweat it.

Sincerely,
Mr. Carbon Monoxide

nice play

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2011, 09:55:50 AM »
Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident. 
It depends on what you mean by "real."  Is math real?  Is science real?

The position that we cannot know if something is real is moot. What is the reality that we live in is all that matters regardless of whether it is on an alien computer or within the mind of you or I. In order for something to appear it much be physical and there is no reason to feel otherwise.
What does that have to do with what I asked?
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2011, 10:00:27 AM »
Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident. 
It depends on what you mean by "real."  Is math real?  Is science real?

The position that we cannot know if something is real is moot. What is the reality that we live in is all that matters regardless of whether it is on an alien computer or within the mind of you or I. In order for something to appear it much be physical and there is no reason to feel otherwise.

Exactly.  What you subjectively cannot experience can't really hurt you, so don't sweat it.

Sincerely,
Mr. Carbon Monoxide

nice play

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
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Offline Zook

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2011, 10:04:10 AM »
Great quote. Carl Sagan is my god.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2011, 11:16:31 AM »
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-Carl Sagan-

Given how much focus is put on the Creation by Christianity, it always struck me as weird how little interest people then have in understanding it. It's like getting a book, being excited about it, but then putting it to the side and never opening it. Isn't the best appreciation of a gift to actually use it?

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Offline soundgarden

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2011, 11:55:24 AM »
I forget which old religion claims this; but it is my favorite.

The stars in the sky are "holes" through which the heavens shine through.  The god's are on the other side of this spherical plane.  :hat


"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-Carl Sagan-

After seeing his Cosmos; I feel he is one of the greatest minds of his generation. 

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2011, 06:27:58 AM »
Problem is I don't think that anything that is real is not physical, at least that has been evident. 
It depends on what you mean by "real."  Is math real?  Is science real?

The position that we cannot know if something is real is moot. What is the reality that we live in is all that matters regardless of whether it is on an alien computer or within the mind of you or I. In order for something to appear it much be physical and there is no reason to feel otherwise.
What does that have to do with what I asked?

I thought you were trying to implying that we cannot know that those and other things are real.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2011, 09:56:45 AM »
No, no, no, I don't buy that horseshit.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Fiery Winds

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2011, 04:14:39 AM »
What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can hear, what you can smell, taste and feel, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.

Offline TheVoxyn

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2011, 06:26:16 AM »
What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can hear, what you can smell, taste and feel, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.
Isn't electrical signals interpreted by your brain basically all there is and all you are?

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2011, 07:56:22 AM »
Clearly you've never read the collected works of the great philosopher Morpheus.
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea."

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2011, 12:06:18 PM »
FREE YOUR MIND.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Fiery Winds

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Re: Where is Heaven?
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2011, 03:07:18 PM »
Whoa.