Author Topic: Can a religious opinion be wrong?  (Read 14975 times)

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Offline 73109

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Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« on: January 26, 2011, 05:22:14 PM »
So, something happened to me in class today that, for maybe the first time, left me completely speechless.

In English class, we are going to start reading The Lord of the Flies. The Lord of the Flies deals heavily with morality and asks at many points is man inherently good or evil? We needed to write a journal about this and also talk about how religion affects some people's decisions. This eventually led to a religious discussion amongst my friends. One kid literally said this:

"I don't believe in science."

We asked him what that meant and he replied with the following, "Well...like, the theory of evolution is retarded." Ok, so I can actually see how some might believe this so I asked him to continue. He said:

"Well, I don't believe in atoms."

We, as a group, then asked what we were made out of, and he said cells, and we asked what cells were made out of and he said small particles. We then asked how "small particles" differed from "atoms," and he said he did not know. He also said that us being made out of carbon is complete bull shit. He also said that scientists are wrong when they say the center of the earth is made up of metal. I then asked what it was made up of and he said he had no clue but it wasn't metal. I then said:

"Hey, dude. I totally respect your opinion, but it seems as though you are just simply uninformed. If you don't believe in what scientists are telling you, and you don't even know for yourself, maybe do you think you should not have such a strong opinion?"

I think you would be hard-pressed to even find a radical theist to agree with him. I understand not believing in the theory of evolution, but to me, he basically tried to sell me that 2+2=5 because god says so. Is this so "wrong," it is just wrong?

I am one who is usually respectful of all religious beliefs unless those somehow violate the right of another, but to me, this is pure ignorance and is, by definition, wrong. Am I wrong?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 05:37:02 PM by 73109 »

Offline Chino

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2011, 05:27:15 PM »
There is a difference between being very religious and just plain ignorant.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2011, 05:34:24 PM »
Is this so "wrong," it is just wrong?

I am one who is usually respectful of all religious beliefs unless those somehow violate the right of another, but to me, this is pure ignorance and is, by definition, wrong. Am I wrong?

I agree with you.  Not all beliefs are entitled to deference merely because they are cloaked with being "religious beliefs."  A lot of religious beliefs are wrong, including beliefs that are sincerely held.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2011, 05:35:18 PM »
sounds like a fictional character from a bad movie  :lol

for me, the Scriptures are not wrong.  my understanding of what it means is more than capable of being wrong.  I think these two poles often get missed.

Offline 73109

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2011, 05:36:32 PM »
Is this so "wrong," it is just wrong?

I am one who is usually respectful of all religious beliefs unless those somehow violate the right of another, but to me, this is pure ignorance and is, by definition, wrong. Am I wrong?

I agree with you.  Not all beliefs are entitled to deference merely because they are cloaked with being "religious beliefs."  A lot of religious beliefs are wrong, including beliefs that are sincerely held.

To further the thread along, can I ask of you what beliefs you find to be just completely and utterly wrong?

Offline ehra

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2011, 05:40:35 PM »
I'm not sure how something like "I don't believe in atoms" could even be called a "religious opinion" and not just be a case of someone being plain old wrong. What religious beliefs does this person have that conflicts with the existence of atoms or that we're carbon based?

Offline bosk1

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2011, 05:47:56 PM »
Is this so "wrong," it is just wrong?

I am one who is usually respectful of all religious beliefs unless those somehow violate the right of another, but to me, this is pure ignorance and is, by definition, wrong. Am I wrong?

I agree with you.  Not all beliefs are entitled to deference merely because they are cloaked with being "religious beliefs."  A lot of religious beliefs are wrong, including beliefs that are sincerely held.

To further the thread along, can I ask of you what beliefs you find to be just completely and utterly wrong?

You mean in general, or just in the scenario you mentioned?  If you mean in general, it's almost unlimited.  I mean, people have been coming up with bad ideas since the beginning of time.  :lol

If you are talking about the scenario above, I think all of them are wrong.  The only one that is not completely objectively wrong, IMO, is his belief regarding evolution.  Some evolution does occur, and we can observe it.  I think we can debate about the extent of the evolutionary process or whether macro-evolution occurs, and plenty of atheists and agnostics will even concede that point.  So for him to completely write off evolution is just silly.  And his other points...I just don't see any merit to them.
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Offline ack44

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2011, 06:38:53 PM »
No belief is more "true" than other beliefs, imo, but when lined up to certain standards like "common sense," some beliefs are just truly retarded. This case seems to be more of a problem of attitude though. I mean, if you believe things are made of small particles, then you believe in atoms. His rebellion against scientific convention has got his words all jumbled up, poor little confused thing.

wtf is the internet?

Offline bosk1

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2011, 06:42:08 PM »
While I hate to label anyone's sincerely held beliefs "retarded," anyone saying "I don't believe in science" is, well...let's just say misinformed.  I don't believe in some of the conclusions drawn by modern scientific theory, but really EVERYONE should be able to concede that.  It's just a question of which theories one disagrees with.
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Offline j

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2011, 06:43:26 PM »
And never mind that we can observe atoms using scanning electron microscopes.

Anyway, arguing with this kid is not worth your time.  Some people just ain't gonna budge no matter what they're presented with, for a lot of reasons.  Maybe he'll grow up one day and be a little smarter and more open-minded, but don't bank on it 'cause a lot of people never do.

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Offline ack44

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2011, 07:05:21 PM »
I can't help but hope that the internet will rid the human race of a large portion of baseless opinions and beliefs, but that may just be too optimistic

wtf is the internet?

Offline Ħ

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2011, 07:49:22 PM »
Quote
Can a religious opinion be wrong?

A religious belief is just as much a belief as anything else, I think.  For example, I believe that matter is composed of atoms, that I have two hands, and that God exists.  I don't create a separate category for things that are religious or spiritual.  They are all jumbled together in my mind's pool of beliefs.  I believe in absolute truth, and therefore, any belief, whether religious, scientific, or whatever, can be subject to invalidation.

I took a little liberty in answering the question in regards to beliefs rather than opinions, but...I don't really know what a religious opinion would look like. =/
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2011, 09:16:04 PM »
While I hate to label anyone's sincerely held beliefs "retarded," anyone saying "I don't believe in science" is, well...let's just say misinformed.  I don't believe in some of the conclusions drawn by modern scientific theory, but really EVERYONE should be able to concede that.  It's just a question of which theories one disagrees with.

This might be a good starting point for discussion.  I for one don't see much of a difference between some of the views you hold, Bosk, and the views in the OP.  You're willing to discount several scientific theories with virtually unanimous academic support based on your religious beliefs, and so is the OP.  I mean, you can go to Conservapedia to see a whole bunch of other people with weird religious-based beliefs about subatomic particles.  Where does one draw the line between laughable and respectable?  It's the same thing with newer religions.
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Offline latvianxave8

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2011, 09:38:59 PM »
Is this so "wrong," it is just wrong?

I am one who is usually respectful of all religious beliefs unless those somehow violate the right of another, but to me, this is pure ignorance and is, by definition, wrong. Am I wrong?

I agree with you.  Not all beliefs are entitled to deference merely because they are cloaked with being "religious beliefs."  A lot of religious beliefs are wrong, including beliefs that are sincerely held.

To further the thread along, can I ask of you what beliefs you find to be just completely and utterly wrong?

You mean in general, or just in the scenario you mentioned?  If you mean in general, it's almost unlimited.  I mean, people have been coming up with bad ideas since the beginning of time.  :lol

If you are talking about the scenario above, I think all of them are wrong.  The only one that is not completely objectively wrong, IMO, is his belief regarding evolution.  Some evolution does occur, and we can observe it.  I think we can debate about the extent of the evolutionary process or whether macro-evolution occurs, and plenty of atheists and agnostics will even concede that point.  So for him to completely write off evolution is just silly.  And his other points...I just don't see any merit to them.

No sir... the extent that evolution occurs is not being debated. We know that macroevolution occurs. Macroevolution is simply microevolution, over and over again. The only difference is time scale. Just like the only difference between a 20 foot walk and 20 mile walk is time scale. What debates ARE going on in evolution, you may be asking? Well, some people think that evolution occurs in huge steps over long periods of time (for example, there are millions of years with almost no evolution occuring and then suddenly a bunch of evolution occurs), and some think that evolution is an entirely gradual process that is always going on. There is also some debate as to whether natural selection is the only force driving evolution, or there are other forces that complement natural selection (like DNA mutations). But NO, NO, NO, NO, there is NO debate WHAT SO EVER as to the EXTENT that evolution occurs.

Also, about this religious nut saying that he doesn't BELIEVE in evolution, well.. with science, there is no BELIEF, because the word belief implies faith. There is no faith in science. Either you accept science, or you do not accept science. "I do not accept evolution" valid claim. "I do not believe in evolution" invalid claim because evolution is not grounded in faith. The same applies to any theory of science, atomic theory, theory of relativity, you name it.

Also, something I wanted to touch into here - nothing in science is proven. Proof is a MATH term, not a SCIENCE term. That is why the highest level of confidence anything can reach in SCIENCE is THEORY, to get above theory, you have to dive into the field of mathematics. 2 + 2 = 4? Proven. The planet Jupiter is larger than the planet Saturn? not proven. Now do you some of you this may sound like complete rubbish but it is true. Now, there are certain things (like evolution, and the Moon is smaller than the Sun), that while they have not been proven, we are almost 100% certain that they never will be disproven. Why is nothing in science proven, I hear you ask. Well, that is because science is always wanting to IMPROVE, or CHANGE. If scientists said something is PROVEN, that means it is absolute truth. If something is aboslute truth, a more correct explanation cannot be devised. If a more correct explanation cannot be devised, than it cannot change, and as I said before, science is all about change.

/rant for now, if anyone would wish to debate me on any of the point I made, I would be happy to - but please, no straw mans.

Offline j

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2011, 09:50:36 PM »
 :lol

(for example, there are millions of years with almost no evolution occuring and then suddenly a bunch of evolution occurs)

I have never met a scientist who believes this, and I'm not even sure what it means.  "Suddenly a bunch of evolution occurs". :lol

Quote
There is also some debate as to whether natural selection is the only force driving evolution, or there are other forces that complement natural selection (like DNA mutations).

The basis for evolution/natural selection IS DNA variance and mutation.

Quote
Also, about this religious nut saying that he doesn't BELIEVE in evolution, well.. with science, there is no BELIEF, because the word belief implies faith. There is no faith in science. Either you accept science, or you do not accept science. "I do not accept evolution" valid claim. "I do not believe in evolution" invalid claim because evolution is not grounded in faith. The same applies to any theory of science, atomic theory, theory of relativity, you name it.

If nothing is proven in science, which you stated in your post (and correctly, I think, in the strictest sense), then how is there no "belief" in science?  There is always some level of "belief" when you take the word of others.  It's not feasible for me to go into my backyard and exhaustively test every known law of physics, let alone every claim made in every field of science ever.  I use the information available to me and draw conclusions from it, while remaining open to other possibilities and future discoveries.  Granted, this is not the same as religious belief, but it's a type of belief nonetheless.

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2011, 09:57:18 PM »
I don't know the science behind it, but when I look at dogs and how many new breeds are created all the time because of what breeders have been doing I have no problem believing that an ape could become a human over millions of years, especially if God wanted it to be that way.

Offline sonatafanica

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2011, 10:58:26 PM »
Oh yes, the old evolution being by the hand of god gig. Classic.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2011, 11:06:15 PM »
Are you here to discuss things, or are just taking pot-shots at people's beliefs?

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2011, 01:28:31 AM »

Also, about this religious nut saying that he doesn't BELIEVE in evolution, well.. with science, there is no BELIEF, because the word belief implies faith. There is no faith in science. Either you accept science, or you do not accept science. "I do not accept evolution" valid claim. "I do not believe in evolution" invalid claim because evolution is not grounded in faith. The same applies to any theory of science, atomic theory, theory of relativity, you name it.


I can appreciate a spirited defense of science against the rants of uninformed fundies, but don't incorrectly redefine terms to make your point. The Greek word for "faith" used in the Bible is "pistis." And it doesn't mean "belief without evidence." Having faith means to trust (Jesus, in this instance) based on evidence that the trust is appropriate. You stopped short of classifying religion as fairytale, but I thought I'd preempt the "religion is mythical, science is testable" argument.   

Offline Zook

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2011, 01:33:01 AM »
Doesn't evolution go against god being perfect in every way? God created everything and if he's perfect, there would be no need to evolve anything cause then he made a mistake amirite???

Offline latvianxave8

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2011, 04:39:13 AM »
:lol

(for example, there are millions of years with almost no evolution occuring and then suddenly a bunch of evolution occurs)

I have never met a scientist who believes this, and I'm not even sure what it means.  "Suddenly a bunch of evolution occurs". :lol

I was speaking in lamens terms. I don't actually mean suddenly, as in within seconds, I mean comparatively suddenly. For example, for about 200 million years very little evolution occurs, but then over the course of the next 500,000 years lots of evolution occurs. And just because you have never met a scientists who "believes" this doesn't mean it isn't real, its called punctuated equilibrium.

Quote
There is also some debate as to whether natural selection is the only force driving evolution, or there are other forces that complement natural selection (like DNA mutations).

The basis for evolution/natural selection IS DNA variance and mutation.

Exactly, thats the debate. Some people think that DNA mutations aren't important, others think it is.

Quote
Also, about this religious nut saying that he doesn't BELIEVE in evolution, well.. with science, there is no BELIEF, because the word belief implies faith. There is no faith in science. Either you accept science, or you do not accept science. "I do not accept evolution" valid claim. "I do not believe in evolution" invalid claim because evolution is not grounded in faith. The same applies to any theory of science, atomic theory, theory of relativity, you name it.

If nothing is proven in science, which you stated in your post (and correctly, I think, in the strictest sense), then how is there no "belief" in science?  There is always some level of "belief" when you take the word of others.  It's not feasible for me to go into my backyard and exhaustively test every known law of physics, let alone every claim made in every field of science ever.  I use the information available to me and draw conclusions from it, while remaining open to other possibilities and future discoveries.  Granted, this is not the same as religious belief, but it's a type of belief nonetheless.

No you idiot. Science has evidence. Evidence means that there is no faith. By definition it is not grounded in faith if you have evidence.

-J

Offline jsem

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2011, 05:04:35 AM »
Doesn't evolution go against god being perfect in every way? God created everything and if he's perfect, there would be no need to evolve anything cause then he made a mistake amirite???
Why not use evolution then?
This argument leaves nothing but a deadlock.


There is a difference between being very religious and just plain ignorant.
This though...  100% agree

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2011, 06:12:32 AM »
I don't know the science behind it, but when I look at dogs and how many new breeds are created all the time because of what breeders have been doing I have no problem believing that an ape could become a human over millions of years, especially if God wanted it to be that way.

I don't understand why a god would waste 3 billion years (scratch that, try 13 billion if you're going back to the Big Bang) on the torturous process of building up from single cell organisms (not to mention losing most of his work every time the planet crashed and he forgot to save) to arrive at humans, then put them through ~150,000 years of hardship until they develop civilization so they could worship him/her/it.  That's a bit of a stretch.  The domestication and breeding of dogs are just an example of how adaptation can occur when we're pulling the strings, similar to the domestication of crops or genetic engineering.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2011, 06:33:43 AM »
I don't know the science behind it, but when I look at dogs and how many new breeds are created all the time because of what breeders have been doing I have no problem believing that an ape could become a human over millions of years, especially if God wanted it to be that way.

I don't understand why a god would waste 3 billion years (scratch that, try 13 billion if you're going back to the Big Bang) on the torturous process of building up from single cell organisms (not to mention losing most of his work every time the planet crashed and he forgot to save) to arrive at humans, then put them through ~150,000 years of hardship until they develop civilization so they could worship him/her/it.  That's a bit of a stretch.  

Well you're putting a ton of words in my mouth, so I shouldn't even bother responding, though I will:

All I said was I find it likely that evolution is really true, and IF it is really true, it occurred because a.) it was the means by which God wanted to create human life or because b.) because it was part of a natural process that occurred as a result of something God initially created and did not want stopped. No, I'm not saying that this opinion should be taught in schools-- thought it should be, under a different banner: the banner of philosophy.

Unfortunately, the same academics you've mentioned who will 'unanimously declare' just about anything have already sold out there humanities departments in favor of the bottom line, and soon parents who don't have a clue what 'ethics' or 'spirituality' is will be customizing their future childrens' genes in order to make them as good at doing math problems, playing sports, and attracting partners of the opposite sex as possible... OK I admit now's not the time for THAT rant.

Annnnyway.... I believe that the personal opinion I stated above and in the previous post is just as likely as the one that says, "nothing just created something from itself and that stuff created more things over billions of years." If you don't think so, that's to bad. But I'll err on the side of admitting I don't know everything, and have faith that what I believe in is worthwhile.

A final word about academia: I haven't been around it long, but I have been around it long to realize that 'almost unanimous academic consensus' is absolute bullshit and can't be trusted. Again, I'm not denying that evolution occurred/s or that the Big Bang also may have, or that humans have been here on Earth for more than 6,000 years. But unfortunately academic 'peer-review' rarely means "a bunch of really smart people were able to come to the same conclusion about something" as often as it means "one really smart person has a theory, and 2,000 academics are currently slapping their own buzzwords onto a zombified version of this research in order to get published somewhere and save their own skin."
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 06:41:35 AM by Perpetual Change »

Offline ack44

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2011, 06:59:41 AM »
Maybe like God created the world in 7 days, then said screw it and triggered the big bang instead, then evolved some lizards on a remote planet and watched their civilization bloom, then evolved some monkeys on a different planet and watched the lizards conquer the monkeys and mess with their DNA so that the monkeys will always be bound by crappy religions and crappy scientific metanarratives and never be able to see the lizards controlling their minds and dictating their dreams. And like maybe the only interaction God makes with the physical world is as a member of an insignificant forum on the internet making useless troll posts, thus trolling the entire human race with the entertainment he finds in being profoundly insignificant.

wtf is the internet?

Offline ack44

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2011, 07:02:13 AM »
And maybe God's only contribution to human civilization was the "lol jesus" meme.

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Offline Chino

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2011, 07:15:13 AM »
Quote
here is also some debate as to whether natural selection is the only force driving evolution, or there are other forces that complement natural selection (like DNA mutations).

DNA mutations are the driving force behind evolution. When a DNA strand replicates itself, it must find matching nucleotides to attach itself to in order to make a perfect replica. Some times incorrect nucleotides make it to the new DNA strand, and the new strand is now considered mutated. Occasionally a mutation will be great enough to affect the life of whatever (we'll call it a dog). Sometimes the mutation helps the animal, some times it hurts it. If it hurts the dog in any way, it might cause it to die before it can pass the bogus gene along. but if a gene mutated and allowed a dog to have more muscles around its jaw, we'll say 3% more strength. If that 3% gave it even the slightest edge on catching prey, it is more likely to survive. Not only does it survive, but it passes that additional 3% along. It's decedents over time may also experience similar mutations. Over the course of a few hundred years, you made see a dog with 80% more biting strength than the one that we started with. I know it's not the best example, but I just woke up and my brain isn't in full swing yet.

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2011, 07:16:11 AM »
Yes, all of em.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2011, 07:25:01 AM »
A question to the biologists: is sexual selection considered part of natural selection? 
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Offline ack44

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2011, 07:34:23 AM »
Not a biologist but I'd say yes. Characteristics that assist individual survival, group survival and reproductive capacity fuse together in one big melting pot, in my understanding.

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2011, 07:35:32 AM »
Back to the original question of this thread, yes, religious opinions can be wrong. I'm sure the vast majority of opinions held by people in the name of religion are wrong. Is it wrong for them to have their opinions? No, they can think whatever they want. But having an opinion on a matter that has basically been conclusively proven to be wrong is kind of a stupid thing to do. But it's so easy for religious people to say "God made it that way" or "It's Satan trying to confuse us", so there's really no reason to argue with them.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2011, 07:35:50 AM »
:lol

(for example, there are millions of years with almost no evolution occuring and then suddenly a bunch of evolution occurs)

I have never met a scientist who believes this, and I'm not even sure what it means.  "Suddenly a bunch of evolution occurs". :lol

I was speaking in lamens terms. I don't actually mean suddenly, as in within seconds, I mean comparatively suddenly. For example, for about 200 million years very little evolution occurs, but then over the course of the next 500,000 years lots of evolution occurs. And just because you have never met a scientists who "believes" this doesn't mean it isn't real, its called punctuated equilibrium.

Quote
There is also some debate as to whether natural selection is the only force driving evolution, or there are other forces that complement natural selection (like DNA mutations).

The basis for evolution/natural selection IS DNA variance and mutation.

Exactly, thats the debate. Some people think that DNA mutations aren't important, others think it is.

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Also, about this religious nut saying that he doesn't BELIEVE in evolution, well.. with science, there is no BELIEF, because the word belief implies faith. There is no faith in science. Either you accept science, or you do not accept science. "I do not accept evolution" valid claim. "I do not believe in evolution" invalid claim because evolution is not grounded in faith. The same applies to any theory of science, atomic theory, theory of relativity, you name it.

If nothing is proven in science, which you stated in your post (and correctly, I think, in the strictest sense), then how is there no "belief" in science?  There is always some level of "belief" when you take the word of others.  It's not feasible for me to go into my backyard and exhaustively test every known law of physics, let alone every claim made in every field of science ever.  I use the information available to me and draw conclusions from it, while remaining open to other possibilities and future discoveries.  Granted, this is not the same as religious belief, but it's a type of belief nonetheless.

No you idiot. Science has evidence. Evidence means that there is no faith. By definition it is not grounded in faith if you have evidence.

-J

#1:  Learn how to use quotes properly.  Your words go outside the quote box.  I was about to give J a warning for calling you an idiot, and then realized that it was actually you.
#2:  Which brings me to the more serious issue:  Read the forum rules before your next post.  Next time I see you make a personal attack on another user, you will be out of here no questions asked.
#3:  Thanks for the lecture.  I won't go into how many logical fallacies you commited in your arguments because the bigger point is that there are tons of threads that are actually about the issues you raised.  This is not one of them.  But thanks to your off-topic rant, the entire thread is now pretty much way off topic.  Don't do that again.


To the rest of you, please check the OP and try to keep your posts on topic.  It's an interesting discussion that will naturally bring up tangents.  It's understandable that side discussion will occur.  But try your best to stick to the topic at hand.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline bosk1

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2011, 07:37:21 AM »
Oh yes, the old evolution being by the hand of god gig. Classic.

Similar warnings for you.  You are free to disagree with anything you like.  But your P/R posts that I have seen lately are nothing but trolling.  Either contribute or stay out of P/R please.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline bosk1

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2011, 07:44:53 AM »
While I hate to label anyone's sincerely held beliefs "retarded," anyone saying "I don't believe in science" is, well...let's just say misinformed.  I don't believe in some of the conclusions drawn by modern scientific theory, but really EVERYONE should be able to concede that.  It's just a question of which theories one disagrees with.

This might be a good starting point for discussion.  I for one don't see much of a difference between some of the views you hold, Bosk, and the views in the OP.  You're willing to discount several scientific theories with virtually unanimous academic support based on your religious beliefs, and so is the OP.  I mean, you can go to Conservapedia to see a whole bunch of other people with weird religious-based beliefs about subatomic particles.  Where does one draw the line between laughable and respectable?  It's the same thing with newer religions.

Excellent points.  Obviously, on any of the specific points you might raise, we could go into exhaustive detail.  I'll take more of a macro approach.  Going back to what WW pointed out about faith above, faith should be based on a sufficient amount of evidence that whatever the belief is, it is reasonable.  It is examining the evidence we can see and relying on it to believe something is true that we can not see.  I believe there is sufficient evidence for the things I believe.  The disctinction between that and the things Numbers posted is that that person does not have any evidentiary basis to believe the things he believes, but simply believes them.  You say you don't see much difference between the two sets of beliefs.  The differences may seem small or subtle, but they are important differences nonetheless.

But again, great points.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline ack44

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Re: Can a religious opinion be wrong?
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2011, 07:52:03 AM »
Smells like Josh McDowell.

wtf is the internet?