Assisted Suicide

[Jamesman42]

From wikipedia:

Deism...Further the term often implies that this supreme being does not intervene in human affairs...

[rumborak]

Err,I don't think you got the point of my post. The point was to show that there is no observable difference between a God who answers prayers and one who doesn't.

rumborak

[Jamesman42]

Eh whatever. I said it's complicated and experience helps you understand it. It can't be boiled down to simple statements like we're trying to do.

[rumborak]

Eh whatever. I said it's complicated and experience helps you understand it.

That's like saying "only a dead man can tell whether he's dead."

rumborak

[kirbywelch92]

Sorta, but if you don't get it, it's because it's still His will, not so much that you dun goofed. The sin in us makes us undeserving of His love.

So, it's win-win for God, He essentially can't screw up. Actually, He is better off not doing anything, since if he just lets things play out, the people praying will assign the good to stuff to His doing, and the bad stuff to their own deserving. As long as the believer truly thinks he is implicitly undeserving, God essentially can lean back and do nothing.

rumborak

Well, I won't pretend to speak for all Christians, but as for myself you're half correct. God can't screw up because he is perfection. Whenever something we pray for doesn't come true it's often within God's will that it didn't come true. To take it one step further, it's very possible that God often INTENDS for us to suffer at times. We assign all things to him, good and bad because he is the Creator. The idea that all things are happy in Christianity is for house wives and televangelists, anyone who's actually legitimately read the Bible will know that's not true.

[TheVoxyn]

I don't like the fact that whatever happens, it's always something that God intended. Nearby a church collapsed a few weeks ago (over the border, in Belgium). Apparantly it was God's work since he made sure it collapsed when there was no one inside. What a great level of deductive thinking.

The church was probably empty 80% of the time. Also, why would he let a church collapse?

[Jamesman42]

Eh whatever. I said it's complicated and experience helps you understand it.

That's like saying "only a dead man can tell whether he's dead."

rumborak

Actually, because Jesus offers true life, it's more like "only a truly living man can tell about those kinds of things."

[eric42434224]

I don't like the fact that whatever happens, it's always something that God intended. Nearby a church collapsed a few weeks ago (over the border, in Belgium). Apparantly it was God's work since he made sure it collapsed when there was no one inside. What a great level of deductive thinking.
The church was probably empty 80% of the time. Also, why would he let a church collapse?

It is simply a way for people to attempt to explain something they cant explain.

Actually, because Jesus offers true life, it's more like "only a truly living man can tell about those kinds of things."

It's also a way to exclude people who dont share the same view.

[Jamesman42]

*sigh*

[j]

Well, I won't pretend to speak for all Christians, but as for myself you're half correct. God can't screw up because he is perfection. Whenever something we pray for doesn't come true it's often within God's will that it didn't come true.

I think this was part of rumbo's point: what is the point of prayer if God's just going to carry out his will no matter what?

-J

[TheVoxyn]

Maybe he will change his grand scheme if you beg long enough.

[eric42434224]

*sigh*

exactly

[eric42434224]

Maybe he will change his grand scheme if you beg long enough.

"This is the kid, calls me 59 days in a row, wants to be a player. There ought to be a picture of you in the dictionary under persistence kid."

[Ħ]

Well, I won't pretend to speak for all Christians, but as for myself you're half correct. God can't screw up because he is perfection. Whenever something we pray for doesn't come true it's often within God's will that it didn't come true.

I think this was part of rumbo's point: what is the point of prayer if God's just going to carry out his will no matter what?

-J

But God isn't going to carry out his will no matter what.  His will today is that all men will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).  But it doesn't quite happen that way because there are many verses that clearly state that salvation is conditional.

I believe that what prayer does is work in accordance with what God's purpose is at the time.  For example, he is forming the Body in most of the NT.  But in the OT he is forming Israel.  Both groups have special needs that God will grant through prayer.

I believe that the purpose of prayer today is actually carried out in the very act of praying--peace, clarity, and focus in the heart and mind of a believer.  That said, I don't believe God is a "matchmaker," gives signs, or even heals people.  But back then, as Jesus tells everybody, if you were to pray for healing or any other physical thing, it would be answeed 100% of the time.  Didn't he say that people could even move mountains through prayer?

[Ħ]

Wow this topic sure took a turn from its original purpose.  Hope AndyDT doesn't mind.  If anyone wants to challeng me or James maybe you can start a new thread?

EDIT: I mean, sorry Cole!  I got this confused with AndyDT's thread.

[Adami]

Wow this topic sure took a turn from its original purpose.  Hope AndyDT doesn't mind.  If anyone wants to challeng me or James maybe you can start a new thread?

Or we could pray for a new thread.


First one to get it wins!


Also, this is Coles thread, not Andys.

[eric42434224]

I say yes, but with some type of process that can hopefully determine that the person is fully aware of the choice and its ramifications.  That is an irrevocable decision that shouldnt be made if the person isnt of sound mind.

[sonatafanica]

Well, I won't pretend to speak for all Christians, but as for myself you're half correct. God can't screw up because he is perfection. Whenever something we pray for doesn't come true it's often within God's will that it didn't come true.

I think this was part of rumbo's point: what is the point of prayer if God's just going to carry out his will no matter what?

-J

But God isn't going to carry out his will no matter what.  His will today is that all men will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).  But it doesn't quite happen that way because there are many verses that clearly state that salvation is conditional.

I believe that what prayer does is work in accordance with what God's purpose is at the time.  For example, he is forming the Body in most of the NT.  But in the OT he is forming Israel.  Both groups have special needs that God will grant through prayer.

I believe that the purpose of prayer today is actually carried out in the very act of praying--peace, clarity, and focus in the heart and mind of a believer.  That said, I don't believe God is a "matchmaker," gives signs, or even heals people.  But back then, as Jesus tells everybody, if you were to pray for healing or any other physical thing, it would be answeed 100% of the time.  Didn't he say that people could even move mountains through prayer?

But don't people pray that some things will turn out in a certain way?

What's the point of prayer if it's pretty much just asking for something that's either going to happen whether you prayed for it or not, or it doesn't happen, in which case it also didn't matter if you prayed for it.

[kirbywelch92]

I don't like the fact that whatever happens, it's always something that God intended. Nearby a church collapsed a few weeks ago (over the border, in Belgium). Apparantly it was God's work since he made sure it collapsed when there was no one inside. What a great level of deductive thinking.

The church was probably empty 80% of the time. Also, why would he let a church collapse?

I don't know, seems like a silly thing to ask. Why didn't the church become a mega-church? To your first sentence, I say that there are probably a lot of things that just happen, with or without God's intention. God is omnipresent, but that doesn't mean he acts on everything all the time.

[sonatafanica]

Then how do you classify what constitutes as an act of God? Just the things you can't explain?

[eric42434224]

I say that there are probably a lot of things that just happen, with or without God's intention. God is omnipresent, but that doesn't mean he acts on everything all the time.

Or doesnt act on them at all.  But that isnt comforting to the human mind....hence the human mind inventing the catch-all of "It was God's Will".

[TheVoxyn]

I don't like the fact that whatever happens, it's always something that God intended. Nearby a church collapsed a few weeks ago (over the border, in Belgium). Apparantly it was God's work since he made sure it collapsed when there was no one inside. What a great level of deductive thinking.

The church was probably empty 80% of the time. Also, why would he let a church collapse?

I don't know, seems like a silly thing to ask. Why didn't the church become a mega-church? To your first sentence, I say that there are probably a lot of things that just happen, with or without God's intention. God is omnipresent, but that doesn't mean he acts on everything all the time.

This:

Then how do you classify what constitutes as an act of God? Just the things you can't explain?

When is something an act of God en when is it not? Is someone dying in an accident an act of God or is it just something that happened by chance? Or someone being barely saved from death?



Too be quite honest I've heard 'Everything is God's wish' quite a lot. I find it very hard to believe that someone can still have faith in a God that wishes so much bad things on the world.

[yeshaberto]

what role God plays in the routine of the world is a mystery.  scripture leaves no doubt that He is sovereign over His creation, yet we find passages like "time and chance happen to them all" in Ecclesiastes.  I tend to think that there are some things that are simply left to random chance (though He is still sovereign ultimately) and other times He intercedes.  the picture in the book of Job is that Satan approaches God to bring harm to Job.  God sees the potential benefit of allowing harm to Job, but He also places certain restrictions upon the harm that Satan brings to Job.  God's intention of allowing harm is good, Satan's intention of bringing harm is destruction.  While it is Satan who brings trial to Job, ultimately it is only God's sovereignty that allows it.

[sonatafanica]

what role God plays in the routine of the world is a mystery.  scripture leaves no doubt that He is sovereign over His creation, yet we find passages like "time and chance happen to them all" in Ecclesiastes.  I tend to think that there are some things that are simply left to random chance (though He is still sovereign ultimately) and other times He intercedes.  the picture in the book of Job is that Satan approaches God to bring harm to Job.  God sees the potential benefit of allowing harm to Job, but He also places certain restrictions upon the harm that Satan brings to Job.  God's intention of allowing harm is good, Satan's intention of bringing harm is destruction.  While it is Satan who brings trial to Job, ultimately it is only God's sovereignty that allows it.

It's nice to see God and Satan working together like all good buddies do.

[Quadrochosis]

what role God plays in the routine of the world is a mystery.  scripture leaves no doubt that He is sovereign over His creation, yet we find passages like "time and chance happen to them all" in Ecclesiastes.  I tend to think that there are some things that are simply left to random chance (though He is still sovereign ultimately) and other times He intercedes.  the picture in the book of Job is that Satan approaches God to bring harm to Job.  God sees the potential benefit of allowing harm to Job, but He also places certain restrictions upon the harm that Satan brings to Job.  God's intention of allowing harm is good, Satan's intention of bringing harm is destruction.  While it is Satan who brings trial to Job, ultimately it is only God's sovereignty that allows it.

It's nice to see God and Satan working together like all good buddies do.

This; that thought is really fucking scary. If God and Satan are going to be paring up then I want nothing to do with either of them.

[ack44]

It's a mystery why suicide is illegal. Unenforceable laws always seem to have significantly negative effects.

[Adami]

It's a mystery why suicide is illegal. Unenforceable laws always seem to have significantly negative effects.

I wonder what the potential punishment would be.

[ack44]

Well before the separation of church and state, the laws extended to the afterlife (so to speak). So most people today don't feel that hanging onto a miserable life is hanging onto their chance to escape eternal damnation.

[Adami]

Well before the separation of church and state, the laws extended to the afterlife (so to speak). So most people today don't feel that hanging onto a miserable life is hanging onto their chance to escape eternal damnation.

Oh I know.

But it's still a law, and every law has to have a punishment or else it's a pointless law. I'm curious what the punishment (without god or an afterlife) would be.

[ack44]

I'm sure God punishes people after they're gone, but authorities can only resort to giving people incentives not to do it. Back in the day the family members were probably harassed after the suicide, so you'd have to kill yourself knowing that would be a consequence. That would actually be one way to reduce suicide bombings, if it wasn't such a cross-border phenomenon.

[El Barto]

It doesn't appear to be a law anymore.  Texas, and apparently all other states, have repealed that law.  Promoting or assisting is obviously a crime, and they're obligated to lock you up if they think you're suicidal, but the act itself isn't prohibited. 

[chknptpie]

Yes, but with a strong, developed process. There should be an extended time period and counseling before assistance takes place. The authorities must know for sure, the person is right in their mind. I also think the family should  be included in the process at some point for understanding and forgiveness. If after all is said and done and the person still wants to go, then let them.

[eric42434224]

Yes, but with a strong, developed process. There should be an extended time period and counseling before assistance takes place. The authorities must know for sure, the person is right in their mind. I also think the family should  be included in the process at some point for understanding and forgiveness. If after all is said and done and the person still wants to go, then let them.

I disagree that the family needs to be included in the process.  I do think that the person should understand the ramifications it can have on the family, but to have the family directly involved would be a nightmare.

[The Texas Pirate!]

It is my oppinion that assisted suicide is wrong.
my reasons are quite simple.

1. if you cant find a rope to hang yourself, ya aint trying hard enough.
2. if ya cant slit your own jugulars with a knife, you aint trying hard enough.
3. if you cant put a gun to your own head and pull the trigger, ya aint trying hard enough.
4. if ya cant fall out a window to your death, ya aint trying hard enough.
5. if you cannot find a toxic chemical to swallow, ya aint trying hard enough.
6. if you cant do any of the above you are either incompitant, a coward, or a quadrapaligic.
7. if you hang, stab, shoot, poison, or push someone out a window to their death, you will be charged with MURDER, not assisted suicide.
8. wah wah wah it hurts. suffer though life like the rest of us. whine some more.
9. its against my religious beleifes (sp?)
10. if ya dont like it move to Texas and commit a crime punishable with the death penalty.

[Quadrochosis]

10. if ya dont like it move to Texas and commit a crime punishable with the death penalty.

Petty theft counts, right?