Train of Thought Appreciation Thread

[Ħ]

Yesterday at school, we learned about sociological food problems. 

Or at least, my peers did.  I busied myself for two hours analyzing which album was potentially the greatest.  I basically compiled three categories: good, meh, and bad.  At first, I thought the album with the crown was going to either be IaW or SDOIT.  IaW only had one bad song, two meh songs, and five good songs.  SDOIT had two bad, no meh, and four good songs (including a 42 minute song).  In the end, I went for SDOIT, simply because of the 2:1 good to bad ratio.

Then I came to ToT.  I started categorizing the songs, and, to my surprise, there were NO bad songs.  Only two recieved a meh rating, and FIVE recieved a good rating.  That gives us a 5:2 good to meh ratio, which is much better than a 2:1 good to bad ratio.

It was then that I knew in my heart that ToT was  going to come out on top.

From cover to cover, this album does not hold back.  There is so much energy and power behind each and every song.  After thinking about it a bit, I realized that ToT is basically a heavy IaW.  You open up with a semi-mainstream sounding song, with real grungy riffs that make you slowly bob your head.  You close with a song that builds up, reaches a peak, has a final chorus, and ends with a vocal fadeout (sort of, in ItNoG's case).

Not only that, but the mixing is incredible.  I believe it was Reapsta that brought up the point that JMX brings a lot of strength to the compositions because his bass is so loud.  HTF was the example given.

The three most common favorite albums I've seen have been IaW, Awake, and SFAM.  I do feel that those albums have a degree of nostalgia with them, but they don't really feel fresh anymore.  Yet even after 8 years, ToT still feels fresh.

Oooooo, I love this album.

Here's the ranking I came up with, by the way, if anyone's interested.  It's weird because up until yesterday, I would have placed Awake at the top on instinct, but on closer analysis, it really didn't fare too well.

ToT
SDoiT
IaW
SFaM
BCaSL
FII
Awake
Octavarium
SC
WDaDU

[MykeHavoc]

Near the bottom of the list for me. Sorry, but it's an insanely weak album in the DT canon. I put SC and maybe WD&DU beneath it.

[Algo Fonix]

It's weird.  I LOVED the album, then I went and saw them on the ToT tour... and I started to dislike the album.  I think more than anything, seeing them live blew the studio performance out of the water.  In the past year or so, I've gotten back into it and I'm digging it again. 

It's not one of my favorite DT albums, but I still enjoy the heck outta it.

[Dream Team]

Calling ToT a heavy I&W is an epic insult to I&W; kind of like . . . reaching for an analogy here . . . I don't know, kind of like saying Cannibal Corpse is a heavier version of the Beatles.

[MykeHavoc]

  Yeah that sounds about right.

I think it's a great sounding record. It has it's moments. But at the end of the day, it just doesn't stack up with their better works.

[RuRoRul]

Then I came to ToT.  I started categorizing the songs, and, to my surprise, there were NO bad songs.  Only two recieved a meh rating, and FIVE recieved a good rating.  That gives us a 5:2 good to meh ratio, which is much better than a 2:1 good to bad ratio.

This, so much. Train Of Thought is my favourite DT album. Several of their best songs come from it, and it's their most consistent album. As I Am is good as a straight forward song with a decent solo, Vacant is just a 2 minute intro to Stream Of Consciousness that works well, and then the bulk of the album is 5 really solid songs. People talk about the structure they'd like a new album to be, and for me it's Train Of Thought - just a few brilliant songs,. The 20 minute epic + others can be good, but usually the other songs suffer. And the many shorter songs makes it more likely some of the songs won't be so great.

Obviously the old stuff is great, and being old it has an immediate advantage in terms of people choosing their favourites. But for me it's Train of Thought, all the way. SDOIT is a second, then SFAM, BC&SL, I&W and maybe even SC are all around the same, I could favour one more than the other depending on when you ask me.

This is the kind of appreciation thread I like  

[Ħ]

My personal ranking of the two conjoined album's songs:

Learning to Live
Surrounded
Endless Sacrifice
Honor Thy Father
Take the Time
Metropolis
In the Name of God
As I Am
Wait for Sleep
This Dying Soul
Another Day
Pull Me Under
Under a Glass Moon
Vacant

For me, they're neck and neck., but ToT fares slightly better.

As for the objective ranking (and I know people hate that word), it would probably look like this:

Learning to Live
Metropolis
In the Name of God
Surrounded
Take the Time
Honor Thy Father
Endless Sacrifice
Under a Glass Moon
Wait For Sleep
Another Day
This Dying Soul
Pull Me Under
As I Am
Stream of Consciousness
Vacant

Hmm.  So, I guess, objectively, IaW is the best.  But from my emotionally-tainted perspective, ToT is better, and I connect with it and appreciate it more.

[Seventh Son]

>objective

[Ħ]

I don't get the ">" meme.  How does it work?

[lithium112]

I think Train of Thought is a GREAT album. I love the fact that it's so consistently heavy throughout (except Vacant obviously). DT has plenty of songs that are mellow or progressive, so it's just really cool to see them go all-out metal for an album and melt some faces. The fact that they're able to do this makes me really appreciate the heaviness and then also really appreciate the other qualities of the band in other albums. I sort of see it as similar to when Opeth released Damnation and Deliverance. Just makes you really dig the different sides of the band.

And Stream of Consciousness still remains my number 1 song I'd love to see live but haven't yet.

[robwebster]

Here's the ranking I came up with, by the way, if anyone's interested.  It's weird because up until yesterday, I would have placed Awake at the top on instinct, but on closer analysis, it really didn't fare too well.

I think it's Derek Oliver who chalked Awake's commercial failure to the fact that while it's a very good album, it has none of those "great" songs that punch you in the face. I'd have to say I totally agree with him. On the back of IAW, which sold like hotcakes, it's kind of the album which had the clearest path in front of it, but it didn't make much of a splash. With a fairly mediocre host of songs, it wasn't exactly a gift to the advertisers.

Not saying it's a bad album. It's intelligent, brimming with atmosphere, very well-written, and it feels thematic like no other album since - even the thematic ones. So I'm very glad we've got that music to enjoy. But it's a very modest album. Mediocre probably wasn't the most appropriate word.

Train of Thought, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. Every song is a statement in itself. Lays its cards out on the table within the first minute, and then pounds it home. Really brimming with life, and bristling with heaviness, but the thing is that it's also absolutely chock full of stellar melodies. It's not just a heavy album. It's very catchy, and melodic, and well-written. Got a lot of time for Train of Thought, and I've said this many times lately, but I'm convinced it's currently going through its fan re-evaluation phase as SDOIT did a few years back.

[Ħ]

Here's the ranking I came up with, by the way, if anyone's interested.  It's weird because up until yesterday, I would have placed Awake at the top on instinct, but on closer analysis, it really didn't fare too well.

I think it's Derek Oliver who chalked Awake's commercial failure to the fact that while it's a very good album, it has none of those "great" songs that punch you in the face. I'd have to say I totally agree with him. On the back of IAW, which sold like hotcakes, it's kind of the album which had the clearest path in front of it, but it didn't make much of a splash. With a fairly mediocre host of songs, it wasn't exactly a gift to the advertisers.

Not saying it's a bad album. It's intelligent, brimming with atmosphere, very well-written, and it feels thematic like no other album since - even the thematic ones. So I'm very glad we've got that music to enjoy. But it's a very modest album. Mediocre probably wasn't the most appropriate word.

Train of Thought, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. Every song is a statement in itself. Lays its cards out on the table within the first minute, and then pounds it home. Really brimming with life, and bristling with heaviness, but the thing is that it's also absolutely chock full of stellar melodies. It's not just a heavy album. It's very catchy, and melodic, and well-written. Got a lot of time for Train of Thought, and I've said this many times lately, but I'm convinced it's currently going through its fan re-evaluation phase as SDOIT did a few years back.

This could have been written by Shakespeare.

[robwebster]

Here's the ranking I came up with, by the way, if anyone's interested.  It's weird because up until yesterday, I would have placed Awake at the top on instinct, but on closer analysis, it really didn't fare too well.

I think it's Derek Oliver who chalked Awake's commercial failure to the fact that while it's a very good album, it has none of those "great" songs that punch you in the face. I'd have to say I totally agree with him. On the back of IAW, which sold like hotcakes, it's kind of the album which had the clearest path in front of it, but it didn't make much of a splash. With a fairly mediocre host of songs, it wasn't exactly a gift to the advertisers.

Not saying it's a bad album. It's intelligent, brimming with atmosphere, very well-written, and it feels thematic like no other album since - even the thematic ones. So I'm very glad we've got that music to enjoy. But it's a very modest album. Mediocre probably wasn't the most appropriate word.

Train of Thought, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. Every song is a statement in itself. Lays its cards out on the table within the first minute, and then pounds it home. Really brimming with life, and bristling with heaviness, but the thing is that it's also absolutely chock full of stellar melodies. It's not just a heavy album. It's very catchy, and melodic, and well-written. Got a lot of time for Train of Thought, and I've said this many times lately, but I'm convinced it's currently going through its fan re-evaluation phase as SDOIT did a few years back.

This could have been written by Shakespeare.

Cheers for the sentiment, but I have it on very good authority that Shakespeare actually thought Dream Theater sold out with Images and Words, and is more of a Porcupine Tree fan nowadays.

[LudwigVan]

I can't wait for the SC fan re-evaluation phase.      

[robwebster]

I can't wait for the SC fan re-evaluation phase.      

Nor me! Ooooh that's gonna be a fun one.

Give it half a decade, mind.

[j]

Here's the ranking I came up with, by the way, if anyone's interested.  It's weird because up until yesterday, I would have placed Awake at the top on instinct, but on closer analysis, it really didn't fare too well.

I think it's Derek Oliver who chalked Awake's commercial failure to the fact that while it's a very good album, it has none of those "great" songs that punch you in the face. I'd have to say I totally agree with him. On the back of IAW, which sold like hotcakes, it's kind of the album which had the clearest path in front of it, but it didn't make much of a splash.

Can't get on board with your whole post rob, but I completely agree with this.  As far as prog goes, I&W is full of the catchy melodies and elements that give music more accessibility (relatively speaking), while Awake is much harder to digest.

Gotta disagree with your ranking too, Brother.  Less than half of ToT is "good" IMO, and I place it in DT's bottom three albums (along with SC and Octavarium).  Nearly all of the instrumental passages are bland and uninteresting, the lyrics aren't good, and in general I just don't think DT is at their best when doing all-out metal. *shrug*

I do share your love for I&W and SDOIT though; those are my #1 and #3, respectively.  And I agree that I&W doesn't really sound "fresh", but I attribute that to its production.  Awake still sounds fairly modern to my untrained ears, as does everything that has come since.

-J

[orcus116]

In The Name Of God, Honor Thy Father, and the first half of This Dying Soul are all pretty awesome.

[bosk1]

For context, here is my DT album ranking:

1.  Six Degrees
2.  Scenes From a Memory
3.  Images & Words
4.  Octavarium
5.  Awake
6.  Black Clouds
7.  Falling Into Infinity
8.  Systematic Chaos
9.  Train of Thought
10.  WDADU

As you can see, it does not rank highly in DT's discography.  But that being said, I agree with Rob's assessment and I do find it to be a very good album.  Another interesting thing that I find about this album is that, on one hand, it is heavy from start to finish, which kind of makes it an exhausting listen.  On the other hand, to me, it really picks up steam toward the end.  That 1-2-3 combo of Vacant, SOC, ITNOG at the end is just stellar.  So, overall, fine album.  I do have my complaints about it, but it's a great album.  After the fact, I find that it and Octavarium compliment each other very nicely, and I often find myself wanting to listen to both of them back to back.

[robwebster]

Here's the ranking I came up with, by the way, if anyone's interested.  It's weird because up until yesterday, I would have placed Awake at the top on instinct, but on closer analysis, it really didn't fare too well.

I think it's Derek Oliver who chalked Awake's commercial failure to the fact that while it's a very good album, it has none of those "great" songs that punch you in the face. I'd have to say I totally agree with him. On the back of IAW, which sold like hotcakes, it's kind of the album which had the clearest path in front of it, but it didn't make much of a splash.

Can't get on board with your whole post rob, but I completely agree with this.  As far as prog goes, I&W is full of the catchy melodies and elements that give music more accessibility (relatively speaking), while Awake is much harder to digest.

Yeah, do regret using the word "mediocre" to an extent. Think modest covers it, though.

Awake makes a hell of a lot of artistic sense, but not so much business sense. Think the label were right to try and squeeze a hit out of them. A Pull Me Under II is exactly what the album needed. They didn't want to change the band, just give the public an excuse to stick with them.

Still! All went down well in the end, and we've got a lovely bit of Awake to listen to, now, so history's history.

[bosk1]

Yes, but also keep in mind the year it was released.  Althought DT wasn't really part of "mainstream metal," you need sort of a mainstream album for it to generate sales numbers.  And think about the shift that was going on at that time. 

[Seventh Son]

I think the Mirror could have done well. Its dark, but its quite catchy if I do say so myself.

[Dublagent66]

I really liked it a lot at the time it came out, but it hasn't really aged well for me.  Still a solid metal album and it has a lot of cool riffs, but the excess can really wear on you after a while.  It was probably a little too rushed in the making of it, but at the same time, they didn't seem to realize that it's ok to just end a song and move on without a few extra minutes of noodling.  HTF and ITNOG are highlight tracks for me.

[juice]

good album although not my favorite.  In the Name of God is in my top 10 favorite songs. 

[ScioPath]

ToT is a solid album.

I&W and SFAM (I hope grouping them isn't cheating?)
Awake
SDOIT
8vm
FiI
ToT
BC&SL
SC
WDADU

IaW only had one bad song

Which one?

[Ħ]

Under a Glass Moon.  Vocals and drums are incredible, plus you have the major guitar solo.  But all DT songs have that.  It's great by music standards, poor by DT standards.  It's lyrically useless, emotionally void, and is ultimately forgettable.  The intro is as bad as Innocence Faded's and the outro is as bad as Caught in a Web's.  There is seriously no point or purpose to this song.  It's one of the few I'd label "filler."

[bosk1]

It was a grower for me.  I used to think the way you did about it until I realized I was wrong.  The only truly bad song on that album is Another Day.

[skydivingninja]

Under a Glass Moon.  Vocals and drums are incredible, plus you have the major guitar solo.  But all DT songs have that.  It's great by music standards, poor by DT standards.  It's lyrically useless, emotionally void, and is ultimately forgettable.  The intro is as bad as Innocence Faded's and the outro is as bad as Caught in a Web's.  There is seriously no point or purpose to this song.  It's one of the few I'd label "filler."

WAT.
 

On the topic of ToT, I'm not a fan.  Second worst DT album, even though it does have winners like ITNOG, As I Am, and Vacant.

[zxlkho]

I think I legitimately dislike this album. It honestly might be my least favorite from DT.

Also, In The Name of God is way overrated. I've seen people say it's a "near perfect" song. It's the furthest thing from that for me.

[bosk1]

Interestingly, I&W and SC are the two albums that most closely match up if I were going by how many song are good, bad, etc.  For me, it breaks down about like this:

                       I&W                     SC
Stellar:            Metropolis           ITPOE1
                       Learning To Live  Constant Motion
VERY good:     Wait For Sleep     Forsaken
                       Pull Me Under     ITPOE2
Good:              UAGM                 TDEN
Just okay:        Take The Time    Repentence
Not very good: Surrounded        TMOLS
Bad:                Another Day       Prophets of War      

[Ħ]

It was a grower for me.  I used to think the way you did about it until I realized I was wrong.  The only truly bad song on that album is Another Day.

Another Day is my second least favorite from the album.  It's one I'd put in the "meh" category.  The other one I'd label as "meh" would be Pull Me Under.  *shrugs*  That's just my opinion.

[hefdaddy42]

It's a pretty good album, but it's too one-dimensional for me to listen to very often.  But no way is it better than Images & Words.

[j]

Under a Glass Moon.  Vocals and drums are incredible, plus you have the major guitar solo.  But all DT songs have that.  It's great by music standards, poor by DT standards.  It's lyrically useless, emotionally void, and is ultimately forgettable.  The intro is as bad as Innocence Faded's and the outro is as bad as Caught in a Web's.  There is seriously no point or purpose to this song.  It's one of the few I'd label "filler."

Gah, you're killin' me Brother!

Also, In The Name of God is way overrated. I've seen people say it's a "near perfect" song. It's the furthest thing from that for me.

Yeah.  It's pretty cool, but the solo/unison section is terrible.  Annoying, even.  Sounds hard to play, I'll give 'em that.

Another Day is my second least favorite from the album.  It's one I'd put in the "meh" category.  The other one I'd label as "meh" would be Pull Me Under.  *shrugs*  That's just my opinion.

Same here.  I don't dislike either of 'em by any means, but Another Day is a little too saturated with '80s cliches and Pull Me Under just isn't that interesting to me anymore.

Bosk, your grading of SC songs scares and confuses me.

-J

[Zook]

This album is pure badassery-ness. This Dying Soul is one of the best songs on the album and I don't understand the hate. I just don't understand.

[Ħ]

Bosk, your grading of SC songs scares and confuses me.

I honestly can't tell if he's serious or just mocking my comparison of IaW to ToT.

[bosk1]

Dead serious.  I don't see I&W and TOT as being comparable, but I do get a direct comparison bewteen I&W and TOT in terms of the number of songs that I would place in each category.

I guess I could try to do a similar breakdown for TOT, but it's a lot harder for me to put songs from that album into those categories because, while they all have a lot going for them, most of them have things that drag them down.  But I'll give it a shot:

Stellar:           Stream of Consciousness
                      ITNOG
VERY good:     Vacant
Good:              As I Am
Just okay:        This Dying Soul
                       Honor Thy Father
Not very good:  Endless Sacrifice