The Haken thread v. Restoration

[Nick]

Well, if I had to guess I would say it's going to be nearly identical to the unique songs from set 1 and set 2 from the ProgNation cruise.

[ariich]

Yeah, assuming Pete Rinaldi is still playing bass for them and hasn't had time/inclination to learn any more songs.

[Estiui]

What? Isn't Conner already playing with them? 

[BlackInk]

Finally have my rankings for the Haken albums finished.

The lower the points, the better the album:

1. Aquarius (45,86)
2. Visions (128,13)
3. The Demo (130,67)
4. The Mountain (132,55)

I really didn't expect the Demo to beat The Mountain.

And also I guess I should have to take this back:

Haken's "worst" (excluding the demo) easily and with no doubt tops DT's best.

Turns out that only Aquarium beats everything DT has done. And Six Degrees, Train of Thought, and Octavarium all ended up beating the other three Haken albums.

[KevShmev]

Ranking albums on some kind of point system like that reminds me of the scene in Dead Poets Society where Keating mocked the mathematical formula use to rate poetry. 

[BlackInk]

Well, how else am I going to know for sure?

But it isn't really just pure mathematics, it all starts with my opinion on the individual songs of the albums.

[Estiui]

How is each score obtained? Really weird numbers there 

[BlackInk]

I rank all the songs from best to worst (along with some other bands as well, which is why the score can get so high), then add their positions to each other and devide them by how many songs there are on the album to get the "album average".

So Aquarius would be #4 + #10 + #31 + #39 + #50 + #63 + #124 = 321
And then 321/7 songs = 45,86 points 

[KevShmev]

Okay, but why should a 6-minute song get just as much statistical value as a 16-minute song?

For example, say I used your formula to rate Rush's 2112.  Even though the title track is over 20 minutes long and takes up over half of the record, it would only count for 1/6 of the score since it is one of six songs.  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to do it that way. 

[Nick]

Bingo. It's exactly why years back I did the DT song ranking excel sheet project that factored in song lengths.

[BlackInk]

I thought of that too, and I plan to fix it the next time I do them again. I thought I'd make it so that they'd also get scored based on how much percentage of the album it takes up. But for this time I had to settle with some imperfections, sure.

[Dublagent66]

I'm still undecided on Aquarius.   I've listened to it twice now, and still nothing.

It's gonna take more than two spins.  Trust me, it gets better and better.  Great album.

[Estiui]

Yeah, that does not seem an accurate calculation at all. Also, a movement in the first positions of the list counts the same as in the last positions, which does not make any sense to me. I mean, I could rank more or less clearly which my favorite songs are, but I would not say that the accuracy is the same for positions #123 and #124, for example.

[jammindude]

Well...going by feel and not score.   

You could take BI's list and just flip/flop 1 and 4 for me.   But obviously this is all new, and the earlier material hasn't really settled in yet.  I'm just so obsessed with every note of The Mountain that I haven't been able to pull myself away long enough to absorb the other stuff.   And when I do, I'm just comparing it to The Mountain and being slightly let down, and then going back to The Mountain.   

[BlackInk]

Yeah, that does not seem an accurate calculation at all. Also, a movement in the first positions of the list counts the same as in the last positions, which does not make any sense to me. I mean, I could rank more or less clearly which my favorite songs are, but I would not say that the accuracy is the same for positions #123 and #124, for example.

I don't really understand the problem, could you explain?

[ariich]

What? Isn't Conner already playing with them? 

Oh yeah, totally forgot about that.

Yeah looks the setlist will be changed up a bit then - awesome!

[Estiui]

Yeah, that does not seem an accurate calculation at all. Also, a movement in the first positions of the list counts the same as in the last positions, which does not make any sense to me. I mean, I could rank more or less clearly which my favorite songs are, but I would not say that the accuracy is the same for positions #123 and #124, for example.

I don't really understand the problem, could you explain?

Of course. Imagine that, in Aquarius, your highest and lowest songs are #4 and #124. Now, imagine that these two songs change their rank to #3 and #125. In the end, the points will be the same, but I don't think that a change is the last positions (i.e. #124 to #125) has the same relevance as in the first ones (#4 to #3). Not only because of the meaning of the song (a highly ranked song should have, IMO, more relevance than a low one) but also because IMO, you won't mind a switch in positions #124 and #125 as much as you would in #3 and #4. Sorry about the explanation, hope I've been understandable now

[krands85]

So today marks the beginning of their 2014 tour. Wonder how the setlist will be shaped.

Will be seeing them at the "Baja Prog" festival, really excited  .

Only 1 UK date on this tour? 

[BlackInk]

Of course. Imagine that, in Aquarius, your highest and lowest songs are #4 and #124. Now, imagine that these two songs change their rank to #3 and #125. In the end, the points will be the same, but I don't think that a change is the last positions (i.e. #124 to #125) has the same relevance as in the first ones (#4 to #3). Not only because of the meaning of the song (a highly ranked song should have, IMO, more relevance than a low one) but also because IMO, you won't mind a switch in positions #124 and #125 as much as you would in #3 and #4. Sorry about the explanation, hope I've been understandable now

Absolutely, I understand your point now, although I semi-disagree with it. The top ones are of course more important than the lower ones, but that's sort of what I try to undo with my list. I want to give every song an equal chance, and I try to rank the 124th song as carefully as I would the 4th one. So yes, a move down with #124 and a move up with #5 would even each other out, which I find perfectly acceptable since I don't only want to judge the albums based on how good they are, but also how "bad" they are, so to speak..

[Estiui]

Of course. Imagine that, in Aquarius, your highest and lowest songs are #4 and #124. Now, imagine that these two songs change their rank to #3 and #125. In the end, the points will be the same, but I don't think that a change is the last positions (i.e. #124 to #125) has the same relevance as in the first ones (#4 to #3). Not only because of the meaning of the song (a highly ranked song should have, IMO, more relevance than a low one) but also because IMO, you won't mind a switch in positions #124 and #125 as much as you would in #3 and #4. Sorry about the explanation, hope I've been understandable now

Absolutely, I understand your point now, although I semi-disagree with it. The top ones are of course more important than the lower ones, but that's sort of what I try to undo with my list. I want to give every song an equal chance, and I try to rank the 124th song as carefully as I would the 4th one. So yes, a move down with #124 and a move up with #5 would even each other out, which I find perfectly acceptable since I don't only want to judge the albums based on how good they are, but also how "bad" they are, so to speak..

Well, that's a nice point of view. I just can't imagine myself ordering the last songs as carefully as the first ones, I guess I'm too lazy to do that 

I suppose that it would be easier for me to tell my favourite songs better than my less favourite ones.

[ariich]

I have to be honest, personally I find that scoring system to be absolutely bizarre. But each to their own.

[GasparXR]

Found the set list from last night! https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/haken/2014/snake-night-club-mexico-city-mexico-3bc26420.html

Doesn't look like any new live songs yet. I also wonder if they used The Path Unbeaten as an intro tape like usual? I also wonder if at some point they will play all of The Mountain + maybe an encore like they did on the Visions tour?

[Estiui]

Wow, that setlist seems pretty short, barely 90 minutes...   

[jammindude]

Wow, that setlist seems pretty short, barely 90 minutes...   

I total it at just over 80...and that's *including* the encore.    I agree that's pretty lame.

[Estiui]

I went to their show in Barcelona last Friday, what a show, and what a band. They played for two hours and totally fulfilled my expectations.

Also, I have to say that The Mountain has become my favourite album ever, overcoming Images & Words, which I thought would never happen. But I just simply enjoy each track and each note of this album, every song has its own moment and everything is beautiful. For me, it's the closest thing to a perfect album I've listened to.

[GasparXR]

https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/haken/2014/spirit-of-66-verviers-belgium-2bc3e806.html

Interesting, they played the entire album from start to finish! And dat encore...

[jammindude]

Now THAT is a bit more like it.   

Studio versions of these songs = The Mountain - 1 hr, 45 minutes from Visions, and the 17 minute epic from Aquarius.   That's a hair over two hours.   Much better than the one hour shows with a 20 minute encore like we were seeing before.

[krands85]

After months of trying to keep this quiet, we're extremely pleased to announce an extensive UK tour with none other than Leprous and Maschine later this year!!!!!!!!! Read more here:

Official press release:

Haken, Leprous & Maschine join forces for UK tour

InsideOutMusic is extremely pleased to announce that three of its youngest and brightest bands will join forces for a UK & Irish tour later this year. Haken, Leprous & Maschine will all head out on the road together in October & November 2014 for what will be the biggest run of UK dates that any band has yet embarked on, showcasing some of the younger progressive talent that InsideOut have to offer.

The dates are as follows:

Haken, Leprous & Maschine:
Presented by Prog Magazine
23rd October, 2014 – London, The Garage
24th October, 2014 – Leamington Spa, Assembly
26th October, 2014 – Bristol, The Fleece
27th October, 2014 – Wolverhampton, Robin 2
29th October, 2014 – Dublin, The Village
30th October, 2014 – Liverpool, O2 Academy 2
31st October, 2014 – Manchester, Club Academy
1st November, 2014 – Edinburgh, The Liquid Room
2nd November, 2014 – York, The Duchess

London-based progressive metallers Haken have been going from strength to strength following the release of latest album ‘The Mountain’, with Prog Magazine calling it ‘an absolute triumph, a celebration of all the prog world holds dear.’ The band had this to say about the upcoming dates: “We can't wait to get back on the road this October for our first UK tour! We'll be sharing the stage with incredible Leprous and Maschine - it's gonna be a blast. We'll be playing songs from our back catalogue with the possibility of showcasing some new material. We're looking forward to seeing you there.”

Norwegian heavy proggers Leprous last year released their latest album ‘Coal’ with Metal Hammer calling it ‘further proof that forward-thinking, technical metal is in a rude state of health.’ This tour will see the band play in many cities they have never visited before, and they comment:
"So finally we get the chance to do a more extensive tour in the UK! It's a territory we've wanted to explore for a while and when we got the chance to the tour it with our very talented label mates Haken, the choice was easy. It will be our first shows ever in Ireland and Scotland, we will explore several new English cities and also be able to return to London again. Ever since I lived in England myself for a year (from 2009 - 2010), I've wanted to come back here for a proper tour! The nice thing about the UK, is that you have all these great cities in very close distance to each other! Which means less driving and more playing! We promise a very intense show, and hope to see as many as possible of our UK fans at the shows."

Brighton-based young progressive rockers Maschine released their impressive debut album ‘Rubidium’ last August, and this run of dates will mark the band’s first major tour. Classic Rock picked up on them, calling them ‘very promising indeed’, and the band have been voted Prog Magazine’s best new band. The bands leader Luke Machin says this:
“Maschine are massively pleased to be a part of this tour as each band are certain to bring something special for every one of these live shows. We will be performing tracks from our debut album ‘Rubidium’ and will also be looking forward to road testing some new material.”

  I'll definitely be heading through to see them in Edinburgh. Don't know anything about the other 2 bands, but I hope Haken play a decent length of set.

[ariich]

Awesome, I love Leprous! Pretty sure I'll be at the London show then.

[Onno]

Man, I wish I could come to the UK for that

[Dr. DTVT]

Leprous is awesome.  Lucky limey bastards.

[Ben_Jamin]

Nice, Shapeshifter is my fav.

[Sacul]

Conner Green confirmed as permanent bassist.

[ariich]

Indeed, great stuff. He was fantastic when I saw them the other week.

By the way, hilarious half-hour tour diary from them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD1waw3qKSM

[GasparXR]

That was a great video. Loved the part with Charlie and Ray brushing their teeth, as well as the obnoxious train horn. Also, what the fuck was with Ray sliding into the room and back out again? I laughed the hardest at that part because of how random it was.