Author Topic: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years  (Read 38659 times)

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Offline orcus116

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #140 on: September 04, 2010, 07:25:53 PM »
Without Dream Theater, there'd probably be no Symphony X, Shadow Gallery, Pain of Salvation, Ayreon, Vaden Plas

:lol

What a fuckin' tragedy.

Offline Fluffy Lothario

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #141 on: September 04, 2010, 07:45:47 PM »
I just can't buy into that last sentence. I'd be kidding myself if I wanted to believe that Dream Theater influenced anyone outside of a handful of select bands, let alone change the course of an entire genre. Yeah they used to fuse technicality and metal in a very interesting direction but they hadn't really made an attempt at a truer metal song until "The Glass Prison" and aside from that song they haven't done anything of merit with that combo since. Very few of their metal riffs from that point have honestly wowed me to the point where I thought they were pushing new ground. If you want to talk about how they were instrumental in bringing technicality to the stage to elevate metal there are a lot of technical death metal bands my roommate has shown me that demonstrate more technical and theoretical approach to pure metal than Dream Theater has. Granted they're not my cup of tea and DT is much more tasteful in their approach but they are by no means close to the technical limit you're saying they pioneered compared to some other bands whose sole aim is to see how far they can push music theory.
Okay, I wasn't going to get into this discussion, since I like little metal from the last decade, but now I'm a little too interested.

Just because DT's metal wasn't that chunk and balls and there were bands who pushed technicality further doesn't mean DT's influence on metal in terms of technicality can't be that high. They were simply a band which a good audience latched onto in that respect. I used to read a lot of metal mags; I remember the article hyping Mastodon's Remission, and A7X's second album, the one before City of Evil. Both times, they asked the band five albums which, combined, influence their sound. Both bands said Images and Words. In fact, it was interesting how often they were mentioned by bands you'd never think would associate with them.

I mean, look at '90s metal. The early nineties was the "dumbing down" and commercialising of thrash, and groove metal, and the late nineties was nu-metal. That's only looking at the major trends, but just like in rock, the nineties weren't good times for much of any overly great display of technicality in metal. The focus on how well you could play your instrument rose very obviously in 00s metal, even in your everyday, not trying to be extremely technical bands. Compare Korn with A7X. Compare White Zombie with Trivium. A lot of thrash bands have gone from slowed-down metal and hard rock experiments back to their more signature thrash. The fact that DT were there at all during the nineties doing prog metal with a half decent audience... I just think they very likely had quite an influence on the swing back in that direction, even if it's more of a latent influence. Which means their influence goes far further than just your prog/power metal copycats, it's arguably across the entire genre.

Offline skydivingninja

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #142 on: September 04, 2010, 07:51:39 PM »
Indeed.

And a comment on one of PC's points: I don't think DT had anything to do with Opeth being "progressive."  They've been doing the heavy/light contrast since Orchid, and Mikael's love of classic prog and Porcupine Tree is well known.  Cynic's debut came out a year after Images and Words, but the band had been together since the late 80s.  I understand the point of BTBAM though, I'm sure they look up to DT.  All those other bands you mentioned?  Yeah, DT had a part to play.  With the exception of PoS, the influence is really blatant.

@Fluffy: Didn't know that about Mastodon at all.  They never mention DT, while Genesis, Neurosis, and the Melvins are always mentioned in their interviews.  This just got me thinking about a Mastodon/DT co-headlining tour  :omg:

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #143 on: September 04, 2010, 08:09:26 PM »
Without Dream Theater, there'd probably be no Symphony X, Shadow Gallery, Pain of Salvation, Ayreon, Vaden Plas

:lol

What a fatal tragedy.

fixed.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #144 on: September 04, 2010, 08:13:11 PM »
nugget'd

Offline MetalManiac666

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #145 on: September 04, 2010, 11:24:07 PM »
This just got me thinking about a Mastodon/DT co-headlining tour  :omg:

*smilees in pants*

Offline Arcaeus

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #146 on: September 05, 2010, 02:50:22 AM »
Without Dream Theater, there'd probably be no Symphony X, Shadow Gallery, Pain of Salvation, Ayreon, Vaden Plas

I wanted to ignore this, but it's bugging me. I can see how Dream Theater influenced the likes of bands like Shadow Gallery and Vanden Plas (who are derivative and while not bad, nothing special), but why do I always see people suggesting that Pain of Salvation wouldn't exist without Dream Theater? Daniel Gildenlöw has stated he doesn't like progressive metal and the last album he even bought from the genre was Awake, so any influence would end there. Pain of Salvation always seemed more influenced by alternative metal akin to the likes of Faith No More (who are one of DG's favorite bands) and while there's obvious progressive elements in their earlier albums none of it ever screamed "DT" to me.

Sorry, not related to the thread, just a minor annoyance.

Offline wolfking

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #147 on: September 05, 2010, 03:29:46 AM »
Without Dream Theater, there'd probably be no Symphony X, Shadow Gallery, Pain of Salvation, Ayreon, Vaden Plas.

This comment is bullshit.  Please find attached links of websites stating these artists influences;

Arjen A. Lucassen (Ayreon) - https://www.arjenlucassen.com/aal/aa_biography.html (DT not mentioned)

Michael Romeo (Symphony X) -  https://www.symphonyx.com/michael_romeo.html (DT not mentioned)

Gary Wehrkamp (Shadow gallery) - https://www.ram.org/music/articles/wehrkampinterview.html (DT mentioned along with a lot of other artists.)

Vanden Plas - https://www.vandenplas.de/interview_stephan_2001.php (DT are mentioned along with other bands.)

Pain of Salvation - Anyone who thinks these guys would not exist without DT, haven't really sat down and listened to them.  Anyone can hear the 70's rock, alternative rock, 70's prog influences in their music.  These guys are beyond DT musically.
 
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #148 on: September 05, 2010, 03:47:56 AM »
You're a nutcase if you think Symphony X weren't influenced by Dream Theater.

Whether Dream Theater influenced any of those bands directly is beyond the point, though. The point is, if it weren't for Dream Theater making progressive music (relatively) cool again, I wonder if bands like Shadow Gallery, Pain of Salvation, and Symphony X would even have had nice creative outlets like "Inside Out" willing to fund their music.

Offline Portrucci

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #149 on: September 05, 2010, 03:49:24 AM »
I don't think they were SIGNIFICANTLY influenced by Dream Theate at all. I can here neoclassical guitar influence, maybe even some Pantera. But nope, not really any DT. Care to elaborate on these glaring implications of influence?
on par with the anguish one would have from getting unconsensually bent over and buttloved.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #150 on: September 05, 2010, 03:54:48 AM »
I don't think they were SIGNIFICANTLY influenced by Dream Theate at all. I can here neoclassical guitar influence, maybe even some Pantera. But nope, not really any DT. Care to elaborate on these glaring implications of influence?
They've toured with them several times. They've been spotted at Dream Theater shows in New Jersey. Them moving from generic metal to progressive metal almost directly correlates with Dream Theater's success. And, oh yeah, they kind of sound like them, too! ;D

Offline Portrucci

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #151 on: September 05, 2010, 04:00:31 AM »
I don't think they were SIGNIFICANTLY influenced by Dream Theate at all. I can here neoclassical guitar influence, maybe even some Pantera. But nope, not really any DT. Care to elaborate on these glaring implications of influence?
They've toured with them several times. They've been spotted at Dream Theater shows in New Jersey. Them moving from generic metal to progressive metal almost directly correlates with Dream Theater's success. And, oh yeah, they kind of sound like them, too! ;D
Yeah that's a pretty weak argument. I think the move to their style of progressive metal was inevitable, as it's a natural progression looking at their discography. I'm sure they picked up a few pointers from DT (perhaps the incorporation of odd time signatures, I've give you that). But as a whole the bands aren't that similar at all. Looking at The Divine Wings of Tragedy (album)....I can't really any DT stuff to compare it to. The title track put against say A Change of Seasons. Yeah, they are both progressive metal and epic in length. But the approach is completely different.
on par with the anguish one would have from getting unconsensually bent over and buttloved.

Offline wolfking

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #152 on: September 05, 2010, 04:03:36 AM »
You're a nutcase if you think Symphony X weren't influenced by Dream Theater.

Whether Dream Theater influenced any of those bands directly is beyond the point, though. The point is, if it weren't for Dream Theater making progressive music (relatively) cool again, I wonder if bands like Shadow Gallery, Pain of Salvation, and Symphony X would even have had nice creative outlets like "Inside Out" willing to fund their music.

You are giving DT way too much credit.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline Zook

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #153 on: September 05, 2010, 05:24:22 AM »
I love Symphony X but come on now. Listen to The Death of Balance. If you can't hear DT and even a particular song, you need a cat scan or something.

Offline Bombardana

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #154 on: September 05, 2010, 05:26:33 AM »
How did Dream Theater arrive at their prog metal style? They tried mixing together prog and metal. Plenty of other bands did this (and to an extent, still do), and aren't at all influenced by Dream Theater. I read through some of the messages in this thread and I can't believe how hugely overstated Dream Theater's influence is. And you wonder why people think prog fans are arrogant...

edit: I bet the people saying "x sounds like Dream Theater" are just people who first discovered progressive metal through Dream Theater, same way when someone new discovers Metallica they think loads of other metal also sounds like Metallica.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 05:32:52 AM by Bombardana »

Offline Portrucci

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #155 on: September 05, 2010, 05:28:40 AM »
I love Symphony X but come on now. Listen to The Death of Balance. If you can't hear DT and even a particular song, you need a cat scan or something.
That's one song  :lol Not really strong enough for the whole argument. But that song I can definitely see the similarity (in particular the main riff is like The Mirror).
on par with the anguish one would have from getting unconsensually bent over and buttloved.

Offline In The Wake Of Poseidon

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #156 on: September 05, 2010, 05:30:59 AM »
Dude, Symphony X is most definitely influenced by Dream Theater. I mean hell, they are pretty much friends with each other now and days. Mike Portnoy showed up to their concerts, they tour together, both part of the early progressive metal scene.

Offline Bombardana

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #157 on: September 05, 2010, 05:34:51 AM »
Dude, Symphony X is most definitely influenced by Dream Theater. I mean hell, they are pretty much friends with each other now and days. Mike Portnoy showed up to their concerts, they tour together, both part of the early progressive metal scene.
So DT influenced SX just because they are friends within the same music scene, and they go to each others concerts? yahuh. ::)

Offline Portrucci

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #158 on: September 05, 2010, 05:38:21 AM »
Dude, Symphony X is most definitely influenced by Dream Theater. I mean hell, they are pretty much friends with each other now and days. Mike Portnoy showed up to their concerts, they tour together, both part of the early progressive metal scene.
Naturally there will be some influence...but would Symphony X exist without Dream Theater? I think it probably would. Like I said, the main influences I hear on their style is the neoclassical virtuoso's of the 80s and Pantera-esque riffs and drums. Maybe the presence of DT allowed them to gain more popularity than they would have, but no way DT is the main influence on SX. I just can't see it.
on par with the anguish one would have from getting unconsensually bent over and buttloved.

Offline In The Wake Of Poseidon

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #159 on: September 05, 2010, 05:42:14 AM »
Dude, Symphony X is most definitely influenced by Dream Theater. I mean hell, they are pretty much friends with each other now and days. Mike Portnoy showed up to their concerts, they tour together, both part of the early progressive metal scene.
So DT influenced SX just because they are friends within the same music scene, and they go to each others concerts? yahuh. ::)
Umm yeah. People are naturally influenced by their friends believe it or not. Especially if your friend laid down the foundations for progressive metal.

Offline Bombardana

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #160 on: September 05, 2010, 05:43:59 AM »
Dude, Symphony X is most definitely influenced by Dream Theater. I mean hell, they are pretty much friends with each other now and days. Mike Portnoy showed up to their concerts, they tour together, both part of the early progressive metal scene.
So DT influenced SX just because they are friends within the same music scene, and they go to each others concerts? yahuh. ::)
Umm yeah. People are naturally influenced by their friends believe it or not. Especially if your friend laid down the foundations for progressive metal.
In that case it's totally justified to say that Dream Theater were in turn influenced by Symphony X. Would you accept that?

Offline Portrucci

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #161 on: September 05, 2010, 05:46:08 AM »
I can see Porcupine Tree, post In Absentia had some influence from the metal of Opeth (as they are very close friends). Is Opeth a major influence for Porcupine Tree? Nope, I wouldn't say so. Some little influence may exist, but certainly when bands have been pretty much operating in the same period, I don't see how one can have such a significant influence on the other.
on par with the anguish one would have from getting unconsensually bent over and buttloved.

Offline In The Wake Of Poseidon

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #162 on: September 05, 2010, 05:46:46 AM »
Dude, Symphony X is most definitely influenced by Dream Theater. I mean hell, they are pretty much friends with each other now and days. Mike Portnoy showed up to their concerts, they tour together, both part of the early progressive metal scene.
So DT influenced SX just because they are friends within the same music scene, and they go to each others concerts? yahuh. ::)
Umm yeah. People are naturally influenced by their friends believe it or not. Especially if your friend laid down the foundations for progressive metal.
In that case it's totally justified to say that Dream Theater were in turn influenced by Symphony X. Would you accept that?
Yes.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #163 on: September 05, 2010, 06:04:42 AM »
In this thread, people think being influenced means becoming a carbon-copy of the influencer. Sheesh.

How did Dream Theater arrive at their prog metal style? They tried mixing together prog and metal. Plenty of other bands did this (and to an extent, still do), and aren't at all influenced by Dream Theater.

And weren't, at all, as influential as Dream Theater.  Or weren't as progressive.

I read through some of the messages in this
edit: I bet the people saying "x sounds like Dream Theater" are just people who first discovered progressive metal through Dream Theater, same way when someone new discovers Metallica they think loads of other metal also sounds like Metallica.

Guess again.

You are giving DT way too much credit.

Maybe, but I still can't think of a band that deserve the place more than DT.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 06:30:26 AM by Perpetual Change »

Offline Bombardana

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #164 on: September 05, 2010, 08:37:54 AM »
In this thread, people think being influenced means becoming a carbon-copy of the influencer. Sheesh.
In this thread, people think Dream Theater forming a few years earlier automatically means they influenced later bands. Sheesh.

And weren't, at all, as influential as Dream Theater.  Or weren't as progressive.
Dream Theater were only particularly influential to the carbon-copy bands. Most (better) prog metal bands took influence from the entire prog scene, and music beyond. Dream Theater aren't even THAT progressive by todays standards.

Offline Fluffy Lothario

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #165 on: September 05, 2010, 08:57:52 AM »
In this thread, people think being influenced means becoming a carbon-copy of the influencer. Sheesh.
In this thread, people think Dream Theater forming a few years earlier automatically means they influenced later bands. Sheesh.
Regardless of whether bands are trying to directly replicate their sound or not, being there at all, with something of an audience, doing something that most relatively popular metal bands in the nineties weren't doing, i.e. proudly displaying technicality, means there's a higher chance it was them, alongside a nostalgia for older bands, that inspired the shift in trends. All a musician has to do is hear them and like what they're doing and wish there was more of something like that today (read: not necessarily exactly the same thing) and it starts things rolling. I'm not saying they're the sole band that caused this, but I'm saying I wouldn't write off the chance they were one of the bands, especially when, as I said, I used to see a lot of bands namedrop them for making them appreciate that sort of thing.

Offline Seventh Son

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #166 on: September 05, 2010, 12:21:37 PM »
Dream Theater's influence sure is serious business huh
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Offline Moonchild

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #167 on: September 05, 2010, 03:22:05 PM »
Dream Theater's influence sure is serious business huh
It derailed the entire topic.

Linkin Park because it sold more. Even though you might not call it metal, to my knowledge nu metal is a subgenre of metal.

I win.

Offline Zantera

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #168 on: September 05, 2010, 04:35:28 PM »
Looking back at things now, sure Dream Theater is considered being pioneers because of the mix of progressive-music and metal.
Maybe they weren't the first band doing it, but they did it better then many other groups, and as a result they became the 'gods' of progressive-metal.
But saying stuff like "without DT x wouldn't exist" doesn't make any sense either, because if DT wouldn't have made that breakthrough for the progressive-metal scene, someone else would have.


Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #169 on: September 05, 2010, 04:36:56 PM »
Dream Theater were only particularly influential to the carbon-copy bands. Most (better) prog metal bands took influence from the entire prog scene, and music beyond. Dream Theater aren't even THAT progressive by todays standards.

That's like saying Metallica were only influential to their carbon-copy bands, when they were influential to bands like Dream Theater, too.

Offline ehra

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #170 on: September 05, 2010, 04:44:21 PM »
But saying stuff like "without DT x wouldn't exist" doesn't make any sense either, because if DT wouldn't have made that breakthrough for the progressive-metal scene, someone else would have.

It also doesn't make sense because that means that if this thread were about bands of the past, say, 40 years, then we would have to call the bands that influenced DT the best. But then what about the bands that influenced them?

This is why I never was particularly fond of judging bands based on how influential, because then you have to start considering the bands that influenced the bands that ended up influencing future bands. Madness!

Offline Adami

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #171 on: September 05, 2010, 04:46:34 PM »
Disturbed are the greatest metal band of the last twenty years.


There, argue about that for a while. Jesus.
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Offline Gadough

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #172 on: September 05, 2010, 04:47:28 PM »
There's nothing to argue about. That's an absolute fact.
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Offline Zook

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #173 on: September 05, 2010, 06:41:34 PM »
Iced Earth because I feel sorry for Jon Schaffer.

Offline ThroughHerEyesDude6

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Re: Best Metal Band of the Past 20 Years
« Reply #174 on: September 06, 2010, 11:22:07 PM »
There's nothing to argue about. That's an absolute fact.

I agree entirely.