Loudness War

[seasonsinthesky]

I'm considering getting the vinyl becasue the CD has a DRM of 4 and the Vinyl is 10 so....Yeah.

I understand that, but you have to keep in mind vinyl DR ratings are false. This isn't to say it's not more dynamic – I'm sure it is! – just that DR10 isn't actually true. Because it's recorded from playback and then digitized to get the DR analysis, the entire process involved in doing so irreparably changes the DR; everything from the actual source (which has the actual DR) to the mastering prep, cutting engineer, and vinyl manufacturer to the playback deck, recording interface, and input levels alter the picture of the thing. You'll get somewhere close, of course, but it could be entire DR steps off from the actual reading. So many records are pressed from straight playback of the CD nowadays (like the recent Meshuggah boxset) that everyone just assumes the vinyl will sound better when it often is placebo.

[hefdaddy42]

All opinions.   

I get that there are some records that it is an element that diminishes the pleasure, but for the most part, if the artist wants/allows it that way, then that's the way it's supposed to be heard.   To me, saying "OH! It's too LOUD! It SUCKS!" is no different than saying "OH! It's got too much KAZOO!  It SUCKS!". 

And the "if you don't hear it, you're [insert appropriate insult]" is possibly the worst argument ever.

*Stares blankly*

If i say the sky appears blue for scientific reasons is that also just an opinion?
What about that we breath air?
Compression isn't an argument, it's a scientific fact.

Recording technology is a scientific fact, not an opinion.
We record sounds onto devices that have a limited spectrum for capture.
...

Unless you want to treat this like pro abortion vs pro life... *shakes head*
I can tell you i think pro-lifers are uneducated hicks from the woods.
Then you can tell me that's an opinion and you'd be right
it's still kind of like arguing about how your god is better than my god.

Honestly, if you're going to be pro life, stop eating meat, and stop buying products made by slave labor for  a start, and then get back to me about the validity of your position.

Is pro-compression vs not compression honestly a thing?
*head explodes* *can't ... comprehend...*

( I get what you're saying about artistic expression, but given the nature of compression that should be a rare exception, not a genre crossing plague...)

Calm down.  No reason to get this worked up. We don't need that here. 

[Stadler]

My favourite thing is when people say they don't hear anything wrong with Death Magnetic so we're all just making it up.


The new Green Day isn't as fuzzy as Death Magnetic but when everyone is on full blast - it actually hurts to listen to in headphones.

I'm considering getting the vinyl becasue the CD has a DRM of 4 and the Vinyl is 10 so....Yeah.

But do you get my point?  I can't speak for everyone, but I HEAR it, that's not the problem.  The problem is that I don't agree that it is "wrong".   It's the same as the difference between saying "I don't hear any soloing in Yngvie's songs" versus "Yngvie's soloing is WRONG" versus "I don't like Yngvie's style of playing".    Except in the most egregious cases (Vapor Trails is a great example) I don't at all buy the argument that it is somehow "wrong".  You're not going to convince me that some of the bands accused of the "loudness war" - Rush, Led Zeppelin, Oasis - don't have enough pull and clout at this stage of their career to say "Nope, not releasing it that way. Sorry, boss.".

It makes zero logical sense.

[KevShmev]

Stadler, that seems like a bizarre argument you are making, which is, "The band wanted it to sound that way, so it is fine," when, no, more often than not, it is not.  I get that Rush wanted Vapor Trails to sound like it did, for the most part, but that doesn't change the fact that it sounded like a noisy mess when released in 2002.  Whether it's wrong or not is largely irrelevant; it is deeply flawed, and it is nearly impossible to argue otherwise, especially when you look at certain albums on those sites that show dynamic range and all that jazz.

[Kotowboy]

Mostly it's the label that wants it louder and the band have no say.

[Stadler]

Stadler, that seems like a bizarre argument you are making, which is, "The band wanted it to sound that way, so it is fine," when, no, more often than not, it is not.  I get that Rush wanted Vapor Trails to sound like it did, for the most part, but that doesn't change the fact that it sounded like a noisy mess when released in 2002.  Whether it's wrong or not is largely irrelevant; it is deeply flawed, and it is nearly impossible to argue otherwise, especially when you look at certain albums on those sites that show dynamic range and all that jazz.

Actually, Vapor Trails is the one exception where the band came out and said it's NOT what we were looking for.   Geddy has been on record multiple times saying that Rush records are louder than HE PERSONALLY would prefer, but they are all in a range where the band has signed off on the sound, and that they COULD stop it if they wanted to.   VT was the exception because they were more interested in getting it out (remember the place that record has in the Rush chronology and what happened before) but that in hindsight that was a mistake.  Thus the remix.   

I couldn't give two fucks about "dynamic range" from the standpoint that it is not a "standard of quality" in and of itself.   Bands make compromises all the time (Rush again; notorious for not putting anything on a record they couldn't recreate live) and this is one of them.   Again, I cannot believe that you honestly are arguing that a guy like Springsteen or a band like U2 - that will record an entire album and scrap it because they don't like the way it sounds, that will make a big production about not letting someone use their song because it's "not the way they want their music to be heard", or won't put their music on iTunes/Spotify (now I'm talking about AC/DC) because it's "not the way they want their music to be heard" are going to marshal their baby through 99.8% of the process with loving care, then just completely and utterly ignore the mastering stage (which is where this alleged "problem" arises) and say "ooops, so be it!".   

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I've seen Loudness twice in the last few years and they still kick serious ass.  I don't know what all the fuss is about.

[bl5150]

Lock'n'Loll Clazy Night 


Every time I see The Survivor Thread I want to pop in and say "Eye of The Tiger roolz" 

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Lock'n'Loll Clazy Night 


Every time I see The Survivor Thread I want to pop in and say "Eye of The Tiger roolz" 

understandably.  You'd have one space covered on my Survivor Threadshitter Bingo!

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=19679.msg2167283#msg2167283

[Stadler]

Coz:  Delivering the goods since 2007. 

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

 

[Samsara]

Two great records that have been really hurt by the loudness war:

Alter Bridge - The Last Hero (squished all the life out of the songs)

Kyng - Breathe in the Water (one of the loudest I have ever heard)

I run a pretty high-end system in my car, and the Kyng record nearly destroyed my speakers. Just sucks. This needs to stop!

[mikeyd23]

Alter Bridge - The Last Hero (squished all the life out of the songs)

Ain't that the truth. Great record hindered by less-than-ideal mastering.

[Samsara]

Alter Bridge - The Last Hero (squished all the life out of the songs)

Ain't that the truth. Great record hindered by less-than-ideal mastering.

Kills me. I'm an Alter Bridge fanboy. I consider them basically the 2010 decade version of the original lineup of Queensryche, straddling that line between mainstream hard rock and metal with progressive tendencies. Love their catalog. But man, The Last Hero...ugh. damn it!!!

[Kotowboy]

Now I need to sample this album to see how bad it is.

I remember hearing that the Paul McCartney album Memory Almost Full was really squashed and rented it from my library and the first song or so has a mandolin on and it's really piercing.

It wasn't nice to listen to. You'd think Sir Paul would get the best sounding records.

[Stadler]

Now I need to sample this album to see how bad it is.

I remember hearing that the Paul McCartney album Memory Almost Full was really squashed and rented it from my library and the first song or so has a mandolin on and it's really piercing.

It wasn't nice to listen to. You'd think Sir Paul would get the best sounding records.

Well, it's the record company.    

This is my point; literally THE most legendary rock musician currently alive, and worth, literally, billions.  He could fart into a kazoo for 40 minutes, and SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE would release it, if not himself on his own label.  And HE doesn't have the pull to have a record that someone in their mom's basement with a  DR meter doesn't think is pristine?   Please.

But I'm waiting for the next argument:  He's deaf and doesn't know better.   

[rumborak]

Use of technology in audio production is like plastic surgery. If done well, nobody even knows and it enhances the end product. But, many many bands have no idea what's going on and end up sounding like the audio equivalent of Joan Rivers.

[KevShmev]

I don't buy the argument for a second that bands have no say so in what the labels do with their records.  Sorry, but no.  Rush is on record as having complete control over their music since 2112, and I doubt they would have given up control in that area. Same for artists like U2 and McCartney, who are so ridiculously popular that I have a hard time believing that they cannot call the shots 100%.  When a band/artist is that popular and their records don't sound great, that is on them, not the label.

[Adami]

Now I need to sample this album to see how bad it is.

I remember hearing that the Paul McCartney album Memory Almost Full was really squashed and rented it from my library and the first song or so has a mandolin on and it's really piercing.

It wasn't nice to listen to. You'd think Sir Paul would get the best sounding records.

Well, it's the record company.    

This is my point; literally THE most legendary rock musician currently alive, and worth, literally, billions.  He could fart into a kazoo for 40 minutes, and SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE would release it, if not himself on his own label.  And HE doesn't have the pull to have a record that someone in their mom's basement with a  DR meter doesn't think is pristine?   Please.

But I'm waiting for the next argument:  He's deaf and doesn't know better. 

If I can use a movie example, I'll go with X-Men Origins: Wolverine. One of the most popular characters of the past 16 years, even at that point. Even if you want to say that the terrible script, terrible acting, terrible story and terrible directing was exactly what the people involved wanted, no argument can be made for the horrible special effects. That was the case of everyone having the means of doing exactly what they want do do, but still screwing it up royally.

[Kotowboy]

Use of technology in audio production is like plastic surgery. If done well, nobody even knows and it enhances the end product. But, many many bands have no idea what's going on and end up sounding like the audio equivalent of Joan Rivers.

your new album.....

what is it ?

...it is just......

just what ?

................

[Orbert]

Spotify has apparently lowered both the overall and average volume of songs.  I don't know; I don't listen to Spotify or any other streaming service.  This article goes into some pretty good detail about volume perception and compression, and proclaims that it's the end of the Loudness Wars.  I'm not sure it's the end quite yet (other music services will need to follow suit, and the industry itself needs to react), but it's an important first step.

Link

[Ben_Jamin]

It'll end once they stop brickwalling albums up the butt.

Its funny listening to CD's from the mid '80's/'90's.
They're a lot quiter, I have to turn my volume level up quite a bit more to hear it the same level as the modern album before.

[Orbert]

It'll end once they stop brickwalling albums up the butt.

Well, that's the idea.  If Spotify and other music streaming services put modulators in place to keep volume consistent, then making any given song or album louder will have no effect; it will still play at the same volume as anything else.  The hope is that the industry, once they figure out that compressing the hell out of albums doesn't make any difference (other than making the music sound like shit), will stop doing it.  That's why I said it's not the end of the loudness war, but an important first step.

[me7]

I just hope they do it in an album basis and not per song. Since we're on a DT forum, think of Wait for Sleep that is deliberately 5dB quieter than the rest of the Images and Words. Gaining the album per track would make WfS stick out as too loud.