Loudness War

[7StringedBeast]

What I have been doing with my mixes lately has been to leave a lot of headroom going into the mastering stages.  Working in 24bit, I keep the master pumping around -12dB.  This gives me a lot of room to add compression if i want it for the effects but not to make it too loud and turn to mush.  Cause I always have the option to raise volume naturally with the fader.  I find that giving a song headroom, preserves the acoustic space of the recording.  It also lets your speakers do more of the work of making something loud than the actual recording.  This way, if you have great speakers you really get to hear them work.

When something is over compressed it definitely makes everything all mashed together when its also too loud.  Extreme compression can sound good when used right, like not using a limiter.  Or blending a limited/eqd track with the original dynamic track for the best of both worlds.

Put  in I&W and crank that sucker.  Then put in Black clouds.  You will hear a significant difference in the quality of the recording/mixing.  I&W will sound punchy and clear and you will hear the acoustics of the song.  While Black Clouds will sound grating to the ear and all around too loud and compressed.  Try it out for yourselves.

[ariich]

Try it out for yourselves.

I've listened to both, at different volumes, on different forms of player (stereo, iPod, etc).

I much prefer the production on BC&SL.

[7StringedBeast]

Try it out for yourselves.

I've listened to both, at different volumes, on different forms of player (stereo, iPod, etc).

I much prefer the production on BC&SL.

I'm not talking about the production as much as I am the relationship between all the instruments and the lack of space between them in BCSL.  The clarity and distinction of I&W is a lot better.  Whether or not you like that is totally up to you.

[Perpetual Change]

I actually first noticed this with Fates Warning's Parallels. I cranked that sucker one day, and man, it really does sound good. Even though it was a remaster.

[emindead]

Yea, but if you put the remasters together, it makes a picture of Eddie....

It's only with the remasters that you get the picture of Eddie from Killers? I thought it was with the original pressing.

[RobD]

Yea, but if you put the remasters together, it makes a picture of Eddie....

It's only with the remasters that you get the picture of Eddie from Killers? I thought it was with the original pressing.

It's the original Eddie from the debut album. I think somewhere around 7th Son and Fear of The Dark one of them is the wrong way round, so you have to have it facing the other way to get the full picture.

[Perpetual Change]

I'm gonna buy an original pressing of Somewhere in Time, and if I don't like it, I'm going to let you know.

I gotta say though, some Remasters are fantastic. Some of those early albums converted to CDs sound really terrible. Like any of the first printing of Yes' discography. The remasters are just so much better sounding.

[PixelDream]

I remember sitting down with 'Death Magnetic' for the first time, not having a clue that it completely brickwalled. When the distorted guitars and drums came in, I was impressed: Wow, Metallica sounds heavy again. Then something weird happened. When I was at track 3, I just couldn't stand it anymore. I couldn't take it, it's painful.

Listening to '...And Justice for All' now (the track). Awesome! I'd rather have no bass than a headache.

[RobD]

I'm gonna buy an original pressing of Somewhere in Time, and if I don't like it, I'm going to let you know.

The main thing noticeable on it is the drums. They sound so much nicer and more like Nicko on the original.

[Zook]

If it wasn't for that damn Eddie picture I probably wouldn't own Maiden's 90s crapfest. Damn my collectorness.

[ariich]

Try it out for yourselves.

I've listened to both, at different volumes, on different forms of player (stereo, iPod, etc).

I much prefer the production on BC&SL.

I'm not talking about the production as much as I am the relationship between all the instruments and the lack of space between them in BCSL.  The clarity and distinction of I&W is a lot better.  Whether or not you like that is totally up to you.

I don't understand, the clarity and distinction of different instruments is excellent on BC&SL (the only minor issue being the bass a little too low in the mix for a lot of it, but that has nothing to do with the mastering or compression). I honestly cannot see what people have against the sound on that album.

[Perpetual Change]

Try it out for yourselves.

I've listened to both, at different volumes, on different forms of player (stereo, iPod, etc).

I much prefer the production on BC&SL.

I'm not talking about the production as much as I am the relationship between all the instruments and the lack of space between them in BCSL.  The clarity and distinction of I&W is a lot better.  Whether or not you like that is totally up to you.

I don't understand, the clarity and distinction of different instruments is excellent on BC&SL (the only minor issue being the bass a little too low in the mix for a lot of it, but that has nothing to do with the mastering or compression). I honestly cannot see what people have against the sound on that album.

Here's another thing I don't get. If you play Black Clouds on full volume, and Images and Words on full volume, of course it's going to sound worse. Because Black Clouds is louder! That doesn't mean there's less clarity, it just means that maybe you should play the album at half or three quarters volume, instead, and save full volume for when you're listening to the iPod on the train.

[PixelDream]

For a modern metal album in these times, BC&SL sounds quite good actually. Why is everyone using BC&SL as an example? Because it's their latest? SC sounds a lot worse, it has no depth to the sound at all.

[TL]

Black Clouds is mastered pretty well. If someone wanted an example of a DT album that wasn't as well mastered (aside from WDADU), SC would be a better choice.

[Perpetual Change]

To be honest, I've never known the loudness war to be an issue for anything other than your usual Top 40 artists and those trying to break into the Top 40.

[7StringedBeast]

I think SC holds together much better both in mastering and mix.  BCSL just sounds to squished together.  none of the instruments have any breathing room.  It also to me has the worst sounding drums out of all the albums. 

[Perpetual Change]

I think SC holds together much better both in mastering and mix.  BCSL just sounds to squished together.  none of the instruments have any breathing room.  It also to me has the worst sounding drums out of all the albums. 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks BC&SL was a step down from SC. Sure, Systematic Chaos was loud. But it sounded great. Black Clouds sounds good too, but they decided to scale it back in the oddest ways.

[Groundhog]

Try it out for yourselves.

I've listened to both, at different volumes, on different forms of player (stereo, iPod, etc).

I much prefer the production on BC&SL.

I'm not talking about the production as much as I am the relationship between all the instruments and the lack of space between them in BCSL.  The clarity and distinction of I&W is a lot better.  Whether or not you like that is totally up to you.

I don't understand, the clarity and distinction of different instruments is excellent on BC&SL (the only minor issue being the bass a little too low in the mix for a lot of it, but that has nothing to do with the mastering or compression). I honestly cannot see what people have against the sound on that album.

Here's another thing I don't get. If you play Black Clouds on full volume, and Images and Words on full volume, of course it's going to sound worse. Because Black Clouds is louder! That doesn't mean there's less clarity, it just means that maybe you should play the album at half or three quarters volume, instead, and save full volume for when you're listening to the iPod on the train.

I'm not sure if I follow you Perpetual. Yes BC&SL sounds worse because it is louder. Using the volume knob has nothing to do with it. Playing it at three quarters volume wont make a difference in clarity, or make it on par with I&W. The latter has more clarity and distinction between the instruments.
Yes mixing defines how the instruments are heard, but even the best mix will be hindered with loud mastering. The more dynamic compression the more squished together the instruments are, thus they are harder to differentiate.

[Gadough]

This whole loudness war dealio doesn't bother me nearly as much as it appears to bother everyone else. I really couldn't care less about how loud an album is. I'm not much of an audiophile.

[Groundhog]

^^ Consider yourselves lucky. 

Yeah, I know I must seem obsessive... and that I am. Just can't help it. Once you hear it, you cannot un-hear it.

[Perpetual Change]

At any given time, I can't hear what half the instruments on Images and Words are playing.

[BRGM]

You're a brave man 

[Perpetual Change]

Why? Myung's no more present than he is on any other CD, probably less so than many. And I can't hear anything other than Portnoy's kick and triggered snare most of the time. Moore's also unfairly buried in a few areas. Love how Shirley brought him out on the remasters.

[BRGM]

hmm, okay...Well I have no idea, I thought there would be a couple of ppl being like  "I&W=awesome in anyway possible"

[King Postwhore]

At any given time, I can't hear what half the instruments on Images and Words are playing.

Ths is a fail of the highest order.

[Perpetual Change]

At any given time, I can't hear what half the instruments on Images and Words are playing.

Ths is a fail of the highest order.

Yes, on Prater's part 

[Groundhog]

I find it easy to follow all the individual instruments on I&W.

That said it would be interesting to have Kevin Shirley re-mix the whole album without ******* up the dynamics by compressing the hell out of them like on GH.

[Perpetual Change]

The only place where I think Shirley messes up the mix is the bass. It's non-existant. Otherwise, I prefer the GH versions of those songs. I don't see how their note dynamic.

If anything, though, Prater made some good decisions. He hid the flaws of those songs very well.

[RedAkerston]

It drives me absolutely INSANE. And no, Dream Theater is not OKAY. The wave form on every album going back to and (broadly) including Awake spends more time with it's head smashed up against the wall than it does breathing properly. When you tap to music, you tap to it, you don't smash your head against the wall so hard your skull breaks in half and then occasionally pull it back ever so briefly so you can smash it into the wall again.

Ok, well, that would be an epic metal kind of thing, but then you'd be dead. : |

And yes, the difference can be heard, SIGNIFICANTLY.
If you can't tell, then your ears aren't working right.

I generally avoid studio albums at all costs after about 1995. If there's a vinyl rip available online i'll check that out. Otherwise it has to be bootlegs because frankly, at least the fans know how to not brickwall something most of the time... unless the radio station did it before hand in the case of a broadcast.

I'll grant you, if faced between lossy formats and brickwalling ... well, i don't even know. My head has spent so much time being smashed against the brick wall it's a miracle i'm still alive.

How is Amazon/Apple still charging 99 cents per track for the musical equivalent of a 1950's black and white TV broadcast in the era of HD? ...I'd never waste my money on that or contribute to it.

Artists should and do deserve to be paid for their music, but what do you expect out of me when the far superior copy of your music is the pirated copy? ...

Being that, i actually did buy DT's albums... all of them, but they're all junked in a box somewhere despite the fact i have a couple hundred of their tracks on my playlist.

As for what brought me to this old topic, well, i was just reflecting on the Six Degrees album, which has a VERY thin live culture, along with, Scenes. That whole period in DT history is infuriating, .. not because of the music quality, which was just superb, but because of the pains of trying to avoid the brickwall. Rough AUD tapes are nice for the completist perspective, but a good quality recording is really best.

The more mystifying thing is why artists who clearly have the intelligence to know better let this crap pass? DT for one has been in a position for many years to put up the stop sign to this kind of garbage. Rush is also especially bad, although at least they kind of wised up and remixed some of their later material after the fact.

This crap is not ok. It has never been ok.
If you want the music louder than you can crank it, GET A BETTER STEREO SYSTEM.
Smashing your head against the wall is not ok...

[Ben_Jamin]

For one, Record Labels. And two, sadly blame the music industry for it.

[KevShmev]

It's frustrating to think that so much of DT's music ought to sound better than it does.  When at a friend's last week hanging out, he had his DT playlist cranked up (he is big on making super duper playlists for many of his favorites artists), and when hearing so many of the songs in a row on random, it became so obvious which albums "sound" the best. The songs from I&W all sounded awesome, for example, and the Awake tunes all sounded really good, too.  On the flip side, while I've always thought 6DOIT was always one of their better post-90s sounding records, when Blind Faith came on, the drop-off in sound quality from the Images and Awake songs was very glaring.  He doesn't have much on the playlist from 2003-2009 (I think just Endless Sacrifice, Octavarium and maybe Count of Tuscany), so we didn't hear anything from that era, and none of the Mangini era songs he has on it played, so I was unable to compare those, although I am well aware that ADTOE is way too muddy.

[Stadler]

It drives me absolutely INSANE. And no, Dream Theater is not OKAY. The wave form on every album going back to and (broadly) including Awake spends more time with it's head smashed up against the wall than it does breathing properly. When you tap to music, you tap to it, you don't smash your head against the wall so hard your skull breaks in half and then occasionally pull it back ever so briefly so you can smash it into the wall again.

Ok, well, that would be an epic metal kind of thing, but then you'd be dead. : |

And yes, the difference can be heard, SIGNIFICANTLY.
If you can't tell, then your ears aren't working right.

I generally avoid studio albums at all costs after about 1995. If there's a vinyl rip available online i'll check that out. Otherwise it has to be bootlegs because frankly, at least the fans know how to not brickwall something most of the time... unless the radio station did it before hand in the case of a broadcast.

I'll grant you, if faced between lossy formats and brickwalling ... well, i don't even know. My head has spent so much time being smashed against the brick wall it's a miracle i'm still alive.

How is Amazon/Apple still charging 99 cents per track for the musical equivalent of a 1950's black and white TV broadcast in the era of HD? ...I'd never waste my money on that or contribute to it.

Artists should and do deserve to be paid for their music, but what do you expect out of me when the far superior copy of your music is the pirated copy? ...

Being that, i actually did buy DT's albums... all of them, but they're all junked in a box somewhere despite the fact i have a couple hundred of their tracks on my playlist.

As for what brought me to this old topic, well, i was just reflecting on the Six Degrees album, which has a VERY thin live culture, along with, Scenes. That whole period in DT history is infuriating, .. not because of the music quality, which was just superb, but because of the pains of trying to avoid the brickwall. Rough AUD tapes are nice for the completist perspective, but a good quality recording is really best.

The more mystifying thing is why artists who clearly have the intelligence to know better let this crap pass? DT for one has been in a position for many years to put up the stop sign to this kind of garbage. Rush is also especially bad, although at least they kind of wised up and remixed some of their later material after the fact.

This crap is not ok. It has never been ok.
If you want the music louder than you can crank it, GET A BETTER STEREO SYSTEM.
Smashing your head against the wall is not ok...

All opinions.   

I get that there are some records that it is an element that diminishes the pleasure, but for the most part, if the artist wants/allows it that way, then that's the way it's supposed to be heard.   To me, saying "OH! It's too LOUD! It SUCKS!" is no different than saying "OH! It's got too much KAZOO!  It SUCKS!". 

And the "if you don't hear it, you're [insert appropriate insult]" is possibly the worst argument ever. 

[RedAkerston]

All opinions.   

I get that there are some records that it is an element that diminishes the pleasure, but for the most part, if the artist wants/allows it that way, then that's the way it's supposed to be heard.   To me, saying "OH! It's too LOUD! It SUCKS!" is no different than saying "OH! It's got too much KAZOO!  It SUCKS!". 

And the "if you don't hear it, you're [insert appropriate insult]" is possibly the worst argument ever.

*Stares blankly*

[Kotowboy]

My favourite thing is when people say they don't hear anything wrong with Death Magnetic so we're all just making it up.


The new Green Day isn't as fuzzy as Death Magnetic but when everyone is on full blast - it actually hurts to listen to in headphones.

I'm considering getting the vinyl becasue the CD has a DRM of 4 and the Vinyl is 10 so....Yeah.

[PixelDream]

Alter Bridge's latest album is another victim of loudness war. Very tiring to listen to. A shame because I really like the music and I want to listen to it, but in the end the album just makes me and my ears tired.