Author Topic: Loudness War  (Read 19857 times)

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Offline OperantChamber

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Loudness War
« on: August 05, 2010, 07:31:42 PM »
Saw a couple of people talking about this in the DT forum. Discuss the loudness war!

https://thenumberoftheblog.com/2010/08/05/fucking-loud-and-fucking-clipped-metal-albums/

The Audacity Beta lets you see the clipping in the music waveform: https://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/
Been having fun with it, but it's sad to see with some albums.
Train of Thought looks great though.  ;D

Offline PixelDream

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2010, 07:39:31 PM »
I personally don't have problems with modern metal albums being a little loud and compressed. In my opinion, that compressed sound fits the music. Metallica's 'Death Magnetic' is taking it way too far though. The recording isn't that great, and it sounds like the mixing guy just took a pretty lame mix and just brickwalled it to make it sound 'heavy'. If you want to go heavy with compression, then do it the Chris (or Tom) Lord-Alge way. He mixes Green Day, Sevendust, MCR and a lot of modern rock/metal bands, and the sound is always great.

Another comparison: Muse's Absolution vs. The Resistance. Absolution sounds pretty good, but it is mastered so loud that the compression just takes the life out of the music at times. The Resistance is probably just as loud, if not louder. But the mix is crystal clear! Same with 10,000 Days, it's clipping like mad, but somehow it doesn't do any harm to the music at all.

Rule with hard rock/metal: Get it as loud as you possibly can without sacrificing the sound quality. That shouldn't be so difficult now would it?

« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 07:47:52 PM by PixelDream »
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Offline RobD

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2010, 07:56:18 PM »
^^^ Nailed it.

Most people wouldn't even hear the difference unless it's done badly (Death Magnetic) or used for effect (bass drops in The New Black).

There is however the matter of remasters. I did a blind comparison of original pressing Somewhere in Time and the 1998 remaster. Original sounds so much nicer to me, but then I'm the type of person that can pick out the drummer's chewing gum noise in a metal record so maybe that doesn't actually matter... :lol
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Offline PixelDream

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2010, 07:59:19 PM »
^^^ Nailed it.

Most people wouldn't even hear the difference unless it's done badly (Death Magnetic) or used for effect (bass drops in The New Black).

There is however the matter of remasters. I did a blind comparison of original pressing Somewhere in Time and the 1998 remaster. Original sounds so much nicer to me, but then I'm the type of person that can pick out the drummer's chewing gum noise in a metal record so maybe that doesn't actually matter... :lol

Indeed, remasters are usually not worth the trouble to buy anyway if you have the original, unless it's also a remix.

For example, the original master of Jeff Buckley's 'Grace' sounds a lot better and breathes a lot more than the remaster or the songs that ended up on 'So Real', his greatest hits album. The only cool thing about that greatest hits album is the liner notes, with musicians making statements about Buckley. I believe even Opeth's Peter Lindgren is in it!
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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2010, 10:09:56 PM »
Doesn't bother me at all.  I don't notice it at all unless I do a side by side comparison.  Gotta have a frame of reference.  If I listen to part of the original Death Magnetic and then the same part of one of the [unofficial] remasters, I certainly hear a big difference, but couldn't identify anything in particular that's different.  I tend to hear music, not waveforms.

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Online wolfking

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2010, 11:25:04 PM »
Here's a great video regarding Maiden's discography and the loudness war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMNJEC1G-fE
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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2010, 12:47:20 AM »
PixelDream summed up my thoughts perfectly. :tup

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Online Adami

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2010, 02:07:13 AM »
If you need audacity to notice if something is clipping, then it's not a big deal.

When I'm walking around listening to my Ipod, and have to drastically turn down my volume when any Death Magnetic song or Faceless (godsmack) song come on, then that's an obvious problem.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2010, 05:11:21 AM »
Here's a great video regarding Maiden's discography and the loudness war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMNJEC1G-fE

I don't know what to make of this video, because honestly, none of those albums are close to what I'd call overproduced.

Online wolfking

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2010, 05:15:56 AM »
Here's a great video regarding Maiden's discography and the loudness war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMNJEC1G-fE

I don't know what to make of this video, because honestly, none of those albums are close to what I'd call overproduced.

I think it's just showing you the way the loudness levels have overall increased over the years.

The only Maiden album I would call over compressed is Dance of Death, shit sounding record.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2010, 05:25:25 AM »
Call me crazy, but I still think Dance of Death sounds better than Seventh Son-FotD. Those albums aren't too loud; they just sound really bland and lifeless. But yeah, I can definitely see how DoD is still a bottom tier sounding record for Maiden.

Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2010, 05:48:58 AM »
If you need audacity to notice if something is clipping, then it's not a big deal.

When I'm walking around listening to my Ipod, and have to drastically turn down my volume when any Death Magnetic song or Faceless (godsmack) song come on, then that's an obvious problem.

This.  Very annoying.

Offline RobD

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2010, 06:33:45 AM »
Call me crazy, but I still think Dance of Death sounds better than Seventh Son-FotD. Those albums aren't too loud; they just sound really bland and lifeless. But yeah, I can definitely see how DoD is still a bottom tier sounding record for Maiden.

Again, that's the remastering making them sound bland and lifeless. Go listen to an original pressing of the CD version of any of the Maiden albums that got remastered and you'll not think that it sounds bland and lifeless.
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Offline ZKX-2099

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2010, 07:35:02 AM »
If you need audacity to notice if something is clipping, then it's not a big deal.

When I'm walking around listening to my Ipod, and have to drastically turn down my volume when any Death Magnetic song or Faceless (godsmack) song come on, then that's an obvious problem.

Oh DM isn't that bad.


Like they say. If its too loud, you're too old.

Offline RobD

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2010, 07:46:56 AM »
If you need audacity to notice if something is clipping, then it's not a big deal.

When I'm walking around listening to my Ipod, and have to drastically turn down my volume when any Death Magnetic song or Faceless (godsmack) song come on, then that's an obvious problem.

Oh DM isn't that bad.


Like they say. If its too loud, you're too old.

This is a bit different. There's playing something at a high volume (which is the correct way :metal) and there's the loudness war. Something can only go so loud by itself on a CD or digital audio file before it just squashes itself and turns to mush.
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Offline ZKX-2099

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2010, 07:50:28 AM »
I never really noticed it on DM till it was pointed out.

Offline Bombardana

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2010, 08:11:28 AM »
Too old for Death Magnetic? haha

Offline Progmetty

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2010, 08:26:07 AM »
DM didn't display the loudness war problem at it's worst at all, DM just exposed it to a much wider audience and more people became aware of it and the issue started getting recognition on a larger scale.
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Offline RobD

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2010, 08:37:07 AM »
DM didn't display the loudness war problem at it's worst at all, DM just exposed it to a much wider audience and more people became aware of it and the issue started getting recognition on a larger scale.

It still made me not able to listen to it all the way through. I think my least favourite case is when my mum had the Fratellis debut album on in the car. The compression pumped it so badly it actually gave me a headache.
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Offline ZKX-2099

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2010, 09:44:33 AM »
Too old for Death Magnetic? haha

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2010, 10:10:38 AM »
The Loudness War thing has become a bit of a pseudo-intellectual topic these days TBH.

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Offline RobD

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2010, 10:19:23 AM »
The Loudness War thing has become a bit of a pseudo-intellectual topic these days TBH.

rumborak


Yup, the in thing now is spotting tuned vocals! :D

Seriously though, don't get into music production/engineering. It ruins everything.
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Offline OperantChamber

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2010, 10:55:03 AM »
If you need audacity to notice if something is clipping, then it's not a big deal.

To be clear, it's not a big deal to me. I just wanted to see what some of you guys had to say.

Offline TL

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2010, 11:56:37 AM »
I never really noticed it on DM till it was pointed out.
Really?
I noticed it almost immediately. It makes the record almost painful to listen to.

Obviously there are degrees of overcompression, and on the lower end of the scale, it's not really noticeable. The problem comes with overcompression makes the song noticeably flat in volume, lifeless in production, and when it produces obvious clipping. It can ruin an otherwise good song. On the bad end of the scale, I don't know how it doesn't bother some people.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2010, 04:21:01 PM »
Call me crazy, but I still think Dance of Death sounds better than Seventh Son-FotD. Those albums aren't too loud; they just sound really bland and lifeless. But yeah, I can definitely see how DoD is still a bottom tier sounding record for Maiden.

Again, that's the remastering making them sound bland and lifeless. Go listen to an original pressing of the CD version of any of the Maiden albums that got remastered and you'll not think that it sounds bland and lifeless.

Huh?

I think all the other remasters sound great!

 ???

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2010, 04:27:32 PM »
The loudness never bothered me but the lack of separation in instruments is my beef.
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Offline TL

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2010, 04:35:05 PM »
The loudness never bothered me but the lack of separation in instruments is my beef.
Yes. This is a pretty common symptom of overcomperssion.

I think the term 'loudness' war can be misleading. Most people don't actually have a problem with the volume being high, but rather that getting the volume that high through compression causes other problems.

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2010, 04:44:46 PM »
If you need audacity to notice if something is clipping, then it's not a big deal.

To be clear, it's not a big deal to me. I just wanted to see what some of you guys had to say.

Oh that wasn't aimed at you. I have seen people in the past who got all riled up about clipping...but only when they noticed it in audacity. Meaning had they never looked at the Wav file, they wouldn't have had a problem. Those people bug me. If you can't hear the problem, then there's no problem for you. (you being anyone, not you specifically).
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Offline OperantChamber

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2010, 05:53:18 PM »
 :lol
I guess I was being overly sensitive. Anyway, I agree.

Offline TL

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2010, 06:17:15 PM »
I know it wasn't aimed at me, but I only take issue with it if it's noticeable just from listening to it.

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2010, 06:21:33 PM »
I know it wasn't aimed at me, but I only take issue with it if it's noticeable just from listening to it.

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2010, 03:31:56 AM »
The loudness never bothered me but the lack of separation in instruments is my beef.
Yes. This is a pretty common symptom of overcomperssion.
Only at a very extreme level, which is pretty rare. Even on DM the instruments are all fairly clearly recognisable. That's more commonly a problem with mixing, nothing to do with compression.

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Offline RobD

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2010, 07:30:09 AM »
Huh?

I think all the other remasters sound great!

 ???

They don't sound entirely bad, there's much worse remasters that have been done, but I listen to them and can hear that they sounded much nicer and more lively and breathed more before they remastered it. I made the mistake of buying an original pressing CD and after listening to it I had to get the entire discography again :lol Before that though, I was reasonably happy with their sound.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2010, 08:51:59 AM »
The loudness never bothered me but the lack of separation in instruments is my beef.
Yes. This is a pretty common symptom of overcomperssion.
Only at a very extreme level, which is pretty rare. Even on DM the instruments are all fairly clearly recognisable. That's more commonly a problem with mixing, nothing to do with compression.

Yeah, this. The problem is that the instruments' frequency ranges overlap, and that has nothing to do with compression.

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Loudness War
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2010, 09:00:25 AM »
Huh?

I think all the other remasters sound great!

 ???

They don't sound entirely bad, there's much worse remasters that have been done, but I listen to them and can hear that they sounded much nicer and more lively and breathed more before they remastered it. I made the mistake of buying an original pressing CD and after listening to it I had to get the entire discography again :lol Before that though, I was reasonably happy with their sound.

Yea, but if you put the remasters together, it makes a picture of Eddie....