Steven Wilson + Mikael Akerfeldt project (Mike Portnoy?)

[moffatt]

MP over GH ANY day.

[PixelDream]

I think Opiate and Undertow are very grungy albums; of course I admit that Tool's sound evolved way beyond the typical grunge parameters later on.  As far as Alice in Chains goes, they were just as similar as any of the other grunge bands.  Seriously. Alice and Chains are no more different from Soundgarden and Pearl Jam than those bands were different to each other-- or Nirvana.  

But great! You mentioned Would?. Now, I direct your attention to The Mirror, around the 5:30 mark.  Hear that low, rumbling bassline under the single, heavy chord being held out? It doesn't sound like Would?, but the style is undeniably similar and typically grunge. Likewise, the heavy eastern riff and tribal-sounding drumming in New Millennium is pretty grunge as is the last verse of Burning My Soul(The one that ends with, 'But I don't give a shit, No!"). Moreover, the Mirror features that heavy, sludging, low tempo riff right before John's solo. Or, how about this? Listen to You Not Me, and then listen to Soundgarden's Let Me Drown. Of course, Dream Theater add their prog elements to everything (as they do with all the genres that influence them)-- but the outside influence is definitely there!

Anyway, all these parts sound very grunge to me. Moreover, songs from Awake and afterwards sometimes feature a grungy style which Dream Theater were not known for at all before grunge became popular after the release of Images and Words.  Did DT become grunge? No. Were the influenced by it? Well, considering that John P has said so, and considering that after grunge became popular certain parts of Dream Theater songs began to feature a grunge sound, I stick by my original statement.

I didn't need this explanation to realise that there have been some grunge-y sounds and passages in DT's work. I'm baffled you even took the effort to explain this extremely obvious thing to these guys. But thanks anyway, and I'm definately awaiting their reaction (where are you guys now?). The examples you used are great, especially the 'Let me Drown' one.

[Global Laziness]

Oh FFS.

[KevShmev]

I didn't need this explanation to realise that there have been some grunge-y sounds and passages in DT's work. I'm baffled you even took the effort to explain this extremely obvious thing to these guys. But thanks anyway, and I'm definately awaiting their reaction (where are you guys now?). The examples you used are great, especially the 'Let me Drown' one.

Where are we now?  Uh, I for one am right here, and I am sure hef is around here somewhere.

Besides, PC is the one who still thinks Petrucci was being serious when he jokingly said that DT was in their full grunge phase, and is now using obscure parts of songs (these 2 seconds here or this one drum pattern right here) to try and prove his point.  The examples he gave...saying that stuff is grunge, someone could just as easily say that those parts were influenced by hard rock or metal, but he is taking Petrucci's comment seriously and then making direct correlations simply to make his point look more legit than it really is. 

[antigoon]

I like that there are currently three or four simultaneous arguments going on in this thread. Great fun!

:

[Perpetual Change]

I didn't need this explanation to realise that there have been some grunge-y sounds and passages in DT's work. I'm baffled you even took the effort to explain this extremely obvious thing to these guys. But thanks anyway, and I'm definately awaiting their reaction (where are you guys now?). The examples you used are great, especially the 'Let me Drown' one.

Thanks. I've always thought it was obvious too.  And no, aside from the point I made, I'm not going to bother arguing about it anymore.  Especially if people are just gonna half-ass responses (as Kev just did). I do want to point out that. for the longest time, Dream Theater showed their influences through small passages.  It wasn't until maybe 8va that they started doing whole songs that were ripped off other styles. So yeah, Kev, a passage like the one in The Mirror is important, even if it only lasts a couple of seconds. Especially since, like I said, it's something they never had gone to before that kind of style was popular.

[rumborak]

Given the stretched argument it already is to label certain DT snippets as "grunge", it can hardly serve as a basis for saying DT's music is as widely-ranged as PT's.


rumborak

[KevShmev]

Totally agree, rumborak.

And, PC, I am sorry if you feel that my response was half-assed, but the fact that you still think that JP was being serious with that comment is rather silly, and it is hard to take your overall view on this without a few grains of salt, considering that. 

Let's assume for the sake of argument that all of your grunge examples are correct: do you still think that that means that Dream Theater had a grunge phase?  Really?  Saying DT had a grunge phase because they might have had a few instances where grunge creeped into their music for a brief spell is like saying that they also had a ragtime phase because of JR's few instances of ragtime piano.

[Perpetual Change]

Kev, I never even said DT had a grunge phase.  I said that grunge influenced them, which I think is pretty obvious.  If when Hef said "John was joking" he meant "John was exaggerating when he used the word 'phase' (if that's even what he actually said, i don't know)" then I can agree with that.    The whole reason we're having this discussion is because you and Hef argued that there's no grunge influence on DT.  Now that I've bothered trying to point out examples, you're shifting the discussion to "Hey everyone, PC thinks DT had a grunge phase. LOL."

Like I said, I'm not gonna talk about it if you're gonna be half-assed. If you want to say things like You Not Me or that grungy part of the Mirror came from somewhere else, then fine. Bring up some bands and songs that preceded the grunge-era and let's talk music.  Maybe I'm wrong, and people were doing things like that before the grunge bands were. But if you guys are just going to try and semantically show me up, I'm not going to play.

[Sigz]

WTF happened to this thread?

[rumborak]

Looking at the triangle spanned by Up the Downstair, Lightbulb Sun and Fear of a Blank Planet, DT's triangle is about half the size of that.

rumborak

[hefdaddy42]

PC, none of the examples you pointed out are indigenous to grunge music.  You are hearing things that are done in DT's music that are also heard in grunge music and drawing connections where there aren't any, because the grunge guys didn't invent them. 

Most of the musical elements that set grunge apart from other forms of rock music are almost antithetical to DT's style.  DT was "influenced" by some of the same groups that influenced some of the grunge artists, and that might be what you're hearing.  But as someone who lived through in real time both DT's rise and the rise of grunge, I can truly say that you are the first person I have ever seen make any connection between the two.

Be that as it may, think whatever you want.  It's obvious that you are very passionate about your stance, and I really don't have much interest in continuing a discussion that I can't even believe is happening in the first place.

[Perpetual Change]

DT was "influenced" by some of the same groups that influenced some of the grunge artists, and that might be what you're hearing.

Who?

[hefdaddy42]

DT was "influenced" by some of the same groups that influenced some of the grunge artists, and that might be what you're hearing.

Who?

Well, early heavy metal music was an influence on grunge (although obviously not as big an influence as punk or indie rock), and was obviously also an influence on DT (along with progressive rock) - specifically I'm thinking of Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, but I'm sure there are others.

[skydivingninja]

Don't forget King Crimson's Red as influence on Kurt Cobain.

[hefdaddy42]

Don't forget King Crimson's Red as influence on Kurt Cobain.

Hey, there's one I didn't know (although sonically, it makes sense now that you say that).

[Perpetual Change]

DT was "influenced" by some of the same groups that influenced some of the grunge artists, and that might be what you're hearing.

Who?

Well, early heavy metal music was an influence on grunge (although obviously not as big an influence as punk or indie rock), and was obviously also an influence on DT (along with progressive rock) - specifically I'm thinking of Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, but I'm sure there are others.

Hm. I'm not really acquainted with Black Sabbath, aside from the singles, and while I can see how they could have been a big influence, I'm still reluctant to let go of the idea that the grunge bands also influenced DT.

Given that Dream Theater seem to have let every other major style of rock influence them during its time (Maiden and Queensryche in the 80s, Tool and Radiohead in the 90s and 00s, Muse and, unfortunately, "mall" metal recently) I don't know why they'd decide to completely ignore the fad that was taking over rock in the early-mid 90s, especially when it's well documented the label wanted them to be more mainstream.   Then again, as someone who was only 7 when Superunknown was released, I don't fully understand that whole grunge vs. metal issue anyway, and I wouldn't put it past DT to have tried to break into the mainstream audience by adapting a heavier, grungier sound regardless of what principles metal bands were supposed to hold themselves to at that time.  Especially since, as me and others have mentioned, they were already making nods to bands like Alice in Chains on the Awake tour.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't see a Radiohead influence, either.  Can you point to something?

And I don't see much of a Tool influence, either.  I mean, The Great Debate sounds like DT trying to be Tool, and Home has the 46 & 2 lift, but nothing other than that.

[Perpetual Change]

I don't see a Radiohead influence, either.  Can you point to something?

Radiohead were one of the bands MP explicitly showed in the corner of inspiration on The Making of SDOIT. I'm not sure how that came across, but "Disappear" kinda reminds me of "Exit Music" in minor ways. Again, not sure how exactly the Radiohead influence came across, but it's something that was cited by Mike.

And I don't see much of a Tool influence, either.  I mean, The Great Debate sounds like DT trying to be Tool, and Home has the 46 & 2 lift, but nothing other than that.

Yup. I know what you mean. But that's how it seems to go when mainstream bands influence DT. I mean, like the whole Muse thing. DT have undoubtedly been influenced by Muse, but the most it shows is three songs which happen to open with arppeggiated eight notes. But I'm sure Mike would readily admit the influence is there. 

Same with the grunge stuff.  I'm sure it's there, but maybe I didn't do a good job of explaining how much of an influence I thought it had.

[hefdaddy42]

*shrugs*

[MetalManiac666]

What was this thread about again?

[PixelDream]

I've listened to 'Superunknown' too, and it's no coincidence that on Awake, JLB suddenly sings with a raspier voice than usual, and the music is a bit tougher and nonchalant. The remark about DT being totally different because they're all about 'playing their instruments' is not a good one. Pearl Jam and Soundgarden for example feature musicians who are entirely capable of playing their instruments and writing intelligent songs. Yes, these bands are generally associated with 'grunge', what are you gonna do?

With 'grunge phase', JP probably meant that they were into some grunge bands. Some of that attitude and aesthetic may have leaked through into DT's music. It ain't that hard to understand. But instead, these guys have to make you look ridiculous with things like '*shrugs*' and 'I have no idea what you're talking about'. Just let the high-postcount-wise-asses have their win, PC. I'm sure they're just as cool and sophisticated in real life.

[SPNKr]

I've listened to 'Superunknown' too, and it's no coincidence that on Awake, JLB suddenly sings with a raspier voice than usual, and the music is a bit tougher and nonchalant. The remark about DT being totally different because they're all about 'playing their instruments' is not a good one. Pearl Jam and Soundgarden for example feature musicians who are entirely capable of playing their instruments and writing intelligent songs. Yes, these bands are generally associated with 'grunge', what are you gonna do?

With 'grunge phase', JP probably meant that they were into some grunge bands. Some of that attitude and aesthetic may have leaked through into DT's music. It ain't that hard to understand. But instead, these guys have to make you look ridiculous with things like '*shrugs*' and 'I have no idea what you're talking about'. Just let the high-postcount-wise-asses have their win, PC. I'm sure they're just as cool and sophisticated in real life.

[Sigz]

Ah, the post count argument. Gotta love it.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The Pancaker would love to have a word with you

[skydivingninja]

I've listened to 'Superunknown' too, and it's no coincidence that on Awake, JLB suddenly sings with a raspier voice than usual,

I just thought of James Hetfield when he sang like that.  Plus, he would do that sort of stuff live even before Awake.

[hefdaddy42]

I've listened to 'Superunknown' too, and it's no coincidence that on Awake, JLB suddenly sings with a raspier voice than usual, and the music is a bit tougher and nonchalant.

Yes it is.  That's what "coincidence" means.  Besides, as skydivingninja pointed out, he sang with that rasp live on the I&W tour, way before Awake was written and recorded.  One has nothing to do with the other.

The remark about DT being totally different because they're all about 'playing their instruments' is not a good one. Pearl Jam and Soundgarden for example feature musicians who are entirely capable of playing their instruments and writing intelligent songs. Yes, these bands are generally associated with 'grunge', what are you gonna do?

I'm not going to do anything.  First of all, "intelligent songs" has nothing to do with anything, so I have no idea why you would mention that.  Secondly, being capable of playing an instrument and going out of your way to display your instrumental skill are two vastly different things.

With 'grunge phase', JP probably meant that they were into some grunge bands.

I know they were into at least some grunge, as I've already pointed out.  But his comment about a grunge phase was clearly a joke.

Some of that attitude and aesthetic may have leaked through into DT's music.  It ain't that hard to understand.

It's also not hard to understand that that same attitude and aesthetic is more likely to have come from their actual influences like Metallica then some hypothetical grunge influence.

But instead, these guys have to make you look ridiculous with things like '*shrugs*' and 'I have no idea what you're talking about'.

I have no idea what you're talking about.  None of us have been trying to make anyone look ridiculous.  We've been having a discussion.  There's nothing offensive about a shrug.  It's at worst an "I don't know."

Just let the high-postcount-wise-asses have their win, PC. I'm sure they're just as cool and sophisticated in real life.

The only one being a wise-ass here is you, PixelDream.  I suggest you stop right now.

[reneranucci]

WTF happened to this thread?

[Perpetual Change]

So uh, anyway, this project will be cool. With or without Portnoy.

[Sigz]

Actually, I'd kinda like to see Huxflux Nettermalm, the drummer for Paatos, do something for this. He's a fantastic drummer, and it's really not out of the question seeing as how SW mixed their second album, and I know Mikael's a fan.

[hefdaddy42]

So uh, anyway, this project will be cool. With or without Portnoy.

This.

[Sigz]

*awkward silence*

[sonatafanica]

Everyone is wrong. Bernard Perdie is to be the drummer.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FX_84iWPLU

[hefdaddy42]

*awkward silence*

Nothing awkward here, Sigz.

[Quadrochosis]

This is one of quite a few topics that have gone to utter shit lately. Is there something in the air?