Author Topic: The Dark Knight Rises  (Read 105285 times)

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Offline Xanthul

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2010, 09:55:25 AM »
You just both insulted Eckhart and TDK. Double fail.
I think it's a great movie, but it could've easily been half an hour shorter, and it would've been better for it.

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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2010, 11:06:58 AM »
They should purposely try to cram every possible villain in so that the plot is incredibly incomprehensible and turns a good character into a bizarre half-parody.

That would be a fresh idea in terms of Batman films.
No, Shumacher already did that.

Oh boy did he ever!
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Offline Manolito Mystiq

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2010, 11:31:14 AM »
epic, lets see if it can best The Dark Knight!
And if it can best Batman Begins, even better!
I think I'm the only one who really didn't like Batman Begins.
Well, I think it's better than The Dark Knight. I like The Dark Knight, but it's bloated, and the Two Face story-line was underdeveloped (not that I really want to see more of Eckhart in the role).

You like the Dark Knight, you think Begins is better, but you really didn't like Begins?

Offline bosk1

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2010, 12:01:04 PM »
From Samsara’s blog on where the storyline should go, reposted from gothamcitytimes.blogspot.com

Quote
Riddle Me This...

The success of 2008’s “The Dark Knight,” directed by Christopher Nolan and starring Christian Bale and Heath Ledger, obviously begs for a follow-up. The box office numbers alone dictate it. Normally, that wouldn’t be an issue, but as most of you know who have stumbled upon this humble blog, nothing with “The Dark Knight” is “normal.”

First, the unfortunate passing of Heath Ledger, and his incredible, iconic performance of the Joker, is a huge mountain to get over. Not only did his death take a toll on Nolan and Ledger’s peers, but how do you recast the Joker in THIS Batman franchise? In my opinion, you can’t. It was just too intense. It was Ledger’s finest moment as an actor, and a performance for the ages. Ledger’s rendition truly captured the character and any recasting would simply be overshadowed. After all, it took almost 20 years to recast the character after Jack Nicholson’s portrayal in 1989’s “Batman.”

Second, Christopher Nolan, in my opinion, was so shaken by Ledger’s death, that he simply may not want to return. From Internet rumors, I heard that prior to Ledger’s passing, the Joker was in the cards for a third Nolan-led Batman film. Can Nolan get ove r that and continue? Sure he can. But what it will take is time and a story that once again transcends what a “comic book movie” is all about.

Finally, Bale won’t take on the mantle of the Bat without Nolan. That isn’t news, Bale has said that before, specifically, after 2005’s “Batman Begins.” Here is a recent quote from a “Hollywood Insider” (as always, take everything with a grain of salt) on a blog:

"Chris is in the mindset that he is unlikely to be able to top what was achieved with Dark Knight," reveals a Hollywood insider. "He has a number of new projects he's working on and Batman is not a priority for him right now. Christian is unlikely to want to do another one without Chris. He feels only he understands the dynamic of the character and so it could well be that there will have to be a new Batman and director if there is to be a third movie."

Source: http://www.imnotobsessed.com/2009/06/23/christian-bale-wont-do-another-batman-movie

Here is an idea to chew on to make sure that doesn’t happen:

The rumor mill has three main villains floating about: Riddler, Catwoman and Penguin. Think for a moment about the Nolan-led Batman franchise. What are the most important attributes he has emphasized with his two films? Realism and believability. All three of those proposed villains can do that, but the most intriguing, the one that treads new ground and can be most believable, is Riddler.

In two movies, we've seen the establishment of the Batman persona, how the character has dealt with the split personality issue of Bruce Wayne and Batman, and is successful in balancing the two. You also have the physical combat and training of the Batman character on display. But what you don't have is the development of Batman's DETECTIVE skills, which is a key element of the character.

 So you bring in Riddler, which sets up the need for Batman to develop those detective skills. To be fair, Nolan has touched on it lightly, with how the different companies in “Batman Begins” were set up to purchase materials for Batman's weapons and gear, and of course, to buy back Wayne Enterprises. Further, tracking the Joker in “The Dark Knight” also showed some of it.

But the true detective work that Batman is famous for needs to be done to expand the character, and Riddler would help do this.

Throw away, however, the previous screen portrayals of Riddler. What is needed here is a depiction to capture audiences and expand the realism. I'm thinking a serial killer, along the lines of Buffalo Bill, but with the ability to project himself as a normal person and hold extremely intelligent conversation. But then be so dark, that you see (have to keep the rating at PG-13, so not actually seeing it) he tortures and kills people, leaving clues taunting Batman like we all remember Riddler does (this isn't the idiotic Riddler character portrayed by Jim Carey). This could be a gripping angle on the character which would necessitate Batman not being able to solve everything by physical brute force -- how detective work is necessary first in order to solve complex crimes.

I’m not saying you take the laughter out of Riddler’s character, and make him completely murderous. The riddles, the obsession with the riddles should all be there, and utilized. But utilizing Riddler in a darker way would set up the main plot and adventure of the story, further the development of the Batman character, and bring a suspenseful and realistic tone to the film.

That said, I don’t think Catwoman and Penguin are out of the question but they need to be understated. Catwoman should be introduced first and foremost as Selina Kyle, her true identity. She should be the new love interest in Bruce Wayne’s life. She’s an obvious fit – not available much in th e evenings, leads a double life like Bruce, etc. The “perfect” girl for Bruce. Of course, we all know the truth, but the Bruce Wayne character wouldn’t. By introducing Selina, you also advance the Bruce Wayne character as well…the first major relationship after the death of Rachel Dawes.

Does Catwoman actually make an appearance? Absolutely. But for 3/4 of the film, you should only hear about Catwoman in brief mentions such as Alfred talking about it showing up in the paper, Batman just missing her during one of his patrols, etc. All of this leads up to the conclusion of the movie, where Bruce and Selina realize who each other are, and that their relationship will not work. It’s a tried and true way of doing it, but a necessary one if you want to further develop the Bruce Wayne/Batman character.

In regard to Penguin, he’s actually already been introduced, albeit in book form. If you read the “prequel” to “The Dark Knight,” “Gotham Knight,” you see Oswald Cobblepot setting up his “business interests” in Gotham. That was a great move to casually add in the character to this franchise. You reintroduce that in the third film, with Cobblepot being a minor criminal element first, but one Batman can’t really put away, due to a lack of evidence. Of course, you reveal his nickname, “The Penguin,” and have a rather portly actor portray him. Not obnoxiously over the top like Danny Devito did in “Batman Returns,” but a believable, sneaky criminal.

His involvement in the movie plot should be extremely minimal, but just enough so that the viewer realizes that this guy is going to be serious trouble in the future for Batman, setting up a future film role for Penguin. I have faith that David Goyer and Jonathan Nolan (the writers of Batman Begin and The Dark Knight) could do that well.

Now, if you’re a Batman fanatic like I am (and if you read all that, give yourself a hand as you’re in the club), the elephant in the room is how to deal with the Joker. He’s alive, and presumably in Arkham Asylum. As a tribute to Heath Ledger, this is what I propose:

Have Batman visit Arkham Asylum in the third film to check on Scarecrow (another guest spot by Cillian Murphy), some of the other various no-name criminals, and bang, you see the nameplate of “The Joker” on a cell door as Batman walks through. He stops, briefly, after hearing some laughter. You DO NOT AT ALL, recast The Joker. Batman DOES NOT, AT ANY TIME (nor does the viewer) SEE the Joker. You simply hear his laugh, and witness Batman being taunted by the Joker using one or two lines and some laughter.

 Who should say those lines? Very easy. Mark Hamill. Hamill is revered by Batman fans for doing the voiceover work for the Joker in “Batman: The Animated Series.” He had clearly gotten the psychotic “laugh” down, and by having that one tense scene in Arkham in the next Nolan-led Batman film, you serve two purposes. First, you address “The Joker situation,” so fans see where he is, and you also pay an appropriate tribute to Heath Ledger’s work by not recasting him.


So there are some thoughts on a believable take on the villains and basic outline of what should be address in any Nolan-led third Batman film. Obviously, you need that meaty serial killer story that I mentioned using Riddler, and I purposefully left out my own ideas on that. Jonathan Nolan and David Goyer would have a field day with this angle, and they’d likely pull it off in a way that makes it not only dark and believable, but also accessible to a broad audience, just like “The Dark Knight.”

Time will tell what, if anything, comes to pass with a Nolan-led third Batman film. Nolan is notorious for concentrating only on the film he is making at that particular moment, and he’s currently shooting “Inception,” and rumor has it, has another film on his plate after that. So there is going to be a lengthy hiatus, even if he does agree to do a third Bat-film.
So what do we do in the interim? Or what should happen if Nolan and Bale step down for good? I have some ideas on that too, but that’s for my next blog.
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Offline pogoowner

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2010, 12:02:58 PM »
epic, lets see if it can best The Dark Knight!
And if it can best Batman Begins, even better!
I think I'm the only one who really didn't like Batman Begins.
Well, I think it's better than The Dark Knight. I like The Dark Knight, but it's bloated, and the Two Face story-line was underdeveloped (not that I really want to see more of Eckhart in the role).

You like the Dark Knight, you think Begins is better, but you really didn't like Begins?
I don't think you've interpreted that exchange correctly. emindead is the one who didn't really like Batman Begins.

Offline AnybodyListening.net

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2010, 01:15:36 PM »
bosk,

It finally worked, eh? Thank goodness. I tried posting that about 10 times.
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Offline Manolito Mystiq

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2010, 02:40:04 PM »
epic, lets see if it can best The Dark Knight!
And if it can best Batman Begins, even better!
I think I'm the only one who really didn't like Batman Begins.
Well, I think it's better than The Dark Knight. I like The Dark Knight, but it's bloated, and the Two Face story-line was underdeveloped (not that I really want to see more of Eckhart in the role).

You like the Dark Knight, you think Begins is better, but you really didn't like Begins?
I don't think you've interpreted that exchange correctly. emindead is the one who didn't really like Batman Begins.

Yes, my bad. It seems illogical if you read the quotations after each other, but it's probably just me.

Offline AnybodyListening.net

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2010, 04:53:00 PM »
So about B3. What do folks think of my take on a potential storyline?

If you're into Batman stuff, check out my fairly new blog - gothamcitytimes.blogspot.com.
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Offline reneranucci

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2010, 05:08:58 PM »
I liked Batman Begins. I watched TDK at the cinema and honestly I hated it, I remember having sort of a discussion with Reap about why I didn´t like the movie. That said, I wasn´t into Batman at all (just watched the recent movies plus the amazing 60´s series  :lol). But now I have read some comic books and I hope that helps to increase my appreciation for the movie. At least, now I kinda understand what was so great about the Joker in TDK. I just didn´t understand all the praise for him, to me it was just another shallow mean villain with the cliche bad guy antics. But after reading The Killing Joke, I have a slightly better understanding of the depth of the character, and the development of the character in the movie made sense. I read Batman: Year One and grasped some of the dark side of Batman, which is not evident if you only think of him as another good guy who helps people with his powers. I also have The Dark Knight returns and The Long Halloween but haven´t read them yet.

So I plan to watch TDK again and see if I enjoy it, so I can impatiently look forward to Batman 3.

Offline reneranucci

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2010, 05:19:09 PM »
I also would like to know your opinions about the previous (pre-Nolan) Batman movies. Have they been actually bad for Batman, in the sense of not giving a correct image of what the character is all about?

Offline zerogravityfat

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2010, 05:29:23 PM »
IMO Burton did a decent job in the first movie, but the second one had too much fluff and characters, so it was out of hand. The overall feel was too cartoonish and not as dark as it should be, that's why Nolan did a great job of capturing the mood. The rest of the Batmans were a complete insult to the type of character that is portrayed and they were meant to be for people who have no idea of who batman and just want a superhero movie with cheesy one liners and hot actors/actresses.
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Offline AnybodyListening.net

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2010, 05:30:44 PM »
I also would like to know your opinions about the previous (pre-Nolan) Batman movies. Have they been actually bad for Batman, in the sense of not giving a correct image of what the character is all about?

I'm about to split DTF for the day, so I'll have to answer this more in-depth (maybe as a blog!). I thought Batman 89 was a good film...but it did not convey the relationship between Joker and Batman properly - Joker can never be killed. He's needed to balance Batman - TDK got it right, and I liked the throwback to the last Joker scene in B89...Nolan did that as a tribute, but also to show where B89 got it wrong. It was also too centered on Joker because of the shock value. But still, a great movie and Batman story, even if some things were factually incorrect about Batman and the Bat-universe.

I thought Batman Returns was bad - Penquin was ridiculous and that business guy...Shrek, done by Walken, was just over-the-top and off the wall. No growth for Bruce or Batman in that fim either, Batman Forever just continued that, and Batman & Robin was God awful (I walked out about halfway through and have never owned that film in any capacity).

I'll think more about it, and maybe blog on it.
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Offline reneranucci

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2010, 05:34:50 PM »
The rest of the Batmans were a complete insult to the type of character that is portrayed and they were meant to be for people who have no idea of who batman and just want a superhero movie with cheesy one liners and hot actors/actresses.
that´s what I thought, and maybe that´s why the Nolan movies can be shocking. Watching Batman in flames, riding a horse and scaring the hell out of people (is that a scene on Batman Begins?) is too far from the typical friendly superhero character.

Offline AnybodyListening.net

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2010, 08:48:00 PM »
The rest of the Batmans were a complete insult to the type of character that is portrayed and they were meant to be for people who have no idea of who batman and just want a superhero movie with cheesy one liners and hot actors/actresses.
that´s what I thought, and maybe that´s why the Nolan movies can be shocking. Watching Batman in flames, riding a horse and scaring the hell out of people (is that a scene on Batman Begins?) is too far from the typical friendly superhero character.

Reneranucci,

You are thinking of the scene in Batman Begins when the Scarecrow is on a police horse, and the shot is from the perspective of a child drugged with his toxin.
This Samsära guy doesn't post too much, but he's pretty much always right.  :tup


Offline reneranucci

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2010, 02:48:46 AM »
The rest of the Batmans were a complete insult to the type of character that is portrayed and they were meant to be for people who have no idea of who batman and just want a superhero movie with cheesy one liners and hot actors/actresses.
that´s what I thought, and maybe that´s why the Nolan movies can be shocking. Watching Batman in flames, riding a horse and scaring the hell out of people (is that a scene on Batman Begins?) is too far from the typical friendly superhero character.

Reneranucci,

You are thinking of the scene in Batman Begins when the Scarecrow is on a police horse, and the shot is from the perspective of a child drugged with his toxin.
Yeah, that one. I have bad memory for movies.

Looking forward to your blog :)

Offline Zantera

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2010, 03:03:29 AM »
The Riddler would be awesome.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2010, 04:41:20 AM »
Samsara, I like the thought you put into your idea, but I shudder at the thought of the Penguin, the Riddler, or Catwoman appearing in one of these Nolan films.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2010, 05:30:20 AM »
I think Riddler is by far the best choice for the third Batman villain. And, Samsara, I really like your take on it.

But I can't agree with you on Catwoman or Joker. I always thought Catwoman was a terrible idea for a character. Activist-nazi's only hold signs, rarely do they actually act on their beliefs. And beyond being a woman in a cat suit, what's interesting about her? In the animated series - nothing. And to be fair that's my only reference for the character. Maybe she's developed better elsewhere. The Joker should just not be seen or heard in the third film out of respect for Ledger. And, to be honest, I want to be able to watch Batman Three without ever being reminded of what could have been if Ledger's Joker had another film. It's too sad in too many ways.

The most important part of Batman Three is going to be getting the story right. Where is Bruce Wayne as a character at the end of all this? After Joker and Two-Face, how much further can Batman be pushed? This is why Riddler might be good as a villain. The Joker created an unstoppable force vs. immovable object relationship. Two Face asked if Batman's value were really right in the first place. But The Ridder is smart enough to defeat Batman by actually unmasking him. The Joker made Batman's brute force look useless at times, but The Ridder wouldn't even let Batman lay a hand on him. But even still, this are merely expansions on past themes.

The villains in Batman Begins, while very good, were comic book villains.  The villains in The Dark Knight actually took Bruce's soul head on. What else is there?

Just no Robin, and I have hope Nolan, Nolan, and Goyer can make it work.
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Offline reneranucci

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2010, 08:02:32 AM »
Maybe Mr. Freeze, then :splodetard:

Offline RandalGraves

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2010, 08:33:30 AM »
Maybe I'm just pulling it out of my ass, but before Ledger died, wasn't it planned to bring the Joker back?  Re-cast him.  Worked for Dr. Parnassus.

Offline zerogravityfat

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2010, 09:16:59 AM »
recasting for joker would be a disaster.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2010, 09:25:38 AM »
recasting for joker would be a disaster.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Adami

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2010, 11:05:32 AM »
The only way I can see handeling the joker is to do a slightly different take on Samsaras idea. Have him not be seen but heard, only instead of using Skywalker, try to find outtakes or unused scenes for TDK and use Ledgers lines from that, sure he filmed some scenes we didn't get to see.
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Offline Zantera

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2010, 11:09:46 AM »
Ye, but would be easier to just take in a new villain. :P

Offline Accelerando

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2010, 11:35:52 AM »
The only way I can see handeling the joker is to do a slightly different take on Samsaras idea. Have him not be seen but heard, only instead of using Skywalker, try to find outtakes or unused scenes for TDK and use Ledgers lines from that, sure he filmed some scenes we didn't get to see.

I like X 2

They did this with Marlon Brando in Superman Returns

Offline DarkLord_Lalinc

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2010, 11:38:43 AM »



Now, these are awesome news  :D
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Offline Adami

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #61 on: May 06, 2010, 12:01:34 PM »
Ye, but would be easier to just take in a new villain. :P

Well obviously my idea wouldn't work for more than a 5-10 second scene. You obviously need new villians, I was just saying that this would be the only way to have the joker in the movie to any extent.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #62 on: May 06, 2010, 01:17:07 PM »
Ye, but would be easier to just take in a new villain. :P

True, but something along the lines of what Samsara suggested is a subtle way of adding something that ties in continuity with the other films, which is always nice. 
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Offline Adami

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #63 on: May 06, 2010, 01:18:17 PM »
Ye, but would be easier to just take in a new villain. :P

True, but something along the lines of what Samsara suggested is a subtle way of adding something that ties in continuity with the other films, which is always nice. 

However, now that I think about it, it would be able to work till the very end maybe. At the end of TDK, Batman is a villian to gotham and is hunted and chased. I doubt he would be able to walk around Arkham very easily
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Offline AnybodyListening.net

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #64 on: May 06, 2010, 01:43:09 PM »
If you guys visit www.gothamcitytimes.blogspot.com, I tackle the issues of Catwoman and Robin in a third Nolan film...
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Offline RobD

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #65 on: May 06, 2010, 01:58:42 PM »
No-one's mentioned her yet but... Harley Quinn...? Kind of ties in with the Joker being in Arkham too.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #66 on: May 06, 2010, 02:06:43 PM »
True, but something along the lines of what Samsara suggested is a subtle way of adding something that ties in continuity with the other films, which is always nice.  

Good storytelling is more important than continuity.

Also, Robin is an inherently campy character. Even in the Animated series, his episodes inevitably had a lighter tone to them. Nothing was wrong with that, but Nolan's movies are an exercise in being as camp-free as possible. Dick Grayson could maybe be interesting, but please no Robin.

I'm hoping the third Batman film really wraps up the Nolan universe. Introducing too many characters makes that tough.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 02:14:13 PM by ReaPsTA »
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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #67 on: May 06, 2010, 02:09:42 PM »
reneranucci,

The blog you asked for is now posted. www.gothamcitytimes.blogspot.com

Just my take on your question.  :) It was a good thing to blog on. I kept it short, but gave my thoughts.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #68 on: May 06, 2010, 02:11:08 PM »
True, but something along the lines of what Samsara suggested is a subtle way of adding something that ties in continuity with the other films, which is always nice. 

Good storytelling is more important than continuity.

Of course, but good storytelling and continuity are not mutually exclusive, and the latter can enhance the former when done correctly.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #69 on: May 06, 2010, 02:14:55 PM »
Of course, but good storytelling and continuity are not mutually exclusive, and the latter can enhance the former when done correctly.

I just don't understand what any more than mentioning the Joker in the third film will do other than make the audience think "Health Ledger dying was really sad." It's a distraction.
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