The Dark Knight Rises

[Dream Team]

No. He made the character his own, but not in a good way. Not gonna get into a whole Joker debate though. Let's just say I like Burton's Batman better and leave it at that.

Same here.

[skydivingninja]

Its "cool" to like The Dark Knight because it just so happens a LOT of people liked the movie.  Same reason why its cool to like Lady Gaga, there are a LOT of people who like her music.  And Ledger's performance of the Joker was great, though personally I thought Eckhart was the real star.  I'd love to see you actually explain why you think Ledger's Joker isn't as good as Nicholson's.  Sorry dude, but Reap's analysis of your post seems pretty accurate.

[Perpetual Change]

Its "cool" to like The Dark Knight because it just so happens a LOT of people liked the movie.  Same reason why its cool to like Lady Gaga, there are a LOT of people who like her music. 

LOL yeah, you're not really convincing me of anything here 

[Perpetual Change]

No. He made the character his own, but not in a good way. Not gonna get into a whole Joker debate though. Let's just say I like Burton's Batman better and leave it at that.

Same here.

Glad someone else realizes you can state you like the old Joker better without wanting to get into (another) debate about "WHICHJOKERWASBETTER>>!!!"

[skydivingninja]

I just used an example from another part of the entertainment industry, but you can't say something like "oh people just like it becasue its cool" without even thinking about why someone might find it cool in the first place.

So you're really not going to explain your Joker comment?  Okay.

[Perpetual Change]

I already explained as much as I care too. Ledger made the Joker his own, in a way that I　don't like. You want more?　Sorry. I have no more. I like the old Joker better. That's it. And if I post more, you and others are just going to find ways to pick it apart and drag it into an argument that's occured on the net 1000 times already. Like I said, I'm NOT doing this debate again. If you don't like my opinion, I don't care. But please stop acting like my opinion is doing you a disservice.

And as far as Gaga is concerned, sorry. I stopped believing that things that are popular must have at least "some" merit a long time ago. But, if you insist, I think Ledger's average Joker is better than the atrocity that is Gaga.

[King Postwhore]

No. He made the character his own, but not in a good way. Not gonna get into a whole Joker debate though. Let's just say I like Burton's Batman better and leave it at that.

I think you in the minority here.  I liked the fact that Heath made the character seem human.  He to me seemed like a person gone off the deep end who sheds all morality to the point of killing to make a point.  

[skydivingninja]

Your opinion isn't doing me a disservice at all.  I actually was interested in how you thought Ledger's way of making the Joker his own was not a good one.  I don't agree with it, of course, especially since I'm not much of a Tim Burton fan, but you have to understand if you say something like "I don't want to have this debate again" only to bring up the debate in the first place, you are basically asking for a debate to start.  I was just looking for more information than "I just don't like it as much."  

And popular things don't have some objective merit.  Nothing does.  But I can understand that lots of people like The Dark Knight or Gaga, and thats why they're popular.  That's all there is to it.  

[ehra]

but you have to understand if you say something like "I don't want to have this debate again" only to bring up the debate in the first place, you are basically asking for a debate to start.

Could you say that the "I don't want to have this debate again" thing is a clichéd expression that needs to go away?

[bosk1]

Lately, I am reminded about Blob.  The reason I am reminded of him is this:  He was a forum member in good standing, and aside from conflicts with a few members, was pretty well liked on the board as a whole.  On certain topics, he would uncharacteristically post in a very abrasive, offensive way.  Even though many might have agreed with his actual opinion, it was the way he presented it that caused a lot of unnecessary tension and drama.  I and other mods warned him a few times.  And other forum members would try to explain that it wasn't what he was saying, but rather how he was saying it.  Every time anyone, whether a mod or not, would bring those kinds of things up, rather than take it to heart, he would get defensive and say the problem was with the rest of the forum and not him.  I generally find that when a big enough group of people are coming to someone and saying there is a problem with what the person is doing, it's a good opportunity to take a step back and do some serious self-reflection.  Maybe the majority is genuinely wrong.  But then again, if a big enough group of people are observing the same behavior and finding it offensive, it could be an opportunity to realize that even if the person has no ill ententions, his behavior is still inadvertently creating ill will.  After recognzing that, the person can then take the opportunity to change--not because they necessarily are convinced that they are "wrong," but simply because it's best for the sake of getting along and not creating unnecessary conflict (or, to put it another way, because it's the polite thing to do).  Blob, unfortunately, didn't figure that out.  Although he was among friends, he got defensive, threw a tantrum and accused everyone else of attacking him, and just decided to leave.  

I'm not saying anyone involved in this discuss has to do anything in particular.  I'm just making some observations.  Maybe they're valid.  Maybe not.  But those are my observations, and some of them just may apply.

[Perpetual Change]

Okay, then here: Ledger isn't playing the Joker. He's playing some kind of drug addict.  Sure, it's realistic, but it's not "the Joker." It's Nolan applying his "it has to be realistic" aesthetic to a comic book character by turning said character into a what I've described above. It's NOT that interesting to me, not compared to the job Jack Nicholson did. Then again, Burtan's Batman was a comic-book movie, and Nolan's is NOT a comic book movie but a movie based on a comic book that tries to deny its roots at every chance. So there.

[Adami]

Okay, then here: Ledger isn't playing the Joker. He's playing some kind of drug addict.  Sure, it's realistic, but it's not "the Joker." It's Nolan applying his "it has to be realistic" aesthetic to a comic book character by turning said character into a what I've described above. It's NOT that interesting to me, not compared to the job Jack Nicholson did. Then again, Burtan's Batman was a comic-book movie, and Nolan's is NOT a comic book movie but a movie based on a comic book that tries to deny its roots at every chance. So there.

So it's a matter of principle for you. Heath Ledgers joker is bad because it's diffeent. Burtons batman is more like the comic, so it's good.

Fair enough.

[ehra]

I haven't read it so I don't know for sure, but I heard that Ledger's Joker was very similar to the Joker in Alan Moore's The Killing Joke?

[skydivingninja]

Thats interesting PC, I actually did find Ledger's Joker to be more like the Joker in the more recent comics, like Arkham Asylum, Killing Joke, and Joker as opposed to the cartoony sort of Joker in the animated series and Burton movies.  But if its not interesting to you, different strokes for different folks and all that.

[Perpetual Change]

He's like a combo of Alan More and Frank Miller (both non-canonical) interpretations.

And, while those are popular writers for the "I　usually don't read comics but..." crowd, they've also got their fare share of detractors. Not that I　care enough about that whole debate to get involved.

[skydivingninja]

Moore's joker actually is canon.  He paralyzed Barbara, and she remained paralyzed.  Sounds canon to me.

[Adami]

He's like a combo of Alan More and Frank Miller (both non-canonical) interpretations.

And, while those are popular writers for the "I　usually don't read comics but..." crowd, they've also got their fare share of detractors. Not that I　care enough about that whole debate to get involved.

I actually can see your point. I don't feel this way about Batman. But like Star Trek, I have major problems when things break cannon in Star Trek and have a hard time getting passed the principle of it.

[Perpetual Change]

I　actually could care less about people liking the Dark Knight, I just hate when it's considered like "The Best Comic Book Movie Ever!" Since, in my mind, it's barely a comic book movie at all... Like I said, I like both, but I　just think Batman Begins was a lot better... The Dark Knight is good, but once I stopped really considering it a "comic book" movie I realized that, at least for me, it really didn't stand up too well against a lot of "normal" movies... If that makes sense.

[GuineaPig]

I think The Dark Knight is overrated too, but for very different reasons than PC.

[chrisbDTM]

I'm actually very happy that they aren't doing it in 3d. That fad needs to die

[Zook]

The Dark Knight. The Dark Knight Rises. The Dark Knight Brushes His Teeth. The Dark Knight Gets Dressed. The Dark Knight Eats Breakfast. The Dark Knight Goes To School.

[MetalJunkie]

He's like a combo of Alan More and Frank Miller (both non-canonical) interpretations.

And, while those are popular writers for the "I　usually don't read comics but..." crowd, they've also got their fare share of detractors. Not that I　care enough about that whole debate to get involved.

I actually can see your point. I don't feel this way about Batman. But like Star Trek, I have major problems when things break cannon in Star Trek and have a hard time getting passed the principle of it.

[bosk1]

The Dark Knight. The Dark Knight Rises. The Dark Knight Brushes His Teeth. The Dark Knight Gets Dressed. The Dark Knight Eats Breakfast. The Dark Knight Goes To School.

  I'd see all of those! 

[emindead]

I'm actually very happy that they aren't doing it in 3d. That fad needs to die

It's no fad.

Stop it with the 3D Disney movies, that fad needs to die now! Bring me back my 2D classics!

It won't happen.

[Volk9]

I didnt like Batman Begins for the most part.

Dark Knight is really really good, but kinda overhyped/rated.

[MetalJunkie]

Okay, then here: Ledger isn't playing the Joker. He's playing some kind of drug addict.  Sure, it's realistic, but it's not "the Joker." It's Nolan applying his "it has to be realistic" aesthetic to a comic book character by turning said character into a what I've described above. It's NOT that interesting to me, not compared to the job Jack Nicholson did. Then again, Burtan's Batman was a comic-book movie, and Nolan's is NOT a comic book movie but a movie based on a comic book that tries to deny its roots at every chance. So there.

I loved when Tim Burton told Kevin Smith he never read any comic books. Kevin's response? "That explains Batman."

I watched Batman Returns recently, and I was appalled by how many people Batman killed without hesitance.

[skydivingninja]

I actually haven't seen Batman Returns.  If that's true, wow. 

I recently rewatched Batman Begins, and the only part that really still bothers me (besides Mrs. Cruise) is when Batman tells R'as: "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you."  Batman could have said that in any number of occasions when a bad guy is about to fall to his death in the comics or in the animated TV show, but never does.  Then in the Dark Knight, he saves the Joker, when he could have just said "well I didn't have to save him" and let him fall to his death.  It doesn't sit right with me.

[MetalJunkie]

I actually haven't seen Batman Returns.  If that's true, wow.  

This is one of his "killing scenes."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ULSvR6hhyI

Hell, at least Batman Forever managed to nail that aspect of Batman.

[skydivingninja]

wut

[MetalJunkie]

wut

?

[NecessaryPain]

Nolan has done a good job with Batman, but I don't think he should bother with these comic book movies ever again. He is much better at creating other original films.

There is absolutely no way anyone can convince me TDK is a better film than Memento or The Prestige. Even Inception.

There is nothing realistic about a guy gliding through the sky and landing on cars undamaged. Or taking bullets through a rubber suit. Or taking on 200 men. Yet people are eager to use this excuse all the time when someone enquires about the 'unrealistic villians' etc.

Batman just doesn't need to be realistic. He's a comic book character and should remain that way.

Keeping it dark is all good - but there's a better way to go about it. V For Vendetta did a very good job at this. It was dark, intelligent and highly entertaining.

Batman is popular because a lot of people (mainly americans) have been waiting for the super-hero genre to be done right. And Nolan is a very talented director - so it's a good combination.

As for the Joker - I consider this to be the most overrated performance of all time. Heath is just playing a mad-man from the comics, with his messy facepaint and tone of voice. His look often over-powers his acting. There isn't really anything outstanding regarding this performance. I actually think I could do what Heath did in the film. A lot of people have been able to emulate this type of performance on YouTube - which further demonstrates my point.

Switch the Joker for a tough role like Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man, or anything Daniel Day Lewis related. Then come back and tell me it's the best performance of all time. (which a lot of people consider to be the case)

I think a lot of good actors could do what Heath did. And it's sad that a good actor such as he died so young, but this gave him the gift of an Oscar - which was nothing more than the sympathy vote.

Anyway, Begins is a much better film when you look at the total package. I can't help but think about how highly rated this film is without the influence of Ledger. 

[skydivingninja]

Lots of people can IMITATE Ledger's joker, sure.  But could any of those same people come up with the Joker without any prior influence, even without reading the comic books?  That takes some kind of skill.  Is it the best performance ever?  No, but Heath certainly deserved that Oscar, dead or alive.

As for the realism argument: comic book characters and worlds have gotten more realistic since Watchmen, and their characters were more realistic before that ever since Peter Parker put anxiety into superheroes.  Saying that someone like Batman is "just a comic book character" just doesn't make sense anymore when arguing against realism when "just a comic book character" has these sort of juvenile implications.  Where darkness is concerned, I think Nolan's Batman is just great.  Its dark like Miller's Batman stories, but you don't deal with any of the superhuman aspects of the comics that might take away from the atmosphere. 

As for the somewhat implausible aspects of the first movie (IIRC, Batman's suit isn't bulletproof and he doesn't take on a bunch of dudes at once in TDK), remember that these are action movies.  There are always going to be implausible scenes, but I don't feel they detract in any way from the movies.  They're more plausible than a burned up guy in a mask taking so much fire from such close range from ten government soldiers who don't seem to understand the idea of a headshot. 

I think I would agree with you that Memento is better than TDK.  The Prestige and Inception?  Not so much.

[orcus116]

I'm actually very happy that they aren't doing it in 3d. That fad needs to die

It's no fad.

With the advent of really high name directors completely trashing and refusing to use it, I'd say it is. And I'm talking directors with a vision is various aspects of film making. As much as I hate Michael Bay's popcorn-only technique the man knows how to shoot really "holy shit" shots and his thoughts on 3D cover just as much ground as Nolan's do. Is anyone even using 3D well outside of Cameron? I'm not talking people like Paul W.S. Anderson who love it just as an excuse to throw axes and bullets at the audience.

Lots of people can IMITATE Ledger's joker, sure.  But could any of those same people come up with the Joker without any prior influence, even without reading the comic books?  That takes some kind of skill. 

I don't understand why people can't accept that. Whether or not you like to admit it the man created a real character. Whenever you see Morgan Freeman it's "hey it's Morgan Freeman", not Lucius Fox. Whenever you see Christian Bale it might be "hey it's Batman" but it's that unmistakable Bale overtone. Whenever you see the Joker, it's the mother fuckin Joker. Within the universe Nolan has created there is no Heath Ledger. There is an actual crazy human being that is frightening. I can imagine that person actually existing.

[Perpetual Change]

Okay, then here: Ledger isn't playing the Joker. He's playing some kind of drug addict.  Sure, it's realistic, but it's not "the Joker." It's Nolan applying his "it has to be realistic" aesthetic to a comic book character by turning said character into a what I've described above. It's NOT that interesting to me, not compared to the job Jack Nicholson did. Then again, Burtan's Batman was a comic-book movie, and Nolan's is NOT a comic book movie but a movie based on a comic book that tries to deny its roots at every chance. So there.

I loved when Tim Burton told Kevin Smith he never read any comic books. Kevin's response? "That explains Batman."

I watched Batman Returns recently, and I was appalled by how many people Batman killed without hesitance.

I　can only explain this by comparing it with another story turned to film: Dune. While the Sci-Fi original series got much more about Dune correct in terms of plot, the David Lynch version really nails the aesthetic. Had the technology and budget been available to Lynch, he would've had a fine movie that's up there with the best Sci-Fi classics.

Burton gets Batman wrong, but he doesn't get comic books wrong. Nolan gets Batman right, but he takes the comic book out of it. Which, as has been pointed out, comic book writers themselves have done. But I think Nolan's interpretation falls short almost as often as it hits home. For one, I know Bale's gravelly "Solid Snake" voice fits in with Nolan's realistic almost-military sci-fi (at times) setting, it's ain't for me. Frankly, Bale just doesn't do a good job, and that has a little bit to do with Nolan's interpretation. Batman's supposed to be hiding in the shadows, so ever time he talks "IT　SHOULDN'T SOUND LIKE THIS"

I actually like Burton's Wagnerian Batman. He's a badass. He's more like some kind of demi-god than Nolan, who spends the majority of the time of both movies getting his ass kicked. But it's just a different interpretation. I　just like Burton's better.

Not trying to sound like a spoilsport, just a bit concerned.  I think now that the majority of Nolan's atmosphere is built up, the flaws that have always kinda been there (Like Bale) are gonna become more apparent.

[emindead]

I'm actually very happy that they aren't doing it in 3d. That fad needs to die

It's no fad.

With the advent of really high name directors completely trashing and refusing to use it, I'd say it is. And I'm talking directors with a vision is various aspects of film making. As much as I hate Michael Bay's popcorn-only technique the man knows how to shoot really "holy shit" shots and his thoughts on 3D cover just as much ground as Nolan's do. Is anyone even using 3D well outside of Cameron? I'm not talking people like Paul W.S. Anderson who love it just as an excuse to throw axes and bullets at the audience.

Hey, I'm in favour of Directors choosing to film only in IMAX or whatever the HD thing is instead of 3D. My concern is that since the demand is getting higher and higher for these 3D popcorn movies that it won't stop, no matter what some brilliant directors say. Those like Cameron still want to push 3D movies to try and make a great movie with well blend 3D images, all of this to prove: "see? it is (instead of a 'it can be') a great complementary if done right. MOVIES ARE NOW RE-RE-REVOLUTIONIZED!" As long as there is a great demand of viewers wanting to see movies in 3D and directors wanting to film it that way, I'm sorry, it's no fad. Sadly.