Author Topic: The Dark Knight Rises  (Read 117854 times)

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Offline MetalJunkie

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #105 on: May 10, 2010, 01:09:29 PM »
Just cause he didn't kill doesn't mean they got the character right.
Care to elaborate on how they got the character wrong? Not counting batnipples.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #106 on: May 10, 2010, 01:19:11 PM »
He was just cold and slugish. Bruce Wayne was less of a character than in TDK and batman had no motivation other than "I guess I should stop the badguys".
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Offline MetalJunkie

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #107 on: May 10, 2010, 01:33:50 PM »
Up until BB and TDK, he was the most developed Batman I've seen on screen, though I know that's not saying much. They spent quite a bit of time exploring his parents' deaths and his guilt for Two Face's creation.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #108 on: May 10, 2010, 01:35:06 PM »
Up until BB and TDK, he was the most developed Batman I've seen on screen, though I know that's not saying much. They spent quite a bit of time exploring his parents' deaths and his guilt for Two Face's creation.

They spent time in the first movie with his parents, yes. But we're talking Batman Forever. His deal with Harvey was barely touched upon and wa shallow as hell. But your right, it was better than the Adam West one, but as you said that's not saying much.
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Offline Samsara

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #109 on: May 10, 2010, 02:03:03 PM »
My opinion is that Batman Forever didn't get the Bruce Wayne/Batman character right at all. It has been awhile since I watched that one, but I don't recall anything in that film that really stands out - with me saying "yeah, they got it." If anything, the character just stands still, without a lot of development. Probably on purpose, since all those first four movies did was focus on the villains and other characters.
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Offline DarkLord_Lalinc

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #110 on: May 10, 2010, 02:05:11 PM »
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #111 on: May 10, 2010, 02:12:03 PM »
Up until BB and TDK, he was the most developed Batman I've seen on screen, though I know that's not saying much. They spent quite a bit of time exploring his parents' deaths and his guilt for Two Face's creation.

They spent time in the first movie with his parents, yes. But we're talking Batman Forever. His deal with Harvey was barely touched upon and wa shallow as hell. But your right, it was better than the Adam West one, but as you said that's not saying much.

The Adam West Batman at least succeeded at being intentionally funny.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #112 on: May 10, 2010, 02:12:53 PM »
Oh it did indeed. And it will be rightfully praised for that.
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Offline Samsara

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #113 on: May 10, 2010, 03:11:18 PM »
Agreed. The TV show was what it was. It was funny, it entertained, and got me interested in Batman. I wish they would release that show on DVD at some point..
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Offline Adami

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #114 on: May 10, 2010, 03:14:01 PM »
Agreed. The TV show was what it was. It was funny, it entertained, and got me interested in Batman. I wish they would release that show on DVD at some point..

Have you seen the 40's batman?
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Offline Samsara

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #115 on: May 10, 2010, 04:11:01 PM »
Agreed. The TV show was what it was. It was funny, it entertained, and got me interested in Batman. I wish they would release that show on DVD at some point..

Have you seen the 40's batman?

I almost picked the episodes up on DVD (if we are talking about the same thing) three times now and stopped. So no.
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Online kingshmegland

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #116 on: May 10, 2010, 04:14:53 PM »
Who doesn't love the Batwatusi! ;D
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #117 on: May 10, 2010, 04:29:51 PM »
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Adami

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #118 on: May 10, 2010, 04:41:22 PM »
Agreed. The TV show was what it was. It was funny, it entertained, and got me interested in Batman. I wish they would release that show on DVD at some point..

Have you seen the 40's batman?

I almost picked the episodes up on DVD (if we are talking about the same thing) three times now and stopped. So no.

 I got em a while ago.....they are......well...........yea. Horrible. But stylistically very much paved the way for Adam West and his group.
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Offline Samsara

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #119 on: May 11, 2010, 09:58:46 AM »
Agreed. The TV show was what it was. It was funny, it entertained, and got me interested in Batman. I wish they would release that show on DVD at some point..

Have you seen the 40's batman?

I almost picked the episodes up on DVD (if we are talking about the same thing) three times now and stopped. So no.

 I got em a while ago.....they are......well...........yea. Horrible. But stylistically very much paved the way for Adam West and his group.

I was afraid of that. I doubt I'll be picking it up.

It's so weird though, when you think about some of what I said above (or on the blog) about getting the Batman/Bruce Wayne character and story "right." At the end of the day, it's just a person's interpretation of the character. I think, however, Nolan got what the majority of Bat-fans think is the correct take on the character.

The one thing I differ on with some people though, is Dick Grayson/Robin. I think the character, while its origins were campy, is absolutely necessary for realism and advancement/maturity of Bruce Wayne as a person.

I know this isn't what we were talking about, but I did want to throw my thoughts on it out there:

Here's the blog I wrote on it last summer...

Quote
Bring on 'The Boy Wonder'

If there is one thing all Bat-fans can agree on, it’s that the Robin character splits the fan base. Really, there is no middle ground. Either you like the Robin character and think he adds something to Batman/Bruce Wayne’s existence, or you despise him, thinking Robin is “campy” and a burden on the Batman world.

Friends, I’m firmly entrenched in the prior category. The Boy Wonder is very much a necessary part of the Bat-world. Let me explain why.

First, Dick Grayson/Robin makes Batman more real, more human. Let’s face it folks, one of the reasons we love Batman so much is that he’s essentially the only superhero that is realistic. Bruce Wayne taking Dick Grayson as his ward, and ultimately as his partner against crime, furthers the maturity and development of Bruce Wayne (the man) and Batman (the hero).

As Bruce gets older, goes through more “fake” relationships, carrying out his “cover” life as a rich, flamboyant playboy, a son, at least legitimately, isn’t possible. In comes Dick Grayson, whose parents are gone, and is full of anger, much like Bruce himself at the same age. So he mentors Dick, becomes a father figure, takes joy in Dick’s development as a person and at the same time, becomes more of a man himself, now that he is responsible for another human being. It’s a natural evolutionary step for Bruce Wayne.

For Batman, much the same is true. How long can one guy fight alone, in darkness, without a helping hand? How long until the crazed psychos that Batman deals with finally put a crack in the Caped Crusader’s resolve? Having a young partner (and ultimately, someone to take the mantle, eventually) gives Batman an heir, but more importantly, a partner and friend that will watch his back.

This of course brings risks (relying on another), but what doesn’t?

Of course, there are those out there like Bill Ramey (founder of Batman-on-Film) that can’t stand Robin in the slightest and think he’s a waste of time. To each his own, but while Robin may have been founded with the word “campy” in mind, to appeal to young kids, the character has evolved into much more than that.

So what spurred this blog on Robin?

Well, the aforementioned Batman-on-Film Web site recently threw up a link to MTV’s Splash page, where it asked what “Batman 3” rumor would we mostly likely want to see happen. While Bill’s ego is about on-par with the size of Texas (a joke, Bill, everything is bigger in Texas, right?), I’m sure he, like most of us, like the rumor of Johnny Depp to play the Riddler (and he could pull off the vision of The Riddler that I mention a couple of blogs ago).

Yet the interesting cast rumor on there had Shia LaBeouf as Robin. Wait, don’t start flipping out yet. It’s just a rumor, and probably an unlikely one. First, Shia is too old to play Robin. While it is true Dick Grayson is more like 12 or 13 when he’s introduced, realistically, the character needs to be in his mid-late teens when he starts as Robin to really work (just from a physical maturation perspeective). Shia, as young as he looks, ain’t pullin’ that one off, no matter how dopey his lines in the Transformers movies are.

Second, if Christopher Nolan is doing the third Batman film, I believe he’s already stated his vision of Batman doesn’t have Robin in it. So if we get what most Bat-fans want (Nolan returning), it is likely Robin will not make an appearance. Although, it should be noted, he said “Robin,” not “Dick Grayson.”

Personally, I believe there is a place for the latter toward the end of a third film. In one of my prior blog entries, I wrote a long description on the villains, but elected not to really draft a script of the film. One of things I would include in that third film would be introduction of Dick Grayson.

Why? Because I stated earlier, it continues Bruce Wayne’s character development. You don’t need Robin in a third film at all. But you do mix in the back story how Dick’s parents were killed, and see Bruce reaching out to a young man who went through what he did, albeit Bruce was a bit younger.

Anyway, there you have it. Yes, I’m a Robin fan. I’m not a “campy” Robin fan, but I do think the character is an absolutely necessary beacon of light in a character that gets notoriously dark and jaded over the years. While I like that, and it makes gritty films and comics, I prefer realism. And having Dick Grayson in Bruce Wayne’s life, just makes sense.

source: http://gothamcitytimes.blogspot.com/2009/07/bring-on-boy-wonder.html
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2010, 10:18:24 AM »
Hey wow, I completely disagree with that.  I think not only is Robin unnecessary, but he is in fact a liability, and tends to drag things down.  I read Batman comics fairly regularly throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and I don't ever remember a great Batman story that featured Robin.  I even hated him on Super Friends.

Batman works best on his own, not with Robin, not with Batgirl, and frankly, not in the Justice League, either.  Just my two cents.
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Offline Samsara

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2010, 10:23:38 AM »
Hey wow, I completely disagree with that.  I think not only is Robin unnecessary, but he is in fact a liability, and tends to drag things down.  I read Batman comics fairly regularly throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and I don't ever remember a great Batman story that featured Robin.  I even hated him on Super Friends.

Batman works best on his own, not with Robin, not with Batgirl, and frankly, not in the Justice League, either.  Just my two cents.

I thought you would disagree. That's one of the reasons I posted it. I actually agree with you on Batgirl and Justice League.

You didn't think the Batman story with Jason Todd getting blown away by the Joker (Death in the Family) was great? The emotional trauma Batman goes through? I thought that was a riveting character development moment. Sure, the whole Middle East-based thing was par for the course with political events at the time, but what happened with the character and events leading up to it was a great thing.

I also thought later on, the re-introduction of Robin through Tim Drake was another great storyline.

Robin was done campy until the 1990s. After that, the character had a different bent to it.
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Offline zerogravityfat

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2010, 10:24:57 AM »
Shia LaBeouf as Robin would be the end of days. There would be no need to go any further with humanity.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2010, 10:26:03 AM »
I think Robin might serve as a passing of the torch character. But not as a sidekick. And Bruce would have to be quite a bit older for that to work.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2010, 10:31:57 AM »
You didn't think the Batman story with Jason Todd getting blown away by the Joker (Death in the Family) was great? The emotional trauma Batman goes through? I thought that was a riveting character development moment. Sure, the whole Middle East-based thing was par for the course with political events at the time, but what happened with the character and events leading up to it was a great thing.
Well, it was great that Jason Todd was killed.  Do you remember that fans had to vote for who would die, Todd or the Joker?  That was no contest.  Jason Todd was awful.

I also thought later on, the re-introduction of Robin through Tim Drake was another great storyline.
*shrugs*  It was an unnecessary storyline.  I mean, sure, I liked Drake better than Todd, but neither was necessary.  Batman is best when solitary.

Robin was done campy until the 1990s. After that, the character had a different bent to it.
If you say so.  I even used to buy the Robin comic, hoping it would change my mind.  Never happened.
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Offline MykeHavoc

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #125 on: May 11, 2010, 10:52:44 AM »
I love Robin, but I think a lot of that came from growing up and always wanting to be him. I was the kid who dreamed of working along-side Bats, not actually being him. Plus, I grew up during the awesome run of the Tim Drake solo Robin comic to look to.
I think the relationship still has a lot of depth that could be analyzed, especially in the format of a film drama. I think it would continue perfectly with the whole "yin-yang" motif of Dark Knight. The development and growth of Bruce/Bats will always have a divisive element. I think him seeing someone experience the grief and guilt of the loss of their parents at a similar age will give him an outside perspective and the ability to teach and mentor the child the right way, perhaps even more so then he himself was. There can be maturity experienced for both characters. The father-son element is such an obvious and rich area the story could plunge into. Or even added drama of Bruce unconsciously and vicariously instilling Robin with whatever deep-seeded rage and revenge he still seeks and eventually letting that play itself out as the character grows. Perhaps you can get the "Death in the Family" elements in there. There is so much potential for character growth here, and I for one wouldn't shut out any avenue. So long as it is written well, anything can be made for compelling story-telling.

Offline Samsara

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2010, 12:17:42 PM »
hef:

Wouldn't you agree that Batman/Bruce Wayne, strictly in terms of character development, benefits from being put in a position to look out for someone other than himself?

I respect you're anti-Robin. You're not the first, and you are absolutely not going to be the last.  :lol I just happen to think that in regard to developing the character, Dick Grayson brings a whole new element to the life of Bruce Wayne and Batman and is an intriguing left turn that can lead to some great storytelling.

But I will say this - the campy stuff was ridiculous. But the dynamic between Wayne and Grayson, and that father role is really something I'd enjoy seeing done "correctly" in the future. It doesn't HAVE to be B3 (it would probably be overkill, in retrospect). But at some point, I'd like to see it done right.

p.s. But Robin must always have green, orange-red, and yellow. This black-red bullsh*t needs to end.  :lol

pps - Myke - EXACTLY.
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Offline MetalJunkie

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2010, 12:23:29 PM »
Hey wow, I completely disagree with that.  I think not only is Robin unnecessary, but he is in fact a liability, and tends to drag things down.  I read Batman comics fairly regularly throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and I don't ever remember a great Batman story that featured Robin.  I even hated him on Super Friends.

Batman works best on his own, not with Robin, not with Batgirl, and frankly, not in the Justice League, either.  Just my two cents.
There's a really good movie, really dark; it actually ended up being PG-13. The only time I've ever enjoyed Robin's presence:

Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker

Fucking masterpiece. I never even really watched the cartoon, but this was brilliant.
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Offline RandalGraves

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2010, 12:26:36 PM »
Hey wow, I completely disagree with that.  I think not only is Robin unnecessary, but he is in fact a liability, and tends to drag things down.  I read Batman comics fairly regularly throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and I don't ever remember a great Batman story that featured Robin.  I even hated him on Super Friends.

Batman works best on his own, not with Robin, not with Batgirl, and frankly, not in the Justice League, either.  Just my two cents.
There's a really good movie, really dark; it actually ended up being PG-13. The only time I've ever enjoyed Robin's presence:

Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker

Fucking masterpiece. I never even really watched the cartoon, but this was brilliant.

I'll take that a step further, in that I never really enjoyed Batman Beyond until that flick.  Especially given that the new Batman was able to take down the villain like Bruce Wayne never could, because he wasn't Bruce Wayne.  Sounds kinda silly written out, but it makes sense in the story.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #129 on: May 11, 2010, 12:28:23 PM »
p.s. But Robin must always have green, orange-red, and yellow. This black-red bullsh*t needs to end.  :lol

No.

1.  The only argument for it is nostalgia and that's not a good reason to do anything.  If you disagree, I will force you to watch Journey's last live DVD until you change your mind.
2.  In and of itself, it's campy and silly looking.  
3.  Batman does a lot of what he does by stealth, in the dark, at night.  Red, yellow, and green, or any other combination that screams out "hey bad guys!  Here I am!" is not a good thing.
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Offline MetalJunkie

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2010, 12:38:53 PM »
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #131 on: May 11, 2010, 12:48:44 PM »
Robin gives Batman character development, but not the kind I'm really interested in. The most interesting parts of Batman are how his personal demons drive him into a literal psychosis that makes him put on a Bat suit and fight people who somehow make him look sane. In a larger sense, Robin just proves the obvious, Wayne has zero capacity to really parent children. Beyond that, I just don't understand what Robin can be used to show about Batman that Alfred or other secondary characters can be.
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Offline zerogravityfat

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #132 on: May 11, 2010, 01:20:30 PM »


are you by any chance going to rock me like a hurricane?
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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #133 on: May 11, 2010, 01:30:57 PM »
Hey wow, I completely disagree with that.  I think not only is Robin unnecessary, but he is in fact a liability, and tends to drag things down.  I read Batman comics fairly regularly throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and I don't ever remember a great Batman story that featured Robin.  I even hated him on Super Friends.

Batman works best on his own, not with Robin, not with Batgirl, and frankly, not in the Justice League, either.  Just my two cents.
There's a really good movie, really dark; it actually ended up being PG-13. The only time I've ever enjoyed Robin's presence:

Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker

Fucking masterpiece. I never even really watched the cartoon, but this was brilliant.

I'll take that a step further, in that I never really enjoyed Batman Beyond until that flick.  Especially given that the new Batman was able to take down the villain like Bruce Wayne never could, because he wasn't Bruce Wayne.  Sounds kinda silly written out, but it makes sense in the story.

All of this.
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Offline MetalJunkie

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #134 on: May 11, 2010, 03:17:04 PM »
Listen! Do you smell something?

Offline Samsara

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #135 on: May 11, 2010, 03:23:12 PM »
p.s. But Robin must always have green, orange-red, and yellow. This black-red bullsh*t needs to end.  :lol

No.

1.  The only argument for it is nostalgia and that's not a good reason to do anything.  If you disagree, I will force you to watch Journey's last live DVD until you change your mind.
2.  In and of itself, it's campy and silly looking.  
3.  Batman does a lot of what he does by stealth, in the dark, at night.  Red, yellow, and green, or any other combination that screams out "hey bad guys!  Here I am!" is not a good thing.


You are incorrect.

The colors are good. Now keep your trap shut before I subject you to listening to Winger's "Can't Get Enuff" on repeat.  :lol
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Offline Samsara

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #136 on: May 11, 2010, 03:28:15 PM »
Robin gives Batman character development, but not the kind I'm really interested in. The most interesting parts of Batman are how his personal demons drive him into a literal psychosis that makes him put on a Bat suit and fight people who somehow make him look sane. In a larger sense, Robin just proves the obvious, Wayne has zero capacity to really parent children. Beyond that, I just don't understand what Robin can be used to show about Batman that Alfred or other secondary characters can be.

Robin shows that Batman is indeed human, after having to immerse himself into another persona. His injection into Batman's world saves Batman/Bruce Wayne's sanity...avoiding the tunnel vision and keeping Batman from pushing the envelope too far (and thus making sure he doesn't become one of the psychotic nuts he is hunting). That's how I always envisioned the need for Robin. A more human element to a "job" that could break a man's mental stability or push it over the edge.

This has been debated for years, so it's not likely anyone is going to change anyone else's mind.  :lol But it's always cool to see some of the passionate responses to something that splits a fanbase.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #137 on: May 11, 2010, 05:09:43 PM »
hef:

Wouldn't you agree that Batman/Bruce Wayne, strictly in terms of character development, benefits from being put in a position to look out for someone other than himself?
No.

I respect you're anti-Robin. You're not the first, and you are absolutely not going to be the last.  :lol I just happen to think that in regard to developing the character, Dick Grayson brings a whole new element to the life of Bruce Wayne and Batman and is an intriguing left turn that can lead to some great storytelling.
If Bruce Wayne started molesting dead horses, that would also be an intriguing left turn that could lead to some great storytelling.

But I will say this - the campy stuff was ridiculous. But the dynamic between Wayne and Grayson, and that father role is really something I'd enjoy seeing done "correctly" in the future. It doesn't HAVE to be B3 (it would probably be overkill, in retrospect). But at some point, I'd like to see it done right.
There is nothing in Bruce Wayne's background to indicate that he could possibly be a good father.  The whole concept just makes no sense to me.  Robin seems like a dumbing-down of the character to me.

p.s. But Robin must always have green, orange-red, and yellow. This black-red bullsh*t needs to end.  :lol
I'm with bosky, those day-glo colors are awful.  They make no sense in conjunction with Batman's character...kind of like the rest of Robin.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #138 on: May 11, 2010, 05:15:16 PM »
If Bruce Wayne started molesting dead horses, that would also be an intriguing left turn that could lead to some great storytelling.

I think I remember a story arc in one of the comics that did that.  Gave a whole new meaning to the term "crossover."  :eyebrows:

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Offline Adami

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Re: Batman 3
« Reply #139 on: May 11, 2010, 05:15:28 PM »
Batman 3: Raping Dead Horses.
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