"Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT

[robwebster]

Oh ariich you do know how to flatter a lady.

If I'm honest I like to make my posts interesting to read, if at all possible. Can't take anything seriously, that's my problem. Well, I can, but I like to counteract it with a bit of funny. Who wants to read someone being austere about the syncopated rhythms in Metropolis? Bah! Boring! I've got a life to live! Chuck in a nob gag! No point discussing something if you're not enjoying it. If I wanted to do something I didn't enjoy I'd just be sat here knitting a vest for a dog or something. No, make that a snake. I like dogs too much. Which is horribly pretentious but hey, I enjoy myself.

But yeah, sorry Samsara. Does look like this is just hideously crossed wires. You work with bosk, don't you? Which would make you a lawyer? So yeah, that kinda gels! Sorry. My bad, really. I promise that if I'm ever in a court of law, I will be deadly serious. ...ish.

[ariich]

No point discussing something if you're not enjoying it.

This is the crux of it really. It's the reason most of us post here!

[robwebster]

No point discussing something if you're not enjoying it.

This is the crux of it really. It's the reason most of us post here!

Well, yeah, exactly! When it comes down to it, I enjoy Dream Theater far more than is probably healthy, so naturally there eventually came a point in my life where I realised I'd have to either join a message board, or start writing Dream Theater fanfiction.

I figured the message board was marginally more socially acceptable.

Marginally.

[contest_sanity]

I wanted to add this quote as well since people have been alluding to it without actually citing it (it's the English major in me):

“It has been proved time and time again that when you have a line-up, and especially a singer, that people grew up listening to, that’s it.  That’s the band people want to hear.  In all of those cases there will be people that don’t like Yes because of Jon Anderson’s voice or don’t like Iron Maiden because of Bruce Dickinson, but it didn’t matter.  And it’s the same with us.  This is who we are.  He is the right singer for Dream Theater.  If we can never crossover to appeal to X amount of people because of our style of singer, then so be it.  Take us or leave us…” (Mike Portnoy, p. 287 Lifting Shadows, 2nd ed.)

So, I don't think MP is doing "growls" to crossover for more mainstream success.  I think he just heard growling vocals in his mind's eye (ear?) for that section of ANTR.  What's ironic to me, reading this thread and the other one about whether or not DT has become too metal at the expense of prog, is that the use of these types of vocals is actually a way that Dream Theater is progressing and not doing the same thing they've always done.  So -- you could argue that such moments as the ANTR "growling" section are actually DT at their most progressive as of late.

Now, I'm in full agreement that MP/JP ought to let JLB have as much of a say as he wants to, especially in regards to melodies -- but I don't think this precludes the possibility of someone else singing a lead vocal now and then.

[Plasmastrike]

This thread delivers.

On topic: Less.

[KevShmev]

I can't think of any polls that were held about his vocal section in that song (or his growl vocals in general) on here or MP.com where people who actually liked Mike growls lost by anything less than a huge margin like this one.

Shortly after the release of BC&SL, there was a poll about it at mp.com, I remember a lot of people voting, and the results were pretty lopsided in favor of people not liking that vocal section.  Of course, the entire thread was then deleted, and Portnoy's thread about how they came to do those vocals came not long after.  Okay, I found the results in another forum where they had been posted at the time:

Portnoy's lead vocal section in "A Nightmare to Remember" - What do you think of it?

Love it 15% (60)
Like it 15% (61)
Am indifferent towards it 9% (39)
Don't care for it, but I can deal with it 28% (113)
Hate it 31% (123)

Total Votes: 396

[Perpetual Change]

That's exactly the poll I remember seeing while lurking at MP.com.

70 percent of fans on the man's forums saying they either hated it, didn't care for it, or were completely indifferent toward it is a horrible sign.  That'd be like 70 percent of users at DTF saying they hated, didn't care for, or were completely indifferent toward Black Clouds & Silver Linings.  

And you know what? As much as I don't care for those vocals, that part makes for such a fun live experience.  Just like Constant Motion does (which is why the band continue to play it). I can totally see where Mike was going with it; too bad it kinda messes with the overall vibe of the song.  I think if I could be DT's "producer," on SC I'd keep Mike's parts on Constant Motion but get rid of his parts in PoW and his doubling on The Dark Eternal Night (I'd like to have heard the more melodic singing Petrucci originally intended). On BC&SL, I'd leave him alone on Tuscany, and I'm really not sure what'd I'd do about ANtR.  I can totally see why it was such a hard call for the band.

Regardless, I think it might still be safe to say that Mike's got the message.  Obviously the man who can do this knows how to swallow his pride:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU&feature=related

(BTW, boring ass crowd totally contradicts what I said about it being a cool live part. Oh well.)

[KevShmev]

Yeah, I would imagine that part would go over well live, especially when you consider how rocking the music is. 

And to be fair, that poll was conducted right after the album came out, so it is possible that some or many grew to like that part, so who knows what the results would look like now over there (and I ain't gonna be the one to start the poll either! ).

[orcus116]

That crowd for that songs reminds me of the crowd at the BTBAM show when they played Swim To The Moon. Same amount of newness, almost the same amount of 

[j]

So, I don't think MP is doing "growls" to crossover for more mainstream success.  I think he just heard growling vocals in his mind's eye (ear?) for that section of ANTR.  What's ironic to me, reading this thread and the other one about whether or not DT has become too metal at the expense of prog, is that the use of these types of vocals is actually a way that Dream Theater is progressing and not doing the same thing they've always done.  So -- you could argue that such moments as the ANTR "growling" section are actually DT at their most progressive as of late.

Now, I'm in full agreement that MP/JP ought to let JLB have as much of a say as he wants to, especially in regards to melodies -- but I don't think this precludes the possibility of someone else singing a lead vocal now and then.

Excellent points, especially the bolded part.  Overall, you could say BC&SL was a little too run-of-the-mill DT (I sort of feel that way).  But they tried some new things here and there, many of them with good results.  Even if Portnoy's vocal section in ANTR doesn't really fit the lyrics (which it doesn't, IMO), it fits the music fine and Portnoy pulls it off.  He's a good backing vocalist, and I don't mind him doing a spot of lead vocals once in awhile, should the need arise.

-J

[Perpetual Change]

Yeah, but that's cause with DT you have a bunch of instrument geeks listening closely to hear if the band is playing flawlessly or not.  They want to hear John solo, they want to hear if Mike misses his fills, they want to hear above all if James is on or not.  Whenever I watch a DT DVD filmed in the US, I'm always disappointed by how little the crowd is moving.

At more recent Between the Buried and Me shows, you have teenagers and young adults who grew up with metalcore and want to hear br00tal listening to a dirty organ solo.  I stood in line at one of these shows, and nearly everyone I talked to commented on how badly they wished BtBaM would go back to their pre-Alaskan roots.

[reneranucci]

Well, DT will stil do whatever they want, and satisfy their fanbase: some more, some less. As it should be.

[orcus116]

What's ironic to me, reading this thread and the other one about whether or not DT has become too metal at the expense of prog, is that the use of these types of vocals is actually a way that Dream Theater is progressing and not doing the same thing they've always done.  So -- you could argue that such moments as the ANTR "growling" section are actually DT at their most progressive as of late.

Maybe I'm too picky but simply trying some growling vocals here and using a new patch there is not progressing. Sure you're playing around with something new but that's trivial compared to actually creating a new style of music or fusing two genres that haven't been fused. Maybe using some classical music inspired prog to blend into funk or electronica or something. That is progressive.

[Plasmastrike]

What's ironic to me, reading this thread and the other one about whether or not DT has become too metal at the expense of prog, is that the use of these types of vocals is actually a way that Dream Theater is progressing and not doing the same thing they've always done.  So -- you could argue that such moments as the ANTR "growling" section are actually DT at their most progressive as of late.

Maybe I'm too picky but simply trying some growling vocals here and using a new patch there is not progressing. Sure you're playing around with something new but that's trivial compared to actually creating a new style of music or fusing two genres that haven't been fused. Maybe using some classical music inspired prog to blend into funk or electronica or something. That is progressive.

I wouldn't say you're too picky. I see where you're coming from.

[Setlist Scotty]

What's ironic to me, reading this thread and the other one about whether or not DT has become too metal at the expense of prog, is that the use of these types of vocals is actually a way that Dream Theater is progressing and not doing the same thing they've always done.  So -- you could argue that such moments as the ANTR "growling" section are actually DT at their most progressive as of late.

Maybe I'm too picky but simply trying some growling vocals here and using a new patch there is not progressing. Sure you're playing around with something new but that's trivial compared to actually creating a new style of music or fusing two genres that haven't been fused. Maybe using some classical music inspired prog to blend into funk or electronica or something. That is progressive.

I fully agree with you Orcus. I might add that just because a band is supposedly "progressing" doesn't mean that the direction chosen was a wise choice. Need proof? Two bands that show how to do it wrong: Metallica and Queenswrëck. Metallica finally got it together; Queenswrëck is beyond hopeless. Both tried to do different stuff in an effort to progress, going beyond their core sounds, and look at the results - many long time fans threw up their hands in disgust. Even MP was very critical of the output by both bands for that very reason (that they left their core sound). Sure Metallica still gained in popularity, altho I personally would question how much they'd have gained in popularity if not for the black album. Nonetheless, they pretty much have turned their back on those 3 albums (Load, Reload, St. Anger) in live shows - why? Surely there are plenty of fans that wanna hear Load/Reload stuff. Probably because they realize what a HUGE mistake it was to put those albums out. Here's to hoping that DT doesn't continue down a similar path with cookie monster vocals...

[Perpetual Change]

Yeah, I also agree. Simply growling when you're not known for it isn't progressing.  Having Cabaret dancers at your shows isn't progressive.  Just like playing a Muse sounding song when you haven't done it before isn't really progressive, but blending something Muse would do with your core sound, throwing some classic prog influences in, and then adding that new Opeth influence into the blender as an afterthought later would be.

ANtR is a progressive song, by that standard, but not because it has growls.  It's progressive because it's a rockin' song that turns into a really mellow song that turns into a really heavy death metal song that turns into a weird sounding instrumental before coming back around.  Blending styles again is what makes BC&SL better than anything done since SDOIT. For some reason, after making ToT, DT starting writing songs to fit certain genre parameters; i.e. instead of a ballad with an awesome prog section (Surrounded) we're gonna do a ballad that sounds like a ballad a band that wanted to write a ballad would write (TALW, IWBY). I'm glad it seems like they realize that wasn't the best idea and are done writing that way.

[ariich]

What's ironic to me, reading this thread and the other one about whether or not DT has become too metal at the expense of prog, is that the use of these types of vocals is actually a way that Dream Theater is progressing and not doing the same thing they've always done.  So -- you could argue that such moments as the ANTR "growling" section are actually DT at their most progressive as of late.

Maybe I'm too picky but simply trying some growling vocals here and using a new patch there is not progressing. Sure you're playing around with something new but that's trivial compared to actually creating a new style of music or fusing two genres that haven't been fused. Maybe using some classical music inspired prog to blend into funk or electronica or something. That is progressive.

Well, while I really enjoy fusings of styles, I think that simply doing that is still not progressive. Even doing something that has never been done before (which, lets face it, is next to impossible now) just for the sake of it is not progressive, and at most could be called experimental. Really it comes down to whether you're trying new things for the sake of it, or because it fits creatively with what you want to do.

[Scurvy!Dreams]

Tell that to Queen. They had arguably the best vocalist around, yet the other guys still got involved. Yet somehow Freddie's still managed to make an impression. Wonder why that is.

But Mike and JP don't compare to "the other guys". Even though Mike did do a respectable job of imitating Queen recently, he's not on that level and doesn't write the amazing vocal lines and harmonies that Queen could.

Though, to back-peddle a bit, the harmonies on SFAM are quite good. That's the only context in which I want to hear vocals from anyone but James.

[Mladen]

Though, to back-peddle a bit, the harmonies on SFAM are quite good. That's the only context in which I want to hear vocals from anyone but James.

Oh yeah, completely forgot about that. It's some really good job, especially on Fatal tragedy.

[black_biff_stadler]

Don't have time to read this thread right now but I will say that I was pleasantly surprised to hear a full section devoted to MP in A Nightmare to Remember and as someone who ain't that keen on JLB's vox it was a refreshing change of pace imo. Only thing is for me to want more of it I'd have to hear him getting continually better on it album to album. I realize he's still a little new to this style so I'd like to see him add a little grit to it and sound just a touch more confident in his delivery. Those minor bits aside, I'd welcome it gladly as the vox in DT's metal songs need adequate "balls and chunk" to match the music. JLB's a very talented singer but not always a perfect match for heavy songs.

[black_biff_stadler]

Though, to back-peddle a bit, the harmonies on SFAM are quite good. That's the only context in which I want to hear vocals from anyone but James.

Oh yeah, completely forgot about that. It's some really good job, especially on Fatal tragedy.

"You can eat my ass and baaaalls!" 

[hefdaddy42]

Queenswrëck

lol

Also, *opens up prog/progressive can of worms* while DT has always been a prog band, they haven't really been all that progressive in a long time.

[ariich]

Well, or ever really. Awake and maybe SDOIT are their only albums that I might consider progressive.

[robwebster]

Ooh, not Images and Words?

That's the one that inspired a genre. I mean it wasn't the first, Fates Warning were doing a similar thing a few years before they came along, but Images and Words became kinda the acceptable face of progressive metal.

I fully agree with you Orcus. I might add that just because a band is supposedly "progressing" doesn't mean that the direction chosen was a wise choice. Need proof? Two bands that show how to do it wrong: Metallica and Queenswrëck. Metallica finally got it together; Queenswrëck is beyond hopeless. Both tried to do different stuff in an effort to progress, going beyond their core sounds, and look at the results - many long time fans threw up their hands in disgust. Even MP was very critical of the output by both bands for that very reason (that they left their core sound). Sure Metallica still gained in popularity, altho I personally would question how much they'd have gained in popularity if not for the black album. Nonetheless, they pretty much have turned their back on those 3 albums (Load, Reload, St. Anger) in live shows - why? Surely there are plenty of fans that wanna hear Load/Reload stuff. Probably because they realize what a HUGE mistake it was to put those albums out. Here's to hoping that DT doesn't continue down a similar path with cookie monster vocals...

I don't know. I don't think they're planning on using cookie monster vocals very much. I mean, at worst, they're going to be occasional injections. Mike's backing, though, has actually added quite a lot. Even the gruffer bits.

Full Circle would be a lot more dull without MP - and that's part of one of the best received songs of the entire decade. Which also climaxes in the closest performance James LaBrie has done to cookie monster vocals. And then there's The Glass Prison. Heck, for Prophets of War his falsetto screams are positively the highlight. And you've got the fantastic cover of Flick of the Wrist.

I dunno. Three out of four of those are fan favourites. And I mean, if we look back, he's only really prominent on eleven tracks or so total. Entire career.

But Mike and JP don't compare to "the other guys". Even though Mike did do a respectable job of imitating Queen recently, he's not on that level and doesn't write the amazing vocal lines and harmonies that Queen could.

Good! Wouldn't want them to. Nah, I know what you mean. But "well, they're not quite Queen!" is a pretty weak slur. They clearly can write good harmonies. Again, Don't Look Past Me is absolutely fantastic, and completely different. Scenes is full of 'em, as you say. I Walk Beside You actually has some really lush stuff going on, too. That kind of stuff would be lovely.

...but tangential, come to think of it! We're talking about the gruffer stuff. All I was saying is that there's nothing inherently wrong with giving the backing vocalists a few more roles, and it won't necessarily reflect badly on JLB. If Freddie Mercury of all people reckoned there was a place for other vocalists in his bands to sing music that he was more than capable of doing himself, I'm sure James LaBrie won't mind sitting back for a little while Mikeyboy takes the rougher stuff that he can't quite reach.

[contest_sanity]

I think we're all working off of different definitions of the word "progressive."  For some it seems to be a certain "sound."  Others, an attitude.  Still others, something else.  I consider DT progressive metal, and, thereby, consider every single one of their albums to be progressive.  Now, how much "progress" varies between different albums is open to debate, but I consider things like the "growl" vocals an element of being progressive.  Same thing with doing a 'Muse' song or a 'U2' song.  It's something new, something experimental.  Of course, these experiments may not always be effective (even though I think most of them are), and that likely influences whether or not fans will consider them "progressive" instead of just plain bad musical choices.

[orcus116]

How is sounding like anotherf band experimental? That's pretty much the opposite of experimental.

[contest_sanity]

I mean that sitting around and saying, "Hey - why don't we try and write a Muse-type song" (which seems to be, based on Lifting Shadows, what they did) is precisely a musical experiment.  I don't deem it be unoriginal or, worse, "ripping off," but rather a simple case of "let's write a song in that vein."  It's like when The Beatles did the Beach Boys in "Back In The U.S.S.R."  It's doing something just to see if you can, which I, at least, regard as experimental enough to warrant the term "progressive."  Others obviously disagree.  But that Dream Theater have succeeded these past few albums of making songs in various different veins (U2, Muse, Evanescence, etc.) is a testament, not an affront, to their musical ability.

[hefdaddy42]

What you're describing isn't progressive by any definition of the word.

[contest_sanity]

What you're describing isn't progressive by any definition of the word.

Is there a definitive definition of "progressive" or "progressive metal" as it relates to music?  If so, I don't know what it is.

[hefdaddy42]

There's a definition of "progressive."  You can find that in any dicitionary.

Progressive rock (and it's subgenre progressive metal) normally applies to the characteristics applicable to the kinds of music the originators of the genre (like Yes, Genesis, Camel, Caravan, Pink Floyd, etc) used: odd time signatures, time changes, long-form compositions, multi-part songs, virtuoso musicians, etc. 

I've seen opinions run the gamut over which is "better," but if you call a band "prog" you can bet they will exhibit at least some of the characteristics I listed as part of their style.

Imitating another band's style is not progressive by any definition.

[contest_sanity]

There's a definition of "progressive."  You can find that in any dicitionary.

What's a dictionary?

"Promoting or favoring progress towards improved conditions or new policies, ideas or methods." (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/progressive)

Wouldn't this count as a new idea or method?  I understand that songs like IWBY or Never Enough may not sound typically "progressive" to some, but I still feel that the definition fits as part of DT's outlook in trying something new with the method of writing an entire song in the vein of another band.

[orcus116]

If that's your definition then pretty much anything any band does is progressive.

I dunno maybe hef can argue a little better since I'm getting frustrated trying to wrap my head around this. Bottom line is that imitating a band is about as far removed from experimentation and originality you can get aside from copying yourself.

[Perpetual Change]

What contest is saying is that those elements which defined the progressive rock bands in the 70s aren't really progressive anymore.  Kind of like being in a union in the 21st century doesn't make you progressive.  For some, DT were never progressive because they sounded like the bands from the 70s; they were progressive because they took that sound and updated it for a modern audience.  Likewise, continuing to "update" the sound keeps them progressive.

I disagree.  Muddying what progressive means in politics and what it means in music leads you to a dead-end where anything suddenly becomes prog.

There's a genre of music called progressive.  It has the elements that were listed. Transatlantic doesn't innovate at all, but they're still progressive rock because they have those elements the bands that created the genre have.  Fates Warning and Dream Theater are prog too because they share those common elements, not because they're more modern.  Same goes for Between the Buried and Me-- they're not prog because they do long songs with tempo changes but they included growls.

Bands like O.S.I. are better described as "experimental."

Seems to me that in music, "progressive" has a very set definition, and "experimental" is better suited to describe greater notions of what the world "progressive" means in general.

[hefdaddy42]

There's a definition of "progressive."  You can find that in any dicitionary.

What's a dictionary?

"Promoting or favoring progress towards improved conditions or new policies, ideas or methods." (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/progressive)

Wouldn't this count as a new idea or method?  I understand that songs like IWBY or Never Enough may not sound typically "progressive" to some, but I still feel that the definition fits as part of DT's outlook in trying something new with the method of writing an entire song in the vein of another band.

How does imitating someone else count as a new idea or method?

[antigoon]

I think a distinction needs to be made between truly progressive music and "prog," the genre.