DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...

[bosk1]

And for that matter, it's also possible that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.

[inoku]

that's why I'm curious to know..
well now they still have 1 album to go, assuming the possibility that they won't renew the contract.
with 1 album to go, I think they should take a break and dont force themselves.
maybe with the break they will comeback with full force write the 11th album.

[antigoon]

I don't know why they would leave Roadrunner, though. They seem pretty content.

[Perpetual Change]

Well, that is "way later," is it not?

Granted I wasn't around the internet back then and only started lurking circa Train of Thought, I didn't know too much about DT.  But my general impression was always that people didn't start talking about the vocal accident until around that time.

[j]

  To this day John has said that he doesn't regret at all the cooperation he gave to the label during the making of Falling Into Infinity, and feels he's improved tremendously by having artists like Desmond Child help him write "singles."

Damn he said that?  The help of other artists and whatnot is fine (even great) of course, but he honestly thinks Desmond Child contributed something positive to something he wrote?

Considering Desmond Child is considered a songwriting genius by a lot of people, why wouldn't John Petrucci think that?  Even though the only song he is credited on with the band was a major clunker, it is very likely that some of his ideas and whatnot for writing songs rubbed off on Petrucci and showed up in other songs, and that is what JP is talking about.

I was assuming all he worked on was You Not Me, which probably shows my ignorance of the recording process, etc (i.e. it's possible he made some contributions to FII that he didn't get credit for).  Still, out of curiosity, I'd like to see the quote where Petrucci says he "improved tremendously from learning how to write 'singles'", or whatever.

And for that matter, it's also positive that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.

Is it?

-J

[contest_sanity]

And for that matter, it's also positive that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.

Interesting then that they've only played the song 3 times or so.  What does that say?  I wonder what kind of input the rest of the band has regarding setlists?  Are they just given the setlists by MP?  Is there discussion about particular songs certain band members might want to play?  I don't know.  Perhaps others have some insight.

[reneranucci]

Surely Setlist Scotty can speak on this matter, but I think that just like in many other DT issues, MP does it because nobody else in the band wants to do it. He takes care of constructing the setlists and is open to any kind of recommendations, but I don´t see the other guys given him much input about it. He cares a lot, the other 4 members... not that much, probably.

[Martinman300]

I think it would be awesome if they had a break, did some side projects etc, and then cam out with a huge world tour BEFORE DOING ANOTHER ALBUM.

That way they aren't obliged to focus on any album so we can songs like ACOS and stuff played again.

Haven't thought of that, but it's a brilliant idea.

This.

[Perpetual Change]

And for that matter, it's also positive that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.

Neither do I.

[Setlist Scotty]

I wonder what kind of input the rest of the band has regarding setlists?  Are they just given the setlists by MP?  Is there discussion about particular songs certain band members might want to play?  I don't know.  Perhaps others have some insight.

Way back in the day (I assume the Majesty and WDaDU days, and maybe part of the IaW tour) there was more of a democracy when it came to putting together the setlist...or at least an attempt at democracy. But of course there was bickering over what the setlists would be, and eventually MP won out. I don't think there is much discussion about particular songs band members might wanna play, if any at all.

The only specific instance I know of a setlist issue was when MP wanted to do Ozzy's Revelation (Mother Earth) and JL strongly requested not doing the track - they ended up doing Diary of a Madman instead.

I do know that pretty much everyone aside from MP would be happy not to play anything from the Majesty demos or WDaDU, but fortunately MP makes sure these are included. So it would appear that MP pretty much controls the setlists and the other guys just follow the direction they're given, unless they are really against it, as was the case with Revelation (Mother Earth).

[bosk1]

And for that matter, it's also positive that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.

Interesting then that they've only played the song 3 times or so.  What does that say?  I wonder what kind of input the rest of the band has regarding setlists?  Are they just given the setlists by MP?  Is there discussion about particular songs certain band members might want to play?  I don't know.  Perhaps others have some insight.

Sorry, that was a typo.  I mean to say:  "And for that matter, it's also possible that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker."

[Plasmastrike]

All I will say is that there are almost certainly specifics that didn't make the press release.  But given the fact that subsequent reports from the DT camp have included the fact that future tours will be in the "Evening With" format, and the fact of the recording for God of War, indicates that there are no serious personality conflicts or any other serious issues.  I think the break will be good for them all the way around.

Very well put. My thoughts exactly.

[Samsara]

And for that matter, it's also possible that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.

And if that is true, I fully agree with JP. It's a good song as it appears on the record, and a very good radio single. It's better than the demo, in this fan's opinion and that's what you want...demos taken and improved upon.

[TAC]

I'm sorry, I bought FII the day it came out, and as soon as I heard that song, I thought..well THIS is over. What happened to the band I loved.

[hefdaddy42]

I'm sorry, I bought FII the day it came out, and as soon as I heard that song, I thought..well THIS is over. What happened to the band I loved.

+ 1

[emindead]

When a friend and I were getting into DT and we heard that song, we knew that we were witnessing one terrible song that each great band has. It's a boy-band single. We even did a choreography to that song.

[LCArenas]

It's a boy-band single. We even did a choreography to that song.

Like Derek Sherinian in the 5YiaLT DVD? I need to make a gif out of that part

Same here. I mean, all I heard was a band I was getting into singing "Watching You Run is Making Me Lazy" in the middle of a porn-like riff. It wasn't awful... But it was bad, and it wasn't DT.

[contest_sanity]

I wonder what kind of input the rest of the band has regarding setlists?  Are they just given the setlists by MP?  Is there discussion about particular songs certain band members might want to play?  I don't know.  Perhaps others have some insight.

Way back in the day (I assume the Majesty and WDaDU days, and maybe part of the IaW tour) there was more of a democracy when it came to putting together the setlist...or at least an attempt at democracy. But of course there was bickering over what the setlists would be, and eventually MP won out. I don't think there is much discussion about particular songs band members might wanna play, if any at all.

The only specific instance I know of a setlist issue was when MP wanted to do Ozzy's Revelation (Mother Earth) and JL strongly requested not doing the track - they ended up doing Diary of a Madman instead.

I do know that pretty much everyone aside from MP would be happy not to play anything from the Majesty demos or WDaDU, but fortunately MP makes sure these are included. So it would appear that MP pretty much controls the setlists and the other guys just follow the direction they're given, unless they are really against it, as was the case with Revelation (Mother Earth).

This is all very interesting information.  Thanks!  Strange that no one but MP wants to play anything from WDaDU or before.  Are they tired of those songs, or feel like those songs are a little too immature?  Anyway, I'm glad they play them, even if it is only by MP's sovereign decree.  I also think it a little strange that seemingly none of the other band members have strong feelings about maybe wanting to play certain songs.  But I guess that's just the way it works.  Cool detail about the Ozzy thing too; I remember that incident being mentioned in the book, but they didn't reveal the song title.

[Perpetual Change]

I don't find the WDADU thing that odd.  James doesn't sound great on it, Jordan has no emotional attachment to it, John P likes focusing on the new stuff, and it's likely not to get a great fan reaction.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't find the WDADU thing that odd.  James doesn't sound great on it, Jordan has no emotional attachment to it, John P likes focusing on the new stuff, and it's likely not to get a great fan reaction.

All of this. While WDADU clearly has its fans, overall I don't think the songs are that well known and called for live. And with 9 albums worth of other material to get through, it doesn't make sense to put too much WDADU material in there.

[Setlist Scotty]

Strange that no one but MP wants to play anything from WDaDU or before.  Are they tired of those songs, or feel like those songs are a little too immature?

Neither James or Jordan had anything to do with the Majesty demos or WDaDU, so neither of them really care about those songs - as was already said, they have no emotional attachment. And JP and I believe JM both view those early songs as being immature, which is why they're not interested in playing them.

[j]

And for that matter, it's also possible that, despite what a lot of fans think, JP does not consider that particular song a clunker.

And if that is true, I fully agree with JP. It's a good song as it appears on the record, and a very good radio single. It's better than the demo, in this fan's opinion and that's what you want...demos taken and improved upon.

Gotta strongly disagree with you there.  I think it's bad, as a single or otherwise, and I think the demo is--while still not a great song--significantly better.  These untrained ears cannot detect anything positive that Child might have added to the final product.  And I have no problem with "singles" in general like some here seem to: some of the best songs ever have been singles, and there are a LOT of great ones.

But whether or not Petrucci is happy with the outcome is all that matters with regard to this discussion.  I'd still be interested to see that quote, if PC or anybody has time to dig it up.

-J

[contest_sanity]

Good points to all who pointed out why the rest of the band isn't big on playing the debut album live; it makes sense.  Although, if the worry is that some of the songs are immature, I don't see how they would be any more so than some of the crazy instrumental sections that threaten to derail newer tracks (Endless Sacrifice, TMoLS).  Anyway, perhaps JP and MP can compromise by dropping WDaDU tracks for a tour and adding You Not Me, that is, if we can actually establish that JP does in fact like the album version of the track.

[BlobVanDam]

Good points to all who pointed out why the rest of the band isn't big on playing the debut album live; it makes sense.  Although, if the worry is that some of the songs are immature, I don't see how they would be any more so than some of the crazy instrumental sections that threaten to derail newer tracks (Endless Sacrifice, TMoLS).  Anyway, perhaps JP and MP can compromise by dropping WDaDU tracks for a tour and adding You Not Me, that is, if we can actually establish that JP does in fact like the album version of the track.

Huge difference between a section you don't feel fits, and a whole song (and album) that is poorly written by amateurs.

[Perpetual Change]

I don't know, there's a couple great songs on WDADU.  I can see why the band and fans wouldn't want them played so much, but I'd be more than happy to hear Status Seeker or The Killing Hand at any future DT show I attend.

[hefdaddy42]

I think that about half of WDADU still kind of holds up and sounds OK, and the other half is a little silly.

[contest_sanity]

See, I'd love to hear pretty much anything off of WDADU live.  I don't feel like the tunes are silly or immature at all, although I understand a lot of artists look back on their 1st records with some measure of disdain. 

Good points to all who pointed out why the rest of the band isn't big on playing the debut album live; it makes sense.  Although, if the worry is that some of the songs are immature, I don't see how they would be any more so than some of the crazy instrumental sections that threaten to derail newer tracks (Endless Sacrifice, TMoLS).  Anyway, perhaps JP and MP can compromise by dropping WDaDU tracks for a tour and adding You Not Me, that is, if we can actually establish that JP does in fact like the album version of the track.

Huge difference between a section you don't feel fits, and a whole song (and album) that is poorly written by amateurs.

Yes - that's a fair point about the difference between sections and songs.  However, witness the people (as in the Endless Sacrifice thread going right now) who say the instrumental portion ruins the entire song for them and that they no longer listen to it.  In that case, not that much different than if the entire song is deemed unlistenable.  On the level of an album, however, it's obviously a bit different if one feels that it's primarily an immature, self-indulgent barrage of notes written by Berklee dropouts.  I don't agree with that assessment, and yet I can see why others (including members of the band) might.

[BlobVanDam]

I think that about half of WDADU still kind of holds up and sounds OK, and the other half is a little silly.

Yeah, that sounds about right. Even I consider 4/8 to be pretty decent songs, but the other half are kinda embarrassing for DT to be playing. Even worse with the Majesty songs.

[hefdaddy42]

Even worse with the Majesty songs.

AMEN.

[contest_sanity]

Even worse with the Majesty songs.

AMEN.

On this I can agree.

[JuniorLu]

While it seems that this thread has turned more to an expounding of the virtues--or lack thereof--of WDADU and FII, I want to return to the previous PN tour for a second.  I live in Michigan, where DT has played on every tour since at least Awake (Octavarium was a squeeze-in and subsequent cancellation due to JLB having voice issues right before the MSG show).  I have seen them every time, including right after my wife's c-section (yes, she went, too...the trooper!) And another when she was 8 mos preggo w/ our second kid (again, she went too!).  On this tour, the closest they came was Chicago--4 hrs away.  I didn't go, because I was SURE they'd come back to Detroit on the BCASL tour.  I'm supremely disappointed and absolutely feel slighted after seeing them on 10 other tours.  The whole PN thing is BS for their real fans who are paying good money to see THEM.  If there is an economic issue, they brought it on themselves by not doing an evening with tour...or at least bringing PN to more cities.

As for WDADU, there were only ever a handful of decent tunes on it, kinda like Genesis "Nursery Cryme."  Play one or two if everyone agrees, but Christ, it shouldn't cause hard feelings in the band.

As for FII...I thought it sucked from the moment I first heard it.  It is the one clunker they've released.  True, BCASL seems a bit rushed and/or stale, but FII has almost nothing redeeming to me.  I'm fine w/ a hiatus...just so long as they DO come back, proggy as always!

[KevShmev]

I'm sorry, I bought FII the day it came out, and as soon as I heard that song, I thought..well THIS is over. What happened to the band I loved.

You let one song do that to you?  I was as diehard as diehard gets when FII came out, and on my first run-through, I was completely knocked over enough by the keyboard intro to "Lines in the Sand" that I didn't even notice any "lesser" material.  I was never that fond of "You Not Me," but most of the rest of the CD was more than good enough for me to overlook one hiccup (albeit, a big one).

[Perpetual Change]

A couple of die-hards from back in the day have similar opinions as TAC, though.  My old supervisor was big into DT, and came on board around Awake.  He said that since the band had such a strong EP, ACoS, everyone he knew was worried that the band were falling off after the lackluster FII followed up along with the equally as unsatisfying OIALT.

When Scenes from a memory came out, he and a couple of his more optimistic buddies went out to buy it, and popped it into the car stereo.  As soon as the acoustic guitar and "safe in the light that surrounds me..." kicked in, the feeling was unanimous that Dream Theater were done.  And then Overture 1928 kicked in.
 

[contest_sanity]

I'm sorry, I bought FII the day it came out, and as soon as I heard that song, I thought..well THIS is over. What happened to the band I loved.

You let one song do that to you?  I was as diehard as diehard gets when FII came out, and on my first run-through, I was completely knocked over enough by the keyboard intro to "Lines in the Sand" that I didn't even notice any "lesser" material.  I was never that fond of "You Not Me," but most of the rest of the CD was more than good enough for me to overlook one hiccup (albeit, a big one).

I also bought FII the day it came it, and I did not feel giant waves of disappointment.  'You Not Me' was never a problem at all; I always liked the song.  I'll admit that listening to 'New Millennium,' I thought: well, this isn't exactly the opener I expected - but that's only cause I wanted something heavier.  I still liked NM, and now I think it's one of their most 'proggy' openers, what with the chapman stick and all.  But the clincher for me was 'Peruvian Skies.'  Once I heard the second part of that song, I would have been completely satisfied if FII ended right there.  Of course, it didn't, and I found a further distillation of awesome songs, TAMP being the only one I'm not super keen on.  I don't know, for people who heard FII when it came out, their reaction is one thing, but for people who heard it later than that - I think the album gets negatively judged in light of all we know now about the circumstances surrounding it more than its actual content... but that's just my opinion.

[Dream Team]

I'm sorry, I bought FII the day it came out, and as soon as I heard that song, I thought..well THIS is over. What happened to the band I loved.

You let one song do that to you?  I was as diehard as diehard gets when FII came out, and on my first run-through, I was completely knocked over enough by the keyboard intro to "Lines in the Sand" that I didn't even notice any "lesser" material.  I was never that fond of "You Not Me," but most of the rest of the CD was more than good enough for me to overlook one hiccup (albeit, a big one).

I also bought FII the day it came it, and I did not feel giant waves of disappointment.  'You Not Me' was never a problem at all; I always liked the song.  I'll admit that listening to 'New Millennium,' I thought: well, this isn't exactly the opener I expected - but that's only cause I wanted something heavier.  I still liked NM, and now I think it's one of their most 'proggy' openers, what with the chapman stick and all.  But the clincher for me was 'Peruvian Skies.'  Once I heard the second part of that song, I would have been completely satisfied if FII ended right there.  Of course, it didn't, and I found a further distillation of awesome songs, TAMP being the only one I'm not super keen on.  I don't know, for people who heard FII when it came out, their reaction is one thing, but for people who heard it later than that - I think the album gets negatively judged in light of all we know now about the circumstances surrounding it more than its actual content... but that's just my opinion.

The bolded part gets mentioned quite a lot in FII threads around here, and let me re-iterate AGAIN that I don't like the MUSIC on it; I couldn't care LESS what MP thinks about it. I don't research to find out what bandmembers say about a certain release before making my own personal judgement on it. I'm sure many other FII detractors would say the exact same thing, but it seems like we're farting in a hurricane . . .