Should 'Lie' Have Stayed In 'The Mirror' ?

[contest_sanity]

While everyone knows about 'Hell's Kitchen,' I had no inkling of this in regards to 'Lie' until reading the 2nd ed. of Lifting Shadows (pretty sure it wasn't in the 1st edition).

"The song itself was originally intended to be part of ‘The Mirror’ as James recalled in an interview with Album Network." 

“I remember one of the first tapes they sent me to start jamming with up in Canada was ‘The Mirror.’  We used to jam instrumentally to it on the last tour and then we built it into a song, with the lyrics and melodies but also within the song was ‘Lie.’  I heard this groove and I was going ‘Oh my God, that’s a song in itself.’  So I called up the guys and said ‘Man, I really feel strong about this song.  Can’t we take that groove and build a song?’  So that was how that came about (p. 159).

Thoughts?

Would 'The Mirror' have benefited from keeping the section that became 'Lie,' or was this a smart decision to build 2 separate songs?  I personally am glad it became its own song -- for one because it's a good song and secondly because its inclusion within 'The Mirror' may have been too abrupt and disjointed.

In addition, I find it incredibly interesting that JLB made this suggestion and that the rest of the band went with it.  For some reason, I don't feel like that would happen today within the atmosphere of the band because JLB seems very non-involved in the musical side of DT, with the exception of input into vocal melodies.  Could he have more say in the rest of the music if he wanted it?  Would that be a good thing if he did?   

[BlobVanDam]

It's better off as two songs. Even though they run into each other, there's almost no flow there at all, and it wouldn't work well to call it one song. Although if keeping it in there would have meant that the rest of Lie was never written, then maybe they should have left it in The Mirror.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

They have two totally different feels, so no. The transition between the songs is nice though

[bosk1]

Would 'The Mirror' have benefited from keeping the section that became 'Lie,' or was this a smart decision to build 2 separate songs?    

No.  As it is, I feel that both are incredibly strong songs in their own right.  I'm glad they were separated and the main groove of Lie was further developed and expanded upon to flesh it out into a full song.

In addition, I find it incredibly interesting that JLB made this suggestion and that the rest of the band went with it.  For some reason, I don't feel like that would happen today within the atmosphere of the band because JLB seems very non-involved in the musical side of DT, with the exception of input into vocal melodies.  

His involvement has varied through the years.  I disagree that it wouldn't happen today.  As the book points out, during the SDOIT era, the band actually told him he had to be more involved.

[millahh]

Which "groove" was it?  The opening riff wouldn't mesh at all, but the "i had gotten used to being sould-destroyed" section would have meshed very will with the vibe of The Mirror.

[KevShmev]

I think both songs are great as is, so I am fine with how it turned out, but of course, "The Mirror" with the reprise at the end of "Lie" together as a single song (which I think they have done live before) would have been super cool, too.

[contest_sanity]

In addition, I find it incredibly interesting that JLB made this suggestion and that the rest of the band went with it.  For some reason, I don't feel like that would happen today within the atmosphere of the band because JLB seems very non-involved in the musical side of DT, with the exception of input into vocal melodies.  

His involvement has varied through the years.  I disagree that it wouldn't happen today.  As the book points out, during the SDOIT era, the band actually told him he had to be more involved.

Yes, of course there was the 'come to Jesus' moment with James during the SDOIT era, but, at least recently, I haven't heard much about him having a lot of input into the music outside of the vocal melodies.  However, this may be simply because he does not want it.  He still seems very outspoken, as evidenced by the fact that he told MP & JP that, while he was cool not writing lyrics for Black Clouds, it wasn't going to happen that way again on the next album (p. 361 in Lifting Shadows 2nd edition).

[Samsara]

Lie and The Mirror are fine the way they turned out. Having Lie in the middle of it somewhere (or the basic song groove and structure) would be a mistake...just like having Hell's Kitchen in Burning My Soul was ridiculous as well.

Good call by James on that.

[hefdaddy42]

Yes, definitely better separate.

I could probably think of several other songs I wish he had spoken up about.

[contest_sanity]

Yes, definitely better separate.

I could probably think of several other songs I wish he had spoken up about.

Such as?

[Dream Team]

I like the idea of one song, the Mirror with the Lie reprise. To me, the best part of Lie is the 2 JP solos, the rest I wouldn't miss.

[Dark Master Of Sin]

I enjoy them how they are now.

[Mebert78]

I enjoy them how they are now.

Me too.  I actually think separating sections and songs is something DT could consider doing more of these days at times.  Not a lot, just in spots.  Plus, "Lie" charted #38 on the Rock Charts at the times, making it one of the band's highest-charting songs.  So I think it worked out well all in all.

[Jamariquay]

Yes, definitely better separate.

I could probably think of several other songs I wish he had spoken up about.

Such as?

Most of the recent "verse-chorus-verse-chorus-wacky instrumental-chorus" songs they've done, possibly. Endless Sacrifice, Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, etc.

[The Letter M]

Yes, definitely better separate.

I could probably think of several other songs I wish he had spoken up about.

Such as?

Most of the recent "verse-chorus-verse-chorus-wacky instrumental-chorus" songs they've done, possibly. Endless Sacrifice, Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, etc.

I think those three songs, while all similar, all benefit from having the "wacky instrumental" section as they're all slower, ballad-esque songs, so incorporating the signature DT-Instrumental-section works quite well in the context of those songs. For "Endless Sacrifice", it represents the struggle between JP and his wife while dealing with being apart while he tours. For "Sacrificed Sons", it represents the battle and fight that has carried on against Terrorism since 9/11. And for "The Ministry Of Lost Souls", it represents the internal struggle of the woman who was saved by the man who died, and her wanting to die to reunite with him.

I think since SFAM, they've done pretty well with incorporating appropriate instrumental sections in their songs, be it just for solos or more, and they've gotten better at it (with the recent exception of "A Rite Of Passage", which, still seems way too abrupt for me, but I've gotten more used to it since its release).

-Marc.

[Samsara]

I disagree, Marc. I think those songs suffer a great deal because of those wacky instrumental sections. While I see your point of view on it, my take is that is the "Metropolis" effect. They did that with Metropolis and it worked, but in my opinion, only because it was something different, one time.

I think the songs you reference would be better if the instrumental sections were removed in favorite of a more song-oriented, typical solo (say less than one minute solo that incorporates the vibe of the song, not standing apart from it).

I realize that many people think these instrumental sections plopped into the middle of songs is "progressive," but I'd argue that Dream Theater and other bands can be equally as "progressive" by writing songs that flow well, instead of being interrupted by instrumentals that sound nothing like the vibe of the song.

[contest_sanity]

Yes, definitely better separate.

I could probably think of several other songs I wish he had spoken up about.

Such as?

Most of the recent "verse-chorus-verse-chorus-wacky instrumental-chorus" songs they've done, possibly. Endless Sacrifice, Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, etc.

I wouldn't remove the instrumental sections of 'Endless Sacrifice' or TMOLS.  However, I do think it possible that Sacrificed Sons might work very well as a more concise, yet intense, ballad.  Though I do love the instrumental section in SS and would hate to lose it, it is the emotion-packed chorus that makes the song one of my favorites in DT's discography.

[Setlist Scotty]

Lie and The Mirror are fine the way they turned out. Having Lie in the middle of it somewhere (or the basic song groove and structure) would be a mistake...

Not directing this just at Brian, but I find it funny how a number of you guys comment that you're happy with the way that Lie was taken out of The Mirror and made a separate song. While it maybe tracked as a separate piece, it still flows exactly the same. For reference, listen to the Awake demos, you'd see how it originally was going to be.

Essentially the original version of The Mirror (before the song Lie was developed) is EXACTLY as we know it now, except instead of going into Lie (as is on the album) just the basic Lie riff was played instrumentally before going into The Mirror reprise (which is what the last minute and a half of Lie really is). When they decided to make Lie a song unto itself, they originally were going to keep it a separate piece - listen to the "single edit" of Lie for what it would've been.

What they ended up doing in the end was insert the completed song Lie into the middle of The Mirror where they simply had the instrumental riff previously.

In other words, if you like the way the songs flow together now, you would have been fine with The Mirror in it's original form.

[LTE]

Endless Sacrifice is fine with the break, cause the whole album is wanky hah.
But if TMOLS and SS were left untouched by multiple instrumental breaks, I think they would be far better, musical Dt songs.

[Samsara]

Scott! Hope you've been well man.

I don't find it funny. I call it making two separate songs with their own unique characteristics.

Flowing into one another is one thing. Plenty of songs flow right into the next. But take for example, Erotomania - Voices - The Silent Man. If that was one full song (A Mind Beside Itself), I may like it, but I like it much better as individual pieces. They fit, but they aren't one song. They are separate for an important reason.

Songs (IMO), shouldn't be jarring. At times, sure, for effect (Metropolis). But from this listener's point of view, Dream Theater is stronger when it doesn't try to make different pieces connect as one song. Sure, The Mirror and LIe follow one another nicely. But they are distinctly different in vibe. It's almost incomprehensible to me that they were meant as one song. That just doesn't make sense to my ears.

Ever since SFAM, that has been DT though. They don't allow for that separation much, and it's one of the reasons I find myself less of a fan.

Take "Endless Sacrifice." Love the song...up until the instrumental. The instrumental is way too long and drawn out. No need for a five-minute jam there. Killed the entire song. But if you removed it, put in a 30 second, soulful John Petrucci old school solo, BANG, the song is great.

I like the instrumental piece, but not in the middle of the song.

Same case here. Had Lie and Mirror been together, I wouldn't like the one song as much as I like the separate pieces. You could call it being attention span-deficient, but as some of the folks on here know, I have a pretty good attention span, so I'm not in that class of listener. I love long songs.  I just don't think pieces that are completely different than one another being mashed together as one song makes good music most of the time.

[ReaPsTA]

In other words, if you like the way the songs flow together now, you would have been fine with The Mirror in it's original form.

I assume you're talking about the version of The Mirror on The Awake demos where Lie is just kinda thrown in there. It sucks. It's like one of those deformed siamese twins where you have all of one baby, then various limbs of another. Lie is different enough from The Mirror that, in order for the flow to work, it needs to be its own song. Through the music and lyrics, a legitimate connection comes through, but they are not one song by any stretch of the imagination.

At least Burning My Soul with Hell's Kitchen makes sense as a single piece, even if it's slightly disjointed. The Mirror with the Lie riff-o-rama still feels like two songs.

[bosk1]

...What they ended up doing in the end was insert the completed song Lie into the middle of The Mirror where they simply had the instrumental riff previously.

In other words, if you like the way the songs flow together now, you would have been fine with The Mirror in it's original form.

And to clarify, I do like the Mirror in its original form.  But I like even more the fact that in addition to the present iteration of The Mirror, we now have an additional really good song called Lie.  In other words, we already had one good song.  Now we have two great songs.

Yes, definitely better separate.

I could probably think of several other songs I wish he had spoken up about.

Such as?

Most of the recent "verse-chorus-verse-chorus-wacky instrumental-chorus" songs they've done, possibly. Endless Sacrifice, Sacrificed Sons, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, etc.

I wouldn't remove the instrumental sections of 'Endless Sacrifice' or TMOLS.  However, I do think it possible that Sacrificed Sons might work very well as a more concise, yet intense, ballad.  Though I do love the instrumental section in SS and would hate to lose it, it is the emotion-packed chorus that makes the song one of my favorites in DT's discography.

 My take is exactly the opposite.  To me, Sacrificed Sons doesn't even belong in that discussion.  The instrumental there isn't "whacky" at all.  It fits the mood and the build-up of the song perfectly and actually adds something valuable to the song.  I wouldn't change a thing.  

TMOLS, to me, is a good song with a very good instrumental section jammed into the middle.  Sounds good so far, except that that good song and great instrumental section do not match one another and, at least to my ears, actually clash and considerably detract from one another considerably to the point that the end product is significantly worse than either of those two parts separately.

ES is the same, but makes an even bigger mess.  The song itself, sans instrumental section, is VERY good, other than suffering from being too long and drawn out.  The instrumental section really does nothing for me.  I like insane shredding, but this just meanders and makes me lose interest.  Shoehorn it into the middle of a song where it doesn't belong, and it's even worse.

[ReaPsTA]

Yes, definitely better separate.

I could probably think of several other songs I wish he had spoken up about.

Oddly enough, when he heard the weird circusy transition section in TCOT, he said it was a bad idea and should be cut, and in that case I actually really disagree with him.

[bosk1]

as some of the folks on here know, I have a pretty good attention span

Lie!















































See, that's funny on account of, you really don't know whether that's an accusation or if I'm just referring to the song.  See?  Funny. 

[Perpetual Change]

Nah.  I'd probably always skip them if they came on shuffle together as one song.  Apart, I might decide to soldier through.  Depends how busy I am.

[millahh]

Well, given Scotty's info, I'd say the split was a very good idea.

[abydos]

They are both great songs on their own and I love them the way they are now. As one song I feel that a lot of good material would have been left out. I wasn't happy with the radio edit of Lie anyway.

[Setlist Scotty]

Definitely an interesting thread. IMO a better question would have been whether DT should have left the full song Lie inserted in the middle of The Mirror as it is on Awake, or if they should have separated them completely as The Mirror is on LSFNY and Lie is on the single edit. But I digress...
 
 
 

Flowing into one another is one thing. Plenty of songs flow right into the next. But take for example, Erotomania - Voices - The Silent Man. If that was one full song (A Mind Beside Itself), I may like it, but I like it much better as individual pieces. They fit, but they aren't one song. They are separate for an important reason.

Songs (IMO), shouldn't be jarring. At times, sure, for effect (Metropolis). But from this listener's point of view, Dream Theater is stronger when it doesn't try to make different pieces connect as one song. Sure, The Mirror and LIe follow one another nicely. But they are distinctly different in vibe. It's almost incomprehensible to me that they were meant as one song. That just doesn't make sense to my ears.

Ever since SFAM, that has been DT though. They don't allow for that separation much, and it's one of the reasons I find myself less of a fan.

Take "Endless Sacrifice." Love the song...up until the instrumental. The instrumental is way too long and drawn out. No need for a five-minute jam there. Killed the entire song. But if you removed it, put in a 30 second, soulful John Petrucci old school solo, BANG, the song is great.

I like the instrumental piece, but not in the middle of the song.

Please don't take this the wrong way Brian, but from my POV, what you're telling me is simply a labeling thing - something strictly in your mind. Since Lie is labeled as a separate track from The Mirror, you're fine with it - but if these 2 tracks were listed as one track, you wouldn't like it (or at least like it as much) - correct? I'll take it that the song SDoIT is an example where you don't like it as much because it's a single song - had it been 8 separate songs, you'd like it more. And with Endless Sacrifice, if say for instance DT had said that the middle instrumental section was actually a separate instrumental song inserted into the middle of Endless Sacrifice (just as Lie is inserted into the middle of The Mirror), then you'd be fine with that.

Am I right on these assumptions? Because that's basically the impression I'm getting from your post.
 
 
 

At least Burning My Soul with Hell's Kitchen makes sense as a single piece, even if it's slightly disjointed. The Mirror with the Lie riff-o-rama still feels like two songs.

While we'll never know, I bet in an alternate world where they never developed Lie into a full song and left The Mirror just as it is in the demo, you wouldn't be saying it feels like two songs. IMO, the reason why that's your POV is simply because of the final product that ended up on the album which is what you heard first and are most familiar with.

[hefdaddy42]

Yes, definitely better separate.

I could probably think of several other songs I wish he had spoken up about.

Such as?

Endless Sacrifice for sure.  Also A Nightmare To Remember.  Actually, that could be split into three different songs, with one hopefully winding up on the cutting room floor.

[ZBomber]

I think when prog fans complain about an instrumental being too long and out of place, they might be onto something. 

[contest_sanity]

Yes, definitely better separate.

I could probably think of several other songs I wish he had spoken up about.

Such as?

Endless Sacrifice for sure.  Also A Nightmare To Remember.  Actually, that could be split into three different songs, with one hopefully winding up on the cutting room floor.

Don't you mean the cutting room FLOARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!???

[Basekick]

I think a lot of you guys are missing the idea here to be honest.

I could be wrong here, but I'm getting the impression that JLB isn't talking about simply getting some scotch tape and attaching the beginning of Lie to The Mirror.  Rather, Lie was created from an idea that was previously in The Mirror, and then they removed it and the respective section and made a new song, Lie, with the groove.  I would be very interested to hear what The Mirror sounded like in full and before it was stripped down in order to create Lie.

To be fair here, I don't think we can really make a rational choice here, since we have never heard what The Mirror was before it was stripped of the "Lie groove".  I will say though that I enjoy both The Mirror and Lie, and I'm very happy that both exist in our world.

[The Letter M]

I think a lot of you guys are missing the idea here to be honest.

I could be wrong here, but I'm getting the impression that JLB isn't talking about simply getting some scotch tape and attaching the beginning of Lie to The Mirror.  Rather, Lie was created from an idea that was previously in The Mirror, and then they removed it and the respective section and made a new song, Lie, with the groove.  I would be very interested to hear what The Mirror sounded like in full and before it was stripped down in order to create Lie.

To be fair here, I don't think we can really make a rational choice here, since we have never heard what The Mirror was before it was stripped of the "Lie groove".  I will say though that I enjoy both The Mirror and Lie, and I'm very happy that both exist in our world.

Isn't that what "The Mirror" from the Awake Demos is?

-Marc.

[bosk1]

Yes.

[ReaPsTA]

At least Burning My Soul with Hell's Kitchen makes sense as a single piece, even if it's slightly disjointed. The Mirror with the Lie riff-o-rama still feels like two songs.

While we'll never know, I bet in an alternate world where they never developed Lie into a full song and left The Mirror just as it is in the demo, you wouldn't be saying it feels like two songs. IMO, the reason why that's your POV is simply because of the final product that ended up on the album which is what you heard first and are most familiar with.

Isn't that kind of presumptuous? Like I said, I heard Burning My Soul and Hell's Kitchen first as different songs, but when I hear Burning My Soul '96, I hear one song. The two elements actually blend and flow into each other in interesting ways.

I know I don't have perfect perspective here, but if I honestly thought The Mirror/Lie as one song worked, I think I'd have the intellectual honesty to see that.