Author Topic: A thought on Octavarium  (Read 17835 times)

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Offline j

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2010, 12:51:49 PM »
I think Octavarium the album is of the same quality of I&W and I'm not afraid to say it.  I love Octavarium.  I always go back to that album consistently.
Same. Favourite DT album. With IAW a close second. Fantastic stuff.

There seem to be a lot of people who share this opinion but I have to strongly disagree.  Excluding Octavarium's title track (which might make my top 10), the best of the remaining songs on Octavarium is still worse than the worst song on I&W.  The whole album is just very mediocre, IMO: nothing truly *bad* on it, but only a couple of songs I'd call "great".

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2010, 02:55:54 AM »
I think Octavarium the album is of the same quality of I&W and I'm not afraid to say it.  I love Octavarium.  I always go back to that album consistently.
Same. Favourite DT album. With IAW a close second. Fantastic stuff.

There seem to be a lot of people who share this opinion but I have to strongly disagree.  Excluding Octavarium's title track (which might make my top 10), the best of the remaining songs on Octavarium is still worse than the worst song on I&W.  The whole album is just very mediocre, IMO: nothing truly *bad* on it, but only a couple of songs I'd call "great".

-J


I agree with everything you said. My biggest problem with Octavarium would be that it seemed to fail to deliver on each thing I liked about DT with the exception of TRoAE and PA.

Tracks 2-4 almost made me angry listening to them when I first got the album. TALW just never felt like a DT track to me and unless something unexpectedly sparks some interest for me it likely never will. I like softer songs like Wait for Sleep, Another Day, Anna Lee, One Last Time so don't mistake me for being the type that can only dig the heavier stuff. I guess the song just bores me to tears and has virtually nothing memorable as far as the melodic content of it goes. These Walls' first riff(the one that leads into Jordan's entrance) still doesn't seem to fit the song no matter how much I listen to it and the song has its nice moments but this song had the potential to be a masterpiece. Its riffs are solid but in the end it just feels flat especially on JP's parts which are nicely written and structured but I think the less-is-more approach to it limited it a lot.

IWBY can be summed up as a mediocre-at-best U2 cover. The tenth time or so I listened to it I basically gave up on it and listen to it maybe once a year now hoping to find some reason to like it but very little has happened on that front. Panic Attack is easily my fave on this album so I'm not gonna try to solidify my point by needlessly hating on a song I genuinely like. Never Enough killed me both w/the lyrical content and JLB's melodramatic delivery.

Sacrificed Sons is torturously long and uneventful imo as well. I kinda like the JM groove part but it comes in kinda abruptly and outside of that part I hardly even remember any of it any more. 8vm the song is borderline agony trying to make it through the song. I just got increasingly disappointed in it. All the trademarks of good epics weren't there. Forgetably drawn-out JR wankery leads into another 20:00 of awkward transitions and forced emotion.
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Offline AwakeFromOctavarium

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2010, 03:03:16 AM »
The thing is, I can actually recommend all the songs in I&W, but not Octavarium. I&W songs are much more fun to listen than Octavarium. The songs there are mostly boring and I usually can't go past the first chorus. Except for The Root of All Evil and Octavarium though.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2010, 08:24:50 AM »
Hmm...I just had an interesting thought...  *ranks the Octavarium and I&W songs together*

Octavarium
Metropolis, pt. I
Learning To Live
Panic Attack
Pull Me Under
Sacrificed Sons
The Root Of All Evil
Wait For Sleep
Take The Time
These Walls
Under a Glass Moon
I Walk Beside You
Never Enough
Surrounded
Another Day
The Answer Lies Within

Pretty arbitrary way of comparing the albums, but I was curious to see how it would shake out if I did it this way.  As far as my tastes, they're pretty evenly matched.
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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2010, 09:30:16 AM »
Well, I agree with you that Another Day is the 8th best song on I&W, that Octavarium is the best song from 8VM, and that The Answer Lies Within is the worst song from either, but that's about it.

Wow, you must really like Panic Attack.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2010, 09:37:58 AM »
I really like all those songs down through These Walls.  After that, for the rest of the songs, I can take 'em or leave 'em.

Curious how you'd rank 'em.  Wait--don't answer that.  We should do a new thread...
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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2010, 09:39:03 AM »
OK, I'll wait for your thread.   :biggrin:
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Offline faemir

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2010, 04:59:06 PM »
This could have been a good EP.  Leave off the boring "These Wa-

I stopped reading there :loser:

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2010, 05:49:03 PM »

Sacrificed Sons is torturously long and uneventful imo as well. I kinda like the JM groove part but it comes in kinda abruptly and outside of that part I hardly even remember any of it any more. 8vm the song is borderline agony trying to make it through the song. I just got increasingly disappointed in it. All the trademarks of good epics weren't there. Forgetably drawn-out JR wankery leads into another 20:00 of awkward transitions and forced emotion.


This confuses me.  Sacrificed Sons is a complete buildup song.  It becomes so intense by the end.  I thought this song was kinda meh at first, but it grew on me and grew on me and now I think its just a great song all around.

How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery?  That whole song is pure prog genius.  To this day I still think it's the best song ever written.  Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing.  All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building.  The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing.  I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike.  Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me.  This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.
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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2010, 06:32:02 PM »

Sacrificed Sons is torturously long and uneventful imo as well. I kinda like the JM groove part but it comes in kinda abruptly and outside of that part I hardly even remember any of it any more. 8vm the song is borderline agony trying to make it through the song. I just got increasingly disappointed in it. All the trademarks of good epics weren't there. Forgetably drawn-out JR wankery leads into another 20:00 of awkward transitions and forced emotion.


This confuses me.  Sacrificed Sons is a complete buildup song.  It becomes so intense by the end.  I thought this song was kinda meh at first, but it grew on me and grew on me and now I think its just a great song all around.

How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery?  That whole song is pure prog genius.  To this day I still think it's the best song ever written.  Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing.  All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building.  The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing.  I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike.  Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me.  This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.

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Offline austin

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2010, 06:39:02 PM »

Sacrificed Sons is torturously long and uneventful imo as well. I kinda like the JM groove part but it comes in kinda abruptly and outside of that part I hardly even remember any of it any more. 8vm the song is borderline agony trying to make it through the song. I just got increasingly disappointed in it. All the trademarks of good epics weren't there. Forgetably drawn-out JR wankery leads into another 20:00 of awkward transitions and forced emotion.


This confuses me.  Sacrificed Sons is a complete buildup song.  It becomes so intense by the end.  I thought this song was kinda meh at first, but it grew on me and grew on me and now I think its just a great song all around.

How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery?  That whole song is pure prog genius.  To this day I still think it's the best song ever written.  Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing.  All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building.  The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing.  I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike.  Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me.  This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.

i endorse this post

Offline bosk1

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2010, 06:41:03 PM »

Sacrificed Sons is torturously long and uneventful imo as well. I kinda like the JM groove part but it comes in kinda abruptly and outside of that part I hardly even remember any of it any more. 8vm the song is borderline agony trying to make it through the song. I just got increasingly disappointed in it. All the trademarks of good epics weren't there. Forgetably drawn-out JR wankery leads into another 20:00 of awkward transitions and forced emotion.


This confuses me.  Sacrificed Sons is a complete buildup song.  It becomes so intense by the end.  I thought this song was kinda meh at first, but it grew on me and grew on me and now I think its just a great song all around.

How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery?  That whole song is pure prog genius.  To this day I still think it's the best song ever written.  Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing.  All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building.  The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing.  I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike.  Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me.  This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.

i endorse this post
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2010, 06:42:13 PM »
austin = DTF's laziest poster  ;)

That said,

Sacrificed Sons is torturously long and uneventful imo as well. I kinda like the JM groove part but it comes in kinda abruptly and outside of that part I hardly even remember any of it any more. 8vm the song is borderline agony trying to make it through the song. I just got increasingly disappointed in it. All the trademarks of good epics weren't there. Forgetably drawn-out JR wankery leads into another 20:00 of awkward transitions and forced emotion.


This confuses me.  Sacrificed Sons is a complete buildup song.  It becomes so intense by the end.  I thought this song was kinda meh at first, but it grew on me and grew on me and now I think its just a great song all around.

How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery?  That whole song is pure prog genius.  To this day I still think it's the best song ever written.  Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing.  All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building.  The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing.  I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike.  Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me.  This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.

i endorse this post

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2010, 06:55:19 PM »
Quote from: 7StringedBeast
How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery?  That whole song is pure prog genius.  To this day I still think it's the best song ever written.  Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing.  All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building.  The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing.  I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike.  Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me.  This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.

I consider the JR continuum intro wankery because it's ridiculously long for what little it contains overall. By contrast I adore The Divine Wings of Tragedy by Symphony X which has an intro roughly the same length but accomplishes a hell of a lot more within that timeframe by comparison. I get that JR is establishing mood and whatnot but ffs it's 4 minutes of atmospheric ambiance and nothing more than chord crescendos and sparse continuum.

Awesome and flowing seem a touch flattering when it can easily be seen as DT borrowing heavily from Yes, Styx, etc. and merely trying to put a fresh face on that tried-and-true format to make it appealing to newer fans. I guess it's just a difference in opinions but I find numerous transitions in 8vm to be a bit herky-jerky and made merely in a forced attempt to raise the prog-osity to 11.

While I lean a hair more in the direction of metal I definitely consider myself a prog guy as well. I'm a huge Rush, Pink Floyd and Yes fan and the only Rush era I don't much like is Signal-Presto which is widely regarded as completely non-prog with the shortened and simplified structures they used during it. I love the vast majority of the DT catalogue even FII and WDADU(which I actually like probably more than anyone else on here unless some other fans of it emerge from the woodwork  :sadpanda:) and 8vm is the only album that I can't just put on and play all the way through.

I welcome your retort though since I like these little debates since it seems this will be a rather peaceful one  :tup
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Offline austin

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2010, 07:03:51 PM »
austin = DTF's laziest poster  ;)
Oh gee thanks
I came back to dtf and told myself that I would adopt a new posting system
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2010, 07:10:27 PM »
austin = DTF's laziest poster  ;)
Oh gee thanks
I came back to dtf and told myself that I would adopt a new posting system
if someone says something better than or as good as I could say it myself I'd rather credit them in my own opinion through their words rather than write it out myself
but at least i have status here now. That's going in my usertitle

And I thought Hef was the minimalist around here.

Offline austin

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2010, 07:33:17 PM »
And I thought Hef was the minimalist around here.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2010, 07:37:07 PM »
austin = DTF's laziest poster  ;)
Oh gee thanks
I came back to dtf and told myself that I would adopt a new posting system
if someone says something better than or as good as I could say it myself I'd rather credit them in my own opinion through their words rather than write it out myself
but at least i have status here now. That's going in my usertitle

And I thought Hef was the minimalist around here.

Yes, but hef can sum up entire paragraphs-worth of opinion in only one word in a way that no other man has ever quite mastered.
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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2010, 08:41:27 PM »
Quote from: 7StringedBeast
How could you call anything going on in Octavarium wankery?  That whole song is pure prog genius.  To this day I still think it's the best song ever written.  Everytime I listen I just can't believe how they were able to write something so awesome and so flowing.  All the different parts just flow together and keep building and building and building.  The melodies are amazing, the performances are amazing.  I really don't understand the Octavarium dislike.  Perhaps you are not a big prog guy and like the heavier stuff more, that would be understandable, but to say it has no trademarks of a good epic is a weird statement to me.  This song has one of the best DT instrumental sections ever written.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your opinion or anything, and this is only my opinion, but I am confused by your judgement of the song.

I consider the JR continuum intro wankery because it's ridiculously long for what little it contains overall. By contrast I adore The Divine Wings of Tragedy by Symphony X which has an intro roughly the same length but accomplishes a hell of a lot more within that timeframe by comparison. I get that JR is establishing mood and whatnot but ffs it's 4 minutes of atmospheric ambiance and nothing more than chord crescendos and sparse continuum.

Awesome and flowing seem a touch flattering when it can easily be seen as DT borrowing heavily from Yes, Styx, etc. and merely trying to put a fresh face on that tried-and-true format to make it appealing to newer fans. I guess it's just a difference in opinions but I find numerous transitions in 8vm to be a bit herky-jerky and made merely in a forced attempt to raise the prog-osity to 11.

While I lean a hair more in the direction of metal I definitely consider myself a prog guy as well. I'm a huge Rush, Pink Floyd and Yes fan and the only Rush era I don't much like is Signal-Presto which is widely regarded as completely non-prog with the shortened and simplified structures they used during it. I love the vast majority of the DT catalogue even FII and WDADU(which I actually like probably more than anyone else on here unless some other fans of it emerge from the woodwork  :sadpanda:) and 8vm is the only album that I can't just put on and play all the way through.

I welcome your retort though since I like these little debates since it seems this will be a rather peaceful one  :tup

Yeah man, I totally get where you are coming from with the 4 minute intro.  I used to skip past it all the time but I've learned to enjoy it more.  To me it adds to the hold build up of the song now.  I can definitely see where that would turn you off though.
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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2010, 08:43:32 PM »
How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.
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Offline austin

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2010, 08:46:39 PM »
blah blah 4 minute intro
same
I think I too would initially skip the intro except it was one of the first things that drew me into Octavarium (and DT as a whole too) since when I was first getting into DT I was checking out random videos and I came across Jordan's solo on Score. I was blown away by both the continuum and JR (my first exposure to him) and I watched the solo at least 10 times  :lol
Had I instead started with the album and not created such fond memories of my first exposure to DT with the solo I'd definitely consider it unnecessary and (contrary to blob's wise explanation) wankery.

That is all  :hat

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2010, 08:47:03 PM »
How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.

I think he was saying that its just 4 minutes of Jordan playing by himself.  The fact that he is taking so much time to do so little is what makes it wankery opposed to doing a lot in a short period which would also be criticized as the same thing lol.  That's my interpretation of the critique.
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Offline austin

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2010, 08:48:18 PM »
How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.

I think he was saying that its just 4 minutes of Jordan playing with himself.  The fact that he is taking so much time to do so little is what makes it wankery opposed to doing a lot in a short period which would also be criticized as the same thing lol.  That's my interpretation of the critique.
fix'd  :lol
if that doesn't count as wankery we need a new definition

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2010, 08:50:25 PM »
How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.

I think he was saying that its just 4 minutes of Jordan playing by himself.  The fact that he is taking so much time to do so little is what makes it wankery opposed to doing a lot in a short period which would also be criticized as the same thing lol.  That's my interpretation of the critique.

But that's not what wankery means. Wankery is lots of notes. Perhaps self-indulgent is more what you're thinking? But it's not what I'd classify as wanky.
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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2010, 08:52:01 PM »
How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.

I think he was saying that its just 4 minutes of Jordan playing by himself.  The fact that he is taking so much time to do so little is what makes it wankery opposed to doing a lot in a short period which would also be criticized as the same thing lol.  That's my interpretation of the critique.

This. Also, Blob before you try giving others a pointer on the meaning of a word why don't you post a link to a non-slang definition since the only place I could find a definition was urbandictionary.com, not exactly Webster's or Old Oxford ya dig? Slang is not exactly the final word on anything.
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Offline austin

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2010, 08:53:04 PM »
How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.

I think he was saying that its just 4 minutes of Jordan playing by himself.  The fact that he is taking so much time to do so little is what makes it wankery opposed to doing a lot in a short period which would also be criticized as the same thing lol.  That's my interpretation of the critique.

But that's not what wankery means. Wankery is lots of notes. Perhaps self-indulgent is more what you're thinking? But it's not what I'd classify as wanky.
IMO I think it might be classified as both. Even if it was just for atmosphere- like since it was kindof an ambient section, the standards for wankery are reduced. It could have been kinda simplified from what it was like JP's ambient section in TCoT. Maybe. I dunno.
Also I feel like using this emote  :hat

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2010, 08:54:47 PM »
How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.

I think he was saying that its just 4 minutes of Jordan playing by himself.  The fact that he is taking so much time to do so little is what makes it wankery opposed to doing a lot in a short period which would also be criticized as the same thing lol.  That's my interpretation of the critique.

This. Also, Blob before you try giving others a pointer on the meaning of a word why don't you post a link to a non-slang definition since the only place I could find a definition was urbandictionary.com, not exactly Webster's or Old Oxford ya dig?

I think it's pretty well established, especially on this forum, that wank means playing lots of notes. There's never been any need to define it any clearer than that, because it's pretty clear as it is. An ambient fade in intro is not wanky.
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Offline black_biff_stadler

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2010, 08:57:54 PM »
How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.

Slang is heavily subject to opinion and tends to evolve to meet the needs of various contexts unlike real words. You make it sound as though you think we're ignorant for not accepting your narrow view of a slang word's functionality.
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Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2010, 08:59:27 PM »
To me wankery = self indulgence
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?

Offline austin

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2010, 08:59:46 PM »
blob's reexplanation
while I disagree with his opinion on whether or not the solo is wankery, his definition and explanation of assumed understanding are spot on and might I add would probably be fairly widely accepted :hat

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2010, 09:00:15 PM »
How about we all learn our terms instead of throwing around generic terms like wankery?
Note: something that is musically sparse and there for mood cannot be wanky.

Slang is heavily subject to opinion and tends to evolve to meet the needs of various contexts unlike real words. You make it sound as though you think we're ignorant for not accepting your narrow view of a slang word's functionality.

:lol I have never once on this forum heard any ambiguity about the definition of musical wank. Ever. It's not I'm making up a different meaning of the word. This is just what the word has always meant here.
Note: Wank isn't just a generic term people use to criticize JR. It actually does infact have a definition here. Is this really even up for debate? ???
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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2010, 09:05:19 PM »
To me wankery = self indulgence

Agreed. Basically someone beating an idea to death in the vain hopes of it adding to a composition. I understand it may not be as popular as the other def. but I've surely heard other people use this as well. Additionally, the word is obviously far from being exclusive to this forum so I don't even understand why that was used as an arguing point in the first place.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2010, 09:07:33 PM »
I never really think DT bring the wank as much as some other progressive metal bands do.  Of course, Symphony X are the kings of wank.  In my opinion, DT reach wank when this happens.

JP solos (not wank)
JR solos (still not wank)
JP solos again (getting close to wank
JR solos again (ok. we now are getting dangerously close.)
JP and JR unison (wank has assumed control. wank has assumed control.)

Mind you this has to all be in one section of a song.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 09:14:05 PM by Perpetual Change »

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2010, 09:10:07 PM »
To me wankery = self indulgence

Agreed. Basically someone beating an idea to death in the vain hopes of it adding to a composition. I understand it may not be as popular as the other def. but I've surely heard other people use this as well. Additionally, the word is obviously far from being exclusive to this forum so I don't even understand why that was used as an arguing point in the first place.

Because it's all about context. It would make no sense to use a term contrary to its accepted definition of its context.
I'll accept that you have a different definition, but I still I disagree as to that intro being wank. It's a slow built-up intro, increasing in intensity to set the mood of the song. In a 24 minute song, I don't see 4-5 minutes as being excessive or self indulgent any more than for example the 3 minute outro solo by JP for TBOT.
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Re: A thought on Octavarium
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2010, 09:24:00 PM »
Because it's all about context. It would make no sense to use a term contrary to its accepted definition of its context.
I'll accept that you have a different definition, but I still I disagree as to that intro being wank. It's a slow built-up intro, increasing in intensity to set the mood of the song. In a 24 minute song, I don't see 4-5 minutes as being excessive or self indulgent any more than for example the 3 minute outro solo by JP for TBOT.

I get that but based on your use of ratio of intro to total song length then Six Degrees could have a bland ethereal 7-9 minute continuum intro and that'd be just fine. I have no problem with establishing mood but the when the pacing causes me to lose focus and become frustrated at the waste of time it's turned into I draw the line. At least after those 4 minutes(well 3:48 anyway) he brings in that melody that begins to give the song some life.

What I don't understand is how many people on this forum slobber all over 8vm's intro but virtually everyone will pan Opeth's much shorter outro to Dirge for November for it's "redundancy."  :huh:
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