Mass Effect (merged thread)

[kala1928]

Harbinger is a Reaper and you fight his avatar multiple times in every mission. How is that more detached than Saren?

Harbinger is a Reaper which means that he is a big ass ship somewhere in the dead space. The "Harbinger" shown in the ingame vids is the Collector General whom Harbinger has in his(its?) control. Also you dont fight his avatar you just fight regular collectors the Collector General has taken control of.

Actually, when Harbinger "assumes control" of a collector, the little window at the top of the screen that has the name and the health explicitly says "Harbinger".

lol

[MetalManiac666]

I'm not sure why you're lol'ing, he's right.

[kala1928]

Maybe its just called "Harbinger" instead of "Collector soldier possesses by Harbinger while having control over the Contoller General" for conviniency? Its not the actual Harbinger nor any sort of avatar of it, even though the name says so! Remember Harbinger isnt the creature shown in the cinematics. Harbinger is a reaper ship that is prolly only shown once during the whole game.

[Sigz]

Either way, if Harbinger is taking control of that collector then he's directly involved and you are fighting him. What's the problem?

[kala1928]

Either way, if Harbinger is taking control of that collector then he's directly involved and you are fighting him. What's the problem?

You're not fighting him. Its just a puppet. Harbinger itself is in no way present nor does the fact that you're fighting a buffed collector reflect the possible level of threat or power Harbinger should represent.

[MetalManiac666]

...and that's exactly what Scurvy said in his original post.

Avatar = puppet

[MetalJunkie]

Either way, if Harbinger is taking control of that collector then he's directly involved and you are fighting him. What's the problem?

You're not fighting him. Its just a puppet. Harbinger itself is in no way present nor does the fact that you're fighting a buffed collector reflect the possible level of threat or power Harbinger should represent.

I fail to see how the concept is so difficult to grasp. Let's use your puppet analogy for a second. You're probably right. But if I picked up a puppet and smacked the everliving fuck out somebody with it, who would they blame? The puppet?

Edit: What MetalManiac said.

[ehra]

The players can also choose to never directly fight Sovereign in Mass Effect 1 and the final boss is just some "puppet" he controls. Why is this an issue for ME2?

[kala1928]

The players can also choose to never directly fight Sovereign in Mass Effect 1 and the final boss is just some "puppet" he controls. Why is this an issue for ME2?

Because Sovereign and the threat he poses is very much present in the game. Same can't be said for Harbinger.

[ehra]

By "very much" I think you mean "in the last 20 or so minutes of the game," because throughout every other part it's Saren you're dealing with. A puppet. You're not even aware of Sovereign until you're just about done with the game anyway.

[kala1928]

By "very much" I think you mean "in the last 20 or so minutes of the game," because throughout every other part it's Saren you're dealing with. A puppet. You're not even aware of Sovereign until you're just about done with the game anyway.

By "throughout every other part" I guess you mean "in the few scenes he appears". There is very little to deal with Saren per se since its Sovereign that is orchestrating everything.

[Sigz]

Then how is that different from harbinger having the collectors orchestrate everything?

[ehra]

By "very much" I think you mean "in the last 20 or so minutes of the game," because throughout every other part it's Saren you're dealing with. A puppet. You're not even aware of Sovereign until you're just about done with the game anyway.

By "throughout every other part" I guess you mean "in the few scenes he appears". There is very little to deal with Saren per se since its Sovereign that is orchestrating everything.

Yes, but you're arguing over how all you deal with is Harbinger's "puppets."

[kala1928]

Sigh.
Harbinger lacks "presence" in the story.
He is so distant in the background that by the time of finding this thread I had already forgotten his existence (I just thought the General was a collector named Harbinger) in the whole story and was really 'wtf' after reading some wiki entry about a reaper named Harbinger I had do triplecheck it to be true. Also the interaction with the villains and the antagonist is totally non-existent in ME2. Good story needs the speech before the big fight and all the silly long plot-revealing discussions which would be used much better trying to get rid of the hero.
The "Puppet-master" type villain needs to be confronted and dealt with for it to be effective.

[Scurvy!Dreams]

You really have no idea of the double standard you're applying to these games?

[kala1928]

I dont think my reasoning is unfair. Sovereign just makes for a lot more creditable and effective main villain the Harbinger ever does. Sure you don't "meet" him until the last third of the game but thats just because of ME1's story arc.
Sovereign is present in the game in more forms than just the knowledge that he exists, you interact with him, his actions have direct effect on characters and the story and he even gets ultimately confronted.
Harbinger is shown in one(I think) scene in the movie, he is never present. Usually his presence means he is controlling a collector via the general. Even the general is never present anywhere. Nor do you ever interact with him in his any form even once. And no, him shouting 'Imma gonna kill j000!' does not count. Nothing he does has effect on the characters nor the story. His partake in the story is basically "ok I'm gonna sit here until you come and kill me mkay, plz dont take too long". And even then he is never confronted. The end boss is some weirdo supermonster that is introduced and then two minutes later destroyed.

[Dimitrius]

Nothing he does has effect on the characters nor the story. His partake in the story is basically "ok I'm gonna sit here until you come and kill me mkay, plz dont take too long".

Right, because Harbinger controlling the Collectors so they attack and kidnap the human colonies to make the human-Reaper thing has no effect on the characters nor the story.

[Super Dude]

It's not like ME2 is centered around figuring out how the Collectors are connected Harbinger or anything....

[kala1928]

Nothing he does has effect on the characters nor the story. His partake in the story is basically "ok I'm gonna sit here until you come and kill me mkay, plz dont take too long".

Right, because Harbinger controlling the Collectors so they attack and kidnap the human colonies to make the human-Reaper thing has no effect on the characters nor the story.

Spot on, it doesn't. Its the basic premis of the story, its there from the get-go and doesn't change during the game and none if his actions, like you said, don't have any impact on the characters.

[Super Dude]

[kala1928]

You don't have to take my word for it, the plot in ME2 isnt that awesome.

https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004

[ehra]

And what Shamus says about the Collectors ruining what we knew of the Reapers doesn't make sense; we already knew in ME1 that the Reapers had no qualms taking organics, mixing them with machines, and using them. In fact, that was Saren's entire motivation throughout ME1; convincing the Reapers that the current organics were useful enough to mechanize and keep around.

[skydivingninja]

Because that guy is the end-all be-all judge of story content.  There are some silly things in there (like EDI's sensors being able to tell the things a Reaper), but they used Saren (an organic) in ME1.  They'll use organics, especially when they're under their control like the Collectors.  As for the final choice, its not really as binary as it seems.  Its actually incredibly tough to abandon the "good shepherd" morals to have an advantage against the Reapers, or abandon that advantage, and yet still have a conflicted conscience.

There are a few more points that are just plain wrong.  Like the game over screen bit.  Cerberus doesn't make money from colonists disappearing, and the Lazarus project took a damn long time to get going.  The point about Geth Slaves?  The whole deal with Legion is reprogramming the Geth that worship the Reapers!  The point about the alliance and the colonies?  There were thousands of people missing, and at the other colonies, they got there too late.  At Ashley/Kaiden's colony, you got there while they were still in the process of collecting humans.  He's just reaching to find more things wrong with the game than there actually are.

He does have a point about how Mordin got that Collector bug though.

[kala1928]

I think you're missing the big picture. The plotholes or minor quirks aren't the reason for the plots awfulness. They just happened to be there in addition to the awfulness.

This pic sums up the game pretty well



Allthough the second collector encounter inside the abandoned ship was maybe the best section of the game.

[Dimitrius]

You don't have to take my word for it, the plot in ME2 isnt that awesome.

https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004

[ehra]

Which you've yet to point out outside of "the big bad is a terrible antagonist because we just deal with his minions and don't fight him directly" even though that's how ME1 was for the most part. All you did was link an article that doesn't even mention the points you've been making in this thread. Yes, there are problems with ME2's plot. There are problems with ME1's plot too. No one has said otherwise, we're just talking about the points you yourself have been trying to make.

[kala1928]

The post-a-silly-picture argument is ALMOST as effective as pointing out grammal errors. Good job, im sure your mom is proud.

[ehra]

What, as apposed to a "link someone else's article to defend my own arguments even though the article doesn't even mention any of the points I've been making" argument?

[kala1928]

What, as apposed to a "link someone else's article to defend my own arguments even though the article doesn't even mention any of the points I've been making" argument?

A well written article strolling around the fact that ME2 had a poor main plot (and a poor distant villain because of the lack of focus on the main plot) is as poor argument as a stupid demotivational picture? Get a fucking clue.

[ehra]

But all this argument has been over has been you talking about the villain, which the article makes no comment on. Not to mention the other inaccuracies in the article that have already been pointed out. Like I said in my other post that you're ignoring, no one said the plot to either game was perfect. We're just arguing with the points you've been making in this thread, points that are completely absent from the article that's supposed to be supporting your case.

Neither "argument" really has anything to do with the topic, which is the villain and his presence in the game.

[skydivingninja]

The article does mention the "stupid proxy war with bug guys," but only briefly.  That's the gist of the article that I got that matches kala's arguments, but as we've already said, ME1 was a big proxy war with Geth and Saren, and you don't see Sovereign till the last few minutes. 

[kala1928]

Nor has anyone even given it a try to counter any of the arguments about the villain except chanting 'puppet puppet puppet puppet puppet puppet saren puppet puppet collector' yeah everyone gets it you aren't supposed to fight man vs mile-long-spaceship but THATS NOT THE POINT.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

What is the argument we are even having?

I'm so confused.

[kala1928]

ME1 was a big proxy war with Geth and Saren

There was nothing 'proxy' about ME1's plot. It advanced the general plotlline of the supposed trilogy by miles and got it going. ME2? Not so much..

[kala1928]

What is the argument we are even having?

I'm so confused.

Everyone has forgot as the common case is

I think the thing is that people see someone say bad things about something good and feel like they have to defend it instead of pausing and thinking for a second which could lead to the realization of "Yeah that thing does kind of suck in it, I agree, but overall its still really great!"