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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Samsara on December 17, 2009, 10:19:26 AM
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Allowing some freedom of expression, without blatant bashing is important. So I'll take up the mantle of being somewhat critical of an album most DT fans think is the best thing since sliced bread...an opinion I very much disagree with. :)
For me, Scenes from a Memory has its moments. But like many songs that they did following this record, it was really derivative of other things. For example, the structure. The first thing I hear is: spoken intro, instrumental, third song up-tempo to get the pace going. Hello, Operation: Mindcrime. I'm not a concept album expert, but obviously certain things were directly taken from albums the band admired, and I believe they even said so at the time, saying they brought concept records they liked into the studio with them to use as models.
Um...ok. I really don't think Pink Floyd sat down and said "hey, lets take these five records and make a concept record using these as templates." Same thing with Queen, Iron Maiden, Queensryche, Judas Priest, The Who, anyone else that did concepts.
Does it work? Sure, the album, like I said earlier, has its moments. Overture, Strange Deja Vu, Home, The Spirit Carries On, some darn good songs. It's not a BAD album by any stretch. The concept isn't exactly riveting. It's a little run-of-the-mill. But is SFAM DT's pinnacle work? Not in my opinion it isn't. It's a concept record that showcases the musical talent of the band, with its weakest point being its reliance on the structure and flow of other concept albums, and an overall average storyline, at best.
I'm not slagging the band at all. I enjoy SFAM. But the gushing love the record receives is sorta beyond me. Frankly, I thought Six Degrees (the whole song, lyrically and story-wise) was a lot more stimulating (considering that could be its own album with a little more to it) from a conceptual perspective.
So, SFAM fans. Tell me why you love the album so much and hopefully a CONSTRUCTIVE discussion can take place. Consider this thread to be an exercise to show that criticism can lead to productive (even if the disagreement remains, and it will) commentary.
Begin. :)
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Not my favorite album, or even my favorite DT album, but it still gets very high marks from me for being a terrific album in just about every respect.
Great story, with interesting characters and a plot twist that is both well-executed and unexpected. Great structure and flow. Great overall mucisianship. If anything, the album only suffers a bit solely from the standpoint of having some weak individual songs. Yes, there are some great ones. But there are plenty that aren't great. But despite that, as a concept album it works because those weaker songs fill an important role in the structure of the album. Thus, the album as a whole, is much better than the sum of its individual parts.
As far as being derivative of Mindcrime, I don't much see it. Yes, there are some superficial similarities. But they don't take away from the album's overall quality one bit in this fan's opinion. And they aren't nearly as similar as many would suggest. Intro->instrumental->up-tempo song? Yes. But that's about where the similarity ends.
SFAM opening:
1. Intro song that has a spoken word part and then a mellow ballady song that sets up the storyline and some of the musical themes.
2. Instrumental that is an overture and more fully sets out the musical themes for the entire album.
3. Up-tempo song that really kicks off the story.
OM:
1. Intro that is not a song and is some samples and spoken-word dialog.
2. Instrumental that is not an overture and doesn't really set up any major musical themes, but gets reprised at the very end of the album as a nice way to bookend the story.
3. Up-tempo song that really kicks off the story.
Yeah, I see some similarities. But what see more is just two different things that work well in the context of their respective albums that have some major differences as well. Really, we just have two great concept albums that don't really need to be compared. Did DT use OM as a major influence? Sure. Does that somehow detract from how good an album SFAM is? Not to me. I would much rather enjoy it for how good it is, and embrace the fact that DT are very open about their musical influences and are able to weave them into their own music so well to take those influences to a different level.
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I agree with you on the concept. It's half-baked, unoriginal and dumb.
But the music... The music! :metal :metal :metal
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Good post Sam. You're right about SFAM not being DT's pinnacle work, but I think it was definitely pivotal (obviously). I think people tend to get stuck on it if they liked it a lot at first and it's hard to get out of that rut. It happened to me and I didn't like SDOIT at all, but now I think SDOIT surpasses SFAM at least compositionally, but then again, they are two very different albums and it basically comes down to preference.
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Don't get worked up over the Mindcrime reference, bosk1. I brought it up because it was the first three songs having a similar structure and flow (actually, almost identical structure and flow). But that was it. Move past it to the overall point that example was making. :)
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Don't get worked up over the Mindcrime reference, bosk1. I brought it up because it was the first three songs having a similar structure and flow (actually, almost identical structure and flow). But that was it. Move past it to the overall point that example was making. :)
Oh, I'm not worked up. I see your point. I just don't completely buy it as a very good comparison. Hey, I at least give you credit for being able to make a good argument about it as opposed to Kelly G.'s, "Oh no! They're just ripping off Mindcrime! The main character's name is Nicolas! How unoriginal! They can't possibly be a good band with original ideas of their own!" *we need a smiley that simultaneously shakes its head, rolls its eyes, and laughs*
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I can understand criticism as it isn't a perfect piece, and the individual songs don't really work to me. But I listen to this album a few times a week in its entirety and I never get sick of it. I love the experience of it; the journey one takes when listening. I'd put it in the top tier of concept albums, not necessarily for being the best story being told or anything but simply because I love it as a whole and it falls into the category. Yes, the similarities are glaring in certain spots to Mindcrime, which I also love (which well might be my favorite concept album), but I always saw them as more complimentary. I've accepted that DT wear their influences on their sleeves. I can either accept it and move on or simply sit there and nitpick until it hinders my enjoyment. The similarities to other artists and songs has very rarely ever deterred me from listening to the band's music and appreciating it for what it is (...I think the most has been a slight aggravation at how "Tool-ish" The Great Debate is).
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DT wanted to make a "classic" concept record similar to the concept albums of the bands you mentioned. It's not really derivative in terms of structure because that's not what the band wanted to do. More experimental prog bands-- that is, prog bands that aren't as much as a homage to classic prog and metal as DT-- tend to do very different things when they set out to make what they consider concept albums, focusing less on a straightforward narrative and more on a postmodern approach. dredg's El Cielo and BtBaM's Colors are much more "unique" in their approach than Scenes.
DT have never been as experimental or "true" progressive as a lot of the modern prog bands as much as they've just been one of the most successful at bridging heavy metal with 70s prog. I like Scenes for what it is. It's not the most original idea ever, but it's a damn good record. I don't blame them for not really doing anything new with it; Dream Theater seem to be more about updating ideas "proven over time" than taking big creative risks, anyway.
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*we need a smiley that simultaneously shakes its head, rolls its eyes, and laughs*
:jamaritard:
But yeah, I agree with Samsara, basically. It's an average album, for me. It has some stellar moments, no doubt, but as a whole, and some songs. . .it doesn't click well. Yet, The Spirit Carries On is a top 15 song for me.
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The song's are pretty meh when you listen to them on their own. Its way better to listen to the whole thing from start to finish which is why it ranks #4 album for me. Overture 1928 is an exception though and Fatal Tragedy.
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*wall of text*
Let me stop you right there. I have no clue where you're coming from. Sliced bread sucks, dude.
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I'm absolutely no expert on classic progressive concept albums, as I don't have enough experience in classic prog to be able to say anything about it, so I'll pass, but bosk's post sounds perfectly reasonable.
But I definitely want to explain my worship (my all-time favourite album since I've discovered it) for SFAM, and a few different reasons for it. Actually I also wrote a pretty long post in the "bashing" thread yesterday asking for more details and stuff only to find out 8 posts appeared in the meantime and the thread got locked :P
First is the concept. I agree that it's not anything revolutionary. I agree the separated storylines are very simple and far from original. But it's the way they use all the time chaos and how it's all illustrated by the music that makes it amazing. It's full of hidden lyrical references everywhere, links between the '28 and '99 characters, and what seems pretty simple turns out to be very complex in reality - I remember it took me around two months to fully understand the whole story, and I know I wasn't the only one. It's not just "here's a normal story" type of concept, it manages to make a pretty simple storyline a really big, interesting concept that takes a lot of listening and thinking in order to be fully appreciated. Also, I really like the characters - Nicholas feels truly real, we're following him and his thoughts and emotions, while the past characters feel distant indeed. It might not be the deepest psychological concept around, but... well.
Second I would like to mention something I see in this thread and what I'd seen lots of times before - "the songs on SFAM are good when listening to the whole album but average when listened separately". I absolutely cannot agree with this in any way. Although actually a single "unit" on the album is a scene rather than a song (as it usually really doesn't work if a scene is made of two tracks and you listen to only one), every of these scenes has something great and unique about them. Regression is one of my favourite, if not favourite, album intro ever. The way it gets the listener into the atmosphere and manages to really work truly relaxing is something unique, I don't know any album working like that (Terry Brown's voice on the album is one of the most amazing things about it). Each and every single one of the others has a purpose on the album AND is a very well-written, strong song in itself. An album that's excellent when listened to in entirety is great - an album made of excellent songs that are even better when listening to the album is even better. And it is SFAM.
You've probably found out already I consider Home my all-time Dream Theater favourite song and one of my favourites overall. Finally Free and Fatal Tragedy are also two amazing songs, with some very remarkable parts and finding the balance perfectly. The only song I can say is weaker in itself is The Dance of Eternity, but it definitely works in context on the album and especially when listening to the whole Scene Seven with One Last Time as part two. I could write more about each song on the album, but now is not the right moment I guess. But if you're interested - no problem.
Third, I was talking about balance a moment ago. And this is the main, most important and key reason why this is my favourite album ever. It contains absolutely everything that I love the most in DT's music in the perfect proportions, and there is also a reason why they're one of my all-time favourite bands. You might have heard this already, but the balance is perfect in every way:
- dark and light - for example, Home is certainly the former, Through Her Eyes is the latter. Sometimes the two contrast, sometimes complement each other during one song. It's just real, without an obvious attempt to write an album of this style or the other - it's just a band doing what's natural. And I really feel it when listening, going through a whole variety of different moods, but never feeling the transition is too strong. That's how it is in reality. And how it should be.
- heavy and light - there are some of the heaviest DT moments until 1999 (well, some of the later songs, e.g. The Glass Prison or A Nightmare to Remember and the whole Train of Thought changed things a bit) on the album when it's right, and there are some of the calmest to date. They're using it with perfect finesse and experience on SFAM, and it never feels like some part is unnecessarily "br00tal" or "boring", and also it doesn't happen that something feels out of place - and I'm pretty sensitive about this.
- technical and melodic - right, this is probably the most important. People, even around here, accuse DT of going into "technical wankery" on the latest albums. Whatever the case, it without doubt doesn't happen on SFAM. The only song with a long instrumental part is Beyond This Life, but that's how it supposed to be, and though it takes time to get used to, it has its place there. All the others are composed perfectly into the songs, and truly stand out - every single one of the instrumental sections is really great and shows the skills of the band, but never falls into "overkill". Also, there are many beautiful and emotional moments on the album, but then there's also lots of excellent technical instrumental work giving it a lot of musical depth. It contains both some of the best performances of each band member, and some of the most emotional and atmospheric moments in their discography.
That's it I think, at least what's the most important. This album has, and always will have, a special place in my heart. And I'm certain I'll listen to it even if I seriously change my musical tastes for some reason. It has everything I ever need in music - strength and heaviness, melody and beauty, complexity and technicality, depth and lyrics, and most importantly - ATMOSPHERE. Whenever I return to it and listen for another week or two (I don't think I'll ever approach the original "listening time", which was around two full months), I drown in it completely, forgetting anything else exists.
And that's how it should be.
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*wall of text*
Let me stop you right there. I have no clue where you're coming from. Sliced bread sucks, dude.
:rollin
Winnah! :)
Darkes7 - good post. I agree about listening to the individual songs. I actually like a good chunk of it individually. But overall, great post and explanation. in regard to musical wankery, it is there. It really is the beginning of that whole slant from DT.
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Well, thanks ;) but I can't see the "wankery" anywhere in DT. Even though there are some songs on the other albums when I feel it's a bit too much but I can forgive it, I don't see any point where it crosses the line on Scenes from a Memory. Beyond This Life is the most extensive and weird, but with the whole mood of the song it works perfectly. The others are all short enough not to get boring, but long enough to really stand out.
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Agreed. DT get criticized way too much for "wank," and I don't see it. They're just good. Sure, they show case, but I've never thought the soloing to be at "wank" levels.
Of course, there's always people who are going to consider things "wank" just because they're solos and not particularly melodic.
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Actually it was supposed to be "anywhere on SFAM" but this also works. :lol
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BTW, the comment of "SFAM wasn't their pinnacle, 6DOIT was", I would say both together were. I think that time span from '99 to '02 was what one might call Dream Theater's "heyday".
rumborak
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BTW, the comment of "SFAM wasn't their pinnacle, 6DOIT was", I would say both together were. I think that time span from '99 to '02 was what one might call Dream Theater's "heyday".
rumborak
At the very least, it's a heck of a two-album run that is hard to match.
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Absolutely. Given my well-known views about their recent output, they would have to get a "second wind" to ever top those two albums.
rumborak
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That was there 2nd wind. Images and Words and Awake was the first. If BC&SL has a follow up just as good, I'd consider that to be the third.
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That was there 2nd wind. Images and Words and Awake was the first. If BC&SL has a follow up just as good, I'd consider that to be the third.
I agree with the bolded. I don't think BC&SL is good enough to signify any sort of wind, though.
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BC&SL was a huge success for DT, both in terms of sales and fan reaction. Definitely moreso than the last 3 albums.
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I am trying to rate all the DT songs one by one. Do you think its fair to rate Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as one song and rate Scenes From a Memory all individually? I know 6DoIT is actually one song but for the sake of making it a album its better to split it.
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Scenes is the best them
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Do you think its fair to rate Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as one song and rate Scenes From a Memory all individually?
Of course.
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Scenes is the best them
You took word out of my mouth
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Like I said I'd recommend counting scenes instead of separated songs (e.g. Through My Words stands no chance that way). But that's just my idea.
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I agree with most of the OP. SFAM is good, but DT have done far better both prior and since. It may have been a "pinnacle" for the band in terms of intra-band relations, artistic freedom, being able to "start fresh", etc, but I don't consider it anywhere near the discussion of their "musical peak".
And it's said too often, but I think it's at least partially applicable: prog fans get a boner for concept albums. If nothing else, I think that causes some people to be more "lenient" with SFAM than they might be otherwise.
-J
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BC&SL was a huge success for DT, both in terms of sales and fan reaction. Definitely moreso than the last 3 albums.
I was just speaking based on my personal view of the album. I agreed with you on the others, but I see BC&SL as one of their worst albums.
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As I've said before, although I rank SFAM pretty highly (3rd or 4th) I can completely understand those who don't love it. As an album, I think it's one of their strongest from beginning to end, but for individual songs, nothing stands out at me as a top 10 song.
As for the points in the original post, I don't consider comparisons like that really derivative. Probably an obvious influence in structure in forming a concept album, but musically the album just sounds like DT to me :tup
Anyway, Samsara, it's nice of you to start a respectful discussion on the topic.
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Do you think its fair to rate Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as one song and rate Scenes From a Memory all individually?
Nope, they're both a collection of songs on the same topic.
And I think the Metropolis plot is epic, I love the story and it's twists and journey!
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Do you think its fair to rate Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as one song and rate Scenes From a Memory all individually?
Nope, they're both a collection of songs on the same topic.
And I think the Metropolis plot is epic, I love the story and it's twists and journey!
Ok thanks, yeah as I was rating the songs I'm like it doesn't do to album justice they can't their really hold their own as individuals and its hard to rate them against even the lesser DT songs. I'm going to combine all of SFAM into one song and see where its ranks its for sure going to be up high.
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All I know is that after my first listen through...my ears melted from the awesome.
The album is put together is such great precision. It flows like melted butter on bacon. Each song links to each other song in its own unique way. Either through replicated tones or very subtle note similarities. It come together as a very cohesive peice of music.
I remember the Adelaide concert in Jan 2008 where they played pretty much the first 4 songs of scenes...it was amazing. The riffs, lyrics, groove...the album has it all. It's my favorite DT album and almost my favorite album of all time...I don't have a favorite of all time as the changes constantly.
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Sliced bread sucks, dude.
You must eat enormous sandwiches.
"No sliced bread, please. That shit's vile. Just slap a joint of beef between two loaves."
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And it's said too often, but I think it's at least partially applicable: prog fans get a boner for concept albums. If nothing else, I think that causes some people to be more "lenient" with SFAM than they might be otherwise.
I'd say it's something else. A concept can improve an album just as easily as it can bring it down. A forced concept can be a serious weakness when the songs don't work well this way, it also requires really great lyrics (rather than just writing a song and then thinking what it will be about) and deciding where to draw the line between "songs" and "big concept", and drawing it at the wrong point for a certain band can end up with a disaster.
But Scenes From a Memory is the perfect example of a concept album done flawlessly. And it greatly enhances an album that's perfect in itself.
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Actually SFAM is my favorite album by DT and my third favorite of all times (after Remedy Lane and In Absentia).
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I am trying to rate all the DT songs one by one. Do you think its fair to rate Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as one song and rate Scenes From a Memory all individually? I know 6DoIT is actually one song but for the sake of making it a album its better to split it.
Yes it's fair, since that is the way it is.
But what does "fair" have anything to do with it either way?
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BTW, the comment of "SFAM wasn't their pinnacle, 6DOIT was", I would say both together were. I think that time span from '99 to '02 was what one might call Dream Theater's "heyday".
rumborak
This. I was in heaven with these 2 albums.
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BTW, the comment of "SFAM wasn't their pinnacle, 6DOIT was", I would say both together were. I think that time span from '99 to '02 was what one might call Dream Theater's "heyday".
rumborak
This. I was in heaven with these 2 albums.
That was also when DT had the underground status as being the best band in the world, and when pretty much everyone who knew who they were liked them. Now, though they're more popular than ever, it's just not as "cool" to be a fan it seems. Everyone who plays an instrument at least know who DT are, and if they're not fans they seem to have some preformed opinion about them being too technical. That, and the fanbase wasn't as broken as it seems to be now.
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Yeah. I started using the MB not long after Train of Thought, and I don't remember seeing as much contrast in people's opinions. Though I didn't invest nearly as much time in it back then, either.
Then again, they'd only just began to forge the second era of their career back then. There wasn't really any frame of reference, no obvious points of contrast. It was just "I like this album, I don't like this album."
While both pre-SFAM and post-SDOIT material have a hell of a lot in common with each other, they do sound decidedly different. The differences are somewhat exaggerated but definitely there. Before that, there were no real sticks for people to beat each other with. For better or for worse!
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I disagree, I really enjoy the album each listen through. It's in my top 3 DT albums, and is one of my favorites. Always gives me chills throughout the whole thing... I can't name a song off of it that I don't love.
The transition into Fatal Tragedy is amazing, and so is the solo... I've heard DoE get bashed a lot on the forums, but I think it's a really fun song to listen to. Home is just great all around, one of my favorite DT choruses ever. I could go on and on.
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That was also when DT had the underground status as being the best band in the world, and when pretty much everyone who knew who they were liked them. Now, though they're more popular than ever, it's just not as "cool" to be a fan it seems. Everyone who plays an instrument at least know who DT are, and if they're not fans they seem to have some preformed opinion about them being too technical. That, and the fanbase wasn't as broken as it seems to be now.
Uh, no.
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OK.
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I used to like it a lot. Now, I think it has its moments and that it's extremely over-rated.
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for me the (lyrical/story) concept is the last reason i enjoy SFAM... its just full of killer riffs, unisons, great solos, great music in general!!
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Same here . The whole concept itself is rather lame to be honest. It's the music that makes the album so good.
rumborak
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Agree, rumborak. Killer music. So-so storyline, IMO. I still consider it a masterpiece though, because the music is so extremely solid and mind-blowing. The lyrics are very good too when you look at the songs separately. When you link them together to view the great storyline tho, it loses its luster.
The only other thing that kinda bothers me is the dude that appears on some photos on the album cover. He looks like that guy Zach Braff (or whatever his name is) from Scrubs.
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I think the new album is my favourite, I can't stop listening to it.
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It's not my favorite one, it's second after Awake, but I have to be honest, aside from TDOE I haven't listened to any of the songs in maybe a year or more.
But to be fair I've barely listened to DT at all recently, except when the new albums came out. I really respect the music though, I just listened to it so many times back in college that I'm burned out on it and I know every little section.
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It used to be my favorite. Now it's around 8th or 9th. I just find the concept kind of not as cool as I hoped. The references all seem really lazily thrown together. Because of Metropolis pt 1, I for some reason was expecting some sort of gritty film noir type sci fi blade runner shit but instead, I got the 1920s.
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It used to be my favorite. Now it's around 8th or 9th. I just find the concept kind of not as cool as I hoped. The references all seem really lazily thrown together. Because of Metropolis pt 1, I for some reason was expecting some sort of gritty film noir type sci fi blade runner shit but instead, I got the 1920s.
SFAM and Spock's Beard's "Snow" are staples on long drives.
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This thread bump's just given me a thought... what happened to Robwebster? He seemed to just... stop posting. :huh:
On topic, I find SFAM to be a bit of a middle of the pack album. The Met references are kinda cool for the first few listens and it's got some killer songs on it for sure, but once the novelty of the thing wears off... eh. It's not the worst, but it's not the best.
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:lol
Chico...King of ressurecting dead threads...gonna miss him... ;)
Uhm, SFAM has always been an odd one for me. some I don't like at all. Others I love. really a mixed album but not in my top 3.
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Much to my dismay, I feel the same way as the original poster does, but for Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.
I could never get into any song of the entire album besides Misunderstood.
As for Scenes From A Memory,
it's one of my favourite DT albums,
for every reason that fans love it, the way it flows, the way it connects with all the other songs on the album, the way it connects with Metropolis Pt. 1, and of course, the great music..
The concept is actually interesting to me, the way they paced the story, and you don't find out some of the juicy details until later on,
and even then, it's just fun to listen to the whole album with the lyric book in your hands, because it shows what character is saying what.. It's just interesting!
Stand out tracks are Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu, Through My Words, Fatal Tragedy, Beyond This Life, Through Her Eyes, Home, The Dance of Eternity, One Last Time, The Spirit Carries On, and Finally Free...
Damn, I just listed the entire album..
Yeah, it's a great album! The high moments are some of the highest, and the lowest are still pretty damned good!
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I'm not a fan of bombastic concept albums with strictly defined story lines, so that's one reason I don't really like SFAM. Also, as I hear it, there are plenty of 'moments' (as Samsara said), but I don't really like the album as a whole. My least favorite DT album, but, even so, it's better than most other albums I've heard.
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BTW, the comment of "SFAM wasn't their pinnacle, 6DOIT was", I would say both together were. I think that time span from '99 to '02 was what one might call Dream Theater's "heyday".
rumborak
At the very least, it's a heck of a two-album run that is hard to match.
.......Perhaps we just received the first of another two-album run(?)
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BTW, the comment of "SFAM wasn't their pinnacle, 6DOIT was", I would say both together were. I think that time span from '99 to '02 was what one might call Dream Theater's "heyday".
rumborak
At the very least, it's a heck of a two-album run that is hard to match.
.......Perhaps we just received the first of another two-album run(?)
We can certainly hope so. DT's been on an upward streak since BC&SL, and now that the band is re-energized, I wouldn't be surprised if this time in 2013 we get another album on par or even better than ADTOE.
It just goes to show that unlike many bands whose albums degraded in quality over the years to the point where they're barely the same band (I'm looking at you, Metallica), DT is still going strong. Perhaps not as strong as their I&W days, but certainly not all that much less in quality.
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Another Dimension from LTE should have been on here :metal
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SFAM used to be my favorite Dream Theater album. But quickly became my 3rd favorite behind SDOIT and Awake.
Here is what I think though. Yes, Dream Theater has admitted to take reference from what other bands have done, and use it on their own music (intro to Octavarium, the whole structure of Systhemaic chaos, intro to Never enough, etc). But that doesn’t take away from what they done. SFAM is well written, and the story keeps you going from beginning to end. Musically the album is great, every song brings something unique out of at least one instrument. They way they played with harmonies and melodies was very interesting too. The story, in my opinion, is well narrated and flows nicely.
However, the one reason why this album will always be special, is because it has the best ending DT has in any of their albums. That plot twist of a song changed what could’ve been a cheesy ending, into a great story.
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"I don't like this album because it contains sounds, and other albums contain sounds too."
I think many people just need to relax when it comes to music. People put so many barriers in their way, mainly comparison with what has gone before. It's nigh-on impossible not to be influenced in some way by what you've heard. Think of them as templates on which you can build your own work. So just throw that aside and appreciate every album on its own merit, for what music it and it alone provides. Your horizons will broaden considerably.
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It's a very good album, one that helped bring me back to DT in the late 90's, as I was not a fan of Awake and hadn't really heard much of FII. And the songs hold up well over time, especially as a unified album. I'd likely rank it third of DT albums, behind Images & Words and Train of Thought.
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So nobody else shares me feeling that "Another Dimension" by LTE should have been included on SFAM? :justjen :'(
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So nobody else shares me feeling that "Another Dimension" by LTE should have been included on SFAM? :justjen :'(
Another Dimension was written, recorded, and released before SFAM was even written. I don’t understand your point.
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I loved Scenes when it first came out. It was easier for me to get into than the two albums they released after it. However, since the Magini-era started, it’s simply fallen down in any kind of album ranking that may be in my head. Not because I like it less than I did when it was released, but because I just like their three most recent albums more.
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I have not listened to it in forever. Putting it on right now, excited.
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I have not listened to it in forever. Putting it on right now, excited.
The same here. So I decided to listen again a few day ago and was...blown away! What a great album!
B.Lee
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Through Her Eyes came up on shuffle a few days ago.
God, that's a great song.
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Just arrived at Fatal Tragedy. Fuck me, what a fantastic song.
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Just arrived at Fatal Tragedy. Fuck me, what a fantastic song.
Oh, yes it is, and it's not the only one. Btw, I absolutely love MP's drum sound on that album.
B.Lee
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While listening I realized how absurdly internalized I have all his drum parts :lol
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I hold it in high regard as one of DT's best, if not their best.
The departure from FII was extreme. I think that's what garnered the attention and love for SFAM. Not that FII was bad, but with all the struggles the band had with the record company and all those things that happened during the FII era, SFAM sounded like a true Dream Theater album. It was a return to form that was well received by fans.
There was hype surrounding the release. Jordan Rudess was now in the band. With the success of Liquid Tension Experiment, fans were excited about a DT album with Rudess on keys. I also remember the DT website unveiling small pieces of the album cover for the weeks leading up to the release. Then when people saw the title, it was game on. Plus, there was an audio snippet of the main riff in "Home" that got people excited.
It was the perfect storm. DT played their cards right and fans loved the release.
Looking back, I could do without the storyline. It doesn't continue with the theme from Metropolis part 1. Personally, I don't revere SFAM because of the story. I revere it because of the music.
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So nobody else shares me feeling that "Another Dimension" by LTE should have been included on SFAM? :justjen :'(
Another Dimension was written, recorded, and released before SFAM was even written. I don’t understand your point.
No, I'm saying it should have been kept and used on SFAM :tup
Agree or not?
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So nobody else shares me feeling that "Another Dimension" by LTE should have been included on SFAM? :justjen :'(
What does this even mean?
Although LTE2 wasn't released until June 1999, Another Dimension (and the rest of the album) was written and recorded in October-November 1998. During that time, DT was on a break between the last couple rounds of shows in support of FII. They didn't start writing/recording SFAM until February 1999. Putting aside the timing aspect what does your statement that it "should have been included on SFAM" even mean? SFAM already clocks in at 77+ minutes, so it's not like there was room for another nearly 10 minute song.
No, I'm saying it should have been kept and used on SFAM :tup
Why? What purpose would it have served? What would have been removed to make room? And why can't one say the same thing of Acid Rain...or any other song on LTE2?
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Why? What purpose would it have served? What would have been removed to make room?
Could have been used for material/themes/riffs on the album, (the song) could have been expanded. I don't know what it would replace because I haven't thought about a hypothetical alternative album, but I do feel it would fit very well.
And why can't one say the same thing of Acid Rain...or any other song on LTE2?
Because Another Dimension really has a Metropolis-vibe to it, it's just a thought that I have been entertained by with listening to LTE recently :tup
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I have to agree with pg1067. I don't see any way in which Another Dimension has anything to do with SFAM. There is no reason to even bring it up, much less bump a thread that has been dead for 6 1/2 years and has nothing to do with your post to do so. It appears like you are simply spamming the forum. Knock it off.
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I do feel it would fit very well.
Another Dimension really has a Metropolis-vibe to it
That seems to be your only real point, in which case, sure. But to say it "should have been kept and used on" an album they hadn't even started writing yet (aside from the original Metropolis Part 2 that had existed since the FII recording sessions) stretches things far too much.
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There is no reason to even bring it up, much less bump a thread that has been dead for 6 1/2 years and has nothing to do with your post to do so. It appears like you are simply spamming the forum. Knock it off.
Come on Bosk, isn't that a bit unfair? I was really taken back by the comparison when I posted it, sorry if it offends you. (I thought this was a forum for fans though - the same forum that used to make imaginary album covers....... :'( )
Anyway, keep in mind the many times DT used ideas or repurposed stuff. Erotomania in PMU, Beyond this life was a guitar solo spot, Metropolis pt 2 itself was an unused instrumental etc.
edit: Bosk, if it makes you happy, you could transfer the discussion to the "What if? thread" I made a few years ago, I just remembered that it'd fit in well there :)
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Opinions hey?!! :) It's great that there are so many as just as I find it almost impossible to accept that anyone can like TA, I find it just as hard to accept that people don't rate this as the peak, or just about at the peak, of DT's career output.
For me SFAM is just about perfect. Maybe it was just the right time and right place for me personally when it was released but that album together with Images remain (and I reckon always will remain) as my favourite 2 DT releases ever and are both in my Top 10 releases of all time.
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It's not been a favorite of mine either. Of course, it was pretty much blasphemous to admit that back then, especially when Six Degrees came out, but apparently it's not as much a minority opinion as it used to be.
That said, I saw them 5 times on that tour including the Live Scenes show so I was kind of burnt out on it at that point. It's not horrible of course, but the bar was raised.
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As you can probably tell from my recent thread, I did sour on SFAM quite a bit. I guess the band is at their best when they’re struggling.
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Good post Sam. You're right about SFAM not being DT's pinnacle work, but I think it was definitely pivotal (obviously). I think people tend to get stuck on it if they liked it a lot at first and it's hard to get out of that rut. It happened to me and I didn't like SDOIT at all, but now I think SDOIT surpasses SFAM at least compositionally, but then again, they are two very different albums and it basically comes down to preference.
Same for me after SCORE SDOIT has replaced SFM as my most favorite DT concept album.
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Scenes and Dix Degrees are my favorite two, and I seem to like them more and more with time.
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Other than Tommy, Operation Mindcrime, & Dark Side of the Moon (or was it The Wall?) what other concept albums were used as templates? I'm really bad at finding similarities when it comes to this stuff. I haven't even heard Operation Mindcrime yet.
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Other than Tommy, Operation Mindcrime, & Dark Side of the Moon (or was it The Wall?) what other concept albums were used as templates? I'm really bad at finding similarities when it comes to this stuff. I haven't even heard Operation Mindcrime yet.
I don't think "template" is the right word. As I recall, they had a few concept albums in mind to use as "inspiration" for crafting SFAM together into a concept album. But I don't remember them saying they used any particular template.
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Herrick needs to listen to O:M. I thought I was the last person on Earth to listen to it. It is worth your time. Please do it.
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Scenes from a Memory is the greatest prog metal record Dream Theater has ever written. But I love Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence more. It does interesting things with production, seems to have songwriting more at the forefront than SFAM, and is just as epic. This is also just my opinion, of course. Disc 2 is its own thing entirely, and reads like a more deliberate, condensed but more intense SFAM.
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...but obviously certain things were directly taken from albums the band admired, and I believe they even said so at the time, saying they brought concept records they liked into the studio with them to use as models.
Ok, so here are my 5 cents in this 9 year old(!) thread.
I don't understand the OP's compaint regarding the "models/templates" thing. I try to take an album for what it is, not for what it is inspired from. Operation: Mindcrime is a great album, SFAM is a great album, they have structural similarities...so what? :) I think that this opinion is based on "thinking too much" rather than just listening to the music and taking it for what it is...
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SFAM not only is DT's best but one of the best albums by any band ever.
Wanna know why? Art needs no explanation.
Why Hopper's Nighthawks is a masterpiece? It's just people in a downtown diner late at night, right?.
Well.. If you can only see that. Art is not for you.
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SFAM not only is DT's best but one of the best albums by any band ever.
Wanna know why? Art needs no explanation.
Actually it does, hence why legions of art scholars spill gallons of ink about the merits of particular works of art and entire college courses can revolve around an artist and his body of work.
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Why Hopper's Nighthawks is a masterpiece? It's just people in a downtown diner late at night, right?.
Well.. If you can only see that. Art is not for you.
I actually had to google to see what that was. Didn't know it by name. I would put that painting in the same category as the dogs playing poker painting. THAT's the thing about art.
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I was responding to a FII thread, and saw this thread underneath it, not realizing I was the original poster...NINE YEARS ago.
Seriously, WTH are we bumping threads from nine years ago? :rollin :rollin
And for the record, SFAM has grown on me a little in those nine years. Still think it isn't the genre-defining masterpiece some make it out to be, but it is better than how I viewed it back in 2009 when I made the original post.
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I think I am the only one who thinks that LSFNY > Scenes. Every song on Live Scenes is much better played, better sang than on Scenes. I guess I feel that way because LSFNY was the first album I ever heard from DT. When I finally got the chance to listen to Scenes, I immediately didn't like the production and thought it sounded much better on Live Scenes. There, I said it. :P
Take the free improvisation outro of Finally Free as an example.. One of the best things DT ever did.
Take the solo with that female singer..
Take the (even gayer than in the album) Through Her Eyes version
Overture and Strange Deja Vu sound much better live too
Through My Words is soooooo much better on Live Scenes
Well.. everything is.
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I think I am the only one who thinks that LSFNY > Scenes. Every song on Live Scenes is much better played, better sang than on Scenes. I guess I feel that way because LSFNY was the first album I ever heard from DT. When I finally got the chance to listen to Scenes, I immediately didn't like the production and thought it sounded much better on Live Scenes. There, I said it. :P
Take the free improvisation outro of Finally Free as an example.. One of the best things DT ever did.
Take the solo with that female singer..
Take the (even gayer than in the album) Through Her Eyes version
Overture and Strange Deja Vu sound much better live too
Through My Words is soooooo much better on Live Scenes
Well.. everything is.
I agree with this, but can we not use gayer like that? Much appreciated.
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I think I am the only one who thinks that LSFNY > Scenes. Every song on Live Scenes is much better played, better sang than on Scenes. I guess I feel that way because LSFNY was the first album I ever heard from DT. When I finally got the chance to listen to Scenes, I immediately didn't like the production and thought it sounded much better on Live Scenes. There, I said it. :P
Take the free improvisation outro of Finally Free as an example.. One of the best things DT ever did.
Take the solo with that female singer..
Take the (even gayer than in the album) Through Her Eyes version
Overture and Strange Deja Vu sound much better live too
Through My Words is soooooo much better on Live Scenes
Well.. everything is.
This is not an uncommon reaction for someone who has been exposed to material via a live album and then hears the studio versions of the songs after becoming fond of the live album.
That said, and while I think LFSNY is DT's best live album, I don't agree with most of the individual points you made. The outro to Finally Free is fine for a live recording, but it's nothing but a live device that most bands use at the end of a set. The JP/Theresa Thomason solo is something I typically skip because I don't care for the wailing gospel sound that Theresa uses. I have no idea what you're talking about as it relates to Through Her Word, and I'll leave the homophobic comment alone. Also, MP and JP's backing vocals on Fatal Tragedy are flat.
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I think I am the only one who thinks that LSFNY > Scenes. Every song on Live Scenes is much better played, better sang than on Scenes. I guess I feel that way because LSFNY was the first album I ever heard from DT. When I finally got the chance to listen to Scenes, I immediately didn't like the production and thought it sounded much better on Live Scenes. There, I said it. :P
Take the free improvisation outro of Finally Free as an example.. One of the best things DT ever did.
Take the solo with that female singer..
Take the (even gayer than in the album) Through Her Eyes version
Overture and Strange Deja Vu sound much better live too
Through My Words is soooooo much better on Live Scenes
Well.. everything is.
I agree with this, but can we not use gayer like that? Much appreciated.
Sorry, I didn't mean it in a negative way. I like Through Her Eyes and I have nothing against homosexuals. But suppose you are gay and someone calls a song, an action or anything "gay", why would you be offended? Only if you choose to be. If I describe a heavy song by saying it is manly, it has balls, would heterosexuals be offended? I don't think so.
There's a world of difference between calling something "gay" and being genuinely prejudiced and offensive against homosexuals. Context matters.
Sorry for the offtopic.
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This is not an uncommon reaction for someone who has been exposed to material via a live album and then hears the studio versions of the songs after becoming fond of the live album.
Yea, I guess you are right. Maybe if I had listened to the studio album first I would appreciate it more than the live one.
That said, and while I think LFSNY is DT's best live album, I don't agree with most of the individual points you made. The outro to Finally Free is fine for a live recording, but it's nothing but a live device that most bands use at the end of a set. The JP/Theresa Thomason solo is something I typically skip because I don't care for the wailing gospel sound that Theresa uses. I have no idea what you're talking about as it relates to Through Her Word, and I'll leave the homophobic comment alone. Also, MP and JP's backing vocals on Fatal Tragedy are flat.
If the outro to Finally Free was recorded on studio, I think it would have made the song better. I don't think Theresa's singing is amazing, but mixed with Petrucci soloing, it certainly is. I agree with you about the backing vocals. Not only on Fatal Tragedy, but overall, they are not so good.
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I think I am the only one who thinks that LSFNY > Scenes. Every song on Live Scenes is much better played, better sang than on Scenes. I guess I feel that way because LSFNY was the first album I ever heard from DT. When I finally got the chance to listen to Scenes, I immediately didn't like the production and thought it sounded much better on Live Scenes. There, I said it. :P
Take the free improvisation outro of Finally Free as an example.. One of the best things DT ever did.
Take the solo with that female singer..
Take the (even gayer than in the album) Through Her Eyes version
Overture and Strange Deja Vu sound much better live too
Through My Words is soooooo much better on Live Scenes
Well.. everything is.
I agree with this, but can we not use gayer like that? Much appreciated.
Yeah I was kind of offended by that - nothing about JP is gay. :biggrin:
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I think I am the only one who thinks that LSFNY > Scenes. Every song on Live Scenes is much better played, better sang than on Scenes. I guess I feel that way because LSFNY was the first album I ever heard from DT. When I finally got the chance to listen to Scenes, I immediately didn't like the production and thought it sounded much better on Live Scenes. There, I said it. :P
Take the free improvisation outro of Finally Free as an example.. One of the best things DT ever did.
Take the solo with that female singer..
Take the (even gayer than in the album) Through Her Eyes version
Overture and Strange Deja Vu sound much better live too
Through My Words is soooooo much better on Live Scenes
Well.. everything is.
I agree with this, but can we not use gayer like that? Much appreciated.
Sorry, I didn't mean it in a negative way. I like Through Her Eyes and I have nothing against homosexuals. But suppose you are gay and someone calls a song, an action or anything "gay", why would you be offended? Only if you choose to be. If I describe a heavy song by saying it is manly, it has balls, would heterosexuals be offended? I don't think so.
There's a world of difference between calling something "gay" and being genuinely prejudiced and offensive against homosexuals. Context matters.
Sorry for the offtopic.
Choosing to be offensive is not necessary for being offensive. I have no idea why you'd actually fight really hard to associate the word gay with concept of bad, but if it's super important to you, then I guess I can't do much about that.
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It stretches credulity that one would claim to be unaware of why using 'gayer' in a derogatory context would be offensive. That's all I have to say about that. But:
If I describe a heavy song by saying it is manly, it has balls, would heterosexuals be offended? I don't think so.
I am a heterosexual man and I sometimes find that offensive depending on the context. When people deride an album for lacking 'balls' that sometimes bothers me because it seems like they are looking more for an attitude than the actual music.
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Choosing to be offensive is not necessary for being offensive. I have no idea why you'd actually fight really hard to associate the word gay with concept of bad, but if it's super important to you, then I guess I can't do much about that.
I don't quite understand what you mean. The context where I used the word gay was meant in a positive, good sense, not negative and bad. I see nothing wrong in saying that a song sounds gay and I can't understand why someone would feel personally attacked because of it. And as I said before, I am not homophobic, I have nothing against gay people. In fact, most of the gay people I've ever know were some of the nicest people I've met.
If I say a song is very "black" or "white" or "English" or "American" it doesn't automatically make me into a racist or a xenophobic.
For example.. if you are gay and I say a song is gay, why would you feel offended by it? It is not even personally refering to you or anyone else.. Unless you see "being gay" as an anomaly, an abnormality, an aberration, then yeah, I would understand, but then you would be the homophobic, not me. But if you are gay and if being gay is completely normal to you, what is there to defend? What is there to be offended about?
Now.. when somebody is directly insulting you and intentionally trying to offend you by calling you names, then it is something completely different.
But anyway, I will refrain from using that word to describe songs. I didn't think people were so sensitive and easily offended.
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It stretches credulity that one would claim to be unaware of why using 'gayer' in a derogatory context would be offensive. That's all I have to say about that. But:
It stretches credulity that one would interpret what I wrote as derogatory. How can it be derogatory when I was listing the reasons why the songs are better (positive) than the studio album? I said the song Through Her Eyes was gayer than the studio version, meaning it is better, not worse.
God.. I don't get it.
Maybe we should ban the word gay, homosexual and any other word that refers or relates to homosexuality. Because if you use any of these words to describe something, you are homophobic, offensive! ::)
Why stop there? Ban the word "feminine" and "manly" too. Ban "sexy" too. If you use it to describe the haircut of your girlfriend, then you are being a sexist asshole, you know.
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God.. I don't get it.
Probably best to just leave it at that.
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Probably best to just leave it at that.
I agree.
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Probably best to just leave it at that.
I agree.
You get a pass because I love George Carlin.
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You get a pass because I love George Carlin.
Me too. I actually thought of him after all this discussion. Specially this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUvdXxhLPa8
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SFAM has been my favourite DT album, and maybe favourite album period, since the day it was released. I recently reaffirmed that when I went back and listed to their entire catalogue again for the first time in years. The music is just killer, the slow stuff is the best they’ve ever done, and the story is awesome.
Many newer fans may not realize but for the first few months the “surprise” ending of the story was actually a surprise. The band wasn’t talking and no one was quite sure. That might seem funny now given that its common knowledge but its true. I can remember a massive thread on this or some pre-cursor website full of theories and discussion about what it might be. Someone had a quote about it being “…an endless thread…impossible to break.” Wish I could read it again but it’s probably disappeared.
That was just another element that made it the best album ever recorded.
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It stretches credulity that one would claim to be unaware of why using 'gayer' in a derogatory context would be offensive. That's all I have to say about that. But:
It stretches credulity that one would interpret what I wrote as derogatory. How can it be derogatory when I was listing the reasons why the songs are better (positive) than the studio album? I said the song Through Her Eyes was gayer than the studio version, meaning it is better, not worse.
God.. I don't get it.
Maybe we should ban the word gay, homosexual and any other word that refers or relates to homosexuality. Because if you use any of these words to describe something, you are homophobic, offensive! ::)
Why stop there? Ban the word "feminine" and "manly" too. Ban "sexy" too. If you use it to describe the haircut of your girlfriend, then you are being a sexist asshole, you know.
Yeah, I think leaving it there is just a good idea. I should have you know I'm certainly not some kind of snowflake and I am not making a judgment call on you as a person, nor do I have ill will towards you, but I'm sorry you're so rankled by this. I thought more people in 2018 would understand why using that as a descriptor is a bit of a touchy subject. Carry on, no hard feelings..
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SFAM has been my favourite DT album, and maybe favourite album period, since the day it was released. I recently reaffirmed that when I went back and listed to their entire catalogue again for the first time in years. The music is just killer, the slow stuff is the best they’ve ever done, and the story is awesome.
Many newer fans may not realize but for the first few months the “surprise” ending of the story was actually a surprise. The band wasn’t talking and no one was quite sure. That might seem funny now given that its common knowledge but its true. I can remember a massive thread on this or some pre-cursor website full of theories and discussion about what it might be. Someone had a quote about it being “…an endless thread…impossible to break.” Wish I could read it again but it’s probably disappeared.
That was just another element that made it the best album ever recorded.
While I obviously don't share your view on the record, I remember very much DT staying quiet on the album's ending. They took a big chunk out of the game plan for Operation: Mindcrime, both the opening of the record, and of course with staying fairly quiet about what the ending was. It served DT well.
As I said a few posts up, SFAM is still not my favorite DT album, but I do appreciate it a bit more than when I started this thread years ago.
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You said something very true, when I discovered DT when a friend lent me images and scenes, I got crushed by the virtuosity and got instantly a DT addict...But just some months later I got the live scenes VHS and I got the feeling it was sounding better and even more powerfull and creative !
I couldn't image an album to change me that much :)
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Couple of questions about SFAM :) :
1) What is the news broadcast at the ending of Finally Free about?
2) Is there a mistake in the lyrics of Finally Free; If the whole album is about reincarnation ot transmigration is this passage wrong:
A blinding light comes into view
An old soul exchanged for a new
If iI understand correctly, does it means that the old soul is exchanged for new soul.
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1) What is the news broadcast at the ending of Finally Free about?
The disappearance of JFK Jr.'s plane, which was later discovered to have crashed, killing him, his wife and her sister. MP included it in the outro to help the listener recognize that the story was now back in the present day.