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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: millahh on December 01, 2009, 08:47:11 PM
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So I’ve reached the point in my career that I interview candidates for open positions in our department. As such, I’ve seen a lot of good and bad things from interviewees. I’ve complied the following list of interviewing “do”s and “don’t”s as a public service to DTF. And yes, I have encountered every single one of them.
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When asked a question to which you don’t know or can’t remember the answer:
DO: Say “I don’t know (or don’t remember exact details), but I will get back to you with an answer”
DON’T: Stall for one minute, waiting to get a different question. Don't do this on consecutive questions.
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When asked if a certain establishment is acceptable for the lunch portion of the interview:
DO: Either say “yes”, or “no”. If “no” suggest a reasonable alternative, or offer some guidance.
DON’T: Describe in detail what will happen to your digestive system if you eat a certain food that might be available at the restaurant. Don’t try to find a way to shoe-horn this into the conversation. Please.
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If an interviewer asks if you want to leave your jacket in his office, as you’re going outside for a bit and it’s a hot day:
DO: Politely accept or decline.
DON’T: Decline, following up by saying that the reason is that you forgot to wear an undershirt. Do not then follow that up with a detailed description of the varying nature or pit stains to be contended with in different climates.
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DON’T: Insult or makes jokes about a certain nationality, especially if a person of that nationality is in the room.
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If you’re the ambitious type:
DO: Say that you’re excited to discover how your skills an energy can best serve your prospective employer.
DON’T: Have the attitude that you’re going to “fix” or change the culture of the company, especially when you essentially know nothing about the company. Not only is it arrogant, but it’s also a big red flag that you’d be a bull in a china shop.
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DON’T: Say that a colleague or partner’s work “made you want to kill them”.
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DON’T: Express shock when told that the position requires occasionally interacting with colleagues.
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DO: Know the answers to any reasonably anticipated technical questions.
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DO: Have examples ready for behavioral interview questions.
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DO: Remember that you are interviewing the company, just as much as they’re interviewing you.
DON’T: Reek of desperation, even if you are desperate. Obvious desperation causes the interviewer to question your sincerity.
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DO: Be yourself.
DON’T: Try to be the person you think the interviewer wants you to be. It’s very obvious, and it’s another big red flag. Very few employers (in professional environments) want ass-kissing yes-men. If you don’t have a spine in the interview, why would we expect you to have a spine in a critical work situation?
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DON’T: Be a blatant ass-kisser, either to the interviewer or the company. Yes, I sort of said this before, but it’s sufficiently important to be stated again.
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DO: Have business cards with an email address on them.
DON’T: Have the email address be with AOL.
Feel free to discuss or add to the list.
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If your email address includes 420, don't give it out.
The interesting question would be did any of the don't people get a job anyway?
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The interesting question would be did any of the don't people get a job anyway?
Only for the 1st one. And I was quite surprised. However, he was slotted into an almost purely technical position, rather than a more "organizational" position. He also came it at the same rank as me...despite having ~18 years of industry experience compared to me having four years. And he only got an offer because our top two choices both turned us down...it was hitting desperation time for us.
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DO: Give a firm handshake.
_ _ _ _ _
DO: Speak clearly, and look the person in the eye. Don't stare, but be focused on the conversation.
_ _ _ _ _
DO: When enquiring for available positions (at least in a casual environment), ask to speak to the manager directly, and ask them in person.
_ _ _ _ _
Worked for me, anyway. First two at least are givens in a professional environment, but there are some young'ins on the board.
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DO: Give a firm handshake.
THIS!!!!
I don't think it can be stressed enough.
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DO: Give a firm handshake.
THIS!!!!
I don't think it can be stressed enough.
I interview potential new employees once a semester and a limp handshake is very awkward.
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What do you guys have to say about dress for interviews?
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Also, what's the story behind the AOL e-mail address? Why does it matter?
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Also, what's the story behind the AOL e-mail address? Why does it matter?
Using AOL indicates basic computer illiteracy. If you're interviewing for a job working in technology, your employers don't want such a drastic indicator of incompetence with it. At least, that's what I'd guess.
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When asked a question to which you don't know or can’t remember the answer:
DO: Say “I don’t know (or don’t remember exact details), but I will get back to you with an answer”
DON’T: Stall for one minute, waiting to get a different question. Don't do this on consecutive questions.
It's staggering how many people can't seem to admit they don't know the answer to questions.
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the last job I got they asked me who I would want to have lunch with...I was stumped and asked if I could think on it as they continued the interview. Something they said reminded me of Gary Larson and I used him because I would love to spend time with someone with such "out of the box" humor. The interviewee was a fan, and I got the job :lol
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The hard part for me seems to be getting interviews in the first place.
Any tips for writing cover letters? I feel like it's impossible to write them WITHOUT sounding corny.
And another big problem I'm running into: I'm pushing 30 and I've got a ton of work experience, and I have a college degree. However, it seems that somehow or another I'm not actually qualified enough for any position I'm applying for. I have a degree, but it's never in the right field. I have work experience in this area, but not enough, and not with the right software programs. I know MS Word inside and Out but I've only ever viewed Power Point from afar. I feel like this is hindering my chances...and the fact that I haven't even so much as gotten a phone call for an interview despite the amount of places I've applied to makes me feel like I'm right about this.
It's really very frustrating.
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And while I'm at it:
How long should I wait before getting a response? A week? Two weeks? And how long should I wait before sending a follow up email to ask if I'm still in consideration?
I don't want to badger people and be a pain in the ass, but I also would like to know where I stand and if I should keep wasting my time checking on the status of my application.
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When asked to name your biggest weakness:
DO - Name something that, while a weakness, shows your work ethic, i.e. "I tend to focus so much on the details that I can sometimes be distracted from the big picture..."
DON'T - Run down a list of every plausible way that you have failed in the past, thereby giving the interviewer no reason at all to believe you could even tie your own shoes and brush your teeth in the morning without maiming yourself.
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When the interviewer indicates an interest in your experience in the field:
DO - Explain, succinctly, the broad scope of the works you have done, going into greater detail when prompted.
DON'T - Spout off buzzwords, clichés and catch-alls that you think will wow your potential employer when in reality you have just demonstrated that you are nothing more than a lemming with limited experience at best.
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Come prepared. If you're interviewing for an artist position, BRING A PORTFOLIO! Always have a copy of your resumé, regardless of whether you have already submitted one. If you walk in empty-handed, you will leave empty-handed.
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Do not, I repeat, DO NOT present work you completed for your aunt to help her 2-year old godson learn to read as the first piece (or any piece, for that matter) in your portfolio.
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Also, I'm told NEVER leave an interview without asking the prospective employer questions of your own. Always have questions, even if it's only one.
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Also, I'm told NEVER leave an interview without asking the prospective employer questions of your own. Always have questions, even if it's only one.
That's a tricky one, because the only ones I can usually think of off the top of my head involve pay rate and benefits. And I know you're not supposed to ask those on the first interview, if at all- generally you're supposed to let the interviewer bring that kind of stuff up.
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Ask about where the company sees itself in a few years, or ask about the history or a typical day in the life of an employee. Something to show your interest in the company and the position.
Familiarize yourself with as much as you can to make yourself a more valuable candidate. You can always send an email thanking your interviewer for the opportunity the day of the interview, a few hours later. Give them a week or two, depending on the scope of their process before following up.
Cover letters ARE corny. Introduce yourself, briefly express your interest in the position and tout your skills. It should make then want to read your resume to see what you're made of.
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Neon, take a powerpoint course, or download it and create several presentations at home instead of being on here....oh...and the power of "being a woman" still wins at interviews. I've seen pictures of you....Im still amazed at how the chick got the job because somehow her dress choice of "slutty meets classy meets work appropriate" worked for her in the interview.
Shoes Shoes Shoes.....its amazing how many people look at shoes first. Nice shoes. Polished or buffed.
It's old school like my other example but its still very much true.
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I've progressed through five different job titles in state government, in 8 years. Never once have I had the need to know PowerPoint. I know enough to get by if need be, but 99% of everything I've done required Word or Excel. I know some places are big fans of PowerPoint though. Hopefully you can avoid those places. :)
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Don't do this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT-j_LSWM_A
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I'll expand a bit on what i said above. I'm one of seven people a candidate interviews with, along with them giving a seminar to our entire group. These are all Ph.Ds, almost all with at lest 4 years of experience after getting their doctorate. Pretty much everyone is going to be qualified to perform the basic job functions. What we are trying to discern in the interview is how well they would fit into our corporate culture (not from a conformity standpoint, but someone who is either a complete jellyfish or else a bull in a china shop will be a problem), and what they can bring to the table in terms of potential & new ideas, and whether they're likely to flourish in our company.
Also, what's the story behind the AOL e-mail address? Why does it matter?
Using AOL indicates basic computer illiteracy. If you're interviewing for a job working in technology, your employers don't want such a drastic indicator of incompetence with it. At least, that's what I'd guess.
Yep. It's not a deal-breaker by any stretch, but it will raise eyebrows. It presents the appearance of not being with the times, and being either a dinosaur or a technophobe. Obviously, this doesn't much matter for some jobs, but if you're applying for something computer intensive, it will bring some unwanted scrutiny.
If your email address includes 420, don't give it out.
Yep. Have a professional looking email address. If your current address is nancyboyFTW@yahoo or gluesniffer@gmail, make a new email address just for job stuff.
What do you guys have to say about dress for interviews?
For professional potitions, a suit is appropriate. Doesn't have to be black...grey, brown or blue are fine. You also don't need to go all out with pocket squares and whatnot. For other types of jobs, it will likely be a bit different. But no matter what, be reasonably clean shaven, have you clothes be clean, and don't smell.
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When asked a question to which you don't know or can’t remember the answer:
DO: Say “I don’t know (or don’t remember exact details), but I will get back to you with an answer”
DON’T: Stall for one minute, waiting to get a different question. Don't do this on consecutive questions.
It's staggering how many people can't seem to admit they don't know the answer to questions.
In this situation, it wasn't that he wouldn't admit that he didn't know. Rather, it was something that he used to know, and couldn't quite pull it from the memory banks. That happens, and no one will hold it against you. the problem was that he was awrkwardly stallign for about a minute while he was trying to remember, and was uncomfortable for everyone in the room (this was during the Q&A portion of his seminar).
Neon: Unfortunately, I don't have too much to offer...I don't make decisions on who we bring in to interview. but:
-Cover letters: There are good examples online, and i've found them geared towards all different types of jobs.
-Seeming unqualified: If you have a diverse work background, use it to your advantage...it can illustrate adaptability and that you're a quick/enthusiatic learner.
-Powerpoint: Do you have access to a computer that has it? If so, get to it! There are online tutorials/guides, and it's really not a difficult program. Try making a couple of practice presentations with it...say, one about dominant themes in Neal Peart's lyrics, or one Phladelphia sports history. With PPT, the thought process of making presentations is just as important as using the program itself.
Out of ~15 interviews I've done, I've only received two thank-you emails, and no actual thank-you letters. Is it no longer customary to send these after an interview?
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DO: Give us a reason to hire you.
DON'T: Try to get hired by default (i.e. that we simply can't find anything terribly wrong with you).
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Also, I'm told NEVER leave an interview without asking the prospective employer questions of your own. Always have questions, even if it's only one.
That's a tricky one, because the only ones I can usually think of off the top of my head involve pay rate and benefits. And I know you're not supposed to ask those on the first interview, if at all- generally you're supposed to let the interviewer bring that kind of stuff up.
In addition to what Hyperplex said:
-Ask about advancement potential.
-Ask what attributes are possessed by their most successful employees.
-Ask about the biggest challenges that the company faces, both in day-to-day operation and long-term.
Are you on LinkedIn? If not, get on there (it's like a facebook for professionals and job-seekers). I've had a few people (whom I didn't previously know) contact me regarding possible jobs and internships through it. As much as I don't care for yuppies networking, it works.
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Another question:
For the past five years I have been working for my family. I think this gives me a ton of experience, as I can run a small business from the inside out. I've done everything from store management to bookkeeping to HR/employee type of stuff.
Would a potential employer see this as valid work experience? Or would they just see it as "Oh, whatever, she worked for her family, that must have been a cake job, that doesn't count for anything."
In a cover letter or in an interview, should I disclose that I've worked for family? Or should I just state it as, "I've run a small business with three locations?"
(And it would be easy enough to hide, as my mom and I don't share a last name).
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Another question:
For the past five years I have been working for my family. I think this gives me a ton of experience, as I can run a small business from the inside out. I've done everything from store management to bookkeeping to HR/employee type of stuff.
Would a potential employer see this as valid work experience? Or would they just see it as "Oh, whatever, she worked for her family, that must have been a cake job, that doesn't count for anything."
In a cover letter or in an interview, should I disclose that I've worked for family? Or should I just state it as, "I've run a small business with three locations?"
(And it would be easy enough to hide, as my mom and I don't share a last name).
There's you're answer!
You're under no obligation to disclose that it was a family business...unless they outright ask, in which case, you don't want to lie. I don't think many people would assume that working for the family business is a cake job. In fact, I think many family businnesses push people harder, as there's the sense of family obligation along with the usual employee responsibilities.
The only slight complication I could see is when it comes to references...if it specifies no family members, that could be complicated. In which case, I would simply ask the relevant HR person how they want you to approach it, since your boss was a family member.
Sounds like you should have an ass-kicking resume.
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Out of ~15 interviews I've done, I've only received two thank-you emails, and no actual thank-you letters. Is it no longer customary to send these after an interview?
I always have sent a physical letter in the mail to everyone that I interviewed with. I thought this was the customary thing to do as well.
should I disclose that I've worked for family?
Just mention the company name that you worked for. Don't hide the fact that's it's family if they outright ask, but I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. Stress your job duties and successes you had there.
It's tough feeling like you're not qualified for anything despite having education and experience. But keep in mind that when companies list the qualifications for the job, chances are that no one out there will fulfill all of them. Don't not apply for a job because you don't think you're qualified. If you think you meet half of the criteria you're looking for, chances are you're qualified enough for at least an interview. That's where you need to be able to sell yourself.
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Out of ~15 interviews I've done, I've only received two thank-you emails, and no actual thank-you letters. Is it no longer customary to send these after an interview?
I try to at least send an email (state government is nowhere near as particular about these types of formalities as private businesses are) to say it was nice to meet them and to thank them for their consideration.
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Thanks so much for your help, everyone.
Searching for a job really is aggravating. :lol
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I've said all kinds of things in the past to get a teaching job.
Once i went into an interview and they said "Tell us three interesting things about you!" And it completely threw me, so I told them I was a keen geographer (?) I liked reading, and the best one - When i was younger i was on the youth olympic swimming team (??) Luckily i didn't get that job.
Another one, I heard one of the other candidates talking about the interview questions after she'd gone in before me, and they were talking about this new assessment thing called APP over here, having never heard of it, i dropped it into conversation with a member of staff from the school and asked them what it was, then went into the interview and blew them away with how much i (didn't) know - i just repeated this other womans words. Didn't get that one either, can you guess why?!
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DON’T: Insult or makes jokes about a certain nationality, especially if a person of that nationality is in the room.
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:d'oh:
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Once i went into an interview and they said "Tell us three interesting things about you!" And it completely threw me, so I told them I was a keen geographer (?) I liked reading, and the best one - When i was younger i was on the youth olympic swimming team (??)
Ah yes...a behavioral interviewing question.
They're looking for things that will somehow be an indicator of how you'll approach the job. The concept of behavioral interviewing is using your past behavior as a predictor of how you'll perform in the potential new role. Think of things that say something about who you truly are, rather than just "factoids" that don't really say a whole lot.
This link gives a reasonable explanation, and has a good list of the qualities that you might want to try to illustrate with your answers:
https://www.jobinterviewquestions.org/questions/behavioral-interview.asp
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DON’T: Insult or makes jokes about a certain nationality, especially if a person of that nationality is in the room.
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:d'oh:
Yeah, that was a good one. The guy made a joking, slightly derogatory reference towards Germans...and all 15 or so of us in the room all turned to look at the German guy. The expression on the candidate's face at that moment was priceless.
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the org I work for is using the STAR format(gotta love HR and their accronyms)
S-situation
T-task
A-action
R-results
all the responses need to come in that format.
what was the situation, what was your task or job, what action did you personaly take, what were the results of the action you took. Come to the interview with good and bad examples.
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One more:
If you have to spend the entire interview talking about how you're a perfect match for our company, we are not a match.
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One more:
If you have to spend the entire interview talking about how you're a perfect match for our company, we are not a match.
Deja vu?
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=6820.0
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This thread is made from the fibres of win. I'll likely be looking for a job in the new year so hopefully I remember it exists in a month or so.
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When asked to name your biggest weakness:
DO - Name something that, while a weakness, shows your work ethic, i.e. "I tend to focus so much on the details that I can sometimes be distracted from the big picture..."
DON'T - Run down a list of every plausible way that you have failed in the past, thereby giving the interviewer no reason at all to believe you could even tie your own shoes and brush your teeth in the morning without maiming yourself.
I've actually had the opposite experience with this Most recruiters want a REAL weakness on the first. For example, I usually say that when lots of work piles up it can get overwhelming for me, but all you can do is prioritize and start going at it in order of priority. I've also been asked to name a time I've failed and been complimented for my maturity when I've been honest about it, because many people won't do this in interviews.
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You basically approached it the same way I said. You say you can get overwhelmed, but you also present a method you utilize to handle the load. You don't sit there and list failng after failing.
Homer Simpson's initial interview at the nuclear power plant comes to mind...
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When asked to name your biggest weakness:
DO - Name something that, while a weakness, shows your work ethic, i.e. "I tend to focus so much on the details that I can sometimes be distracted from the big picture..."
DON'T - Run down a list of every plausible way that you have failed in the past, thereby giving the interviewer no reason at all to believe you could even tie your own shoes and brush your teeth in the morning without maiming yourself.
Even worse DON'T:
DON'T: Name things that only superficially sound like a bad thing, but are in fact a backhanded compliment to yourself. A la "My biggest problem is that I'm always operating at 150%. I just can't stop."
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DO: Actually have done the stuff you put on your resume. I've had candidates, mostly through recruiting agencies, who had put the classic alphabet soup on their resume (XML, SQL, XLST, WTFBBQ etc.), and then when you ask a specific question, they can't answer anything. This also ties into the next one:
DON'T: Try to bullshit your way in. At least for me, I get into "sniff dog" mode when a candidate comes in, and I get an allergic reaction whenever I detect bullshitting. The candidates I have given the green light were the ones that said "You know what, even though I kinda know the broad idea of what you just asked me, I never worked on it, so I can't give you much detail.". That's honest, and it show that in a meeting you will shut up and listen when you don't know something.
DO: Show that you were interested in what other people do at your old job. Nothing worse than somebody who got so entrenched in his own work that he is unable to put his work into the big picture of the company he worked for. Because those are the ones that, after a week, you have to say to: "dude, you worked the whole week on this crap? You didn't think once switching to the other thing that is equally important?"
rumborak
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DO: Send a thank you note in the mail (not via email) to the interviewer
Cover Letters: keep em short and simple.
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DO: Send a thank you note in the mail (not via email) to the interviewer
Disagree. What age do we live in? The 70s?
I have recently gotten a mailed thank-you letter from a candidate. It caused great amusement in our group, and it made him look desperate.
An email is perfectly fine and enough.
rumborak
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It worked for me at getting a job once. Obviously it depends on where you are interviewing. I think it adds a nice personal touch.
Also for the guys DO dress up, with at least a tie
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DO: Send a thank you note in the mail (not via email) to the interviewer
Disagree. What age do we live in? The 70s?
I have recently gotten a mailed thank-you letter from a candidate. It caused great amusement in our group, and it made him look desperate.
An email is perfectly fine and enough.
rumborak
This is something where I was hoping to see people chime in. I certainly wasn't bothered by having gotten an email instead of a snail mail...I just wasn't sure what the standard was these days. Of course, it'll vary by industry...I can certainly see why a computer engineer would laugh at a letter.
What I don't get is why some people who are obviously desperate don't send the thanks-you's. Unless maybe they only send them to the directors, and not to everybody? The problem with doing that is that the directors listen to what the rest of us have to say...
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This is a reformatted example of our evaluation form. it gives a pretty good indication of what we (and most employers) are thinking about. We rate from 0-4 as follows.
Trait
Unsatisfactory (0)
Some Deficiencies Evident (1)
Satisfactory (2)
Exceptional (3)
Clearly Outstanding 4)
Breadth and depth of technical knowledge in the field
-No knowledge evident.
-Less than we would prefer.
-Meets our requirements for hiring.
-Exceeds our expectations of average candidate.
-Thoroughly versed in job and very strong in associated areas.
Breadth and depth of knowledge of drug development
-No knowledge evident.
-Less than we would prefer.
-Meets our requirements for hiring.
-Exceeds our expectations of average candidate.
-Thoroughly versed in job and very strong in associated areas.
Experience
-None for this job nor any related experience.
-Would prefer more for this job.
-Adequate for job applied for.
-More than adequate. Has some experience in related areas.
-Totally experienced in job. Has strong experience in related areas.
Communication ability
-Could not communicate. Will be severely impaired in most jobs.
-Some difficulties. Will detract from job performance.
-Sufficient for adequate job performance.
-More than sufficient for job.
-Outstanding ability to communicate.
Interest in position and our organization.
-Showed no interest.
-Some lack of interest.
-Appeared genuinely interested.
-Very interested. Seems to prefer type of work applied for.
-Totally absorbed with job content. Conveys feeling only this job will do.
Overall motivation to succeed
-None exhibited. No concern for personal future.
-Not up to average levels. Shows little desire to succeed.
-Average desire to succeed.
-Highly motivated. Wants to succeed and advance.
-Extremely motivated. Has very strong compulsion to succeed.
Appearance and habits. (Consider the position applied for while evaluating)
-Very sloppy in appearance or unacceptably dressed; or unacceptable personal habits.
-Dress or grooming less than satisfactory; or some offensive personal habits.
-Properly dressed and groomed. Few poor personal habits.
-Very well dressed and groomed. No offensive habits.
-Presented excellent appearance, maintained high level of behavior throughout interview.
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What we do for our interviewing process is that we assign general areas of topics to the different interviewers. E.g. I would grill them about programming, somebody else would grill them about machine learning theory etc. Then we all get together at the end of the day and put in a vote.
rumborak
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I have a degree, but it's never in the right field.
This seems odd to me, but I don't know if things just work differently here. In the UK, there are very few jobs that require specific degrees, and they tend to be very highly technical fields like law and medicine (or continuing research/academia in the particular subject, obviously). Pretty much all other graduate jobs just require you to have a degree, preferably in something generally related or similar, but even then that's rarely required if you can demonstrate relevant skills. For example, most jobs in finance and business prefer you to have a numerical degree, but if you can show that you are competent at the basics of mathematics, then the degree subject is not important.
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What we do for our interviewing process is that we assign general areas of topics to the different interviewers. E.g. I would grill them about programming, somebody else would grill them about machine learning theory etc. Then we all get together at the end of the day and put in a vote.
rumborak
I would be the person assigned to asking them how many beers they're able to pound at happy hour, then.
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I have a degree, but it's never in the right field.
This seems odd to me, but I don't know if things just work differently here. In the UK, there are very few jobs that require specific degrees, and they tend to be very highly technical fields like law and medicine (or continuing research/academia in the particular subject, obviously). Pretty much all other graduate jobs just require you to have a degree, preferably in something generally related or similar, but even then that's rarely required if you can demonstrate relevant skills. For example, most jobs in finance and business prefer you to have a numerical degree, but if you can show that you are competent at the basics of mathematics, then the degree subject is not important.
Agreed...unless you're in a technical field, once you're a couple of years out of college, all that matters is that you have a degree...not what it's in. At that point, having it is simply a demonstration that you've got what it takes to get a degree (a basic level of intellect, ability to get things done without someone looking over your shoulder every second of every day, etc.).
Here's another one I just thought of, and have also seen:
-If the person has a title, get it right. I received an email from a candidate addressed to "Mr. millahh", rather than "Dr. millahh". I'm not bothered that I wasn't addressed as "doctor" ("I didn't spend five years in evil graduate school to be called "mister", thank you very much."). Rather, that mistake shows a lack of attention to detail...and a detail that some people might be touchy about. And if you aren't paying attention to details in a situation as critical as a job hunt, why should anyone expect that you'll suddenly be detail-oriented once you actually get the job?
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the org I work for is using the STAR format(gotta love HR and their accronyms)
S-situation
T-task
A-action
R-results
all the responses need to come in that format.
what was the situation, what was your task or job, what action did you personaly take, what were the results of the action you took. Come to the interview with good and bad examples.
I interviewed at Target a few months ago, and I'm pretty sure they use the same exact format.
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HR are always coming up with new shit in their hope of justifying the usually bad job they do.
rumborak
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So my latest source of aggravation whilst applying for jobs:
I can't stand these online application things. There's a spot for you to upload your resume but then they still want you to fill out the online application...and all the questions that are asked have answers that can be found on the resume (work history, education, etc).
So why do I need to fill this fucking thing out?
It's not so much that I mind doing it, but why do you want me to upload my resume in the first place?
But the absolute most aggravating thing is when you upload your resume and it automatically "plugs in" all of the information to the online application.
The problem is that with pretty much every job I've ever had I've held at least two different positions, with two different sets of dates, two different pay rates, etc., and the online application table always gets all fucked up.
So I just spent the last hour editing the fucking online application only to have it tell me that it fucking "timed out" and booted me out of the fucking system.
Now, I can't seem to find the original job that I was applying for. I don't understand why it "timed out." It's not like I walked away for half an hour and left it up.
I FUCKING HATE JOB SEARCHING. WHY DOES THIS HAVE TO BE SO FUCKING DIFFICULT?!?!?!?!?!
ASDSAFKJ;SADFLJDSFJKDSFLIDFLSDFA;SLDFJSDFLKAJSDFA'LJVDNVADSFASEREWPRIFIASDF'FKJSDAF'SDFJ
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HR are always coming up with new shit in their hope of justifying the usually bad job they do.
rumborak
Well stated sir. In my field, cooking, interviews usually last about five minutes, but the real deal is the tryout. Usually, your given three hour to do an appetizer, a fish, and a meat dish. Then the executive chef and the GM eat and critique it. Very Iron Chef/Top Chef like. Have a bad day on that day in the kitchen and you are still unemployed.
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I absolutely agree with you on that online job search thing.
The thing is though, the reason for this double-entry thing is so that they can do a text search on their applicant database for certain qualifications. Then, when they found someone they will actually look at the uploaded resume in more detail. It's totally annoying though, I agree.
rumborak
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I absolutely agree with you on that online job search thing.
The thing is though, the reason for this double-entry thing is so that they can do a text search on their applicant database for certain qualifications. Then, when they found someone they will actually look at the uploaded resume in more detail. It's totally annoying though, I agree.
rumborak
A keyword search of the uploaded resumes should be able to render all but a very basic application unnecessary...
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I used search and found this thread so I'll post it here. I have an interview with the Hilton Hotel tomorrow!! It's at 2 o'clock and I think I'm ready :D
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I used search and found this thread so I'll post it here.
:clap: (and I'm completely sincere)
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I used search and found this thread so I'll post it here.
:clap: (and I'm completely sincere)
I know eh, I wouldn't have made a thread just for that if there weren't other threads for it either.
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Another thing I absolutely HATE about interviews:
I hate the question, "Where do you see yourself in five years?"
How do I answer that without sounding cheesy and fake?
Because what I'd really like to say is, "Well actually, I see myself filing for bankruptcy if I don't get a fucking job soon, thanks for asking."
But really, what kind of answer is an interviewer looking for? Because I hardly think, "I'd like to be really rich and traveling the world" is appropriate. I feel like it just sounds too flighty. And the thing is, I don't really have any career ambitions. The one thing I always really wanted to do quickly went to the wayside after I got out of college and realized what a shitty industry it is (radio). And I don't want to be like "Oh yeah if you hire me today, I'd like to be CEO within five years."
And speaking of radio industry...most of my early work experience was at various radio stations, and that's the only experience any employers seem to focus on...and then I have to explain why exactly I got out of the industry. And somehow, "Because I wasn't willing to move far away to some crap-ass city to work weekend overnight air shifts for the next several years" doesn't seem right either.
What the hell.
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I have a question for you all.
I'm 19 and I need a job to help my parents pay for college. At the moment I'm just hitting up fast food places and small markets looking for a small parttime job.
Unfortunately, I have no work experience.
When asked about work experience either on the application or in person, what is the best thing to say?
It seems that a person with no work experience is almost instantly disqualified.
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On a semi-related subject, funny comments that appeared in actual employee reviews...
Since my last report, this employee has reached rock bottom and has started to dig."
"His men would follow him anywhere, but only out of morbid curiosity."
"I would not allow this employee to breed."
"This employee is really not so much of a 'has been', but more of a definite 'wont be'."
"Works well under constant supervision and cornered like a rat in a trap."
"When she opens her mouth, it seems that it is only to change feet."
"He would be out of his depth in a parking lot puddle."
"This young lady has delusions of adequacy."
"He sets low personal standards and then consistently fails to achieve them."
"This employee is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot."
"This employee should go far, and the sooner he starts, the better."
"Got a full 6 pack, but lacks the plastic thing to hold it all together."
"A gross ignoramus - 144 times worse than an ordinary ignoramus."
"He certainly takes a long time to make his pointless."
"He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier."
"I would like to go hunting with him sometime."
"He's been working with glue too much."
"He would argue with a signpost."
"He has a knack for making strangers immediately."
"He brings a lot of joy whenever he leaves the room."
"When his IQ reaches 50, he should sell."
"If you see two people talking and one looks bored, he's the other one."
"A photographic memory but with the lens cover glued on."
"A prime candidate for natural deselection."
"Donated his brain to science before he was done using it."
"Gates are down, the lights are flashing, but the train isnt coming."
"Has two brains: One is lost and the other is out looking for it."
"If he were any more stupid, he'd have to be watered twice a week."
"If you gave him a penny for his thoughts, you'd get change."
"If you stand close enough to him, you can hear the oceans."
"Its hard to believe that he beat 1,000,000 other sperm to the egg."
"One neuron short of a synapse."
"Some drink from the fountain of knowledge, he only gargled."
"Takes him 2 hours to watch 60 minutes."
"The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead."
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Lonestar those are great :lol :rollin :lol
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:lol
I apologize for all the quoting that's about to happen. Somehow I missed this thread until now...
Also, what's the story behind the AOL e-mail address? Why does it matter?
Using AOL indicates basic computer illiteracy. If you're interviewing for a job working in technology, your employers don't want such a drastic indicator of incompetence with it. At least, that's what I'd guess.
You mean erotomaniac9@aol.com won't get me a job? :sadpanda:
It's staggering how many people can't seem to admit they don't know the answer to questions.
Very true. I think you come off worse if you try to pretend you know everything. I am getting pretty good at being honest about not knowing things. It's especially easy now since I'm an intern and learning; everyone knows this and expects me to ask questions, etc. I said "I don't know" to one of my patients a few weeks ago (an old woman with dementia on hospice) and she snapped at me, saying "YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING!"... then her face changed and she said "I'm sorry, I'm a little angry." :lol
My supervisor said "I don't know" is the best answer you can give sometimes. When dealing with people in a professional way, sometimes it helps to say "But I could find out..."
And while I'm at it:
How long should I wait before getting a response? A week? Two weeks? And how long should I wait before sending a follow up email to ask if I'm still in consideration?
I don't want to badger people and be a pain in the ass, but I also would like to know where I stand and if I should keep wasting my time checking on the status of my application.
Here, my first piece of advice would be to ask at the interview approximately when you should expect to hear back from them. That way, if they don't get back to you by then you won't be annoying if you contact them, you'll just seem like you care, which is a good thing.
Shoes Shoes Shoes.....its amazing how many people look at shoes first. Nice shoes. Polished or buffed.
This isn't totally true because my shoes suck but I've done quite well in interviews :p
-Seeming unqualified: If you have a diverse work background, use it to your advantage...it can illustrate adaptability and that you're a quick/enthusiatic learner.
Absolutely. You can make almost anything applicable. I put a goddamn liquor store job on my resume while looking for social work internships and was told by the people at one of the hospitals that they really liked the fact that I put that on my resume and applied it to the field. You can find a way to work it. Working in a liquor store helped with my people skills, but mainly exposed me to all types of people with all types of issues and further inspired me to go into the helping professions because of the stuff I encountered (alcoholic customers, depression, coworkers going through domestic violence and girlfriend's lethal drug overdoses, etc.). I put this eloquently on my resume because I had very little direct social work-related experience and people liked it.
You're under no obligation to disclose that it was a family business...unless they outright ask, in which case, you don't want to lie. I don't think many people would assume that working for the family business is a cake job. In fact, I think many family businnesses push people harder, as there's the sense of family obligation along with the usual employee responsibilities.
The only slight complication I could see is when it comes to references...if it specifies no family members, that could be complicated. In which case, I would simply ask the relevant HR person how they want you to approach it, since your boss was a family member.
Sounds like you should have an ass-kicking resume.
:tup
I've also been asked to name a time I've failed and been complimented for my maturity when I've been honest about it, because many people won't do this in interviews.
Definitely. I try to be as honest as possible without making myself look too terrible.
"Where do you see yourself in five years?"
How do I answer that without sounding cheesy and fake?
I think being honest without sounding like a complete pessimist works. I usually say I have no idea :lol
There's nothing wrong with that IMO. I think some people might see it as not being driven/committed enough or whatever, but some people might also see it as being flexible. Because I don't know what opportunities will present themselves to me in the next five years, and I'm willing to go with the flow.
I have a question for you all.
I'm 19 and I need a job to help my parents pay for college. At the moment I'm just hitting up fast food places and small markets looking for a small parttime job.
Unfortunately, I have no work experience.
When asked about work experience either on the application or in person, what is the best thing to say?
It seems that a person with no work experience is almost instantly disqualified.
I think it depends on the job, but maybe talking about relevant qualities you have would help... or use your experience in school? I think just being honest and saying you have no experience but you need to get it somewhere might work. As long as you can show you have the motivation/work ethic and ability/willingness to learn. Everyone has to start somewhere, and I think presenting yourself as a person with desirable qualities might help. For fast food and those kind of jobs, I don't think most places are expecting a lot of experience. Because usually the duties are pretty simple and can be taken care of with a little bit of training, like learning how to work a cash register which is pretty friggin' easy usually. They're not expecting people with a shitload of experience and it's not going to be an inconvenience for them to train you because every register is different and every company is different, so people are going to need to be trained regardless of the amount of experience they have. I've worked 4 retail-type jobs and each register, etc. was completely different so I had to be re-trained every time.
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"Where do you see yourself in five years?"
Stupid question. Anyone with interview training would know not to ask this question. I've always answered that questions sincerely and I've done fine with it and been offered most of the jobs I've interviewed for over the years. Here's basically what I say:
"That's really a tough question. My career to this point has gone in directions that I never could have predicted five years ago, so it's difficult to predict that now. What I hope is that I can start working for a successful company, work hard and do well at my job and learn as much as I can. Hopefully that will yield more opportunities in the future at that company."
Unless you really do have specific goals, it's best to just redirect the question to what you plan to do for the company now and be vague, but optimistic about the future.
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:tup
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5 years is easy for me, i want to be a management level engineer, and am senior level now, so it's no brainer.
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What I hated after interviews was when I didn't get the job, they sent me my resume and stuff back - with no explanation at all why I didn't get the job. Would have been nice to know for future interviews.
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Well, next time just ask!
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There won't be a next time. Having a lifetime job now. :hat
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Another thing I absolutely HATE about interviews:
I hate the question, "Where do you see yourself in five years?"
Bizarre, we had a discussion about that very question, and I was too of the opinion that it is a useless question. The only interesting answers are the stupid ones, e.g. one candidate we had who said "Yeah, I'm not sure. I actually wanted to go back to college, and I still might, but I figured I'd apply for a regular job in the meantime too".
rumborak
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Another thing I absolutely HATE about interviews:
I hate the question, "Where do you see yourself in five years?"
https://theoatmeal.com/comics/interview_questions
DON'T: Freely talk about how you don't really have any career ambition.
DON'T: Stand between your audience and your slides, when there's another place you could have stood just as easily.
DON'T: Talk about how you had to pull everything together for your interview seminar at the last moment.
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When they say "Tell me about yourself" what is the starting point? I have no idea what they want to know.
"Why should we hire you?" is another dumb one. It's almost impossible to answer that without sounding smug.
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When they say "Tell me about yourself" what is the starting point? I have no idea what they want to know.
"Why should we hire you?" is another dumb one. It's almost impossible to answer that without sounding smug.
I can't be certain about the "right" answers to those (I think they're bullshit questions, and thus don't ask them), but I think the answers are really the same: talk about what traits you have that would make you an asset to the company. Keep it broad for the first one...don't go into trivia about yourself, unless specifically propmted for hobbies, interests, etc. And remember it's OK to sound confident...risking sounding smug beats the hell out of 2/3 of the interviewees I see, where the lack of confidence is a red flag, and the single biggest thing that can make me reccomend against hiring the person.
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Thanks for that. I got an interview tomorrow and I've gotten a slew of these types of questions in the past. I'm never quite sure if I answered them well enough.
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ATTENTION MILLLAAAAHHH!
In an interview I was asked 'Why do you think we should hire you?" To which I gave a pretty standard answer, followed by "...and I'm awesome."
Was this a wise thing to say?
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^ :lol :lol Man I wish someone took a video of that moment.
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I didn't end up getting get the job :lol
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Guys, I need a quick response to this. I've been short listed for a job I really want and I have no idea how to answer this question:
"Also how would you add value to this client’s business based on the information enclosed should you be successful?"
Some serious help would be great!
Edit: Never mind, I got help off someone else.
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There won't be a next time. Having a lifetime job now. :hat
A lifetime job? Did you join the mafia?
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I have an interview in 12 hours for an internship at ING financial. I haven't had a job interview in 7 years... I'm freaking out.
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Just re-read my first post, and relax :) And read this: https://www.career.vt.edu/Interviewing/Behavioral.html
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I'm waiting to hear back from Citi, having interviewed with them last week. A friend of mine who works there now (and brought my resume to the attention of HR) said I was basically a shoo-in as long as I could talk about the experiences on my resume and didn't fuck up the interview (which I don't think I did). The interview was on the 5th, and I was told I'd hear from them "early next week". HR emailed me on the 12th asking what my salary was this year and the previous two, and I haven't heard since (and of course my friend is now on vacation). How long should I wait to follow up with them?
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Another thing I absolutely HATE about interviews:
I hate the question, "Where do you see yourself in five years?"
https://theoatmeal.com/comics/interview_questions
DON'T: Freely talk about how you don't really have any career ambition.
DON'T: Stand between your audience and your slides, when there's another place you could have stood just as easily.
DON'T: Talk about how you had to pull everything together for your interview seminar at the last moment.
Pretty sure I woke everyone in my house up while laughing at the gargling your company's balls one...
Also: where do you see yourself in 5 years?
I'll have taken your job and fucked your wife.
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I'm waiting to hear back from Citi, having interviewed with them last week. A friend of mine who works there now (and brought my resume to the attention of HR) said I was basically a shoo-in as long as I could talk about the experiences on my resume and didn't fuck up the interview (which I don't think I did). The interview was on the 5th, and I was told I'd hear from them "early next week". HR emailed me on the 12th asking what my salary was this year and the previous two, and I haven't heard since (and of course my friend is now on vacation). How long should I wait to follow up with them?
I've never been good with knowing follow-up timing. You did hear from them on schedule, just not with an answer. Maybe Monday?
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If they are asking you for information, follow up right away. If you are just waiting for them to get back to you, then it's fine to wait a little bit longer.
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Yeah, I was figuring either Monday or Tuesday I'd follow up (and I did reply with the requested information promptly earlier this week).
Another question. I've got a vacation planned for a family reunion in July. It's not a dealbreaker for me if I can't attend, but I'd very much like to. I know that the timing shouldn't be an issue with the monthly work flow with the team I'd be joining. If they were to offer me the job, is this something I should mention when an offer is made, or should I wait until I start the position and bring it up with my supervisor after a couple weeks?
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For my public speaking class, we had a section on job interviews and the teacher said that we should always wear a blue dress shirt with a blue tie to interviews.
Has anyone else ever heard of this and does it really matter that much what color shirt you wear? Obviously I would never wear a power color like red, but I would think blue, green or white would be ok.
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That is oddly specific. If anything I'd say a white shirt and a conservative tie with your suit would be fine by anyone's standards.
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For some reason, blue is the most common color people wear at the office I work in. Not sure if that's true other places, but I'd imagining interviewing in a blue shirt here would defnitely send a very subconscious "familar" signal to everyone.
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I just demolished that interview. I'd be shocked if I wasn't selected. I had 5 people interviewing me, and as the main guy was walking out he said "you did a fantastic job in there".
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Another thing I absolutely HATE about interviews:
I hate the question, "Where do you see yourself in five years?"
Bizarre, we had a discussion about that very question, and I was too of the opinion that it is a useless question. The only interesting answers are the stupid ones, e.g. one candidate we had who said "Yeah, I'm not sure. I actually wanted to go back to college, and I still might, but I figured I'd apply for a regular job in the meantime too".
I have to admit, I'm the sort of person who would truthfully answer "doing exactly the same thing but better at it" to that.
rumborak
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Do - smile. Present yourself as a positive, jovial person.
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So, interestingly I am having a job interview on Tuesday, for Amazon. They're getting into speech recognition, so they're trying to scoop up people.
I'm really torn about it. On one hand it's an interesting opportunity, but on the other I'm rather tired of the whole speech recognition thing and if I actually switched I'd rather go to something else, not yet another speech rec company.
Also, because I have worked for more than 5 years at my current company, I get 4 weeks of vacation. Given my love for travel, that is pretty nice. At Amazon I would get a measly 2 weeks, 3 after working for one year there. And you can bet it would be long hours too because I would first have to establish myself.
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So, interestingly I am having a job interview on Tuesday, for Amazon.
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/amazon.png)
Round 14: Estimated outflow volume in cubic meters per second [[Amazon: A 220,000 m^2 block of water populated with dolphins and fish, with some people who have driven up in a car to observe it. Amazon.com: 0.9 m^2 in packages]]
Amazon.com took a surprise early lead with 'Time required to transport a package from Iquitos, Peru to Manaus, Brazil' but then lost it at 'Minutes to skeletonize a cow'.
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My friend is a software engineer at Amazon in their supply chain development dept, from what I've heard it's a great place to work.
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Over the years, I've interviewed about 50 people for the 7 positions I have in my group. I run an I.T. department for those who don't know.
Anyway, probably the dumbest thing I ever had a candidate for the position of "Network Administrator" say to me was, "Well, if you take me inside and let me have a look at your servers and your network, I will show you everything you've done wrong." :facepalm: :lol
The only other really crazy one was a guy who tried to turn the tables on me. As we were going through the questions, instead of answering the latest question I had asked, he said, "Let me ask YOU a question: Why does this company deserve to have ME working here?" :\
Needless to say, neither of those candidates had a second interview. :lol
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Geez, I mean confidence is a great thing, but those are just downright arrogant to the point of delusion.
I don't even know what answer someone would expect from that question. How on earth would that help you get a job?! :lol
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Those are both pretty impressive displays of clueless arrogance. Perhaps they don't realize there's a difference between clever/gutsy and just being an asshole?
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Woohoooo! Just got a call from ING. I scored myself a 12 week internship this summer. I quote, "we aren't exactly sure where you'll be working just yet. The managers are fighting over who is going to get you" :metal
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Woohoooo! Just got a call from ING. I scored myself a 12 week internship this summer. I quote, "we aren't exactly sure where you'll be working just yet. The managers are fighting over who is going to get you" :metal
Awesome dude, made a name for yourself all ready :)
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Woohoooo! Just got a call from ING. I scored myself a 12 week internship this summer. I quote, "we aren't exactly sure where you'll be working just yet. The managers are fighting over who is going to get you" :metal
DO - politely thank them for the opportunity.
DO NOT - request an office with a balcony.
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:lol
In general something on the first floor would probably be best.
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Woohoooo! Just got a call from ING. I scored myself a 12 week internship this summer. I quote, "we aren't exactly sure where you'll be working just yet. The managers are fighting over who is going to get you" :metal
DO - politely thank them for the opportunity.
DO NOT - request an office with a balcony.
How should I go about a thank you letter?
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Short answer: Immediately.
Longer answer: In the usual way. Even if it seems to be in the bag now, thank them for the opportunity to meet with them (don't call it an "interview") to discuss how you might best fit with their company, you look forward to hearing from them soon, blah blah blah.
Those are both pretty impressive displays of clueless arrogance. Perhaps they don't realize there's a difference between clever/gutsy and just being an asshole?
I'm sure that's it. Confidence is good, arrogance is bad, but one is really just another form of the other, and some people don't know where the line is.
Obviously you want to present yourself as confident. You're not going to waste your or anyone else's time second-guessing yourself, because you know your shit. But presuming to know more than your employer, or that you can show them everything they're doing wrong is arrogance. First of all, you don't know that they're doing anything wrong. It's entirely possible that you know your shit but don't know more than they do. Second, nobody likes a smartass. You may be right and they might be wrong, but you haven't yet earned the right to tell them that.
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On your first day show up with a gift basket that has a half full bottle of Vodka and a card that reads, "thnk yu fo this opppppertunty, yuu wont regrets itt!"
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Is that a Do or a Don't?
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Is that a Do or a Don't?
It's a D'oh!
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Half the fun is the mystery until you find out...
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Lol, because of the impending snow storm in Boston they cancelled the interview event for tomorrow. Now they want to reschedule for April. I think I will use the opportunity to bow out gracefully. It's not the right career move for me, and it would be a total ass move to desert my group when my boss is already leaving.
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Lol, because of the impending snow storm in Boston they cancelled the interview event for tomorrow. Now they want to reschedule for April. I think I will use the opportunity to bow out gracefully. It's not the right career move for me, and it would be a total ass move to desert my group when my boss is already leaving.
I wouldn't let that stop you. Everyone basically understands it's every man for himself in the work world. But if it's not the right move, no point in rescheduling.
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Everyone basically understands it's every man for himself in the work world.
Yes and No. I'm the first to agree with you that your own career and life is the highest priority in all of this, but there's a danger that screwing over your previous group comes back to haunt you. My industry is very small, and people essentially shuffle between a small set of employers. If you got the reputation as "the guy who screwed over his previous team", that's not good.
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Everyone basically understands it's every man for himself in the work world.
Yes and No. I'm the first to agree with you that your own career and life is the highest priority in all of this, but there's a danger that screwing over your previous group comes back to haunt you. My industry is very small, and people essentially shuffle between a small set of employers. If you got the reputation as "the guy who screwed over his previous team", that's not good.
The thing is, everyone of those people would have no problem doing the same thing if a better opportunity came up.
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I'm with rumby. Don't fuck over people who could come around to help you later. Fuck them over only when they no longer serve a purpose.
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Just to make sure we're talking the same thing here: I am talking about leaving at the same time your boss leaves. That is an ass move because the remaining team is totally fucked. In the places I have worked the coworkers actually liked each other.
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I agree that you shouldn't leave without good reason. A big promotion and a 40% raise... no one's going to fault you for that. Moving just for the hell of it... yeah, they might get a little ticked. I think the vast majority of people aren't going to hold a grudge if you move on to bigger and better things.
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I dunno rumby. Your work let you take off for a world tour. Sounds like a pretty suhweet place.
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That's what I'm saying actually :lol
I only agreed to this Amazon thing because my boss (the one going to Amazon) was all raving about it and the stuff they will do there. He told the people at Amazon my name, and they contacted me. So I figured "what the hell, might as well just show up at their interview and see what they are all about". But then they sent me the benefits they have (with the little vacation), and now the rescheduling because of the snow storm ... and I totally lost interest. I'm not gonna take another day off just to show up to an interview I don't really care about. So, I called it off earlier tonight. No point in wasting either their or my time. And again, it would be such an ass move to leave alongside with my boss. Several projects would be totally fucked.
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I say do the interview anyways. Since your boss hooked you up with the interview, I'd do it simply out of courtesy. You can always decline. Who knows, they may surprise you.
I applied to a job where they rescheduled my phone interview twice, and I was about to throw in the towel. When I actually went in for the in-person interview, they really sold me.
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Sorry, edited my previous post. I would have to take yet another day off for the new interview. I don't feel like wasting yet another vacation day on something I don't care about. There is nothing wrong with my current job. I make decent money with killer benefits, working at Amazon would mean lousy hours, little vacation and having to establish my worth.
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It always comes down to vacation. :lol
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To me it does. My idea of work-life balance is very different from Americans, and I tend to keep it that way :lol
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I wonder how much is due to the current system in America vs. the desires of the workforce. I'd love to be able to take a decent sized vacation every year, but employer expectations don't really mesh well with that idea.
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I'm waiting to hear back from Citi, having interviewed with them last week. A friend of mine who works there now (and brought my resume to the attention of HR) said I was basically a shoo-in as long as I could talk about the experiences on my resume and didn't fuck up the interview (which I don't think I did). The interview was on the 5th, and I was told I'd hear from them "early next week". HR emailed me on the 12th asking what my salary was this year and the previous two, and I haven't heard since (and of course my friend is now on vacation). How long should I wait to follow up with them?
I've never been good with knowing follow-up timing. You did hear from them on schedule, just not with an answer. Maybe Monday?
So I'm at a week now since they asked for my recent salary history. I was thinking I'd send the HR contact I've been dealing with a short email saying that I just wanted to follow up and see if they needed any further information from me during this process. Thoughts?
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To me it does. My idea of work-life balance is very different from Americans, and I tend to keep it that way :lol
Everyone's should be, I think. I was pining recently on the fact that I have 5 waking hours per day when I'm not working.
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I'm waiting to hear back from Citi, having interviewed with them last week. A friend of mine who works there now (and brought my resume to the attention of HR) said I was basically a shoo-in as long as I could talk about the experiences on my resume and didn't fuck up the interview (which I don't think I did). The interview was on the 5th, and I was told I'd hear from them "early next week". HR emailed me on the 12th asking what my salary was this year and the previous two, and I haven't heard since (and of course my friend is now on vacation). How long should I wait to follow up with them?
I've never been good with knowing follow-up timing. You did hear from them on schedule, just not with an answer. Maybe Monday?
So I'm at a week now since they asked for my recent salary history. I was thinking I'd send the HR contact I've been dealing with a short email saying that I just wanted to follow up and see if they needed any further information from me during this process. Thoughts?
Seems reasonable. Do it!
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Completely reasonable. Be sure to reiterate that you're very interested in the position and maybe drop a reason or two why you think you'd be a good fit.
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What are good job sites these days? Back in the day I used monster.com. Anything else you guys can recommend?
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I always got a decent yield from Indeed when I was looking, as well as LinkedIn.
I don't trust Monster or Career Builder anymore. As soon as I posted my resume on those sites, my phone started getting spammed with Insurance Companies looking for new salesmen.
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Most of the recruiters that call me have found me via LinkedIn. There are a ton of recruiters on there, and most of them are eager to make connections.
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So I'm at a week now since they asked for my recent salary history. I was thinking I'd send the HR contact I've been dealing with a short email saying that I just wanted to follow up and see if they needed any further information from me during this process. Thoughts?
I emailed my HR contact on Wednesday morning, and about a day later he got back to me to let me know that Citi is preparing to make me an offer, and they're just waiting for everything to be approved. Great news obviously, but that's going to lead to something I've never experienced before, a salary negotiation.
Now, when I was filling out my application there was a spot for "requested salary", and I filled in $55,000, not wanting to put too high a number and freak them out. I was also quite honest in providing my salary history (suffice to say, making a good deal less than 55K). After I submitted my application I got the chance to speak with a contact at another company, and was informed that at that firm, a person starting in the same position would probably make $65-75K a year. Now, I would never go back on my word and ask for more than I put down, but should I be a bit more firm in my number (or coming close to it) given this information?
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Start high. It's the starting point for the negotiations, not the final amount. If you shoot too low, they'll just say "Okay" and that's what you get.
I made the same mistake when I took the job I'm in now. I was at the end of my temp contract and managed to land an offer for a salaried position from another company. But I would've had to relocate, and I hate moving. The place I was temping at offerred me a salaried position as well, which was great. They asked how much I wanted, and I added 10% to the other company's offer. He said "Done". Didn't even hesitate. I knew that I'd aimed too low. I should've aimed even higher, and if we haggled and ended up somewhere in the middle, then fine, I would've had that much more to start.
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I once interviewed for a security position at a local category C male prison, 400 applicants, 30 people were interviewed and of those, 1 got the job and 14 made a backup list for future jobs. I only made it to the interview stage, which was a panel of three people. I thought it went really well, I knew the answers to 90% of the questions (i.e. I'd researched the occupancy of the prison, its history, who the governor was, what category 'C' meant as opposed to a B or A category jail, which other prisons were in the area etc. etc. but I didn't get a couple of answers right to questions like it's midnight, you're doing a perimeter walk and come across a ladder up against the wall. Your radio is broken. What do you do?'
Anyway I thought it went well and was hoping to make at least the short list, but I didn't get through, so I wrote to the main interviewer for some feedback. He told me I interviewed really well but if they had any advice it was that I came across a little too over-confident. I was pretty confused by this as I did feel confident, but also thought confidence might be something they were looking for as a female working in a male prison (I've done a lot of prison voluntary work and you cannot show weakness, ever).
I bear it in mind for future interviews anyway but most people I spoke to said don't worry too much about it, be yourself and you can't go wrong. Some interviewers will specifically want confident people, and be put off if you don't seem strong enough. So don't try and second-guess how you come across. I try and make sure I don't seem cocky or arrogant anymore, though. I could also have failed because of my medical disclosure which without going into details makes me look unreliable, but they can't obviously say my health is one of the reasons I got rejected.
Not getting that job was a great thing to happen anyway as it meant I was free to take up other voluntary positions in the jail which in turn led to me getting enough experience to get onto my social work Masters course, which is going to make me a qualified social worker and give me way better job prospects than grunt-level work in a prison. But I wrote back and thanked him for taking the time to give me feedback.
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Start high. It's the starting point for the negotiations, not the final amount. If you shoot too low, they'll just say "Okay" and that's what you get.
I made the same mistake when I took the job I'm in now. I was at the end of my temp contract and managed to land an offer for a salaried position from another company. But I would've had to relocate, and I hate moving. The place I was temping at offerred me a salaried position as well, which was great. They asked how much I wanted, and I added 10% to the other company's offer. He said "Done". Didn't even hesitate. I knew that I'd aimed too low. I should've aimed even higher, and if we haggled and ended up somewhere in the middle, then fine, I would've had that much more to start.
I guess I worry that by putting down 55K before I found out that the starting range at a comparable company is 65-75K I've cost myself the ability to start high. Should I just then be a bit more firm with the number I put down than I might otherwise?
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Well, if you've already said 55K and it's that much lower than what you'd get at other companies, then I'd say hold firm to it. They might try to negotiate, but if they really want you, they won't push too hard if you hold firm. You already know that you can do better, and I'm sure they do, too. So it comes down to how badly you want the job, and how badly they want you. If they try to get you to go lower, and won't pay you what you both already know is less than what you could get elsewhere, they don't really want you. That's where it gets tough. A bird in the hand.
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Got the call and the offer from them today. Their offer was 50K a year, and the position is overtime eligible. Given that I know the job will in all likelihood involve me working overtime every month I decided to take it. The 12 vacation days per year to start didn't hurt either. I start April 8th :hat
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Congrats! I might have asked to think about it for a day, and coming back with a "I'd love to accept your offer, but [insert request(s) and argument(s) to back it up], do you think we can work something out?"
Still, sounds like a sweet gig!
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Congrats on landing a gig. It still seems like they lowballed you, but these days, you can't always be choosy.
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Yeah, I mean I thought about doing something like that, but what it comes down to is that I got out of grad school two and a half years ago and I've been working in a restaurant the whole time since, so getting into the field that I actually studied for was more important than anything else. Although, if they had offered less than 50 I probably would have tried to negotiate a little bit.
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So I had a job interview this morning and it was quite different than anything I had experienced before. Instead of the formal, traditional, sit down interview, instead this was a online recorded interview, where I recorded myself via web-cam.
Really wild experience, since it felt more like auditioning for a play rather than a job interview, since I had lines to try and get out without messing up. It took over an hour to record 6 minutes of footage and The funniest part was trying to try and improvise a tri-pod for my laptop:
(https://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x459/phoenix87x/92CA535B-0DC4-4600-B95B-611E14E575AB-3971-0000043EB5B3A607_zps4e919065.jpg)
Anyone else ever have to do an interview like this?
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No, but we have those same wooden folding tables. Did yours come in a set of four, with a stand to hold them?
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No, but we have those same wooden folding tables. Did yours come in a set of four, with a stand to hold them?
They totally did. :D
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:tup
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Do you guys think it's improper form to email my HR contact this week to ask if there's a probation period before I can use vacation days, as I have a vacation in July that was booked and paid for before this job opportunity came up?
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Do you guys think it's improper form to email my HR contact this week to ask if there's a probation period before I can use vacation days, as I have a vacation in July that was booked and paid for before this job opportunity came up?
Absolutely not. Just word it professionally.
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When do you start? If it's soon, I might wait until the first day, when you'll be going over policies and whatnot. If it's further out, then ask.
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When do you start? If it's soon, I might wait until the first day, when you'll be going over policies and whatnot. If it's further out, then ask.
I start next Monday, the 8th.
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When do you start? If it's soon, I might wait until the first day, when you'll be going over policies and whatnot. If it's further out, then ask.
I start next Monday, the 8th.
I would say wait until then, unless there's a compelling reason to ask in the next four days.
Also, might be preferable to put out a feeler with your boss, rather than HR. There may be "informal" ways to bend the rules that your boss can use, but about which HR would invariably say "no" because it's not official policy. Depends on what your read on the boss is, though.
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Unfortunately I didn't meet my actual boss when I interviewed. The main portion of my interview was with a couple of my soon to be colleagues, and I spoke to the group manager on the phone for about 10-15 minutes afterwards. I just worry that already asking about taking time off right when I get there will create a poor first impression.
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Unfortunately I didn't meet my actual boss when I interviewed. The main portion of my interview was with a couple of my soon to be colleagues, and I spoke to the group manager on the phone for about 10-15 minutes afterwards. I just worry that already asking about taking time off right when I get there will create a poor first impression.
You can frame it like this:
"I need to ask a question for clarity regarding vacation policy. I've had travel plans scheduled for a week in July since before I interviewed for this position. If the policy doesn't allow taking time off so soon after my start date, I'd like to let my travel companions know so they can adjust their plans accordingly."
This paints you as responsible, considerate, respectful of all involved and have your priorities in the right place. This is the opposite of coming off as lazy/entitled, and may even contribute to you getting the flexibility you'd like.
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Thanks for the advice. I think I'll hold off on bringing this up until my first week.
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Unfortunately I didn't meet my actual boss when I interviewed. The main portion of my interview was with a couple of my soon to be colleagues, and I spoke to the group manager on the phone for about 10-15 minutes afterwards. I just worry that already asking about taking time off right when I get there will create a poor first impression.
You can frame it like this:
"I need to ask a question for clarity regarding vacation policy. I've had travel plans scheduled for a week in July since before I interviewed for this position. If the policy doesn't allow taking time off so soon after my start date, I'd like to let my travel companions know so they can adjust their plans accordingly."
This paints you as responsible, considerate, respectful of all involved and have your priorities in the right place. This is the opposite of coming off as lazy/entitled, and may even contribute to you getting the flexibility you'd like.
+1
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Ideally it would have been raised during the negotiation process.
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One other question. I'm 95% sure the dress code is business casual (and will confirm this with HR later this week). Should I still wear a full suit on my first day, or is that a bit much?
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Do you know anybody in the company you can ask? Every company is different about it. At my job you'd get laughed at, that's for sure :lol
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One other question. I'm 95% sure the dress code is business casual (and will confirm this with HR later this week). Should I still wear a full suit on my first day, or is that a bit much?
You'll be fine with business casual as long as your clothes are clean, neat, and fit well.
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Ask about where the company sees itself in a few years, or ask about the history or a typical day in the life of an employee. Something to show your interest in the company and the position.
Would you consider asking about advancement potential a good question?
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Ask about where the company sees itself in a few years, or ask about the history or a typical day in the life of an employee. Something to show your interest in the company and the position.
Would you consider asking about advancement potential a good question?
I've usually asked those types of question because I legitimately care about the answer.
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"Advancement" is maybe not the best word to use, to me it sounds you're already looking to be in the next higher position than the one you're applying for. "Growth" is a better one IMHO.
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"Advancement" is maybe not the best word to use, to me it sounds you're already looking to be in the next higher position than the one you're applying for. "Growth" is a better one IMHO.
I'd agree..."advancement" is a tricky word, and could be construed as being more intersted in getting your foot in the door than with the position itself. We've got one of those now, and she is rapidly closing the door on her future potential precisely because she treated the position she hired onto as a "foot in the door".
It'a slmost a shame...our recent interviewees have all been functional human beings, so I don't have any more stories. However, in leiu of that, here is a children's treasury of awkward interview stories (in the comments):
https://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2013/04/12/what_is_the_most_bizarre_job_interview_you_have_ever_been_party_to.html
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Yuck, my workplace is right now in the process of imploding. My boss left a while ago for Amazon, and soon a close coworker will do so too. And I know of two other guys who were at Amazon interviewing (I could have joined them too, but it struck as a all-work-no-life kinda job), and knowing what kind of money they throw at people ($155k for a bachelor in EE with a few years of experience? WTF?) I am assuming those two guys will go there too.
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Reviving an old thread. Went to an interview today, I hope I get the job. It's a company that makes professional audio software, which I'm quite excited about. It would mean losing some quirks that I have at my current job, but it would also be a nice change of work location (actually, much better) and a different field (no more speech recognition).
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Very nice! I use and teach audio software for a living more or less. Best of luck to you.
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I've got to say, I am blown away how many people email me about a job using their girlfriend's email. You know they are looking on their phones so set up a damn email account with your name. Crazy. It puts me off right away.
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Wow, that seems like it would be a very basic first step. If you don't have one already, set up an email account -- with a name that is not stupid, vulgar, or otherwise juvenile -- and use that to send resumes and cover letters.
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Wait, what? They apply for a job with their gf's email address?
Would immediately end up in the junk pile for me.
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I've got to say, I am blown away how many people email me about a job using their girlfriend's email. You know they are looking on their phones so set up a damn email account with your name. Crazy. It puts me off right away.
Wow, Ok let me start by saying, I just started a new job 2 months ago and the company I work for has a really intensive interview process and I ended up having to interview someone for our LA position. I got an e-mail about 20 minutes before the interview and it was from an email address I didn't know, but it said the guy was going to be late for the interview. Eventually he told me it was his girlfriend who sent the e-mail while I was doing the interview. I was wondering how a ~30 year old American man didn't have his own way to email and he was applying for an IT position.
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Just read through this whole thread. Really good information, here, and it helps me learn as well since I'm taking a Business Communications class and we're on the topic of job interviewing and the information, itt, pretty much is what the text stated on the Do's and Don'ts.
I bookmarked this thread and hope that it helps me in the future when I got to go through with this process.
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Wait, what? They apply for a job with their gf's email address?
Would immediately end up in the junk pile for me.
Exactly. You would not believe how many 20 something kids use their Girlfriends email. Common sense in our youth has gone right out the window.
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Wait, what? They apply for a job with their gf's email address?
Would immediately end up in the junk pile for me.
Exactly. You would not believe how many 20 something kids use their Girlfriends email. Common sense in our youth has gone right out the window.
Just as bad.... using an email like SickSk8erH2O@Gmail.com
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Why would someone not use their own email? I have at least 3 to choose from.
And I don't have a girlfriend anyway. :lol :sadpanda:
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Seriously, who doesn't have an email? How is that even possible?
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Seriously, how does Blob not have a girlfriend? How is that even possible?
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Also a valid point.
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Seriously, how does Blob not have a girlfriend? How is that even possible?
Hm, maybe I should start interviewing for the position. But I swear, if they use their boyfriend's emails, they're not getting the job.
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:lol
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Seriously, how does Blob not have a girlfriend? How is that even possible?
Hm, maybe I should start interviewing for the position. But I swear, if they use their boyfriend's emails, they're not getting the job.
:lol Maybe a dude wants somethin, somethin.
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Good lord...I can't believe I started this thread four and a half years ago...
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DON’T: Have the email address be with AOL.
But... but... that's my impersonal email! I have it exactly for these sorts of things.
:biggrin:
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Seriously, how does Blob not have a girlfriend? How is that even possible?
Hm, maybe I should start interviewing for the position. But I swear, if they use their boyfriend's emails, they're not getting the job.
:lol Maybe a dude wants somethin, somethin.
WE ARE NOT A MATCH!
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:lol
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Back to the original topic, not sure I mentioned this here, but I interviewed two weeks ago with a music software company. Very weird, seriously. On the one hand, the guys I interviewed with were pretty nice, and what the company does would have been really cool to work on (mastering, mixing software etc). But, a couple of things were really off:
1. I had the impression they had forgotten about me after the phone screen. Two weeks later I sent an email to their HR asking what the status is, and then suddenly they invited me over
2. The third guy I interviewed with was suuuuper-absent minded. To be honest, I did not have the impression he was super-interested in interviewing me. And the best part is, on that day they had free pizza at lunch. So, I'm talking to this guy for 10 minutes, and then (after they announced the pizza arrived) he tells me "oh, I really want to have some of that pizza btw. Why don't you wait in this office until I'm done.". So, I'm sitting 15 minutes alone in that office, playing with my phone.
3. At the end of the interview, the HR doesn't even bother with a wrap-up (which in my experience is total standard). I actually asked the receptionist whether I should talk to the HR person, she says "let me check". The HR office was maybe 6 feet away from where I was, and the HR person did not even bother coming out. The receptionist just returned, saying "No, you're finished".
4. This was 2 weeks ago, and I have heard absolutely zilch from them. I actually sent an email to the same HR person as before on Monday, inquiring on the status of things. Have yet to hear back, total radio silence.
I am certainly mentally over them at this point. The other issue is that I looked at glassdoor.com about their salaries, and assuming they are accurate, they are abysmal. I'm fine with taking a step down since I would be switching industries, but it would approach almost half the money of what I earn right now.
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Sounds like the job might be cool, but the people you'd be working for/with are morons. Also the salary issue.
Years ago, when I left teaching to make real money as a programmer, I'd interviewed with a number of school districts and got to see a nice cross-section of the state of classroom technology circa 1995. One of the nicer schools that interviewed me had some pretty cool tech, including a lecture hall, auditorium style, with 200 PC workstations built into individual desks. Very nice, especially considering the times. I was told that it was a new position, teaching computer science full time (not all schools were there yet) and there were only three candidates. I was pretty pscyhed. They said they'd call me.
After a week, I couldn't wait any longer, and called the office to see if they'd made a decision, or were doing second interviews or what, but the person I needed to speak to wasn't in. But they'd call me. Another few days later, I called again, and by this time the district offices were closed for the summer and I got a recording. That was the only number I had. They never did call me back, and I never bothered following up. I ended up taking an entry level programming position for $5K more than the best teaching offer I had on the table.
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Back to the original topic, not sure I mentioned this here, but I interviewed two weeks ago with a music software company. Very weird, seriously. On the one hand, the guys I interviewed with were pretty nice, and what the company does would have been really cool to work on (mastering, mixing software etc). But, a couple of things were really off:
1. I had the impression they had forgotten about me after the phone screen. Two weeks later I sent an email to their HR asking what the status is, and then suddenly they invited me over
2. The third guy I interviewed with was suuuuper-absent minded. To be honest, I did not have the impression he was super-interested in interviewing me. And the best part is, on that day they had free pizza at lunch. So, I'm talking to this guy for 10 minutes, and then (after they announced the pizza arrived) he tells me "oh, I really want to have some of that pizza btw. Why don't you wait in this office until I'm done.". So, I'm sitting 15 minutes alone in that office, playing with my phone.
3. At the end of the interview, the HR doesn't even bother with a wrap-up (which in my experience is total standard). I actually asked the receptionist whether I should talk to the HR person, she says "let me check". The HR office was maybe 6 feet away from where I was, and the HR person did not even bother coming out. The receptionist just returned, saying "No, you're finished".
4. This was 2 weeks ago, and I have heard absolutely zilch from them. I actually sent an email to the same HR person as before on Monday, inquiring on the status of things. Have yet to hear back, total radio silence.
I am certainly mentally over them at this point. The other issue is that I looked at glassdoor.com about their salaries, and assuming they are accurate, they are abysmal. I'm fine with taking a step down since I would be switching industries, but it would approach almost half the money of what I earn right now.
Rumby..as a former labor attorney, I spent eons working with HR people. A few things to point out...most people have NO idea how to interview people. They simply are not trained on what questions to ask; and if they are, most of them are clueless as to why they would ask them to begin with. A lot of HR people are also clueless. Keep in mind too, that an interview is also a way for the company to sell themselves to you, the candidate. If you got the feeling during the interview that they were going through the motions, and they treated you with less than the enthusiasm you deserve, then you are totally right. The fact that the guy didn't at least offer to have you join him for pizza speaks volumes. What a great opportunity that could have been for you to see people in the company interact in a setting with their guard down, so that you could really see the culture there for what it was. I would have been pissed and left. I would have gone to the receptionist and told her to tell the guys boss that, "Obviously lunch was more important than filling the position with an excellent candidate", then walked out. Extremely rude. But that should tell you something about the people you'd be working with.
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Good point. As I read through thats exactly what I thought. If the interviewer wanted some pizza, fine but he/she should have offered you some or an opportunity to join them. The fact that they dodnt speaks volumes.
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Sorry, I should have mentioned that he *did* in fact offer me pizza. However, I was not hungry at all so I told him that, and then he disappeared for the 15 minutes. When I said I wasn't hungry I assumed he would get some pizza and immediately come back, or just have me sit at the table where he would eat the pizza, so we could continue talking.
But, they eventually replied to my email inquiry, like 4 days later. They said they would make a decision some time next week.
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That was my point. Not that he offer you some pizza, but he offer you to "join" him for pizza. Doesn't mean you had to eat any, but you could have continued your conversation. Guy sounds like an idiot. I mean who just leaves someone in a room they're interviewing to go it? Ridiculous.
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DO
Try your best. Dress Smart. Be Polite. Make Eye Contact. Answer all questions in full and in depth. Get on well with complete strangers. Shake their hand.
DON'T
Get the job.
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Since we've taken a bit of a detour into the utter uselessness of HR...
I figure some of you folks are (or will someday be) managers/directors/supervisors, and as such will have to deal with challenging people/situations. Based on my experience, my advice is: Document everything. In the eyes of HR, if it isn't documented, it didn't happen. If you're having trouble with someone and finally hit your breaking point and go to HR, they will basically tell you "tough shit" if you don't have records of relevant conversations and incidents...you're effectively starting from zero when you go talk to them. I learned my lesson early, and have a few notes from every 1:1 conversation I have with my direct reports, as you never really know what will be significant later; that conversation that you think is just a little nudge in the right direction may actually be the the first step towards being able to take action...but only if you've got records.
The fundamental state of HR is one of stasis. They don't want to do something or get their hands dirty unless it is utterly unavoidable. They have a very high coefficient of friction, so to speak. So not only do you have to pave the road for them, you also need to lead them to the right outcome, almost leaving them no choice.
Not that I'm frustrated with them or anything...
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I think the fundamental state of HR is to implement embarrassing social events such as trust falls.
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Not to derail this thread any further, but a quick comment or two about documenting conversations etc. Most supervisors fail to document events that occur. Instead, they go to HR and say "Biff is a dumbfuck. He needs to be taken out back, castrated, and shot in the face with a bazooka. We hate Biff. He is a worthless, mouth breathing piece of shit and he needs to be fired. Yesterday!" HR will then ask, "Do you have anything in writing?" "Well, no...but HE KNOWS we've talked about this stuff in the past." HR then asks, "What did his last performance review look like?" And the manager says, "Well....it was pretty good actually. We didn't want to piss him off and have him quit. But can you fire him please?" So, the company fires Biff, and he hires an attorney. He is now the plaintiff in a wrongful discharge, or discrimination suit against your company. I say discrimination because Biff's attorney will try and use any protected class available to him to say that is why you fired poor, old, black, disabled, Muslim,(female--okay with a name like Biff maybe not) maybe gay, maybe Democrat (depending on where you are) Biff. So your companies HR person takes the complaint to the CEO, or maybe their in-house counsel (who typically only knows a little contract law, nothing else, and is probably the most useless member of your executive team), and says, "We fired Biff, but we don't have any documentation supporting it." And the CEO or in-house attorney panics (rightly so) and calls someone like what I used to be. I (in this instance I'm still practicing law) look at the weak-assed facts we have supporting our case, chiefly your word against Biffs that you warned him repeatedly despite having no evidence in writing to support that those conversations ever took place and just as important Biffs signature stating that you indeed had the conversation; coupled with the fact that Biff has an excellent review that YOU signed saying he was a "Gold-Star Employee". And even though, we probably live in an at-will state, and can essentially fire Biff for ANY REASON (really, any reason), we didn't follow our companies progressive discipline policy, nor did we document anything, so instead of trying to now prove somehow that despite Biffs recent GLOWING performance review that he should have been fired (or taken out back and shot in the face with a bazooka); and then having to spend a ton of money to pay me to muster a defense...it would probably be in your best interest to settle with Biff. So, after your company writes a big fat check to me for advising them, they write an even bigger check to Biff and his slimy ass-hat attorney (who knows damn good and well that Biff is a tool, and deserved to be fired), your CEO demands to know why the HR team let this shit happen, and the HR person says, "I told (insert your name here) they needed documentation, but they wouldn't listen to me." Then your CEO loses confidence in your abilities as a supervisor, and overlooks you for a promotion, or decides not to give you a good review or raise, or worse-- fires you. So there you are, thinking you shouldn't have used all that PTO to go to Europe this year on vacation because you really need the money for any of your unused PTO that they just cashed you out with right now. And since this has never happened to you, you've never needed an employment attorney, and the only one you know is me, because I represented your company in the Biff lawsuit, so you call me and tell me that you've been fired and ask if you can hire me, and I tell you that no, since I represent your NOW former employer, it would be a conflict; but I might give you the names of some of my friends who will gladly take your money. Only NOW the company has learned it's lesson, and they documented your termination the way they were supposed to, and you wind up paying an attorney and you still get dick. Sooooo..yeah. HR is a bitch. :biggrin:
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:clap:
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It's my emphasis in my business studies :'( :'( :'( :'(
I don't intend to be the dopey HR guy though.
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HR guys become "dopey HR guys" because people walk all over them and don't follow their advice. So don't let them make you a "dopey HR guy". :biggrin:
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Yeah, that's all dead-on, TV.
You really need to line up your shot to even start the progressive discipline process...you're essentially hitting the reset button being able to take action each day that you don't document.
I had to fire someone this past fall...and he'd have been out the door a couple of months sooner if I'd had more consistent documentation. Of course, he did perform the coup de grace on himself...he did most of what was needed to make it look like emails sent from his phone were sent from his work computer...but not quite everything. Oops.
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It's amazing sometimes how much energy and effort marginal employees put into remaining marginal. :lol
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Interviewed someone the other day, someone wanting to be a server. It was the first interview I'd ever conducted on my own and it was actually kind of nerve-racking for me; though I'm sure much more for him considering that while we're looking to clean up a bit in terms of the servers we have, we're pretty stocked full and he knew that coming in but I liked the attitude he had and the way he conducted himself so I told him that we're more than likely to lose a couple people in the next few weeks and he can give it a shot.
I shouldn't have wasted my time... It's great to have confidence and an upbeat attitude (it's not only great, for the most part it's necessary); but a false confidence, however, is absolutely annoying. He was a bullshitter, and a pretty good one at that, but when the questions about how to serve and about wine varietals, how to serve wine, etc. came up, he started fumbling his words and making excuses like not being trained properly in his past job (which was pretty much when I decided the interview was over, ten minutes in). Granted, the restaurant I'm running is not the usual waiting job; it's a wine cafe, and is very demanding on both the information side of knowing wine (we have no sommelier, so all servers must know their shit; we don't expect you to want to be a sommelier, but you've gotta know the fuckin' basics at least) and how to sell/pair with food/etc. But if you walk into a place that sells only wine and beer and while we have a menu, it isn't as large as most 'usual' restaurants...surely it's a hint that you'll have to be more than just an order taker. This ain't Denny's, no offense to any other waiters/bussers/restaurants (I have indeed worked at TGI Friday's before).
Case in point, and it may seem like a no brainer, but I learned yesterday that it is not: Get every single one of your ducks in a line, all of your facts straight, and dot your 'i's and cross your 't's before you even attempt to interview. Again, a great attitude and a handful of balls will go a long way, but eventually you'll have to get down to the nitty gritty and start spouting facts and knowledge of the job, and bullshitting only gets you so far. Don't even try it, don't even think about cutting corners... The weirdest, best advice that was ever given to me was 'if you're being interviewed, you're being dissected'. Unless you're lucky enough to have a shit-for-brains interviewing you...then be prepared to have every ounce of knowledge about the job you're interested in to be brought up and pulled out of you, and if you don't have it, expect to be thrown away.
This is more of a vent than anything...but I also feel that it's something that's taken for granted in today's society of having a great 'go-getter' attitude and all the other utter bullshit that goes with that and the rest of the motivational posters. Yeah, attitude is awesome and all...but if it's empty, then I'm gonna take the shy geek and simply whip some attitude into him as opposed to taking weeks to train and fill some dipshit up with knowledge, taking twice the time and effort. KNOW YOUR ENEMY!
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I interviewed many a people over the years, and yeah, the single thing that can (for me) bring the interview to a screeching halt is when the person tries to bullshit me. In fact, my bullshit-o-meter became a running gag in our group because it was such a showstopper to me. Other people either didn't pick up on the bullshitting, or didn't mind as much. I simply can't work with a person who will lie about something they don't actually know. Because it's usually the death sentence for whatever project you're working on.
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I am pretty poor at spotting a BSer unless its blatantly obvious. I guess I am just the type of person more likely to believe someone when they are talking. However, my way of dealing with this on the few interviews I have conducted is to take a question I just asked and recieved possible BS as a response and then change it to a scenario question to see if they know how to apply the BS they just spewed. Ive caught a few people in that before. They could talk the talk but couldnt walk the walk. Id rather them just say the truth "I dont know" or "I know this much, but cant speak any further about it"
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HR guys become "dopey HR guys" because people walk all over them and don't follow their advice. So don't let them make you a "dopey HR guy". :biggrin:
Does not compute. Every HR Manager I've ever known is female.
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HR guys become "dopey HR guys" because people walk all over them and don't follow their advice. So don't let them make you a "dopey HR guy". :biggrin:
Does not compute. Every HR Manager I've ever known is female.
Now that you mention it, yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a male HR Manager. There have been 3 HR Managers here at my company in the 14 years I've been here. They were all women.
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HR guys become "dopey HR guys" because people walk all over them and don't follow their advice. So don't let them make you a "dopey HR guy". :biggrin:
Does not compute. Every HR Manager I've ever known is female.
Now that you mention it, yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a male HR Manager. There have been 3 HR Managers here at my company in the 14 years I've been here. They were all women.
All ive known are women as well. Dont mean to sound sexist, but most HR people in general ive known are women and I just assumed that was a career that women try to pursue and hence the dominance by females.
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The ratio of male/female HR managers/directors is actually about even. I will say the majority of HR assistants typically are more Admin Assitant types who do general administrative duties, which are probably overwhelmingly female.
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The ratio of male/female HR managers/directors is actually about even. I will say the majority of HR assistants typically are more Admin Assitant types who do general administrative duties, which are probably overwhelmingly female.
Well, not at my company. The global VP of HR who reports to our CEO is female. Our Divisional VP is female... all of her directors and HR Managers are female. I honestly can't think of one time in my 12.5 year career here that I've ever dealt with, or even known of, a male HR leader. I'm in the IT industry, which by-and-large is a sausage fest. So, yeah.
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The ratio of male/female HR managers/directors is actually about even. I will say the majority of HR assistants typically are more Admin Assitant types who do general administrative duties, which are probably overwhelmingly female.
Well, not at my company. The global VP of HR who reports to our CEO is female. Our Divisional VP is female... all of her directors and HR Managers are female. I honestly can't think of one time in my 12.5 year career here that I've ever dealt with, or even known of, a male HR leader. I'm in the IT industry, which by-and-large is a sausage fest. So, yeah.
Same here, maybe why we both have seen the same situation regarding this.
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Same here. The only HR-related males I've met were both receptionists, and both were flamingly gay.
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We have 2 HR. One a male, who is a wordsmith. That man can take a paragraph, I wrote and spin it into something so eloquent it boggles the mind. The Female is the people person and works for the male. Both very helpful for us site managers.
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But, they eventually replied to my email inquiry, like 4 days later. They said they would make a decision some time next week.
Yeaaaaahhhh, or not. Week has passed again, no word. I think at this point, unless they're coming back with an amazing offer, I'm considering this a dud.
I checked earlier today, this interview process has been going on for one and a half months now, and things only ever move when I write emails. I mean, clearly I'm not a shoe-in, otherwise they would have made me an offer right away. So, I'm assuming they are keeping me around as a last-resort candidate (maybe because I'm too senior to be cheap salary-wise), but that's not where I want to be either.
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But, they eventually replied to my email inquiry, like 4 days later. They said they would make a decision some time next week.
Yeaaaaahhhh, or not. Week has passed again, no word. I think at this point, unless they're coming back with an amazing offer, I'm considering this a dud.
I checked earlier today, this interview process has been going on for one and a half months now, and things only ever move when I write emails. I mean, clearly I'm not a shoe-in, otherwise they would have made me an offer right away. So, I'm assuming they are keeping me around as a last-resort candidate (maybe because I'm too senior to be cheap salary-wise), but that's not where I want to be either.
This job must be really interesting for you to still be lingering around for them, unless you are at the point where you are just going to keep trolling them since they havent actually given you an answer.
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The company is called izotope, and they do music s software (mastering, drum machines etc). It would have meant combining my hobby with work. So yeah, it looked like a great job.
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The company is called izotope, and they do music s software (mastering, drum machines etc). It would have meant combining my hobby with work. So yeah, it looked like a great job.
I've used a couple of their plugins before, including the mastering one.
:lol Not really relevant, except that it's neat that you could have worked on something I know of.
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There is an old sales maxim that says, "Time kills all deals." This is especially true in recruiting/ hiring a candidate. The company may have internal issues they are sorting out, but they really love Rumby. But he's heard next to nothing and begins to A) wonder what's wrong with him as a candidate; and after he concludes, nothing is wrong with him, he B) concludes maybe rightly so, that something is wrong with the company, and pulls away. Bottom line, if YOU are hiring/ interviewing someone, have your act together and don't make them wait!
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Woooow, so they finally came back to me. Apparently the position was crazy popular, so they had a ton of people to interview before making a decision. Assuages it a little bit I guess (still think they should have been more vocal overall). Either way, they're not making me an offer, but it was the head engineer calling me, and he told me I was very high on their stack of people, and he wanted to stay connected since there's a good chance I might get an offer later.
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Congrats, sort of. I've gotten that call a few times myself, and it always feels like a consolation prize. "We picked someone else, but we'll keep your resume because we might have something for you later."
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Threadromancy!!
Anyway, time for some additions based on recent interviewees:
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DO: Answer questions completely but concisely
DON'T: Just keep talking and talking, drifting further and further from the stated question, hoping that you'll say something the interviewer wants to hear
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DO: Go in having done your research on the company, to a point where you can ask intelligent questions or make proper references to the company's business situation/needs.
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BE CAREFUL ABOUT: Changing your answer about a given topic from one interviewer to the next...it will come out that you just incorporated the first interviewer's comments into your answer next time around. OK to improve the manner in which you answer, but significant changes to substance will raise eyebrows.
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Millahh, has anyone ever overcome one of your "donts" to still get the job?
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BE CAREFUL ABOUT: Changing your answer about a given topic from one interviewer to the next...it will come out that you just incorporated the first interviewer's comments into your answer next time around. OK to improve the manner in which you answer, but significant changes to substance will raise eyebrows.
I'd be interested to hear you expand upon this point a little bit, if possible. Taken at face value, I feel like there's a fine line between taking the first interviewer's comments and incorporating that into future answers and completely changing answers. Could make it tough to determine where that line is at times.
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Millahh, has anyone ever overcome one of your "donts" to still get the job?
Yes (the guy who did all the stalling in his presentation)...but he was our third choice.
BE CAREFUL ABOUT: Changing your answer about a given topic from one interviewer to the next...it will come out that you just incorporated the first interviewer's comments into your answer next time around. OK to improve the manner in which you answer, but significant changes to substance will raise eyebrows.
I'd be interested to hear you expand upon this point a little bit, if possible. Taken at face value, I feel like there's a fine line between taking the first interviewer's comments and incorporating that into future answers and completely changing answers. Could make it tough to determine where that line is at times.
Here's a different way to think about it...it's not a good look to use a discussion from one interviewer to try and bullshit your way through a similar question from a later interviewer. It casts a negative light. I'd rather the candidate be more straightforward. I'm ok with refining the response or changing the framing, that's not unexpected.
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I definitely agree with the "Be Yourself."
I am attending college right now and I have a part time job at Starbucks (I LOVE Starbucks lol) and when I was interviewed, I found the process to be waaaay easier when I just spoke the truth. I answered briefly, but concise and to the point and I found it to be way easier to not be tongue tied and stutter, trying to say the "correct" answer the interviewer wants you to hear.
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I definitely agree with the "Be Yourself."
I am attending college right now and I have a part time job at Starbucks (I LOVE Starbucks lol) and when I was interviewed, I found the process to be waaaay easier when I just spoke the truth. I answered briefly, but concise and to the point and I found it to be way easier to not be tongue tied and stutter, trying to say the "correct" answer the interviewer wants you to hear.
"Speaking the truth" and "being yourself" aren't really the same thing, though. It's more about being AUTHENTIC. We are all multifaceted people; I do not waste a lot of time "being myself", but I do try to make sure I am being true to myself. I'm probably splitting microhairs, here, but I don't really care if people get my sensitive side, or my (admittedly odd) humor, or gets that I love music, but I do want them to leave thinking "that guy is genuine".
As for overcoming faults, everyone can, it's all a subjective thing to start with, but the trick is to simply try to improve your odds as best you can.
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Just read through this whole thread. Really good information, here, and it helps me learn as well since I'm taking a Business Communications class and we're on the topic of job interviewing and the information, itt, pretty much is what the text stated on the Do's and Don'ts.
I bookmarked this thread and hope that it helps me in the future when I got to go through with this process.
Well then. 2.5 years after making this post and I finally got an interview. So now I got some questions. If the interviewer takes you out to lunch, do you have to pay for the bill? Also, regarding the whole ask them a question. Asking them how they got their start and how they manage to be in the position they are in is appropriate right?
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Just read through this whole thread. Really good information, here, and it helps me learn as well since I'm taking a Business Communications class and we're on the topic of job interviewing and the information, itt, pretty much is what the text stated on the Do's and Don'ts.
I bookmarked this thread and hope that it helps me in the future when I got to go through with this process.
Well then. 2.5 years after making this post and I finally got an interview. So now I got some questions. If the interviewer takes you out to lunch, do you have to pay for the bill? Also, regarding the whole ask them a question. Asking them how they got their start and how they manage to be in the position they are in is appropriate right?
It depends. A casual sandwich with a "manager" or "supervisor" type would mean each pays for their own, but a sit-down lunch with executives or HR would generally go on their company card unless otherwise specified. I think it is always safest to assume you may have to pay for your own but you will not have to pay for theirs. Remember, they are attracting you and you are interviewing them.
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Ditto. Any time someone in a position of power takes you to lunch (someone interviewing you, a manager or other boss, etc.) they invited you, thus they will pay. Unless it's some kind of really twisted setup and they're testing you to see if you'll offer to pay or something, but that would be weird.
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I can't imagine a situation where lunch is part of the interview, and the applicant would be expected to pay anything... And unless there was a damn good reason for it, it would raise red flags about the place.
Now, if it's just a networking discussion, you should absolutely pay... But that's not an interview.
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Just read through this whole thread. Really good information, here, and it helps me learn as well since I'm taking a Business Communications class and we're on the topic of job interviewing and the information, itt, pretty much is what the text stated on the Do's and Don'ts.
I bookmarked this thread and hope that it helps me in the future when I got to go through with this process.
Well then. 2.5 years after making this post and I finally got an interview. So now I got some questions. If the interviewer takes you out to lunch, do you have to pay for the bill? Also, regarding the whole ask them a question. Asking them how they got their start and how they manage to be in the position they are in is appropriate right?
I think that is a very appropriate question. My rule of thumb: don't ask ANYTHING you can get from a website, or another, more junior, interviewer. It's always dicey to try to suss out hierarchy on the fly, but sometimes that can help you.
Don't be yourself, be your most productive, professional version of yourself. In other words, be authentic, but don't let your guard down.
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And here with the Counterpoint is Orbert
Thank you. First of all, Stadler is correct. I've done it that way and it works well. But here's a fun story about how I took exactly the opposite approach and it still worked.
I'd been working at one of the big airlines in the 90's when business was good, travel was up, money was flowing in. In the 00's, ("post 9/11") it all came apart, airlines took a huge hit, and after bankruptcy cutting my pay three times and my benefits twice, I starting looking at contracting gigs. I wasn't sure how badly I wanted it or needed it, so I only took it half seriously. I got set up for a phone interview with some company in the burbs needing a programmer. I took the morning off from work to do the phone interview from home, then I'd go in after lunch. The beauty and irony of taking company time to find another job secretly made me chuckle. Anyway, the kids went to school, wife went to work, and I visited my secret stash on the top shelf of the closet, and went outside the back door to smoke.
I came back in, made another cup of coffee, and did the phone interview. I was (obviously) quite relaxed and "myself" but a modified version of myself. They asked a lot of questions technical, business, semi-personal, all that. I answered honestly. I mentally put myself at a party, chatting with some guys I'd just met about work at our respective places, comparing notes and shit. They asked in a general way how to write efficient code. A magnificently open-ended yet specific question. Well, judicious use of the DROP and KEEP statements, knowing when to use an IF and when to use a WHERE is huge, paying attention to sort order and which variables are involved, always keeping in mind whether you're going to be summarizing later, so maybe you can kill multiple birds simultaneously by creating multiple datasets now. You know, the regular stuff.
Silence for a few seconds. There were three of them on the other side, sitting in a room on a speakerphone, and they'd just muted it and were talking amongst themselves. I'd either just blown them away or blown my shot with them, and I was too stoned to really know which. I took another sip of my coffee.
They came back on, they thought that that was a great answer. I told them Thanks, you know I've been doing this for ten years now, I guess I'm getting pretty good at it. They said Yeah, we can tell. But it wasn't a cynical thing, they were just acknowledging that I seemed to know what the fuck I was talking about. I decided to go for broke. I went faux-modest with them as I embarrassingly admitted to copping a few awards from various departments who all thought I was pretty good, and as far as I know, I could come work for you guys and do the same thing. Most of it was right there on my resume, which they were all sitting there holding.
More silence. They wanted me to come in and talk with them in person. Is Wednesday okay? This was Monday. Sure. I'd been working at my current job for just shy of 10 years, and decided somewhere in there to stop cutting my hair. I'd already gone full "Asian-looking Guy" and I wasn't going to cut it for an interview, something I would've done 10 years ago. I took Wednesday morning off (because fuck them), visited the top shelf again, and drove up to do the interview. I washed my hair and wore it long that day.
I got the job. They said they'd get back to me, but I got a call the next day. They said they'd wanted to make a decision before the end of the week. Ha! You fucking liars. You started phone screening people three days ago. You just saw me yesterday. You want me. You want to fellate me, admit it, and you want to do it before someone else gets a chance to. (Plus I work there now and know that there's no way it goes this fast.)
Anyway, it can work. I just got my super cool stupid gift commemorating 10 years at my current job.
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I can't imagine a situation where lunch is part of the interview, and the applicant would be expected to pay anything... And unless there was a damn good reason for it, it would raise red flags about the place.
Now, if it's just a networking discussion, you should absolutely pay... But that's not an interview.
Try working with the government, it gets hella complicated. Whenever we have them visit us, we just order in a lunch buffet to make it easy and give everybody food options.
However, we are not allowed to give them anything for free, as that could be considered a bribe, so we always have a small jar that all the government people drop a token $20 into, just to satisfy regulations.
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That's silly. "We're throwing lunch, and you're invited. It costs this much per person, and by the way, we really like you. That's a nice tie."
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Orbert, what did you get for your 10 year? I had mine in 2016 as well, and I got a telescope. ($80 worth, but still)
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Orbert, what did you get for your 10 year? I had mine in 2016 as well, and I got a telescope. ($80 worth, but still)
I got a crummy pen set at 5, but there was a big change (one of many big changes, as it was nominally two companies later due to M&A)...and I got a $250 gift card at 10 yr, and bought a new acoustic guitar with it.
Regarding who pays what, I'm referring exclusively to situations where you are being interviewed for employment...where I think the interviewing company should be paying. I understand having to tread very carefully on anything that could be construed as a gift/bribe/kickback...I work a]in pharma, and even though I'm in R&D, we all get the same training as the salespeople about that stuff.
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Don't be yourself, be your most productive, professional version of yourself. In other words, be authentic, but don't let your guard down.
This is a very concise statement of probably 3/4 of what my do/don't posts have been...just behave like a professional. It amazes me how much this eludes people who should know better (most of the examples I listed were with PhDs who had a few years experience).
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Orbert, what did you get for your 10 year? I had mine in 2016 as well, and I got a telescope. ($80 worth, but still)
I got a crummy pen set at 5, but there was a big change (one of many big changes, as it was nominally two companies later due to M&A)...and I got a $250 gift card at 10 yr, and bought a new acoustic guitar with it.
Winner. :tup
For my 10-year, I picked a duffel bag, a pretty nice one, to use as a cord bag for gigs. It's big enough to fit all my cords and pedals comfortably, plus the sax stand, meaning one less thing to carry. Big double zipper, a couple of good-sized outside compartments as well, perfect for what I need. I don't wear a watch anymore, don't wear ties either so the tie pins were useless, in fact any kind of jewelry was automatically out, didn't want a stupid plaque thing or other "trophy" thing, so I went practical.
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Well, finished the interview a few hours ago, I think I did all right. Sadly, I flubbed on one accounting-related question that I just remember the answer now.
So, how soon should I construct the thank-you email and how do I format it? Also, should I mention the answer to the question I flubbed on in the email?
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Anyway, the kids went to school, wife went to work, and I visited my secret stash on the top shelf of the closet, and went outside the back door to smoke.
... I took Wednesday morning off (because fuck them), visited the top shelf again, and drove up to do the interview
Damn Orbert you are the man :lol as much as I love to hit the secret stash, I don't think I have the balls to do so before an interview.
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Well, as I said, I wasn't sure how badly I wanted the job (giving up a salaried position for a contract gig scared the hell out of me), so I decided to have some fun with it. The phone interview went so well, I figured I'd go for broke.
I remember thinking that at the very least, I will likely be unlike anything they'd ever seen before, and laughed to myself wondering if they'd notice my "Chinese eyes", but figured probably not because I am in fact Chinese and they'd be too busy freaking out about my Fu Manchu and ponytail.
It worked for me because for I generally retain aptitude and subject knowledge, and I know that that's not the case for most people. I remember in particular, they asked me about one thing on the resume that I said I had experience in, and I do, but it was literally just running programs that someone else had written, and I had to fix one parameter one time. I never wrote anything from scratch or anything like that (VBA if you're curious; I hate that shit, never took a class or anything). They asked me about it, and I told them exactly that, and confessed that I'd put it on the resume hoping to score a few more interviews, and while I did have "some experience" with it, I wasn't going to lie and claim to be an expert or anything, and I laughed. We're just guys at a party, shooting the shit, you know?
They seemed impressed that I would be so blunt about something like that. What, he admits to not being an expert and only putting it on the resume to score more interviews? First of all, it's always a mistake to lie in an interview. Maybe the truth will come out, maybe not, but if it does, you look really bad. And maybe it doesn't even cost you the job, but someone will remember that you lied, misrepresented yourself, and it could cost you future promotions. The other thing is never to lie when you're stoned. That weaves a web I cannot be bothered with, so I just don't. It's easier that way. So I had two good reasons to just be straight with these guys, and I think they liked that.
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Well, finished the interview a few hours ago, I think I did all right. Sadly, I flubbed on one accounting-related question that I just remember the answer now.
So, how soon should I construct the thank-you email and how do I format it? Also, should I mention the answer to the question I flubbed on in the email?
I realize this is a bit late but:
-As early as that evening, and as late as about 2 days later should be fine for an email
-Don't have much comment about format, other than to lead with thanking them for their time, and then following with something specific that interested you or that you found appealing. This could also be a good spot to address the flubbed question. Personally, I wouldn't see an issue with it (and would see it as a positive), but would be interested in what others think.
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So last week I took a drug test for a new job. I drank a couple glasses of water that afternoon because I wanted to make sure I could go when I got there for the test. Today I got a call from the woman who interviewed me, telling me that my test came back as "negative - dilute." Now she's checking with her HR director to see what the next step is. I'm going to be really upset if I can't just go take the test again, because there's absolutely nothing in my system that I'm trying to hide.
So, I guess... don't stay hydrated, folks.
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So last week I took a drug test for a new job. I drank a couple glasses of water that afternoon because I wanted to make sure I could go when I got there for the test. Today I got a call from the woman who interviewed me, telling me that my test came back as "negative - dilute." Now she's checking with her HR director to see what the next step is. I'm going to be really upset if I can't just go take the test again, because there's absolutely nothing in my system that I'm trying to hide.
So, I guess... don't stay hydrated, folks.
That's so lame. Got to wonder how much did you drink though? :lol People do lots of things to dilute their piss to pass a test hence why they pick up on these things, but it's totally possible to be diluted naturally from drinking lots of water so it shouldn't be something to hold you back, but maybe retest.
The first time I had to take a piss test, I didn't have to go. I think I chilled there for an hour just chugging water and drinking coffee and finally I had the urine to pee :lol it was pretty embarrassing. ( I passed btw)
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I had to do the same thing cramx3. Took about an hour for me.
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So last week I took a drug test for a new job. I drank a couple glasses of water that afternoon because I wanted to make sure I could go when I got there for the test. Today I got a call from the woman who interviewed me, telling me that my test came back as "negative - dilute." Now she's checking with her HR director to see what the next step is. I'm going to be really upset if I can't just go take the test again, because there's absolutely nothing in my system that I'm trying to hide.
So, I guess... don't stay hydrated, folks.
That's so lame. Got to wonder how much did you drink though? :lol People do lots of things to dilute their piss to pass a test hence why they pick up on these things, but it's totally possible to be diluted naturally from drinking lots of water so it shouldn't be something to hold you back, but maybe retest.
The first time I had to take a piss test, I didn't have to go. I think I chilled there for an hour just chugging water and drinking coffee and finally I had the urine to pee :lol it was pretty embarrassing. ( I passed btw)
I drank two 16oz glasses of water over the course of a couple hours leading up to the test that afternoon. And I drank one when I first woke up that morning. That's totally normal for my day to day life. But apparently I'm too hydrated for these tests.
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So last week I took a drug test for a new job. I drank a couple glasses of water that afternoon because I wanted to make sure I could go when I got there for the test. Today I got a call from the woman who interviewed me, telling me that my test came back as "negative - dilute." Now she's checking with her HR director to see what the next step is. I'm going to be really upset if I can't just go take the test again, because there's absolutely nothing in my system that I'm trying to hide.
So, I guess... don't stay hydrated, folks.
That's so lame. Got to wonder how much did you drink though? :lol People do lots of things to dilute their piss to pass a test hence why they pick up on these things, but it's totally possible to be diluted naturally from drinking lots of water so it shouldn't be something to hold you back, but maybe retest.
The first time I had to take a piss test, I didn't have to go. I think I chilled there for an hour just chugging water and drinking coffee and finally I had the urine to pee :lol it was pretty embarrassing. ( I passed btw)
I drank two 16oz glasses of water over the course of a couple hours leading up to the test that afternoon. And I drank one when I first woke up that morning. That's totally normal for my day to day life. But apparently I'm too hydrated for these tests.
Yea that doesn't seem like much to me either
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So last week I took a drug test for a new job. I drank a couple glasses of water that afternoon because I wanted to make sure I could go when I got there for the test. Today I got a call from the woman who interviewed me, telling me that my test came back as "negative - dilute." Now she's checking with her HR director to see what the next step is. I'm going to be really upset if I can't just go take the test again, because there's absolutely nothing in my system that I'm trying to hide.
So, I guess... don't stay hydrated, folks.
So they called me today and made me go immediately to take another test. I figured it was coming so I drank pretty much nothing today so as to avoid the dilution issue. Everything should be good to go now, thank god.
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So last week I took a drug test for a new job. I drank a couple glasses of water that afternoon because I wanted to make sure I could go when I got there for the test. Today I got a call from the woman who interviewed me, telling me that my test came back as "negative - dilute." Now she's checking with her HR director to see what the next step is. I'm going to be really upset if I can't just go take the test again, because there's absolutely nothing in my system that I'm trying to hide.
So, I guess... don't stay hydrated, folks.
So they called me today and made me go immediately to take another test. I figured it was coming so I drank pretty much nothing today so as to avoid the dilution issue. Everything should be good to go now, thank god.
Drug tests really irritate me. The guy a few cubes down from me can't go a lunch break without getting a beer or two somewhere in the city, and he hits up a different happy hour every day after work, but if I want to smoke a joint once I'm home, that makes me kind of incompetent employee. I hate my job, and I haven't smoked in nearly four months now simply due to the off chance I might see a listing that catches my eye for something I'm actually interested in.
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So last week I took a drug test for a new job. I drank a couple glasses of water that afternoon because I wanted to make sure I could go when I got there for the test. Today I got a call from the woman who interviewed me, telling me that my test came back as "negative - dilute." Now she's checking with her HR director to see what the next step is. I'm going to be really upset if I can't just go take the test again, because there's absolutely nothing in my system that I'm trying to hide.
So, I guess... don't stay hydrated, folks.
So they called me today and made me go immediately to take another test. I figured it was coming so I drank pretty much nothing today so as to avoid the dilution issue. Everything should be good to go now, thank god.
Drug tests really irritate me. The guy a few cubes down from me can't go a lunch break without getting a beer a beer to two somewhere in the city, and he hits up a different happy hour every day after work, but if I want to smoke a joint once I'm home, that makes me kind of incompetent employee. I hate my job, and I haven't smoked in nearly four months now simply due to the off chance I might see a listing that catches my eye for something I'm actually interested in.
Not only that, but drug tests have shown to make no difference. People can pretty easily cheat them or just abstain for a period to pass and then continue once they get the job.
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So last week I took a drug test for a new job. I drank a couple glasses of water that afternoon because I wanted to make sure I could go when I got there for the test. Today I got a call from the woman who interviewed me, telling me that my test came back as "negative - dilute." Now she's checking with her HR director to see what the next step is. I'm going to be really upset if I can't just go take the test again, because there's absolutely nothing in my system that I'm trying to hide.
So, I guess... don't stay hydrated, folks.
So they called me today and made me go immediately to take another test. I figured it was coming so I drank pretty much nothing today so as to avoid the dilution issue. Everything should be good to go now, thank god.
Drug tests really irritate me. The guy a few cubes down from me can't go a lunch break without getting a beer a beer to two somewhere in the city, and he hits up a different happy hour every day after work, but if I want to smoke a joint once I'm home, that makes me kind of incompetent employee. I hate my job, and I haven't smoked in nearly four months now simply due to the off chance I might see a listing that catches my eye for something I'm actually interested in.
Not only that, but drug tests have shown to make no difference. People can pretty easily cheat them or just abstain for a period to pass and then continue once they get the job.
As soon as I got the call saying I was hired, I celebrated by driving to the local head shop and buying $350 worth of fresh glass :lol It's so stupid. I can understand if you were applying to a place where heavy machinery, cutting open hearts, or flying planes was involved, but for a desk job, does it really matter? I'm here promptly at 7:30 every morning and haven't had a single deliverable be late in the 2 years I've been here. I feel like that's all that should matter.
It's primarily the insurance companies. They offer you better rates if you test your employees. Less chance of them having to pay a claim for an accident.
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My company is private, but likely to go public soon. My boss has said he is worried they will implement drug testing once going public. I don't think so, the company would fold. Tech companies are filled with stoners and pill poppers. Our competitors facebook and google don't drug test because it would severely limit the talent pool.
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My company is private, but likely to go public soon. My boss has said he is worried they will implement drug testing once going public. I don't think so, the company would fold. Tech companies are filled with stoners and pill poppers. Our competitors facebook and google don't drug test because it would severely limit the talent pool.
The FBI and CIA can't find top notch IT security personnel because they lose them all to Cali. Silicon valley doesn't control their personal habits outside of work. If you've smoked pot within the last three years, you can't work for the FBI. I think it was in Bloomberg, but I was reading something a few months ago that was talking about how a lot of the engineers and coders at google and facebook take tiny doses of LSD before their shifts to get the creative juices flowing.
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My company is private, but likely to go public soon. My boss has said he is worried they will implement drug testing once going public. I don't think so, the company would fold. Tech companies are filled with stoners and pill poppers. Our competitors facebook and google don't drug test because it would severely limit the talent pool.
The FBI and CIA can't find top notch IT security personnel because they lose them all to Cali. Silicon valley doesn't control their personal habits outside of work. If you've smoked pot within the last three years, you can't work for the FBI. I think it was in Bloomberg, but I was reading something a few months ago that was talking about how a lot of the engineers and coders at google and facebook take tiny doses of LSD before their shifts to get the creative juices flowing.
lol
When I first started here it was crazy busy and understaffed and we worked like dogs. Overnight weekends whatever. I'm very much against doing any drugs besides marijuana personally, but my boss had told me a lot of people in the office were regularly taking uppers to be able to handle the work loads and stay awake. I personally find that unhealthy and not cool, but luckily we've broken out of the start up phase.
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The company I'm at (Citi) does initial testing before you're hired, but they only continue testing you after you start if you work as a driver or something like that (which seems somewhat reasonable).
So last week I took a drug test for a new job. I drank a couple glasses of water that afternoon because I wanted to make sure I could go when I got there for the test. Today I got a call from the woman who interviewed me, telling me that my test came back as "negative - dilute." Now she's checking with her HR director to see what the next step is. I'm going to be really upset if I can't just go take the test again, because there's absolutely nothing in my system that I'm trying to hide.
So, I guess... don't stay hydrated, folks.
So they called me today and made me go immediately to take another test. I figured it was coming so I drank pretty much nothing today so as to avoid the dilution issue. Everything should be good to go now, thank god.
Drug tests really irritate me. The guy a few cubes down from me can't go a lunch break without getting a beer or two somewhere in the city, and he hits up a different happy hour every day after work, but if I want to smoke a joint once I'm home, that makes me kind of incompetent employee. I hate my job, and I haven't smoked in nearly four months now simply due to the off chance I might see a listing that catches my eye for something I'm actually interested in.
I've always felt very weird about having a beer at lunch during a work day. In almost four years I think I've done that twice.
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My company is private, but likely to go public soon. My boss has said he is worried they will implement drug testing once going public. I don't think so, the company would fold. Tech companies are filled with stoners and pill poppers. Our competitors facebook and google don't drug test because it would severely limit the talent pool.
The FBI and CIA can't find top notch IT security personnel because they lose them all to Cali. Silicon valley doesn't control their personal habits outside of work. If you've smoked pot within the last three years, you can't work for the FBI. I think it was in Bloomberg, but I was reading something a few months ago that was talking about how a lot of the engineers and coders at google and facebook take tiny doses of LSD before their shifts to get the creative juices flowing.
lol
When I first started here it was crazy busy and understaffed and we worked like dogs. Overnight weekends whatever. I'm very much against doing any drugs besides marijuana personally, but my boss had told me a lot of people in the office were regularly taking uppers to be able to handle the work loads and stay awake. I personally find that unhealthy and not cool, but luckily we've broken out of the start up phase.
I know that feeling. Cannabis is all I'll use these days (and not currently :( ). When I was in college though, my doctor prescribed me this stuff called Vyvanse. Holllllly fuck. I never once made the honor roll in grade school or highschool, and I nearly failed out of college twice before transferring to CCSU. I started taking this stuff, and all of a sudden it was like ever section of my brain was firing on all cylinders. I could finally 'read' for the first time in my life. I graduated with a 3.62 and in the top 10% of the school of business. The side effects were pretty nasty though. I think about getting back on it for the sake of work. My job would be a piece of cake, but I'd rather not deal with the side effects and possible problems down the road.
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Bump!
I got a query via PM from someone, with the following situation:
-In a job ~4.5 years, had started looking for a similar position elsewhere, as the current workplace was toxic, stressful, and generally mismanaged
-Got a phone interview with a different place, but didn't hear back for a while, figured they were not interested in him
-Wound up quitting the original job for general suckage (finances not an issue)
-Place with the phone interview winds up calling him back after he'd already quit the original place
His questions are:
1). Have I screwed myself on the new job by quitting the original job?
2). How do I talk about having quit the original job?
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My thoughts are:
1). They already saw your resume and you already had the phone interview. I think you're past the window where not having a current job could be seen as a negative. I think the whole "if you don't have a job, you must be unemployable" thing is horseshit, but regardless you are past the gatekeeper because they saw your resume, talked to you, and want to bring you in for a real interview. You've demonstrated that you're employable. I'm not even sure that you're obligated to tell them that you quit your old job (unless directly asked), your resume was accurate at the time they read it.
2). You don't want to disparage your old employer, as the natural reaction to seeing that is to assume that you'll trash them on the way out the door as well. You might be able to say that you had outgrown it, and were in a position to be able to leave and open yourself up to new challenges. You may also be able to talk about some of the things you learned from that experience tat you could bring to the new position, but do it in such a way that you're not throwing the old employer under the bus.
Very curious for other folks' thoughts on this, especially the second question...
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Having quit my last job (also for general suckage), leading to an employment gap prior to my current job, I'm curious what people think about it as well. It eventually worked out for me, but that was an extremely stressful time.
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His questions are:
1). Have I screwed myself on the new job by quitting the original job?
2). How do I talk about having quit the original job?
**
My thoughts are:
1). They already saw your resume and you already had the phone interview. I think you're past the window where not having a current job could be seen as a negative. I think the whole "if you don't have a job, you must be unemployable" thing is horseshit, but regardless you are past the gatekeeper because they saw your resume, talked to you, and want to bring you in for a real interview. You've demonstrated that you're employable. I'm not even sure that you're obligated to tell them that you quit your old job (unless directly asked), your resume was accurate at the time they read it.
2). You don't want to disparage your old employer, as the natural reaction to seeing that is to assume that you'll trash them on the way out the door as well. You might be able to say that you had outgrown it, and were in a position to be able to leave and open yourself up to new challenges. You may also be able to talk about some of the things you learned from that experience tat you could bring to the new position, but do it in such a way that you're not throwing the old employer under the bus.
Very curious for other folks' thoughts on this, especially the second question...
I agree with your assessment. The fact that he received a call back from the new potential employer is a good sign, but if it doesn't work out, he's already quit the current job. I don't think it will have any impact.
As to the second question, if it comes up during the interview, I'd be honest and respectful. Admit that you have already resigned and talk about the prior employer in a positive manner. It can be framed in a way that there were just disagreements in how to handle _____ situations, etc.. Whatever the situation may be. It also gives the candidate an opportunity to say "I'm available to start RIGHT NOW," rather than having to wait X number of weeks out of respect to the prior employer. That is a big plus for some people who need a new hired to start asap.
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I know this is semi-off topic but I'm applying for a job online right now and couldn't find a "job" thread with the search function. I'm not sure how to convey that I went to college pursuing a Bachelor of Science but didn't graduate. It doesn't have the "some college" option but rather these are the closest to being correct for me:
"High school diploma or GED (11+ years)"
"Associate's Degree/College Diploma (13+ years)"
"Bachelor's Degree (16+ years)"
"None of the above"
The next field has the following modifiers to clarify how the curriculum ended:
Did you graduate from the program listed above?
"Yes"
"No"
"No Selection"
I'm thinking "Bachelor's Degree (16+ years)" + "No" would be the most accurate but I just don't wanna risk looking like a liar if some HR type misreads it so would I be better off going with "High school diploma or GED (11+ years)" since I did complete that?
Also, are you tanking your application if you don't upload a resume? I've been at my current job for 1 year and 8 months as well as my previous one for almost 5 years if we exclude the 2.5 month gap between the two where I left the 5-year job for what seemed like a better opportunity only to get canned (presumably) as a payroll casualty since the place seemed to be slowly going out of business.
Conveniently, I left Florida after getting fired from the middle job that I held for only 3 weeks so I plan on excluding that job and accounting for the two month gap in employment by saying I took time off to get everything in order for my return to my hometown in the New Orleans area.
Since the application has separate sections for listing recent employment history and uploading a resume, would it be bad to just fill in the recent employment history (excluding the 3-week job) and exclude the resume? This would show me having been continuously employed for the last 6.5 years at only two different jobs except for a 2.5 month gap.
Thanks y'all!
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Depends how “professional” the job is, you don’t want to lie on your application, and you should upload a resume. I know some places don’t care as long as your application is correct but again, it depends.
1) you did not graduate college, your option should be high School diploma.
2) Upload a resume. If it is well done, it will make you look that much more employable.
3) having too many gaps in your resume/job history (even if years apart), does not look good. So be ready to have a really good excuse.
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It's a huge corporation that's a borderline household name in America so it's very professional.
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Yeah, if you don't submit a resume you don't stand a chance. Odds are an algorithm is going to comb through your submission before any actual human sees it, and it'll probably just get tossed if you don't have one.
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Yeah, if you don't submit a resume you don't stand a chance. Odds are an algorithm is going to comb through your submission before any actual human sees it, and it'll probably just get tossed if you don't have one.
All resume's go thru some kind of 'bot to filter out the noise. I'd guess 90% of resume submissions never see a set of human eyes.
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I look at every resume sent to me.
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Either way, you still have to have one to even get that far. Resumes are not optional.
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I added my resume to the application. Thanks a bunch y'all.
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Yeah, if you don't submit a resume you don't stand a chance. Odds are an algorithm is going to comb through your submission before any actual human sees it, and it'll probably just get tossed if you don't have one.
All resume's go thru some kind of 'bot to filter out the noise. I'd guess 90% of resume submissions never see a set of human eyes.
My resume has a bunch of buzzwords set to size 2 and a white font at the very bottom of the last page. I don't know if it give me an edge or not, but I would think the bots would pick up the keywords and push the application through.
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Yeah, if you don't submit a resume you don't stand a chance. Odds are an algorithm is going to comb through your submission before any actual human sees it, and it'll probably just get tossed if you don't have one.
All resume's go thru some kind of 'bot to filter out the noise. I'd guess 90% of resume submissions never see a set of human eyes.
My resume has a bunch of buzzwords set to size 2 and a white font at the very bottom of the last page. I don't know if it give me an edge or not, but I would think the bots would pick up the keywords and push the application through.
Lol that is clever.
But yeah, Jingle is right, if the resume goes through an application process, there is a chance some algorithm dumps it out before anyone sees it. If your application goes directly to a person, not having a resume will have a great impact on whether or not they contact you.
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Yeah, if you don't submit a resume you don't stand a chance. Odds are an algorithm is going to comb through your submission before any actual human sees it, and it'll probably just get tossed if you don't have one.
All resume's go thru some kind of 'bot to filter out the noise. I'd guess 90% of resume submissions never see a set of human eyes.
My resume has a bunch of buzzwords set to size 2 and a white font at the very bottom of the last page. I don't know if it give me an edge or not, but I would think the bots would pick up the keywords and push the application through.
:lol good idea, is this trick derivied from somewhere or you just tried it out? I'm wondering if someone from a recruiter divulged some secrets.
But speaking of resumes... mine is so old. And I had one on career builder from 2009 and I don't know why but all of the sudden I am getting phone calls about it :lol Like why is someone calling about my clearly old resume? I certainly don't trust them, but I took it down and I really need to update mine, even my linkedin is over 5 years old now. Which I just realized I hadn't logged in tehre for years. I didn't even realize how many people I know actively use it for social media essentially.
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Holy shit I started this thread almost ten years ago... :lol
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Yeah, if you don't submit a resume you don't stand a chance. Odds are an algorithm is going to comb through your submission before any actual human sees it, and it'll probably just get tossed if you don't have one.
All resume's go thru some kind of 'bot to filter out the noise. I'd guess 90% of resume submissions never see a set of human eyes.
My resume has a bunch of buzzwords set to size 2 and a white font at the very bottom of the last page. I don't know if it give me an edge or not, but I would think the bots would pick up the keywords and push the application through.
:lol good idea, is this trick derivied from somewhere or you just tried it out? I'm wondering if someone from a recruiter divulged some secrets.
I used to do it with entire paragraphs (would copy and paste) when college professors used to require a specific word count. All they'd do was open the word doc and look at the count at the bottom. If I added 400 hidden words at the end of what was supposed to be a 3000 word write up, they were none the wiser.
It just made sense to me that a similar tactic could be used to outsmart algorithms.
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Resumes are not optional. If you don't send it, a field will be blank, and if they have filters to winnow down applicants, you'll suffer.
Truthfulness is more important than accuracy, in the sense that if none of the lines actually fits, you still need to be able to defend the answer. I think you have the right approach with "Bachelor's + No".
The other one about the quitting the job is more subjective. That totally depends on who you are talking to. I would personally not bring it up unless asked, and if asked I would fall back on the idea that "truthfulness is more important than accuracy". If they ask "are you currently employed with that company", you have to say "no". I encountered this very question with a very large international (i.e. professional) company, where their questions made it seem like I was still employed by a company even though I left them almost six months before. I was asked about it and I answered truthfully (that I wasn't still employed by them, but that I was employed at that point as an independent) and was later told in confidence that when contemplating the offer that was finally given to me, the only issue that mattered was "Did I lie on my application?". At the end of the day, I can honestly say "I did not". I have no way of knowing how deep their understanding of the actual events was. That's not my problem.
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Is it a bad idea to call after a few day's to check on the status of your application? If not, then how many days after submitting your application should you call?
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It depends on what they've told you, if anything. If they say something like "We expect to make a decision by next week" then you sit tight. And if you haven't heard back in like 10 days, call them. If they say something vague like "We're still in the early part of the process" or some shit, then I don't think you're out of line calling back in a week. But I try not to leave any meeting, including an interview, without some kind of timeline. Ask them when you can expect to hear from them.
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I've only applied online for this and haven't had any human contact of any kind yet.
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In that case, I have no idea. I think you apply to things online and then basically wait for someone to contact you.
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I'm willing to be risky with this job. It basically pays what my current job does but on just a 40 hour week in four days with the full weekend off as opposed to my current 50-55 hour week plus it has health insurance (dental and vision too) and 401k and I won't have to use my own car for work anymore. I want this more badly than anything else I've encountered in the last five years that doesn't have a vagina.
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For online application is usually a waiting game. Specially if it's a big company, you might not even be able to contact the person reviewing your application. If you do get a hold of that person, they might just tell you "We will start reviewing application in X weeks".
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For online application is usually a waiting game. Specially if it's a big company, you might not even be able to contact the person reviewing your application. If you do get a hold of that person, they might just tell you "We will start reviewing application in X weeks".
Ain't that the truth. I applied for a job last year to be an audit compliance manager at a marijuana production facility. They called me 7 months later.
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Were you able to pass the drug test?
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Were you able to pass the drug test?
After about 25 minutes of back and forth on the phone, I decided to not even come in for an interview. They called me to ask me to interview for another position they had open up. I wanted to know the salary range for the position and the woman wouldn't give it to me. I kept getting the "Well, we take a bunch of factors into account when determining a salary, blah blah blah". It eventually got to me saying "You must have some kind of minimum figure, and you definitely have a maximum figure you're willing to pay for this position. That's all I'm asking for.".
She finally told me the max they were willing to pay and I'd have been taking a 40% pay cut. I'm not sure whether or not there was a drug test for it, but if there was, I wouldn't have passed it without cheating.
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Wait.... did I put two and two together correctly?
You would have had a drug test (that you would have likely failed) for an Audit Compliance Manager at a marijuana production facility?
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That was the joke I was making.
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I was offered a job . Guy told me it pays 10 dollars an hour, In 6 months it goes up to 12.50. I told the guy I’ll be back in 6 months.
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I've decided I need to start seriously looking for a new job. But I can't seem to get myself to eve apply for anything.
Some background on why I feel like leaving: I've been there 7 years and it feels like my drive and interest in the company is waning. The group I primarily support is all but being disbanded, basically making the job I was hired to do irrelevant. My job has shifted over the years and I report in through a different group, but that group is severely behind on it's revenue goals for the year. I'm the highest paid non-manager in the company by far (and probably make more than most of the managers as well) and I feel like sooner or later someone on high will look at me and wonder why they're paying me so much when
I work in an under performing group and primarily support a group that they're letting die.
My problem is that my current job is 2 miles away. I almost never work more than 40 hours a week. I get a 15% bonus every year (varied dependent on company performance, but it's averaged around 100% the last 4 years, this year on track for 135%) and am paid fairly for my normal salary. I am skeptical that I will be able to find anything that pays better, doesn't require a bunch of extra hours, and doesn't lead to a long commute. So I'm not even bothering to apply. I don't know if I should listen to the part of my brain that's reluctant or if I should listen to the part that says it's time to move on from this job. I also feel like I have a little bit of impostor syndrome going on, where my critical side is telling myself that I'm not good enough or don't have the experience for the jobs I see listed.
Not sure if anyone can offer any insight. I know I can apply and interview for jobs without actually accepting an offer, and I keep telling myself to do just that. But I can't get myself to even apply.
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Yeah, I'm in a similar boat, finally think I'm at a breaking point with my job. Love the hours and the work/life balance, but I'm tired of getting the periodic emails from GlassDoor showing the salary range for someone with my education and experience and seeing myself way at the ass end of the spectrum. Basically planning on seeing how my year end comp discussion goes early next year but getting a sense so far that it's not going to go well enough to keep me from looking elsewhere.
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Yeah, I'm in a similar boat, finally think I'm at a breaking point with my job. Love the hours and the work/life balance, but I'm tired of getting the periodic emails from GlassDoor showing the salary range for someone with my education and experience and seeing myself way at the ass end of the spectrum. Basically planning on seeing how my year end comp discussion goes early next year but getting a sense so far that it's not going to go well enough to keep me from looking elsewhere.
Haven't you been getting brushed off about promotion/comp stuff for a couple of years now?
@lordxizor, I think there'a another way you might be able to play this. Do you ever get calls from recruiters, or do you have any recruiter contacts? Some of them have specific positions they are trying to get filled (and therefore get commission), but there are some that will take the attributes you're looking for, and see what they can find to match. That way, you can be getting a better read on what is available, without having to switch into "actively looking" mode, and you might get a better outcome.
I'm having to start thinking about this again. I last (knowingly) interviewed over 14 years ago, but given that we're getting bought and there are huge synergy targets, I expect that I'll be searching sometime next summer. I'm effectively on my fourth or fifth different job within the company (including the legacy companies), but I think that run comes to an end soon. It's just as well, as I've picked up enough skills, knowledge and experience that I think I can leverage it into a decent jump in position/salary (I know I'm underpaid, but I've been getting invaluable experience, and I'm still very well-compensated in the grand scheme). So right now I'm trying to pack in all the additional experience I can (sure, I can become an expert in genetics and gene therapy in six months!), and figuring out how I want to position myself for what comes next.
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@lordxizor, I think there'a another way you might be able to play this. Do you ever get calls from recruiters, or do you have any recruiter contacts? Some of them have specific positions they are trying to get filled (and therefore get commission), but there are some that will take the attributes you're looking for, and see what they can find to match. That way, you can be getting a better read on what is available, without having to switch into "actively looking" mode, and you might get a better outcome.
Yeah, I should reach out to the couple of recruiters I've spoken with over the years. I did list myself as seeking a new position on Linkedin, which means a bunch should be reaching out. Most of them are in the boat of having a particular position they want me to consider, which is rarely anything close to what I want, I just matched some keyword search. But occasionally a good one comes around that seems to genuinely want to find the right position for you. That's how I got my current job.
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Yeah, I'm in a similar boat, finally think I'm at a breaking point with my job. Love the hours and the work/life balance, but I'm tired of getting the periodic emails from GlassDoor showing the salary range for someone with my education and experience and seeing myself way at the ass end of the spectrum. Basically planning on seeing how my year end comp discussion goes early next year but getting a sense so far that it's not going to go well enough to keep me from looking elsewhere.
Haven't you been getting brushed off about promotion/comp stuff for a couple of years now?
Pretty much. Been getting just enough not to push me out the door, while still being short of what's appropriate/fair.
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@lordxizor, I think there'a another way you might be able to play this. Do you ever get calls from recruiters, or do you have any recruiter contacts? Some of them have specific positions they are trying to get filled (and therefore get commission), but there are some that will take the attributes you're looking for, and see what they can find to match. That way, you can be getting a better read on what is available, without having to switch into "actively looking" mode, and you might get a better outcome.
Yeah, I should reach out to the couple of recruiters I've spoken with over the years. I did list myself as seeking a new position on Linkedin, which means a bunch should be reaching out. Most of them are in the boat of having a particular position they want me to consider, which is rarely anything close to what I want, I just matched some keyword search. But occasionally a good one comes around that seems to genuinely want to find the right position for you. That's how I got my current job.
Don't hold your breath. I've been listed as that for a few years.... never had a single recruiter reach out to me on LinkedIn.
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I think it depends on the skill set listed. I get contacted by recruiters all the time but it's primarily shitty level 1 help desk gigs
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@lordxizor, I think there'a another way you might be able to play this. Do you ever get calls from recruiters, or do you have any recruiter contacts? Some of them have specific positions they are trying to get filled (and therefore get commission), but there are some that will take the attributes you're looking for, and see what they can find to match. That way, you can be getting a better read on what is available, without having to switch into "actively looking" mode, and you might get a better outcome.
Yeah, I should reach out to the couple of recruiters I've spoken with over the years. I did list myself as seeking a new position on Linkedin, which means a bunch should be reaching out. Most of them are in the boat of having a particular position they want me to consider, which is rarely anything close to what I want, I just matched some keyword search. But occasionally a good one comes around that seems to genuinely want to find the right position for you. That's how I got my current job.
Don't hold your breath. I've been listed as that for a few years.... never had a single recruiter reach out to me on LinkedIn.
I've done it before and gotten a bunch of inquiries. The vast majority of the sort that makes me wonder if they even read my job experience at all, but a few decent ones. I did get one through there already, but it was a contract gig, which I'm not interested in.
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@lordxizor, I think there'a another way you might be able to play this. Do you ever get calls from recruiters, or do you have any recruiter contacts? Some of them have specific positions they are trying to get filled (and therefore get commission), but there are some that will take the attributes you're looking for, and see what they can find to match. That way, you can be getting a better read on what is available, without having to switch into "actively looking" mode, and you might get a better outcome.
Yeah, I should reach out to the couple of recruiters I've spoken with over the years. I did list myself as seeking a new position on Linkedin, which means a bunch should be reaching out. Most of them are in the boat of having a particular position they want me to consider, which is rarely anything close to what I want, I just matched some keyword search. But occasionally a good one comes around that seems to genuinely want to find the right position for you. That's how I got my current job.
Don't hold your breath. I've been listed as that for a few years.... never had a single recruiter reach out to me on LinkedIn.
My linkedin hasn't been updated in 6 years or so, still shows my old company and old info and yet... I always get recruiter emails. I don't read them, I know those jobs couldn't be for me if they are basing it off old info, but I'm surprised that if you listed yourself as seeking a new job that you woulnd't get the tons of recruiter emails. Maybe it's because I'm near NYC? Or maybe it's just because of the job.
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Alright boys and girls. Interview in an a hour. Funny... I've interviewed dozens and dozens of people for entry level positions (which is essentially what I'm interviewing for but completely different field), yet in actually really nervous going into this. Even with an inside scoop (my best friend works there. His sister in law just left the company- on good terms which opened up the spot that I'm gunning for, my best friend's wife worked there in college... The owner is close with his wife's family), I feel like I may fuck it up somehow. I know to be genuine and not try to hard / put on a front. I also know that I'd be pretty damn good at this job. Gotta stay cool and not get cocky.
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Whatever you do, don't mentioned anything about the shit you have to put up with at your current job. Keep those thoughts and feelings limited to DTF.
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All they know (from what my buddy told them when he got me the interview) is that the account we were working at (he was there too and went straight to this job) shut down, I was given an offer to continue on with the company in a different capacity, and it's not what I was originally promised. Probably too much already but it is what it is.
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All they know (from what my buddy told them when he got me the interview) is that the account we were working at (he was there too and went straight to this job) shut down, I was given an offer to continue on with the company in a different capacity, and it's not what I was originally promised. Probably too much already but it is what it is.
I'm sure that's fine...you are already so connected to this place you're interviewing that there's no way you could come in as a truly blank slate. They know what they know, it gives a little context, and that's fine/enough.
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Sitting in reception area.. Got here 15 min early. Met the manager already. Just waiting.
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Sitting in reception area.. Got here 15 min early. Met the manager already. Just waiting.
Take lots of "bro" selfies. They'll love it.
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Sitting in reception area.. Got here 15 min early. Met the manager already. Just waiting.
Take lots of "bro" selfies. They'll love it.
Ask the receptionist if she can walk out from behind the desk so you can see her legs. She'll like the compliment.
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Also (and I know the interview is over by now) ask the receptionist where the bathroom is, and then tell her that you need to take a dump. They will appreciate your articulation and specificity.
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Ask for the wifi password, and tell them Pornhub is running a special on their premier service. They will admire your tech savviness, and your awareness of current events.
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Hahaha. Was given an offer. They seemed to really like me.
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Congrats!
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In all seriousness, congratulations, and good luck to you.
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Nice job dude!
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I knew the announced dump thing would work.
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I'm seriously looking for a new job for the first time in 7+ years. Had a few phone interviews and have two in person interviews next week. It's been so long, I'm a bit nervous about it. They both sound like decent opportunities, but the details would need to be right in order for me to consider offers. But I'm optimistic that the right thing is out there for me. Only been really trying for about 2 weeks and I'm getting lots of interest, so that's really promising.
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I wasn't offered the job that I was feeling the most positive about. Kinda bummed. I have a second one that I've got a fourth (!) interview with today. I think it's very likely I'll get an offer soon, but I'm not super excited about the company.
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Sucks about the first one, but good luck with this one
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So I work in a field in which the main position is VERY difficult to find good pools of people for your main position. There are just so many licensed funeral directors in the state, only so many of those don't work for family businesses, only so many of those are looking for a new job, and only so many of those are quality people. So I can have a job opening for 2-3 months, and literally only receive 3-4 applications.
With all that said, I have one candidate who I would have otherwise probably hired after his first time in, but he volunteered during the interview process all his various health ailments over the years. While I appreciate his honesty, I couldn't help but hear what he was saying and process this as "well, it looks like this guy will be prone to regular prolonged absences from work over the next few years". I realize that's probably not great on me as a person, but it's what I was thinking from the logistical end.
I'm circling back to the guy now and interviewing him again on Friday, as frankly I've come around to just wanting a quality person in at this point and am tired of being short-staffed, but it would have been beneficial for him had he not offered up that information he did not need to and that I wouldn't ask him about. So that's one direct example of advice from me.
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On a more general front, personally I wish candidates would come in ready to ask more questions. Asking about our operations or the job details helps us both get a better understanding of where we are, and makes the interview process a bit more personable and a little less like a one way grilling. It also shows genuine interest in the position and knowing what you're potentially signing up for.
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So I work in a field in which the main position is VERY difficult to find good pools of people for your main position. There are just so many licensed funeral directors in the state, only so many of those don't work for family businesses, only so many of those are looking for a new job, and only so many of those are quality people. So I can have a job opening for 2-3 months, and literally only receive 3-4 applications.
With all that said, I have one candidate who I would have otherwise probably hired after his first time in, but he volunteered during the interview process all his various health ailments over the years. While I appreciate his honesty, I couldn't help but hear what he was saying and process this as "well, it looks like this guy will be prone to regular prolonged absences from work over the next few years". I realize that's probably not great on me as a person, but it's what I was thinking from the logistical end.
I'm circling back to the guy now and interviewing him again on Friday, as frankly I've come around to just wanting a quality person in at this point and am tired of being short-staffed, but it would have been beneficial for him had he not offered up that information he did not need to and that I wouldn't ask him about. So that's one direct example of advice from me.
Well, think of it this way. If you hire him, you're not just getting an employee, you're also getting a future customer.
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So I was all but offered this other job I've been interviewing for during my 4th call with them this afternoon. They seem to really like me a lot and an official offer should come before the end of the week. problem is that I'm not really feeling it. I feel bad, but unless they completely blow me away with a crazy offer I'm probably going to turn it down. I wish I could articulate why, but it just doesn't feel right for me right now.
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Got an offer today, which unfortunately is right in the sweet spot of not low enough to immediately dismiss, but also not high enough to immediately accept. I'm still waiting on the fine details of the benefits they offer. To the negotiations we go I guess. I really don't want to lose 2 weeks of PTO, but I'm not sure how negotiable that is.
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At my previous job, I was talking with a co-worker about how our benefits were pretty good, but the standard two weeks of vacation seemed a little weak, especially compared to how many companies are now offering three weeks to start. My co-worker shared that that was one of his negotiating points. He'd pushed for a third week of vacation, told them that everything else was good, but he really wanted that third week or he was gonna take something else. They gave it to him. I was impressed, and also kinda bummed. I had a few years on this guy, and he had more vacation days per year than me.
This was like 15 years ago, but I've never forgotten it. If they want you, it certainly doesn't hurt to see how badly they want you, and what they're willing to give.
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Don't at all disagree with Orbert here, but this is where education/knowledge comes into play. Companies value different things in different ways; have options for what you want, without being so obstinate that you're ultimately asking for blood. Maybe $5,000 more a year is a dealbreaker for them, but a week's vacation is not. Or perhaps they will honor your seniority at another company (I had a company honor my GE time when calculating longevity benefits like vacation and what not).
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Got an offer today, which unfortunately is right in the sweet spot of not low enough to immediately dismiss, but also not high enough to immediately accept. I'm still waiting on the fine details of the benefits they offer. To the negotiations we go I guess. I really don't want to lose 2 weeks of PTO, but I'm not sure how negotiable that is.
Time off is way easier to negotiate than salary. Tell them you're accustomed to four and are willing to meet in the middle.
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Got an offer today, which unfortunately is right in the sweet spot of not low enough to immediately dismiss, but also not high enough to immediately accept. I'm still waiting on the fine details of the benefits they offer. To the negotiations we go I guess. I really don't want to lose 2 weeks of PTO, but I'm not sure how negotiable that is.
Time off is way easier to negotiate than salary. Tell them you're accustomed to four and are willing to meet in the middle.
I've heard that some companies don't negotiate PTO time by policy, so we'll see how this one goes.
They're offering me an 8% raise while reducing my PTO by two weeks and this is a job I am far more likely to have to put in some extra hours than my current job. I basically want at least 10k more and 2 more weeks of PTO. I guess all I can do is ask. I'm also not super sold on the company in general.
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Got an offer today, which unfortunately is right in the sweet spot of not low enough to immediately dismiss, but also not high enough to immediately accept. I'm still waiting on the fine details of the benefits they offer. To the negotiations we go I guess. I really don't want to lose 2 weeks of PTO, but I'm not sure how negotiable that is.
Time off is way easier to negotiate than salary. Tell them you're accustomed to four and are willing to meet in the middle.
I've heard that some companies don't negotiate PTO time by policy, so we'll see how this one goes.
They're offering me an 8% raise while reducing my PTO by two weeks and this is a job I am far more likely to have to put in some extra hours than my current job. I basically want at least 10k more and 2 more weeks of PTO. I guess all I can do is ask. I'm also not super sold on the company in general.
What about career trajectory? Shouldn't that play a role besides just pay and PTO? If you think you've got better prospects for your future at that job, it might weigh more than the extra 2% or more than the 2 more PTO weeks.
When I took my current job, I actually took a cut in my salary in return for better benefits but also a much better career trajectory as I had kind of maxed out on what I could learn at my old job. I'm actually kind of in the same spot now 6 years later. I make more than I did before and have lots of PTO, but not learning much anymore and if I could get a job that ups my career game, I could take a little less in other areas.
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Career trajectory is certainly important, but I'm not willing to take a net loss to go there at this point. The job market is good and I should be able to find something better if this one doesn't pan out. The 2 weeks PTO is massively important to me as well.
I should also point out that I'm about 3 months away from getting an 18% bonus, so that's a huge factor as well. I'd be foregoing that by leaving, so it really has to be the ideal situation.
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Hard to walk away when you see an imminent pay day. I should be getting my bonus on Friday and it's a big reason why I haven't pursued a lot of my thoughts about wanting to leave. I have another bonus due in August which just makes it hard to walk away. That bonus is a retention bonus too so it's all just about me staying. However, that will be my last retention bonus...
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Crunched the numbers on the benefits and the higher medical and dental insurance premiums, lower HSA contribution, higher insurance deductibles, and lower 401k match make their offer seem about $5000 less than it looks compared to my current job. So that sucks. I'm supposed to give them the number that I would accept in the morning. I'm still really on the fence about it. Part of me thinks that's a sign I should just pass, but another part of me thinks I'm just feeling nervous about making a change.
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My position at work is about to be expendable soon after my company has been acquitted. I'm contemplating whether to look for other jobs this month or until like they inform me that my position is going to be terminated in like 30 days months from now.
Probably will have to look for a new position now, but after being here for like three years on my first job ever and done good enough work, I don't know if I'm ready to leave yet although I do feel like I've made it as far as I can go and probably want to see what else is out there to give me a better fulfillment on everything.
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Best job interview answer ever (not technically a job interview but I think it qualifies).
https://youtu.be/PM9iK8Gp-rk
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My position at work is about to be expendable soon after my company has been acquitted. I'm contemplating whether to look for other jobs this month or until like they inform me that my position is going to be terminated in like 30 days months from now.
Probably will have to look for a new position now, but after being here for like three years on my first job ever and done good enough work, I don't know if I'm ready to leave yet although I do feel like I've made it as far as I can go and probably want to see what else is out there to give me a better fulfillment on everything.
start looking now. No reason not to.
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Slept on the offer I got yesterday and I'm going to decline. I was supposed to come up with a counteroffer number that would get me to accept and I couldn't come up with one. Even if I asked for a crazy big number, I would still have been reluctant to take the job. My gut is telling me that it's not the right place for me. So, time to start applying for other jobs again!
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I have interviews today and tomorrow with one of the biggest companies in my industry for a position that would be a big challenge and huge step up for me. I sent info to the recruiter I'm working with on who I'm interviewing with and he came back to me saying "wow... those are some really heavy hitters in the industry" so now I'm freaking nervous as hell about this. I really want this job. It sounds awesome and the company is great. But I feel a little under-qualified and I know that I won't be able to fudge my way through the technical stuff based on who I'm talking to. I'll be honest on what I don't know, but stress that I'm looking for a challenge and want to learn. I have a few hours to collect myself and be ready. Thankfully it's a video interview, so at least I don't have the drive there to stress out during.
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Good luck but I do wonder how hiring will work in the current environment. One of my friends accepted an offer for a new job but when he asks them about the current situation with the virus, they aren't giving him all warm and fuzzy responses and now he isn't sure. I mean, if you leave your job and the place you go to sinks cause of this, you might be screwed. Who knows, but "stay frosty"
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Good luck but I do wonder how hiring will work in the current environment. One of my friends accepted an offer for a new job but when he asks them about the current situation with the virus, they aren't giving him all warm and fuzzy responses and now he isn't sure. I mean, if you leave your job and the place you go to sinks cause of this, you might be screwed. Who knows, but "stay frosty"
Yeah, the interview was already changed from in-person to video conference. I'm certainly not going to quit my current job until I have assurance that I will actually have a job ready for me. I work in the medical device industry and and this one of the biggest companies, so I have no worries of them going under or even having to shut down because of all the Covid stuff.
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Good luck but I do wonder how hiring will work in the current environment. One of my friends accepted an offer for a new job but when he asks them about the current situation with the virus, they aren't giving him all warm and fuzzy responses and now he isn't sure. I mean, if you leave your job and the place you go to sinks cause of this, you might be screwed. Who knows, but "stay frosty"
Yeah, the interview was already changed from in-person to video conference. I'm certainly not going to quit my current job until I have assurance that I will actually have a job ready for me. I work in the medical device industry and and this one of the biggest companies, so I have no worries of them going under or even having to shut down because of all the Covid stuff.
Oh yea, I guess their business is booming
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Arg... The job got offered to an internal person. Really bummed. I had great interviews and was super excited about the job. Even the recruiter I was working with was pissed about them passing on me.
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Sorry to hear that. Stuff like that is so annoying.
The company I work for has a policy that any job vacancies have to be posted publicly, even if everybody in the department already knows who the best person is for the position and/or is going to get it. The corporate line is that we don't want to limit ourselves; there's the possibility that someone from outside could be perfect for the job. Yeah, that's possible, but it also means that lots of people apply for jobs that realistically they never had a chance at because everybody already knew who was going to get it anyway. I've applied to openings elsewhere in the company, and eventually stopped after someone told me point blank that most of the time, it was a foregone conclusion. I would think that a lot of places operate this way.
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Yeah, my company has something similar. A lot of times when you get promoted you don't actually get directly promoted. The easier way is usually for them to create a new job opening for the position they want to promote you to, and then you apply for it and get it. But even if the opening was created specifically to promote you they have to leave the job posting up for at least a week.
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Ok, after personal shit hiatus, I'm back!
Lordx, sorry to hear they passed you over, but it does sound like you interviewed well, and I hope you can take something from that. Way back in the day, I started this thread from experiences interviewing people who were terrible at interviews at relatively senior levels. So, even if this one didn't materialize, you should still fell confident about the next opportunity, you are well ahead of a lot of people.
And yeah, the internal candidate thing can suck. For us, we fulfill the letter of the requirement...if there is something where there is someone internal already picked, we post it for five days, then close it. That checks the box of posting it publicly but keeps the hassle to a minimum (and we also aren't leading anyone on). I've also seen what axeman describes...promotion and HR politics elude me sometimes.
My situation is about to get interesting. My employer is about to get gobbled up by one of the two big Chicago pharma companies (not Orbert's current one), the close is now expected in May. And, I've requested the severance package (culturally, the new company would be a terrible fit for me and there would be now growth opportunities). So now I'm networking, talking to recruiters, and preparing to interview, all virtually (and I'm going to have to start cutting y own hair, which will look GREAT on skype calls!). On top of this, it's the first time I will have (knowingly) interviewed in 15 years; then it was PhD entry level, now it's potentially VP level. So, I really have no idea what I'm doing here. Overall, I'm feeling ok about things, but I also now that reality hasn't quite set in yet.
One of the decisions that I'm facing is what the next role looks like. On one hand, there is a small company I've started talking to that would be a hand-in-glove fit with so much of my experience, to a point where I suspect I know some of their business better than they do; it sounds fun and exciting, and I would want to interview with them just to figure out how they are tackling certain regulatory and reimbursement challenges. On the other hand, I could try to catch on some place doing something where I have some recent experience but is still outside my comfort zone (gene therapy), and will offer a much better long-term trajectory for me. Unfortunately, I can't do the first then the second...going to the "comfortable" company would be a one-way valve, away from gene therapy (which is the wave of the future). I know the "hard" path is the right one...it's appealing to know that I could walk in some place and instantly be a rock star, but I'm guessing the shine would wear off in a year, and I'd wind up regretting it. Sigh...
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Lordx, sorry to hear they passed you over, but it does sound like you interviewed well, and I hope you can take something from that. Way back in the day, I started this thread from experiences interviewing people who were terrible at interviews at relatively senior levels. So, even if this one didn't materialize, you should still fell confident about the next opportunity, you are well ahead of a lot of people.
I happened to drive by the office where I would have worked yesterday and I was super bummed again, but I did actually get a pretty big boost to my self esteem through the whole thing. I got really positive feedback on my experience from the hiring manager and one other person I talked to. I took it as being sincere since there's no reason to praise someone in an interview just to make them feel good. The fact that through two months of passive job searching I've been runner up for two jobs that I would have accepted and declined an offer from a third company, I feel pretty good about my ability to find a new job this year. Though the lockdowns and stuff throw a wrench in things. I'm going to continue my passive search for now. I'm in a stable job despite the craziness and get a massive bonus (assuming my company doesn't decide to be shitty and withhold it due to all the turmoil despite the fact we're doing just fine) in two months. I'm feeling pretty confident all things considered.
Best of luck in your search! Sounds like you're sitting in a good position as well.
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Sorry to hear that. Stuff like that is so annoying.
The company I work for has a policy that any job vacancies have to be posted publicly, even if everybody in the department already knows who the best person is for the position and/or is going to get it. The corporate line is that we don't want to limit ourselves; there's the possibility that someone from outside could be perfect for the job. Yeah, that's possible, but it also means that lots of people apply for jobs that realistically they never had a chance at because everybody already knew who was going to get it anyway. I've applied to openings elsewhere in the company, and eventually stopped after someone told me point blank that most of the time, it was a foregone conclusion. I would think that a lot of places operate this way.
Agreed... I suspect this is pretty standard in any industry / market. Still annoying as shit. Even worseso when companies actually interview outside candidates when the hiring manager has zero intention of extending an offer.
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Most places have the 3-candidates rule, meaning you have to interview at least 3 candidates before making an offer to anybody. That means that even if you are planning to make an offer to an internal candidate, you need to find 2 other people to interview for no other reason than to hit the minimum 3-candidate (some people count phone interviews on this). With that said, it is still pretty annoying. Last time I was interviewing for jobs, it was so demoralizing to interview for a place, only to learn the next day an internal candidate got the job.
With the current situation, I am honestly considering leaving my current position. I know the timing is not right though, so I will hold on until later in the year when things start to settle.
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Looks like I have I guess an interview pre-cursor tomorrow. I put in an application at another bank about two weeks ago and just got an email today from a recruiter who works at the bank to set up a call to "discuss the position with me and see if there's a match". From the sound of it I'm expecting to just be speaking with HR so it shouldn't be too long or in-depth of a conversation.
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Looks like I have I guess an interview pre-cursor tomorrow. I put in an application at another bank about two weeks ago and just got an email today from a recruiter who works at the bank to set up a call to "discuss the position with me and see if there's a match". From the sound of it I'm expecting to just be speaking with HR so it shouldn't be too long or in-depth of a conversation.
Awesome! Hopefully it's a fruitful call. Video or just audio? I'm likely going to start having these soon myself, and I'm in fear of what I look like on video after a couple of months of DIY haircuts.
I've made up a whole list of typical interview questions for senior/exec roles, and am going to be working through my responses, so I can be better prepared and in the right mindset. It's gonna piss down rain tomorrow anyway, so maybe that is my project.
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Scroll back; if memory serves, Adami and I gave some really helpful tips for interviewing. ;) :) :)
Seriously, good luck to both of you. I hope the calls go as you hope them to (Millahh, I don't know if you actually have a call pending or not, but either way, if you're preparing, good luck).
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Scroll back; if memory serves, Adami and I gave some really helpful tips for interviewing. ;) :) :)
Seriously, good luck to both of you. I hope the calls go as you hope them to (Millahh, I don't know if you actually have a call pending or not, but either way, if you're preparing, good luck).
Thanks! Nothing pending just yet, had a couple of solid networking calls, but waiting to pull the trigger on applying and trying to have interviews until I know what my fate/timeline looks like at my current gig (good chance I know by the end of the week, we'll see).
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Looks like I have I guess an interview pre-cursor tomorrow. I put in an application at another bank about two weeks ago and just got an email today from a recruiter who works at the bank to set up a call to "discuss the position with me and see if there's a match". From the sound of it I'm expecting to just be speaking with HR so it shouldn't be too long or in-depth of a conversation.
Awesome! Hopefully it's a fruitful call. Video or just audio? I'm likely going to start having these soon myself, and I'm in fear of what I look like on video after a couple of months of DIY haircuts.
I've made up a whole list of typical interview questions for senior/exec roles, and am going to be working through my responses, so I can be better prepared and in the right mindset. It's gonna piss down rain tomorrow anyway, so maybe that is my project.
Just audio for this one. I definitely will need to see to my unkempt facial hair if this proceeds to a video conference call or something :lol
Scroll back; if memory serves, Adami and I gave some really helpful tips for interviewing. ;) :) :)
Seriously, good luck to both of you. I hope the calls go as you hope them to (Millahh, I don't know if you actually have a call pending or not, but either way, if you're preparing, good luck).
Thanks Stads. Expecting to at least make it to a formal first round interview because my resume fits the job description perfectly.
They didn't ask about salary history, but there was a mandatory field for salary expectations. I put down a number that would be a little over a 35% raise for me, and while I know that I won't definitely get that if this goes well it's at least in the ballpark enough not to scare them off.
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So, I had my call last Tuesday with the HR rep and it went fine. He had one or two background questions about my resume, we talked some about my compensation expectations (he told me that the number I gave was within their range, with room on either side), and he explained that they were hiring people now and shipping them the equipment to start out remotely (and not just stockpiling hires to all start when the office opens again). When the call was ending he said he'd be in touch in the coming days to set up a half-hour interview with the hiring manager. Now it's been a week and I haven't heard back. Appropriate for me to reach back out on this point and see if he needs any further info from me?
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So, I had my call last Tuesday with the HR rep and it went fine. He had one or two background questions about my resume, we talked some about my compensation expectations (he told me that the number I gave was within their range, with room on either side), and he explained that they were hiring people now and shipping them the equipment to start out remotely (and not just stockpiling hires to all start when the office opens again). When the call was ending he said he'd be in touch in the coming days to set up a half-hour interview with the hiring manager. Now it's been a week and I haven't heard back. Appropriate for me to reach back out on this point and see if he needs any further info from me?
It's worth reaching out, IMO. These things always seem to take longer than they should. It'd be nice for you to hear either way.
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Agreed. Reach out.
I'm never quite sure how to play it when this happens, but I usually go with something like "I'm just checking back, in case I somehow missed your call and didn't realize it..." That way it's kinda your fault even if it's really theirs. But it almost doesn't matter as long as you're not obnoxious about it. They know what they told you, and they know they didn't call back in the timeframe originally specified. It happens. This at least lets them know you're still interested.
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Agreed, that's reasonable. That's part of what HR's job is. Now, if it were the hiring manager directly, I'd say give more latitude...
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Thanks guys. Thinking I'll drop him a note tomorrow during office hours thanking him for taking the time to speak with me the other night and seeing if he needs any more info from me.
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So my company has a hiring freeze and part of it is becuase there's an issue doing background checks right now? I don't know if anyone else heard about that, or maybe it's resolved now, but I wonder if that could be an issue with anyone really looking to change jobs right now.
That's only part of the reason, the other is that they don't want to onboard people without giving the proper in person day 1 training. Shipping out a laptop and stuff does work, but I guess they don't want to bring people in if they can't do it the way they feel is the right way.
I think the reality is that business is slow and it's hard to bring on new heard count when we aren't really building the product at the moment like we normally would be.
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Thanks guys. Thinking I'll drop him a note tomorrow during office hours thanking him for taking the time to speak with me the other night and seeing if he needs any more info from me.
So I emailed the HR guy on May 6th and had radio silence until the 18th. The HR guy got back to me last Monday apologizing for the lack of news and explaining that the hiring manager for the role had been in flux and did end up changing. He set up a half-hour phone interview with the new hiring manager for Friday afternoon, which I think largely went well. I dropped the hiring manager a thank-you email Friday night, and he came back with a one liner response this morning. I know he said he had more initial interviews lined up, and the HR guy had said there would be a series of second-round interviews as the next step (assuming I passed the first round). How long do I wait before following up with my HR contact?
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Thanks guys. Thinking I'll drop him a note tomorrow during office hours thanking him for taking the time to speak with me the other night and seeing if he needs any more info from me.
So I emailed the HR guy on May 6th and had radio silence until the 18th. The HR guy got back to me last Monday apologizing for the lack of news and explaining that the hiring manager for the role had been in flux and did end up changing. He set up a half-hour phone interview with the new hiring manager for Friday afternoon, which I think largely went well. I dropped the hiring manager a thank-you email Friday night, and he came back with a one liner response this morning. I know he said he had more initial interviews lined up, and the HR guy had said there would be a series of second-round interviews as the next step (assuming I passed the first round). How long do I wait before following up with my HR contact?
My reflex would be to say to give it to the end of next week. It sounds like you were probably at the front end of the batch of candidates, so it gives them two weeks to complete the phone interviews and figure out who they want to get a better look at. I gel like that strikes the balance of "assertive, but not a pain in the ass". That said...I haven't been in on phone screen interview cycles, just the in-person stages, so feel free to take anything I say on this with a significant grain of salt.
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The new hiring manager throws a wrench into things. I probably agree with Millahh, because of that.
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Grrr. That brings back some nightmares from when I was changing careers 20-some years ago.
My degree is in Math Education, and I had gotten riffed from my current job. Last one hired, first one fired; that's how it works in education. Anyway, I'd interviewed at a pretty nice school that had just built a brand new computer lab. This was in the 90's when those were still kinda rare, and my minor in computer science qualified me to teach computer science. I was one of two finalists for the gig at this school, and they told me that we'd both be coming back for second interviews. Presumably with the principal or maybe assistant principal, as the department head was the one I'd met and who'd picked the two finalists.
I didn't hear anything for a week, then another week. Meanwhile I interviewed with some other schools, but I finally called this one back. Found out that they had a new principal, and he decided to do his own interviews, starting from scratch. Also, he'd already done the interviews and would be making a decision soon. Apparently I went from one of the finalists to not even considered, due to a change at the top. Shit.
Sorry that this isn't really relevant, but I don't get to share that story very often and your situation reminded me of it.
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Thanks guys. Just got contacted for another first round interview this afternoon. Not as excited about it just based on the job description, but even if it just serves as an offer I can use to get a raise from my current job I'll take it. The position I interviewed for on Friday I'd actually be fairly likely to leave for, depending on the number they'd offer.
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I'm rooting for you, Bill. I hope it comes through!
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Forgot about this thread.
So, since COVID, work in universities has almost disappeared. My coworker and I are both looking for a university psychologist job in New York, and as of now, there's literally one university hiring, so we both went for it. We felt supportive of each other because it's multiple positions, so it didn't feel like strict competition. So he applied a month before I did and got the offer for an interview on a Friday. On that Monday, he told me, and I was worried that I just didn't get it. But then they called me Tuesday to offer me an interview.
He went a few days before me and gave me some info on what they asked, which was helpful to just make mental notes about certain things.
So we both have the first round interview. He said it went very badly for him, but I felt like it went fine for me. We're both told we'd hear by the end of the week.
So the next day, I get an offer for a second round interview. He doesn't hear back. I feel bad but we go on. Then later the next week, he gets the offer for the interview as well. Hurray! So then last Friday I had my 2nd round interview with the director, another area director, and a VP of student affairs. I feel the interview is mostly good, but the questions were insanely broad, so it was hard to get all the info in an answer and ended up rambling a lot. No biggie.
So I tell my friend about what it was like, what kind of stuff they asked etc, so he can be prepared.
Then he has his yesterday. Turns out it wasn't a 2nd round interview at all. They just redid the first round interview and didn't tell him.
Anyone heard of something like this? He's pretty upset and I'm feeling bad about it.
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I've not heard of that, but isn't that a good thing, all in all? Doesn't he get another chance to get back on the track? And now, since he's a little behind, he gets the benefit of your wisdom (seriously).
It kind of evens things out for you two as well; I was kind of feeling bad for him, because you were a couple days behind on all things and so had an advantage. This levels the playing field, though. He's got your intel, but he's got the hurdle of a blown initial interview.
In any event, here's hoping that both of you get an offer!!!
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I've not heard of that, but isn't that a good thing, all in all? Doesn't he get another chance to get back on the track? And now, since he's a little behind, he gets the benefit of your wisdom (seriously).
It kind of evens things out for you two as well; I was kind of feeling bad for him, because you were a couple days behind on all things and so had an advantage. This levels the playing field, though. He's got your intel, but he's got the hurdle of a blown initial interview.
In any event, here's hoping that both of you get an offer!!!
I think what made him upset was the lack of clarity or transparency. They didn't tell him that's what the interview would be, so he was expecting a totally different thing. I feel like they should have said "hey...so the last one didn't go so well, no big deal, why don't we meet again and try to see how much better things could be" or something. Instead he thought it was a 2nd round interview. He had to ask, mid interview, if this was a 2nd round interview and they just said no.
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Stadler, please clear your inbox. :lol
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I feel like they should have said "hey...so the last one didn't go so well, no big deal, why don't we meet again and try to see how much better things could be" or something. Instead he thought it was a 2nd round interview. He had to ask, mid interview, if this was a 2nd round interview and they just said no.
That's kinda bizarre. I've never heard of something like that, and as you point out, it could easily have been made more clear what they were doing.
Is there some chance that this was intentional? Like maybe they too sensed that the first one didn't go well, but they wanted to see how he reacted to being put into an awkward/unexpected situation? That's the only thing I can think of.
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I feel like they should have said "hey...so the last one didn't go so well, no big deal, why don't we meet again and try to see how much better things could be" or something. Instead he thought it was a 2nd round interview. He had to ask, mid interview, if this was a 2nd round interview and they just said no.
That's kinda bizarre. I've never heard of something like that, and as you point out, it could easily have been made more clear what they were doing.
Is there some chance that this was intentional? Like maybe they too sensed that the first one didn't go well, but they wanted to see how he reacted to being put into an awkward/unexpected situation? That's the only thing I can think of.
I doubt they did it just to fuck with him. If there was any HR-type intermediary between the person making the hiring decision and your friend, it's very likely the message just didn't get communicated correctly. I've seen horror stories in big companies from this kind of stuff, where the "talent/recruitment" folks really fuck up communication, screen incorrectly, schedule badly, etc., and this is academia, where things can get wonky in their own weird ways.
This strikes me as a great kindness from the institution, realizing he just had an off-day and giving him a do-over, but that message got lost. I understand that it was whiplash for him, but it's a net positive when viewed from a distance.
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Anyone heard of something like this? He's pretty upset and I'm feeling bad about it.
Is it possible they are aware you two know each other and are trying to change it up because of that? I'd imagine your resumes with the same school and year might give them that impression? I honestly have no idea, just tossing an idea out.
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Got a rejection email from the place I interviewed with on Friday. Appropriate at all to reach out to my HR contact for feedback? That was my first interview in more than seven years, and I was never particularly good at it to begin with.
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Got a rejection email from the place I interviewed with on Friday. Appropriate at all to reach out to my HR contact for feedback? That was my first interview in more than seven years, and I was never particularly good at it to begin with.
I'm sorry, Bill, that is disappointing.
I don't think it's unreasonable to broach the idea of feedback with HR, particularly because of the divergent outcomes between our first and second interviews. Though 1). couch is as part of a "thank you for facilitating everything", and 2). don't hold your breath for a meaningful response.
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Yeah, that's what I figured, start with a thanks for arranging the opportunity and then see if there's any feedback he'd be comfortable sharing.
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I cannot overstate how fucking much I hate writing cover letters. It's been 15 years since I had to, and the situation has changed a lot since then...when I was right out of grad school, I was trying to make it look like I brought something unique when I felt like I was working with nothing (same could be said for my CV). Now, while I have lovingly crafted my CV into something that hits all its marks and is both compact and effective, cover letters are still just an ugly slog. I know what they need to cover and how to use them to frame up how the employer sees you, but they are excruciating to write, feel really stilted, and I feel like I can't find the balance between showing that I'm qualified, and coming of as been there/done that arrogant (and I'm occasionally trying to spin a ear of experience on something into being more impressive than I feel it actually is). There's a lot to be said and a very limited space to say it, and the whole thing just feels clumsy. I guess it's better to have the current problem with it than trying to make something out of nothing, but it is still obnoxious.
The other thing I find myself struggling with is figuring out how to access the "hidden" job market, where everything is done via executive search or by networks. I'm right at the edge of that, job-level wise. There are certainly some things I'm finding that are the right fit, but I know there have to be more out there, and I'm trying to figure out how to tap into those, or get the attention of the recruiters. There's got to be more than LinkedIn, right?
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My belief is that 90% of LinkedIn job posting are never filled via LinkedIn applicants. Probably higher. Seeing my company have jobs show up there that I know are already filled or not going to be filled, and my experience of only getting 2 responses (other than canned FOAD rejection emails) of the 50+ I applied there (with several where my CV lined up perfectly with the job description) in my job search 3 years ago ... yeah, public job postings are the worst way to job hunt.
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A few years ago, after some rearranging and shaking up happened at my workplace, I took a look around, just to see what else was out there. I realized right away that I had no idea what the current norms were regarding pretty much anything. Resumes, cover letters, other protocols such as when it's okay to call them vs when you just email them, or maybe just through their website. Holy shit! Between that and the fact that I already know my skills are pretty dated and I haven't kept up on things, I just said WTF and decided to try and ride it out. I have about ten years still until my house is paid off. I just need to stay employed that long.
So, uh, sorry, no help here. Just sympathy.
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My belief is that 90% of LinkedIn job posting are never filled via LinkedIn applicants. Probably higher. Seeing my company have jobs show up there that I know are already filled or not going to be filled, and my experience of only getting 2 responses (other than canned FOAD rejection emails) of the 50+ I applied there (with several where my CV lined up perfectly with the job description) in my job search 3 years ago ... yeah, public job postings are the worst way to job hunt.
I've been using LinkedIn postings as a way of identifying some of what is out there, then trying to find an "in" at the company (either via network, or just reaching out to their HR person), so that when I submit my materials via the company website (not via LinkedIn!) they are more likely to get proper attention. Another issue with LinkedIn postings is that they disappear even though the position still exists, I've had that happen with a couple of them so far.
Where it gets a little trickier is with positions posted by staffing agencies, there's really no way around to make sure you get better attention, but even then I will go via their website rather than LinkedIn.
The CV matching up perfectly with certain positions is where I foresee my life being unnecessarily difficult. I'm looking for growth positions, rather than stuff that is a perfect match for my CV. I've tried to reflect that in my CV as much as I can (emphasizing things that show learning, adaptability and portable skills), but I expect I'll still be drawing attention for things where I've been there, done that.
A few years ago, after some rearranging and shaking up happened at my workplace, I took a look around, just to see what else was out there. I realized right away that I had no idea what the current norms were regarding pretty much anything.
That would be when your employer split out my current employer?
As far as norms go, I've mentioned it before, but the Ask a Manager blog is pretty much THE source for anything related to job hunting & workplace issues, I know both my CV and cover letter are far better for it. I still need to work on search tactics, though....
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So I've mentioned in some other threads that I've been furloughed since May 15th.....and have recently been told by my supervisor that they don't foresee any remaining Project Managers being called back during the furlough period that runs out November 15th. After that date....we are essentially fired. I'll get to cash out my 165 hours of PTO and there is a severance package that will be allotted based off of years served (I have 8 years in) Anyway, I've been trying to find other employment since before I was even furloughed. We knew it was coming so I began looking in late February.
Since that date I've applied to (63) positions. Everything from Project Management to AutoCAD drafting. I've had a total of (5) interviews. (3) of which I'm still in the process of which is annoying because just when I think that's the last round of interviews it's "OK, now you have to interview with the baby sister of our HR's neighbors brothers uncle"
The oddest thing I've had to do (and I totally bombed it) was I made it to the third round of interviews with a company and then they said I had a 'video' portion to do. They sent me (6) questions and I had to record my responses via video....not an interaction with a person like a zoom or Microsoft Teams.....just a video response. One take. Once you pressed record on their website that was your response. It was so awkward. I heard back from them a week after that as the told me I didn't make the final cut.
I've been using two cover letters. One for Project Manager positions and one for AutoCAD drafting positions. I think they're 'ok' and I suppose they do the trick but then again I'm only 5/63 so maybe not :lol Although an HR Rep. from a Company I interviewed with last week told me that (5) interviews out of (then 58) applications was actually pretty good. She said people can apply to over 100 positions before ever hearing a peep.
I'm trying not to get to bent out of shape about not finding a job yet. I would have thought with my experience and background I'd be employed by now but it's been tough. I suppose the job market is so saturated these companies really can just take their time and pick the cream of the crop. I've been humbled a bit because prior to this I really thought that I was one of those top tier people....not trying to be all cocky or whatever but just basing that off of feedback I receive......so....not landing a job yet has really gotten me in a bummed out mood. I'm trying to stay positive but it's getting tougher as each week passes and I'm not collecting a paycheck and relying on unemployment.
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My belief is that 90% of LinkedIn job posting are never filled via LinkedIn applicants. Probably higher. Seeing my company have jobs show up there that I know are already filled or not going to be filled, and my experience of only getting 2 responses (other than canned FOAD rejection emails) of the 50+ I applied there (with several where my CV lined up perfectly with the job description) in my job search 3 years ago ... yeah, public job postings are the worst way to job hunt.
You're exactly right. When I was hired from contractor to full-time at my current job they still publicly posted the position for 5 days and just fast-tracked my interview hiring process. I know that's the policy for my company (maybe even law) but to your point most of those jobs have someone in mind when being posted.
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I suppose the job market is so saturated these companies really can just take their time and pick the cream of the crop.
Maybe, but I know my company is in a hiring freeze due to covid. We have a position we really NEED filled in Amsterdam since we can't travel and my teammate there left almost a year ago now. We finally got the approval to rehire that position back in May and once we started reviewing resumes, the company put a hold on it even though it's a really needed position to be filled. I'd imagine a lot of other companies just simply can't hire right now for a various amount of reasons. It's definitely a tough market out there. I know you are trying hard, something will come of it eventually.
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I suppose the job market is so saturated these companies really can just take their time and pick the cream of the crop.
Maybe, but I know my company is in a hiring freeze due to covid. We have a position we really NEED filled in Amsterdam since we can't travel and my teammate there left almost a year ago now. We finally got the approval to rehire that position back in May and once we started reviewing resumes, the company put a hold on it even though it's a really needed position to be filled. I'd imagine a lot of other companies just simply can't hire right now for a various amount of reasons. It's definitely a tough market out there. I know you are trying hard, something will come of it eventually.
There is that aspect as well. But then the annoying thing is why even advertise the position if you know you aren’t actively hiring?
I’m sure something will hit here soon for me. At least, I’m hoping.
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I'm trying not to get to bent out of shape about not finding a job yet. I would have thought with my experience and background I'd be employed by now but it's been tough. I suppose the job market is so saturated these companies really can just take their time and pick the cream of the crop. I've been humbled a bit because prior to this I really thought that I was one of those top tier people....not trying to be all cocky or whatever but just basing that off of feedback I receive......so....not landing a job yet has really gotten me in a bummed out mood. I'm trying to stay positive but it's getting tougher as each week passes and I'm not collecting a paycheck and relying on unemployment.
I went through this phase when the market crashed in '08, '09. I was working in commercial real estate, so you can imagine...
It's a humbling, at times humiliating experience. Interestingly, a therapist equated it with dating. He asked me if I was attracted to every woman I meet, and did I think they were instantly attracted to me. It's a lot like that; there are so many applicants to many of these jobs that it's often an inexact science that boils down to little, intangible things. It's supremely frustrating to think your livlihood, your career, the well-being of your family might be tied to a 'vibe' someone gets from a video of yours, but that's exactly what happens at times.
(Protip, though; while you are smart to have different letter templates, make sure you customize even the ones within the general job description. Some "key words" from the position will be important universally, but read the job description the company publishes closely and make sure you tailor the phraseology to that as well. When a company is getting 100's of resumes for each position the initial screen is by algorithm, and even if you have the skillset, if it doesn't get picked up you're as out of luck as the people that didn't have it at all.)
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(Protip, though; while you are smart to have different letter templates, make sure you customize even the ones within the general job description. Some "key words" from the position will be important universally, but read the job description the company publishes closely and make sure you tailor the phraseology to that as well. When a company is getting 100's of resumes for each position the initial screen is by algorithm, and even if you have the skillset, if it doesn't get picked up you're as out of luck as the people that didn't have it at all.)
You beat me to it, I was actually just going to recommend a little customization for each cover letter, both from an algorithm perspective and to match the "vibe" of the posting (if that makes sense) for when it sees human eyes. Different jobs may require similar skill sets, but may emphasize some parts over others, and you can tailor your letter to that.
I don't know how much this applies across the board, but it may be worth remembering: a recruiter I've been talking to said that hiring is usually pretty slow in the summer, as kids are out of school and its vacation time (even this summer, people are still taking time away). As such, filling positions (and even posting them) can be rather slow before Labor Day.
I've got a bit of whiplash from my search...late Friday afternoon I sent of my application for a "unicorn" position, and I now have a conversation with their HR set for tomorrow afternoon. This means I'm pretty much starting with the highest-stakes opportunity first but it is what it is (it's the HR person, so I think it's primarily about logistics and basics, but I'm still going to spend today brushing up on my interviewing techniques & notes).
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(Protip, though; while you are smart to have different letter templates, make sure you customize even the ones within the general job description. Some "key words" from the position will be important universally, but read the job description the company publishes closely and make sure you tailor the phraseology to that as well. When a company is getting 100's of resumes for each position the initial screen is by algorithm, and even if you have the skillset, if it doesn't get picked up you're as out of luck as the people that didn't have it at all.)
You beat me to it, I was actually just going to recommend a little customization for each cover letter, both from an algorithm perspective and to match the "vibe" of the posting (if that makes sense) for when it sees human eyes. Different jobs may require similar skill sets, but may emphasize some parts over others, and you can tailor your letter to that.
I don't know how much this applies across the board, but it may be worth remembering: a recruiter I've been talking to said that hiring is usually pretty slow in the summer, as kids are out of school and its vacation time (even this summer, people are still taking time away). As such, filling positions (and even posting them) can be rather slow before Labor Day.
I've got a bit of whiplash from my search...late Friday afternoon I sent of my application for a "unicorn" position, and I now have a conversation with their HR set for tomorrow afternoon. This means I'm pretty much starting with the highest-stakes opportunity first but it is what it is (it's the HR person, so I think it's primarily about logistics and basics, but I'm still going to spend today brushing up on my interviewing techniques & notes).
For sure. In my hunt 3 years ago, the summer was an absolute slog. Then, the week right before Labour Day, it was like a lightswitch was flicked - the number of call-backs and email responses I got was demonstrably higher. Also, vis-a-vis the algorithms that are used to filter resumes... someone told me that for online submissions, and/or cover letters, they'd had a "blank" text file, or a "blank" page on your resume or cover letter that was just a string of text (in white and small font so that it wasn't immediately noticeable to humans) with as many 'catch' words and phrases applicable to the job/company/industry. I firmly believe the absolute hardest part of a job search nowadays is to get a set of human eyes on your resume and/or cover letter.
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100% on that last point. Without question.
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I have another Microsoft Teams interview with the Regional HR VP with STERIS tomorrow. This will be my 5th interview with them. At some point I'm gonna crack and just be blunt and say 'Am I getting this F%cking job or not' :lol I get wanting to make sure you hire the right person but c'mon.....
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I have another Microsoft Teams interview with the Regional HR VP with STERIS tomorrow. This will be my 5th interview with them. At some point I'm gonna crack and just be blunt and say 'Am I getting this F%cking job or not' :lol I get wanting to make sure you hire the right person but c'mon.....
"We've been dancing long enough. It's time to fuck".
I had 5 rounds of interviews when I landed the current company I'm with. That's the deal these days my friend, maybe even moreso now since nobody is meeting face to face.
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The most interviews I've done for a position was four, but it was an hour and a half from where I was living at the time, so that kinda sucked (I would've relocated if I landed it). It was down to two of us, and they picked the other candidate. Oh well.
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I have another Microsoft Teams interview with the Regional HR VP with STERIS tomorrow. This will be my 5th interview with them. At some point I'm gonna crack and just be blunt and say 'Am I getting this F%cking job or not' :lol I get wanting to make sure you hire the right person but c'mon.....
Good luck, boss!
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Yea good luck for sure! The long interview process does seem a bit normal these days, as much as that sucks. I'd hate it too, but I'm rooting for you Gary!
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Five rounds of interviews? Christ, there are executive hires that don't get vetted that heavily! That said...I wonder if these were all folks you would have talked to consecutively in a normal interview, but between the scheduling clusterfuck of Covid and the concurrent goat rodeo of getting a bunch of peoples' schedules aligned during the summer, this was the only way to do it. But five distinct ones just seems like they really could have done it better. And honestly, it's not very respectful of your time. But, it is what it is...
I had my HR screen this afternoon, it went pretty well. The rep I talked to will forward my materials and her positive recommendation to the COO, who will the decide if she wants to initiate the interview process with me. It is a bit of an odd one, the position has been open for a while, and it's basically taking a load off the COO's plate. But, these programs are her babies, and she is very reluctant to let just anybody take over some of her responsibilities. As such, it's not really a competitive process, it's more about whether or not I'm a good fit and the COO wants to bring me on. So if it doesn't work out, I really have no choice but to take it personally. :lol
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Five rounds of interviews? Christ, there are executive hires that don't get vetted that heavily!
To be fair....the first two I had were 'unofficial' because the position hadn't been posted yet. I am friends with a guy who works with STERIS and he knew the spot was going to be posted so he forwarded my information to the Area Manager I would be working under should I be hired. That man called me....we spoke for nearly two hours during which he told me that when the position opened I'd have to 'officially' apply and begin the process but basically I had just done the 3rd interview in that process. I also spoke with one of his peers at length before officially applying.
So I applied, did the first two initial HR interviews......met in person with the guy I spoke to originally which was another two hour meeting.....and now I'm speaking with the Regional VP of HR today. I've been told the last step is a video meeting with their boss. After that I'd either be offered the spot or told not gonna happen. So, I have hopefully one more after today....and hopefully soon after.
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Just got the call today for a second round interview that will I think be tomorrow afternoon. Would eventually involve a relocation to Florida after things settle down and they reopen their office down there, but the quoted salary range represents a 36%-56% range over what I make now.
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Five rounds of interviews? Christ, there are executive hires that don't get vetted that heavily!
To be fair....the first two I had were 'unofficial' because the position hadn't been posted yet. I am friends with a guy who works with STERIS and he knew the spot was going to be posted so he forwarded my information to the Area Manager I would be working under should I be hired. That man called me....we spoke for nearly two hours during which he told me that when the position opened I'd have to 'officially' apply and begin the process but basically I had just done the 3rd interview in that process. I also spoke with one of his peers at length before officially applying.
So I applied, did the first two initial HR interviews......met in person with the guy I spoke to originally which was another two hour meeting.....and now I'm speaking with the Regional VP of HR today. I've been told the last step is a video meeting with their boss. After that I'd either be offered the spot or told not gonna happen. So, I have hopefully one more after today....and hopefully soon after.
Ok that makes a lot more sense! I can't imagine HR would want to sign off on a hire that was made based on a couple of pseudo-interviews before the posting even existed. Good luck in the last steps, hopefully the opinions of the folks you've talked to carry weight with the higher-ups.
Just got the call today for a second round interview that will I think be tomorrow afternoon. Would eventually involve a relocation to Florida after things settle down and they reopen their office down there, but the quoted salary range represents a 36%-56% range over what I make now.
Sounds like a helluva opportunity. But...Florida? It's a lot harder to pre-game shows if you're all the way down there! Of course, this assumes it ever does calm down in FL....
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Just got the call today for a second round interview that will I think be tomorrow afternoon. Would eventually involve a relocation to Florida after things settle down and they reopen their office down there, but the quoted salary range represents a 36%-56% range over what I make now.
Where in the F-L-A?
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Just got the call today for a second round interview that will I think be tomorrow afternoon. Would eventually involve a relocation to Florida after things settle down and they reopen their office down there, but the quoted salary range represents a 36%-56% range over what I make now.
Sounds like a helluva opportunity. But...Florida? It's a lot harder to pre-game shows if you're all the way down there! Of course, this assumes it ever does calm down in FL....
Yeah, I'm guessing I'd be able to continue working from home for a while before I'd actually have to look into moving down there. Florida's not my ideal place to live by any stretch, but the combination of the raise and the much lower cost of living effectively doubles my salary. And worst case scenario, my boss is in the NY office so potentially the ability to move back home and into a new role after a couple years.
Just got the call today for a second round interview that will I think be tomorrow afternoon. Would eventually involve a relocation to Florida after things settle down and they reopen their office down there, but the quoted salary range represents a 36%-56% range over what I make now.
Where in the F-L-A?
Orlando area.
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No state income tax in florida, that raise plus the cost of living and no tax would be a huge gain. Florida has good weather and Orlando is at least still a spot touring bands will visit (compared to like Miami which is a dead zone for metal concerts) plus there's plenty of other things to do there and nicer weather.
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If you're cool with an hour or two drive - Melbourne and Daytona on the east coast, Ft. Meyers or Tampa on the west - there's basically no one you can't see in FLA. I'm consistently blown away when I look on setlist.fm at the bands that have played in those places; and you'll get all the name tours in Orlando.
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If you're cool with an hour or two drive - Melbourne and Daytona on the east coast, Ft. Meyers or Tampa on the west - there's basically no one you can't see in FLA. I'm consistently blown away when I look on setlist.fm at the bands that have played in those places; and you'll get all the name tours in Orlando.
Wasn't DT historically known for skipping Florida? I don't think you'll get as much as the NYC area, but that spot in Florida is not a dead zone for concerts.
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Heard back on the HR screen from the other day, we're moving to the next step, which is a familiarization call with the COO. If that goes well, then it's the "real" interview, several successive zoom interviews and a presentation. It will be interesting to see if this could be a good fit, so much depends on the COO's expectations. And I may need to figure out how to present on something proprietary in sufficient detail to still be meaningful...
I also confirmed that I am underpaid. This is definitely a step up in level, but when I asked about salary range, she apologized for how low it was (being that they aren't far removed form being a start-up, etc.)..and it was still 5-15% above my current salary.
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Just received the offer from STERIS! :metal Holy cow....what a relief. Benefits package has been sent to me to peruse tonight and I’ll officially accept the position on a phone call tomorrow morning. Start date to be September 14th.
It feels weird to think about starting a new job but I’m pumped. Just pulled in to the golf course to play a quick (9) holes by myself and reflect a bit.
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awesome, congrats :metal :metal :metal
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Congratulations!
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That's awesome Gary!
I think my round two went well. They'll talk to a few more people and discuss internally, should hear in about a week.
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Congratulations Gary, that's great! And it's cool that you have a little time before things start, where you can still goof off without the stress of the situation hanging over you.
Axeman, you said this was a big step up in salary, does it also get you the level up that you weren't getting in your current gig?
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Yessir. Fingers crossed. I felt bad I didn't have more questions, but I was really able to cover them with the two guys I talked to in my first round interview. Turns out the guy I talked to today knows/knew a couple people I used to work with (one a colleague at my current company, the other worked for our biggest client and closely with my team), hopefully that gives me an edge.
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Really excited for the good news for all of you. :) :tup
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Just received the offer from STERIS! :metal Holy cow....what a relief. Benefits package has been sent to me to peruse tonight and I’ll officially accept the position on a phone call tomorrow morning. Start date to be September 14th.
It feels weird to think about starting a new job but I’m pumped. Just pulled in to the golf course to play a quick (9) holes by myself and reflect a bit.
Great news! Welcome to STERIS! It's been a great place for me to work for the last 8 years.
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Just received the offer from STERIS! :metal Holy cow....what a relief. Benefits package has been sent to me to peruse tonight and I’ll officially accept the position on a phone call tomorrow morning. Start date to be September 14th.
It feels weird to think about starting a new job but I’m pumped. Just pulled in to the golf course to play a quick (9) holes by myself and reflect a bit.
Great news! Welcome to STERIS! It's been a great place for me to work for the last 8 years.
Thanks! I’m pumped and looking forward to it.
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No state income tax in florida, that raise plus the cost of living and no tax would be a huge gain. Florida has good weather and Orlando is at least still a spot touring bands will visit (compared to like Miami which is a dead zone for metal concerts) plus there's plenty of other things to do there and nicer weather.
Orlando is a really nice area and you're right about the shows. I used to drive to Orlando to see shows there.
If you're cool with an hour or two drive - Melbourne and Daytona on the east coast, Ft. Meyers or Tampa on the west - there's basically no one you can't see in FLA. I'm consistently blown away when I look on setlist.fm at the bands that have played in those places; and you'll get all the name tours in Orlando.
Wasn't DT historically known for skipping Florida? I don't think you'll get as much as the NYC area, but that spot in Florida is not a dead zone for concerts.
Yea the would skip florida a bunch, I only saw them twice there at it was during the 2003 summer tour and the gigantour.
Just received the offer from STERIS! :metal Holy cow....what a relief. Benefits package has been sent to me to peruse tonight and I’ll officially accept the position on a phone call tomorrow morning. Start date to be September 14th.
It feels weird to think about starting a new job but I’m pumped. Just pulled in to the golf course to play a quick (9) holes by myself and reflect a bit.
Congrats!
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So you can't make this stuff up.......literally twenty minutes after I formerly accepted the position at STERIS this morning my boss calls me and says she's submitting paperwork to bring me off of furlough :lol You have to be kidding me...right?
So, I told her that it'd benefit me more if she kept me on furlough and then outright released me in November so I could get the severance package from them. She knows I have been in talks with Steris...and I told her that I expected an offer soon (didn't want to tell her just yet) We talked some more and she basically said she'd keep me on furlough for as long as she could but could make no promises.
If she calls me back then I'll have to report and turn my two weeks in but I'm really trying to play this to where I get all my PTO cashed out and the severance. I spoke with the guy who's position I'm taking at Steris about the company and the position and am real encouraged. The only reason he left is because he has a 2 year old kid and they just had twins so he needed a job where there was no travel at all. He couldn't say good enough things about the company, people I'll be working with and so on....so that is comforting.
I just thought it was funny that after all these months of just nothing....no calls....no work....then boom...I get an offer AND my job tries to call me back :lol
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That's the way shit goes my man. It'd be great if your current company can ride you into the ground, just to get that extra bump in PTO/severance. Prolly not gonna happen though.
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That's the way shit goes my man. It'd be great if your current company can ride you into the ground, just to get that extra bump in PTO/severance. Prolly not gonna happen though.
Nope. She told me she'd definitely not submit me for these (2) spots they had open but that our company just released $90 million dollars to get some projects back going and that she thinks they'll want more people back soon.
If that happens.....I mean, the thing that sucks but the angle I have to play is I return to my job and immediately put in my two weeks. I have to save as much time as I can for my kids to remain on medical benefits and it has to give me time to find medical coverage for the time in between me leaving my now job and when my benefits kick in on the next one which is mid October.
I all but begged her not to put me in that position and to call back all the other PM's before me. We shall see how it goes.
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Congrats, Gary! :victorydance:
And one other thing, while I have your attention: STOP PUTTING PARENTHESIS AROUND NUMBERS! IT IS NOT CORRECT, AND IS ANNOYING. STOP IT! NOW!
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STOP PUTTING PARENTHESIS AROUND NUMBERS! IT IS NOT CORRECT, AND IS ANNOYING. STOP IT! NOW!
Wait? How's it not correct? I've done it like (1,769) times
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Parentheses are just not used that way. That's like randomly deciding to put periods around numbers. Or commas. Or any other punctuation mark. They're just numbers. You don't do that. Why would you think you should?
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You wouldn't put (parenthesis) around words; why would you around (numbers)? :biggrin:
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You wouldn't put (parenthesis) around words; why would you around (numbers)? :biggrin:
What about around punctuation marks? For example:
( .Y. )
( ! )
😁
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Parentheses are just not used that way. That's like randomly deciding to put periods around numbers. Or commas. Or any other punctuation mark. They're just numbers. You don't do that. Why would you think you should?
I always thought it helped the number stick out more....that it was more concise in a way. I never contemplated if it was the (correct) thing to do
I applied to 63 different positions before finally getting hired.
I applied to (63) different positions before finally getting hired.
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I applied to 63 different positions before finally getting hired.
I applied to (63) different positions before finally getting hired.
The first is correct.
The second is not.
Yes, the second way does make the numbers stick out more. But not in a good way. In more of a "geez, this guy doesn't know punctuation rules. I wonder if he puts apostrophes on every word that ends in 's' and mixes up there/their/they're all the time, too?" kind of way.
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I applied to 63 different positions before finally getting hired.
I applied to (63) different positions before finally getting hired.
The first is correct.
The second is not.
Yes, the second way does make the numbers stick out more. But not in a good way. In more of a "geez, this guy doesn't know punctuation rules. I wonder if he puts apostrophes on every word that ends in 's' and mixes up there/their/they're all the time, too?" kind of way.
I may now shift to just using the bold tool if I want to type a number like 57 or 183. Something inside me compels me to distinguish them for some reason.
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I didn't know people out parentheses around numbers. That's a stupid thing to do.
On the topic of unnecessary punctuation, my wife's grandma always writes greeting cards with the person's name in quotation marks. Happy Birthday "Susan" or Merry Christmas "Jane". Makes no sense at all to me.
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You may identify as "Susan," but I think we all know better. ;)
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I didn't know people out parentheses around numbers. That's a stupid thing to do.
On the topic of unnecessary punctuation, my wife's grandma always writes greeting cards with the person's name in quotation marks. Happy Birthday "Susan" or Merry Christmas "Jane". Makes no sense at all to me.
The way some older people use punctuation is baffling to me. I see people who comment,,,,,,like this,,,,why,,,would you do that,,,,? I mean, I get they didn't grow up with computers, but surely they didn't learn to write that way.
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You may identify as "Susan," but I think we all know better. ;)
That's always what it makes me think! "I know you're really Kathy, "Susan". You're not fooling anyone."
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Just continuing the conversation that I'm late to, technically speaking, you do not use actual numerals until you get to ten, and you do not start sentences with numerals either.
Right (or at least, more formal):
Ten people criticized Gary for his use of parenthesis.
I have done it myself three times that I can remember.
There are 26 different rules for writing numbers in a sentence.
Wrong (or at least, frowned on):
10 people criticized Gary for his use of parenthesis.
I have done it myself 3 times that I can remember.
For me, someone that writes a fair amount of formal letters, I generally write numbers below ten as "six (6)" or "eight (8)". I either use "25" or "twenty-five" depending on the context; in a main paragraph or in a reference to days (as in "we will be paid in .... days"), I use "twenty-five (25)", in a bullet, a prices, or dates, "25".
Oh, and I like commas. The more the merrier.
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Oh, and I like commas. The more the merrier.
We’ve noticed.
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So to tie this all together, how did you write numbers on your resume? :biggrin:
I confess to an overuse of ellipsis, but I don't use them in my cover letter or CV...
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That's awesome Gary!
I think my round two went well. They'll talk to a few more people and discuss internally, should hear in about a week.
impatience intensifies
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Got an email from the recruiter, I'll speak with him on the phone after lunch but it looks like they're going to make an offer :o :metal :millahhhh
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Got an email from the recruiter, I'll speak with him on the phone after lunch but it looks like they're going to make an offer :o :metal :millahhhh
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F1264.gif&hash=17f3e082af478f7eec4851819bfa577cec452911)
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:metal :metal :metal
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I'm of course now both completely distracted and de-motivated from being able to focus at all on my work for today :lol
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Got an email from the recruiter, I'll speak with him on the phone after lunch but it looks like they're going to make an offer :o :metal :millahhhh
Sweet!
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Spoke with the recruiter, basically just some general background before they prep an offer. We confirmed the original salary range that was quoted to me, as well as that they'd offer some kind of relocation assistance. Talked a little bit about bonuses (both annual and sign-on), but absolutely nothing specific. I think he's going to set up a call with me and them soon to try to iron out the details ahead of their first official offer.
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Nice, Bill! Happy for you!!!!
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That's great, Bill! I'll hold of on cracking a cold one in your honor until you get the official offer, I'm a little superstitious like that...but I'll have it on standby.
Finally had my call with my potential boss this morning. Being the "right hand to the COO" would be a very different role for me, but I could still get my hands in a lot of R&D stuff, and it could establish me in cell & gene therapy without having to take a step backwards into doing full time product development again...basically, it could be a 2-3 year shortcut vs. what I was figuring my path would be. The position still seems like a good fit, and I think she and I got on well and understood one another, but we'll see for sure in a few days, when we see whether I proceed on to the full interview.
That said, sending in another application on Monday...
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Got a call from the recruiter this morning. Evidently the CEO of the company that would be hiring me went and closed every open rec they had at the same time, and invited managers to go through the formal justification process again if they really need the role. The recruiter talked to my final round interviewer (would be three rungs up from me), and the role they want me for is still a high priority for them and he thinks it'll just be another week or two before they can get the rec open again. Frustrating, but hopefully just a bump in the road.
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Got a call from the recruiter this morning. Evidently the CEO of the company that would be hiring me went and closed every open rec they had at the same time, and invited managers to go through the formal justification process again if they really need the role. The recruiter talked to my final round interviewer (would be three rungs up from me), and the role they want me for is still a high priority for them and he thinks it'll just be another week or two before they can get the rec open again. Frustrating, but hopefully just a bump in the road.
I know that's frustrating but stay patient.....at least you know they're interested in you and they still want to fill the spot.
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Got a call from the recruiter this morning. Evidently the CEO of the company that would be hiring me went and closed every open rec they had at the same time, and invited managers to go through the formal justification process again if they really need the role. The recruiter talked to my final round interviewer (would be three rungs up from me), and the role they want me for is still a high priority for them and he thinks it'll just be another week or two before they can get the rec open again. Frustrating, but hopefully just a bump in the road.
This level of corporate tomfoolery makes my head hurt. That said I hope it all sorts out. Caught up a few pages and glad you're out there and getting looks at some good offers!
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Got a call from the recruiter this morning. Evidently the CEO of the company that would be hiring me went and closed every open rec they had at the same time, and invited managers to go through the formal justification process again if they really need the role. The recruiter talked to my final round interviewer (would be three rungs up from me), and the role they want me for is still a high priority for them and he thinks it'll just be another week or two before they can get the rec open again. Frustrating, but hopefully just a bump in the road.
That's frustrating and annoying, but that's also exactly what my company has done. We had all the approvals to hire someone and then they shut everything down and are in a phase of re-evaluating every open position. Hopefully they don't take their sweet time like my company is doing, they are re-evaluating essentially everything it seems, which is including lots of layoffs (not affecting me thankfully).
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That is certainly obnoxious. But...the position is seen as a priority, you're the person they've decided on for it, and you have someone who is fairly high in the company advocating for it. So it's the least bad it could be, like you said it's hopefully just a bump in the road.
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Alright folks, I've got useful info to share. I was speaking with a recruiter this morning (follow-up regarding a position that didn't come through), and I asked him how to better get on the radar of recruiters, and he gave me the following insights and advice re: LinkedIn:
-Be active on LinkedIn in some form every day (add new connections, like posts, make comments). When recruiters do searches, the algorithm prioritizes results by who it thinks is most likely to respond, and it estimates that by how engaged you are on LinkedIn
-Join relevant groups. It is activity (as described in the first bullet), but there is more to it. Apparently it is pretty expensive for recruiters to send messages on LinkedIn, but it is free within groups. So if you're already in a group with a recruiter, they are more likely to notice you, and it's of no cost to them to ping you
-Add "Looking for my next opportunity" or something similar to your profile. Specifically, the "looking for" bit is critical, because recruiters use it in their searches
-Include the "acronym salad" somewhere, as this will help you be found in searches
-There's a setting that indicates to recruiters that you are open to hearing about new positions. Enable that. And can can also add the #opentowork frame to your pic/profile, that also makes it free for recruiters to message you
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And on my search, I finally got feedback on my call with he COO, and that went sufficiently well that I'm on to the next round (though it's still early, this is another 1:1 call). But if that goes well, I should be on to a proper interview.
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Second-round call in the books, went well, I should hopefully be on to the virtual "on-site" interview next. Today's interviewer works in Business Dev/Ops, so I was expecting to get (and was preparing for) lots of stuff around contracts, alliance management, etc., but instead he had actually held the posted role previously (before it was officially created), so it made sense for him to talk to me. So I prepped wrong, but it was fine. And, I'm now very prepared for when I eventually get the business questions!
This is probably nothing revolutionary for anyone, but in my recent experiences and talking with colleagues who are also about interviewing, there are a few questions that are recurring:
-Why are you interested in this company/role? And why now?
-What in your career are you most proud of?
-What would someone with whom you've clashed say about you? What kind of people do you not get along with?
Axeman, you hear more?
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How do you answer that very last question? It's an obviously pandering and potentially unsatisfying answer to say "I get along with everyone!", but in the work environment, it may be true. I know for me, I suck it up. Clashes are few and far between, and only seem to happen when there's an ethics/compliance problem, or when the team needs to all be working in tandem and someone tries to hot dog. I personally do not like inflexible "we've always done it this way" people, but I can't change them, and it's my job to make it happen.
What are others' experiences?
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Try to be the better person in clashes. Try to understand their thought process, try to see how they interpret yours, and be the better person in your interactions with them.
I had a coworker who was such an asshole. Everyone hated that person and for good reason, this person was extremely difficult to work with and would rat you out if you didn't follow their process. My way of handling it? I tried to be friendly to him, no one liked him or chatted with him socially, so I did. I needed to really, I relied on this person a lot so I needed for my own sanity on the job to be on good terms with him. It took some time but eventually this person started liking me and treated me better than anyone else and slowly I didn't need to follow his insane processes that made no sense and he would actually talk good about me to management. Meanwhile I totally hated the guy still but just understood there was a social aspect to him that I need to win over.
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People who are openly and publicly selfish, or rude, or aggressive, or disrespectful... and worse of all, leaders that carry all of the above qualities.
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I answer the questions pretty honestly/bluntly, because it makes it clear what I'm about, and where the interviewer stands. If they don't like my answers, then it's a bad fit and I wouldn't want the job.
My answers:
-Who I don't get along with: People who are more interested in maintaining their fiefdoms than adapting; those who withhold information; people who are motivated by making sure they can't be blamed if something doesn't work, rather than reaching for success
-What people I've clashed with would say: That I'm not good at staying in my lane. On this one, I also talk about how I've managed to turn some adversaries into key allies, through assuming positive intent, identifying mutual interests, and stripping away bad assumptions (but I note that some people are so entrenched that all I can do is manage around them, or make it uncomfortable for them to keep being uncooperative).
Perhaps those answers are a little bit cocky? I can live with it if they are, I would rather know immediately if there's going to be a poor cultural fit straightaway. And anything I'm looking at, my job is going to be making things happen, it's good to get the sense of whether the culture will allow me to do that.
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No news yet. It was two Thursdays ago that the recruiter gave me the news about them needing to reopen the rec and they thought it would take a week or two, so I'll text the recruiter tomorrow afternoon if I haven't heard anything.
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No news yet. It was two Thursdays ago that the recruiter gave me the news about them needing to reopen the rec and they thought it would take a week or two, so I'll text the recruiter tomorrow afternoon if I haven't heard anything.
FWIW, the recruiter I talked to said this week is still slow, sorry of the summer hangover and kids going back to school, but next week should be full speed ahead. It will vary from company to company, but that's the overall trend.
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So, folks who have done video interviews, are you going full suit? Or pantless? Or somewhere in between? On a related note, I'm on to the full interview...
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Texted the recruiter yesterday, he said he hadn't heard anything this week and he'd follow up today and get me an update.
So, folks who have done video interviews, are you going full suit? Or pantless? Or somewhere in between? On a related note, I'm on to the full interview...
When I did the first round interview for this job I went full suit, including dress shoes. I went shirt and tie + gym shorts for a big client demo/pitch Zoom for my current job, but I was only a small part of that and could have discreetly enough turned off my video if I needed to get up.
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I went with panties.
Wait, I might have read that wrong...
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I'm a firm believer in your wardrobe and your mindset being in sync and synergizing one another, so I would resist the ever-so-justifiable urge to go less formal in any aspect.
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I'm a firm believer in your wardrobe and your mindset being in sync and synergizing one another, so I would resist the ever-so-justifiable urge to go less formal in any aspect.
Agreed; having worked from home for a while now (well before COVID hit), if there's anything of importance going on at work, I make sure I'm showered and ready, as if in person.
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Wow, that's dedication to... something.
For me, the best part about working from home is that I get out of bed, make some breakfast/coffee, then stumble down to my desk to log in. Showering and/or getting dressed are strictly optional, and I rarely exercise that option. I've gone days without getting out of my "jammies" (which are a T-shirt and sweats), and I honestly don't even think about it anymore.
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I'm pretty sure I've been wearing pajama pants exclusively for six months now.
I mean, not the same pair. I still change and do laundry.
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I usually shower at some point during the work day :lol
But my job is not formal and I don't deal with customers or clients. We already had a no dress code policy. I have my meetings with my boss with both of us in PJs. I'd never do that for an interview though or if I had a meeting with someone higher than my boss.
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To clarify, my comment was only meant to say, if it is a formal event, resist the urge to go informal from the waist down. If a regular workday is wfh, go as informal as you please!
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When the lockdown first came down and many folks transitioned to working from home, there were memes everywhere about people doing Zoom calls without pants, even a few examples online of people literally getting caught with their pants down. I gotta be honest, I wouldn't have even guessed that this was a thing. I have kids, so hanging around the house with no pants on isn't really an option, but are there really that many people who do? And in what universe is it okay to attend a business meeting with no pants on? Sure, the odds of anyone finding out a pretty low, but they're not zero. Put some clothes on when you get on a video call.
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I live alone and I still don't walk around the house without pants/shorts on
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I think there's something to the idea of establishing a work environment. I have worked out the house far longer than COVID, and I've learned long ago that I'm an EMPLOYEE first and foremost, and for any other employee, the difference between dealing with me and someone in an office should be no different. Yes, with COVID we've had to make compromises, but if I won't have a dog barking on an in-office call, I won't have a dog barking from my home office call.
And that goes to wardrobe. I wouldn't wear a t-shirt and wrestling shorts to an office even if I could. I have a position of semi-authority and I am asked in many cases to be the "conscience" or "mediator" in my business, balancing differing concerns. I have to earn the respect of the people I deal with, and as much as I love Iron Maiden, wearing the latest tour shirt to a video conference where I'm driving the decisions on a $100M bid I think undermines my credibility.
There's also mindset; it's different for everyone I know, but for me, I want to and need to be in "work mode". I'm an officer of the company, and so my decisions sometimes carry weight. Making those decisions starts well before the call/video conference, and in part, for me, that includes wardrobe. I don't wear a suit every day in my basement, nor even a collared shirt, but if I have a day that is involved in the more corporate aspects of my job, I make sure I'm showered and have a shirt on that I would wear in an office was I there. I wear pants (though I will wear shorts more often than not, though again, they are not ratty gym shorts; I would not be embarrassed to wear them at a work outing for example).
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I usually shower at some point during the work day week :lol
Fix'd.
And, also what Bill said.
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Mindset I can understand. "Work mode" as a state of mind, a state of being. I guess I got jaded on that at some point. I hadn't really thought about it that way, but it seems to be true.
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I think there's something to the idea of establishing a work environment. I have worked out the house far longer than COVID, and I've learned long ago that I'm an EMPLOYEE first and foremost, and for any other employee, the difference between dealing with me and someone in an office should be no different. Yes, with COVID we've had to make compromises, but if I won't have a dog barking on an in-office call, I won't have a dog barking from my home office call.
And that goes to wardrobe. I wouldn't wear a t-shirt and wrestling shorts to an office even if I could. I have a position of semi-authority and I am asked in many cases to be the "conscience" or "mediator" in my business, balancing differing concerns. I have to earn the respect of the people I deal with, and as much as I love Iron Maiden, wearing the latest tour shirt to a video conference where I'm driving the decisions on a $100M bid I think undermines my credibility.
There's also mindset; it's different for everyone I know, but for me, I want to and need to be in "work mode". I'm an officer of the company, and so my decisions sometimes carry weight. Making those decisions starts well before the call/video conference, and in part, for me, that includes wardrobe. I don't wear a suit every day in my basement, nor even a collared shirt, but if I have a day that is involved in the more corporate aspects of my job, I make sure I'm showered and have a shirt on that I would wear in an office was I there. I wear pants (though I will wear shorts more often than not, though again, they are not ratty gym shorts; I would not be embarrassed to wear them at a work outing for example).
Got a dress in slacks and a dress shirt to get in the proper "work mode" required to post on the forums from home ;)
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Back on a payroll today! Driving to Kansas City to meet my boss and pick up my work laptop.....then spending a couple days there to visit a couple job sites
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I think there's something to the idea of establishing a work environment. I have worked out the house far longer than COVID, and I've learned long ago that I'm an EMPLOYEE first and foremost, and for any other employee, the difference between dealing with me and someone in an office should be no different. Yes, with COVID we've had to make compromises, but if I won't have a dog barking on an in-office call, I won't have a dog barking from my home office call.
And that goes to wardrobe. I wouldn't wear a t-shirt and wrestling shorts to an office even if I could. I have a position of semi-authority and I am asked in many cases to be the "conscience" or "mediator" in my business, balancing differing concerns. I have to earn the respect of the people I deal with, and as much as I love Iron Maiden, wearing the latest tour shirt to a video conference where I'm driving the decisions on a $100M bid I think undermines my credibility.
There's also mindset; it's different for everyone I know, but for me, I want to and need to be in "work mode". I'm an officer of the company, and so my decisions sometimes carry weight. Making those decisions starts well before the call/video conference, and in part, for me, that includes wardrobe. I don't wear a suit every day in my basement, nor even a collared shirt, but if I have a day that is involved in the more corporate aspects of my job, I make sure I'm showered and have a shirt on that I would wear in an office was I there. I wear pants (though I will wear shorts more often than not, though again, they are not ratty gym shorts; I would not be embarrassed to wear them at a work outing for example).
Got a dress in slacks and a dress shirt to get in the proper "work mode" required to post on the forums from home ;)
:)
I go the opposite way. My wife asked "honey, why are your pants down?" "Oh, just going to post on a prog-rock band's forum about politics!"
"Have fun!"
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The pairing of mindset and clothes is definitely a thing for me, but it cuts both ways. In the before times, if I had a presentation to C-suite or to a big forum, dressing sharp made me feel the part and like I was projecting being "polished" the way I wanted to, and I just felt sharper. On the other side of things, back when dress code was business casual with jeans ok on Fridays, I did my best, most innovative thinking on Fridays; it's when I had my good ideas, and was able to shift how I was relating to a problem. I was effective the rest of the week, but felt more "corporate", stilted, and my imagination didn't flow as well. When we moved sites (and concurrently went to permanent "casual Friday" dress), I found that I had better ideas and my strategizing was more efficient/effective...despite a significant downgrade in how much I liked the environment (urban high rise with well-appointed office with a big window to suburban open-floor plan office building).
I'll definitely interview in a full suit, but looking at corporate culture with respect to clothes is part of my process, I want to be able to be my most effective, present self when I'm working, and clothes impact that in both directions.
Back on a payroll today! Driving to Kansas City to meet my boss and pick up my work laptop.....then spending a couple days there to visit a couple job sites
Congratulations!!
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That's interesting that you noticed a difference in your creativeness based on how you dressed. I bet that probably went into the reasoning why my company (tech company that is VERY big on being thoughtful and creative) is full on no dress code. I guess maybe the freedom of expression in your outfit can lead to freedom of expression in other ways?
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That's interesting that you noticed a difference in your creativeness based on how you dressed. I bet that probably went into the reasoning why my company (tech company that is VERY big on being thoughtful and creative) is full on no dress code. I guess maybe the freedom of expression in your outfit can lead to freedom of expression in other ways?
At least for me, I don't think it's about expression. I think it's of of two things (or maybe a combination):
-With business casual, there is a small part of my brain that is aware that I don't like how I look or feel in khakis, and I think that might keep my mind from going all-in the creative stuff, sort of like a buzzing fly can make concentration a challenge
-I learned to think in a truly strategic and occasionally out-of-the-box way in grad school, and that was wearing exclusively comfortable/durable clothes. So maybe some part of my brain associates those?
That said, I could believe that a looser culture (in this respect) is better for encouraging creativity and new approaches, it sets the atmosphere.
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I had that mindset about so dressing for work a little bit early on, but it's gone to the wayside. Between covid 19 and a bunch of other major things that have happened in my personal and prodessional life, I just now take great pride in being able to somehow get all of my work done on time and at a high quality throughout the day, and don't have this lack to worry too much about any other insecurities. I don't care if somebody sees me in a collared chart or a t-shirt on zoom as I know that person understands my work speaks for itself these last six months.
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So here's another question I got during a recent interview, which caught me a bit off-guard:
"What did you do to prepare for this call?"
It's an interesting twist on a behavioral interview question, because those are normal about something fully in the past, whereas this was present tense, bordering on meta. I think she was looking to get a sense of how (and how much) I prepare for important things, and how much I try to understand something before opening my mouth. And maybe how seriously I was taking things (which is a big thing for her). And as much as it surprised me, it wasn't a "gotcha" question, I think it was a way for her to understand some very important things about me quite quickly; it was also later in the conversation, after we'd established a rapport, so it wasn't intended to throw me off balance. But still...keep in mind that this is a question you could be asked.
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Mind sharing what you do to prepare then?
As someone who hasn't been on an interview in 6+ years, I guess my thought would be to do research online of the company, maybe ask myself and pretend to answer typical interview questions, jot down my own questions for them, if I knew someone with experience in the company or the type of position then give them a call.... what else are good preparation tips?
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So here's another question I got during a recent interview, which caught me a bit off-guard:
"What did you do to prepare for this call?"
It's an interesting twist on a behavioral interview question, because those are normal about something fully in the past, whereas this was present tense, bordering on meta. I think she was looking to get a sense of how (and how much) I prepare for important things, and how much I try to understand something before opening my mouth. And maybe how seriously I was taking things (which is a big thing for her). And as much as it surprised me, it wasn't a "gotcha" question, I think it was a way for her to understand some very important things about me quite quickly; it was also later in the conversation, after we'd established a rapport, so it wasn't intended to throw me off balance. But still...keep in mind that this is a question you could be asked.
For the job I have now, I wrote down all the questions I had about the position and company, and then I researched all of them. The ones that I couldn't find answers to are the ones I brought up in my interview. I also recorded myself answering about 30 questions that I thought could be asked in the interview, and I played that back to myself on a non-stop loop for the day leading up to the interview (including the drive to the interview). I'd recite the responses alongside the recording like I was listening to a song. It made it really easy to not freeze up or drop unwanted "ums" and "likes" during the interview.
I don't know if I'd actually give that response though.
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Mind sharing what you do to prepare then?
As someone who hasn't been on an interview in 6+ years, I guess my thought would be to do research online of the company, maybe ask myself and pretend to answer typical interview questions, jot down my own questions for them, if I knew someone with experience in the company or the type of position then give them a call.... what else are good preparation tips?
This call was the preliminary phone interview with the hiring manager (after passing the phone interview). What I answered was that I read all of the patient-facing information on their website (as it's a biotech focusing on rare diseases), read their corporate deck, and watched a couple of interviews with the CEO on YouTube. I also said that I had thought about some of my own high-level questions to assess whether I thought this could be a good fit.
My full preparation goes a bit beyond that, though of course will vary based on what stage the interview is:
-Looking at the LinkedIn profiles of the interviewers
-Thinking through reasonable questions I could get, whether behavioral, technical or philosophical (i write these down ahead of time, and them usually spend the hour or so before the call scribbling out my thoughts, so it's fresh on my mind, and not over-rehearsed)
-Coming up with my own big list of questions, trying to gauge things like culture, individual empowerment, stability of the business, etc.
-Re-read my CV & cover letter, to remind myself what I said ( :biggrin: ) but also to remind myself of what I'm about and where I'm strong
-I remind myself that this is a conversation, not a cross-examination, grilling or judgment. And it's as much about whether I want to work with them as they want to work with me.
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Good stuff, thanks for sharing.
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For the job I have now, I wrote down all the questions I had about the position and company, and then I researched all of them. The ones that I couldn't find answers to are the ones I brought up in my interview.
That is an excellent point... Don't waste interview time on questions that could have been answered with a quick Google search. It's not a good use of time, and it makes you look like you didn't give enough of a shit to put even cursory effort up front.
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So here's another question I got during a recent interview, which caught me a bit off-guard:
"What did you do to prepare for this call?"
It's an interesting twist on a behavioral interview question, because those are normal about something fully in the past, whereas this was present tense, bordering on meta. I think she was looking to get a sense of how (and how much) I prepare for important things, and how much I try to understand something before opening my mouth. And maybe how seriously I was taking things (which is a big thing for her). And as much as it surprised me, it wasn't a "gotcha" question, I think it was a way for her to understand some very important things about me quite quickly; it was also later in the conversation, after we'd established a rapport, so it wasn't intended to throw me off balance. But still...keep in mind that this is a question you could be asked.
See, that's a question that would throw me, because I over think things. I would answer as truthfully as I could, but I'm almost certain I would wrap myself around the axle of "well, she knows I'm bullshitting, because I asked this question" or "wait; I answered that other question like THIS, is she calling me on that?". I'm my own worst enemy in situations like that, because I have to sometimes remind myself that the value, the connection, is in the conversation itself, not the answers.
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Good stuff, thanks for sharing.
I forgot another big one:
-Re-read the job description thoroughly a few times. Can guide how you approach the conversation, what Austin's your ask, and can also be a good way to figure out if there is a disconnect between the hiring manager and the HR person who may have written the listing about what the position truly entails
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It is also VERY common for job descriptions / position descriptions to not be accurate, for several reasons. It could be that the person who wrote it is different from the person you will be working for, and has a very different understanding of what the job entails. It could be that it is simply outdated because the job has evolved. It could be because they don't know and copy/pasted from what they thought was maybe the most similar position. Lots of reasons. (True story: I had a case a few years back where we needed to look through a stack of job descriptions for various positions throughout a very large employer, and some of them were so old that you could tell from looking at them that they were printed on a dot matrix printer; it was safe to say that many of them were not accurate descriptions of what the current job entailed, even if they might have been very accurate at the time they were created)
Bottom line: It's never a bad idea to ask questions about the job description, and how closely it may match the day-to-day duties you can actually expect to perform. You may hear that it is a good indication, or that it is simply a baseline expectation, but is fluid and flexible, or that it is outdated and the day-to-day actually looks much different. It can lead to some good discussion and information-sharing that you might not otherwise get.
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So here's another question I got during a recent interview, which caught me a bit off-guard:
"What did you do to prepare for this call?"
It's an interesting twist on a behavioral interview question, because those are normal about something fully in the past, whereas this was present tense, bordering on meta. I think she was looking to get a sense of how (and how much) I prepare for important things, and how much I try to understand something before opening my mouth. And maybe how seriously I was taking things (which is a big thing for her). And as much as it surprised me, it wasn't a "gotcha" question, I think it was a way for her to understand some very important things about me quite quickly; it was also later in the conversation, after we'd established a rapport, so it wasn't intended to throw me off balance. But still...keep in mind that this is a question you could be asked.
See, that's a question that would throw me, because I over think things. I would answer as truthfully as I could, but I'm almost certain I would wrap myself around the axle of "well, she knows I'm bullshitting, because I asked this question" or "wait; I answered that other question like THIS, is she calling me on that?". I'm my own worst enemy in situations like that, because I have to sometimes remind myself that the value, the connection, is in the conversation itself, not the answers.
Are you Norm Peterson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgouWHo4RhU&ab_channel=owlofcreamcheese)?
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Just ran through my interview presentation with my wife. At the end, she asked "So what was your point in all of this?". >:( :lol Not that it was incomprehensible, but more, why was I saying what I said, and that it came off more like I was selling my idea, instead of selling myself. I have a hard time with self-promotion, and tend to walk to walk and not bother that much with the talk. I like to demonstrate competence and have that be enough. And I always say "we", even if something was my idea or I did all the work. I can re-orient myself before tomorrow morning, right?
EDIT: I hate rehearsing presentations far more than actually giving them
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So here's another question I got during a recent interview, which caught me a bit off-guard:
"What did you do to prepare for this call?"
It's an interesting twist on a behavioral interview question, because those are normal about something fully in the past, whereas this was present tense, bordering on meta. I think she was looking to get a sense of how (and how much) I prepare for important things, and how much I try to understand something before opening my mouth. And maybe how seriously I was taking things (which is a big thing for her). And as much as it surprised me, it wasn't a "gotcha" question, I think it was a way for her to understand some very important things about me quite quickly; it was also later in the conversation, after we'd established a rapport, so it wasn't intended to throw me off balance. But still...keep in mind that this is a question you could be asked.
See, that's a question that would throw me, because I over think things. I would answer as truthfully as I could, but I'm almost certain I would wrap myself around the axle of "well, she knows I'm bullshitting, because I asked this question" or "wait; I answered that other question like THIS, is she calling me on that?". I'm my own worst enemy in situations like that, because I have to sometimes remind myself that the value, the connection, is in the conversation itself, not the answers.
Are you Norm Peterson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgouWHo4RhU&ab_channel=owlofcreamcheese)?
Up until the "knick-knack paddy-whack" part, pretty much, yup.
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I know this is for resumes, and not job interviews, but I've recently posted another job and it's reminding me of some trends I wish to see go away, quickly.
1. #readytowork - I don't want to see any hashtags on your resume, and certainly not one that should be implied by the fact that I have your damn resume attached to a position you applied for.
2. "Authorized to work in the US for any employer" - Again, why the fuck do I have your resume if this is not the case?
3. Preferred pronouns in header - Look, I'm all for calling someone whatever they wish, but pronouns do not need to be up there with name, phone number, and email, ESPECIALLY when they are the pronouns you know damn well I'd use by default in the first place.
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I know this is for resumes, and not job interviews, but I've recently posted another job and it's reminding me of some trends I wish to see go away, quickly.
1. #readytowork - I don't want to see any hashtags on your resume, and certainly not one that should be implied by the fact that I have your damn resume attached to a position you applied for.
#wtf. A fucking LinkedIn hashtag on an actual resume? That is something LinkedIn came up with to help recruiters find candidates on their site. Do people somehow think it holds magical power outside of LinkenIn?
2. "Authorized to work in the US for any employer" - Again, why the fuck do I have your resume if this is not the case?
This one is a little more justified, even I get asked this in the course of getting screened. I think a lot of places have been burned by getting a good way into an interview/hiring process only to discover that the person wasn't eligible for hire. I don't think it's necessary, but it's no worse than "references available upon request".
3. Preferred pronouns in header - Look, I'm all for calling someone whatever they wish, but pronouns do not need to be up there with name, phone number, and email, ESPECIALLY when they are the pronouns you know damn well I'd use by default in the first place.
This strikes me as a uniquely bad idea to put on there, from the point of view of the candidate. Anything demographic you offer up about yourself is an opportunity for unconscious bias to creep in. Age, ethnicity, sex, religion, or in this case gender/pronouns. Nothing good can come from this, unless you're applying somewhere that involves social work. As a candidate, I want an employer to see my accomplishments and history for what they are, without the tint of a demographic lens. As an employer, the less I know about the candidates demographics, the better, as I'm aware of how much unconscious bias can creep in, and I want the best person for the job (and I don't want to be a part of perpetuating inequalities).
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I had (most) of my biotech interview yesterday. I'd give myself about an 8.5, with individual interviews ranging from a 7.5 to a 9.5. The boss had stuff come up and so I still have to have another call with here (it would normally have been my last interview of the day). The irritating thing was that I had a 30 minute window for my presentation...about 20 minutes to present and 10 minutes for Q&A. But a couple of key folks were late and we couldn't start until eight minutes late...and my presentation was 22 minutes. So, there was no time for questions, and it kind of gives the feel that I can't manage time, even though it was out of my control. And the boss had to drop before my final slide, so she left without a sense of how much longer I was going (and she missed the "punchline" of the presentation). Definitely frustrating, especially as it was the first thing on the day's agenda. It probably bothers me more than it bothers them, but still....
Time to go write some thank you emails, which includes giving someone some follow-up on a question where I couldn't remember the specifics.
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I asked my daughter about this (she's a 19-year-old "woke" college student) and her response to the third one: "I wouldn't want to work at any company that would have a problem with that." I guess, but I've got too much real life experience that not every job can be a perfect confluence of "my passion" and "my morals" and "my politics". I need to work, I need a job. If my company isn't the most woke in the world, I can live, and so I'm not going to undermine my chances by that kind of statement.
On the other side, I don't think it's bigotry or -phobia to see that and ask the question, "is this going to be a team player, or is this a person that's going to make every event, decision, opportunity into a political statement?" "Work" is not "Facebook" or "Twitter". If I'm hiring an engineer or a administrative assistant or a legal intern, I'm looking for someone to - on company time - do engineering, or administration, or legal work, not be a political operative.
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I asked my daughter about this (she's a 19-year-old "woke" college student) and her response to the third one: "I wouldn't want to work at any company that would have a problem with that." I guess, but I've got too much real life experience that not every job can be a perfect confluence of "my passion" and "my morals" and "my politics". I need to work, I need a job. If my company isn't the most woke in the world, I can live, and so I'm not going to undermine my chances by that kind of statement.
What it comes down to is what millahh said combined what you said about being "woke". If someone is requesting pronouns you wouldn't normally use/assume then I can see it being somewhat justified, though I still don't think that's the best place for that.
It is really when Manly Manliman is applying and has to put in there "he/him". It just screams, "LOOK HOW WOKE I AM!".
And I understand your daughter's concerns about not wanting to work for a company that cares about it, but just so my comments aren't misconstrued it's worth noting that none of my points would keep me from potentially moving forward with a good candidate, I just find them off-putting.
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I'm not inclined to see it as throwing down a gauntlet of wokeness (unless there is other stuff in their application that would back that up), it's just a changing of norms towards being more inclusive. But it's still a distraction in this context. And even if a hiring manager has no conscious problem with it, it's still going to be an opportunity for unconscious bias to creep in (even if the person is cis/het/conforming all around, it is still likely to emphasize that the person is young and so might bias the manager to see them as less experienced than they are).
There is very clear research that the identical resume, just changing the sex, ethnicity or age of the applicant, will be received quite differently by reviewers. So why put anything out there that could give the bias more to work with?
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By the way, minor point, but to be clear, my daughter said THE ARGUMENT is "that I wouldn't want to work at any company..." Not that she is actually that morally strident (she is, after all, my kid! :)).
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Kids are so cute when they're young and idealistic.
Seriously though, I remember saying things like "This is who I am, and I don't care about anyone who has a problem with it." Then I grew up and understood that the world does not bend your will and whim. You learn to live in the world. It's great to have your personal beliefs and convictions, but when it comes time to get a job and pay the bills, saying stuff like "I would never work for a company that won't call me <preferred pronoun>" is just stupid. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but it's true. We all pick our battles, and the choice between having a job and not having a job because you decided that you want to be called something that most people still don't "get" is stupid.
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Kids are so cute when they're young and idealistic.
;D :tup
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Well, holy shit. Offer incoming on the interview I had yesterday!
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Congrats good sir!
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Tear 'em up!
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Yay, Millahh!!!! Congrats!
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Well, holy shit. Offer incoming on the interview I had yesterday!
:metal :metal :metal congrats!
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Well, holy shit. Offer incoming on the interview I had yesterday!
Nice Work!!! :tup
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Thanks all! My head is still sort of spinning from it. I had my follow-up with the COO last night, and at the end of the call she said she wanted to make me an offer. I had always envisioned it coming via email from HR and so it caught me completely off guard. I didn't know this at the time, but they had their debrief about half an hour after my interview ended, so she already had everyone else's perspectives in-hand. I guess I knew I was in good shape where there was a topic I spoke about and she responded with "ok, now you've won me over", but I still wasn't expecting things to go the way they did.
Now comes the comp discussion. It will be...interesting. Moving from a big company to a small company, but making a jump in title. I might not get what I'd ideally like, but it's also something of a dream job, with the opportunity to carve out my own niche and potentially be a part of leadership for the long term. Plus the financial benefits that come with that. Not looking forward to this part of it, but I'll most likely survive...
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but I'll most likely survive...
By the grace of god above, everyone will survive.
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rawwwwwwwwrrrrrrrr!!!!!
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/data:image/jpeg;base64,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)
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I asked my daughter about this (she's a 19-year-old "woke" college student) and her response to the third one: "I wouldn't want to work at any company that would have a problem with that." I guess, but I've got too much real life experience that not every job can be a perfect confluence of "my passion" and "my morals" and "my politics". I need to work, I need a job. If my company isn't the most woke in the world, I can live, and so I'm not going to undermine my chances by that kind of statement.
What it comes down to is what millahh said combined what you said about being "woke". If someone is requesting pronouns you wouldn't normally use/assume then I can see it being somewhat justified, though I still don't think that's the best place for that.
This is fair. Like when you see "Roger (she/her)", it's probably a good thing they gave you a heads up.
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Oh... and awesome-sauce millahh! Lay the smack down on that comp plan. "You pay me this fuckin salary, or I bust your fuckin kneecaps!". Or something like that.
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Not really any interview post, but figured it might fit here...
The founder of the company I work for who left after he sold the company to a very large well known fortune 50 company is apparently starting up a new company (not in the same field, but focusing on tech still) and looks like a few of the top engineers here who have been here longer than almost anyone who is still around are leaving to go work with him again. The guy has a track record now of starting companies before selling them for lots of money. I miss the way my company used to be ran as well when he was CEO. Makes me want to jump ship as well... but they are wayyyy too small and only have like 4 open positions for nothing that relates to what I bring to the table. However, makes me think I should keep my eyes open if I start seeing people from the operations side (my branch) flock over.
Now that I think about it, twice I've flocked with others who left for another role and brought trusted coworkers with them, both times to great benefits to my career. I guess that goes along with the "who you know" thing, but also why it's good not to burn bridges. Maybe in a couple years I'll be able to get in on that start up, who knows.
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I think going into a salary negotiation might actually be more stressful than interviewing. Their offer is a little above what I was told the range for the position is, and so I feel kind of guilty asking for more. And yet, I'm probably worth more, and a trusted colleague thinks I could probably move the needle 5-10%. When it comes to salary, it's so hard to break the conditioning of "be grateful for what you're given", when it should be "feel comfortable asking for your worth". Sigh.
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I think going into a salary negotiation might actually be more stressful than interviewing. Their offer is a little above what I was told the range for the position is, and so I feel kind of guilty asking for more. And yet, I'm probably worth more, and a trusted colleague thinks I could probably move the needle 5-10%. When it comes to salary, it's so hard to break the conditioning of "be grateful for what you're given", when it should be "feel comfortable asking for your worth". Sigh.
A small piece of advice on this from someone who does a lot of hiring...yes, you should absolutely tell them how much you think you are worth. But understand also that if you price yourself too aggressively (meaning too high) you risk leaving them with the impression that if you did take the position you'd be working for a lot less money than you wanted and that makes you a flawed candidate because people who feel they're underpaid are much more likely to seek higher compensation elsewhere while they are in your employ.
I'll just use some numbers from my most recent hire - I was hiring an entry-level I.T. guy for day-to-day help desk support and a bit of light server work - basically downloading and installing specific Microsoft updates and rebooting servers all day. The kind of work I could train the janitor to do in about 15 minutes. We advertised the position as "entry level I.T. position" and I received a fair amount of resumes, almost all of them way, way overqualified. But there were a couple of young(ish) students so I brought them in first.
The first kid comes in and he's got a suit and tie on and he's very clean-cut. After talking with him a while I think he's probably the perfect candidate, but then I ask him what he's looking for in terms of compensation and he deadpans: $80,000 :lol I let out a little laugh but he was dead serious. He was also instantly disqualified I was looking to pay someone maybe $25/hour which is about $52,000.
Next guy that came in wasn't quite as clean cut but when I asked him how much he wanted he said "I know it's entry level so I was hoping it would be at least $20/hour"
He's been with me for two years now and he's making $27.50/hour and says he's a "lifer" with this company now :biggrin:
The moral of the story is, of course, don't oversell yourself. The minute that first kid blurted out $80,000 hiring him was out of the question.
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If I was in that position (and to some degree, I have been with my existing company and role - ie, not during an external hiring process), I would simply state that I wouldn't want either of us to feel short-changed (you underpaid; them over-paying) ... that I'm committed to the role and company, but not at the expense of being significantly under-valued. Something along those lines.
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I'm certainly not going to do anything silly or out-of-range for the role/region. The logic I'm going to use is that my soon-to-be-former employer had very generous equity grants, so even though the base is a good increase, I'd actually be taking in less in total comps in the new role (which is a higher title and more responsibility) than in my old one. And I'm really getting the sense that it's reasonable to negotiate in the 5-10% range, but beyond that you risk looking like a loon. I think my ask may be for about 8%...which I'm not sure if they can meet, as it's a much smaller company, but I'd think they could at least do something.
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Absolutely reasonable. :tup
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Good luck! I'm with you that the salary negotiation is more stressful than waiting for an offer sometimes. I talked myself out of even negotiating an offer early this year and just passed on it because I thought there was no way they'd go as high as I was wanting. Maybe should have tried, but I think it was the best choice in the end to pass.
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Good luck! I'm with you that the salary negotiation is more stressful than waiting for an offer sometimes. I talked myself out of even negotiating an offer early this year and just passed on it because I thought there was no way they'd go as high as I was wanting. Maybe should have tried, but I think it was the best choice in the end to pass.
I'll admit there is a little bit of feeling that I'm bring greedy... These are not small numbers. But still, if I don't ask, there's no way I'll get it. And bonus and future salary hinges on this, so it is consequential.
I think I'm making my request tomorrow afternoon, fingers crossed...
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I'll admit there is a little bit of feeling that I'm bring greedy... These are not small numbers. But still, if I don't ask, there's no way I'll get it. And bonus and future salary hinges on this, so it is consequential.
I think I'm making my request tomorrow afternoon, fingers crossed...
millahh.....the job I took and that I've been at for three weeks now.....when they offered me the position it was a 38.7% pay increase...to the dime. My jaw figuratively hit the ground because I never in a million years thought I'd be in the tier of pay that they offered me. But I still attempted to negotiate for more. Now, I didn't get it :lol but I still countered back in the off chance they were just throwing that number out there to begin the negotiations. There's a respectful way to go about it to where they won't see you as greedy and as only doing your due diligence as a valued and talented employee.
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Here's a question for you guys.
Wednesday of last week (23rd) I interviewed a guy, and of all my interviews he was the candidate I was most excited about, but I had several potential people I'd be happy with. When I had initially called to set up the interview I left a message and he called me back after he finished his current job for the day.
Friday, after finishing up interviews I emailed him to say what I liked about what he might bring to the team and that I wanted to have some preliminary discussion on what compensation might look like. Monday morning I follow up with a call and voicemail.
Tuesday morning I get the following back on my original email:
"Good Morning Nick
So sorry for the delay my phone broke and its been a nightmare dealing with the insurance but I finally got one. Can I give you a call later today?
Best,
-Redacted-"
I reply that I was sorry to hear about the phone, but that it would be fine to call and gave my cell number. Tuesday has come and gone and I have not heard from him. My initial response is that I should just be fully prepared to move on since if he was truly interested he would have absolutely followed up with me on the timeline he set. But then I also wonder why he would bother responding to the email at all if he wasn't interested?
Thoughts?
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I wouldn't jump to conclusions. There are many reasonable explanations as to why he didn't/couldn't call. Send him a note, give him a deadline to respond/call, explaining that you need to fill the role, and move on to other candidates before they become unavailable.
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I'm a little reluctant to weigh in here, because I certainly do not want to sway Nick, not knowing the totality of the situation, but... I have a slightly different take. He should find a way. If I needed to make an important call, I have any of 15 phones within 20 minutes of me. My personal cell, my work cell, my home phone, my office phone, my wife/two daughters/two stepsons... and I haven't even touched other friends and family there, nor have I even mentioned email. Radio silence right out the gate is NOT a good sign.
Look, I get that we're (presumably) not talking about life-and-death issues here, but let's not forget here that we're not talking about "friends" or "partners"; we're talking about someone that we're going to pay good money to to provide a service back on OUR terms. I'm all for making the work experience as fun and rewarding an experience as is reasonable, but not - but NEVER - at the expense of the fundamental nature of the relationship: that person providing a service, at pay, for me or my organization.
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I'll admit there is a little bit of feeling that I'm bring greedy... These are not small numbers. But still, if I don't ask, there's no way I'll get it. And bonus and future salary hinges on this, so it is consequential.
I think I'm making my request tomorrow afternoon, fingers crossed...
millahh.....the job I took and that I've been at for three weeks now.....when they offered me the position it was a 38.7% pay increase...to the dime. My jaw figuratively hit the ground because I never in a million years thought I'd be in the tier of pay that they offered me. But I still attempted to negotiate for more. Now, I didn't get it :lol but I still countered back in the off chance they were just throwing that number out there to begin the negotiations. There's a respectful way to go about it to where they won't see you as greedy and as only doing your due diligence as a valued and talented employee.
Holy shit, that's awesome!! Especially coming off covid-ployment.
For me, they gave me a range up front (with managing expectations, they are a small company of more limited means), then the opening offer was actually $5k above the top end. So I think I have pretty good idea of where they stand, but I think there's room for at least a little more.
I wouldn't jump to conclusions. There are many reasonable explanations as to why he didn't/couldn't call. Send him a note, give him a deadline to respond/call, explaining that you need to fill the role, and move on to other candidates before they become unavailable.
That's where I'm landing on this. It certainly doesn't give me the warm fuzzies, but sometimes crazy shit happens in life (especially now). I think the deadline is a good balance, and watching carefully as things unfold. Of course, I'm also a softie when it comes to this stuff...
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On the salary negotiation issue: I'm on my third job since graduating law school in 2001. The first job, I negotiated a bit, but I don't remember the specifics. The second, in 2004, was a bit more interesting. I was moving to a significantly less expensive area, and their initial offer was significantly MORE than I had been making previously, so I was a bit conflicted about asking for more and didn't want to blow an already-generous offer. I asked, but was told immediately that the offer was firm and there was no room on salary. I instead pivoted and asked whether there was room in the budget for a moving stipend since I was relocating to take the job, and they were able to do that and more than covered my moving expenses. Matt, I know you know this, but I would try to come up with a potential list of alternatives to ask for if the salary itself is not as flexible as you might like.
[My present job doesn't really enter into the discussion, since salary ranges for each position within the state are set and not negotiable at all. They brought me in at the very top of the range into which I was hired, so there was no room to negotiate, but that was fine under the circumstances.]
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On the salary negotiation issue: I'm on my third job since graduating law school in 2001. The first job, I negotiated a bit, but I don't remember the specifics. The second, in 2004, was a bit more interesting. I was moving to a significantly less expensive area, and their initial offer was significantly MORE than I had been making previously, so I was a bit conflicted about asking for more and didn't want to blow an already-generous offer. I asked, but was told immediately that the offer was firm and there was no room on salary. I instead pivoted and asked whether there was room in the budget for a moving stipend since I was relocating to take the job, and they were able to do that and more than covered my moving expenses. Matt, I know you know this, but I would try to come up with a potential list of alternatives to ask for if the salary itself is not as flexible as you might like.
[My present job doesn't really enter into the discussion, since salary ranges for each position within the state are set and not negotiable at all. They brought me in at the very top of the range into which I was hired, so there was no room to negotiate, but that was fine under the circumstances.]
On Bosk's point, I already know that if I found myself looking at jobs my main point of negotiation would be vacation time, not salary. Working at a corporate funeral home has its drawbacks for sure, but one of the benefits is that vacation time is above what you can expect of the industry in general. I now generate 24 paid-days off a year and have five holidays that I either have off, or get an additional day off if I work during them. I really love my trips and my time away, and cannot see me accepting any position that would try to limit me to a stern 10-days off a year.
I wouldn't jump to conclusions. There are many reasonable explanations as to why he didn't/couldn't call. Send him a note, give him a deadline to respond/call, explaining that you need to fill the role, and move on to other candidates before they become unavailable.
That's where I'm landing on this. It certainly doesn't give me the warm fuzzies, but sometimes crazy shit happens in life (especially now). I think the deadline is a good balance, and watching carefully as things unfold. Of course, I'm also a softie when it comes to this stuff...
So I did email the candidate saying I had not heard back from him as expected, and that I needed to have a call from him today to ensure his consideration before moving forward with other candidates. He wrote me back quite quickly to let me know he had tried to call but the call had gone immediately to voicemail (he also called me Chris in the email for some reason).
So again, while I am happy about the quick response, I am confused why someone in his position wouldn't follow up with an additional call, just leave a voicemail, or email me to tell me he was unable to reach me.
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I'll admit there is a little bit of feeling that I'm bring greedy... These are not small numbers. But still, if I don't ask, there's no way I'll get it. And bonus and future salary hinges on this, so it is consequential.
I think I'm making my request tomorrow afternoon, fingers crossed...
millahh.....the job I took and that I've been at for three weeks now.....when they offered me the position it was a 38.7% pay increase...to the dime. My jaw figuratively hit the ground because I never in a million years thought I'd be in the tier of pay that they offered me. But I still attempted to negotiate for more. Now, I didn't get it :lol but I still countered back in the off chance they were just throwing that number out there to begin the negotiations. There's a respectful way to go about it to where they won't see you as greedy and as only doing your due diligence as a valued and talented employee.
A bit to add on the current topic, not exactly regarding job-searching but regarding payment. I kept quiet about this because I didn't know it'll pan out, but I put in my two-week notice and a resignation letter on Sep 7th because of how our company steadily went to shit over the past few years and I suspected from gauging similar positions I was underpaid; I essentially had way more responsibilities than my position actually entails. In the beginning of the second week, one of the semi-big bosses approached me asking if I already had a job lined up (I hadn't anything set in stone, but I had a few connections in the industry which would've most probably allowed me to get another job), and asked me what would it take me to stay. I was really fed up with all that was going on in the company and asked for a senior engineer role and a 40% raise. I honestly thought he'll just walk away after that. :lol
Today they held a review board for me to see if I'm qualified for the senior role and after half an hour of grilling the board unanimously decided I passed. The position is effective come Oct 1st.
Sometimes it doesn't hurt to shoot for the stars I guess.
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I'll admit there is a little bit of feeling that I'm bring greedy... These are not small numbers. But still, if I don't ask, there's no way I'll get it. And bonus and future salary hinges on this, so it is consequential.
I think I'm making my request tomorrow afternoon, fingers crossed...
millahh.....the job I took and that I've been at for three weeks now.....when they offered me the position it was a 38.7% pay increase...to the dime. My jaw figuratively hit the ground because I never in a million years thought I'd be in the tier of pay that they offered me. But I still attempted to negotiate for more. Now, I didn't get it :lol but I still countered back in the off chance they were just throwing that number out there to begin the negotiations. There's a respectful way to go about it to where they won't see you as greedy and as only doing your due diligence as a valued and talented employee.
A bit to add on the current topic, not exactly regarding job-searching but regarding payment. I kept quiet about this because I didn't know it'll pan out, but I put in my two-week notice and a resignation letter on Sep 7th because of how our company steadily went to shit over the past few years and I suspected from gauging similar positions I was underpaid; I essentially had way more responsibilities than my position actually entails. In the beginning of the second week, one of the semi-big bosses approached me asking if I already had a job lined up (I hadn't anything set in stone, but I had a few connections in the industry which would've most probably allowed me to get another job), and asked me what would it take me to stay. I was really fed up with all that was going on in the company and asked for a senior engineer role and a 40% raise. I honestly thought he'll just walk away after that. :lol
Today they held a review board for me to see if I'm qualified for the senior role and after half an hour of grilling the board unanimously decided I passed. The position is effective come Oct 1st.
Sometimes it doesn't hurt to shoot for the stars I guess.
NICE!!! :metal
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That is awesome Ruslan. Though, it's a slippery slope of accepting a counter-offer. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. The latter because now (theoretically) the company knows they don't have to proactively offer you anything, they can wait until you 'quit', then offer you a generous reason to stay. Keep this in mind over the coming years... whether they proactively offer you any merit rewards, or advancement opportunities.
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That is awesome Ruslan. Though, it's a slippery slope of accepting a counter-offer. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. The latter because now (theoretically) the company knows they don't have to proactively offer you anything, they can wait until you 'quit', then offer you a generous reason to stay. Keep this in mind over the coming years... whether they proactively offer you any merit rewards, or advancement opportunities.
First off, that is just great news. There are so many warm fuzzies from all the success stories.
I thought about the counter-offer thing in this case, and it sounds like some of the usual caveats don't apply so much...there wasn't another offer from somewhere else that was on the table that you walked away from, so you haven't lost anything. And you won a major, role-defining change from your current employer, and they know you won't take shit from them going forward (after all, you were willing to walk away without a new job lined up, which is balls). And hey, if there's something about it that is still (or becomes) intolerable in a year or two, you still have a year at a higher title and salary under your belt that you could leverage into something else at another shop. I think you played it about as well as you could have, even if this wasn't what you envisioned when you first gave notice.
So I did email the candidate saying I had not heard back from him as expected, and that I needed to have a call from him today to ensure his consideration before moving forward with other candidates. He wrote me back quite quickly to let me know he had tried to call but the call had gone immediately to voicemail (he also called me Chris in the email for some reason).
:lol That's not strike three, but it's definitely a foul tip after a strike 2...
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It also seems just plain odd. Like he's trying to blow this opportunity on purpose, yet pretend that he's trying not to.
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The comment of ‘I called and it went straight to vmail’ smells fishy too. Yes, that shit happens sometimes. But when one NEEDS to make contact, leave a damn vmail, AND send a frickin text. I retract my previous statement. Judge him. He’s not your guy. If he’s this flaky when trying to earn the right to be your employee, he could be just as much or more of a flake once he is hired.
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If you call and it goes straight to voicemail, you leave a voicemail. Why wouldn't you? The person is on another call or for some other reason cannot talk to you right now. Do you want this job? Then leave a damned voicemail. Also, it's easy enough to check. Even if it went straight to voicemail, there will be a missed call from him.
Right, Chris?
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If you call and it goes straight to voicemail, you leave a voicemail. Why wouldn't you? The person is on another call or for some other reason cannot talk to you right now. Do you want this job? Then leave a damned voicemail. Also, it's easy enough to check. Even if it went straight to voicemail, there will be a missed call from him.
Right, Chris?
Not always, I've certainly had situations where the network/carrier glitched, and I just get a vmail pop out of nowhere, with no missed call.
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If you call and it goes straight to voicemail, you leave a voicemail. Why wouldn't you? The person is on another call or for some other reason cannot talk to you right now. Do you want this job? Then leave a damned voicemail. Also, it's easy enough to check. Even if it went straight to voicemail, there will be a missed call from him.
Right, Chris?
Not always, I've certainly had situations where the network/carrier glitched, and I just get a vmail pop out of nowhere, with no missed call.
Same here. In fact, I had it happen for one of the really phone interviews for the offer I got this week, and I thought the interviewer had just forgotten to call me.
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I don't know; I guess it's my GE days, or I'm just a dick generally, but in a work environment, I'm sort of a "make it happen" kind of guy. You find a way if you really want to make the connection, and if I'm hiring, I want people that "really want to make the connection". I suppose if a voicemail never comes up on their phone, there's only so much, but it's 2020, the age of connectivity. We seem to find ways of sending dick pics and memes on Facebook and spammity calamity phone calls; they never seem to have a problem getting through.
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The more I think about it, there more it seems like the guy is trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Was email not an option? Nor texting?
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First off, congrats Ruslan, that's awesome!
An update on my guy. I would have happily moved on if I didn't think the guy was the best of all that applied thus far, but here is where we are.
He did end up calling me last night and we had a good discussion, and while we didn't discuss this mishap specifically I honestly think because of his age (24) that he just didn't give any thought to not leaving a voicemail or checking in some other way. Not to say I'm happy about it, but I don't think it was malicious or game playing on his part. All that said at the end of the day I think he's asking for too much for me to make him an offer that will work out anyway, so it's all likely a moot point.
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First off, congrats Ruslan, that's awesome!
An update on my guy. I would have happily moved on if I didn't think the guy was the best of all that applied thus far, but here is where we are.
He did end up calling me last night and we had a good discussion, and while we didn't discuss this mishap specifically I honestly think because of his age (24) that he just didn't give any thought to not leaving a voicemail or checking in some other way. Not to say I'm happy about it, but I don't think it was malicious or game playing on his part. All that said at the end of the day I think he's asking for too much for me to make him an offer that will work out anyway, so it's all likely a moot point.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/JPQAAOSw7ApdRPmJ/s-l400.jpg)
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So, my attempt at negotiating didn't work at all :lol. Turns out I was already pegged to the top of the range on base and target. But... The yearly merit increase is one the order of 6-7% instead of the 2-3% I was used to, and promotion increases are ~10% instead of 8%. Plus the bonus target bumps up quickly and there are spot bonuses of stock. So, after about two years, I'll be ahead of where I thought I'd be if I'd gotten the bump I was negotiating for.
I was also reminded that I said this was the kind of company I wanted to work for, and how miserable I'd be at a big pharma... Which may have decreased my leverage in the end, but I think it's part of why I got a maximum offer straightaway.
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Thanks for all the congratulations guys, was away for a couple of days on a business trip and didn't check the forum at all. I appreciate it.
That is awesome Ruslan. Though, it's a slippery slope of accepting a counter-offer. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. The latter because now (theoretically) the company knows they don't have to proactively offer you anything, they can wait until you 'quit', then offer you a generous reason to stay. Keep this in mind over the coming years... whether they proactively offer you any merit rewards, or advancement opportunities.
That's fair. When I was thinking if I should accept it or not this was basically my line of thoughts:
And hey, if there's something about it that is still (or becomes) intolerable in a year or two, you still have a year at a higher title and salary under your belt that you could leverage into something else at another shop.
that if I decide to search for anything else in a couple of years, the experience in a senior position is going to be a huge help. I would've been worried that they would think I'm not loyal and begin to search for a replacement for me; however we are severely understaffed so I'm fairly sure this is not something I should be worried about right now.
I think you played it about as well as you could have, even if this wasn't what you envisioned when you first gave notice.
Yeah, I was pretty much mentally prepared to leave. I think that might've actually helped with the whole situation a bit. I wasn't bluffing the company into offering me more, I was just done with the whole thing, and I suppose it showed.
So, my attempt at negotiating didn't work at all :lol. Turns out I was already pegged to the top of the range on base and target. But... The yearly merit increase is one the order of 6-7% instead of the 2-3% I was used to, and promotion increases are ~10% instead of 8%. Plus the bonus target bumps up quickly and there are spot bonuses of stock. So, after about two years, I'll be ahead of where I thought I'd be if I'd gotten the bump I was negotiating for.
Sounds good, especially with that yearly merit increase!
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Received a call yesterday from the company I'm still technically furloughed from regarding the status of my position there. They were just confirming what I've already known and expected that my position is being eliminated effective two days ago, 10/7. But the cool part is:
I will receive one month of my regular pay as something they called 'Notification Pay'
Then two weeks after that I get a check that will be my PTO cash out....I had 117 hours of PTO still so that was a nice chunk of change.
THEN....I am receiving severance pay and I will say that it is MUCH higher than I ever anticipated. It was based off of time at the company (I was there close to 9 years) so when she told me the number I was like :omg: I'll get that amount broken into payments every two weeks until January 22nd
The cool thing is that my insurance from that company stays in effect until November 14th and my insurance from my new company will be effective this coming up Monday, so that was my largest concern the whole time that my old position would be eliminated prior to my new insurance going into effect....so them overlapping was a relief. The $$$ is a plus for sure and it'll help replenish some funds that we spent while I was on furlough since May. The plan is to just sock all this $$$ away for another rainy day.
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Rainy day is a funny name for Blues luxury box tickets :biggrin:
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Rainy day is a funny name for Blues luxury box tickets :biggrin:
I was thinking a new set of golf clubs :lol
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Rainy day is a funny name for Blues luxury box tickets :biggrin:
I was thinking a new set of golf clubs :lol
Brian.....you are reading my mind. I told myself that for my 45th birthday in January I was going to get a new set of clubs and do it right. Have my swing analyzed...get them sized and fitted.....the while nine yards. This will help me not feel as bad about spending the $$ when I do that. :lol
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That's awesome Gary, it's great so see how people land on their feet (and sometimes even positioned better than they were pre-Covid).
I've finally got some real clarity now. Signed my offer letter on Tuesday, and got my official notification that I'm being made redundant from the current gig yesterday afternoon (there's a little irony to this, 15 years ago today was my first day with the predecessor company, the only "career" job I've ever had). I've been in limbo for 16 months, and only now finally truly know what is going on. It's somehow both a major relief and anti-climactic at the same time.
One thing that will be interesting in how this plays out is when the exact last day is...as severance pays out 60 days later. What I got was "around the end of October"...but October 30 means severance would hit this tax year instead of next, whereas Nov 6 leaves no doubt that it would hit 2021 taxes. I think it should be Nov 6, but we'll see.
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Good news all around for both of ya! Gary, your situation sounds similar to mine a few years ago. When I saw the severance offer, I was like "gimme da pen and let me sign that fuckin thing!"
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I just applied for two jobs on Indeed. One of them had a 65 question survey and another a whopping 114 QUESTIONS! WTF is this crap? I've never had this many before. The questions were about personality and previous work experience. Some of the questions asked about the same thing. I hope there's a way to summarize all of these answers, I would think no worker has time to go through thousands of individual answers.
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I just applied for two jobs on Indeed. One of them had a 65 question survey and another a whopping 114 QUESTIONS! WTF is this crap? I've never had this many before. The questions were about personality and previous work experience. Some of the questions asked about the same thing. I hope there's a way to summarize all of these answers, I would think no worker has time to go through thousands of individual answers.
Im guessing no one sees those answers (at least not initially) and some algorithm spits out to the company some sort of breakdown of your answers to determine if you make it to the next stage or not, just a guess I have no experience with this.
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That would be my guess as well, but it seems kind of absurd. Maybe either a hyper-specialized job that would draw a lot of unqualified applicants, or something that would see a huge volume of applications. What kind of job?
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That would be my guess as well, but it seems kind of absurd. Maybe either a hyper-specialized job that would draw a lot of unqualified applicants, or something that would see a huge volume of applications. What kind of job?
Yea, I could see that as being a way to weed people out. "100+ questions just to apply? nvmd" is probably the mindset of many who are just throwing applications around.
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They ranged from software to customer service. I actually had one more since my post. Not so many questions, but still a waste of time.
And I hate when I upload a resume, then have to type the same information into some stupid web form. Just read the damn resume! What's the point of uploading it if I have to enter the same info by hand???
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Guaranteed there's some form of AI that decides if your resume makes it to a set of human eyes. Unless you're getting personal recommendations/referrals from people that know the hiring manager or HR recruiter, or unless it's a very small company, every resume is filtered thru some form of bot. Just look at every LI or Indeed job posting to see "731 Applicants", and there's no possible way humans are reviewing them all.
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So still no update on the job where they told me they wanted to make me an offer late in August. Meanwhile, I got contacted by another recruiter about a different opportunity today. This one wouldn't be quite as much of a jump in salary, and it would involve relocating to Los Angeles rather than Orlando. I think my ideal scenario here is to get them interested and hope it gives the previous people a kick in the ass to make me an offer already.
Meanwhile, I'm also in the process of hiring someone for the team I manage in my current job. I've interviewed two people so far, one who seems like an absolutely perfect fit, but the company dictates that I have to interview at least three candidates and one of them has to be gender diverse. Well, the only female candidate who made it past HR's pre-screening does not have the right background at all, so I guess I'm going to have to waste both her time and mine with a half hour phone interview.
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Looks like things are back on track with the Orlando job, may have at least the general details of an offer by the end of the week.
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Looks like things are back on track with the Orlando job, may have at least the general details of an offer by the end of the week.
Awesome! But again...Florida... What would the timeline look like to relocate, given covid considerations?
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So, something I've been thinking about recently is thank you notes. In my recent job search, I sent out thank you emails the next morning to all of my interviewers...but they'd already had an internal debrief after I'd finished interviewing that day, so there's no way they could have moved the needle (either because I said something good, or because I just didn't send one). Likewise, every time I've interviewed someone, either for my own department or for an adjacent one, debrief/feedback is at the end of that same day. I understand they are "what you're supposed to do", but in any situation I've been in, the kinetics are such that they wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. What are everyone else's experiences with these, from either side of the desk?
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Looks like things are back on track with the Orlando job, may have at least the general details of an offer by the end of the week.
Awesome! But again...Florida... What would the timeline look like to relocate, given covid considerations?
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So, something I've been thinking about recently is thank you notes. In my recent job search, I sent out thank you emails the next morning to all of my interviewers...but they'd already had an internal debrief after I'd finished interviewing that day, so there's no way they could have moved the needle (either because I said something good, or because I just didn't send one). Likewise, every time I've interviewed someone, either for my own department or for an adjacent one, debrief/feedback is at the end of that same day. I understand they are "what you're supposed to do", but in any situation I've been in, the kinetics are such that they wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. What are everyone else's experiences with these, from either side of the desk?
We touched on the relocation piece during my interviews. I told them that while I'm onboard with making the move, as long as Covid is still a crisis the way it is now and the offices are closed anyway I'd prefer to work from NJ. They seemed fine with that, but I'm sure it'll come up again before anything's official. I wasn't anticipating being back in the office for my current job before next summer, so I'm expecting I wouldn't move much before then.
Thank you notes are a funny thing. I hate writing them, especially when I've spoken with multiple different people and I have to make sure the different thank yous are dissimilar enough. But I've not gotten any in recent memory from people that I've interviewed. On one hand I don't mind because I don't think any needles would've been moved, but on the other hand, I'm annoyed that I'm dealing with writing them and others aren't :lol :lol
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My opinion - both as interviewee and interviewer - is that letters / emails in-and-of-themselves don't make a difference. But, it's noticed if/when they aren't sent.
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For me, it's similar to Jingle. Does sending it get me the job? Probably not. Do I want to take that chance, or be the guy that didn't send one? NOPE. Even if it's just for me, in my head, when I interview for real (not phone interviews), I send a HANDWRITTEN thank you that day. I know, I know "the mail"; they get that note well after 'election day' so to speak. But I want that message sent. I've learned in 30+ years of job hunting/searching that it's the little things, and who knows when I'm run across that person again.
(Example: I was with a small group within a bigger, international conglomerate. That conglomerate was buying a French company. My old boss - who I hadn't worked with in five or more years - called me and said "hey, got a friend who is going to "conglomerate" in that big deal. Are you willing to have lunch and just talk to him about "conglomerate"? If nothing else, he's a nice guy, you'll have a new friend." Sure. We make plans, and he calls me the day before and says "any problem if I bring a colleague; he's a lawyer, he may be of help to you, small payback for your help for me". Sure. Long story short, to do the deal, "conglomerate" threw my little business into the deal and so I became an employee of the French company. My new bosses boss? The lawyer I had lunch with. When a counsel opening came up during the integration, I walked in and the guy said "I was hoping you were interested; well, we've already had our interview (that lunch). Any questions?" I got the job and despite wanting very badly at first to go back to "conglomerate", I'm happy and have been here ever since.)
I take NOTHING for granted in job searches.
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For me, it's similar to Jingle. Does sending it get me the job? Probably not. Do I want to take that chance, or be the guy that didn't send one? NOPE. Even if it's just for me, in my head, when I interview for real (not phone interviews), I send a HANDWRITTEN thank you that day. I know, I know "the mail"; they get that note well after 'election day' so to speak. But I want that message sent. I've learned in 30+ years of job hunting/searching that it's the little things, and who knows when I'm run across that person again.
(Example: I was with a small group within a bigger, international conglomerate. That conglomerate was buying a French company. My old boss - who I hadn't worked with in five or more years - called me and said "hey, got a friend who is going to "conglomerate" in that big deal. Are you willing to have lunch and just talk to him about "conglomerate"? If nothing else, he's a nice guy, you'll have a new friend." Sure. We make plans, and he calls me the day before and says "any problem if I bring a colleague; he's a lawyer, he may be of help to you, small payback for your help for me". Sure. Long story short, to do the deal, "conglomerate" threw my little business into the deal and so I became an employee of the French company. My new bosses boss? The lawyer I had lunch with. When a counsel opening came up during the integration, I walked in and the guy said "I was hoping you were interested; well, we've already had our interview (that lunch). Any questions?" I got the job and despite wanting very badly at first to go back to "conglomerate", I'm happy and have been here ever since.)
I take NOTHING for granted in job searches.
Yours was the response I was particularly interested in, given you history and they type of work you do and at that level. Definitely a good point about never knowing what may happen further down the road...many industries are small, semi-incestuous world,s and some paths will invariable cross again. I hadn't been thinking about that angle, but its definitely a good point.
For me, I used them to check the "etiquette" box, but also to try to influence/cement the dynamic with folks who might soon be colleagues, whether that is "flexing" a certain expertise in how I recapped the conversation, or expressing what I'll call "informed curiosity". Basically, a little reputation management before I ever walk in the door, but (hopefully) without being too heavy handed about it.
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who's been unwittingly interviewed during an acquisition :lol My experience has been that any time you're interacting with a "big fish", it's effectively a micro-interview for some situation down the road, where their impression of you may become relevant...especially when it comes to being put in leadership positions (and in particular, cross-functional/matrixed ones). Successfully managing a crisis this year might mean a great assignment next year.
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It's amazing how many times people form lasting impressions that are hard to overcome. I was always fairly serious at work, but in my early career, doing more heavy construction, I spent a lot of time in the field. Hard days, and sometimes hard nights. I left that company and went to GE for about five years, then went back to the first company. I was a different person then (professionally). I had my MBA, I had been in board rooms with people WELL above my intellectual level (at GE I can't name one time I was the smartest guy in the room) and I had a different way of offering value. I never could escape the idea of the PM Cowboy. It wasn't a bad rep, but it wasn't a board room rep. Thankfully, when I went back to GE again, they remembered me from my time there and it worked in my favor.
I'd love for my work to be a fun and games party, but it's just not, and while I have friendships where I trust enough to let my hair down, I generally take the approach that "I'm on the clock until I get to my house or my hotel".
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So I should have an official verbal offer for the Orlando job tomorrow morning. HR actually called and made an offer today, but they aren't offering either some sort of signing bonus to make up for the bonus I'll be missing out on from working this year at my current job (I'll be in the door too late at the new job) or relocation assistance for when I do move down to Orlando, so I asked them to tack another 5k onto their salary. The HR woman also didn't know the typical bonus structure for my department, so she was going to find out about that so I have a more complete idea of the total comp number. Whatever they offer me tomorrow I'll accept and take to my boss, but the lack of bonus/relocation money means I'm more likely than I was to ultimately stay.
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So I should have an official verbal offer for the Orlando job tomorrow morning. HR actually called and made an offer today, but they aren't offering either some sort of signing bonus to make up for the bonus I'll be missing out on from working this year at my current job (I'll be in the door too late at the new job) or relocation assistance for when I do move down to Orlando, so I asked them to tack another 5k onto their salary. The HR woman also didn't know the typical bonus structure for my department, so she was going to find out about that so I have a more complete idea of the total comp number. Whatever they offer me tomorrow I'll accept and take to my boss, but the lack of bonus/relocation money means I'm more likely than I was to ultimately stay.
Not making you whole on the bonus isn't great (and falls short of what I think would be a standard expectation), but not offering relo assistance is just weird. How are they supposed to bring in talent without that? That seems so odd, especially in finance. I might almost take this as them not being in tune with industry norms (though of course I'm not in that industry).
I never could escape the idea of the PM Cowboy.
It took me a minute the realize that PM mean after hours, and not that they saw you as Project Management cowboy (which I like the idea of)
(at GE I can't name one time I was the smartest guy in the room)
"If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room"
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So I should have an official verbal offer for the Orlando job tomorrow morning. HR actually called and made an offer today, but they aren't offering either some sort of signing bonus to make up for the bonus I'll be missing out on from working this year at my current job (I'll be in the door too late at the new job) or relocation assistance for when I do move down to Orlando, so I asked them to tack another 5k onto their salary. The HR woman also didn't know the typical bonus structure for my department, so she was going to find out about that so I have a more complete idea of the total comp number. Whatever they offer me tomorrow I'll accept and take to my boss, but the lack of bonus/relocation money means I'm more likely than I was to ultimately stay.
Not making you whole on the bonus isn't great (and falls short of what I think would be a standard expectation), but not offering relo assistance is just weird. How are they supposed to bring in talent without that? That seems so odd, especially in finance. I might almost take this as them not being in tune with industry norms (though of course I'm not in that industry).
Yeah, the relo in particular was surprising. The external recruiter who had been my regular point of contact for this had indicated that relocation assistance would be provided, while also cautioning that a signing bonus might not be in the cards. Combined with the fact that I'd lose about a week of paid vacation in the jump and my 401k match would go from 6% to 4% it makes it much more likely that I end up staying where I'm at, even if the counter is a bit less than what this place is offering.
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Well, I called to verbally accept the offer for the Orlando job on Friday the 6th but due to a technical issue with their HR system I still don't have any of my onboarding emails, including my written offer. Considering that my current job can't start the process of making a counter until I present them with a written offer and I won't start the clock on my two weeks' notice without it, I'm starting to get a little pissed off. How does it take this long to get me my damn emails.
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But his emails....
;) :)
I'm just joking, Bill. That stuff is frustrating, if you ask me. I know it's not their job to make my negotiations easier, but this is such simple stuff, you'd think they have it down at this point.
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Yeah, evidently it's not just me but a wider issue they're having with applicants not getting any system-generated emails. They finally emailed me this morning with an alternate link that might work to get me to be able to access my offer letter. Of course I then was having a hard time logging into their Careers portal (which might have been me misremembering the password I set when I created my account to apply), so I reset my password. But the lack of system emails means I'm also not getting the password reset emails :lol They're processing a manual reset and will send me the details, so hopefully I can still get my offer letter later today.
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That sounds like a massive, frustrating pain in the ass.
So I'm a week and a half in to the new gig, and...holy shit. Startup biotech life is VERY different to big pharma life, especially in a role like this. I've done more in the last eight days than in the preceding five months at my old job. And I'm having to do crazy, consequential shit that I'm not sure I'm qualified for, yet I somehow have more experience in than most of the other folks. But the lack of red tape is refreshing. Decisions that would have taken weeks are done in 45 seconds. A five minute conversation gets me the clarity it would have taken an hour (or perhaps multiple meetings across several days) to get. It's high adrenaline, but it's very focused, and there is little wasted energy.
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That’s gotta be a bit of a rush, to be honest milahh. Corporate culture of analysis paralysis is beyond maddening.
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That sounds like a massive, frustrating pain in the ass.
So I'm a week and a half in to the new gig, and...holy shit. Startup biotech life is VERY different to big pharma life, especially in a role like this. I've done more in the last eight days than in the preceding five months at my old job. And I'm having to do crazy, consequential shit that I'm not sure I'm qualified for, yet I somehow have more experience in than most of the other folks. But the lack of red tape is refreshing. Decisions that would have taken weeks are done in 45 seconds. A five minute conversation gets me the clarity it would have taken an hour (or perhaps multiple meetings across several days) to get. It's high adrenaline, but it's very focused, and there is little wasted energy.
Yea, I know the feeling of this when I went from working for one of the biggest banks in the world to working for a tech start up company almost 7 years ago. All of the sudden everything was quicker and I had more responsibilities. Less management, less structure, just get everything done and figure it out. Learned a lot in that time, but now we got bought by another huge company and things are slowly migrating to that same style of work that I had before which really sucks the life out of this job.
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Finally got my damn offer letter this morning and passed it on to my boss. Now a different waiting game begins.
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Finally got my damn offer letter this morning and passed it on to my boss. Now a different waiting game begins.
Good Luck!
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Looks like I'm Florida-bound (eventually). The best my boss could get HR to commit to was a 32% increase and then he couldn't get business approval to make that the counteroffer. The business wasn't going to approve anything even remotely competitive versus the offer that I got. I'll finish up my current job on the 4th, have the following week off, and then start the new job on the 14th. I'll be remote until things are a little bit less Covid-y next year.
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That’s exciting! Congrats!
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Looks like I'm Florida-bound (eventually). The best my boss could get HR to commit to was a 32% increase and then he couldn't get business approval to make that the counteroffer. The business wasn't going to approve anything even remotely competitive versus the offer that I got. I'll finish up my current job on the 4th, have the following week off, and then start the new job on the 14th. I'll be remote until things are a little bit less Covid-y next year.
Wow, a 32% increase and still not good enough. Good work, and good luck in Florida. There's a Medieval Times in Orlando to check out :yarr I think you'll enjoy it down there, everyone who leaves the NYC area realizes how much more relax and better life is outside the big apple from all I've heard from everyone who has left.
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Looks like I'm Florida-bound (eventually). The best my boss could get HR to commit to was a 32% increase and then he couldn't get business approval to make that the counteroffer. The business wasn't going to approve anything even remotely competitive versus the offer that I got. I'll finish up my current job on the 4th, have the following week off, and then start the new job on the 14th. I'll be remote until things are a little bit less Covid-y next year.
Wow, a 32% increase and still not good enough. Good work, and good luck in Florida. There's a Medieval Times in Orlando to check out :yarr I think you'll enjoy it down there, everyone who leaves the NYC area realizes how much more relax and better life is outside the big apple from all I've heard from everyone who has left.
Yeah, Orlando is the bomb. If we can ever talk my stepson (and his son) into going south, we'd be in Florida too. It's got it's downsides like anything else, but I look at where my brother lives (ever see the show "Siesta Key"? That's part of his city) and I wonder why I'm still shoveling snow.
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Looks like I'm Florida-bound (eventually). The best my boss could get HR to commit to was a 32% increase and then he couldn't get business approval to make that the counteroffer. The business wasn't going to approve anything even remotely competitive versus the offer that I got. I'll finish up my current job on the 4th, have the following week off, and then start the new job on the 14th. I'll be remote until things are a little bit less Covid-y next year.
Wow, a 32% increase and still not good enough. Good work, and good luck in Florida. There's a Medieval Times in Orlando to check out :yarr I think you'll enjoy it down there, everyone who leaves the NYC area realizes how much more relax and better life is outside the big apple from all I've heard from everyone who has left.
Yeah, Orlando is the bomb. If we can ever talk my stepson (and his son) into going south, we'd be in Florida too. It's got it's downsides like anything else, but I look at where my brother lives (ever see the show "Siesta Key"? That's part of his city) and I wonder why I'm still shoveling snow.
Because August in Florida suck's ass.
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Somebody sent a friend of mine this picture about two weeks ago telling them that the CEO and I are very alike and would get along well. The CEO of this company posted this to his LinkedIn page. I'm not entirely sure what the position is, but I emailed the guy on a whim. Based on his post, I completely overhauled my resume to try and mirror his vibe. I even went so far as to define my objective as "I intend to use my skills and passion for technology to assist a worthy supervillain in any and all plots, plans and schemes to take over the world.". I also added an entire page just for my personal hobbies, which is something I typically include as just a small footnote somewhere. Salary and benefits are comparable to what I get now. Yesterday afternoon I received a reply from who I am assuming is his secretary. He wants to set up a zoom meeting with me some time this week. The three year stipulation scares me a bit, but I loathe my current work situation and career path so much. I think it might be worth the gamble to try and pivot completely. The main thing holding me back up until now has been the fact that I live alone and already have to work a weekend gig to keep my house. I can't really afford an industry/career path change because I'd have to take a huge hit to my pay. This job could be an exception to that.
(https://preview.redd.it/ix7v3uv19o261.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=6624444e6a6e977f44fc93786b8f186bb4ecfeb8)
I'm not really sure how to handle the zoom meeting. I have no clue what kind of attire to wear, or where in my house I should do it.
I've been building out a new workspace in my basement and am debating doing it down there. If it was an interview for a corporate position like I'm in now, I wouldn't ever consider it, but I think it might be the right call given everything I've seen so far.
(https://i.imgur.com/V6cMVIl.jpeg)
As far as clothes, I was just thinking a collared button down. I'm not sure if a jacket and tie would be overkill. There's also the problem that all of my suits/jackets are for an 80lb heavier version of me. I threw one on last night for laughs and it looked like shit :lol
Your thoughts?
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First, and I think (hope?) I speak for everyone here, you look GREAT. Granted I've only met you once in person, but I wouldn't recognize you. Fantastic!
I personally think you're spot on: follow your gut. You've already gone beyond what I would have done (I'm not that bold) and it's working, so keep going. I would at least wear a collared shirt though; I think there's a line between "creative, free thinker" and "lazy slob". You've already shown your creative side, you can't go wrong showing that you can bring that out-of-the-box thinking to those that don't have that gene. I think you want to communicate both. There's also the respect factor.
Does that make sense?
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First, and I think (hope?) I speak for everyone here, you look GREAT. Granted I've only met you once in person, but I wouldn't recognize you. Fantastic!
I personally think you're spot on: follow your gut. You've already gone beyond what I would have done (I'm not that bold) and it's working, so keep going. I would at least wear a collared shirt though; I think there's a line between "creative, free thinker" and "lazy slob". You've already shown your creative side, you can't go wrong showing that you can bring that out-of-the-box thinking to those that don't have that gene. I think you want to communicate both. There's also the respect factor.
Does that make sense?
Thanks Broseph. I hear you about the respect factor. When you say "at least wear a collared shirt though", do you mean something like a golf polo rather than a button-down?
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First, and I think (hope?) I speak for everyone here, you look GREAT. Granted I've only met you once in person, but I wouldn't recognize you. Fantastic!
I personally think you're spot on: follow your gut. You've already gone beyond what I would have done (I'm not that bold) and it's working, so keep going. I would at least wear a collared shirt though; I think there's a line between "creative, free thinker" and "lazy slob". You've already shown your creative side, you can't go wrong showing that you can bring that out-of-the-box thinking to those that don't have that gene. I think you want to communicate both. There's also the respect factor.
Does that make sense?
Thanks Broseph. I hear you about the respect factor. When you say "at least wear a collared shirt though", do you mean something like a golf polo rather than a button-down?
No, no, I meant a button down; I was responding to what you wrote: "A collared button down".
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I had my interview yesterday. I'm thinking it didn't go too well. It was scheduled to be a 30 minute meeting and we wrapped it up in 25, which to me isn't a great sign.
It was weird. First off, I think I really hate the whole Zoom thing for first meeting. I get that all jobs require an interview, but it somehow made it feel like an interrogation whereas all interviews I've had in the past fell more like a "let's get to know you" conversation. I think I botched some of my answers too because I tried answering how I thought he wanted me to rather than being completely honest. Major screw up on my end.
The first question he asked was "If you were to decide to build an RC car that could do 200mph, how would you approach it?". Well, in my personal life, I'd go on Youtube or one of my forums and see if anyone else had managed it and start there. If someone built one that did 160, I would think that would be a good place to start. Look at what they did and find room for improvement. But for the answer to his question, I approached it as though I was starting completely from scratch and as if I was doing it 100% on my own from soup to nuts. I'm thinking that was a pretty stupid move on my part.
He then asked "So why do you think you want this job", and at this point of the interview, I still wasn't even sure what the job was. Looking back at his posting, he never really specifies what the job is. I talked about why what he posted peaked my interest, and what in my personal life and skills apply to the things he was looking for, and that it sounded like it could be something I could wake up and look forward to doing everyday. There was then an awkward pause, which sucked.
I'm not expecting a call back. We'll see though. He might just have one of the monotone personalities that's hard to read.
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Try not to be too discouraged. It can be hard to tell sometimes. I've had interviews that I thought went really well that never called me back, even to say that they weren't going to call me back, and I've had interviews that I thought I blew which led to offers. My first thought is that they've scheduled a bunch of interviews in 30-minute slots, so finishing in 25 gives them a break between interviews. As for the awkward pauses and stuff, like I said, you never know for sure.
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Yeah, I don't mean to blow smoke up your skirt - you were there, I wasn't - but Orbert is on to something. I know for me, Zoom calls are NOT as good as in person, because it's too easy to get distracted, or to try to shoehorn them in. He might've had to piss for example (I'm not kidding).
Be patient, do your autopsy (in case you ARE called back and you have to revisit your questions) and go from there. Fingers crossed!
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I remember a while back that Chino had mentioned how algorithms are regularly used to filter applications based on whether or not they contain certain words and he had a very clever way to include them in the resume so they'd get picked up on by algorithms while not being visible to human eyes since they were in a tiny font size and changed to white text thus making them invisible on the white background.
Does anyone know if this works? I basically see myself having a potential fatal flaw either way and just wanna try to get an idea from y'all as to which way is a better way to go. Also, I'm not sure if the algorithm words change from time to time so if anyone has a link for a site with up to date words I'd greatly appreciate it should I choose to go that route.
Include the "algorithm" words:
Advantage-It might help me avoid getting instantly eliminated by places using the algorithm.
Fatal flaw-If someone notices that I've deceptively included the words, they might instantly stop considering me for the job.
Exclude the "algorithm" words:
Advantage-No skeletons in my closet about my resume.
Fatal flaw-My resume is very unimpressive so I could easily get eliminated from many jobs without having the ol' algorithm ace up my sleeve.
My resume basically has just two jobs covering the last 8 years.
Retail job: December 2012-July 2017
Pizza delivery job: September 2017-present
It looks fairly stable but also stable crap.
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Submitted my first resume / application in years. I say that since I believe me submitting a resume to my last job (the short lived one that I was laid off from) was more of a formality, since they wanted to hire me for months without even meeting me>..
Anyways...
It was a site that has you upload your resume, but then they try to fill in their system with the info from the file, but fail at it. I filled in the short lived job, then I took my job, that I had from 2012-2020 in once way or another, and split it into 3. Same company, but different responsibilities. From Nov 2012- April 2016 I'm listed as a Security Guard / Lead, then my short stint with the county here, then Supervisor there Oct 2016-Oct 2019. After that, Area Supervisor Oct 2019-Feb 2020.
I think this works because I spent most of the first stint as a lead, and the second stint I came back as a lead and was very quickly bumped to assistant supervisor then supervisor. I hope it doesn't look sketchy.
Now I wait. I was referred by a friend who works there, so hopefully that helps me. According to her, the interview process is incredibly tough. Wish me luck!
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Good luck Jay. Internal referrals absolutely help. Given the ease by which it is to apply for jobs these days, AI algorithms weed out 90% of applicants (at least). The hardest part about applying to any job is getting a set of human eyes to look at the application/resume. Hopefully your friend has passed along your resume directly to the hiring manager. Most companies will have HR further screen applicants, further limiting ones chance to 'get' to the hiring manager.
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I just went though the real corporate interview process for the first time in my life.
November 7th - Had an extensive interview with two in store managers. It went very well.
November 13th - Had a second extensive interview. This time with the regional manager. It also went very well.
November 14th - Did an hour long online evaluation
November 16th - Got a phone call to verbally make me a job offer. Was told everything from that point would be through email
November 21th - Got written offer. Accepted the offer
November 24th - Completed background check
Today is the final step as I go for a drug test in a couple hours.
Its the best job I've ever landed. Its with Tile America in New Haven
During the interview process when asked a question I felt challenged to find an answer for I slightly deflected giving an answer that had some relevance to the question. Then I smiled (through a mask) and said, "I'm sorry I'm not sure if that really answered the question you asked me?"
The interviewer said, "No that's fine I actually like your answer very much."
So there you have it. I went through the process and I landed the job. It feels really good.
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Congratulations!!!!!
I know that area of New Haven pretty well; you've got Sally's and Libby's Italian Pastries on Wooster Street, you've got Modern Pizza and Bear's just North of you (Humphrey Street, though I think it changes names at some point) and Stagedoor Johnnie's for when work doesn't go quite the way you'd want it! :)
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Congratulations!!!!!
I know that area of New Haven pretty well; you've got Sally's and Libby's Italian Pastries on Wooster Street, you've got Modern Pizza and Bear's just North of you (Humphrey Street, though I think it changes names at some point) and Stagedoor Johnnie's for when work doesn't go quite the way you'd want it! :)
Thanks! I appreciate it.
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Congrats Tick, thats great!
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Congrats Tick, thats great!
Thank you!
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Grats Tick!
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Grats Tick!
Thanks!
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:tup :tup
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Nice Work Rich :tup
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I just went though the real corporate interview process for the first time in my life.
November 7th - Had an extensive interview with two in store managers. It went very well.
November 13th - Had a second extensive interview. This time with the regional manager. It also went very well.
November 14th - Did an hour long online evaluation
November 16th - Got a phone call to verbally make me a job offer. Was told everything from that point would be through email
November 21th - Got written offer. Accepted the offer
November 24th - Completed background check
Today is the final step as I go for a drug test in a couple hours.
Its the best job I've ever landed. Its with Tile America in New Haven
During the interview process when asked a question I felt challenged to find an answer for I slightly deflected giving an answer that had some relevance to the question. Then I smiled (through a mask) and said, "I'm sorry I'm not sure if that really answered the question you asked me?"
The interviewer said, "No that's fine I actually like your answer very much."
So there you have it. I went through the process and I landed the job. It feels really good.
:tup
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Thanks everyone!
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Feeling that Big Tick Energy from ya!
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Just got word that after a year of pushing for it, I've finally gotten promoted and get to drop the "Associate" from my job title. I got bumped into the "gets an annual bonus" tier and got a 9% pay bump. The raise doesn't take effect until April, so a celebratory wagyu steak will have to wait until then :metal
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Awesome Chino :metal
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Hey! Congratulations!
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Just got word that after a year of pushing for it, I've finally gotten promoted and get to drop the "Associate" from my job title. I got bumped into the "gets an annual bonus" tier and got a 9% pay bump. The raise doesn't take effect until April, so a celebratory wagyu steak will have to wait until then :metal
Fantastic news! Congrats!
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So I figured I would come back out of hiding for a post or two...my scarcity around here is very directly due to my job, which has been kicking my ass in ways I never even thought possible. It's perhaps a little more than I realized I signed up for, likely the second-most demanding position in the company (after my boss, who is president & COO). I've found that I have to be a different version of myself in this job, in a way. In my previous role(s), my dominant mode was "this is stupid, why are we doing it this way", whether it was something technical, strategic, or organizational. But here, it's both much more wide-open structurally, and I just understand so much less. My old gig was sort of like swimming...water is the resistance, but it's also how you propel yourself forward; there is no progress without the resistance. But what I have to do no is probably more akin to flying...more freedom, more risk, fewer confinements, and much less to push against. It's actually been kind of exhausting, and probably will be for the foreseeable future..but at least I feel like I'm getting my footing and earning my keep a bit now.
So here is something I've seen in 4-5 interview presentations recently, and it annoys me to no end. People are spending the first half (or more!) of their presentation time either walking the audience through their CV (in powerpoint version), and/or treating as a "get to know me" with things like pictures of their favorite vacation spots and their pets. But really, I have your CV right in front of me and I DON"T FUCKING CARE ABOUT YOU DOGS DURING THE JOB INTERVIEW!!! You have 30 minutes for the presentation and Q&A, of course losing a few minutes to a late start, and you choose to spend that time not on showing us your communication skills or bringing some aspect of your experience to life, but on pictures OF THE FUCKING OCEAN?! It hasn't been a dealbreaker on otherwise good candidates, but it has caused some eye-rolls and it has raised questions about whether they really get how to prioritize. Given how much we've seen, it must be some new trend on interviewing advice...but it's terrible.
And great news, Chino & Tick!
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I don't know where else to post this, but a quick bit of venting on how hard it is to hire funeral directors.
Start with the fact that there are a finite number of licensed funeral directors in PA, and that currently it's generally understood that finite number is slightly below desirable.
Then take out the many people whose last name match the last name of the funeral home they work at. A huge number in the industry.
Then take out those people who wouldn't work at a corporate funeral home, even if it was in their best interest. (Not that I fault them, necessarily)
And you're left with ridiculous slim pickings and a painful recruiting process. I've had a job posted for a month, have tried several angles of recruiting (although I'm heavily handicapped by having to work through HR on everything), and have not had a single candidate apply yet.
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We are starting to go through resumes for hiring someone in Amsterdam. I don't know if it's a European thing or a new trend, similar to Millahh, but I keep seeing resumes talking about personal interests and hobbies. Why is that on a resume? I don't care! Some of these are just so poorly written or organized.
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I always have a section on my resume for interests or hobbies. For one thing, it demonstrates I'm not a loner. If I'm willing to maintain relationships with groups outside of my immediate circle of friends, perhaps it indicates that I'll fit in easily with my coworkers. It shows I have experience working with people across many disciplines and backgrounds. Also, at least with the hobbies I do, it further demonstrates what kind of thinker I am. Sure, I may not have known how to model the expected five year losses for explosions following earthquakes when I applied, but I showed that I clearly have critical thinking and problem solving abilities that could be applied to job related stuff.
People like to work with people they get along with. When I got my current job, I had on my resume that in my free time I enjoyed building and racing RC vehicles. The guy that ended up being my boss had a son who had recently taken interest in the hobby. The last ten minutes of my interview as well as the walk back to the parking garage was all radio control talk. While the hobby had zero to do with the job, it triggered a conversation that allowed the guy hiring to actually see who I was as a person. It wasn't some pre-rehearsed response to a generic question or me making up some scenario at my current job that never actually happened. Just two people shooting the shit and figuring out what types of people each were. I left that conversation thinking "that guy seems like he'd be cool to work with", and I think he thought the same. I got hired for a job I had no experience with in an industry I was clueless about.
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I don't know where else to post this, but a quick bit of venting on how hard it is to hire funeral directors.
Start with the fact that there are a finite number of licensed funeral directors in PA, and that currently it's generally understood that finite number is slightly below desirable.
Then take out the many people whose last name match the last name of the funeral home they work at. A huge number in the industry.
Then take out those people who wouldn't work at a corporate funeral home, even if it was in their best interest. (Not that I fault them, necessarily)
And you're left with ridiculous slim pickings and a painful recruiting process. I've had a job posted for a month, have tried several angles of recruiting (although I'm heavily handicapped by having to work through HR on everything), and have not had a single candidate apply yet.
What's a funeral director typically make if they don't own their own home?
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We are starting to go through resumes for hiring someone in Amsterdam. I don't know if it's a European thing or a new trend, similar to Millahh, but I keep seeing resumes talking about personal interests and hobbies. Why is that on a resume? I don't care! Some of these are just so poorly written or organized.
I thought that was common, depending on the job you are going for. When I was in college I remember my career advisor saying that "Employers like to see you have other interests outside of your career". I personally don't include hobbies anymore, but I used to right after college.
@Nick: where are you posting the job? I know certain positions are harder to fill than others but not having a single applicant seems extreme. Maybe the job description itself is scaring candidates away?
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We are starting to go through resumes for hiring someone in Amsterdam. I don't know if it's a European thing or a new trend, similar to Millahh, but I keep seeing resumes talking about personal interests and hobbies. Why is that on a resume? I don't care! Some of these are just so poorly written or organized.
As a Dutch person, that is normal and usually encouraged. Many workplaces want a colleague that fits in the team. And I know for a fact that the team at my workplace pays attention to it, because during my first workdays I got questions about some of my leisure activities/hobbies, as they reffered to my resume. At many workfloors, HR makes a selection, after which people on the workfloor get the resume. And since those are the people spending time with you for like 40 hours a week, it can be of influence. Furthermore, there are hobbies that indicate traits, skills, or life experience that might be useful (while not being relevant working experience per se). Though the latter usually only really applies to more involved hobbies (high level sports, being a referee, coaching a team, organising local events, or performing, for example).
Poorly worded or organised, however, is not something culturally normal in The Netherlands, at least I hope.
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I can see it for coming out of college without much work experience to fill up a resume, but honestly, my coworkers and I laugh at it :lol we need someone competent, don't give one iota about what you do on your free time. That stuff you'll learn as you get to know someone either in the interview process or once you've been hired. Just my thoughts.
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We are starting to go through resumes for hiring someone in Amsterdam. I don't know if it's a European thing or a new trend, similar to Millahh, but I keep seeing resumes talking about personal interests and hobbies. Why is that on a resume? I don't care! Some of these are just so poorly written or organized.
I wouldn't mind it on a resume. It gives a better overall view of a person outside of what they simply do at work.
What's a funeral director typically make if they don't own their own home?
That's a really tough question, as there is a huge variance between certain states, even within states such as mine (PA), and can vary greatly again based on experience and if it's hourly or salary. Speaking for the area I'm in I'd say the overall annual gross is 35k-90k, but I'd say the majority probably fall more in the 60-85k range.
@Nick: where are you posting the job? I know certain positions are harder to fill than others but not having a single applicant seems extreme. Maybe the job description itself is scaring candidates away?
Part of the problem is everything goes through HR and whatever speed they work and do things for me. They typically use Indeed, and after a few days I asked them if they could spread and so they put on CareerBuilder. Then I specifically asked them to put it on LinkedIn. My alma matter now uses handshake, so I tried to get an account there, but of course my company was already on there so now I'm waiting on some approval to do anything for that.
What I thought would be a genius move this time around has also not worked out. We are a combo unit (funeral home and cemetery in same location), and plenty of other funeral homes come to bury at the cemetery. So I made up a big 24x36" inch sign with Vista Print advertising we were hiring a funeral director and placed it at the entrance, so that every procession coming in would see it. Hasn't generated a single call or anyone stopping in to inquire.
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I can see it for coming out of college without much work experience to fill up a resume, but honestly, my coworkers and I laugh at it :lol we need someone competent, don't give one iota about what you do on your free time. That stuff you'll learn as you get to know someone either in the interview process or once you've been hired. Just my thoughts.
You wouldn't look again at a resume that came in and said "Loves weed, Iron Maiden, traveling, and kicks ass at Call Of Duty"? :) :) :)
I'm kidding; I'm with you. I don't give a rat's ass what someone does on the down time. Do your work when you're on the clock.
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Resumes and interviews have changed so much over the years. When I first hit the job market in the late 80's, it was a one-page resume and either a second page with three references or "references available upon request". Later, the idea seemed to be to give your entire life story; five or six pages. Then we apparently trimmed way back and the one-pager was back and no one cared about your references. My sister is the HR director where she works and she confirms this; it's changed a lot over time, and it's different in various places geographically, and different depending on the field you're trying to get a job in. So what do you do? Hell if I know.
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I can see it for coming out of college without much work experience to fill up a resume, but honestly, my coworkers and I laugh at it :lol we need someone competent, don't give one iota about what you do on your free time. That stuff you'll learn as you get to know someone either in the interview process or once you've been hired. Just my thoughts.
You wouldn't look again at a resume that came in and said "Loves weed, Iron Maiden, traveling, and kicks ass at Call Of Duty"? :) :) :)
I'm kidding; I'm with you. I don't give a rat's ass what someone does on the down time. Do your work when you're on the clock.
:lol my thought is, I will find out more about you through interviews and while I haven't interviewed someone in awhile, I typically will ask about life outside work to just get to know the person. I just don't need it on a resume, it tells me nothing about what I need to know to get you in the door. In fact, for me, it might be more negative because if you aren't listing out your work skills very well, but will list your hobbies. You're out IMO. If everything else on the resume is solid, I wouldn't hold it back, so I see it as only something that can hurt you. No one's going to hire you because your interests outside of work are interesting and/or something I can relate to.
Maybe part of this is because the person we need to hire needs to be able to hit the ground running and will be working solo so needs to be able to handle their work load on their own so we are being super picky and we aren't going to settle. So I've been really ripping through the resumes that make it to me. Hiring in Europe is tough because you can't really fire them, so we can't make a mistake here.
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Resumes and interviews have changed so much over the years. When I first hit the job market in the late 80's, it was a one-page resume and either a second page with three references or "references available upon request". Later, the idea seemed to be to give your entire life story; five or six pages. Then we apparently trimmed way back and the one-pager was back and no one cared about your references. My sister is the HR director where she works and she confirms this; it's changed a lot over time, and it's different in various places geographically, and different depending on the field you're trying to get a job in. So what do you do? Hell if I know.
To me, it's all about if the length is justified. I've seen 1 page resumes that are great, and 4 page resumes worth their length. I've also seen 14 page resumes that couldn't be justified by the most qualified candidate for any particular position. I've also seen absolute trash of every length.
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That too agrees with what my sister said. "It depends." Different people think different things are important, and that goes for the interviewer as well as the interviewee. I can see someone looking at a 14-page resume and going "I'm not reading through this shit" but then seeing something on the first page that catches their attention, they dig deeper, and realize that it's 14 pages of solid history. I can also see someone just tossing it.
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I can see it for coming out of college without much work experience to fill up a resume, but honestly, my coworkers and I laugh at it :lol we need someone competent, don't give one iota about what you do on your free time. That stuff you'll learn as you get to know someone either in the interview process or once you've been hired. Just my thoughts.
You wouldn't look again at a resume that came in and said "Loves weed, Iron Maiden, traveling, and kicks ass at Call Of Duty"? :) :) :)
I'm kidding; I'm with you. I don't give a rat's ass what someone does on the down time. Do your work when you're on the clock.
I'll clarify my rant slightly :)
My issue was with people having fluff or absurd redundancy in a presentation. That is not only a time-bound environment, where every minute you spend on fluff is one less minute you have to show the team what you have to offer...it also wastes the team's time. If it's a cultural norm to put a couple of lines at the end of a resume/CV, that's fine, whatever, it's the presentations where I take an issue with it.
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So here is a fun story.
I mentioned how I had no applications for the position I have open, but now I do have one, with a twist.
Guy reaches out to me before the position was even open, sent me his resume, and so when I knew a position was opening, but before the official listing went live I had him in for an interview. Interview went okay, and I followed up a few days later when the job listing was live and told him if he had interest to formally continue that applying would be the next step. Yesterday he applied and emailed me to let me know. This is 3-4 weeks after our interview.
Here's the fun part, when we were talking he told me he left his old job due to certain things he was unhappy about there, details aren't really important. But I heard from two different people the real story. Guy got canned because a family wanted fingerprints from their loved one and he took his own fingerprints and passed them off to the family. This was found out because the family ended up realizing that at the time he took the prints the body was actually still at the medical examiner's office.
Look, I know no one wants to face a mistake like that, but if you're honest and sincere about it there is at least a chance I'll continue a dialog and consider you moving forward. But compounding that with lying at the interview there is now absolutely no chance I would hire.
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Geeze, that's pretty fucked up too. Like why even do that instead of just waiting until he has the body?
Honesty is really important IMO. Finding some lie like that would immediately turn me off from someone.
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And unless I'm misunderstanding big time, while I'm sure they wanted the prints for something benign, like a plaque or something, why do that? What if down the road there was a more serious reason to need the prints? I could see - MAYBE - taking them from another cadaver, but I'm not giving mine.
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And unless I'm misunderstanding big time, while I'm sure they wanted the prints for something benign, like a plaque or something, why do that? What if down the road there was a more serious reason to need the prints? I could see - MAYBE - taking them from another cadaver, but I'm not giving mine.
A lot of places, mine included, partner with companies that make jewelry out of fingerprints, and that's 99% of the reason why they are needed. If it's for investigation or identification that's done by police/medical examiner/coroner before things get to us.
Geeze, that's pretty fucked up too. Like why even do that instead of just waiting until he has the body?
Honesty is really important IMO. Finding some lie like that would immediately turn me off from someone.
From what I understand there was some plan in place to take the body straight form the MEs office to the crematory, meaning the body would have never gone to the funeral home (which is weird to begin with), and so unless this guy was the one doing the transport he would have never had direct access to the body. These details are fuzzier and might not be completely correct, but it's the jist I got.
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Well, almost four months into the new job. Pros: the paycheck. Cons: the team I've come into is a large scale dumpster fire and the head of the team may have a drinking problem
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Well, almost four months into the new job. Pros: the paycheck. Cons: the team I've come into is a large scale dumpster fire and the head of the team may have a drinking problem
Aren't you the head of the team?!? I'm kidding. Hopefully it's not something that touches your ability to perform.
Is this the job in Orlando? Are you still up here?
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I'm still up here, currently they're not planning on reopening offices before September 1st so I won't move down there until then. The head of the NY team/de facto head of pricing in North America is who I was talking about (it's still not entirely clear to me whether I'm formally meant to report into him or directly into the global head of pricing in Dublin). It's probably just jitters thinking about making the move down there, but I'm starting to think that I might be better off getting an apartment rather than buying a house right away.
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I'm still up here, currently they're not planning on reopening offices before September 1st so I won't move down there until then. The head of the NY team/de facto head of pricing in North America is who I was talking about (it's still not entirely clear to me whether I'm formally meant to report into him or directly into the global head of pricing in Dublin). It's probably just jitters thinking about making the move down there, but I'm starting to think that I might be better off getting an apartment rather than buying a house right away.
That's not the worst idea anyway, man. I've done that move now a bunch of times, and if you can afford it (meaning, two moves, banking the proceeds from your house here to use for the down payment, and any provisions to get out of a lease early if you find something you love) it's the right way to go. You can't possibly know the exact area you want, etc. etc. without SOME recon, and this allows you to do that without the pressure of weekend trips and/or your shit in storage.
I know some people down that area, if you want any info (my wife's cousin is there; they are close). Let me know.
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Well I'm still living home with the parents, so it's just about finding a place down there. I had always wanted to go right into owning so that I was always paying into equity in something, that's why I haven't moved out yet. My larger concern at this point is if I'm down there six months and decide the job's just not for me.
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Well I'm still living home with the parents, so it's just about finding a place down there. I had always wanted to go right into owning so that I was always paying into equity in something, that's why I haven't moved out yet. My larger concern at this point is if I'm down there six months and decide the job's just not for me.
Or (as is being discussed in the home ownership thread), the housing market takes a nose dive. That is just as (if not more) likely.
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I heard ya missed me, I'm baa-aaack!
Don't: Wear a "Thin Blue Line" cowl in lieu of a mask for interviewing at a racially/culturally diverse company
Don't: Have a arrogant attitude like you know everything already when I'm telling you something that I am quite sure that you don't know
Do: Have a good answer about why you are interested in working someplace beyond "it seems like a hot industry"
Do: Be able to remember what systems you are using in your current job (especially for IT positions)
Do: Remember to enunciate clearly when wearing a mask if you have a thicker accent, the interviewer no longer has the benefit of being able to see your lips move to help in understanding what you are saying
Axeman, what's your latest?
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I heard ya missed me, I'm baa-aaack!
Don't: Wear a "Thin Blue Line" cowl in lieu of a mask for interviewing at a racially/culturally diverse company
Don't: Have a arrogant attitude like you know everything already when I'm telling you something that I am quite sure that you don't know
Do: Have a good answer about why you are interested in working someplace beyond "it seems like a hot industry"
Do: Be able to remember what systems you are using in your current job (especially for IT positions)
Do: Remember to enunciate clearly when wearing a mask if you have a thicker accent, the interviewer no longer has the benefit of being able to see your lips move to help in understanding what you are saying
I'm extremely grateful that I haven't had to interview (yet) in a mask scenario. I think it's a huge disadvantage for both sides, and unless one or both parties is an exemplar of verbal communication - and most people are not - it's going to lead to poorer decisions in an area that is already fraught with peril. (I don't think people realize how arbitrary and failure-prone the hiring process really is. There's only so much you can do in the time allotted to really get the measure of the person you're interviewing. It's also, IMO, a problem when the manager/boss is also the hiring manager. GE used to have a separate person come in and be "hiring manager", to provide context and perspective, and to make sure the "boss" wasn't just hiring a "boss clone", one of the more common mistake.)
I know for me, I love to read faces. Micro-expressions, reactions, whatever. I'm a face guy. I like seeing people smile. I like smiling at people. There are other emotions that can be sent as well, and those are lost behind a mask. It's very limiting.
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My sister is HR for a university and in the past year or so they've conducted interviews virtually. Still not ideal, but closer to "face time" than sitting in the same room yet not seeing each others faces.
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My sister is HR for a university and in the past year or so they've conducted interviews virtually. Still not ideal, but closer to "face time" than sitting in the same room yet not seeing each others faces.
Same with my company. And considering we are trying to hire someone in Amsterdam, it would have been all virtual anyway.
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Need your thoughts.
Current job: Sr. engineer, 5 direct reports. Promotion upcoming to manage a new service offering. 12-15 direct reports in the new role. In the office 2 miles from home, possibility of 2 days a week from home. Timing of promotion and future salary TBD, but I suspect they'll offer 10% raise.
Interviewing for new job elsewhere, didn't search it out, they contacted me. Was initially a principle engineer role, but I didn't fit all of the desired qualifications, so they said they'd consider me as senior engineer. I said no. They call back several days later saying they've retooled the role and would like to proceed with principle engineer. No formal offer yet, still one more round of interviews, but clearly the hiring manager likes me. 25 mile commute, 2-3 days a week from home. Salary and benefits TBD, but I suspect a 15-20% raise with loss of 1 week of PTO.
I can't decide if I want to continue with the potential new company. I like the upcoming role at my current company. It's a nice step up and I'll be formalized as the expert I my company in a specific area. I'd also feel crappy leaving right now given that they're building this role for me. I plan on trying to negotiate the salary since I think they'll low ball me a bit. And I'm going to push for the promotion soon rather than towards the end of the year as I suspect they're planning. However, the other job will have more variety and present a new challenge. I suspect it will offer more money, at least initially. There are some other advantages as well in long term career terms. For now I plan to continue with interviews and see if I get an offer. I don't like the idea of leveraging an offer from the new company to get more money at my current job, but that is one possibility.
Thoughts? Considerations? Advice?
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I like the upcoming role at my current company.
This has value which you can't put a $ amount on
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I like the upcoming role at my current company.
This has value which you can't put a $ amount on
True. I don't like how they're delaying the promotion and I suspect they'll offer me well below market value. I'm already 10-15% below what I could be at in my current role. Part of it is definitely a devil you know versus the devil you don't too. The new company sounds like a good role too though.
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I asked this in another thread but figure I'd ask here too.
Am I just old fashion or does anyone else think it's unprofessional for a potential employer to reach out via text instead of calling + email in response to an application.
I'm still job hunting, and things are getting down to the wire. My Plan B is to work at an Amazon DSP (Delivery Service Partner- the companies that Amazon contracts for their Prime Deliveries). I've heard back from several of them, including one right now inviting me to interview, but it's mainly been through text.
When I was hiring people, I would call, and if there was no answer, leave a Voicemail, and then email them. I wouldn't communicate via text unless it was later to confirm something or relay the address, etc.
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I think it's a sign of changing times. To me, email is still more "official" or professional, but text is more immediate, and sometimes more immediate is more important. But not important enough for a call. Actual voice phone calls don't happen anymore until they actually offer you the job, and not always then. The official offer could still come via email or text.
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I asked this in another thread but figure I'd ask here too.
Am I just old fashion or does anyone else think it's unprofessional for a potential employer to reach out via text instead of calling + email in response to an application.
I'm still job hunting, and things are getting down to the wire. My Plan B is to work at an Amazon DSP (Delivery Service Partner- the companies that Amazon contracts for their Prime Deliveries). I've heard back from several of them, including one right now inviting me to interview, but it's mainly been through text.
When I was hiring people, I would call, and if there was no answer, leave a Voicemail, and then email them. I wouldn't communicate via text unless it was later to confirm something or relay the address, etc.
Amazon employs 1.3 million people. I don't know what their turnover rate is, but I imagine it's greater than most industries depending on the department. The amount of applicants Amazon must have to sort through per year has got to be astronomical. You'd need a small army of Amazon employees just to personally call and email every person hoping to apply. It's a huge waste of money. Professionalism is nice, but it adds little to no value to the bottom line when it comes to these types of positions.
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I'm willing to bet it's a mere 1% (probably less) of applications at Amazon actually see a set of human eyes.
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I don't know what their turnover rate is, but I imagine it's greater than most industries depending on the department.
It's extremely high
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Interviewed with them today. Went well, I think.
I've also applied to a propert management company that I've worked with in the past when I was working security. Working with HOA violations. Something I actually have unique experience with :lol
They'll either see my name and go "Oh it's Jeremy!" Or... "Oh... It's Jeremy..."
We shall see.
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I know I said I think it went well, but I received my "Fuck off" text from the dude who interviewed me. It's strange..
I haven't failed an interview since I was 18 and interviewed at Target. I've turned down more job offers than I've been denied in my life.
I just had another one of the delivery contractors I applied to reach out to me. A much more professional message (via email and the Indeed app). Much more professional sounding. Going to set up an interview for Tuesday.
I also received an invite to test for a job with the county for the animal shelter. It's a long shot but there's a chance there : JayOctavarium:
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Another interview with an Amazon contractor in a few. Wish me luck!
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Don't
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4Zg1jX75m0
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Interview went much better than the last one. Much more professional. I'm pretty sure the last dude I interviewed with (who wasn't wearing a mask indoors with me btw... Against county mandate) saw fat me and figured I wouldn't be cut out for it... Didnt really ask me much, just went on about how physical the job is.
The guy who interviewed me for this company today actually conducted a damn interview.
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Alright... so neither of the Amazon interviews panned out.
Right now I have my hat in the ring for a good paying 40hr a week security job with a shitty company that offers no benefits (Interview tomorrow via video) and a courier position for a national diagnostics lab, which doesn't pay as much but seems like a good start with the a company I could work my way up in... the biggest problem is the pay PLUS it only being 32 hours a week. I've done a recorded phone interview thing with them, as well as an online assessment.
I also have done a virtual recorded video interview with Target... for loss prevention. far from my first choice, but it's work. Waiting to hear back from them.
The wildcard is a local mattress chain that I applied to, starting pay is fine, plus commission. I keep getting notifications from Zip recruiter that they keep pulling my application and resume up... so maybe I'll get a call? I have no sales experience, but I enjoy learning about shit and regurgitating facts to people.. so maybe I can put that to good use and sell people beds :lol
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Had another interview with another Amazon Delivery contractor. Video Interview. With the owner.
And Hired :JayOctavarium:
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Huzzah!
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Congratulations!
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Awesomesauce!
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So I don't remember if I posted about this in this thread, but I am interviewing for a a huge (for me) job working Loss Prevention for a new Amazon Fulfillment Center opening near me. It's a tier 4 position within Amazon, meaning great benefits, great pay, and sign on bonus.
Just finished my second virtual interview, which is the first of four today. WISH ME LUCK YA'LL!
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First of 4? sounds intense, good luck!
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First of 4? sounds intense, good luck!
Second one down. I think the first one went well. Second one... I think went... Fine. Next one starts in 10 minutes.
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First of 4? sounds intense, good luck!
Second one down. I think the first one went well. Second one... I think went... Fine. Next one starts in 10 minutes.
Go Jay, go!!!
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Done. That was an intense 4 hours.
I'll know the results in 3-5 days.
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Fingers crossed for ya Jay.
Man, I don't know what the deal is, but today was the fourth time my team has had someone leave either without providing any notice or without finishing out the two weeks notice they did give. Over 7 years at my last company and I don't think I saw it happen once, four times here in less than a year. Really pisses me off.
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Fingers crossed for ya Jay.
Man, I don't know what the deal is, but today was the fourth time my team has had someone leave either without providing any notice or without finishing out the two weeks notice they did give. Over 7 years at my last company and I don't think I saw it happen once, four times here in less than a year. Really pisses me off.
I'm 17 years at my company, but only 2+ as hiring manager and it's infuriating to me how many people, even longer tenured ones, fuck over the two week notice process. I am always explicit when hiring people to make sure if they are currently employed that they can give and serve their notice.
I had one guy recently who gave his two weeks and who let me know the morning of what was supposed to be his final day that he would be unable to make it and that single day short was a best case scenario compared to most.
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I have mixed feelings about the whole two week thing. I get it's a courtesy, but employers aren't always courteous, and employees don't always get two weeks notice if they're getting canned or get let go. If it's that big of a deal to employers, they should make it contractual.
I've been employed at four places in my life. I had/have outstanding rapport with three of them. The fourth job, a summer gig I had at Quassy Amusement in CT, I walked off of. I was running a ride called the Mini Himalaya and it started raining. I was ordered to close down the ride, CLOCK OUT, and then wait in the restaurant to find out when/if we'd be reopening for the day. I said to the guy "I have to stay here in uniform, but I'm not getting paid?". His reply was "well, you're not working. Why should you be paid?". I tossed my hat into the middle of the ride and walked. The owner of that place, George Francis, can go fuck himself. I will never spend a dime there, and I have zero regrets about not giving my two weeks.
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When I've resigned, I've ALWAYS honored the full two weeks. Completely. The one time I was let go, I walked out. Fuck them. They weren't thrilled, but it wasn't a surprise. My boss lied about the meeting we were going to have; it was a "status meeting, to go over schedules" and the first words out of his mouth were "we're letting you go". Okay; I went to my office, cleaned out my computer and desk, went back, handed it to him and walked out. I knew at that moment that place didn't appreciate me, and I didn't waste a minute of emotion on that. I went back to GE a couple months later (albeit 250 miles away; I've written about that) and I've been happy ever since.
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Yeah, there are certainly plenty of valid reasons for not honoring the two weeks notice, this just wasn't one of those cases. The guy has been working on a crypto startup fund with some friends of his, but it was still months away from needing his attention full time. My boss put in a lot of work to line things up so that he would stay with us full time through the end of the year, with us letting him take a few days off and a few half days to work on his other project, and then he would transition to a part-time role we were already planning on opening and just work with us in the evenings. We'd get the benefit of keeping him with us for months longer (he was a good employee and we were already stretched a bit thin), and he gets a steady income and benefits until he's ready to go full time with his new fund. Then we found out that his idea of a few days off here and there was him taking four weeks worth of days off between now and the end of the year. Not really doable with a team stretched thin and other people already having marked days off around the holidays. That came up Monday morning, and by early Monday afternoon he offered his two weeks notice of resignation. We were bummed but trying to set up plans for the transition as best as possible. He said all the right things on an all team call Monday afternoon, sent the stereotypical nice farewell email sharing his contact info, but was supposed to be with us through the end of next week. Then on mid-day Thursday he (without warning) filed a request for paid sick days through November 5th, logged off, and ignored all attempts at contact from anyone on the team.
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Didn't get the job.
Pretty bummed.
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Didn't get the job.
Pretty bummed.
Damn. Sorry to hear that Jay. It kinda sucks that employers put candidates through so much shit. What happened to the days of 1-2 interviews? Like fuck... talk about over-complicating things.
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Probably a lengthy post ahead, you have been warned.
For 17 years now I've been with the same field (funeral service) and with the same company (StoneMor). I started part-time in Allentown, and would at some point move into the apartment above one of the funeral homes. A good number of you had visited that apartment over the years. Eventually I would pursue schooling to become a funeral director, and I completed my internship and my early years as a director at that same funeral home. Eventually a position within the company but at another funeral home came up. So I accepted a big pay jump and used that to anchor my fiance and I buying our first house (and thus far only) house together. I began working primarily in Plymouth Meeting at our funeral home there, but also occasionally at the other location in Huntingdon Valley. Those locations are the continuation of a business that lays claim to being America's oldest continuously operating funeral home, which is pretty cool. In 2019, at age 33, I interviewed for and got the position of managing those two locations. It was a ton of work taking over, especially split between two locations, and just as things where getting settled COVID hit, and it's been staffing issues on top of many other issues throughout the last two years. Still, by all major inter-company metrics my two funeral homes improved dramatically during my two years at the helm.
I'm extremely proud of that, but while at every major step of my career I've soft-tested other employment avenues I can honestly say that I truly think I'm on my way out at this point. It's gotten to a point where dealing with employees, dealing with issues on every level, and constantly feeling pressure from the consumer base up and the corporate end down I'm really not in a great place mentally. Over the past few months I've looked into a few different options, but with nothing serious coming to fruition. I was even looking at some random jobs completely outside my profession, just for a fresh start. I'm at the point where I'm completely happy to take less money in order to cut down my commute a bit and to lessen my stress and put me back into a better headspace. I'm hopeful I finally found that position.
There is a funeral home closer to me (30-35 minutes as opposed to 45-60 on my current commute) that has three family members running it. I had a phone interview on Wednesday with one of them and a follow up in person interview the next day with the other two. The more the position and their situation has sat with me the more hopeful I am that this works out. It would be a big leap of faith for me to go from corporate to family owned, while also going from manager back to pure funeral director, but I'm ready to make that jump with these folks. Thursday night following the in person interview I emailed a couple of follow up questions and when they answered back they told me they hoped to finish the interview process in 7-10 days. It's only been 3 days, but every time my email dings I get anxious wondering if I'm going to be hearing something one way or the other.
Been a long, long, long time, if ever, I've felt this kind of pressure post-interview, and looking back I'm hoping all was well. Generally things were casual, and I worry maybe too much so, but it really felt as if the interview was less interview and more shop talk among peers, as we were all just guys trying to run our respective funeral homes. I worry about how my comments about how I wanted to cut back might be perceived, but I can say I really went in with full honestly on topics, good or bad, and I hope that is appreciated. If their search for directors is anything like mine it's extremely hard to even get applicants, so I can reasonably hope there are going to be few qualified applicants. I've posted about it before, but right now in my field it's a job seeker's market, and I could absolutely find another job in the next month if I wanted, but finding the right job is a bit more difficult.
Last year aside, with heavy pandemic traffic, I can hope to serve 300 families a year among two facilities. In an ideal situation it's me and four other directors, so 60 families per person on average. To help with that, and it's limited help on our day to day are two full time administrators. But in a week I'm going to be down to myself and two directors, one of which is a few weeks in, and no new hires in site. In that situation we're looking at 100 a families a year, with minimal support staff, which isn't sustainable.
Where I'm trying to go they see 400 families a year, but I'd be the seventh full time director. That's 57 families a year on average, which is lower than my current situation, even when at optimal staffing levels, which never seems to happen. And on top of that they have 5-6 full time support staff that do a ton of items that our funeral directors typically do, which greatly lowers the load on the directors.
So yeah, just give some good vibes in hoping I didn't fuck things up too bad when interviewing.
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Good Vibes... hope you're picking up what I'm laying down. :tup
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Nick, in my experience, it's a crap shoot of sorts, so you can only improve your odds. I have lost jobs for 100 different reasons: I was unqualified, I was over-qualified, I was male, I was too old, I was too young, etc. So short of a crystal ball, where you can tell exactly what the metric is that you have to meet, I have found that across the board, authenticity is your best bet to improve your odds in the most situations.
I don't mean this disrespectfully - just the opposite - but having been in a position for 17 years, it's probably not the most comfortable thing in the world to be looking for a job; be grateful you HAVE a job, shitty though it may be, because employers can smell desperation, and you NEED to be able to walk away - emotionally, from jobs where they feel you're not a good fit, and practically, from jobs where YOU feel you're not a good fit. I have found that there are the odd occassions where it is personal, but 99.99% of the time, it's not personal. 99.99% of the time, it's about a candidate that IS a fit, not the candidate that wasn't.
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Time for my biweekly post!
So, this was a tough lesson for me to learn, but I think also applies to Nick's situation:
Don't: Focus on acing the interview.
So I'm just over a year into the new gig, after having been at my previous job (my only real professional job) for 15 years...though there was quite a lot of evolution in that time. Anyway, I'm searching again, quite aggressively. My job and my boss are toxic AF. The boss is a narcissist (who uses the exact same back of tricks my mother used on me), and since she's President & COO, it's not like there's recourse, outside of getting the fuck out. Think of how bad it has to be to think it's a good idea to be searching for a new job when you have a baby showing up in three and a half months...
So what does this have to do with interviewing? I can look back and realize that I was trying to "ace the interview" for my current job. I was mindful that I was vetting them just as much as they were vetting me, but my focus on my own prep and performance distorted what I was hearing from them. I realize now that there were things that should have set off the spidey-sense, but didn't, because I was thinking about how I needed to respond more that I was processing what I was hearing.
This time around, I'm deliberately not thinking about acing anything, I'm approaching everything as just a familiarizing conversation. I'm not putting much effort into prep. Maybe a 15-20 minute block for each conversation. Of course I've thought about the big picture quite a bit, so I'm comfortable discussing whatever comes up or reasonable behavioral questions, but I'm overall much more low-key about it. It really help my confidence, actually...I believe in myself and my ability to handle things in the moment...and when I over-prepare, I realized that I'm actually subtly undermining my own confidence. I mean, why would I need to prepare so thoroughly if was actually worthy of the job?
It's been the right approach to take. Had a pending offer from the first place I interviewed (fell through when a clinical study failed), and things are otherwise going quite well with the 3-4 other places I'm interviewing. It's lower stress, I feel like I'm seeing both them and myself more clearly, and I can switch in and out of interview mode easily. I feel like I will make a much better decision this time around.
So, I think this ties back to what Nick was saying, and why I don't think any of it sounds bad...you're all professionals, trying to figure out if it would be a good fit. a certain amount of just shooting the shit can be part of that (it certainly has for me).
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Time for my biweekly post!
So, this was a tough lesson for me to learn, but I think also applies to Nick's situation:
*snip*
So, I think this ties back to what Nick was saying, and why I don't think any of it sounds bad...you're all professionals, trying to figure out if it would be a good fit. a certain amount of just shooting the shit can be part of that (it certainly has for me).
This is actually a requirement for me going forward. If I don't shoot the shit for at least a little bit with the person I'm working for, I don't think I want the job. I've been in my current gig for nearly eight years now (holy fuck), and I remember interviewing for it vividly. I had rehearsed my "lines" for days leading up to it. I recorded myself answering two dozen or so interview-type questions, and I listened to my responses on repeat dozens of times leading up to it. I memorized them word for word. The interview felt tense at times because I felt myself veering off my script, and I think trying to be that prepared actually harmed me a bit. It caused me to stumble here and there because I was giving more of an acting performance than I was a genuine response to a question. However, toward the interview, my future boss asked me about what my commute would be like. I explained it was long-ish, but I'm used to heading out that way anyway since most of my hobbies take me toward Massachusetts, and the drive didn't bother me. That caused him to say something like "Oh, there's a place in Enfield I was just at for a birthday party. Really cool facility. RC something or other. Ever been?", and the rest of the interview (maybe 5 minutes) was just talking about RC cars. The interview ended and he walked me out of the building and to the parking garage where we were both parked. That took about 10 minutes and we just continued to informally talk about the hobbies we had.
I'm convinced those fifteen minutes of just nonchalant chatter is what got me the job, not the days of prep and the careful memorization of business jargon and talking points.
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I mean, why would I need to prepare so thoroughly if was actually worthy of the job?
That is a really great point.
I mentioned how I recently landed a new (much better) job, and I think part of the reason I did so well in the interview was because it was more of a conversation about what it takes to do the job well (knowing your terminology helps people!) rather than a question/answer thing.
That's also the approach I take whenever I'm the interviewer. I have my list of questions but rarely do I stick to the script. I usually change my questions on the spot depending on the answers I'm receiving.
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Today was the first day training my new coworker in Amsterdam. I can relate to the current discussion because when interviewing, not only did we feel that the person needed to be knowledgeable to do the job, but we felt we needed someone who we could relate to and get along with which as Americans, is kind of a challenge to find in Europe. Not that there's anything wrong with Europeans, but just basic things like how we shoot the shit with each other. The fact the guy we hired was able to have casual conversation with us and we found a bunch of outside interests that we could relate to was a big reason we chose him. (and of course he was technically qualified).
I mean, why would I need to prepare so thoroughly if was actually worthy of the job?
That is a really great point.
I haven't interviewed for a job in so long, so maybe I'm wrong in thinking this, but I feel like I wouldn't put too much effort into preparing for the job itself because of this reason. I should know this stuff to be qualified. What I would prepare for is things about the company that I would need to learn so I can ask the right questions.
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I mean, why would I need to prepare so thoroughly if was actually worthy of the job?
That is a really great point.
I haven't interviewed for a job in so long, so maybe I'm wrong in thinking this, but I feel like I wouldn't put too much effort into preparing for the job itself because of this reason. I should know this stuff to be qualified. What I would prepare for is things about the company that I would need to learn so I can ask the right questions.
Yeah...do enough prep to understand their business and ask good questions that will help you understand where it's going and how you fit into it (and of course screening for red flags). But mostly, just go in believing in yourself and know what you're good at, instead of trying to do some kind of perfect performance, or do impression management. And it'll help the interview go better too, you'll be more at ease and more present.
My stuff is moving along. Had my interview with the hiring manager for Company A, and he wants to move to next steps; this one is through a recruiter doing a retained search, so high hopes for this one. Had my third (of seven!) calls with Company B today; they're a smaller biotech and maybe not at the top of the list right now (in terms of the work and the comp), but I'm keeping an open mind. Company C, I had a couple of "courtesy interviews" with VPs, they'd be open to considering creating a position for me, but the kinetics may be a little slow for my needs. Plus, have a couple others where I've talked to recruiters, but don't realistically see any movement on those before the holiday break. What I'm hoping is that Company B wants to move forward and that will force Company A's hand to get me an offer quickly. In addition to getting me the fuck out of the current gig, Company A would be a title bump, a ~25% salary increase, a reasonable working environment, 80% wfh, and is a good match for my career trajectory. Fingers crossed...
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Today was the first day training my new coworker in Amsterdam. I can relate to the current discussion because when interviewing, not only did we feel that the person needed to be knowledgeable to do the job, but we felt we needed someone who we could relate to and get along with which as Americans, is kind of a challenge to find in Europe. Not that there's anything wrong with Europeans, but just basic things like how we shoot the shit with each other. The fact the guy we hired was able to have casual conversation with us and we found a bunch of outside interests that we could relate to was a big reason we chose him. (and of course he was technically qualified).
I mean, why would I need to prepare so thoroughly if was actually worthy of the job?
That is a really great point.
I haven't interviewed for a job in so long, so maybe I'm wrong in thinking this, but I feel like I wouldn't put too much effort into preparing for the job itself because of this reason. I should know this stuff to be qualified. What I would prepare for is things about the company that I would need to learn so I can ask the right questions.
This last part. I think we can go too far the other way. I know that rapport is important, but - having been on the other side of the desk - if I feel the person is just winging it, they're out. It depends on the company, of course, but when I was at GE, part of that rapport was being interested and familiar with what OTHER parts of the business were doing. So while you probably shouldn't (and I know I WOULDN'T) brush up on your technical ability, I think there's some benefit to gathering information before you go in. If nothing else, like Cram said, it allows you to ask insightful questions.
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Thanks for the comments everyone, I have some updates on my situation. I realized that I had over 3 weeks vacation that I had banked that I can't transfer over to next year, time earned due to working my ass off during a pandemic and not wanting to leave my team short and unsupported. And my company doesn't pay that out year over year, you just lose it.
On Wednesday I took a big bet on myself. I officially gave my notice. I gave the company an out, saying that if they agreed to pay my vacation time out I would stay on until I found something new. Given how short staffed we are now they'd be idiots not to take that deal, but honestly they might not, as the company is awful at times.
So now I am facing two scenarios:
1. They do not take me up on my offer, and I'm unemployed come Jan. 1. If I don't get the job I interviewed for I will have 3 weeks of pay, so I can comfortably spend 3 weeks in January doing nothing but job hunting. I'm confident I can secure something in that situation.
2. They do take me up on my offer, I get a couple thousand in the bank and can keep working until I get a new job.
Either way, anxious / exciting times ahead.
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Thanks for the comments everyone, I have some updates on my situation. I realized that I had over 3 weeks vacation that I had banked that I can't transfer over to next year, time earned due to working my ass off during a pandemic and not wanting to leave my team short and unsupported. And my company doesn't pay that out year over year, you just lose it.
So they don't pay you, and the vacation days don't transfer over to next year? That sounds like total bullshit to me but hey, I'm not in the US.
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My company's PTO policy is use it or lose it. No carry over although they did give in and say people can carry over 5 days now. I wish I had a payout option because I get so much PTO that I end up burning days to just chill home. But the benefit is no obstacles to taking our days, just put it on the calendar and no questions asked.
Also state laws may have a thing to say. CA law makes you pay out for example. But in NJ there is no law to force that.
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Thanks for the comments everyone, I have some updates on my situation. I realized that I had over 3 weeks vacation that I had banked that I can't transfer over to next year, time earned due to working my ass off during a pandemic and not wanting to leave my team short and unsupported. And my company doesn't pay that out year over year, you just lose it.
So they don't pay you, and the vacation days don't transfer over to next year? That sounds like total bullshit to me but hey, I'm not in the US.
US labour laws HEAVILY favour the company, not the employee. I've honestly never heard of a company that allows for carry-over, or payout in the US.
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Both my jobs have had some carryover (either 5 or 10 days, and any carryover has to be used in Q1 of the next year). My former employer would also pay out for any accrued but unused vacation days in the event you left the firm. That worked out quite well for me last year, I left in December of 2020 so had accrued all of my PTO but hadn't touched any of it thanks to covid, so got an extra month's pay on my last paycheck :hat
It's been a year now at my new gig, and it's been mixed (though more good than bad). The team I joined was in chaos when I first got there. The team was understaffed, undertrained, dealing with rapid growth in volume, and the guy running the show (my direct boss) wasn't really cut out for the job. I got a new boss around midyear and things were trending better for a few months. Then we had four people (three of whom were quite experienced) leave the team in the month of October and a fifth go out on emergency person medical leave. November sucked. Worked 8am-10pm M-F and more on the weekends. We had new bodies coming in, but it took them time to get up to speed. We've stabilized now though, the team has gone from 12 to 16, with four more new joiners tee'd up for January and more recs we can open/recruit for once the calendar flips to 2022. With any luck, the team I'm on will be double the size it was when I joined by mid-2022. On a personal level I got a great year-end review, got the highest performance rating in the system (which they don't hand those out freely) and they want to move me to oversee our biggest/most high profile business line next year. Now I just have to be patient and wait until early Feb to find out what kind of bonus that translates into :lol
Thanks for the comments everyone, I have some updates on my situation. I realized that I had over 3 weeks vacation that I had banked that I can't transfer over to next year, time earned due to working my ass off during a pandemic and not wanting to leave my team short and unsupported. And my company doesn't pay that out year over year, you just lose it.
On Wednesday I took a big bet on myself. I officially gave my notice. I gave the company an out, saying that if they agreed to pay my vacation time out I would stay on until I found something new. Given how short staffed we are now they'd be idiots not to take that deal, but honestly they might not, as the company is awful at times.
So now I am facing two scenarios:
1. They do not take me up on my offer, and I'm unemployed come Jan. 1. If I don't get the job I interviewed for I will have 3 weeks of pay, so I can comfortably spend 3 weeks in January doing nothing but job hunting. I'm confident I can secure something in that situation.
2. They do take me up on my offer, I get a couple thousand in the bank and can keep working until I get a new job.
Either way, anxious / exciting times ahead.
Fingers crossed for door number 2
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Fingers crossed for door number 2
:zydar:
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Fingers crossed for door number 2
:zydar:
HAHA.
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Okay....So...
I went on Indeed and looked for places that were hiring. I see Wingstop and decide why not. I go to apply on their site and just started to fill out my application. I only sent in my name, address and phone number and hit next then all of a sudden, I get a call on my phone.
I answer and it's the manager at the Wingstop I was applying at. I told him I didn't even finish the application yet, we laughed then he said if was available for an interview on Friday. I said sure. I go and lo and behold, he offers me the job. I start in about 30 minutes.
I just wanted to post that amazing, hilarious scenario.
Hopefully it goes good and it's not a toxic environment. Doesn't seem like it to me.
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@Nick: That is definitely exciting, and a good bet. Kudos to you for having the confidence, recognizing that the current situation sucked, and doing something about it.
@Ben_Jamin: That's pretty cool, if not slightly creepy that filling the first bit of an application generated a contact! :lol Hope it goes well!
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@Ben_Jamin: That's pretty cool, if not slightly creepy that filling the first bit of an application generated a contact! :lol Hope it goes well!
He was looking at the applications at the time and I fortunately happened to apply. Like a text message he probably saw it right away. He even thought that was pretty interesting too.
It went well by the way, co-workers are not too bad now and it went great. My manager said that it's one of the busiest Wingstop's in the area. I actually forgot it's Sunday, there's football today. :lol I did not stop until my shift was over. So, that was a pretty good first day and if I survived that, I think it'll go good.
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Woot, got the job!
First offer was good enough to make it a no brainer.
Expected to take a pay cut, but didn't really end up that way.
10k less in salary, but new job has no out of paycheck medical costs (3.5k annually at current job), and the new job contributes 3k to the HSA, covering the deductible. So that leaves a real net loss of 3.5k, and this job is 10 miles closer for me, so that's 3,000 or so miles less driven, and a ton of time on the road saved for that 3.5k.
Really happy right now.
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Congrats!
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Congratulations, great news!
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Congrats Nick
Money isn't everything so taking a slight pay cut for a better work/life balance is likely a solid move.
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Happy for you, Nick! What a way to kick off the new year!
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Woot, got the job!
First offer was good enough to make it a no brainer.
Expected to take a pay cut, but didn't really end up that way.
10k less in salary, but new job has no out of paycheck medical costs (3.5k annually at current job), and the new job contributes 3k to the HSA, covering the deductible. So that leaves a real net loss of 3.5k, and this job is 10 miles closer for me, so that's 3,000 or so miles less driven, and a ton of time on the road saved for that 3.5k.
Really happy right now.
Nick right now ...
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F742.gif&hash=6bac0355c92a04253860351f88716a2b773b7be3)
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Holiday break is weirdly stressful...still in limbo on both opportunities.
- Company A: I still need to interview with one more person, and it's not yet scheduled, but hopefully happens quickly after the break. It's definitely my preference...much bigger company, better salary, one day a week onsite, and the paternity leave is a known quantity that I won't need to negotiate on. Good vibes and feedback so far, including one of the Therapeutic Area Heads I talked to saying he wanted to bring me in...and the headhunter I'm working with placed 3 of the four folks I've interviewed with
- Company B: First round was two people, second round was six more people, plus I know two former colleagues there...which means I've talked to almost 20% of the company :lol I'd be surprised if I didn't get an offer, but I don't know the leave policy, the salary would probably be ~15% lower, and it would be two days a week onsite (though the office would be sexy, it's at Hudson Yards in Manhattan)
I'm hoping I can use Company B to keep a fire lit under Company A. B is definitely a fallback position, but even that would be better than the toxic snakepit where I am now.
This is all a very weird position to be in. I was hoping I could be giving notice next week, but I think best case is early the following week. I'm definitely getting antsy/stressed about how little time I'll have in role at a new place before the baby shows up (first week of April). And I don't see staying where I am as a remotely viable option, the boss has started targeting/scapegoating/isolating me in ways that are setting off a latent mental health issue, so I just need to get the fuck out of there ASAP.
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Holiday break is weirdly stressful...still in limbo on both opportunities.
- Company A: I still need to interview with one more person, and it's not yet scheduled, but hopefully happens quickly after the break. It's definitely my preference...much bigger company, better salary, one day a week onsite, and the paternity leave is a known quantity that I won't need to negotiate on. Good vibes and feedback so far, including one of the Therapeutic Area Heads I talked to saying he wanted to bring me in...and the headhunter I'm working with placed 3 of the four folks I've interviewed with
- Company B: First round was two people, second round was six more people, plus I know two former colleagues there...which means I've talked to almost 20% of the company :lol I'd be surprised if I didn't get an offer, but I don't know the leave policy, the salary would probably be ~15% lower, and it would be two days a week onsite (though the office would be sexy, it's at Hudson Yards in Manhattan)
I'm hoping I can use Company B to keep a fire lit under Company A. B is definitely a fallback position, but even that would be better than the toxic snakepit where I am now.
This is all a very weird position to be in. I was hoping I could be giving notice next week, but I think best case is early the following week. I'm definitely getting antsy/stressed about how little time I'll have in role at a new place before the baby shows up (first week of April). And I don't see staying where I am as a remotely viable option, the boss has started targeting/scapegoating/isolating me in ways that are setting off a latent mental health issue, so I just need to get the fuck out of there ASAP.
Best of luck man.....I really do hope it all resolves itself and you can get to a nice comfortable spot and mentally healthy place.
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Holiday break is weirdly stressful...still in limbo on both opportunities.
- Company A: I still need to interview with one more person, and it's not yet scheduled, but hopefully happens quickly after the break. It's definitely my preference...much bigger company, better salary, one day a week onsite, and the paternity leave is a known quantity that I won't need to negotiate on. Good vibes and feedback so far, including one of the Therapeutic Area Heads I talked to saying he wanted to bring me in...and the headhunter I'm working with placed 3 of the four folks I've interviewed with
- Company B: First round was two people, second round was six more people, plus I know two former colleagues there...which means I've talked to almost 20% of the company :lol I'd be surprised if I didn't get an offer, but I don't know the leave policy, the salary would probably be ~15% lower, and it would be two days a week onsite (though the office would be sexy, it's at Hudson Yards in Manhattan)
I'm hoping I can use Company B to keep a fire lit under Company A. B is definitely a fallback position, but even that would be better than the toxic snakepit where I am now.
This is all a very weird position to be in. I was hoping I could be giving notice next week, but I think best case is early the following week. I'm definitely getting antsy/stressed about how little time I'll have in role at a new place before the baby shows up (first week of April). And I don't see staying where I am as a remotely viable option, the boss has started targeting/scapegoating/isolating me in ways that are setting off a latent mental health issue, so I just need to get the fuck out of there ASAP.
Would you consider just quitting now given that you have a very strong likelihood of being offered one or both of the other jobs?
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Holiday break is weirdly stressful...still in limbo on both opportunities.
- Company A: I still need to interview with one more person, and it's not yet scheduled, but hopefully happens quickly after the break. It's definitely my preference...much bigger company, better salary, one day a week onsite, and the paternity leave is a known quantity that I won't need to negotiate on. Good vibes and feedback so far, including one of the Therapeutic Area Heads I talked to saying he wanted to bring me in...and the headhunter I'm working with placed 3 of the four folks I've interviewed with
- Company B: First round was two people, second round was six more people, plus I know two former colleagues there...which means I've talked to almost 20% of the company :lol I'd be surprised if I didn't get an offer, but I don't know the leave policy, the salary would probably be ~15% lower, and it would be two days a week onsite (though the office would be sexy, it's at Hudson Yards in Manhattan)
I'm hoping I can use Company B to keep a fire lit under Company A. B is definitely a fallback position, but even that would be better than the toxic snakepit where I am now.
This is all a very weird position to be in. I was hoping I could be giving notice next week, but I think best case is early the following week. I'm definitely getting antsy/stressed about how little time I'll have in role at a new place before the baby shows up (first week of April). And I don't see staying where I am as a remotely viable option, the boss has started targeting/scapegoating/isolating me in ways that are setting off a latent mental health issue, so I just need to get the fuck out of there ASAP.
Would you consider just quitting now given that you have a very strong likelihood of being offered one or both of the other jobs?
I'll say the thought has crossed my mind, but I don't think would strategically/practically in my best interest (as much as I'd love to):
-That whole insurance/pregnancy thing
-It might raise eyebrows at the new place that I could start almost immediate without giving a notice period at my current shop
-I feel like it would decrease my leverage at offer negotiation...I'll admit I can't quite articulate how, since I wouldn't be telling them, but it somehow feels "off". Maybe it would just start screwing with m own head to be facing a ticking clock?
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On the whole "acing the interview" thing... I've been chewing on it for a bit, and have had some rather high-stakes interview conversations in the meantime. Here's maybe a better way to put it:
Be your best self in the interview. Read up on company background. Creep your interviewers on LinkedIn. Think about reasonably expected behavioral interview questions and your responses. Think about the questions you want to ask (not just to look smart/interested, but to understand more about the job/culture). Read up on how to approach interviews (I highly recommend Ask A Manager for this). But be your best self. Don't try to be perfect, that's not being yourself, and you're going to miss the cues from the interviewer that could tell you whether or not you even want to work there. Don't try to be what you think the interviewer wants you to be...that's both a recipe for crummy interview performance and for missing those cues about fit. Don't try to prove something, don't be looking for validation. Just be you, and rock that shit.
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I recently took a new job with a very established and well known construction company in St. Louis. I'll spare you all the long detailed version....but the bottom line is my former position was a nightmare. It was a job to where no matter how well I did my job every day was a freaking train wreck and cluster F%ck to where it was just non stop putting out fires. It was mentally exhausting and throw in the travel it required and the fact that the company itself didn't care to fix the logistical issues they themselves created....it was brutal. They cared solely about making money and treated their employees like widgets instead of people. Anyway.....I say all that to set up this....
So I was pretty unhappy at that job but I also wasn't just going to quit as I have responsibilities. I'm looking on LinkedIn one day and I see the company I now work at has a couple Project Manager positions open. I went to their website and applied for three of the open positions. I knew a couple guys that worked for that company as I've been on projects in my career with them...so I shot them a text and told them I had applied and if they could 'do' anything I'd appreciate it.
Within a couple days one of them texted me back and said to expect a call from HR.....which, I got later that day and we scheduled an interview. What was cool is that I had the option to either do it via ZOOM or go in person and I chose in person. I've always had pretty good luck at getting a job if I could just get in front of the folks making the decision.
The interview did not feel like an interview at all. I already had a job so I felt zero 'pressure' to perform or be perfect. There were two interviewees.....the President and VP of the company and we sat there for an hour speaking and it felt like we'd known each other for years. It was the oddest interview ever that spanned many subjects, half of which had nothing to do with the job. When compensation was brought up I felt no need to BS or sell myself short so I threw a number out there and they didn't bat an eye. At the end of the interview they told me they were immediately sending me through to the online portion of the interview. That turned out to be a series of tests that took about 4 hours total.
The following week I received a call from the VP and was offered the position, $5k over the salary I had mentioned.....zero travel.....and all together just a better environment. I've been there since the end of October and it's been a massive relief. It's been great to be a part of a 'team' again where everyone is working on a common goal. My first project out of the gate is a $200 million dollar drone production facility for Boeing. It's been quite the whirlwind but am extremely grateful.
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Wow, sounds like a great move all around!
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That's awesome, sounds like a huge quality of life upgrade!
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Holiday break is weirdly stressful...still in limbo on both opportunities.
- Company A: I still need to interview with one more person, and it's not yet scheduled, but hopefully happens quickly after the break. It's definitely my preference...much bigger company, better salary, one day a week onsite, and the paternity leave is a known quantity that I won't need to negotiate on. Good vibes and feedback so far, including one of the Therapeutic Area Heads I talked to saying he wanted to bring me in...and the headhunter I'm working with placed 3 of the four folks I've interviewed with
- Company B: First round was two people, second round was six more people, plus I know two former colleagues there...which means I've talked to almost 20% of the company :lol I'd be surprised if I didn't get an offer, but I don't know the leave policy, the salary would probably be ~15% lower, and it would be two days a week onsite (though the office would be sexy, it's at Hudson Yards in Manhattan)
I'm hoping I can use Company B to keep a fire lit under Company A. B is definitely a fallback position, but even that would be better than the toxic snakepit where I am now.
This is all a very weird position to be in. I was hoping I could be giving notice next week, but I think best case is early the following week. I'm definitely getting antsy/stressed about how little time I'll have in role at a new place before the baby shows up (first week of April). And I don't see staying where I am as a remotely viable option, the boss has started targeting/scapegoating/isolating me in ways that are setting off a latent mental health issue, so I just need to get the fuck out of there ASAP.
Would you consider just quitting now given that you have a very strong likelihood of being offered one or both of the other jobs?
I'll say the thought has crossed my mind, but I don't think would strategically/practically in my best interest (as much as I'd love to):
-That whole insurance/pregnancy thing
-It might raise eyebrows at the new place that I could start almost immediate without giving a notice period at my current shop
-I feel like it would decrease my leverage at offer negotiation...I'll admit I can't quite articulate how, since I wouldn't be telling them, but it somehow feels "off". Maybe it would just start screwing with m own head to be facing a ticking clock?
I may be old school on this point, but I generally think that's a bad idea to count your chickens before they've hatched. "Man plans, and God laughs."TM Even without COVID, things can (and do!) change, and with COVID, it's a new world.
It may be me, but I've been in some shitty work situations and there's NOTHING I can't endure for a week, or a month, or whatever it takes to get to a better opportunity.
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It may be me, but I've been in some shitty work situations and there's NOTHING I can't endure for a week, or a month, or whatever it takes to get to a better opportunity.
Your first marriage proves that!! :neverusethis:
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It may be me, but I've been in some shitty work situations and there's NOTHING I can't endure for a week, or a month, or whatever it takes to get to a better opportunity.
Your first marriage proves that!! :neverusethis:
Lord, don't you know it! :) :) :)
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Alright, we are making progress! Don't want to count any chickens yet, but for my company of choice, I have one final conversation on Monday with someone who would be a key stakeholder. But the exec recruiting firm I'm working with on this already has things ready to go for comp negotiations, and is even doing reference checks already. The feedback from the company has been that they are very interested in me joining, and the feeling is mutual. (and if El Barto is reading this, I would likely be working on next-generation drugs for organ transplant rejection, primarily kidney).
If this all pans out, I think I can tell my current employer to jump up their own ass at the end of this coming week. And if the comp lands where I think it will, it would be a 1/3 increase over where I am now (and about a 57% increase over where I was 15 months ago), and a bump up to Exec Dir. It would be a natural continuation of my career trajectory, and I'd finally properly cash in on all that time being underpaid (but getting incredible experience) at Allergan.
Not celebrating anything yet, but I'm feeling ok about things. And I've been mentally prepping for both my exit interview and the Glassdoor review :biggrin:
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Fingers crossed that we have some good news to toast to by this time next week.
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Ok, so one final conversation got turned into a couple more conversations. From what the recruiter told me, my would-be boss and big boss are good with me, and it's them that carry the weight. The rest of the interviews are apparently mostly about me getting a better view of how the org works and what the people are like, so I can make an informed decision. I have one of those this afternoon, and there may or may not be another (I'm hoping not, as her availability is brutal, and it could add a couple of weeks to the process when I don't have that kind of time due to when the baby will arrive).
Speaking of the baby, that whole situation has really adversely affected interviewing. We got an upsetting call from a provider right before my interview on Monday, and it definitely put me off my game, I just wasn't myself. And then I just plain missed an interview yesterday (the same one that got rescheduled to later today) because my brain is so addled from the complication and the fallout that I'm apparently lacking basic competence now (fortunately, the interviewer was chill about it). I think I'll be in a better spot for this afternoon, but I'm still a bit concerned.
The recruiter was very ambitious about my references...former manager had a one hour call, and the other two were 30 minutes. VERY thorough.
Any of you (particularly Stadler) ever done a Kienbaum assessment? Apparently that is part of their pre-onboard process for high-level folks. It's this 4.5 hour thing, that is part personality, part aptitude, involves a case study, and a bunch of other stuff, and is designed to give them an understanding of how they can best utilize your strengths, where some development opportunities may be, and how they can best do succession planning. It's proctored, too. Seems rather intense, but at the same time I'm glad that they take talent development and succession planning very seriously.
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I have done a fair amount of assessments through the years, particularly the standards - Meyers/Briggs, the StengthFinder program - but never the Kienbaum. I did a quick search and it seems pretty intense. I like that kind of stuff, but it's nerve-wracking; we're so conditioned to think in terms of "right" and "wrong" answers, but there is no right answer other than what's authentic to you. Your record speaks for itself, and you got that far.
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Any of you (particularly Stadler) ever done a Kienbaum assessment? Apparently that is part of their pre-onboard process for high-level folks. It's this 4.5 hour thing, that is part personality, part aptitude, involves a case study, and a bunch of other stuff, and is designed to give them an understanding of how they can best utilize your strengths, where some development opportunities may be, and how they can best do succession planning. It's proctored, too. Seems rather intense, but at the same time I'm glad that they take talent development and succession planning very seriously.
Yep....in fact, I just had a meeting yesterday with my departments Manager, my project manager and the company psychologist to review the results. It's fascinating how accurate the results of that test was as far as what type of person you are, how you're motivated....your work habits and what's important to you at work and at home. It was weird. But it does identify your personal strengths and weaknesses....to which, your company can then craft how to better train you and utilize your strengths. It also highlights what some focus areas of development are. Like I said...it was an intense batch of tests and yes....it's pretty much the full 4.5 hours. Lots of questions and the comprehension section makes you think way harder than you'd want to :lol At least it did for me.
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Any of you (particularly Stadler) ever done a Kienbaum assessment? Apparently that is part of their pre-onboard process for high-level folks. It's this 4.5 hour thing, that is part personality, part aptitude, involves a case study, and a bunch of other stuff, and is designed to give them an understanding of how they can best utilize your strengths, where some development opportunities may be, and how they can best do succession planning. It's proctored, too. Seems rather intense, but at the same time I'm glad that they take talent development and succession planning very seriously.
Yep....in fact, I just had a meeting yesterday with my departments Manager, my project manager and the company psychologist to review the results. It's fascinating how accurate the results of that test was as far as what type of person you are, how you're motivated....your work habits and what's important to you at work and at home. It was weird. But it does identify your personal strengths and weaknesses....to which, your company can then craft how to better train you and utilize your strengths. It also highlights what some focus areas of development are. Like I said...it was an intense batch of tests and yes....it's pretty much the full 4.5 hours. Lots of questions and the comprehension section makes you think way harder than you'd want to :lol At least it did for me.
Thanks! It sounds...intense. But I can certainly see the utility as long as it's in the right hands. Works habits...oh god :lol Are the questions about posting to DTF?
I have done a fair amount of assessments through the years, particularly the standards - Meyers/Briggs, the StengthFinder program - but never the Kienbaum. I did a quick search and it seems pretty intense. I like that kind of stuff, but it's nerve-wracking; we're so conditioned to think in terms of "right" and "wrong" answers, but there is no right answer other than what's authentic to you. Your record speaks for itself, and you got that far.
Myers/Briggs is...not great. It's good for getting the ball rolling on introspection and thinking about differences between people and how those manifest, and maybe reducing value judgments about other people (though I found that it just gave me more precise wording to put to my existing value judgments and an excuse to validate them :biggrin:), but it's lacking in theoretical underpinning beyond some of the Jungian basics...they sort of pulled a lot of it out of their ass, and the folks who refer to it as "corporate horoscopes" aren't THAT far off. Stuff like Insights, DiSC or LIFO (I'm LIFO-certified) are on a much stronger ground, have more validity, and are a lot harder to misuse. I remember you (and I think TV?) steered me to StrengthsFinder when I was really struggling with some shit, and it was exceedingly helpful. As far as the feeling about right/wrong answers, I'm past that with these types of assessment, but I have to pretend that I don't know what the questions are getting at, because I don't want to just wind up with a result that is consistent with how I want to see myself.
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I've sort of gotten all I can from it at this stage of my career, but I've grown a lot through the StrengthFinder program. It probably changed my (work) thinking as much as anything I've done (along with my MBA and working for Welch-era GE). As much as it helped me, it's allowed me to help others just as much.
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I've sort of gotten all I can from it at this stage of my career, but I've grown a lot through the StrengthFinder program. It probably changed my (work) thinking as much as anything I've done (along with my MBA and working for Welch-era GE). As much as it helped me, it's allowed me to help others just as much.
For using it to help others has it been having them take it, pointing out to them how they've flexed their strengths in the past w/o realizing, showing how the org needs them now and how/where they can apply them? Or something a little more intensive (e.g. career direction)? Or something altogether different?
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Having a debrief call with my would-be boss on Monday. I think we're in the home stretch...
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I've sort of gotten all I can from it at this stage of my career, but I've grown a lot through the StrengthFinder program. It probably changed my (work) thinking as much as anything I've done (along with my MBA and working for Welch-era GE). As much as it helped me, it's allowed me to help others just as much.
For using it to help others has it been having them take it, pointing out to them how they've flexed their strengths in the past w/o realizing, showing how the org needs them now and how/where they can apply them? Or something a little more intensive (e.g. career direction)? Or something altogether different?
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Having a debrief call with my would-be boss on Monday. I think we're in the home stretch...
Well, all of the above, since they are all beneficial, but mostly in terms of my thinking. The Strength-based approach leads to the idea of "capacity"; where are you in terms of your capacity? The question isn't what do you do great and what do you do poorly, but what areas do you have the most capacity to grow and improve, and focusing on them. I don't know what sport you follow, but it's like football; you don't ask a 6'6", 325lb offensive lineman to run deep post patterns and catch passes, and you don't ask 5'8" 185lb punters to play right guard. But you might encourage that 6'0" 235lb running back to work on his/her hands to become a more dangerous pass catcher, or you work on that receiver to perhaps do kick returns.
It may be pessimistic, but I do not believe every person can do every job to an equal degree. I don't believe that just "seeing someone like me" doing something is the key to unleashing my inner Thor. Some of us have capabilities that exceed others (and those same "others" have capabilities that exceed ours). I don't want a team that is five clones of me. I want a team that is capable of filling the gaps I have and vice versa. (And it should be noted, that part of the 'strength' and capability is an acceptance of that fact). I don't know, I've never talked to him about it, but I would imagine that Belichick is a "strenghts-based" coach.
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I've sort of gotten all I can from it at this stage of my career, but I've grown a lot through the StrengthFinder program. It probably changed my (work) thinking as much as anything I've done (along with my MBA and working for Welch-era GE). As much as it helped me, it's allowed me to help others just as much.
For using it to help others has it been having them take it, pointing out to them how they've flexed their strengths in the past w/o realizing, showing how the org needs them now and how/where they can apply them? Or something a little more intensive (e.g. career direction)? Or something altogether different?
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Having a debrief call with my would-be boss on Monday. I think we're in the home stretch...
Well, all of the above, since they are all beneficial, but mostly in terms of my thinking. The Strength-based approach leads to the idea of "capacity"; where are you in terms of your capacity? The question isn't what do you do great and what do you do poorly, but what areas do you have the most capacity to grow and improve, and focusing on them. I don't know what sport you follow, but it's like football; you don't ask a 6'6", 325lb offensive lineman to run deep post patterns and catch passes, and you don't ask 5'8" 185lb punters to play right guard. But you might encourage that 6'0" 235lb running back to work on his/her hands to become a more dangerous pass catcher, or you work on that receiver to perhaps do kick returns.
It may be pessimistic, but I do not believe every person can do every job to an equal degree. I don't believe that just "seeing someone like me" doing something is the key to unleashing my inner Thor. Some of us have capabilities that exceed others (and those same "others" have capabilities that exceed ours). I don't want a team that is five clones of me. I want a team that is capable of filling the gaps I have and vice versa. (And it should be noted, that part of the 'strength' and capability is an acceptance of that fact). I don't know, I've never talked to him about it, but I would imagine that Belichick is a "strenghts-based" coach.
Ok, more questions on this:
-I've only read two books on SF (what I think is the original, plus the leadership one)...what all did the program entail? It was clearly much deeper than the content of the book, based on how you are framing things
-Was this an "organizational language" at GE? Was it run by the internal Training group, or did outside folks come in for it?
-Was it something where you helped peers, or that you used in development of your own team? Were you in a position to give (or negotiate for) developmental assignments for folks to explore/develop capacity?
The "capacity" framing makes complete sense. It's one of those things where I can look back and see that there were people who saw certain capacities in me (that I had no idea I had) and put me in positions to see/develop them. It's also something I've done with others, even though I never put this set of words to it.
I don't think it's pessimistic to think that we're not all blank-slate clones..hell, it would be a dreary, depressing world if we all had effectively the same brains. And from a business perspective, the diversity in strengths, outlooks, experiences, communication styles, thought processes, etc. is how we have creative, original ideas and avoid massive blindspots.
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I've sort of gotten all I can from it at this stage of my career, but I've grown a lot through the StrengthFinder program. It probably changed my (work) thinking as much as anything I've done (along with my MBA and working for Welch-era GE). As much as it helped me, it's allowed me to help others just as much.
For using it to help others has it been having them take it, pointing out to them how they've flexed their strengths in the past w/o realizing, showing how the org needs them now and how/where they can apply them? Or something a little more intensive (e.g. career direction)? Or something altogether different?
--
Having a debrief call with my would-be boss on Monday. I think we're in the home stretch...
Well, all of the above, since they are all beneficial, but mostly in terms of my thinking. The Strength-based approach leads to the idea of "capacity"; where are you in terms of your capacity? The question isn't what do you do great and what do you do poorly, but what areas do you have the most capacity to grow and improve, and focusing on them. I don't know what sport you follow, but it's like football; you don't ask a 6'6", 325lb offensive lineman to run deep post patterns and catch passes, and you don't ask 5'8" 185lb punters to play right guard. But you might encourage that 6'0" 235lb running back to work on his/her hands to become a more dangerous pass catcher, or you work on that receiver to perhaps do kick returns.
It may be pessimistic, but I do not believe every person can do every job to an equal degree. I don't believe that just "seeing someone like me" doing something is the key to unleashing my inner Thor. Some of us have capabilities that exceed others (and those same "others" have capabilities that exceed ours). I don't want a team that is five clones of me. I want a team that is capable of filling the gaps I have and vice versa. (And it should be noted, that part of the 'strength' and capability is an acceptance of that fact). I don't know, I've never talked to him about it, but I would imagine that Belichick is a "strenghts-based" coach.
Ok, more questions on this:
-I've only read two books on SF (what I think is the original, plus the leadership one)...what all did the program entail? It was clearly much deeper than the content of the book, based on how you are framing things
-Was this an "organizational language" at GE? Was it run by the internal Training group, or did outside folks come in for it?
-Was it something where you helped peers, or that you used in development of your own team? Were you in a position to give (or negotiate for) developmental assignments for folks to explore/develop capacity?
No problem at all; I can talk about this stuff all day long.
It's interesting; I have to answer the second sentence first: there was no formal organizational language at GE, it's only in hindsight that I found this language to fit. I first encountered this at the other company I worked for. (For the record, I started with Company 1, left them after 10 years to join GE, went back to them after six years, worked for them for five years, got laid off, then went back to GE where I am now, even though my particular business was bought by a French company back in '15.) They had a corporate leadership program developed in conjunction with the Army Corps. of Engineers. It was very powerful, and changed my life; not just my work life, but my LIFE life. For them, it was an organizational language, and I embraced it pretty well; they had rigorous testing (including some proprietary tests prepared for the Army COE, including a strategic thinking assessment that was mindblowing for me; I had/have proof on paper that I don't think like the vast majority of people on this planet).
The content was pretty extensive; it was first the testing, but then it was an organized assessment of that testing and an open conversation - 3600, meaning with the employee, the supervisors and the reporting staff - to better frame the conversations that the employee was having. Now, not EVERYTHING was open conversation, but there was an explicit acknowledgement that not all staff did all things to an equal degree. The information was presented in an organizational framework (that company called it the "Vanguard Program" and treated it almost as an internal, corporate "MBA" for employees). So, to answer your third question, yes, it became a tool that got used at multiple levels. I personally got invited to be part of the CEO's Strategic Planning Team - we would meet bi-monthly and discuss corporate strategic initiatives. We used this language a lot in that context, especially when discussing how we thought the company might tactically achieve the strategies we were seeing.
The "capacity" framing makes complete sense. It's one of those things where I can look back and see that there were people who saw certain capacities in me (that I had no idea I had) and put me in positions to see/develop them. It's also something I've done with others, even though I never put this set of words to it.
I'm a big fan of this, and I am bought in, but one word of caution: if dealing with staff and peers, it's like anything else, you all have to be talking the same language. "Strength-based" focus doesn't necessarily fly with some of the more basic, feel-good tenets you see in the world today; I've written before that I find the "See it, be it!" mentality to be largely banal and trite, since it misses SO MUCH about how we as humans develop and grow. You have to be careful saying to someone - and this is true the younger the person, in my experience - that someone has certain capacities and lacks others. Some of this might be better considered "sausage making" and done apaquely.
I don't think it's pessimistic to think that we're not all blank-slate clones..hell, it would be a dreary, depressing world if we all had effectively the same brains. And from a business perspective, the diversity in strengths, outlooks, experiences, communication styles, thought processes, etc. is how we have creative, original ideas and avoid massive blindspots.
One of the things I really learned is how the hiring process can be (and is) at the same time random and unpredictable and perfectly predictable. I can't tell you how many times I've watched managers (I say that very specifically, as opposed to the more positive "leaders") hire clones of themselves. Unless the unit you're in is one-dimensional and has only one objective and goal, that's a recipe for failure. Your sales leader, for example, ought not have the same skill-set, the same strengths, as your finance leader or your engineering leader. SOMEONE on your team needs to be an exemplar of tactical thinking, whereas one person ought to be an example of a strategic thinker. They are NOT the same thing. I forget the exact term that Company R used, but they had a discrete category for those people that were "connectors"; you know the type: the people that remember every birthday, that have a knack for joining their friend group, that have a knack for putting disparate people together. Mike Portnoy. SOMEONE on your team needs to be a connector but not ALL the team can or should be. You need those people that are single operators to get the work done.
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Talked with my would-be boss today, debrief on the interview process plus any other questions I had. It became a conversation on which of the available programs I would rather lead (fortunately, my preference and hers aligned), which became about what my notice period needed to be at my current place, and talking a little about their offer and onboarding process. And that an offer letter will be coming my way! I'm not relaxed yet, still need to check a few boxes, do salary negotiation (via the recruiter), etc., but damn close...
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Thanks for all of this, it's really helpful (both conceptually and because the pending new gig will have components of mentoring to it).
I had/have proof on paper that I don't think like the vast majority of people on this planet).
At first I read this as "I don't like the vast majority of people on the planet", and my immediate reaction was "You needed an assessment to tell you that?" :lol
I'm a big fan of this, and I am bought in, but one word of caution: if dealing with staff and peers, it's like anything else, you all have to be talking the same language. "Strength-based" focus doesn't necessarily fly with some of the more basic, feel-good tenets you see in the world today; I've written before that I find the "See it, be it!" mentality to be largely banal and trite, since it misses SO MUCH about how we as humans develop and grow. You have to be careful saying to someone - and this is true the younger the person, in my experience - that someone has certain capacities and lacks others. Some of this might be better considered "sausage making" and done apaquely.
This hits pretty strong for me...we can't all be anything we want to be. I perhaps come at it from a different direction than you, but the notion that we are all blank slates or unmolded clay is just fucking wrong. Whether it's some guru telling us that or a parent trying to turn us into something we aren't, it's just not reality. We each have our own wiring that makes us who we are; that isn't to say that our fates are predestined, but there are some areas where we have the temperament, interest and capacity, and some where we don't. There was no planet on which I was going to be a salesman (too extroverted) or an accountant (too detail-oriented & routine).
Agree it needs to be approached carefully, and not just for the reasons you gave. Unless you have hard data and a pretty solid structure around this, it can be hard to see people and their capacities objectively, and to not be influenced by your personal feelings about them, or your value judgments about certain capacities/strengths/roles. There can sometimes be a temptation to try to turn someone into a mini-me, and that ain't great.
One of the things I really learned is how the hiring process can be (and is) at the same time random and unpredictable and perfectly predictable. I can't tell you how many times I've watched managers (I say that very specifically, as opposed to the more positive "leaders") hire clones of themselves. Unless the unit you're in is one-dimensional and has only one objective and goal, that's a recipe for failure. Your sales leader, for example, ought not have the same skill-set, the same strengths, as your finance leader or your engineering leader. SOMEONE on your team needs to be an exemplar of tactical thinking, whereas one person ought to be an example of a strategic thinker. They are NOT the same thing. I forget the exact term that Company R used, but they had a discrete category for those people that were "connectors"; you know the type: the people that remember every birthday, that have a knack for joining their friend group, that have a knack for putting disparate people together. Mike Portnoy. SOMEONE on your team needs to be a connector but not ALL the team can or should be. You need those people that are single operators to get the work done.
One of the cool things about having spent most of my leadership career in matrix roles rather than as a direct manager is that I get to interview people across an array of functions with a wide range of backgrounds. The thing that always sparks my enthusiasm is when I see someone as being a good complement to me (what skills/outlook do the have that I lack? What would this working partnership look like? What kind of balance does this person bring to the team/relationship?).
And yeah, you need all types..visionaries, strategists, tacticians, logistical-minded folks, planners, "lubricators", etc. Plus you need some who are very action-oriented plus others who are more deliberative, and so forth. It's all about balance and healthy tension. I want to know if I'm wrong or missing something, and I want to be able to say something when I think someone else is.
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Holy shit, just got the verbal offer. A 52% increase over my current comp, and a 77% increase over 15 months ago. And equity at 50% of my base salary. Holy shit, holy shit, holy shit.
But, to paraphrase Lone Star, I'm not just taking this job for money...I'm taking it for a whole shitload of money!
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Nice! So whiskey party when? :P
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No shit, huh. Steaks on Millahh!!!!
Hey, seriously, really happy for you. I'm glad for you.
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Whiskey party starts now!
Alas no steaks here tonight...J's pregnancy and properly-cooked steak (e.g. medium rare, edging towards the rare side) are not compatible. Under other circumstances it would be rib steak and duck for fat potatoes. I've done virtual happy hours with folks, could do a virtual steak dinner with you all?
I'm sort of in disbelief
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duck for potatoes.
I think I am finally starting to understand the source of the USA's obesity epidemic.
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Holy shit, just got the verbal offer. A 52% increase over my current comp, and a 77% increase over 15 months ago. And equity at 50% of my base salary. Holy shit, holy shit, holy shit.
But, to paraphrase Lone Star, I'm not just taking this job for money...I'm taking it for a whole shitload of money!
:clap: Awesome news! :tup
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Holy shit, just got the verbal offer. A 52% increase over my current comp, and a 77% increase over 15 months ago. And equity at 50% of my base salary. Holy shit, holy shit, holy shit.
But, to paraphrase Lone Star, I'm not just taking this job for money...I'm taking it for a whole shitload of money!
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zVOp5DlQ2MQ/TzO4rBdXZLI/AAAAAAAAAt4/qwC2MHP-xKA/s1600/approval-people-clapping.gif)
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duck for potatoes.
I think I am finally starting to understand the source of the USA's obesity epidemic.
Millahh's salary?
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No, thinking that duck is a suitable substitute for potatoes.
(It was what we Brits like to call a humorous jest)
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That's fantastic news millahh!
Also, would very much be down for either a DTF virtual happy hour or steak night :coolio
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No, thinking that duck is a suitable substitute for potatoes.
(It was what we Brits like to call a humorous jest)
I assumed that was a typo; I'm sure you know this, but duck FAT potatoes are a thing. You cook the potatoes using duck fat instead of other oils, and it imparts a rich flavor to the potatoes. Still probably a contributor to our obesity, but still....
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No, thinking that duck is a suitable substitute for potatoes.
(It was what we Brits like to call a humorous jest)
I assumed that was a typo; I'm sure you know this, but duck FAT potatoes are a thing. You cook the potatoes using duck fat instead of other oils, and it imparts a rich flavor to the potatoes. Still probably a contributor to our obesity, but still....
I don't think duck fat is really any worse than other cooking fats, it's just yummier. And I kind of like the idea of eating duck instead of potatoes. God I miss eating duck, but a properly cooked duck breast, like steak, is off limits until the baby arrives...
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No, thinking that duck is a suitable substitute for potatoes.
(It was what we Brits like to call a humorous jest)
I assumed that was a typo; I'm sure you know this, but duck FAT potatoes are a thing. You cook the potatoes using duck fat instead of other oils, and it imparts a rich flavor to the potatoes. Still probably a contributor to our obesity, but still....
I'm not sure this joke was designed to withstand this level of scrutiny.
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So, I did my Kienbaum assessment on Monday. That was...intense. Intense but fun. Potential derailers were on point...reserve/skepticism, and mistrust of authority :lol And overall, my read on my on strengths and styles was validated. I don't get the report util I'm an actual employee, though.
Something about it I found very beneficial (especially as I'm not part of the company yet) is that it forced me to think through my plan for the first 90 days. I mean, there's only so specific I can get since I know practically nothing about the program I'll be leading, but it got me thinking about approach, priorities, building my internal network, etc. All good stuff.
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I had my review for last years performance as well as compensation talk and it went better than I imagined. I got a 13% bonus and as 12% raise in addition to a promotion. I'm ecstatic! I had to share somewhere :lol
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Wanted to update here really quick on what I've been up to. You guys gave some good advice when I was interviewing at the end of last year, and if I failed to say so here I got that job.
So I went from the corporation that employed me for 17 years to a private single location funeral home. Cut my commute from ~55minutes to 30 minutes, and successfully reduced stress levels considerably, an all around success for a very small reduction in pay. All was well...
So like 3 days before I started that job someone reached out to me. This particular person had bought a funeral home 7 minutes from my house in 2018 and we've been in contact on and off again since then. This time he was making a huge push to bring me on board. I wanted time to try out my new work before doing anything hasty, and so I started at the new job, had 95% positive experiences, and was doing well, but after a month I figured I couldn't completely ignore the opportunity in my backyard, practically. Several meetings and discussions were had, and eventually I decided to make the move. I gave my notice Wednesday (2/23), and on Friday, (2/25) I had a very pleasant exit interview and they informed me that they were going to make Sunday (2/20) my last day, which was rather surprising. So talked to the new job and we moved my startup date from Mar. 10 to this Wednesday (2/23).
I am very excited about certain facets of the new job, obviously to make the move from someplace where I was happy. I do have some concerns, mainly the owner seeming a little eccentric and out there at times, and especially having less staff than the current job. But one of the things I love about the change is going from salary (which I was at the current and former place) to hourly again. And it works out that at 40 hours I'll make the exact same amount, so if I end up working a lot of overtime, no big deal as I'll make bank. I also negotiated 25 days of PTO + 5 holidays into my deal.
So a new adventure starts Wednesday.
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Good Luck Nick! Sounds as if the move will be a good one....especially the short commute and the chance to rake in some $$$ if the OT is there.
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Wow, I hate changing jobs, especially leaving a job I like (or at least don't hate), but it's hard to turn down a gig right down the street, and with potential for better money and more vacation, too. Congrats!
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I had my review for last years performance as well as compensation talk and it went better than I imagined. I got a 13% bonus and as 12% raise in addition to a promotion. I'm ecstatic! I had to share somewhere :lol
That's awesome, congratulations!
[snip]
That's also awesome! Definite balls to jump that quickly, but it seems like the right decision, and probably a type of decision that more people should take. We're often so reluctant to act in our own best interest when it could inconvenience someone else.
My new gig is awesome so far. It's a big challenge and a lot of responsibility, but I think I'm managing it ok so far. Got upset executives to deal with, a team in disarray and they don't even realize it, and lots of operational & strategic challenges. But I'm good t this stuff, and this is why they hired me.
On the interviewing front, I actually had a bit of an interview debrief with my boss. She had two moments in the interview when she knew she wanted to hire me...and one of those was where I (politely) disagreed with her thinking on something. She asked how I'd approach an under-performing team member, keeping in mind this is a matrix team and I don't have a supervisory relationship to the person. I questioned whether it was really a performance issue, and if it could instead be because of limited resources, poor communication, being conflicting messages about priorities by their management, etc., then laid out my process for discussing & ascertaining. She really liked that I challenged her assumptions, and she went and applied my approach to a situations she was dealing with, and it turned out I was right. As she put it, I "schooled her" during the interview. I am very glad to be someplace where constructive disagreement is actually valued, rather than just given lip service.
Oh, and the old place seems to be on the verge of becoming a smoking crater. Ex-boss's behavior is escalating/spiraling to a point where it looks liek she could get forced out...and she's president/COO! I am watching with popcorn from a safe distance.
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I know it's a big no-no to bring up money too early in the interview process. I'm curious what you all would think of this situation. A company I interviewed with a couple years ago and just narrowly missed out on an offer reached out about another open position. It's fully remote, which would be great and I'm more than capable of doing the job. The issue is that I suspect my desired pay range will be too high given the title of the position. I don't want to waste everyone's time. Do I bring this up in an initial phone screen? Sometimes the HR person will bring it up, but not always, in my experience.
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I know it's a big no-no to bring up money too early in the interview process. I'm curious what you all would think of this situation. A company I interviewed with a couple years ago and just narrowly missed out on an offer reached out about another open position. It's fully remote, which would be great and I'm more than capable of doing the job. The issue is that I suspect my desired pay range will be too high given the title of the position. I don't want to waste everyone's time. Do I bring this up in an initial phone screen? Sometimes the HR person will bring it up, but not always, in my experience.
Bring it up in the first interview. Just my $0.02. They reached out to you and recognize the skills. Find out what they're offering.
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I know it's a big no-no to bring up money too early in the interview process. I'm curious what you all would think of this situation. A company I interviewed with a couple years ago and just narrowly missed out on an offer reached out about another open position. It's fully remote, which would be great and I'm more than capable of doing the job. The issue is that I suspect my desired pay range will be too high given the title of the position. I don't want to waste everyone's time. Do I bring this up in an initial phone screen? Sometimes the HR person will bring it up, but not always, in my experience.
Bring it up in the first interview. Just my $0.02. They reached out to you and recognize the skills. Find out what they're offering.
I think generally Chino is right, but more specifically, it depends on what your priorities are. Money is rarely the deal-breaker for me, so I don't bring it up on Day One. Those things that are of import, I will. If money is a variable that would cause you to walk away, then sure, bring it up.
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I know it's a big no-no to bring up money too early in the interview process. I'm curious what you all would think of this situation. A company I interviewed with a couple years ago and just narrowly missed out on an offer reached out about another open position. It's fully remote, which would be great and I'm more than capable of doing the job. The issue is that I suspect my desired pay range will be too high given the title of the position. I don't want to waste everyone's time. Do I bring this up in an initial phone screen? Sometimes the HR person will bring it up, but not always, in my experience.
Bring it up in the first interview. Just my $0.02. They reached out to you and recognize the skills. Find out what they're offering.
I think generally Chino is right, but more specifically, it depends on what your priorities are. Money is rarely the deal-breaker for me, so I don't bring it up on Day One. Those things that are of import, I will. If money is a variable that would cause you to walk away, then sure, bring it up.
It pains me to type this, but Stadler is right.
:ontome:
Do it honestly, that you don't want to waste anyone's time if you are both out of sync on a very important factor to hire/accept for both parties. It's just as much for their benefit as it is for yours to know where you each stand on the matter.
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I know it's a big no-no to bring up money too early in the interview process. I'm curious what you all would think of this situation. A company I interviewed with a couple years ago and just narrowly missed out on an offer reached out about another open position. It's fully remote, which would be great and I'm more than capable of doing the job. The issue is that I suspect my desired pay range will be too high given the title of the position. I don't want to waste everyone's time. Do I bring this up in an initial phone screen? Sometimes the HR person will bring it up, but not always, in my experience.
Bring it up in the first interview. Just my $0.02. They reached out to you and recognize the skills. Find out what they're offering.
I think generally Chino is right, but more specifically, it depends on what your priorities are. Money is rarely the deal-breaker for me, so I don't bring it up on Day One. Those things that are of import, I will. If money is a variable that would cause you to walk away, then sure, bring it up.
Money isn't the number one thing, but it is a big thing. I know what I'm worth, and am certainly not going take a steep discount for this role/company. I fear based on the job title, that the salary range will be below where I'm at now. But, I've had companies come up with money to pay me more than they initially expected before. Or to modify the job title to make it match my skills better. In this case tossing a senior or principle in front of the title would be more appropriate based on my experience. I'll talk to them. Hopefully they bring it up first.
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More later, but I had to tell my boss (yesterday) and team (today) that I'm leaving the company. Next Wednesday is my last day. Thursday I start with the new company. Bitter-sweet feelings - certainly more of the latter, but I'm walking away from a great boss and team, and taking a small haircut on the income potential. So many other things are going to improve with the new company/role though.
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Indeed, this sounds interesting. Leaving a great boss and team with more pay for what may be not a great boss and team down the road.
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More later, but I had to tell my boss (yesterday) and team (today) that I'm leaving the company. Next Wednesday is my last day. Thursday I start with the new company. Bitter-sweet feelings - certainly more of the latter, but I'm walking away from a great boss and team, and taking a small haircut on the income potential. So many other things are going to improve with the new company/role though.
Good luck! Been there; it's hard. But you know what's right.
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More later, but I had to tell my boss (yesterday) and team (today) that I'm leaving the company. Next Wednesday is my last day. Thursday I start with the new company. Bitter-sweet feelings - certainly more of the latter, but I'm walking away from a great boss and team, and taking a small haircut on the income potential. So many other things are going to improve with the new company/role though.
Goodluck with the new role jingle, I was going to ask later on this year if you were going to be and the convention in Vegas because it looks like I'm going but probably not with this new role :lol.
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More later, but I had to tell my boss (yesterday) and team (today) that I'm leaving the company. Next Wednesday is my last day. Thursday I start with the new company. Bitter-sweet feelings - certainly more of the latter, but I'm walking away from a great boss and team, and taking a small haircut on the income potential. So many other things are going to improve with the new company/role though.
Best of luck Chad! You know what's right for you and your family so I'm sure while this may not have been an easy choice that you made the right one :tup
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Since I really don't like my current job, I have two job interviews tomorrow.
I usually approach an interview with an attitude of not caring if I get it or not. So far it seems to work well for me. Not sure I'll get either of these two, or if they pay enough. Put I'm hoping!
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Since I really don't like my current job, I have two job interviews tomorrow.
I usually approach an interview with an attitude of not caring if I get it or not. So far it seems to work well for me. Not sure I'll get either of these two, or if they pay enough. Put I'm hoping!
Good luck Adami! You deserve to land somewhere you want to be and that works perfect for you!
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Since I really don't like my current job, I have two job interviews tomorrow.
I usually approach an interview with an attitude of not caring if I get it or not. So far it seems to work well for me. Not sure I'll get either of these two, or if they pay enough. Put I'm hoping!
How'd it go? The not-caring attitude is a good one, that's a far more concise way of saying what it took me several posts to say upthread. :lol
As of today I'm halfway through my parental leave. Time has ceased to have any meaning...days and weeks are blurring together, and night and day aren't doing much better. But I'm very happy. I could not imagine still being at my old, hyper-toxic job while having a newborn...there's no way it wouldn't have bled over and interfered with my feeling safe and present with the baby.
I haven't been thinking about work very much in the last month, but I think the time away after the initial sprint is going to be good for me in the long-term. I'm still wrapping my head around the idea that I'm considered to be an executive at a 25,000 person company. I know that it is changing my relationship to power and accountability. I think I've come to the conclusion that it's ok (and in fact needed) to be a bit of a dick sometimes, when it comes to being clear that I will not accept someone's attempts to disrupt things or deflect accountability. I will still rely mostly on influence and being a "servant leader", but I think people knowing that I have my limits and that I can be an electric fence when needed actually makes the softer approaches more effective (because it's clear that I'm making a choice, not because it's all I've got). It's all a lot, but I feel very peaceful about it.
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Actually, I got the date of one of the interviews wrong. Luckily I thought it was a week earlier than it was. So I only had one that Friday and then another that next Friday.
The first one....was not good. I don't think it was my fault though. It was supposed to be the director and associate director, but the director couldn't make it so it was just the other one, who had only started a few months prior. So she was clearly a bit uncomfortable having to do this alone. She also mentioned that I had applied for her job back in August. I did, in fact, do that but mostly because I could. I never dreamed I would get it and didn't expect to even get an interview, but she still clearly felt odd about it. Then, after the interview itself, when I asked about staff turnover and wanting to really stay at a place for a good while and such, she got very uncomfortable, as if she was trying not to say something she thought would get her in trouble. Just very awkward.
Second interview the next Friday was really good. Felt comfortable, good people, good questions, etc. Job, however, is an hour by train away. So I dunno. Guess we'll see if I even get a second interview.
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So, after 16 months of being on the other 'side' of the construction industry.....working for a large Regional Contractor as a Project Manager.....I've decided to leave and get back to my 'specialty' and what I've spent most of my professional career doing.....Project Management Healthcare construction. Overseeing the install of Healthcare Equipment, focused on the imaging equipment like MRI's, CT's.....etc etc.
I was contacted by a company (Siemens) at the beginning of February that I had applied to at the same time I applied to my current employer 16 months ago. They had called me a few weeks after I started here to interview but I told them I'd just started a position and wasn't interested. They told me they'd keep my resume on file and call me if anything ever came up. Well, a Project Manager in the St. Louis area is retiring so they called me and asked if I'd be interesting in interviewing. I've been contemplating whether I really like what I'm doing now (which is never a good sign) so the call came a a good time. I interviewed and after three days of back to back to back interviews (manager, panel interview, VP) they offered me a job the following day.
I'll be returning to a home based job, travel in the form of driving and covering my territory with some limited over night stays....but by in large I'll be covering Missouri, a touch of southern Illinois....the Paducah area in KY and maybe a bit a Kansas City should the workload demand it. Modest 5% bump in pay which is fine, company vehicle that also can be used as personal, gas card and quarterly bonus's so financially it's a step up for sure. It'll be neat to get back in to the travel and jumping around to job sites after being at this position where I've been tied to a project site everyday.
So....come 3/13 I'll be turning the page on this chapter and firing up another one.
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Congrats on the job, funny how things work out some times
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Congrats on the job, funny how things work out some times
Thanks Marc...
What made it really hard is this company I work for is a really good, successful company. Great people.....I've just never 'felt' it here. I know that a job is a job and that not a lot of people skip to work while whistling dixie....but, it was a side of the industry I knew of and was familiar with given my work history and it was intriguing. Just didn't 'fit'....it's tough to explain. So....putting my two weeks in yesterday was really hard to do because this team I'm on is awesome. But everyone's been genuinely happy for me.....the VP I work under told me the door is always open for me to return should things not work out so that was very nice of him to say.
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I was contacted by a company (Siemens) at the beginning of February that I had applied to at the same time I applied to my current employer 16 months ago. They had called me a few weeks after I started here to interview but I told them I'd just started a position and wasn't interested. They told me they'd keep my resume on file and call me if anything ever came up. Well, a Project Manager in the St. Louis area is retiring so they called me and asked if I'd be interesting in interviewing. I've been contemplating whether I really like what I'm doing now (which is never a good sign) so the call came a a good time. I interviewed and after three days of back to back to back interviews (manager, panel interview, VP) they offered me a job the following day.
My sister just left them after 6 or 7 years. They have a plant in the town I grew up in. She was their regional sales manager for lower NY and CT (not at the same time). It's a great company (assuming we're talking about the same one :lol). The only reason she left because a client of hers reached out (poached) and offered her 20% more than she was making at the time.
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I was contacted by a company (Siemens) at the beginning of February that I had applied to at the same time I applied to my current employer 16 months ago. They had called me a few weeks after I started here to interview but I told them I'd just started a position and wasn't interested. They told me they'd keep my resume on file and call me if anything ever came up. Well, a Project Manager in the St. Louis area is retiring so they called me and asked if I'd be interesting in interviewing. I've been contemplating whether I really like what I'm doing now (which is never a good sign) so the call came a a good time. I interviewed and after three days of back to back to back interviews (manager, panel interview, VP) they offered me a job the following day.
My sister just left them after 6 or 7 years. They have a plant in the town I grew up in. She was their regional sales manager for lower NY and CT (not at the same time). It's a great company (assuming we're talking about the same one :lol). The only reason she left because a client of hers reached out (poached) and offered her 20% more than she was making at the time.
Yeah....they're a global entity....they seem to have their hands in a lot of things, especially medical related. I worked hand in hand with the group I'm joining as a customer for 10 years. The sales folks I know make a VERY good living and my quarterly bonus structure is going to allow me to have the potential to thrive which was very appealing considering two of my sons are within striking distance of college and my third will be there in a couple blinks of an eye.
I don't like to base every job decision on money....but the fact of the matter is I'm in my prime 'earning' years and I have to strike while the iron is hot. Plus, as I mentioned....this PM position I'm taking is going to get me back into doing things I 'know' and was/am pretty good at.
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Gary, I sent you a PM with more details, but my general assessment is consistent. This is a quality company that has a broad footprint.
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Thanks Bill.....received and replied. :tup
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So, after 16 months of being on the other 'side' of the construction industry...I've decided to leave and get back to my 'specialty'...
Congrats, sounds like a great opportunity :tup
Funny you mentioned 16 months, because I've been at my job for 15 and I am thinking of leaving as well, though for different reasons.
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I've got one for everyone...
For a variety of reasons, I decided a few months back that it was time to get my resume together. Been with my company since 2007, and I've been a hiring manager for most of that time, so I am well aware that the whole resume game has changed dramatically since I last compiled one.
I've tried in vain to find a respectable writer in my area...someone who can help me 'fine tune' my CV into a legible, marketable single page resume. I found two locals here, and both have ghosted me after an initial phone call.
The online sites are all fine, but I really, really, really want to actually talk to the person who's going to do it (why does this feel so crazy in 2023?!?)
Obviously, most of you don't live in Northeast Ohio, but at this point, I'll take any recommendations at this point, either for a private agency or an online service.
Finally, and I fully realize that this might be ridiculous, but I really don't want to spend for than $300.
Help me, DT Forumers, You're my only hope.
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Seriously. Tell ChatGPT what you need and see what it does.
Heck, it’s free.
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So, after 16 months of being on the other 'side' of the construction industry.....working for a large Regional Contractor as a Project Manager.....I've decided to leave and get back to my 'specialty' and what I've spent most of my professional career doing.....Project Management Healthcare construction. Overseeing the install of Healthcare Equipment, focused on the imaging equipment like MRI's, CT's.....etc etc.
I was contacted by a company (Siemens) at the beginning of February that I had applied to at the same time I applied to my current employer 16 months ago. They had called me a few weeks after I started here to interview but I told them I'd just started a position and wasn't interested. They told me they'd keep my resume on file and call me if anything ever came up. Well, a Project Manager in the St. Louis area is retiring so they called me and asked if I'd be interesting in interviewing. I've been contemplating whether I really like what I'm doing now (which is never a good sign) so the call came a a good time. I interviewed and after three days of back to back to back interviews (manager, panel interview, VP) they offered me a job the following day.
I'll be returning to a home based job, travel in the form of driving and covering my territory with some limited over night stays....but by in large I'll be covering Missouri, a touch of southern Illinois....the Paducah area in KY and maybe a bit a Kansas City should the workload demand it. Modest 5% bump in pay which is fine, company vehicle that also can be used as personal, gas card and quarterly bonus's so financially it's a step up for sure. It'll be neat to get back in to the travel and jumping around to job sites after being at this position where I've been tied to a project site everyday.
So....come 3/13 I'll be turning the page on this chapter and firing up another one.
Nice! Congratulations!
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So, after 16 months of being on the other 'side' of the construction industry.....working for a large Regional Contractor as a Project Manager.....I've decided to leave and get back to my 'specialty' and what I've spent most of my professional career doing.....Project Management Healthcare construction. Overseeing the install of Healthcare Equipment, focused on the imaging equipment like MRI's, CT's.....etc etc.
I was contacted by a company (Siemens) at the beginning of February that I had applied to at the same time I applied to my current employer 16 months ago. They had called me a few weeks after I started here to interview but I told them I'd just started a position and wasn't interested. They told me they'd keep my resume on file and call me if anything ever came up. Well, a Project Manager in the St. Louis area is retiring so they called me and asked if I'd be interesting in interviewing. I've been contemplating whether I really like what I'm doing now (which is never a good sign) so the call came a a good time. I interviewed and after three days of back to back to back interviews (manager, panel interview, VP) they offered me a job the following day.
I'll be returning to a home based job, travel in the form of driving and covering my territory with some limited over night stays....but by in large I'll be covering Missouri, a touch of southern Illinois....the Paducah area in KY and maybe a bit a Kansas City should the workload demand it. Modest 5% bump in pay which is fine, company vehicle that also can be used as personal, gas card and quarterly bonus's so financially it's a step up for sure. It'll be neat to get back in to the travel and jumping around to job sites after being at this position where I've been tied to a project site everyday.
So....come 3/13 I'll be turning the page on this chapter and firing up another one.
Nice! Congratulations!
Congrats, sounds like a great opportunity :tup
Thank you fellas! :tup
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So I've generally been content with the job I started back in late 2020 and with my more recent relocation to Florida for it. Well, the first six months were pretty dicey, but then my team got a new manager who's made a world of difference. When random recruiters have reached out on LinkedIn I've just told them I'm not interested in making a change right now. Then my first boss from years ago reached out a couple weeks ago. Long story short, the company we both worked for way back in the day sold off some, but not all of the clients that our team covered, and my boss at the time and most of my coworkers in the local office all got transferred to the new company that had those clients, while I stayed back with the original company to service the clients that they didn't sell. I know that I was thought highly of by my first boss (and his boss), and they have an opening at the company they've been with since the split that they think I'd be great for. It would involve moving back to the NYC area, so I told the HR rep that I would need to be at the top end of the listed range for the position, which would mean a 28-40% salary increase, to account for moving back to a higher cost-of-living area. It would also come with a title boost of two grades from where I currently am (not that titles are 1:1 across different companies). I've gone through a first-round interview, which went well, and have a second round scheduled for Tuesday. The more I mull on this though, the more I'm pretty sure that I'd be happy staying in my current role. I really like my boss and the rest of my team and I'm excited about what we're starting to build. There are some quality of life tradeoffs, my current job wraps up at about 7 each night and the new job would finish earlier most nights, but a bit later for a few nights at the start of every month. It would also mean a longer commute (about 30-45 minutes each way daily). Lastly, part of what made my current job rough at the start was that the team was horribly under-staffed. That's finally been corrected and we've gotten a bunch of great hires in the door in the last 12-18 months. Meanwhile, I feel like I'd be walking into a similar situation with this new role in that they've mentioned the team is currently a little light but also that there's a hiring freeze in place (barring a couple specific positions such as the one I'm applying for). Ideally I would get an offer and just be able to parlay it into a raise here, but I feel like to make that kind of move I have to be comfortable on some level with taking the new role if my current company says "sorry, we can't make a competitive counter" and I just don't know how I feel about that right now.
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Tangentially related question: Are those recruiters that occasionally reach out on LinkedIn legit? How do I know if they are or not?
As for your sitch, I know I'm a bit older than you, so that is real factor, but for me, "quality of life" is so much bigger a factor now than it was in the past. My boss moved on about six months ago, and it was down to me and another woman, and she got the job. My group is a result of a merger, so, predictably, those from my legacy company wanted me, and those from the other company wanted her; the one-over manager is from the other company and I have some (legitimate) reason to believe that this was "preordained" at the time of the merger. It bummed me out a bit, but it turns out, this is a blessing in disguise. She's been wonderful to me, I am in the succession plan, I get to do exactly what I've been doing before without ANY of the admin nonsense of running a group, and I'm at a point where as long as I deliver on my "deliverables" I can basically come and go as I please. My job isn't a cake-walk, and being a support-ish person I sometimes get "those" phone calls (two Fridays ago I was on a call from 4:30 to about 8:30 pm as we finalized a settlement offer) but my job is intellectual in nature; I'm providing guidance and informational input, not creating paperwork, so it's a small price to pay in order to have the flexibility to, say, fly to Dallas and drive my daughter back home without burning a week's vacation to do it. I also get to continue to work out of the house, even as we're sort of doing an unofficial/passive migration back to the office and centralizing in certain locations (nowhere near where I live).
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Tangentially related question: Are those recruiters that occasionally reach out on LinkedIn legit? How do I know if they are or not?
I'm sure like all things, it's not 100%, but some are legit. My fiance is a director of admissions for one of the universities in the state and she got contacted 5 or 6 weeks ago about a near identical position (paying 40% more) opening up for a nursing school that's moving to CT. She's had a handful of interviews, was flown out to Arizona to meet the owners and CEO, and she's expecting to receive the official offer sometime this week. As for avoiding scams, it's probably best to rely on your own due diligence. I imagine they'd be pretty easy to detect after an email or two.
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Tangentially related question: Are those recruiters that occasionally reach out on LinkedIn legit? How do I know if they are or not?
I'm sure like all things, it's not 100%, but some are legit. My fiance is a director of admissions for one of the universities in the state and she got contacted 5 or 6 weeks ago about a near identical position (paying 40% more) opening up for a nursing school that's moving to CT. She's had a handful of interviews, was flown out to Arizona to meet the owners and CEO, and she's expecting to receive the official offer sometime this week. As for avoiding scams, it's probably best to rely on your own due diligence. I imagine they'd be pretty easy to detect after an email or two.
Congrats to Vic!!!
... but my job is intellectual in nature; I'm providing guidance and informational input, not creating paperwork, so it's a small price to pay in order to have the flexibility to, say, fly to Dallas and drive my daughter back home without burning a week's vacation to do it. I also get to continue to work out of the house, even as we're sort of doing an unofficial/passive migration back to the office and centralizing in certain locations (nowhere near where I live).
I'm kinda in the same boat. I'm just over a year into my current job/firm, and the company I left acquired another company - but one that was actually larger (in revenue) as my old company. The team I left is all in shambles - VP is being moved into a new role, people being let go, others being moved into a new tea (from the "acquired" company). It's a shit-show. Makes my move last year (despite the 10% haircut) look VERY serendipitous right now. I love my job (for the most part), love my direct team-mate, have a "boss" that is quite hands off but is always available and offers input and guidance when needed, and have established my trust and credibility across virtually all of the constituents I work with. Some weeks are 30 hours; some weeks are 60 hours, but I largely have the flexibility to dictate that as needed.
If I was to make a jump, I'd have to KNOW that I'm not getting into any kind of chaos - no matter what the pay bump would be.
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So I've generally been content with the job I started back in late 2020 and with my more recent relocation to Florida for it. Well, the first six months were pretty dicey, but then my team got a new manager who's made a world of difference. When random recruiters have reached out on LinkedIn I've just told them I'm not interested in making a change right now. Then my first boss from years ago reached out a couple weeks ago. Long story short, the company we both worked for way back in the day sold off some, but not all of the clients that our team covered, and my boss at the time and most of my coworkers in the local office all got transferred to the new company that had those clients, while I stayed back with the original company to service the clients that they didn't sell. I know that I was thought highly of by my first boss (and his boss), and they have an opening at the company they've been with since the split that they think I'd be great for. It would involve moving back to the NYC area, so I told the HR rep that I would need to be at the top end of the listed range for the position, which would mean a 28-40% salary increase, to account for moving back to a higher cost-of-living area. It would also come with a title boost of two grades from where I currently am (not that titles are 1:1 across different companies). I've gone through a first-round interview, which went well, and have a second round scheduled for Tuesday. The more I mull on this though, the more I'm pretty sure that I'd be happy staying in my current role. I really like my boss and the rest of my team and I'm excited about what we're starting to build. There are some quality of life tradeoffs, my current job wraps up at about 7 each night and the new job would finish earlier most nights, but a bit later for a few nights at the start of every month. It would also mean a longer commute (about 30-45 minutes each way daily). Lastly, part of what made my current job rough at the start was that the team was horribly under-staffed. That's finally been corrected and we've gotten a bunch of great hires in the door in the last 12-18 months. Meanwhile, I feel like I'd be walking into a similar situation with this new role in that they've mentioned the team is currently a little light but also that there's a hiring freeze in place (barring a couple specific positions such as the one I'm applying for). Ideally I would get an offer and just be able to parlay it into a raise here, but I feel like to make that kind of move I have to be comfortable on some level with taking the new role if my current company says "sorry, we can't make a competitive counter" and I just don't know how I feel about that right now.
Would you even want to return to the area up here? You've got enough time down there to know if you like living there or not. I got to imagine that may play a role in your decision. If you like the Florida life, I can't imagine wanting to come back to the NYC mayhem, but then there's also friends/family that could play a role in that.
My parents moved to Jacksonville like 5 or 6 years ago because my dad's job transferred him. They just recently now laid my father off. Now my parents are looking to move back up here (NJ) and I'm a bit shocked because they seemed to love it there. I think they just miss being away from friends/family.
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Relos are weird; though. I've moved too many times to count for work, and lived in Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania (twice), and yet I seem to always find my way back to Connecticut. My brother and parents are/were in Florida, and they always mention how great it is. My company has a main office on the east coast of Florida, so it's do-able. I understand that OBJECTIVELY, the weather is better in the south, I can find places where I'd save tens of thousands of dollars on taxes, etc., but I LIKE New England. I'm used to it, in a way that's more than just "convenience". It's really hard to describe. I think Philly is the only place I'd move at this point, and even the luster on that is waning.
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Relos are weird; though. I've moved too many times to count for work, and lived in Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania (twice), and yet I seem to always find my way back to Connecticut. My brother and parents are/were in Florida, and they always mention how great it is. My company has a main office on the east coast of Florida, so it's do-able. I understand that OBJECTIVELY, the weather is better in the south, I can find places where I'd save tens of thousands of dollars on taxes, etc., but I LIKE New England. I'm used to it, in a way that's more than just "convenience". It's really hard to describe. I think Philly is the only place I'd move at this point, and even the luster on that is waning.
Everyone is wired a little differently when it comes to this, but speaking for myself, I very much relate to this sentiment.
The older I get, the more I 'feel' connected to the ground beneath my feet. Whenever I am away from Northeastern Ohio, I swear I can sense it's gravity ever-so-slightly tugging on my subconscious.
I dunno, I'd need a lot more time (and words) to properly describe what it is, but either way, I think I completely understand why some people are excited to move all around while others are simply content to put down roots and stay put.
That all said, my bones ache 80 percent of the year and I totally suspect that if, God willing, I love long enough, I will someday become a snowbird.
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The weird thing is, I'm proud and happy with the explorations I've done. I ENJOYED living where I did all those years. And I make fun (well, there's other things to make fun of) of my step kids dad, who LITERALLY lives 75 feet from the house he grew up in, and has NEVER lived more than five miles from there. He doesn't know any different. But I feel like I have experienced other places and other vibes, and I just resonate with where I am generally. I know the people (though, less and less) and I know what's being asked of me (though, less and less) and I can live with the compromises I have to make here.
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Relos are weird; though. I've moved too many times to count for work, and lived in Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania (twice), and yet I seem to always find my way back to Connecticut. My brother and parents are/were in Florida, and they always mention how great it is. My company has a main office on the east coast of Florida, so it's do-able. I understand that OBJECTIVELY, the weather is better in the south, I can find places where I'd save tens of thousands of dollars on taxes, etc., but I LIKE New England. I'm used to it, in a way that's more than just "convenience". It's really hard to describe. I think Philly is the only place I'd move at this point, and even the luster on that is waning.
That's because outside of taxes and the occasional snowstorm, CT is a wonderful place to be. And even then.... I just consider the taxes to be the premium required to not be like a lot of the places I'd have no interest in living in. We're sandwiched between NYC and Boston with the ability to get into the heart of either in less than 2 hours. Then there are a half dozen other states within a similar distance that all offer their own unique cultures and experiences. We have great food and parks, beaches, lots of museums and landmarks of true historical significance (I grew up a stone's throw from the the first private law school in the nation), and a nice variety of wildlife. Our summers aren't too scorching, and even with the oddball storm, the winter months are easy to navigate. I've got more golf courses within 30 minutes of me than I can count. Despite being more liberal leaning in a lot of the cities, this state still feels pretty "just do you without being an asshole and you're good". Our utilities are fairly robust and well taken care of, though our highway system is definitely a bit dated. V and I have talked about retiring in DC, but other than that, I haven't the slightest inclination to leave. I love it here.
I know so many people that moved away between the ages of 25-30 who are all slowly making their way back one at a time, especially now that they have kids and want the school systems.
And I make fun (well, there's other things to make fun of) of my step kids dad, who LITERALLY lives 75 feet from the house he grew up in, and has NEVER lived more than five miles from there.
My grandma lived in the same 1 mile radius in Thomaston for her entire life! It's wild to think about.
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100% correct. Couldn't have said it better, honestly.
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Relos are weird; though. I've moved too many times to count for work, and lived in Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania (twice), and yet I seem to always find my way back to Connecticut. My brother and parents are/were in Florida, and they always mention how great it is. My company has a main office on the east coast of Florida, so it's do-able. I understand that OBJECTIVELY, the weather is better in the south, I can find places where I'd save tens of thousands of dollars on taxes, etc., but I LIKE New England. I'm used to it, in a way that's more than just "convenience". It's really hard to describe. I think Philly is the only place I'd move at this point, and even the luster on that is waning.
Everyone is wired a little differently when it comes to this, but speaking for myself, I very much relate to this sentiment.
The older I get, the more I 'feel' connected to the ground beneath my feet. Whenever I am away from Northeastern Ohio, I swear I can sense it's gravity ever-so-slightly tugging on my subconscious.
I dunno, I'd need a lot more time (and words) to properly describe what it is, but either way, I think I completely understand why some people are excited to move all around while others are simply content to put down roots and stay put.
That all said, my bones ache 80 percent of the year and I totally suspect that if, God willing, I love long enough, I will someday become a snowbird.
I think, for many including myself, is it's just simply "there's no place like home" and as much as people love to shit on NJ (and much of that is legit) it's just simply home for me and there's no where else I would rather live. Granted, I haven't really lived anywhere else besides my college years in PA, but I travel enough to get some idea of what else is out there.
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Tangentially related question: Are those recruiters that occasionally reach out on LinkedIn legit? How do I know if they are or not?
As for your sitch, I know I'm a bit older than you, so that is real factor, but for me, "quality of life" is so much bigger a factor now than it was in the past. My boss moved on about six months ago, and it was down to me and another woman, and she got the job. My group is a result of a merger, so, predictably, those from my legacy company wanted me, and those from the other company wanted her; the one-over manager is from the other company and I have some (legitimate) reason to believe that this was "preordained" at the time of the merger. It bummed me out a bit, but it turns out, this is a blessing in disguise. She's been wonderful to me, I am in the succession plan, I get to do exactly what I've been doing before without ANY of the admin nonsense of running a group, and I'm at a point where as long as I deliver on my "deliverables" I can basically come and go as I please. My job isn't a cake-walk, and being a support-ish person I sometimes get "those" phone calls (two Fridays ago I was on a call from 4:30 to about 8:30 pm as we finalized a settlement offer) but my job is intellectual in nature; I'm providing guidance and informational input, not creating paperwork, so it's a small price to pay in order to have the flexibility to, say, fly to Dallas and drive my daughter back home without burning a week's vacation to do it. I also get to continue to work out of the house, even as we're sort of doing an unofficial/passive migration back to the office and centralizing in certain locations (nowhere near where I live).
Yeah, I'm clear on the fact that I'd rather stay in my current job than move to this new opportunity, but moreso wrestling with do I want to try and get an offer from the other company to get a counter offer and a pay raise to stay here. I'm very confident, but not certain that my current employer would make an effort to retain me. I'm also mindful that my current employer is the only game in town in this part of the country and I was considering buying a house here next year and once I do that I basically lose the leverage of being able to find other offers for a while. Just weighing the risk of bringing an offer for them to counter with the knowledge that I don't really want to leave.
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I went through a second round interview for this other job yesterday morning, feeling like there's a decent chance I get an offer sometime next week. The interviewer and I went way over the allotted time talking (interview was scheduled for 30 minutes and lasted closer to 60), and as we were wrapping up he asked me a couple of questions about potential timeline for a relocation back home to the NYC area and what kind of notice my current role would require. I feel like if I had put myself out of the running with my interview then he wouldn't have bothered asking. I feel like I came into the interview process in good shape from the internal recommendations I have and I didn't hurt myself any with my interviews, but I'm also mindful that I'm on the lower end of some of the background requirements while also asking for the very top end of the posted salary range.
That all said, I sat down with a spreadsheet this morning and crunched some numbers. Even if they come in at the exact top # of the range posted, which would correspond to a 41% nominal salary increase, once I deduct the state income taxes I'd have to pay in moving back to NJ from FL and also adjust for the higher cost of living it would be more like only a 13% salary increase. That leaves me of two minds on things. On one hand, it should be very easy for my current company to make a competitive counter offer. In reality they wouldn't even need to match, I'd take whatever increase they could offer. We just had discussions this week about starting a major project next week that I'm expected to lead and I'm the only one on the team with the background and expertise to do so in the US team, so I can't imagine that they wouldn't be able to find something extra to try and keep me. On the other hand, in the minuscule chance they come back and say they can't/don't want to do a counter offer, I'm uprooting my life and taking on the uncertainty of a new job for only a 13% effective salary increase.