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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Skeever on May 02, 2018, 09:58:56 AM
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Looks like in response to some really nasty videos to appear regarding James' voice lately, a vocal coach/teacher just did a really in-depth video about JLB's voice. Was not going to share this until I saw how respectful the host and the material is to James/the band, but there's a lot of good information here which is probably interesting both to fans and to singers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3fGgEciPcI
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Very interesting video - thanks for sharing! :tup I agree that it's well put together and is fact-based instead of based on an emotional response (negative or positive).
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That was a really interesting video, a lot of solid content.
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Can someone summarize for the attention-limited fans here?
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No.
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Okay, just kidding. The gist of it, incredibly simplified, is basically:
-The voice is a delicate instrument, and is the most susceptible to irreversible damage. That inevitably happens over time as the body ages because, physiologically, parts of the body responsible for producing sound inevitably weaken, wear out, and deteriorate. Where a singer takes exceptional care of his instrument, he or she can mitigate those effects and prolong their good singing voice longer. But in the life of a touring rock/metal performer, that's not really realistic. (these points are kind of sprinkled in throughout the video rather than stated outright, and a lot of it also comes from his other videos)
-James is incredibly talented and had an incredibly powerful voice. He also had some very good singing technique in some areas.
-James also used some bad singing techniques in other areas, and those did not do him any favors. In fact, over time, they have worn his voice out and done damage. And...that's normal.
-The fact that James is a touring musician, and made the types of decisions to push through and perform at times he shouldn't have would have inevitably caused damage.
-The food poisoning incident may have contributed, but was just one factor.
-The result, over a very long time, is that, despite still being an incredible singer, James is not physically capable of what he was in the early '90s.
That's it in a nutshell. The dude has a lot of good insight. I cannot really say whether he is right or not, but most of what he says sounds pretty reasonable. He is off on a few things, but I don't think that really changes the validity of his overall point.
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One question that came up twice is whether JLB can recover from where he is now, and his opinion is ... no. His age combined with the accumulative damage means he needs to manage what he has left, by for example downshifting tunes and playing more instrumentals.
One interesting point personally for me was, I entirely agreed with him that the schedule James was/is subjected to is not reasonable. Granted, the economics often dominate the schedule, but to this day they do "An evening with" shows despite James so obviously struggling. I actually kinda liked the old days when DT showcased an up and coming band as a support band, creating a more manageable amount of singing per night.
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One question that came up twice is whether JLB can recover from where he is now, and his opinion is ... no. His age combined with the accumulative damage means he needs to manage what he has left, by for example downshifting tunes and playing more instrumentals.
Well, and I think that, to an extent, what he is saying is logical. But I think we need to take a step back from what "recover" means in that context. I think his point was, "Can James 'recover' and sing like it's 1993 again? No." But that doesn't mean he cannot deliver some really quality performances that may be better than what people were seeing on some of the I&W tour. With shorter sets, appropriate rests, and set lists that don't push him nearly as hard as trying to sing Images & Words, I think he can absolutely sound fantastic. And he has, in recent years, delivered some pretty awesome performances. So I want to temper what you are saying, because it can easily be taken too far and be taken to mean something that guy in the video did not mean. He said repeatedly that James is a great singer and that James can deliver great performances, and that the video is NOT meant to be taken as bashing James or calling for James to call it quits or anything like that.
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Yes, I think I can agree with that. There are definitely videos of I&W shows where you could tell that given decent rest he is still able to deliver a solid performance.
I really hope they take this into account from here on (IMO they should have done so a long time ago). And that includes what they put on disk, I feel they give him vocal lines he can produce in a studio with X takes, but live they just don't make sense.
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Bosk, thank you for the summary. As a non-musician I also feared it would be too technical for me, so if that was the case, thank you for dumbing it down for me.
I feel they give him vocal lines he can produce in a studio with X takes, but live they just don't make sense.
I agree with everything you said, but haven't they been doing this for a long time?
And as a tangent, assuming lots of musicians/groups put things down on record that would be hard to replicate live night in and night out, how much should that factor in to recording an album? Should they say "This are some awesome vocals and will showcase our singer's talents, but it will hurt him in the long run if he does this part live for a long tour, so let's rewrite it?" Or rather, "We can change how he sings it live, or just not do the song, but we should put it on the album as we wrote it."
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I feel they give him vocal lines he can produce in a studio with X takes, but live they just don't make sense.
I agree with everything you said, but haven't they been doing this for a long time?
They have, and in the 90s James was able to push through that, which however is a point the YouTube guy makes, that continuously pushing his voice like that was the more likely reason for his decline, not just the food poisoning.
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Who is Zach Ansley? What does he do?
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Who is Zach Ansley? What does he do?
He's a voice instructor. For a bit of history, there were some very nasty videos about James which had been generating a lot of buzz lately (I won't link to them here) and the guy I linked to had been active in comments and started doing these videos as a more substantial response to that.
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He is a professional voice coach who has (according to him) coached several prog metal singers "people would probably know if I mentioned them".
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He is a professional voice coach who has (according to him) coached several prog metal singers "people would probably know if I mentioned them".
Including Nicky Spanjaards?
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They have, and in the 90s James was able to push through that....
But even then he was often flailing through many of the tougher passages. My opinion, of course. I don't know if it is JLB struggling, or just how he choose to sing live at the the time, but man much of the Live in Tokyo DVD is hard on my ears.
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He is a professional voice coach who has (according to him) coached several prog metal singers "people would probably know if I mentioned them".
Including Nicky Spanjaards?
Now there's a singer who can push through a tough performance.
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Eh, I have never agreed with that.
In the studio, go all out and do the best you can, if you can't reproduce live, oh well.
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Robert Plant almost never sang things the way they were on the album. He saved his voice. Can you imagine what would have happened if he had done multiple tours doing Rock n Roll like it is on the album every night? His voice would have been completely toast before Zeb even broke up. But he played it smart. He came up with a completely different melody for that song, and saved his moments so that he wasn’t constantly in his upper range all night.
But regarding rock singers...I’ve always wondered. Don’t opera singers arguably have an even more difficult job and yet manage to keep their voice into their 50’s? What are opera singers doing that rock singers can’t? There must be a physical “method” that crosses over somehow and can protect the voice by singing “properly”...
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The guy actually uses opera singers as a comparison point. He says that in opera you are never on stage for more than 10 minutes at a time, and then you can rest. Also, classical singing use the voice essentially how it normally works, whereas in rock and metal, with raspiness etc, you put more strain on the voice. He makes the interesting point that despite common myth among rock fans, there is no strain-free way of singing with raspiness.
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And as far as I know, opera singers don't do shows 3-5 times a week. At least not consistently for years on end. To be honest I was quite surprised to hear that James had bad techniques quite some time ago, as over the years I've read interviews with him where he talks about how much he cares about his voice and health, he's had multiple vocal teachers over the years, including classically trained opera singers.
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I don't know if I'm just lucky but I've seen DT on every tour from FII onwards and I can honestly say I've never seen him do a bad show. There are some standout ones that are better than others certainly but I've never come out of a show and said "wow! JLB was really off tonight" and I would say that the Along For The Ride tour and the recent Images & Words tour are both absolute standout performances from him so he can still sound great. The Astonishing Show was maybe a step down from those but I saw the very first performance of that album in London so it's understandable that it was not perfect (the whole band were a bit tentative to be honest apart from Mangini who was incredible).
I can accept that there are youtube videos out there and even some official releases (OIALT & CIM) that sound pretty bad but all I can say is that, in person (and that's all that matters really) he always sounds perfectly good and sometimes absolutely outstanding. I know some will say that this is the heat of the moment and you don't notice mistakes when you're there and enjoying the show, and this may be true, but who cares why he sounds good in person, as long as he does?
If anyone is deciding against going to see DT based on youtube videos, I would strongly suggest you take a chance and see them in the flesh, it sounds infinitely better.
Also meant to say, regarding the long shows, DT shows usually have a lot of lengthy instrumental passages, it's not like he's a pop singer who's constantly up there singing for the whole show. Would be interested to see how much time he actually spends singing in these 3 hour shows.
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I can accept that there are youtube videos out there and even some official releases (OIALT & CIM) that sound pretty bad but all I can say is that, in person (and that's all that matters really) he always sounds perfectly good and sometimes absolutely outstanding. I know some will say that this is the heat of the moment and you don't notice mistakes when you're there and enjoying the show, and this may be true, but who cares why he sounds good in person, as long as he does?
Yeah, same here. Maybe when I'm there in the moment, living the experience, James sounds better to me than he's actually doing, or Petrucci makes a minor mistake that I don't notice. Who cares. I have a critical ear when I am at concerts but if I'm enjoying it that's all that matters. I agree also that while here and there I may have witnessed just ok moments from James, I never walked away from a concert saying "Meh. This night he was really off, I almost didn't enjoy it because of that".
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I don't know if I'm just lucky but I've seen DT on every tour from FII onwards and I can honestly say I've never seen him do a bad show. There are some standout ones that are better than others certainly but I've never come out of a show and said "wow! JLB was really off tonight" and I would say that the Along For The Ride tour and the recent Images & Words tour are both absolute standout performances from him so he can still sound great. The Astonishing Show was maybe a step down from those but I saw the very first performance of that album in London so it's understandable that it was not perfect (the whole band were a bit tentative to be honest apart from Mangini who was incredible).
I can accept that there are youtube videos out there and even some official releases (OIALT & CIM) that sound pretty bad but all I can say is that, in person (and that's all that matters really) he always sounds perfectly good and sometimes absolutely outstanding. I know some will say that this is the heat of the moment and you don't notice mistakes when you're there and enjoying the show, and this may be true, but who cares why he sounds good in person, as long as he does?
If anyone is deciding against going to see DT based on youtube videos, I would strongly suggest you take a chance and see them in the flesh, it sounds infinitely better.
Agreed 100%. And I'll just add that while the things Zach Ansley says in his video seem level-headed, well-reasoned, and pretty fair and well-intentioned, that isn't to say that everything he says is necessarily correct either. As I watched his video, there was a lot that rang true. But some that didn't. And some of his facts were off. Not to take anything away from him, but just to point out that not everything he says should be taken as gospel just because it appears well-reasoned.
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That video was extremely well done, and very respectful of JLB. The guy clearly knows his stuff.
I have seen Dream Theater live from 1998 (summer, opening for Deep Purple) through November 2017 (Images anniversary tour). I have seen great performances, and horrific ones. And while the effort is always there for James, the decline in the quality of his voice IS undeniable. He knows it, I am sure. But I also think the thing to take away from the video is that at this point, it is about maximizing what James has left with his voice. And to be honest, I think James is doing, and will do that moving forward.
Pride is something I personally believe James has in his vocals, and whether stuff is pitch corrected or not (I believe it has been), it's not like JLB wants to do that. He is likely working diligently to maintain what he has, and get his voice to a level that he is proud of. I don't necessarily agree with Zach that James can't improve...I think he can, he just can't get it back to 1993...and that is totally understandable. The human body reacts how it reacts.
The criticism of James from a live perspective is often very unfair. I mean, I saw the Oakland performance of Images and Words -- James had a very rough night. But I've also seen him have incredible performances as well (San Francisco, the opening night of A Dramatic Turn of Events tour comes to mind). I just think its important to be mindful that James is probably reading a lot of this. And what the guy probably needs is encouragement and support, not people ripping him a new one. Criticism of the guy's voice is fair -- we are the paying customer. But you can be critical, respectful, and encouraging at the same time.
Anyway, a very well done video, and I hope the right people in JLB's corner see it.
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I do think James deserves kudos for trying. Even though there are more and more "piped in" vocals in their live show, there are far less than what I've seen from (often times) even younger singers. I saw Tesseract last week, and it was a great show, but I'm certain that half of Dan's vocals - if not more - were canned. Even at their age, DT tour far more extensively than many of their younger peers, and are far more demanding on JLB. So much of DT's material - like Images - leans heavily on James' ability to belt. But I can't say I'm really looking for that in DT's new material, and I can't speak for the rest of the fans, but I'd not be upset at all by hearing a DT album that more played to sustainable singing habits for James (the Astonishing seems like it was very demanding).
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James has always been unfairly treated IMO, being in a band with master musicians who's instruments won't fade with time, his voice becomes the noticeable difference. I've never seen a bad show from him, usually I walk away saying "wow, JLB sounded good" and sometimes the video shows different, but for the most cases he still sounds great on video too. But that doesn't take away from the live experience of his performance. Either way, I've always been a fan and there's legit damage that's been done from time, but I still think he's a great singer.
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Pride is something I personally believe James has in his vocals...
Absolutely. And to add to that, he takes great pains to take care of himself physically and to take care of his voice, and has for a very long time.
The criticism of James from a live perspective is often very unfair.
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I just think its important to be mindful that James is probably reading a lot of this. And what the guy probably needs is encouragement and support, not people ripping him a new one.
Yes, and this is a point that often gets lost. It is easy to forget or not appreciate that, as the front man of a band, James puts himself out there in a very vulnerable positions. Yeah, maybe that "comes with the territory." But still, part of being a good human being is being considerate. James is an artist, and his singing is his craft. Any criticism, especially overly harsh and unfair criticism, has the potential to bother him and be taken personally. It's different than, say, if he were to make all kings of controversial statements in interviews and his stage banter, and then to be called out on his conduct. It is him being criticized for his art that he puts out there for the enjoyment of others. Harsh criticism of that kind of thing can be taken very personally. So, IMO, it should be VERY carefully tempered. More often than not, I think the adage "if you don't have anything nice to say, best not to say anything at all" applies. And it's not about squashing discussion. It's about being considerate of the impact of our words on others. The guy puts out 100% effort on DT's albums and live performances, and doesn't deserve to be picked apart simply because some may not like what he does.
And kind of related to that--
...But you can be critical, respectful, and encouraging at the same time.
Anyway, a very well done video, and I hope the right people in JLB's corner see it.
It is a well-done video. And I think Zach tries to be fair and objective. But...I disagree about people in JLB's corner--and James himself--seeing it. At the end of the day, while the intentions behind it might be good, and it might be fair and objective, the fact that it was even done is a problem. Maybe it shouldn't be. But keep in mind the bigger context. I think James is kind of raw over FAR too much unfair criticism, as discussed above. Put in that context, I think it will understandably be difficult for him to take a video like this, as well-intentioned and as objective as it might be. Maybe that's not on Zach. And maybe, taking a step back, it can be argued that it is on James to take it for how it was intended and to let any negativity roll off. But I think people also need to keep in mind the simple human aspect of it. The unfair bashing has been excessive, and I wouldn't be surprised if it has taken a toll and made James less likely to take ANY criticism of his singing objectively. I wish people would take that into account and be more understanding before they post. And I'm not directing that at people posting here on the forum--but more generally public posting about James.
Anyhow, I've given more than my two cents.
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I really can't find any fault in Zach in producing that video. It is as objective and level-headed as it can be, it is his daily job to judge and criticize (in order to improve) singers, and people kept beleaguering him on Youtube to analyze James' voice. I would say this video is as good an analysis as James will get, because most YT videos are just mudslinging.
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most YT videos are just mudslinging.
It's really sad how harsh people are on him. Like the fan pages dedicated to hating on him. Don't people have better things to do with their time than hating on someone?
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But some that didn't. And some of his facts were off. Not to take anything away from him, but just to point out that not everything he says should be taken as gospel just because it appears well-reasoned.
Like what? To someone that isn't in the know of things like that anything that sounds reasonable rings true. And I'm pretty sure he'd welcome the feedback/discussion.
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I really can't find any fault in Zach in producing that video. It is as objective and level-headed as it can be, it is his daily job to judge and criticize (in order to improve) singers...
No, that's very true. BUT there is a big difference between offering private critique to a singer that has hired you to do so as their coach, and doing it publicly when it has NOT been solicited by the person you are critiquing. There are two issues that make it different: (1) it is unsolicited (by James) and (2) it is public. I'm not slamming him for doing it. I'm just saying that the video isn't free of being problematic just because that is his job and because it may have been done with benign intent and level-headed tone. The element that is perhaps missing is just a general consideration of, "even if this is his job, and even if it may be pretty objective and level-headed, how is it likely to be received by James himself?"
Look, I'm not saying we can't have discussion of public figures. I'm just saying that we still do need to be careful and considerate, that's all. And I'm also not saying Zach necessarily wasn't. I don't think Zach is necessarily part of the "problem." I think the problem is more that he felt obligated to do it because people kept beleaguering him on Youtube to analyze James' voice in the first place.
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But some that didn't. And some of his facts were off. Not to take anything away from him, but just to point out that not everything he says should be taken as gospel just because it appears well-reasoned.
Like what? To someone that isn't in the know of things like that anything that sounds reasonable rings true. And I'm pretty sure he'd welcome the feedback/discussion.
Oh, sure. I'm not saying he was intentionally inaccurate or anything. But just that not everything actually was accurate. For instance, he attempts to address James' performance on the Octavarium tour, and Score in particular. He makes the point that Score was obviously overdubbed, and you can tell if you compare fan recordings to the final product that James wasn't nearly as "on" as the final product indicates. Well, yeah, if you compare fan recordings of the show, you WILL find differences. But his assessment of the fan recordings is not accurate because, other than a few patches here and there, as is common with almost ANY live release by any band, those fan recordings reveal that James most decided was ON for that show.
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Yeah, just finished watching this whole video, overall really good stuff. The guy is clearly very knowledgeable when it comes to the voice.
I agree with Bosk that his Score comments kinda were a little weird, and that coupled with his mention of auto-tune and pitch correction (along with his comments about the topic below the video) show that he doesn't know much about actual modern audio production. I think he'd be better suited to stick to the topic he knows more about which is vocal technique. For instance, there's a difference between auto-tune and pitch correction. He seems to blur the two together. Not even sure it's worth discussing pitch correction, at this point, every professionally recorded and mixed vocal is pitch corrected here and there. That's like pointing out that his voice is EQ'd in the studio, it's a pretty safe assumption all singers in all bands are now a days.
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And to add, regarding his assessment of vocal technique and such, even where he is accurate, I'm just saying that, despite his obvious depth of knowledge, his conclusions are ultimately opinions. They aren't gospel. There is significant disagreement among vocal coaches and in the medical field about the toll different things take on the voice, how and to what extent the body/voice can recover from damage, etc. His opinions are well supported and well articulated. They just shouldn't be taken as fact, that's all.
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It gets old when we read the flame throwing comments and haters on YouTube or anywhere else about musicians. Are people that miserable in life where they feel they need to slam these people over and over? I'm a drummer and I'm amazed that many people hate on Neil Peart. Really? You get up there, BE ORIGINAL, and play that well for 40 years. Jealous? Maybe. But it's something deeper than that.
With James, he's got incredible talent. Sure, he's not what he once was but for Pete's sake, he's got one of the most distinguishable voices and has been going at it for a long time. If you don't like his voice or the way he sings, that's fine. You're allowed to have a preference. But it goes over the line when it's a constant bash fest.
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The internet has given everyone a voice and an audience, regardless of whether you have a productive message or not.
This video was made as a result of an on-going barrage of videos from a certain individual who's attacking James (and the band and anyone in the fandom who supports the band) very harshly.
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This video was made as a result of an on-going barrage of videos from a certain individual who's attacking James (and the band and anyone in the fandom who supports the band) very harshly.
Well, shouldn't then a "STFU, GTFO" gif be more than enough in that case? :lol
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You can try - youll probably be the target of an endless barrage of attacks yourself then.
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And to add, regarding his assessment of vocal technique and such, even where he is accurate, I'm just saying that, despite his obvious depth of knowledge, his conclusions are ultimately opinions. They aren't gospel. There is significant disagreement among vocal coaches and in the medical field about the toll different things take on the voice, how and to what extent the body/voice can recover from damage, etc. His opinions are well supported and well articulated. They just shouldn't be taken as fact, that's all.
That should be obvious since he points out 3 different times that what he says is his "theory". Not sure he used that exact same word but he clearly states it more than once, and he also says that since he's not a doctor what he says shouldn't be taken as a 100% accurate medical reference.
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Yes, it should be obvious. But I still feel obligated to point out that which should be obvious regardless, simply because it isn't always obvious to everyone.
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It strikes me as unfortunate that instead of addressing any specific points made by the video, most here are busying picking away at the credentials of the guy who made it.
I don't know if Zach Ansley is the greatest or most educated vocalist in the world, but he certainly has some knowledge and credentials and basis for what he's talking about, which is more than most can say of themselves on this topic. And more importantly, he provided some real, substantial content which is far more interesting to me than just trying to undermine the guy who made the video himself or launching into some tirade about how sad it is that "everyone on the internet has a voice these days".
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I don't think anyone here is really "picking away at" anything. I think most, if not all, have said it is a well-reasoned set of opinions. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that, at the end of the day, they are still however only opinions, whether they are well-supported and well-reasoned or not. That isn't a slight on Ansley or his work in the video.
But as to his credentials themselves, I don't know what they actually are. And I'm not sure anyone else in the thread does either. I mean, he says he has coached some well-known artists. But as far as I know, he doesn't say who they are, and I don't think any of us know that, do we? His arguments in the video suggest that he has a good amount of knowledge as a vocal coach. But, again, I have no idea what his actual credentials are. Maybe he is highly qualified to opine on the issues in that video. Maybe he isn't and just talks a good game. I honestly don't know and don't have an opinion either way. But I don't think anyone here has attacked or tried to undermine his credentials at all. I think you are misunderstanding and perhaps being a bit defensive.
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I think you’re misunderstanding something here. I wasn’t making a dig at Zach - far from it. I know very well who he is, and his credentials. He’s the real deal. Pretty sure you can find videos of his vocal performances from his education days still on YouTube.
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I think you’re misunderstanding something here. I wasn’t making a dig at Zach - far from it. I know very well who he is, and his credentials. He’s the real deal. Pretty sure you can find videos of his vocal performances from his education days still on YouTube.
My misunderstanding, then. I did go back and read your post and realized you were talking about Ravenskill.
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This video was made as a result of an on-going barrage of videos from a certain individual who's attacking James (and the band and anyone in the fandom who supports the band) very harshly.
That was the first thing that crossed my mind after seeing the video. It's my impression that on the last two tours James was a bit more criticized than earlier. I remember it was pretty much all praise during ADTOE and DT12 tours. That might be why the harsh videos gained a few more followers than they would have had they occured five years ago. Hopefully some of those people will take a look into an insightful, intelligent and constructive analysis for a change, because I feel Zach puts it across very eloquently and with great argumentation.
It's important that there have always been plenty of complimentary videos on youtube over the years, too. Does anyone remember the "James LaBrie nailing it" compilations that were around a while ago?
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Hello everyone! I am at work on my cell phone, so there is no way I will have time to address every single post here. First off though, I want to thank all of you for being respectful and supportive in your responses to my video. This topic really is dear to my heart, as I have built my life and career upon helping others improve their voices and helping curb bad habits and sustain vocal health and longevity.
To curtail some of the questions about my credentials - I am a voice teacher at The Music Studio at Vinings in Atlanta Georgia. I formerly taught at the Columbia Arts Academy and Lexington School of Music in Columbia, South Carolina. I studied Vocal Performance at Augusta State University (Now known simply as Augusta University) in Augusta Georgia under the tutelage of Dr. J. William Hobbins. I've been in formal voice study for 15 years, and I have been teaching professionally for 3 years. I have had hundreds of students from all facets of music, from Onur Coblanogu, Turkish contestant on The Voice, to Robert Edens and Myles Yang of Native Construct, to many Atlanta based performers and songwriters.
My passion is understanding and implementing healthy vocal habits, and I make absolute certain to ensure that my commentary is based upon peer reviewed, known facts about the vocal mechanism. While it is true that there is more than one way to skin a cat with regards to vocal health, there are undeniable truisms with regard to the larynx, various methods of resonance, and the effect of tension and strain of the mechanism over time.
With regards to conflating the term autotune and pitch correction - while I have sung in studio settings a fair amount, I also in no way claim to be an expert on production. I lumped the two terms together for the sake of simplifying my content for the unknowing audience. I do the same with regards to the finer details of the singing mechanism. I don't want to overwhelm my audience with too much jargon. I also specifically mention that modern production practices treat recordings more like a composition or production than a recording, which is why techniques like pitch correction are so prevalent. My overarching point was to show that James' bad habits have been prevalent even throughout times that the live recordings have been adjusted to show otherwise. I also address, in detail, the reason that James seems to sound better live than on handheld recordings.
I made the video to hopefully provide a more academically based, objective approach to listening to James sing - so as to temper the expectations of the fan boys and to give a different, possibly more empathetic perspective to the hardcore bashers/haters. I do hope I achieve that goal.
At any rate, I just wanted to drop in and clarify some things. Feel free to ask me any questions you have about the subject or the video. :)
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I made the video to hopefully provide a more academically based, objective approach to listening to James sing - so as to temper the expectations of the fan boys and to give a different, possibly more empathetic perspective to the hardcore bashers/haters. I do hope I achieve that goal.
Yeah, good luck with that. Some of us are neither, though. I'll check out the video later and you'll probably inform the hell out of me.
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Thanks for posting, Zach. Glad to have you here to answer questions and for us to get info directly from the
horse's--er...vocal instructor's--mouth. :)
I made the video to hopefully provide a more academically based, objective approach to listening to James sing - so as to temper the expectations of the fan boys and to give a different, possibly more empathetic perspective to the hardcore bashers/haters. I do hope I achieve that goal.
^I like this part of your post quite a bit. I can appreciate your perspective on why you made the video. And I definitely DO think you achieved your goal. And I also think it was respectfully done, which is important.
I do confess that I bristle a bit at statements like "there are undeniable truisms with regard to the larynx, various methods of resonance, and the effect of tension and strain of the mechanism over time." I am not saying you are wrong. I wouldn't presume to do so. But--hopefully I am saying this well enough to not be misinterpreted--I guess I just resist the idea that, when it comes to the human body and how it works, that we can say such things with such seeming absolute certainty. I mean, yeah, we understand a lot in this day and age. But we don't understand everything. And well-established experts still can disagree with one another, and can get things absolutely wrong. Not directly related to this discussion, but in my lifetime, experts swore that, after extensive, peer-reviewed research, it was indisputable that margarine is a healthy choice that is MUCH better for the human body than butter. Nowadays, we know that it is one of the worst things you can put in your body. :lol Knowledge changes. And things that are indisputable one day are proven wrong or inconclusive the next.
Anyhow, that said, please don't misunderstand--I have a great amount of respect for your knowledge base, and a great deal of appreciation for your opinions and your explanations at how you arrived at them. Keep up the good work. :tup
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Thanks for posting Zach. I haven't watched the video (I think it's going to be above my head) but I appreciate someone putting some actual thought and analysis (especially from a SME) to JLB and not just bashing him.
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Glad you're joining us Zach - I really appreciate you taking the time (no pun intended) to make that video to try to explain things. :tup For someone like me who has no voice training, there were some things that went over my head a bit, but overall I understood everything.
And for those of you who haven't watched the video, I encourage you to do so. It's a little long, but very informative and worth the time. If you're like me, you'll walk away with a better understanding of what happens to a vocalist over time.
I'm definitely looking forward to more of Zach's videos, be it about JL or other vocalists, since the responses I've seen on YT have requested more background about others too.
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Big love here for James. I love his tone. His voice just connects with me emotionally. Even on the DT output i dislike (TA and TOT, for example) he brings a very genuine quality to proceedings.
One of the all time greats for me.
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JLB never belts the F#5 in Learning To Live though, that would sound awful. He always switches into another voice for the last note and it sounds good every time.
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He definitely does. If you are interested, I could take a few minutes and demonstrate to you the differences on skype in the next couple of days.
The clip I use in my video is one of him using reinforced falsetto, which is the far healthier approach than he uses today.
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https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/dream_theaters_james_labrie_opens_up_on_how_vocal_rupture_affected_him_it_was_a_very_dark_period.html
"For example, when we finished this last tour in December, we have been out just shy of two years touring. So that's a lot of shows and each night it's three hours. And what happened to me a couple of times on the tour, I got pretty sick. Like sinus infection, bad colds, flu, stuff like that. And then nowadays it doesn't matter when you go out and then you say, 'I'm only gonna sing 80%, I gotta really watch myself here because I'm a sicker than a dog.'
"You've got trolls out on the internet and they're going, 'What the fuck is wrong with LaBrie?!' And you're just sitting there... At the end of the day, you're still a human being, you've got feelings in your life. You get upset, you're going, 'You have no fucking idea what I was going through.'
"It's an organic instrument and you're trying to get the best of it. And it doesn't matter what singer I've talked to in the world, they've all gone through it and they've all had their acrimonious people that were cutting them up left, right, and center. And it's a freaking horrible situation.
"But the way I look at it is like, 'Whatever...' You're not gonna satisfy everyone. They don't necessarily have to know what you're going through. If that makes them feel better by criticizing someone when they're down - so be it. I hope to never sit around and I hope to never meet them because someone like that is just shallow as far as I'm concerned.
"You know what? We've picked our instrument right. And I stand behind it 100%. We're not gonna be 100% capacity all the time but if you can sit back and say to yourself, 'For the most part I'm there,' then that's all that matters."
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Looks like it lines up pretty well with what I said in the video.
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In the 90's he used a mixed voice for the note, nowadays he uses reinforced falsetto, similar to how vocalists like Brian Johnson and Axl Rose use it to disguise their head voice into sounding chesty.
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Well, usually vocal coach / trainers actually can sing and know how to sing (correctly). Not knowing how to sing is the exception, not the rule.
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Thanks for posting Zach, I was the one that mentioned the auto-tune vs. pitch correction comment... Just a little constructive criticism/observation, no big deal. Like I said before, overall I really enjoyed the video, and I think you shared some really good insight.
Question for you - would you consider doing a video where you played clips of James singing either live (concert CD or DVD) or in the studio and broke down the different things he was doing or not doing and how that was changing his delivery? Just a thought. Thanks again for posting.
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In the 90's he used a mixed voice for the note, nowadays he uses reinforced falsetto, similar to how vocalists like Brian Johnson and Axl Rose use it to disguise their head voice into sounding chesty.
Can you show me some examples? Maybe I haven't seen the right videos to demonstrate this.
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Thanks for posting, Zach. Glad to have you here to answer questions and for us to get info directly from the horse's--er...vocal instructor's--mouth. :)
I do confess that I bristle a bit at statements like "there are undeniable truisms with regard to the larynx, various methods of resonance, and the effect of tension and strain of the mechanism over time." I am not saying you are wrong. I wouldn't presume to do so. But--hopefully I am saying this well enough to not be misinterpreted--I guess I just resist the idea that, when it comes to the human body and how it works, that we can say such things with such seeming absolute certainty. I mean, yeah, we understand a lot in this day and age. But we don't understand everything. And well-established experts still can disagree with one another, and can get things absolutely wrong. Not directly related to this discussion, but in my lifetime, experts swore that, after extensive, peer-reviewed research, it was indisputable that margarine is a healthy choice that is MUCH better for the human body than butter. Nowadays, we know that it is one of the worst things you can put in your body. :lol Knowledge changes. And things that are indisputable one day are proven wrong or inconclusive the next.
I see where you're coming from, and I want to stress that I am not suggesting that our understanding of the voice will never change. If some new, better analysis develops about the voice and the way that it works, I will catch up on it and adjust my views accordingly. I would be remiss as an educator if I didn't do that.
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Zach, I'm curious about your take on something related to passages like the one you reference above in Learning To Live. Actually, as I am typing and thinking my point through, it is more about how other things take a toll on being able to execute passages like those, but still. Let me get there... :)
So, when I think about passages like the buildup to the F# in Learning To Live, it strikes me how simultaneously difficult and impressively vocal-friendly that passage is. The F# is extremely challenging for most vocalists, especially since, when sung properly, the singer not only hits it, but sustains the note. At the same time, as you have pointed out, it is such a well-constructed passage that allows such a nice buildup that is actually quite friendly to the singer and helps with the transition you mention. But still, it is a challenging passage.
To me, there is an additional challenge in a live setting of that song, and consequently, that passage, coming toward the end of an already very challenging set.
Part of the challenge lies not only with the fact that the sets are long, but also with the fact that they are filled with plenty of other VERY challenging vocal passages, many of which are NOT well-written from a standpoint of being "singer-friendly." Take Metropolis, pt. I, for example. It is a great song. And one that was a fantastic vocal performance one the album, where James had the luxury of multiple takes, rests, and being able to punch in isolated lines (as all singers do in the studio environment). But the entire second verse/bridge leading up to the instrumental can be EXTREMELY hard to deliver. Even making some of the changes James typically makes in a live setting, there is little space to breathe and get proper breath support to sing well. This leads James to push and do other things that are probably bad for his voice (as I think just about any singer would in that passage). I believe this tires his voice significantly, which can then lead to other less favorable techniques later in the set, which then impacts passages like the F# buildup in LTL. On the LSFNY set and the recent I&W tour, James has had to deal with that very challenge. And even on other tours with completely different sets, there are similar passage that have vocal passages that, even with James trying to adjust them in a live setting, just aren't not singer-friendly and cause him to tire.
What is your take on that? (sorry if the question is vague and/or broad; hopefully, you see where I am going)
EDIT: And I edited the quote tags on your previous post for you, since they made the quotes appear incorrectly. Forum coding can be a pain. :)
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Zach, I'm curious about your take on something related to passages like the one you reference above in Learning To Live. Actually, as I am typing and thinking my point through, it is more about how other things take a toll on being able to execute passages like those, but still. Let me get there... :)
So, when I think about passages like the buildup to the F# in Learning To Live, it strikes me how simultaneously difficult and impressively vocal-friendly that passage is. The F# is extremely challenging for most vocalists, especially since, when sung properly, the singer not only hits it, but sustains the note. At the same time, as you have pointed out, it is such a well-constructed passage that allows such a nice buildup that is actually quite friendly to the singer and helps with the transition you mention. But still, it is a challenging passage.
To me, there is an additional challenge in a live setting of that song, and consequently, that passage, coming toward the end of an already very challenging set.
Part of the challenge lies not only with the fact that the sets are long, but also with the fact that they are filled with plenty of other VERY challenging vocal passages, many of which are NOT well-written from a standpoint of being "singer-friendly." Take Metropolis, pt. I, for example. It is a great song. And one that was a fantastic vocal performance one the album, where James had the luxury of multiple takes, rests, and being able to punch in isolated lines (as all singers do in the studio environment). But the entire second verse/bridge leading up to the instrumental can be EXTREMELY hard to deliver. Even making some of the changes James typically makes in a live setting, there is little space to breathe and get proper breath support to sing well. This leads James to push and do other things that are probably bad for his voice (as I think just about any singer would in that passage). I believe this tires his voice significantly, which can then lead to other less favorable techniques later in the set, which then impacts passages like the F# buildup in LTL. On the LSFNY set and the recent I&W tour, James has had to deal with that very challenge. And even on other tours with completely different sets, there are similar passage that have vocal passages that, even with James trying to adjust them in a live setting, just aren't not singer-friendly and cause him to tire.
What is your take on that? (sorry if the question is vague and/or broad; hopefully, you see where I am going)
EDIT: And I edited the quote tags on your previous post for you, since they made the quotes appear incorrectly. Forum coding can be a pain. :)
I completely understand the question, and I am going to offer a response that you probably wouldn't expect if you aren't a singer yourself:
NEVER, and I mean NEVER, let an instrumentalist write your vocal lines for you. There is historical precedence for this answer. It comes in the form of one of the greatest musical minds that the world has ever seen: Johann Sebastian Bach. While being a prodigious genius, and while being able to play 20 or so instruments fluently, he couldn't sing. At all. As a result, he had no idea how to write vocal lines for his singers that took into account things like feasible intervals, registration changes, proper ranges for voice types, and ESPECIALLY giving singers a chance to breathe. His music is rife with melismas (strings of notes on one syllable, pop singers call them 'riffs' and 'runs') that are essentially impossible to be sung in one breath. He also treated the voice like an instrument that can be manipulated in the same way that, for example, a violin could.
As a personal anecdote, I had the distinct displeasure of performing his Quia Fecit Mihi Magna, and that is one recording that will never see the light of day, because I am certain that I butchered it. It felt practically impossible to sing, and I never quite got a grasp on how to just freaking figure out where to breathe. This is about as good of a performance of the piece you are going to find, and even in this he took some shortcuts on breathing to make it easier (The orchestra adjusted tempos to give him time to breathe in places that the music doesn't allow for): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZEUjC53upA Classical singers everywhere share my sentiments toward his music, and studying his pieces is a great way to learn why the singer should ALWAYS be in control of the process of writing vocal lines. Metropolis was written before JLB joined the band, and Charlie Dominici effectively sung the song with a similar melodic approach to James, which suggests that it wasn't written by either of them, and rather one of the other members of the band, who, lets face it, aren't exactly concert caliber singers. I think that any time a singer is forced to sing something that wasn't written with the singer in mind it is easy to run into problems.
I hope that answers the question a bit. Just think about the inverse. If you play an instrument, imagine a singer who had no knowledge of your instrument essentially pushing a part on you that took no consideration of the capabilities of you or your instrument. Singers run into that a lot, actually.
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I think we can see many examples of that with Iron Maiden. There are so many Steve Harris songs where the singer is supposed to spit out a thousand words per second that it's borderline annoying :lol
Really, James should be the one writing all of his vocal lines, or making any change he deems necessary.
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IIRC, when you take the composer career track at Berklee, you have to take all these classes on the different instruments, to know what comes naturally to them and what is unplayable, so you can write good lines for them.
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I completely understand the question, and I am going to offer a response that you probably wouldn't expect if you aren't a singer yourself:
NEVER, and I mean NEVER, let an instrumentalist write your vocal lines for you.
[...and lots of other really cool stuff]
Ha! Yeah, I totally get that. That was basically my point behind the question. As a singer myself (although a very amateur one with very little formal training), I completely get what you are saying. As you trace the band's evolution, it is interesting to observe how prevalent those types of problematic vocal passages are on the first two albums (Only a Matter of Time, Light Fuse and Get Away, Metropolis, Take the Time, just to name a few), and how we see the band apparently gradually start to "get it" that those types of passages aren't sustainable for a singer and to move away from them down the road.
My question was actually a bit more specific though, but my fault for not wording it more clearly. What you posted was a lot of awesome detail behind what I was assuming as the backdrop for my question. Taking what you said above as a given, what is your take on how having those types of songs, even if only a few, in an already-challenging set can wear out his voice in a live setting, and then basically force him into using not-so-good-for-you technique on passages that aren't so challenging, just because his voice is already too tired to sing them properly (like the F# buildup in LTL)?
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I completely understand the question, and I am going to offer a response that you probably wouldn't expect if you aren't a singer yourself:
NEVER, and I mean NEVER, let an instrumentalist write your vocal lines for you.
[...and lots of other really cool stuff]
Ha! Yeah, I totally get that. That was basically my point behind the question. As a singer myself (although a very amateur one with very little formal training), I completely get what you are saying. As you trace the band's evolution, it is interesting to observe how prevalent those types of problematic vocal passages are on the first two albums (Only a Matter of Time, Light Fuse and Get Away, Metropolis, Take the Time, just to name a few), and how we see the band apparently gradually start to "get it" that those types of passages aren't sustainable for a singer and to move away from them down the road.
My question was actually a bit more specific though, but my fault for not wording it more clearly. What you posted was a lot of awesome detail behind what I was assuming as the backdrop for my question. Taking what you said above as a given, what is your take on how having those types of songs, even if only a few, in an already-challenging set can wear out his voice in a live setting, and then basically force him into using not-so-good-for-you technique on passages that aren't so challenging, just because his voice is already too tired to sing them properly (like the F# buildup in LTL)?
There is a famous anecdote that should answer this question pretty well.
Placido Domingo was one week away from performing Di Quella Pira in Verdi's Il Travtore. The cast had practiced the opera many many times, but Domingo would always stop before the infamous high C in the piece.
Finally, 6 days before the performance, the conductor, upon Domingo stopping at the note, threw his baton and yelled angrily "Placido! When will we get your C?", to which he responded:
"Maestro. I will give you a high C. You can choose if you want it now or on opening night."
The moral of the story is that no practice is worth a performance. Taking care of your instrument is more important than using it at the whim of other people. The truth is that the voice simply isn't built to do what James does, and there is no way to mitigate it without a)holding back, which will result in a subpar performance, or b) performing less frequently.
I actually think that their most vocally demanding song is Another Day because the tessitura of the song is just consistently in the stratosphere, and the lower parts are sung with a heavily covered or breathy sound. I've never seen a performance of it where I felt like he was managing the demand of it particularly efficiently. After a certain period of time, if I were his voice coach I would tell him to either remove that song from his repertoire entirely or drastically lower the key. Those are really the only options that are feasible to keep his voice intact for an entire show. Possibly moving them to the back of the setlist could help, but even then it will still cause the same, or possibly even more strain than it would otherwise.
If Placido only has one good high C, do you want it when he is fresh, and possibly hurt the performance as a whole, or do you want it after hours of practice, when it may not be as strong, but the rest of the performance won't be affected?
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I actually think that their most vocally demanding song is Another Day because the tessitura of the song is just consistently in the stratosphere, and the lower parts are sung with a heavily covered or breathy sound. I've never seen a performance of it where I felt like he was managing the demand of it particularly efficiently. After a certain period of time, if I were his voice coach I woild tell him to either remove that song from his repertoire entirely lr drastically lower the key.
You are not the only one on this forum to have said that very thing. But you are now one of two people. ;)
...well, except for the fact that I have never in my life uttered the term "tessitura," because if not for the context of what we are talking about, I wouldn't have the first clue what it means. :lol
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1992.04.10 - Dream Theater - Another Day (Long Island) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uMGJFdIGLU) - this is the best live performance of Another Day I've ever heard. Whether it sounding great also equates to him handling it 'efficiently', as a layman - I don't know :biggrin: What I do know is, if I had a time machine I'd be going back to this particular show, it's an absolutely incredible vocal performance the whole night!
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To me, Take The Time is the one where I feel they should have sat down before the tour and discussed what they do about it. It had already been retired for good reason from the setlists, and James was left to invent new lines while being on tour, on the fly. I think an equally as good set of lines, much more in his current range, could have been found before the beginning of the tour. I mean, James must have known what would happen live trying to sing that song.
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BTW, Zach, got any professional opinion on James' vibrato? From my perception he seems to have changed it, to be much "wider" for lack of a better term. Is that just an outcome of age, or a conscious choice? I've always wondered.
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BTW, Zach, got any professional opinion on James' vibrato? From my perception he seems to have changed it, to be much "wider" for lack of a better term. Is that just an outcome of age, or a conscious choice? I've always wondered.
James' vibrato is manufactured. Natural vibrato is formed when the folds fully close and the adduct/abduct motion creates an oscillation on the outside of the folds. However - this requires phonation that is essentially perfectly coordinated, as full chord closure is a byproduct of a well proportioned ratio of breath to air, combined with an even flow of air through the glottis. James' vibrato in his early years was a byproduct of buildups of subglottal pressure, and over time it has become manufactured by literally manipulating the pitch throughout its duration. Typically a 'wide' vibrato is a result of the pitch being manually moved, rather than the natural oscillation.
Sorry that was so wordy, but that's the most basic response I can give to that question. Vibrato should never be a 'conscious choice'. It is a natural byproduct of healthy singing.
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IIRC, when you take the composer career track at Berklee, you have to take all these classes on the different instruments, to know what comes naturally to them and what is unplayable, so you can write good lines for them.
This may be true, but unless you know all of the intricate detail of the various fachs of singing then it is easy to write pieces that are inappropriate for voice types. The voice types go far more in depth than simply 'soprano, alto, tenor, bass'. Bass-baritone, lyric baritone, lyric tenor, spinto tenor, contralto, mezzo soprano, coloratura soprano... and it just goes on and on.
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I actually think that their most vocally demanding song is Another Day because the tessitura of the song is just consistently in the stratosphere, and the lower parts are sung with a heavily covered or breathy sound. I've never seen a performance of it where I felt like he was managing the demand of it particularly efficiently. After a certain period of time, if I were his voice coach I woild tell him to either remove that song from his repertoire entirely lr drastically lower the key.
You are not the only one on this forum to have said that very thing. But you are now one of two people. ;)
...well, except for the fact that I have never in my life uttered the term "tessitura," because if not for the context of what we are talking about, I wouldn't have the first clue what it means. :lol
Tessitura is like a 'mean' pitch of a piece of music. For example, if the piece uses a middle C more frequently than the other pitches, and stays in the range of that pitch for the majority of the piece, you would say that the tessitura of the piece hangs around middle C.
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1992.04.10 - Dream Theater - Another Day (Long Island) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uMGJFdIGLU) - this is the best live performance of Another Day I've ever heard. Whether it sounding great also equates to him handling it 'efficiently', as a layman - I don't know :biggrin: What I do know is, if I had a time machine I'd be going back to this particular show, it's an absolutely incredible vocal performance the whole night!
Actually, upon listening to this I hear some major signs of vocal fatigue creep in toward the end. He also displays a lot of extraneous facial tension when he sings the high notes at the end, whereas he was using a mix on the voice for the most part of the first half. If anything as a voice coach it tells me that James tends to have a habit of dropping his technique as a piece progresses. Now, why, I'm not sure, but this performance is a good example of him not maintaining his technique throughout the song's duration, which led ultimately to much greater fatigue by the end of it.
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To me, Take The Time is the one where I feel they should have sat down before the tour and discussed what they do about it. It had already been retired for good reason from the setlists, and James was left to invent new lines while being on tour, on the fly. I think an equally as good set of lines, much more in his current range, could have been found before the beginning of the tour. I mean, James must have known what would happen live trying to sing that song.
I agree that this song clearly wasn't written with a singer's voice in mind. James probably felt capable of doing it at the time, so he stuck with it, but those are the kinds of decisions that can affect your career long-term.
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That Another Day video is interesting in that James isn't the only one who sounds "younger" there. JP's playing is buttery smooth and he plays his runs with ease. These days they're a bit more belabored.
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I thought that video was interesting. I don't really agree with the implied sense that James should somehow be taken to task or given a hard time for the state of his voice, or that the main reason it's "OK" for DT not to replace him is because it's so late in their career.
To me, a lot of the issues discussed in the video are things that were outside of James' control, unless he was going to quit the band or risk being dismissed.
The food poisoning incident - was he really going to try to force them to cancel the tour?
Singing night after night, more than 5 minutes at a time without a rest. Is he going to say no? How are they supposed to tour?
Bad technique - he likely didn't have a vocal coach from the very beginning (but someone correct me if I'm wrong), so I'm sure it's the norm, rather than an exception, for a metal singer to have some bad habits. But then he did get a vocal coach, and it sounds like he probably followed her advice from what he's said in interviews, and I think he was putting in the effort to doing the right thing.
I've often heard that it's possible to sing with grit or rasp without hurting your voice. If that's not true, it's certainly not common knowledge. He probably didn't know it. Most probably didn't. And even then - that's what many of "us" - metal fans - want. Was he going to tell JP and MP "no, I'm not singing like that." I personally like all of the facets of his voice - clean and high, breathy, raspy and high, raspy and heavy, etc. It's what the band wanted and what a lot of fans like to hear. So I don't think he's "to blame" as far as that goes. And interesting side question - let's say we all believe that any kind of rasp hurts your voice - do we want singers to stop doing it?
He says that people are often more lenient towards singers than other musicians like it's a bad thing, but I think we should be. We ask a lot of metal singers.
And finally - and the biggest reason I think there's no need to get all on his case - he sounds great live and in person. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone walk out of a show talking about how awesome LaBrie was, I'd have a lot more money than if I got a dollar for every time someone said he sounded bad. If the show sounds good while you're there, that's the show. It *was* good. I've been to other shows where the singer sounded bad in person, and that's a whole different story.
YouTube, as far as I'm concerned, is just a bonus - something fun.
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I thought that video was interesting. I don't really agree with the implied sense that James should somehow be taken to task or given a hard time for the state of his voice, or that the main reason it's "OK" for DT not to replace him is because it's so late in their career.
To me, a lot of the issues discussed in the video are things that were outside of James' control, unless he was going to quit the band or risk being dismissed.
The food poisoning incident - was he really going to try to force them to cancel the tour?
Singing night after night, more than 5 minutes at a time without a rest. Is he going to say no? How are they supposed to tour?
Bad technique - he likely didn't have a vocal coach from the very beginning (but someone correct me if I'm wrong), so I'm sure it's the norm, rather than an exception, for a metal singer to have some bad habits. But then he did get a vocal coach, and it sounds like he probably followed her advice from what he's said in interviews, and I think he was putting in the effort to doing the right thing.
I've often heard that it's possible to sing with grit or rasp without hurting your voice. If that's not true, it's certainly not common knowledge. He probably didn't know it. Most probably didn't. And even then - that's what many of "us" - metal fans - want. Was he going to tell JP and MP "no, I'm not singing like that." I personally like all of the facets of his voice - clean and high, breathy, raspy and high, raspy and heavy, etc. It's what the band wanted and what a lot of fans like to hear. So I don't think he's "to blame" as far as that goes. And interesting side question - let's say we all believe that any kind of rasp hurts your voice - do we want singers to stop doing it?
He says that people are often more lenient towards singers than other musicians like it's a bad thing, but I think we should be. We ask a lot of metal singers.
And finally - and the biggest reason I think there's no need to get all on his case - he sounds great live and in person. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone walk out of a show talking about how awesome LaBrie was, I'd have a lot more money than if I got a dollar for every time someone said he sounded bad. If the show sounds good while you're there, that's the show. It *was* good. I've been to other shows where the singer sounded bad in person, and that's a whole different story.
YouTube, as far as I'm concerned, is just a bonus - something fun.
I would bet my entire career on the notion that there is no healthy way to sing with rasp or with growling. Every single Youtube 'voice coach' that I have seen that advocates 'safe' ways to growl either have shoddy credentials or shoddier science to back their ideas up. Melissa Cross herself even admits that she doesn't know anything about fundamental singing technique outside of the metal genre. Here's the question I pose to you - if you had to choose one of two options, which would you choose: Your favorite singer having a very short but amazing career, or having a longer, more consistent, but consistently very good career? Unless the singer is a freak of nature like Mike Patton, they don't have many choices. I made my choice in my mid 20s when I elected to focus on having sustainable technique in order to have a lasting career into my 60s and beyond. Lots of singers don't do this, and just create the sounds that appeal to the moment of what they are trying to create. You mention it not being common knowledge - in the academic community it is beyond common knowledge, it is accepted as an absolute universal truth, and there have maybe been 5 people over the last 60 years who have been able to justify a contrary opinion with their voices. Rasp is basically the fastest way to get vocal nodules that exists.
Also - the breathy sound is a technique we call 'covering the voice', and essentially it passes more air through the folds than is necessary to create sound. When there is an inefficient breath to voice ratio it tends to cause all sorts of technical problems, from inability to sustain phrases, going flat, to causing the entire mechanism to be overly dried out. James simply made unhealthy choices. He has even admitted to doing as such himself. People give him flak for it because they don't like hearing the current state of his voice and they don't understand why him doing what he did in the past is what brought him here.
As a voice teacher, my entire perspective is to teach the healthy way to do things, inform my students what the unhealthy ways are, and then help them understand how to make conscious choices about the unhealthy things that they do. It is virtually impossible to sing in a true 'metal' style without hurting your voice, but there are steps you can take to mitigate he damage.
As sad as it sounds, it ultimately *is* James' responsibility to take care of his own voice. My entire purpose of the video was to clarify why he is having the problems that he has now. I was not 'taking him to task' like many other people do. If James chose at any point to forego his vocal health for a tour/money/whatever, then that decision lies on his shoulders, and I am sure that he is wholly aware of that. There have been many occasions where tours are canceled or rescheduled due to the health of the singer.
Furthermore, choosing to inject cortisone to enable yourself to sing is absolutely a decision that would require medical advisement. I'm certain that James knew the risk (and potential ramifications) when he did it.
James did have lots of voice coaching before he became a metal singer, and as I pointed out in the Q&A, the longer his career has lasted, the more he has strayed away from what used to be relatively healthy technique.
Not all singers are metal singers. The lowered standard applied to singers goes across many different genres of music. Every non-classical project I have ever been a part of carried the notion that 'you can find a singer anywhere'. Singers are given free passes if they sing out of tune, if they have poor technique, if they are inconsistent, etc. Humans make mistakes, of course, so that is to be expected to some degree, but the amount of mistakes that singers can get away with compared to instrumentalists is ridiculous in my opinion. That was the basis of my argument.
I respect your differing opinions, and I see where you are coming from, but being an apologist doesn't really take away from the fact that lots of the things that James could have done differently were absolutely within his control.
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But why the voice is so fragile and prone to permanent "damage"'? we break our bones and they heal, we get the fever and weather it down, we feel strain in a muscle and rest and the strain is gone, why can't a singer "shut up" for a while letting his voice rest and be back in top form?
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I've broken the radius and the ulna in my left forearm completely off twice - once when I was 13 and once when i was 14. I'm now 39, and I still have mobility issues in my left forearm. Not bad enough that they have any impact in my daily life, but it's there. And it's never gonna go away, because the changed so much due to the breaking of the bones and the subsequent healing period that the best I can hope for is what I have now.
So the notion that "your body will just heal" is flawed. Yes, for the most part it will, but the part that has been broken will have scar tissue and not work optimally anymore.
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I thought that video was interesting. I don't really agree with the implied sense that James should somehow be taken to task or given a hard time for the state of his voice, or that the main reason it's "OK" for DT not to replace him is because it's so late in their career.
To me, a lot of the issues discussed in the video are things that were outside of James' control, unless he was going to quit the band or risk being dismissed.
The food poisoning incident - was he really going to try to force them to cancel the tour?
Singing night after night, more than 5 minutes at a time without a rest. Is he going to say no? How are they supposed to tour?
Bad technique - he likely didn't have a vocal coach from the very beginning (but someone correct me if I'm wrong), so I'm sure it's the norm, rather than an exception, for a metal singer to have some bad habits. But then he did get a vocal coach, and it sounds like he probably followed her advice from what he's said in interviews, and I think he was putting in the effort to doing the right thing.
I've often heard that it's possible to sing with grit or rasp without hurting your voice. If that's not true, it's certainly not common knowledge. He probably didn't know it. Most probably didn't. And even then - that's what many of "us" - metal fans - want. Was he going to tell JP and MP "no, I'm not singing like that." I personally like all of the facets of his voice - clean and high, breathy, raspy and high, raspy and heavy, etc. It's what the band wanted and what a lot of fans like to hear. So I don't think he's "to blame" as far as that goes. And interesting side question - let's say we all believe that any kind of rasp hurts your voice - do we want singers to stop doing it?
He says that people are often more lenient towards singers than other musicians like it's a bad thing, but I think we should be. We ask a lot of metal singers.
And finally - and the biggest reason I think there's no need to get all on his case - he sounds great live and in person. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone walk out of a show talking about how awesome LaBrie was, I'd have a lot more money than if I got a dollar for every time someone said he sounded bad. If the show sounds good while you're there, that's the show. It *was* good. I've been to other shows where the singer sounded bad in person, and that's a whole different story.
YouTube, as far as I'm concerned, is just a bonus - something fun.
I would bet my entire career on the notion that there is no healthy way to sing with rasp or with growling. Every single Youtube 'voice coach' that I have seen that advocates 'safe' ways to growl either have shoddy credentials or shoddier science to back their ideas up. Melissa Cross herself even admits that she doesn't know anything about fundamental singing technique outside of the metal genre. Here's the question I pose to you - if you had to choose one of two options, which would you choose: Your favorite singer having a very short but amazing career, or having a longer, more consistent, but consistently very good career? Unless the singer is a freak of nature like Mike Patton, they don't have many choices. I made my choice in my mid 20s when I elected to focus on having sustainable technique in order to have a lasting career into my 60s and beyond. Lots of singers don't do this, and just create the sounds that appeal to the moment of what they are trying to create. You mention it not being common knowledge - in the academic community it is beyond common knowledge, it is accepted as an absolute universal truth, and there have maybe been 5 people over the last 60 years who have been able to justify a contrary opinion with their voices. Rasp is basically the fastest way to get vocal nodules that exists.
Maybe it is - and I'm certainly not going to say that you're wrong. I don't know the science behind it and don't have any vocal training. And maybe it's accepted in the academic community but I don't think it is in the metal community. The metal community could be wrong - and probably is. But most metal singers aren't part of the academic community; they just sing. And probably hear, like I've heard, that you can sing with rasp. If someone came to James during Awake and showed him some kind of proof that if he sang that way, he wouldn't be able to reach the same notes in 15 years *and* they gave that same proof to JP and MP who said "James, we like the way that sounds, but don't do it because we're worried about your voice," and still he chose to sing that way, then I could see being "mad" at him or giving him a hard time. Short of that, I don't. He didn't intentionally set out to damage his voice.
As to your question - it's a great one. I don't know the answer yet. You might think it should be simple - don't sing like that and have the longer career. But I don't know if it is that simple. And I actually am one who generally prefers a "cleaner" voice - I like rasp when it's used the way James does, but am not as big a fan when someone uses it as their primary voice, so to speak. But even I have to think about it. How would Awake sound without that edge? Some stuff on Six Degrees? Lord Nafaryus? Etc. Maybe it would be fine and he'd still be able to sing Another Day as it was written, to this day. But - maybe it would be missing something. And when I see him live today, and I've seen him a lot, I leave satisfied with the vocals at worst, and usually I'm very happy with them. So I think it's a great question and an interesting topic for discussion.
I remember in the Threshold thread - Damian Wilson said that Glynn Morgan has a "gravel" to his voice that Damian himself doesn't. And people quoted that as the reason they always had a hard time with Damian's voice - because he doesn't have that grit. So - for a metal fan, and a lot of metal bands and singers are of course fans themselves, it isn't a simple matter, giving up something that fits the genre so well.
Also - the breathy sound is a technique we call 'covering the voice', and essentially it passes more air through the folds than is necessary to create sound. When there is an inefficient breath to voice ratio it tends to cause all sorts of technical problems, from inability to sustain phrases, going flat, to causing the entire mechanism to be overly dried out. James simply made unhealthy choices. He has even admitted to doing as such himself. People give him flak for it because they don't like hearing the current state of his voice and they don't understand why him doing what he did in the past is what brought him here.
As a voice teacher, my entire perspective is to teach the healthy way to do things, inform my students what the unhealthy ways are, and then help them understand how to make conscious choices about the unhealthy things that they do. It is virtually impossible to sing in a true 'metal' style without hurting your voice, but there are steps you can take to mitigate he damage.
As sad as it sounds, it ultimately *is* James' responsibility to take care of his own voice. My entire purpose of the video was to clarify why he is having the problems that he has now. I was not 'taking him to task' like many other people do. If James chose at any point to forego his vocal health for a tour/money/whatever, then that decision lies on his shoulders, and I am sure that he is wholly aware of that. There have been many occasions where tours are canceled or rescheduled due to the health of the singer.
Yes there have, and I bet if something like that happened today, or even 10 years after the incident did, that DT would be more likely to cancel or reschedule. Back then? Not so much. Yes, ultimately he had a choice, but maybe that choice would have meant he was dismissed, or the band stuck with him and lost the support of their label or whoever, and JLB wouldn't have had the career he's had for fans to even be talking about it today. If I misinterpreted the section of the video where the "taking him to task" impression from, I apologise, but it did come across that way (to me) during that section.
I don't take any issue at all with you trying to explain what may have caused damage to his voice so others are armed with more information for their own careers.
Furthermore, choosing to inject cortisone to enable yourself to sing is absolutely a decision that would require medical advisement. I'm certain that James knew the risk (and potential ramifications) when he did it.
James did have lots of voice coaching before he became a metal singer, and as I pointed out in the Q&A, the longer his career has lasted, the more he has strayed away from what used to be relatively healthy technique.
Not all singers are metal singers. The lowered standard applied to singers goes across many different genres of music. Every non-classical project I have ever been a part of carried the notion that 'you can find a singer anywhere'. Singers are given free passes if they sing out of tune, if they have poor technique, if they are inconsistent, etc. Humans make mistakes, of course, so that is to be expected to some degree, but the amount of mistakes that singers can get away with compared to instrumentalists is ridiculous in my opinion. That was the basis of my argument.
I respect your differing opinions, and I see where you are coming from, but being an apologist doesn't really take away from the fact that lots of the things that James could have done differently were absolutely within his control.
I'm sure he could have, and some things were 100% in his control, but most I think weren't. Even before the I&W anniversary tour, someone asked if they were going to rearrange or cut out some things (like part of Take the Time), and JP said no, and that James better eat his Wheaties. Now that was a bit of a joke, and I am in no way "blaming" JP or suggesting he doesn't care about James. But I am saying that the demands of the band are one of many aspects of this whole thing. And in the end, I don't see the need to point fingers at all and give James a hard time because we've gotten incredible albums, great shows and tours,. and we're still getting them.
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NEVER, and I mean NEVER, let an instrumentalist write your vocal lines for you. There is historical precedence for this answer. It comes in the form of one of the greatest musical minds that the world has ever seen: Johann Sebastian Bach. While being a prodigious genius, and while being able to play 20 or so instruments fluently, he couldn't sing. At all. As a result, he had no idea how to write vocal lines for his singers that took into account things like feasible intervals, registration changes, proper ranges for voice types, and ESPECIALLY giving singers a chance to breathe. His music is rife with melismas (strings of notes on one syllable, pop singers call them 'riffs' and 'runs') that are essentially impossible to be sung in one breath. He also treated the voice like an instrument that can be manipulated in the same way that, for example, a violin could.
THIS IS 100% TRUE. Not necessarily the maxim "don't let instrumentalist write vocal parts", but something that gets pushed aside a LOT when writing music is proper orchestration and idiomatic writing. Especially for the solo voice or choral voice (which, believe it or not, are very different). Bad writing for an instrument can make a passage awkward to play, actually painful and damaging, needlessly difficult, and sound like crap. Knowing things like "flutes and tubas require a lot of breath", or "repeated notes on a piano aren't fun", or "oboists need time to exhale all the surplus breath", or what the ideal and comfortable ranges of instruments are makes ALL the difference. Just ask a oboist how much they like playing Dvorak, or violinists how much they like playing John Williams.
Voice is particularly difficult to write for, because every singer is different. They all have different ranges, skills, and tones. Unless you're writing for a vague part like "alto", you NEED to have access to the person who will be singing talk with you before, during, and after the writing process. You need to understand what their range is, what they have trouble with, etc. Then they need to review your song multiple times to shave off things or edit things to fit their voice. Vocal-writing has probably the lowest barrier to entry and the highest barrier to mastery.
Also, side note, Bach sometimes didn't even write idiomatically for instruments he was really good at. His fugues from the WTK are SUPER awkward to play in addition to being ridiculously difficult.
Was he going to tell JP and MP "no, I'm not singing like that."
Um yes. He should.
But why the voice is so fragile and prone to permanent "damage"'? we break our bones and they heal, we get the fever and weather it down, we feel strain in a muscle and rest and the strain is gone, why can't a singer "shut up" for a while letting his voice rest and be back in top form?
It's not just the voice. My old piano and music history teacher permanently damaged the tendons in his hand when he was young from playing piano. Brass players can "blow out" their lips from playing wrong or too long or too hard. The way the human body heals isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I sprained my ankle two years ago and I still have a slight limp every once in a while.
Side note: bad technique is 100% not limited to voice, even in rock or prog or metal. I've seen a lot of keyboardists with ATROCIOUS technique and there's probably more drummers, guitarists, and bassists with bad technique.
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Hmm...
After reading this thread. Maybe he had concerns for his voice being healthy enough to do ProgPower, and then go into the studio around the same time. If he said it was his decision, not DT's, to pull out, then that makes me feel a lot more understanding of his decision. I mean, he came off touring two of his toughest tours to date. The Astonishing and I&W aren't really vocal friendly. Add that to the fact he and the band didn't expect the I&W&B to last as long as it did. So thats less than a year for his voice to heal before that show and recording the new DT.
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I've broken the radius and the ulna in my left forearm completely off twice - once when I was 13 and once when i was 14. I'm now 39, and I still have mobility issues in my left forearm. Not bad enough that they have any impact in my daily life, but it's there. And it's never gonna go away, because the changed so much due to the breaking of the bones and the subsequent healing period that the best I can hope for is what I have now.
So the notion that "your body will just heal" is flawed. Yes, for the most part it will, but the part that has been broken will have scar tissue and not work optimally anymore.
This. Most vocal surgery requires laser to fix the problems. Vocal nodules don't just heal on their own. Sometimes the singer never recovers (i.e. Julie Andrews), sometimes they develop terrible scar tissue that ruins their voices forever, and rarely they recover back to reasonably decent form.
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I think, while James may not have always made the best choices, I'd wager he has taken a lot better care of his voice than most rock/metal singers. Singing Dream Theater isn't easy...for anyone. And, regardless of how well a singer takes care of their voice, the fact is, it becomes harder and harder with age - especially that style of singing.
That video of Another Day was amazing....talk about amazing power, phrasing, pitch, vibrato...clearly JLB is very talented. That said, it simply isn't realistic to expect that he (or anyone) could sound as good as studio recordings, night after night, tour after tour, with age. It's already incredibly difficult material to sing, for anyone. Even if you made all the right decisions, and took the best care of your voice - it'd still be harder and harder to pull off.
I do think that moving forward in the studio, the band could benefit from taking into account how feasible these vocal melodies will be live for him. Ideally, they should just let James write all the vocal melodies - I do agree with that. Also think JLB gets singled out way more than any other similar vocalists (Bruce Dickinson, Rob Halford...). I think, especially on youtube, it's "popular" to hate and rip on him. Lots of folks just don't stop to think about how difficult it is to do. He has the hardest job in DT.
EDIT - Forgot to add, I do think he could benefit from re-working the vocal melodies for a lot of the older songs...especially the hardest spots. I think they've tried to stick as close to the original melodies for as long as they can, but at this point, I think certain sections need to be re-written, drastically, to fit his current vocal range. Now, I'm just guessing here but, I think a lot of fans would understand, and would probably rather hear the melodies re-worked, or even just sung an octave lower, than screamed out of tune, trying to emulate the original. I dunno. Also, these melodies need to be re-written to fit his vocal range, ahead of time. Like, there needs to be thought put into it. Like, from now on, here's how I'm going to sing that one part in Metropolis, etc. Instead of improvising it night after night - that's part of the problem too, I think.
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EDIT - Forgot to add, I do think he could benefit from re-working the vocal melodies for a lot of the older songs...especially the hardest spots. I think they've tried to stick as close to the original melodies for as long as they can, but at this point, I think certain sections need to be re-written, drastically, to fit his current vocal range. Now, I'm just guessing here but, I think a lot of fans would understand, and would probably rather hear the melodies re-worked, or even just sung an octave lower, than screamed out of tune, trying to emulate the original. I dunno. Also, these melodies need to be re-written to fit his vocal range, ahead of time. Like, there needs to be thought put into it. Like, from now on, here's how I'm going to sing that one part in Metropolis, etc. Instead of improvising it night after night - that's part of the problem too, I think.
Either that or retire some songs from the set for good. They have a big enough catalog, so retiring some of the most demanding songs for him shouldn't be an issue for crafting their tour setlists.
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Was he going to tell JP and MP "no, I'm not singing like that."
Um yes. He should.
I get the feeling you didn't tell JP or MP that you had to take a leak when you were in the studio. You asked if you could be excused.
Just look at Lines in the Sand... James couldn't or wouldn't sing like he was an 80 year old man with strep throat who just swallowed a cup of gravel, so they brought in someone who would.
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In the interest of accuracy, I don't think it was Zach who said that. Wasn't it Ninjabait?
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But why the voice is so fragile and prone to permanent "damage"'? we break our bones and they heal, we get the fever and weather it down, we feel strain in a muscle and rest and the strain is gone, why can't a singer "shut up" for a while letting his voice rest and be back in top form?
Keep in mind, this isn't bone, it's cartilage. Very different materials. I assume you know people whose knees are "shot" and likely have to refrain for the rest of their lives from sports like running etc. That's because cartilage breaks down over time and doesn't get replaced.
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I just want to say that I've learned a lot in this thread about the art of singing. Thank you Zach and others.
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I like the effort that Zach gives and enlighten us with so much technical details but...
But I find it weird while you are talking about voice technics, James' abilities, ups and downs.... ect then like "ohh btw guys, the score is re-recorded or auto-tuned or something..." then keep on with your subject.
I wonder if it is your opinion or post production things are your area too?
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I like the effort that Zach gives and enlighten us with so much technical details but...
But I find it weird while you are talking about voice technics, James' abilities, ups and downs.... ect then like "ohh btw guys, the score is re-recorded or auto-tuned or something..." then keep on with your subject.
I wonder if it is your opinion or post production things are your area too?
MP said that 95% of what you hear was from that night (regarding James) which means 5%.....made up numbers by MP, obviously, are touched up to some degree. What degree? Anybodies guess. But it was confirmed that some of it was touched up.
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I like the effort that Zach gives and enlighten us with so much technical details but...
But I find it weird while you are talking about voice technics, James' abilities, ups and downs.... ect then like "ohh btw guys, the score is re-recorded or auto-tuned or something..." then keep on with your subject.
I wonder if it is your opinion or post production things are your area too?
I already mentioned in the thread that I don't have a ton of production experience.
My point was that many people point out Score as a 'return to form' for James, but the reality when you listen to other recordings of the performance is that while James clearly performed that show well, it was not as pristine as the DVD made it appear. Listen to the context surrounding the comment about it. Because there was some form of editing done to the video of the performance, we can't know exactly how much healthier James' performance was there.
That is one of the downsides to post production with vocals. It masks habits and methods that can ultimately be vocally harmful.
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But why the voice is so fragile and prone to permanent "damage"'? we break our bones and they heal, we get the fever and weather it down, we feel strain in a muscle and rest and the strain is gone, why can't a singer "shut up" for a while letting his voice rest and be back in top form?
Keep in mind, this isn't bone, it's cartilage. Very different materials. I assume you know people whose knees are "shot" and likely have to refrain for the rest of their lives from sports like running etc. That's because cartilage breaks down over time and doesn't get replaced.
This is correct. Cartilage can be repaired surgically to an extent, but in a region of the body such as the voice, it is EXTREMELY difficult to safely perform. This is why lots of singers choose to forego surgery because there is a much greater than zero chance that you will sustain residual effects that will render you unable to sing at all.
My guess is that this is what JLB did, but I don't know for sure.
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I wonder if stem cell treatments can help with cartilage repair in that area as they can when treating knees for example.
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I wonder if stem cell treatments can help with cartilage repair in that area as they can when treating knees for example.
Life to save life?
EDIT - Forgot to add, I do think he could benefit from re-working the vocal melodies for a lot of the older songs...especially the hardest spots. I think they've tried to stick as close to the original melodies for as long as they can, but at this point, I think certain sections need to be re-written, drastically, to fit his current vocal range. Now, I'm just guessing here but, I think a lot of fans would understand, and would probably rather hear the melodies re-worked, or even just sung an octave lower, than screamed out of tune, trying to emulate the original. I dunno. Also, these melodies need to be re-written to fit his vocal range, ahead of time. Like, there needs to be thought put into it. Like, from now on, here's how I'm going to sing that one part in Metropolis, etc. Instead of improvising it night after night - that's part of the problem too, I think.
Either that or retire some songs from the set for good. They have a big enough catalog, so retiring some of the most demanding songs for him shouldn't be an issue for crafting their tour setlists.
Yea, I really think a lot of I&W isn't going to be performed anymore (or at least not on a consistent basis besides PMU/Metropolis). There may not be another day for Another Day. I'm cool with that. DT"s catalogue is big enough to just not perform some songs. We got the world tour, and the 25 previous years of performances.
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I wonder if stem cell treatments can help with cartilage repair in that area as they can when treating knees for example.
Life to save life?
:clap:
:rollin
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Zach, tha k you for the insight. Very interesting stuff.
I do have a question: what are the differences between Bruce Dickinson and James’ singing techniques/health?
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Zach, tha k you for the insight. Very interesting stuff.
I do have a question: what are the differences between Bruce Dickinson and James’ singing techniques/health?
I have had a billion requests for analyzing various singers. Dickinson is definitely on my list. I just released one about Freddie Mercury (kind of), but I will get there with Bruce eventually :)
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I like the effort that Zach gives and enlighten us with so much technical details but...
But I find it weird while you are talking about voice technics, James' abilities, ups and downs.... ect then like "ohh btw guys, the score is re-recorded or auto-tuned or something..." then keep on with your subject.
I wonder if it is your opinion or post production things are your area too?
MP said that 95% of what you hear was from that night (regarding James) which means 5%.....made up numbers by MP, obviously, are touched up to some degree. What degree? Anybodies guess. But it was confirmed that some of it was touched up.
And not to unnecessarily harp on this, but of course those 5% are the ones that you would really notice had they left it in. There is a Score camera video of UAGM on Youtube that shows the original vocals. Once you know it was dubbed you can even tell on the official CD what the section is. They tried to match it but it isn't quite the same.
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Very interesting video!
I don't think the band will do less vocals and move on to instrumental stuff. I bet they'd get another singer before that. They (Petrucci) will continue to write vocal melodies that LaBrie can handle.
Great point Ansley made earlier in the thread about never letting an instrumentalist write vocals if they're not a singer themself. LaBrie really should write his own vocal melodies or have full authority to change whatever Petrucci comes up with.
Score. Ansley seems 100% certain that a lot more than 5% was fixed up. I don't know what to believe about Score anymore. I'll just have to try to find fan recordings and decide for myself. I've never believed that YouTube videos some how misrepresent how LaBrie (or any singer) really sounds. Why would a recording uploaded to YouTube only affect vocals?
I know it was ultimately LaBrie's decision to continue touring in the mid '90s but I still believe he was in a very difficult situation. Maybe LaBrie really couldn't afford to take a year off. That's a long time to not work and the band weren't millionaires back then.
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I know it was ultimately LaBrie's decision to continue touring in the mid '90s but I still believe he was in a very difficult situation. Maybe LaBrie really couldn't afford to take a year off. That's a long time to not work and the band weren't millionaires back then.
However reluctantly and regretefully, the band would have moved on without him I guess. If James would have put down his foot saying "This is my voice and carreer at risk, I'm not gonna sing for a year period", the band would have probably done the same thing they did back in 2010 when MP wanted to stop for a while, carry on because they couldn't afford to stop.
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I think a good short term solution would be to start touring with an opening band again. That way, the DT set would be slightly shorter and would give James less singing time every night, while still playing mostly songs with vocals and not a lot of instrumentals.
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Great point Ansley made earlier in the thread about never letting an instrumentalist write vocals if they're not a singer themself. LaBrie really should write his own vocal melodies or have full authority to change whatever Petrucci comes up with.
I thought he JLB was more involved with the writing process from Train of Thought up to The Astonishing? I know that JR and JP are the primary composers for the band but I don't think it's like JLB has zero say in the vocal melodies. Quite a lot of DT's more recent songs really fit naturally to the voice (especially those in that period I mentioned), even when they near the extremes of a tenor's range.
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I think a good short term solution would be to start touring with an opening band again. That way, the DT set would be slightly shorter and would give James less singing time every night, while still playing mostly songs with vocals and not a lot of instrumentals.
Or see if they can get on a tour opening for a bigger band. I mean, as a fan, I'd rather see a full DT show. But switching things up from their standard theater tours could be good for the band in terms of getting exposure and either as an opener or adding an opener, making things a little easier for the band's health and vocals specifically.
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I will be doing a Russell Allen video at some point, and one of the main points I plan to expand upon with him is that he took shows off when he wasn't well. I know this for a personal fact because back in 2005 he was ill when he came through Atlanta on Gigantour, and they cut all of Symphony X's set as a result.
I can't think of one time where DT's shows have been cancelled other than for venue related issues.
Allen is nowhere near where he was in 2001 now, but he has more left in the tank than James does, and little decisions like the aforementioned ones are part of the reason why.
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I will be doing a Russell Allen video at some point, and one of the main points I plan to expand upon with him is that he took shows off when he wasn't well. I know this for a personal fact because back in 2005 he was ill when he came through Atlanta on Gigantour, and they cut all of Symphony X's set as a result.
I can't think of one time where DT's shows have been cancelled other than for venue related issues.
Allen is nowhere near where he was in 2001 now, but he has more left in the tank than James does, and little decisions like the aforementioned ones are part of the reason why.
That would be cool. I think many of us DT fans really like Russell Allen.
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I can't think of one time where DT's shows have been cancelled other than for venue related issues.
They are rare, but there's been a handful of times that they definitely canceled shows because of JL. Most recently, they canceled a show in Italy (in March 2016) because of him being sick. They also canceled a show in Detroit in 2006 since he wasn't well, and it would've been the fourth night in a row that they did a show; it was also close to the RCMH/Score show, so they didn't want him to push himself and risk affecting the video shoot. And there was also a show in April 1998 in England that was canceled because JL was sick. That's about all I can think of.
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I can't think of one time where DT's shows have been cancelled other than for venue related issues.
They are rare, but there's been a handful of times that they definitely canceled shows because of JL. Most recently, they canceled a show in Italy (in March 2016) because of him being sick.
I was at the concert that happened the night before, right there in the moment he didn't sound so bad to me and I enjoyed the concert, but looking back to it after reading news of the cancellation of the following show I realized how he was quick to always leave the stage whenever he finished his parts, most likely to drink and rest in between his parts. Guess I dodged one since he could have been easily be already sick before the show.
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I will be doing a Russell Allen video at some point, and one of the main points I plan to expand upon with him is that he took shows off when he wasn't well. I know this for a personal fact because back in 2005 he was ill when he came through Atlanta on Gigantour, and they cut all of Symphony X's set as a result.
I can't think of one time where DT's shows have been cancelled other than for venue related issues.
Allen is nowhere near where he was in 2001 now, but he has more left in the tank than James does, and little decisions like the aforementioned ones are part of the reason why.
Allen's pretty great. I'm looking forward to your video on him. I'm pretty sure Symphony X doesn't tour nearly as much as Dream Theater. It's unfortunate they can't live off their music but that must be a good thing for Russel Allen's voice. Actually, I don't even know if Allen sings a lot with other bands when Symphony X doesn't tour. I know he's in Adrenaline Mob but I'm not sure how much they tour.
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I will be doing a Russell Allen video at some point, and one of the main points I plan to expand upon with him is that he took shows off when he wasn't well. I know this for a personal fact because back in 2005 he was ill when he came through Atlanta on Gigantour, and they cut all of Symphony X's set as a result.
I can't think of one time where DT's shows have been cancelled other than for venue related issues.
Allen is nowhere near where he was in 2001 now, but he has more left in the tank than James does, and little decisions like the aforementioned ones are part of the reason why.
Allen's pretty great. I'm looking forward to your video on him. I'm pretty sure Symphony X doesn't tour nearly as much as Dream Theater. It's unfortunate they can't live off their music but that must be a good thing for Russel Allen's voice. Actually, I don't even know if Allen sings a lot with other bands when Symphony X doesn't tour. I know he's in Adrenaline Mob but I'm not sure how much they tour.
I think AMOB is on indefinite hiatus at the moment (not a bad thing, though).
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I am not superstitious at all, but Amob should probably call it a day with the luck they've had on tour. Drummer dies in tour bus, bass player and tour manager die in tour accident.
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I am not superstitious at all, but Amob should probably call it a day with the luck they've had on tour. Drummer dies in tour bus, bass player and tour manager die in tour accident.
And I think Mike Orlando, their drummer and John Moyer formed a band with another singer. It’s pretty safe to say AMOB aren’t going to be active for a while...
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I will be doing a Russell Allen video at some point, and one of the main points I plan to expand upon with him is that he took shows off when he wasn't well. I know this for a personal fact because back in 2005 he was ill when he came through Atlanta on Gigantour, and they cut all of Symphony X's set as a result.
I can't think of one time where DT's shows have been cancelled other than for venue related issues.
Allen is nowhere near where he was in 2001 now, but he has more left in the tank than James does, and little decisions like the aforementioned ones are part of the reason why.
After how much you’ve talked about “raspy” singing being bad for the voice, I can’t possibly see how you’d even remotely like, let alone condone, his singing. It’s very raspy, very often. Also, I’m not sure where you are getting the idea of him not being as good as he was in 2001...dude still sounds amazing as ever. I’ve literally never heard or seen a single clip of him sounding off live. The dude is an absolute beast. Every live recording I’ve ever heard, he’s always fantastic, and every bit as on point as studio recordings. He’s way, way more consistent than LaBrie has ever been, and probably more than any other metal frontman I can think of. It’s crazy. Every time they go out on a new tour, I keep thinking maybe he’ll finally have an off night, but nope. Always on fire.
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I am not superstitious at all, but Amob should probably call it a day with the luck they've had on tour. Drummer dies in tour bus, bass player and tour manager die in tour accident.
And I think Mike Orlando, their drummer and John Moyer formed a band with another singer. It’s pretty safe to say AMOB aren’t going to be active for a while...
Stereo Satellite. They were about to release an album. But a couple of days ago, Orlando posted that he wasn’t in the band anymore and all the money from the pldge campaign was refunded. Very odd how this band ended.
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I will be doing a Russell Allen video at some point, and one of the main points I plan to expand upon with him is that he took shows off when he wasn't well. I know this for a personal fact because back in 2005 he was ill when he came through Atlanta on Gigantour, and they cut all of Symphony X's set as a result.
I can't think of one time where DT's shows have been cancelled other than for venue related issues.
Allen is nowhere near where he was in 2001 now, but he has more left in the tank than James does, and little decisions like the aforementioned ones are part of the reason why.
After how much you’ve talked about “raspy” singing being bad for the voice, I can’t possibly see how you’d even remotely like, let alone condone, his singing. It’s very raspy, very often. Also, I’m not sure where you are getting the idea of him not being as good as he was in 2001...dude still sounds amazing as ever. I’ve literally never heard or seen a single clip of him sounding off live. The dude is an absolute beast. Every live recording I’ve ever heard, he’s always fantastic, and every bit as on point as studio recordings. He’s way, way more consistent than LaBrie has ever been, and probably more than any other metal frontman I can think of. It’s crazy. Every time they go out on a new tour, I keep thinking maybe he’ll finally have an off night, but nope. Always on fire.
My experience has been the opposite. DT and SX are both bands that I've seen for multiple shows on tours (but I did not catch SX at all the last time), and I've found James to be way more consistent than Russell. RA even made a comment from the stage one night - I don't recall it word for word but he was very frustrated about reading comments online and YouTube about and said in a mocking voice "the vocals were a little off" and rolled his eyes. That seemed really out of character for him but I chalked it up to him having a bad night. My impression is that he starts a tour off strong but then starts to struggle (and their tours aren't that long). But this is based on my experience seeing him live, and I'm sure others have different ones. He was one of my favorite singers for a while but I remember coming to the conclusion that he probably would not be able to do what James does night after night with so many dates and way longer shows.
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I've never seen them in person, but I've seen and heard plenty of clips where Russ was not "on." It is what it is.
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The thing about Allen is that a) he gives out tons of energy and that must be draining physically on him. Not saying JLB doesn't give tons of energy, but you notice the difference. Allen is more "physical" than JLB and moves more on stage vs JLB. b) Allen likes to drink the heavy stuff. At least at every Symphony X and Amob shows where I have seen him, he always has a bottle of a skull shaped glass container with scotch I believe. I don't know if he does that during the TSO shows but he definitely does the drinking with his other bands. And finally, RA uses the rasp voice a lot.
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I don't think it helps Russell Allen's case there that afaik he hasn't had formal training outside of choir in school. He mostly coasts off raw talent and trying to achieve a "sound", which isn't always healthy. JLB has (post-accident at least) received some training and he seems more concerned with keeping his voice in good condition now. Also, yeah, drinking alcohol during or before a show is BEYOND a terrible idea.
I'd be more interested in seeing analysis of the big symphonic metal sopranos and mezzos like Tarja Turen, Simone Simmons, Floor Jansen, etc. It'd be interesting to which ones have actually good technique and which ones are mostly just faking it.
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I've seen SX multiple times, once of which I was literally inches away from RA for the whole show thanks to the venue being so small and I don't recall a moment where he was off. I'm sure they occur, but I'm guessing they few and far between. I've seen DT 11 or 12 times and JLB has been pretty spot on for every show. I think the DT vocals are a little more challenging than the SX stuff. Regardless both guys are amazing though I'd give the edge to RA for consistency.
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Great thread. I am a long time fan of DT and JLB sympathizer. I definately feel James vocal abilities, in regards to performance of early DT discography, shows his age. Geddy lee, Halford and Dickinson, Tate (dear god), many others are unable to perform early tracks during live shows.
Anyway, that being said, I feel JLB's performance on The Astonishing, just a few years ago, was virtuosic and brilliant, on so many levels. And, at the age of 50 plus, JLB had recorded one of his best vocal performances, IMO, on TA, that I have ever heard.
Going forward, DT needs to focus on JLB's other vocal abilities, as TA did. Explore that. He still has an amazing voice, with heart and emotion that I think, is the essence of why he has a large contingent of DT fans, that appreciate him. Look at recent tracks like Breaking all Illusions, The X Aspect, JLB is present, and provides great attachment to these pieces. BAL is an instant classic. DT needs to stay in that wheelhouse and JLB will represent.
Peace. First, post in like 2 yrs....wtf
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Awesome post - I pretty much agree with all of it. Especially how incredible TA was.
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Thanks for posting, I loved that video!
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Lots of interesting points have been made in this thread, and I don't think I can add lots of substantial things but here's a thought:
Kinda unfair how people maintain that Russell Allen is the superior live singer given Symphony X plays a show for every 30 shows DT plays. Their touring schedule isn't nearly as rigorous and intense as DT's, and we all know that takes an important toll on JLB's voice (or anyone's for that matter).
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Lots of interesting points have been made in this thread, and I don't think I can add lots of substantial things but here's a thought:
Kinda unfair how people maintain that Russell Allen is the superior live singer given Symphony X plays a show for every 30 shows DT plays. Their touring schedule isn't nearly as rigorous and intense as DT's, and we all know that takes an important toll on JLB's voice (or anyone's for that matter).
Totally agree there. And DT songs are far more difficult as far as timing goes than SX songs in general. Breathing must be really hard on some as well.
B.Lee
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Lots of interesting points have been made in this thread, and I don't think I can add lots of substantial things but here's a thought:
Kinda unfair how people maintain that Russell Allen is the superior live singer given Symphony X plays a show for every 30 shows DT plays. Their touring schedule isn't nearly as rigorous and intense as DT's, and we all know that takes an important toll on JLB's voice (or anyone's for that matter).
My next video is going to be on Russell Allen, and I hopeit will be rather enlightening. :)
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Zach, speaking of Russ Allen (and Labrie) for that matter....
Is there a way that you personally can quantify emotion in someone's voice, or gauge something intangible?
James Labrie gives me goosebumps, but for some reason, I simply do not connect with Russ Allen even though I feel like I should. But I just don't. There's just something very cold about him.
Anyway, (if you're taking requests ;D), I'd love to see your analysis of Michael Kiske.
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Zach, speaking of Russ Allen (and Labrie) for that matter....
Is there a way that you personally can quantify emotion in someone's voice, or gauge something intangible?
James Labrie gives me goosebumps, but for some reason, I simply do not connect with Russ Allen even though I feel like I should. But I just don't. There's just something very cold about him.
Try listening to Paradise Lost (the song), it’s one of my favorite performances by Russell.
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I'll give that a special listen, but I have all of their albums. I've heard plenty of him to know.
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Anyway, (if you're taking requests ;D), I'd love to see your analysis of Michael Kiske.
Inhuman singer with an absurd talent that stopped singing live in 1993 and therefore kept his voice until his 50's, and the moment he undertook a serious world tour again with Helloween started to struggle? :D
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Regarding the touring schedule, it's also somewhat easy to say he should have taken more days off. Just about any band has to expect to drift back into obscurity the next week, so every concert has to be sung like it's your last. Even if that means singing unsustainably.
For their more recent concerts I agree with the argument however.
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Anyway, (if you're taking requests ;D), I'd love to see your analysis of Michael Kiske.
Inhuman singer with an absurd talent that stopped singing live in 1993 and therefore kept his voice until his 50's, and the moment he undertook a serious world tour again with Helloween started to struggle? :D
:lol
Walked into that one didn't I?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VTwuHmdAm8&feature=youtu.be
Russell Allen video is here! :)
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Regarding the touring schedule, it's also somewhat easy to say he should have taken more days off. Just about any band has to expect to drift back into obscurity the next week, so every concert has to be sung like it's your last. Even if that means singing unsustainably.
This post cannot be quoted enough. I have made similar comments in the past, but have never articulated it as well as rumbo just did!
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I thought the Russell Allen video was cool, and I especially think #4 (the amount of touring) is a huge piece. I've seen him at the end of a tour, or in the middle of a tour after the 3rd night in a row, and based on that, I think he'd have a lot of trouble had Symphony X done extensive touring over the years. That having been said, maybe he'll see these videos and decide to tone down the gruffer vocals in the interest of preserving his voice.... (one can hope?). :)
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The Russ Allen video was good. But I was more interested in a specific analysis of how he does the gruffness and power that he portrays in his vocals, and whether or not that is healthy. In fairness, it is covered briefly at the very end where Zach basically says "I don't know how he does it." :lol And the concept is covered in fair depth in his "The Zen of NOT Screaming!" video (which, despite being very ranty, is very informative). But for me personally, I was looking for more application of those concepts specifically to Russ's singing. But don't get me wrong--I'm not trying to criticize the video or sound ungrateful for the effort that is put into these. I'm just expressing what info I am interested in.
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The Russ Allen video was good. But I was more interested in a specific analysis of how he does the gruffness and power that he portrays in his vocals, and whether or not that is healthy. In fairness, it is covered briefly at the very end where Zach basically says "I don't know how he does it." :lol And the concept is covered in fair depth in his "The Zen of NOT Screaming!" video (which, despite being very ranty, is very informative). But for me personally, I was looking for more application of those concepts specifically to Russ's singing. But don't get me wrong--I'm not trying to criticize the video or sound ungrateful for the effort that is put into these. I'm just expressing what info I am interested in.
I don't know how he creates the gruff stuff. It isn't something I have put any substantial amount of time into understanding, so I don't want to claim to be an expert on how the sound is created. I do, however, know that the methods that people explain are either untrue and pseudoscientific or extremely unhealthy.
Russell creates the clarity in his tone by correlating his speaking voice to his singing, and also by being very careful as to the amount of tension he creates when he sings. The masterclass I quoted goes into more detail, but I didn't want to just be a repeat of that video, so I just expounded upon the major points I felt were relevant.
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Also, if it seems like the videos aren't as in depth as the JLB one the reason is that people have been pretty critical of the videos' overall length, so I am trying to condense the analysis videos a bit. I could talk for hours about this stuff, but I have to consider the average YouTube viewer attention span.
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Also, if it seems like the videos aren't as in depth as the JLB one the reason is that people have been pretty critical of the videos' overall length, so I am trying to condense the analysis videos a bit. I could talk for hours about this stuff, but I have to consider the average YouTube viewer attention span.
Do you script the videos or just hit record and go off the cuff? I didn't see many major edits that would indicate the former and you digress a bit which indicates the latter. Because if you don't script, the general practice with educational YouTube videos seems to be to script the thing out, rehearse it a few times, and then record several takes of different parts, which are then edited together. Also, the length is fine, if still a bit long. Generally the best ballpark is to hit the 3-15min range with educational videos like this. The more focused you are delivering your message and the less you backtrack or negate statements or digress the better.
Also, get right into it. You have literally only a few seconds (we're talking 3-16 seconds really) to capture the viewer's attention, so you have to jump right into the meat of the video or set it up with some sort of intriguing tease. You can skip over introductions and "why I made this video stuff" since that's mostly fluff. If you do explain why you made a video, keep it extremely short (like "Thanks to x and y on Patreon for suggesting video" short) and save it for after you tease the audience or at the end of the video. If you're worried about choppy looking edits, I'd do a "slideshow" format or have audioless video clips or one of those drawing videos. It's always good to keep the audience's peepers engaged as well as their earholes and their brain...holes. Listen, I opted for physics, not anatomy in high school okay?
If you want good models for how these kind of videos should be constructed, I'd look at 8bit Music Theory (who covers music theory of video game tracks and is probably the closest model) and The Game/Film Theorist channels. Other popular stuff like CGP Grey, footofaferret, VSauce 1-10,000, and minutephysics are good models too. There seems to be a winning structure to these kinds of videos, and you can find a lot of ways to creatively express yourself and get your ideas across within this simple framework.
Hope all this stuff helps, I'm always really happy to help people grow YouTube channels and stuff because I've learned a freaking lot about how all this works.
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I think Allen is in a fantastic shape at this point in time. Dude is 47 years old, which is well beyond the point many(most?) energetic rock/metal singers lose range/start sounding tired/throw pronounciation overboard/etc.
Recent performances I stumbled accross:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_TIR_Lq3rk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_TIR_Lq3rk)
Transiberian Orchestra. Here he sings clean in lower pitch, later moving on to full on rock belting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT5dOPQYmOo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT5dOPQYmOo)
Bon Jovi cover. Here he is in an acoustic setting (he sings the higher parts in the chorus).
As for the discussion of what affects the vocals of singers, offcourse good technique is an extremely important part in maintaining the voice, but it isn't the only factor. I do think, no matter the technique, extensive touring and high density/long duration of singing during concerts can lead to vocal fatique. Just like the overuse of basically any part of your body. Powering through sickness and vocal issues for a long time also obviously isn't going to do you any favours in the long term (which a lot of touring singers tend to do). And then there is offcourse ageing. Ageing affects people differently to a high degree. Control over muscles plays a big role in singing (and basically any type of controlled movement of a bodily part). These capabilities simply decrease as people age, and at different rates for any person (just like, say, hand eye coordination slowly declines over the years). It is not just the vocal cords that (can) take a hit over time.
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Referring to Ninja's post on the previous page - I have a different perspective. Just as a viewer, not as someone with YouTube video experience. But I have no problem with the length of either the JLB or the Russell Allen video. If something is interesting to me, a long video is actually welcomed. Also, I really hate the choppy style videos (that are often done that way on purpose), and enjoyed the laid back feel of his videos.
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I think Allen is in a fantastic shape at this point in time. Dude is 47 years old, which is well beyond the point many(most?) energetic rock/metal singers lose range/start sounding tired/throw pronounciation overboard/etc.
Recent performances I stumbled accross:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_TIR_Lq3rk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_TIR_Lq3rk)
Transiberian Orchestra. Here he sings clean in lower pitch, later moving on to full on rock belting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT5dOPQYmOo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT5dOPQYmOo)
Bon Jovi cover. Here he is in an acoustic setting (he sings the higher parts in the chorus).
Oh him doing a better David Coverdale than David Coverdale every did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYoTbpqAck0
Allen is just such a talent.
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I think Allen is in a fantastic shape at this point in time. Dude is 47 years old, which is well beyond the point many(most?) energetic rock/metal singers lose range/start sounding tired/throw pronounciation overboard/etc.
Recent performances I stumbled accross:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_TIR_Lq3rk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_TIR_Lq3rk)
Transiberian Orchestra. Here he sings clean in lower pitch, later moving on to full on rock belting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT5dOPQYmOo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT5dOPQYmOo)
Bon Jovi cover. Here he is in an acoustic setting (he sings the higher parts in the chorus).
Oh him doing a better David Coverdale than David Coverdale every did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYoTbpqAck0
Allen is just such a talent.
Aww isn't that David Z on bass there? RIP.