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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: bill1971 on November 06, 2017, 12:14:49 PM
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No matter what clip on youtube and any article with comments OR some MP related clips or articles there are always the "Mangini is a robot" or "MP was the soul Mangini has no soul"...etc. I have seen Mangini play a few times and he is always energetic and engaging, anyhow not to create this thread to defend him but I am just tired of those comments. Anyone else?
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same
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Yes I agree. I've always found MM very entertaining live, he may not be so much in your face as MP is, but for a drummer, he does a very good job being engaging while still performing at a high level.
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Mangini feels music a lot. Maybe he doesn't rock his ass off on stage, but he's got a very rocky attitude which is always appealing. Probably MP zealotry is really tiring.
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*raises hand*
To be fair, I'm no more tired of it than I am of folks who insist that shred guitar isn't "emotional".
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Whomever calls MM soulless is most likely clueless. Then again, maybe it's subjective, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that MM has no soul. :biggrin:
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Who else is tired of people calling Mangini soulless?
Me. :angel:
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Hear hear. And each time an album cycle comes round, we get this whole "MM should contribute more to the writing process" thing. What exactly do you mean by that? Writing lyrics? If it's that, does he have past experience as a lyricist? I don't know what more he can do besides what he already does, ie. contribute drum parts, as the drummer. If he has little or no experience in, say, guitar parts or keyboard parts, he can't really contribute to those, can he?
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I don't really care. I thing he's a great drummer who seems to enjoy his job which makes me enjoy watching him perform.
If people can't stop comparing him to Portnoy that's their problem. Same for the people who can only enjoy the SOA album by comparing it to the TA.
Calling him soulless is just BS.
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Me. Saturday he was an absolute joy to watch play. The guy loves his job, and I don't blame him. He played Images & Words with so much feeling. And the drumming he did in Metropolis... WOW.
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Hear hear. And each time an album cycle comes round, we get this whole "MM should contribute more to the writing process" thing. What exactly do you mean by that? Writing lyrics? If it's that, does he have past experience as a lyricist? I don't know what more he can do besides what he already does, ie. contribute drum parts, as the drummer. If he has little or no experience in, say, guitar parts or keyboard parts, he can't really contribute to those, can he?
Well that's different though isn't it? The OP was talking about the soulless criticism - which I agree, has been overblown badly. MM tends to be very on the beat, but I certainly wouldn't call him robotic or soulless. What you are talking about is his writing involvement, which MM himself has said he wants a deeper involvement in that process.
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I don't get it either, everytime I've seen him perform he has always been very entertaining to watch and engaging, not to mention he sounds powerful. Besides what he plays "moves" me, he has written awesome drums parts in the past DT albums, and not neccesarily because they're complex or whatever, I just hear them and think they're awesome. BTW because of this forum I've understood more of what he does, since I'm not a drummer.
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General adjectives like "uninspired", "soulless", "disinterested" and the like really irk me. I think that people use those way too often in place of "I don't like this".
To bring it back around to Mangini - The guy clearly loves music and puts his heart and soul into everything he does. Calling his playing "soulless" sounds almost objectively wrong to me.
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Add me to the list as well. He was incredible the other night.
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So sick of it.
The dude was on fire Saturday. Played with a ton of feel, emotion, etc. Entertaining as hell to watch too so I would disagree with anyone who says Portnoy is more of an entertainer.
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He'll never win with some people. Anyone who says a single person was the soul of Dream Theater or Mangini is not entertaining as hell to watch clearly has their head up their ass.
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MM is actually quite animated and entertaining. Just watch him on LALP and BTFW dvd's. He's playing his heart out and smiles all the time. He takes a very unique approach to the drums and has amazing chops!
People that say he is robotic or souless don't know what they're talking about..
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He'll never win with some people. Anyone who says a single person was the soul of Dream Theater or Mangini is not entertaining as hell to watch clearly has their head up their ass.
Eh, I still hold firm that Charlie Dominici was the soul of DT.
I mean, did you SEE some of his moves?
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MM is actually quite animated and entertaining. Just watch him on LALP and BTFW dvd's. He's playing his heart out and smiles all the time. He takes a very unique approach to the drums and has amazing chops!
People that way he is robotic or souless don't know what they're talking about..
I don't think he helped himself with that drum set that had a lot on the sides and above his head, meaning there had be a large portion of crowds that had a tough time seeing him. I know that drum set is fully functional for the way he plays, but from a visual live standpoint, I don't think it does him any favors.
Eh, I still hold firm that Charlie Dominici was the soul of DT.
I mean, did you SEE some of his moves?
Um, no. :lol :lol
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He'll never win with some people. Anyone who says a single person was the soul of Dream Theater or Mangini is not entertaining as hell to watch clearly has their head up their ass.
Eh, I still hold firm that Charlie Dominici was the soul of DT.
I mean, did you SEE some of his moves?
I have to admit, when they played To Live Forever, I was enthralled, ecstatic, and right as James sang "acrossss the wooooooooooorld" I half expected him to do a little spin a la Dominici. I was both equally happy and disappointed when he didn't.
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Eh, I still hold firm that Charlie Dominici was the soul of DT.
Um, no. :lol :lol
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hZeWEv48WFA/VVDUriGeV7I/AAAAAAAAAUg/5_DgZywe1mM/s1600/Dominici.jpg)
(https://www.clyderjones.com/uploads/9/0/7/4/90748959/s399247321176401470_p7_i1_w470.jpeg)
I rest my case.
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That case needs to be rested.
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No matter what clip on youtube and any article with comments OR some MP related clips or articles there are always the "Mangini is a robot" or "MP was the soul Mangini has no soul"...etc. I have seen Mangini play a few times and he is always energetic and engaging, anyhow not to create this thread to defend him but I am just tired of those comments. Anyone else?
Well for one Youtube is always infested with trolls, It is really tiring to see those comments but I just learned to ignore them because if you will dig more deeper more than half of those folks saying he has no soul is not even a musician nor has even a basic understanding of what is really going on.
They need to define what is soul? Is it the appearance or the way Mangini plays the drums if they say yes then the next question what is more important the sound that Mangini creates or the way he looks?
Same with people saying Petrucci has no soul they better define what soul is in Music before they just throw out arbitrary none sense.
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*raises hand*
To be fair, I'm no more tired of it than I am of folks who insist that shred guitar isn't "emotional".
Those people are nit pickers if they want soul on guitar they should just listen to BB.King (whicis is great blues guitarist BTW) or Guitarist that specializes in the Genre its like me complaining that a certain classical guitarist got no blues chops!
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First of all: I like both drummers. I Think MM an amazing drummer and seeing him live is pretty satisfying.
With that said, I prefer MP simply because of the flow of the music. I understand why people say MM is robotic. I recently saw MP playing again live(last saw him for the progressive nation tour in2009) and his style to me is just so much better. MM is a better drummer, more technical. But MP has a better flow to his music which I prefer over technicality.
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Me for sure. I've seen the dude with DT 3 times and he's killed it every time. He's energetic, fun to watch, we all know he's got impossible chops/technical skills, but he puts his soul into every note he plays. You can hear it in his interviews about his playing as well. He's so passionate. I love MP's parts, but I love many of MM's just as well, and he's much more accurate live. MP is a great drummer but he has many timing issues even in recordings.
I prefer many of Portnoy's parts played live by MM over MP's actual album performance.
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First of all: I like both drummers. I Think MM an amazing drummer and seeing him live is pretty satisfying.
With that said, I prefer MP simply because of the flow of the music. I understand why people say MM is robotic. I recently saw MP playing again live(last saw him for the progressive nation tour in2009) and his style to me is just so much better. MM is a better drummer, more technical. But MP has a better flow to his music which I prefer over technicality.
For me it was the opposite, I saw MP playing (last time I saw him was in 2007) and I can say that I enjoyed much more MM behind DT's drumkit. I felt that MP overplayed the songs, besides hearing the same tricks. Of course both are really amazing drummers and actually both are on my list of favorite drummers, but I prefer MM.
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When I finally saw MM live last July, one of the things I really remember was when he was playing Breaking All Illusions. In the intro, in the parts where there were sudden transitions, he was messing with the crowd. He was acting as if he would hit the snare, then he won't, then he would make a funny face at the audience. :lol
Then when the band played Metropolis, it was like the DT Philippines crowd finally giving their acceptance to MM as a worthy DT drummer. He passed the test. :rollin
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When I finally saw MM live last July, one of the things I really remember was when he was playing Breaking All Illusions. In the intro, in the parts where there were sudden transitions, he was messing with the crowd. He was acting as if he would hit the snare, then he won't, then he would make a funny face at the audience. :lol
Then when the band played Metropolis, it was like the DT Philippines crowd finally giving their acceptance to MM as a worthy DT drummer. He passed the test. :rollin
The Pinoy DT crowd since to be more accepting of MM from the start offcourse there are still some FB and Youtube post saying "Portnoy parin" etc. But that does not mean they diss MM or say he is robotix or what not its just they prefer MP.
I think the departure of MP is much more complicated to accept for a Drummer who is a big DT fan and fan of MP as well that may be a bit tricky to reconcile as they still want to listen and play DT songs without MP.
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Then there is this stupid Pinoy fan who shouted Portnoy while MM is doing his drum solo.
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For fairness sake, if people aren't allowed to say that MM has no soul in his playing, then people aren't allowed to say that he does. Especially since the argument generally seems to be a lack of definition or simply "nuh uh" "yuh huh".
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Then there is this stupid Pinoy fan who shouted Portnoy while MM is doing his drum solo.
Hah..... that guy most be baked or stoned!
I am at the first row of the orchestra section and there is this annoying man in his mid 40s probably high with Marijuana or some drug and keep singing along but he sings the lyrics way in advance like two or three bars ahead its like he brags about that he knows the lyrics.
And during the Drum Solo he just Yelled a very corrnie Joke he yelled. Mike Mike Mike Manginii in a Bottle!
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i was watching this drum cam of Lost not forgotten from Mangini https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnqojyUeTc8 and i find it "swinging" a really good drummer i find nothing robotic.
on the other hand MP always was/is one of my favorite drummers however a few days back i was watching some vid of his with DT and began to irritate on a little bit too much overplay from his side or i began to notice it now.Although i love his drumming i quit the song.If i recall which one it was i'll post it here.
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Personally, I think the 'this/that musician or song has more/less feeling than this other song/musician' dicussion point is absurd, almost to the point of being silly because everyone feels and lives music in a different way. A particular piece of music can be of extreme emotional impact to me and not to the person next to me, and that doesn't make such piece of music better or worse. One has only to see Mangini's expressions and body language to feel what he's feeling and going through while performing DT's music. If you feel he doesn't translate that well to you in the same way Portnoy did, that's totally fine; but that doesn't mean there's no 'feeling' involved in his performance, you know? I can only imagine that the vocal minority of people that spend 3+ hours on YouTube posting derogatory comments towards Mangini and his 'soullessness' are mostly Mike Portnoy diehard fans who either cannot accept their idol is not part of Dream theater anymore or that just refuse to listen with objective ears and hearts to this new iteration of the band or maybe people that just don't know how to deal with change in any given situation in life.
It's OK if you don't like Mangini's style or approach, but implying that he has no 'feeling' while performing DT music is just silly and pointless; and definitely one of the reasons I've stopped discussing Dream Theater (and progressive music, for that matter) with a lot of people throughout the years (with the exception of course being this lovely forum).
That's my take on the matter. I hope didn't bore you fine people with it. Love. :heart
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Mangini has his strengths and weaknesses like everybody else, but not having "feel" and "soul" in his playing isn't something I'd attribute to him.
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I found him the most entertaining person to watch when seeing the band live. He's so animated behind the kit, always pulling faces, smirking and just looks like he's having an absolute blast for the entire show. Couldn't help but spend most the show watching him when the I&W Anniversary tour came to Scotland last year which I can't say i'd do for many other drummers.
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For fairness sake, if people aren't allowed to say that MM has no soul in his playing, then people aren't allowed to say that he does. Especially since the argument generally seems to be a lack of definition or simply "nuh uh" "yuh huh".
Not in here. If someone said they find Mangini "robotic" and "soulless", they would get crucified in an instant.
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I am one of the most vocal fans of Mangini here, but I can see how some could find his playing soulless because he is always plays on the beat. He doesn't play behind the beat, which is why his drumming in ballad type songs like AFTR is not his strong suit.
The criticism of MM's drumming which I can not get, though, is when people say that Mangini makes a simple 4/4 beat sound more complex than it is. Really? I dare anybody to point me any section where MM actually makes a 4/4 not sound like 4/4. If anything, he makes complex patterns sound simple, which is why many do not "hear" the polyrhythms in OTBOA, Enigma Machine, and IT. The funny thing is that people who make this criticism are all praises for pieces like TDOE which is the textbook definition of complex drumming for complexity's sake.
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Sick to death of it. Dude should buy a soul already.
I don't know as I'd go so far as to honestly call the dude soulless, but I can definitely see why people have that feeling for a variety of reasons. He replaced somebody who was animated and engaged, and who contributed a great deal of character to the band. He's Barry Manilow to MP's Barry White. I've seen MM plenty of times, and I usually find him interesting to watch but mostly on a technical level. He's never moved me or inspired me. To his credit he seems happy as can be when he plays, and it rubs off on you when you watch him, but it never really translates to playing with feel or contributing energy to the performance.
There's also a trickle down effect on the entire band. There's a sterility that wasn't there in the past. DT is a band more concerned with flawless recreation than playing with heart now, and that magnifies the view that Mangini is robotic. To JLB's credit he's putting more effort into energizing the live show, but that's a far cry from where they used to be.
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I wouldn't call him "soulless," but he's being compared to Mike Portnoy . . . Most drummers would lose in that contest when it comes to "soul."
I loved Mike Mangini in Extreme. I simply prefer the original DT drummer.
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I think that when most people talk about "soulless" they are referring to the writing of the music and MM's style of playing not so much his live performance which I agree is very energetic. There is a big difference between the drumming now and when MP was involved in the writing. MM's drumming does not assert itself and take center stage at times in songs like MP's did. It feels as if JP and JR do the composing and the drums are fit into their ideas, never the other way around. When MP was involved in the writing he would compose with the drums in mind in the initial composition and be there every step of the way. I remember first listening to DT and that was one of the things that really jumped out. I could feel the presence of the drummer in the compositions and see him featured as an instrumentalist like the others. I don't get that feeling so far with MM in the band. It doesn't feel like we get to see his personality, which many rightly see is great live, in the composition of the music. I know many probebly disagree with this but I notice something different and I think this difference is what many people are trying to get at. Souless just might be there way of saying that something has changed and they are not crazy about it.
I don't even know if this is really his fault. JP and JR being the lead composers need to give him more freedom and let him take center stage more. If he is doing anything wrong it might be that MM needs to be more assertive in the composing process.
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I think that when most people talk about "soulless" they are referring to the writing of the music and MM's style of playing not so much his live performance which I agree is very energetic. There is a big difference between the drumming now and when MP was involved in the writing. MM's drumming does not assert itself and take center stage at times in songs like MP's did. It feels as if JP and JR do the composing and the drums are fit into their ideas, never the other way around. When MP was involved in the writing he would compose with the drums in mind in the initial composition and be there every step of the way. I remember first listening to DT and that was one of the things that really jumped out. I could feel the presence of the drummer in the compositions and see him featured as an instrumentalist like the others. I don't get that feeling so far with MM in the band. It doesn't feel like we get to see his personality, which many rightly see is great live, in the composition of the music. I know many probebly disagree with this but I notice something different and I think this difference is what many people are trying to get at. Souless just might be there way of saying that something has changed and they are not crazy about it.
I don't even know if this is really his fault. JP and JR being the lead composers need to give him more freedom and let him take center stage more. If he is doing anything wrong it might be that MM needs to be more assertive in the composing process.
It may also be that MM just has a different drumming philosophy than MP. MP plays the drums like a lead instrument. MM, on the other hand, treats the drum seriously as a rhythm instrument. His MO as a drummer from his first recording up to now is to to highlight what the other instruments are doing while providing a solid rhythmic backbone. He is not the type of drummer that calls attention to himself.
You could see it in how he changed parts of I&W songs in their current tour. It's not the attention-calling drum fills that he changed. It's in how the drums sync up with the keys and the guitars going up and down scales.
In DT12, in the parts where he acknowledged he had a lot of input, you would not hear the drums taking center stage. Instead, you would hear distinct rhythmic patterns. Like the "Mothers for the children..." part in Illumination Theory.
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MM is actually quite animated and entertaining. Just watch him on LALP and BTFW dvd's. He's playing his heart out and smiles all the time. He takes a very unique approach to the drums and has amazing chops!
People that say he is robotic or souless don't know what they're talking about..
Exactly.. But they don't because the terms are very subjective themselves, and not just because.. What does it mean "robotic" and, especially, what does it mean "soulless"?..
As @Adami and @DarkLord_Lalinc said, the problem is to think one can judge and say "this musician has soul" and "this other one hasn't" only based in what?.. Their looks? their techniques? their styles?.... their smiles?.. No.. We can't do that.. We shouldn't do that.. Otherwise we'd be thinking that Myung doesn't have soul or, even worse, that he doesn't like playing because he doesn't "smile" on stage.. He doesn't smile almost anywhere! Because he's like that, and Mangini smiles because he's like that..
Two very separate things to really feel and like what you're playing and your own way to express those feelings to the rest of the world..
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I think people are getting hung up about the specifics of people's discontent here. Most people are ill-equipped to voice the exact musical reasons why they don't engage with MM as much as with MP. It's a bit like people saying "I didn't like this dish, I dunno. It was bland."
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Most people are ill-equipped to voice the exact musical reasons why they don't engage with MM as much as with MP. It's a bit like people saying "I didn't like this dish, I dunno. It was bland."
Who can, though? Very often, it is just the way it is. I'm kind of having to learn that myself now. Many times, I simply cannot grasp why other people absolutely despise a song/album/band that I absolutely adore. Complete polar opposite reactions to exactly the same music. Am I right to love the music? Or are they right to hate it? Which is the correct response to it? It's a conscious, and incredibly hard, effort to just say "It is what it is." It does, however, make music an intensely personal experience that only you can truly enjoy, on your own. You eventually retreat into your own shell and just enjoy the music you enjoy without publicly saying so. It can be frustrating sometimes, but it is the way it is.
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I think MM is a complete drummer and band member, which includes his relationship with the other band members. There's a lot to be said about that. Now, whether he thinks he contributes to the final product as much as he would like or not is between him and the band. I think they are all professional enough to figure that out amongst themselves.
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Listen to the drums here, they sound just awesome. In fact the audio is awesome all round. Too bad the video is terrible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED8_xaxeiWk&t=1s
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Listen to the drums here, they sound just awesome. In fact the audio is awesome all round. Too bad the video is terrible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED8_xaxeiWk&t=1s
Someone dubbed the recording from the Happy Holidays release with fan shot video. This is cool.
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I don't think they even played TCoT on the BC&SL tour, at least not at the Phx show. That would've been so cool to see live. Awesome!
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I don't think they even played TCoT on the BC&SL tour, at least not at the Phx show. That would've been so cool to see live. Awesome!
Define BC&SL tour
They played it in LA during ProgNation 09. I was incredibly disappointed with that show at the time because they had a whole thing with Steve Vai and Dweezil coming out and doing a 4 way shred battle, and then they encored with TCOT in the end. I was a newer fan and really hadn't listened to TCOT much yet. I wanted to hear Metropolis, Damn it!
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Non-thread related, but in that video is such a cool shadow effect with JP:
https://youtu.be/ED8_xaxeiWk?t=313
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Maybe they should bring back TCoT to their live set. It really seems to suit JLB's voice. Cool video.
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Non-thread related, but in that video is such a cool shadow effect with JP:
https://youtu.be/ED8_xaxeiWk?t=313
Whoa. You aren't kidding.
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A good recent Music Radar interview witH Mangini:
https://www.musicradar.com/news/mike-mangini-talks-philosophy-visualising-sound-and-having-his-soul-ripped-apart
He might record next DT album with his smaller clinic kit. Good! Maybe Chycki could finally get the right sound, as they always had a problem with the bleed with the large kit.
He freaking improvised the drums for TA in the studio.
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To the OP: I am. Really tired of people accusing him of having no feel or being a robot, only because he's not Portnoy. Just listen to the drum parts on TA, he plays with a lot of ghots notes on many tracks and has definitely great sense of groove and orchestration.
What's really sad is the fact that some people think they can only like MP or MM, but not both, and since some of them are diehard MP fanboys, they just judge Mangini with a very narrow mindset.
Getting Mangini is one of the best things that have happened to DT in the last decade, imo.
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*raises hand*
To be fair, I'm no more tired of it than I am of folks who insist that shred guitar isn't "emotional".
What's even worse than that are people who complain about lack of emotion when a guitar player (or any other musician) is just demonstrating some highly skilled technique. It's not supposed to be emotional.
Years ago I was talking to someone about music and they said something like, "Oh so you like the more cold technical approach" insinuating that there was no "emotion" in the music I listened to. I just smiled and nodded. I'm not going to bother convincing someone that just because emotion is expressed in a way they don't like doesn't mean there's no emotion in the music :lol
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*raises hand*
To be fair, I'm no more tired of it than I am of folks who insist that shred guitar isn't "emotional".
What's even worse than that are people who complain about lack of emotion when a guitar player (or any other musician) is just demonstrating some highly skilled technique. It's not supposed to be emotional.
Years ago I was talking to someone about music and they said something like, "Oh so you like the more cold technical approach" insinuating that there was no "emotion" in the music I listened to. I just smiled and nodded. I'm not going to bother convincing someone that just because emotion is expressed in a way they don't like doesn't mean there's no emotion in the music :lol
Those type of comments you describe usually comes from snobs who have the talent for melody but haven't studied or have very little understanding of Music theory and don't have the technical facility to do some fast runs
Its best to stay away from musicians like that. I have encountered a lot of those types in Music college specially those Jazz Funk wannabees who thinks improvisation is all and only thing that is great in music.
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*raises hand*
To be fair, I'm no more tired of it than I am of folks who insist that shred guitar isn't "emotional".
What's even worse than that are people who complain about lack of emotion when a guitar player (or any other musician) is just demonstrating some highly skilled technique. It's not supposed to be emotional.
Years ago I was talking to someone about music and they said something like, "Oh so you like the more cold technical approach" insinuating that there was no "emotion" in the music I listened to. I just smiled and nodded. I'm not going to bother convincing someone that just because emotion is expressed in a way they don't like doesn't mean there's no emotion in the music :lol
I don't know, I'm a little confused by the italicized part. Joy at accomplishing a particularly difficult run isn't an emotion? I think what nearly every commentators means by "emotion" is in a range of depressive to spiritual elation. I think we experience a much greater range of emotion in our lives.
Take the sublime emotion of laughter for example. Name a song that you think was a great example of the musician's craft that is also humorous. I'll wait...
...for whatever reason, these are always seen as a novelty or a gag. I happen to disagree and it's partially why I've kept my avatar as the cover of Studio Tan for so many years. I find that album hilarious and also a very challenging listen for its excellent music.
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A good recent Music Radar interview witH Mangini:
https://www.musicradar.com/news/mike-mangini-talks-philosophy-visualising-sound-and-having-his-soul-ripped-apart
He might record next DT album with his smaller clinic kit. Good! Maybe Chycki could finally get the right sound, as they always had a problem with the bleed with the large kit.
He freaking improvised the drums for TA in the studio.
Cool interview, I've often wondered if MM's non-traditional setup was hard to capture in the studio. Maybe going to his clinic kit, which is much more traditional, will help them capture a better kit sound in the studio.
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A good recent Music Radar interview witH Mangini:
https://www.musicradar.com/news/mike-mangini-talks-philosophy-visualising-sound-and-having-his-soul-ripped-apart
He might record next DT album with his smaller clinic kit. Good! Maybe Chycki could finally get the right sound, as they always had a problem with the bleed with the large kit.
He freaking improvised the drums for TA in the studio.
Cool interview, I've often wondered if MM's non-traditional setup was hard to capture in the studio. Maybe going to his clinic kit, which is much more traditional, will help them capture a better kit sound in the studio.
He's been slowly scaling down his big DT kit on each tour, anyway. His ADTOE tour kit had much more stuff than the one he plays now.
I'm not one of those people who think that less is more, but I don't think a different approach would be bad for the DT14 drum recordings. I just want someone like Nolly Getgood or Jens Bogren to mix the drums :hefdaddy
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I didn’t know what I knew, I didn’t know what it was until I spent a lot of time reading and researching. It’s like this, you can pay $25 for a book which contains 300-400 years worth of knowledge, that’s a good way to spend $25. I can spend $25 on a few beers that I will just pee out. What do I get for that $25? Well, it might be a little fun but that book could change my life.
WTAF? :lol
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A good recent Music Radar interview witH Mangini:
https://www.musicradar.com/news/mike-mangini-talks-philosophy-visualising-sound-and-having-his-soul-ripped-apart
He might record next DT album with his smaller clinic kit. Good! Maybe Chycki could finally get the right sound, as they always had a problem with the bleed with the large kit.
He freaking improvised the drums for TA in the studio.
Cool interview, I've often wondered if MM's non-traditional setup was hard to capture in the studio. Maybe going to his clinic kit, which is much more traditional, will help them capture a better kit sound in the studio.
I think MM realized that he actually doesn't use the whole kit for new songs. The reason why his touring kit is so big is because he tries to capture all the drum sounds in the MP era.
Best example are the cannon drums / octobans. He never played those before he joined DT. That's why it ended up in the overhead position. MP played octobans before so MM had to place them in his kit. In the MM-era songs, those octobans were used prominently only four times: BAI intro, Outcry drum "solo", and the IT and Enigma Machine drum fill.
This seems to be a reasonable set-up.
(https://scontent.fmnl4-3.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/17504590_1268873989828023_7898456607293844803_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=ee868120bcc11fda2f74a8507c29d046&oe=5AA123CB)
It is his clinic kit plus the cannon drums and with an overload of chinas. :P
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The extra chinas are his usual set of 5 stacks ;D
And Mike has used the rocket toms (Pearl's octobans) a lot more on the last 3 albums. I think he uses them in a better way than Portnoy. MP used his octobans on very cool ways on Awake, but after that he's mostly used them just for long fills and not much else.
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I found it interesting:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/40m73i/mike_mangini_posts_response_to_criticism_of_the/
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Mangini tacos!
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I found it interesting:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/40m73i/mike_mangini_posts_response_to_criticism_of_the/
Is he always that inarticulate? I have no idea WTF he's trying to say.
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I found it interesting:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/40m73i/mike_mangini_posts_response_to_criticism_of_the/
I remember that, he answered a lot of similar comments and I saved screenshots of all of them. Seems to me that he's not too happy with the sound they've given to his drums, but he trusts JP's and Chycki's judgement enough not to complain about it.
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For me, it's not about having soul, or feeling the music, or anything like that. But what MP represents to the band, he's to DT what Lars Ulrich was to Metallica, and that means being head to creative process for the whole band. I don't know to explain but it's something that you feel right away, just watch the Score documentary and you'll see.
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He's been pretty vocal about not being a fan of his drum mixes on DT albums and I remember before The Astonishing was released, someone commented on his page that they hope the snare sounds better than it did on the self titled and he responded back and said that the problem was fixed. And it was, to a degree.
I'm sorry, his drums sound triggered to me.
Commenting on the topic, I don't think of Mangini as being soulless, watching the man live is a treat. The drummer in Dream Theater remains the person that interacts with the audience the most and his playing keeps on progressing
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And Mike has used the rocket toms (Pearl's octobans) a lot more on the last 3 albums. I think he uses them in a better way than Portnoy. MP used his octobans on very cool ways on Awake, but after that he's mostly used them just for long fills and not much else.
That's the thing about Mangini. He never used those drums before but when he added it to his kit to play old DT songs, he adjusted his style so that it would now be part of his arsenal of techniques.
I found it interesting:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/40m73i/mike_mangini_posts_response_to_criticism_of_the/
I remember that, he answered a lot of similar comments and I saved screenshots of all of them. Seems to me that he's not too happy with the sound they've given to his drums, but he trusts JP's and Chycki's judgement enough not to complain about it.
And that's another Mangini thing. He is open to other's ideas. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Drummers who continuously grow have this attitude. Virgil Donati, for example, downtuned his snare in the Icefish album based on Marco Sfogli and Alex Argento's suggestion. He did not think it would work, but he trusted them even though he was the producer of Icefish's album. Fortunately, it really worked out well.
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And that's another Mangini thing. He is open to other's ideas. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Drummers who continuously grow have this attitude. Virgil Donati, for example, downtuned his snare in the Icefish album based on Marco Sfogli and Alex Argento's suggestion. He did not think it would work, but he trusted them even though he was the producer of Icefish's album. Fortunately, it really worked out well.
Didn't know that about Virgil's snare tuning. Glad they did it, because I was never a fan of his super high tuned snare, it sounded very weak imo.
For me, it's not about having soul, or feeling the music, or anything like that. But what MP represents to the band, he's to DT what Lars Ulrich was to Metallica, and that means being head to creative process for the whole band. I don't know to explain but it's something that you feel right away, just watch the Score documentary and you'll see.
A very overrated drummer who refuses to get better on his craft? :biggrin:
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I do think a lot of Mangini's "feel" play gets lost on the shitty drum sounds and mixes on these last three studio albums. He uses a lot ghost notes and cymbal/ride nuances here and there. The 24 bit version of ADTOE highlights these nuances the most. Live at Luna Park also highlights his "feel" play.
Ultimately, Mike should push for a better drum sound: whether it's Chycky capturing/recording a bad quality sound; or change the drum kit to let less bleed in from the adjacent mics; a combination of both....the drum sound on the Enemy Inside video that Mike recorded for a clinic has an awesome sound; although in my opinion, the Zildjian cymbals he uses on that video sound a bit thin to my taste.
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*raises hand*
To be fair, I'm no more tired of it than I am of folks who insist that shred guitar isn't "emotional".
What's even worse than that are people who complain about lack of emotion when a guitar player (or any other musician) is just demonstrating some highly skilled technique. It's not supposed to be emotional.
Years ago I was talking to someone about music and they said something like, "Oh so you like the more cold technical approach" insinuating that there was no "emotion" in the music I listened to. I just smiled and nodded. I'm not going to bother convincing someone that just because emotion is expressed in a way they don't like doesn't mean there's no emotion in the music :lol
I don't know, I'm a little confused by the italicized part. Joy at accomplishing a particularly difficult run isn't an emotion? I think what nearly every commentators means by "emotion" is in a range of depressive to spiritual elation. I think we experience a much greater range of emotion in our lives.
Take the sublime emotion of laughter for example. Name a song that you think was a great example of the musician's craft that is also humorous. I'll wait...
...for whatever reason, these are always seen as a novelty or a gag. I happen to disagree and it's partially why I've kept my avatar as the cover of Studio Tan for so many years. I find that album hilarious and also a very challenging listen for its excellent music.
I was thinking more of people who criticize a lack of emotion by defining emotion as having "feeling" or "soul" whatever that means. Specifically, I was commenting on those who criticize a lack of emotion when some guitar guy is just demonstrating a technique like in an instructional video or something.
This is what I was thinking about when I made that post:
Fastest guitarist in the world: 27 notes per second on guitar (Sergiy Putyatov) Guinness Record 2012:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWcB84Gn1lU
When I first watched that video, I could've sworn there was at least one person complaining about about the "emotionz". Complaining about no emotion in these circumstances is like complaining about a lack of T&A in a kids movie.
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I believe that DT would eventually get Mangini's sound right. Mangini once said that there were two recordings that really captured how he hears his drums: Mullmuzzler II and Elements of Persuasion. Elements of Persuasion was engineered by Richard Chycki. So Rich knows how to get his sound, maybe they were just experimenting with JP's ideas as producer and they may also be really adjusting to his large kit.
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Yeah, but I mean, no band, not even DT, has 5 albums' time to dial in on the drum sound finally.
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I believe that DT would eventually get Mangini's sound right.
Eventually? It's been 7 years. :rollin If there actually was a problem with MM's sound, I'm sure they would've figured that out by now.
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I believe that DT would eventually get Mangini's sound right.
Eventually? It's been 7 years. :rollin If there actually was a problem with MM's sound, I'm sure they would've figured that out by now.
Oh they've figured it out alright, Breaking The Fourth Wall.
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I believe that DT would eventually get Mangini's sound right.
Eventually? It's been 7 years. :rollin If there actually was a problem with MM's sound, I'm sure they would've figured that out by now.
Oh they've figured it out alright, Breaking The Fourth Wall.
You got that right. Incredible!! :tup :tup
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Funny how BTFW not only has the amazing drum sound, it also brings back a lot of the MP-style "lead drums" approach. I feel like if MM always sounded/played like that, he'd have long been accepted by the vast majority of the base.
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Mangini didn't change much of the drums in BTFW compared to studio versions of Mangini-era songs. So I don't get how he took a more lead drums approach in that album.
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I believe that DT would eventually get Mangini's sound right. Mangini once said that there were two recordings that really captured how he hears his drums: Mullmuzzler II and Elements of Persuasion. Elements of Persuasion was engineered by Richard Chycki. So Rich knows how to get his sound, maybe they were just experimenting with JP's ideas as producer and they may also be really adjusting to his large kit.
I went off and listened to the drums on Elements of Persuasion - they sound great! The cymbals/hats are ringing out clearly, and the snare sounds tighter than on the last two DT albums. I'd be happy with that sound on the next record.
BTFW also sounds pretty good to my ears - you can hear all the intricate things he's doing on the hi-hats. Maybe the snare could be a little bit punchier, but that's about it.
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Mangini didn't change much of the drums in BTFW compared to studio versions of Mangini-era songs. So I don't get how he took a more lead drums approach in that album.
Yup, it's really just a result of the mix. He's louder and more defined in the mix, but didn't really change his parts from the studio stuff he recorded. He switched up some MP stuff, but stayed pretty true to his own studio recordings for the most part.
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I think Mangini should write his own 'As I Am' song
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FWIW, DT was on fire for the Chicago show on Nov 3rd and MM was not only great, but he was easily the most talkative and openly friendly at the meet and greet. The only concern I had was at the end of the show when James had to help MM get down from the drum riser. Poor guy looked like he was really hurting. His playing was awesome though.
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FWIW, DT was on fire for the Chicago show on Nov 3rd and MM was not only great, but he was easily the most talkative and openly friendly at the meet and greet. The only concern I had was at the end of the show when James had to help MM get down from the drum riser. Poor guy looked like he was really hurting. His playing was awesome though.
What was wrong with Mangini?
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Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just found this vid that was posted more than a year ago.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=58KFlF1SRoI
Damn. Coupled with the Zildjian The Enemy Inside video, I am almost tempted to call for a re-record of DT12 to do justice to Mangini.
He did make some mistakes in that clinic audio but no big deal. Hehehe
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Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just found this vid that was posted more than a year ago.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=58KFlF1SRoI
Damn. Coupled with the Zildjian The Enemy Inside video, I am almost tempted to call for a re-record of DT12 to do justice to Mangini.
He did make some mistakes in that clinic audio but no big deal. Hehehe
It's videos like that one, and the recent Xanadu cover, that reinforce my belief that the drum production and/or mix are feeding into this "soulless" accusation. I'm really hoping MM gets more of a say into the production of his drums on the next record.
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There is definitely an issue with how MM's drums are produced on DT albums.
Having seen him in person, he sounds so much more dynamic and powerful live.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnqojyUeTc8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnqojyUeTc8)
Check this video, where drums are more upfront and the cymbals are so clear and loud.
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Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just found this vid that was posted more than a year ago.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=58KFlF1SRoI
Damn. Coupled with the Zildjian The Enemy Inside video, I am almost tempted to call for a re-record of DT12 to do justice to Mangini.
He did make some mistakes in that clinic audio but no big deal. Hehehe
That sounded worlds better in terms of feel and presence. There's no question in my mind that if MM's drums were mixed and produced more like MP's were (on records like SFAM, SDOIT, FII, etc...) a lot of people would have different opinions of his playing.
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I agree with most people's opinions. MMs drum sound is taking a lot of emotion and small nuances out of his playing. You can really hear that when you see him live or on the Xanadu cover. Also, that project MM has been playing on, Into The Great Divide, showcases how great he sounds, when JP would let him (because let's face it, this is JPs "fault").
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One set of ears isn't enough. JP is so used to writing with a drum machine that he mixes MM to sound that way without realizing it. JP is so used to writing vocals with pitch correction, that he didn't notice that Far From Heaven sounds heavily pitch corrected. JP plays guitar so fast that he doesn't realize he's aged 100 years and grew a massive beard.
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Do we know who mixed the Xanadu cover? Was it Rich Chycki on his own? Maybe it is just a matter of JP stepping back a little, and letting someone else take the lead on mixing the drums.
(The pitch correction on TA does bother me a little. It's one of those things that once you hear it, you'll always notice it at that same point in the song.)