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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Skeever on July 17, 2017, 05:05:42 PM
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DT's lineup has been pretty stable, as far as most bands go these days. Over 20+ years, only two members have been fired, and two walked away on their own accord. It's seems that DT leadership (read: Petrucci) are relatively happy to keep things stable, even when some members fade off into the background (Myung) or give inconsistent performance (LaBrie).
So I'm really curious - what's DT's next lineup change, and why?
If I had to guess, I would say "Mangini leaves amicably on his own terms" either this album cycle or next. Not sure why, I feel that way, but the guy seems to not love touring so much, and also seems to be the kind of person who doesn't like to stay in once place for too long.
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I think DT is done with changes. The only exception being the drummer spot. I could see Mangini choosing to leave.
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I can see Jordan being the next to go. He's a few years older than the rest of them and he may not feel up to touring anymore in the coming years. It wouldn't be an explosive split like with Portnoy. It would simply be JR retiring.
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I can see Jordan being the next to go. He's a few years older than the rest of them and he may not feel up to touring anymore in the coming years. It wouldn't be an explosive split like with Portnoy. It would simply be JR retiring.
This. I can imagine the touring might get to be too much for him. Plus with all his solo work and app development stuff on the side, there's plenty to both keep him busy and (I would imagine) well financially.
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I would agree, I think and I hope that this is the ultimate line-up, but if something changes, it will be either because of Jordan feeling he's old enough to tour, or Mangini getting other priorities in life and leaving of his own accord.
In the "Too old to tour" scenario could Jordan just remain in DT and write the songs with Petrucci, and let someone else be a touring member? or it would be unfair to say "I'm in the band, you just play my songs on tour" to a young replacement?
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In the "Too old to tour" scenario could Jordan just remain in DT and write the songs with Petrucci, and let someone else be a touring member? or it would be unfair to say "I'm in the band, you just play my songs on tour" to a young replacement?
Not the same, but in Within Temptation, their guitarist Robert writes/records with the band, but then has someone else tour in his place.
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I don't follow the band but I know them - unless I'm wrong I think that's for a very specific reason, he has a son (or daughter?) with the singer and so one of the parents has to stay at home. He stays because you can't obviously replace the singer.
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In the "Too old to tour" scenario could Jordan just remain in DT and write the songs with Petrucci, and let someone else be a touring member? or it would be unfair to say "I'm in the band, you just play my songs on tour" to a young replacement?
I doubt it would happen - remember when before the split MP offered to do some occasional work with DT in 2011, but the rest of the guys turned it down? I think the band's (or at least JP's) mentality is "you're in 100% or you're out."
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Well, most assume Jordan will leave due to his age but I guess that would be James because his issues with voice. Not that I say he is bad now but considering compelling vocals and long live schedule he would choose retiring for the sake of his own and the band.
As for me, yes Petrucci main writer and the key element of the band but if James leaves I'll probably lose interest.
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They could always tune down just like they did with Images and Words, and write future records according to his range. I doubt James will quit just because he won't be able to sing Learning to Live anymore.
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For me, I think that it is inevitable that Mike Portnoy will one day return so I'm going Mangini out and Portnoy in. This could be down to Mangini not wanting to continue or could be the case that DT may get to a stage where album/ticket sales reduce and they feel that they need a boost and MP's return would perhaps do that to an extent. I certainly think they will have seen the rapturous reviews of the Shattered Fortress shows and you've then got the prospect of the upcoming prog metal project with Derek. Feels a little like when Bruce Dickinson teamed up with Adrian Smith and started making Iron Maiden sounding solo albums to great acclaim and eventually they went back to him as the Blaze Bayley albums and tours were not on the same scale as before.
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With due respect to Portnoy's importance in the history of the band and personality, in the end he was the drummer. For the kind of band that DT is, that always have his own core fanbase (Hell, the venue where I first saw them in 1999 is the same venue where I last saw them this year), Portnoy's return wouldn't be tectonic shift that James' return would have been, had he gone from the band, or, say, Chris De Garmo returning to Queensryche when they weren't still bogged down in bad situations with Tate.
Yeah, he would be welcomed back by many, and the resulting album would get quite the attention, but in the big scheme of things, it would not be a major game changer like it was for Maiden.
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I guess maybe JR retiring could be the next lineup change, but he seems like he could go a lot longer. It's not like being the keyboard player takes a toll like a vocalist or drummer. His hands seem fine still, which is pretty much all he needs. He could start sitting at his keyboard in concert like many other keyboardists do, and I think he could keep going for a long while. Whether he will want to, I have no clue, but he probably could.
As far as MM, I'm unsure what the future holds. I think if the leadership in the band (JP and JR) make him feel much more involved in the writing and arranging process for the next album or the next couple albums, I think he'll be fine. It does seem like touring might not agree with him, and I get that, but DT's touring schedules aren't that bad, they usually schedule breaks to go home, so I think he can continue just fine. Now if those things don't happen or continue to happen, I could see him leaving, just based on comments he's made. If that happens I have no doubt that MP would be the drummer in DT again.
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This is a very interesting thread about something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
I agree with many people here that JR would want to retire from touring because of his age. I would say he stays for 2-3 more albums/tours before he decides to leave in an amicable way. I feel like he would focus on his solo career and app developmennt, as well as spending time with his family.
The other posibility, and one that I would like to happen, not because I dislike the guy, but because I think a change on this area could benefit the band, is James leaving.
I really like his voice and he was perfect on TA, but, tbh, he struggles a lot live and I would like to see how DT sounds with a different vocalist (not you, WDADU or Majesty demos).
About Mangini leaving, I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon, but, as some of you have said, he doesn't seem to like heavy touring too much.
Anyway, if he decides to leave, I don't think the band would ask Portnoy to return, the would get another drummer, imo.
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The other posibility, and one that I would like to happen, not because I dislike the guy, but because I think a change on this area could benefit the band, is James leaving.
I really like his voice and he was perfect on TA, but, tbh, he struggles a lot live and I would like to see how DT sounds with a different vocalist (not you, WDADU or Majesty demos).
Honestly, I'm not sure DT would continue if James left. At this point in their careers that would be a pretty big blow, MP leaving was one thing but James has been the literal voice of the band since I&W... That would be interesting.
About Mangini leaving, I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon, but, as some of you have said, he doesn't seem to like heavy touring too much.
Anyway, if he decides to leave, I don't think the band would ask Portnoy to return, the would get another drummer, imo.
I respectfully disagree, at this point if MM left, I'd be surprised if they went barking up another tree. I think they'd return to what they know.
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If JR decides to hang it up (due to age), does anybody think Derek would return to DT if he was offered the chance? Personally, I would love to have him back. I didn't think he was given a fair shot to begin with. Anyways, thoughts on this?
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If JR decides to hang it up (due to age), does anybody think Derek would return to DT if he was offered the chance? Personally, I would love to have him back. I didn't think he was given a fair shot to begin with. Anyways, thoughts on this?
Since as soon as 2004 (that was jsut 5 years after) he joined them for an encore, I don't think that so many years down the line, he still has some grudges about being booted. If the musical side of it interests him, I think he would be up for giving it a second go.
Also having Derek back would soften the blow of such another huge line-up change... "Ok, Jordan's gone, but someone of the family comes back".
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Most likely no lineup changes, but they are about due for a genre change. :p
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If there is going to be any changes, my guess is MM leaves on his own. Some of his social media posts seem like he gets really tired and exhausted from touring which is understandable, but I don't think he has as much of an emotional connection to DT as the other members do plus I think he will always have MP lurking in the distance. To me, if anyone were to quit, I think it would be him because of that.
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My money's on Myung being the next. Despite his age, Jordan seems to love touring. He's always posting about the places he's visiting and how much he enjoys meeting people and fans when he's just out sightseeing.
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If there is going to be any changes, my guess is MM leaves on his own. Some of his social media posts seem like he gets really tired and exhausted from touring which is understandable, but I don't think he has as much of an emotional connection to DT as the other members do plus I think he will always have MP lurking in the distance. To me, if anyone were to quit, I think it would be him because of that.
Maybe MM will ask for a five year break.
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Maybe MM will ask for a five year break.
And the band will agree because they don't want to lose him... :lol
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I'm with Cram. I don't get the impression Mangini's particularly fond of the situation. He'll leave on his own.
Rudess seems to really dig what he's got going. Their touring schedule is super-kind, and most of it is in cool places. He doesn't want to leave.
If JLB hasn't left a dozen times before, he's not going to leave now just because his voice tanks.
Myung will be a bass player until his death in 2069. It seems to be his entire life. What's he going to do, become a fisherman?
I would love to see DS return if Rudess retired. Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing the reverse of 1999 right now. However, that's not the direction JP would want to go.
Should MM leave, my bet, I have very real doubts that MP would be welcomed back. Two of them would be alright with it and two of them would object vociferously. In fact, that's probably the only way I could see JLB or JMX leaving the band.
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I think there is probably a 0% chance of any of them leaving. While each of them leads a very comfortable life and yes, could probably be considered "rich," none of them are millionaires and to maintain the type of lifestyle they lead, they need the band. Now, they may be gearing up to slow things down. 3 of the guys have kids that are college age. I think MM and JM have younger kids. That's expensive. So in five years or so, if they've all been good with their money, then yeah they may slow things down. Despite JR's age, he seems to love being in the band. I mean, at this point he is kind of the vice president (or perhaps assistant supreme overlord) to JP.
Even though DT's music is a bit more grueling that some of these other classic bands, Deep Purple is in their 70s and still touring, many other bands are in their late 60s, I think every current member of DT will make it close to ten more years and then put the band on ice. That would put JP and JR at age 60. JR in his early 70s. MM and JLB in their mid 60s.
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Maybe MM will ask for a five year break.
And the band will agree because they don't want to lose him... :lol
Obviously all of this is just fun and not serious, but if that happens then I think MP should be given free reign to say anything he wants on social media, no holds barred.
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Maybe MM will ask for a five year break.
And the band will agree because they don't want to lose him... :lol
Obviously all of this is just fun and not serious, but if that happens then I think MP should be given free reign to say anything he wants on social media, no holds barred.
He already does that though lol.
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Maybe MM will ask for a five year break.
And the band will agree because they don't want to lose him... :lol
Obviously all of this is just fun and not serious, but if that happens then I think MP should be given free reign to say anything he wants on social media, no holds barred.
He already does that though lol.
Free reign. No one would be allowed to criticize him for it.
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If there is going to be any changes, my guess is MM leaves on his own. Some of his social media posts seem like he gets really tired and exhausted from touring which is understandable, but I don't think he has as much of an emotional connection to DT as the other members do plus I think he will always have MP lurking in the distance. To me, if anyone were to quit, I think it would be him because of that.
Honestly, I hope Mangini gets over not wanting rock the boat and goes into the writing of the next album determined to get some of his ideas through. And he needs to be more forceful about how his drums sound on record.
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In the "Too old to tour" scenario could Jordan just remain in DT and write the songs with Petrucci, and let someone else be a touring member? or it would be unfair to say "I'm in the band, you just play my songs on tour" to a young replacement?
Not the same, but in Within Temptation, their guitarist Robert writes/records with the band, but then has someone else tour in his place.
That's only because someone needs to take care of the baby, and Sharon is the voice of WT and can't be replaced.
I also think Mangini will be next. That interview he did saying he wasn't happy not being included in the writing is telling. If it happens again, I wouldn't be surprised if he said adios, and I wouldn't blame him. Myung may not show it, but I think he's happy and comfortable, and Jordan always looks like he's having a blast.
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If there is going to be any changes, my guess is MM leaves on his own. Some of his social media posts seem like he gets really tired and exhausted from touring which is understandable, but I don't think he has as much of an emotional connection to DT as the other members do plus I think he will always have MP lurking in the distance. To me, if anyone were to quit, I think it would be him because of that.
Honestly, I hope Mangini gets over not wanting rock the boat and goes into the writing of the next album determined to get some of his ideas through. And he needs to be more forceful about how his drums sound on record.
Agree.
Same goes for James. Hope he gets to write lyrics for at least two songs. Hell, let Jordan or Mike write lyrics for a song as well if they so choose. I know Jordan writes lyrics, not sure about Mike.
Thankfully Petrucci's lyrics on DT12 and ADTOE were excellent so its hard to be too mad at him for dominating that sector but I want it to feel more like a band.
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If I remember correctly, there was an interview with JLB during the DT12 era and he talked about being frustrated that he wasn't more involved with lyrics and writing a song and apparently had one that he was interested in taking, but JP ended up writing the lyric. He said that he wouldn't let that happen again and then...well... The Astonishing..
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Maybe MM will ask for a five year break.
And the band will agree because they don't want to lose him... :lol
Obviously all of this is just fun and not serious, but if that happens then I think MP should be given free reign to say anything he wants on social media, no holds barred.
He already does that though lol.
Free reign. No one would be allowed to criticize him for it.
From now until the day he dies, no question.
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Maybe MM will ask for a five year break.
And the band will agree because they don't want to lose him... :lol
Obviously all of this is just fun and not serious, but if that happens then I think MP should be given free reign to say anything he wants on social media, no holds barred.
He already does that though lol.
Free reign. No one would be allowed to criticize him for it.
From now until the day he dies, no question.
Yeah, if that were to happen, there wouldn't be any complaints from me when MP starts talking shit. In fact, if DT did something like that, it might even put a damper on my enjoyment of them. That's cold.
That's worse than firing someone through Email the day they're supposed to go record vocals for the new album, and right before Christmas.
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If there is going to be any changes, my guess is MM leaves on his own. Some of his social media posts seem like he gets really tired and exhausted from touring which is understandable, but I don't think he has as much of an emotional connection to DT as the other members do plus I think he will always have MP lurking in the distance. To me, if anyone were to quit, I think it would be him because of that.
Honestly, I hope Mangini gets over not wanting rock the boat and goes into the writing of the next album determined to get some of his ideas through. And he needs to be more forceful about how his drums sound on record.
I really think DT needs to embrace this as well, for MM's sake. The guy seems like he wants to be involved more in the writing and they should let him, especially after doing an album that was really only JP and JR. I think next album they should be more open to collaborating with the rest of the band.
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That's worse than firing someone through Email the day they're supposed to go record vocals for the new album, and right before Christmas.
Ripper with Iced Earth, right?
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That's worse than firing someone through Email the day they're supposed to go record vocals for the new album, and right before Christmas.
Ripper with Iced Earth, right?
Yeah. Do I reference Iced Earth too much? :lol
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It's ironic how he was the replacement singer in Judas Priest, doomed basically from the start to get the boot, and he was treated way better by Priest than with Iced Earth where he was supposedly the perfect voice for the band.
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It's ironic how he was the replacement singer in Judas Priest, doomed basically from the start to get the boot, and he was treated way better by Priest than with Iced Earth where he was supposedly the perfect voice for the band.
Jon brought out the best in him though. I wish he could have sang on Crucible though. The ending to Come What May would have been more orgasmic than it already is.
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If I remember correctly, there was an interview with JLB during the DT12 era and he talked about being frustrated that he wasn't more involved with lyrics and writing a song and apparently had one that he was interested in taking, but JP ended up writing the lyric. He said that he wouldn't let that happen again and then...well... The Astonishing..
I don't quite remember it that way. James was saying that he didn't want to write lyrics for DT12 because he had just done his solo album. I still kind of think that was a diplomatic answer. I do remember him saying that he would definitely write some for the next one and then...yeah, Astonishing. Maybe MM will ask for a five year break.
And the band will agree because they don't want to lose him... :lol
Obviously all of this is just fun and not serious, but if that happens then I think MP should be given free reign to say anything he wants on social media, no holds barred.
He already does that though lol.
Free reign. No one would be allowed to criticize him for it.
From now until the day he dies, no question.
Yeah, if that were to happen, there wouldn't be any complaints from me when MP starts talking shit. In fact, if DT did something like that, it might even put a damper on my enjoyment of them. That's cold.
There's actually a huge difference. When MP wanted a break, the band were in their prime in a lot of ways. That would have killed a tremendous amount of momentum. If they were to take a break now or in a couple of years, they would simply be slowing down because they are nearing the actual age most people retire. Their job is also a tad more physically demanding than someone that works at an office.
I mean, it would be weird if MM were to want that and DT was like, "Cool, man." I doubt that would ever happen but I could see them making a mutual decision to take a break.
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That's worse than firing someone through Email the day they're supposed to go record vocals for the new album, and right before Christmas.
How about having the manager sack him while boarding the plane after a tour.
Hey, Terry.
Sorry, mate. This plane's for bandmembers only.
Right. That's why I
*slam*
Oh, bloody hell.
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That's worse than firing someone through Email the day they're supposed to go record vocals for the new album, and right before Christmas.
How about having the manager sack him while boarding the plane after a tour.
Hey, Terry.
Sorry, mate. This plane's for bandmembers only.
Right. That's why I
*slam*
Oh, bloody hell.
I got Zook's IE reference, but I got no clue what yours is.
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Tony Levin will replace John Myung on bass in approximately 9 months due to a fight with Mike Mangini. It is later discovered that Myung had been sleeping with Mangini's wife.
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Tony Levin will replace John Myung on bass in approximately 9 months due to a fight with Mike Mangini. It is later discovered that Myung had been sleeping with Mangini's wife.
:lol :lol :lol :lol
MM :flame: :mehlin JM
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Nobody is immune from burn-out or from any number of life changing events that completely change the way you look at your future.
Could be any one of them at any time for any reason.
My guess for the 2 most likely are Mangini and JR and of these 2 I think Mangini would be first. Nobody but him can know the weight
of being 'the guy who replaced Portnoy' and in addition to that weight he really doesn't love touring. But the main reason is that
I believe that he needs and wants to be a central component in the collaborative/creative process and so far he hasn't been. When you
read and listen to his comments over the last couple years he seems like a guy working very hard to find reasons to be grateful
and happy instead of a guy who really is grateful and happy. The guy has had his fill of session drumming. He is an artist who
is introspective and deep and has a need and desire to create.
The obvious point about JR is age and all that goes along with being an elder metal musician. When have you had enough of the grind?
Enough of the constant loudness, enough of life on the road...? Maybe never and maybe he is starting to feel like Neil Peart. He has
had a long career and he has other passions.
Bottom line is they are all getting to that stage in their lives and careers when momentous decisions and awakenings can happen
at any time.
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With due respect to Portnoy's importance in the history of the band and personality, in the end he was the drummer. For the kind of band that DT is, that always have his own core fanbase (Hell, the venue where I first saw them in 1999 is the same venue where I last saw them this year), Portnoy's return wouldn't be tectonic shift that James' return would have been, had he gone from the band, or, say, Chris De Garmo returning to Queensryche when they weren't still bogged down in bad situations with Tate.
Yeah, he would be welcomed back by many, and the resulting album would get quite the attention, but in the big scheme of things, it would not be a major game changer like it was for Maiden.
Yeah, not suggesting it would be as momentous as Dickinson coming back to Maiden, he's not the singer and the band are nowhere near that level. That's why I said a boost "to an extent", was kind of hedging my bets as to how big of a difference it would make. If popularity did begin to tail off then it may be worth a throw of the dice to get a bit of a boost in the short term at least. I do think a certain amount of goodwill has been lost with MP's departure and he would bring some people back to the fold. There are others who have been happier with DT's output post MP of course. I'm somewhere inbetween, happier with the more melodic proggy direction but the sentimental part of me would still be happy to see MP back along with the enthusiasm and excitement he gives all his projects.
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I'd welcome back MP if it would feel right for them. And if it was not a money thing, or a stunt.
Let's say that MP eventually patches things up with Myung and LaBrie, and they get all together and hug and say "ah, screw the past, happy carreer to each other", and then eventually Mangini leaves of his own accord and in a serene decision with the others... then I'd be all for it.
If instead it's all a "Damn, we need more exposure, let's just bring back Portnoy. James, call Mike and sort it out, he's back in, and someone let Mangini know he's out"... I would be quite bitter about it.
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If I remember correctly, there was an interview with JLB during the DT12 era and he talked about being frustrated that he wasn't more involved with lyrics and writing a song and apparently had one that he was interested in taking, but JP ended up writing the lyric. He said that he wouldn't let that happen again and then...well... The Astonishing..
I don't quite remember it that way. James was saying that he didn't want to write lyrics for DT12 because he had just done his solo album. I still kind of think that was a diplomatic answer. I do remember him saying that he would definitely write some for the next one and then...yeah, Astonishing. Maybe MM will ask for a five year break.
And the band will agree because they don't want to lose him... :lol
Obviously all of this is just fun and not serious, but if that happens then I think MP should be given free reign to say anything he wants on social media, no holds barred.
He already does that though lol.
Free reign. No one would be allowed to criticize him for it.
From now until the day he dies, no question.
Yeah, if that were to happen, there wouldn't be any complaints from me when MP starts talking shit. In fact, if DT did something like that, it might even put a damper on my enjoyment of them. That's cold.
There's actually a huge difference. When MP wanted a break, the band were in their prime in a lot of ways. That would have killed a tremendous amount of momentum. If they were to take a break now or in a couple of years, they would simply be slowing down because they are nearing the actual age most people retire. Their job is also a tad more physically demanding than someone that works at an office.
Agreed that it would be a very different situation. Keep in mind that things were slowing down a bit for the band during this time, and that is not what most of them wanted. Black Clouds was the first album where they did not have a proper U.S. headlining tour. And there were hints that, for whatever reason, bookings in the U.S. were getting difficult. They felt as though they were losing momentum, and a break at that time would have only compounded the problem. Everyone but Mike was of the mind that they needed to get back into the studio and get their album out on time so they could get back on the road and start building momentum again. Portnoy apparently did not understand this or did not think it was as big of a deal as it was to some of the others.
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That's worse than firing someone through Email the day they're supposed to go record vocals for the new album, and right before Christmas.
How about having the manager sack him while boarding the plane after a tour.
Hey, Terry.
Sorry, mate. This plane's for bandmembers only.
Right. That's why I
*slam*
Oh, bloody hell.
I got Zook's IE reference, but I got no clue what yours is.
Possibly apocryphal story of Glenn Cornick's firing from Tull. Ian Anderson deserves many accolades, but being a nice bloke ain't one of them.
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If I remember correctly, there was an interview with JLB during the DT12 era and he talked about being frustrated that he wasn't more involved with lyrics and writing a song and apparently had one that he was interested in taking, but JP ended up writing the lyric. He said that he wouldn't let that happen again and then...well... The Astonishing..
I don't quite remember it that way. James was saying that he didn't want to write lyrics for DT12 because he had just done his solo album. I still kind of think that was a diplomatic answer. I do remember him saying that he would definitely write some for the next one and then...yeah, Astonishing. Maybe MM will ask for a five year break.
And the band will agree because they don't want to lose him... :lol
Obviously all of this is just fun and not serious, but if that happens then I think MP should be given free reign to say anything he wants on social media, no holds barred.
He already does that though lol.
Free reign. No one would be allowed to criticize him for it.
From now until the day he dies, no question.
Yeah, if that were to happen, there wouldn't be any complaints from me when MP starts talking shit. In fact, if DT did something like that, it might even put a damper on my enjoyment of them. That's cold.
There's actually a huge difference. When MP wanted a break, the band were in their prime in a lot of ways. That would have killed a tremendous amount of momentum. If they were to take a break now or in a couple of years, they would simply be slowing down because they are nearing the actual age most people retire. Their job is also a tad more physically demanding than someone that works at an office.
Agreed that it would be a very different situation. Keep in mind that things were slowing down a bit for the band during this time, and that is not what most of them wanted. Black Clouds was the first album where they did not have a proper U.S. headlining tour. And there were hints that, for whatever reason, bookings in the U.S. were getting difficult. They felt as though they were losing momentum, and a break at that time would have only compounded the problem. Everyone but Mike was of the mind that they needed to get back into the studio and get their album out on time so they could get back on the road and start building momentum again. Portnoy apparently did not understand this or did not think it was as big of a deal as it was to some of the others.
Perhaps he just thought there would be better, renewed interest if they took off for a while and came back with stronger material. I think that makes more sense than "let's keep doing the same thing, but faster!" I sort of see how Madman says they were in their prime, but I also see many ways they'd tanked out. Returning from a prolonged absence would generate buzz (and hopefully better music). Of course heading off with a new drummer accomplishes the same thing (well, the first part, anyway).
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If JR decides to hang it up (due to age), does anybody think Derek would return to DT if he was offered the chance? Personally, I would love to have him back. I didn't think he was given a fair shot to begin with. Anyways, thoughts on this?
Since as soon as 2004 (that was jsut 5 years after) he joined them for an encore, I don't think that so many years down the line, he still has some grudges about being booted. If the musical side of it interests him, I think he would be up for giving it a second go.
Also having Derek back would soften the blow of such another huge line-up change... "Ok, Jordan's gone, but someone of the family comes back".
And Derek is in MP's band now, so I don't find the DT reconnect likely (unless JR AND MM both leave).
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I don't think we'll see ANY lineup changes until a reunion tour after the band disbands. The potential future I see for the band is business as usual (write, record, tour) until 2024, when they do a 25th Anniversary Tour of SFAM, then a "Farewell 40th Anniversary Tour" in 2025-2026. The band will then take off some time, and if they feel up to it, they will reconvene for a reunion tour somewhere down the line with Portnoy, and possibly Sherinian if Rudess doesn't feel up to it.
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I don't think we'll see ANY lineup changes until a reunion tour after the band disbands. The potential future I see for the band is business as usual (write, record, tour) until 2024, when they do a 25th Anniversary Tour of SFAM, then a "Farewell 40th Anniversary Tour" in 2025-2026. The band will then take off some time, and if they feel up to it, they will reconvene for a reunion tour somewhere down the line with Portnoy, and possibly Sherinian if Rudess doesn't feel up to it.
That scenario is boring like hell, but real though... I wish, really, however it sounds, to see MP again joining DT. I know, Mike Mangini - I appreciate Him on every level, He's a great artist and drummer and He's doing a great job with The Band. But that DT which I remember when I was younger, was with Portnoy, I will always associate DT with Mike Portnoy and I would love to see Them together again.
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What about the Shattered Fortress opening for Dream Theater? As cheesey as that sounds, that would be pretty awesome.
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What about the Shattered Fortress opening for Dream Theater? As cheesey as that sounds, that would be pretty awesome.
Mike's pride would never allow that to happen. I don't think.
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Im sure DT wouldn't allow that either, but a fan can dream
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What about the Shattered Fortress opening for Dream Theater? As cheesey as that sounds, that would be pretty awesome.
Mike's pride would never allow that to happen. I don't think.
I don't think MP's pride factors into it. I just think it would be a circus that nobody wants to be a part of. Hell, I'm a big MP fan, and I wouldn't even want to be apart of it.
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What about the Shattered Fortress opening for Dream Theater? As cheesey as that sounds, that would be pretty awesome.
Please see Black Sabbath opening for Ozzy is 1992. Bad idea.
Agreed that it would be a very different situation. Keep in mind that things were slowing down a bit for the band during this time, and that is not what most of them wanted. Black Clouds was the first album where they did not have a proper U.S. headlining tour. And there were hints that, for whatever reason, bookings in the U.S. were getting difficult. They felt as though they were losing momentum, and a break at that time would have only compounded the problem. Everyone but Mike was of the mind that they needed to get back into the studio and get their album out on time so they could get back on the road and start building momentum again. Portnoy apparently did not understand this or did not think it was as big of a deal as it was to some of the others.
Were things really slowing down for them though? BC&SL got number 6 on the charts and early reviews were good (although I think people including myself got a little more tired of that album faster). I saw them in the same markets and it seemed the crowds were just as good as before.
I guess the Prognation thing was a bit of a bummer for a lot of people.
Anyway, can you expand on this notion that bookings were getting difficult? I hadn't heard this but you are more in the know about those things than most of us.
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What about the Shattered Fortress opening for Dream Theater? As cheesey as that sounds, that would be pretty awesome.
Mike's pride would never allow that to happen. I don't think.
I don't think MP's pride factors into it. I just think it would be a circus that nobody wants to be a part of. Hell, I'm a big MP fan, and I wouldn't even want to be apart of it.
This, by all
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Agreed that it would be a very different situation. Keep in mind that things were slowing down a bit for the band during this time, and that is not what most of them wanted. Black Clouds was the first album where they did not have a proper U.S. headlining tour. And there were hints that, for whatever reason, bookings in the U.S. were getting difficult. They felt as though they were losing momentum, and a break at that time would have only compounded the problem. Everyone but Mike was of the mind that they needed to get back into the studio and get their album out on time so they could get back on the road and start building momentum again. Portnoy apparently did not understand this or did not think it was as big of a deal as it was to some of the others.
Were things really slowing down for them though? BC&SL got number 6 on the charts and early reviews were good (although I think people including myself got a little more tired of that album faster). I saw them in the same markets and it seemed the crowds were just as good as before.
I guess the Prognation thing was a bit of a bummer for a lot of people.
Anyway, can you expand on this notion that bookings were getting difficult? I hadn't heard this but you are more in the know about those things than most of us.
The album sales themselves were fine. At least, relatively. Although it was their highest debut charting, remember that overall album sales numbers had been declining relatively sharply during that period. And I don't just mean for DT--for ALL bands. But I don't know whether that may or may not have played into things.
What I do know is that on the touring side, they felt like things were beginning to trend in a direction that was not good for the band as a whole. Remember--they didn't tour as a "headliner" for a true BCSL/25th anniversary tour in the U.S. They only did Prog Nation and opened for Maiden. I can't remember now whether Portnoy had said that they were having difficulty getting a separate headlining tour booked with some promoters or whether it was JP that said to me that some promoters wouldn't book a headlining tour because they felt that the market was saturated after the other two legs. It may have been both. Again, I don't remember specifically.
What I DO specifically recall is that when I talked to JP on the ADTOE tour, I said something along the lines of: "I know some fans were disappointed that there wasn't a proper headlining tour for Black Clouds. With only doing Prog Nation and a limited run of opening dates for Maiden, it feels like the touring dropped off significantly in the U.S. for that album. With a band like Dream Theater that is big enough to make a good living, but not huge, it seems to me like a hiatus would be a huge momentum killer, and that you guys needed to ramp things back up to normal levels before thinking about a break. Am I off base here?" John agreed with my take pretty enthusiastically, although we didn't get into too much more detail than that. But it was enough to confirm my suspicions about why the idea of a break was not well received by them.
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That doesn't make any sense at all to me. They do the same album/tour cycle for years and years. Bookingd drop off, ostensibly because they've over-saturated after the last two cycles. So the solution is to haul ass and start another cycle to avoid losing momentum? The way you describe it makes it sound like MP was dead on.
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That doesn't make any sense at all to me. They do the same album/tour cycle for years and years. Bookingd drop off, ostensibly because they've over-saturated after the last two cycles. So the solution is to haul ass and start another cycle to avoid losing momentum? The way you describe it makes it sound like MP was dead on.
I don't see it that way. The music industry is weird. With some bands, you gotta strike while the iron is hot. If you take too much time off, the market loses interest. We're not talking Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin, but smaller bands need to consistently put out albums and tour otherwise people don't care anymore.
Also want to note that it's interesting Prognation seemed to be more of a reaction to the lack of interest from promoters rather than just something Mike wanted to do. I mean, with that brief conversation Bosk had we could be reading too much into it but it is something interesting to ponder.
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That prognation tour had a really poor turnout in NJ. Like I felt really bad for DT to be playing to such a small crowd. But DT did top that by playing to even less for TA second round in NJ. I've got to think the promoters are a reason why "SOON" has become a thing with DT and NA touring.
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That doesn't make any sense at all to me. They do the same album/tour cycle for years and years. Bookingd drop off, ostensibly because they've over-saturated after the last two cycles. So the solution is to haul ass and start another cycle to avoid losing momentum? The way you describe it makes it sound like MP was dead on.
I don't see it that way. The music industry is weird. With some bands, you gotta strike while the iron is hot. If you take too much time off, the market loses interest. We're not talking Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin, but smaller bands need to consistently put out albums and tour otherwise people don't care anymore.
Also want to note that it's interesting Prognation seemed to be more of a reaction to the lack of interest from promoters rather than just something Mike wanted to do. I mean, with that brief conversation Bosk had we could be reading too much into it but it is something interesting to ponder.
The market is simply DT's core fans. They're not roping in new fans based on radio airplay. Friends are exposing others to their music, and that'll happen the same in five years as it does now. If anything, their core fans were getting tired of them. I know the group I associate with certainly have. Let that cycle continue while they're on hiatus, and then capitalize on a slightly expanded fanbase and a renewed interest from the people who've always supported them.
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That prognation tour had a really poor turnout in NJ. Like I felt really bad for DT to be playing to such a small crowd. But DT did top that by playing to even less for TA second round in NJ. I've got to think the promoters are a reason why "SOON" has become a thing with DT and NA touring.
I'm sure that's the case. However, I also put a great deal of that blame on the band itself.
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That prognation tour had a really poor turnout in NJ.
Exactly. Again, I think (but don't remember the conversation clearly enough) that some of the problem was that they had already been out twice on that album cycle, and once was a fairly poorly attended festival-type tour (Prog Nation). A new album takes care of the "oversaturation problem," at least in part. Booking was tailing off a bit on that tour cycle, and they were making less as a multi-band festival headliner and then an opener than if they did two legs as a headliner. As Madman posted, they wanted to "strike before the iron was hot"--or at least, before it cooled down any further.
Barto, the problem wasn't that things were declining while they were doing the same old thing. Things declined a bit because the touring--which is their bread and butter, financially speaking--was done differently on the Black Clouds tour cycle than in the past. They got things back on track by doing more of a "normal" (for them) tour cycle with the next album. Of course, the buzz of Mangini in the band may have helped. But the proof is in the numbers for the next two tours. Things more or less normalized for them.
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I also think releasing a well received album, ADTOE, helped with that tour as well.
Also, weren't they not even going to do another tour for BCSL after ProgNation, but changed plans when Iron Maiden asked them to open?
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Yes, that is my understanding. I think Portnoy said something along the lines of, "we were pretty much done doing opening tours. But there are a small handful of bands we would go out with, and when Maiden comes knocking, you don't turn that down." Or something like that.
So, yeah, that changes things up for them. And even though the numbers for that touring cycle may not have been up to par, the Maiden tour did provide exposure, which is all the more reason for them to want to get out again on schedule and not take a long break. That exposure would have been wasted if they disappeared for 5 years.
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Yes, that is my understanding. I think Portnoy said something along the lines of, "we were pretty much done doing opening tours. But there are a small handful of bands we would go out with, and when Maiden comes knocking, you don't turn that down." Or something like that.
If I remember correctly, they were willing and wanting to open for Rush, Yes and Maiden. To quote Meat Loaf, two out of three ain't bad.
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Yes, that is my understanding. I think Portnoy said something along the lines of, "we were pretty much done doing opening tours. But there are a small handful of bands we would go out with, and when Maiden comes knocking, you don't turn that down." Or something like that.
If I remember correctly, they were willing and wanting to open for Rush, Yes and Maiden. To quote Meat Loaf, two out of three ain't bad.
Fun fact: Meatloaf has never toured with an opening act/band/performer (not counting benefit concerts and festivals).
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I do think DT started with the wrong foot with their 1st leg of the Black Clouds Tour in North America. In my opinion, they should have headlined first, then Maiden but not ProgNation. Also, I don't think ProgNation (for BCLS) was well attended and I go as far to say that ProgNation (at least on the BCLS cycle) was an MP aberration. The majority of DT fans are there to see DT, not 3 more bands.
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I do think DT started with the wrong foot with their 1st leg of the Black Clouds Tour in North America. In my opinion, they should have headlined first, then Maiden but not ProgNation. Also, I don't think ProgNation (for BCLS) was well attended and I go as far to say that ProgNation (at least on the BCLS cycle) was an MP aberration. The majority of DT fans are there to see DT, not 3 more bands.
I agree. I think doing one NA ProgNation for the SC cycle was enough.
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I had no idea Prognation did so bad (or maybe subpar is a better term). I actually did something I never do for that show and skipped the opening bands. I made it for a bit of Zappa Plays Zappa and people seemed pretty bored. Actually during the opening bands I went walking along the riverwalk outside the venue and who was there but Mike Portnoy talking on the phone. There were a few fans waiting a respectful distance for autographs. We ended up getting a drink just a block over. I had already met Portnoy by that point (two years earlier) so just flashed the horns as I walked by and he reciprocated. A few minutes later I saw a blonde walk out of the backstage doors with two kids. I'm pretty sure it was John Petrucci's wife and children. It was kind of surreal to be sitting at this outside bar sipping root beer and see one of the guitarists of Meanstreak and the future drummer of Avenged Sevenfold.
I guess the lesson is if you want to see Mike Portnoy and John Petrucci's wife, skip Zappa Plays Zappa.
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So, yeah, that changes things up for them. And even though the numbers for that touring cycle may not have been up to par, the Maiden tour did provide exposure, which is all the more reason for them to want to get out again on schedule and not take a long break. That exposure would have been wasted if they disappeared for 5 years.
I agree with this.
I do think DT started with the wrong foot with their 1st leg of the Black Clouds Tour in North America. In my opinion, they should have headlined first, then Maiden but not ProgNation. Also, I don't think ProgNation (for BCLS) was well attended and I go as far to say that ProgNation (at least on the BCLS cycle) was an MP aberration. The majority of DT fans are there to see DT, not 3 more bands.
I agree. I think doing one NA ProgNation for the SC cycle was enough.
I don't think ProgNation was such a terrible idea, but the bands on the second PN tour were just not as popular as the bands were from the first ProgNation and given the unpopularity of the genre of music, it's hard to deliver when people aren't going for anyone besides the headliner at a festival.
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Yes, that is my understanding. I think Portnoy said something along the lines of, "we were pretty much done doing opening tours. But there are a small handful of bands we would go out with, and when Maiden comes knocking, you don't turn that down." Or something like that.
If I remember correctly, they were willing and wanting to open for Rush, Yes and Maiden. To quote Meat Loaf, two out of three ain't bad.
I think Metallica was on that short list as well.
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I do think DT started with the wrong foot with their 1st leg of the Black Clouds Tour in North America. In my opinion, they should have headlined first, then Maiden but not ProgNation. Also, I don't think ProgNation (for BCLS) was well attended and I go as far to say that ProgNation (at least on the BCLS cycle) was an MP aberration. The majority of DT fans are there to see DT, not 3 more bands.
I agree. I think doing one NA ProgNation for the SC cycle was enough.
If IRCC, SC did have a headline leg 1st and then ProgNation was the 2nd leg of the tour.
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Maiden certainly got them a lot of exposer, but I think the opportunity to open for Rush is what they really wanted the most. Too bad that didn't happen.
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So, yeah, that changes things up for them. And even though the numbers for that touring cycle may not have been up to par, the Maiden tour did provide exposure, which is all the more reason for them to want to get out again on schedule and not take a long break. That exposure would have been wasted if they disappeared for 5 years.
I agree with this.
I do think DT started with the wrong foot with their 1st leg of the Black Clouds Tour in North America. In my opinion, they should have headlined first, then Maiden but not ProgNation. Also, I don't think ProgNation (for BCLS) was well attended and I go as far to say that ProgNation (at least on the BCLS cycle) was an MP aberration. The majority of DT fans are there to see DT, not 3 more bands.
I agree. I think doing one NA ProgNation for the SC cycle was enough.
I don't think ProgNation was such a terrible idea, but the bands on the second PN tour were just not as popular as the bands were from the first ProgNation and given the unpopularity of the genre of music, it's hard to deliver when people aren't going for anyone besides the headliner at a festival.
That may have been another contributing factor, the band selection. I don't think DT was rotating setlists (IIRC), the bands were unappealing, etc. But the point I was trying to make, is that they didn't start a headlining tour after the release of BCLS in NA. When you chart an album at #6, you have leverage with promoters to book you. And I think that was overlooked by the band (MP, JP, management or a combination of both).
You "headline" with ProgNation; it doesn't do well, then you open for Maiden, you kind of kill the momentum you had with a top charting album and promoters will definitely second guess if they can get their return for their money to book DT after a year of the album being released. Then MP's departure happened and sealed the deal for the BCLS touring cycle.
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You have to remember that the circumstances leading up to MP's departure may have been a factor regarding the BC&SL tour. I don't think anything was overlooked.
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So, yeah, that changes things up for them. And even though the numbers for that touring cycle may not have been up to par, the Maiden tour did provide exposure, which is all the more reason for them to want to get out again on schedule and not take a long break. That exposure would have been wasted if they disappeared for 5 years.
I agree with this.
I do think DT started with the wrong foot with their 1st leg of the Black Clouds Tour in North America. In my opinion, they should have headlined first, then Maiden but not ProgNation. Also, I don't think ProgNation (for BCLS) was well attended and I go as far to say that ProgNation (at least on the BCLS cycle) was an MP aberration. The majority of DT fans are there to see DT, not 3 more bands.
I agree. I think doing one NA ProgNation for the SC cycle was enough.
I don't think ProgNation was such a terrible idea, but the bands on the second PN tour were just not as popular as the bands were from the first ProgNation and given the unpopularity of the genre of music, it's hard to deliver when people aren't going for anyone besides the headliner at a festival.
That may have been another contributing factor, the band selection. I don't think DT was rotating setlists (IIRC), the bands were unappealing, etc. But the point I was trying to make, is that they didn't start a headlining tour after the release of BCLS in NA. When you chart an album at #6, you have leverage with promoters to book you. And I think that was overlooked by the band (MP, JP, management or a combination of both).
You "headline" with ProgNation; it doesn't do well, then you open for Maiden, you kind of kill the momentum you had with a top charting album and promoters will definitely second guess if they can get their return for their money to book DT after a year of the album being released. Then MP's departure happened and sealed the deal for the BCLS touring cycle.
DT did do rotating setlists for both PN tours. Saw them back to back in NYC for PN1 and they didn't repeat any songs. I saw them in NJ and NYC for PN2 and the only songs repeated were the BCSL songs. Also got to see the ProgNation Drum Solo (Percussive Nation), Repentance (with Akerfelt on vocals), and Metropolis with Dweezil Zappa. They (DT) certainly delivered the goods on those four shows IMO.
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Yes, that is my understanding. I think Portnoy said something along the lines of, "we were pretty much done doing opening tours. But there are a small handful of bands we would go out with, and when Maiden comes knocking, you don't turn that down." Or something like that.
So, yeah, that changes things up for them. And even though the numbers for that touring cycle may not have been up to par, the Maiden tour did provide exposure, which is all the more reason for them to want to get out again on schedule and not take a long break. That exposure would have been wasted if they disappeared for 5 years.
Now that's a pretty good argument. As for the rest of it, I really don't think immediately cranking out Sytematic Clouds of Drama and touring with it would have regained the momentum. I think it would have reinforced the stagnation. Perhaps I missed something, but I thought I read earlier that the promoters weren't exactly banging down their doors for a headlining tour, which was part of the reason for PN and the opening slot.
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I don't think ProgNation was such a terrible idea, but the bands on the second PN tour were just not as popular as the bands were from the first ProgNation and given the unpopularity of the genre of music, it's hard to deliver when people aren't going for anyone besides the headliner at a festival.
I don't think it was a terrible idea either, I agree about the popularity of the bands, but honestly I just think it was cool on the SC tour because it was different. I think the fan base was ready for a full-on DT NA tour on the next cycle, not ProgNation again.
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Yes, that is my understanding. I think Portnoy said something along the lines of, "we were pretty much done doing opening tours. But there are a small handful of bands we would go out with, and when Maiden comes knocking, you don't turn that down." Or something like that.
So, yeah, that changes things up for them. And even though the numbers for that touring cycle may not have been up to par, the Maiden tour did provide exposure, which is all the more reason for them to want to get out again on schedule and not take a long break. That exposure would have been wasted if they disappeared for 5 years.
Now that's a pretty good argument. As for the rest of it, I really don't think immediately cranking out Sytematic Clouds of Drama and touring with it would have regained the momentum. I think it would have reinforced the stagnation. Perhaps I missed something, but I thought I read earlier that the promoters weren't exactly banging down their doors for a headlining tour, which was part of the reason for PN and the opening slot.
No--as I understand it, they did PN because they wanted to do PN. But after PN, they planned to headline, but the Maiden tour happened. And then they were either getting pushback with bookings for a hypothetical headlining leg or perceived that they would.
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DT did do rotating setlists for both PN tours. Saw them back to back in NYC for PN1 and they didn't repeat any songs. I saw them in NJ and NYC for PN2 and the only songs repeated were the BCSL songs. Also got to see the ProgNation Drum Solo (Percussive Nation), Repentance (with Akerfelt on vocals), and Metropolis with Dweezil Zappa. They (DT) certainly delivered the goods on those four shows IMO.
I don't remember exactly, but I didn't think they were switching it up that much, just rotating a couple songs in slots. Maybe they switched it up more for back to back.
I was lucky enough to see one of the headlining one-off shows they did when they were on tour with IM for BC&SL. Small little place in Columbus, OH.
Fantastic set -
A Nightmare to Remember
Constant Motion
Hollow Years (LaB style)
The Mirror
Lie
A Rite of Passage
Home
Panic Attack
As I Am
Pull Me Under
Metropolis Pt. 1: The Miracle and the Sleeper
Encore:
The Count of Tuscany
Heavy, heavy set.
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I think they just were playing long songs in a shorter set so there wasn't much wiggle room. But in NJ we got:
A Nightmare to Remember
A Rite of Passage
Beyond This Life
Erotomania
Voices
Solitary Shell (extended improv)
In the Name of God
Encore:
The Count of Tuscany
then they played a show in New York the next day (I did not attend) then in New York City the day after:
A Nightmare to Remember
A Rite of Passage
Hollow Years (Extended)
Keyboard Solo
Prophets of War
The Dance of Eternity
One Last Time
The Count of Tuscany
Encore:
Metropolis Pt. 1: The Miracle and the Sleeper
(with Dweezil Zappa) (Including 3-way battle between John Petrucci, Jordan Rudess, and Dweezil Zappa)
and even that headline set got a few different songs than the two shows I attended
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^Makes sense.
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Black Clouds was the first album where they did not have a proper U.S. headlining tour. And there were hints that, for whatever reason, bookings in the U.S. were getting difficult.
When I interviewed MP before the LA show, he commented that the PN09 tour was the first tour where they were breaking even, which he attributed more to the economy and the fact that they had 3 opening acts to pay for, rather than anything else. Had it been because of booking problems with the promoters, I'm pretty sure he would've said as much.
Perhaps he just thought there would be better, renewed interest if they took off for a while and came back with stronger material. I think that makes more sense than "let's keep doing the same thing, but faster!" I sort of see how Madman says they were in their prime, but I also see many ways they'd tanked out. Returning from a prolonged absence would generate buzz (and hopefully better music).
I think that was very much his thinking. While he'd still defend SC and BCaSL as being as good as everything else they did, not only was he feeling burn out, but he was also seeing the rest of the guys at minimum falling into a rut with the write/record/tour cycle, which is why he wanted to shake things up. And while some may argue that financially it would've been impossible to take a long break (and I agree, an indefinite hiatus, or even one of 5 years is too much), taking a year off to do other things away from the band was both feasible and possible. JR could've continued work on his apps and any solo projects he wanted to, JP on his second solo album (which we are still waiting for), JL on his next solo album and JM on the next Jelly Jam album, as well as touring behind such albums/bands/projects. Coming back after that would've been refreshing and given each of them new experiences to draw from when working on the next DT album.
Of course heading off with a new drummer accomplishes the same thing (well, the first part, anyway).
True - something that MP noted himself.
And Derek is in MP's band now, so I don't find the DT reconnect likely (unless JR AND MM both leave).
As crazy and unrealistic as it is, I can almost imagine a scenario where DT and this new MP/DS band would unite into a single DT lineup, ala Yes's Union lineup. Like I said, it's crazy and unrealistic, but it's something I can't help but think of - not sure why. :P
I can't remember now whether Portnoy had said that they were having difficulty getting a separate headlining tour booked with some promoters or whether it was JP that said to me that some promoters wouldn't book a headlining tour because they felt that the market was saturated after the other two legs. It may have been both. Again, I don't remember specifically.
What "other two legs" are you speaking of? At that point, they only did the PN09 tour in North America. Or are you referring to both the PN09 leg and the leg opening for Maiden? As far as I know, while there may have been some initial plans to do a headlining run in the summer of 2010, I think early on that was squashed, but not because of problems with the promoters, but rather to shake things up more (and break free of the touring cycle they were in: warmup/festival tour Europe in the early summer, tour North America, proper album tour of Europe, tour Asia, tour South America and do a final run through North America again). The Maiden thing came up when they weren't expecting it, and the took the opportunity since they knew it would be good exposure and this sort of offer didn't happen all the time. Had Maiden not offered the opening slot, the shows in South America would've marked the end of the tour.
What I DO specifically recall is that when I talked to JP on the ADTOE tour, I said something along the lines of: "I know some fans were disappointed that there wasn't a proper headlining tour for Black Clouds. With only doing Prog Nation and a limited run of opening dates for Maiden, it feels like the touring dropped off significantly in the U.S. for that album. With a band like Dream Theater that is big enough to make a good living, but not huge, it seems to me like a hiatus would be a huge momentum killer, and that you guys needed to ramp things back up to normal levels before thinking about a break. Am I off base here?" John agreed with my take pretty enthusiastically, although we didn't get into too much more detail than that. But it was enough to confirm my suspicions about why the idea of a break was not well received by them.
I think JP said as much when doing interviews shortly after MP split, commenting (I'm paraphrasing) on how they had just played MSG (opening for Maiden), and that on the next tour, how it might be possible for them to play that venue themselves.
Also want to note that it's interesting Prognation seemed to be more of a reaction to the lack of interest from promoters rather than just something Mike wanted to do.
Not at all. MP wanted to mix things up even more - I think it's clear that he doesn't like to fall into a rut with anything. And even with touring, this is true. So that's why for a time they did Evening With shows, then had opening bands again, and finally ProgNation. Plus he wanted to be able to "give back" to the music community by giving some of these deserving bands more exposure than they would probably get otherwise.
Barto, the problem wasn't that things were declining while they were doing the same old thing. Things declined a bit because the touring--which is their bread and butter, financially speaking--was done differently on the Black Clouds tour cycle than in the past. They got things back on track by doing more of a "normal" (for them) tour cycle with the next album. Of course, the buzz of Mangini in the band may have helped. But the proof is in the numbers for the next two tours. Things more or less normalized for them.
To a degree things might have normalized for them, but then again, there are reports even in Europe of audiences shrinking, let alone what we saw especially with the second North American leg of the Astonishing tour. So just getting back into the normal swing of things isn't necessarily the answer either.
The majority of DT fans are there to see DT, not 3 more bands.
I think that was true without a doubt. Maybe a decent chunk were there for ZPZ, but not for the other bands. But again, the reasoning behind PN was to give other smaller bands more exposure.
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Thanks for filling in some of the gaps, Scotty. I knew the Maiden thing was unexpected. But are you sure no proper headlining tour in the U.S. was going to be scheduled after PN? I don't know otherwise, but I assumed the plan prior to Maiden offering the opening slot was for the PN dates with the shorter set, and then a proper headlining run with a longer set.
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I don't remember where I read or heard it from (could've been an interview or a personal conversation), but I remember MP had commented that they weren't planning to do another run through the US until the Maiden offer happened. I don't have time right now, but I'll see if I can dig up that quote.
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All this talk about MP back in DT; do you really think JP could trust him to not be stirring shit up on social media like he always has?
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DT did do rotating setlists for both PN tours. Saw them back to back in NYC for PN1 and they didn't repeat any songs. I saw them in NJ and NYC for PN2 and the only songs repeated were the BCSL songs. Also got to see the ProgNation Drum Solo (Percussive Nation), Repentance (with Akerfelt on vocals), and Metropolis with Dweezil Zappa. They (DT) certainly delivered the goods on those four shows IMO.
I don't remember exactly, but I didn't think they were switching it up that much, just rotating a couple songs in slots. Maybe they switched it up more for back to back.
I was lucky enough to see one of the headlining one-off shows they did when they were on tour with IM for BC&SL. Small little place in Columbus, OH.
Fantastic set -
A Nightmare to Remember
Constant Motion
Hollow Years (LaB style)
The Mirror
Lie
A Rite of Passage
Home
Panic Attack
As I Am
Pull Me Under
Metropolis Pt. 1: The Miracle and the Sleeper
Encore:
The Count of Tuscany
Heavy, heavy set.
The Newport. I almost went to that show. Some guys that I used to play music with went, and said that it was a good one. I seen them opening for Maiden in Cleveland around that time, and it wasn't good.
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All this talk about MP back in DT; do you really think JP could trust him to not be stirring shit up on social media like he always has?
I think the bigger issue would be Petrucci having to surrender control. It's clear that he likes being the leader now, instead of the co-leader, and having to give up that much control would be tough to do. And I don't think Portnoy would agree to returning and taking a lesser role in regards to control and power. Petrucci would not let him return and say, "We are not playing any songs from when I was gone," and I don't think Portnoy would agree to playing any songs from the Mangini era.
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What about the Shattered Fortress opening for Dream Theater? As cheesey as that sounds, that would be pretty awesome.
Cram, when did you turn into a troll?? :lol
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DT 2019:
Mike Portnoy
John Petrucci
Russel Allen
Derek Sherinian
John Myung
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DT 2019:
Mike Portnoy
John Petrucci
Russel Allen
Derek Sherinian
John Myung
Lol, that's a hell of a dream team :P
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What about the Shattered Fortress opening for Dream Theater? As cheesey as that sounds, that would be pretty awesome.
Cram, when did you turn into a troll?? :lol
:biggrin: I was being kind of serious, I mean, everyone is right, it would never work. But I'd enjoy it if it happened.
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DT did do rotating setlists for both PN tours. Saw them back to back in NYC for PN1 and they didn't repeat any songs. I saw them in NJ and NYC for PN2 and the only songs repeated were the BCSL songs. Also got to see the ProgNation Drum Solo (Percussive Nation), Repentance (with Akerfelt on vocals), and Metropolis with Dweezil Zappa. They (DT) certainly delivered the goods on those four shows IMO.
I don't remember exactly, but I didn't think they were switching it up that much, just rotating a couple songs in slots. Maybe they switched it up more for back to back.
I was lucky enough to see one of the headlining one-off shows they did when they were on tour with IM for BC&SL. Small little place in Columbus, OH.
Fantastic set -
A Nightmare to Remember
Constant Motion
Hollow Years (LaB style)
The Mirror
Lie
A Rite of Passage
Home
Panic Attack
As I Am
Pull Me Under
Metropolis Pt. 1: The Miracle and the Sleeper
Encore:
The Count of Tuscany
Heavy, heavy set.
The Newport. I almost went to that show. Some guys that I used to play music with went, and said that it was a good one. I seen them opening for Maiden in Cleveland around that time, and it wasn't good.
The Newport indeed. Great show. I also saw them in Pittsburgh opening for Maiden on that tour, the one-off at the Newport was such a standout show.
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Yeah, other than Hollow Years, that's a pretty fantastic set. The only other song in there I'm not crazy about is A Rite of Passage. But I bet it's actually a pretty good live tune. And as with pretty much any of their songs, I wouldn't mind seeing it once.
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DT did do rotating setlists for both PN tours. Saw them back to back in NYC for PN1 and they didn't repeat any songs. I saw them in NJ and NYC for PN2 and the only songs repeated were the BCSL songs. Also got to see the ProgNation Drum Solo (Percussive Nation), Repentance (with Akerfelt on vocals), and Metropolis with Dweezil Zappa. They (DT) certainly delivered the goods on those four shows IMO.
I don't remember exactly, but I didn't think they were switching it up that much, just rotating a couple songs in slots. Maybe they switched it up more for back to back.
I was lucky enough to see one of the headlining one-off shows they did when they were on tour with IM for BC&SL. Small little place in Columbus, OH.
Fantastic set -
A Nightmare to Remember
Constant Motion
Hollow Years (LaB style)
The Mirror
Lie
A Rite of Passage
Home
Panic Attack
As I Am
Pull Me Under
Metropolis Pt. 1: The Miracle and the Sleeper
Encore:
The Count of Tuscany
Heavy, heavy set.
The Newport. I almost went to that show. Some guys that I used to play music with went, and said that it was a good one. I seen them opening for Maiden in Cleveland around that time, and it wasn't good.
The Newport indeed. Great show. I also saw them in Pittsburgh opening for Maiden on that tour, the one-off at the Newport was such a standout show.
I was at that Columbus show too and I remember a great crowd, awesome setlist, they were dead on that night.....and if memory serves, that's the show where Portnoy put on a granny dress and wig and came out during Beatellica and played for a bit.
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I was at that Columbus show too and I remember a great crowd, awesome setlist, they were dead on that night.....and if memory serves, that's the show where Portnoy put on a granny dress and wig and came out during Beatellica and played for a bit.
Yes it definitely was.
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DT 2019:
Mike Portnoy
John Petrucci
Russel Allen
Diego Tejeida
John Myung
Fixed it :biggrin:
Seriously, though, I don't think Derek will ever return to DT. I mean, he's said in the past that he has no interest in playing any of the JR era material, which is the vast majority of DT's catalog (9 albums, to be precise).
On the other hand, Diego is good friends with both MP and JR, so I could see Jordan asking Diego to replace him when he retires. He's shown, with these MP TSF shows, that he's more than capable to nail the material, and, if you listen to his lead playing in Haken, specially the first 2 albums, you'll notice that he sounds like a great blend of Derek and Jordan. Could we ever ask for more? :metal
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DT 2019:
Mike Portnoy
John Petrucci
Russel Allen
Diego Tejeida
John Myung
Fixed it :biggrin:
Seriously, though, I don't think Derek will ever return to DT. I mean, he's said in the past that he has no interest in playing any of the JR era material, which is the vast majority of DT's catalog (9 albums, to be precise).
On the other hand, Diego is good friends with both MP and JR, so I could see Jordan asking Diego to replace him when he retires. He's shown, with these MP TSF shows, that he's more than capable to nail the material, and, if you listen to his lead playing in Haken, specially the first 2 albums, you'll notice that he sounds like a great blend of Derek and Jordan. Could we ever ask for more? :metal
That would work for me too!!! :metal
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James will gracefully step aside because he realizes Urban Breed deserves the gig more.
Urban brings back what the band has so clearly been lacking since Mike left: A middle-aged man wearing sports jerseys on stage.
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Most likely no lineup changes, but they are about due for a genre change. :p
I've been waiting all these years for their funk album :-)
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Most likely no lineup changes, but they are about due for a genre change. :p
I've been waiting all these years for their funk album :-)
+1
It would make my life to hear JM bust into a slap bass solo.
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At this point, nothing would surprise me.
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Mangini wouldn't surprise me. He seems to view his role as more of a gig than a career. That could change, however, if they start to engage him more in the studio.
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Mangini has already had one hell of a career. Being the drummer for DT could be considered a career in itself. I really hope he stays with the band. I don't think any of the other members would be anxious to see him go.
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Mangini has already had one hell of a career. Being the drummer for DT could be considered a career in itself. I really hope he stays with the band. I don't think any of the other members would be anxious to see him go.
I agree, and he seems to really enjoy to be in the band, to meet new people and travel to new places with DT. Also, he's the drummer for the JP solo band too, and, according to a facebook post by Dave LaRue, they might be doing some touring soon.
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I think Jordan and MM will leave amicably and Kevin Moore and MP will return and make Images and Words 2 : More Images and a Few More Words
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I think Jordan and MM will leave amicably and Kevin Moore and MP will return and make Images and Words 2 : More Images and a Few More Words
I assume that was supposed to make me chuckle . . . The chances that KM would do anything remotely like that are less than zero percent
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I've wondered for quite a while why John Myung doesn't have a very serious case of tendinitis or Carpal Tunnel. I am glad he had never had to take time off or leave. Great player and great dude.
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Since WDADU, DT's average is 1 lineup change per 7 years. Mangini joined in 2011. :corn That means nothing.
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If I remember correctly, there was an interview with JLB during the DT12 era and he talked about being frustrated that he wasn't more involved with lyrics and writing a song and apparently had one that he was interested in taking, but JP ended up writing the lyric. He said that he wouldn't let that happen again and then...well... The Astonishing..
I thought LaBrie would write more lyrics after Portnoy left. I've always wondered if LaBrie wasn't interested in writing or if the other band members were holding him back.
I could see Mangini leaving if he's not given the opportunity to seriously contribute to writing. If the band continues on into their 60s & even their 70s I really don't see how LaBrie will be able to continue...unless they stick with downtuning even lower than they are now & seriously reworking some of the older vocal melodies.
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.............I also think Mangini will be next. That interview he did saying he wasn't happy not being included in the writing is telling. If it happens again, I wouldn't be surprised if he said adios, and I wouldn't blame him...........
Would it be possible to have a link to THAT interview?
Oh and by the way I really like Mike Mangini's playing on the last three albums!!! I really hope he stays with the band!!
Tx
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I think that if Mangini left (and he could) that would really be the end of Dream Theater. One of the main reasons I feel that way, is because Mangini leaving would almost definitely lead to MP coming back....but it would be a complete disaster.
Fact: MP was (along with JP) the co-leader of the band.
Do you really think that MP will be given that same level of power and control within the band when he does return? I would say two things. 1) No freaking way does JP give 50% of the power back to MP and 2) NOT having the level of control he once did would stick in MP's craw like raspberry seed stuck in a denture.
And I'll add one more thing. The relationship between JLB and MP would be a sticking point. Before the split, MP was the co-leader. What he and JP decided on, was the way that things went. JLB had to go along with it. I think JLB breathed a big sigh of relief when MP left, and I'm not sure he would super excited to bring MP back. In fact, I'd be willing to conjecture that if MP did return, JLB would choose that time to "retire from DT under amicable terms" and maybe put more emphasis on his solo work and side projects.
TLDR version: the power dynamic has shifted so much since MPs return, that it can't go back to the way it was, and all the relationships would sour as a result.
Now. On the flip side of that. There is one possible positive outcome. As much as I have ALWAYS loved JLB, and felt that he was *the* voice of Dream Theater, I think we all admit that his voice is not what it once was, and that Dream Theater is a very demanding job. I think there is the slight possibility that everything that I just said happens (MP's return leads to JLB's departure) and the band find a young stud who can sing the old songs and breathes new life into the band. Someone with whom *everyone* gets along with, and the youthful energy re-invigorates the machine. But it's a very slim possibility.
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I think that if Mangini left (and he could) that would really be the end of Dream Theater. One of the main reasons I feel that way, is because Mangini leaving would almost definitely lead to MP coming back....but it would be a complete disaster.
Fact: MP was (along with JP) the co-leader of the band.
Do you really think that MP will be given that same level of power and control within the band when he does return? I would say two things. 1) No freaking way does JP give 50% of the power back to MP and 2) NOT having the level of control he once did would stick in MP's craw like raspberry seed stuck in a denture.
And I'll add one more thing. The relationship between JLB and MP would be a sticking point. Before the split, MP was the co-leader. What he and JP decided on, was the way that things went. JLB had to go along with it. I think JLB breathed a big sigh of relief when MP left, and I'm not sure he would super excited to bring MP back. In fact, I'd be willing to conjecture that if MP did return, JLB would choose that time to "retire from DT under amicable terms" and maybe put more emphasis on his solo work and side projects.
TLDR version: the power dynamic has shifted so much since MPs return, that it can't go back to the way it was, and all the relationships would sour as a result.
Now. On the flip side of that. There is one possible positive outcome. As much as I have ALWAYS loved JLB, and felt that he was *the* voice of Dream Theater, I think we all admit that his voice is not what it once was, and that Dream Theater is a very demanding job. I think there is the slight possibility that everything that I just said happens (MP's return leads to JLB's departure) and the band find a young stud who can sing the old songs and breathes new life into the band. Someone with whom *everyone* gets along with, and the youthful energy re-invigorates the machine. But it's a very slim possibility.
I agree with most of this.
I would be disappointed if they ever let Portnoy back in the band. After all of the cheap shots and digs he has taken at them over the last 7 years, he doesn't deserve to be back in the band. The level of class in the band has never been higher than it is now. No need to knock it down a few pegs.
As for JLB, from the footage I have seen this year, he is pretty rough live now, but he was fine when I saw them a year ago on the Astonishing tour, so I think maybe it's time to do with him what Rush did, which is simply avoid certain songs he cannot sing well live anymore. Sadly, that will eliminate quite a few fan favorites, including a lot of the I&W material, but it is what it is.
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As for JLB, from the footage I have seen this year, he is pretty rough live now, but he was fine when I saw them a year ago on the Astonishing tour, so I think maybe it's time to do with him what Rush did, which is simply avoid certain songs he cannot sing well live anymore. Sadly, that will eliminate quite a few fan favorites, including a lot of the I&W material, but it is what it is.
That's the easiest/wisest thing to do. Not playing a few of these songs wouldn't be too much of a big deal, considering DT has 13 studio albums + a few other songs to choose from for their sets. However, I wouldn't mind them replacing James with another singer who's able to sing all their catalog. Am I the only one who thinks Fabio Lione would be a great fit for DT? :metal
About a posible MP reunion... not gonna happen.
I don't think Mangini is considering to leave anytime soon, he's very excited about writing material for the next DT album and seems to be enjoying his job so far (he does it flawlessly, imo); but if he ever wanted to leave, I don't think it would be the end of DT. If they managed to carry on without their 25 year drummer, it shouldn't be too difficult for them to find someone else who's willing to step in.
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I really hope Mangini doesn't leave (he's a hell of an awesome guy) but even if he does, i don't see them inviting Portnoy back.
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It's not a given that if Mangini leaves, they go back to Mike.
And if they want to, it's not a given also that the personal relationships between them have to stay the way they are now. MP and James can sit down and talk it out.
Under these two conditions - Mangini leaving of his own free will, and Mike sincerely patching it up with James and also Myung if they're at oods also - I'd welcome MP back in DT, otherwise I'd rather have this line-up, or yet another drummer.
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Imagine what would happen if Mangini decided at the end of this year's tour that he wanted to leave the band, and the band decided to ask Portnoy back (with the caveat that he make things right with LaBrie). Would Portnoy throw Sons of Apollo to the side to return to Dream Theater? Can you imagine how much rage Sherinian would be filled with?? :lol :lol
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i think in an blink of an eye he would return to DT and let the guys in SOA fall.
But i hope it doesn't happen and DT stays the way it is now.
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I think this is the definitive line-up until they decide to call it quits.
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Imagine what would happen if Mangini decided at the end of this year's tour that he wanted to leave the band, and the band decided to ask Portnoy back (with the caveat that he make things right with LaBrie). Would Portnoy throw Sons of Apollo to the side to return to Dream Theater? Can you imagine how much rage Sherinian would be filled with?? :lol :lol
:lol That would seem like a no win situation for a lot of people. Interesting thought nonetheless.
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IF (and that's a big IF) there is another lineup change, I would approach it in these ways.
Fan perspective: JLB out. I love the guy's voice but it's just shot now. Having to tune down songs live makes the songs crappy and still LaBrie has been having a lot of difficulty on this current tour. It makes me sad as a fan listening to A Change Of Seasons live tuned down as much as it is and JLB is all over the place. You can tell he's frustrated too. That's the bad part about singing. There will come a time when your voice goes. Solution: pull a Journey or a Queensryche and get a sound-a-like.
Band perspective 1: JR out. Age plus wear and tear from touring. Touring is not like traveling. It's not a vacation. He's 60 now and I'd give him 5 more years tops of touring before he calls it quits. Solution? Who knows? Michael Pinnella (Symphony X isn't doing much these days), Jens Johansson (they considered him after Moore left the band)? There's a host of keyboardists but who can gel with DT?
Band perspective 2: MM out. All musicians desire to exhibit their personal creativity. I feel DT holds him back. Sure, great player. But as a full time member and not a hired gun, when will he get frustrated to the point of going back to Berklee or doing something else musically where he has more input? No way MP returns. He burnt that bridge. There are capable drummers out there, but who would want to walk in and try to fill MP's and MM's shoes? If MM leaves, I suppose they'd get a session guy who can play all the parts live and can do what JP wants in the studio.
Shocker: JMX out. He feels he doesn't have a say. :lol Kidding. He leaves for personal reasons. Doesn't say much as to why but it has to do with his life. No problems with the band. I'd be surprised if he left. He and JP do very well together.
Not gonna happen: JP out. He is the epicenter of DT. If he calls it quits then the band is over.
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While I understand the concerns for Jordan's age, when did he ever even hinted at tour fatigue? from interviews with Iron Maiden, for example, you see them ackwnoledge their "mortality", I've recently read a quote from Nicko McBrain saying "Do you see me playing Run to the Hills at 70 years old?"
I can't remember anything from that like Jordan, ever. He seems passionate as always, and in later years he could tone down the 10000 notes per second and even sit down while playing. Maybe he just hides it very well, but I can't see him all of a sudden go "I'm too old for this".
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Having to tune down songs live makes the songs crappy.
Well, no. To be honest, tuning down ACOS and Metropolis sound heavier. Agreed that JLB struggles but that's one to be expected for the I&W set.
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I actually didn't even notice the half step down. My buddy that was with me, a bass player, had to tell me.
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Having to tune down songs live makes the songs crappy.
Well, no. To be honest, tuning down ACOS and Metropolis sound heavier. Agreed that JLB struggles but that's one to be expected for the I&W set.
I guess it's to my tase. "Crappy" wasn't the best way to describe it. I didn't care for the tuning down. I think the song lost some of it's energy when it got tuned down.
The worst down tuned music going on is Ozzy Osbourne's recent shows with Zakk Wylde. Every song is tuned down not just a half step, but more. Ozzy sounds terrible and the songs sound messed up like something is not right. I digress.
JLB has struggled for a while. I hate it for him.
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I wonder if all performances from now on will be 1/2 step down. Or if it's just because they're playing I&W
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I wonder if all performances from now on will be 1/2 step down. Or if it's just because they're playing I&W
Every song in the current show that's not from the I&W era is tuned normally, not half step down, so that's kinda telling that for now.
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I wonder if all performances from now on will be 1/2 step down. Or if it's just because they're playing I&W
I'm thinking its just this tour because those songs are taxing on James' voice. If they decide to play those songs again on future tours, its likely they'll be in regular tuning.
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I wonder if all performances from now on will be 1/2 step down. Or if it's just because they're playing I&W
I'm thinking its just this tour because those songs are taxing on James' voice. If they decide to play those songs again on future tours, its likely they'll be in regular tuning.
My guess is that most IAW songs won't be played in a looooong time, and some might not be played again, because of this exactly, and also because that would be inmediately after a dedicated tour for that album.
Just like it happened after the ADTOE tour, in which they played a lot of IAW songs; for the next tour, they played nothing from IAW.
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I feel like some I&W song has been played on every tour. Am I wrong?
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I feel like some I&W song has been played on every tour. Am I wrong?
Not on the AFTR tour, even though they played PMU on some festivals in 2014.
But, other than that, you're right, they even played Metropolis on the WDADU tour :o
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^Yup the AFTR tour had no I&W songs except PMU a couple times on one offs. And obviously the TA tour before they added the non-TA encore songs.