DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site

Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: rumborak on July 16, 2017, 02:29:29 PM

Title: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: rumborak on July 16, 2017, 02:29:29 PM
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/john_petrucci_why_i_want_zero_labries_vocals_in_my_monitors_during_shows.html

Color me surprised.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: MirrorMask on July 16, 2017, 02:46:04 PM
Well, his explanation makes sense.

Now I suddenly think back of all the times James sings near to him, like for example the high part of Innocence Faded on Score, and JP must be like "yeah, whatever, yell all you want, I can't hear you"  :lol

So basicallly JP has no idea of how James' doing? he walks off the stage without realizing how he either kicked ass or had a bad day?
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Another_Won on July 16, 2017, 02:59:39 PM
"And it just sounds so heavy and so good. I wish everybody could listen to my mix. I wish I could hand it out to the audience. It's really a great sound."

He says that like he can't make that happen.  Do it JP! Do it!  :rollin
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Adami on July 16, 2017, 03:01:52 PM
I'm glad he has a sound he likes. I know how important that is.

But the fans? Instrumental versions of songs that are as identical as possible to the studio? Seems boring.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: The Silent Cody on July 16, 2017, 03:04:45 PM
I don't know why, but the first line makes me laugh... ;D
"My headphone mix is unbelievable."
 :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: MirrorMask on July 16, 2017, 03:10:54 PM
Speaking on hearing how things sound on stage... I'd love to actually try it. More than a meet n' greet, I would pay for a proper tour of the stage, sitting on the drums, putting on their headphones and hearing how they hear themselves, and so on.

I understand it would be difficult - after all there are people working there, and why would they want to babysit audience members and make sure they don't damage anything they're carefully set up, but what a blast it would be to walk around the stage. My wet dream is to do it with Iron Maiden, but even a tour of DT's stage would be quite good.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Evai on July 16, 2017, 03:25:30 PM
He has his own backing vocals in the mix though??
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: ReaperKK on July 16, 2017, 03:27:14 PM
I would actually pay for a live mix of live DT without JLB. Just to hear what it sounds like live, cowbell and all.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: The Silent Cody on July 16, 2017, 03:29:10 PM
He has his own backing vocals in the mix though??
Don't know that one, but probably yes. I'm not a professional musician as Him but Im a musician and I like to hear myself, am I out of the pitch, or spot on (spot on is rare :P but sometimes happens  ;D )
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: gzarruk on July 16, 2017, 10:44:05 PM
I bet JP thinks James nails it every night  :lol
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Adami on July 16, 2017, 10:51:10 PM
"Hey James....how were you tonight?"
"I was rawkin! I nailed all of it. But uh.....don't watch any youtube videos of it"
"Why not?"
"You know the distortion and stuff.....you can't judge by it"
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: BlobVanDam on July 16, 2017, 11:39:33 PM
"Hey James....how were you tonight?"
"I was rawkin! I nailed all of it. But uh.....don't watch any youtube videos of it"
"Why not?"
"You know the distortion and stuff.....you can't judge by it"

:lol

His reasoning makes sense, although I'd still want the vocals mixed in low so you don't lose track of where you're up to in the song. But whatever works for him. I'm not the one playing on stage.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Evai on July 17, 2017, 03:06:33 AM
Now we wait for all the other band members to admit they asked for JLB to be removed from their ears
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 17, 2017, 06:53:59 AM
As someone who has used in-ears a lot, his reason makes perfect sense. If you are trying to lock in a good, consistent mix, a singer moving along different parts of the stage like that would screw with things.

As to whether he has his own voice in his in-ears, he might, he might not. I know a lot of guys that don't actually mix their vocal into their in-ear mix because when you have ears in, sealing everything off, you can hear yourself singing in your head, even with a pretty loud band mix.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: bosk1 on July 17, 2017, 02:10:29 PM
Speaking on hearing how things sound on stage... I'd love to actually try it. More than a meet n' greet, I would pay for a proper tour of the stage, sitting on the drums, putting on their headphones and hearing how they hear themselves, and so on.

I understand it would be difficult - after all there are people working there, and why would they want to babysit audience members and make sure they don't damage anything they're carefully set up, but what a blast it would be to walk around the stage. My wet dream is to do it with Iron Maiden, but even a tour of DT's stage would be quite good.

Well, not the "hearing part," but they DO sell stage tour packages.  I think it is the "diamond package" where you get a stage tour, and Maddi will answer all kinds of questions about the gear and such.  It's quite cool, and I would highly recommend it for those that can afford it.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Mosh on July 17, 2017, 02:58:08 PM
Hasn't JP said that he can often hear JLB without the microphone?
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: MirrorMask on July 17, 2017, 03:16:38 PM
Hasn't JP said that he can often hear JLB without the microphone?

He doesn't need a microphone, his voice is fucking powerful  :metal
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: CB on July 17, 2017, 04:27:40 PM
Hasn't JP said that he can often hear JLB without the microphone?

He doesn't need a microphone, his voice is fucking powerful  :metal

I remember JP said that he can hear JLB's real voice (not through the microphone) on stage when he's coming near him, because JLB's voice is very loud.

It seems strange to me, being on stage, not hearing your singer and not hearing the audience??? Doesn't JP feel disconnected?

Anyway, the interview is very interesting, as well as JRs interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TToz0QP25YU&feature=youtu.be&t=2851

Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 18, 2017, 07:08:57 AM
It seems strange to me, being on stage, not hearing your singer and not hearing the audience??? Doesn't JP feel disconnected?

A lot of guys have mixes like that in their in-ear monitors, it's pretty common.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: wrighty on July 18, 2017, 10:43:22 AM
"Hey James....how were you tonight?"
"I was rawkin! I nailed all of it. But uh.....don't watch any youtube videos of it"
"Why not?"
"You know the distortion and stuff.....you can't judge by it"

:lol

His reasoning makes sense, although I'd still want the vocals mixed in low so you don't lose track of where you're up to in the song. But whatever works for him. I'm not the one playing on stage.

This.  If someone screws up timing or whatever, the general rule is to follow the singer, I think.  Dream Theater don't make mistakes though, I suppose.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Adami on July 18, 2017, 11:13:45 AM
"Hey James....how were you tonight?"
"I was rawkin! I nailed all of it. But uh.....don't watch any youtube videos of it"
"Why not?"
"You know the distortion and stuff.....you can't judge by it"

:lol

His reasoning makes sense, although I'd still want the vocals mixed in low so you don't lose track of where you're up to in the song. But whatever works for him. I'm not the one playing on stage.

This.  If someone screws up timing or whatever, the general rule is to follow the singer, I think.  Dream Theater don't make mistakes though, I suppose.

Well with DT, the rule is to follow the click.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 18, 2017, 11:27:14 AM
Well with DT, the rule is to follow the click.

For MM it is.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: SeRoX on July 18, 2017, 12:13:18 PM
 If you have no clue what's the reason about; it almost sounds like, JP doesn't want to hear JLB's voice in the mix because he can't stand his voice" when you read it.  :lol
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Adami on July 18, 2017, 12:53:34 PM
Well with DT, the rule is to follow the click.

For MM it is.

When he's playing. When MM isn't playing, whoever is has the click too. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they all have the click to varying degrees in their mix
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Mladen on July 18, 2017, 01:04:29 PM
I bet JP thinks James nails it every night  :lol
Just what I was thinking.  :lol
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 18, 2017, 01:34:08 PM
I would imagine sometimes he can faintly hear James in the background.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 18, 2017, 01:34:17 PM
Well with DT, the rule is to follow the click.

For MM it is.

When he's playing. When MM isn't playing, whoever is has the click too. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they all have the click to varying degrees in their mix

Yeah I think you and I discussed this before if I remember right. I'd guess the other guys don't hear the click when MM is playing, only when he isn't.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: The Silent Cody on July 18, 2017, 04:27:04 PM
Well with DT, the rule is to follow the click.

For MM it is.

When he's playing. When MM isn't playing, whoever is has the click too. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they all have the click to varying degrees in their mix

Yeah I think you and I discussed this before if I remember right. I'd guess the other guys don't hear the click when MM is playing, only when he isn't.

Do You remember bonus Live At Budokan videos? There is a scene where JR and JP are rehearsing Goodnight Kiss, and JP is saying clearly that he is creating the tempo in that one. So They can't have click in a mix in that case. Maybe in some songs, but IMO not in everyone.   
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Skeever on July 18, 2017, 04:32:08 PM
Every time I've seen DT live, James has been pretty ear-splitting just due to sheer volume. Plus his voice these days has a very shrill, ice-pick sound live. Combined with all the processing he seems to have going on, I wouldn't be surprised for those reasonswhy JP wants that - as well as the ambient sound - out of his mix. I could imagine it's very distracting, especially if James is struggling that night.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: ErHaO on July 18, 2017, 04:44:32 PM
Well with DT, the rule is to follow the click.

For MM it is.

When he's playing. When MM isn't playing, whoever is has the click too. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they all have the click to varying degrees in their mix

Yeah I think you and I discussed this before if I remember right. I'd guess the other guys don't hear the click when MM is playing, only when he isn't.

Do You remember bonus Live At Budokan videos? There is a scene where JR and JP are rehearsing Goodnight Kiss, and JP is saying clearly that he is creating the tempo in that one. So They can't have click in a mix in that case. Maybe in some songs, but IMO not in everyone.   

I believe this changed when MP left? I think all their performances nowadays are in the same tempo as the studio versions, or at least the same on all shows, unlike the past. But I am sure others know this better than me. Furthermore, during the previous shows  Also, during previous tours a lot of the songs where perfectly aligned with the supportive video's, usually bands use click tracks to do so I think.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: bosk1 on July 18, 2017, 05:19:49 PM
Yeah, they only started using a click since the ADTOE tour. 
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Madman Shepherd on July 18, 2017, 06:07:44 PM
Yeah, they only started using a click since the ADTOE tour.

Well they used it on some songs before then.  Not the majority though. 
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: El Barto on July 18, 2017, 06:12:56 PM
Now I suddenly think back of all the times James sings near to him, like for example the high part of Innocence Faded on Score, and JP must be like "yeah, whatever, yell all you want, I can't hear you"  :lol
This made me laugh, as I know exactly the part you're referring to. JP's expression becomes almost taunting in that context.  :lol
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: ariich on July 19, 2017, 03:10:27 AM
"Hey James....how were you tonight?"
"I was rawkin! I nailed all of it. But uh.....don't watch any youtube videos of it"
"Why not?"
"You know the distortion and stuff.....you can't judge by it"
WHY I OUGHTA :lol
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 19, 2017, 07:21:51 AM
Do You remember bonus Live At Budokan videos? There is a scene where JR and JP are rehearsing Goodnight Kiss, and JP is saying clearly that he is creating the tempo in that one. So They can't have click in a mix in that case. Maybe in some songs, but IMO not in everyone.   

With MP they didn't use click, with MM they do.

Yeah, they only started using a click since the ADTOE tour.

Well they used it on some songs before then.  Not the majority though.

Live? I don't think so. I remember MP saying that when he first played live with AX7 that was the first time he played to a click live.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: The Silent Cody on July 19, 2017, 08:42:27 AM
Do You remember bonus Live At Budokan videos? There is a scene where JR and JP are rehearsing Goodnight Kiss, and JP is saying clearly that he is creating the tempo in that one. So They can't have click in a mix in that case. Maybe in some songs, but IMO not in everyone.   

Live? I don't think so. I remember MP saying that when he first played live with AX7 that was the first time he played to a click live.
I didn't know that... I knew that They are using click with MM, but it's kind of impressive for me that They haven't been using click eith MP at all. It makes Them even more great musicians in my eyes...
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: romdrums on July 21, 2017, 12:37:31 PM
Richard Chycki came to my work for a meeting recently, and he said that James has a very powerful voice.  So much so that he doesn't risk using some of his vintage mics for James' vocals, because James sings with enough force that he can damage the diaphragms on those mics.  Based on that, I can believe that JP can hear James live without having any of his vocal in his in-ears.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 21, 2017, 01:30:56 PM
Richard Chycki came to my work for a meeting recently, and he said that James has a very powerful voice.  So much so that he doesn't risk using some of his vintage mics for James' vocals, because James sings with enough force that he can damage the diaphragms on those mics.  Based on that, I can believe that JP can hear James live without having any of his vocal in his in-ears.

That's legit.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Mosh on July 21, 2017, 02:13:11 PM
If I was JP I wouldn't want James in my mix either. Nothing personal and nothing to do with his voice , by when I'm on stage the last thing I pay attention to is the singer.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: The Silent Cody on July 21, 2017, 02:54:42 PM
If I was JP I wouldn't want James in my mix either. Nothing personal and nothing to do with his voice , by when I'm on stage the last thing I pay attention to is the singer.
This. I have the same thing. Vocals are minority in my mix, It's kind of, depends also of music style You are playing I think. For me - death metal and other instrumental project which is not playing live because it's only "spreading through internet" project. Anyway, in death, vocals are not needed for me in my mix, I have guitars and drums only and some midi samples when we use them.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Evai on July 21, 2017, 06:11:59 PM
This kinda thing feels a bit isolating. There isn't really any chemistry between James and Petrucci on stage anymore, they seem to be in their own little worlds, with their own completely different mix of what's happening on stage
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: rumborak on July 21, 2017, 06:24:37 PM
If I was JP I wouldn't want James in my mix either. Nothing personal and nothing to do with his voice , by when I'm on stage the last thing I pay attention to is the singer.

You must be playing in very different bands than the ones I played in...
The singer is the focal point of the band. He/she interacts with the audience, it's the primary impetus for the character of the performance. I could not imagine being a guitar player not being aware of this key part of the performance.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Adami on July 21, 2017, 09:16:31 PM
Okay, a few things here.

First, James having a powerful voice has nothing to do with this unless he's right near Petrucci. At no point will Petrucci actually hear LaBrie to any meaningful degree on stage unless he's right next to him singing loudly. No matter how powerful his voice is.

Second, yea, hearing the voice is pretty necessary for almost all bands. I know when I played in many bands, I always needed the vocals to at least some degree to know where in the song I was, it can get pretty odd without it. Obviously DT treat vocals as an afterthought to the music and the guys are probably just as familiar with the instrumental versions of their songs as they are with vocals, but it also really does cause a disconnect. You're not hearing what the audience is hearing. You're in a different world.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Cable on July 21, 2017, 09:42:32 PM

Second, yea, hearing the voice is pretty necessary for almost all bands. I know when I played in many bands, I always needed the vocals to at least some degree to know where in the song I was, it can get pretty odd without it. Obviously DT treat vocals as an afterthought to the music and the guys are probably just as familiar with the instrumental versions of their songs as they are with vocals, but it also really does cause a disconnect. You're not hearing what the audience is hearing. You're in a different world.


Totally with you here, I use vocals as reference points often to know whats coming up.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Evai on July 22, 2017, 03:18:46 PM
I think consistency is the reason. Instrumental-wise, the band play exactly the same thing every night, but James tends to change things, change melodies and rhythms depending on how his voice feels (when was the last time he sang 'every breath leaves me one less to my last' as one continuous phrase, without the pause?) It's like if you're playing rhythm guitar and your lead guitarist starts shredding completely out of time, it could mess you up :p
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Adami on July 22, 2017, 03:25:12 PM
I think consistency is the reason. Instrumental-wise, the band play exactly the same thing every night, but James tends to change things, change melodies and rhythms depending on how his voice feels (when was the last time he sang 'every breath leaves me one less to my last' as one continuous phrase, without the pause?) It's like if you're playing rhythm guitar and your lead guitarist starts shredding completely out of time, it could mess you up :p

Yea, but making some changes and totally screwing it up are different things. Slightly different melodies or phrasing shouldn't throw JP off so much that he loses it.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Ben_Jamin on July 22, 2017, 03:47:29 PM
Maybe that's also why he doesn't have him in the mix. So JLB can do as he wishes with the melodies and JP won't get distracted and off time. I'm sure he can hear him through his in ears at times though.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: ToT-147 on July 22, 2017, 10:54:25 PM
Why the assumptions though, when we have the actual reasons that JP just gave?.. ;)
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on July 22, 2017, 10:56:52 PM
I wouldn't want JLB's voice blazing through my projector either every night, I'd want to focus. It's different being a fan in the audience of course
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Evai on July 23, 2017, 05:51:11 AM
Why the assumptions though, when we have the actual reasons that JP just gave?.. ;)

I don't trust a word that guy says  :lol
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: MirrorMask on July 23, 2017, 08:43:28 AM
I think consistency is the reason. Instrumental-wise, the band play exactly the same thing every night, but James tends to change things, change melodies and rhythms depending on how his voice feels (when was the last time he sang 'every breath leaves me one less to my last' as one continuous phrase, without the pause?) It's like if you're playing rhythm guitar and your lead guitarist starts shredding completely out of time, it could mess you up :p

I completely understand what you're saying, but I would assume that a professional musician who knows the song he's performing inside out, wouldn't be thrown off by a note held longer or a pause to let the audience sing.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Evai on July 23, 2017, 12:00:16 PM
Remember that video where Portnoy got annoyed because Labrie started singing a later part in the song, skipping a long instrumental section? Or when something went weird in Pull Me Under and they had to stop and start over? JP probably still has nightmares and this helps prevent it happening
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: MirrorMask on July 23, 2017, 12:21:08 PM
Remember that video where Portnoy got annoyed because Labrie started singing a later part in the song, skipping a long instrumental section?

Quite sure that was Metropolis - and he didn't skip over a "long instrumental section", he just went almost directly into "Before the leaves are fallen" rather than talking to the audience while the band was jamming over the music, like they were used to do.

Still a mistake, but he simply skipped over an extra moment meant to serve as a "thank you, you've been great tonight" kind of stuff, he didn't cut a solo section meant to be played as it was on the album.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Architeuthis on July 23, 2017, 01:31:43 PM
That would take a little getting used to for me. Vocals always serve as a good reference point to where you're at in the song while playing live. It takes away the counting work and makes it easier to focus on putting on a show.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: ReaperKK on July 23, 2017, 02:58:38 PM
Just watched that video again and it was hilarious.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: gzarruk on July 23, 2017, 07:47:58 PM
On most live videos of TGOM i've seen, James sings the "He'll be the one to save us all" line earlier than he should. There's a small silence and he often starts that line inmediately after the line before, instead of leaving that short silence there.
Not having James on the in ear mix prevents the musicians from getting lost in the song when things like these happen, specially since they're playing to a backing track, and it's pretty bad when you screw up time while playing with a backing track. It's happened to me...

Also, I play regularly on Church with an IEM system and can assure you that having vocals (specially backing vocals) on your mix is not the best idea  :biggrin:
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Adami on July 23, 2017, 08:49:01 PM
So you guys are saying that despite JP saying that he has JLB out of his mix because of sound issues, it's actually became James can't be trusted to perform well and not screw up the entire band?
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Evai on July 24, 2017, 03:43:36 AM
Sound issues is pretty unlikely, wouldn't all bands do it?
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 24, 2017, 07:00:06 AM
So you guys are saying that despite JP saying that he has JLB out of his mix because of sound issues, it's actually became James can't be trusted to perform well and not screw up the entire band?

It seems they are saying that, clearly that JP guy can't be taken at his word.

Sound issues is pretty unlikely, wouldn't all bands do it?

Why is that unlikely? The reason he gave makes perfect sense. He could probably afford to have a little vocal in his mix without getting too much wash from the stage, but he clearly wants super clean, precise sounding mixes in his ears, and this is the way he gets that.

Also, keep in mind the band has been on in-ears since the SDOIT tour, so this probably isn't some new development.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Evai on July 24, 2017, 07:33:05 AM
I mean it's pretty difficult to be famous/a celebrity. If you are actually truthful and say what you mean, it'll get taken out of context and made into a headline. It's pretty much guaranteed that you'll only ever hear JP saying nice things. So we end up drawing our own conclusions about everything  :lol
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 24, 2017, 01:44:03 PM
I mean it's pretty difficult to be famous/a celebrity. If you are actually truthful and say what you mean, it'll get taken out of context and made into a headline. It's pretty much guaranteed that you'll only ever hear JP saying nice things. So we end up drawing our own conclusions about everything  :lol

Or... the unthinkable alternative is that JP is being totally honest and is a really nice guy...
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: CB on July 24, 2017, 03:58:46 PM
So you guys are saying that despite JP saying that he has JLB out of his mix because of sound issues, it's actually became James can't be trusted to perform well and not screw up the entire band?

That wouldn't be flattering for JP  :laugh: - JR has no problems with JLB's voice in his ears but JP would screw up ...

I think JP was just honest.

I wonder what JM and MM hear. Especially MM, click track and drums only?
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 24, 2017, 04:07:13 PM
MM is the timekeeper.  Everyone else does their part based on his accuracy.  That's pretty much the bottom line.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Evai on July 24, 2017, 05:34:00 PM
If he wanted to he could have the vocals from the studio versions playing back in his in-ears..
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Grizz on July 24, 2017, 10:46:42 PM
If I was playing The Atonishing live I'd have the vocals cut from my IEMs too
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: sfam2112 on July 25, 2017, 03:37:33 AM

I wonder what JM and MM hear. Especially MM, click track and drums only?

At one of the ADToE shows I saw, James came in early on the second verse of "Bridges in The Sky" and Mangini followed/adjusted to him. So, at that point at least, MM could hear JLB.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: rumborak on July 25, 2017, 08:36:13 AM
MM is the timekeeper.  Everyone else does their part based on his accuracy.  That's pretty much the bottom line.

Technically, the click track is the timekeeper. That is, if he wanted, JP could play with nothing but the click track and his guitar in the mix, and he'd still be fine.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: ToT-147 on July 25, 2017, 10:48:44 AM

I wonder what JM and MM hear. Especially MM, click track and drums only?

At one of the ADToE shows I saw, James came in early on the second verse of "Bridges in The Sky" and Mangini followed/adjusted to him. So, at that point at least, MM could hear JLB.

This, along with the -very few- mistakes of this kind that they have made since MM's in the band (like when they -or MM- screw up timing in TDoE) proves that they're not slaves of the click and that this can be and should be actually changed when is necessary.. Not sure if it proves that MM can, in his in-ears, hear James.. He's seeing him, singing/moving his lips, and anyways I'm sure he's able to hear him through the whole noise giving that some here have said that JLB's voice is that strong..
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Adami on July 25, 2017, 10:52:33 AM

I wonder what JM and MM hear. Especially MM, click track and drums only?

At one of the ADToE shows I saw, James came in early on the second verse of "Bridges in The Sky" and Mangini followed/adjusted to him. So, at that point at least, MM could hear JLB.

I'd ask for proof of this. With a click, MM can't just adjust things. So either they turned it off, or you misheard what happened.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: LPMX on July 25, 2017, 11:35:04 AM
A bit of a newb question here, but what does a click track sounds like?
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: MirrorMask on July 25, 2017, 11:38:52 AM
A bit of a newb question here, but what does a click track sounds like?

I would assume it's like a metronome, keeping the time with little "hits" like when a drummer counts in a song, to keep the drummer in time. Depending on the song, along the click there may be also pre-programmed stuff like additional instruments or a backing track, which will come in at the right moment since the drummer follows the precise time he's hearing in his headphones.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 25, 2017, 12:52:29 PM
I'd ask for proof of this. With a click, MM can't just adjust things. So either they turned it off, or you misheard what happened.

Probably turned it off if that went down that way.

A bit of a newb question here, but what does a click track sounds like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6ii1YRFwns

I would assume it's like a metronome, keeping the time with little "hits" like when a drummer counts in a song, to keep the drummer in time. Depending on the song, along the click there may be also pre-programmed stuff like additional instruments or a backing track, which will come in at the right moment since the drummer follows the precise time he's hearing in his headphones.

I mean we are kinda getting into semantics here, but technically I consider a click track to be just that and only that. It can have accents on downbeats, maybe even count-ins, but it's just a click. Beyond that, the other things you mentioned are getting into loops, backing tracks, whatever you want to call them on top of the click track.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Dublagent66 on July 25, 2017, 01:40:05 PM
MM is the timekeeper.  Everyone else does their part based on his accuracy.  That's pretty much the bottom line.

Technically, the click track is the timekeeper. That is, if he wanted, JP could play with nothing but the click track and his guitar in the mix, and he'd still be fine.

Technically, but I'm old school.  It's still the drummer's responsibility to keep everyone on track with song.  It's always been that way.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Evai on July 25, 2017, 02:12:25 PM
Does JP have harmony tracks playing with some of his solos? I seem to remember seeing that but I could be imagining. If so, that'd make it impossible for Mangini to adjust for Labrie coming in early (unless the tracks are triggered manually)
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 25, 2017, 02:18:16 PM
Does JP have harmony tracks playing with some of his solos? I seem to remember seeing that but I could be imagining. If so, that'd make it impossible for Mangini to adjust for Labrie coming in early (unless the tracks are triggered manually)

Depends on the song, sometime yes, sometimes no. Hard to tell if he's looping that in as a track or if he's using the AxeFx in his rig for that stuff and stomping it on and off as needed.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: rumborak on July 25, 2017, 02:38:22 PM
A bit of a newb question here, but what does a click track sounds like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6ii1YRFwns


That is of course the prototype of a click track, but these days they can be rather elaborate affairs. Gavin Harrison wrote an article about the design of click tracks:

http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/creating-click-tracks-drummers

He puts all kinds on stuff into them to help him navigate the song.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Evai on July 25, 2017, 04:16:51 PM
Does JP have harmony tracks playing with some of his solos? I seem to remember seeing that but I could be imagining. If so, that'd make it impossible for Mangini to adjust for Labrie coming in early (unless the tracks are triggered manually)

Depends on the song, sometime yes, sometimes no. Hard to tell if he's looping that in as a track or if he's using the AxeFx in his rig for that stuff and stomping it on and off as needed.

I actually spoke to Petrucci about this, suprisingly it's neither backing tracks or the AxeFX.  Apparently he tends to write his solos at a high enough speed, that it allows him to time warp and play harmony with himself  :tup
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: wrighty on July 25, 2017, 05:24:33 PM
With the time signature changes in DT's music, I can't see how if they're using a click track they can 'follow the singer' if there happens to be a mistake.  'Lost not Forgotten' springs to mind.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: mikeyd23 on July 26, 2017, 07:12:39 AM
A bit of a newb question here, but what does a click track sounds like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6ii1YRFwns


That is of course the prototype of a click track, but these days they can be rather elaborate affairs. Gavin Harrison wrote an article about the design of click tracks:

http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/creating-click-tracks-drummers

He puts all kinds on stuff into them to help him navigate the song.

For sure, what I posted was the most basic of click tracks.

Really cool article, good read. Interesting how much detail he puts into his click tracks.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: ToT-147 on July 26, 2017, 05:33:24 PM
With the time signature changes in DT's music, I can't see how if they're using a click track they can 'follow the singer' if there happens to be a mistake.  'Lost not Forgotten' springs to mind.

Yup, this..
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Herrick on August 27, 2017, 12:06:14 PM
Remember that video where Portnoy got annoyed because Labrie started singing a later part in the song, skipping a long instrumental section? Or when something went weird in Pull Me Under and they had to stop and start over? JP probably still has nightmares and this helps prevent it happening

If Petrucci or another band member can't hear LaBrie screw up then wouldn't that be a potential train wreck?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how those in-ear monitors work. Are they like ear plugs that block outside noise? I'd want to be able to hear the singer if I were playing live.

Here's that Metropolis Part I video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_RuBLCPPjk

As for comments about Petrucci not being honest...If Petrucci doesn't like LaBrie's singing, then why would he even say there's no vocals in his live mix? He could've just lied and said he has vocals in the mix or not even mentioned the vocal presence at all.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: ToT-147 on August 27, 2017, 08:41:02 PM
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how those in-ear monitors work. Are they like ear plugs that block outside noise? I'd want to be able to hear the singer if I were playing live.

No, they're mixes of all the band, except, like in this case, if you don't want a particular instrument to be in it.. But yeah, normally they serve the musician to hear everything..

As for comments about Petrucci not being honest...If Petrucci doesn't like LaBrie's singing, then why would he even say there's no vocals in his live mix? He could've just lied and said he has vocals in the mix or not even mentioned the vocal presence at all.

Or... he might not like it and being implicitly honest by bringing that up..
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Herrick on August 27, 2017, 09:06:42 PM

No, they're mixes of all the band, except, like in this case, if you don't want a particular instrument to be in it.. But yeah, normally they serve the musician to hear everything.

Makes sense. So he can hear LaBrie. Still not sure how keeping LaBrie out of the mix would help to avoid screwups though.

Or... he might not like it and being implicitly honest by bringing that up..

Possible but unlikely.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: mikeyd23 on August 28, 2017, 08:52:07 AM

No, they're mixes of all the band, except, like in this case, if you don't want a particular instrument to be in it.. But yeah, normally they serve the musician to hear everything.

Makes sense. So he can hear LaBrie. Still not sure how keeping LaBrie out of the mix would help to avoid screwups though.

John explained how. With James walking all over the stage, if JP had James' vocal mic turned up too much in his ears, he'd get constant bleed depending on where James was on stage. For example he'd get more drum bleed if James set his mic on the stand next to the kit, or tons of crowd noise when James turns his mic to the audience to let them sing. Basically, by having James very low in his mix, his mix stays consistent and very dialed in.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Ben_Jamin on August 28, 2017, 09:22:38 PM
An in-ear mix really only helps the player keep in time with the other musicians, and know where they're in the song. Ex. JM has his bass and MM drums high in the mix (only speculation). Every musician is different and some enjoy hearing everyone.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Herrick on August 29, 2017, 12:05:11 AM

No, they're mixes of all the band, except, like in this case, if you don't want a particular instrument to be in it.. But yeah, normally they serve the musician to hear everything.

Makes sense. So he can hear LaBrie. Still not sure how keeping LaBrie out of the mix would help to avoid screwups though.

John explained how. With James walking all over the stage, if JP had James' vocal mic turned up too much in his ears, he'd get constant bleed depending on where James was on stage. For example he'd get more drum bleed if James set his mic on the stand next to the kit, or tons of crowd noise when James turns his mic to the audience to let them sing. Basically, by having James very low in his mix, his mix stays consistent and very dialed in.

The type of screwup I was talking about was the one Evai referenced in Metroplis Part I where LaBrie started singing when the band was supposed to do an instrumental section. Evai also mentioned a performance of Pull Me Under but I don't know about that one.
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: MirrorMask on August 29, 2017, 01:03:40 AM
It wasn't really an instrumental section per se, more the usual jam at the end of Metropolis to allow James to say "thank you, you've been great, blablabla" before going into "Before the leaves are fallen".

It's not that he forgot a big chunk of a studio version song, he simply skipped over something additional, still a mistake, but quite funny in indsight  :D
Title: Re: JP has no JLB vocals in his live mix apparently
Post by: Grizz on September 15, 2017, 09:16:01 PM
The band had been doing chats/jams during that extended bridge for something like 10 years by then. However, they had not played Metropolis in any form in 6 days, closing the previous two shows with LtL, and had not played Metropolis from the top in 2 months. James was really audibly ill that night. Like, that was one of his worst nights between 2000 and 2016. They were concerned about recovering by Score (3 days later), and that night was not exactly an easy set. Score adds another layer of confusion: this was basically rehearsal for the encore of Score, which was to be played more or less as it was on the album, creating potential for misunderstanding. In addition, Hudson Music had been filming that whole show, which probably made some things just a little bit off. So, I think that, between being anxious to end the show, and being a bit distracted by illness and everything that was going on that night, James had a brain fart.

It sounded like a worse mistake because JP and MP had successfully transitioned into the next part, which was supposed to begin with mostly JM, with some twinkling by Jordan and some jibba-jabba. This made it sound like JP and MP completely lost where they were and dropped out for a second, when in reality they had done everything right.

Interestingly, if neither JP nor MP had JLB in their IEMs, they would have gone longer before realizing his mistake. Who knows what that would've sounded/looked like. Something similar happened in 2012. I have to wonder if JP would've kept going if he wasn't paying close attention, and how he knew to bring it back to the top of the verse. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcYvKaY_0AM)