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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: Samsara on June 02, 2017, 10:28:11 AM
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Introduction & Band History
Welcome to the Queensr˙che Discography! This thread is completely inspired by the one on Iron Maiden started by Mosh -- https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=50220.0 -- and will mimic the format and style. Hope you enjoy!
Queensr˙che was originally called "The Mob," and consisted of Chris DeGarmo, Michael Wilton, Eddie Jackson, and Scott Rockenfield. The foursome did not have a singer, and enlisted the help of local standout Jeff (later "Geoff") Tate at various parties and "Battle of the Bands" events in the suburbs of Seattle. The group formed in 1981/1982, although the lineup with Tate didn't officially cement until the band was signed to a label in 1983.
They switched from "The Mob" to "Queensr˙che" because "The Mob" was already taken by another band. No one could come up with an alternate name, so DeGarmo had the idea of morphing the song title "Queen of the Reich" to "Queensreich," and adjusting it to "Queensr˙che" to avoid any association with the Nazi party.
Queensr˙che EP (1982/1983)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51zsJSk5A9L._AC_US218_.jpg)
Lineup:
Geoff Tate – Vocals
Chris DeGarmo – Guitar/Vocals
Michael Wilton – Guitar
Eddie Jackson – Bass
Scott Rockenfield – Drums
The Queensryche EP was first worked on when the band was called “The Mob,” which was known primarily as a NWOBHM covers band in the Seattle suburbs. The four musicians in The Mob went to work on original material, writing "Queen of the Reich," "Nightrider," and "Blinded" entirely, and the music to "The Lady Wore Black."
After saving money at odd jobs, the band, which was without a vocalist (Tate sang with The Mob for fun, but was a member of other bands at the time) was ready to hit the studio in 1982. They asked Tate to sing on the EP, and he agreed – after a bit of reluctance because he was heavily involved with MYTH (featuring later Queensryche guitarist Kelly Gray).
They recorded the EP after-hours at Triad Studios. Tate wrote the lyrics to "The Lady Wore Black" in the studio. A little known fact – the whistling in the tune wasn't supposed to be there. Tate was whistling prior to recording it, and had no idea tape was rolling. But the band dug it as an intro so much, they kept it.
The EP was heavily influenced by NwoBH bands, most specifically, Judas Priest and Iron Maiden. The twin lead guitar attack is on full display, without Wilton and DeGarmo's solos highlighting the four songs. People were blown away by Tate's vocal range, particularly the opening note to “Queen of the Reich,” but the idea for that note was borrowed from Deep Purple's Ian Gillan, who did something similar on “Highway Star.”
The artwork for the record, in particular, the beginnings on the tri-ryche (see back cover image of EP, below), are debated among fans. Some claim the tri-ryche was created by Wes Griswold, but others cite Todd Rockenfield, Scott's brother. I happen to believe the former.
The EP was originally released in summer 1982 on 206 Records, a company started by the band's first managers, Kim and Diana Harris. It originally didn't do anything, until the Harris' sent it overseas to various European metal magazines, and KERRANG profiled it, naming the band “Queensrych” the next big thing. Once that article published, the EP quickly sold out just through word of mouth, EMI Records came calling in late summer 1983, after the band officially played its first two gigs under the “Queensryche” name in June 1983, opening as a local band for Zebra in both Portland and Seattle. Tate left MYTH once the EMI Records deal was a sure thing, signing on to Queensryche, and the band signed a seven-album deal.
EMI then re-released the EP in 1983. “Prophecy” was a track conceived of during this time period, but wasn't recorded for the EP initially. It was recorded for the Decline of Western Civilization soundtrack, but then was recorded again during the Rage for Order sessions, and included on a re-release of the EP in 1988. A remaster was done and released in 2003.
Touring for the EP was short, taking place primarily in fall 1983 with Twisted Sister, Quiet Riot, and Dio. The tour consisted of the EP songs, “Prophecy,” and earlier versions of other tunes the band was working up at the time that would later appear on its next record, The Warning.
1988 re-release of EP back cover to illustrate the early tri-ryche (the original back cover was essentially the same, except without EMI listed, and without "Prophecy." The color was also a little different.):
(https://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~bigoleg/queensryche/sleeves/ep_back.jpg)
For more on the history of this era, and the EP, visit https://anybodylistening.net/1.html and https://anybodylistening.net/ep.html
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Awesome Brian!!
Will follow and contribute whenever possible. Have lots to say about the EP era. Will do so later.
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I'll be completely honest - I have never been able to get into Queensryche, really at all. I'm going to follow this thread, listening as I go and see if anything clicks for me. Thanks for doing this.
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Between this and the IM discography thread I'm happier than a pig in shit.
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Ohohoho, this should be a good thread! :metal
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My introduction to the band was from later albums, but I remember buying the EP and its follow-up together in 1998 or early 99 when my fandom really took off. Definitely prior to the Q2K tour in late 99.
I've always considered it to be their debut album, and loved the full-on metalness of the songs. Looking at their later songs, yes, this EP is fully derivative of their influences, but the title track is a classic. I'm glad that the current lineup plays Queen of the Reich at every show - that song to me, is like Iron Maiden, the song.
As a metalhead, I think they should have kept that logo around for a while though. Pointy letters make things better. :metal
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Great OP!
I used to listen to a Metal Show every Saturday night when I was a kid. My Freshman year of high school was 82-83, and Sophomore year was 83-84. I recorded all of the shows from the radio. I vividly remember my thoughts when I first heard Queen Of The Ryche.
It was metal so fresh and grandiose. A new take on metal and they really sounded like no other band. The who was the dude singing?? :omg:
I also remember when I bought the tape that the record store was handing out a newsletter detailing the Harris sisters signing the band, etc..
Brian, I know I've asked you if you've ever seen this newsletter before. Does anyone else remember this??
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I'm not sure how often to do each record, so I'll do The Warning maybe on Monday or Tuesday?
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I remember buying the EP off of Raspberry Records "Employees Favorites" rack after hearing it at warm-up party for a Dio concert. After getting it home I only ever liked the songs Queen of the Reich and The Lady Wore Black though. This was around the time my second child was born so my record budget took a pretty big hit and the feeling that I could have spent my money on something better probably colored my opinion. The EP was in the pile of vinyl records I shipped to that same child 30+ years later. :lol
I'm not sure how often to do each record, so I'll do The Warning maybe on Monday or Tuesday?
In retrospect, I ran through the B.O.C. discography a bit quickly, so I recommend giving each title a week to accumulate discussion. There will be some slow days but it always bothered me when folks would pop in and say that they wished they had seen the thread earlier. Also, maybe ask jingle.boy to add you to the tracker thread.
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Lady wore black is one of my favorite QR songs. Overall a really solid EP
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I'm not sure how often to do each record, so I'll do The Warning maybe on Monday or Tuesday?
Thanks for the ..um..warning.
:neverusethis:
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I had to backtrack since my introduction was The Warning. I'll talk about that during the next album.
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I remember when KZOK first played Queen of the Reich in a "new local" segment. Totally...blew...my....doors....off.
I also remember when they were invited into the studio for an interview when the EP first got re-released.
A couple years later (maybe 84), I was talking to that very DJ. I asked him who the biggest jerk in all of rock-n-roll was. Without hesitation, he said "That singer from Queensryche. He's a completely arrogant douchbag." I would be reminded of this when I personally met Geoff at a Kiss concert around '87....when he acted like a completely arrogant douchbag.
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I remember when KZOK first played Queen of the Reich in a "new local" segment. Totally...blew...my....doors....off.
Yes it did, man.
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Good stuff Brian - will follow.
I came to QR pretty late (Mindcrime) and worked my way back , but having said that I was barely 14yo when it was released
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I'm not sure how often to do each record, so I'll do The Warning maybe on Monday or Tuesday?
I try waiting a week. If the discussion dies down early I'll do an update. The in-betweens like live albums and stuff don't take as long.
Following btw.
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A couple years later (maybe 84), I was talking to that very DJ. I asked him who the biggest jerk in all of rock-n-roll was. Without hesitation, he said "That singer from Queensryche. He's a completely arrogant douchbag." I would be reminded of this when I personally met Geoff at a Kiss concert around '87....when he acted like a completely arrogant douchbag.
Wow, even back then?
I was introduced to Queensryche not long after Maiden. I got an MP3 player as a Christmas gift from my parents and my dad put 5 songs on there, including The Eyes of a Stranger. I thought Geoff Tate sounded like Bruce Dickinson which was good enough for me. I can't remember if I listened to Mindcrime back then or not, but I didn't really get into that album until much later. I like QR up to Empire but everything since has been a disappointment IMO. I look forward to potentially having my perspective changed with this thread.
My thought on the EP is that it is bookended by two fantastic songs with two fairly average songs in between. Not bad at all, Night Rider in particular stuck out to me this time, but they don't have the wow factor of Queen Of the Reich. I also love the raw early QR sound. Mindcrime is a classic of course, but they kinda lost their edge fairly quickly. It wasn't like Iron Maiden where the band's energy consisted through all the different musical directions.
Are we going to talk about the live concert included on some versions of the EP? It's an awesome recording.
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There's an edginess and energy on the ep that some have argued has never been attained in any of their subsequent albums. I seem to recall that some fans were disappointed by the subdued production that followed on The Warning.
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This will be awesome!!!
The EP is just fantastic and to me, Queen of the Reich is just one of the defining songs of heavy metal. I was also blown away by it the first time I heard it. One of the best screams to ever start off a metal song.
Lady Wore Black is just as cool and is one of my favourite power ballads ever.
The band set such a huge standard for heavy metal from these songs, that I'm sure they disappointed a lot of metal heads when they were never able to fully match the heavy metal aspect as the EP. Starting with the Warning, they just showed they would be diverse and not just straight up metal.
Anyway, following big time as Brian definitely knows his Queensryche
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I'm surely following this and if I find the time I will even write about some of my thoughts. :biggrin: :metal
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There's an edginess and energy on the ep that some have argued has never been attained in any of their subsequent albums. I seem to recall that some fans were disappointed by the subdued production that followed on The Warning.
I hadn't heard the full ep when I got TW, and I was disappointed in the production, but we'll get to that I guess. The ep is awesome, but full of youthful exuberance I guess.
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Should have said that my first contact with QR was through hearing QotR on the Friday Rock show on radio 1 in the uk. Grabbed me straight away and they became my favourite band very quickly.
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As much as I love most of the stuff up through Promised Land, the debut EP does little for me. Just a bit too raw and rough around the edges for me, I guess.
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Oh man, I used to love QR back in 2011 - 2013, I don't really listen to them much any more, but this bands "history" sure fascinates me. Definitely following.
That being said I never was that enamored with the EP. I like a couple of the songs, but much like KevShmev said its a bit too...unpolished for my liking.
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Following the fuck out of this. Will read/catch up later.
(https://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/100/dis%20gon%20be%20good.gif)
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I LOVE the debut. Queen of the ryche is one of my favorites
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A couple years later (maybe 84), I was talking to that very DJ. I asked him who the biggest jerk in all of rock-n-roll was. Without hesitation, he said "That singer from Queensryche. He's a completely arrogant douchbag." I would be reminded of this when I personally met Geoff at a Kiss concert around '87....when he acted like a completely arrogant douchbag.
Wow, even back then?
This is why I never held out much hope that he would change his ways when the money ran out. He's *always* been this way. Way before they ever had any money rolling in. It is just his basic nature.
I truly believe the other guys tolerated him only because they knew he was the voice of a lifetime. "Was" being the key word in that sentence.
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I truly believe the other guys tolerated him only because they knew he was the voice of a lifetime. "Was" being the key word in that sentence.
So the band were hangers-on from the start?
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I truly believe the other guys tolerated him only because they knew he was the voice of a lifetime. "Was" being the key word in that sentence.
So the band were hangers-on from the start?
It's really difficult to say. And it's pure speculation. But there can be no denying two basic facts...
1) Geoff Tate was not just a great singer....he was possibly THE greatest metal singer of his entire generation. EVERYONE that heard QotR on the radio were immediately nailed by that opening note. Geoff Tate was something really REALLY special, and opportunities to work with a singer of that high quality do not just drop in your lap every day. Just ask MP about the difficulty they had finding *the singer* circa 1991....and they had a record contract. Everyone who heard him knew right away that he was something very special. The problem was....he knew it too. :\
2) The band was certainly talented in their own right. But talent alone does not get you to the "next level" that you might be chasing. There is no doubt that one of the reasons QR got immediate attention was because of "that singer"... Geoff Tate was to metal was Steve Perry was to arena rock. We can banter about Dickinson and Halford, but Geoff was *at least* their equal (if not even more talented) when he was in his prime. I imagine it was that X factor that made the band overlook many personality flaws. Especially when you consider that they obviously shared a musical vision at the beginning (i.e....they all, including Geoff, wanted to make metal with a progressive "Rush-Pink Floyd" weirdness)
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Geoff really did have a voice of a lifetime and deserves to stand side by side with Halford, Bruce and Dio.
But he's always had a too cool for school demeanour which is lead singer 101. Dio gave Geoff one of the lead spots on that Hear n Aid song, so everyone knew the talent was there early on.
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I was just being a wise guy J-Dude, but you make all great points.
Geoff really did have a voice of a lifetime and deserves to stand side by side with Halford, Bruce and Dio.
I guess. He just doesn't have the longevity of greatness, IMO, that they have.
I feel like, if I may use a baseball analogy, that Tate was like Sandy Koufax. Short lived greatness amongst the much longer careers of the other greats.
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I don't want to turn this into a "let's debate the metal singers" thread, but while Tate was great in his prime, even at his best, he was no Rob Halford. Sorry, but he just wasn't.
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I don't want to turn this into a "let's debate the metal singers" thread, but while Tate was great in his prime, even at his best, he was no Rob Halford. Sorry, but he just wasn't.
Let's save that for The Singer Of The Day thread. Oh wait...um..
;D
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Such a brilliant EP. The reissue is obviously teh way to go with the inclusion of Prophecy and the Tokyo tracks.
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Such a brilliant EP. The reissue is obviously teh way to go with the inclusion of Prophecy and the Tokyo tracks.
Absolutely worth it for those Tokyo tracks!
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I don't want to turn this into a "let's debate the metal singers" thread, but while Tate was great in his prime, even at his best, he was no Rob Halford. Sorry, but he just wasn't.
I respect your opinion, but I'm not sure you'd get an unbiased majority to agree on that. If it turned into "fanbase vs. fanbase" Halford would win in a landslide. But if you took a large group of metal heads that did not have a clear preference for one band or the other, I'm betting the outcome would be so neck and neck so as to effectively be a tie.
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I don't want to turn this into a "let's debate the metal singers" thread, but while Tate was great in his prime, even at his best, he was no Rob Halford. Sorry, but he just wasn't.
I respect your opinion, but I'm not sure you'd get an unbiased majority to agree on that. If it turned into "fanbase vs. fanbase" Halford would win in a landslide. But if you took a large group of metal heads that did not have a clear preference for one band or the other, I'm betting the outcome would be so neck and neck so as to effectively be a tie.
There is no way to quantify that. It's easy to say that anyone who prefers Halford is more of a Priest fan and vice versa, but it's not alway that simple. I personally rank the bands about even overall. Both would be in the 20s if I had to rank them, with Priest probably being slightly higher thanks to longevity and more great songs, although I think Promised Land is better than any single album Priest ever did.
Besides, longevity as far as being a great singer counts for something. Halford was great for far longer than Tate was. Tate had, what, a great 15- year window at most?
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AT MOST.
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Why does it really matter?
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Internet disagreements always matter.
:biggrin:
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I'm only comparing "raw talent" in the prime of their career.
In my head (and I'm just spitballing here) take the four best albums from each (not based on the actual music, but vocal performance...though I don't imagine the lists would differ much) and then just compare vocal performances.
I personally feel that Geoff's vocal performance on Rage for Order easily surpasses anything Rob has ever done. Because we're not just looking at range, but also variations of style, dynamic, timbre, emotional quality...etc..etc.. Though, I agree that Rob had far more "home run" performances (easily double of Geoff's output, if not more) and certainly took care of his instrument longer.
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2) The band was certainly talented in their own right. But talent alone does not get you to the "next level" that you might be chasing. There is no doubt that one of the reasons QR got immediate attention was because of "that singer"... Geoff Tate was to metal was Steve Perry was to arena rock. We can banter about Dickinson and Halford, but Geoff was *at least* their equal (if not even more talented) when he was in his prime. I imagine it was that X factor that made the band overlook many personality flaws. Especially when you consider that they obviously shared a musical vision at the beginning (i.e....they all, including Geoff, wanted to make metal with a progressive "Rush-Pink Floyd" weirdness)
Getting way ahead of myself here, but this is the problem I have with what QR is currently up to. Say what you will about Geoff, but he was the visionary of the band. The other guys are talented, but without Geoff they would've been another footnote in what eventually became the progressive metal movement, maybe not even that much. Unfortunately, they ended up in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Either they could let Geoff continue to turn the band into an embarrassment, or they could hire a clone and chase past glory. You can replicate the voice, but not the vision.
As for Geoff's standing with the all time greats, he's up there with Halford for sure. I was never a huge fan of Halford's lower range, whereas Geoff had more conviction down there IMO. But unlike Halford and Dickinson, Geoff's voice really didn't age well. There's a recording of a song the three of them did together and he is obviously the weak link, despite Rob and Bruce being 20-30 years into their careers. To further drive that point:
In my head (and I'm just spitballing here) take the four best albums from each (not based on the actual music, but vocal performance...though I don't imagine the lists would differ much) and then just compare vocal performances.
This only highlights Geoff's shortcomings IMO. For Rob Halford, you could easily choose 4 albums from the 70s, 80s, or 90s and pit him against Geoff Tate. Same thing with Bruce Dickinson, except with the 80s, 90s, and 00s. Geoff has a much smaller window to choose from. Had he continued to improve as a vocalist, rather than focus on being an egomaniac, he could've reached those two easily. Take another perspective: Who's going to argue that the first four Priest albums or first four Maiden albums with Bruce are the respective singers' best moments?
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You're ignoring the fact that I specifically addressed that "scope of work" easily goes to Halford. In my example, I am attempting to throw that scope out the window for a moment and JUST compare performances. You reintroduced "scope of work" to underline Geoff's shortcomings....something that I had already acknowledged.
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Well it's hard to ignore scope when the four Judas Priest albums chosen are likely going to show much more diverse and developed singing than whichever four QR albums are chosen (which are probably going to be the first four for most people). Mine would be Painkiller, Screaming For Vengeance, Defenders Of the Faith, and Sad Wings. Tate's performance on the first four QR is comparable to Defenders, maybe Sad Wings. Doesn't come close to the other two IMO.
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I stand by my claim that Geoff's performance on RFO easily by itself is better than anything Halford ever did. After that, the next three could be a dead heat.
In any event...there is certainly room for the argument. I believe most people would say it was pretty damn close.
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I'm not sure how often to do each record, so I'll do The Warning maybe on Monday or Tuesday?
I try waiting a week. If the discussion dies down early I'll do an update. The in-betweens like live albums and stuff don't take as long.
Following btw.
Thanks Mosh. I'll do that then. Although I think I'll do The Warning on Wednesday, just because the EP is just that -- an EP, not a whole album. But from then forward, maybe a week makes sense unless it is something like a live album. :)
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Are we going to talk about the live concert included on some versions of the EP? It's an awesome recording.
They are the songs from Live in Tokyo. I planned on doing that after The Warning. :)
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In regard to the singer discussion, and trying to bring it back around to the EP, what Geoff did on the EP was jaw dropping for the same metalheads who listened to Dio, Maiden and Priest. Those fans were sitting there with their fist in the air, and saying how incredible Tate was. And that continued through Promised Land. So that's a 12-year stretch. That's saying something. Where Tate sits is up for debate (in another thread, I assume), but Tate's early high range, his overall timbre, and his emotive style were distinct. No one could do what he could do. Halford is the Metal God, but even he'd say Tate had a better range. I guarantee it. And while I love the Air Raid Siren and Dio, Tate blew them away, range-wise. Is one better than the other? That's all personal taste. But when the EP came out, people knew what they were hearing was something unlike they've heard before. Tate inspired a generation of metal singers, including Michael Kiske, Ray Alder, and many others.
As for the history between Tate and his bandmates, it all came down to the first time Tate sang with The Mob. According to friends who were there, they said there was that "buzz" in the room when everyone knew something was amazing (those of you who have gone to many concerts know that buzz I am talking about). The Mob was great, but it was Tate's voice that propelled them because it fit so well with what they were doing musically.
Tate didn't make Queensryche. Those songs were created by Chris and Michael. But Tate certainly got The Mob/Queensryche noticed. All the good singers do that. Would The Mob/Queensryche have been signed if Tate wasn't with them? Probably not. But then again, Tate's band, MYTH, likely wouldn't have gotten signed either. It was the combination of the right songs with that voice. They needed one another. Queensryche realized that, and Tate held out as long as he could, because he enjoyed playing with his friends Kelly Gray and Randy Gane in MYTH (can't really blame a guy for that). But once it was a sure thing that Queensryche was getting signed, Tate did what I think 99.9 percent of us would do -- he signed on with Queensryche and forged a writing partnership with DeGarmo and Wilton. The rest, is history...as we'll cover in the segment on The Warning, in a few days. ;) :tup
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Great thread. :clap: I have been hoping for this thread for quite some time, but knew I wasn't really the guy to do it.
Queensryche of the '80s and early '90s were the band that were ideal for my tastes. I just didn't know it at the time. I didn't discover them until LATE in the Mindcrime era, and my fandom wasn't cemented until Empire. But more on that later. Suffice it to say that, prior to Mindcrime, I just didn't notice them. Not even sure why. But I can't say I ever recall even hearing one of their songs. I'm sure I must have caught them here or there, but I just don't recall them being played much, and on that rare occasion where I did hear them, they just must not have clicked. To add to that, none of my friends in high school were into them. So I missed out.
So all that said, I discovered the EP after Empire. I had it on cassette, and I think I may have gotten a used copy at a pawn shop if I recall. That wouldn't surprise me, since that is the time when I was in catch-up mode on their back catalog. I had mixed feelings about the album. I liked the title song quite a bit. I didn't care for Blinded or Nightrider at the time (Nightrider still doesn't really do it for me, although Blinded became big for me after hearing the live version from the Tokyo show--but more on that later too). But I thought The Lady Wore Black was out of this world. All in all, I really liked the EP, but had a hard time really ranking it against other albums in their catalog, both because it is an EP rather than a full album, and because it is a raw debut. But there is certainly plenty to like about it. Coming to the album late, it is perhaps easier for me to put it into its historic context and see it as an album that was obviously influenced by early Maiden and Priest, while also showing off some incredible songwriting chops and experimentation that would be the band's hallmark moving forward. But again, in terms of the album itself and the time it came out, it wasn't even a blip on my radar until much later.
Good discussion on Tate from Samsara and jammindude. As far as the attitude, it would be a long time before I would really get enough of a glimpse of the real person to draw any meaningful conclusions of my own. But looking back, I can definitely see enough of the signs to agree with JD's assessment. But as far as the talent, this sums it up pretty well for me:
In regard to the singer discussion, and trying to bring it back around to the EP, what Geoff did on the EP was jaw dropping for the same metalheads who listened to Dio, Maiden and Priest. Those fans were sitting there with their fist in the air, and saying how incredible Tate was. And that continued through Promised Land. So that's a 12-year stretch. That's saying something. Where Tate sits is up for debate (in another thread, I assume), but Tate's early high range, his overall timbre, and his emotive style were distinct. No one could do what he could do. Halford is the Metal God, but even he'd say Tate had a better range. I guarantee it. And while I love the Air Raid Siren and Dio, Tate blew them away, range-wise. Is one better than the other? That's all personal taste. But when the EP came out, people knew what they were hearing was something unlike they've heard before. Tate inspired a generation of metal singers, including Michael Kiske, Ray Alder, and many others.
Agreed with all of that, including the take on what Halford would likely say. I think that's probably dead on. And Halford, from what relatively little I have seen/heard from him through the years, is always one to give others their due. He has done that with a number of bands through the years. If he likes something and thinks it is worthy of high praise, he doesn't hesitate to say so.
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Personal anecdote regarding the EP -- I didn't like it when I first heard it. I got into Queensryche during summer 1987. Post-Rage, but pre-Mindcrime. I didn't get around to getting the EP until, honestly, after Empire came out. By that time, being enthralled with Mindcrime, Rage, and Empire, I just thought the EP was...inferior, I guess, from a sound perspective. And I guess it was, thinking objectively. I didn't use this term at the time, as a kid, but looking at it now, the EP is certainly less mature than Rage, Mindcrime and Empire, which contributed to how I felt about it.
It wasn't until Empire had been out a while that I really picked up a fondness for the EP. My first exposure to EP songs was Live in Tokyo, as a rental from the local video store probably in late 1988. I remember not liking it at all, like it wasn't the same band who did Mindcrime. :lol :lol
Silly reaction looking back on it now, and obviously, my tune changed over the next year or so about it. But that was my first reaction to EP/The Warning songs.
Speaking of The Warning. That's up next. While not quite a week has past, there isn't as much to talk about regarding the EP, so I'll post The Warning tomorrow, and then give that a full week before moving on.
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Well, your reaction to the EP mirrors my reaction to The Warning, so... :dunno:
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Back in high school QR were one of my favorite bands. I first bought the Promised Land album. I was of course familiar with the Empire and Mindcrime hits, but timing-wise really dug Disconnected and made the purchase on a whim.
Quickly bought their entire catalog after that. But.... For whatever reason, I never got into the EP or even The Warning. Every album after that (well, at least for a while) I really loved. Through Hear in the now Frontier, which I LOVED. Q2K was highly anticipated but may be the biggest ever album disappointment for me (probably because I loved HITNF so much).
I don't want to go on a long tangent as the discussion is currently on the EP - I can only name one song from it by memory "The Lady Wore Black" (?) but even that song I can only picture the main chorus line. I started listening to rock/metal in the mid nineties so I can't really make much in the way of comparisons to other stuff that was coming out the same time as the EP.
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My first introduction to Queenryche was the 2000 Greatest Hits record, around the time that I was really starting to discover progressive and power metal. Up until 1999/2000, my view of metal was still largely stuck in the 70's and 80's, dominated by the likes of Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Ozzy, Dio, Scorpions and many, many "hair bands". Even thrash metal bands like like Metallica and Megadeth were still largely a novelty to me. When I first began to hear of bands like Dream Theater, Symphony X, Stratovarius, Rhapsody and Savatage, something about those particular flavors of metal resonated with me deeply, and I began to search out as many similar bands as I could find.
It didn't take long for the name "Queensryche" to cross my path. I was told that they had been a big influence on Dream Theater, so naturally I dove right in. However, I was also told that their most recent material "sucked", and that nothing after Empire was worth listening to. So to hedge my bets, the first album of theirs I checked out was a compilation that spanned most of their discography up to that point in time.
Thus, it was perhaps appropriate that the first song I heard was "Queen of the Reich", and I was hooked from the opening note. Here was a band that was very strongly rooted in the classic metal upon which I had been raised, but there was something in their sound, a certain regal majesty, that seemed to presage the progressive and power metal I had just discovered. I would much later realize that it was Queensryche, along side Fates Warning and Savatage, that were largely responsible for bridging the gap between classic metal and progressive metal. I'm not going to argue here over whether or not Queensryche should be properly considered progressive metal in the strictest sense, but I think it is undeniable that much of what they did in the 80's and early 90's set the stage for the prog-metal bands that followed in their footsteps.
Of course, you may not even notice it from just listening to the '82 EP. The band was raw and hungry, and were essentially just making an american version of NWOBHM. There really isn't much progressiveness on the EP, other then perhaps some 70's influences on "The Lady Wore Black". Songs like "Queen of the Reich" and "Nightrider" are about as purely classic metal as music can get. The sweeping landscapes of Operation: Mindcrime and Empire were still far off into the future. But even at such an embryonic stage in their development, Queensryche seemed to have a maturity and grandeur to them that eluded their contemporaries, and there were strong hints at future greatness from the very beginning. It is little wonder indeed why just these four songs made such an impact in the metal underground in 1982, and it isn't just because of Geoff's soaring vocals or Whip and DeGarmo's blistering guitar work. While the talents of the band-members were obviously impressive, it was the quality of the compositions that really made Queensryche's debut something special.
Speaking of which, I've always been amazed it took so long for "Prophecy" to receive a proper release. Easily one of my favorite tracks by the band, it captures perfectly that balance between youthful ambition and songwriting mastery that made the EP so unique among new bands at the time. It rightly deserves to be placed in the same company with such greats as "Queen of the Reich" and "The Lady Wore Black."
Not many bands can say their hit the ground running as well as Queensryche. Even fewer can say their earliest music was also some of their best without devaluing their later works. But for Queensryche, that would not be an issue. The excellence of their debut EP would stand the test of time, while simultaneously in no way diminishing the awesome quality of what was to follow.
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Dark Master just reminded me....
This version of The Prophecy was recorded during the Rage For Order sessions, and I'm very surprised the band chose to include it on the re-release of the EP. Obviously they prefer this version.
The first time I heard The Prophecy was a much more raw version recorded during (I believe) the Warning sessions, which only ever appeared on the soundtrack for "The Decline of Western Civilization Part 2: The Metal Years"....not even sure it's still in print. I had it on cassette.
I personally would have liked for both versions to get an official release. We have alternate versions of other songs, why not Prophecy?
EDIT - For the record, I actually prefer the rawer version. But it might all depend on which version you heard first.
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I won't jump the gun here too much, except to say that I listened to Rage for Order to and from work today in the car...and it was awesome. :hat
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I'm in the same boat as Dark Master that I got into Queensryche with the Greatest Hits in 2000. I had known Silent Lucidity beforehand, but that was basically it. I had heard that they released some outstanding material in the past, but were currently releasing subpar music. I figured that the greatest hits would be a good starting point as it focused on their earlier songs.
I bought it and put it on and basically did a slow turn towards the cd player with my jaw dropped as Queen of the Reich was blasting. I was officially won over.
But Queensryche is such a diverse band that I can easily see someone loving one album from them, but then disliking another (and I'm just talking about the first six albums, the top ones). I'm sure there were thousands of new fans during the Empire era that went out and collected their earlier albums and were dumbfounded with the EP. I'm sure they either found it too heavy or thought it didn't sound anything like they were expecting.
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So IN!.
So, no-one's gonna talk about the video for 'Queen of the Ryche', right? I must have seen that thing somewhere during the late eighties on MTV's Headbanger's Ball a dozen or so times. If you haven't seen it yet, look it up, its so cheesy, you wont ever forget it. But the sounds. The song!!! Like Jammindude said, that was like 'ok, that's it, sold'.
I really can't say when I hard the ep exactly, if it was before or after RFO and Mindcrime, but I remember buying it and putting it on and rockin the F out. And that voice. There really wasn't anything like it out there, as much as a Dickinson, Dio and Halfort fan I was. This was something else. As an aspiring rock-singer (although I probably didn't know that at the time) I could actually sing along for a lot of the parts, but that really hig notes? No way man. No way in Hell! :omg:
Not getting ahead of the thread, but I actually heard the titletrack for Operation Mindcrime played on Dutch radio, before the album was released. They were mixing it in the Wisseloord Studio's and had brought a track with them for the radio-interview. Needless to say I HAD to buy that album, the day it was released. Oh, and for all the hate for 'The Warning', I never hated it at all. I thought it was a great expansion of their sound. Anyway, on with the discussion! :hefdaddy
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So, no-one's gonna talk about the video for 'Queen of the Ryche', right? I must have seen that thing somewhere during the late eighties on MTV's Headbanger's Ball a dozen or so times. If you haven't seen it yet, look it up, its so cheesy, you wont ever forget it.
:lol Yeah, cheesy. But still nothing compared to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFVFzUJ10oQ
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So, no-one's gonna talk about the video for 'Queen of the Ryche', right? I must have seen that thing somewhere during the late eighties on MTV's Headbanger's Ball a dozen or so times. If you haven't seen it yet, look it up, its so cheesy, you wont ever forget it.
:lol Yeah, cheesy. But still nothing compared to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFVFzUJ10oQ
C'mon now, bosk. It was all the rage at the time. :tup You know you have a similar outfit to Tate in the closet.
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In the closet? Shoot, I'm wearing it right now! :2metal:
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So, no-one's gonna talk about the video for 'Queen of the Ryche', right? I must have seen that thing somewhere during the late eighties on MTV's Headbanger's Ball a dozen or so times. If you haven't seen it yet, look it up, its so cheesy, you wont ever forget it. But the sounds. The song!!! Like Jammindude said, that was like 'ok, that's it, sold'.
we all owe a debt of gratitude to the five freedom fighters for saving us from the evil queen.
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The Warning (1984/2003)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51eYl4S-sJL._AC_US218_.jpg)
Lineup:
Geoff Tate – Vocals
Chris DeGarmo – Guitar/Vocals
Michael Wilton – Guitar
Eddie Jackson – Bass
Scott Rockenfield – Drums
After touring concluded for the EP in late 1983, Queensr˙che set to work on finalizing the songs they had written and played on tour that would be for The Warning. Some of those tunes included “Before the Storm,” “Child of Fire,” “Roads to Madness,” and what would be the title track, “Warning.”
Unlike the EP, however, which was mostly written before Tate was in the band, The Warning was a full-on collaboration, with DeGarmo, Tate, and Wilton being the main songwriters. As a result, the songs began to morph a bit from the band's more NWOBHM sound, to a fusion of metal and progressive rock that Queensryche (along with contemporaries Savatage and Fates Warning, and later, Dream Theater) would later be credited for helping establish American progressive metal. Musically, the band really gelled, as Wilton's heavier riffs were put into more complex arrangements by DeGarmo, with an emphasis on creating chord progressions that weren't “standard” of the day. Queensr˙che embraced mood and tempo changes frequently on the album, particularly on the nearly 10-minute opus “Roads to Madness,” but also on more succinct songs such as “Child of Fire.” In addition to showcasing Tate vocally, it helped Eddie Jackson and Scott Rockenfield develop their own distinct sound, both as a rhythm section, and as individual players.
Lyrically, The Warning was very much from its day, focusing on topics such as artificial intelligence and nuclear fallout, with a bit of fantasy thrown in for good measure. Tate's influence in the lyrical department was noticeable. Between he and DeGarmo, the band shifted toward a more serious tone on The Warning that would continue through much of the band's career, ultimately earning them the moniker "The Thinking Man's Metal Band" (which the band despised, although they acknowledged it was meant as a compliment). Tate also recycled song titles from old MYTH songs, bringing in the titles “Take Hold of the Flame,” and “Before the Storm.”
Instead of recording in Seattle, Queensr˙che headed to London, where they would lay down tracks at various studios (including Abbey Road) with noted Pink Floyd producer James Guthrie. The band was visited by a number of famous British musicians, but of note to DeGarmo was Jimmy Page who popped in for a listen. From demo to final version, the songs comprising The Warning didn't change a ton, except for “NM 156.” That tune morphed from a completely different demo called “Waiting for the Kill.” Of note in the latter song was the long harmonized guitar solo by DeGarmo and Wilton (written by Wilton). The band loved the solo, but wasn't as high on the song. So they cut the solo out and wrote “NM 156,” and put the solo there. The direction of “NM 156” was credited by Tate in future interviews as the genesis of what Queensr˙che ultimately become as songwriters, as it featured time changes and subtle complexities that became the band's musical hallmark.
Queensryche also starts its long relationship with the late Michael Kamen on The Warning, who provided orchestration for the album. Kamen would later be in the spotlight for his work on "Silent Lucidity."
Fun fact: “Deliverance” is the only traditional song (vocals/music that isn't a segue) in Queensr˙che's catalog that Michael Wilton has solely composed (lyrics/music).
Once recording was completed in Summer 1984, the band turned the record over to EMI, who promptly had Val Garay remix and re-sequence it to what was ultimately released and what everyone is generally familiar with. The original version of The Warning, however, had “NM 156” as the lead song, so that the closer, “Roads to Madness” would end on the same note as “NM 156” began on, giving the album a circular feel. In addition, “No Sanctuary” and “Deliverance” were flip-flopped, and “Warning” was supposed to come before “Roads to Madness.” The label's rationale behind the re-sequence was to have the lead single, “Warning,” lead-off the album.
The mix was changed so that the drums were much higher and guitars were lower, giving The Warning a “flat” or “dead” sound to a degree. While the style was very much popular at the time, it was contrary to what Queensr˙che had intended with the intricate guitar work and vocals present on the record. Reports from the band's crew during those years, and later, the band itself, revealed that they were “crushed” that the label had interfered with the album. While the album was remastered in 2003, unfortunately, no re-mixing or re-sequencing to what was originally intended was done, despite the flaws. A few live cuts were included as bonus tracks with new liner notes.
You can see the approved original sequence here on an old cassette tape of the final initial mix from the recording sessions – https://www.anybodylistening.net/thewarning.html (scroll down).
The changes made to The Warning were all done while the band was on the road in Japan in August 1984 (see the forthcoming/next entry, Live in Tokyo), leaving Queensryche no time to have it re-adjusted. Originally slated for a Spring 1984 release (as per Tate in a live show from Montreal in 1983), The Warning was actually released on Sept. 7, 1984. In addition to “Warning,” “Take Hold of the Flame” was also a single and quite popular in Japan.
Upon returning from Japan, Queensr˙che embarked on its first world tour, opening for acts such as DIO, KISS and Iron Maiden, sprinkling in a few headline dates along the way. The main touring for The Warning spanned nearly seven months, concluding in earnest in early March 1985. However, Queensr˙che played a few gigs after that, including a short headline run in mid-July 1985 that featured the performance of an early demo of “Neue Regel,” which would appear on their next album, Rage for Order – https://www.anybodylistening.net/7-12-85.html (setlist). As an aside, setlists for the tour (all the original lineup's tours) can be accessed at https://www.anybodylistening.net/tourdates.html.
Samsara's top-3 tracks from The Warning: “NM 156,” “Roads to Madness,” “Take Hold of the Flame.”
Next up...Live in Tokyo...
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I'm not sure when I finally bought the EP but it was well into QR's career, maybe some time after Tribe was released. However, by that time I was already familiar with Queen Of The Reich, Nightrider, The Lady Wore Black and Prophecy from Building Empires (IIRC).
Queen Of The Reich remains a barnstormer of a song in spite of the silly lyrics, though Todd La Torre has really made that song his own as it works better with more grit to the vocals, The Lady Wore Black is a classic and Prophecy (albeit not on the original release...) is a really good song too.
Nightrider and Blinded are a little bit typically embryonic for a band just starting out, but are still solid efforts.
Tate's vocals were pretty quacky at the time, and it would be a couple more releases yet before that tendency largely went away, but all in all it was a hell of a debut EP for a young band on a tight budget back then.
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The story of what was done to change the band's vision of The Warning is, sadly, an all-too-common theme from that timeframe. It's too bad, because I think both the mix and sequence take away from the album.
For me, because I discovered Queensryche late, this album came at an odd time. I had Mindcrime and Empire, and I think The Warning was the next one I got (either that or the EP--they were fairly close in time). I didn't immediately care for it much. A friend and I used to joke that it felt like Tate felt the need to prove himself by constantly going for that "one high note" all over the album. We would listen to a song and go, "wait for it...WAIT for it...boom!" and erupt in laughter. But it was all just in fun. I didn't hate the album. It just didn't grab me until much later as I began to finally differentiate the tracks on it and appreciate the songs individually. Even when I saw them on the Building Empires tour, I wasn't familiar with the early material and didn't recognize songs like Roads To Madness and Take Hold when they played them. But later, those would become two of my favorite songs from them. NM156 was another that began to stand out early.
As years passed, in the early '90s once I was back home from my military jaunt, there was a music store near me that sold some silver disc bootlegs labeled as "imports." :lol I picked up a copy of an MTV Unplugged bootleg that had a bunch of live songs that I later learned were from, I believe, Live in Tokyo. That bootleg, with its better quality live versions of some of the deeper cuts from The Warning (as well as a few from the EP) made me revisit and appreciate some of those other songs as well. So, really, my journey to really learning to appreciate The Warning took several years, even though I loved the band to death prior to that, just on the strength of Mindcrime and Empire alone, initially. In a way, I'm glad I didn't hear The Warning at the time it came out. I suspect that my reaction to it would have been similar to my initial reaction when I eventually did hear it, but that without the strength of Mindcrime and Empire to hold my interest, I may have mistakenly written the band off and not revisited them. I have derived a LOT of enjoyment from Queensryche through the years (especially from 1990 to 1998), so I'm glad that didn't happen.
My journey to appreciate The Warning in a way mirrors a lot of my experiences with the DeGarmo-era Queensryche albums. As with all of the albums other than Empire, I was not all that enthusiastic upon first listen and wasn't really sure whether I liked them or not. But as I dug in, over the long haul, they became some of my favorites as I discovered the depth and rich textures this band was able to weave into their songs. The Warning wasn't as deep as the albums that followed. But the seeds were clearly there.
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"NM156" could quite possibly be Queensryche's coolest tune; it might be a toss up between that and "The Whisper".
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Believe it or not The Warning is probably my favorite QR album (Sometimes it alternates with Mindcrime.)
I love the fusion of 80s heavy metal with a slightly more progressive edge, sure some of their later albums are more formed and polished, but this one has a little more of a rougher edge that I find highly appealing. Another thing that puts this album up there for me is that it just has so many songs that are just damn GOOD such as: En Force, NM156, Roads to Madness, Take Hold, the title track, etc. Later albums may be more well put together but they don't quite have the same density of songs I love on them.
What I find interesting however, is that this album borrows a log of stylistic elements from bands like Priest and Maiden, yet those are two bands I've never exactly been "in love" with, yet I really like this album. Perhaps its the more intricate/progressive songwriting. Plus I find that there are a lot of textural/atmospheric elements found on this album that I never quite found in those bands.
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Believe it or not The Warning is probably my favorite QR album (Sometimes it alternates with Mindcrime.)
I'm on the other end of the spectrum - never been a fan of The Warning, up to this day. Can't say I've put much effort to listen to it for years, but when I first got it, it never did much for me in the first place. For a long time, the only songs I really liked were the title track and THotF, although over the years I came to appreciate NM156 and Roads to Madness; the rest still does little for me even now.
I'm not sure why this is, if it's just me or perhaps the order in which I got into them. My intro to QR was hearing Eyes of a Stranger played regularly on the radio in 1988. A buddy of mine had the hots for a girl who happened to have O:M, which she lent to me and got me into the band. Within a year of that time, I was working at a garage and one of my co-workers had RFO and the debut EP, which expanded my fandom of the band. RFO remains my favorite album of their's. Can't remember when I finally heard The Warning - if it was before or after Empire came out (I still remember seeing the promo display in the record store windows when Empire was released), but in any case, it was a disappointment for me. I think because it didn't click with me then, I never paid much attention to it afterward seeing as they had plenty of other albums for me to enjoy, as well as DT's WDaDU and other bands I was getting into around the same time. Ah well...
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I like The Warning, but I don't love it. I like everything on it, but the only songs I really, really like or love are En Force, NM 156 and Before the Storm, proving again that I tend to really like when QR gets a little weird. No Sanctuary is one I also like quite a bit.
On the flip side, Take Hold of the Flame sounds like an attempt to write an anthemic metal tune, but it falls kinda flat. Not a bad song, but not really notable.
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OK..I LOVE Warning. Love it, and it's one of my favorite albums of all time. Love it. I said that, right?
I know Brian has talked about the track sequence before. To me, the sequence it was released works perfectly.
The Title Track is a great opener. Totally sets the tone and picks up where the EP left off. En Force follows and is a bit more refined.
But then the album run of runs begins.
Deliverance-No Sanctuary-NM156 might be my all time three song run on any album. Seriously. Deliverance is my all time favorite "air drumming" song of all time. Just an incredible troika (fancy word!)!
Take Hold Of the Flame stands up, and I probably like it more today than when I did back then. Before The Storm is probably my least favorite track here and Child Of Fire is sneaky good.
But Roads To Madness is easily my all time favorite QR track. Simply amazing.
I got a detention in 10th grade because I had a Kerrang tucked into my Religion text book, and my teacher caught me reading the Warning Review. KKKKK!
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I've told my story about this album in part on the forum in the past, so I hope that nobody minds me sounding like a broken record.
At the time that I discovered this album I was still quite young. I was 11 years old at the time that it was released. My musical tastes basically encompassed bands like Kiss, Van Halen and Motley Crue. I had an older brother that I idolized as most younger brothers do, and I would often trail behind him as I'm sure is a normal thing for a little brother to do. Sometime in the winter of 84/85 I began to notice a very different sounding band coming from the stereo in his room. I often annoyed the living shit out of him, so I was barred from entering his room, but the new sound captivated me. I would begin hanging around close to his room each evening waiting to hear this new music. I didn't even know the name of the band, and it didn't really matter at that point. All I knew was that what I was hearing was completely different than everything that I liked up to that point in my short life.
The Warning became the soundtrack for that winter and into the coming spring. We were both hooked through the bag, and listened to the album daily for several months. I remember finally asking him what the name of the band was, and in my juvenile mind thinking that it was the most exotic thing that I had ever seen.
The Warning changed me and my musical tastes forever. This is the album that helped mature my musical tastes, and would allow me to branch out to bands like Iron Maiden. Those were also my first steps towards discovering any form of progressive music. This album is also the standard bearer for the flow of songs on all other albums that I would discover later in life. I still think of albums as having two sides, and the run of songs from THotF to Roads to Madness is the gold standard in my mind. I realize that the album had a different intended track listing, but in this case I'm happy that the record company changed it.
The Warning remains one of my favorite albums of all time. I realize that most fans of the band dismiss it in favor of one of the albums that were to come in the next decade, but I still feel the effects of this album every time that I listen to music. For me music is as essential to life as oxygen and water, so that's a huge thing for me.
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My intro to QR was rather late, a result of the explosion of Silent Lucidity - power ballads were all the rage in the late 80s and very early 90s. No respectable album could be released without 1-3 of them. I had JUST missed them coming through Toronto with LiveCrime, and I will never get over that. I quickly went through their back catalog, but O:M left such a mark on me at the time, I pretty much shelved all the others, and really didn't give the EP or The Warning it's fair due for many many years. I can appreciate them for what they are, but in the grand scheme of things in the QR discography, they contain too much hit-and-miss to get a lot of regular airtime with me (which is more than can be said for the 15 years of their albums that were all "miss" :lol). Some great tunes, some good tunes, some mediocre tunes - for me, it's about 1/3-1/3-1/3.
I'm not sure how often to do each record, so I'll do The Warning maybe on Monday or Tuesday?
Thanks for the ..um..warning.
:neverusethis:
(https://replygif.net/i/1081.gif)
This will be awesome!!!
Anyway, following big time as Brian definitely knows his Queensryche
Hell yeah. Looking forward to learning a lot through this thread.
@ PowerSlave ... cool story bro (sincere)
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I've told my story about this album in part on the forum in the past, so I hope that nobody minds me sounding like a broken record.
At the time that I discovered this album I was still quite young. I was 11 years old at the time that it was released. My musical tastes basically encompassed bands like Kiss, Van Halen and Motley Crue. I had an older brother that I idolized as most younger brothers do, and I would often trail behind him as I'm sure is a normal thing for a little brother to do. Sometime in the winter of 84/85 I began to notice a very different sounding band coming from the stereo in his room. I often annoyed the living shit out of him, so I was barred from entering his room, but the new sound captivated me. I would begin hanging around close to his room each evening waiting to hear this new music. I didn't even know the name of the band, and it didn't really matter at that point. All I knew was that what I was hearing was completely different than everything that I liked up to that point in my short life.
The Warning became the soundtrack for that winter and into the coming spring. We were both hooked through the bag, and listened to the album daily for several months. I remember finally asking him what the name of the band was, and in my juvenile mind thinking that it was the most exotic thing that I had ever seen.
The Warning changed me and my musical tastes forever. This is the album that helped mature my musical tastes, and would allow me to branch out to bands like Iron Maiden. Those were also my first steps towards discovering any form of progressive music. This album is also the standard bearer for the flow of songs on all other albums that I would discover later in life. I still think of albums as having two sides, and the run of songs from THotF to Roads to Madness is the gold standard in my mind. I realize that the album had a different intended track listing, but in this case I'm happy that the record company changed it.
The Warning remains one of my favorite albums of all time. I realize that most fans of the band dismiss it in favor of one of the albums that were to come in the next decade, but I still feel the effects of this album every time that I listen to music. For me music is as essential to life as oxygen and water, so that's a huge thing for me.
Awesome read P-Slave. Thanks for sharing.
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Yep, cool post, PowerSlave (except for the part about liking Kiss :lol). :tup :tup
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Yep, cool post, PowerSlave (except for the part about liking Kiss :lol). :tup :tup
Youth is my excuse!!! :lol
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So I was going to see Kiss on the Anilmalize tour. I knew nothing of the opening band. When Queensryche came out I was immediately blown away.
Drummer played like Neil Peart. Lead singer sang like a metal opera singer. The dual guitars we're amazing. I immediately went out the next day and got The Warning. I was hooked.
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So I was going to see Kiss on the Anilmalize tour. I knew nothing of the opening band. When Queensryche came out I was immediately blown away.
Drummer played like Neil Peart. Lead singer sang like a metal opera singer. The dual guitars we're amazing. I immediately went out the next day and got The Warning. I was hooked.
Such epic fail in the first sentence... :lol :lol
Yep, cool post, PowerSlave (except for the part about liking Kiss :lol). :tup :tup
Youth is my excuse!!! :lol
A forgivable one. :tup :tup
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You shut your whore mouth Kev. :lol
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Hey now, you're the one who said you wanted to go to a Kiss concert. :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
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8 Kiss concerts bub! :lol
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As I've said, my first exposure to QR was before they were even signed. (though, they were signed very quickly. I never did own the independent release of the EP....but I've seen a few around these parts....almost bought one a couple of times)
By the time The Warning came out, I was already seeking out the heaviest things available at the time. (I was just a scant two months from discovering Ride the Lightning on a new release rack) So after the NWOBHM sound of the EP....The Warning was disappointing. The boys in the Ryche was correct in their disappointment of the production. It KILLED it. I did like some of it. Take Hold, obviously. NM156 was my absolute favorite. Roads to Madness I liked right away. No Sanctuary was pretty good for a ballad. Most of the rest of it just left me flat.
Time has been MUCH kinder to it, and now I'm able to look past the production (also, I'm no longer of the opinion that if it doesn't make me bang my head violently, it must suck). Take Hold is still a pretty good song, but it's so overplayed that it's gone down the list over the years.
Roads to Madness
NM 156
No Sanctuary
Before the Storm
Warning
Take Hold of the Flame
Child of the Fire
Deliverance
En Force
But it's actually all really good. I like it better than Empire....though I know that's a very unpopular opinion. More on that later. Suffice to say whenever any band takes a polished and radio friendly approach....I'm not a fan. Empire, Parallels, The Black Album....all three of these albums were "drop offs" from previous output by all three of the respective bands IMO.
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Great stories, and I can totally relate. I can easily understand that, in the light of what came after it, The Warning is being perceived as a let down. Production-wise, it certainly is.
But musically, its definetely not a let down for me. I absolutely loved almost all of it. Titletrack is a great intro to the album in my book. That entire run up untill NM 156 is indeed fantastic and I know some very mature and heavy dudes that STILL get teary-eyed up to this day when the intro of Take hold of the Flame starts playing. (Heck, I might even be one of them). I love singing along to 'Child of Fire'.
What I love about the album is that it takes you on a journey, if you let it. I love the diversity in styles. I instantly fell in love with Scott Rockenfield's playing style.
But never is that sense of being on a journey greater as with the album closer, 'Road to Madness'. It is just flawless, in my opinion. As I think of it, Queensryche really eased me into the whole 'prog-metal' genre, so when DT came along, I was ready for it. I only regret never having seen them live and probably never will.
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My first exposure to The Warning was being given the CD by a friend at University who'd bought it at the same time as Mindcrime and really didn't like it. It didn't really sit that well with me at the time either...
...and it's only since I found out that NM-156 should open the album, and upon realising that the end of Roads To Madness loops back into the start of NM-156 it's so obvious that was the intention I'm almost embarrassed I'd not noticed it before, that it all started to make a bit more sense. In my opinion, The Warning is a rubbish opener to the record (with Tate's quacking at its most egregious) and NM-156 completely interrupted the flow of the album when shoved into the middle of it. Now, NM-156 is one of my favourites off the record and I've not listened to the album in its released order since.
Roads To Madness is a wonderful song, Take Hold Of The Flame has probably been overplayed a bit but is still a great song. The rest of the album is solid, but I think part of my problem with The Warning (the album) is that Tate's in full bore melodramatic mode without quite having the music to sing over that really supported the histrionics... not to worry, that wouldn't be a problem on the next release!
I think The Warning is a band evolving from wearing their influences on their sleeves into a much more unique affair and as such it arguably takes a slight backward step from the promise of the EP, but it was probably a necessary step they needed to take.
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I’m late to this thread, didn’t find the time but here’s some random comments from my part.
I came to know Queensryche with Operation: Mindcrime. Followed them closely from then on and also went backwards in their discography. Actually QR was one of the few bands my younger sister introduced to me, normally it was the other way round.
Queensryche EP
Coming from Mindcrime and RFO and The Warning to this EP, it is more than a little bit rough but I like it for what it is. The songs are good if sometimes a little unpolished and Tate shows he has a gigantic range. Other than that I don’t find his vocals that amazing (that would come later) as others seem to do, he’s to shrill and sometimes to close to hysterical wailing.
Greatest singer of his era?
Geoff had talent but apart from Mindcrime and Empire which have phenomenal vocal performances, he’s not up there with the best imo. Controversial I guess, but as I said on the EP he’s more wailing than singing. He developed his voice on The Warning and RFO but still lacked some warmth on his voice, it was mostly his range that impressed me from the beginning and not necessarliy the sound of his voice. Then came Mindcrime and Empire and he was phenomenal on that two records, after that it’s all downhill, his voice began to crack on Promised Land and every effort after that was worse. He still has a characteristic voice, I give him that, but for a long time he had this nasal whining when singing live and he has lost most of his range.
For the be considered the best he had to have more longevity and less douchebaggery. But that’s just me.
Douchebag?
I don’t pretend to know Geoff from the beginning but at the end of the 80s/beginning of the 90s there were a lot of interviews in music magazines and on music television with him, and for me he came across as being arrogant and presumptuous. He just wasn’t a likeable guy from what I saw/read. So maybe he had it all in him from the beginning.
The Warning
Some early highlights on this one. Take Hold Of The Flame, Roads To Madness are great and the rest isn’t shabby either. But NM 156 takes the cake, that song is just phenomenal and shows the more progressive side that was to come. The machine voice, the odd rhythms, the soaring chorus, the twin guitar solo, everything is just great. One of my alltime favorite QR songs.
I don’t mind the altered track order and I didn’t know it at the time, but the meddling with the production was a big mistake. The production sounds dated and cheap.
But still a good effort for a “debut” longplaying record.
Anyway, great thread, great insights into the band (thanks Samsara) and the thoughts and stories of others. :metal :metal :metal
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But never is that sense of being on a journey greater as with the album closer, 'Road to Madness'. It is just flawless, in my opinion.
Yeah, I agree. That song has so much power and atmosphere. They really had an outstanding run of album-closing epics that had this similar epic kind of vibe for a long time, and Roads was the template. It really soars live (although I hated that they did abridged versions of it for so long rather than playing the entire thing).
As I think of it, Queensryche really eased me into the whole 'prog-metal' genre, so when DT came along, I was ready for it.
Yeah, that really describes my journey as well. To this day, I don't really consider them "prog-metal" and feel that label is a stretch when applied to them. But they definitely had elements that paved the way and provided a transition from much more straightforward songwriting to the more complexity-driven subgenre.
I only regret never having seen them live and probably never will.
You should check out the current lineup. Yeah, it's different. But this lineup really does do justice to the early material, even if it isn't the same vibe as when it was first played so many years ago. And they just put on a flat-out solid show. I honestly don't know how much longer the band will continue, so I would really make an effort to see this lineup if they come near you. I don't think you will be disappointed.
I think The Warning is a band evolving from wearing their influences on their sleeves into a much more unique affair and as such it arguably takes a slight backward step from the promise of the EP, but it was probably a necessary step they needed to take.
Interesting take. I'm not sure I consider it a "backward" step, but it is a step in a slightly different direction, that's for sure. But you see that with a LOT of bands between their debut and sophomore releases. I think part of that is just the natural evolution of "finding" themselves and their "true sound." Part of it is often either the label influence and the desire on the initial release to not sound TOO different than what is popular. And part of it is often just the HUGE jump in growth from being basically a garage or small club band and throwing together some tunes to being a working, touring band after that first album, and really sitting down to write some songs with that experience under one's belt. Even though a slightly different form of rock, I like to look at Cinderella as a good example. Their debut was very much the typical slick, polished standard '80s glam metal approach. But they took a pretty big departure on Long, Cold Winter and we saw that they really at their core wanted to have a VERY heavy blues and R&B influence, and that REALLY permeated their next three releases heavily. So it was definitely a matter of taking what worked on the first album, but bringing out more of their roots and influences, combining that with their newfound experience, and finding their "core sound" as part of all of that rolled together. I see a very similar evolution with Queensryche (and many others).
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For me, very much like my reaction to the EP songs upon first hearing them, I didn't quite like the tunes from The Warning when I heard them. But since that time, the record has grown on me so much that I probably put it second to Mindcrime. Sure, the production sucks (which is crazy considering the name James Guthrie attached to it, but makes sense when you find out the story behind Val Garay remixing it). But when I count how many songs I legitimately think are bad ass on the album, it's undeniable.
(my personal take)
All Time Classics - NM 156, Roads to Madness, Take Hold of the Flame
Excellent - No Sanctuary, En Force, Deliverance
Very Good - Child of Fire
Average to Filler - Warning, Before the Storm
>>>>That's seven out of nine that stand out above the "average" or "filler" line for me, personally. That's saying something.
I've been a huge broken record for years about the mix and track sequence (and that's an understatement). But I guess for me, I didn't like the record as much as I do now until I re-sequenced it. I always liked the tracks I put above, but The Warning simply wasn't a record I listened to often from front-to-back, and I'm an album guy, in terms of my listening habits. Years ago (gotta be more than a decade now), when I was told what the correct order was, the flow just blew me away, and I found myself just loving the record from a top-to-bottom experience. And if you mess around with the EQ a bit, you can get a decent enough sound. My opinion literally changed overnight after that.
I highly doubt it will ever be remixed and re-sequenced. I think that ship sailed when they had the opportunity in 2003 for the remaster. But man, how I'd love to hear that original cassette master. Wilton has his, as I am sure Chris does as well. But given what transpired in the band, I doubt a Tate-less Queensryche is going to do a project where really only one of the original band members would profit from (Wilton is the only one in current QR that is a songwriter on the record).
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(my personal take)
All Time Classics - NM 156, Roads to Madness, Take Hold of the Flame
Excellent - No Sanctuary, En Force, Deliverance
Very Good - Child of Fire
Average to Filler - Warning, Before the Storm
>>>>That's seven out of nine that stand out above the "average" or "filler" line for me, personally. That's saying something.
Wow, that's pretty much where I would put every song on the album as well. Dead on, for my tastes.
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I always dug most of the songs on the Warning, but it wasn't until the band started playing about half of the album in 2012, after changing singers, that I really started getting into songs like Child of Fire. I became a fan in the mid-late 90's, so the only songs I'd heard them play live were NM156 and Take Hold of the Flame.
Seeing them play some of these songs live after ignoring them for so many years was really special...including Prophecy. That is such a killer song.
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I remember when they pulled En Force and No Sanctuary out of mothballs for the 2001 fan club show in Seattle. It was pretty killer to finally hear them live, even with Kelly Gray on guitar instead of Chris. Before 2012, however, they just didn't play Warning or Child of Fire at all, since the Rage tour (I think then it was Warning -- Child of Fire had been last played, if memory serves, on the Warning tour).
The current lineup is sort of back to playing the hits again, but it was really cool to hear the old songs from The Warning in 2012 and 2013.
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I don't know if it makes sense, but now hearing Warning in the original sequence of tracks, it seems to me that this album has more in commom with RFO than before.
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I don't know if it makes sense, but now hearing Warning in the original sequence of tracks, it seems to me that this album has more in commom with RFO than before.
Listen to NM 156, and then Screaming in Digital. They two are related. Queensryche played them back to back in 1989, and then again (albeit shortened versions) in 1995. And Rage has a lyrical theme in which one part is technology. I'll mention it more in the writeup on RFO in the next week or so...
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Listen to NM 156, and then Screaming in Digital. They two are related. Queensryche played them back to back in 1989, and then again (albeit shortened versions) in 1995. And Rage has a lyrical theme in which one part is technology. I'll mention it more in the writeup on RFO in the next week or so...
I don't have the bootlegs here with me, and it has been awhile, but wasn't it basically a medley on the PL tour with NM156, Screaming, and Neue Regel? I seem to recall that, but my memory may not be 100% accurate on that.
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On PL, it went Screaming in Digital>NM 156 (medley), My Global Mind, Neue Regel (abridged - stops before solo), I Remember Now...
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Listen to NM 156, and then Screaming in Digital. They two are related. Queensryche played them back to back in 1989, and then again (albeit shortened versions) in 1995. And Rage has a lyrical theme in which one part is technology. I'll mention it more in the writeup on RFO in the next week or so...
I don't have the bootlegs here with me, and it has been awhile, but wasn't it basically a medley on the PL tour with NM156, Screaming, and Neue Regel? I seem to recall that, but my memory may not be 100% accurate on that.
I saw them at Wings stadium in Kalamazoo on the opening night of the US leg of that tour, and I believe it went SiD/NM156 into My Global Mind and Neue Regel.
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I don't know if it makes sense, but now hearing Warning in the original sequence of tracks, it seems to me that this album has more in commom with RFO than before.
Listen to NM 156, and then Screaming in Digital. They two are related. Queensryche played them back to back in 1989, and then again (albeit shortened versions) in 1995. And Rage has a lyrical theme in which one part is technology. I'll mention it more in the writeup on RFO in the next week or so...
Cool to Know :tup
But what I was trying to say, despite the lyrical content, is that I"m hearing more similarities musically between Warning and RFO than before. I don't know, maybe begginning the album with a song that it's the most like RFO style, it sets a different tone for the rest of the album.
By the way, this thread and the IM thread are really are teaching a lot I didn't know about these two bands. Thanks a lot, guys!
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There's definitely some prog sensibilities scattered throughout The Warning, especially on NM 156. Overall though, I think the album- and later also with Operation: Mindcrime- lends itself more to the metal side of things and isn't quite "prog metal" for me.
That being said, I definitely see Rage for Order as a thru-and-thru prog metal album, albeit a very different approach to the genre than as typically recognized. It's just too complex and experimental an album for me to deem it as "heavy metal with some prog moments here and there" like I can with The Warning or Operation: Mindcrime.
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Based on the Kerrang magazine review, I rushed out and bought The Warning as soon as it was released (I was still in college back then). As I intimated in my earlier post, I was a little disappointed by the polished production... it sounded all too clean, cold and clinical, relative to what we heard on the ep. Over time, however, I've grown to like the production, a lot. As for the songs themselves, I don't think there's a weak song on the album.
I always found it serendipitous that The Warning was released in 1984, because the album (and what Queensryche would go on to do as a band) evoked so much of the imagery that George Orwell injected into his novel, i.e. visions of a dystopian future filled with thoughtcrime, newspeak, Big Brother, etc. The Warning could be the soundtrack for a movie like The Hunger Games, and "The Flame" would be Katniss Everdeen.
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:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
That's a 5 Headbanger for the thread starter!
Back in the 80's I LOVED me some Ryche! I think it was '86 when someone gave me the Rage For Order cassette. Over all, I really liked it. At the time I was big into Maiden, Priest, Dio and Rush. RFO was really unique sounding to me and I then got a hold of the Tokyo video....WOW!!! I was floored! Everything about that video was awesome. The vocals, the guitars.. SR's bitchin drum kit with all the chains! Most of all, was the material itself. Most of it I had never heard and came to find out that a lot was from The Warning LP.
I bought The Warning, which was actually the 2nd Compact Disc I ever owned. #1 was Ride the Lightning :metal. I absolutely fell in love with The Warning. Not a bad or even mediocre song on the whole album. Yeah, the sound wasn't the greatest mix wise, but the material was so good I didn't really care. It was MUCH better than RFO to me. The dark apocalyptic feel, soaring vocals...man... just Incredible!! The one question I've always asked is.... Is this a concept album? If not, it is surely thematic. At the height of the cold war it just conjured up images to me of a Nuclear nightmare. Fantastic lyrics, especially with songs like Roads to Madness. This album to me is only eclipsed by Mindcrime, and will always be a truly special album to me.
Ranking -
Excellent
Roads to Madness
N M 156
En Force
Take Hold of the Flame
Great
Child of Fire
Before the Storm
No Sanctuary
Warning
Deliverance
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"NM156" could quite possibly be Queensryche's coolest tune; it might be a toss up between that and "The Whisper".
Yeah, I'm a big fan of both of those.
I loved the album but certainly struggled with the dull, lifeless production..
Roads to Madness is epic, as my kids would say.
I have burned a copy with the intended running order and I prefer it. It's weird if I hear it the normal way now.
A remix would do the album wonders though.
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So, after reading this thread, I went back and re-sequence The Warning to the original track order. It definitely does have a better flow to it that way. And, while I always thought the production sounded off (or awful), I never realized just how far down the guitars are in the mix. It's a shame. Having them more up front could certainly have given the album's sound some more balls.
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So, after reading this thread, I went back and re-sequence The Warning to the original track order. It definitely does have a better flow to it that way. And, while I always thought the production sounded off (or awful), I never realized just how far down the guitars are in the mix. It's a shame. Having them more up front could certainly have given the album's sound some more balls.
Obviously, I am very much in agreement. A lot of folks think it is fine the way it is, but it just makes more sense to me re-sequenced. If you screw around with the EQ, you can get the sound a little bit better, but in the end, not much we can do. I had always wondered how the guys who uploaded that "Justice for Jason" YouTube video, where And Justice for All is tweaked to move the bass higher in the mix...how did that do that? Can it be done with The Warning to move the guitars up? No idea.
Question for those following the thread -- do you want to wait a week for Live in Tokyo, or do you want me to post it this weekend, and then follow up with Rage on like Wednesday or Thursday? Or do you want me to keep it a week apart, regardless of the release?
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Personally, I think a studio album a week, with the other stuff in between, is probably a good pace. But I'm not fussed either way. Whatever you think is best.
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Personally, I think a studio album a week, with the other stuff in between, is probably a good pace. But I'm not fussed either way. Whatever you think is best.
For the most part, I agree. I think you need to play it as it goes Brian. I think the best time to post the next entry is whenever discussion starts to dwindle down. I would expect there to be a lot more discussion around O:M and Empire, so it might be longer than a week there.
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It will likely be crickets when he gets around to Dedicated to Chaos
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It will likely be crickets when he gets around to Dedicated to Chaos
Surprisingly, I think some of the stuff to say about the Tateryche era of the band is going to engage some people. Anyway, have a good weekend folks. Looking forward to reading the rest of the commentary about The Warning next week! I've got Live in Tokyo written, and working on Rage for Order...
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I had always wondered how the guys who uploaded that "Justice for Jason" YouTube video, where And Justice for All is tweaked to move the bass higher in the mix...how did that do that? Can it be done with The Warning to move the guitars up? No idea.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, the stem tracks (individual instrument tracks) of Blackened and/or other AJFA tracks were ripped from Guitar Hero or Rock Band, and the bass was bumped up or mixed in to the album version of the song(s). So unless there are Warning tracks that were also on Guitar Hero, Rock Band, etc. or the stem tracks are floating around out there somewhere, you won't be able to really do the same thing to boost the guitars.
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It will likely be crickets when he gets around to Dedicated to Chaos
Kade has already said all that ever needs to be said about that turd :lol
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It will likely be crickets when he gets around to Dedicated to Chaos
For Frequency Unknown, all Brian needs to do is link Kade's review. :lol
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It will likely be crickets when he gets around to Dedicated to Chaos
For Frequency Unknown, all Brian needs to do is link Kade's review. :lol
Both I've never listened to.
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It will likely be crickets when he gets around to Dedicated to Chaos
For Frequency Unknown, all Brian needs to do is link Kade's review. :lol
Whoops I mixed up my turd like QR albums. To be fair there are several post PL
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Personally, I think a studio album a week, with the other stuff in between, is probably a good pace. But I'm not fussed either way. Whatever you think is best.
For the most part, I agree. I think you need to play it as it goes Brian. I think the best time to post the next entry is whenever discussion starts to dwindle down. I would expect there to be a lot more discussion around O:M and Empire, so it might be longer than a week there.
This, for sure.
Also, I would say not to give much time to live albums. Studio albums are where the real discussion is good, and you don't want to slow the chatter down to a crawl this early in the game.
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I really love the warning and its one of my favorites. I love that over the top operatic singing, and the songs are cool and catchy. I just can't get enough. Take hold of the flame is utterly incredible.
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I really love the warning and its one of my favorites. I love that over the top operatic singing, and the songs are cool and catchy. I just can't get enough. Take hold of the flame is utterly incredible.
Yeah, it is firmly in my personal top-10 from them, for sure. I think Roads to Madness and NM 156 are a notch ahead, but Take Hold holds firm in that list for me.
Have you checked out the MYTH demo of the song? It is completely different except for the song title, but showcases some pretty incredible guitar work by Kelly Gray, and it is truly a progressive metal song. More progressive than the Queensryche version for sure.
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I had never heard it prior to going in search just now because of your post. Wow, that is VERY different. They don't even resemble the same song.
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I was ripping my CD's and realized I accidentally brought up Prophecy as if it were on the EP. My mistake. (though....the original CD release of the EP did contain this version of Prophecy as its only bonus track...thus my confusion)
Here is the demo version that was recorded during The Warning sessions, and was included on the Decline of Western Civilization Part 2: The Metal Years Official Soundtrack.
It is very raw. I probably only like this version because I had been cranking it in my car for over a year before I heard the cleaned up version recorded during RFO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIGpIK40NgE
EDIT - Obviously, the person who posted this video has the date wrong. This was recorded during the Warning sessions.
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That song should have been on the album in my opinion. It would have fit very well sandwiched somewhere in the middle of the "side 1" songs.
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I love The Warning. I picked it up on a whim after seeing the cover. It looked kinda cheap, but in a good way. I was familiar with Mindcrime but was interested in hearing more stuff in the vein of Queen of the Ryche. I got exactly what I wanted with this album. It was raw, heavy, but also progressive. Mindcrime is great, but this old stuff has a charm to it.
I had no idea about the sequencing and the mix. I don't really have a problem with either really. Nothing about the track order seemed off to me. The Warning is a great opener and En Force complements it quite well. No denying that NM 156 is a great song, but I'm not sure if it works as an opener, but maybe that's just because I'm so used to hearing the album how it was originally released.
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I had no idea about the sequencing and the mix. I don't really have a problem with either really. Nothing about the track order seemed off to me. The Warning is a great opener and En Force complements it quite well. No denying that NM 156 is a great song, but I'm not sure if it works as an opener, but maybe that's just because I'm so used to hearing the album how it was originally released.
I feel the same way. NM156 was a great closer to Side 1, and Take Hold was a great opener to Side 2.
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Live in Tokyo (1985) (2003 - audio)
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/qr-liveintokyo.jpg)
Vocals: Geoff Tate
Guitars/Vocals; Chris DeGarmo
Guitars/Vocals: Michael Wilton
Bass/Vocals: Eddie Jackson
Drums: Scott Rockenfield
Remember in the post about The Warning, where we talked about Queensryche completing the sessions for the album and heading to Japan? Those shows were captured for what would become the band's first live concert recording, Live in Tokyo. The dates were Aug. 4 and Aug. 5, 1984, at Nihon Seinen-kan in Tokyo. The band also performed Aug. 7, 1984, at Mainichi Hall in Osaka, Japan. It is unknown whether that show was recorded.
Not surprisingly, given the year, there is a huge lack of information on this release. It was put out officially on VHS, and later on laserdisc in Japan, and the video has been out-of-print ever since. While there are a bunch of pirated versions on DVD and even Blu-ray, for the most part, most of those were taken from the VHS release, which we'll discuss here.
Live in Tokyo captures Queensryche performing some of its first headline shows as a band (they did a couple on the EP tour). The staging is fairly primitive, with a big “Q” and “R” set up. Setlist-wise, the band performed the following:
NM 156
Prophecy
Deliverance
The Lady Wore Black
Warning
Before The Storm
No Sanctuary
Child Of Fire
Nightrider
En Force
Roads To Madness
Take Hold Of The Flame
Queen Of The Reich
See www.anybodylistening.net/8-4-84.html.
However, the tracklist for the release is the following:
Nightrider
Prophecy
Deliverance
Child of Fire
En Force
Blinded
The Lady Wore Black
Warning
Take Hold of the Flame
Queen of the Reich
Knowing that, when you watch the video, you can absolutely tell where the edits happen. The performance speaks for itself. It's not as tight as people have come to expect of Queensryche, but it really showcases the band's energy. There is some debate whether both shows in Tokyo or both were recorded, and what was used in the final video release. But other than that, not much else is known about the release.
The audio from Live in Tokyo was remastered and re-released in 2003 as an addition to the Queensryche EP. Unfortunately, it was just the Live in Tokyo tracks, and not the full show. But unless Capitol has the full video and audio recording and has a lucrative reason to put them out, it is highly unlikely in my opinion it will ever surface officially.
As an aside, I have both the Aug. 4, and Aug. 7 shows as bootlegs. At least on the audience recordings, there's nothing amiss with how the band performed the songs left off the Live in Tokyo release. However, that doesn't meant there wasn't something wrong with the pro-recorded audio/video, of course.
Next up...the mighty Rage for Order...
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Might I add:
It was shot on 16mm film, and was also released on Betamax :)
Also, the most likely reason for the video release only being 50 minutes, and not the full show: This was quite normal at the time, to do concert releases ~50 minutes in length.
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I know I'm late in this post for The Warning but QR FB has posted some rejected album art for The Warning recently
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/18952640_1074192582713893_231628032089544265_n.jpg?oh=59364f1f8c520993ef410cc9a6da6ba7&oe=59D6DF05)
Why Texas? I dunno.. why not?
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18813629_1069148919884926_4569564399440295327_n.jpg?oh=265a88cb66177242e146920f1ed4accd&oe=59E055B2)
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They more look like fan art done more recently, honestly. Glad they went with what they did, if those were actually choices. LOL.
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They more look like fan art done more recently, honestly. Glad they went with what they did, if those were actually choices. LOL.
Well they said "rejected album art" and such, otherwise yeah I'd think it might have been fan art.
https://www.facebook.com/QueensrycheOfficial/photos/a.183090515157442.43082.163601033773057/1074192582713893/?type=3
https://www.facebook.com/QueensrycheOfficial/photos/a.183090515157442.43082.163601033773057/1069148919884926/?type=3&theater
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Yeah, I saw it. Hard to judge 33 years later of course, but I think the right choice was made to pass on those. I am assuming those came from Michael Wilton, who sold his longtime house recently, and probably had those pieces in storage. I had heard there was alternate artwork, but never saw it because it was packed away. Cool that it surfaced finally. Thanks for sharing. :tup
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Hearing the EP's remaster edition, with all these live tracks, it's curious to notice that the way the Warning songs are mixed here are very similar the way that it was done in its studio versions, with the guitars somewhat low. It's curious because the band, like it was said in this discussion, made very clear that they didn't like the album mix at all.
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As mentioned in my post about The Warning, after I bought it in probably around early '92 or so, it sat largely unappreciated and rarely listened to for a long time. That wouldn't change until around '96 or so when I obtained an audio version of the Live In Tokyo set. Here's the scoop:
So, this is back in a time when you could walk into some record stores and they would have silver disk bootlegs. There was one such place near me where I stumbled upon this: https://www.discogs.com/Queensryche-Unplugged/release/3533481
Here is the set:
1 I Will Remember
2 The Killing Words
3 Della Brown
4 Silent Lucidity
5 The Lady Wore Black
6 Prophecy
7 Blinded
8 The Lady Wore Black
9 Queen Of The Reich
10 Deliverance
11 Child Of Fire
12 En Force
13 Warning
14 Take Hold Of The Flame
The first five songs are from the MTV Unplugged show. The rest are, I believe, from Live In Tokyo. By this time, I believe LiT was out of print and hard to find, so I had never seen/heard it prior to buying this bootleg. The performance blew me away. This is where I truly began to appreciate most of those EP and Warning tracks that I had previously ignored that hadn't grabbed me before. Part of it is the awesome production compared to the rather flat production of The Warning. Part of it is the live energy and aggression brought to these songs.
So, that's the story. The unfortunate part of the story is that the disk was stolen from my car in '98 or so (along with the others in my CD wallet). I found another copy on Ebay a few years later. I was disappointed when it arrived and was just a burned copy with B&W photocopied artwork. But at least I had the audio again. I'm gonna take a wild guess that the thieves that broke into my car weren't even Queensryche fans. I subsequently played out a fantasy sequence in my head of having caught the thieves in the act just as they were about to make off with my stuff and saying something like, "Yo, bro! If you're really that hard up for my stuff, fine. But I'm guessing you're not a fan of half the music in there, so gimme back some of the CDs and let's call it good, okay?" :lol
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Didn't know this was a video. I dig the audio version, it's a bit loose but still a lot of fun. Can't get enough of the early QR stuff.
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Didn't know this was a video. I dig the audio version, it's a bit loose but still a lot of fun. Can't get enough of the early QR stuff.
You should check out (if you haven't already), a publicly-available radio broadcast CD from them called STORMING DETROIT. It's from 1984 and is a headline show. The bootleg has been around for years, but some company apparently got the broadcast, cleaned it up a little and released it. It really showcases Queensryche's early metal years in all their glory.
I'm not covering it here, simply because it isn't an official release. However, you can buy it without a problem on Amazon, and it is the complete show (and very worth it).
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Didn't know this was a video. I dig the audio version, it's a bit loose but still a lot of fun. Can't get enough of the early QR stuff.
You should check out (if you haven't already), a publicly-available radio broadcast CD from them called STORMING DETROIT. It's from 1984 and is a headline show. The bootleg has been around for years, but some company apparently got the broadcast, cleaned it up a little and released it. It really showcases Queensryche's early metal years in all their glory.
I'm not covering it here, simply because it isn't an official release. However, you can buy it without a problem on Amazon, and it is the complete show (and very worth it).
I wouldn't say they cleaned it up. It sounds exactly like one of the copies that's been out there for years.
Another thing is that the FM radio broadcast of the Mindcrime-set in Amsterdam 1990, has also recently been released by a bootleg label - again, it sounds exactly the same as other copies that have been floating around for years.
Definitely avoid buying them people!
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Setzer, while I (and I'm sure, others as well) appreciate the commentary, it's not your job to challenge and nitpick every time someone posts. And when you do it repeatedly to the same poster, it begins to look like you are trolling that person, which will not be allowed here. So I would recommend scaling it back. It also isn't your job when someone makes a recommendation to insist that people do not buy whatever is being recommended. If you are against people spending money on bootlegs and feel they should only be traded not bought (and I'm not clear on whether that is your position), then I get it and that's cool. You are welcome to make your case. But please do it in such a way that, again, doesn't come across as you just singling out a particular person to challenge what he/she wants to post.
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Didn't know this was a video. I dig the audio version, it's a bit loose but still a lot of fun. Can't get enough of the early QR stuff.
You should check out (if you haven't already), a publicly-available radio broadcast CD from them called STORMING DETROIT. It's from 1984 and is a headline show. The bootleg has been around for years, but some company apparently got the broadcast, cleaned it up a little and released it. It really showcases Queensryche's early metal years in all their glory.
I'm not covering it here, simply because it isn't an official release. However, you can buy it without a problem on Amazon, and it is the complete show (and very worth it).
I wouldn't say they cleaned it up. It sounds exactly like one of the copies that's been out there for years.
Another thing is that the FM radio broadcast of the Mindcrime-set in Amsterdam 1990, has also recently been released by a bootleg label - again, it sounds exactly the same as other copies that have been floating around for years.
Definitely avoid buying them people!
Thank you bosk.
Setzer,
Please stop. People are allowed to buy what they want to buy. It is out there for public purchase on Amazon and in retail outlets. If the band wanted it stopped, it would do so. It is a live show that people who don't collect bootlegs probably have never had an opportunity to listen to, which is why I recommended it.
In addition, you are incorrect. It has been cleaned up some. A lot of the hiss (but not all) has been removed, making it a much better listen, which is another reason I suggested checking it out.
You may not personally like that, as you're another in the long line of fans who has a passion for live show collecting and trading. I admire that, and shared a similar passion up until about a decade ago. But this thread is to encourage exposure to Queensryche, not sit there and tell people not to check something out because of your personal principles on the issue. And I really would like to avoid that sort of clutter in the thread. Thanks.
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Thanks for the recommendation, Samsara. Having trouble finding that on the bootleg hubs. Is it offlimits now because another company released it? Dunno the legal grey areas there.
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Thanks for the recommendation, Samsara. Having trouble finding that on the bootleg hubs. Is it offlimits now because another company released it? Dunno the legal grey areas there.
Not sure. I don't really use stuff like DIME and the others any longer. I stopped downloading and collecting years ago. But it would make sense that it would be off limits on DIME, given what I remember from their policies. i sent you a PM with some details.
You'll love the show. Tate sounded AMAZING and they had such energy. I am assuming since this show was a one-off, when Tate thanks "HALLOWEEN" for opening for them, he meant HELLOWEEN -- but I'm not sure. It would have to be pre-Kiske if it was...
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Thanks for the recommendation, Samsara. Having trouble finding that on the bootleg hubs. Is it offlimits now because another company released it? Dunno the legal grey areas there.
Not sure. I don't really use stuff like DIME and the others any longer. I stopped downloading and collecting years ago. But it would make sense that it would be off limits on DIME, given what I remember from their policies. i sent you a PM with some details.
You'll love the show. Tate sounded AMAZING and they had such energy. I am assuming since this show was a one-off, when Tate thanks "HALLOWEEN" for opening for them, he meant HELLOWEEN -- but I'm not sure. It would have to be pre-Kiske if it was...
There was a band from the Detroit area in the 80's named Halloween. I remember seeing them come down to Columbus, Ohio and play a co-headlining gig with Chastain at the Alrosa Villa. I couldn't tell you what year it was, but it was in the late 80's. It might have been them?
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That sounds right. Helloween had just formed and probably weren't ready to tour America yet.
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Correct. It would've been Halloween.
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The Heavy Metal Horror Show- Halloween.
A lower budget band, but they were still pretty good. Victims of the Night was a decent album.
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Thanks for the recommendation, Samsara. Having trouble finding that on the bootleg hubs. Is it offlimits now because another company released it? Dunno the legal grey areas there.
It was removed from DIME because it had been inactive for too long. Someone did ask on the site if it should be taken down, but it wasn't because it's not an official release from the band :)
https://we.tl/nhf8p5Ve6s (https://we.tl/nhf8p5Ve6s)
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I had the vcr of Live in Tokyo but an ex cut it up along with a few others when she was really mad at me...
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:lol
Wow! Hit a guys where it hurts!
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:lol
Wow! Hit a guys where it hurts!
Indeed. To be fair to her, I deserved it :facepalm:
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I've never heard these live recordings, I'm not that keen on live records in general anymore. But maybe I will look up some of the mentioned bootlegs.
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Just saw this thread. I know very little of QR so I'll be following and listening at the same time.
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Rage for Order
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/rfo.jpg)
Vocals/Keys: Geoff Tate
Guitars/Vocals; Chris DeGarmo
Guitars/Vocals: Michael Wilton
Bass/Vocals: Eddie Jackson
Drums: Scott Rockenfield
Additional keyboards by Neil Kernon
I think it is safe to say that Rage for Order is where Queensr˙che got its most “progressive,” at least in the sense of how the word is defined today. Incorporating a number of time changes, keyboard work, use of samples, and experimental guitar work, Rage for Order ended up influencing bands of note in both the progressive and gothic subgenres of hard rock and metal.
Writing for Rage for Order commenced in 1985, shortly after the tour for The Warning concluded. In an interview with Neil Kernon about Rage for Order I conducted a few years ago, he said Queensr˙che knew the sound they wanted for the record from the very start – “cold, hard, and cruel.” While most of the material was written and arranged before Kernon got involved, he said pre-production took a while because the label wanted a record that had some legs for a radio campaign.
That could have created problems, given the band's blossoming progressive tendencies, but Kernon mediated between the band and label. He explained to Queensryche that not everything had to be boiled down to less than four minutes, but they also had to have a few that fit that mold and the label's expectations.
Mission accomplished.
The band bought into the idea, and Rage for Order ended up with a bunch of shorter cuts, without sacrificing the song in order to make it happen. Aggressive tracks such as “Walk in the Shadows,” “The Whisper,” and “Surgical Strike” clock in under four minutes, yet they maintain musical complexities that set them apart from some of the band's earlier work. In addition, some of the more “epic” songs on Rage for Order, such as “Neue Regel” and “London” are only slightly longer than the aggressive cuts, but contain a distinctly powerful and magestic vibe that make them feel longer than they really are.
The music on Rage for Order is rightly lauded by fans as complex and dark, with those progressive and gothic leanings shinging through. But it's the lyrical theme that really set the stage for Queensr˙che's ascension with Operation: Mindcrime a few years later. According to Tate, while not a concept album, Rage for Order has a three-tiered lyrical theme running through the songs: Personal, Political, and Technological. The album title is also a contradiction itself: Rage and Order.
For the sake of brevity, I won't go through each song and highlight how each contains pieces of the theme. But if you sit down with the lyrics, listen to the record, and pay attention to things, you'll easily spot all the references.
Of note, however, is “Screaming in Digital,” Kernon's favorite track on the record, and a song that is a conversation between an artificial intelligence (son) and the human (father) who created it. The song encapsulates what Rage for Order is all about, lyrically, and is consider by many to be sequel (some make an argument for prequel) to “NM 156” on The Warning. Queensr˙che also played the tracks back-to-back over the years, cementing that theory.
“Screaming in Digital” straddles all three themes on Rage for Order, and creates arguably the record's strongest statement, despite it being one of Rage's shortest cuts (3:39). According to Kernon, apparently when the band came up with the initial idea for it, it was even shorter, about 2:30. Kernon said he immediately heard the potential in the track and encouraged the band to flesh it out a bit so they could use it. The demo Queensr˙che recorded for it is actually the same length as the album version, a little less polished, and significantly creepier.
Queensr˙che, at the behest of EMI Records, also included a cover song on the record – Canadian songwriter Lisa Dal Bello's “Gonna Get Close to You.” According to Kernon, the band narrowed the choices to that tune, and Dal Bello's “Wait for an Answer,” and went with the former due to its darker vibe. Heart went on to record the latter a year or so later. “Gonna Get Close to You” ended up being one of the singles from Rage for Order, and the only video the band shot for the album.
The band also recorded “Scarborough Fair” from Simon & Garfunkel during this time period. The tune wouldn't appear on the album, but was resurrected as a b-side in 1990, appearing on the CD single for “Empire” in 1990. “Prophecy,” which was tagged onto later releases of the EP, was also recorded during the Rage for Order sessions.
There were a few leftover songs that were demoed by Queensryche for Rage for Order that have never seen a public release: The title track, “The Dream” and “From the Darkside.” The title track featured a very pre-Queensryche-like Geoff Tate vocal delivery. Geoff showed his penchant for rap/spoken type of vocal here. The tune was scrapped, but pretty much everything except the verses and chorus were resurrected as an instrumental (“Anarchy-X”) on Queensr˙che's next album, Operation: Mindcrime.
“The Dream” was only partially fleshed out, clocking in at just over 2:30. It has a big chorus, and probably could have been turned into a decent full tune on Rage for Order. It absolutely sounds like a song that could fit comfortably next to “The Whisper” or “Chemical Youth.”
“From the Darkside,” however, sounds like a fully completed tune, and has a length of just over five minutes. It has a bit of a MYTH (Tate's band prior to Queensr˙che) feel to it, and as a result, it is certainly one of the quirkier cuts Queensr˙che has ever done. The verses are more spoken-word from Tate, but it works in the context of the song, and the album's three-layered theme. The verses contain a pretty basic riff with an acoustic guitar underneath. The chorus is the title of the song, with “ohhhhh oh ohhhhh” repeated afterward, with no real instrumentation. The solo, however, really captures the dark mood of the song.
In my opinion, it is unfortunate that “From the Darkside” was never properly recorded. While it was certainly different from the rest of the songs on the record, and given the amount of mid-tempo and ballads on Rage for Order, it made sense not to move forward on this one, it really could have added to the depth of the album.
In regard to how the record was recorded, the drums for Rage for Order were captured in an office park in Bellevue, Wash., using a mobile recording truck (Le Mobile) from Montreal. Kernon had used the technique and the truck previously with Dokken and other bands. The idea was to get a “big, bashy” sound from the drums. Vocals and the other instruments were recorded in Vancouver, Canada, and Glendale, California.
Fun fact – Neil and the band recorded a ton of their own samples for the album, including squealing tires in a parking lot and some interesting vocals from Wilton. Check it out here – https://anybodylistening.net/3.html.
Release-wise, the cover art has always been an interesting conversation among fans. There are a few different versions. The original featured a “blue” ring on the cover with the words “Rage for Order.” Subsequent releases have seen the color change, from a marble black, to a flat black. The original blue one made it more difficult to see what was written, which was the reason for the change. The original “blue ring” vinyl is somewhat rare. But the most rare is the blue ring CD version of the record.
Check out the cover art here: https://anybodylistening.net/ragefororder.html (examples of vinyl and cassette)
In 2003, EMI remastered the Queensr˙che catalog, including Rage for Order. I don't recommend it to audiophiles, because it was redlined (as were all the 2003 reissues and subsequent repackages), but the Rage remaster does help boost up some of the effects so that they are audible. Kernon noted to me that the initial pressing of the record was “quiet” and “bass-lite,” which the remaster addressed. It contains four bonus tracks: live versions of “Walk in the Shadows” and “The Killing Words,” an acoustic remix of “I Dream in Infrared,” and the 12” single version of “Gonna Get Close to You.”
From a live perspective, Queensr˙che opened for AC/DC, Bon Jovi and Ozzy Osbourne during the Rage for Order tour. The tour lasted from July 31, 1986 until late February 1987, concluding with a string of East Coast headline dates on Long Island, N.Y. The band also did a short headline tour in October 1986 of the southwest and west coast of the United States before their slate of opening gigs for Bon Jovi in November 1986. In what may be a surprise to some, Chris DeGarmo booked most of these headline gigs for QR, as the band was in-between management at the time. Tate's old (and future) bandmate, Randy “Random Damage” Gane also performed keyboards with the band for parts of the tour, playing off-stage.
In addition, because, well, it's always been “a thing,” yes, Queensr˙che adopted a bit of an 80s glam image for he album, and some of the support gigs. If I recall correctly, the band just didn't feel right trying to adopt an image that didn't suit them, and quickly ditched it. (Good call. Ha ha ha.)
Unfortunately for Queensr˙che, and despite its influence on many artists, Rage for Order wasn't very successful from EMI's standpoint (it didn't receive much airplay anywhere). While it continued the very slow burn of upward album sales (remember, this was the 1980s, so it was the sales that really meant something, as opposed to first week debut numbers), Queensryche struggled to find a mainstream audience and really become a substantial headline act. That would change in the next few years, however...
Samsara's top-3 from Rage for Order: “Screaming in Digital,” “Neue Regel,” “Walk in the Shadows.”
Next up...Operation: Mindcrime...
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When I finally got this one (it was the final piece of their official discography that I added after Empire), what initially stood out to me is how different it sounded, while also sounding right at home in the band's discography, if that makes sense. I vaguely recalled Walk in the Shadows from the Building Empires tour, but the rest of the album had been a bit of a mystery up to that point. Other than London, I don't recall which songs initially made an impression. I do remember not initially caring for Gonna Get Close To You. It had such a quirky vibe. But I didn't really pay attention to the lyrics and didn't understand what they were going for, so it just seemed odd.
But this album was a slow grower. The Promised Land tour helped quite a bit in that regard also by featuring some additional songs: Neue Regel and Screaming.
Gonna Get Close To You is still probably my least favorite tune on the album. But time has been kind to this album in my eyes, and I really do find myself really liking all the tracks from it. My top three would probably be: Screaming In Digital, Neue Regel, and London. (I was SO bummed when Geoff butchered the verse immediately after the guitar solo of London on the second night of the Live Evolution gigs--that is SUCH a powerful part of the song) But again, any song from this album is a welcome listen.
At the time this album came out, the band weren't on my radar at all. I think this is the team when I first started seeing adds for them in Circus and Hit Parader, but I didn't pay much attention. And I don't ever remember seeing the video for Gonna Get Close To You. So, unfortunately, I had no knowledge of this album at the time it was released. Hard to say how I would have reacted to it if I had heard it at the time. What I was mainly into during this time was guitar-driven hard rock. Yeah, you had bands using a bit of synthesizer here and there to add a bit of texture to songs. And bands like Van Halen had taken it further and put the keyboard more at the forefront here and there. But it was an instrument that I felt wasn't really used properly in the rock genre. Then you had some of the new wave and alternative bands that were very keyboard heavy and sometimes managed to use keys in a very complex way. I was looking for a band that could bridge that gap and write complex music that sometimes incorporated complex layers of keys as a counterpoint to heavy guitar (I obviously found what I was looking for much later in Dream Theater). So, on one hand, this album should have been just what I was looking for. On the other hand, I'm not sure it fit my expectations for what I was looking for at the time, and if I heard it, I very well might have just dismissed it as being too "weird" and "out there." It's hard to say, looking back now. What I can say is that the album definitely did make an impression once I discovered it years later in the early '90s.
More to say when we get to Mindcrime. That was the album that got me, although after the fact.
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I remember my first listen to this album very well. I was very excited about it after being a huge fan of The Warning. You can imagine my shock. I was still quite young, and my ability to appreciate music was still early in it's development. Upon seeing the album, I had imagined a sequel to their previous efforts. The record just seemed so strange and out of left field to me at the time. The truth is that I wasn't quite mature enough at the time to really appreciate what I was hearing.
Fast forward to about a year later, and the occasional attempt to listen to the record all the way through, it finally clicked with me and I fell in love. As with The Warning, when this album clicked it had the ability to fire my imagination. The songs could tell stories, and this set the band apart from the standard fare of the day. The production also set it far apart from most other bands of the time. While it's true that the album is light on the low-end, it seemed to be very "crisp" for as many layers as there were on the recording.
I now rank this as my 2nd favorite QR album.
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I've tried, but I just can't get into "Gonna Get Close to You". And that's probably the only song from EP-Promised Land that I just don't have much interest in. Overall, RFO is just such a cool strange weird album, but still kick ass.
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I remember my first listen to this album very well. I was very excited about it after being a huge fan of The Warning. You can imagine my shock. I was still quite young, and my ability to appreciate music was still early in it's development. Upon seeing the album, I had imagined a sequel to their previous efforts. The record just seemed so strange and out of left field to me at the time.
I felt the same way. I was so into the EP/Warning, that when RFO came out, I was like WTF?? The only tracks I liked were Walk In The Shadows, Surgical Strike, and I Will Remember. Obviously they are the tracks closer to Warning material.
I wasn't so thrown off by the band pics. I figured it was just a marketing thing. But wasn't this supposed to be a metal band? I kept wondering WTF are they going to do next?? I just didn't know what to think of QR at this point.
I had tix to Ozzy/Metallica in April '86. The show was cancelled/postponed until September, and when Ozzy came back, QR was opening. I actually ended up selling my ticket and didn't even bother. I didn't care for The Ultimate Sin, and had no idea what to feel about RFO. I knew I didn't care for the majority of the album.
I will say that this album has really aged well for me. For me, it's still miles behind Warming/O:M, but with each successive album QR put out after Empire, RFO continued to improve in the standings. I like it. A Lot.
As far as Gonna Get Close To You, I actually think Tate sells it pretty good. The guy is a natural creep. ;D
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This isn't my favorite Queensryche album, and it took a long time for me to warm up to it but man when it finally did it was amazing. This one comes in right below The Warning and Operation Mindcrime for me. My favorite tracks are: Walk In The Shadows, Neue Rgel, The Whisper, Screaming In Digital, and Surgical Strike.
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I was just re-listening to the RFO/Warning demos. Why they didn't clean up those songs and put them on the 2003 RFO reissue seems like a lost opportunity. The bonus songs they ended up putting on RFO seemed like a half ass effort. I definitely didn't need a second version of "Gonna Get Close to You" lol
Out of the bonus songs I listened to, "The Dream" and "Flames Keep Rising" are the standout tracks.
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I was just re-listening to the RFO/Warning demos. Why they didn't clean up those songs and put them on the 2003 RFO reissue seems like a lost opportunity. The bonus songs they ended up putting on RFO seemed like a half ass effort. I definitely didn't need a second version of "Gonna Get Close to You" lol
Out of the bonus songs I listened to, "The Dream" and "Flames Keep Rising" are the standout tracks.
A lot of time people mistake MYTH songs as QR demos, and accidentally label them as such (given Tate's voice, it isn't a surprise). The latter is a MYTH song, not Queensryche. :) MYTH had a bunch of really cool demos. I have a slate of them somewhere. Kelly Gray has all of that stuff. A literal treasure trove of Seattle metal from the late 70s and early 80s.
The three leftover Queensryche-written songs from Rage are The Dream, From the Darkside, and the title track.
For me, Rage for Order was my first exposure to Queensryche. Summer of 1987. A friend's brother was much older than us, and a headbanger. He saw Queensryche perform in early 1987 (one of the L'Amour gigs) and got a copy of Rage for Order. He didn't live at home, so when he came back to visit, he dubbed my buddy a copy, which I then dubbed. I was HUGE of Fifth Angel at the time, and I remember putting the dubbed copy of Rage into my Walkman that summer, and being blown away at the first song, and some of the others. But it didn't quite capture me at the time. I liked it, but Queensryche was squarely #2 in my book at the time. But with each passing month I got into it more...
And that story continues in the next album (as I assume for most of us).
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So I'd had The Warning for a good while, and really liked it. My mate and I went to the local record shop as he had some cash and wanted to buy something. Remember this was long before we new every little thing about our favourite bands and albums would sneak up on you.
Well, we find RFO has been released. I told him how awesome TW was and he bought it. We took it back to his place and he put it on. Well, he hated it, and I admit it wasn't what I was expecting.
Anyway, I bought it off him because I felt responsible. And as I played it a few more times it just blew me away. I loved that cold, stern sound, and the little noises and voices in the background.
It was top 10 in my top 50 and I limited bands to only two albums as a maximum.
I never tire of this album.
And Samsara, no mention of the vampire concept? 😀😀😀
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Rage for Order is awesome. Easily my 2nd favorite QR album, behind only Promised Land.
The atmosphere in songs like The Killing Words (those verses are :hefdaddy :hefdaddy) and I Dream in Infrared is out of this world.
Plus, this is their best sounding album of the 80s. By far.
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And Samsara, no mention of the vampire concept? 😀😀😀
There's no vampire concept, per se, but some of the lyrics are inspired by Anne Rice's work from the time period. ;)
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Rage was their third release. D2C was the third from the most recent. Vampires suck blood. D2C sucks. Connection!
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Rage was their third release. D2C was the third from the most recent. Vampires suck blood. D2C sucks. Connection!
Wow, now there's an argument with teeth.
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After being initially disappointed with The Warning, and then seeing "the look" they had adopted, I admit to not even paying attention to the album at first. Didn't buy it, didn't care. I was *DEEP* into heavy, thrash, METAL phase. Basically, between mid-85 and mid-88, I don't think I bought much of anything that was on a major label unless it came from "the big 4". And anything from Metal Blade, Combat, or Megaforce Records was almost nearly an automatic buy. Venom, Slayer, Destruction, Sodom, Kreator....etc...etc... Queensryche was not even on my radar.
But I think sometime in the spring of 1987, my cousin had a cassette of RFO sitting around, and I asked if I could borrow it to see what they were up to. And somehow, the cerebral part of me that still listened to and adored Rush got tapped into....and I was HOOKED.
This was THE album that officially won me over, and I became a full on "Queensryche fanboy". I had known about them before, and liked some of their stuff. But this was different. I've heard it said that in some ways, this is their first album, and I tend to agree. Front to back amazing. Every song is amazing (even Gonna Get Close to You). The album is so good that I even like the single. (very rare for me for any album by anyone)
They are all amazing, but if I had a gun to my head:
Neue Regal
Screaming in Digital
The Whisper
London
I Dream in Infrared
I Will Remember
Gonna Get Close to You
Surgical Strike
Walk in the Shadows
The Killing Words
Chemical Youth (We Are Rebellion)
(man, that list was hard)
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Scott is awesome on The Whisper.
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I think "The Whisper" is the bands most underrated tune
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London and Screaming in Digital were two I loved a lot and felt a bit underrated.
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I listened to it today for the first time in decades. I dig it!
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London and Screaming in Digital were two I loved a lot and felt a bit underrated.
Ha! London is one of my least favorite tunes in the EP-Empire era. ;D
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London and Screaming in Digital were two I loved a lot and felt a bit underrated.
Ha! London is one of my least favorite tunes in the EP-Empire era. ;D
Just shows the strength of the bands material back then.
I think the Live Evolution version of London is what made me really like it more.
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Forgot to mention that this is still my all time favorite QR album. PL is a close second (I've nicknamed PL "Rage for Order with a budget"....I think PL has an extremely similar vibe to it. And they *almost* recaptured the RFO magic....but not quite. Lack of band cohesion and DeGarmo suddenly having a bit too much control to be balanced)
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I've nicknamed PL "Rage for Order with a budget
I've nicknamed PL Rage For Order with a suck it.
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I've nicknamed PL "Rage for Order with a budget
I've nicknamed PL Rage For Order with a suck it.
Haha, no Tim, PL is awesome.
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I like Rage For Order but not as much as the previous album. There are a lot more soundscapes and experimental things happening that would be better refined on the next albums, but all the midtempo songs make things seem a little monotonous. The few uptempo songs (Surgical Strike, for example) that are on the album don't have the same impact as En Force or Queen Of the Reich.
Still a good album. Love the opening tune as well as The Whisper and I actually really dig Gonna Close To You. Love the creepy vibe on there. I kinda see RFO as a necessary stepping stone to Mindcrime. There's more adventurous stuff on here compared to Warning, but the songs aren't there yet IMO.
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I think "The Whisper" is the bands most underrated tune
It's very underrated for sure. I believe that one is entirely penned by DeGarmo, and was pretty challenging to sing following the 1980s for Geoff. It's sung entirely at the near top of his register. That is probably why they didn't play it again until 2005. And when they did, Tate sang the lower harmony as the lead. I was happy to hear it again, so I didn't care much. But my wife (who is a singer) was disgusted. When current Queensryche did it live back 2012-2014, Todd really nailed it. He metaled it up a bit, and lost a bit of the creepiness, which was a bummer, but man, did he knock it out of the park. He even went higher in some parts. I remember in Tempe, Az., Dec. 2012, we were talking with him after the show, and I asked him about taking it higher - he laughed and said "yeah, I wanted to have some fun with it." ha ha ha. So it was nice to hear it sung in the right range, even if the creepy vocal tone isn't there with Todd (his voice is naturally thinner than Tate's, so it doesn't come off quite the same way. But Todd still owned it. Great rendition).
Forgot to mention that this is still my all time favorite QR album. PL is a close second (I've nicknamed PL "Rage for Order with a budget"....I think PL has an extremely similar vibe to it. And they *almost* recaptured the RFO magic....but not quite. Lack of band cohesion and DeGarmo suddenly having a bit too much control to be balanced)
Interesting way to put it. I agree to an extent. The solo in "Lady Jane," and some of the darker moments scream RFO for sure. As for the reasons not to recapture the vibe, I don't think they were attempting to. We'll get to it more with PL, but the b-sides to that record (Real World, Dirty Lil Secret) are absolutely more Empire-sounding. I think (just me surmising here) they weren't quite sure where to go with the record at first. I think it was less about band cohesion, and more about indecisiveness on direction. but again, just a gut feeling. And after re-reading, maybe we're saying the same thing. lol
I like Rage For Order but not as much as the previous album. There are a lot more soundscapes and experimental things happening that would be better refined on the next albums, but all the midtempo songs make things seem a little monotonous. The few uptempo songs (Surgical Strike, for example) that are on the album don't have the same impact as En Force or Queen Of the Reich.
Still a good album. Love the opening tune as well as The Whisper and I actually really dig Gonna Close To You. Love the creepy vibe on there. I kinda see RFO as a necessary stepping stone to Mindcrime. There's more adventurous stuff on here compared to Warning, but the songs aren't there yet IMO.
Great post. I think the more aggressive songs on Rage don't get nearly the love they should. Chemical Youth and Surgical Strike are really good songs. I also prefer The Warning to RFO, but I have a tremendous respect for the experimental aspect of RFO. Over time, my appreciation for the songwriting has gone up. The bad thing about RFO to me is that the production sounds dated. I mean really dated. But the songs are a lot more forward-thinking.
I asked Kernon when I interviewed him if he ever considered looking into doing a 5.1 remix of the record to really spruce up the sound, and he said he'd totally be into it. He was in touch with Scott at the time on other things, so I am sure they talked about it. But one of the key things with Queensryche is -- DeGarmo and Tate were the more 'go getters' of the band. If there is a project with the band, the other three principals kind of laid back a bit and didn't want to do that sort of thing (this is coming from a couple of people that knew them). So I'm speculating that a 5.1 mix of the record likely wouldn't happen, just given the personalities of the current band members.
It sucks, honestly. I was hoping that at some point, DeGarmo might want to do some of this stuff and approach the band about him taking control of some of these projects with the back catalog (sorta how Steve Perry did some stuff behind the scenes for Journey a few years back in regard to live recordings of the band), and work as a go-between, between the band and the Tates on projects like a 5.1 of Rage, or tweaks to The Warning. But it hasn't happened, and I think the ship has sailed.
But Rage absolutely set the table for the next three records from QR...
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This is were it’s at, this is the most experimental and most varied QR record. And Rage For Order (and to a slightly lesser degree Operation Mindcrime) is why QR is considered progressive metal. Surprising that they show such creativity and maturity on only their second full-length record.
I liked Rage For Order from the beginning, but then I came backwards from Mindcrime and was used to a little bit progressiveness in their music. If I had known them from The Warning/EP on, I’m not sure if I would have readily accepted this record as being great.
Geoff here sings better (imo) than before but still is not at the top of his game, too quacky sometimes for my liking.
My favorite tracks are (not in order): Walk In The Shadows, I Dream In Infrared, Gonna Get Close To You, London and I Will Remember (the precursor to Silent Lucidity).
Gonna Get Close To You: I love this track and especially the quirky vibe. It has such a great arrangement and unusual guitar work, and one of Geoff’s finest vocal performances. You can hear the madness and the creepiness right there. Probably because, as TAC mentioned, Tate is creepy, so it was natural for him . :biggrin: Fits the quirky vibe of the song and the dark theme of the album perfectly. I never heard the original version by Dalbello so I don’t know how much QR made this song their own. But as I said, it fits perfectly on the record, and I'm surprised that so many don’t seem to like it.
Neue Regel: Interesting track and funny how Tate gets the accentuation completely wrong. :biggrin:
Overall this is a really great record, probably second in my personal ranking after Operation Mindcrime, although sometimes Empire takes that spot.
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If I had known them from The Warning/EP on, I’m not sure if I would have readily accepted this record as being great.
Right. Not that there was anything wrong with RFO per se, but it was quite a jarring departure from the type of band I thought Queensryche was.
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Rage was my first QR record. I think I was 11 or 12 when I got it, so that would have put it somewhere around 1988 or 1989. Mindcrime was already out, but for some reason, I wanted to get Rage. I certainly wasn't disappointed. I loved everything about the record. I actually got it on cassette, so there was no lyric sheet or photos (I didn't know what they looked like on that record until a few years later). Given that I grew up in a prog rock household (my dad was a big Genesis and ELP fan), Rage was right in my wheelhouse. I had discovered Metallica around that same time, so I was on a pretty steady diet of Metallica and Queensryche through much of 1989 and 1990. I remember going back and getting the Warning before moving up to Mindcrime and I remember being surprised at just how different sounding those two records were, but I loved them both. Neue Regel and Screaming in Digital were my favorites, and still are.
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I'm pretty sure that I got RFO around the same time that I got the EP and Warning, maybe less than a year before I saw them on the Q2K tour in 1999.
I always gravitated towards the heavier songs on the album - Walk in the Shadows, Whisper, Surgical Strike and Chemical Youth. Later on, I got into more of the other songs. With the exception of Gonna Get Close to You, I there really aren't any songs that I actively dislike, though London isn't really my cup of tea.
Fun fact: Neil Kernon used to hang out at the Perpetual Motion/PMX:2 forum (https://pmx2.krose.org/) and post as NK. He would often answer questions and share anecdotes about Queensryche and RFO.
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Not really following this thread, and I'm one of the many who completely lost interest in Queensryche post 1997 or even earlier, but I have to join in the praise for Rage of Order. The perfect lead-up to their magnum opus and a very great record, it showed a band clearly maturing and progressing and the best was yet to come.
Walk in the Shadows, I Dream in Infrared, The Whisper, The Killing Words, I will Remember... all fantastic songs!!!
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R4O was my second QR album after Mindcrime. Needless to say, I was a bit perplexed by what I was hearing especially after immersing myself in Mindcrime for quite a long time.
I was not a fan initially, but through the years I came to appreciate just what they put together on this album.
Til this day though, "I Will Remember" is one of my least favorite QR songs.
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So Following this thread I listened to the debut ep and the warning and it was really good. I only knew "Real World" and "Silent Lucidity" as well as O:M. I didnt really care for the debut ep but The Warning was really solid, im surprised how much I liked it considering how much I didn't like O:M.
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I didn't realize not liking O:M was even an option.
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This is were it’s at, this is the most experimental and most varied QR record. And Rage For Order (and to a slightly lesser degree Operation Mindcrime) is why QR is considered progressive metal.
Some will call me crazy, but I have never really thought of this band as metal. The closest thing to metal about them in the 80s was Tate's voice, which often had that Halford/Dio-esque quality to it, but musically it almost always strikes me as hard rock, not metal. Sure, you can find a moment here or a moment there that is metal, but they are the exceptions more than the rule with their sound, IMO.
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This is were it’s at, this is the most experimental and most varied QR record. And Rage For Order (and to a slightly lesser degree Operation Mindcrime) is why QR is considered progressive metal.
Some will call me crazy, but I have never really thought of this band as metal. The closest thing to metal about them in the 80s was Tate's voice, which often had that Halford/Dio-esque quality to it, but musically it almost always strikes me as hard rock, not metal. Sure, you can find a moment here or a moment there that is metal, but they are the exceptions more than the rule with their sound, IMO.
I hear metal when I listen to the EP and The Warning. After that, I'm on board with you.
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When I listen to the EP/Warning, I hear AWSOME!!!
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When I listen to Promised Land, I hear AWSOME!!!
:tup :tup
I hear metal when I listen to the EP and The Warning. After that, I'm on board with you.
See, most of The Warning comes off to me as hard rock, not metal, aside from Tate's vocal style.
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There are some shenanigans going on in this thread.
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It was so highly spoken of everywhere so when I finally gave it a listen a few years back it seemed like a pretty bland album. I'll give it another spin soon when it comes up in this thread.
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It depends how you define metal or hard rock. For me hard rock always has a little bluesy touch like Whitesnake, Van Halen, AC/DC etc. There's nothing like it in Queensryche. But then not every song of theirs is full on metal, so I don't know how to classify it.
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I vividly remember buying Rage for Order after reading an interview(!) with them in a magazine called OOR. Amongst other things they talked about the disapointing soundmix of The Warning, and how they made it a point to remedy this with the new album. And boy, did they.
I coudn'nt believe my ears when I first played it. Everything sounded great. From Walk in the shadows, to I only dream in infrared, to London, to Chemical youth/Neue Regal (or is it Regel ? because if it's supposed to be German for 'New Rules' it should be the latter), to the fantastic songs like The Whisper and Screaming in Digital, this was the band and album I had been looking for.
The cold, machinelike sound, the sonwriting and especially the layered vocal chorusses, i really submerged myself in the lyrics and meanings of the songs. Lyricsheets had never come so handy. This was finally a band that tackled other topics than the usual macho bullshit bla bla bla and talked about political issues and technological progress and all with a grand style and panache, it was beyond belief. The songs took you to places never visited before. The only thing that really confused the hell outta me were the bandmember pics on the back cover. I mean, wtf?!
Tate showed how much he was progressing into THE leading male vocalist of the genre. I loved Scott Rockenfield's playing style even more. The guitarwork was phenomenal.
I could go on and on about this albumn and how much it shaped my taste in music for the coming years, but of the classic albums by them, this one is only topped by O:M.
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Neue Regal? I don't have my cd here to check it but I'm pretty sure it's listed as Neue Regel. Everything else wouldn't make sense.
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Tate showed how much he was progressing into THE leading male vocalist of the genre. I loved Scott Rockenfield's playing style even more. The guitarwork was phenomenal.
You can feel the fun in Scott's playing.
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Neue Regal? I don't have my cd here to check it but I'm pretty sure it's listed as Neue Regel. Everything else wouldn't make sense.
Well I've seen it misspelled here so many times.. just askin... :biggrin:
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Argh! Somebody needs to do a better job updating the Discography Tracker thread. I had no idea that this had started.
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In regard to Queensryche being "metal," I think they absolutely were in the early years. I identify them as a "metal" band from the EP through Mindcrime.
Starting with Empire and moving forward, i think of them as hard rock with some metal moments. Tate was blessed with a golden voice for heavy metal songs, but his interest was elsewhere. If you listen to his early stuff with MYTH, and especially with Babylon before that, he's totally a prog rock guy. But when The Mob asked him to do their set, the reaction to Tate singing and fronting those metal songs they played was obviously a turning point. That's where Tate's voice best fit at the time, and the EP is evidence of that.
But while Mike, Ed, and Scott were very much into Priest, Van Halen, Rush, Scorpions, Maiden, Zeppelin etc. (all at the time considered metal), DeGarmo was a bit more open. He was heavily into Floyd, The Beatles, etc., which really connected with Tate's more art rock leanings.
So they balanced all of that extremely well, keeping the metal for a few records before evolving away from that being their base. The evolution can easily be seen in the writing credits. The less you see Michael Wilton, the less "metal" the records became. It was usually Michael's heavy, more traditional-metal style riffs that gave Queensryche that metal sound. DeGarmo had crunchy metal riffs too, but he was bigger into creating flow parts and arranging to make a dynamic song. And so he really evolved as a songwriter and that's why he connected with Tate, artistically, all those years. DeGarmo would take his riffs and Michael's, turn them something into Tate would get inspired by, and then work with Tate smooth out a cool vocal melody. And after Empire, you see Mike's contributions start to tail off. But we'll get to that later.
Bottom line, at least for me, Queensryche was a metal band through Mindcrime, and then took a very obvious turn toward hard rock with some heavier leanings at times, and stayed there.
re: Neue Regel
I thought it was Neue Regel, which meant, new rule or new order, right?
The cold, machinelike sound, the sonwriting and especially the layered vocal chorusses, i really submerged myself in the lyrics and meanings of the songs. Lyricsheets had never come so handy. This was finally a band that tackled other topics than the usual macho bullshit bla bla bla and talked about political issues and technological progress and all with a grand style and panache, it was beyond belief. The songs took you to places never visited before. The only thing that really confused the hell outta me were the bandmember pics on the back cover. I mean, wtf?!
Tate showed how much he was progressing into THE leading male vocalist of the genre. I loved Scott Rockenfield's playing style even more. The guitarwork was phenomenal.
I could go on and on about this albumn and how much it shaped my taste in music for the coming years, but of the classic albums by them, this one is only topped by O:M.
Yeah, Rage was my first exposure to Queensryche as well, and the lyrics of the band really drew me to them as well. Fully agreed that it was a breath of fresh air to have bands like Queensryche (and for me, Fifth Angel) talk about serious, interesting stuff that made you think a bit. I mean, I loved (and still love) the hair metal party bands. They have their place. But when I was 11 and heard Rage, it really helped me turn a corner into getting into music that was...MORE. And Rage was the record that made me lean in that more cerebral and thoughtful direction.
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Almost done listening to rage and it's pretty solid. Not sure if I'd rank it higher than the warning but it's good nonetheless.
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Way too late to this thread, but here's my "How I discovered Queensr˙che" story.
Like many, I first heard of them when "Silent Lucidity" was all over the air back in the 90's. I was teaching high school at the time, and heard some of my students talking about what a great album Empire was. I knew these guys to be rockers, so I was a bit concerned. They told me that "Silent Lucidity" was not Queensr˙che's normal sound. They're really heavy, almost metal, and even kind of progressive. This is before "Progressive Metal" had really caught on as a term or a genre.
One of them lent me their copy of Empire on cassette (remember those?) My car stereo could play tapes or CDs, and of course I had both at home as well. I listened, and was blown away. This would have been right around the time I got into Dream Theater, who also blew me away. I never gave him to the tape back. After intending to bring it back in for weeks, but forgetting, I finally remembered one day, and he told me he'd gotten tired of waiting and got the CD, so I could keep the tape. I still have it. But this was the 90's (new baby + unemployed wife + teacher's salary = no money) so I never explored Queensr˙che any further.
A few years later, I'm a programmer sitting in a cubicle listening to tapes on my boombox. "A Change of Seasons" (the song) was playing when some analyst named Dave stopped in to ask me a question. I turn my tunes down and he goes "Wait... what was that?" I told him it was a band called Dream Theater. He goes "Dream Theater?! Those guys are awesome!" First and only time a co-worker has ever even heard of them. We talked about Dream Theater for a while, then prog metal, and music in general. He asked me if I ever listened to Queensr˙che. I told him I had Empire, but that's it. Never really got a chance to dig into them.
A couple days later, he comes in with his collection of Queensr˙che CDs. Everything from the EP to Promised Land (the latest at the time). Tells me to borrow them as long as I want. He has them ripped to his iPod and his PC at home.
I thought the EP sounded very interesting. A young, hungry band shooting their load and seeing what sprouted. The Warning didn't thrill me, but wasn't bad. Rage for Order was where things started to get good. Starting to push things a bit, and I'm definitely more of a proghead than a metalhead, so the prog side grabbed me.
And that's where I'll stop, since Rage for Order is where we are in the discography now.
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I'm noticing a trend of some of the forum members with more of a prog background prefer Rage while the metal guys seem to like Warning better. Interesting.
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Way too late to this thread, but here's my "How I discovered Queensr˙che" story.
Like many, I first heard of them when "Silent Lucidity" was all over the air back in the 90's. I was teaching high school at the time, and heard some of my students talking about what a great album Empire was. I knew these guys to be rockers, so I was a bit concerned. They told me that "Silent Lucidity" was not Queensr˙che's normal sound. They're really heavy, almost metal, and even kind of progressive. This is before "Progressive Metal" had really caught on as a term or a genre.
One of them lent me their copy of Empire on cassette (remember those?) My car stereo could play tapes or CDs, and of course I had both at home as well. I listened, and was blown away. This would have been right around the time I got into Dream Theater, who also blew me away. I never gave him to the tape back. After intending to bring it back in for weeks, but forgetting, I finally remembered one day, and he told me he'd gotten tired of waiting and got the CD, so I could keep the tape. I still have it. But this was the 90's (new baby + unemployed wife + teacher's salary = no money) so I never explored Queensr˙che any further.
A few years later, I'm a programmer sitting in a cubicle listening to tapes on my boombox. "A Change of Seasons" (the song) was playing when some analyst named Dave stopped in to ask me a question. I turn my tunes down and he goes "Wait... what was that?" I told him it was a band called Dream Theater. He goes "Dream Theater?! Those guys are awesome!" First and only time a co-worker has ever even heard of them. We talked about Dream Theater for a while, then prog metal, and music in general. He asked me if I ever listened to Queensr˙che. I told him I had Empire, but that's it. Never really got a chance to dig into them.
A couple days later, he comes in with his collection of Queensr˙che CDs. Everything from the EP to Promised Land (the latest at the time). Tells me to borrow them as long as I want. He has them ripped to his iPod and his PC at home.
I thought the EP sounded very interesting. A young, hungry band shooting their load and seeing what sprouted. The Warning didn't thrill me, but wasn't bad. Rage for Order was where things started to get good. Starting to push things a bit, and I'm definitely more of a proghead than a metalhead, so the prog side grabbed me.
And that's where I'll stop, since Rage for Order is where we are in the discography now.
:tup :tup
I'm noticing a trend of some of the forum members with more of a prog background prefer Rage while the metal guys seem to like Warning better. Interesting.
Perhaps, but Rage for Order sounds better, has better songwriting, is more diverse, and is far more creative and adventurous. To me, The Warning is a solid record, but one that was left far behind in the rearview mirror by what they accomplished on Rage for Order.
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I hear metal when I listen to the EP and The Warning. After that, I'm on board with you.
See, most of The Warning comes off to me as hard rock, not metal, aside from Tate's vocal style.
I've always imagined The EP (to a lesser extent) and The Warning (to a greater extent) to be heavily influenced by Judas Priest albums like Sad Wings of Destiny, and Sin after Sin. I'm not exactly sure why I draw parallels between those albums and the early QR work. It's probably the vocal delivery that you mentioned. To me those early JP albums are integral building blocks to establishing metal, so I place the early QR stuff into the same category in my mind.
I've never heard anyone else come to that conclusion, so I do accept the fact that I might be completely full of shit on the matter as well :lol
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I'm noticing a trend of some of the forum members with more of a prog background prefer Rage while the metal guys seem to like Warning better. Interesting.
I'm definitively more a metalhead than a progster but I always preferred Rage over Warning. Not that the albums are that apart in quality to have a clear "winner" anyway.
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I'm noticing a trend of some of the forum members with more of a prog background prefer Rage while the metal guys seem to like Warning better. Interesting.
Perhaps, but Rage for Order sounds better, has better songwriting, is more diverse, and is far more creative and adventurous. To me, The Warning is a solid record, but one that was left far behind in the rearview mirror by what they accomplished on Rage for Order.
I'm equally metalhead and proghead but that doesn't matter because it's the above mentioned reasons why I think Rage is far superior.
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I'm also pretty much equal parts metalhead and proghead, and I love Warning and RFO equally :biggrin:
Objectively, I can say that RFO is the superior record for all the reasons that Kev has stated. I just have a sentimental soft spot for The Warning because I lived through that album from the time it was released. And from a purely metal standpoint, The Warning certainly stood out from the rest of the crowd at the time. The only other metal that had my ears back then was Metallica, Maiden and Mercyful Fate.
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Rage for Order is quite a mindblowing album imo. I can't say in good conscious that it's as solid an album from start-to-finish as Operation: Mindcrime is, but its flaws aside, RfO has a mood and complexity to it that the band's never managed to recreate since. Its highs are insanely high for me and showcase a band that was far ahead of its time.
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Also, a metal band finally made synths and keyboards WORK in the sound!
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Also, a metal band finally made synths and keyboards WORK in the sound!
It all sounded so cool. And weird.
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I read somewhere that they sampled the orchestra they recorded for The Warning and used it on RFO.
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Sorry for my belated commentary to RFO - absolutely *love* this album. Funny that 1986 was the year of Maiden's Somewhere in Time, RFO and Master of Puppets. A very good year indeed.
While I had gotten into QR courtesy of hearing Eyes of a Stranger on the radio and borrowing a cassette of O:M which got me into the band, RFO really sealed the deal for me. But it took another year before I got to hear it. At the time (1989) I was working at a dealership and one of the mechanics I befriended was your typical long-hair who had quite the collection of rock and metal cassettes. He lended me RFO and the EP. While the EP was good (especially the first and last tracks), what really grabbed my attention was RFO. I couldn't explain what it was, but the album just clicked with me instantly. Only a couple of songs didn't do much for me (Surgical Strike and Screaming in Digital, the latter which I would appreciate more seeing live in 1995). OTOH, the song was chock full of great tunes like Walk in the Shadows, I Dream in Infrared, The Killing Words, London, I Will Remember and especially Neue Regel. To this day, that track is my favorite QR track of all time, which I'm listening to as I type this. Would love to see DT cover this song, but that won't happen. Would love to see them (DT) incorporate some of the more experimental nature of RFO in their next album. Great stuff.
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Absolutely agree, Scotty. While I have really liked the last three DT albums, and the last one even took a big chance thematically....they havent really taken a lot of chances musically speaking.
I would like to see them experiment more.
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Ah, Rage For Order... now we're talking!
It took me a long time to get around to buying R4O - I came to QR through Livecrime and Empire, then a friend at University gave me his copy of The Warning (which was underwhelming) and Promised Land was initially a big let down (teenage expectations FTW). I think I bought R4O between HiTNF (which I loved... lowered expectations FTW) and was floored by how good it was.
Everything about it is a big step up from The Warning. How they got there I don't know - cross pollination of tastes; responding to what did and didn't work about The Warning; some quality drug taking; Tate dialling it in a little; whatever - but this time round Tate's melodramatic delivery sits perfectly with the rest of the music and it's the sound of a band stepping away from the overt influences into their own little musical bubble.
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Everything about it is a big step up from The Warning. How they got there I don't know - cross pollination of tastes; responding to what did and didn't work about The Warning; some quality drug taking; Tate dialling it in a little; whatever - but this time round Tate's melodramatic delivery sits perfectly with the rest of the music and it's the sound of a band stepping away from the overt influences into their own little musical bubble.
That's pretty much it. In my opinion, Rage expanded on NM 156 (which was one of the last songs done for The Warning), which Tate has said numerous times is where the band really found its creative legs. Rage really set the stage for Queensryche to have its own distinct sound. As Chris DeGarmo once said, "nobody's original. everyone is uniquely derivative." That's true, but Queensryche got as close as it could to an original sound on Rage for Order, which really influenced a ton of other artists down the line.
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Rage for order is a decent album in its own right, but its sandwhiched between 2 albums I like a whole lot more. That being said, The Killing words is my favorite QR song :metal
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A friend had O:M soon after it was out, and he insisted we sit and give it a listen. Became a fan then. I tried out the previous releases later, and RFO was the only one that received occasional play afterwards. A definite advancement and growth from 'The Warning'.
I haven't seen this mentioned: the tossed aside title track certainly grew into something quite special
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuNtjy9Cl-w
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I haven't seen this mentioned: the tossed aside title track certainly grew into something quite special
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuNtjy9Cl-w
It sure was! ;)
There were a few leftover songs that were demoed by Queensryche for Rage for Order that have never seen a public release: The title track, “The Dream” and “From the Darkside.” The title track featured a very pre-Queensryche-like Geoff Tate vocal delivery. Geoff showed his penchant for rap/spoken type of vocal here. The tune was scrapped, but pretty much everything except the verses and chorus were resurrected as an instrumental (“Anarchy-X”) on Queensr˙che's next album, Operation: Mindcrime.
:D
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Yup, ....read the thread too fast. :sad:
(I did at least provide the link for it ;))
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Operation: Mindcrime (1988)
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/om.jpg)
Lead vocals/keyboards: Geoff Tate
Guitars/vocals: Chris DeGarmo
Guitars/vocals: Michael Wilton
Bass/vocals: Eddie Jackson
Drums/percussion: Scott Rockenfield
Overview
If you're reading this, you're no doubt already familiar with Operation: Mindcrime. Lauded by both fans and critics, the album broke Queensr˙che through to the mainstream, and is put on a pedestal as one of the best rock/metal concept albums of all-time.
In fact, Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden told Maiden leader Steve Harris that Operation: Mindcrime was better than Iron Maiden's concept record Seventh Son of a Seventh Son (Harris disagreed, obviously). See https://teamrock.com/feature/2015-09-04/iron-maiden-album-by-album-in-their-own-words.
Drawing influence from Pink Floyd's The Wall and The Who's Tommy, Operation: Mindcrime is approximately an hour long, and showcases Queensryche's maturity as songwriters. Released in May 1988, the record expertly combines elements of prog, hard rock, metal to support the varying emotions found in a tale about revolution, manipulation, addiction and relationships. The idea behind the concept was Geoff Tate's. The singer spent time after the Rage for Order tour cycle in Montreal, overhearing various tidbits about revolutionary plots from seedier characters at bars. According to Tate, he was walking home one night, and found himself drawn to enter a church, and the basis for the story that would become Operation: Mindcrime came to him in a flood of imagery and ideas.
After sketching out a rough outline, including the creation of the character “Sister Mary” (who is based on a woman who was dressed as a nun at a club Tate and DeGarmo visited while on tour in Europe for Rage for Order), Tate brought the idea to the band, who were dead set against doing it. Tate eventually won over DeGarmo, however, who immersed himself into the concept, and then convinced the band to give it a shot. The idea finally clicked with all of them, and Queensr˙che started work on the project in earnest.
The Concept
Note: I'm not going to go track-by-track here. This is more or less just a loose summary of what happens in the story. By now, I would think most reading this know the characters and how the story unfolds.
Operation: Mindcrime is the tale of three central characters – Nikki, Sister Mary, and Dr. X. Nikki, a bit of drifter, hears rumblings on the street about a revolution and gets roped into becoming a hit man for Dr. X, the leader of the revolutionary movement. As the story unfolds, Nikki gets involved with Mary, a prostitute that has “reformed” and become a nun. Mary isn't nearly as “reformed,” however, as she “services” the priest over her, before becoming involved with Nikki.
To test Nikki's loyalty, and growing addiction to drugs that Dr. X provides, X tasks Nikki with killing Mary, along with the priest. Nikki meets Mary, but finds himself unable to kill her. The priest is shot, and Nikki ends up finding Mary dead afterward. Nikki then finds himself on the run from the police, who have targeted Nikki as the killer of both, even though the whole operation was orchestrated by Dr. X.
As the story concludes, Nikki finds himself depressed, heartbroken over Mary, and firmly painted as a murderer, all while Dr. X continues with his life. The record ends with Nikki trying to come to grips with who he is. At the end, the listener notes that Nikki is still in a mental hospital. This leads to the inevitable questions of whether the story really happened, or was it just a drug-induced dream from an insane person?
Note: The record is also circular (much as how The Warning was supposed to be) in that the end fades into the introduction of the first track.
Music & Vocals
Musically, Operation: Mindcrime is firmly rooted in the twin heavy metal guitar attack of Chris DeGarmo and Michael Wilton. The band is arguably at the height of its technical prowess here, as DeGarmo and Wilton play off one another not only in trade-off and harmonized leads, but to create huge chords as well.
“One area where DeGarmo and Wilton particularly distinguish themselves is in the orchestration of their rhythm parts,” said John Walker of Dinosaur Rock Guitar. “Their approach is closest to Tipton and Downing's: two players using dissimilar tones and different chord inversions to separate themselves in the mix. But DeGarmo and Wilton take this approach further by combining two different chords to create one complex chord. When they do this, DeGarmo normally takes the lower part, and Wilton stacks a higher part over the top of it. This is hard to do without creating sonic mud. But by separating their sounds spatially and using different timbres, they achieve definition.”
See https://www.dinosaurrockguitar.com/node/17.
To help further that definition between the two players, the guitars of DeGarmo and Wilton are at times separated in the mix, with DeGarmo appearing in one channel, and Wilton the other (specifically on trade-off solos). Each play to their collective and individual strengths on Operation: Mindcrime, with Wilton handling some of the more aggressive leads (“Speak,” “Revolution Calling,” “The Needle Lies,” etc.), while DeGarmo's solos enhance the more emotive songs (“The Mission,” “Suite Sister Mary”). The two harmonize or trade-off on most of the others.
Don't forget the contributions of Eddie Jackson (bass) and Scott Rockenfield (drums) on Operation: Mindcrime, however. Both are playing arguably the most aggressive rhythms of their careers on the album, providing a steady, yet complex backdrop for the story to be told. Guitarists are often noted for helping drive the emotion of a song, but on Operation: Mindcrime, the rhythm section holds significant responsibility in this regard.
Geoff Tate gives arguably the most storied performance of his professional life on Operation: Mindcrime, both as a singer and a lyricist. Tate showcases all areas of his operatic range and a penchant for taking on character roles and delivering them with conviction. Pamela Moore lends her sultry vocals on “Suite Sister Mary,” breathing life into a character that fans would praise for decades to come. Tate and Moore unite on the track, providing a captivating climax to the Operation: Mindcrime story.
Moore at the time was working in a local music store and doing commercials for radio and TV. DeGarmo heard her voice on a commercial, and sought her out specifically for the role of Sister Mary. Moore didn't actually sing with Geoff in the studio, however. DeGarmo and Tate explained the story to her, and handed her a tape upon arrival in Montreal. She tracked her vocals the next day. See https://anybodylistening.net/4.html for more on that.
Recording
Originally, Neil Kernon was going to produce Queensr˙che again, after the band was so happy with his work on Rage for Order. He got tied up with Dokken, however, and the band turned to Peter Collins, and a team of Paul Northfield and James “Jimbo” Barton to handle the production, engineering, and mixing, respectively, on Operation: Mindcrime. Michael Kamen, who did orchestration on The Warning, handled orchestration on Operation: Mindcrime as well. The record was recorded in Gladwyne, Pennsylvania, and in Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
The choir vocals were handled by the “Moronic Monks of Morin Heights,” who doubled, in their spare time, as the staff of Le Studio in Montreal. ;-) Anthony Valentine played Dr. X, Debbie Wheeler was the hospital nurse, Mike Snyder's voice was used as the TV anchorman, and the late Scott Mateer played Father William.
Album Factoids
The ending of “Eyes of a Stranger” on the album differs from how the band used to end it live. During live shows, Queensryche came up with a way (after they were done recording the album) to reprise “Anarchy-X” to close “Eyes of a Stranger” before the sonic montage and of “REVOLUTION” and "I REMEMBER NOW" lines concluded the story. Fans dubbed this added section “Anarchy-xtra.” The reprise was consistently played from 1988-1997, and heightened the dramatic ending of Operation: Mindcrime, and usually, the main set of the band's shows. It was changed somewhat once DeGarmo left the group in 1997, and the current version of Queensr˙che typically does not play it.
Credit-wise, some may not know it was actually Michael Wilton that came up with the chorus to “Speak" -- "Speak the word. The word is all of us.”
The album was remastered and re-released with some live bonus tracks in 2003, and then released as a 25th Anniversary box set in 2013 (see below for the image).
Singles
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-eyesofastranger.jpg)(https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-idontbelieveinlove.jpg)(https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-breakingthesilence.jpg) (https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-revolutioncalling.jpg)
Reception and Touring
Despite its popularity in heavy metal now, Operation: Mindcrime had a rough start on the charts when it was released. It went over peoples' heads at first. After completing a tour cycle opening for Def Leppard and Metallica, EMI was about to pull the plug on things and send Queensr˙che back to the studio. After the band kept pushing to stay out on the road and work the record, EMI took a chance and and released a video for “Eyes of a Stranger” to MTV. The video exploded up the charts, giving Operation: Mindcrime, and Queensryche, a needed shot in the arm.
Thanks in large part to the MTV exposure, in a few short months, Queensryche went from opening for Metallica, to headlining their own run of shows in Europe, Japan and the west coast of the United States. The headline gigs showcased Queensr˙che at its heaviest. The band would perform most of Operation: Mindcrime, a good chunk of Rage for Order, and a smattering of songs from The Warning and the EP in a two-hour metal fest. See www.anybodylistening.net/tourdates.html (scroll down) for an example of a typical 1989 headline gig.
However, despite Operation: Mindcrime being a concept record, the band never performed it in its entirety on the support tour for the record, leaving out “Suite Sister Mary” and a few of the segue pieces, such as “My Empty Room” and “Electric Requiem.” But by May 1989, Queensryche had certainly arrived, and would make the record the centerpiece for its next world tour (1990-1992 for Empire), and its first as genuine headliners.
In the interim, Queensryche released Video: Mindcrime on Sept. 26, 1989. The VHS contained a series of inter-linked videos shot for Operation: Mindcrime, including, after the credits, how Sister Mary ultimately met her demise. (It blinks on the screen during an alternate video take for “I Don't Believe in Love.”)
After the success of the “Eyes of a Stranger” video (which was a standalone done before the other videos), the band was told by EMI it could either release one more video and have a promotional campaign for it, or shoot a series of videos connecting the Operation: Mindcrime story and release it. The band chose the latter. It was released on VHS, and also on Laser disc in Japan. Video: Mindcrime was finally put on DVD in 2013, as a part of the deluxe box set edition of Operation: Mindcrime.
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/qr-video-mindcrime.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RBG4NF65L._SX425_.jpg)
Post-2005 statements on Operation: Mindcrime
For the record, there were no plans for a sequel to the original Operation: Mindcrime, despite what you may have read/heard from 2005-present. It was a self-contained story and has a beginning and end. If you read/watch/listen to interviews done by the band from 1988-2004 where they are asked about a sequel, the band continually states the story is complete and no sequel is needed/planned.
In order to make it more dramatic and push sales up, their public statements regarding Operation: Mindcrime changed when the band decided to do the sequel in 2005. As to why they changed their minds and Tate put forth some revisionist history (alternative facts, anyone?), there is a fairly simple reason. We'll get to it when we cover Operation: Mindcrime II later.
Samsara's top-three from Operation: Mindcrime: Eyes of a Stranger, The Mission, Revolution Calling. (This is ridiculously unfair. The whole record should be listened to from front-to-back. Ha ha ha).
Next up: EMPIRE...
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Well, here it comes: the ultimate masterpiece of Queensryche. I don't remember if it's the first thing I heard from them, but it's surely the reason why I even bothered to listen to the other stuff of the band in the first place.
It's one of those perfect albums, where all the stars align and everything on it is great. One of those records that get universal praise, you listen to understand what the fuzz's all about... and you immediately get it. A complete masterpiece, filled to the brink with awesome, gorgeous and memorable songs, it's almost a sacrilege to not listen to it from start to bottom, and it's very difficult to select songs to be left out in an imaginary playlist.
Favorite songs? mostly everything! Revolution Calling, Suite Sister Mary, Breaking the Silence and I Don't Believe in Love are maybe my favorites, but really, it's hard to find anything wrong on this album. One of the best records that have graced, or will ever grace, the metal scene.
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One of my favorite albums of all time, though I haven't really listened to it for a long, long time. My introduction to QR came with the following album and its radio play, however, I bought Mindcrime first, I believe, along with Empire. At the time, I was a teenager and still into my "thrash or die" mode, yet I discovered melodic heavy metal with a local Chicago band called Radakka around the same time. They were heavily influenced by Queensryche (not a clone, but the melodic, higher vocals, vocal and guitar melodies were in the same style), so I was just getting into this type of metal music.
I liked the singles immediately - I Don't Believe in Love and Eyes of a Stranger. Slowly, I ended up digging the rest of the album, but the story really eluded me until one night several years later in college. I was up late listening to music on my headphones in the dorms and the fire alarm went off at 2am or some crazy hour. Upon coming back upstairs, I sat down with the album on, reading along with the libretto from the Livecrime box set. The album and its story just clicked into place and I was completely transfixed by the disc.
I saw them on the Q2K tour for the first time, in the front row, which featured nearly every primary song from Mindcrime, aside from a few interludes and Suite Sister Mary, so I got a nice heavy dose of the album in a live setting. Geoff even knelt down and sang one verse of Spreading the Disease a few feet in front of me, which remains one of my favorite concert moments of all time - being that close to one of my favorite singers, fist in the air, shouting the lyrics right back at him.
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Operation: Mindcrime has never been surpassed for me, personally. I love everything about the album from front to back. I chose three songs to highlight at the end as "top tracks," but truth be told, I sorta just went beginning, middle, end. there's not a dud anywhere on the record. Every song, every segue, plays an important cog and I love them all pretty much equally.
I've been a hard rock and heavy metal fan now for exactly 30 years. Operation: Mindcrime, for me, is still the pinnacle. And I really doubt it will ever be knocked off that lofty pedestal I place it on. Just pure sonic perfection for me. #fanboyextreme
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I think it was fairly late '89 when I first heard this album. I may have seen a video sometime in '88, but I was busy graduating from high school, going through Marine Corps boot camp, and adjusting to the culture shock of Camp Lejuene, North Carolina to have paid attention to much else that wasn't already on my radar in the 1988 timeframe. So not already being a Queensryche fan, this album definitely escaped my notice at the time it was released. Given the initial cold reception and long buildup before it finally exploded, I think that's understandable. And there was a ton of stuff out at that time from bands that I was actively following: Def Lep was still going strong on Hysteria, and there was a ton of other good stuff from '87 and early '88 that I was still spinning a lot, like Whitesnake and Y&T. Then right around the time I graduated, we got new albums from Bon Jovi (New Jersey), Cinderella (Long, Cold Winter), and Stryper (In God We Trust). So, yeah, Mindcrime didn't even register.
Fast forward a bit to a guy in my Marine Corps unit totally hyping the band and the album. He said it was "really deep music--the kind you have to think deeply about to really get." That sounded interesting. I borrowed the cassette from him and listened a bit. I remember the sound being pretty grating, even though there were definitely some cool parts. I don't think I listened to the entire album, but I listened to a good chunk of it and decided it just wasn't for me. I distinctly remember being intrigued by Suite Sister Mary, both because of the length and the intriguing title, with both its forebodingness and its punningness. But listening to it, it was just a bit offputting to me at that time.
Fast forward a bit more. I don't know how long it was, but I was at a club in Jacksonville with some buddies (the then-infamous Thunderbird--I now cringe when I think back on it). Rock/metal cover bands and up-and-comers would play there. In fact, I think Firehouse even played there before they hit it big. Anyhow, there was a pretty decent cover band playing, and they did a cover of I Don't Believe In Love. And it's kind of funny because, if the next series of events didn't play out exactly as it did, I'm not sure how long it would have taken me to finally notice this band. So, I noticed the song as a Queensryche song. And I thought it was pretty good. But I wasn't really playing close attention. Can't remember if me and my buddies were just chatting, or if we were trying to hit on some girls, or what, but the band were just sort of in the background. Then a little bit later, the singer made an announcement between songs, something along the lines of, "We don't normally do this, but there's a guy up here in the front that is stationed here, and he's a long way from home. [I think he might have been from Seattle in fact, but not sure] And he is a HUGE Queensryche fan and BEGGED us to do a Queensryche song. So since this is the only one we know, we're gonna play it again." So they played IDBIL again. This time, I paid attention. And this time, I got it. What a song. It REALLY hooked me and got stuck in my head.
After that gig, I went back to my buddy that had loaned me his tape and asked if I could make a copy. And I began listening. Songs like IDBIL, Breaking the Silence, and The Mission totally drew me in. I remember the summer of 1990, there were three albums I played nonstop, whether we were spending lazy days at the local beach, hanging out in the barracks, road tripping to Myrtle Beach, or whatever. Those were: Mindcrime, Slip of the Tongue (Whitesnake), and Ten (Y&T). It would still be awhile before I would start exploring the back catalogue and this band would, for the next decade+, become my favorite band. But this put me well on my way. (and, yes, I did eventually buy my own copy instead of just listening for free)
As for the album itself, what is so great about it is that it not only has a story that you can just get lost in and head-trip over, but it also has such deep, layered music that you can listen and listen, and still discover something new way down the road that you never heard/noticed before. Even though I have grown somewhat cold on the album over time (the songs are still great, but I feel like I've...I hate to say it because it sounds pretentious, but...outgrown the concept), I still hold it in high regard. Songs like IDBIL, The Mission, Breaking the Silence, and Eyes of a Stranger are just SO good. And even though I have heard them so much that I have felt burned out on them for a long time, I find that I still love them when I do take the opportunity to listen.
I suspect there will be a writeup for Livecrime after Empire because of the release order, so I'll hold off my comments on it until then.
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Quite simply the greatest album ever - in my top 50 I ranked it joint first with Images and Words and I can't really separate them.
The sound was perfect, the vocals perfect, cool riffs, and Suite SisterMary had my jaw on the floor.
Queensryche became my favourite band with this album, and the two that preceded it, taking over from Rush.
So many air guitar, drum and vocal moments :hefdaddy
That intro...
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I have bought this album more than any other. I have gifted it to people, bought The rereleases, special editions, the singles, the vcr. I have the ten inch album promo. Yeah, I'm a bit obsessed.
It needs a 5:1 remaster.
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I remember Kerrang saying it wasn't as good as Seventh Son, the story didn't hold together as well - which is complete bollocks.
I nearly firebombed their offices 😀
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A total masterpiece. Musically, it's compelling, energetic, full of great performances. The story works which is more than i can say about most concept albums IMHO.
Really, everything here is awesome.
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My all time number 1 and everything about it is just music perfection. I wouldn't change a thing on the album.
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p.s. regarding LIVEcrime -- yes, there will be a write-up. Empire next, then followed by one that will encapsulate both LIVEcrime and Building Empires (in that order). Made sense to cover both of them with one, after Empire.
Following that, there will be one for each of the following: Promised Land (and Promised Land CD-Rom), Hear in the Now Frontier, Q2k (and Live Evolution), Tribe (and Art of Live), Operation: Mindcrime II, Mindcrime at the Moore/Take Cover (size-wise, two for one shot here), American Soldier, Dedicated to Chaos, Queensryche (2013) and Condition Human. I am skipping F.U. (if I need to explain that one, you may be in the wrong thread :lol)
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I'd like to begin by heaping tons of praise on Samsara for the incredible quality of his write-ups. Between this thread and the Iron Maiden discography thread, the bar has been raised to incredible heights. I've been able to learn quite a bit of things that I didn't know about a couple of my favorite bands, lately. Not only have the threads been informative, but they have been so well written that I enjoy them, and look forward to each new entry.
I was one of the fortunate people to hear this album the day that it was released. My older brother that had first introduced me to QR had moved out of the house by this point, and showed up out of the blue one day to pick me up after school and take me to his apartment across town. I didn't think anything was odd about this until we got to his place, and he fired up his stereo without letting me see which cassette tape that he was going to put in. As soon as the voices started coming through the speakers he sat down next to me, and showed me the tape case. I can't say for sure, but I think that some of the wrinkles that I anticipate wearing on my face when I reach old age will have been the result of the shit-eating-grin that I wore for the next hour.
The music, while being different than anything that they had done before, was unmistakably QR. The production was a bit odd, and probably wouldn't have worked well for any other band under most circumstances, but it fit perfectly with this band, this album and this time. It took me a little while to immerse myself into the concept, but once it clicked I was really drawn in. On a side note, someone mentioned this album in competition with 7th son from Iron Maiden. It's not even fucking close. I love both bands, but 7th son isn't even in the same league from that standpoint.
The tour for this album would also be the first time I got to see the band live. I want to say that it was in either November, or December of 1988 at the Ohio Center in Columbus, Ohio. They were opening for Metallica. I was only about 15 years old at the time, and this would only be my second concert that I ever attended, but some of my memories of that show are quite vivid. We could have left after QR's set, and I would have been perfectly happy at the time.
This record stayed in heavy rotation for me over the next few years. I ate, shit, slept and generally lived with this album as a great deal of the music that I listened to for a significant period of time. I realize that I'm jumping ahead of things here, but when I seen them perform the album in full a few years later on the Building Empires Tour, I still consider that to be one of the greatest shows that I've ever witnessed. You can go back and watch the Livecrime dvd now, but there was absolutely nothing that compares to being there in person. To witness a band that's firing on all cylinders and taking the world by storm is a priceless experience.
The only down-side to this album is that in later days, the band ended up burning me out on it. Every time I'd see them live (with one great exception that we'll get to later in this thread) there would be some kind of reference to the album that gave me the impression that a great deal of the audience was only there to hear music from it, and the band knew it quite well. I've always been a fan of bands that take risks, and are willing to step out of their comfort zone on occasion. In fact, I think that it's safe to say that QR is the very reason that I admire this in music to begin with. No album from the EP to HitNF sounds anything like the one to precede it. Their willingness to take those risks left with CD, and they ended up relying on the past success of this album as a crutch for far too long afterwards.
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Love this album. Can't remember if I told this story already, but shortly after being introduced to Maiden my dad got me an MP3 player for Christmas preloaded with 5 songs. Two of them were Rock and Roll All Nite and The Trooper (from Rock In Rio I think). Can't remember the other ones, but the 5th was Eyes Of a Stranger. It was also the only song I wasn't familiar with, but my dad said they were a good band I might like. I thought Geoff Tate sounded a lot like Bruce Dickinson, which was enough to get me hooked.
I didn't actually listen to Mindcrime until much later though. Not sure why. I do remember being surprised that it was a Metal album, based on the cover. It was quite a departure from the comic book style of bands like Iron Maiden and Dio. When I did get around to listening to it I was starting to get into Pink Floyd and was really into concept albums. Operation Mindcrime was like a Metal Floyd album. It had the atmosphere, the drama, the narrative. It was like Iron Maiden meets Pink Floyd. Does it get better than that? This was a couple years before DT so Queensryche and this album were really my introduction to progressive metal, although I wasn't familiar with the term at the time.
Dunno what else to say that hasn't already been said. There are a couple points I want to bring up though. First of all, can we appreciate the amount of depth the band were able to pack into a single LP? I'm not sure I can think of any other rock operas (with a storyline and characters etc) that weren't double albums. Obviously Scenes From a Memory is one CD but it's double LP length.
Along similar lines, this is one of the best concept albums as far as individual songs go. A common complaint with albums like these is that there are a lot of "filler" tracks that only work in the context of the album. On Mindcrime there are only a few interlude tracks. The rest are great songs that would be top quality on any other album. Again, I can't think of any other rock operas that tell a coherent story but also have this many great individual songs. Seventh Son had the songs but fell short in the story department. Scenes From a Memory comes close but not quite IMO.
These writeups are fantastic btw. I definitely feel a level of friendly competition on trying to live up to the latest Queensryche entries with my Maiden thread.
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I was about to boast how high I had this in The TAC Top 50, but after checking the archived thread, seems I have it at 33 tied with Warning. :blush
This and Seventh Son came out weeks apart, I recall.
Even though, I was still a bit confused about RFO, I was too much of a fan of Warning/The EP to pass on the new QR album. This was a release day purchase. The spring of my sophomore year of college.
I was amazed at this phenomenal album. Yes, Queensryche was back!!!
This is one of my all time Top 3 Vocals, the others being Labrie on I&W, and Kiske on Keepers Pt.2. What's amazing about this album is that it's half over before you can take a breathe. Seriously, no album picks you up and carries you like this one.
My only gripe is that after The Needle Lies, the album looses major momentum, and then BAM, you're into Eyes Of A Stranger and then it's over. Like WTF just happened?? Where did it go??
Also notable is that Scott Rockenfield continued to amaze me with his drumming. I can literally feel the joy in his drumming. Really, only MP has ever made me feel that as well.
Saw them open for Def Leppard in Sept of '88, and then saw three of the shows they did with Metallica in '89.
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My only gripe is that after The Needle Lies, the album looses major momentum, and then BAM, you're into Eyes Of A Stranger and then it's over. Like WTF just happened?? Where did it go??
This is the only reason I put this album below Rage For Order. I Don't Believe in Love and Breaking the Silence are very below par QR songs, and it was obvious to me that after going full on for the concept for the first half of the album, they decided they needed a hit single, and tried to right one. This never goes well.
I also think that Eyes of a Stranger is fairly disjointed. The opening, and the mood of the main riff is perfect. But the verses sound like they've been pasted in from a different song. Still, it does rise above its flaws and makes for a pretty good album closer.
Suite Sister Mary is the single greatest song they've ever written. The Mission and Speak aren't far behind. In fact, I go so far as to say that Speak through SSM is the greatest 4 song run in the entire QR catalog..........and in fact, possibly on any album ever. But as a complete album, I think RFO is the slightly more consistent.
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I absolutely LOVE The Mission.
"Turn my life arrrrrrrrrrroooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddddddddd".
:metal
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Even though I agree with the comments that the album runs out of gas a little after Suite Sister Mary (how could it not given how great that run is from Speak to SMM?), this is still a great album. Definitely my 3rd favorite QR album, behind Promised Land and Rage for Order. And even though the whole band is great, Tate is the star of this record.
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Even though I agree with the comments that the album runs out of gas a little after Suite Sister Mary (how could it not given how great that run is from Speak to SMM?), this is still a great album.
Yes!
And even though the whole band is great, Tate is the star of this record.
Yes!
Definitely my 3rd favorite QR album, behind Promised Land and Rage for Order.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hWWe-ts2s&list=RDk5hWWe-ts2s#t=0
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I could write a lot of tl;dr texts about this record but almost everything has already been said.
One of the best records of all time. Tate in his absolute prime, was never better than this and sadly never will be. So rich, so powerful yet so emotional.
Great story that I can understand, not like a lot of other concept albums with more esoteric or metaphorical themes. Everything fits and helps develop the story. Like someone else has said Metal meets Pink Floyd (and O:M always reminded me heavily of The Wall, not music wise but concept and structure).
All songs are great but I have to say it: Suite Sister Mary is far from the best they've done. It fits the story and has some great parts, but as a whole it lacks some cohesiveness. Favorites probably Revolution Calling, Speak, I Don't Believe In Love and Eyes Of A Stranger.
PS: Although I said I understand the story, for a long time I thought that Nikki killed Mary himself in the act of passion. Still think this would be a cool twist to the story.
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My only gripe is that after The Needle Lies, the album looses major momentum, and then BAM, you're into Eyes Of A Stranger and then it's over. Like WTF just happened?? Where did it go??
This is the only reason I put this album below Rage For Order. I Don't Believe in Love and Breaking the Silence are very below par QR songs, and it was obvious to me that after going full on for the concept for the first half of the album, they decided they needed a hit single, and tried to right one. This never goes well.
I also think that Eyes of a Stranger is fairly disjointed. The opening, and the mood of the main riff is perfect. But the verses sound like they've been pasted in from a different song. Still, it does rise above its flaws and makes for a pretty good album closer.
Suite Sister Mary is the single greatest song they've ever written. The Mission and Speak aren't far behind. In fact, I go so far as to say that Speak through SSM is the greatest 4 song run in the entire QR catalog..........and in fact, possibly on any album ever. But as a complete album, I think RFO is the slightly more consistent.
No no no.
IDBIL and BTS poor? 😡
I guess you're not fans of Empire? These songs foreshadowed what was to come. Not epics but very fine songs.
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Easily still one of my all time, probably top 5 metal albums.
Everything about this fantastic record is already said, I can just add some personal experiences.
I've mentioned somewhere before that I've heard the title song played on the radio station over here when they were interviewed by Alfred Lagarde (a legendary pioneer hardrock/metal DJ over here) when they were still mixing the record in the Wisseloord Studio's in the Netherlands.
I was stupified how good it sounded. After reading another rave review in the aforementioned magazine OOR (back when it didn't suck) I knew I had to buy this upon release, and luckily I found it in my local record store. The magazine did mention the fug ugly record cover and that all the budget had probably gone to the sound production (and come on, we can all agree it's an UGLY cover, can't we? Well, it's Iconic now, so maybe not so ugly).
From getting home and putting the vinyl on and trying to read allong with the lyrics (which was pretty hard to do, due to the colourscheme and the small print) I was engrossed in the music, the story, the songs and Tate's classic performances. I mean, this album had it ALL. That's why it was and will Always be my alltime favourite Queensryche album. And that's why I hated Empire as much at the start. As a whole that didn't very much for me.
One mention about how even a small filler segueway song like Waiting for 22 was so awesome and emotional. I f'ing loved it.
I must add that I even heard Suite Sister Mary played on the radio once at night (Yes, the whole glorious thing, I think just after release) and I was totally flabbergasted and had goosebumps all over my arms when it finished. !
Took me some years to finally get Operation LiveCrime and watch it, but I was a bit disapointment with the flat sound on that for some reason, but we'll talk about that when we get to it!
'The Undergroooooooouuuunddd will rise and safe the world....we'll all stand proud....'
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Side One easily makes my list of Top 50 album sides.
Which brings up a question: anyone buy this on vinyl when it came out? 'I remember now'......recording my friend's CD onto a 60 minute cassette way back after listening to the album a few months after its release. Side One was fine, fast forwarding after 'The Mission'. Side Two.....I made the decision to cut 'Breaking The Silence' in order for it to fit (oh, the humanity!). 33 minutes on one vinyl side was certainly pushing things.
Moving ahead to the 2003 reissue with bonus tracks: 'Eyes of a Stranger', with its 'Anarchy Xtra' finish, should have been included. A great finish to a truly great album, whose lyrics still apply today.
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My only gripe is that after The Needle Lies, the album looses major momentum, and then BAM, you're into Eyes Of A Stranger and then it's over. Like WTF just happened?? Where did it go??
This is the only reason I put this album below Rage For Order. I Don't Believe in Love and Breaking the Silence are very below par QR songs, and it was obvious to me that after going full on for the concept for the first half of the album, they decided they needed a hit single, and tried to right one. This never goes well.
I also think that Eyes of a Stranger is fairly disjointed. The opening, and the mood of the main riff is perfect. But the verses sound like they've been pasted in from a different song. Still, it does rise above its flaws and makes for a pretty good album closer.
Suite Sister Mary is the single greatest song they've ever written. The Mission and Speak aren't far behind. In fact, I go so far as to say that Speak through SSM is the greatest 4 song run in the entire QR catalog..........and in fact, possibly on any album ever. But as a complete album, I think RFO is the slightly more consistent.
No no no.
IDBIL and BTS poor? 😡
I guess you're not fans of Empire? These songs foreshadowed what was to come. Not epics but very fine songs.
I HATED Empire when it first came out. I have since grown to like it...but I still can't stand JCW and ARN. Those are just fluff pieces. The album would be better without them. But we'll discuss that album when the time comes.
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The end of Suite Sister Mary is probably the best QR moment ever.
"You're miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine!!!"
Following by the reprise of that epic riff and the ending with the choir vocals.
:hefdaddy :hefdaddy
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The end of Suite Sister Mary is probably the best QR moment ever.
"You're miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine!!!"
Following by the reprise of that epic riff and the ending with the choir vocals.
:hefdaddy :hefdaddy
That's a contender.....but IDK.... That "The UN-DER-GRROOOOOOOOOUUUUUNNNDDDD (they'll say)" from The Mission is pretty freakin close.
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I wore this album down like my Dad's Playboy collection.
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Yup, I also heard putting this tape in the deck would cause one to grow hair on their palms.
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My palms were smooth after listening to this album.
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Just gave this album another listen and I don't get it. Like I stated earlier I only heard a few songs aside from the hits and O:M before the start of this thread; now after listening to the warning and rage those are much better then O:M in my opinion. The song writing isn't there.
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Jesus H! Ya fall behind in this thread for a bit, and it takes almost 2 hours to read 2.5 pages!
I'd like to begin by heaping tons of praise on Samsara for the incredible quality of his write-ups. Between this thread and the Iron Maiden discography thread, the bar has been raised to incredible heights. I've been able to learn quite a bit of things that I didn't know about a couple of my favorite bands, lately. Not only have the threads been informative, but they have been so well written that I enjoy them, and look forward to each new entry.
Ditto
I never new that Live in Tokyo (god, how many albums are actually called that!?!?!) was an official release. Listened off YT, and enjoyed it well enough. I'm not a huge fan of the early QR stuff (RFO-PL is where they are god-tier for me), so not a lot to comment.
Rage For Order
Man, I really wish I had got into QR chronologically. RFO came in my sequence of discovery after Empire and O:M for me, and I think my appreciation of those albums would have been much greater had I discovered RFO before them (and Warning before it) - being able to appreciate the 'growth' of the band in terms of writing and performance - which is weird for me to say, because Empire and O:M are both in my top 25 albums of all time! RFO is an absolutely stellar album, with no duds on it whatsoever. And I agree with Bosk... it aged very well for me - initially it was just pretty good, but now I consider it top shelf material.
I will say that this album has really aged well for me. For me, it's still miles behind Warming/O:M, but with each successive album QR put out after Empire, RFO continued to improve in the standings. I like it. A Lot.
Obvious statement is obvious.
Argh! Somebody needs to do a better job updating the Discography Tracker thread. I had no idea that this had started.
I added this when I last edited the OP - June 7th.
Operation:Mindcrime
Thinking back, this was probably what I would consider my first truly "progressive" metal album. I'd had some of the classic prog-rock stuff (Yes and Genesis), but I'd never heard anything like this before. It now stands as the #8 GOAT album on my list - and most of what I rank higher is because of what they mean to me personally and the impact they had on my music-listening life. If I was just to rank how "great" I consider the albums, I might just put it #2 or #3. Flawless in every way, and for as much as I love concept albums, I would say it's the best concept album of all time (although, only #2 in terms of my "favorite"). The story, flow, lyrics, writing, performance, diversity, melodies .... there is not a damn thing about this album that isn't perfect. I do not have enough superlatives for this album. Dat Suite Sister Mary riff.... goosebumps every single time.
I remember when I bought the album thinking that the cover was simultaneously the weirdest, most intriguing, and most bad-ass cover I'd ever seen - at least, at the time.
Agree completely with Mosh that all of the songs could stand alone on their own, and likely be one of the the best songs on any given album.
Samsara ... As for skipping F:U, just link wolfking's review. That sums it up perfectly. Page 11 of the "unofficial" Queensryche thread.
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Argh! Somebody needs to do a better job updating the Discography Tracker thread. I had no idea that this had started.
I added this when I last edited the OP - June 7th.
Editing the OP does not trigger a "new post in the thread" notice. One would still have to open The Discography Discussion Tracker Thread every day to see if it's been updated. It's easier if you add a post to The Discography Discussion Tracker Thread each time, because some of us follow threads via "Show new replies to your posts" or "Show unread posts since last visit".
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Just a quick reply to say I'm glad everyone is enjoying the thread and I appreciate the compliments. Thank you.
This is fun for me. My site -- www.anybodylistening.net -- is where I draw most of the info from (in fact, I am using these album write-ups to replace what I have already written on the site). The site is organized like a book -- a history divided into chapters, and an appendix with the discography, tour date archive (including individual gig pages), and a scrapbook with all those old 80s and 90s magazine article scans. Check it out when you have time.
Mosh -- dude, your Maiden thread is legendary. I just try to do my best to keep up with you! :metal
Have a great weekend everyone!
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Just gave this album another listen and I don't get it. Like I stated earlier I only heard a few songs aside from the hits and O:M before the start of this thread; now after listening to the warning and rage those are much better then O:M in my opinion. The song writing isn't there.
A vast majority of the songs I would classify on the surface as merely good (with the above average ones being Speak, Spreading the Disease, The Mission and Suite Sister Mary and Eyes of a Stranger), and to expand on what I said about Tate being the star of this album, if you put this album in the hands of a lesser vocalist, it would be nothing more than a good, solid album, but Tate elevates most of the songs with his singing. It's like, every song that rocks at all has the same guitar tones, similar musical vibe, etc., but Tate's vocal delivery carries the songs and the emotion of the story, not the music, in most of the songs, IMO.
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Just gave this album another listen and I don't get it. Like I stated earlier I only heard a few songs aside from the hits and O:M before the start of this thread; now after listening to the warning and rage those are much better then O:M in my opinion. The song writing isn't there.
A vast majority of the songs I would classify on the surface as merely good (with the above average ones being Speak, Spreading the Disease, The Mission and Suite Sister Mary and Eyes of a Stranger), and to expand on what I said about Tate being the star of this album, if you put this album in the hands of a lesser vocalist, it would be nothing more than a good, solid album, but Tate elevates most of the songs with his singing. It's like, every song that rocks at all has the same guitar tones, similar musical vibe, etc., but Tate's vocal delivery carries the songs and the emotion of the story, not the music, in most of the songs, IMO.
That's a really interesting perspective. I don't disagree on Tate -- his performance takes the record to a whole different level. But I do disagree on the quality of the songs. I think what Queensryche achieved on Mindcrime was coming to a happy place in regard to melding the style of their influences and original experimentation and sound into something that maintains an understated complexity, but is also appealing to a melodic ear on the radio at the time. The ultimate conclusion of that would be the next record, Empire, when the sound was warmer, but we'll get to that..
However, all that said, I think the other point that needs to be remembered were that the songs were all reliant on one another to drive the story. So it's not surprising that Tate's performance brings things to a higher level, because it was the story that drove the way the songs were written musically. Most songs are written musically first, and then lyrics are crafted (not all the time, but generally, and especially with QR). With Mindcrime, the lyrics weren't written first, but the story outline was -- the scenes were sketched out, which dictated the writing of the music.
For me, one of my favorites is probably one of the more radio-friendly on the record -- Breaking the Silence. That and I Don't Believe in Love (as I believe someone said above before me) really foreshadowed what would come in 1990...
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The Needle Lies is an underrated tune as well. That song is just straight pure metal!
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Just gave this album another listen and I don't get it. Like I stated earlier I only heard a few songs aside from the hits and O:M before the start of this thread; now after listening to the warning and rage those are much better then O:M in my opinion. The song writing isn't there.
It could be one of those "you had to be there at the time" things. You can't replicate the era around it and how groundbreaking and different it was from what everyone else was doing and we are thirty years later.
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The end of Suite Sister Mary is probably the best QR moment ever.
"You're miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine!!!"
Following by the reprise of that epic riff and the ending with the choir vocals.
:hefdaddy :hefdaddy
That's a contender.....but IDK.... That "The UN-DER-GRROOOOOOOOOUUUUUNNNDDDD (they'll say)" from The Mission is pretty freakin close.
It's those deep breaths because he's been running around the streets in the middle of Needle Lies that gets me every time, then he's off again :hefdaddy
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Operation: Mindcrime was my introduction to Queensryche. I heard the singles on the radio in the early 90s, but they were just another band on the radio. Same with Metallica. I wouldn't call myself a metal fan until 2004 when I discovered Iced Earth. I like to credit Fozzy for truly opening the door to Metal for me, but really, I owned a couple Megadeth albums before even knowing Chris Jericho had a band. In fact, I bought Megadeth's Risk in '99 after they played on WCW to introduce the return of Goldberg. In early 2004, I was introduced to both Iced Earth and Iron Maiden. I might have delved into Maiden a few years prior, but while driving with my step dad one day to work, we were listening to the radio and the DJ was talking about Maiden, and I asked what they sounded like or if "they sounded like Slayer", to which he replied, yes! I don't think he's heard much or any Slayer.
Anyway, come late 2004 my step dad bought tickets to Queensryche and took my brother and I on October 23 (I still have the ticket stub). The day prior I bought Operation: Mindcrime since they would be playing that in its entirety. I've only heard Eyes of a Stranger and probably I Don't believe in Love as those were the big singles of the album. We listened to the album on the way to the venue, but didn't finish it, and I don't think I listened to the album the day before although I could be wrong. Either way, my ears were still fresh. They played the hits first, and I remember my step dad commenting on the difference in the line up. He actually was a big fan of Queensryche and apparently was in attendance at the taping of Live in Tokyo. He also said he just missed Metallica and the band partied with his friends one night. Pretty sure his friends were just fucking with him. But he was a big metal fan, and owned a ton of cassettes and music video VHS tapes. I guess he grew out of that music 'cause before 2004, he showed no interest in it. In fact, it wasn't until after I started listening to Maiden that he bought himself Ed Hunter. Enough about him.
The concert was a lot of fun. I really liked the stage production, and the band sounded great. I couldn't tell you if Tate was shit or not compared to when he wasn't. He sounded good to me. I didn't notice anything off, although I didn't really like the rendition of Silent Lucidity, but I just wanted it to sound like the studio version. They played some newer songs as well that I don't think my step dad even recognized. I also remember as Mindcrime began, someone next to us was speaking along with the nurse. It was like I was in another dimension. I was a fan of Disturbed and Godsmack, Linkin Park and to a much lesser extent, Korn and the like. Even seeing a massive crowd singing along to Disturbed 2 years earlier wasn't the same as this Queensryche concert. I was delving into a whole new world, and one that would change my life. Would this have even happened had I not walked into that comic store one day as Iced Earth was playing? Would my step dad have eventually introduced us to the music he used to listen to that wasn't Fleetwood Mac or Led Zeppelin?
After the concert, not sure how long after, I bought Queensryche's back catalogue and Empire. Queen of the Ryche and Prophecy are awesome, but the other 3 songs, not so much. The Warning has some decent songs. Take Hold obviously. Rage for Order is weird. I did enjoy most of it, but they were experimenting heavy with that one. Operation: Mindcrime is a masterpiece and sits firmly in my top 10 albums of all time. Hell, it might even be in the top 5. I haven't messed with that in a long time. It took a long time for Empire as an album to click. That one had a lot more singles, and ones I thoroughly enjoyed, but the deep cuts took some time. I didn't bother with anything after Empire, although I did give Promise Land a listen. Outside of Bridge, I didn't like it. Reading how much worse they'd get after that didn't give me any reason to continue exploring the band. Being such a huge fan of Mindcrime I, I was hyped for II when it was announced. Unfortunately it was garbage. Even though it was the same length as I, it just felt so much shorter, and the songs didn't go anywhere nor were they memorable. O:M I zipped by, but every song had a purpose, and had your full attention. I didn't like The Needle Lies for a very long time, but I can say now that there are no bad songs on the album.
Operation: Mindcrime is brilliant.
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The end of Suite Sister Mary is probably the best QR moment ever.
"You're miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine!!!"
Following by the reprise of that epic riff and the ending with the choir vocals.
:hefdaddy :hefdaddy
That's a contender.....but IDK.... That "The UN-DER-GRROOOOOOOOOUUUUUNNNDDDD (they'll say)" from The Mission is pretty freakin close.
It's those deep breaths because he's been running around the streets in the middle of Needle Lies that gets me every time, then he's off again :hefdaddy
You know, interestingly, I didn't really even much notice The Needle Lies for a long time. I mean, I knew every word and every note of it from listening to Mindcrime so much. But still, it never stood out or really grabbed my attention. What changed that was the live performance. MAN, this song cooks live. And that pause they throw in after the solo before restarting it again REALLY pumps up the crowd. Love it.
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Just gave this album another listen and I don't get it. Like I stated earlier I only heard a few songs aside from the hits and O:M before the start of this thread; now after listening to the warning and rage those are much better then O:M in my opinion. The song writing isn't there.
A vast majority of the songs I would classify on the surface as merely good (with the above average ones being Speak, Spreading the Disease, The Mission and Suite Sister Mary and Eyes of a Stranger), and to expand on what I said about Tate being the star of this album, if you put this album in the hands of a lesser vocalist, it would be nothing more than a good, solid album, but Tate elevates most of the songs with his singing. It's like, every song that rocks at all has the same guitar tones, similar musical vibe, etc., but Tate's vocal delivery carries the songs and the emotion of the story, not the music, in most of the songs, IMO.
That's a really interesting perspective. I don't disagree on Tate -- his performance takes the record to a whole different level. But I do disagree on the quality of the songs. I think what Queensryche achieved on Mindcrime was coming to a happy place in regard to melding the style of their influences and original experimentation and sound into something that maintains an understated complexity, but is also appealing to a melodic ear on the radio at the time. The ultimate conclusion of that would be the next record, Empire, when the sound was warmer, but we'll get to that..
However, all that said, I think the other point that needs to be remembered were that the songs were all reliant on one another to drive the story. So it's not surprising that Tate's performance brings things to a higher level, because it was the story that drove the way the songs were written musically. Most songs are written musically first, and then lyrics are crafted (not all the time, but generally, and especially with QR). With Mindcrime, the lyrics weren't written first, but the story outline was -- the scenes were sketched out, which dictated the writing of the music.
I should add that my perspective in no way was meant to belittle the rest of the band or what they did on this record; they did a damn fine job. I just think that Tate is the star and takes what would have otherwise been just another good record to levels it never would have gotten to without him.
As big a douche as Tate is, his performance on this album, and the other albums prior to 1997, is something no one can ever take away from him.
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Just gave this album another listen and I don't get it. Like I stated earlier I only heard a few songs aside from the hits and O:M before the start of this thread; now after listening to the warning and rage those are much better then O:M in my opinion. The song writing isn't there.
It could be one of those "you had to be there at the time" things. You can't replicate the era around it and how groundbreaking and different it was from what everyone else was doing and we are thirty years later.
I was thinking this could be it as well, but I just don't see how that rationale holds up. Great music is great music - whether current, a year later, a decade later, or whatever. I didn't get "in" to Zeppelin until 1987. 16 years may have "aged" their music and sound (relative to what was current in 1987), but it was still great music. How many bands/albums of the 70s, 80s and 90s still get "discovered" today? The only way this argument holds up is if someone's musical tastes have changed - IE, this kind of prog metal would have appealed 28 years ago, but tastes have changed and it doesn't now.
I don't know if that's the case with Reaper (and dude, please don't take any of this as an attack). I didn't listen to much Dio back in the day, but when I did finally get listening to a few years back, my reaction to Holy Diver wasn't "meh, this is ok".
I get it when albums don't 'click' ... Keepers of the Seven Keys didn't do much for me (puts on flame suit specifically for Tim). It's just kinda surprising when it doesn't click for such a monumentally ground breaking and universally revered album.
TASTES!
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Just gave this album another listen and I don't get it. Like I stated earlier I only heard a few songs aside from the hits and O:M before the start of this thread; now after listening to the warning and rage those are much better then O:M in my opinion. The song writing isn't there.
It could be one of those "you had to be there at the time" things. You can't replicate the era around it and how groundbreaking and different it was from what everyone else was doing and we are thirty years later.
I was thinking this could be it as well, but I just don't see how that rationale holds up. Great music is great music - whether current, a year later, a decade later, or whatever. I didn't get "in" to Zeppelin until 1987. 16 years may have "aged" their music and sound (relative to what was current in 1987), but it was still great music. How many bands/albums of the 70s, 80s and 90s still get "discovered" today? The only way this argument holds up is if someone's musical tastes have changed - IE, this kind of prog metal would have appealed 28 years ago, but tastes have changed and it doesn't now.
I don't know if that's the case with Reaper (and dude, please don't take any of this as an attack). I didn't listen to much Dio back in the day, but when I did finally get listening to a few years back, my reaction to Holy Diver wasn't "meh, this is ok".
I get it when albums don't 'click' ... Keepers of the Seven Keys didn't do much for me (puts on flame suit specifically for Tim). It's just kinda surprising when it doesn't click for such a monumentally ground breaking and universally revered album.
TASTES!
Actually, something that may have helped some of us foggies that were there at the time was the political climate, and how some of the story line approached that. While much of it is still relevant today, I think that societies' way of viewing it was evolving at the time and the story nails it. The message helped draw us in more than if it had been a collection of standard rock songs from a lyrical standpoint.
You've got a needle freak that likes banging a nun, and shooting politicians. What's not to like? :biggrin:
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Jingle I can completely agree with you that great music is great music. O:M isn't a terrible record, the vocals are great and some of the riff age is good I just don't really connect with it. I was excited to see this thread because I wanted to give QR a chance again and I feel like Warning really hit me harder than O:M. I'm still pumped to give the rest of the albums a listen as they come.
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^ and that's totally cool. I totally understand when things don't click, or have that "wow" factor ... I just can't always chalk it up to "you had to be there at the time". Some music just doesn't click, even when it is great, or when you'd think it would/should click (for me, that's Haken... just don't get it). Powerslave does make a good point, that some of the lyrics are late 80s specific - "while we can pay for wars in South America". I always assumed that was a Contra reference.
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Apologies if someone's sensibilites are touched on this, but I remember some years ago "updating" the lyrics and singing in my head "I'm tired of all this bullshit they keep selling me on TV about the terrorists plan" and "But now the holy dollar rules everybody's lives, gotta invade Iraq, doesn't matter who dies".
If at all, it works within the metric of the verse.
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Apologies if someone's sensibilites are touched on this, but I remember some years ago "updating" the lyrics and singing in my head "I'm tired of all this bullshit they keep selling me on TV about the terrorists plan" and "But now the holy dollar rules everybody's lives, gotta invade Iraq, doesn't matter who dies".
If at all, it works within the metric of the verse.
At the risk of getting a bit too political here, in light of what's potentially going on these days between Trump and Russia, I've been debating whether or not the original line is now relevant once again. Although Russia isn't a communist country any more, I think. Pretty sure it's an oligarchy? But yeah, "terrorists plan" works just as well today too.
~
Anywho, Operation: Mindcrime... I've had a bit of a love-hate relationship with this jewel over the years. It's such a perfect album to me. It's inspired a lot of my own creative thinking as a storyteller in writing and cinema. The songs are some of the greatest works ever conceived in the history of metal.
... And I just had to discover it so early on in my days as a metalhead in the middle of high school about nine years ago. :lol
Don't get me wrong- practically all the bands and albums I listened to over the course of 2007-2008 were iconic staples of heavy metal (ranging from Dio to Black Sabbath to Metallica to Iron Maiden to Megadeth, et cetera). Mindcrime was just one of the members of the pack at that time... but when I went back and realized the full extent of Queensryche's genius from the days of the EP up to Promised Land in my community college days, I think I started to resent the album a bit.
"How dare I start off with the masterpiece?! No, clearly it gets better somewhere else!!! It has to!" Such was my drama. :biggrin:
And to be perfectly frank, there's elements on other early albums that I do like more about them than on Mindcrime. For example, the Cyber Gothic mood and musical complexity of Rage for Order is so unique and inspiring to me. That strange blend of reality and fantasy appeal to me a tad bit more than the considerably more gritty narrative of Mindcrime (at least at a surface level- the gothic tone is still very much present in it). Yet the pacing on Rage for Order isn't as seamless to me as Mindcrime is. RfO is a considerably shorter album, but some parts of it drag a bit. In contrast, Mindcrime speeds right by, even with the additional length of time.
I don't really see Mindcrime as being much of a prog metal album. At least, not in comparison to something like Rage for Order, or Fates Warning's Perfect Symmetry or Voivod's Nothingface. But it's a different sort of prog.
Samsara once said to me and some other folks back at his old forum (the Breakdown Room) that he saw the run of Operation: Mindcrime to Promised Land as being a shifting merge of Iron Maiden and Pink Floyd: For Mindcrime, the Maiden elements took precedence while the Floydian aspects acted more as accentuations. Empire then is a fifty-fifty combination of the two, while Promised Land shows the band finally being more driven by its Floydian tastes and showing elements of Maiden here and there. And to that comparison, I full-heartedly agree.
So yeah. Hail to you, Oh Mighty Mindcrime. I love you to death, but why did you have to spoil the rest of the band's work for me ever so slightly? :biggrin: :tup
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I get it when albums don't 'click' ... Keepers of the Seven Keys didn't do much for me (puts on flame suit specifically for Tim).
:flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:
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I know its a ways off, but I kind of like Mindcrime II which I almost feel guilty for after reading that it was pretty much just tate and stone and the band was pretty much excluded
Now high school aged me back in 2006 knew absolutely none of that. All I knew was that one of my favorite bands just released a sequel to one of my favorite albums and I listened to it quite a bit. Part One is still way better of course, but still for what it is. I like OM II
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Seeing Mindcrime and Mindcrime II back to back live, second row, was a blast. And the sequel was kinda cool here and there. Of course I enjoyed Mindcrime "a little" more.
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My favourite album of all time.
There's nothing close to filler on there. Almost all of the full songs could've been singles (except Suite Sister Mary and possibly not Spreading The Disease) and the closest thing to a song on the album that doesn't either set the scene or really drive the story along is Breaking The Silence, which is an ace song anyway.
I flip-flopped over the years about whether or not I believe the story to be really strong or a bit hackneyed, but in the end I came to the conclusion that you have to look at the story in the context of when the album was released, not how it may sometimes seem 25/30 years later.
Everything is perfectly balanced for the band at this point. There's just the right amount of theatre for Tate, just the right amount of a commercial sheen to the songwriting, just the right amount of a progressive depth without getting in the face of the song, great guitar solos throughout and still plenty of Whip credits despite DeGarmo clearly leading the writing for the album.
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I know its a ways off, but I kind of like Mindcrime II which I almost feel guilty for after reading that it was pretty much just tate and stone and the band was pretty much excluded
Now high school aged me back in 2006 knew absolutely none of that. All I knew was that one of my favorite bands just released a sequel to one of my favorite albums and I listened to it quite a bit. Part One is still way better of course, but still for what it is. I like OM II
I don't want to get too far ahead of the thread, and I'll elaborate later, but I'll just say this: There is a lot to like on that album. I think that, minus a song or two here and there, the first 2/3 or so is actually pretty good. But the overall problems I have that I can't get past in taking it as an entire album are:
1. The last 1/3 or so, both in terms of music AND story are really, really bad.
2. Mindcrime just didn't need a sequel. And if the band wanted to do one, Tate shouldn't have been so blatantly revisionist in retelling history to try to make it sound like it was planned all along when it clearly wasn't.
But more on that later.
Mindcrime!!! To this day, I still almost involuntarily make little Mindcrime inside jokes. Like if someone picks up a phone call and their tone of voice in saying "Hello?" sounds remotely like Nikki, I'll whisper, "Mindcrime!" Or stuff like this: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=28146.msg1252072#msg1252072
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To this day.....I am incapable of rolling down the electric window in my car without saying, "Kill her. That's all you have to do."
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On Valentine's Day, I don't Believe in Love is my first troll choice to post on Facebook :biggrin:
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I first heard Mindcrime I back when I was like 13. I remember hearing "I don't believe in love" and was like "wait, you feel pain associated with love, how is that possible?" It was so confusing to my young, naive and idealistic mind.
Now as an adult, I truly understand that song.
Overall, I pretty much love every song on OM-I Its just truly fantastic
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To this day.....I am incapable of rolling down the electric window in my car without saying, "Kill her. That's all you have to do."
Doing it on a manual window doesn't quite have the same effect :-[
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To this day.....I am incapable of rolling down the electric window in my car without saying, "Kill her. That's all you have to do."
Not just me then.
I also left an answer machine message on my mates old phone with Geoff's Empire quote...
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You guys are not alone!
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A school friend lent me this on cassette soon after it came out. I put in in my Walkman and set off on my evening paper round. As I approached the end of the first side it started to rain. Then Suite Sister Mary came on with matching rain sound effects... Was totally blown away.
Remains an all time favourite to me. What impresses me now is how well they pulled off that melodramatic tone and have it not descend into farce. Tate is near-hysterical throughout and it just picks you up and drags you along with it.
It had something to say AND is concise. (CoughTheAstonishingCough)
Love this and the Maiden thread.
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For those following the thread -- I'm working on Empire. I'm about halfway through it. Eyeing the end of the week. I need to research a couple things and I've been busy. :)
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For those following the thread -- I'm working on Empire. I'm about halfway through it. Eyeing the end of the week. I need to research a couple things and I've been busy. :)
Excuses are for losers.
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For those following the thread -- I'm working on Empire. I'm about halfway through it. Eyeing the end of the week. I need to research a couple things and I've been busy. :)
Excuses are for losers.
:lol
Well...
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For those following the thread -- I'm working on Empire the last good Queensryche album. I'm about halfway through it. Eyeing the end of the week. I need to research a couple things and I've been busy. :)
No problem. Might as well go out with a bang!
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For those following the thread -- I'm working on Empire the last good Queensryche album. I'm about halfway through it. Eyeing the end of the week. I need to research a couple things and I've been busy. :)
No problem. Might as well go out with a bang!
Your distaste in PL is understandable, but misplaced. ;) A ton more good music to go. Been discovering a lot of good in all QR records, including Dedicated to Crap...err..Chaos. But we'll get there.
I'm basically done with Empire now. Just need to clean it up and get pics. I'm figuring tomorrow.
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All good! :) Can't wait for Empire!
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Can't you feel it coming ...?
Can't you hear it calling ...?
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Can't you feel it coming ...?
Can't you hear it calling ...?
:clap:
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This album is a masterpiece. When I was an early teen discovering metal Queensryche obviously came up when getting into Priest, Sabbath, Maiden, Helloween etc. OM blew me away, it was something a bit different, but the sound of the whole album was majestic and captivating with the songs to boot. Such a brilliant, perfect concept album. Hearing that voice too for the first time was just a revelation. Love the story, love the songs, love the performances and came in at number 7 in my top 50.
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Empire
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c2/Queensryche_-_Empire_cover.jpg)
Lead vocals: Geoff Tate
Lead and rhythm guitar, background vocals – Chris DeGarmo
Lead and rhythm guitar – Michael Wilton
Bass guitar and background vocals – Eddie Jackson
Drums and percussion – Scott Rockenfield
Overview
Fresh off the success of Operation: Mindcrime, Queensr˙che did a 180-degree turn from the path of metal and and concepts, and went commercial hard rock (at least Queensryche's version of it) with Empire. Instead of having a lyrical theme(s) (such as The Warning or Rage for Order), or be connected musically and lyrically with a story (Operation: Mindcrime), Queensr˙che focused on writing standalone tunes. There was a deliberate eye toward gaining a broader audience, but the band maintained a firm grasp on its musical integrity.
Released on Aug. 20, 1990 (Sept. 4 in other parts of the world), Empire was a true crossover record for Queensryche, and EMI Records marketed the hell out of it, shooting videos for the album's six singles: "Empire," "Silent Lucidity," "Best I Can," "Jet City Woman," "Another Rainy Night (Without You)" and "Anybody Listening?" The strategy paid off in a life-altering way for Queensryche, as the group went from a cult metal band to hard rock icons in just over six months. Simply put, it was the right record at the right time: Empire ultimately sold 3.5 million copies worldwide.
Metal fans at the time were a little taken aback by the more polished sound from Queensryche, particularly of the songs after “Empire” that were “less heavy.” Although some judged the band a sellout for the shift, a closer examination of the record quieted many of those initial fears. Queensryche also continued championing its mantra of never repeating itself from record-to-record – a wise public relations statement that also had a ring of truth to it and helped the group sustain a fan base as it continued to evolve.
The Songs
Despite its crossover appeal, Empire is distinctly Queensryche in every regard. While the songs stand solidly on their own merits instead of being linked together, the lyrics were carefully crafted to tackle various political, societal, and personal topics. These include gun control (Best I Can), America's drug problem (Empire), environmental issues (Resistance), personal relationships (The Thin Line, Jet City Woman, Another Rainy Night, Hand on Heart, One and Only), and homelessness (Della Brown). The mostly serious bent on the lyrics further cemented Queensryche's nickname as the “thinking man's metal band.”
Musically, the band's sound is noticeably warmer and more enveloping than the harsher and more metallic sound of previous Queensryche records. The songs are still progressive (to a degree), but they breathe more. In an interview in 2002, Tate and DeGarmo remarked how it was a big change for drummer Scott Rockenfield, who on Operation: Mindcrime perhaps played the most aggressive of his career, and with Empire, was tasked to slow everything down.
Seattleites have often said you can hear the essence of the Emerald City throughout the songs, and as someone who spends a lot of time in Seattle, I can hear it and tend to agree. It's more of a vibe and feeling, but it is certainly there to my ears. While DeGarmo and Wilton's trademark twin guitar work is still present throughout Empire, the songs have a more streamlined and open feel to them, providing a lush soundscape for Tate to embrace his mid-range vocals and deliver haunting, yet beautiful melody lines.
One of the finest (in this writer's opinion) example of this is the epic closer, “Anybody Listening?” The intro-verse-verse-chorus-solo-verse-chorus-chorus-outro solo format is fairly typical, but the combination of acoustic and electric guitars, with the rhythm section coming in during the choruses helps punch forward Tate's inspiring lyric lines and powerful melody to create a dramatic and memorable tune.
The oddball song of the record is ironically its biggest hit, “Silent Lucidity.” Originally, the song wasn't even going to be on the album. DeGarmo had written it, but initially hesitated to submit it. It tells a timeless story, not just about dream control, but the relationship between a young child and their parent and protector at a young age. The influence of Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour on DeGarmo shines through on the song, but the band didn't think it fit with the other songs on Empire. Producer Peter Collins and engineer/mixer James “Jimbo” Barton heard the potential in the cut, however, and made sure the track made the album, and it went on to become Queensryche's most famous song.
Empire had a few b-sides as well. Some may remember a tune called “Last Time in Paris,” that the band played live during one stretch of the tour in support of the album. That song, along with “The Thin Line,” were submitted to those producing the movie The Adventures of Ford Fairlane, starring Andrew Dice Clay, for possible inclusion on the soundtrack. The producers were told they could pick one of the two for the film, and they selected “Last Time in Paris,” noting (according to DeGarmo) that “The Thin Line” was “too dark.” So, “Last Time in Paris” became a soundtrack song, and a fairly popular b-side for Queensryche (it still gets played on Sirius/XM's Hair Nation channel regularly).
Queensryche's cover of “Scarborough Fair” by Simon and Garfunkel, which was recorded during the Rage for Order sessions, was finally released as a b-side (on the "Empire" single) on this album cycle. There weren't any other original completed tracks from the demo sessions. There were some instrumental jams and the usual slightly different initial versions of the songs, but for the most part, all the tunes the band completed for the record were used.
The one gem most fans get a kick out of hearing is the demo version of “The Thin Line” that includes Tate playing the saxophone. The arrangement and lyrics to this version are a bit different, and reminiscent of the Rage for Order time period. Tate takes a lengthy sax solo at approximately the same basic spot where the twin guitars of DeGarmo and Wilton have the solo on the album version.
"The Thin Line" (sax version) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxlWdMEElH8
Interesting note: “Another Rainy Night (Without You)” marks the songwriting debut of bassist Eddie Jackson. This was the first song he was ever credited on with Queensr˙che. In addition, the band made not one, but two different versions of the video for this song. More on that when we get to Building Empires...
The Empire Singles
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-lasttimeinparis.jpg) (https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-empire.jpg)(https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-silentlucidity.jpg) (https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-bestican.jpg)(https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-jetcitywoman.jpg) (https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-anotherrainynight.jpg)(https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-anybodylistening.jpg)
Recording
Empire was recorded in spring 1990 in two different locations: Vancouver Studios in Vancouver, Canada, and Triad Studios in Seattle. In addition to the aforementioned Peter Collins and Jimbo Barton, Paul Northfield, and Tom Hall were also involved in the recording of the Empire album. Orchestration was once again handled by Michael Kamen, who took care of the strings on “Silent Lucidity.” Finally, former Tate bandmate Randy Gane leaves the voicemail message prior to the start of the “Empire” song, forever immortalizing him as the “two ton, heavy thing” guy.
Interesting fact: Jason Slater (Operation: Mindcrime II producer and primary songwriter) said the Empire album was used by a number of producers and engineers (both in-house and private) to “test rooms” at various recording studios because of how stellar the mix and overall sound was. (Slater was an in-house engineer for Warner Bros. Before going out on his own.)
As popular as Empire became, not everyone in the band was confident about its prospects prior to release. According to an interview conducted by Malcolm Dome in 1990, but only published in 2014, DeGarmo had his doubts about Empire and the future of the band. Titled “Queensryche: The Dark Empire,” DeGarmo reveals to Dome his frustration with his bandmates and uncertainty about what they had produced.
“Whenever we finish a record, I think it's time to leave. Or we should split up,” DeGarmo told Dome. “I am drained, and fed up. I don't have the energy to deal with the other guys. I get annoyed with them all, because I feel they've let me down. But then, I also think I've let them down. Is that the way all musicians think? It's that love/hate thing we have, isn't it? Empire is maybe the worst album we've ever made, or the best. I can't judge it.”
See https://anybodylistening.net/5.html for more.
Versions
Empire was originally issued on vinyl, CD, and cassette. Empire was remastered and re-released on CD with three bonus tracks in 2003. This version, however, is mastered very hot and is red lined. From an audiophile perspective, it is suggested that those without a copy of Empire, or simply need a replacement, seek out the original 1990 version. The three bonus tracks consist of the aforementioned “Last Time in Paris,” “Scarborough Fair,” and a song called “Dirty Lil Secret.”
Note: “Dirty Lil Secret” was not recorded or written during the Empire period. It is a b-side for Queensryche's next studio album, Promised Land, and will be covered when we get to that record. It is this author's opinion it was simply added on to the Empire remaster for space reasons (and it has a similar vibe to “Last Time in Paris”).
In addition, a 20th anniversary edition of Empire was released in 2010. It contains two discs. The first is the 2003 remastered version of the record. The second features live tracks from the Empire album, recorded at Queensryche's 1990 performance in London, along with the gig's encore (including a rare live version of “Hand on Heart” that was dropped from the set after November 1990). The centerpiece of the show, the performance of Operation: Mindcrime, is available on the 25th anniversary release of the Operation: Mindcrime album (discussed previously).
Empire was also released in DVD-A format, featuring a 5.1 mix of the album. Various editions of Empire on vinyl also exist, with the recent ones featuring the poor 2003 version mix of the record.
Support Tour
The "Building Empires" tour was Queensryche's first full-fledged album support campaign where the band would truly be headliners. It kicked off in Europe in November 1990, and didn't conclude until early 1992 – a span of more than 180 shows. The almost 2.5-hour spectacle featured the Operation: Mindcrime album performed in its entirety, along with a good dose of the Empire record and a couple of older tracks. Using a huge stage, laser show, synchronized video and other amenities, Queensryche concerts were no longer simple gigs. They were multi-media productions. We'll discuss the tour more once we get to Operation: LIVEcrime and Building Empires...
Once Queensryche got off the road, Empire continued to sell, but the band then focused on performing various one-off gigs and award shows through 1992. Most notably, Queensryche performed an acoustic set for MTV Unplugged on April 27, 1992. The aired performance included renditions of “I Will Remember” and “The Killing Words” from Rage for Order, “Silent Lucidity” and “Della Brown” from Empire and “The Lady Wore Black” from the EP. Unaired footage of the show reveals multiple takes of all five songs, plus renditions of “Anybody Listening?” from Empire, covers of Neil Young’s “Rockin’ in the Free World,” and Simon & Garfunkel’s “Scarborough Fair,” and a humorous teaser of “Suite Sister Mary” off of Operation: Mindcrime.
Queensryche also appeared at the Rock the Environment benefit show at The Gorge, in George, Wash., on June 6, 1992. The band played an assortment of material, including an electric version of “Anybody Listening?” and a rendition of “No Sanctuary” from The Warning. They concluded the evening by performing in a jam session with members of fellow Seattle natives Alice in Chains and Heart. The show would completely cap the support cycle for the Empire record, and it would be more than two years down the road before Queensryche released another studio album and toured.
Samsara's top-three from Empire: Anybody Listening?, Empire, Jet City Woman
Next up: Operation: LIVEcrime and Building Empires...
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Great write up, Brian!
When I think back at Empire's release, what I remember most is how much Queensryche changed it up AGAIN. They were now really masters of the unexpected. The metal of Warning, the WTF of RFO, and the near perfection and energy of O:M. And now they released something else that made me think.
On one hand, it's unmistakably Queensryche. The vocals, musicianship were all there. But it had a much more commercial sound. 90-91 was a weird time for 80's bands...Iron Maiden released easily their worst album. Metallica and Helloween released sub par albums, Gary Moore went blues, and Dio and Queensryche each released albums that made me pause. I would never guess that more than 25 years later, I would consider Empire and Lock UP The Wolves as the last great albums each band made.
The other thing about this commercial sound was that I remember being very concerned about what Queensryche would do next. Could a return to hard rock, a la RFO to O:M be next, or would they continue down a different "lighter" path in the 90's. More on that later I guess.
I saw them in July of 1991 at the Providence Civic Center. They had Suicidal Tendencies opening..an odd pairing. They would play O:M in its entirety on this tour so that was cool.
They would come back and play the Boston Garden in the fall, but for some reason, I didn't bother going. Aside from Scott Rockenfield, I didn't find them a great live band, and I didn't really care to go into Boston to see the same show again. I kind of regret not going.
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Excellent read! :tup
I have to confess that, to me, Mindcrime is the Jupiter of the "musical constellation" of Queensryche for me - all the other albums combined do not make up the "mass", in this case my liking and devotion, I have for that single album.
Having said that, I consider Empire one of their best anyway, and in a weird way I kinda like all the easier songs - not that the album has duds, but I'd name as my favorites Best I Can, Empire, Jet City Woman, Another Rainy Night and the absolutely gorgeous Silent Lucidity. It was the final song when I saw them playing both Mndcrimes back to back (other encore tunes were Jet City Woman and Empire, I knew the tour had two encore songs so hearing Geoff asking "...one more?" and them starting Silent Lucidity was fantastic) so I can proudly say I heard it live and it was great!
It was the right mix of simpler stuff and more complex tunes, and I'd agree that it may have seemed a sellout to many people. On the other hand it probably helped many newer fans to discover retroactively Mindcrime, so that's all good. And I think the tour for this, with the band at their prime and the whole Mindcrime played, must have been something to behold!
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This was my introduction to Queensryche, sometime in the mid 90's. I received my drivers license in 1996 and only had a car with an AM/FM radio. No tape player, and certainly no CD player, so I was stuck listening to rock radio. I had heard Jet City Woman and Another Rainy Night on Chicago's Loop radio station and loved it. At the same time, I was just becoming a tremendous fan of a local band called Radakka, who were my true introduction to melodic metal. So a song like Another Rainy Night, with the smooth, melodic riffs and vocals was right up my alley.
I believe I bought Empire on my own, and at the time, asked my mom for Mindcrime for Christmas. She told me a funny story about how she ran into another neighborhood mom in the cd section at Best Buy, and both were looking for Queensryche albums for their kids. My friend's mom was instructed, "mom, it's QueenSRYCHE, not Queen...don't buy a Queen album" :lol
Naturally, I loved the singles and radio songs at first, but really took to some of the album tracks after becoming a big QR fan. Resistance is amazing, and The Thin Line has one of my favorite Tate performances. I love how smooth his voice sounds when it's lower - those vocals are awesome.
Luckily, they started playing more of these songs again after the Q2K tour, when they only played the 3 hits On later tours, I saw them play The Thin Line and Another Rainy Night, which was amazing for me - finally hearing them play the song that truly got me into the band.
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On later tours, I saw them play The Thin Line and Another Rainy Night, which was amazing for me - finally hearing them play the song that truly got me into the band.
Isn't that always great? once you know fully a band you may have other favorite songs, but the one that started it all has always a special place in one's heart and it's always great to be reminded of it.
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On the Tribe headline tour in fall 2003, they did The Thin Line, including a bit of Tate sax. (He did this on his first solo tour too.) Good stuff. They also played Anybody Listening a bit on that tour, which was cool. I remember asking Michael that day if they would do it (this was the Westbury, Long Island gig), and he said he didn't think so, but they'd do it in soundcheck. And so I saw it in soundcheck. It was the first time I saw it performed, and while Chris wasn't there, it was still really cool.
One of my personal favorites from the record is Della Brown, which is Queensryche's take on the blues. That song always seems to be a dividing one among fans. I love it though. It has such great guitar work in it. I feel it is criminally underrated. On the 1997 HITNF tour, I saw them twice. The first time was in New Jersey, and Tate was still getting over blowing out his voice. So we got the shortened "B" set that included Della Brown. Then a few days later, they played Long Island, and they were back doing the original length "A" set that didn't have Della Brown. So it was cool that I got a couple different sets. Della was a big highlight and was the first time I had seen it played.
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Della Brown is amazing, and man what a picture Tate is able to create with the lyrics and his delivery.
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Great write up Brian.
Mindcrime was and still is my favourite album of all time so the follow up was always in for a hard time, but I loved it from the start. It helped that I was a melodic rock fan anyway, so the slight direction change was only taking them into an area I was comfortable with.
It is a phenomenal sounding album, and again I've bought so many copies of this album. I have that DVD audio disc even though I've never had a surround sound system to play it on.
I never realised that the answer machine message was Randy Gane - I always thought it was Tate.
I love the cover of Scarborough Fair. A lesson in how to make a cover your own, and put your stamp on it.
Anybody Listening is the standout for me. Top 5 song, probably.
I loved this band back then, but it was downhill from here.
Interesting read regarding DeGarmo's thoughts, and explains how he was able to walk away. He certainly sounds like the tortured artist.
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On the 1997 HITNF tour, I saw them twice. The first time was in New Jersey, and Tate was still getting over blowing out his voice.
Getting way ahead of things here, but since you mentioned it I thought that would bring it up. I was at the show in Columbus, Ohio that I think that he blew his voice out at. They were playing an outdoor venue called Polaris Amphitheater, and a great many repairs had recently been done to the place because of a riot that happened not long before hand. Ozzfest had rolled through town and Ozzy decided not to come out and play that night due to illness. The crowd lost their shit, and ended up looting the place starting fires ect. ect...
New wood that was put up in the sound barrier at the back end of the place could easily be seen, and some other things stood out as looking like repairs. I had my now ex-wife with me, and one of my buddies from work. When we walked through the ticket gate I remember telling her to stay very close to me. QR obviously wasn't going to attract the same kind of crowd that an Ozzfest show would, but what had happened recently was still fresh in everyone's mind. Then QR came out and only played five songs before leaving the stage. You could tell that there was something very wrong with Geoff. Chris came back out and talked to the crowd about GT's voice, and apologized but the mood started to turn a little ugly rather quickly. Needless to say, we got the fuck out of there in a hurry. Unfortunately, that was my last memory of seeing CD on stage.
Back to Empire, I remember going out and getting the album the day it was released. I had read an interview with CD and MW in one of the guitar magazines a month or so before the release, and I was really pumped up about the new album. And I fuckin' hated it on the first few listens. In fact, I'd say that I didn't care about it for the first two or three months that it was out. I'm not sure what eventually brought me around to liking the record, but it took awhile. In fact, Hand on Heart, and One and Only have never been very "listenable" to me. I like HoH better between the two songs, but there are times that I'm more than willing to skip them while listening to the album.
Initially, I think that it sounded like the band trying to go on a "cash grab", and in a way I still feel that way about it. It was quite obviously an attempt to write more "radio friendly" songs, but it was very well done despite that. In retrospect, I wouldn't have it any other way because I think that this album is essential QR, but I wasn't quite prepared for it at the time.
I don't have any particular favorites that stand out much more than any of the other songs on the record, but if you held a gun to my head I'd probably choose The Thin Line and Della Brown as my favorites.
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Great job with the write up!
This is a clear example of Queensryche trying to broaden their fanbase with radio friendly songs, but I think the album straddles the line perfectly between going too radio friendly and still keeping their hard rock credibility.
The title track kicks major ass and while Silent Lucidity is overplayed, it doesn't take away from the fact that it's an outstanding song.
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On the 1997 HITNF tour, I saw them twice. The first time was in New Jersey, and Tate was still getting over blowing out his voice.
Getting way ahead of things here, but since you mentioned it I thought that would bring it up. I was at the show in Columbus, Ohio that I think that he blew his voice out at. They were playing an outdoor venue called Polaris Amphitheater, and a great many repairs had recently been done to the place because of a riot that happened not long before hand. Ozzfest had rolled through town and Ozzy decided not to come out and play that night due to illness. The crowd lost their shit, and ended up looting the place starting fires ect. ect...
New wood that was put up in the sound barrier at the back end of the place could easily be seen, and some other things stood out as looking like repairs. I had my now ex-wife with me, and one of my buddies from work. When we walked through the ticket gate I remember telling her to stay very close to me. QR obviously wasn't going to attract the same kind of crowd that an Ozzfest show would, but what had happened recently was still fresh in everyone's mind. Then QR came out and only played five songs before leaving the stage. You could tell that there was something very wrong with Geoff. Chris came back out and talked to the crowd about GT's voice, and apologized but the mood started to turn a little ugly rather quickly. Needless to say, we got the fuck out of there in a hurry. Unfortunately, that was my last memory of seeing CD on stage.
Back to Empire, I remember going out and getting the album the day it was released. I had read an interview with CD and MW in one of the guitar magazines a month or so before the release, and I was really pumped up about the new album. And I fuckin' hated it on the first few listens. In fact, I'd say that I didn't care about it for the first two or three months that it was out. I'm not sure what eventually brought me around to liking the record, but it took awhile. In fact, Hand on Heart, and One and Only have never been very "listenable" to me. I like HoH better between the two songs, but there are times that I'm more than willing to skip them while listening to the album.
Initially, I think that it sounded like the band trying to go on a "cash grab", and in a way I still feel that way about it. It was quite obviously an attempt to write more "radio friendly" songs, but it was very well done despite that. In retrospect, I wouldn't have it any other way because I think that this album is essential QR, but I wasn't quite prepared for it at the time.
I don't have any particular favorites that stand out much more than any of the other songs on the record, but if you held a gun to my head I'd probably choose The Thin Line and Della Brown as my favorites.
I have that Columbus show on CD! One of the very few times QR cancelled a gig. There's no way to verify this, but it may have been the first time (for those kinds of health reasons).
As for Empire, it's funny. We all (meaning the majority of the QR fan base) praise them for being ahead of the game, but honestly, they really were only ahead of the game and truly original on one record: Rage for Order. And even then, they followed trends just like everyone basically did. But some how, we all tried to say they never did. But they certainly did and Empire is no exception. It's totally a move toward commercial, polished hard rock.
I don't begrudge them that move, however. EVERYONE did it then. Metallica, Megadeth, everyone. For Queensryche, it worked, just because of the abilities of the guys, and the wide variety of people that were Queensryche fans. But Empire absolutely was pointed at trying to capture as big an audience as possible.
On the other hand, you also have to start looking (nowadays, this is easy, since it is all in retrospect) at DeGarmo's maturity as a songwriter. They got their most experimental with Rage, did the big concept, and now, with Empire, you see DeGarmo more focusing more on warmth and song structure.
I think DeGarmo himself said it best when he and Tate were interviewed on the Empire DVD-A back in 2002...summarizing, DeGarmo said: We stripped it down to have an guitar and a vocal. And if the song didn't work in some way just with that, there was a problem, and we have to go back and look at it.
Empire was really a natural evolution for DeGarmo and Tate. Wilton, interesting, has a good amount of credits on the record, but if you notice, much of them are just big riff songs (Empire, Resistance). Wilton was still in that metal head space (I think) to a degree, but DeGarmo was starting to branch out a bit more. And that appealed to Tate, and as we'll see with the next couple of records, Wilton sort of phased out of a lot of the writing...
Great job with the write up!
This is a clear example of Queensryche trying to broaden their fanbase with radio friendly songs, but I think the album straddles the line perfectly between going too radio friendly and still keeping their hard rock credibility.
The title track kicks major ass and while Silent Lucidity is overplayed, it doesn't take away from the fact that it's an outstanding song.
Thanks man!
I can't really listen to SL or Jet City much these days because of how overplayed they are. Empire is starting to get that way too. I find myself gravitating toward Anybody Listening (my favorite anyway), Della, Best I Can, Resistance...
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Not to be contrarian, but I kind of gently push back on the notion that Empire was a knowing commercial move and/or a cash grab. If there are interviews to this effect, so be it, but to me, it was more of an organic move that paid off rather than some conscious effort to alienate the fan base.
It is a tie between O:M and this for my favorite QR record, and sadly the last I would hold in high regard. I think it got it's popularity because of a) the single (and all the gymnastics that went along with it, like the "live with an orchestra" nonsense) as well as b) the absolute pristine sound of that record. Samsara noted "Gilmour" and "Floyd" in his writeup, and I see a whole shit ton of Pink Floyd on that record. Lush, immersive, and warm, and that all lends itself to the reaction it got, moreso than the prog metal of O:M and what I consider to be the harsher, metallic sound of the two records that precede that.
Empire is just a well-crafted, well-played, perfect sounding metal record, and that resonated with people. I think this is a case (one of relatively few, I'll give you) of a band reaping the rewards they have earned rather than actively going to seek those rewards and having it pay off (Stay Hungry would be an example of this). For what it's worth, I feel the same way about Metallica's The Black Album. I don't at all consider that record a sell-out or pandering to the commercial masses. It just so happens that as a reaction to what came before, it did strike a nerve with the masses.
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I think when a band releases an album that is SO accessible, especially in Metallica and Queensryche's cases, that follows albums that were so unique and anything but accessible, being a "sell out" is a natural reaction for a fan to have.
I didn't find Empire to be a sell out kind of record or a cash grab or whatever. It felt like it had enough oomph (not sure what word I'm looking for..integrity maybe). My concern always was where would QR go from "here". Same concern I had with Metallica at the time. And Iron Maiden.
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Not to be contrarian, but I kind of gently push back on the notion that Empire was a knowing commercial move and/or a cash grab. If there are interviews to this effect, so be it, but to me, it was more of an organic move that paid off rather than some conscious effort to alienate the fan base.
As I explained a little above, it's a bit of both. I think to deny that it was a commercial move to broaden the fan base is to deny the obvious staring you in the face. On the other hand, as I also said, DeGarmo was trending that way anyway. So call it a hybrid. Empire, as mentioned in the write-up, was the right record, at the right time, to both be popular, and for the band as an artistic unit.
It is a tie between O:M and this for my favorite QR record, and sadly the last I would hold in high regard. I think it got it's popularity because of a) the single (and all the gymnastics that went along with it, like the "live with an orchestra" nonsense) as well as b) the absolute pristine sound of that record. Samsara noted "Gilmour" and "Floyd" in his writeup, and I see a whole shit ton of Pink Floyd on that record. Lush, immersive, and warm, and that all lends itself to the reaction it got, moreso than the prog metal of O:M and what I consider to be the harsher, metallic sound of the two records that precede that.
Empire is just a well-crafted, well-played, perfect sounding metal record, and that resonated with people. I think this is a case (one of relatively few, I'll give you) of a band reaping the rewards they have earned rather than actively going to seek those rewards and having it pay off (Stay Hungry would be an example of this). For what it's worth, I feel the same way about Metallica's The Black Album. I don't at all consider that record a sell-out or pandering to the commercial masses. It just so happens that as a reaction to what came before, it did strike a nerve with the masses.
Not sure I can fully agree with the bolded. You're right to a degree. However, it is pretty well documented (I thought) that by bringing Bob Rock in, the band pretty much wanted commercial success, and he was the guy to get them there. As for Empire, again, you're right to a degree, they are reaping the rewards from a lot of the work that came beforehand. But those rewards, in my opinion, would have been much more limited had they followed Mindcrime with a heavier record. Queensryche knew what it was doing, in my view. They just made sure to straddle the line really well to keep their options open, and their integrity intact...
I didn't find Empire to be a sell out kind of record or a cash grab or whatever. It felt like it had enough oomph (not sure what word I'm looking for..integrity maybe). My concern always was where would QR go from "here". Same concern I had with Metallica at the time. And Iron Maiden.
It does have that "oomph" you are talking about for sure. But I also think it was carefully crafted to give the best of both worlds. It was a natural evolution, but I think they also saw the commercial popularity and wanted to seize that while still maintaining credibility (which is why the lyrical content balance on the record is likely key, as is just enough musical complexity).
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Time was running out on Queensryche. Empire would've had a much larger impact had it been released in 1988.
Mindcrime was not heavy metal, was not hair metal, was not thrash, was not all that progressive per se. It was just good solid hard rock. No where to really compartmentalize it in 1988.
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Samsara: great post as usual. Not arguing, just discussing, but (and you'd have no way to know this) my view of art is a little different than most. I believe the artists' vision is the only thing that matters. I can only say "I like this" or "I don't like this". The only way you can say "good" or "bad" is in the distance the final product got from the artist's vision.
To that end, if James Hetfield wanted to put out the closest thing he could to an AC/DC record, and did so, and oh-by-the-way, it went to number one and sold 30 million copies (sound familiar?) then it's an artistic statement and of pure integrity. If Hetfield wanted to put out the sickest, heaviest, most vile metal record of all time, but ended up putting out The Black Album (which, while great, is not that), then that is selling out.
It's why I have a problem with artists - won't name names - that are playing arenas to middle aged couples on date night while wearing "Iron Maiden" concert shirts. That's not cool, that's showing that your music isn't where your heart is.
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Not to be contrarian, but I kind of gently push back on the notion that Empire was a knowing commercial move and/or a cash grab. If there are interviews to this effect, so be it, but to me, it was more of an organic move that paid off rather than some conscious effort to alienate the fan base.
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that they were trying to alienate the fan base. If I gave that impression then I apologize.
However, I'm not sure that they could listen to the songs that they were producing for the record and not recognize that they were much more commercial friendly. I think that we can all agree that they are still very well written songs from any standpoint, but they are all still a huge change from the songs that are more commercial friendly that were on OM as well. Breaking the Silence, I don't believe in Love ect. ect...
My feelings about the record have evolved over time as I've matured. I was still a teen when this record came out. At the time I was beginning to explore prog a great deal more (I was a huge Gabriel era Genesis fan at that point in time), and I was a little suspect of commercially successful music. The displeasure that I felt with 80's pop music for the most part had jaded me by that time, and I was leary of anything that got played on the radio.
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Empire is an album that I never get tired of spinning and that says a lot.
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Time was running out on Queensryche. Empire would've had a much larger impact had it been released in 1988.
Mindcrime was not heavy metal, was not hair metal, was not thrash, was not all that progressive per se. It was just good solid hard rock. No where to really compartmentalize it in 1988.
Really great statement. Because that's the thing with Queensryche. For sake of argument, let go of the heavy metal/hard rock monikers. With Rage, they were ahead of their time. With Mindcrime, I think it can be argued that they were right in the wheelhouse, maybe slightly highbrow because of the concept. With Empire, they hit with it right at the last high point for commercial guitar-driven rock before the more less polished form hit big. But following Empire, they were BEHIND the times a bit, and it plagued them ever since.
Samsara: great post as usual. Not arguing, just discussing, but (and you'd have no way to know this) my view of art is a little different than most. I believe the artists' vision is the only thing that matters. I can only say "I like this" or "I don't like this". The only way you can say "good" or "bad" is in the distance the final product got from the artist's vision.
To that end, if James Hetfield wanted to put out the closest thing he could to an AC/DC record, and did so, and oh-by-the-way, it went to number one and sold 30 million copies (sound familiar?) then it's an artistic statement and of pure integrity. If Hetfield wanted to put out the sickest, heaviest, most vile metal record of all time, but ended up putting out The Black Album (which, while great, is not that), then that is selling out.
It's why I have a problem with artists - won't name names - that are playing arenas to middle aged couples on date night while wearing "Iron Maiden" concert shirts. That's not cool, that's showing that your music isn't where your heart is.
After reading your posts now for a while, I do understand where you are coming from. And logically, I get your line of thinking. We disagree, I guess, because for me, it's the thought pattern behind how those decisions were made, and art that was created, come into play. And to be honest, none of us really knows, as we're not jacked into DeGarmo's or Hetfield's brains at the point where they moved forward with their muse to write the music.
But our difference (you and I) on how we view it, is that I believe the reason for the vision is the driving factor. You (I think) believe the vision itself is all that really matters. And if I am correct in that, I totally respect it. I just simply don't agree, and it makes (as you no doubt will agree -- ha ha ha) discussion a bit more difficult, because I think more people align with my perspective on the reason for the vision and line of thinking developing the vision as a driving point, rather than a more stark "vision is the ultimate factor" perspective you have. To be honest, it's helped me understand you more, knowing that, if I indeed understand it correctly.
Anyway, regardless, Empire was huge, and for damn good reasons. :metal
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Not to be contrarian, but I kind of gently push back on the notion that Empire was a knowing commercial move and/or a cash grab. If there are interviews to this effect, so be it, but to me, it was more of an organic move that paid off rather than some conscious effort to alienate the fan base.
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that they were trying to alienate the fan base. If I gave that impression then I apologize.
However, I'm not sure that they could listen to the songs that they were producing for the record and not recognize that they were much more commercial friendly. I think that we can all agree that they are still very well written songs from any standpoint, but they are all still a huge change from the songs that are more commercial friendly that were on OM as well. Breaking the Silence, I don't believe in Love ect. ect...
My feelings about the record have evolved over time as I've matured. I was still a teen when this record came out. At the time I was beginning to explore prog a great deal more (I was a huge Gabriel era Genesis fan at that point in time), and I was a little suspect of commercially successful music. The displeasure that I felt with 80's pop music for the most part had jaded me by that time, and I was leary of anything that got played on the radio.
Well, two things. One, I'm a Night Ranger fan, so "commercially successful music" never bothered me at all. Two, I was (and am) a prog fan as well, so put it in this context: Marillion had Misplaced Childhood in '85, a concept much like (in structure) O:M. And they had a random, MASSIVE hit from it. Then came Clutching At Straws, a much darker, more mid-tempo record, with the obligatory hit single - Incommunicado, Sugar Mice, take your pick - and yet it wasn't a sellout, in my mind. It was just the logical extension of a band that wasn't going to repeat themselves. I very much viewed Empire in that frame of reference, as if the album was a lusher version of O:M and broken into discrete songs not a suite.
It didn't hurt that I played the SHIT out of that record (and still do). I'm with King on this one.
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After reading your posts now for a while, I do understand where you are coming from. And logically, I get your line of thinking. We disagree, I guess, because for me, it's the thought pattern behind how those decisions were made, and art that was created, come into play. And to be honest, none of us really knows, as we're not jacked into DeGarmo's or Hetfield's brains at the point where they moved forward with their muse to write the music.
But our difference (you and I) on how we view it, is that I believe the reason for the vision is the driving factor. You (I think) believe the vision itself is all that really matters. And if I am correct in that, I totally respect it. I just simply don't agree, and it makes (as you no doubt will agree -- ha ha ha) discussion a bit more difficult, because I think more people align with my perspective on the reason for the vision and line of thinking developing the vision as a driving point, rather than a more stark "vision is the ultimate factor" perspective you have. To be honest, it's helped me understand you more, knowing that, if I indeed understand it correctly.
Brother, you have me pegged spot on and I agree with what you wrote (including the thought that probably more people adhere to your way of viewing this than mine). But I'm resigned to that, and it makes for good conversation! Thanks!
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I don't remember Clutching At Straws producing a hit. Don't think I saw anything on either MTV or the radio.
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Empire is an album that I never get tired of spinning and that says a lot.
It just sounds MASSIVE. I have a fairly expensive sound system in my car. I put on Empire the other day, cranked it, and it just is so perfectly mixed and mastered, balance-wise. And the warmth of the record just makes it stand out. Mindcrime is well mixed, but because it is colder, it sounds thinner. I never get tired of listening to Empire. I skip a few tracks nowadays, just out of killing them for years, but it is an amazing piece of music. Goes to show when you have the right songs, with the right performances, at the right time, with the right production team and budget...man how cool must it have been it to make records back then.
Brother, you have me pegged spot on and I agree with what you wrote (including the thought that probably more people adhere to your way of viewing this than mine). But I'm resigned to that, and it makes for good conversation! Thanks!
:tup :metal
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It does sound awesome. And I think that means something.
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I don't remember Clutching At Straws producing a hit. Don't think I saw anything on either MTV or the radio.
Fair point; certainly no hits like "Kayleigh" or "Silent Lucidity". I just meant that both Incommunicado and Sugar Mice kind of stood out from the rest of the record (moreso Incommunicado).
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I enjoyed yet another write up Brian - good stuff!
For me personally, I remember that era well. By that time, I had become a big fan as I mentioned earlier, so I waited with baited breath for their new album. I remember Last Time in Paris getting a lot of airplay at the time (I think around the same time Don Dokken's Up From the Ashes was getting a lot of airplay too) and I loved the track. While it was different from O:M, that didn't phase me at all, any more than RFO and the EP were different from O:M - I loved it all.
However, the first few times I heard Empire (the song), it took a little while for me to get into it. It just struck me as a bit strange, and I couldn't put my finger on why. In any case, there was a massive music store that I remember had a huge display in the front window, preparing us fans for QR's upcoming new album. But the album cover was just soooo....simple. I didn't like it. Just very weird to me. The tri-ryche itself was cool, but I hated how it was so pixellated, and then the letters to "Empire" were in a weird building-block type of style. It just didn't seem right for a band like QR, especially given all the other album art they had up to that point (aside from the debut EP).
Nonetheless, I picked up the album soon after it was released and dug right into it. For the most part, I really liked everything on it. But for me, to this day, I've never been a big fan of Jet City Woman or Another Rainy Night - neither of them have ever done much for me, and with the former getting so much overplay, I won't mind if I never hear that song again. Silent Lucidity has become much the same way (overplay) altho I really enjoyed it initially. The two songs that really stand out to me as favorites, aside from the title track and Anybody Listening are Hand on Heart and One and Only. In particular I love everything about One and Only, both musically and lyrically. To me it's a shame that it's such an underrated track.
Finally, I remember being hyped to see QR live. And then one of my cousins just had to get married on the same day in the upper peninsula of Michigan! D'oh! Even more frustrating when I found out later that the show I would've gone to (Milwaukee) was one of the shows they filmed. Still one of my greatest regrets in terms of shows I missed. Ah well.
edit: Forgot to mention that I was surprised/disappointed to find that Last Time in Paris wasn't on Empire, but I eventually got over that too! :P
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But the album cover was just soooo....simple. I didn't like it. Just very weird to me. The tri-ryche itself was cool, but I hated how it was so pixellated, and then the letters to "Empire" were in a weird building-block type of style.
Yeah, the cover is kinda horrible. Luckily just with Iron Maiden's Dance of Death the music behind said cover is way better :D
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I don't remember Clutching At Straws producing a hit. Don't think I saw anything on either MTV or the radio.
Fair point; certainly no hits like "Kayleigh" or "Silent Lucidity". I just meant that both Incommunicado and Sugar Mice kind of stood out from the rest of the record (moreso Incommunicado).
Just me being an ass. ;D
@ Scott..Hand On Heart has really aged well. Not a fan of One And Only though.
Anybody Listening is awesome though.
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Just me being an ass. ;D
Fair point;
Saved you the trouble, man! ;D
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I enjoyed yet another write up Brian - good stuff!
Thanks Scott!
For me personally, I remember that era well. By that time, I had become a big fan as I mentioned earlier, so I waited with baited breath for their new album. I remember Last Time in Paris getting a lot of airplay at the time (I think around the same time Don Dokken's Up From the Ashes was getting a lot of airplay too) and I loved the track. While it was different from O:M, that didn't phase me at all, any more than RFO and the EP were different from O:M - I loved it all.
However, the first few times I heard Empire (the song), it took a little while for me to get into it. It just struck me as a bit strange, and I couldn't put my finger on why. In any case, there was a massive music store that I remember had a huge display in the front window, preparing us fans for QR's upcoming new album. But the album cover was just soooo....simple. I didn't like it. Just very weird to me. The tri-ryche itself was cool, but I hated how it was so pixellated, and then the letters to "Empire" were in a weird building-block type of style. It just didn't seem right for a band like QR, especially given all the other album art they had up to that point (aside from the debut EP).
Nonetheless, I picked up the album soon after it was released and dug right into it. For the most part, I really liked everything on it. But for me, to this day, I've never been a big fan of Jet City Woman or Another Rainy Night - neither of them have ever done much for me, and with the former getting so much overplay, I won't mind if I never hear that song again. Silent Lucidity has become much the same way (overplay) altho I really enjoyed it initially. The two songs that really stand out to me as favorites, aside from the title track and Anybody Listening are Hand on Heart and One and Only. In particular I love everything about One and Only, both musically and lyrically. To me it's a shame that it's such an underrated track.
Finally, I remember being hyped to see QR live. And then one of my cousins just had to get married on the same day in the upper peninsula of Michigan! D'oh! Even more frustrating when I found out later that the show I would've gone to (Milwaukee) was one of the shows they filmed. Still one of my greatest regrets in terms of shows I missed. Ah well.
edit: Forgot to mention that I was surprised/disappointed to find that Last Time in Paris wasn't on Empire, but I eventually got over that too! :P
Cool story. See, I had no idea "Last Time in Paris' existed. I had never heard it once, and didn't until well into the 1990s. And I agree about "One and Only." Great tune. One of the few after the EP that are credited to DeGarmo/Wilton alone.
My story with EMPIRE is a little personal, but it meant a lot to me. So, if you have followed my posts, you know I discovered QR in summer 1987 with Rage, became a massive fan with Mindcrime. Well, in June 1990, my family was completely uprooted and we moved to rural Pennsylvania. Suffice it to say, a kid who turned 14, from Long Island, now in the middle of Pennsylvania, having to start anew (again). It was a difficult time. The whole summer was brutal. But I kept waiting for news on Queensryche. And then, one day, I remember an MTV announcement that they'd be debuting the new video, "Empire," from Queensryche. It was like gold (it was the little things then).
I remember waiting by the TV, and finally seeing the video and hearing "my band" again, with something new, that I immediately loved with no hesitation. It was like a ray of light in a really difficult time for me. We lost cable shortly after that (wouldn't have it again until 1991, I think), but I managed to record the song on a tape, with an old tape recorder I had held against the TV speaker. It was like gold, and really held me over during a difficult period. That was all I had. I started 9th grade, and as you can imagine, some kid whose family was poor, starting school at a tough age with people who thought I talked funny, it was tough. We moved back to Long Island about a month into 9th grade. Spent like two months in one town, and then we settled in the town I'd graduate from right before Christmas. Thankfully, it was school district that I had been in previously. It was now Christmas 1990.
My parents were able to get me a single CD/cassette stereo boom box (AIWA brand, as I remember), and two CDs for Christmas. I got Empire and The Simpsons. The latter obviously was what it was, but YES, FINALLY, my own copy of Empire, on CD (my first CD). My Aunt got me Mindcrime (I had that on cassette) on CD that Christmas as well.
But I'll never forget just how much joy knowing Queensryche had another album out, and the first song being so dark and bad ass, brought me during a tough stretch for my fam. And when I finally got settled that year, and into 1991, it was nice to be surrounded by other kids who dug Queensryche just as much as me. Most of it due to Empire, but I didn't care. The record was an ice breaker for me, and a bit of a savior.
Fast forward to the end of that school year, and everyone was asking me if I was going to see Queensryche at Nassau Coliseum in July 1991. I wasn't. I was so bummed out. My parents wouldn't let me go, and although I was 15 by the time the show rolled around, they just wouldn't budge. It was a major downer when we started school in September 1991, in 10th grade, watching all my buddies walk around in Empire tour shirts and talking about how amazing the show was, and how the record was killer, and Mindcrime spectacular. Although it'd be another four years, my mom realized the error and made it up to me (by then the fam was in a little better position). But I'll share that and my thoughts on PL when we get to that record...
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Awesome story!. Never knew you were in Pennsylvania for a bit.
Too bad you couldn't go to the show. I remember the days when my parents wouldn't let me go.
The Simpsons?? :lol
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=50458.0
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Great story, Sam! Without going into great detail, I can say that one of the reasons that I'm still on this earth is in great part due to music. It's been there when nothing else seemingly has. Every range of emotion can and does get expressed. I think that this is especially true when you're a fan of music with progressive tendencies. I'd be the last one to try to speak for the forum as a whole, but I'm willing to bet that almost every member of this place could relate to your story in one way or another.
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Listening to Empire right now. Such a great record.
Empire was the first record I was waiting for after becoming a fan. I remember taping Headbanger's Ball to see the video for Empire. I also remember my parents not letting me buy it right away for some reason (well, I don't think they were really a fan of the story of Mindcrime) and I think I ended up waiting until after my 13th birthday to get it. Once I got it, I'm pretty sure I wore that cassette out. I remember telling my brother Silent Lucidity would be a huge hit, and since he wasn't a QR fan in the slightest, he disagreed, calling the song Violent Stupidity ::). He was ten at the time, and big into Motley Crue, so what did he know? Anyway, I still enjoy listening to this record, and I think it's a great example of how a band can be accessible without selling out.
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But the album cover was just soooo....simple. I didn't like it. Just very weird to me. The tri-ryche itself was cool, but I hated how it was so pixellated, and then the letters to "Empire" were in a weird building-block type of style.
Yeah, the cover is kinda horrible. Luckily just with Iron Maiden's Dance of Death the music behind said cover is way better :D
I always liked the cover, in an understated way, quite classy and sci fi (at least for the time). At least it was meant to be pixelated and not just a cheap knock off.
I have some sort of promo cd with a 3D pop up version of the cover, which I've never seen anywhere else.
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Silent Lucidity was my introduction to Queensryche, but I think it was still a couple years before I bought the CD, thanks to a friend's wife who loved them and always had them on when I was at their place.
To me, Empire is a great collection of songs. It doesn't flow like some of their other albums - you could almost reassemble most of the album randomly and the running order would still work - but that's okay. Della Brown is one of their most underrated songs ever, and the title track and Anybody Listening? are hard to beat.
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Great writeup.
Love this album. Sometimes I have a hard time deciding whether I like Mindcrime or Empire better. Mindcrime has the full album experience, but Empire is just slightly more consistent. The only song I don't really care for is One And Only.
Della Brown is great. I dig the minimalist vibe, just a great groove and some of Tate's most immersive lyrics. I suppose Silent Lucidity is the other "controversial" tune, but I love that one too. I wasn't sure what to think of it at first, but it quickly grew on me.
Lots of talk about the Pink Floyd influence, which is deserved, but what about Rush? I hear a lot of Rush on this album, especially in the first two tracks. Similar rhythmic parts, similar bass driven grooves, similar keyboard sounds. I hear Pink Floyd on all their albums, but this is the first time I hear a lot of Rush too.
This is one of the few albums where the singles and the deep cuts are equally good. I love all the singles. Already talked about Silent Lucidity, but the other 5 I never tire of, even though a few of them are somewhat overplayed.
Interesting that Metallica is being brought up, I never considered that these came out around the same time. I hate The Black Album though. I wasn't there, so I didn't have any connection to the band or any sort of loyalty to their thrash roots, I just don't think the songs are good. The more commercial sound fit Queensryche better IMO. They already had a knack for great songwriting and were showing signs of it as early as Rage For Order. It's difficult to argue against it being an intentional move in a more commercial direction (the fact that the producers had to persuade the band to include Silent Lucidity because of its commercial potential is hard to ignore) but sometimes the best commercial decision is also the best artistic one, and I would say that's the case with Empire.
Also glad you brought up the remaster Samsara. I was wondering if it was just me, but all the Queensryche remasters sound awful to me. I'm not even really an audiophile and I hear it. One of the worst remastering jobs out there, even the Iron Maiden remasters were better.
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Della Brown is great. I dig the minimalist vibe,
I suppose we'll discuss this with HITNF but this backs up the fact that HITNF's problem was the songs themselves, and NOT the approach they took.
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Just heard Empire for the first time. I knew Silent Lucidity and Jet City Woman but haven't heard any of the other songs. There are some really killer songs on here and the record is the best so far. Della Brown is easily the best song on the album IMO. I think the only thing that irked me was the spoken part in "Empire" the song.
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'Anybody Listening?' from MTV 'Unplugged'. Great to see the camaraderie before and after (sad to think of how things changed).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DBVql6-ZXw
A band at their zenith. They could kick axe and melodic, 'easy' and melodic, with a style and image that was looked at in such a positive light by the public.
The performance by 'Geoff Tate: Voices and 'No' whistles': I'm a big Freddie Mercury fan, as well as Steve Perry (up through 'Frontiers'). O:M and this album put him on their level to me (and made me wish Queen would have put out something like this during the 80s).
Briefly, saw them in Auburn Hills for this tour (superb). The album is in my Top 25, and the music is timeless. Hasn't changed a bit. Back when it came out, I did have to remove 'One And Only', and, instead of ending the A side of a cassette, I had to move the title track to the B side of the 60 minute tape for the album to fit (still no car CD player). Certainly gave it a different 'feel' then, and just seemed as a better fit there than as an album side closer.
Did anyone buy the vinyl version? I never think of this as being a double album.
I think back to the days when I'd crank up 'Best I Can' on my way to work at 545 AM, try to maintain that attitude when things weren't going so well, and then, at a much lower volume, play 'Anybody Listening?' or 'Silent Lucidity' to relax to on my way home at 10 PM.
Oh, and the waves and seagulls don't get the credit they deserve!
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Just heard Empire for the first time. I knew Silent Lucidity and Jet City Woman but haven't heard any of the other songs. There are some really killer songs on here and the record is the best so far. Della Brown is easily the best song on the album IMO. I think the only thing that irked me was the spoken part in "Empire" the song.
Not to go off topic, but wouldn't it be great to hear any album you love for the first time again?
Empire is great. I remember getting the cassette and replaying Silent Lucidity numerous times, it was just so gorgeous. Unfortunately radio killed that feeling. Anybody Listening may be my favorite QR song of all time.
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'Anybody Listening?' from MTV 'Unplugged'. Great to see the camaraderie before and after (sad to think of how things changed).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DBVql6-ZXw
Cool. Other than watching the airing of the original cut version on MTV, I have never ever gone back and watched any of this again. I see the full show is on youtube. I will have to hit this tomorrow.
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Anybody Listening may be my favorite QR song of all time.
Mine, too. It's neck and neck and neck with Suite Sister Mary and Promised Land.
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Roads To Madness
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Roads To Madness
That wouldn't make my Queensryche top 40.
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Roads To Madness
That wouldn't make my Queensryche top 40.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ca/e2/c7/cae2c7ddcaeeba16f43421526324851d--geoff-tate-music-bands.jpg)
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Anybody Listening may be my favorite QR song of all time.
Mine, too. It's neck and neck and neck with Suite Sister Mary and Promised Land.
Cool to see love for the song Promised Land. I literally don't listen to QR anymore, but still on occasion listen to that particular song. My fav of theirs.
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Anybody Listening may be my favorite QR song of all time.
Mine, too. It's neck and neck and neck with Suite Sister Mary and Promised Land.
Promised Land is top 5.
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Roads To Madness
:tup
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Just heard Empire for the first time. I knew Silent Lucidity and Jet City Woman but haven't heard any of the other songs. There are some really killer songs on here and the record is the best so far. Della Brown is easily the best song on the album IMO. I think the only thing that irked me was the spoken part in "Empire" the song.
Not to go off topic, but wouldn't it be great to hear any album you love for the first time again?
Empire is great. I remember getting the cassette and replaying Silent Lucidity numerous times, it was just so gorgeous. Unfortunately radio killed that feeling. Anybody Listening may be my favorite QR song of all time.
Absolutely. There are so many albums I've fallen In love with over the years that I still enjoy but I feel like after hearing every note of those records some magic is lost that can't be regained.
It's why I love these discography threads. I love listening through the albums while reading the write ups, it's like traveling through the life of the band with commentary about the time period the album was released. A lot of these albums are completely new to me.
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Roads To Madness
That wouldn't make my Queensryche top 40.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ca/e2/c7/cae2c7ddcaeeba16f43421526324851d--geoff-tate-music-bands.jpg)
:lol
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Road to Madness would be in my top 10 at least.
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Roads To Madness
That wouldn't make my Queensryche top 40.
Top tier for me
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As I already mentioned somewhere, I came to know Queensryche with Mindcrime, which was recommendation from my sister. So Empire was the first QR record that was released after I became a fan. But this was before the internet and I had no idea that it was coming out. I came to know of it by seeing a video of Silent Lucidity on MTV. And the song was listed as being from Empire, so the next day I went to my local record dealer and bought it.
Empire is probably the most accessible and most mainstream record Queensryche has done. And I like it a lot. Never thought that this was a sell-out, it was just another facet of their sound and stood in line with changing their sound from record to record but still maintain a recognizable QR-style.
And I never had problems with bands going the more melodic approach, I was a fan of melodic rock before I became a fan of metal and prog. And I like Falling Into Infinity for the same reasons ;D.
As Samsara has said the songs breathe more and I think this goes for the guitar solos too. On Mindcrime we had the full metal shred solos, now they have taken more to the “David Gilmour” approach. They are much more atmospheric and there’s a lot more room for the notes, most noteworthy in the song Della Brown.
Tate isn’t going to the almost insane high notes like on Mindcrime but still delivers a great performance, showing a lot of emotion and warmth in the more laid back and atmospheric songs. My highlight in regards to singing would be Anybody Listening?
I have the cd version with the bonus tracks, because my original disc was lost on some party or other. The new mastering doesn’t bother me much but the bonus tracks just don’t fit the rest of the record. Not that they are bad, but, even if this isn’t a concept record it has a great flow to it due to the track order, and Anybody Listening with the ambient sound of the ocean rolling in is such a perfect way to end the record. I’m an album guy, meaning I rarely listen to individual songs but mostly to full albums from start to finish and therefore everything that comes after that perfect ending just disturbes the mood and the flow and feels tacked on. Okay, I could just hit stop after Anybody Listening but still…
Empire is probably my second favorite QR record, with Jet City Woman, Silent Lucidity, Anybody Listening and One And Only being my favorite pieces. The latter seems to be a love it or hate it song.
And Della Brown is amazing as well. And all the other songs are great, so it’s hard to choose some favorites. The only songs I don’t care about are Resistance and Hand On Heart, not bad but just kinda there.
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re: Anybody Listening?
>>>Not only is this my favorite QR track, it's my favorite song of all-time. I really have a high regard for it. Live, it doesn't quite sound right without DeGarmo singing lines (and Tate doing them). It had a really cool vibe when that other voice came in. The Unplugged version is pretty funny. Ed at first doesn't want to do it, and says he'll come in on the parts he remembers. Scott wants NOTHING to do with it, and Chris goes "C'mon,, Scott, fuckin play along! Who cares if we screw up, these are our friends, right?" :lol
Then, as they begin take 1, Wilton mistakenly plays his part in the solo after the intro.
Chris (with Michael playing the wrong part): "Michael, Michael, Michael..."
Whip: continues to play
Geoff: "that's the solo..."
Whip: continues to play
Chris: "Michael, when we get to the solo, that sounds gorgeous man. But uh, one more time around..."
(paraphrase)
Just classic. :rollin
They try it again, and its mostly correct. Tate forgets a lyric or two, but they mostly get it down.
The other cool part about the complete Unplugged footage is another humorous section where the guys aren't sure they can play anything else. So they're sitting there, sorta at a loss, and DeGarmo starts playing Suite Sister Mary. Eddie yells out "yeah, you wish!" and Chris keeps noodling. Then Geoff realizes Chris might actually move forward with it, and Geoff says "no no no...and starts to get up and leave." hahahahahhahahahahahahaha.
Then they decide to do a cover of "Rockin in the Free World." As they get through half of it, Tate wants them to repeat the chorus, and the band sorta stops playing, with Geoff going "you gotta follow me..." and Chris just plays the ending of Suite Sister Mary. :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
Ed, of course, has the funniest line, saying at the end: "I may not know our own songs, but I can play somebody else's!" :lol Fuckin' Ed Bass...
Chris then says: "Yeah, I like that shit a little better honestly..." (referring to Suite Sister Mary).
It was so cool to see them vibing like that. They had a good break from the tour for a while at that point (about two to three months), so the batteries were recharged a bit...
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Yeah I really enjoyed the interplay on the unplugged session.
Re AL - the CDG vocal lines are cool. Just love that song
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I listened to Empire this morning - I had forgotten that I've also seen the band play Best I Can a few times as well. It was actually a nice change to hear it, since I usually go to Mindcrime/RFO/Warning, especially over the last 5 years. The singer change left me not wanting to listen to those old recordings (i.e. vocals), but enough time has passed, I'm older and I've simply stopped caring about what the band does or does not do since I have new priorities in my life.
So it's easier for me to enjoy the original albums again and it can take me back to when I discovered the band and became a big fan 20 years ago. Della Brown still bores me, but I'm more tolerant of the song now as well.
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Thanks to this thread, as mentioned in the original write up, I heard 'The Thin Line' demo for the first time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxlWdMEElH8
From approximately 3:30 onward of the demo, does it remind you of anything?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEZH0t5Yozw
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It was so cool to see them vibing like that. They had a good break from the tour for a while at that point (about two to three months), so the batteries were recharged a bit...
I have to remember this comment when we get to Promised Land.
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Back when I had this on cassette [insert fogey emoticon here], I appended The Real World after Anybody Listening...and it actually flowed well!
That's all I have...
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I like all three: Real World, Last Time In Paris and Scarborough Fair. I don't have the latter two on CD (yet) but I had all three on cassette singles back in the day. :)
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Back when I had this on cassette [insert fogey emoticon here], I appended The Real World after Anybody Listening...and it actually flowed well!
That's all I have...
Huh...guess I jumped the gun a bit, seems like it is considered part of the PL cycle. Always seemed to have more more common DNA with Empire for me, and it predated PL by a year, so I guess that's why I categorized it there.
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I like all three: Real World, Last Time In Paris and Scarborough Fair. I don't have the latter two on CD (yet) but I had all three on cassette singles back in the day. :)
Yes the remaster. I bought that as well just for Last Time In Paris.
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I have the Anybody Listening single on cd with Scarborough Fair.
I think that was a rarity at one time, not sure if it is anymore.
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Roads To Madness
That wouldn't make my Queensryche top 40.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ca/e2/c7/cae2c7ddcaeeba16f43421526324851d--geoff-tate-music-bands.jpg)
LOL. But hey, I like Roads to Madness; I just don't love it.
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Empire was a disappointment to me. Anybody listening was the best track on there.
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As usual, fantastic writeup and follow-up responses from Brian. Love all the stories, memories, and anecdotes being shared by all.
On the other hand it probably helped many newer fans to discover retroactively Mindcrime, so that's all good.
This was me exactly. Silent Lucidity's constant rotation on radio and TV was my introduction to the band. The fact that I was very much a glam/hair metal guy at the time, this kind of power ballad appealed to me. And it was so much better than any of the standard power ballads that traditional glam bands were churning out. It absolutely floored me, and I listened with awe for a very, VERY long time. I remember buying the CD at a flea market (along with Slaughter/Stick it To Ya, and Cinderella/Long Cold Winter - because they too had killer power ballads). Empire was something else though - #24 on my Top 50. The 'thinking man's metal' moniker is fairly apt... I remember thinking (and still do to this day) that the lyrics were just so damned intelligent - especially when compared to the music of the day from the bands/albums that I was listening to at the time.
I promptly went backwards in their catalog, and naturally spent a LOT of time with O:M; it would take many many years for me to give RFO/Warning/EP their fair due. However, on the strength of O:M and Empire alone, QR quickly became a favorite band of mine. I spun the shit out of those two albums. I too just missed their show that tour, which is also my biggest concert regret ever.
As for the notion of this being a sellout, "sellout" is a terrible term to use, but it was definitely a move to appeal to a broader audience. Thankfully, as Brian mentioned, this was more of a 'hybrid' transition from where QR was. For Metallica though, their move was absolutely a conscious one (maybe not as much by the band, but for sure by the extended groups involved), and the backlash from hard-core thrashy-metal fans was immense. Metallica doing power-ballads? Bob Rock as the producer? That album was most certainly pandering to the industry ... even though time has definitely proved it was a beneficial move (and an excellent album to boot).
@ Scotty... if you didn't like how the album cover was so pixelated, then you would've hated the 3'x5' poster I found of the cover. I think (hope) I still have it somewhere. I hung it above my bed in my dorm at Uni, which took like 1/2 a role of tape to hold that fucker up. For a long time, I had wanted a tat of the tri-ryche. Probably would've later in life if they had continued to produce good music.
Music has been there when nothing else seemingly has. Every range of emotion can and does get expressed. I think that this is especially true when you're a fan of music with progressive tendencies.
Amen brother!
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One thing about Empire, and Mindcrime, too, that I think deserves mention is the guitar solo work by both Wilton and DeGarmo. These records are a clinic in how to write guitar solos that serve the song and help create the perfect mood to drive the song home. I love the conversational nature of their trade off solos in Breaking the Silence and I Don't Believe in Love. Wilton perfectly captures the emotional anxiety in the lyrics of Another Rainy Night with a solo that is anxious and tense and slides perfectly into that final prechorus. DeGarmo's versatility shines in his Gilmour-esque melodicism in his solos on Anybody Listening and The Mission, while he takes a totally different approach in creating the emotional highpoint of Suite Sister Mary with a twisted and tormented solo. In all, while they weren't super flashy virtuosos, their work on these records is a masterclass of how a guitar team can work together to create leads that serve the songs perfectly.
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Back when I had this on cassette [insert fogey emoticon here], I appended The Real World after Anybody Listening...and it actually flowed well!
That's all I have...
Huh...guess I jumped the gun a bit, seems like it is considered part of the PL cycle. Always seemed to have more more common DNA with Empire for me, and it predated PL by a year, so I guess that's why I categorized it there.
Don't apologize; I'm with you on that. Maybe it's because I LOVE Empire and I LOVE Real World and... let's say, DON'T LOVE Promised Land, but still. I get that association.
Cinderella/Long Cold Winter
One of my favorite records, ever. Quality from top to bottom. "Lookin' on back when, I was young..."
Metallica doing power-ballads? Bob Rock as the producer? That album was most certainly pandering to the industry ...
I don't know that I am arguing with you, exactly, but I really have a hard time with the word "pandering". I can concede it was a conscious change in direction, but I don't at all think "pandering" is the right word. They wanted to move away from ...AJFA (10 minute, prog-thrash epics), and where were they going to go? Redo MoP? But they also wanted to move away from the Fleming Rasmussen style of production (cold, trebly, in my humble opinion, sterile) and liked what Crue did with Dr. Feelgood - musically as well as psychologically - and where were they going to go? Mutt Lange? Hetfield, who I consider to be probably the best example of musical integrity in the business right now, said point blank: we have done the long song to death and wanted to - had to - move in a different direction.
One thing about Empire, and Mindcrime, too, that I think deserves mention is the guitar solo work by both Wilton and DeGarmo. <SNIP> In all, while they weren't super flashy virtuosos, their work on these records is a masterclass of how a guitar team can work together to create leads that serve the songs perfectly.
Listen to the way the riff going into (and under) the chorus works. That's two guitar players playing two different lines that are butt simple but when played together, in my opinion, carry the whole song. Those lines mesh and dissonate (is that a word?) at the same time and move the song along. I LOVE that.
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Fair enough... maybe they (Metallica) didn't intend to pander to the industry from the outset, but the result they came up with was hard to interpret any other way - especially by their hardcore/loyal fans.
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Fair enough... maybe they (Metallica) didn't intend to pander to the industry from the outset, but the result they came up with was hard to interpret any other way - especially by their hardcore/loyal fans.
Agreed.
It's funny how well that album has aged though. The production and sound is amazing, plus they released mostly crap for the next decade and a half.
A comment that could also apply to both Queensryche's Empire and Dio's Lock Up The Wolves.
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Fair enough... maybe they (Metallica) didn't intend to pander to the industry from the outset, but the result they came up with was hard to interpret any other way - especially by their hardcore/loyal fans.
Well, yeah, but those "fans" largely want(ed) the catalogue to look like:
Kill 'Em All (1983)
Ride the Lightning (1984)
Master of Puppets (1986)
...And Justice for All (1988)
Metallica Ride The Lightning II (1991)
Load Master of Puppets Redux (1996)
Reload ...And Justice For All Revisited (1997)
St. Anger Ride The Lightning Again (2003)
Death Magnetic Son of the Master of Puppets (2008)
Hardwired... to Self-Destruct ... And Justice For All Those We Missed The First and Second Time (2016)
I was not a "hardcore" fan, but I knew the catalogue well (my roommate in college stood in line over night to buy ...And Justice For All upon release) and to me, "Metallica" was a band coming into it's own. If they had stayed "thrash", in my view, THAT would have been the "pandering". Like Slayer. Slayer to me is a cartoon and (though I stole this from two guys that used to host an internet radio show back in 2012 or so) I can't listen to them without hearing "Entrance of the Gladiators" (the "circus theme" song) in my head. Metallica needed to move on, and there could have been a LOT worse than "Metallica" in that case.
I'm not posting this to argue, or to go off topic. I think there are a LOT of similarities between the Queensryche and Metallica arcs up through their defining albums; it's from this point that the tangents appear.
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The Metallica/QR thing (which I know I planted a seed to discuss up above a bit) may make an interesting other thread, Stadler, if you're so inclined. They did share management, so there's that. I think I may have a bit to contribute if you did.
Of course, a lot of bands did the same thing during that era.
One thing about Empire, and Mindcrime, too, that I think deserves mention is the guitar solo work by both Wilton and DeGarmo. These records are a clinic in how to write guitar solos that serve the song and help create the perfect mood to drive the song home. I love the conversational nature of their trade off solos in Breaking the Silence and I Don't Believe in Love. Wilton perfectly captures the emotional anxiety in the lyrics of Another Rainy Night with a solo that is anxious and tense and slides perfectly into that final prechorus. DeGarmo's versatility shines in his Gilmour-esque melodicism in his solos on Anybody Listening and The Mission, while he takes a totally different approach in creating the emotional highpoint of Suite Sister Mary with a twisted and tormented solo. In all, while they weren't super flashy virtuosos, their work on these records is a masterclass of how a guitar team can work together to create leads that serve the songs perfectly.
The solos were pretty perfect, I agree. I am with you that the best solos are the ones that heighten the drama and capture the essence of the song, and DeGarmo and Wilton were masters at that during their primes. Agreed completely on your Mindcrime and Empire examples. Simply put, there is a magic between the two of them that has never, ever, been replicated by the band after DeGarmo's initial departure. And the 1988-1992 eras of the band were the absolute pinnacle for that.
Because Empire was warmer, and wasn't as aggressive, you really got a ton more exposure to just HOW GOOD those guys were on a creative level, instead of being bombarded. Just such a classic record.
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Holy mother of god... Stadler and I agree on something!
Back on Mindcrime though, I just listened to the re-matster disc 2 (live). So good.
I will say that Hand on Heart is the one song that I never did appreciate, and time hasn't done anything to change that opinion. For me personally:
God-tier ... Best I Can, Empire, Silent Lucidity, Anybody Listening?
Awesomesauce... The Thin Line, Della Brown, JCW, ARN (w/o U), Resistence
Very very good ... One and Only
Meh... HoH
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Regarding "Best I Can," I thought that song was a huge departure for the band that really worked. It was totally driven by by the drums using the guitars to highlight the emotion rather than drive it until the chorus. Great work of keyboards in the same regard. I felt it really gave Scott and Geoff a chance to shine.
Chris' solo was also a bit of a departure for the band, style-wise, incorporating the wah a bit. But unlike when it was abused by Kelly Gray later on in the band's history, its use on this song by Chris really gave the song a unique feel to it. You can tell the guys really obsessed over these songs and worked them over big time. The attention to detail is just astounding...even 27 years later.
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God-tier ... Best I Can, Empire, Silent Lucidity, Anybody Listening?
Awesomesauce... The Thin Line, Della Brown, JCW, ARN (w/o U), Resistence
Very very good ... One and Only
Meh... HoH
This album has it's stronger songs (Anybody Listening?) and surely it's weaker ones (Resistance), but I find the tracks on Empire all seem to lean on each other as this album is definitely greater than the sum of it's parts. IMO of course.
Well, yeah, but those "fans" largely want(ed) the catalogue to look like:
Kill 'Em All (1983)
Ride the Lightning (1984)
Master of Puppets (1986)
...And Justice for All (1988)
Metallica Ride The Lightning II (1991)
Load Master of Puppets Redux (1996)
Reload ...And Justice For All Revisited (1997)
St. Anger Ride The Lightning Again (2003)
Death Magnetic Son of the Master of Puppets (2008)
Hardwired... to Self-Destruct ... And Justice For All Those We Missed The First and Second Time (2016)
Personally, I was waiting for Kill 'Em All Again!
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Regarding "Best I Can," I thought that song was a huge departure for the band that really worked. It was totally driven by by the drums using the guitars to highlight the emotion rather than drive it until the chorus. Great work of keyboards in the same regard. I felt it really gave Scott and Geoff a chance to shine.
Chris' solo was also a bit of a departure for the band, style-wise, incorporating the wah a bit. But unlike when it was abused by Kelly Gray later on in the band's history, its use on this song by Chris really gave the song a unique feel to it. You can tell the guys really obsessed over these songs and worked them over big time. The attention to detail is just astounding...even 27 years later.
That whole middle section is very Rush like in the sense that it seems to be more of a band show off rather than simply a guitar solo. Chris's lead over the top allows plenty of space for the rhythm section to play together and off each other, much like Rush does on Marathon, off Power Windows.
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I can't stop listening to Della Brown, I have found some really great music from this thread so far.
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Mentioned in the 'Rage for Order' thread for the 2003 reissue, I did not know that 'I Dream In Infrared (acoustic)' was the b side for both 'Best I Can' and 'Jet City Woman'. Heard it for the first time last night. One of the rarities where I like both versions of a song that a band releases.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URLwgxrMebA
(btw, I'm enjoying these write ups. Thanks)
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It's interesting to see the explosion of Queensr˙che appearances on MTV's Headbangers Ball in 1989, and again with the Empire-era. I have a question regarding their huge tour, when we get to that part.
As for the Scarborough Fair cover, there are actually two versions. There's the one from the Rage for Order sessions, and then there's one from the Empire sessions, which they ended up releasing. You can tell the two apart mostly by the change in Tate's tone (plus the Rage version has him singing slightly higher). I prefer the latter, which also has excellent drum work from Scott.
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It's interesting to see the explosion of Queensr˙che appearances on MTV's Headbangers Ball in 1989, and again with the Empire-era. I have a question regarding their huge tour, when we get to that part.
It's not going to be a big entry, and is meant to cover the releases (LIVEcrime and Building Empires) mostly, so ask away...
As for the Scarborough Fair cover, there are actually two versions. There's the one from the Rage for Order sessions, and then there's one from the Empire sessions, which they ended up releasing. You can tell the two apart mostly by the change in Tate's tone (plus the Rage version has him singing slightly higher). I prefer the latter, which also has excellent drum work from Scott.
That's right. i forgot about that, honestly. Nice call. I'm not a huge fan of the cover, so I don't tend to listen to it.
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It's interesting to see the explosion of Queensr˙che appearances on MTV's Headbangers Ball in 1989, and again with the Empire-era. I have a question regarding their huge tour, when we get to that part.
It's not going to be a big entry, and is meant to cover the releases (LIVEcrime and Building Empires) mostly, so ask away...
I remember once hearing Geoff talk about how burned out he was after the massive Empire tour (I believe it's from the interview in Paris '95). He said he was so burned out that for a long time, he couldn't listen to music...
Now, this might be too far out but: Was the huge success of the album, and the massively succesful, but exhausting tour, part of what "killed" Queensr˙che back then?
I'm reaching a bit beyond the Empire timeline with this, but say Empire hadn't been such a massive succes. The tour would probably have been limited to 1 leg per continent, so they would have been done touring at the end of July '91. Would we have seen another album from them in mid-late '92? What I can gather from your writing (please correct me if I'm wrong here), was that part of Promised Land's limited succes, was that it took so long for the band to release another album, and people had simply moved on. Queensr˙che had lost some momentum due to the long wait.
A bit far fetched perhaps, but I digress!
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I'm reaching a bit beyond the Empire timeline with this, but say Empire hadn't been such a massive succes. The tour would probably have been limited to 1 leg per continent, so they would have been done touring at the end of July '91. Would we have seen another album from them in mid-late '92? What I can gather from your writing (please correct me if I'm wrong here), was that part of Promised Land's limited succes, was that it took so long for the band to release another album, and people had simply moved on. Queensr˙che had lost some momentum due to the long wait.
Lots to chew on there, bro.
If I may offer...By the mid 90's most of the kids that grew up in the 80's (read: me) were out of school and working. Also, remember, they built their base as a hard rock band. I remember the Promised Land tour was pretty well attended, but at least for me, I feel it was an incredibly weak album followed up by another incredibly weak album. While they may have gained some new fans through Silent Lucidity's popularity, those fans by nature are fickle. What they did though, was shun their hard rock base of fans.
Honestly, with Promised Land, I felt the band moved on..
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It's interesting to see the explosion of Queensr˙che appearances on MTV's Headbangers Ball in 1989, and again with the Empire-era. I have a question regarding their huge tour, when we get to that part.
It's not going to be a big entry, and is meant to cover the releases (LIVEcrime and Building Empires) mostly, so ask away...
I remember once hearing Geoff talk about how burned out he was after the massive Empire tour (I believe it's from the interview in Paris '95). He said he was so burned out that for a long time, he couldn't listen to music...
Now, this might be too far out but: Was the huge success of the album, and the massively succesful, but exhausting tour, part of what "killed" Queensr˙che back then?
I'm reaching a bit beyond the Empire timeline with this, but say Empire hadn't been such a massive succes. The tour would probably have been limited to 1 leg per continent, so they would have been done touring at the end of July '91. Would we have seen another album from them in mid-late '92? What I can gather from your writing (please correct me if I'm wrong here), was that part of Promised Land's limited succes, was that it took so long for the band to release another album, and people had simply moved on. Queensr˙che had lost some momentum due to the long wait.
A bit far fetched perhaps, but I digress!
It's a fair point but it was accepted practice to keep a successful band out on the road. By the time PL came out the musical landscape had changed, pure and simple. And as Queensryche liked to change things up and not come out with the same album twice, that adds pressure. They may have been better served to deliver an Empire II. Promised Land was a difficult album to digest initially but I'll save that for later.
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I remember once hearing Geoff talk about how burned out he was after the massive Empire tour (I believe it's from the interview in Paris '95). He said he was so burned out that for a long time, he couldn't listen to music...
Now, this might be too far out but: Was the huge success of the album, and the massively succesful, but exhausting tour, part of what "killed" Queensr˙che back then?
I'm reaching a bit beyond the Empire timeline with this, but say Empire hadn't been such a massive succes. The tour would probably have been limited to 1 leg per continent, so they would have been done touring at the end of July '91. Would we have seen another album from them in mid-late '92? What I can gather from your writing (please correct me if I'm wrong here), was that part of Promised Land's limited succes, was that it took so long for the band to release another album, and people had simply moved on. Queensr˙che had lost some momentum due to the long wait.
It was huge mess of factors, which I am not sure really works here in the discography rundown (because it talks about more than just the music and tour). But since we're here, why not...
I think if Silent Lucidity had been left off of Empire, it would have shown steady growth, but not 3.5 million. It would have probably hit 1.5 million. Platinum, and noteworthy, but not skyrocket level. Remember, even with the massive success of Eyes of a Stranger (which is the reason why Mindcrime finally did well for so long) they were still at that gold-just about platinum sales level (when album sales meant something). Empire started off strong, but while we can't really know for certain, if Silent Lucidity didn't exist, I honestly believe the record wouldn't have been nearly as big, or the tour nearly as long.
In a nutshell, given the popularity of Lucidity, it probably directly accounted for a TON of album sales, a TON of tickets, and then the people that eventually bought the record after the show after having a good time (afterglow sales) that weren't huge fans. I may be stretching the numbers, but it had a tremendous impact.
And based on SOLELY on music factors alone, I think you're right -- they may have ultimately gone in and gotten another album out in mid-late 1992 to build on things...but we know some of the unfortunate personal issues that went on with the band. Tate's divorce, Scott's divorce, and some other things.
Given that situation, I'm not really sure what real difference it would have made, or if they would have been able to get back into the studio that quickly, given the dynamic. I think if they had gotten off the road, with moderate success, and did another quick record for 1992, it would have sold better than PL did (PL was 1-1.5 million) in 1994. It may have sold 2 million. But again, that's assuming that Empire would have been successful enough without Lucidity to make that leap. Because there's no way QR was coming off the road with Lucidity as hot as it was. For them to be off the road by summer '91, they would have to have had enough success to show growth, but not quite enough to breakthrough. Lucidity launched them up a few notches (which the band has said), going from steady growth to superstar. Lucidity drove that.
Basically, QR was in prime position to do a follow-up to Empire in 1992. But all those factors (divorces, the need to unplug, other issues, etc.) are just part of reality and real life. To be frank, after the Rock the Environment show in June 1992, that was when shit hit the fan (if my memory serves) for them personally. Not really sure, given the expectations of the label, the fans, etc., that with all those factors in play, QR could have gotten anything done in 1992. 1993 was a dead year basically too. They started working on songs (that much is clear, I think with Real World, and I am going to guess Dirty Lil Secret was around then). But the fact those tunes sort of fit the Empire mold may have been enough for all of them to hit the breaks and want to come up with someone different...which took another year.
I dunno, it's hard to tell. But we'll get to some of that with Promised Land.
I'll try and finish the short write up on LIVEcrime and Building Empires this weekend, post it next week, and then have Promised Land ready five or six days later (I don;'t think there will be much discussion on LIVEcrime and Building Empires).
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Interesting to read through these last comments. It's amazing how a single song can stear a band's whole carreer in a direction or the other, and how seemingly small moments turn out in hindsight to be watermark moments where the band is never the "same", this applying to either the personell, the music or the overall style.
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Sam, to me the real cog was Chris. I can't wait to read what lead him to leave QR and why he backed out on Tribe.
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Sam, to me the real cog was Chris. I can't wait to read what lead him to leave QR and why he backed out on Tribe.
I think the answer to both those questions is probably Geoff Tate 😀
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:lol
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Music usually has a bigger impact on you in your youth when it's all new and fresh... even though the Livecrime video was effectively the first full album of QR's I was exposed to, the opening notes of Best I Can was the first QR I ever heard and I can actually remember the exact road I was driving on when a friend introduced it as "proper music" and popped the tape in when I was giving him a lift home from Sixth Form.
I don't think Empire is as strong from start-to-finish as either R4O or Mindcrime as I regularly skip Della Brown and Hand On Heart and One And Only are merely good, but it's still a wonderful album and has my favourite QR song on it in Anybody Listening?
Tate's voice was at its absolute best at this stage of their career. He'd already lost the very top of his EP/Warning/R4O range, I believe, but his delivery had lost most of the quack from those early records and his voice had rounded out to have a much nicer, warmer, more commercial quality.
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Just FYI, I plan on uploading the Building Empires/LIVEcrime write up on Wednesday, July 19, and then Promised Land a week after that (I haven't written that one yet). This will give Empire/LIVEcrime/Building Empires a couple of weeks worth of discussion before moving on...
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Tate's voice was at its absolute best at this stage of their career. He'd already lost the very top of his EP/Warning/R4O range, I believe, but his delivery had lost most of the quack from those early records and his voice had rounded out to have a much nicer, warmer, more commercial quality.
I was just thinking that while relistening to Empire the other day. His voice was about perfect in my opinion with O:M and Empire. I don't agree with "commercial quality" per se, but just pleasing. Smooth transitions from registers, great tone, strong range... you can knock SL as a Floyd clone, commercial pandering, whatever, but fact of the matter is Geoff doesn't phone it in and that is, in my opinion, a great vocal performance.
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Ah, Empire. This album changed everything for me. Like Jingle, I was mostly into "hair metal" and related acts leading up to this, although more straightforward hard rock bands were really my thing. Def Leppard were my favorite band since Pyromania, and despite the different, even more commercial sound of Hysteria, I didn't really see anyone unseating them. But then came Empire...
I was just starting to really get into Mindcrime when this album dropped. As I posted in connection with that album, Queensryche didn't really register on my radar, and it wasn't until VERY late in the Mindcrime cycle that I started listening to the album, and a bit after that until I truly "got" it. I remember when Empire dropped and a friend and fellow fan (Marine Corps buddy, to be exact) picked up a copy on CD. He offered it to me a bit later. I think he may not have liked the more mainstream direction of the album. Anyhow, I turned him down. Maybe it was partially due to still not being convinced they were a band I was interested in beyond Mindcrime. Maybe it was the fact that I didn't yet have a CD player and had no use for a CD. I honestly don't remember.
Whatever the reason for not picking it up initially, it didn't take too long. Songs like Best I Can and Empire hooked me quickly, and Silent Lucidity, Della Brown, Resistance, and Anybody Listening? weren't far behind. As said above, the fact that the lyrics were so thought provoking and different, combined with the complex soundscapes that worked together with the lyrics to create vivid mental pictures was something new and different. This was a band that made you really think, if you let them, but didn't tell you WHAT to think, and I loved that. This album struck me very profoundly, and it wasn't long before I was referring to Queensryche as my new favorite band. Empire also holds the distinction as being my most-purchased album. I don't know how many copies I have gone through over the years. But at least two cassettes and two CDs.
One of the reasons I had to replace my initial copy of Empire has to do with the time it came out. I began listening to it probably in early Fall of 1990 if memory serves. I remember many weekend road trips from North Carolina to Georgia with Empire, Wicked Sensation (Lynch Mob), and Sahara (House of Lords) blaring from my car speakers. But Empire soon held a special place. During that same time, the Persian Gulf War erupted, and my unit learned we would be going. On those lonely nights in the desert of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, I played that cassette on my Walkman over and over and over again, eventually wearing it out and having to write home to ask mom and dad to send me a replacement. Anybody Listening? became very special to me, due in large part to the introspective lyrics. I remember signing a lot of my letters home during that period with the lyric, "And if I don't return to sing the song, maybe just as well; I've seen the news, and there's not much I can do..." I remember sharing that story with Geoff Tate years later when I met him. He didn't get it and kept twisting what I was saying into basically, "Oh, so you realized you were just a puppet of the evil U.S. war machine and were intellectually rebelling," or some such nonsense. It wasn't until sometime later that I realized that that was the timeframe he was writing American Soldier, and was basically viewing the entire U.S. military through his own distorted lenses. But I digress...
This album was very important to me, and is one of my all-time favorites. Although I got more lost in Mindcrime and Promised Land, I often rank Empire ahead of them because it was so game-changing for me, and because it is such a consistent album from start to finish that somehow never manages to sound dated. The only song on it that never really clicked for me is One and Only. I can listen to any of the other songs any time without them getting old.
As for the extras... I didn't know about them at the time. I think I remember seeing the cassette single of Empire with the Scarborough Fair B-side (or whichever of the singles had that--I think it was Empire) and not buying it, but regretting it later. It wasn't until I was in law school much later that a friend burned me a copy of that song. I still have it and love it. FANTASTIC cover! I can't remember when I found out about Last Time In Paris, but it took me awhile to track that down. Remember, this was in the time long before Ebay, Amazon.com, etc., and soundtracks could be actually fairly hard to come by if you didn't buy them right after release because music stores didn't tend to stock a lot of them. There is a great local chain here in N. Cal. called Rasputin's, and I remember spending years flipping through the used soundtrack bins whenever I would stop in to see if I could find a copy. I think it was 1994 or '95 because I found that used Ford Fairlane soundtrack. I don't even remember anything else much on it, other than a vague recollection of a Vince Neal song. But Last Time In Paris was pretty good.
Interesting to read through these last comments. It's amazing how a single song can stear a band's whole carreer in a direction or the other, and how seemingly small moments turn out in hindsight to be watermark moments where the band is never the "same", this applying to either the personell, the music or the overall style.
Very, very true. And it's kind of funny how for some bands, "that one song" isn't necessarily a reflection of what the band is even really about. Take Extreme for example. When I saw them back around 2010 or whenever it was, I remember when they had to play More Than Words, and either Gary or Nuno basically said it was their albatross that they "had to" play, but didn't really want to play, and they made the audience sing basically the whole thing.
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Very, very true. And it's kind of funny how for some bands, "that one song" isn't necessarily a reflection of what the band is even really about. Take Extreme for example. When I saw them back around 2010 or whenever it was, I remember when they had to play More Than Words, and either Gary or Nuno basically said it was their albatross that they "had to" play, but didn't really want to play, and they made the audience sing basically the whole thing.
It wasn't until I saw the live Pornografitti 25th tour that I realized how much that song sticks out from the rest of the album (even the other - and better - ballad, "Song For Love").
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used Ford Fairlane soundtrack. I don't even remember anything else much on it, other than a vague recollection of a Vince Neal song.
Rock 'n' Roll Junkie, iirc.
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You can't listen to *everything*, and I never checked out Extreme, so literally I know them just for More than Words. Poor them :lol
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I thought it was Crue, and not Vince Neil.
There was a Billy Idol song on there that I liked, too. The rest I remember not really being my bag.
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I just looked it up. Yeah, it was Crue. I misremembered it being a Vince solo song. And, yeah, that Billy Idol song was decent too. Looking at the track list, I honestly can't remember how any of the other songs go. :lol
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Was that Cradle of Love?
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Yup.
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During that same time, the Persian Gulf War erupted, and my unit learned we would be going. On those lonely nights in the desert of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, I played that cassette on my Walkman over and over and over again, eventually wearing it out and having to write home to ask mom and dad to send me a replacement.
Thank you for your service, Jerry. I mean I knew you were in the service, but didn't realize you actually went over. Glad you made it back.
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^
What TAC said....
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Operation: LIVEcrime & Building Empires (1991-1992)
Lead vocals/keyboards: Geoff Tate
Lead & rhythm guitars, background vocals: Chris DeGarmo
Lead & rhythm guitars, background vocals: Michael Wilton
Bass guitar, background vocals: Eddie Jackson
Drums: Scott Rockenfield
Additional vocals on “Suite Sister Mary” - Pamela Moore
I had previously written up something on the Building Empires tour (which is what these two releases capture) on my website. So the below quote is from www.anybodylistening.net/tourdates.html:
With approximately 190 shows and promotional appearances across 18 months, the Building Empires tour was the longest-running album support run in Queensryche's history. Empire was the band's commercial and touring peak, with Queensryche reaching arena status in areas across the United States. It also marked the first time that the band would perform Operation: Mindcrime in its entirety, sandwiched between cuts from Empire and the back catalog. The show would typically last from 120-140 minutes each night.
During this timeframe, a Queensryche concert wasn't just a gig -- it was a full-on multimedia spectacle. The band had dual video screens and animations running behind them to accompany songs, an elaborate stage that included various ramps (including a basketball hoop Tate would take a shot on during "Best I Can"), and at times, guest appearances from Pamela Moore, aka "Suite Sister Mary." For headline appearances, Queensryche took out Lynch Mob, Warrior Soul and Suicidal Tendencies at different points in time. Queensryche also appeared at various European festivals doing an abbreviated set. The tour formally ended in Jan. 1992, but the band played a number of award shows and other events following it. Of note is Queensryche's MTV Unplugged appearance on April 27, 1992, and a final festival show at the Rock the Environment benefit on June 6, 1992, in George, Wash., to close out support of Empire.
Queensryche's setlist was very static during this period, with only minor changes, depending on the leg they were on. Songs performed periodically that differ from the example below, included "Hand on Heart" (first month of the tour at various gigs), "The Lady Wore Black" (made sporadic appearances as an additional encore), "Another Rainy Night (Without You)" (became a setlist staple in Oct. 1991 for the remainder of the tour), "Della Brown," "Last Time in Paris," and "Anybody Listening?"
The only significant deviations from the main set was the MTV Unplugged performance and the Rock the Environment gig. At the former, Queensryche did acoustic renditions of "I Will Remember" and "The Killing Words." The band also did acoustic covers of "Scarborough Fair" by Simon and Garfunkel and "Rockin' in the Free World," by Neil Young. During the Rock the Environment show, Queensryche dusted off "No Sanctuary," played "The Killing Words" again, and then participated in a jam session with Alice in Chains and Heart that included covers of "Revolution" by The Beatles and "Gimme Shelter" from the Rolling Stones. The only song from Empire not performed live by the band on the Building Empires tour was "One and Only." Coincidentally, the original lineup of Queensryche never played it live. It was only performed in soundcheck during the band's first few shows in October/November 1990, according to Michael Wilton. A typical setlist on this tour looked like this:
Resistance
Walk In The Shadows
Best I Can
Empire
The Thin Line
Jet City Woman
Roads To Madness
I Remember Now
Anarchy-X
Revolution Calling
Operation: Mindcrime
Speak
Spreading the Disease
The Mission
Suite Sister Mary
The Needle Lies
Electric Requiem
Breaking the Silence
I Don't Believe in Love
Waiting for 22
My Empty Room
Eyes of a Stranger
Take Hold Of The Flame
Silent Lucidity
Queensryche documented their worldwide success with two separate releases: Operation: LIVEcrime, which captured the band's performance of Operation: Mindcrime in its entirety, and Building Empires, a home video that provided fans with all the band's music videos to that point in time (except for the videos found on the Video: Mindcrime release), and a bunch of live videos of Empire songs and other tracks from the Building Empires tour.
Operation: LIVEcrime was originally released on Oct. 28 and Nov. 5, 1991 as a box set documenting Queensryche's complete performance of Operation: Mindcrime on its tour in support of Empire. The recordings were taken from three shows: May 10, 1991 - Madison, Wis.; May 11, 1991 - Milwaukee, Wis.; and May 12, 1991 - LaCrosse, Wis. The original release contained a VHS and either a cassette or CD. The box set also featured a 44-page libretto with the basic storyline and photos of the band performing, and some snapshots of the animation used on tour. Operation: LIVEcrime was subsequently remastered and released on DVD in 2001. The re-release did not include the libretto, but did contain bonus tracks of other tunes ("The Lady Wore Black" and "Roads to Madness" if memory serves).
Interesting fact: In interviews following the release of Operation: LIVEcrime, the members of Queensryche stated that there were only two mistakes made by the band over the three-nights they recorded: Tate flubbed the lyrics once, and Wilton broke a string. Otherwise, any of the three nights could have been released outright in its entirety.
Building Empires was released in 1992 on VHS, and was released on DVD in 2002. It has an approximate running time of 100 minutes, which includes commentary by DeGarmo, Tate and Wilton. The trio walk around the streets of Seattle, giving viewers a bit of exposure to the city in-between various videos. Essentially, it is an Empire-based video compilation of both the videos shot for the record, live videos from the tour, and other videos from throughout the band's career. Unfortunately, there's not much more to tell about the two releases, other than they were immensely popular among fans, and helped bridge the gap between Empire and the band's next studio effort, which wouldn't surface until 1994.
Interesting fact: Back in spring 2001, I was contacted by someone at Capitol Records who was searching for a pristine copy of the Unplugged Sessions. Apparently they (the band and label) had misplaced the master reels the show was captured on, and they needed the audio to fix a few things in the DVD re-release they were doing. They ultimately found the masters, which were located in Canada.
Click below for some images of the original box set, 2001 remaster, and 2001 remaster promo editions of Operation: LIVEcrime
https://anybodylistening.net/operationlivecrime.html
Building Empires:
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/qr-be.jpg)
Next up...Promised Land.
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I have Livecrime on DVD and on a separate audio cd. I think experiencing the whole Mindcrime live was a blast, sadly I missed those tours, my first (and only) QR live gig was on the Promised Land tour.
Watching the DVD I can only imagine how it must be being in the audience, but the fact that they play it almost note for note like on the record makes at least the audio cd kinda pointless to me. I like it when bands shake things up a bit in the live setting, recreating the studio record isn't really my cup of tea. This is obviously different when being there, you feel the energy, the crowd and everything, but as I said, listening to it on cd afterwards isn't that exciting anymore. On the DVD you have the visuals and it's nice, but I think I onyl watched it two or three times.
Anyway, decent release but nothing that is special to me.
And I never saw Building Empires, so can't comment on that one.
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the fact that they play it almost note for note like on the record makes at least the audio cd kinda pointless to me. I like it when bands shake things up a bit in the live setting, recreating the studio record isn't really my cup of tea. This is obviously different when being there, you feel the energy, the crowd and everything, but as I said, listening to it on cd afterwards isn't that exciting anymore. On the DVD you have the visuals and it's nice, but I think I onyl watched it two or three times.
There are some differences - the tempo on Needle Lies is even faster than the studio album. They also do the usual stop/start after the solo and little instrumental run in the middle of the song and Geoff showcases his lung power in a few songs with some big-ass sustained notes (the end of Needlie Lies, Eyes of a Stranger, etc.). But to take the official live recording of such a monumental album and tweak it too much during the performance? I don't know if I'd agree with that, but different strokes for different folks. I definitely prefer that it's a very faithful recording and the live sound is enough of a difference for me.
Livecrime is the definitive live Queensryche album/performance for me. The band was on fire and sounds incredible, and it has a perfect mix of old/new Geoff. His voice is killer, and he's just starting to embrace his "acting" on stage without overdoing it and becoming too hammy like he did later on in his career. My cousin's favorite band was Queensryche, and when we discovered our mutual love for the band in the early 2000's and started attending shows together, he commented once about how he loved Geoff doing little things on stage and acting to accentuate the lyrics. I always just wanted him to sing the songs - but on Livecrime, it adds to the performance for me.
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I got to see this tour in Raleigh, NC with Suicidal as the supporting act. To this day, it remains one of the best shows I have ever seen. The band were flawless, the set was just about perfect, and the stage production was truly something to behold. When Livecrime came out, I got the CD/VHS version, and I played it to death. I was just in awe of what the band was able to do onstage for that production. While Empire made Queensryche my favorite band, Livecrime sealed the deal. NOBODY was putting on a show as consistently good as these guys. Nobody.
As for Building Empires, it was a nice addition. But it wasn't a game changer. Just a nice extra for the fans. By this time, I was starting to sour a bit on the polished MTV video production, so having the studio videos didn't do too much for me (with the exception of Anybody Listening?, which I don't recall getting much play at all, so it was really nice to have that one). Still, it was cool getting to see the alternate version of Another Rainy Night, although the replay value may not have been very high.
The gems on this release were, IMO, the bonus live footage from the Building Empires tour and the couple of Unplugged songs (I Will Remember and Della Brown). I wish we could have gotten an entire concert from that tour, but the songs they gave us still presented a nice, rounded picture of what the band had been doing during that entire time period. I do wish the video was in full color for the extra live tracks rather than in b&w. Not sure if they were trying to make an artistic statement or if something happened to the live video that was shot. But either way, I would have much preferred to see the video in color.
Minor complaints aside, these two videos documented the Building Empires tour and beyond very well and are consider them true gems in the QR collection.
EDIT: Samsara, I took the years out of the thread title for now. For some reason, when we reply and it adds "Re:" to the subject line, it is saying it is too long and needs to be modified. So I just removed the years in case people who are posting don't know how to shorten it themselves.
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as a Wisconsinite, I know a handful of people that were at the recorded LiveCrime shows.
Lucky sumbitches.
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I have literally never heard a note, nor watched a clip of LIVEcrime. I remember when it came out and saw it in the store. I definitely would've bought it if it was the full show, but I had no use for a partial show. I was heavy into bootleg trading at the time and a partial show, even a commercial release, did not interest me.
The same for Building Empires. I barely remember it, TBH, but any video that was basically a collection of videos would not have interested me.
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Both really good videos, still play them today. Both fell victim to my ex who took a pair of scissors to my vhs collection, but I have both on d d now.
They captured a band at the top of the tree, on fire.
they had come a long way since I'd seen them supporting DIO in 84.
I remember George Lynch and band coming out to watch the first few songs of QR's set, they stood in front of me and I shook George's hand.
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TAC, I get that. But Livecrime especially is really worth the purchase. Although you don't get the entire concert set, you still get Mindcrime in its entirety, and this is definitely the definitive performance of that album. I highly recommend it. And with the bonus live tracks, you get some additional non-Mindcrime songs from the tour. Same with Building Empires for the additional non-Mindcrime live tracks. It isn't just the studio videos. But, IMO, Building Empires, while nice to have, isn't essential. I would put Livecrime in the "essential" category despite it not being a full set.
Oh, and thanks for the recognition above. I appreciate it.
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Has there been a reissue with bonus tracks? What are they?
I came close to getting it a couple of times, but I guess it never really moved to the top of The List. Depending on the bonus tracks, I may consider it. I definitely would've grabbed it then if I KNEW it would be the last decent thing that band would do. ;D
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I have literally never heard a note, nor watched a clip of LIVEcrime. I remember when it came out and saw it in the store. I definitely would've bought it if it was the full show, but I had no use for a partial show. I was heavy into bootleg trading at the time and a partial show, even a commercial release, did not interest me.
The same for Building Empires. I barely remember it, TBH, but any video that was basically a collection of videos would not have interested me.
Tim, you are missing out. Big time. I hear ya, but it's such an incredible live album. There was a time that I listened to LIVEcrime instead of Mindcrime, just for the energy. You're a classic Queensryche guy, and to not have LIVEcrime in your possession and Building Empires is a travesty. I really recommend you get them. The very cool nostalgia trip you'll go on is worth it.
During the 1991-1992 timeframe, I don't recall getting either of these. I was in high school and consumed with high school life. I was still a big fan, but just didn't know about them. I think I got them in 1994, right before Promised Land came out. I loved and still love, them both. Watching Building Empires was like a history lesson on the band, which really fanned the flames of my passion for Queensryche history. And watching LIVEcrime...man, I was blown away. I hadn't seen the tour (GRUMBLE), and to witness just how AMAZING it looked and sounded was incredible.
My first copy of LIVEcrime (it was 50 bucks, I think, back in 1994) was actually split between myself and a friend. I got the CD and libretto. He took the VHS and the box. :lol We simply just didn't have a lot of money (1994 was my freshman year in college), and we had booze and women to spend money on. :tup Ah, college. Anyway, so there was that.
LIVEcrime also started getting me interested in collecting QR live shows, which I started doing just another year later by buying stuff from the local record shops and flea markets. It was all spurred by the greatness of LIVEcrime. What a great time period.
Oh, and for completists out there (TIM, this may be of interest), the entire Nov. 14, 1990 show on audio is available. If you buy the 25th anniversary box set of Operation: Mindcrime, and the 20th Anniversary box set of Empire, the live tracks on both combine to be the ENTIRE Nov. 14, 1990 show if you want to create an iTunes playlist or a compilation CD. It's completely unedited (no overdubs) so you get the full on, live Queensryche performance. It's also a treat because it features one of the very limited performances of "Hand on Heart." So if you can find both those anniversary editions (which are still available), it's worth it.
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Big Queensryche fan, mainly during this era. They were the best, hottest band at the time, IMO. "Thinking Man's Metal Band" ( I believe) was what they were known as. Unfortunately, only seen them once back then. On the Empire tour, but is still one of the best concerts I've went to. Besides Tate's voice and the band as a whole, what I thought made them so good was that each release from The Warning thru Promised Land were so different, each Album had it's own sound and feel. Favorites are RFO and Operation Mindcrime, hard to decide which one I like better.
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Has there been a reissue with bonus tracks? What are they?
I came close to getting it a couple of times, but I guess it never really moved to the top of The List. Depending on the bonus tracks, I may consider it. I definitely would've grabbed it then if I KNEW it would be the last decent thing that band would do. ;D
Here's the thing -- if you want a complete show from Building Empires on audio, do what I suggested above. Yes, there is a re-issue of LIVEcrime (I think I mentioned it in my write up), but it's not the complete show.
But I really encourage you to get LIVEcrime. Even if you decide to skip the audio and just get the DVD. It's essential classic Queensryche.
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Oh, and for completists out there (TIM, this may be of interest), the entire Nov. 14, 1990 show on audio is available. If you buy the 25th anniversary box set of Operation: Mindcrime, and the 20th Anniversary box set of Empire, the live tracks on both combine to be the ENTIRE Nov. 14, 1990 show if you want to create an iTunes playlist or a compilation CD. It's completely unedited (no overdubs) so you get the full on, live Queensryche performance. It's also a treat because it features one of the very limited performances of "Hand on Heart." So if you can find both those anniversary editions (which are still available), it's worth it.
:omg: How did I not know this?
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Hmm..Duly noted.
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I picked up Livecrime on release day back in my freshman year of college. It was about 10 days after my birthday. So, I used some of my birthday cash. I remember it was actually a little bit of a chore to get it. I had to go to the other side of campus and wait for the bus to take it to the mall downtown, pay record store chain pricing, wait for the bus to make its way back to the mall and take it back to campus. Since I was a freshman, I didn't have a TV in the room. So, I had to wait until I was home for Thanksgiving to watch the video. Thankfully, I had seen the tour so at least I could envision what was going on with the live show.
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How did I not realize, all these years later, that the LIVE:Crime (which I have, and love) wasn't from the O:M tour? Huh.
I have to dig back in to QR. I'm trying to find the deluxe version of "Sign Of The Times" (the best of), so I have to expand my search a little. :)
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:omg: How did I not know this?
:lol
How did I not realize, all these years later, that the LIVE:Crime (which I have, and love) wasn't from the O:M tour? Huh.
I have to dig back in to QR. I'm trying to find the deluxe version of "Sign Of The Times" (the best of), so I have to expand my search a little. :)
Stadler -- I would recommend against that. It's really cool, from a packaging standpoint (which I'll eventually get to a bunch of entries from this), but I'd argue it really doesn't do much good from a hits perspective. You're better off getting the 2000 released Greatest Hits package from Capitol/Virgin/EMI -- it has a stone triryche on the cover in gray, with green grass.
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:omg: How did I not know this?
:lol
How did I not realize, all these years later, that the LIVE:Crime (which I have, and love) wasn't from the O:M tour? Huh.
I have to dig back in to QR. I'm trying to find the deluxe version of "Sign Of The Times" (the best of), so I have to expand my search a little. :)
Stadler -- I would recommend against that. It's really cool, from a packaging standpoint (which I'll eventually get to a bunch of entries from this), but I'd argue it really doesn't do much good from a hits perspective. You're better off getting the 2000 released Greatest Hits package from Capitol/Virgin/EMI -- it has a stone triryche on the cover in gray, with green grass.
Even if I want the stuff from the second disk? (I have a copy of the single disk version; someone gave it to me so I took it).
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If you are a completist, then by all means. But if you're a casual fan, not really sure that stuff is worth your time. Again, totally depends on what you are, or what your interest is. If you have the single disc, then disregard my suggestion from earlier.
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About 2 or 3 weeks prior to my 18th birthday, I seen the Building Empires tour in Columbus, Ohio at the old Ohio Center. They had Suicidal opening for them, and I didn't really care for them. But I still consider this to easily be one of the greatest concerts that I've ever seen. My favorite all time QR song is Roads to Madness, and I remember being completely blown away when they played it. The stage presentation was worlds beyond anything that I had seen up to the point in my life. Just an amazing show in every sense of the word.
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Yeah, I wasn't really familiar with Suicidal before this tour. But they put on a great show, so I went and bought Lights, Camera, Revolution. Despite the gratuitous profanity, it is a great album. I never got into any of their other albums, but I still dig that one.
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Yeah, I wasn't really familiar with Suicidal before this tour. But they put on a great show, so I went and bought Lights, Camera, Revolution. Despite the gratuitous profanity, it is a great album. I never got into any of their other albums, but I still dig that one.
That's one of those things with all the times I've seen QR live. I usually never really got into any of the support bands that I seen them with except for Fates Warning when QR was on that co-headline tour with DT. I seen Suicidal, Type O Negative (twice), Pist-On (I think that's how it was spelled) and Jesse James Dupree. None of those bands seemed like a good fit.
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I wouldn't have cared for any of those others either.
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If you're looking for really good bands that opened for Queensryche, the best I ever saw (other than Fates) was doubleDrive.
They've got two records - Thousand Yard Stare and Blue in the Face. I highly recommend the former. I saw them in Chicago and Milwaukee in 1999, and they blew me away. Incredible band. Donnie Hamby (vocalist out of Atlanta area) is the singer.
FYI -- I've got Promised Land ready to go. Gonna give the Empire years another week to marinate. If I see it start to really die down, I'll upload PL. It's a long one.
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... The stage presentation was worlds beyond anything that I had seen up to the point in my life. Just an amazing show in every sense of the word.
I mentioned earlier that I'd seen them in Auburn Hills with my ex (90% of the show is on youtube). I agree with the above, even after having seen KISS and Alice Cooper years earlier. Also, Geoff was an athletic madman.
I purchased the 'Building Empires' VHS tape when it came out. Very satisfied with it. My current wife and I last watched it after the DT 'Escape From The Studio' tour. That is also the time frame that I purchased 'LIVEcrime', as I was disappointed upon its initial release that the entire concert was not included. If it makes sense, I'm glad I waited, as it was something 'new' to me (and ten tons better than 'The Art of Live'). Worth it to a newbie just for the 'Anarchy Xtra' at the end of 'Eyes of A Stranger', and to hear just how good Scott Rockenfield was as a drummer.
But......what's the deal with the crowd noise? It sounds so muffled and fake.
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I have LIVEcrime and the deluxe edition of O:M, which has another live version on it. Both are just outstanding live albums and just great energy from the band. Highly recommended!
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I have LIVEcrime on VHS :lol and CD. Was at the show in Phx on that tour. Was one of the best concerts I ever saw.
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Gonna give the Empire years another week to marinate.
Good. Then another week for Promised Land to urinate. ;D
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the fact that they play it almost note for note like on the record makes at least the audio cd kinda pointless to me. I like it when bands shake things up a bit in the live setting, recreating the studio record isn't really my cup of tea. This is obviously different when being there, you feel the energy, the crowd and everything, but as I said, listening to it on cd afterwards isn't that exciting anymore. On the DVD you have the visuals and it's nice, but I think I onyl watched it two or three times.
There are some differences - the tempo on Needle Lies is even faster than the studio album. They also do the usual stop/start after the solo and little instrumental run in the middle of the song and Geoff showcases his lung power in a few songs with some big-ass sustained notes (the end of Needlie Lies, Eyes of a Stranger, etc.). But to take the official live recording of such a monumental album and tweak it too much during the performance? I don't know if I'd agree with that, but different strokes for different folks. I definitely prefer that it's a very faithful recording and the live sound is enough of a difference for me.
Livecrime is the definitive live Queensryche album/performance for me. The band was on fire and sounds incredible, and it has a perfect mix of old/new Geoff. His voice is killer, and he's just starting to embrace his "acting" on stage without overdoing it and becoming too hammy like he did later on in his career. My cousin's favorite band was Queensryche, and when we discovered our mutual love for the band in the early 2000's and started attending shows together, he commented once about how he loved Geoff doing little things on stage and acting to accentuate the lyrics. I always just wanted him to sing the songs - but on Livecrime, it adds to the performance for me.
Don't get me wrong, seeing it live would be tremendous, and yes shaking things up wouldn't probably really work for such a complex piece. Sadly I missed out on that tour. And yes, the band was on fire and it's great how they are able to reproduce it live with Geoff at the height of his game.
I just don't listen too often to the LIVEcrime audio disc, because when I'm in the mood for Mindcrime the studio version just has a better sound. More oomph and, as someone else said, the audience noise of the live recording sometimes sounds kinda weird. Like added afterwards to the actual recording or something. But it's still a good record.
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Both really good videos, still play them today. Both fell victim to my ex who took a pair of scissors to my vhs collection,
Did she do time for this hate crime?
TAC, I get that. But Livecrime especially is really worth the purchase.
Tim, you are missing out. Big time. I hear ya, but it's such an incredible live album. There was a time that I listened to LIVEcrime instead of Mindcrime, just for the energy.
So much this. LIVEcrime is Top 3 concert DVD for me... Perhaps #1 if I really thought about ranking them. Flawless... absolutely flawless. The only (extremely minor) nit I have is at times it's very noticable where they are cutting between the different nights - like how Tate rips his pants at the knee one night.
I still prefer LIVEcrime over Mindcrime. The two audience participation moments bring chills to me every time - especially the bombastic re-entry by the band both times. Goosebumps just thinking about them!
I bought the VHS/CD when released (really need to dig out the booklet and leaf through that sometime!), and many a times watched/sync'd the two together for my enhanced listening pleasure. This was before I had a VCR that could hook into my stereo system, so I was trying to get the full (and loud as shit) listening experience while watching it. IIRC, the only time the two didn't sync was Tate's commentary between SSM and TNL. Otherwise, it wasn't too difficult to cue them up together.
Two questions ... is Pamela Moore really singing, or just lip-sync'g? I always thought the latter. It just sounds exactly like the studio version, and has that lip-sync feel. Also, backing vocals... same question for the same reason. Were the headphone mic's on just for show, or for realz?
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Yeah, I wasn't really familiar with Suicidal before this tour. But they put on a great show, so I went and bought Lights, Camera, Revolution. Despite the gratuitous profanity, it is a great album. I never got into any of their other albums, but I still dig that one.
That's one of those things with all the times I've seen QR live. I usually never really got into any of the support bands that I seen them with except for Fates Warning when QR was on that co-headline tour with DT. I seen Suicidal, Type O Negative (twice), Pist-On (I think that's how it was spelled) and Jesse James Dupree. None of those bands seemed like a good fit.
ST was by far my favorite QR support band I got to see. Lights, Camera, Revolution is good. I prefer the next album, The Art Of Rebellion. I got to see Type-O. Sadly, I wasn't a fan of theirs at the time. So, I couldn't really appreciate them for what they were. Much better appreciation for them when I saw them open for Megadeth.
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Oh, and for completists out there (TIM, this may be of interest), the entire Nov. 14, 1990 show on audio is available. If you buy the 25th anniversary box set of Operation: Mindcrime, and the 20th Anniversary box set of Empire, the live tracks on both combine to be the ENTIRE Nov. 14, 1990 show if you want to create an iTunes playlist or a compilation CD. It's completely unedited (no overdubs) so you get the full on, live Queensryche performance. It's also a treat because it features one of the very limited performances of "Hand on Heart." So if you can find both those anniversary editions (which are still available), it's worth it.
Sounds like a job for Spotify.
Interestingly, Spotify's version of Empire 20th Anniv includes Hand On Heart between Silent Lucidity and Take Hold.
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The only (extremely minor) nit I have is at times it's very noticable where they are cutting between the different nights - like how Tate rips his pants at the knee one night.
Oh, wow. I actually never noticed that. I always actually thought the transitions were pretty smooth to where you couldn't tell which footage was from which night, but I guess I didn't pick up on some of the small details like that.
Two questions ... is Pamela Moore really singing, or just lip-sync'g? I always thought the latter. It just sounds exactly like the studio version, and has that lip-sync feel. Also, backing vocals... same question for the same reason. Were the headphone mic's on just for show, or for realz?
Samsara might know, but for what it's worth:
I know Pamela Moore was not with them on the whole tour. During the regular shows, her parts were piped in as part of the backing track while her image was up on screen. Not sure whether the vocals were separated out from the rest of the backing track, but I would guess not. Which means that they likely would have then had the backing track with her vocals playing during that show. And if that's the case, I'm guessing she just lip synched during the taping so the audience wouldn't hear two Pamelas.
Regarding the band backing vocals, my guess would be that the band members were actually singing, but that there were also backing tracks to enhance the backing vocals. Chris and Eddie definitely can and do sing. But I know for certain that they used backing tracks for vocals on the PL tour and other tours following. Given the extensive backing track they had on the Building Empires tour, it would not surprise me in the least if there was a backing vocal track that was part of it.
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That just seems lame. I mean, having a backing track because she wasn't go to be there every night makes sense; the part has to be there. But on the nights she's there, let her sing. Why go to the trouble of having her there if she's just gonna lip-sync to the track?
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The only (extremely minor) nit I have is at times it's very noticable where they are cutting between the different nights - like how Tate rips his pants at the knee one night.
Oh, wow. I actually never noticed that. I always actually thought the transitions were pretty smooth to where you couldn't tell which footage was from which night, but I guess I didn't pick up on some of the small details like that.
There's more than a few occasions where the transition between shots puts some of the front 4 at different areas of the stage. Very minor issue, and if you're not aware/looking for it, it's virtually unnoticeable. However, at the end of SSM, when Tate goes tumbling down the metal grate/ramp that Mary/Moore is using as a pedestal, he rips his pants (left leg iirc) one of the nights, and from that point on it's blatantly noticeable when they are interchanging clips of Tate.
*snip on vocal topic*
That's kinda what I was figuring. Thanks for that Bosk.
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Two questions ... is Pamela Moore really singing, or just lip-sync'g? I always thought the latter. It just sounds exactly like the studio version, and has that lip-sync feel. Also, backing vocals... same question for the same reason. Were the headphone mic's on just for show, or for realz?
It is her studio album take to my ear. She sang live, but I am guessing they just replaced her vocal. As for the background vocals, I don't know. Chris is a very good and consistent singer. So I am going to assume his were on. But while Eddie is a good singer, he can get pitchy, so it wouldn't surprise me if they swapped out his live vocal later with some studio ones. And Michael's headset is a joke. His vocal parts are very minor, so I am guessing they piped his in later too.
Interestingly, Spotify's version of Empire 20th Anniv includes Hand On Heart between Silent Lucidity and Take Hold.
For that gig (which I think is the last one it was played, if memory serves, that is the correct spot. It was in the encore.
That just seems lame. I mean, having a backing track because she wasn't go to be there every night makes sense; the part has to be there. But on the nights she's there, let her sing. Why go to the trouble of having her there if she's just gonna lip-sync to the track?
She did sing at her appearances (which were in Japan, some in Europe, and these tapings if I remember right). But remember, given the amount of money it cost to professionally film live shows back then, if she had an off night (I'd have to go pull the bootleg to find out, I am pretty sure I have that run of Wisconsin shows), they probably just dumped in the album track later.
The band did play to a backing track on the tour (and did from the Empire tour onward) but it was more because of all the animation and film stuff they had synched up. But it was pretty low, and was meant as a guide more than anything. Everyone played/sang live as far as I know.
re: transitions -- yeah, the editing job isn't perfect if you're looking to find fault with it. It's certainly there. But honestly, I never really noticed all that much.
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That just seems lame. I mean, having a backing track because she wasn't go to be there every night makes sense; the part has to be there. But on the nights she's there, let her sing. Why go to the trouble of having her there if she's just gonna lip-sync to the track?
She did sing at her appearances (which were in Japan, some in Europe, and these tapings if I remember right). But remember, given the amount of money it cost to professionally film live shows back then, if she had an off night (I'd have to go pull the bootleg to find out, I am pretty sure I have that run of Wisconsin shows), they probably just dumped in the album track later.
The band did play to a backing track on the tour (and did from the Empire tour onward) but it was more because of all the animation and film stuff they had synched up. But it was pretty low, and was meant as a guide more than anything. Everyone played/sang live as far as I know.
Ah, so the lip-synching is just on the video, it was live at the actual shows? I was confused. That's better, I suppose. But unless she really had an off-night, like so bad that it would ruin the song, I'd still rather hear what went over the P.A. than what they lifted from the album. And that's why they shoot multiple nights.
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I am assuming it was live at the shows. Pamela is a great singer, so I assume she was live.
I think most should assume a lot of the live stuff recorded in the late 80s and early 90s -- it was all done live, but stuff was taken out and replaced with studio versions later. That's pretty much the way it worked. Nowadays, the vocalists simply go down to the studio and recut it "live in studio" to clean things up if they missed a note or something. Back then, that was probably cost prohibitive.
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Interestingly, Spotify's version of Empire 20th Anniv includes Hand On Heart between Silent Lucidity and Take Hold.
For that gig (which I think is the last one it was played, if memory serves, that is the correct spot. It was in the encore.
Gotchya. It's just that both last.fm and anybodylistening.net (what a hack that guy is!) don't list it on the 11-14-90 setlist.
re: transitions -- yeah, the editing job isn't perfect if you're looking to find fault with it. It's certainly there. But honestly, I never really noticed all that much.
It's only the ripped pants that stand out to me. It's like Shannon Doherty's wonky eyes... once you see it, you can't unsee it.
But unless she really had an off-night, like so bad that it would ruin the song, I'd still rather hear what went over the P.A. than what they lifted from the album. And that's why they shoot multiple nights.
:iagree:
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Interestingly, Spotify's version of Empire 20th Anniv includes Hand On Heart between Silent Lucidity and Take Hold.
For that gig (which I think is the last one it was played, if memory serves, that is the correct spot. It was in the encore.
Gotchya. It's just that both last.fm and anybodylistening.net (what a hack that guy is!) don't list it on the 11-14-90 setlist.
Sheesh that guy, he's such a moron. :lol That's because I got the date wrong in talking about it here! It's 11/15/90, and yes, it's on the setlist -- https://anybodylistening.net/11-15-90.html
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re: transitions -- yeah, the editing job isn't perfect if you're looking to find fault with it. It's certainly there. But honestly, I never really noticed all that much.
It's only the ripped pants that stand out to me. It's like Shannon Doherty's wonky eyes... once you see it, you can't unsee it.
I thought I was the only one that couldn't look at her without noticing that. :)
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re: transitions -- yeah, the editing job isn't perfect if you're looking to find fault with it. It's certainly there. But honestly, I never really noticed all that much.
It's only the ripped pants that stand out to me. It's like Shannon Doherty's wonky eyes... once you see it, you can't unsee it.
I thought I was the only one that couldn't look at her without noticing that. :)
Woohh boy. I guess I'm in the minority of disliking LIVEcrime for its wonky editing, and really odd audio mix? Maybe it's a live product of its time, and I'm just not used to that sort of editing? I digress.
For official live stuff, I always listen to the 2nd Hammersmith '90 show. That one has a much better audio mix to my ears :o
Beating a dead horse with this, but it's such a shame it's not economically feasible for the band to dig up the original film negatives, and put out a re-mastered Blu-ray version :metal
As for Hand on Heart, some earlier shows like Nottingham '90, has the song placed much earlier in the set. There's also a Japanese show from Feb. '91, featuring the song (whole show in 1 video on YouTube, just audio).
Building Empires is great, and it flows really well, interspersed with the "interview" footage of the band. :corn
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I bought the VHS/CD when released (really need to dig out the booklet and leaf through that sometime!), and many a times watched/sync'd the two together for my enhanced listening pleasure. This was before I had a VCR that could hook into my stereo system, so I was trying to get the full (and loud as shit) listening experience while watching it. IIRC, the only time the two didn't sync was Tate's commentary between SSM and TNL. Otherwise, it wasn't too difficult to cue them up together.
I thought I was the only one who did crazy things like that :D I remember doing this with a VHS->cassette made from Queen's Montreal '81 concert, so that I could blast it in my basement den decades ago. And....'Wizard of Oz'/'Dark Side of the Moon' (if that counts).
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As for Hand on Heart, some earlier shows like Nottingham '90, has the song placed much earlier in the set. There's also a Japanese show from Feb. '91, featuring the song (whole show in 1 video on YouTube, just audio).
Yep, they did it once on that run too. It wasn't something they did regularly after Nov. 1990. My guess is, because they were doing a bunch of shows there (like on the Mindcrime headline tour) they wanted to play everything they had rehearsed and knew up to that point, to give them as much difference as possible. Hand on heart wasn't played at every show in Japan 1991, however. Just one or two.
And yes, on the song changing spots in the set. It debuted up higher in the setlist, right after Best I Can. My guess is, it moved to the encore after it had been decided it wouldn't be regularly played.
I should add as well (I forget if I put this in the write-up) -- Queensryche did soundcheck "One and Only" a bunch, but they never thought it quite came off well live, and the original lineup never played it in concert. The first time they did it was the American Soldier tour, if memory serves (I'm a bit hazy on post-2005 Queensryche live stuff).
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^I think you may be right on the AS tour. They were basically playing all (or most) of Empire, Rage, and AS on a rotating basis, so that makes sense.
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Oh, and for completists out there (TIM, this may be of interest), the entire Nov. 14, 1990 show on audio is available. If you buy the 25th anniversary box set of Operation: Mindcrime, and the 20th Anniversary box set of Empire, the live tracks on both combine to be the ENTIRE Nov. 14, 1990 show if you want to create an iTunes playlist or a compilation CD. It's completely unedited (no overdubs) so you get the full on, live Queensryche performance. It's also a treat because it features one of the very limited performances of "Hand on Heart." So if you can find both those anniversary editions (which are still available), it's worth it.
Just ran through this on Spotify. Good god this thread is worth it for this post alone. Love this mix of Mindcrime (notwithstanding the somewhat dampened audience participation - though it's without doubt cranked up on LIVEcrime as a result of post-production). I'm now beginning to question whether Moore was lip sync'g on LIVEcrime, because she absolutely nails it here. There are a handful of subtle cadence and pitch changes here and there, but otherwise it's virtually identical to the studio version.
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Re: moore...are you saying you think she did, or because of the nov 15 show, you think she did not? Pamela is an amazing singer. I dont think she ever lip synched. They may have substituted her live vocal for the studio vocal on livecrime (i dont know), but knowing her, i doubt she would have faked it on stage. Shes too good, and too honest of a person.
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Re: moore...are you saying you think she did, or because of the nov 15 show, you think she did not? Pamela is an amazing singer. I dont think she ever lip synched. They may have substituted her live vocal for the studio vocal on livecrime (i dont know), but knowing her, i doubt she would have faked it on stage. Shes too good, and too honest of a person.
Yeah, the latter... let me clarify. I'm NOT in any way saying that she would have lip-sync'd the actual LIVEcrime show(s) in Wisconsin. Just (as you correctly pointed out) that the CD/video could be dubbed with the studio tracks (ergo, watching the video seems like she's lip-sync'g). However, after listening to Hammersmith, she performs it so meticulously close to the studio version, it wouldn't surprise me if the LIVEcrime CD/video is what was actually recorded in Wisconsin those three nights.
Make sense?
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Re: moore...are you saying you think she did, or because of the nov 15 show, you think she did not? Pamela is an amazing singer. I dont think she ever lip synched. They may have substituted her live vocal for the studio vocal on livecrime (i dont know), but knowing her, i doubt she would have faked it on stage. Shes too good, and too honest of a person.
Yeah, the latter... let me clarify. I'm NOT in any way saying that she would have lip-sync'd the actual LIVEcrime show(s) in Wisconsin. Just (as you correctly pointed out) that the CD/video could be dubbed with the studio tracks (ergo, watching the video seems like she's lip-sync'g). However, after listening to Hammersmith, she performs it so meticulously close to the studio version, it wouldn't surprise me if the LIVEcrime CD/video is what was actually recorded in Wisconsin those three nights.
Make sense?
I gotcha. Yep. And I agree with you.
OK folks, anything left on Building Empires/LIVEcrime/Empire -- get on it through this weekend. Come Monday: "The road to the Promised Land is a long one. Shall we...continue?"
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Searching for the answers
but there's damage ...
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I just hope we don't break the forum with all the discussion of the Promised Land CD rom game! :caffeine:
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Picking up the pieces of the forum....no direction...no direction...no direction...no direction for re-assembly.
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I just hope we don't break the forum with all the discussion of the Promised Land CD rom game! :caffeine:
Are you sure the forum won't break when we dissect Geoff's choice in stage attire for the album's tour?
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/7-26-95-3.jpg)
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If not now than probably at the time we reach the cabaret thing ;D
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I just hope we don't break the forum with all the discussion of the Promised Land CD rom game! :caffeine:
Are you sure the forum won't break when we dissect Geoff's choice in stage attire for the album's tour?
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/7-26-95-3.jpg)
:lol Yeah, there's that. Although, in context of the set, it at least made sense and didn't really hint too much at the future creepiness that would be the Cabaret. And speaking of "the context of the set," it was actually pretty cool how he got to that particular wardrobe choice as part of the story.
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Thank god this is a DISCOGRAPHY thread...so...I'll sorta be like...skipping the Cabaret. I know you're all SO disappointed. :lol
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I even forgot it existed :lol I know they did some concerts as a cabaret act, but I'm unsure of the specific details and I'm not sure I wanna know them :biggrin:
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Thank god this is a DISCOGRAPHY thread...so...I'll sorta be like...skipping the Cabaret. I know you're all SO disappointed. :lol
Not so fast, sir! Mosh already set the bar in the Maiden thread about discussing the relevant tour for each album. And you've thus far followed suit. You CANNOT miss out on discussing the Cabaret shows. Especially since there will probably be more discussion of that than the album itself.
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I've wanted to check out Livecrime but its been a busy week and I haven't really had time. Maybe tomorrow.
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Thank god this is a DISCOGRAPHY thread...so...I'll sorta be like...skipping the Cabaret. I know you're all SO disappointed. :lol
Not so fast, sir! Mosh already set the bar in the Maiden thread about discussing the relevant tour for each album. And you've thus far followed suit. You CANNOT miss out on discussing the Cabaret shows. Especially since there will probably be more discussion of that than the album itself.
No no no. The Cabaret debacle was NOT "in support" of anything (heh). So nope, nope, nope. The tours discussed will coincide with the records. Not one off legs that had nothing to do with any record. (I love me some loopholes.) :lol
I've wanted to check out Livecrime but its been a busy week and I haven't really had time. Maybe tomorrow.
I haven't watched it in a long time. The Mrs. is really soured by Queensryche these days because of the last several years, so I avoid putting any on with her in the room. But tomorrow I need to build some furniture and she'll be gone for the day, so I am going to crank up both LIVEcrime and Building Empires back to back. My home stereo set up is pretty powerful, so it should be awesome (I have yet to crank anything Queensryche on it).
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But tomorrow I need to build some furniture Empires.
Do tell. :mindcrime:
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Re: moore...are you saying you think she did, or because of the nov 15 show, you think she did not? Pamela is an amazing singer. I dont think she ever lip synched. They may have substituted her live vocal for the studio vocal on livecrime (i dont know), but knowing her, i doubt she would have faked it on stage. Shes too good, and too honest of a person.
Yeah, the latter... let me clarify. I'm NOT in any way saying that she would have lip-sync'd the actual LIVEcrime show(s) in Wisconsin. Just (as you correctly pointed out) that the CD/video could be dubbed with the studio tracks (ergo, watching the video seems like she's lip-sync'g). However, after listening to Hammersmith, she performs it so meticulously close to the studio version, it wouldn't surprise me if the LIVEcrime CD/video is what was actually recorded in Wisconsin those three nights.
Make sense?
I must say that I never thought her vocal on livecrime was lip synced. There's a raspiness to the "to" part of "tonight" that isn't there on the album.
Watching it back now I'm not sure. But I need to know. Damn you dtf 😀
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I had never even thought about it until the question was asked. My only point was, given the logistics of the tour (i.e., that they had a backing track that included her vocals, and that it likely didn't have her vocals separated out such that they could be removed at those few shows where she was actually there), it makes sense to me that it likely would have been lip synced. And that option still makes the most sense to me, notwithstanding her singing ability. But, again, I am only speculating.
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Ok terry, we need an answer mate 😀
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You could always ask Pamela Moore herself ;)
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So I finally got around to checking a few clips of LIVEcrime on youtube. I must say, that as a video, I'm not really in love with it. I hate slow motion added stuff to concert vids. Just not a fan of the camera shots.
Audio wise it seemed very good though.
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You could always ask Pamela Moore herself ;)
Doing so is, IMO, disrespectful. There's no need to do that. Obviously, the woman can sing incredibly. Most of us have seen it. The only purpose asking her serves is to make her feel self conscious. Even if the answer is no, the fact someone would seek her out and asked if she lip-syched something is kinda wrong, at least in my book. It's very common, particularly back then when it was expensive to put out live videos, for studio vocals to be swapped in for a live vocal, just for consistency's sake. So, if that did indeed happen (and after re-watching, I tend to think it did), it is what it is. :)
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Promised Land (1994)
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/pl.jpg)
Lineup:
Lead Vocals – Geoff Tate
Lead & Rhythm Guitars/Vocals – Chris DeGarmo
Lead & Rhythm Guitars – Michael Wilton
Bass & Vocals – Eddie Jackson
Drums & Percussion – Scott Rockenfield
Pre-Promised Land Overview
Following Queensryche's one-off performance at the Rock the Environment show in June 1992, the band was not publicly heard from again for a year. Then, on June 8, 1993, the motion picture soundtrack for The Last Action Hero was released featuring “Real World,” a tune co-written by Queensryche and Michael Kamen. Although no real information exists on when and how the song was written and recorded, “Real World” was put out as a single and did very well for Queensryche, peaking at #3 in the U.S. Mainstream Rock chart.
Featuring both acoustic and electric guitars, the song begins fairly mellow before picking up in intensity toward the end with Kamen's orchestration. Lyrically, “Real World” is quite melancholy, ironically summing up where some of the band (notably, Geoff Tate) were at mentally at the time. The vibe would continue throughout Queensryche's next studio album, Promised Land, which would be released 14 months later on Oct. 18, 1994.
To better understand why it took four years from Empire to Promised Land, a brief “behind the scenes” look is required. Following the long Building Empires tour, the band went their separate ways for a while. During that time, Geoff Tate and Scott Rockenfield both got divorced, Eddie Jackson's video game stores that he had invested in went under (or were on the verge of going under), investments made by Michael Wilton in chocolate and coffee went south, and Wilton was also trying to recover from some dependency issues (he had an alter ego called “SPIKE” back in the day that reared its head when he had consumed too much alcohol – on the Promised Land tour, he had a statement that “SPIKE IS DEAD” on his guitar picks, if I remember right). Chris DeGarmo was the most stable of the group, but even he was starting to feel the strain of being out on the road and having a family grow up without him (Chris' dad left him, his brother, and his mom when Chris was young, and Chris didn't want to be an absent parent and husband). It was during this time that he earned his initial pilot's license, setting the stage for his future profession.
So, while Queensryche had its most successful period as a band, there were a lot of personal issues that the five guys were going through that affected their ability to get creative and write a follow-up to Empire. In fact, Tate went from stardom to living on his boat, with his ex-wife having been awarded all his royalty rights to all material through the Empire album (which was a tidy sum back then given how big album sales were and how popular Queensryche music was). Out of respect, I won't get into what led to the divorce, but trust me when I say -- don't feel bad for Tate on this one. It's rumored that DeGarmo helped keep a roof over Tate's head during this period, and ultimately, it was Chris that would help keep Queensryche together. Had he not, Empire might very well have been Queensryche's swan song.
The Promised Land Sessions
Eventually, Chris was able to get all five guys together, along with whatever song ideas they had and they went up to the San Juan Islands in the Pacific Northwest to write and record. The initial idea was to get away from the distractions of home and focus on music. For the first few weeks, it didn't go as planned, however. The guys were consumed with various issues at home and it took a while to get everyone on the same page. According to some of the legal documents stemming from the Tate v. Queensryche lawsuit in 2012 (https://www.anybodylistening.net/lawsuit.html), there were allegedly some violent outbursts by and issues with Tate and other incidents that really derailed the initial attempts at creating an album.
Band members (notably Tate and Rockenfield) also were getting into new relationships at the time, which began changing the dynamic between the band members. As Dan “Shag” Birchall (an old friend of the band) once said (paraphrasing): Not everyone liked and supported the new people now in their lives, which ultimately could have had an impact on the working relationship within the band.
As time went by, however, Queensryche's stay at “Big Log” started to pay off. The moodier direction the band was taking was embraced, and songs started to take shape. At the helm of the sessions was James “Jimbo” Barton, who acted as co-producer, engineer and mixer. He was more of a “sixth member” of Queensryche, helping Chris unite everyone. It wasn't easy, even when the band was being creative.
For example, according to a friend of mine who asked Tate about the song “Promised Land,” back in the late 1990s, Tate recalled that he couldn't quite capture the emotion that Jimbo Barton was looking for and it got extremely frustrating. The two went out drinking, Tate got hammered, came back to the studio and nailed the vocal in one take. Tate also (seriously) warned my friend to never listen to the song while in a depressed state, alluding to suicidal thoughts prevalent in the tune.
The Songs and Theme
Promised Land is not a concept record. Fans initially thought (and wrote some interesting theories how) it was a sequel of sorts to Operation: Mindcrime, but it isn't. Promised Land is a theme that follows a person's life from birth to maturity, taking the listener on a trip through all the emotions of reaching the pinnacle of “success” only to learn how much that success cost a person. Although the record is not completely autobiographical, much of the record is driven by Tate's own self-examination, with some tunes featuring experiences by DeGarmo.
Although I hesitate to do song-by-song recaps, as they are obviously really subjective, for Promised Land, to give an idea of the theme and what the band was trying to express, I decided to do a brief one, for clarity and discussion purposes (again, these are only my interpretations):
9:28 a,m. - birth. This is actually the time Scott Rockenfield was born, and he composed the instrumental interlude that starts the record.
I Am I – The lead single from Promised Land. A song about self awareness. Coming of age. Making that statement that you are your own person and committed to being that person.
Damaged – the title pretty much sums up the song meaning. The recognition of a traumatic event in someone's life that has injured them mentally, emotionally, and having to pick up the pieces of their life and move forward.
Out of Mind – this song deviates from the first person narrative of the record. During Tate's 2017 acoustic tour, he talked about the genesis of this tune. Apparently Tate's mother worked in a mental hospital, and back in the 1960s, she took Tate to work with her. Tate explained what he remembered of the patients' behavior to DeGarmo, who got inspired and came back the next evening with “Out of Mind” completely written.
Bridge – this song was the second single from Promised Land and tells the story of a deadbeat parent who comes back into the life of their grown child, wanting a relationship after having abandoned the child years before. Tate introduced this song in 1997 by saying: “This song was written by my good friend Mr. DeGarmo here, who was man enough to write it, and share it with us all. This is called “Bridge.”
Promised Land – the centerpiece and title track of the record, “Promised Land” is a mixture of Tate's personal angst upon achieving success with Empire, and the band members' experience. In a nutshell, the track examines life after the pinnacle of what people call “success” and what's left once you reach that mountain top. It showcases the darker side of success, touching upon alcoholism and suicide.
Dis-con-nec-ted – Lyrically, it's pretty self-explanatory. A person, after going through whatever life troubles they have, is in a bad state, is likely loaded and self-medicating to get through life, coming to the realization of the shape he or she is in. It was the third of three videos shot for the album. Obviously, everything is open to interpretation...
Lady Jane – probably to some the track that would lyrically be the most debatable on the record. I've seen synopsis that range from as simple as a child getting high to sexual abuse. You'd have to ask DeGarmo, but given the amount of drugs the band consumed at one time (they didn't earn the nickname “Krellryche” from Metallica for nothing), there's certainly a theme of self-medicating going on...
My Global Mind – the one track (maybe two if you consider Lady Jane) that doesn't quite fit the overall theme of the record, unless you stretch it. Social commentary by Queensryche on the way the Internet is changing the way humans interact with one another. Pretty interesting if you look at it through a 2017 lens...and how right they were...
One More Time – a song of regret, of wisdom, of second chances. Are we better off than our parents were at the same age? Yes...and no. As we wind down, the character present throughout the theme of the record is awakening to find himself.
Someone Else? - a tune about finally coming to peace with who you are, Realizing the mistakes made in youth, and the sacrifices that were made were, in some ways, regrettable. Looking back at the life you led and not recognizing the person that's there. The move forward into the second half of life.
CD Singles
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The Music
If Operation: Mindcrime was the more Iron Maiden/Judas Priest side of Queensryche, then Promised Land features the more cerebral hard rock, Pink Floyd-like portion of the band. It retains some aggressive, metal moments (“Damaged” in particular), but embraces a more introspective, dark and mid-tempo vibe overall.
The writing for Promised Land took place mostly in 1993 and spring/summer 1994, during the height of the “grunge” movement. Curiously, while past records from Queensryche incorporated elements of whatever trend was popular in music at the time (the band always changing styles to a degree from album to album), Promised Land was an oddity. The 11-track effort builds off of Empire to a degree (mostly in production), but the songs are clearly not influenced by grunge, nor do they harken back to Queensryche's “metal years.” They stand alone as what could arguably considered the most “pure” snapshot of the band's “own” sound.
Acoustic guitars played a critical role on tunes such as “Bridge,” and “Out of Mind” (to this writer a clear attempt to capitalize on the success of “Silent Lucidity” and the MTV unplugged sessions - albeit a natural artistic progression for DeGarmo), but the record as a whole really seemed built more on creating an overall mood than looking for a hit single. The result is a roller coaster that really runs the gamut of emotion and style from the quirky sitar-laced opener “I Am I,” to the aggressive metal guitars in “Damaged” to the piano-only closer of “Someone Else?” Instrumentation-wise, Promised Land was the most adventurous in the band's career to this point, also featuring cello, saxophone, and keyboard arrangements.
Of note is “Dis-con-nec-ted.” Although a single, albeit not a popular one, it is distinct in the Queensryche catalog. It features a shuffle beat and a quirky spoken word vocal delivery by Tate (not the first time – think back to Rage for Order's unreleased demo title track). As the story goes, Rockenfield composed the song on keyboard, and DeGarmo translated it to guitar. I don't recall exactly, but I think there was some disagreement on that move between the drummer and guitarist. Rumor has it Rockenfield had gotten a little jealous of DeGarmo's status after the success of “Silent Lucidity,” and made a focused effort to become a full-fledged songwriter starting with Promised Land. He'd gravitate toward film/game/TV scoring in the future on side projects and achieve some success (more on that later).
It should also be noted that Promised Land marks the decline of Michael Wilton as a major songwriter in Queensryche. From the EP through Empire, Wilton was a significant writing force for the band, both on his own or in tandem with DeGarmo. Wilton usually provided the more aggressive, straightforward metal riffs and you could tell a song was likely something he wrote when you heard it. He was typically credited on at least half the tracks on all those previous records. But on Promised Land, Wilton took a back seat, getting just co-writing credit with the entire band on the title track, and with Rockenfield and Tate on “My Global Mind.” Wilton's contributions would ebb and flow from this point forward, until Queensryche's self-titled release in 2013. At that point, he became a steadfast major contributor again.
Interesting fact: If you search YouTube, or play the Big Log disc of the Promised Land CD-Rom game (see below), you'll catch a clip of DeGarmo singing lead vocals on “Bridge.”
Four b-sides exist for the record. The aforementioned “Real World,” is the first (I count it as such, some may not). Another is a track called “Dirty Lil' Secret” that was erroneously (in my opinion) placed on the Empire remaster in 2003. That tune was written at some point in 1993, and has a vibe (albeit using some social commentary lyrics) quite like “Last Time in Paris.” If you haven't heard it, I encourage checking it out. That vibe probably is why it was put on the Empire remaster, even though chronologically, it doesn't belong with it. It has a snarky feel to it that didn't fit Promised Land, but it is a lost “gem” of a tune.
The third b-side is the full band version of “Someone Else?” What folks may not know is that “Someone Else?” was actually originally written with the full band, and that version (which has extended lyrics and running time) was to be the closer of Promised Land. However, with some extra time on his hands at the end of the recording sessions, DeGarmo ended up doing a piano version of the song and was so enamored by the emotion of it, he and the band decided to use it as the “main” version of the song to end the record. So the originally-recorded full-band rendition became a b-side.
The final b-side is a little acoustic ditty called “Two Mile High” that I consider to be with Promised Land. We'll get into what this track is a little further down below. However, it was technically written after the Promised Land sessions.
Interesting fact: The vocals for the piano version of “Someone Else?” were not re-recorded. Chris and Jimbo Barton simply spliced the vocals onto the piano track from the initial full band version. That's likely why it sounds like Tate is singing a little harsher at times on the track than the piano really calls for - he never had a chance to re-record those parts for the more low key version.
In addition, a third version of “Someone Else?” exists. When the band played the song live, they combined the two versions, with DeGarmo and Tate starting it, with Eddie and Scott coming in gradually (and understated), with Wilton coming in and accentuating the emotion of the song with a lead guitar. This version was played throughout the band's 1995 tour in support of Promised Land.
Queensryche released three videos for Promised Land: “I Am I,” “Bridge” and “Dis-con-nec-ted.” While the first two got fairly regular play (at first) on MTV, the latter was barely played at all. In addition, as seen above, "Someone Else?" was a promotional single.
Miscellaneous
The iconic tri-ryche totem pole was created by Victoria, British Columbia artist Harold Alfred – https://haroldalfred.com/. It was then digitally illustrated by Hugh Syme for the cover of the record. Taking the liner notes from the CD, it opens to reveal the full cover art, which acts as a poster on one side, and the lyrics on the other. On the opposite side with the lyrics, is the “nailhead” guy, inspired by the line in “Damaged” that goes “driving the nail into my head, memory flows...like a river.” Both the totem cover and the nailhead guy served as popular t-shirts during the record's support tour.
See Part II below (original post was too long)
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Promised Land (1994) - continued...
Reception
Let's be blunt – Promised Land wasn't well received initially. Critics and various fans didn't get what Queensryche was doing, particularly after a ton of pre-release hype and four years since Empire had been a smashing success. Then again, fans quickly forgot that Rage for Order and Operation: Mindcrime were also criticized when they were first released as well. So, slow starts were nothing new to the band.
Queensryche did a lot of promotional work leading up to Promised Land's debut, doing promotional gigs in Europe, along with a radio show tour to talk about the album. Ultimately, Promised Land sold over one million copies, which while notable, and platinum status, is a far cry from the 3.5 million sales of Empire. So, from a commercial standpoint, the record (unfairly in this writer's opinion) was considered a “flop.”
From a fan's perspective, Promised Land is divisive. Many of the mainstream hard rock fans Queensryche gained with Empire didn't “get” the weird vibe of “I Am I” and didn't purchase the record, or they had moved onto other bands by 1994. Long-time fans were also split. Those that considered Empire to be a bit on the commercial side and were looking for Queensryche to get “more metal” again were sorely disappointed. Whereas fans who liked the more mid-tempo, darker tone of Queensryche, or simply those fans who straddled the line, were able to embrace Promised Land a bit more readily.
However you slice it, Promised Land didn't resonate the way EMI Records, nor the band, was hoping it would.
Touring
The support to for Promised Land, dubbed “The Road to the Promised Land Tour,” was a visual spectacle. Building upon the dramatics of the Building Empires tour, Queensryche played the entirety of Promised Land, along with hits from Empire and across the rest of their catalog. The stage set consisted of various video screens depicting animations to go along with most songs, and a complete set change for the performance of “Promised Land” (it was a bar scene, with the band dressed up as a lounge act). Fans were invited up to sit at the bar as Tate and the band performed the song.Tate would change outfits every few songs, including having his clothes “ripped away” going into “Damaged.” He was also put into a strait jacket and wheeled around in a wheelchair during “Out of Mind.”
Time-wise, the show was a little shorter than the Building Empires tour, but still more than a full two-hour set, including a two-song encore. Tate publicly debuted his saxophone playing on “Promised Land,” and the band also played an abridged versions of “Neue Regel” and a medley of “NM 156” and “Screaming in Digital,” stopping each song (unfortunately) before their respective guitar solos.
Overall, and counting the promotional gigs in the latter half of 1994 that Queensryche played, the tour in support of Promised Land lasted just over five months – a dramatic decrease from the 14-month Building Empires tour. The main tour began on Feb. 9, 1995 with two months in Europe and Japan. That was followed by three months across the United States, starting on April 14, 1995 in Kalamazoo, Mich., and concluding on July 27, 1995 in Toronto, Canada.
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/ch6-1.jpg) (https://anybodylistening.net/images/ch6-2.jpg) (https://anybodylistening.net/images/pl-live2.jpg) (https://anybodylistening.net/images/pl-live.jpg)
Interesting fact: During the late 1994 promotional stops in Europe, Queensryche played (as an outro/intro to commercial) an instrumental version of The Rolling Stones' “Waiting on a Friend,” featuring Tate on saxophone.
Queensryche fans got a bit like fans of the Grateful Dead on the Promised Land tour. Many traveled the summer with the band, following their buses. Queensryche was much more accessible on this tour than they were on the Building Empires tour, and the band built relationships with many fans on the trek. Tate would say something in regard to those traveling with the band during most shows. They also played softball games and had picnics periodically during the tour.
During this time, Queensryche was extremely fan-friendly when it came to recording their shows. They opened “tapers sections” in many venues, enabling people to film and record each gig. There was also a request from the fan club that footage be sent to the band for a release they wanted to put together to commemorate the tour. Unfortunately, nothing came from this alleged project.
Promised Land CD-Rom
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Once the tour finished, Queensryche began work on another project called the Promised Land CD-Rom. Released in 1996, it was a video game in the style of the 90s classic “MYST” where the player would adventure around and solve a mystery. In this instance, the player would walk around the island where Queensryche recorded Promised Land, visiting the various “worlds” assigned to each band member. The idea was to visit these areas, solve a challenge, collect pieces of the Queensryche Promised Land totem pole, and collect the prize. That prize was a song recorded specifically for the game – “Two Mile High.” The song is a simple acoustic tune about flying, most likely written by DeGarmo, given the topic.
On a second disc, players could examine a version of “Big Log” the studio where Queensryche actually recorded Promised Land. As players move around and check out certain aspects, they discover various video clips, including segments on the making of the album. All three videos shot for Promised Land were also hidden items meant to be found during the game.
Overall, the game was intended to tide fans over until work was completed on Queensryche's next album, which would arrive in 1997.
Samsara's top-3 from Promised Land: "Damaged," "Promised Land," "One More Time"
Next up: Hear in the Now Frontier...
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Wow, I never knew that game existed. I was a huge fan of the Myst series too. That would been fun to play.
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Wow, I never knew that game existed. I was a huge fan of the Myst series too. That would been fun to play.
You can still grab it if you're interested enough.
https://www.amazon.com/Queensryches-Promised-Land/dp/B000002UQ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1500910188&sr=8-1&keywords=Queensryche+Promised+Land+CD-Rom
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Album Thoughts:
When I saw QR for the first time in 1999, I still didn't have Promised Land. I think I knew that it wasn't like the older records, but I liked when they played Damaged from it, so I bought it not long after the show. Initially, I only liked Damaged, I Am I, Bridge, My Global Mind, and Someone Else. The rest just wasn't heavy enough for me. 10 years later, I became very dissatisfied with my employment situation and I sat up late one night and listened to the album since I was in a mood for something dark and moody. When I got to the title track, the song just spoke to me. I now know the mistakes that I made while working there, but hearing those lyrics about keeping your nose to the grindstone and always reaching for the brass ring and coming up short felt so true then.
I don't listen to it much anymore (same with American Soldier) due to the heavy lyrical content, but I'll have to remedy that soon due to this thread.
Tour thoughts:
I wasn't into the band when the tour originally happened, but have one of the bootlegs (Dayton video, and the San Jose audio) and loved it when I was really into the band. It was a great setlist, with the entire album represented, a huge Mindcrime suite, and some nice selections for older tracks that really weren't featured on the Empire tour. Looking back at the tour, and reading those lawsuit documents, I can see where Geoff's live performances started to veer off from the traditional performing and more towards acting on stage, but at the time, it was definitely a cool show.
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I had no idea that when I saw them in Kzoo that it was the opening show.
Samsara, I also didn't know that you could top your previous album write ups and background information.
Thank you.
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I had no idea that when I saw them in Kzoo that it was the opening show.
Samsara, I also didn't know that you could top your previous album write ups and background information.
Thank you.
You're welcome! These are fun. Really enjoying trying to remember all this stuff. Plus, Mosh has uped the ante on his Maiden discography discourse, so I am trying my best to keep up. Ha ha ha. :hefdaddy
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My story on this record begins on release day. :lol I didn't watch much MTV back in 1994. I worked full time, was going to college full time, and while my love for the band didn't wane, I was pretty dis-con-nec-ted from the latest going on with Queensryche, although I do remember seeing the video for I Am I and not quite liking it. I remember release date pretty vividly, however. I had two classes that morning. 7:30 a.m. - 9:50 a.m., and 10 a.m. to 11:20 a.m. I got done with class, and drove to The Wiz (it was a local chain on Long Island) on my way home. And there it was, a huge display of Promised Land. I had no cash at the time, and I had yet to apply for my first credit card. So I went home, and my mother had just come home for lunch from work. I asked her for $20 until I got paid on Friday, and then sped to The Wiz to pick up the CD.
I didn't have a CD player in my car, so the wait to get home (which was a 10 minute drive) was ridiculously unbearable. ha ha ha. Got home, closed the door, put the album on...and thought it was pretty shitty. :lol :lol :lol
I was totally expecting something akin to Mindcrime and Empire, and while I had seen I Am I, I was hoping that the record would get better. I loved Damaged, and thought some of the other tracks were OK, but I just didn't get it. It wasn't a very deep listen. I just had it on my little boombox stereo I had in my bedroom. I also didn't read the lyrics.
Fast-forward a few days later. I got home from work (I kept a crazy schedule back then, going to class from 7 a.m. to 11:20, and then working from 2 p.m. to 10 p.m.) and just laid down in bed and put the album on my CD walkman on headphones, and just read the lyrics as the music played. It hit me like a...two-ton, heavy thing. I didn't quite understand at the time what was going on with Tate or DeGarmo, but the emotion in the songs hit me hard. This wasn't a record to rock out to. It was an album to immerse yourself in.
And that's what I did. For weeks. And I fell pretty hard for the emotional impact Promised Land gave me. I still thought Damaged was the best song on it (and still do), but the title track, Bridge, One More Time, My Global Mind and Someone Else really resonated. It was different, but it was certainly Queensryche, and I was all on board.
I can't recall if this was the Christmas (Christmas 1994) my mother bought me all the QR CD singles, but she could have. At some point, remembering that she didn't permit me to go to the Building Empires tour, she went ahead and went to a downtown music shop that I frequented and bought up all the CD singles from Queensryche that were in the store. Best I Can, JCW, Eyes of a Stranger, Another Rainy Night (I think those were it -- I bought the others later).
But it was announced (I guess a few months later) that Queensryche would be on tour, coming to Jones Beach for Promised Land. My mom worked at a local radio station, and she got me two tickets to see Queensryche as a gift, again, making up for Building Empires. What a treat. It would end up being my first concert, other than some oldies show years prior. July 18, 1995, my buddy Rob and I rolled up to the Jones Beach parking lot, hearing tailgaters blasting Queensryche, tons of people in tour shirts...man, I was in my element. We had such a good time. We bought t-shirts and tourbooks. I still have my original PL totem t-shirt).
I was there with Rob, and we sang every song, note for note (probably pissing people off). I had one girl tap me on the shoulder and say I must have been some super fan, because I knew all the words to every song. I did. And I could sing on key, so hopefully I wasn't too annoying. :lol
Of course, being my first show, I had no idea about the "encore." As soon as they played Lucidity to close out the main set, I elbowed Rob and said lets go, they were finished. We got halfway down the hallway, and of course, they came back on stage, so like idiots, we ran back to our seats for Take Hold and Someone Else. It was a pretty magical experience for me as a fan since 1987 to finally see them live and what a great set. It was just a great production. I'll never forget it.
Of course, I was dumb and put my tourbook on the ground in front of me, and some idiot spilled beer all over it. I still took it home and dried it out the best I could. I ultimately (stupidly) cut out the pictures and put them on a huge black acid-free card stock thing to make a poster for myself. And then I did something equally stupid -- I tried to laminate my ticket stub to protect it, and I ended up ruining it (it turned all black, of course). Over time, I replaced the tour book (thankfully), but of course, my ticket was lost forever. :-( I learned my lesson, and didn't do that on the HITNF tour.
The experience, like many firsts, was almost a religious one. LOL. I ended up buying the video bootleg at the local flea market (along with some others) a few months later, and then set out on my huge collecting binge. The summer/fall of 1995 started it all, and kicked off a 10-year run for me doing all that. It was a magical time, and I was looking forward to seeing the band again as soon as possible. Thankfully, it would only be another two years...
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More great work Samsara.
PL is Queensryche 's Awake for me. Huge albums before them and dark, hard to get into follow ups. I struggled with both God a long time. Today, I wouldn't have bothered as I don't have the time.
The intro was just that, nothing special.
I Am I - didn't like it, don't love it now but can listen to it.
Damaged - great track. Loved it straight away and still do.
I loved the two ballads. As a newly qualified psychiatric nurse when PL came out, the subject matter was close to my heart and was well done.
I struggled with the title track at the time but eventually came to see it as the awesome track it is. A definite headphone song(and album as the last three had been)
Disconnected was and is shit.
Lady Jane is ok and I struggled with the lyrics. I always got a child abuse vibe from it but it certainly isn't a clear lyric.
MGM was an early favourite and still a great song.
SE - the piano sounds like shit, like a bad Casio, and the vocal never sat right in the track. Once I head the full band version I could see why. I prefer the piano version but would have preferred it recorded properly.
I loved the cover and had a giant poster of it on my den wall, but one of my pet hates is the one big sheet, foldout approach with cd covers. It gets mangled to bits and doesn't go back in the case very well 😖
I said the word struggle a lot in this piece and that was obviously the idea - it's meant to be an uncomfortable listen.
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It was the same thing for me with Promised Land. After I bought the Greatest Hits in 2000, I went out and bought all of the albums over the next few months. Promised Land was one of the last ones and I remember playing the cd in my discman in bed. When it ended, I remember thinking that was terrible. But something made me try it again and it clicked. The title track is just awesome and of course, so is Damaged. I can do without Lady Jane, but everything else is great.
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The main problem for me at the time was that the musical climate had changed. Grunge was in and I hated it. I was still a hair metal fan and life was still great. I was young and having a great time and had nothing in common with these depressives who couldn't play their instruments very well. I still wanted great guitar solos.
At the time PL came out I considered QR to be my favourite band but this would change now. DT took over, and QR died.
Most of my favourite bands went the same way to a darker sound. They would all be struggling with their demons, as QR were, and they weren't in a happy place either. And also they would chase the new sound for sales. I just didn't like it.
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What I found very unique about PL, and I mentioned it in the write up, was that in terms of sound, didn't set any or absorb much stylistic trend, apart from a heavier use of acoustic. Grunge was big in 1994. But it really didn't have any whiff of grunge to me. It had acoustic stuff, and that was in-style, but it wasn't really grunge-like. That would change a couple years later, but to my ears, PL was very "true" to what was going on with the band at that point.
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I'll be in the minority here, but I absolutely love PL, and did from the first listen. In fact, it's my favorite QR. Darker, brooding, weird, expansive...and not overtly flashy. The vibe really resonated with me, and still does. :millahhhh
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Great write-up on PL, Brian, and love the stories about your mom and the Wiz, etc. Anyway, PL is my all-time favorite album. In short, Brian's line about PL "not being an album you rock out to, it's an album you immerse yourself in" is so true. I couldn't agree more. It's such a work of art -- from the lyrics, to the sound effects, to the thought-provoking artwork. I have a PL totem pole poster framed and hanging above the staircase in my living room. That cover art is so powerful and makes the album much more special for me. The song "Someone Else" still gives me chills to this day.
Unfortunately, I never got to see this tour because I was still only 16 and hadn't yet started going to shows, but I've seen footage of the tour. It's still a shame that this album didn't get a proper live video release that it deserves. The video game was cool and I played it a lot at the time, but looking back I'd much rather have gotten a live video.
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Brian, WTF?? :lol
Holy Writeup, Batman!
I just looked at it. I'm gonna need a bit to get through it! Be back tonight! ;D
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I was working at a plastic extrusion shop on the edge of my home town when the album came out. One of my buddies was delivering pizza, and we had made an order from the place he worked at that evening. I remember him having a shit eating grin on his face when he came into the shop to bring us our food. He told me that I had to come out to the parking lot for a few minutes, so I snuck out with him. I Am I was about to be premiered on the local rock/metal station, and I made it out to his car just in time to hear it for the very first time.
I wasn't sure what to think, initially. It certainly wasn't what I had expected, and the rest of the album followed suit when I heard it all the way through a week or two later. But it didn't take long for me to get into the album. I've always been a moody bastard anyways, so the album was right up my alley.
On a side note, I know that many people don't like Disconnected. However, I think that they really nailed the feeling that they were trying to achieve with that song. Anyone that's ever been over-medicated on anti-depressants and emotionally blunted by the experience will probably have a good understanding of the song, and experience.
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Brian, WTF?? :lol
Holy Writeup, Batman!
I just looked at it. I'm gonna need a bit to get through it! Be back tonight! ;D
:rollin
Boom. I am pretty sure that nothing will be as lengthy as this PL one. I tried to nail down every detail I remembered, in order to paint as comprehensive picture of the album and time period within the band as possible. I think the album is very misunderstood. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but there's so much around it that helped shape what it became.
To be brutally honest, the fact they were able to create that record, in the circumstances they found themselves in, is incredible. I think some may argue that Empire should indeed have been the swan song. But the fact that Chris was able to rally everyone and make a record and continue speaks volumes -- both positively and negatively. As we get to HITNF, you'll see how that sort of led not only to that album's creation, but decisions made following it.
More in a week or so (I need to sit down and write it!)
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More in a week or so (I need to sit down and write it!)
That's good cuz I'm going to need a week to get through it! :lol
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What I found very unique about PL, and I mentioned it in the write up, was that in terms of sound, didn't set any or absorb much stylistic trend, apart from a heavier use of acoustic. Grunge was big in 1994. But it really didn't have any whiff of grunge to me. It had acoustic stuff, and that was in-style, but it wasn't really grunge-like. That would change a couple years later, but to my ears, PL was very "true" to what was going on with the band at that point.
Oh I agree that PL didn't sound grunge, but it has a dark and somewhat miserable tone to it which fit the grunge mood.
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I had no idea that when I saw them in Kzoo that it was the opening show.
Samsara, I also didn't know that you could top your previous album write ups and background information.
Thank you.
I was at the Kzoo show as well. Still one of the best concerts I've ever seen, and far and away the best QR show I've seen.
Samsara, great write up on this record. 1994 proved to be a defining year in music for me. By the time PL rolled around, I was a senior in high school and I remember hearing I Am I on the radio just before homecoming. I was living in Grand Rapids, MI at the time, and I remember they used to have a show on WKLQ on Sunday nights called New Music Breakout, where'd they play about 4-5 tracks from whatever albums were coming out in the coming weeks. I can remember hearing I Am I, Damaged, Bridge, and My Global Mind. It sounded like the logical follow up, in my opinion, to Empire. I was also listening to Marillion's Brave and DT's Awake pretty heavily at that point, so Promised Land fit right in that headspace for me.
I loved the record almost immediately. I know a lot of fans struggled with it, but I was on board with it basically from the moment I pressed play. As I said before, I'm sure having Brave and Awake on heavy rotation contributed to that, but I loved the details they put in. I did lament the diminished contributions of Michael Wilton, as he had written a lot of my favorite QR songs to that point, but as a drummer, I was excited to see Rockenfield sort of fill that space. I love all of the layers and ear candy on this record. In particular, I was impressed with the diversity of the instrumentation, most of it provided by DeGarmo.
Promised Land is probably my personal favorite of their records. I thought it was a pretty strong artistic statement from them and I thought it really showcased their versatility. I was hoping for more records like it. I think if they had continued down the path of balancing the elements they showcased on Empire and Promised Land, they would have been able to carve out a career similar to DT's, just with a larger audience. I wasn't ready for what actually came next, and from the sounds of it, neither was the band.
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One hell of a write up.
I didn't know of the personal strife going on at that time. Great insight. Thank you!
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I've been thinking about how I would comment, but I'll just do a little at a time. ;D
Obviously, I have never "gotten" Promised Land.
To better understand why it took four years from Empire to Promised Land, a brief “behind the scenes” look is required. Following the long Building Empires tour, the band went their separate ways for a while. During that time, Geoff Tate and Scott Rockenfield both got divorced, Eddie Jackson's video game stores that he had invested in went under (or were on the verge of going under), investments made by Michael Wilton in chocolate and coffee went south, and Wilton was also trying to recover from some dependency issues (he had an alter ego called “SPIKE” back in the day that reared its head when he had consumed too much alcohol – on the Promised Land tour, he had a statement that “SPIKE IS DEAD” on his guitar picks, if I remember right). Chris DeGarmo was the most stable of the group, but even he was starting to feel the strain of being out on the road and having a family grow up without him (Chris' dad left him, his brother, and his mom when Chris was young, and Chris didn't want to be an absent parent and husband). It was during this time that he earned his initial pilot's license, setting the stage for his future profession.
So, while Queensryche had its most successful period as a band, there were a lot of personal issues that the five guys were going through that affected their ability to get creative and write a follow-up to Empire. In fact, Tate went from stardom to living on his boat, with his ex-wife having been awarded all his royalty rights to all material through the Empire album (which was a tidy sum back then given how big album sales were and how popular Queensryche music was). Out of respect, I won't get into what led to the divorce, but trust me when I say -- don't feel bad for Tate on this one. It's rumored that DeGarmo helped keep a roof over Tate's head during this period, and ultimately, it was Chris that would help keep Queensryche together. Had he not, Empire might very well have been Queensryche's swan song.
Brian, thanks for the backstory here. This all makes sense. Especially when listening to the album. The album comes off as disjointed. You can really hear the calamity though. IMO, which is obviously a minority opinion, is that Promised Land has zero cohesion.
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I just listened to PL and I really enjoyed it. The mixing was great, and the music was fantastic.
So far my album rankings:
Empire
Promised Land
Rage for Order
O:M
The Warning
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Best Queensryche album ever. Easily. It was a tough nut to crack at first, because it was so different than what any of us were expecting, but once it hit me, it was like winning the musical lottery. This is still a top 25 all-time album in my eyes and is perfect from start to finish. Their undisputed masterpiece. :hat
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I am actually jealous of you guys that feel this way. I feel like I'm missing out. :lol
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I am actually jealous of you guys that feel this way. I feel like I'm missing out. :lol
I'm with you Tim . One track aside (One More Time - which I love) I've always been Disconnected with Promised Land ::) Good to see One More Time get a gong from Samsara as it rarely rates a mention .
Having said that I liked PL a bit more than I used to on my most recent listen. I certainly don't hate the album (it's the last Tate era album I would listen to these days) but it's not something I ever really want to play. I tried hard with PL and then HITNF (both have moments here and there) but after those two I basically threw in the towel and decided to just live in the past when it comes to the Tate era.
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Like many fans, when I first got PL, I was less than thrilled. I had already heard IAI on the radio, which was kinda meh to me (still is), which wasn't a good sign. But when I listened to the CD and Damaged quickly followed, I was like "OK, now we're going in the right direction" only to fail once again afterward. Not that the music was bad, but it was so mellow in comparison to what came before it. When I finished listening to the album for the first time, I remember thinking "wait - that's it? Where's the other heavy tunes?!?"
Ironically enough, the other song that grabbed me right from the getgo was Disconnected (sorry Lowdz!). I guess I can understand the hate for it, but I loved the song then, and still do today. One of my favorites from the album - I'd love to hear the original demo.
Over time, as I've gotten older, and as I've listened to the album more, I've come to appreciate it much more so than I originally did. I still don't think I'd put it above RfO/O:M/Empire, but it would follow right behind those 3.
The PL tour was also my first time seeing QR live. We had crappy seats way at the opposite end of Mecca Arena in Milwaukee, but it allowed for us to see the whole stage pretty well. Blew my mind seeing Screaming in Digital (well, half of it) - with the updated computer vocals and visuals, I finally could appreciate the song. And getting to hear half of my favorite QR song, Neue Regel, was a very unexpected surprise - again, why they couldn't play the whole thing was a bummer, but something's better than nothing. And I too echo the disappointment that there was never a proper video documenting this tour - would love it if there was one.
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I've always liked PL a lot, but I don't rate it as high as a lot of the diehards do. It's a great listen but nothing in comparison that everything that came before it.
I do also think that One More Time is one of the bands best songs.
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Ok, ranking time, as what comes after isn't worth ranking in the same list as it's so inferior
O:M
RFO
Empire
Warning
Promised Land
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Promised Land is one of the last few records I can directly remember buying... right down to the shop I bought it from that's no longer there on the main street I used to walk along to get to University buildings for lectures, and then the disappointment of it all...
At that time the only QR I really knew was Mindcrime and Empire (which were amazing) and I was, in my teenage lack of experience, expecting more of the same. I didn't get it. What I got was a waste of space intro, about 4 good songs - I Am I, Damaged, My Global Mind and One More Time - that weren't quite as good as anything on Mindcrime and only really about as good as the weaker stuff on Empire, too many slow songs and a song that was a load of noise that was as far from what I wanted to hear Geoff Tate sing as was possible to get...
Over time I have warmed up to the record somewhat. One More Time is now right up there amongst my all time favourites, Lady Jane has gained much more traction that it did initially and Someone Else? has become a much more significant tune to me with age.
But still, Out Of Mind, Bridge, Promised Land and Disconnected is not exactly my favourite run of songs. I appreciate Disconnected significantly more than I did on the first few listens and Promised Land is good if I'm in the mood for it, but Out Of Mind and Bridge remain fairly bland efforts to my ears. Overall I tend to give the album about 7/10 now, though if you'd asked me within the first few months of its release and I'd have given it 4/10.
The lack of Michael Wilton song writing credits on the album didn't escape my notice back then. At the time I just assumed a bit of writer's cramp had kicked in, but recent revelations suggest there was no lack of creativity on his part, it was just that Tate started refusing to work on the majority of the heavier material being written, which conveniently marginalised Wilton's contributions. It is the general lack of Wilton's heavier side that puts Promised Land in the basket along with HiTNF and Tribe that's labelled "good, but not quite the full QR".
One thing that I really will give Promised Land is that it sounds fantastic.
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I just listened to PL and I really enjoyed it. The mixing was great, and the music was fantastic.
So far my album rankings:
Empire
Promised Land
Rage for Order
O:M
The Warning
Switch Mindcrime and Rage For Order, and you have my ranking.
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Promised Land is one of the last few records I can directly remember buying...
I'm assuming that 'Dis-con-nected' opened side 2?
I bought the 'Last Action Hero' soundtrack because I was pretty sure 'Real World' would not be on the album (the Alice in Chains, Aerosmith, Tesla, and Kamen/Buckethead tracks were worth the purchase). PL album sales had to take a hit when potential buyers would look at the track listing, and not see 'Real World' included. The stark departure from their previous release and dark mood didn't help as well.
sidenote: just listened to 8vm and thinking of it during the 'Empire' thread. There's nothing wrong with toning things down a bit. Having really good hard driving music with melodies that work, a good 'flow' to an album, and having occasional parts the listener can sing along to, as well as relate to, isn't all bad.
My edited version of PL for the past 20+ years:
'Side One': 15 seconds of 9:28 / I Am I/ Damaged / Out Of Mind / Promised Land
'Side Two': Real World / Lady Jane / My Global Mind / One More Time / Someone Else?
After reading the great recap, I tried the extended Someone Else as the closer. I always thought it was 'extra' that they held aside, or was put together with pieces for the 'Hits' CD. It would have worked.
Oh, and 'Bridge' hit too close to home. I lived it. Don't need to be reminded. Gave it one listen. I also saw the 'Disconnected' vid for the first time last night. It's pretty darn good, and the song sounded better than I remembered.
And the concert at good ol' Wings Stadium (Center?): not as great as the 'Empire' performance. I wasn't familiar with some of the set list, not thrilled about some that I was familiar with or the arrangement. 'Real World' sticks out as an angry, almost punkish 'let's kinda screw this up' version. The stage extras throughout, including the PL bar scene, were kind of WTW? moments.
Or, maybe I was burned out and tired. My ex and I had just moved out of her house that we'd lived in for seven years, and into 'our' own home the week before. Unpacking after regular work and OTs, etc etc, plus she stayed home for this one.
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Thanks Samsara for the great write-up. A lot of info about the sessions and what went on in the QR-camp at the time that I didn’t know about.
Promised Land is a mixed bag for me. When I first heard it, I got the impression that they were trying two different things: a) continuing in a somewhat mainstream direction like Empire and b) getting more experimental or progressive like Rage For Order. But they didn’t embrace either direction wholeheartedly and thus the record is a mixture of both. Sadly it’s the more experimental songs that don’t work with me. I Am I is solid but nothing more, Disconnected has an interesting rhythm but just doesn’t work as a song and Promised Land is too long, too boring and too plodding for it to be a good song.
The more melodic songs aren’t bad but mostly not on the level of Empire. I really like Damaged and Lady Jane, my favorites. The two ballads after Damaged are again solid (I like Bridge better than Out Of Mind) but nothing special and sadly take the momentum out of the album’s flow.
In my opinion the album doesn’t sound cohesive and really doesn’t flow well, like TAC said it feels disjointed.
Interesting tidbit regarding the recording process of Someone Else?. I always thought that Tate didn’t sound that good only accompanied by piano. That his vocals were recorded for the full piece may explain that. He probably would have sung different for a piano ballad. And his voice is audibly cracking on some notes, but I’m not sure if it’s his degenerating singing abilities or done on purpose.
On the whole Tate delivers a good vocal performance but he doesn’t have the range anymore, or he just doesn’t use it.
All in all a decent enough record. I’ve spun it countless times but it doesn’t really click with me. I like it but don’t love it.
The cd booklet was a pain in the ass. In theory it was a nice idea to put in this fold out poster, but as someone else has said it was a chore to fold it up and put it back in. Mine’s now looking like my (non-existent) dog had its way with it.
Never really heard of the cd-rom.
On the Promised Land tour I saw QR for the first and only time. Great gig, great performance, but the venue was seriously overcrowded, there were a lot of people standing in the anteroom, hearing the concert but seeing nothing. And for my liking is was a little bit too much focused on PL and Mindcrime, with not much room for anything else.
I especially found the Mindcrime thing to be a bit strange. They played almost all of it, from the intro to The Mission in order, then leaving out Suite Sister, Needle, Requiem and Breaking The Silence and switch right to the rest of the songs, including the segue pieces (Waiting for 22, Empty Room) with Real World thrown in before playing Eyes Of A Stranger.
It left me (and others I know) longing for more and a bit disappointed. Either play the whole thing, or play some songs but not ľ of the whole record and leave out the center piece(s).
Ranking so far:
Operation Mindcrime
Empire
Rage For Order
a LaTorre fronted record
The Warning
another LaTorre record
a Tateryche record
Promised Land
Queensryche EP
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I had said that even though I liked Empire, I was concerned where they would go next. I was interested in a new QR album. But I did not like I Am I. A garbled mess if you ask me. And when I heard Bridge, forget it. Not interested. I was heavy into Dream Theater, the most exciting band I'd ever heard at the time, so I just kind of ignored this release. I ended up going to the show, and was blown away. I had seen then 5 times already but I didn't consider them a great live band. The promised land show was amazing, and I ended up buying the album right after the show. Unfortunately I was quite disappointed in it.
So for the record, the only song I really love is Damaged.
I like both One More Time and Someone Else. What Sam said about the SE vocals makes sense. To me, there was always something a little off.
As far as the title track, I think it's OK. There are times when I enjoy it, and there are times where I find it plodding. It's like a song that keeps reaching but never gets there. Probably the point of the song anyway, right?
After that, everything else is sub par Queensryche.
Oh, as far as Out Of Mind, I thought it was amazing live, especially outdoors on a hot July night, but it is so lame on the album.
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Promised Land is my favorite QR album, and it really comes down to the emotion and the dark heavy themes going on. That aspect really resonates with me.
When I first heard it, I really was like WTF. I had loved Mindcrime, their very early stuff and really enjoyed Empire so I was very knocked on my ass the first time I listened to PL, but slowly after each repeated listen. I just liked it more and more.
And songs like bridge, to someone who's father also walked away, mean more to me than you can imagine. Overall, Promised land is a hauntingly beautiful album.
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I think the shock of it not sounding like previous QR albums is the crux of the issue of PL's popularity.
I believe the album is amazing. Not surprised to see Damaged listed among everyone's favorites, as its the closest thing to what QR fans were familiar with to that point. Promised Land the song is among my all time tunes. The emotion that goes through me when I hear it can't be described. I also believe Disconnected is a good song, but then again, I'm a sucker for rock music incorporating the sax.
Second favorite QR album after Mindcrime.
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Glad you guys are diggin' the write up.
Yeah, one thing I'll give PL is that it sounds amazing. Out of all the Queensryche records. Empire and PL sound the best, which I guess isn't surprising, given the likely humongous budgets they had to work with, and the creative teams involved. That "warmer" sound we first talked about on Empire really suited the band, and Barton's mixes were phenomenal.
Re: One More Time -- those of you who shared my immediate love of that track...it certainly is an underrated gem in the catalog. The original lineup never played it again. And the Tateryche era of the band...if they did play it, it was on the ill-fated Cabaret tour (not sure). And we'll be skipping that tour discussion as mentioned above (as it wasn't done to support a particular record).
Also, keep in mind how short the tour for PL was. That will be discussed when we get to the starting point of HITNF...
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I think the shock of it not sounding like previous QR albums is the crux of the issue of PL's popularity.
Nah, from the beginning QR changed their sound and style (within limits) for each record. The Warning doesn't sound like the EP, Rage For Order doesn't sound like The Warning, OM not like Rage, Empire not like OM, so I don't think that was the problem.
People who knew only Empire at the time may be thrown off a bit, but we are all more than casual fans and I dare say it's not the shock of sounding different that's what causes people to not like it.
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Right. I agree with Kwyjibo. If I feel like a band "mails it in", that puts me off. Even though RFO was different, you could hear the band still stretching. I don't hear that with Promised Land. I hear retraction.
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Right. I agree with Kwyjibo. If I feel like a band "mails it in", that puts me off. Even though RFO was different, you could hear the band still stretching. I don't hear that with Promised Land. I hear retraction.
I think they looked inward, which isnt a bad thing, per se. The band stretched their sound on the next record, which had a big backlash. 😉 but we'll get to that...
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Not sure I'd use the word "stretch", but well.... we'll get there. I actually have positive things to say about HITNF.
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I have two positive things to say about HITNF. I like exactly two songs on that disc.
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their Best record and peak.
No idea, but I always wondered if DeGarmo could write a full album/concept album again with the band, if something similar could have come from it.
Lady Jane :tup
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Nice writeup, Samsara! :tup I had never heard of Eddie and Michael's business investments or Michael's drinking before. I knew about Chris's childhood and the meaning behind Bridge, but I never thought about the way it affected his own parenthood, so his decision to quit the band and leave touring behind a few years later makes even more sense now in that light - he wanted to be there for his family, because his father never was there for him.
I haven't posted in this thread earlier, because I didn't notice it until you guys were at RFO already due to having been away for a while, and I didn't want to derail the thread by going back to the first releases. Anyway, I've been catching up lately and it's been interesting to read everyone's thoughts and memories of each release.
PL is my favorite QR album, though Rage comes close. I feel it's their most timeless release, because - as mentioned in this thread - it was a departure from the earlier 80s metal sound, yet not grunge-y like its successor. The personal themes are also easy to relate to, and One More Time and Someone Else? in particular speak to me. For some reason I seem to have a soft spot for introspective and dark albums like this, Awake by DT and Unia by Sonata Arctica that have been made in the wake of a big breakthrough and as a kind of reaction to it.
The production of PL is pristine just like on Empire, but I prefer the sound of PL by a smidgen, because there's more sonic experimentation going on. It's hard to name any individual favorite songs, as the whole album is so even and the atmosphere is so consistent, though My Global Mind is the odd one out. However, I particularly love Damaged, Out of Mind, Bridge, the title-track and Someone Else?, and Disconnected is cool as hell IMO.
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Promised Land... Like many, I wasn't ready for this curve ball and didn't get it when it broke.
My fandom led me to buy the Last Action Hero soundtrack. This should have been a sign that things were different in the Queensryche camp, as this song was something truly different for them in many ways. And yet...it wasn't THAT big a departure from Empire either. But it was...as I said, different. I didn't love it, but didn't hate it either. And the soundtrack, being kind of hit and miss across the board, as soundtracks often are, was still a great buy, not only for the cool Queensryche rarity, but also for a MASSIVE Megadeth song.
Anyhow, we of course got PL not too long after. As I listened to the album, I Am I was one I immediately liked, odd as it was. Then came the second half of the one-two punch with Damaged. So far, so good. But from there, nothing really grabbed me at first. Like someone else said above, I was left at the end of the album saying, "That's it? Where's the hard stuff? It all but disappeared after Damaged. But I didn't abandon the album either, even though it didn't immediately click. Like so many others, as I listened, the emotional power and atmosphere just clicked, and it wasn't long before I appreciated every single song and this became my favorite Queensryche album. This is definitely an album where the payoff for patience was huge for me. The more I listened, the more I learned to appreciate it.
I was at the much-bootlegged San Jose show. All I can say is, what a spectacle it was. It not only helped me appreciate the songs on Promised Land, but it again cemented the Queenryche could put on a live show like no other. ...at least, for awhile. This tour following on Building Empires really took them over the top as a live act. The only issue was Tate's voice at that show. I could not hear him at all at the outset of the show for the first half of I Am I. Then when you finally could hear him, his voice sounded off. I long had a theory that his mic wasn't on or was very low in the mix at the beginning of the show and he strained his voice pushing to try to hear himself. But I've since been informed that sources from the radio broadcast show that he could be heard at the beginning of the show, so that must not have been it. Hard to say. But he just didn't sound right. But still, it was a great show. Some of the highlights:
-The opening with Billy Joel Geoff in a suit, with the reporters flying around him, and then taking the suit at the end of I Am I was SO cool.
-Mini-Mindcrime suite was really cool. The fanbase wasn't burned out on it yet and were still hungry for it. This was a great way to weave it into the presentation without taking away from PL and give enough of the Mindcrime story to have it feel coherent.
-PL the song was EPIC. The stage setup for it really enhanced the song and the overall vibe.
-The semi-full-band version of Someone Else? is the best of the three.
I first found a single CD partial show at a local store that sold "imports," some of which were actually imports, and others were silver disc bootlegs. I was thrilled to not only have a recording of the tour, but even moreso that it was a show I attended. I don't remember if it was culled together from the radio broadcast or was an audience recording, but I think it was the latter. I do remember the sound quality not being up to par. Later, I found two different version of the entire show that are much better quality.
Anyhow, this album...this tour...it came at a good time for a lot of people. Yeah, the band's popularity fell off quite a bit. But for a lot of the hardcores, the dark moodiness of this album was welcome as many had the realization that this was a different kind of album...one to just listen to and let wash over you. As time has passed, I have inched Empire just up above it. That isn't because I like it any less. But Empire is just so universally accessible that I can listen to it anytime, whereas Promised Land, despite its complex textures, isn't an album I can just put on for any reason anymore--at least, not as often as Empire. But still, amazing album.
And, yeah, I had the CD Rom as well. I had fun exploring the Big Log disk. The game itself was okay, but I grew tired of it before finding all the totems. Never did bother finding them all. Unlike Myst, some of the worlds just seemed to lack cohesion and had you stumble upon the totems just by combination of luck and clicking on every last thing there rather than actually solving a puzzle. I remember finding Eddie's, and I know I found 1 or two others, but that's it. Scott's was the one that really gave me fits because I felt like it was hiding right out in plain sight and that I had tried everything and still couldn't find it. The good thing for me was that the files were TOO organized on the disk, so I was easily able to find the video file for Two Mile High and just watch it even though I hadn't unlocked it by completing the game. :lol
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In my opinion the album doesn’t sound cohesive and really doesn’t flow well, like TAC said it feels disjointed.
I don't get this at all. I think it is far more cohesive than anything else they have done, Mindcrime included. And it is certainly their most diverse album. You get a little bit of everything, with the sounds and styles not staying the same from song to song. Listen to Damaged, Promised Land and Someone Else?, and then find me another record by the band with three full length songs that different from one another.
And the flow is immaculate. It really does take you on a journey.
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I remember after the high of Empire I did feel a little let down with this album. But over time it grows on me and usually good albums are growers.
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I actually liked Promised Land even more when it got reissued in 2003. I think Real World is a fantastic song and fits in perfectly with the album. I think it should have been on the album right from the beginning.
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In my opinion the album doesn’t sound cohesive and really doesn’t flow well, like TAC said it feels disjointed.
I don't get this at all. I think it is far more cohesive than anything else they have done, Mindcrime included. And it is certainly their most diverse album. You get a little bit of everything, with the sounds and styles not staying the same from song to song. Listen to Damaged, Promised Land and Someone Else?, and then find me another record by the band with three full length songs that different from one another.
And the flow is immaculate. It really does take you on a journey.
Well the whole thing is lost on me, save for a couple tunes. I don't get it. At. All.
Probably a "me" thing.
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After having listened through on the train today, I think the most under-rated part of the album is the incredibly tasty fretless bass playing throughout. Tasteful, interesting, and used to it's maximum effect, but without being obvious or obtrusive. Makes me want to give fretless another try.
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My first exposure to Promised Land was a radio show where the album was getting a debut. King Biscuit or something. Anyway, I taped the show off the radio and listed several times. One thing stressed by the band during the show was a suggesting that the album was made to be listened to on headphones.
When I got the full album on cd, I liked it OK, but it took seeing them live that tour for it to really click. That turned me into a big fan of the album (and the opening band, Type O Negative
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I apologize if I missed this being mentioned amongst the various reviews that were like reading short stories :lol, but some of the unique vocal effects on this album are totally awesome.
Examples:
-"The ever present IT" part of I Am I where the "it" echo comes in a few seconds later is actually the first word of the next line.
-The "...with no direction for re-assembly" line in Damaged. The repeating of the word "direction" is a very cool effect.
-Pretty much everything about the vocals in Disconnected.
-One of the favorite moments of this album for me and my brother was always in My Global Mind - "Welcome to the information nettttttttttttttt-(main guitar lead comes back in)---WORK!" So awesome.
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My first exposure to Promised Land was a radio show where the album was getting a debut. King Biscuit or something. Anyway, I taped the show off the radio and listed several times. One thing stressed by the band during the show was a suggesting that the album was made to be listened to on headphones.
When I got the full album on cd, I liked it OK, but it took seeing them live that tour for it to really click. That turned me into a big fan of the album (and the opening band, Type O Negative
I believe the radio show was Bob Coburn's Rockline. He played every song but the title track. I recall being completely underwhelmed, as not a single song jumped out and grabbed me. Over time I came to appreciate Promised Land but I still don't rate it anywhere close to the albums that preceded it.
Great write-up, Brian!
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Rockline was the absolute greatest show in the history of radio.
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I was able to catch Rockline in its last few years, such a good show.
Another great write up Samsara. :tup
Promised Land is where I'm less familiar with Queensryche. I heard the album once and thought it was kinda weird without anything to latch on to. Listening to it again and learning about the background has helped my appreciation a ton. I can definitely relate to those who weren't sure what to think at first but love it now. I'm not in the "love it" stage yet, but I could see myself getting there. The atmosphere on this album is incredible, something QR were always good at but they kick it up a notch here. I really dig the acoustic stuff, it's more atmospheric and less commercial than Silent Lucidity, even if it was written in the same vein. Chris DeGarmo lays down some really tasteful solos too.
I Am I was a horrible choice for a lead single and even opening track. It's so disjointed and out there, I can't see how anyone would listen to that and be compelled to buy the album. Feels more like a studio experiment than a fully fleshed out song. Luckily, the rest of the music combine studio effects and soundscapes with decent songwriting.
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I had given up on QR after the IMO disappointing Empire.
Actually, I should briefly talk about that album first, because I missed it. I actually really liked the first single Empire...but on hearing the album JCW and ARN just hit me like nails on a chalkboard. I really hate those songs to this very day. Ruins what is otherwise a pretty cool album. Even Silent Lucidity is a very cool ballad with a bit of a creepy vibe to it. I dont consider that ballad to be anywhere close to the almost Bieber level of sell out that JCW and ARN are.
The album is OK, but far too radio friendly for my tastes, and a big letdown after RFO and OMC.
PL is another story. From the moment I first heard I Am I, I really felt like the weird dark QR that I had come to know and love was back. It started my theory that Empire was just grabbing a paycheck so they could afford to make the album they *actually* wanted to make....but that's me being bitter about those terrible radio singles.
I love every note of PL from start to finish, and I have nicknamed it "Rage For Order....with a budget". Brilliantly weird, dark, creepy, album. Only Damaged sounds mildly like a single, but what a great single. I;m happy that they didnt release it first, and instead decided to make a "statement" with I Am I. "If you were expecting Empire part 2......bite me!" I just love the attitude and approach of the entire album. Maybe my #2 all time QR album. (You cant out do the original RFO, even if this is better produced)
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I stumbled across this tonight while screwing around on youtube. Not sure what to think about the Stone's cover, but they did it well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klQ42M5b4h8
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In my opinion the album doesn’t sound cohesive and really doesn’t flow well, like TAC said it feels disjointed.
I don't get this at all. I think it is far more cohesive than anything else they have done, Mindcrime included. And it is certainly their most diverse album. You get a little bit of everything, with the sounds and styles not staying the same from song to song. Listen to Damaged, Promised Land and Someone Else?, and then find me another record by the band with three full length songs that different from one another.
And the flow is immaculate. It really does take you on a journey.
You said it yourself in the bolded part. For some people this works, for me it doesn't. Not saying that you can't have diversity and still being cohesive, but it's not Promised Land for me. The mood is perfect but the flow is clumsy and a couple of songs don't work for me.
But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is a bad album, in fact it's a good one, I just don't see it as the best that QR has ever done, I rank it far behind.
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In my opinion the album doesn’t sound cohesive and really doesn’t flow well, like TAC said it feels disjointed.
I don't get this at all. I think it is far more cohesive than anything else they have done, Mindcrime included. And it is certainly their most diverse album. You get a little bit of everything, with the sounds and styles not staying the same from song to song. Listen to Damaged, Promised Land and Someone Else?, and then find me another record by the band with three full length songs that different from one another.
And the flow is immaculate. It really does take you on a journey.
You said it yourself in the bolded part. For some people this works, for me it doesn't. Not saying that you can't have diversity and still being cohesive, but it's not Promised Land for me. The mood is perfect but the flow is clumsy and a couple of songs don't work for me.
But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is a bad album, in fact it's a good one, I just don't see it as the best that QR has ever done, I rank it far behind.
This is an interesting discussion. I think Promised Land has elements of cohesiveness, but it's certainly not cohesive like Mindcrime (nor would I expect it to be). I think what hurts PL in regard to cohesiveness is that it begins by following a narrative, but then that narrative gets interrupted a bit, depending on your point of view. If you look at the track list trying to follow it as a character, there are some spots where it can be argued it deviates a bit (Out of Mind, Lady Jane, My Global Mind). I can make a pretty good argument that it does NOT deviate (which is how I personally look at it -- that it does not, and it flows really well), but I can totally see, at least lyrically, how it might not for some people.
Musically, I don't put it on the seamless level of Fates Warning's A Pleasant Shade of Gray (that record, to my ear, is very similar in vibe to Promised Land), but I think the music and lyrics work together very well.
So, in short, I can totally see the argument that PL lacks a cohesiveness, but I think it depends on how you're interpreting the narrative of the album.
I stumbled across this tonight while screwing around on youtube. Not sure what to think about the Stone's cover, but they did it well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klQ42M5b4h8
Yup, I mentioned that in the write-up. I quite enjoyed it when I first heard it. That video upload is from Setzer. He's the latest in a long line of folks that were bit with the QR live show collecting bug. He does a nice job with his YouTube channel.
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This thread inspired me to relisten to the good old Queensryche albums for the first time in several years.
In fact, I think I might see this thread as a perfect opportunity to FINALLY pay attention to the albums after Promised land - aside from the self-titled one, I've hardly ever listened to those.
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This thread inspired me to relisten to the good old Queensryche albums for the first time in several years.
I've been doing the same thing - despite being my favorite band for a period of time, I completely shelved a lot of these older records in 2012, and recently shelved the two most recent albums from the band. For whatever reasons, I just didn't feel like listening to them, and haven't had any interest in the new albums for a while.
This thread has me going back and really listening to the albums again and reminding me of how much I loved them. I broke out Promised Land the other day and have immersed myself it in lately. Yesterday, I ran through the next few albums coming up, which I hadn't heard in years.
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This thread inspired me to relisten to the good old Queensryche albums for the first time in several years.
In fact, I think I might see this thread as a perfect opportunity to FINALLY pay attention to the albums after Promised land - aside from the self-titled one, I've hardly ever listened to those.
I will have little to contribute for much of it also, but do t think I will bother to register to those albums. There is little there of any interest to me.
I am looking forward to Brian's write ups though :biggrin: expecting some juicy stuff in the next one...
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Hey, I don't want people to think I have some sort of huge A-HA moment regarding Queensryche lined up. I can understand why people may think that, but I really don't. DeGarmo's initial departure, and his next one in the midst of recording Tribe have both been speculated for years, and likely conclusions drawn after all that speculation and facts from the lawsuit. I'll put it all together, for sure. But there's no smoking gun.
Fact is, Chris has never publicly spoken on why he left. So, I'll paint the picture, which I personally believe to be pretty accurate, but it's nothing that we (at least on my old forum back in the day) haven't covered before.
I don't want to shoot the thread in the foot, but I also don't want people believing there is something more waiting to be revealed. There's not (at least on Chris). I may have some pretty cool stuff people don't know to share about Mindcrime II, and some other things following that, however. ;)
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CD's departure was a huge let down for me. He was the backbone of their sound. However, I'm glad that Wilton stayed and is still there. The last 2 albums have renewed my interest as a longtime fan.
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I'm one of the very few that loves Q2K, so looking forward to that one, although I'm probably on vacation when it is discussed.
For all those that never cared about the Tateryche records, there's some good stuff, although it's buried in a lot of mediocrity. If you put the best songs of that period on one disc you get a really good QR record imo.
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CD's departure was a huge let down for me. He was the backbone of their sound. However, I'm glad that Wilton stayed and is still there. The last 2 albums have renewed my interest as a longtime fan.
This!
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For all those that never cared about the Tateryche records, there's some good stuff, although it's buried in a lot of mediocrity. If you put the best songs of that period on one disc you get a really good QR record imo.
I agree. But there is just so much wasted potential there, because there are quite a few songs that are almost really good, but for subpar singing by Tate, or subpar lyrics by Tate, or...you get the picture. American Soldier, for example, would be right up there with their best for me if Tate's "singing" didn't kill it.
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For all those that never cared about the Tateryche records, there's some good stuff, although it's buried in a lot of mediocrity. If you put the best songs of that period on one disc you get a really good QR record imo.
I agree. But there is just so much wasted potential there, because there are quite a few songs that are almost really good, but for subpar singing by Tate, or subpar lyrics by Tate, or...you get the picture. American Soldier, for example, would be right up there with their best for me if Tate's "singing" didn't kill it.
I've always steered clear of AS, but I'm very interested in hearing the thoughts of you folks that have taken enough interest in it to have a strong opinion, either way. I may delve into the record depending on what you guys have to say about it when the time comes.
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Someone made me a copy of AS and I liked it and found it a very focused album. But then Samsara ruined it for me.
How's that for a tease! :lol
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Promised Land was the last "Great" record by the band consisting of material I could enjoy all the way through without skipping a song. I loved the album right away upon release and still do. The Promised Land tour has the distinction of being the greatest concert I have ever attended (out of over 300) Front row at Camden Pavilion in NJ. For anyone who hasn't had the opportunity to view that tour I would seek out a show on you tube, you might get the whole album a little better after watching the tour footage.
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Someone made me a copy of AS and I liked it and found it a very focused album. But then Samsara ruined it for me.
How's that for a tease! :lol
We'll get there! A lot to unpack with that record. But many more before it!
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I might as well just quote some of the comments already, as they capture a lot of what I feel:
Oh I agree that PL didn't sound grunge, but it has a dark and somewhat miserable tone to it which fit the grunge mood.
I've always liked PL a lot, but I don't rate it as high as a lot of the diehards do. It's a great listen but nothing in comparison that everything the two that came before it.
And it is certainly their most diverse album. You get a little bit of everything, with the sounds and styles not staying the same from song to song.
In fact, I think I might see this thread as a perfect opportunity to FINALLY pay attention to the albums after Promised land - aside from the self-titled one both LaTorre albums, I've hardly ever listened to those.
CD's departure was a huge let down for me. He was the backbone of their sound. However, I'm glad that Wilton stayed and is still there. The last 2 albums have renewed my interest as a longtime fan.
Promised Land was the last "Great" record by the band consisting of material I could enjoy all the way through without skipping a song.
My sentiments exactly
I loved I Am I and Damaged right out of the gate. Really liked most of everything else... I guess at the time I really didn't know WHAT to expect from QR. So, I just listened to (and enjoyed) the album for itself - nothing more, nothing less. Some songs improved with age and repeated listens, but (imo) there aren't any clunkers here.
Those claiming it's the "best"... that's a bold statement. I can understand it being one's favorite, but surely you can put your own tastes and subjectivity aside to recognize that O:M and Empire are "better" albums than this?
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Not Empire for me. It grew on me. When it first came out, I hated it. Now it's mid-tier. Probably a tie with Warning.
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I'm not much of a QR guy anymore so I haven't checked in here before, but that was a fine writeup for PL. Didn't know any of the behind scenes stuff. I have a road trip coming up next month so maybe I'll blast through their dicog over a couple of days. It'd be interesting to do that with these writeups on hand.
In any case, looks like I'm the oddball in that I thought this was a very good album and a very good comeback from the disappointing Empire. It's not that I hated Empire or anything, I loved one or two songs, but I didn't hear anything special in it. Seemed fairly predictable and commercial, honestly. Which is why I thought the completely different direction of PL was a huge improvement. Nothing at all predictable here. Whereas my favorite QR album took years to grown me, and I really hated it at first, this one clicked right away. I was glad to hear them back to playing music I liked.
And was this the tour with STP? If so, man, that was a weird one for me.
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And was this the tour with STP? If so, man, that was a weird one for me.
The two times that I seen them on this tour was with Type O Negative.
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I'm pretty sure that they didn't have a support act in Germany, or it was so bad that my mind erased every memory of it.
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I'm not much of a QR guy anymore so I haven't checked in here before, but that was a fine writeup for PL. Didn't know any of the behind scenes stuff. I have a road trip coming up next month so maybe I'll blast through their dicog over a couple of days. It'd be interesting to do that with these writeups on hand.
In any case, looks like I'm the oddball in that I thought this was a very good album and a very good comeback from the disappointing Empire. It's not that I hated Empire or anything, I loved one or two songs, but I didn't hear anything special in it. Seemed fairly predictable and commercial, honestly. Which is why I thought the completely different direction of PL was a huge improvement. Nothing at all predictable here. Whereas my favorite QR album took years to grown me, and I really hated it at first, this one clicked right away. I was glad to hear them back to playing music I liked.
And was this the tour with STP? If so, man, that was a weird one for me.
Pretty much my exact sentiments. I absolutely loved I am I, Damaged, My global mind, Lady Jane, Someone Else?. All top notch songs for me. It's after this the big nosedive for the band began in my opinion.
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I'm not much of a QR guy anymore so I haven't checked in here before, but that was a fine writeup for PL. Didn't know any of the behind scenes stuff. I have a road trip coming up next month so maybe I'll blast through their dicog over a couple of days. It'd be interesting to do that with these writeups on hand.
In any case, looks like I'm the oddball in that I thought this was a very good album and a very good comeback from the disappointing Empire. It's not that I hated Empire or anything, I loved one or two songs, but I didn't hear anything special in it. Seemed fairly predictable and commercial, honestly. Which is why I thought the completely different direction of PL was a huge improvement. Nothing at all predictable here. Whereas my favorite QR album took years to grown me, and I really hated it at first, this one clicked right away. I was glad to hear them back to playing music I liked.
Thanks, El Barto. Appreciate it.
And was this the tour with STP? If so, man, that was a weird one for me.
As far as I know, QR never toured with STP. On Empire, they had Warrior Soul and Lynch Mob (along with a couple of others depending on the leg) and on PL, at least in the states, it was Type O Negative.
I probably should have mentioned Type O in the touring portion of the PL write-up. I'm not a big fan, so to be honest, it didn't even cross my mind.
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I stumbled across this tonight while screwing around on youtube. Not sure what to think about the Stone's cover, but they did it well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klQ42M5b4h8
Yup, I mentioned that in the write-up. I quite enjoyed it when I first heard it. That video upload is from Setzer. He's the latest in a long line of folks that were bit with the QR live show collecting bug. He does a nice job with his YouTube channel.
I just re-watched that yesterday, and only NOW do I realise that when Geoff is asked about when their "CD-ROM is dropping" (at 3:18), they're referring to the Promised Land CD-ROM game. So apparently that was slated for April '95? Or perhaps not, since Geoff also says he doesn't know anything :huh:
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I could have sworn I saw STP and QR as a package deal at Starplex, but I can't find any record of it. I'm pretty sure I saw this tour, but there's no way I would have sat through TO-, and I do recall a specific incident between bands. As I recall they were shooting projections on the plexy frame around Rockenfield's kit, or was that a different tour?
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I could have sworn I saw STP and QR as a package deal at Starplex, but I can't find any record of it. I'm pretty sure I saw this tour, but there's no way I would have sat through TO-, and I do recall a specific incident between bands. As I recall they were shooting projections on the plexy frame around Rockenfield's kit, or was that a different tour?
I don't recall any of that. AFAIK, Type O opened the PL gigs, and on HITNF they had local openers. Perhaps the package deal you are referring to is a local ticket package for that particular venue? Buy one, get the other show half off or something?
I could be mistaken, but I don't ever recall STP opening or playing with Queensryche (at least through the original lineup, but to the best of my knowledge, all the way through to the present).
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I'm not much of a QR guy anymore so I haven't checked in here before, but that was a fine writeup for PL. Didn't know any of the behind scenes stuff. I have a road trip coming up next month so maybe I'll blast through their dicog over a couple of days. It'd be interesting to do that with these writeups on hand.
In any case, looks like I'm the oddball in that I thought this was a very good album and a very good comeback from the disappointing Empire. It's not that I hated Empire or anything, I loved one or two songs, but I didn't hear anything special in it. Seemed fairly predictable and commercial, honestly. Which is why I thought the completely different direction of PL was a huge improvement. Nothing at all predictable here. Whereas my favorite QR album took years to grown me, and I really hated it at first, this one clicked right away. I was glad to hear them back to playing music I liked.
And was this the tour with STP? If so, man, that was a weird one for me.
Pretty much my exact sentiments. I absolutely loved I am I, Damaged, My global mind, Lady Jane, Someone Else?. All top notch songs for me. It's after this the big nosedive for the band began in my opinion.
Yeah, me too. Except, I liked Empire. It was a little too commercialized, but still had a lot of good stuff. The Thin Line, Jet City Woman, Della Brown, Empire, Silent Lucidity, Anybody Listening. Even though PL took a while to grow on me, I agree that it is a much improved departure from Empire.
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Not the biggest fan of this album, but I like reading about it. It's a very interesting record because it's not a total suckage, even if you don't personally like it you feel there's something deep about it, and so it's nice to read memories of it... I guess those who like the album are lucky to happen to not be among those who've felt let down by it! as it goes for any divisive album... for example I'm just happy that I happened to completely love The Astonishing.
Slightly off topic, in recent years I remember a renewed interest for Queensryche and I came up with a compilation for the "early years", the debut through Promised Land; it's something I remember hearing it quite often some years ago, going to and back from work, and as I always do, I organize my compilations as setlists, to have more fun in pretending to be at a concert.
I know it's basically just a bit more than an excuse to hear most of Mindcrime, but would you have fun at a concert paced like this?
I Remember Now
Anarchy-.X
Revolution Calling
Damaged
Walk in the Shadows
Speak
En Force
The Mission
The Whisper
Another Rainy Night (Without You)
Suite Sister Mary
Silent Lucidity
Bridge
The Needle Lies
Jet City Woman
Breaking the Silence
The Warning
I Don't Believe in Love
Queen of the Reich
=================
Best I Can
The Killing Words
Empire
It was meant to cover 90-95 minutes of a round trip, so with all the pauses in between songs, it would amount I guess to a 2 hour-ish concert.
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Yeah a little Mindcrime heavy, but not bad. Nice list. I like it.
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Not nearly enough Promised Land (2 songs??) in that set list for me to give it a thumbs up. :P
I do like seeing The Whisper and The Killing Words in there, however. :hat
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There's a half dozen I'd replace.....just as you would adjust the six replacements (but ya GOTTA finish the concert proper with 'Eyes Of A Stranger' ;)) but YOU like it, enjoy it, and that's what matters most.
I made up one after PL was released, somewhat for myself, but also with my then wife in mind when we'd do road trips.
Switching gears: I think back to when 'Real World' was released, and how all the tempo changes and guitars and orchestra and vocals and words 'reached' me. And, once again, Michael Kamen was on board. He came to my attention due to his orchestral arrangement on Queen's 'Who Wants To Live Forever'. A few years later, credits on the O:M LP, and then 'Silent Lucidity'.
This added to the anticipation I had for PL (along with the four year wait). I was disappointed not to see him listed in the credits (though 'Lady Jane' seems like somewhat of an homage to his past association with the band). I think back to as to the lack of anything radio-friendly. I didn't expect 'The Empire Strikes Back....' but this release was awfully dark. Not having any pix of the band, while you have one of head with a nail in it speaks volumes in that regards. Yet, 90% of the album still appeals to me to this day, so it wasn't all bad.
(just saw the 'Two Mile High' cdrom vid on youtube a few weeks back. Fun little track. And they still looked like they were having fun).
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Not nearly enough Promised Land (2 songs??) in that set list for me to give it a thumbs up. :P
It's at least one song too many.
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Love Promised Land, nearly my favorite right behind Mindcrime. I was still exploring and discovering Queensr˙che at the time I bought the album in the early 2000's. I had purchased all of the previous records beforehand, and I left Promised Land near the end of my buying the collection as the songs on the greatest hits record from PL didn't interest me. They left me feeling the same way the ones from HITNF did, but I had read that PL was a great artistic statement that needed to be experienced in full, so I bought the album anyway to give it a shot.
The first few songs upon first listen didn't impress me, and it must have been a long day at school and work because I was nearly asleep by the end of the first half. But those booming tones of the intro to the title track woke me up in a hurry, and my attention was held for the rest of the record (aside from the dreadful Disconnected which I still strongly despise). The second half of the album is the stronger of the two for me, and Someone Else? just might be my favorite Queensr˙che song. Such a great closer, and I'm probably in the minority in preferring the piano version over the full band. After hearing the second half of the album that day, I came to appreciate the first half much better.
Top three songs for me from this album would probably be Someone Else?, Promised Land, and My Global Mind, though One More Time could make it here on the right day too.
It's a shame I didn't join the thread here until now. The last Queensr˙che record in their discography I bought and listened to was HITNF (unless Live Evolution is discussed eventually too). I've probably listened to Now Frontier only three times since I got it around 15 years ago, and I would likely rate it that same number on a scale of ten. Awful record, but that's for another discussion...
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Such a great closer, and I'm probably in the minority in preferring the piano version over the full band
I love aspects of the full band version, but I prefer the piano version... aside from anything the lyrics are slightly different on the full band version and aren't as good.
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Such a great closer, and I'm probably in the minority in preferring the piano version over the full band
I love aspects of the full band version, but I prefer the piano version... aside from anything the lyrics are slightly different on the full band version and aren't as good.
I prefer the piano version but would have preferred a proper version with vocals recorded for the piano version and a better piano sound. The full band version just sounds wrong, but maybe if I'd hear that version first it wouldn't be so bad.
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Not nearly enough Promised Land (2 songs??) in that set list for me to give it a thumbs up. :P
It's at least one song too many.
Timmy, say it isn't so! :biggrin:
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Such a great closer, and I'm probably in the minority in preferring the piano version over the full band
I love aspects of the full band version, but I prefer the piano version... aside from anything the lyrics are slightly different on the full band version and aren't as good.
I prefer the piano version but would have preferred a proper version with vocals recorded for the piano version and a better piano sound. The full band version just sounds wrong, but maybe if I'd hear that version first it wouldn't be so bad.
TBH, I personally prefer the live hybrid they did on the tour. It had just enough guitar to heighten the drama and make the song more interesting musically. The piano version...I just can't unhear Tate's vocals being too...harsh for the song. And the full band version tries to hard to be epic.
I really think they got it "right" with the live version.
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Those claiming it's the "best"... that's a bold statement. I can understand it being one's favorite, but surely you can put your own tastes and subjectivity aside to recognize that O:M and Empire are "better" albums than this?
Bold, perhaps. But true nonetheless. Although Mindcrime will probably win any poll for "favorite," I think you'll find, especially among the hardcore fanbase that there are a LOT of folks that will rank Promised Land as the best/favorite album, and for good reason. That doesn't mean Mindcrime isn't amazing or that it isn't a classic. But so is Promised Land. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, as good as Mindcrime is, it lacks both the polish and maturity of the two albums that came after. And Promised Land excels because it is deeply introspective and deep without coming across as sanctimonious or preachy, and I think bands could manage to successfully pull that off are a minority. Queensryche did it so well on that album that I think makes it undeniably a frontrunner for "best" Queensryche album, and I know I am not nearly alone in that opinion.
...and Someone Else? just might be my favorite Queensr˙che song. Such a great closer, and I'm probably in the minority in preferring the piano version over the full band.
As I mentioned above, if I had to pick a favorite, I would go with the live version, which is a nice blend of the two. I can see why someone would prefer the stripped down piano version. It's solid. For me personally, I like it, but it is a bit TOO stripped down and simplified to carry it up near "favorite" status. But, again, for me, the simple addition of Wilton's guitar accents on the live version adds to much texture and emotion. The full band version is great too, but it has a different vibe. Again, I can see why one would simply prefer the different vibe and mood of the album version, even if I might rank that as the lowest of the three.
EDIT: Samsara and I are agreeing WAY too much. We need some controversy in this thread. Bring on HITNF!!! :lol
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EDIT: Samsara and I are agreeing WAY too much. We need some controversy in this thread. Bring on HITNF!!! :lol
Yeah. This is NOT good. We're supposed to disagree more for sure. I think I'm mellowing in my old age or something. :lol
re: Mindcrime v. Promised Land
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Well, here you go, bosk. We disagree. I think Mindcrime was the ultimate pinnacle of the band from a full band creative standpoint. From a purely sonic standpoint, Empire and PL are better SOUNDING records. I think the warmer tones and Jimbo's mixing really accentuated the depths of Queensryche. But I also think Empire and PL (and DeGarmo mentioned this on the interview he and Tate did on the Empire DVD-A) started to strip the band's songwriting down to make it simpler. THAT is why I don't think Promised Land or Empire lives up to Mindcrime. Mindcrime was full-on Queensryche with everyone at the height of their creativity to really accentuate the concept. Pure brilliance.
They chose a harsher, colder tone for Mindcrime, and that made total sense (and Jimbo was part of that production team). But while I also think it was brilliant to go warmer, I think what you label as "maturity" in terms of songwriting, to me, was them streamlining and becoming simpler. And while it is "mature" to a degree, I also think getting simpler took away a little from what made them so powerful as a metal band.
Mindcrime is probably the last METAL record, and when they went hard rock, it made sense to warm up the tone and get a little simpler...but I'd argue they lost more than they gained, creatively because of that. Again, just my off-the-cuff thoughts here. Empire and PL are incredible...but because they are "simpler," I don't think they rise to the brilliance of Mindcrime, despite SOUNDING better, if that makes sense. At least, for me, and my tastes.
p.s. I am working on HITNF. It'll probably be late next week.
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I hear you. I can't fault that thinking at all. I just feel differently.
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Mindcrime and Promised Land are both brilliant in their own right and I get the differences between the two. However, MC is probably still known as the "quintessential" Queensryche album and does represent the pinnacle of their accomplishments. Love both albums, but if I had to choose, Mindcrime would be the one I enjoy more from beginning to end.
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For those unfamiliar with the live version of 'Someone Else?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp4vrmgntYo
goosebumps if you ever saw it in person......(and even if you did not....)
Another comment as to PL: I really missed the 'flanged' double lead guitars that were so prevalent on the prior releases. 'Out of Mind', 'Lady Jane', and 'One More Time' are the only ones that emphasize a 'uniqueness' that Qryche used effectively.
In a way, the same as what Queen did by not using the layered backing vocals, piano, and Brian's guitar. Then again, Eddie's bass sound and notes were still 'there'.
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Awesome! :tup
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For those unfamiliar with the live version of 'Someone Else?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp4vrmgntYo
goosebumps if you ever saw it in person......(and even if you were not....)
Another comment as to PL: I really missed the 'flanged' double lead guitars that were so prevalent on the prior releases. 'Out of Mind', 'Lady Jane', and 'One More Time' are the only ones that emphasize a 'uniqueness' that Qryche used effectively.
In a way, the same as what Queen did by not using the layered backing vocals, piano, and Brian's guitar. Then again, Eddie's bass sound and notes were still 'there'.
That last song of my first Queensryche show. I miss home. Thanks for putting that up (and to Setzer for uploading). Good memories...
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EDIT: Samsara and I are agreeing WAY too much. We need some controversy in this thread. Bring on HITNF!!! :lol
Yeah. This is NOT good. We're supposed to disagree more for sure. I think I'm mellowing in my old age or something. :lol
re: Mindcrime v. Promised Land
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Well, here you go, bosk. We disagree. I think Mindcrime was the ultimate pinnacle of the band from a full band creative standpoint. From a purely sonic standpoint, Empire and PL are better SOUNDING records. I think the warmer tones and Jimbo's mixing really accentuated the depths of Queensryche. But I also think Empire and PL (and DeGarmo mentioned this on the interview he and Tate did on the Empire DVD-A) started to strip the band's songwriting down to make it simpler. THAT is why I don't think Promised Land or Empire lives up to Mindcrime. Mindcrime was full-on Queensryche with everyone at the height of their creativity to really accentuate the concept. Pure brilliance.
They chose a harsher, colder tone for Mindcrime, and that made total sense (and Jimbo was part of that production team). But while I also think it was brilliant to go warmer, I think what you label as "maturity" in terms of songwriting, to me, was them streamlining and becoming simpler. And while it is "mature" to a degree, I also think getting simpler took away a little from what made them so powerful as a metal band.
Mindcrime is probably the last METAL record, and when they went hard rock, it made sense to warm up the tone and get a little simpler...but I'd argue they lost more than they gained, creatively because of that. Again, just my off-the-cuff thoughts here. Empire and PL are incredible...but because they are "simpler," I don't think they rise to the brilliance of Mindcrime, despite SOUNDING better, if that makes sense. At least, for me, and my tastes.
p.s. I am working on HITNF. It'll probably be late next week.
This sums my thinking up really.
What I enjoyed about Queensryche for three albums, was that sound. The contrast of the guitars, the sounds in the background, the more complex arrangements. As they simplified things it lost the Queensryche of it, and what I enjoyed
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Not nearly enough Promised Land (2 songs??) in that set list for me to give it a thumbs up. :P
It's at least one song too many.
You really don't like that record, do ya :lol I'll let ya slide cause your a UFO fanatic :biggrin: Promised Land is top three for me, joining Rage and Mindcrime. Next time you go to the dentist if they give you the laughing gas bring Promised Land with you on an ipod :biggrin: you'll get transformed to another dimension.
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p.s. I am working on HITNF. It'll probably be late next week.
Another week of Promised Land? :facepalm:
Sam, you're killing me! :lol
What's funny is that I've started a reply a number of times over the last few days, only to pull it back so I don't come off as a troll.
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p.s. I am working on HITNF. It'll probably be late next week.
Another week of Promised Land? :facepalm:
Sam, you're killing me! :lol
What's funny is that I've started a reply a number of times over the last few days, only to pull it back so I don't come off as a troll.
:rollin
Consider this payback for your Winger-hating (wrong) ways. :lol
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For those of you that mentioned the San Jose '95 show... Not only does it have that awesome soundboard recording (and at least 2 audience recordings) - it also has a video recording :corn
As for Tate sounding weird on that show, it's because he had a cold. Adds some extra rasp to some of his high notes, while other notes are... cracked. Which is understandable, but he still delivers a great performance on that show :metal
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There's video of the San Jose show?? Can someone with a copy who is willing to share PM me? How did I not know this all these years?
Unrelated question (and I apologize for getting way ahead and asking this now instead of when we get to Live Evolution, but if I wait, I will forget): If anyone knows, why is Geoff's monolog during the breakdown on Empire different on the live release than what he actually said live? Did they just edit out part of it or something? That has always baffled me, but I never thought to ask if anyone knows.
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Can anyone let me know what year this video is from?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVv58FDEsys
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Not Geoff's best...
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Can anyone let me know what year this video is from?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVv58FDEsys
I believe that's Queensryche Live Evolution. 2001?
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Yeah, that's from Live Evolution. I was at that show. They played I Am I and Damaged back to back. The I Am I video, complete with lots of Tate lip synching is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hQZivLxwEQ
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I've gotta say, that show looks extremely stylish. Nice set, very dark and simple, but still captivating.
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Yeah, it was. It was a pretty basic stage. Just the two big foil wrapped triryches at the back of the stage and the circular effects screen. Oh, and the bit half dome lighting rig. Even though it was stripped down, it looked good. Of course, it doesn't hurt that the Moore Theater is a pretty nice looking venue anyway.
I don't believe they showed any actual footage on the screen. It was just for general lighting effects like what you see in that clip. They might have played some of the Mindcrime video clips on it the night the Mindcrime stuff was shot. I wasn't there for night #1, and I don't remember from the live evolution video whether they showed any footage.
I really like the atmosphere on this version of Roads To Madness (even though they played an abridged version of the song and not the entire thing): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDFiD87CHcg
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The studio version of Someone Else? with nothing but Tate's voice and piano is amazing. I think some of you are crazy. :biggrin:
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Yeah, I'm so used to listening primarily to the studio album version the most that it is the one I'm most familiar with and I love the song. I like it better than the full band version. I do however really like the live version above, and I have a bootleg or two on dvd of that tour so I when I do play the dvd's I do really enjoy the live version. If I could go back in time and see one concert again that I attended, The Promised Land tour show would still be the one I'd choose all this time later.
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For those unfamiliar with the live version of 'Someone Else?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp4vrmgntYo
goosebumps if you ever saw it in person......(and even if you did not....)
Another comment as to PL: I really missed the 'flanged' double lead guitars that were so prevalent on the prior releases. 'Out of Mind', 'Lady Jane', and 'One More Time' are the only ones that emphasize a 'uniqueness' that Qryche used effectively.
In a way, the same as what Queen did by not using the layered backing vocals, piano, and Brian's guitar. Then again, Eddie's bass sound and notes were still 'there'.
That is a great version. Awesome vocal. He was one of the greats. Then jump forward a few short years to the Live Evolution video and it's awful. Such a shame, but self inflicted apparently. You got to look after your instrument
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There's video of the San Jose show?? Can someone with a copy who is willing to share PM me? How did I not know this all these years?
There certainly is. I'm currently cleaning up the video. Right now it says it'll take about 3˝ hours to clean up 70 minutes (the 1st DVD).... But it's going to be worth it when you see it in action :tup
Here's a screenshot. Not the exact same frame, but the comparison is very much still valid. Left/right = before/after https://i.imgur.com/2FTbwpv.png
EDIT: Here it is - https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxDcWR6wjL0fT_-fQXD5IxjfK7-XrSu_J
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Like I said, this thread prompted me to revisit the old Queensryche stuff that I actually discovered back in 2010 and have only occasionally returned to.
Wow.
First of all, Operation: mindcrime has always been one of my favorite albums. It's great and I've never let that slip from my mind. I reminded myself of how much I like Rage for order as well, and the debut album has its share of fantastic songs. Empire was always a mixed bag for me, since I never took to their accesible, slightly glam influenced style, but listening to it now, I find the songs better than I initially did.
The big surprise, however, turned out to be Promised land. Damaged has always been my favorite Ryche tune, but I just now realized that the streak of songs from Disconnected up to the closer is brillant. All absolutely remarkable tracks. Some experimental, some traditional rock tunes, some ballads. It's such an unbelievable album that I might rank it right behind Operation: mindcrime.
Kudos to Samsara, one of my favorite posters around here, for starting the thread and inspiring me to give this band another listen, and also to guys like Bosk, KevSchmev, TAC and other Queensryche experts for all the interesting information that educades slightly younger fans around here. Bring on Hear in the now frontier and all the other stuff that's coming up. I'm finally going to rip into those albums.
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Your underwear might rip too after you listen to them.
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Like I said, this thread prompted me to revisit the old Queensryche stuff that I actually discovered back in 2010 and have only occasionally returned to.
Wow.
First of all, Operation: mindcrime has always been one of my favorite albums. It's great and I've never let that slip from my mind. I reminded myself of how much I like Rage for order as well, and the debut album has its share of fantastic songs. Empire was always a mixed bag for me, since I never took to their accesible, slightly glam influenced style, but listening to it now, I find the songs better than I initially did.
The big surprise, however, turned out to be Promised land. Damaged has always been my favorite Ryche tune, but I just now realized that the streak of songs from Disconnected up to the closer is brillant. All absolutely remarkable tracks. Some experimental, some traditional rock tunes, some ballads. It's such an unbelievable album that I might rank it right behind Operation: mindcrime.
Kudos to Samsara, one of my favorite posters around here, for starting the thread and inspiring me to give this band another listen, and also to guys like Bosk, KevSchmev, TAC and other Queensryche experts for all the interesting information that educades slightly younger fans around here. Bring on Hear in the now frontier and all the other stuff that's coming up. I'm finally going to rip into those albums.
Thanks for the kind words. Really glad the thread has helped you re-discover some good tunes. I've found over the years that there really are some hidden gems that took me a while to fully appreciate.
For me personally, PL waffles in my "ranking." Mindcrime will always be tops. It's my favorite album of all time, period. But listening to the rest, at times, PL is #2, at times it is down there around #4. It certainly, however, SOUNDS the best out of ALL QR records. Such a lush sound to it. Regardless, I've always found PL to have a lot to offer, and it doesn't sound dated to a particular time period to my ears, which is always a big plus.
Hear in the Now Frontier is coming. I've been working on it. I don't want to make it as long as PL, but there is also a lot to cover, so I want to be sure to do it justice.
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Promise land does sound timeless, it's very well produced. Not dated at all.
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Like I said, this thread prompted me to revisit the old Queensryche stuff that I actually discovered back in 2010 and have only occasionally returned to.
Wow.
First of all, Operation: mindcrime has always been one of my favorite albums. It's great and I've never let that slip from my mind. I reminded myself of how much I like Rage for order as well, and the debut album has its share of fantastic songs. Empire was always a mixed bag for me, since I never took to their accesible, slightly glam influenced style, but listening to it now, I find the songs better than I initially did.
The big surprise, however, turned out to be Promised land. Damaged has always been my favorite Ryche tune, but I just now realized that the streak of songs from Disconnected up to the closer is brillant. All absolutely remarkable tracks. Some experimental, some traditional rock tunes, some ballads. It's such an unbelievable album that I might rank it right behind Operation: mindcrime.
Kudos to Samsara, one of my favorite posters around here, for starting the thread and inspiring me to give this band another listen, and also to guys like Bosk, KevSchmev, TAC and other Queensryche experts for all the interesting information that educades slightly younger fans around here. Bring on Hear in the now frontier and all the other stuff that's coming up. I'm finally going to rip into those albums.
I appreciate the shout-out :tup :tup, but I am by no means a Queensryche expert compared to Samsara or bosk1.
TAC is another story... :biggrin: :lol
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:lol
I resemble that remark!
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Hear in the Now Frontier (1997)
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/hitnf.jpg)
Lineup:
Geoff Tate – Lead vocals
Chris DeGarmo – Lead & rhythm guitars/vocals
Michael Wilton – Lead & rhythm guitars
Eddie Jackson – Bass/vocals
Scott Rockenfield – Drums/percussion
Overview
1996 was a huge turning point for Queensryche. Fresh off of what was likely considered their first commercial “flop” of a record, Queensryche was under pressure to regain a foothold in modern hard rock music. The problem? Allegedly, the band was not motivated to start work on a new album. Tate and Rockenfield had remarried and were focused on the home front. So, when EMI started to push Queensryche for music, it was DeGarmo who once again attempted to rally the band together and get on the same page.
This time around, however, instead of looking inward for inspiration, Queensryche looked at the success bands in their neighborhood (Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Nirvana, Pearl Jam) had experienced over the past few years, and began experimenting. The result was Hear in the Now Frontier. The 14-track effort was released on March 25, 1997, on the strength of the lead single, “Sign of the Times.” From a sonic perspective, the album was unlike anything Queensryche had ever attempted. The production was very dry, and the songs were stripped of the expansive atmosphere fans had come to expect with Queensryche.
In short, Hear in the Now Frontier was Queensryche's attempt to capture the essence of grunge and alternative rock in an effort to get back on mainstream rock fans' radars, and recapture some momentum.
“Sign of the Times” initially did very well for the band on rock radio, as did the follow-up single, “You.” But the success was short-lived, as EMI Records went bankrupt and closed its doors less than a month after Hear in the Now Frontier was released. When that happened, radio station programmers were no longer lobbied to play Queensryche, and both songs subsequently dropped off of playlists. As a result, Hear in the Now Frontier quickly disappeared from the charts, and while the band followed through on a summer tour in America to support the record, they had no record label to financially back them. Adding insult to injury, their longtime management team, Q-Prime, also bailed on them.
So, instead of a long album campaign, Queensryche played to half-filled venues with the remnants of a not completed marketing campaign and found themselves (at the conclusion of the tour) in search of a new label, management, and direction.
The Songs
Queensryche decided to bring in a new voice behind the glass to helm the Hear in the Now Frontier sessions, going with Toby Wright (Alice in Chains) instead of James “Jimbo” Barton. Wright was an A-list engineer and mixer at the time, having been at the forefront of mid-1990s hard rock. As mentioned earlier, Queensryche was focused on a more stripped down, bare bones approach, and felt Wright was the perfect choice to capture what the band was going for.
From a writing standpoint, Queensryche had always been a band that did extensive pre-production, working over songs a great deal before going in to record them properly. DeGarmo and the band elected to take a different route with Hear in the Now Frontier. Most of the songs were demoed, and then recorded without much re-working. The idea was not only to work faster, but to embrace a looser, more natural feel. At the time, it was completely opposite of how Queensryche operated.
The results were at best, mixed. The rawer sound never really appealed to Queensryche's core fanbase. In addition, while past records from the band had a filler track or two, Hear in the Now Frontier was bloated, with good musical ideas never seemingly fleshed-out properly. Quite simply, Queensryche stripped away the elements of what made them distinct as a band. It was, unfortunately, a huge mistake and one the group ultimately never recovered from.
To be fair, however, there were some bright spots on Hear in the Now Frontier. Lyrically, the record was arguably one of Queensryche's finest, with the usual balance of social commentary and personal issues combined with alternating direct and vague styles. And some songs have really stood the test of time.
For example, “spOOL” is regularly touted as the best song from the record. The appreciation for it is not surprising, as it harkens back to the darker, more layered approach the band Queensryche used in the past, and likely would be right at home on Promised Land or Empire. The uplifting ballad, “Some People Fly,” also maintains some popularity among fans, as does the hard rocking “Hit the Black.”
Taking a deeper dive into the performances on Hear in the Now Frontier, the intricate guitar work is a clear standout. Make no mistake – despite the style of the songs embracing a more alternative and grunge meets hard rock direction, DeGarmo's lead work is distinct and noteworthy. For example, the outro solo in the creepy “Hero” could be one of his finest recorded moments. The harmonized solo with Wilton in “You,” lifts an otherwise repetitive song to new heights. In addition, DeGarmo's slide guitar in the uplifting “The Voice Inside” is captivating.
For every highlight, however, there were multiple duds. Songs such as “Anytime/Anywhere” and its sexually-charged lyrics were cringe-worthy. Also regrettable was “All I Want.” The song is an off-center love song of sorts (listen and you'll hear that it's not your standard ballad) with a Beatles-like vibe. If that wasn't different enough for Queensryche, DeGarmo took lead vocals on the track. While he does an admirable job, the moment Tate comes in to sing background, you can tell how much stronger Tate's voice is, which ultimately undermines the track.
In a nutshell, Hear in the Now Frontier has way more half-baked ideas than gems, and is generally referred to by fans as one of Queensryche's worst efforts.
In addition to the two officially released singles, “The Voice Inside” and “spOOL” were promotional singles, and rumored to have been the next tunes released to radio...before EMI went belly-up. Check out some art here:
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-signofthetimes.jpg) (https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-you.jpg) (https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-tvi.jpg) (https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-spool.jpg)
Song notes: David Ragsdale (of Kansas) plays violin on “Sign of the Times.” For more on that tune, and the meaning behind it, check out www.anybodylistening.net/hearinthenowfrontier.html. In addition, the sound effect of someone taking a picture at the end of "Get a Life" was misplaced. It was supposed to be at the beginning of the song.
B-Sides
The list of true b-sides for Hear in the Now Frontier is limited. Of note is the quite popular “Chasing Blue Sky,” which features a harmonica solo and is generally thought of as one of this album cycle's best tracks. It was also recorded by Rockenfield and his songwriting partner guitarist Paul Speer (using a different singer) for their side project record/soundtrack called Televoid that was released later in 1997. The soundtrack would ultimately earn Rockenfield/Speer a Grammy nomination for best long-form video.
There was also a track titled “Tomorrow Begins Today,” which was initially written by Michael Wilton. Queensryche elected not to record the song, and Wilton ultimately gave it to a local artist by the name of Aury Moore (Pamela “Suite Sister Mary” Moore's sister), who re-rewrote and released the track as “Breakin' Me,” on a solo album. Wilton's demo version of the song has never been released or surfaced in any form.
Other b-sides from the record were live versions of songs performed on the MTV Unplugged sessions.
Pre-Tour Appearances
Although not discussed much in the Promised Land write-up, Queensryche performed a handful of warm up promotional dates in Europe in the fall of 1994. They went over so well, that the band elected to do one stateside for Hear in the Now Frontier. Dubbed “The VLA Show” by fans, Queensryche played a 90-minute gig on June 5, 1997, in Sorroco, New Mexico, right next to the very large array satellite dishes, “beaming” their show into both the “now” and “final” frontiers.
The show was dubbed a “dress rehearsal” for the tour, and fans who attended received special certificates signed by the band. See https://www.anybodylistening.net/6-5-97.html for the setlist, photos, and an image of the certificate.
The VLA show (the first eight songs of it) was broadcasted live nationally in the United States, and a few bootlegs have surfaced over the years with the recording.
A much rarer recording took place two days earlier back in Washington state. When Queensryche appeared on KISW DJ Bob Rivers' “Bob's Garage” show, featuring an unplugged performance. The band performed “Bridge,” “Silent Lucidity,” and “Some People Fly” live. That set the stage for a number of acoustic radio show appearances throughout Queensryche's summer tour. The show was also a historic one for Queensryche, as it was engineered by former Tate MYTH bandmate Kelly Gray, who would ultimately fill a much bigger role for Queensryche in the not too distant future...
Touring
The Hear in the Now FronTOUR began in earnest on June 17, 1997, in Rapid City, S.D. It was the band's shortest headliner-level support tour (starting with the Empire tour, not including the end of the Operation: Mindcrime tour), clocking in at just two months on the road.The tour concluded on Aug. 17, in San Antonio, Texas. Staging included video screens and a giant inflatable ear. It was fairly stripped down given the preceding two tours, and for good reason – without a label, Queensryche (by itself) financed the entire two months on the road.
Note: Tate would generally acknowledge the weird ear on stage by calling it “something left over from the Mike Tyson fight,” referencing the championship bout that summer where Tyson bit off a piece of Evander Holyfield's ear in the ring.
Setlist-wise, Queensryche's normal set (they had two sets, with a shorter one used during the period of Geoff's illness. More on that later...) was generally 24 tracks in length, with a running time of just under two hours. The band made sure to play half of Hear in the Now Frontier (seven tracks) live, along with a smattering of hits from every record in Queensryche's catalog...except for Rage for Order. That record was ignored entirely, except for a show or two in August 1997, where they played “Walk in the Shadows.” Queensryche also played “The Killing Words” once acoustically on July 29, 1997 in Buffalo. If memory serves, this was apparently fulfilling a promise made to a fan at an in-store signing a day or two beforehand.
On July 19, 1997, however, the tour took a turn for the worse. Sitting backstage in Columbus, Ohio, Tate came down with a horrendous summer cold, blowing out his voice. Queensryche took the stage and got mid-way through “You” (the fifth song in the set) before Tate walked off the stage. The band stopped playing, and after a few minutes, DeGarmo came out and explained how sick Geoff was and apologized, but they'd be unable to continue.
For the first time (as far as anyone could remember in the band) in its career, Queensryche had to cancel two shows due to illness. Planned gigs in Dayton and Cleveland were cancelled. Tate got back on-stage for a second night booked in Cleveland (July 22 at the Blossom Music Center), but with a shortened setlist (they dropped four or five songs), and having swapped in “Della Brown” for “Hit the Black.”
It took over a week for Tate to recover enough to perform the band's usual setlist. They returned to it on July 30, 1997, when Queensryche performed at Jones Beach on Long Island.
After the North American tour concluded, Queensryche had a week's worth of South American dates to play in December 1997. Those dates marked the end of all support for Hear in the Now Frontier, and marked another, more serious change in the band.
Chris DeGarmo's Departure
Once the North American run in support of Hear in the Now Frontier concluded, the band went its separate ways for a few months. It was during this time that Chris DeGarmo made the decision to leave the band. To be clear, DeGarmo has never publicly revealed his reasons for leaving Queensryche. What follows is speculation based on 20 years of fact-gathering and reports from those close to DeGarmo and the band...
DeGarmo had been having thoughts on leaving the band since the Empire days (remember the “Dark Empire” article referenced in the Empire discussion earlier). With all the changes Queensryche had endured since that time (e.g. the issues with Tate after Empire, the new marriages and changing relationships in the band) things were beginning to take their toll on the guitarist. Making things worse was EMI Records folding and Q-Prime dumping Queensryche, which left the band completely on its own after two consecutive unsuccessful albums.
With Queensryche needing to begin anew in every regard, no one in the band (according to various people close to them) offered to help shoulder some of the load, either creatively or business-wise. They all allegedly just assumed that DeGarmo would handle it like he always did (he was president of the band's corporation). This added to the pressure already on Chris. Faced with that, and allegedly his disdain for how Tate's new wife (the current Susan) was (according to people with ties to the group) trying to needle her way into band operations (she took over for Michael Wilton's mother as head of the fan club in 1997) and the issues that may create with Tate moving forward, DeGarmo was clearly frustrated. Compounding everything was Chris' own family life. As mentioned earlier, DeGarmo's father left Chris, his brother, and his mother early in their life, and Chris did not want to be an absentee father and husband during his children's formative years.
So, instead of fighting with the band (and in some cases, their spouses) over Queensryche's business affairs and future, and having to do all the legwork in finding new management and a new label, DeGarmo decided to leave Queensryche. He allegedly told the band a couple months after the North American tour ended. Later on, Kelly Gray (mentioned earlier) recalled doing some wiring and home studio installation at DeGarmo's house at the time, under the premise that he (Gray) would be playing a production/engineering role on Queensryche's next record, and Gray said DeGarmo did not say a word regarding his intent to leave the band.
Once DeGarmo announced his intentions to the band, it likely made for an awkward trip to South America, where Queensryche was contractually obligated to play in December 1997. They fulfilled those dates, and then announced in early 1998 that DeGarmo had left the band. The announcement was made online and to various media outlets.
Queensryche, as many would soon find out, would never be the same...
Note: To repeat, the above is culled from generally what is known from the rumor mill and assorted musings from those close to DeGarmo and the band. I did my best to streamline it and leave out some of the more personal details that read more like tabloid fodder. DeGarmo, to his credit, has never publicly addressed his split with Queensryche, and always speaks of his former bandmates in the best light possible. The above is purely connecting the dots of various bits of information.
A quick word on DeGarmo, post-1997: DeGarmo served as Alice in Chains guitarist/singer Jerry Cantrell's second guitarist in Cantrell's solo band in 1998 (on a summer/fall tour supporting Cantrell's Boggy Depot album). During that time, Chris also earned higher instrument ratings that enabled him to become a full-time charter, pilot, and later, an airline (not commercial, think Fed Ex) pilot. It is rumored the latter is his current position.
This isn't the last word on DeGarmo, however. Stay tuned for more on Chris and his involvement with Queensryche as we move on in this discography discussion.
Samsara's top-three from HITNF: spOOL, Hit the Black, The Voice Inside
Next up: The Kelly Gray Era (1998-2001, featuring Q2k and Live Evolution)
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Once again an interesting read.
In a sense this was the beginning of the end, and I remember never really liking this album. I dig however Sign of the Times. Also, what the title is supposed to mean? :D
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album should be re-named "The Beginning of the End".
total shock was my initial reaction upon first listen, which turned into confusion, which ultimately turned to disappointment.
one of the bigger music let downs I can remember.
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Hear in the Now Frontier (1997)
It took over a week for Tate to recover enough to perform the band's usual setlist. They returned to it on July 30, 1997, when Queensryche performed at Jones Beach on Long Island.
Well done, Brian. Funny memory, but I remember attending this exact show and knowing Geoff was having health issues. I remember them playing a song from their longer set list, meaning they'd be playing the full set and Geoff was likely feeling better. I was in the fourth row, and I remember looking to my left and seeing Brian and his friend yell in excitement as they realized the longer set list would be performed, lol. :D
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I was incredibly disappointed in this album. The stripped down approach didn't sit well with me. Everyone else was doing it and I generally don't like it. There were too many songs, too many were just dull.
But it lacked much of what made QR QR.
There is some ok stuff in here, and it's a shit ton better than most of what came after, but it's just not that good.
I always felt that this was the CDG album, and when I didn't connect with it, the loss of Chris didn't hit me too hard tbh. But maybe that was because after the early life changing albums for me, we now had two albums that just weren't essential listening to me. And Dream Theater had taken over as my favourite band.
I thought it was the end of QR as I expected Tate to take over and it was clear that he wasn't a metal guy. I saw the band 'going grunge' like everyone else had and I pretty much moved on. I bought Q2k, and Tribe (but only because it was signed by the band) but my heart wasn't in it.
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When this album first came out, I wasn't quite sure what to think. There were definitely some high points. But I was a bit alarmed that I didn't immediately LOVE the album. But despite its more stripped-down nature (relatively speaking, anyway), since the time I had discovered Queensryche up to now, all their albums had been growers that I didn't immediately "get," but came to deeply love and appreciate over time as they slowly sank in.
One thing that I also appreciated about Queensryche up through this album is that, while they had their own unique take on things and didn't try to "copy" any particular sound, from album to album, they managed to zero in on a particular aspect of the music industry around them and have it reflected in their sound. I think that is definitely true on this album as well. Samsara put it this way:
In short, Hear in the Now Frontier was Queensryche's attempt to capture the essence of grunge and alternative rock in an effort to get back on mainstream rock fans' radars, and recapture some momentum.
This album was anything but grunge or alternative. And, yet, it did somewhat "capture the essence" of or at least reflect those styles in a very Queensryche way. But despite its relatively stripped down sound, the album is still layered and complex, perhaps deceptively so. I think one of the main reasons it sounds as simple and straightforward as it does is because of the drumming. A huge factor in Queensryche's earlier albums sounding so huge and complex was Rockenfield's drumming. It is very busy and complex, which gives the songs a different feeling than if he just played straightforward beats. On HITNF, he for the first time often plays mostly simple-sounding, straightforward beats, and that changes the overall feeling and vibe of the album.
Obviously, this was a very different kind of album from the band. But I loved it and still do. It has a few tracks I don't care for all that much, like Anytime/Anywhere and Get a Life. But I really enjoy most of the songs on this album. And, depending on my mood, I rank it as high as #4 overall in their discography behind only Empire, Promised Land, and Mindcrime.
A few notes on some specific songs:
-All I Want: I had to talk about this one. First, the vocals. Yeah, CDG's voice isn't as strong as Tate's. But, honestly, I can't picture Tate singing this song. I think it needed to be understated and sound sincere and UNmelodramatic, and I'm not sure Tate could have pulled that off like Chris did. No, this isn't a grammy winning vocal performance. But it doesn't need to be. To me, Chris captures the eerie sincerely obsessive vibe the lyrics call for. And speaking of the lyrics, as Samsara pointed out, they aren't what they seem. This isn't a standard ballad, but is a creepy anti-ballad about an obsessed lover (perhaps borderline stalker). ...which I personally believe ties directly into the album art. I won't give away my theory. But based on what I've already said, I think it's easy to connect the dots. Anyhow, this isn't a standard song. It's a bit of a strange novelty. And I like and appreciate it for that. It will never appear on any of my "top __ songs" lists. But I still enjoy it very much.
-The Voice Inside: Also very different for a Queensryche song, and I absolutely love it. Its plodding beat serves as a nice backdrop for those big, harsh, dissonant chords. I always thought this would make a cool opener, and on my Queensryche mix tape back in the day, I had this as the first song after an intro of "I Remember Now," which worked really well (and was a fun fake out for people listening with me that were expecting Anarchy X).
-Reach: Along with The Voice Inside and spool, this is a contender for best song on the album. The only downside is that the solo, which is pretty tasty, feels like something that should have been included as an interlude solo in between verses to make way for something a bit more epic in the actual primary solo spot. But to me, this song is an often overlooked gem.
-Chasing Blue Sky: I had the Japanese import version of the album, which was the only way at the time to get this song. It was a nice addition. Nothing spectacular, but very moody and different. I much prefer Geoff singing it than the version that was on Televoid.
Overall, this album showed the band again trying something different. For perhaps the last time in their history, I feel like the experimenting paid off and delivered a very rewarding album.
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Great write up, boring record. I re-listened to this last week and yesterday and enjoy only a handful of tracks. Sign of the Times, You, Reach, Hit the Black, and Spool. I can tolerate The Voice Inside, but the rest of the record just doesn't work for me. And I refuse to buy into the fact that it's great simply because....DeGarmo.
I know fans love him, I know fans love what he brings to the band and his "nuances," but if he's going to write music like this, I want no part of it. The awesome guitars are mostly absent from this album, save the tracks above. I don't mind stylistic change - I love the album that came after this one. But to me, HITNF is just dull and too dry for my tastes.
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My personal story on this one starts a few months prior to release. A friend of a friend was connected and got us a copy of HITNF about a month before the release date, on a dubbed cassette. I made a copy, listened religiously, and wondered where the hell the band I loved was. Ha ha ha.
But, remembering my reaction to Promised Land, I gave it some time. It didn't quite grow on me like PL did, but I came away with some favorites like spOOL and Hit the Black. I ended up buying it on CD on release day. I was also a newly-minted fan club member, and got a bunch of swag to put up around town. I kept a couple items for myself, and met the band for the first time on tour (twice).
The first was at the PNC Bank Arts Center in Holmdel, NJ. I remember standing there with two of my friends, first on line at this gate they had set up that would lead to some covered pavilions where we'd meet the band. They opened the gates, and the three of us just stood there, dumbfounded. Finally, I elbowed and said "lets go!" and we proceeded to meet and grab a pic with each of the guys. I don't remember much more about that day, except for the images of the pictures captured.
A few nights later we were at the pre-show meet and greet again, and a little looser. I brought one of those saved fan club HITNF posters for the guys to sign, which they did. I also got to talk to DeGarmo more, and people got mad because I asked about his pilot's license, and he lit up like a Christmas tree and almost pulled me aside to talk about it for probably a solid five minutes straight. I sorta felt bad, but it was a moment I'd never forget. My friend Adam took our picture, and it was really cool. Good show too.
I have pictures of meeting the band both nights, along with the ticket stubs and backstage passes framed at home.
As for the record, it hasn't really gotten better for me as a whole over the years, but I have a renewed respect for what DeGarmo was trying to do, and understand it more. I genuinely like slightly more than half the record:
Sign of the Times
The Voice Inside
You
Some People Fly
Reach
Hit the Black
Hero
spOOL
Some of those are not quite as good as others on the list, but I "like" them. The other songs on the record...I don't need to really hear them again. Some interesting qualities to them, but they really don't do it for me AT ALL. I mean, I don't particularly like "Before the Storm," but it's still an enjoyable listen. The songs I left off the above list from HITNF -- no interest in hearing them ever again (although I have listened in doing the write up).
To me, Queensryche was all about pushing boundaries. But HITNF pushed too hard in the stripped down direction, and it took away from who they were as a band. A lot of people blame DeGarmo on this one, and he does deserve a chunk of that blame. However, I do like to point out that no one else really helped step up and contribute. Wilton had one writing credit, Ed had one or two. I mean, at some point, if the band didn't like what it was hearing, they should have contributed other songs. But who knows how it went, ya know? None of us were there.
I will say, however, that over time, those eight songs I listed above are tracks that I still regularly listen to when listening to Queensryche. I think the guitar playing is a lot better than people think it is (the solo in You is fantastic, as is the one in Hero), and had Queensryche elected to take some more time to flesh some of the tunes out (Saved is a great example -- terrible chorus and Tate sings it poorly, unfortunately), and trimmed some clear fillers, HITNF could have been much, much better.
It wouldn't have done any better, sales-wise, because of the issues stated in the write-up, but better production and more time spent in pre-pro would have served HITNF much better.
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Well done, Brian. Funny memory, but I remember attending this exact show and knowing Geoff was having health issues. I remember them playing a song from their longer set list, meaning they'd be playing the full set and Geoff was likely feeling better. I was in the fourth row, and I remember looking to my left and seeing Brian and his friend yell in excitement as they realized the longer set list would be performed, lol. :D
Thanks! And I remember you telling me about that! And now that you say it again, I do remember the "will they, or won't they" excitement regarding the setlist, and then that joy when it was clear we'd get the whole thing. I figured they would, given it was Jones Beach, but given how bad Geoff was sick, it was dicey. Still thrilled to this day I got to hear two slightly different sets on that tour. I love Della Brown, and fortunately I got to see the original lineup play it in Jersey...
One thing that I also appreciated about Queensryche up through this album is that, while they had their own unique take on things and didn't try to "copy" any particular sound, from album to album, they managed to zero in on a particular aspect of the music industry around them and have it reflected in their sound. I think that is definitely true on this album as well. Samsara put it this way:
In short, Hear in the Now Frontier was Queensryche's attempt to capture the essence of grunge and alternative rock in an effort to get back on mainstream rock fans' radars, and recapture some momentum.
This album was anything but grunge or alternative. And, yet, it did somewhat "capture the essence" of or at least reflect those styles in a very Queensryche way. But despite its relatively stripped down sound, the album is still layered and complex, perhaps deceptively so.
Yes, exactly that. It was something Queensryche had this knack of being able to do back then, with the original lineup. They always (except for PL, in my opinion) embraced musical trends, but did so in a way that made it distinctly their own. And "deceptively complex" is exactly how I'd describe HITNF (in retrospect).
I think one of the main reasons it sounds as simple and straightforward as it does is because of the drumming. A huge factor in Queensryche's earlier albums sounding so huge and complex was Rockenfield's drumming. It is very busy and complex, which gives the songs a different feeling than if he just played straightforward beats. On HITNF, he for the first time often plays mostly simple-sounding, straightforward beats, and that changes the overall feeling and vibe of the album.
Great observation. I never really took notice of that before, but you're absolutely on the money with that. That continued a bit of a trend starting with Empire, where Scott sort of started to lay back a bit, as the direction shifted from metal to hard rock. He took it more to an extreme simplicity with HITNF...
-All I Want: *snip* To me, Chris captures the eerie sincerely obsessive vibe the lyrics call for. And speaking of the lyrics, as Samsara pointed out, they aren't what they seem. This isn't a standard ballad, but is a creepy anti-ballad about an obsessed lover (perhaps borderline stalker). ...which I personally believe ties directly into the album art. I won't give away my theory. But based on what I've already said, I think it's easy to connect the dots.
You should. You've told it to me, and I do buy into it. I wasn't going to reveal it in the write-up, because you're the only one who has ever said it (to my knowledge), and no one (again, to my knowledge) has asked Chris, so please share!
-The Voice Inside: Also very different for a Queensryche song, and I absolutely love it. Its plodding beat serves as a nice backdrop for those big, harsh, dissonant chords. I always thought this would make a cool opener, and on my Queensryche mix tape back in the day, I had this as the first song after an intro of "I Remember Now," which worked really well (and was a fun fake out for people listening with me that were expecting Anarchy X).
I love this song. Love it more today than I did even when I first heard it -- and I could never really identify why, except to say the message resonated. But your description of the beat leaving an opening for the chords...yeah, it works nicely. And I thought it was a great opener on the HITNF tour.
-Reach: Along with The Voice Inside and spool, this is a contender for best song on the album. The only downside is that the solo, which is pretty tasty, feels like something that should have been included as an interlude solo in between verses to make way for something a bit more epic in the actual primary solo spot. But to me, this song is an often overlooked gem.
Agreed. I have this in my personal top-5 from the album. I totally feel you on the Wilton solo. I wanted more. But I think with what they were trying to accomplish with the record, "more" (at the time) may have deviated from the goal. But I've always loved this track. The ending is a little lame, but lyrically, it's fun. You don't get the legal jargon though, until you go to law school and take Civil Procedure (at least I didn't). ha ha ha.
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This record.
After Promised Land, which I thought was a great artistic success for them, I felt they could have gone anywhere musically as long as they held on to what made them distinctive. I did not expect a grunge record. I got it on release day if I'm not mistaken, probably at a Media Play (remember them?). As a drummer, I was furious at the atrocious drum sound. The drums were dry, limp and lifeless. When I looked at the credits I saw Toby Wright mixed the record, and I immediately remembered he had mixed the final (at the time) Alice in Chains record, and the drum sound was terrible on that record as well. I remember really trying to give this record a chance. I could understand going for a stripped down sound, but this record was anorexic. It was like they forgot everything that made them distinctive in the first place.
Further diving into the record, there are signs all over the place that all is not well in the band. DeGarmo had half of the lyric credits and almost all of the music credits. Wilton had one song. After contributing to 4 songs on PL, Rockenfield had nothing apart from the Chasing Blue Sky B-side. Tate had 7 lyric credits, and with the exception of Spool and maybe Some People Fly, they're largely throw-away. Get A Life? Anytime/Anywhere? Saved? Please. DeGarmo's lyrics mostly hit, and I think his frustration shines through, especially in hindsight. It's clear that he's evaluating his place in both society and within the band. Hell, even in the band pictures you can see the malaise and the cracks in the armor. In the photo in the center of the booklet, you've got Tate and Rockenfield staring somewhat blankly off into the distance, DeGarmo contemplating the Tri-Ryche on the floor. Only Wilton and Jackson are looking directly into the camera, and Wilton is in the corner in the back. In the other picture, it's a very similar vibe. With the way things turned out for the band with the subsequent tour, the label folding, and being dropped by Q-Prime, and with DeGarmo's departure, I'm actually surprised they decided to carry on. To me it was kind of obvious, even without knowing all of the details, that they needed a break.
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Nice post, romdrums! I agree with much of it, but I personally wouldn't put too much stock into the band photos. 99% of bands never smile or look happy in band photos, lol. :)
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I can't remember the last time I listened to this album. I would have to go back and hear it again just to find out if there were any parts of it that I actually liked. This is when QR pretty much fell off my map. Although, I did continue to keep buying subsequent albums hoping for something better, it never happened. Not until the last 2 albums have I become interested again.
However, I appreciate your efforts in these write-ups Samsara. No easy task, and based on your analysis of some of the details, I'll try to make an effort to got back and appreciate some of the observations you've made. Thanks. :)
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Great effort and write up Brian!
I give this album a courtesy listen once or twice a year just out of respect to the band, but it's still hard to grasp that the same group of men that made the six previous albums, made this one. Its a decent rock album, but nothing more. This is the definition of less is more when it comes to music. Knock 4 songs off this album to 10 and its already better. Not including anything from DTC, "All I Want" is easily my most disliked Queensryche song in their discography. Keep that for a solo album and keep it away from QR. How they thought to include that song would be a good idea is a head scratcher.
But there are some good songs. I really like "You" and I think "Some People Fly" is a great ballad.
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Nice post, romdrums! I agree with much of it, but I personally wouldn't put too much stock into the band photos. 99% of bands never smile or look happy in band photos, lol. :)
True. ;)
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I don't find this album to be "Terrible" per say. I absolutely loved Promised Land right from release, and I realized that it was a pretty major departure from the heavier stuff, so I gave HITNF a fair shake, It was the new album by my favorite band, so I tried hard to like it and I found that I did really like about four songs from the album. The problem was the songs after those four were really, really, tough to get into and were almost a chore to listen to trying to find a positive. That never happened before, at least not with me, where there were several songs that I just flat out didn't care for from this band. Well it happened for the first time with this record.
I thoroughly enjoyed the show from this tour that I saw (Philly - Mann music Center) but it was a strange vibe on that tour I could almost sense things had changed and they had changed drastically. The fans were more subdued, the stage set up was weird, less of a crowd than I had expected. despite all this I was still shocked when DeGarmo left the band.
looking back on the record now, nothing has changed. I pretty much pull it out on occasion to play those same four songs (Sign of the Times, Some People Fly, Hit the Black and Spool) beyond that it's pretty much a forced listen and one that gets aborted on most occasions. This album is a significant drop off and disappointment for the most part, but from here on out for the remainder of the Tate years it becomes the norm more so than the exception.
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Have to disagree with Samsara in regard to the solos - these stuck to the grunge style, if we have to have one it can't be flashy. Too many dreary, plodding songs.
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I was at the aforementioned Columbus, Ohio show where he blew his voice out. I think I went into some detail about it earlier in this thread, or it might have been the other QR thread. To this day, I still don't know what the setlist for this tour was supposed to look like. We got 5 songs at the Columbus show, and there was talk of them coming back to make up the date at the beginning, but they ended up canceling it a couple of weeks later.
Interesting (or maybe not) side story to that show. When I took the tickets back to the record shop in Delaware, Ohio that I purchased them at to cash them in, I heard a couple of cuts off of the Abraxas Pool album that came out around then for the very first time. I absolutely love that album, and that memory has always stuck in my mind.
There are some good songs on this record. Of course, most people like Spool, but my favorite track is the Voice Inside.
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I remember getting this CD and Tonic's "Lemon Parade" the same day. I really liked the change of the sound. I was okay with a different style. I think over time there are certain songs that are really weak while I still love most of the songs. It's still a very good album for me just not up to the level of the other albums before it but it's still a good album.
All I Want never bothered me as a song. I knew it was Chris DeGarmo singing it was something different and I thought it was cool. I couldn't stand the song Hero.
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One of the biggest plummets of all time. They went from a masterpiece to this? There are a few good songs on there, but by and large this is a mediocre record (which is being kind), one that isn't worthy of any more keystrokes.
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My third Qryche concert, this time in Grand Rapids, MI. (a week before his illness). Seats approximately the same as this Noblesville concert https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c6srtvlHZc . Because of the concert opener, I put 'The Voice Inside' as the opening track of a 90 minute 'best of' cassette, and to this day, that song has always been my cdr opener.
A nice vibe to the concert, though it wasn't as packed as Auburn Hills or Kalamazoo on the previous two tours, perhaps because a bit of the 'mania' had died down. Or maybe because I was many years older, just like the band. For that, and a few other reasons, it was my favorite Qryche concert. I loved the 'ears' for the video screens. Tate spent a lot more time behind the keyboards (The Mission, Eyes of A Stranger). I swear 'Some People Fly' did not close out the concert as is listed, but I never kept a record of setlists.
With deletions, there's 8-10 tracks worth listening to make it a fair album. The shame is that there 14. So much to sift through to make something decent. With the 'extras' that came out on the GH release of '03...
Sign Of The Times / The Voice Inside / Some People Fly / You / Chasing Blue Sky
SIDE TWO
Reach / Hero / All I Want / Anytime-Anywhere / Someone Else (ext version)....sp00l as an optional closer
I did buy the 'Sign of the Times' cd single. The band pic should have been the picture used as the 'back sleeve' of the album booklet. Very 'artsy', or should I say, 'earie' ;)
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I took a listen to this album for the first time today and wow, it is not good. I really think the mix is terrible on this record. If you gave me this cd and said this is the demo for the upcoming album I'd believe it.
There is nothing wrong with having a strip down sound but this album is tight, but not in a good way. It feels claustrophobic if that makes sense.
As for the songs themselves there are some cool ideas here and there but that's about it.
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Well done, Brian. Funny memory, but I remember attending this exact show and knowing Geoff was having health issues. I remember them playing a song from their longer set list, meaning they'd be playing the full set and Geoff was likely feeling better. I was in the fourth row, and I remember looking to my left and seeing Brian and his friend yell in excitement as they realized the longer set list would be performed, lol. :D
Thanks! And I remember you telling me about that! And now that you say it again, I do remember the "will they, or won't they" excitement regarding the setlist, and then that joy when it was clear we'd get the whole thing. I figured they would, given it was Jones Beach, but given how bad Geoff was sick, it was dicey. Still thrilled to this day I got to hear two slightly different sets on that tour. I love Della Brown, and fortunately I got to see the original lineup play it in Jersey...
This inspired me to dig up my photos from that show. I was a still a teenager at the time and it was my first QR concert. I remember being so nervous to meet the band beforehand that I forgot to set the flash on my disposable camera for every photo except for the one with Geoff, which I posted below. Damn, I look so young, lol. I also caught a guitar pic, which made my night. Anyway, sorry for the sidetrack trip down memory lane, lol. On with the HITNF chatter! :)
(https://photouploads.com/images/5805e3.jpg)
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I've never known if it was the sufficiently lowered expectations from how bitterly disappointed I was with Promised Land, or if it was perhaps that with Motley Crue, Def Leppard, Extreme... and basically every other band popular in the 80s/early 90s releasing a heavily grunge influenced album that I was ready for QR doing something similar (at least they were from Seattle though...), or perhaps it's just that the songs on HiTNF sat quite well with me, but I've always really liked HiTNF.
Favourites from the album: Cuckoo's Nest, Saved, All I Want (love DeGarmo's vocals for it) and sp00L.
I do wish the production wasn't so dry, though and over time my rating of HiTNF and Promised Land has equalised to a 7/10 for both.
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I can make this very short. I bought it. I di'dn't like it. At ALL. I played it through once, liked perhaps ONE song. Played it halfway through the next day to make sure my ears weren't damaged or something. Then threw it away in disgust, after shortly considering using it as a coffee-mug coaster. Seriously. I hated this album. And I started worrying deeply about the future of one of my favourite bands of all time.
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A lot of my thoughts have already been captured. Highly disappointed in this album. Re-listening to it for the first time since (likely) 1997 has simply reinforced my opinion. There are some decent elements here and there (a good melody, good riff, good solo), but I personally think that Some People Fly and You are the only full songs that I think are good... and nothing is anything I'd consider great. The drums are thin and no longer bombastic - which as others touched on affects the entire mood of the album. Not sure if that's the fault of Rockenfield or Wright - but does it really matter? It's what we get to hear
Save a few songs that got a shit-ton of radio play, I absolutely hate 'grunge' for what it did to my favorite bands of that time - either killing them, or critically wounding them.
This was the 'end' of the band for me. I didn't follow them at all after this until the late 00's (maybe even the early '10s), and tried out some of the subsequent releases - only to find they were even worse (how was that even possible!?!?!?).
Thankfully, they returned to form (mostly) in 2013. More on that later though.
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I have two positive things to say about this record: Sign Of The Times and sp00l are really good songs.
That's it, the rest is bland and forgettable, not because it is stripped down or different from what they've done before, or grungy (this isn't grunge and if it were it wouldn't be good grunge), it's because the songs are mediocre, uninteresting and (as I said before) just bland.
I've really tried but the record didn't grow on me, in fact with every listen I found something more that I didn't like. Sad that this was DeGarmo's last full QR record. I will never understand how a guy that was largely responsible for some of the best music out there could come up with this boring shit. But for me this also shows that apart from Tate nobody in the band wanted to take responsibility. And this led to the coming Tateryche years. But more on that later.
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However, I appreciate your efforts in these write-ups Samsara. No easy task, and based on your analysis of some of the details, I'll try to make an effort to got back and appreciate some of the observations you've made. Thanks. :)
You're welcome. Thanks to you and everyone who has read them and got some value from them. It has been fun, honestly. I was soured on Queensryche for a period, and doing this has really sort of brought to light the good memories of being a fan, as opposed to some of the bad stuff. Nice to listen to the music again and remember it.
As we get into the post-DeGarmo era, I'll be trying to keep things as positive and light as possible. Negative stuff will be covered, but I'm not going to dwell on it. I think it is pretty obvious most fans consider stuff post-PL to be subpar, with moments of greatness, as opposed to great with moments of filler (EP-PL). Pretty much that way for most bands and fanbases. But there's a lot of Rychean Drama coming up, and I'm going to try and focus on the music first and foremost, and bringing out the good in it, as opposed to the negative.
Great effort and write up Brian!
I give this album a courtesy listen once or twice a year just out of respect to the band, but it's still hard to grasp that the same group of men that made the six previous albums, made this one. Its a decent rock album, but nothing more. This is the definition of less is more when it comes to music. Knock 4 songs off this album to 10 and its already better. Not including anything from DTC, "All I Want" is easily my most disliked Queensryche song in their discography. Keep that for a solo album and keep it away from QR. How they thought to include that song would be a good idea is a head scratcher.
But there are some good songs. I really like "You" and I think "Some People Fly" is a great ballad.
Glad you liked the write-up. Yeah, it's a bit of a head-scratcher to a degree. But the one thing in retrospect I see is a natural progression from Chris. HITNF may have been a bit dramatic because of the production, but the songwriting is following an evolutionary path. It's evident from Chris when they get to Tribe with him. It's where his headspace was at as a writer. I think HITNF would have been much more accepted if its production was a lot better. People USUALLY rank DeGarmo's efforts on Tribe (those songs) higher than those on HITNF, and sonically, it's really a pick-up from where they left off, with more involvement from Wilton and Rockenfield.
So, I have a soft spot for HITNF because of that. I really don't think the songs are bad (the few cringe-inducing ones aside), and had there been a larger, better sound, they may have been better. Frankly, I'd love to see Jimbo Barton remix Hear in the Now Frontier, or even Terry Date.
Have to disagree with Samsara in regard to the solos - these stuck to the grunge style, if we have to have one it can't be flashy. Too many dreary, plodding songs.
I hear ya. But I think some of them are overlooked. The two I mentioned -- You and Hero...those are a bit more flashy, particularly the former. But for the most part, I think the solos are understated.
I took a listen to this album for the first time today and wow, it is not good. I really think the mix is terrible on this record. If you gave me this cd and said this is the demo for the upcoming album I'd believe it.
There is nothing wrong with having a strip down sound but this album is tight, but not in a good way. It feels claustrophobic if that makes sense.
As for the songs themselves there are some cool ideas here and there but that's about it.
Really good description. I never put it into that context, but that does hit the nail on the head with the overall sound. Even the atmospheric type songs don't really breathe.
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Sam, great write up. It puts this album in perspective. I can't say all that I want on my phone but my favorite tracks are Hit The Black and Anytime/Anywhere.
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Loved the writeup, Samsara. For the longest time I've avoided this era of QR, now I'm actively looking forward to checking out these albums and getting the historical background.
This is the first album in the discography that I've never listened to before. I am familiar with Chasing Blue Sky though and I really enjoy that song.
My first impression of this album is that it's actually not too bad. It gets kinda same-y toward the end, but I could see myself going back to this album in the future. I'm not a fan of grunge or alt rock at all, so I agree with Bosk that while it captures the attitude of those styles it's definitely something else. The stripped down sound was disappointing at first, especially after two albums that were dripping with great atmosphere, but it fits the material and the songs are good. There are still some cool soundscapes anyway.
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One more thing. All I could do listening to this was: What the FUCK happened to Scott Rockenfield's drumming?!! I mean, what the hell?
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I actually don't find HITNF all that bad, but this is coming from someone who was born around the time PL was released and didn't get into QR until 2 or 3 years ago, so my perspective is obviously different than that of those who were around when the album came out. I think it's easily the best out of the records that were released between PL and the ones with Todd, though of course it doesn't hold a candle to the classics.
What I like about HITNF is that most of the songs have strong hooks and melodies, as well as very solid guitarwork - you can tell DeGarmo's touch was still there, because QR's vocal melodies took a nosedive after he quit and Tate took over. Spool and The Voice Inside are 2 of my all-time favorite QR songs, and Some People Fly, Sign of the Times, You and Reach are all great too. However, Anytime/Anywhere sucks hard, Get a Life has one of the most repulsive excuses for a chorus I've ever heard, I'm a little iffy about Cuckoo's Nest, and while All I Want isn't bad, it doesn't sound like QR at all and should've been a Chris solo tune instead. I have no problem with the rest of the songs, but having 14 on one album is just too much - drop the weak/bad songs and you have a pretty decent record.
I have to agree with those who criticize the production - I've heard a bunch of albums produced or mixed by Toby Wright and they all sound dry and lifeless, so HITNF isn't an exception. I can only imagine how much better it would've sounded with PL-style production. :-\
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One more thing. All I could do listening to this was: What the FUCK happened to Scott Rockenfield's drumming?!! I mean, what the hell?
There are drums on this record, but there's no Scott on this record, if that makes sense. Then again, it could be that Toby Wright's mix sucked all the life out of his performances. I wouldn't trust him to mix a Jack and coke. The coke would end up flat.
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Loved the writeup, Samsara. For the longest time I've avoided this era of QR, now I'm actively looking forward to checking out these albums and getting the historical background.
This is the first album in the discography that I've never listened to before. I am familiar with Chasing Blue Sky though and I really enjoy that song.
My first impression of this album is that it's actually not too bad. It gets kinda same-y toward the end, but I could see myself going back to this album in the future. I'm not a fan of grunge or alt rock at all, so I agree with Bosk that while it captures the attitude of those styles it's definitely something else. The stripped down sound was disappointing at first, especially after two albums that were dripping with great atmosphere, but it fits the material and the songs are good. There are still some cool soundscapes anyway.
Thanks, Mosh! Very cool that you had not heard the record before. A fresh perspective completely. Yeah, the record isn't grunge, but does capture some of the alternative and grunge stylings in a Queensryche way. They succeeded in that goal, just made an error (I think most agree...seems like ?, Cyclopssss and romdrums also chimed in with similar thoughts) with the mix. Had Jimbo Barton done it, and the band trimmed the fat a bit (on the consensus bad songs), I wonder if the record would have resonated better.
I go back to my favorites on HITNF quite regularly. But it's not a record I listen to completely all the way through like I do with the EP-PL. I can get through those (I'm an album guy) like I normally do. But HITNF is a chore. And frankly, that's how Queensryche albums all became for me after (and including) HITNF -- a chore to get through. I like chunks of most of them, but it's not like how it was through PL.
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-All I Want: *snip* To me, Chris captures the eerie sincerely obsessive vibe the lyrics call for. And speaking of the lyrics, as Samsara pointed out, they aren't what they seem. This isn't a standard ballad, but is a creepy anti-ballad about an obsessed lover (perhaps borderline stalker). ...which I personally believe ties directly into the album art. I won't give away my theory. But based on what I've already said, I think it's easy to connect the dots.
You should. You've told it to me, and I do buy into it. I wasn't going to reveal it in the write-up, because you're the only one who has ever said it (to my knowledge), and no one (again, to my knowledge) has asked Chris, so please share!
Okay, it does something like this:
The song is odd. But it is odd in a very specific way, and intentionally so.
The song starts off sounding like a strange, overly sugary ballad. Although they've done that type of song, that alone is still a bit odd for Queensryche. If Queensryche is writing a "love song," there's usually a twist somewhere. This song is no exception. But there is a distinct break right in the middle of the song that is signaled musically and lyrically with a bridge that you might not expect to be right where it is. So let's take a look at the two halves of the song separately and figure out the structure.
The first half of the song is fairly straightforward, lyrically:
You mystify with the things that you say.
You're telling me you're leaving, that you're going away
to take a trip to find, and leave behind the love.
I've got a destination, a suggestion for you.
You won't need a jet plane or a luxury cruise.
Just take a look in my eyes, and realize the love.
I can't live without us,
so I hope that you will
stay with me forever.
It's all I want from you.
the thought of our disintegration is killing me.
I love you.
Okay, so protagonist is in love with his chick, and not afraid to get all syrupy about it. Nothing shocking. Oh, and she's leaving him. Nothing shocking about that either. Many a song/poem/story have been written about that. And if that's where we leave this one, there is nothing special about either the music or lyrics to make this song stand out in the genre. In fact, many would probably say that there is nothing about the lyrics or music to even take it out of the bottom tier of that genre. And that would be fine and valid if that's all we were looking at. But there's more just a bit beneath the surface. And, when you think about it, some of the things the protagonist says about his love and the way he describes here is just a bit...off.
If you take a close look at the lyrics thus far, there's still something a bit off about the story. Nothing big or concrete. But it's just a bit off that although the protagonist's love is leaving him, he seems to think that all will be well if he simply professes his love for her and she simply stays. That's "all [he] want[s]." Is the protagonist stupidly overly naďve, or is there something more to it?
Bridge:
Living blind without you,
Don't wanna try to live without your love.
I feel so lonely now with you gone.
Hmm... This is where the song begins to take a bit of a darker turn, although it still isn't completely obvious. If you've never read the lyrics before or thought about them, it's easy to just take this at face value as someone who is just hurting because his love left him and miss the significance of the second line. And in fairness, without the second half of the song, maybe that middle line doesn't really mean anything. But I think it does. It is the turning point. I think the protagonist literally means he cannot/will not live without his love, and with that, we get a glimpse of someone who does not have the emotional maturity to grasp how to interact appropriately with someone in a relationship. Let's look at the second verse and see whether or not that theory is borne out.
But don't take for granted, your condition of me,
'cause there'll be retribution, the kind you wouldn't believe
Let's get back to living, see what tomorrow brings.
Before glossing over this too quickly, keep in mind that this is the protagonist speaking to his love. This is addressed to her, whether it is a speech, a "love letter," or whatever. The first two lines are a threat. "You WILL stay with me. Or else." That's the message. It's sort of, "I know what's best for this relationship, and you don't, which is why you made this mistake. You WILL stay with me, and then you'll see that I was right all along and this is what's best." That's downright creepy. And it makes the repeat of the chorus, when seen in that context, creepy as well:
Stay with me forever.
It's all I want from you.
And if we stay together,
all our dreams will come true
Stay with me forever.
It's all I want from you.
the thought of our disintegration is killing me.
I love you.
So, for starters, this isn't a standard love song. If it was, it would suck and be a pretty crappy one. But it's a bit more than that. And I'm not arguing that it is the "best thing ever" or anything like that. I'm just saying it's a bit more clever than I think people give it credit for, because it appears to be one thing, but is subtly something different entirely. In many ways, it's a distant cousin of Gonna Get Close To You. And while that song is also often considered a bottom tier song on its respective album, like All I Want, I've come to appreciate it more in realizing what it is and how off-kilter from standard it actually is.
But I also think there's one more layer to be explored. I mentioned a tie-in with the album art. The featured item throughout the album art is a severed ear. Can anyone think of any historical figure with a severed ear? Okay, yes, Malchus comes to mind, but that's not who I was talking about. +1 extra credit point for the Bible students out there that thought of that. But -10 for not paying attention to what I've said so far, because Malchus has nothing to do with the story of these lyrics. I'm of course talking about Van Gogh. There are quite a few versions of the story out there for why Van Gogh cut off his ear. But it is widely accepted that after he did it, he delivered it as a gift to a young lady at a nearby brothel who may or may not have been an employee of said brothel, but whom he had feelings for. His motives for doing so are obscure. But no matter how you slice it (ha!), that is anything but appropriate behavior toward a paramour (or...toward anyone for that matter). In general, as many incidents in his life suggest, Van Gogh was just an odd, disturbed individual, who appears to have been severely emotionally stunted and incapable of grasping how to properly interact with the opposite sex (or...with anyone for that matter).
So I think there's a theme here. I think the album art is an obvious nod to Van Gogh. And I think there is a direct tie-in with All I Want. I'm not saying All I Want is about Van Gogh. I don't think it is. But I am saying that I think there is meant to be a connection, as if Chris wants us to see a parallel/connection between the deeply disturbed and emotionally stunted Van Gogh and the way the protagonist in this song behaves. And if you take a quick peek at the particular photo on the inner page of the album booklet on the page where the lyrics of the song appear, I think it is STONGLY hinted at that there is a connection.
So, that's my take on what the song means and what I believe to be a cool little nugget. Does that make the song or album "great" somehow? Nope. I'm not arguing that. But as I find to be the case with much of this album, although it appears to be simple and straightforward, I think there is actually a fair deal more than what appears to be there for those who take the time to dig a bit beneath the surface.
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I have more to say on this after some commentary from others. But, in the meantime, I thought it appropriate to add that Hugh Syme did the artwork, and this was the cover (and centerpiece of his artwork scheme of the record):
(https://www.hughsyme.com/Images/Gallery/1.Music_Entertainment/Gallery%2016/Images/1a.Ears.jpg)
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-All I Want: *snip* To me, Chris captures the eerie sincerely obsessive vibe the lyrics call for. And speaking of the lyrics, as Samsara pointed out, they aren't what they seem. This isn't a standard ballad, but is a creepy anti-ballad about an obsessed lover (perhaps borderline stalker). ...which I personally believe ties directly into the album art. I won't give away my theory. But based on what I've already said, I think it's easy to connect the dots.
You should. You've told it to me, and I do buy into it. I wasn't going to reveal it in the write-up, because you're the only one who has ever said it (to my knowledge), and no one (again, to my knowledge) has asked Chris, so please share!
Okay, it does something like this:
The song is odd. But it is odd in a very specific way, and intentionally so.
The song starts off sounding like a strange, overly sugary ballad. Although they've done that type of song, that alone is still a bit odd for Queensryche. If Queensryche is writing a "love song," there's usually a twist somewhere. This song is no exception. But there is a distinct break right in the middle of the song that is signaled musically and lyrically with a bridge that you might not expect to be right where it is. So let's take a look at the two halves of the song separately and figure out the structure.
The first half of the song is fairly straightforward, lyrically:
You mystify with the things that you say.
You're telling me you're leaving, that you're going away
to take a trip to find, and leave behind the love.
I've got a destination, a suggestion for you.
You won't need a jet plane or a luxury cruise.
Just take a look in my eyes, and realize the love.
I can't live without us,
so I hope that you will
stay with me forever.
It's all I want from you.
the thought of our disintegration is killing me.
I love you.
Okay, so protagonist is in love with his chick, and not afraid to get all syrupy about it. Nothing shocking. Oh, and she's leaving him. Nothing shocking about that either. Many a song/poem/story have been written about that. And if that's where we leave this one, there is nothing special about either the music or lyrics to make this song stand out in the genre. In fact, many would probably say that there is nothing about the lyrics or music to even take it out of the bottom tier of that genre. And that would be fine and valid if that's all we were looking at. But there's more just a bit beneath the surface. And, when you think about it, some of the things the protagonist says about his love and the way he describes here is just a bit...off.
If you take a close look at the lyrics thus far, there's still something a bit off about the story. Nothing big or concrete. But it's just a bit off that although the protagonist's love is leaving him, he seems to think that all will be well if he simply professes his love for her and she simply stays. That's "all [he] want[s]." Is the protagonist stupidly overly naďve, or is there something more to it?
Bridge:
Living blind without you,
Don't wanna try to live without your love.
I feel so lonely now with you gone.
Hmm... This is where the song begins to take a bit of a darker turn, although it still isn't completely obvious. If you've never read the lyrics before or thought about them, it's easy to just take this at face value as someone who is just hurting because his love left him and miss the significance of the second line. And in fairness, without the second half of the song, maybe that middle line doesn't really mean anything. But I think it does. It is the turning point. I think the protagonist literally means he cannot/will not live without his love, and with that, we get a glimpse of someone who does not have the emotional maturity to grasp how to interact appropriately with someone in a relationship. Let's look at the second verse and see whether or not that theory is borne out.
But don't take for granted, your condition of me,
'cause there'll be retribution, the kind you wouldn't believe
Let's get back to living, see what tomorrow brings.
Before glossing over this too quickly, keep in mind that this is the protagonist speaking to his love. This is addressed to her, whether it is a speech, a "love letter," or whatever. The first two lines are a threat. "You WILL stay with me. Or else." That's the message. It's sort of, "I know what's best for this relationship, and you don't, which is why you made this mistake. You WILL stay with me, and then you'll see that I was right all along and this is what's best." That's downright creepy. And it makes the repeat of the chorus, when seen in that context, creepy as well:
Stay with me forever.
It's all I want from you.
And if we stay together,
all our dreams will come true
Stay with me forever.
It's all I want from you.
the thought of our disintegration is killing me.
I love you.
So, for starters, this isn't a standard love song. If it was, it would suck and be a pretty crappy one. But it's a bit more than that. And I'm not arguing that it is the "best thing ever" or anything like that. I'm just saying it's a bit more clever than I think people give it credit for, because it appears to be one thing, but is subtly something different entirely. In many ways, it's a distant cousin of Gonna Get Close To You. And while that song is also often considered a bottom tier song on its respective album, like All I Want, I've come to appreciate it more in realizing what it is and how off-kilter from standard it actually is.
But I also think there's one more layer to be explored. I mentioned a tie-in with the album art. The featured item throughout the album art is a severed ear. Can anyone think of any historical figure with a severed ear? Okay, yes, Malchus comes to mind, but that's not who I was talking about. +1 extra credit point for the Bible students out there that thought of that. But -10 for not paying attention to what I've said so far, because Malchus has nothing to do with the story of these lyrics. I'm of course talking about Van Gogh. There are quite a few versions of the story out there for why Van Gogh cut off his ear. But it is widely accepted that after he did it, he delivered it as a gift to a young lady at a nearby brothel who may or may not have been an employee of said brothel, but whom he had feelings for. His motives for doing so are obscure. But no matter how you slice it (ha!), that is anything but appropriate behavior toward a paramour (or...toward anyone for that matter). In general, as many incidents in his life suggest, Van Gogh was just an odd, disturbed individual, who appears to have been severely emotionally stunted and incapable of grasping how to properly interact with the opposite sex (or...with anyone for that matter).
So I think there's a theme here. I think the album art is an obvious nod to Van Gogh. And I think there is a direct tie-in with All I Want. I'm not saying All I Want is about Van Gogh. I don't think it is. But I am saying that I think there is meant to be a connection, as if Chris wants us to see a parallel/connection between the deeply disturbed and emotionally stunted Van Gogh and the way the protagonist in this song behaves. And if you take a quick peek at the particular photo on the inner page of the album booklet on the page where the lyrics of the song appear, I think it is STONGLY hinted at that there is a connection.
So, that's my take on what the song means and what I believe to be a cool little nugget. Does that make the song or album "great" somehow? Nope. I'm not arguing that. But as I find to be the case with much of this album, although it appears to be simple and straightforward, I think there is actually a fair deal more than what appears to be there for those who take the time to dig a bit beneath the surface.
Given what you said about van Gogh, is there a further connection:
van Gogh - ear - hearing - sense:sense - blind - vision - eye - protagonist of Chris's song
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Yeah, I can see (ha!) that.
I think there is a broad theme to the album as a whole anyway: dysfunction. And I think All I Want neatly fits that. I don't think it was necessarily intentional when they were writing the album, so I don't think it is a "theme album" per se. But as an after-the-fact (or perhaps, during-the-fact) observation, a lot of the songs deal with dysfunction in different capacities on some level, whether societal (Sign of the Times, Cuckoo's Nest) or personal (All I Want).
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I have an autographed poster of the HITNF artwork, signed by the original band. I've since removed my ticket stubs from the frame and kept it to strictly autographs, with the Q2K era fan club autographs (also pictured) and the 2013 s/t autographed album artwork poster. So I have signatures from 3 of the 4 lineups of the band (missing the Mike Stone era).
I bought the HITNF poster from a local record store that was selling it for $35-$50. Can't remember exactly how much I paid, but I figured it was a good deal.
I like Promised Land's artwork the best, and this one is up there too.
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30875_1477272336510_796388_n.jpg?oh=be52d48c16318695abc44d24ec066c61&oe=59F2F95C)
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That's really cool, Grapp. I'm somewhat envious.
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HINTF epilog: I didn't get to see the tour for this album. I can't remember why, but I think it was just a case of them either not coming near me at a time when I could go, or maybe me just not knowing about the date in advance of it.
The album itself came out during my last year of college at Cal Berkeley. For those that know me, I was just a few years older than most of my college classmates because I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps after high school. It was a good year, but a difficult year for a lot of personal reasons. That summer, I buried my father, and started working a job for a year while my soon-to-be wife and I saved for our wedding and prepared for me going to law school the following year. This was the time the tour was going on, so it is possible I just missed the tour announcements, or that I was too conscious of not spending any more than I had to because of saving up, as I mentioned. I really don't remember. Bottom line, I didn't see this tour.
But the Internet had really been picking up steam during this time, and I remember becoming a regular visitor on Queensryche's website and participating on their discussion forum/chat room during this general timeframe. Some big announcements would soon be posted that sent the fan-base into a major tizzy. But I'll wait until we are officially into that era before saying more...
-
HINTF epilog: I didn't get to see the tour for this album. I can't remember why, but I think it was just a case of them either not coming near me at a time when I could go, or maybe me just not knowing about the date in advance of it.
The album itself came out during my last year of college at Cal Berkeley. For those that know me, I was just a few years older than most of my college classmates because I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps after high school. It was a good year, but a difficult year for a lot of personal reasons. That summer, I buried my father, and started working a job for a year while my soon-to-be wife and I saved for our wedding and prepared for me going to law school the following year. This was the time the tour was going on, so it is possible I just missed the tour announcements, or that I was too conscious of not spending any more than I had to because of saving up, as I mentioned. I really don't remember. Bottom line, I didn't see this tour.
But the Internet had really been picking up steam during this time, and I remember becoming a regular visitor on Queensryche's website and participating on their discussion forum/chat room during this general timeframe. Some big announcements would soon be posted that sent the fan-base into a major tizzy. But I'll wait until we are officially into that era before saying more...
Boy I remember that. The day the picture was revealed...........
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This was asked before but not answered (or I've missed it).
What does the phrase "hear in the now frontier" mean? I understand all the words naturally, but I can't really make sense of it.
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This was asked before but not answered (or I've missed it).
What does the phrase "hear in the now frontier" mean? I understand all the words naturally, but I can't really make sense of it.
I am sure they were asked a bunch of times. There are some article scans here that may contain the answers: https://anybodylistening.net/scrapbook.html#hitnf
I don't really recall what those answers were, but the title always made sense to me. Hear (as in music, related to the ears) in the Now (right now when it was released) Frontier (landscape -- depicted in art, generally accepted as a place of discovery and new beginnings). Given the turn Queensryche made of sorts with the sound of their records, it always just logically made sense to me.
re: All I Want -- I completely buy into bosk1's theory. However, there's some more...personal stuff related to that song. It was rumored, that along with the issues with the band, that Chris' own marriage was starting to show cracks at the time. Allegedly, the toll of the drama with Queensryche, and Chris having to pull it all together all the time was having a negative impact at home, leading his wife to consider leaving him. Again, this is all just rumor -- obviously, Chris never spoke of it. So, it's widely thought that "All I Want," particularly the first verse and last line are an ode to Mrs. DeGarmo, and the song was done...in a Queensryche style warped way so it wasn't straightforward. It's also rumored that the personal reasons Chris wrote it are really why Tate didn't want to sing it -- it was Chris' song, and Chris' to sing. Again, all rumors tied together over the years.
The Tate not wanting to sing it I think stems a bit from "Bridge." Chris wrote that tune and obviously the lyrics and vocal melody, and there's footage of him jamming on it (PL CD Rom Big Log disc, I believe) singing it. I am going to guess that perhaps Tate was reticent to sing that one as well, and was convinced to do it because they knew it would be a single. And, with HITNF a couple years later, perhaps Tate just completely told Chris -- no, this is your tune, for your personal reasons, I'm not singing lead, I'll sing backup and harmony, because it won't be a single, just a deep album cut. Just my own guess work.
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I always thought of the lyrics as being from a domestic violence perpetrator - I will not let you leave me and it will get nasty if you try.
Never thought of the Van Gogh idea. Interesting.
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This was asked before but not answered (or I've missed it).
What does the phrase "hear in the now frontier" mean? I understand all the words naturally, but I can't really make sense of it.
I am sure they were asked a bunch of times. There are some article scans here that may contain the answers: https://anybodylistening.net/scrapbook.html#hitnf
I don't really recall what those answers were, but the title always made sense to me. Hear (as in music, related to the ears) in the Now (right now when it was released) Frontier (landscape -- depicted in art, generally accepted as a place of discovery and new beginnings). Given the turn Queensryche made of sorts with the sound of their records, it always just logically made sense to me.
Thanks, that makes more sense to me. I probably took "frontier" too literally as border (like between two countries).
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I actually loved the band picture in the middle of the booklet. I remember someone here saying they didn't like it but I get so tired of the rock band pose that this was refreshing.
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I enjoy the style they went for with this album and there are some truly catchy, energetic tunes on here (Sign of the times, Cuckoo's nest, You, Get a life), but I also wish it were slightly richer and more ambitious melodically. It could also benefit from some trimming, I'd cut it down to 10 or 11 songs.
The production is also an issue - it's strange that Promised land sounds so modern and edgy, yet they released something so raw and unfinished three years later. The style could use the sound that packs a punch.
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I think people look at this as the demise which is partly true. If they would have continued together people would look at this album differently like when Rush took chances with it's sound.
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I think people look at this as the demise which is partly true. If they would have continued together people would look at this album differently like when Rush took chances with it's sound.
Yeah, but Rush's music still ranged from good to excellent. They never did anything as bad as some of the tripe that QR put out from '96-'12.
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I think people look at this as the demise which is partly true. If they would have continued together people would look at this album differently like when Rush took chances with it's sound.
Yeah, but Rush's music still ranged from good to excellent. They never did anything as bad as some of the tripe that QR put out from '96-'12.
What bands did? :lol :biggrin:
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I wish I had something to say about HINTNF, but really I just listened to it maybe 2 or 3 times and was like "nah, not for me". I don't hate it and don't really like it either. I'm just indifferent.
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I think you misunderstood me Chad.
I'm saying the demise of Queens Reich makes HITNF worse. If they only stayed together tgey would have coneput with something that fans would have liked more than 96-12'.
So that crap they put out made HITNF seem worse.
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I think people look at this as the demise which is partly true. If they would have continued together people would look at this album differently like when Rush took chances with it's sound.
Yeah, but Rush's music still ranged from good to excellent. They never did anything as bad as some of the tripe that QR put out from '96-'12.
Test for Echo. It was released in the same time frame as HitNF as well. I will say that it's nowhere near as bad as what little I've heard of DTC, though.
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TFE isn't bad in any way, and far from 'taking a chance'. To even mention it in the same sentence as DTC is shameful. Go spend 2 minutes in the penalty box. :biggrin:
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TFE isn't bad in any way, and far from 'taking a chance'. To even mention it in the same sentence as DTC is shameful. Go spend 2 minutes in the penalty box. :biggrin:
Oh, it's definitely better than DTC. But, it's not a good Rush album in any way.
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@ Kingshmegland:
WTF is coneput??
;D
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If QR had put down their cones we may not have had to suffer through their post-PL output?
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@ Kingshmegland:
WTF is coneput??
;D
What I'm going to hit you over the head with. :lol
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TFE isn't bad in any way, and far from 'taking a chance'. To even mention it in the same sentence as DTC is shameful. Go spend 2 minutes in the penalty box. :biggrin:
Oh, it's definitely better than DTC. But, it's not a good Rush album in any way.
True. Both albums fit into the " I never need to play them ever again" but DTC was a whole new level of low
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Thankfully I never bought DTC.
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TFE isn't bad in any way, and far from 'taking a chance'. To even mention it in the same sentence as DTC is shameful. Go spend 2 minutes in the penalty box. :biggrin:
Oh, it's definitely better than DTC. But, it's not a good Rush album in any way.
True. Both albums fit into the " I never need to play them ever again" but DTC was a whole new level of low
DTC is the only album post HITNF that I have on CD . My innocent sister gave it to me for Christmas - best beer coaster ever.
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TFE isn't bad in any way, and far from 'taking a chance'. To even mention it in the same sentence as DTC is shameful. Go spend 2 minutes in the penalty box. :biggrin:
Oh, it's definitely better than DTC. But, it's not a good Rush album in any way.
The biggest difference is that....while most consider it to be mid-tier or worse...there are MANY in the Rush fanbase that consider TFE one of their best albums. (I'm one, and I know for a fact that I'm not alone, though I will admit I'm in the minority)
There is not one QR fan alive.....I would bet *not even one* that would consider DTC a "top tier" QR album. (and Geoff Tate doesn't count)
Your argument is completely invalid.
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Maybe 1% do. That's a bold statement jammindude.
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Your argument is completely invalid.
It was a nice discussion until this.
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I'm one the biggest Rush fan here. T4E is not regarded as one of the best.
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I'm one the biggest Rush fan here. T4E is not regarded as one of the best.
I never said that.
while most consider it to be mid-tier or worse...there are MANY in the Rush fanbase that consider TFE one of their best albums.
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I'm saying you are in the minority, 1% is exactly what I said.
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I'm saying you are in the minority, 1% is exactly what I said.
I think you're being extreme. There is as least one other person on this forum who proclaimed it as "awesome" (or another such word) and a handful more who ran to its defense as at least being much better than most people give it credit for. And that is *JUST* on this forum. That's hardly 1%.
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OK enough arguing over T4E - save that for another thread.
Never got to post about HitNF - am on vacation right now, but got the time now. For me, PL was definitely a disappointment when I got it, although over time I came to appreciate it more (tho it still ranked behind RfO, O:M and Empire). But when HitNF came out (which I was excited for), I was absolutely disgusted by the album. I mean I hated it - couldn't stand it. Right off the bat, the mix was all wrong and nothing like the QR I had come to know and love. And then the quality of the songs was a huge nosedive too. One thing that I noticed that I don't like but seems to litter the album quite a bit is the use of slide guitar, starting with Sign of the Times. To this day, I don't see how many people name this as one of the better songs on the album. It's not the worst, but it's close to the bottom, IMO. Then you got the one-two punch of Cuckoo's Nest and Get a Life. Awful. The next 3 are kinda meh - OK but fairly forgettable. First bright spot for me really was You and the next was Reach. Hit the Black is pretty good, and of course spOOL is the only really quality track on the album. After giving the album maybe a second listen, I couldn't stand it any further and didn't even bother trying to listen to it again. Even the album art was a real turn off for me - seeing severed ears in mason jars with an embossed tri-ryche was not what I expected from them and was just plain weird (altho I find Bosk's commentary on All I Want and the potential connection to the artwork interesting).
Surprisingly, I ended up catching 2 shows for that tour (odd considering how much I loathed the album). I'm still not sure what possessed me to do it. In any case, I'm glad I did, because it was only after hearing those songs mixed in with the older catalog that my opinion of them started to improve to varying degrees. The stage was also very weird to me tho, with that inflatable ear and I think there was something else that was also inflated that served as a second video screen. Didn't like the non-symmetrical nature of the stage design at all. The one song disappointment for me from the first show (at Alpine Valley in Wisconsin) was the lack of RfO songs, my favorite album.
I was already a part of the fanclub and was getting copies of the Tri-ryche Times (or whatever the fanzine was called then) and managed to get meet 'n' greet passes for the next day (Tinley Park, outside of Chicago), so I was psyched to meet them despite the disappointing album. We were taken to a patio in the back of the venue where the semi-trucks loaded in the equipment and told to stand at the outer perimeter of the patio, and each of the guys would make their way around to greet us and sign something. Each one came out and the experience really was pretty non-descript, especially in retrospect - just the guys going through the motions from my perspective. Each would sign something (I think we were limited to one autograph, as there was probably 50 people there) and we could ask a question or chat with them for a few seconds before they moved on to the next person. CDG came out last, and he seemed to lag a little behind the other guys but not by much. However, when he got to me (there was probably less than 10 people after me), I started chatting with him about something, probably about the lack of RfO songs in the setlist (and the CD which I brought to have autographed) and writing longer songs in the future. The man then took the time to chat with me and I swear he must have talked with me at least a few minutes - a real conversation with direct eye contact and genuine interest in my viewpoint! It's funny, I remember thinking to myself "what do I talk to him about" because it seemed like our conversation lasted forever, and I was also worried about him not having time to speak with the rest of the fans waiting for him. Nonetheless, it really impressed me on the way he treated me and I will forever be grateful for that memory, even if I don't remember ever detail of what we talked about. It just echoes what Brian had said about his experience and shows what a great person he is.
Interestingly, that night, the band finally busted out Walk in the Shadows - I highly doubt my talking about the lack of RfO in the setlist had any impact on the setlist, but a little part of me can't help but think maybe it did.
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Great story. :tup
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Of course the played Walk In The Shadows because of you.
They don't call you Setlist Scotty for nuthin'. ;)
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Of course the played Walk In The Shadows because of you.
They don't call you Setlist Scotty for nuthin'. ;)
Haha, that's true :tup
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I haven't listened to this album in a long long time and since I didn't discover Queensryche back in the day, when I eventually was getting all their albums I was pretty opened minded with this one. I find it quite enjoyable. There's some definite WTF is this? type moments, but some strong songs on there also.
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At least HITNF sucked on purpose. PL.....
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Of course the played Walk In The Shadows because of you.
They don't call you Setlist Scotty for nuthin'. ;)
Though, it is interesting that his Tinley Park show was the first appearance of a RfO song on that tour. :metal
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CDG came out last, and he seemed to lag a little behind the other guys but not by much. However, when he got to me (there was probably less than 10 people after me), I started chatting with him about something, probably about the lack of RfO songs in the setlist (and the CD which I brought to have autographed) and writing longer songs in the future. The man then took the time to chat with me and I swear he must have talked with me at least a few minutes - a real conversation with direct eye contact and genuine interest in my viewpoint! It's funny, I remember thinking to myself "what do I talk to him about" because it seemed like our conversation lasted forever, and I was also worried about him not having time to speak with the rest of the fans waiting for him. Nonetheless, it really impressed me on the way he treated me and I will forever be grateful for that memory, even if I don't remember ever detail of what we talked about. It just echoes what Brian had said about his experience and shows what a great person he is.
Interestingly, that night, the band finally busted out Walk in the Shadows - I highly doubt my talking about the lack of RfO in the setlist had any impact on the setlist, but a little part of me can't help but think maybe it did.
Ah HA! So you're the reason! :lol Thank the Lord for Setlist Scotty! :tup
Cool story man. Yeah, there is something about Chris where he goes the extra mile for the little details. I miss it in the music, I miss the thoughtful nature of the band in general. The older we get, the more thankful I am that I was able to see Queensryche with him 3x (and had the good fortunate of seeing him perform with Alice in Chains at the Tsunami Benefit show in 2005 -- Chris played lead acoustic guitar on one set, which I thought was odd), and then Jerry Cantrell did lead guitar on the electric set (Chris played both). But that's a story for another time.
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Of course the played Walk In The Shadows because of you.
They don't call you Setlist Scotty for nuthin'. ;)
Though, it is interesting that his Tinley Park show was the first appearance of a RfO song on that tour. :metal
Geoff killed "Walk in the Shadows" on this tour. In fact, he killed every single song! The best he sounded during the 90s if you ask me. His tone had gone back to sounding like a more mature Empire-Geoff (after the raspy Promised Land era), but his high range was the same as it was back in 1988 :metal
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Of course the played Walk In The Shadows because of you.
They don't call you Setlist Scotty for nuthin'. ;)
Though, it is interesting that his Tinley Park show was the first appearance of a RfO song on that tour. :metal
Geoff killed "Walk in the Shadows" on this tour. In fact, he killed every single song! The best he sounded during the 90s if you ask me. His tone had gone back to sounding like a more mature Empire-Geoff (after the raspy Promised Land era), but his high range was the same as it was back in 1988 :metal
Maybe from the rest it got singing the ploddy HitNF era stuff...
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The Geek USA podcast just started a series on Queensryche
https://soundcloud.com/geek-usa/episode38queensrychept1
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^
Listened to various snippets of this. Quite late in, one of them mentions marital problems, and that he 'thinks' DeGarmo was the only one not having problems at the time. Oy. They should have read this thread first.
For good (and bad), I've enjoyed the research and shared memories and song analysis of this LP more than most other LP discussions on DTF. The change in producer/engineer was something I was unaware of. Also gave me a reason to wear my tour tee shirt again (always loved wearing it occasionally at Queen conventions just to eff with people).
I quite like my edited version. A shame that a band so groundbreaking has so much unenjoyable filler though. Bands need to make subtle, and not drastic, changes to remain fresh and not sound stagnant (I guess). Just don't mess with the winning formula too much. At least in the seven year period from 'Empire' to HiTNF, it wasn't the shameful misstep of going from 'Bohemian Rhapsody' and 'A Night at the Opera' to 'Hot Space' with 'Body Language'.
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we actually just posted part 2 of our queensryche cast. thanks for the mention.
https://soundcloud.com/geek-usa/episode39queensrychept2
HITNF is one of those albums that i still dont like very much but dont hate it as much as i did when it came out. i was in my teens and man i HATED it. like i took how bad it was personally.
but i kinda dig how dry it is. sure the tunes are a little hoaky at times but they arent that bad.
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^
(will check it out over the weekend....thanks for the link)
Late '98 / early '99 might have been the best time to release a greatest hits package (certainly would have helped them financially), as it marked the end of an era.
Disc ONE (influenced by the '97 tour, my version to this day)
The Voice Inside / Empire / Anarchy-X / Revolution Calling / Operation: Mindcrime / Jet City Woman / Another Rainy Night / Silent Lucidity 9:28 A.M. (final 15 seconds) / I Am I / Damaged / Out Of Mind / Real World / Sign Of The Times / You / Eyes Of A Stranger / Anybody Listening?
Disc TWO (for the headbangers and those who like extra/'new' tracks included)
Warning / The Lady Wore Black / Take Hold Of The Flame / Walk In The Shadows / I Dream In Infrared / London / Road To Madness /
The Mission / I Don't Believe In Love / Best I Can / The Killing Words (MTV) / Chasing Blue Sky / Someone Else (extended version) /
My Empty Room (live) / Eyes Of A Stranger (live)
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Late '98 / early '99 might have been the best time to release a greatest hits package (certainly would have helped them financially), as it marked the end of an era.
Actually, you aren't too far off. They did release a greatest hits album in mid-2000. And I think, for a hits package, the track list is pretty solid:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_Hits_(Queensr%C3%BFche_album)
1. Queen of the Reich
2. The Lady Wore Black
3. Warning
4. Take Hold of the Flame
5. Walk in the Shadows
6. I Dream in Infrared
7. I Don't Believe in Love
8. Eyes of a Stranger
9. Jet City Woman
10. Empire
11. Silent Lucidity
12. I Am I
13. Bridge
14. Sign of the Times
15. Chasing Blue Sky (bonus track)
16. Someone Else? (full band version, bonus track)
The hits are all there (minus maybe Another Rainy Night), plus a pretty good sampling of their older material for those who may have jumped on the train late. And they acknowledged that two latter albums of that era (PL and HITNF), while not harping on them. And the two bonus tracks are a really nice addition for those who may not have been able to have obtained them previously.
Subjective tastes about what a particular fan might like to include if the track list was up to that person individually, it's really a pretty solid collection.
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^
Agreed.
Hits packages for most bands are hit or miss, especially when they don't include many of the 'best' songs (which, of course, is all subjective). Timing is another. Releasing their Greatest Hits after the HiTNF follow up didn't help matters for many reasons. #149 as the high mark on Billboard attests to that.
A Christmas present I recorded for myself but gave to the ex......the cassettes I made for us both removed a couple of the more metal tracks (once again, personal preference), and certainly included 'Another Rainy Night' and 'Real World' ......two HUGE omissions. Also, the Pavlovian in me needs that song that follows 'I Am I', otherwise my brain is a tad damaged. ;)
Sadly, unlike the previous four studio albums, I made a GH after 'Front Ear' because, even in a version that at the time, I only used nine tracks, was about five tracks too many to listen to on a regular basis.
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I don't want to get too deep into this, since we technically aren't there yet in the timeline, and this is a timeline-oriented thread. But as to this point:
... 'Another Rainy Night' and 'Real World' ......two HUGE omissions. Also, the Pavlovian in me needs that song that follows 'I Am I', otherwise my brain is a tad damaged. ;)
Yeah, I just chalk it up to, you can't include EVERYTHING. 2-disk hits packages are pretty rare, even nowadays (QR's own 2-disk set a bit down the road notwithstanding). With the state of their label issues at the time and where music was headed in the late '90s, I think doing a 2-disk set isn't realistic. So you have to pick and choose what to include when you have a discography as deep as this band did back then. I mean, they weren't a band that decided to do a hits package after only 3 albums. I mean, they had 7 studio albums at the time counting the EP (and not counting Q2K, since it probably wasn't out at the time the label was compiling the tracks for this collection, and the label probably didn't have the rights to the Q2K material anyway). If you try to do a fair representation of the entire discography, it gets difficult. Up to Empire, they did 2 tracks per album. That's pretty good representation. They went with 3 of the 5 singles from Empire, and chose the 3 biggest. I can't fault them for that. I get that there is a good argument for having it on there. But I can't fault the label at all for leaving it off.
As for leaving off Real World, I never really considered that a misstep either. 2 "bonus" tracks is pretty good. And they went with relative rarities, so I'm fine with them leaving off the more recent and more-readily available song. That Last Action Hero soundtrack was a bit of an oddity anyway with regard to availability. Most soundtracks are pretty rare and released in very limited numbers. The Last Action Hero soundtrack seems to have been out there in much bigger quantity, and thus much easier to obtain. That and the soundtrack for Singles stick out in my mind as soundtracks that really had their own legs and sold well as albums in their own right. So I guess what I am trying to say is, for non-album tracks, Real World was much easier to obtain than the much rarer B-side and import bonus track they gave us, so I think those were great inclusions over Real World.
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Anyway - what the weird and quirky title was supposed to mean?
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I was going to edit my reply, but Bosk already replied to it, so.....'Two Miles High' would have been another good addition.
Hits packages would be good for an entire separate thread (my three Queen versions follow the basic formula, but are so 'different' and expanded from the official releases....which also had different track listings for the first Hits in different countries......but, I digress)
I was on the 'more personal' preferences regarding ARN and Real World. It would have been nice to have a 'Real World' version that was the same volume and somewhat close mix as all the rest of Qryche's hits. But, those were huge hits. 'Real World' reached #3, 'Another Rainy Night' reached #7. There were tons of 'metalheads' that are fans, as well as some of us older farts, and women (my ex and current of 15 years), who liked the more melodic (yet heavy) side of the band. As well as the image.
An option of buying Hits 1, Hits 2, or both as a package 'could' have worked well for the band (Queen did it the right way with a Hollywood Records version(s) in the 90s). Fanatics would buy them all (my wife and I included). The general public would look at the cost, the deal, and the product. It's all hindsight now as to Qryche. The band's record company problems obviously had a huge impact on them (understated).
Totally agree on what you said. Would be easier to sit at a bar and discuss all the variances and problems and possibilities, as well as how to do time travel to assist in some needed changes....................
Addendum: wish they'd have released a full concert CD/video after this tour (or for PL). I bought a few somewhat crappy bootleg DVDs of this (and prior) tour(s) back in the day. ytube over the years has certainly helped, but it would have been nice to have a good sounding (and visual) version of this tour available.
Oh, and as to the Hits 1, 2, or package of both of tracks I listed.......back in the day, I would have bought them all. Some for bonuses, as well as to have tracks such as 'Warning', 'The Lady Wore Black', 'London', 'Road To Madness',.....that I had to borrow my friend's CDs at various times for various reasons.
...and....this is a discussion forum. What would everyone suggest as to 'hits' packages at this time? I thought my listings were pretty inclusive and all encompassing for the most part.
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Just a quick update:
I'm going to cover the period of 1998-2001 in two separate entries, as opposed to one. The first will be Jan. 1998 through Q2k (and its support tour, which finished approximately June 2000). The next period will be Aug. 2000-Nov. 2001, which encapsulates the band's first Greatest Hits album and the Live Evolution release.
The Jan. 1998-June. 2000 period works because we'll talk about the recruitment of Kelly Gray, the band members' pursuit of other projects, and then finally the creation and promotion of Q2k. The Aug. 2000-Nov. 2001 period will be notable for the band's tours to support both The Greatest Hits album and then Live Evolution, before another key point in the band's history.
More next week. Have a nice weekend.
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:tup
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Just a quick update:
I'm going to cover the period of 1998-2001 in two separate entries, as opposed to one. The first will be Jan. 1998 through Q2k (and its support tour, which finished approximately June 2000). The next period will be Aug. 2000-Nov. 2001, which encapsulates the band's first Greatest Hits album and the Live Evolution release.
The Jan. 1998-June. 2000 period works because we'll talk about the recruitment of Kelly Gray, the band members' pursuit of other projects, and then finally the creation and promotion of Q2k. The Aug. 2000-Nov. 2001 period will be notable for the band's tours to support both The Greatest Hits album and then Live Evolution, before another key point in the band's history.
More next week. Have a nice weekend.
Didn't think the band had any more key points! ;D
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Just a quick update:
I'm going to cover the period of 1998-2001 in two separate entries, as opposed to one. The first will be Jan. 1998 through Q2k (and its support tour, which finished approximately June 2000). The next period will be Aug. 2000-Nov. 2001, which encapsulates the band's first Greatest Hits album and the Live Evolution release.
The Jan. 1998-June. 2000 period works because we'll talk about the recruitment of Kelly Gray, the band members' pursuit of other projects, and then finally the creation and promotion of Q2k. The Aug. 2000-Nov. 2001 period will be notable for the band's tours to support both The Greatest Hits album and then Live Evolution, before another key point in the band's history.
More next week. Have a nice weekend.
Didn't think the band had any more key points! ;D
:rollin There are a few more. Q2k had just as many good moments as HITNF, then there's still Tribe, after that yeah, ya could pretty much jump to 2013, I'm sure that will pretty much be the sentiment regarding everything else in between.
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I've been listening to the next two in preparation - well, I tried. Had to turn off Tribe after three songs because it was so awful, but we'll get to that. :lol
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I've been listening to the next two in preparation - well, I tried. Had to turn off Tribe after three songs because it was so awful, but we'll get to that. :lol
Won't get ahead of things either but very brielfy, I remember back in the day thinking that Tribe was quite okay-ish, a very minor return to form, I'll have to see how the consensus on that album will be :D
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There are plenty of noteworthy points throughout the rest of the discography (including D2C). Lets not be so negative. The point of this is to cover the history, but also re-expose (or expose for those who skipped it) people to good music that may have been overlooked.
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There are plenty of noteworthy points throughout the rest of the discography (including D2C). Lets not be so negative. The point of this is to cover the history, but also re-expose (or expose for those who skipped it) people to good music that may have been overlooked.
I'm just joshing. :)
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One last note on HITNF for me: I think I mentioned that this album came out my senior year of college. It was really a great time in a lot of ways. I had gotten free of a really bad relationship that would have ruined me if it continued, and felt truly liberated. I had reunited with the girl who would become my wife. I was getting ready to graduate. Lots of positives. ...and some real hardships as well, dealing with my dad's cancer. Bottom line, it was a time of emotion, both positive and negative. And because of that, it is a time that I look back on with great nostalgia. The music of Queensryche, and this album specifically, was background at the time, and I have a deep emotional connection with the album because of that.
Also, during this time, I was not really connected with many Queensryche "fans" at all, so I didn't really know what the general response to the album was. As far as I knew, people generally liked it just fine, for the most part. I know I did. And me playing that album turned a friend of mine onto the band as well. She wasn't really into metal at all, but she connected with this album.
The music scene had also REALLY begun to shift by this point. Grunge was beginning to fade, other than the bands that had made it big, and alternative rock and nu metal were where rock was at. This meant that most of the '80s hard rock bands I had grown up with had broken up or were on indefinite hiatus at this point. I had found some other music I liked, and the '90s were the time I started finally exploring thrash, so it was fine. But music was changing. And because of what was available to listen to, my tastes were starting to change a bit as well as I adapted to what was out there. This will be key when we get to Q2K for me. It wasn't really until just before Q2K came out that I started connecting with folks in law school who had known the band and jumped ship because they didn't like HITNF at all. But more on that in a bit...
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I'm very open minded to the next few albums - I'm sure there will be some good tracks to rock out to. :metal
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Unfortunately, I'm not... though it's not all awful.
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I'm very open minded to the next few albums - I'm sure there will be some good tracks to rock out to. :metal
This. I don't go into music wanting to hate it and hope for some gems in the coming albums.
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1998 Transition and Q2k (1999)
The departure of Queensr˙che guitarist and chief songwriter Chris DeGarmo was a significant blow to the band in late 1997. Having relied on DeGarmo to guide the creative aspect of Queensr˙che since the band's inception, it came as a surprise to many fans when Queensr˙che announced its decision to carry on without him. For months, two questions reverberated throughout the band's fanbase – "how and with whom?" Initially, rumor spread that the band had discussed adding a keyboard player to its ranks, leaving Michael Wilton as the sole guitarist. Another hot stove discussion had Queensr˙che becoming a four-piece band, re-arranging songs when needed to accommodate the lineup change.
All the while, Tate was testing the waters outside of Queensryche, most notably with Journey. Tate auditioned for the band and wrote demos with Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain. The sessions spurred three songs, one of which had a title: “Walking Away from the Edge.” The songs would ultimately be completely re-written and appear on Journey's Red 13 EP with singer Steve Augeri. But Augeri was extremely complimentary of Tate. Check out some of the fan chatter from 10 years ago when the topic surfaced at MelodicRock.com:
https://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=29644
Note: There are a couple different articles on the Internet that speak briefly of Tate's audition, including one with Ross Valory, who confirmed the audition, and complimented Tate on his voice, but he simply wasn't the right fit for the band.
Tate obviously did not get the gig, and returned to focusing primarily on Queensryche. Throughout the year, Queensryche.com started posting pictures of an unnamed guitarist, blocking out his face. Tons of names were thrown out there. In the end, however, Queensr˙che reached into the past, emerging with fellow Seattle native Kelly Gray. Gray, the former guitarist of MYTH (a band that vocalist Geoff Tate fronted prior to joining Queensr˙che) was now a successful record producer and ironically, had been slated to produce the next Queensr˙che album (according to Gray) prior to DeGarmo's departure.
At Tate's urging, Kelly sat down for a jam session with Michael Wilton, and the duo wrote the music to "Right Side of My Mind" on the spot – a clear sign to the band that they had found the right man to follow DeGarmo. To gauge fan opinion, Queensr˙che staged two fan events – "Seattle '98" and "Seattle '99" – the latter of which included a live performance that was well received by fan club members who were able to attend. It was held on Jan. 16, 1999, at NAF Studios in Seattle.
Check out the setlist and some of my personal photos of the gig here: https://anybodylistening.net/1-16-99.html
Of note are a couple of new songs that were played: "One," "Breakdown Room," "Right Side," "Sacred Ground," and "Burning Man." All of those would appear on Queensryche's forthcoming record, Q2k. As you probably noted, the first three on that list were re-titled prior to the record being released eight months later. A few days prior to the show, Seattle's rock station, KISW, hosted the band and debuted three new demo versions of songs: "Breakdown Room," "Liquid Sky" and "Sacred Ground."
Of all the new songs named above, only "Breakdown Room" was significantly altered from demo to finished track. The demo featured Tate screaming "Breakdown" much more harshly throughout the tune, and had a slightly different arrangement.
Gray's combination of guitar playing and songwriting, knowledge of record production, and connections at major record labels (Queensr˙che had finished up a seven-album deal with EMI before the label folded in 1997) was exactly what the band needed at the time. Essentially, Kelly's involvement resurrected Queensr˙che at a time when the remaining members of the band could have moved on to other things (like Tate's aforementioned audition with Journey).
Seattlites and northwest metal fans who remembered Gray as a guitar player in the early 1980s recalled how he was very influenced by Richie Blackmore of Deep Purple, and was able to shred with the best. However, over time, Kelly's guitar playing and songwriting styles shifted. Taking a much different approach to music than DeGarmo, Kelly focused more on rhythm and groove than the intricate guitar solos and time changes Queensr˙che was known for. The change was a drastic departure for the band, but one that ultimately got them signed to Atlantic Records. For the first time in years, the entire band sat in the studio together and wrote as a unit with Gray taking over DeGarmo's role, reviving the band members' confidence and revitalizing their desire to play music.
Q2k
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/20/Queensryche_-_Q2K_cover.jpg/220px-Queensryche_-_Q2K_cover.jpg)
Lead vocals: Geoff Tate
Rhythm & lead guitar, background vocals: Kelly Gray
Rhythm & lead guitar: Michael Wilton
Bass & background vocals: Eddie Jackson
Drums & percussion: Scott Rockenfield
(https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/q2kbandpromo.jpg)
Produced by Queensryche (Kelly Gray)
Engineered by Kelly Gray
Mixed by Jon Plum at London Bridge Studios (Redmond, Wash.)
With a new record deal, renewed chemistry and an album the band members believed in, Queensr˙che was reborn. The band released Q2k on Sept. 14, 1999, with "Breakdown" as the lead single sent to radio. Initially pushed hard by reps from Atlantic Records, the song appeared on modern rock stations nationwide, but was quickly dropped from rotation.
Fans, even hardcore ones, were equally as brutal in their regard for Q2k. Many deadpanned it the moment it was released, and were unrelenting in the criticism online of Kelly Gray, often referring to him as a “Klingon” in reference to both his hair and his more brutish style of playing. That angst was no doubt partially an outburst from those upset with DeGarmo leaving, but it had a much bigger impact on Q2k's sales and reception than the band probably thought it would.
Despite the criticism, Q2k has its finer moments. The opening cut, “Falling Down,” features a trade-off guitar solo between Wilton and Gray. The song is mid-tempo, but has a solid groove (the entire album does). What's striking is the increased reliance more on the rhythm section than the guitar. (Think the verses of “Best I Can.”) The song ended up being one of Q2k's singles.
“Sacred Ground” was never a single, but musically, one of the record's more striking tracks. Unfortunately, Tate's lyrics mar this a bit. There's no getting around it – the song is quite clearly about him and his wife, Susan. The line “when I'm inside you, it brings me to sacred ground” is pretty clear. Yes, you could make an argument that the lyrics are meant to be interpreted differently, but the fact is, at least in most fans' opinions, they weren't. They were taken just as you probably imagine taking them. It made the song more of a joke than something to be respected, which, on a personal note, sucked, because the music was good.
“Right Side of My Mind” is probably the most respected and liked track on the album. Like “Falling Down,” it also features a trade-off guitar solo, but has a much more epic vibe than Q2k's opener. It was a single and had an animated video that was debuted on VH-1 Classic in 2000. That video was done by Rory Berger, who also ran lighting for Queensryche on the road at times.
“Liquid Sky” is another high point for Q2k. With a great drum groove and killer guitar riff, it quickly became a fan favorite live. “When the Rain Comes...,” a bluesier/epic ballad, the tune struck an emotional chord with fans as well. It features a classic Wilton guitar solo, and was one of Tate's favorites from the record (he posted on the band's website once he finished laying the vocals down for it).
The rest of Q2k is more or less a story of “what if” moments. “Burning Man” starts off with an aggressive beat and guitar lick, but quickly becomes lyrically repetitive and goes nowhere, despite its promise. The band was high on the tune, using it to close out shows throughout the Q2k tour, encouraging fans to sing along with the simple chorus. Songs such as "Wot Kinda Man" and “One Life” really don't go anywhere either, and overall, the album was a bit too mid-tempo and flat/uninteresting for most fans' tastes.
There were a number of leftover tracks that didn't make Q2k's initial pressing. According to Kelly Gray, those songs were “Discipline,” “Monologue,” “I Howl,” and “'Til There Was You.” Gray told me in an interview in 2001 that “Discipline” “could probably be resurrected,” and was a more typical “Queensryche-like” track. He called “Monologue” a “punk-ish tune” that Eddie Jackson wrote. Two of those four tracks were included on an expanded edition of Q2k through Rhino Records in 2006. “I Howl” became “Howl,” and “Til There Was You” was re-titled “Until There Was You.” The re-issue also contained a radio edit of “Breakdown” and a live version of “Sacred Ground.”
"Until There Was You" was a sappy ballad (which he's said was devoted to his wife) that Tate played at various solo shows in 2001. We'll get to the solo tour he took later. "Howl," however, was a bit more aggressive, featuring some higher pitched Tate vocals, a nice guitar riff, and as with many Q2k cuts, a great groove. “Howl” is worth seeking out, if you haven't heard it. In fact, personally, it is my favorite tune from the Q2k era. It was never played live.
In terms of songwriting, the songs on Q2k were credited to the entire band, although Gray clearly shouldered a heavy load and stepped right into DeGarmo's shoes. In the aforementioned interview I did with Kelly Gray in June 2001, he also went a little more detailed on the co-writes. The following are from memory, but from what I recall, are accurate (credits in alphabetical order):
1. Falling Down (Gray/Tate/Wilton)
2. Sacred Ground (Gray/Rockenfield/Tate)
3. One Life (Gray/Tate)
4. When the Rain Comes... (Tate/Wilton)
5. How Could I? (Gray/Tate)
6. Beside You (Gray/Tate)
7. Liquid Sky (Gray/Rockenfield/Tate)
8. Breakdown (Gray/Jackson/Tate/Wilton)*
9. Burning Man (Gray/Rockenfield/Tate)*
10. Wot Kinda Man (Gray/Tate)
11. Right Side of My Mind (Gray/Tate/Wilton)
* - these are the two I am unsure about. Gray and Tate are correct, but Jackson WAS a co-writer on one of them, I just forget which. I'm pretty sure I have it correct, and it is "Breakdown."
12. Until There Was You (Gray/Tate)
13. Howl (unknown – although it's a sure bet it's Gray/Tate, although Eddie's bass playing is prominently featured, so I assume he also had a hand in writing it. The solo is clearly Kelly Gray).
Lyrics/Melodies
One of the key elements of Queensryche's music had always been the challenging vocal melodies and engaging lyrics the band presented. DeGarmo, as most hardcores know, but many fans probably have no idea, helped shape Tate's vocal melodies over the years. Even on the songs where Tate was credited with writing the lyrics, he worked with DeGarmo on the vocal melodies extensively.
So, Q2k was Tate's first record without DeGarmo's influence in that department and it showed. The vocal melodies weren't bad, but they weren't all that memorable either. They were safer, simpler, and less interesting. In fairness, vocal melody complexity had started to shift as far back as Promised Land, where Tate opted for a simpler delivery. However, when DeGarmo left, the vocal melodies took a big nose dive in terms of quality.
The same was true with the lyrics. Quite simply, the lyrics to Q2k were...a far cry from the social commentary and thought-provoking records of Queensryche's past. Even the heavily-criticized Hear in the Now Frontier, while spotty, had a number of great lyrical moments on it. Q2k, however, spent a lot of time on relationships. TOO much time in this writer's opinion. From the cringe-worthy "Sacred Ground" to "How Could I?" there was nothing very thought-provoking. Even the songs not about personal relationships, such as "Falling Down" and "Liquid Sky," really didn't jump out and engage the listener lyrically.
Lyrics are often overlooked, but like the vocal melodies, they were integral to Queensryche's unique sound. And Q2k, with Tate assuming responsibility for both areas, unfortunately, fell flat in that regard. It exposed a significant weakness in the band's songwriting capabilities that suffered on subsequent records, except in certain situations such as Tribe (we'll get to that later).
Note on production: Behind the glass, there isn't much to say regarding Q2k's production. It was muddy, plain and simple. However, it was less dry than Hear in the Now Frontier. The sound is typical of a Kelly Gray-produced album, and frankly, generally what bands were doing in the mid-late 1990s. Some people liked it, some didn't. It certainly fit Kelly Gray's rawer style, but didn't do Wilton any favors. Jon Plum mixed the album, who handled many mixes of records done at London Bridge Studios in Redmond, Wash., where Kelly does a lot of work. While the record says produced by Queensryche, Kelly Gray spearheaded the engineering and production duties.
CD Singles
(https://rycheitems.com/cdspbdisb.jpg) (https://rycheitems.com/cdspfdb.jpg) (https://rycheitems.com/cdsprsb.jpg) (https://rycheitems.com/cdspbyb.jpg)
Touring
The Electric Shockwaves Tour (the name taken from a line in “Liquid Sky”) in support of Q2k began in October 1999 in Boise, Idaho, and ran through June 2000. Queensryche played all over the United States and Europe, with a variety of bands in support, including doubleDrive, Caroline's Spine, Project 86, Jesse James Dupree, and The Tea Party.
The tour relied heavily on tracks from Q2k and Operation: Mindcrime, along with a smattering of songs from Empire, Hear in the Now Frontier, and other albums. Queensryche also featured a couple of covers in the setlist, including “Bullet the Blue Sky” from U2, and “Join Together” by The Who (European shows). While Gray had sounded very good in the fan club show of 2001, it didn't dawn on people (at least on me) that they were playing songs then that relied heavily on Wilton's lead work. Once on tour for Q2k, Gray's renditions of DeGarmo's parts were...different, to say the least. Most notable was "Jet City Woman" which was slightly re-arranged, with the lead guitar parts altered significantly. The drastic shift in style from DeGarmo's clean, crisp, melodic playing, to Gray's more wah-reliant sound was, frankly, shocking, and a major turn-off to many fans.
Queensryche played indoor theaters and a few small amphitheaters in the U.S. on the Q2k tour, with a minimalist stage set up of two large tri-ryches hanging behind the band. The eight-month trek had a couple of breaks worked in, but for the most part, they heavily toured the record.
Touring heavily usually wasn't difficult for Queensryche. But things changed a bit with Kelly Gray. Fan reaction to Gray's playing style turned sour, and unknown at the time to fans, according to Geoff Tate in the liner notes of the 2006 re-release of Q2k, Kelly led a much different life on the road than the rest of the band. Said Tate:
"We were in a brand-new world, Kelly's world … Kelly lived hard and fast, and the people around him were the same. I have personally never seen as many drugs and as much alcohol consumed as when Kelly was in the band …The toll of indulgence was heavy. The band wasn't speaking, the new manager was fired, we were looking for a new record company, and three of our friends were dead. Road life is tough. It's not for everyone, and some people can't pace themselves, and then they get into trouble."
For reference, here was Queensryche full set of tunes for the first leg of the Q2k tour. (Wot Kinda Man would only be played sporadically, and the band would add cuts such as Walk in the Shadows, and the abridged version of NM 156 that had the shortened solo on later legs.) www.anybodylistening.net/10-30-99.html
Revolution Calling
Speak
Falling Down
Damaged
Empire
Liquid Sky
Spreading The Disease/ Electric Requiem
The Right Side Of My Mind
When The Rain Comes
Breaking The Silence
I Don't Believe In Love
Jet City Woman
Reach
Hit The Black
Wot Kinda Man
Sacred Ground
One Life
Breakdown
Bullet The Blue Sky (U2)
The Needle Lies
Eyes Of A Stranger
Silent Lucidity
I forgot to note -- the intro to "Revolution Calling" was NOT "Anarchy-X." The band worked up a basic instrumental intro that built up to the song.
Queensryche was off the road for a couple of months after concluding dates in support of Q2k, but would hit the road again in August 2000 as direct support to one of heavy metal's iconic acts.
Samsara's top-3 from Q2k: Howl, When the Rain Comes..., Liquid Sky
Next up: 2000-2001 (Greatest Hits & Live Evolution)
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I really enjoy Right Side of My Mind and Liquid Sky. Breakdown is alright as well, but the rest of Q2K is a chore to sit through and very little of any interest to me. The songs seem to come alive a bit more on Live Evolution.
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I really enjoy Right Side of My Mind and Liquid Sky. Breakdown is alright as well, but the rest of Q2K is a chore to sit through and very little of any interest to me. The songs seem to come alive a bit more on Live Evolution.
pretty much my thoughts as well.
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It took me a full year after its release before I managed to find some value in Q2k whilst on a QR binge, and that value is in the songs "When The Rain Comes", and "Right Side Of My Mind". Oh, and I guess the first minute or so of Burning Man is pretty good, but then it rather rambles on without going anywhere.
The album sounded poor; I disliked the guitar tones; the vocal harmonies all sounded a bit odd and the vocal melodies were lacking something, in general. This wasn't 'my' Queensryche at all.
Also, I remember the Kelly Gray announcement in Kerrang! and being baffled by the choice and why Tate thought people would have a clue who this hitherto unknown guitarist was. I guess people who knew Tate's own pre-QR history with Myth would've known, but it seemed to me a very strange and unambitious choice.
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From HITNF and onward, it's more interesting reading these little write-ups about the records than listening to the actual records themselves. Or at least until this thread gets to the Todd La Torre era. Revisiting the band's catalogue from 1997 to 2011 in an attempt at finding some "hidden gems" garners no additional results from me. There's just not much good to listen to in there.
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This was a really interesting time. As mentioned above, I really enjoyed HITNF. And I wasn't really aware that so many people panned it until much later.
This was also the time when the Internet had really been catching on for a few years now and become a widely-used resource. So, as with a lot of bands, Queensryche had a website, which I checked periodically to get updates. I remember being shocked when it was announced that Chris left. And then...
Throughout the year, Queensryche.com started posting pictures of an unnamed guitarist, blocking out his face. Tons of names were thrown out there. In the end, however, Queensr˙che reached into the past, emerging with fellow Seattle native Kelly Gray.
Yeah, I remember the shot of him in the studio playing a strat with his head down and hair obscuring his face. The announcement that went along with it was cryptic, but gave a sense that the band were thrilled with the replacement, and that he was a seasoned vet that the fans would love as well. I don't remember the specifics, but it was enough to put my mind relatively at ease.
Then I think it was April 1999 when they posted a fake April Fools announcement that Eddie Jackson was also leaving the band as well. At first, it wasn't really clear that it was an April Fools gag, and I was truly alarmed about the future of the band. But as I read on and it talked about him having to tackle his "true calling" of dealing with the impending fallout of Y2K, it became clear that it was just Eddie being Eddie.
I remember when the album dropped. Queensryche were my favorite band, and I was definitely going to pick it up on release day. I was in law school at the time, and I remember me and a friend driving to Tower Records in Malibu to pick this up. The ride back to campus was short, and I had to get to class, so I didn't get more than a few songs in. But I remember hearing the opening groove and riffs of Falling Down and saying something along the lines of, "Okay, I really like what I'm hearing so far." Sacred Ground also had a lot of groove and was pretty catchy, so that one was an early favorite (although the lyrics soured me on it fairly quickly).
I listened to the album quite a bit over the ensuing months. I liked it. But I didn't love it. And over time, I really lost interest and felt that there just wasn't enough substance there to keep me hooked. Falling Down was okay. Right Side of My Mind was pretty good. After seeing them live (although I missed the proper tour and was bummed that I didn't get to hear my still-favorite band covering my favorite U2 song, Bullet the Blue Sky), I gained an appreciation for Breakdown, Liquid Sky, and even the fairly simple Burning Man. To this day, I still think those are "pretty good" songs. But overall, this album was a BIG step down from anything the band had ever done, and I was fairly disappointed. But this was still a band I held in high regard. But there were two big events that occurred within a short period of time that slightly shifted my musical outlook: Queensryche released Q2K and Dream Theater released Scenes From a Memory.
I had been a casual DT fan since the time I heard Pull Me Under on radio in 1992 and bought I&W. I liked the album, but never really "got" it as I should have. But it was an album I consistently came back to every so often, and was still listening to regularly during this time. I heard some other things from them through the years, but hadn't bought any of their other albums. Still, on the strength of I&W alone, I was still listening these years later. I remember browsing through the CD racks at Tower in Woodland Hills one day after classes in either very late '99 or early '00 and seeing "Metrolopis Pt. 2" when I decided to check the "Dream Theater" section and see what those guys were up to. My eyes just about bugged out of my head and I practically ran to the register to buy it on sight. I popped it into the CD player and it was an instant game changer. On the strength of that album, and the comparative weakness of Q2K, Dream Theater instantly supplanted Queensryche as my new "favorite band." This is fairly significant, as I've only REALLY had three ultimate "favorite bands" in my lifetime. From the moment I heard Pyromania, my first was Def Leppard. That continued through the Hysteria cycle and until probably through Desert Storm when Queensryche took over that mantle on the strength of Empire. From SFAM to the present, it has been DT.
But back at this time, in the 2000 or so range, I still really liked Queensryche and was hopeful they would course-correct with the next album. Man, how cool would it be if someday, my two favorite bands could tour together? That would be AMAZING! Yeah...
Anyhow, if I were to do an "ultimate" QR play list, I'm not sure anything from Q2K would make the cut (unless I were deliberately trying to include something from every album). That said, the 5 songs I listed above aren't bad, and I enjoy them well enough on the rare occasions that I revisit the album. One Life is decent as well. I hate to say this about any album from any band, but frankly, the rest of the album is entirely forgettable and bores me to the point that I can't even remember any of the other song titles or how they go. That said, I did also buy the 2006 re-issue with bonus tracks. The quote about Kelly at the end of Samsara's post is from the detailed liner notes. They are worth a read. As for the bonus tracks, they didn't really do anything for me. Until There Was You...bleh! And I am apparently in the minority that isn't moved in the slightest by Howl. For awhile, whenever Samsara would mention his high regard for that song, I would go back and revisit it to try to figure out what I was missing. I eventually gave up.
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Many tunes have promise, start to go somewhere, and then never quite 'get there'. With a bit of personal pruning...
Falling Down / Sacred Ground / One Life / When The Rain Comes... / Beside You
SIDE TWO
Open * (yes, I know.....) / Howl / Liquid Sky / Breakdown / The Right Side Of My Mind
still gets a handful of plays a year on the way home from work. Some tracks would have fit quite easily on PL. Rhythm section sounded so much better than Front Ear, and the BVs were more prominent. I don't hold the angst towards this as others, but I did not see them tour as I had after the three previous ones.
I didn't know 95% of the background regarding this era until today. Superb work again !
(additional: just read Bosk's comments. My Qryche/DT switch came after the next studio album, but that's for later)
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I'll also add: My reaction on listening through the entire album a couple of times was along the lines of, "I really like U2. But we already have that band. We don't need Queensryche to try to be an uninteresting version of them." I think that still kinda holds up.
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My personal recollections on this period were mostly positive. Fresh off meeting the band twice and seeing them twice on the HITNF tour, I remember being crushed by the news. I was in college at the time, and I remember seeing the notice on Queensryche.com that Chris had left. I remember trying to put a positive spin on it, saying how someone new could really get them back on a heavier direction.
At the time, I really didn't have a full grasp of DeGarmo's impact on the band -- how he was responsible for a lot of what we loved, and how vital he was to the band. So, I pretty much took the news as a way for Queensryche to push forward and embraced the change. All throughout 1998, myself and a couple close friends I made on campus (and attended the HITNF shows with) were excited to hear what would come next.
When .com started doing the pictures of the guitarist, I thought for a brief instant it was James Byrd (formerly of Fifth Angel). He had the hair, and Byrd had history in the Seattle scene. Kelly Gray wasn't even on my radar. But once Kelly was announced, Brett Miller (a fellow Northwest metal historian and high school friend of the band) noted that Kelly's style was very Blackmore-inspired. Of course, he changed that once he heard what he sounded like in 1999, he was going on what Kelly sounded like in 1981. Anyway, we (my friends and I) were excited to see what Kelly would bring to the band.
Queensryche held a fan club event, Seattle 1998. The band didn't play, but new music was played over the PA system at the event, which was a meet and greet. The descriptions of the songs whet the appetite of all of us online fans at the time that were on .com's old message board. My friends and I decided not to go to Seattle 1998, but said if they did another one, we'd do it. Well, they announced "Seattle '99" and we made plans to attend.
That was my Christmas present to myself -- paying for a roundtrip to Seattle from New York, attending the show, spending a weekend in Seattle (the first of many, many times), etc. A few days prior to the event, friends on .com from Seattle recorded the KISW premier of the songs that would be on Q2k and the interview. If memory serves, they didn't surface on the Internet until the weekend of the fan club event (remember, this was almost 20 years ago). So, we were heading to Seattle not having heard anything new from the band. Just descriptions from people.
A snowstorm hit the day before I was scheduled to fly out. In fact, when I flew out of LaGuardia Airport, my flight was literally the last one allowed to leave. My friend Marshal was on a different flight, and his was canceled and he ultimately didn't make it. What was supposed to be a 10-hour flight with a change over ended up being 18 hours. I got into Seattle without any clothes (they lost my bag), at something like 11 p.m. Pacific time. It was horrendous. Thankfully, I met up with a few online folks (Hutch and others) and my bag was found and made its way to me.
The Seattle '99 show was cool. NAF Studios is simply rehearsal space from what I recall, on the outskirts of Seattle. i remember Susan Tate being there and checking our IDs and issuing us badges (if you check the link to the show page in the write-up, you'll see a scan of mine). Once we got in, I went up to the front. The stage area was separated from a drinking area by a high chainlink fence. The stage was decorated with an Empire tri-ryche, but the whole area had the Mindcrime cover motif of the crowd. It was cool, it was raw, and I was frankly, ridiculously excited.
The band walked up on stage, and I remember Tate: "Welcome, welcome, welcome. I guess this is Seattle...'99, isn't it? So glad you could be here. Ready boys?" And then they kicked into Empire. Good memories. Edit -- that quoted stuff I think was from Seattle 2001...lol. Hey, I'm getting old, it gets jumbled.
The new songs fit right in from what I could tell, and the band sounded good. Kelly sounded really good, although like I think I mentioned in the write-up, that was probably because he was mostly playing rhythm guitar, not lead, so you couldn't really get a feel for it. But at the time, I didn't know, and didn't care. The band had a darker, more metal image again, Tate was commanding and sounded killer, and I was in full-on fanboy mode. :lol
Once it ended, and eventually, when I got home, I was buzzing for weeks. I ended up getting the KISW broadcast from a friend, and later, a really poor quality partial recording of the fan club show. But they were gold for me for those next eight months.
Once Q2k was released, I was, at the time, fully on board with the record. I remember arguing back and forth with "purists" over the quality of the album. Ironically, I'd become one of those purists later. But simply put, I liked Q2k then, and I still do now. More on that later.
Tour-wise, I went to 7 shows on the Q2k tour, including the Seattle '99 fan club event (stopping June 2000). They were:
Queensryche 1/16/99 Seattle, Wash. NAF Studios None
Queensryche 10/29/99 Las Vegas, Nev. The Joint None
Queensryche 10/30/99 Las Vegas, Nev. The Joint None
Queensryche 11/26/99 Chicago, Ill. The Riviera missed dD
Queensryche 11/27/99 Milwaukee, Wis. Riverside Theatre doubleDrive
Queensryche 12/4/99 Wallingford, Conn. Oakdale Theater Caroline’s Spine
Queensryche 3/1/00 Washington, D.C. 9:30 Club Jesse Jms Dupree
Ironically, although I had tickets to the NYC show at the Beacon Theater, I was unable to attend do to not getting back in time for a work event. I had a blast going to all these gigs, honestly. The worst one was the first Vegas gig. There apparently was a curfew the band was not privy to the first night, and they only played 75 minutes, which almost initiated a riot (seriously). The next night, they played more than two hours to make up for it (and I guess they negotiated something with the venue).
Simply put, the tour was fun. I have positive memories of it all. Yeah, Kelly Gray's playing didn't gel. Even then, I had a hard time defending that position. He wasn't the right fit in comparison to DeGarmo. Some fans called Queensryche "Nu-Ryche" back then because of the muddier sound. In retrospect, the name was pretty much on-par with some of the nu-metal band sounds of that time period.
For me personally, it was a wonderful experience traveling around to the gigs and enjoying the band live. I enjoyed the Q2k material then, and still do. I've said repeatedly, and still do, that I would have loved to see where Queensryche would have went next with Kelly Gray. When I interviewed Kelly in June 2001 (I'll try and find that Q&A I did for the next entry), he basically admitted that Q2k was a good record, but they could do better. He indicated that it was about feeling each other out musically, and then healing a bit for them, and moving forward. He was pretty confident a second record together would have been much better. And I agree.
My favorites from Q2k are Howl, When the Rain Comes, Liquid Sky, Right Side of My Mind, Falling Down, and Breakdown. And I have a bit of a soft spot for Sacred Ground because I love the music, along with Burning Man because of those cool guitar licks/harmonics. I also dig Wot Kinda Man. So if you count those, there are eight songs on Q2k out of 13 (counting the two studio tracks released on the 2006 version) that I like. That's a pretty good percentage of tunes. They just didn't...sound like classic Queensryche. It sounded like something new, and I was into it. I still am, it just never got fleshed out further, which I find to be a shame. Seriously.
It was different, but I honestly believe the band's initial excitement was genuine about the material. You could see it in Whip's manner on stage and how they talked about the record. They were a band in those early months of writing, recording and first touring, before things happen with Kelly (as Tate alluded to in the write-up). And I embraced that vibe they had and still do.
Looking back on it now, I separate this era very easily, for obvious reasons. It was a short era, and very distinct. I can put things in "boxes" and it makes me appreciate them more for what they are. Was Q2k a classic Queensryche record? No. Was it even a progressive-tinged hard rock record? Nope. But it was a new generation of hard rock by a band very much united at the time on their direction, and being a fan of bands from this era (Disturbed, Sevendust, etc.) I really dug it and still very much enjoy it. The solo in "Falling Down" is a favorite of mine in particular.
Edit- listening to it today, it looks like Jon Plum and Kelly did the channeling thing with the trade-off solos. In Falling Down, Wilton appears in the left channel, and Kelly in the right. Although curiously, they don't do it on Right Side, which if I remember correctly, is a trade off with Gray first, then Wilton. Weird. Gray and Wilton are both playing lead parts underneath each other, so maybe that's why.
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This was the era when my QR concert going occurred. I got into them around or after the time Degarmo left, but before Q2K was released. I was in college and drove home to attend the show at the Riviera Theater in Chicago, which was my first of 10 total Queensryhe concerts. My friends and I were front row, on the rail in front of Wilton (who was on the stage right side, then). Geoff knelt down and sang a verse of Spreading the Disease right in front of me, with me shouting the lyrics right back at him - that is one of my favorite concert moments of all time. A year or two later, I discovered that QR was my cousin's favorite band, and that he and I were about 10 feet from each other during the show and we each had no clue that the other was also there. We started going to shows together then for a handful of years.
I still like the Q2K record - I have my favorites and agree with Samsara's assessment of the songs. But the album just has a nice groove and flow to it, which I still enjoy. I saw two more shows in March 2000 at the Chicago House of Blues, also from the front row. The setlist was the same, but with a different order to some of the songs. I loved the Mindcrime and Q2K heavy setlist, and then hitting just a few other big songs. So I have a lot of great memories of Q2K and its tour, and at the time, never cared that Kelly Gray was in the band as opposed to DeGarmo, since I was such a new fan.
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This was the era when my QR concert going occurred. I got into them around or after the time Degarmo left, but before Q2K was released. I was in college and drove home to attend the show at the Riviera Theater in Chicago, which was my first of 10 total Queensryhe concerts. My friends and I were front row, on the rail in front of Wilton (who was on the stage right side, then). Geoff knelt down and sang a verse of Spreading the Disease right in front of me, with me shouting the lyrics right back at him - that is one of my favorite concert moments of all time. A year or two later, I discovered that QR was my cousin's favorite band, and that he and I were about 10 feet from each other during the show and we each had no clue that the other was also there. We started going to shows together then for a handful of years.
I still like the Q2K record - I have my favorites and agree with Samsara's assessment of the songs. But the album just has a nice groove and flow to it, which I still enjoy. I saw two more shows in March 2000 at the Chicago House of Blues, also from the front row. The setlist was the same, but with a different order to some of the songs. I loved the Mindcrime and Q2K heavy setlist, and then hitting just a few other big songs. So I have a lot of great memories of Q2K and its tour, and at the time, never cared that Kelly Gray was in the band as opposed to DeGarmo, since I was such a new fan.
Grapp -- do you remember the girl up on the guy's shoulders without a shirt on? Bouncing her boobs for Tate and Wilton? LOL. That's one of the memories burned into my head from that show (along with bad traffic and missing doubleDrive open the gig).
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Grapp -- do you remember the girl up on the guy's shoulders without a shirt on? Bouncing her boobs for Tate and Wilton? LOL. That's one of the memories burned into my head from that show (along with bad traffic and missing doubleDrive open the gig).
Sadly, I do not remember that. I spent most of my time looking forward since I was on the rail, but that would have been very amusing to watch!
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Grapp -- do you remember the girl up on the guy's shoulders without a shirt on? Bouncing her boobs for Tate and Wilton? LOL. That's one of the memories burned into my head from that show (along with bad traffic and missing doubleDrive open the gig).
Sadly, I do not remember that. I spent most of my time looking forward since I was on the rail, but that would have been very amusing to watch!
I was in the pit about midway back, center. toward the end of the show, drunk chick sheds her top, gets on dude's shoulders, and is shaking them in front of Tate and Wilton. First time I saw that at a Queensryche gig. :lol
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Yeah, a similar thing was going on when I saw them on the Building Empires tour in NC. I was up near the rail just a bit left of center. Geoff was belting out a song right in front of me, and I notice people around me start looking back behind for some reason, so I turn around and look. About 10-15 feet farther back, a young lady on some dude's shoulders had pulled up her top for Geoff. Geoff either didn't notice or wasn't impressed, and ran over to the other side of the stage (stage left). But not to let a good flashing go unnoticed, EdBass then sauntered up to the edge of the stage and started motioning for her to come closer.
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One of my favorite GT stage banter moments occurred on this tour - either in Boston or New York, at a theater with seats. I have a video bootleg where he finishes singing Breakdown, then stands at the front of the stage, arms crossed, shaking his head as he stares down at the front row. He then eventually says something about musicians being ego driven and how he's having a hard time keeping his ego in check with "you fuckers sitting down in the front row."
They stand, the crowd erupts, and he goes into a very long explanation of how musicians increase their performance level based on how the crowd reacts, summarizing it as "you give, we give."
In the era before smart phones and people being called out for texting during shows, I thought this was awesome. If you're way in the back and want to stay seated, fine. But to be right in front of the musicians and sit on your asses? To me, that's incredibly rude, and I was happy to see Geoff call them out on it, but also follow it up with a nice explanation as to why it's important for fans to get into a concert in relation to how a band performs on stage. He didn't belittle them at all, aside from calling them fuckers. :)
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So after a fall off in my love for the band, I wasn't expecting much. CDG was gone and whilst this could have been a positive thing following the way his musical taste was drifting from mine.
I bought the album more in hope than expectation but I found I enjoyed most of it. It wasn't QR but it was better than I expected and a lot better than HITNF. It was well produced and I enjoyed the groove of the songs. It wasn't a masterpiece but compared to a lot of what is to come it was.
The guitarist was pretty shit and it affected things live.
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One of my favorite GT stage banter moments occurred on this tour - either in Boston or New York, at a theater with seats. I have a video bootleg where he finishes singing Breakdown, then stands at the front of the stage, arms crossed, shaking his head as he stares down at the front row. He then eventually says something about musicians being ego driven and how he's having a hard time keeping his ego in check with "you fuckers sitting down in the front row."
They stand, the crowd erupts, and he goes into a very long explanation of how musicians increase their performance level based on how the crowd reacts, summarizing it as "you give, we give."
In the era before smart phones and people being called out for texting during shows, I thought this was awesome. If you're way in the back and want to stay seated, fine. But to be right in front of the musicians and sit on your asses? To me, that's incredibly rude, and I was happy to see Geoff call them out on it, but also follow it up with a nice explanation as to why it's important for fans to get into a concert in relation to how a band performs on stage. He didn't belittle them at all, aside from calling them fuckers. :)
March 14, 2000 - New Brunswick, NJ
And yes, I realize my recall on this stuff is borderline crazy. :lol
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p.s. In my rush to get the 1998 Transition and Q2k write-up published this morning, I forgot to add one section in. I'll type it here for all those that read the recap already (so you don't have to go back), and then edit the main post on this era and put it in.
Lyrics/Melodies
One of the key elements of Queensryche's music had always been the challenging vocal melodies and engaging lyrics the band presented. DeGarmo, as most hardcores know, but many fans probably have no idea, helped shape Tate's vocal melodies over the years. Even on the songs where Tate was credited with writing the lyrics, he worked with DeGarmo on the vocal melodies extensively.
So, Q2k was Tate's first record without DeGarmo's influence in that department and it showed. The vocal melodies weren't bad, but they weren't all that memorable either. They were safer, simpler, and less interesting. In fairness, vocal melody complexity had started to shift as far back as Promised Land, where Tate opted for a simpler delivery. However, when DeGarmo left, the vocal melodies took a big nose dive in terms of quality.
The same was true with the lyrics. Quite simply, the lyrics to Q2k were...a far cry from the social commentary and thought-provoking records of Queensryche's past. Even the heavily-criticized Hear in the Now Frontier, while spotty, had a number of great lyrical moments on it. Q2k, however, spent a lot of time on relationships. TOO much time in this writer's opinion. From the cringe-worthy "Sacred Ground" to "How Could I?" there was nothing very thought-provoking. Even the songs not about personal relationships, such as "Falling Down" and "Liquid Sky," really didn't jump out and engage the listener lyrically.
Lyrics are often overlooked, but like the vocal melodies, they were integral to Queensryche's unique sound. And Q2k, with Tate assuming responsibility for both areas, unfortunately, fell flat in that regard. It exposed a significant weakness in the band's songwriting capabilities that suffered on subsequent records, except in certain situations such as Tribe (we'll get to that later).
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Right Side of My Mind always stood out to me. It sounds like classic Queensrcyhe and it's still their best post-Promised Land song, IMO.
Most of the the rest of Q2K is a bit miss for me. Hard to believe things got worse after this. :eek :eek
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I don't remember much about this album. I just started a new job today, so things are a bit hectic right now, but I'll try to give it a couple of listens this week.
I do remember seeing them in Columbus, Ohio at The Newport with JJD opening. My memories of the show are that I was very unimpressed with KG, and these skinheads that were trying to start a fight with some poor mexican kid that was trying to enjoy the show, and mind his own business. The "pit" area of the venue got a little dicey towards the end of the show because people were trying to avoid the fight.
A few of us went out into the alley behind the venue and met Michael and Eddie. For me, that was probably the best part of the evening. The guys were very acomodating.
Edited because my grasp on the english language was at an all-time low in the original post...
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Queensryche 3/1/00 Washington, D.C. 9:30 Club Jesse Jms Dupree
I was at this show, too....didn't you get some hearing damage from it? I remember this because it came up years ago on here, and I recall being surprised because it seemed normal volume to me, though I wasn't super close (maybe 1/3-1/2 way back on KG's side).
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All the while, Tate was testing the waters outside of Queensryche, most notably with Journey. Tate auditioned for the band and wrote demos with Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain. The sessions spurred three songs, one of which had a title: “Walking Away from the Edge.” The songs would ultimately be completely re-written and appear on Journey's Red 13 EP with singer Steve Augeri. But Augeri was extremely complimentary of Tate. Check out some of the fan chatter from 10 years ago when the topic surfaced at MelodicRock.com:
Note: There are a couple different articles on the Internet that speak briefly of Tate's audition, including one with Ross Valory, who confirmed the audition, and complimented Tate on his voice, but he simply wasn't the right fit for the band.
I seriously had never heard this before. Very interesting.
Tour-wise, I went to 7 shows on the Q2k tour, including the Seattle '99 fan club event (stopping June 2000). They were:
Queensryche 1/16/99 Seattle, Wash. NAF Studios None
Queensryche 10/29/99 Las Vegas, Nev. The Joint None
Queensryche 10/30/99 Las Vegas, Nev. The Joint None
Queensryche 11/26/99 Chicago, Ill. The Riviera missed dD
Queensryche 11/27/99 Milwaukee, Wis. Riverside Theatre doubleDrive
Queensryche 12/4/99 Wallingford, Conn. Oakdale Theater Caroline’s Spine
Queensryche 3/1/00 Washington, D.C. 9:30 Club Jesse Jms Dupree
Damn, Brian, nice job!
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So I just spun Q2K for the first time in a long time. A good friend ;) hooked me up with it years after its release. I did not bother with it when it came out.
I remember listening to it with an open mind when I did receive it, and finding some good in it. Has a few good tunes on it. Right Side Of My Mind and When The Rain Comes are very good. And how does Howl not make the album proper?
But listening tonight I was thinking...
1. This band is a shell of itself. ON ALL levels.
2.....
One of the key elements of Queensryche's music had always been the challenging vocal melodies and engaging lyrics the band presented. DeGarmo, as most hardcores know, but many fans probably have no idea, helped shape Tate's vocal melodies over the years. Even on the songs where Tate was credited with writing the lyrics, he worked with DeGarmo on the vocal melodies extensively.
So, Q2k was Tate's first record without DeGarmo's influence in that department and it showed. The vocal melodies weren't bad, but they weren't all that memorable either. They were safer, simpler, and less interesting. In fairness, vocal melody complexity had started to shift as far back as Promised Land, where Tate opted for a simpler delivery. However, when DeGarmo left, the vocal melodies took a big nose dive in terms of quality.
......That is pitiful. How long had Tate been a performer/singer in a band? This tells me that Tate's talents begin and ended with his vocal range. That's disappointing.
3. Did being from Seattle hurt them? I mean, They are not Alice In Chains. They are not Pearl Jam. Were they too greatly influenced by a minimalist's approach. I mean, there's no way 4 of the these guys recorded Warning/RFO/ O:M. There's no way.
I liken it to when in Kiss Meets The Phantom Of The Park when the Kiss clones come and start to perform.
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I remember going in with an open mind but as time went on, I played this album less and less. I can't tell you the last time I listened to it. I even have it on my I-Pod.
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I actually went to my iPod to dial it up, and apparently, it's not on it.
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The only Ryche album I don't own is FU. Besides Tribe until the Todd albums I never play them.
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Had no idea Tate auditioned for Journey. That's an interesting factoid.
My impression of Q2K is a musical identity crisis. At least with Hear In the Now Frontier you could see what they were going for. It had a focused direction and made sense conceptually. Q2K is just confusing. It's bland, muddy, and overall just boring. It's weird reading how Kelly Gray "reenergized" the band. You would think with this being a sort of comeback album and the debut on a new label, they'd come out with a bold musical statement. Q2K sounds like a band that's mindlessly delivering their final album to the label before breaking up. The Right Side Of My Mind is definitely a diamond in the rough though.
The Queensryche/Dream Theater comparison is interesting (and will probably be explored further when we get to their tour), Scenes From A Memory is exactly the type of album they should've made at this point in their career. Not necessarily a concept album and not even the same musical style, but just the level of musical drive and inspiration. To me, there's never been a comparison between QR and DT because of albums like Q2K. DT have put out a few albums I don't care for, but I never got the impression that they were floundering the way QR has multiple times in their career. Even with their most contentious album, Falling Into Infinity, they managed to deliver something that had its own merits.
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Q2K is one of those album that I was SOOO excited about, and it just ultimately left me empty. I actually found myself trying to *make* myself like it because (as as been hinted at) all the pieces were there for this massive comeback. A new member (after the exiting member had completely screwed the pooch with HITNF) a new label, a *band* songwriting effort....but wow. What a letdown. Q2Krap.
However, I don't think it can be understated how much of an anomaly Right Side is. Hard to believe that such an amazing song is on such an otherwise terrible album. Easily top 10 all time QR song. It's the *only* song from the post DeGarmo era that I wish they would bring back to their current live set.
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That's a good way to put it in regards to Right Side; an anomaly. That song is just drastically better than anything else on Q2K, besides Liquid Sky, which is still a distant second.
I got into QR in 2000 with the Greatest Hits cd and I remember hearing nothing but terrible reviews for Q2K, so I held off getting it.
But then I remember watching an old VH1 show called the Rock Show with Cane (that was a great show) and they played the video for Right Side and I was quite impressed. I thought this was an awesome tune and I didn't know what other people were talking about.
So I went out and bought Q2K and understood exactly what people were talking about. Sluggish boring album yet ends on a very awesome note. You don't see that all the time.
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I was at this show, too....didn't you get some hearing damage from it? I remember this because it came up years ago on here, and I recall being surprised because it seemed normal volume to me, though I wasn't super close (maybe 1/3-1/2 way back on KG's side).
I did. I got tinitus after being in front of one of JJD band's speakers. I was right up front. Not sure what happened, but I was pretty disoriented and dizzy after it happened. I can't even remember the actual show, just some pre-show and post-show stuff. I think (just guess work) it blew out my ear drum or something, and I've had tinitus ever since. It was also the last show I ever attended without ear plugs. I learned my lesson in a very bad way. Regretted it every night, ever since.
Re: Right Side -- for sure, it harkens back to classic Queensryche, and really is the only song on the record that does, which is why I feel most who give it a lot of credit like it so much. But for me, Right Side would never make a top-15 list if the original band even wrote it. So, for me, while a top track on Q2k, it's still just "good" in comparison to the original lineup.
What I really preferred was when they deviated and just played. That's why I prefer songs such as Howl, Liquid Sky, and When the Rain Comes. Those were types of songs the original band really wouldn't have done (maybe something like WtRC would have).
In any event, it was an interesting time for the band. I also found my 2001 Q&A with Kelly Gray, which has some...interesting comments about Queensryche, Dream Theater, and other related issues for people to chew on. In the next write-up, I'll make sure to re-post the Q&A, and link to it for folks to read...
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Brian, this quote from you in the Maiden thread caught my eye, and it's something I've been thinking about..
And Wilton had a bigger role in the earlier years than the Maiden guitarists had in songwriting.
What the heck happened to him? I mean, with Q2K, we are entering some very choppy waters, and I have to wonder, where was Wilton during this time?
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Brian, this quote from you in the Maiden thread caught my eye, and it's something I've been thinking about..
And Wilton had a bigger role in the earlier years than the Maiden guitarists had in songwriting.
What the heck happened to him? I mean, with Q2K, we are entering some very choppy waters, and I have to wonder, where was Wilton during this time?
Tim -- when you look back at the write-ups for Empire and PL, the band took a shift away from metal and aggressive riffs (for the most part). That was Wilton's wheelhouse. Recall also, the mentions of Whip allegedly having some issues himself after Empire (remember his alter ego SPIKE), and it all led to a period of limited writing from him.
When Chris left, Michael not only lost his partner in crime, but his best friend. So, I imagine all that together took a big toll on Wilton, along with the fact that he just didn't connect well with Tate much any longer because Tate wasn't feeling the type of riffs Wilton would do. It would take DeGarmo taking those riffs, and making a cool arrangement and adding stuff, to really connect with Tate. So there was an existing disconnect to a degree.
On Q2k, Michael was very much involved, but remember, he was also working with and helping teach Kelly the old stuff too. That's a whole relationship they needed to build. And because Kelly and Geoff were tight, and there was no real relationship between Wilton and Gray beforehand (other than knowing one another), it was no doubt a little awkward, I would think. That resulted in limited stuff from Wilton on Q2k. He was instrumental in Right Side, Falling Down, When the Rain Comes, and one other track. But they credited the whole thing to the entire band, because they all worked in tandem, together.
So, yeah, things with Wilton were on the decline, because of various factors. You also have to remember that Michael is a very...non-confrontational guy. I don't want to speak for him, and I don't really speak much with him any longer. But he's not one to push very hard. He doesn't like to make waves. If you're that type of personality, the band dynamic as it began to change after Empire, was not very conducive to Wilton.
There's also a lot of rumor out there that Chris really helped arrange Michael's stuff. I am not sure how true it is, but over the years, if you notice Michael's songs, their arrangements were a lot simpler than Chris'. And if Michael was having some...issues...during the PL and HITNF years (notice the much simpler arrangement on Reach from HITNF?), it wouldn't surprise me if DeGarmo just decided the heck with it, and he'd pick up the slack (which is personally what I think happened).
But after all that, it took a while until Wilton surfaced again. And he did, on Tribe. And we'll get to that in couple of entries, and you'll see how his disconnect with Tate really impacted the band, and how that disconnect led to the "Tateryche" era of Queensryche. It's not as complicated as I might have made it sound. Just personalities, differences in ideas, etc., just led to how things went.
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That is not at all complicated. :)
I have to chew on that for a bit though..
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When Chris left, Michael not only lost his partner in crime, but his best friend. So, I imagine all that together took a big toll on Wilton, along with the fact that he just didn't connect well with Tate much any longer because Tate wasn't feeling the type of riffs Wilton would do. It would take DeGarmo taking those riffs, and making a cool arrangement and adding stuff, to really connect with Tate. So there was an existing disconnect to a degree.
To elaborate on this a bit, just from my own understanding: I remember a comment on the PL CD Rom where I think it was Geoff talking about how Chris had this role of being able to take all of these disparate ideas and serve as the bridge to help Tate and the others communicate with one another, and he was the "glue" bringing it all together into songs that worked. I think it is fairly apparent that that is exactly the role he played between Wilton and Tate. Michael has come up with some cool stuff over the years. But I think it took Chris in the band to take Michael's ideas from the EP through Promised Land and craft them into that multi-layered, complex Queensryche sound we are familiar with in that era. With Chris doing that less on HITNF and then not at all afterward when he wasn't in the band, I think it is obvious why, even when you hear some tasty Wilton riffage or a cool Wilton solo, it pales in comparison to what he did when Chris was still in the band. Jason Slater was able to emulate that a bit on Mindcrime II and American Soldier. But there's a difference between someone coming in and analyzing what Chris did on the early albums and trying to emulate that vs. the person in Chris who just innately did it in those earlier years.
I think you can also see it in the LaTorre era of the band. They sound VERY different from the classic QR sound. But there are similarities and a "modernized" return to form of sorts, and I attribute it to three things: (1) Parker spent a lot of time early on really studying Chris and trying to emulate what Chris did on those early songs to try to play them faithfully. I give him a lot of credit for the amount of time he put in to really study and learn the subtleties and intricacies Chris brought to the CDG-era songs. So having him as a playing/writing partner with Wilton now has, IMO, likely helped them get back to a sound that is more inline with the band's early-era than the Tateryche years. (2) As an extension of #1, the entire band writes together a fair amount more now than they did in the Tateryche years, and you not only have Parker bringing what he brings to the table, but LaTorre, who has also carefully studied early QR and who is also a metalhead. (3) Michael just coming out of his shell a bit more in the writing process than he was with Tate in the band and Chris absent. The effect these things may or may not have had on Michael is just speculation on my part. But to me, given what we DO know, and just observing the musical progression of the band, it makes sense to me.
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I remember buying this on release day and listening to it quite a bit when it came out. I was also a member of the fan club at this time. They were really talking up the new guitar player, and I seem to remember they were excited about his comment to the effect of "putting the ass back in our music." Should have raised a red flag for me, but I was inclined to think it meant they were going to go back in a harder direction after HITNF. I remember some of the names being batted around as a possible replacement for DeGarmo, and the two that come to mind right now are Frank Aresti and Trevor Rabin, so the Kelly Gray choice seemed to come out of nowhere to me. The album was decent, especially at the time and compared against its predecessor. It hasn't aged well for me though.
I also remember seeing them at the Orbit Room in Grand Rapids on that tour, and mostly feeling kinda sad that this was a band I had seen in arenas on their previous tours. Set list was okay, but watching oven mitts butcher the Jet City Woman solo was a bit disappointing. The other thing I remember from that show was some drunk asshole trying to start a fight with me because I didn't let him push me out of his way as he was trying to muscle his way toward the front. He got right up in my face, trying to intimidate me, and my buddy looked at him and said, "it's not worth it dude." He kept on to the front, and five minutes later, he was on the ground wrestling with some other dude. Only time I've ever seen a fight at a show. Because I was in the fan club, I got to meet the band afterwards. I remember Scott, Michael and Eddie being cool, Geoff was kind of a dick, and Kelly was only interested in trying to bang a groupie. That kinda soured me on QR at that point. It seemed like, to me,that when Chris left, he took the band's integrity with him.
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and I seem to remember they were excited about his comment to the effect of "putting the ass back in our music."
:lol
That just strikes me as funny. As in, no kidding!
When Chris left, Michael not only lost his partner in crime, but his best friend. So, I imagine all that together took a big toll on Wilton, along with the fact that he just didn't connect well with Tate much any longer because Tate wasn't feeling the type of riffs Wilton would do. It would take DeGarmo taking those riffs, and making a cool arrangement and adding stuff, to really connect with Tate. So there was an existing disconnect to a degree.
To elaborate on this a bit, just from my own understanding: I remember a comment on the PL CD Rom where I think it was Geoff talking about how Chris had this role of being able to take all of these disparate ideas and serve as the bridge to help Tate and the others communicate with one another, and he was the "glue" bringing it all together into songs that worked. I think it is fairly apparent that that is exactly the role he played between Wilton and Tate. Michael has come up with some cool stuff over the years. But I think it took Chris in the band to take Michael's ideas from the EP through Promised Land and craft them into that multi-layered, complex Queensryche sound we are familiar with in that era. With Chris doing that less on HITNF and then not at all afterward when he wasn't in the band, I think it is obvious why, even when you hear some tasty Wilton riffage or a cool Wilton solo, it pales in comparison to what he did when Chris was still in the band. Jason Slater was able to emulate that a bit on Mindcrime II and American Soldier. But there's a difference between someone coming in and analyzing what Chris did on the early albums and trying to emulate that vs. the person in Chris who just innately did it in those earlier years.
I think you can also see it in the LaTorre era of the band. They sound VERY different from the classic QR sound. But there are similarities and a "modernized" return to form of sorts, and I attribute it to three things: (1) Parker spent a lot of time early on really studying Chris and trying to emulate what Chris did on those early songs to try to play them faithfully. I give him a lot of credit for the amount of time he put in to really study and learn the subtleties and intricacies Chris brought to the CDG-era songs. So having him as a playing/writing partner with Wilton now has, IMO, likely helped them get back to a sound that is more inline with the band's early-era than the Tateryche years. (2) As an extension of #1, the entire band writes together a fair amount more now than they did in the Tateryche years, and you not only have Parker bringing what he brings to the table, but LaTorre, who has also carefully studied early QR and who is also a metalhead. (3) Michael just coming out of his shell a bit more in the writing process than he was with Tate in the band and Chris absent. The effect these things may or may not have had on Michael is just speculation on my part. But to me, given what we DO know, and just observing the musical progression of the band, it makes sense to me.
That all makes perfect sense. I just wonder what took Wilton, and the other guys, so long.
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??? What is that abomination of a post? I can't even tell what part is your and what part is mine.
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:lol
Fixed.
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and I seem to remember they were excited about his comment to the effect of "putting the ass back in our music."
:lol
That just strikes me as funny. As in, no kidding!
:lol
Michael Wilton (2013) - "so God.........that prayer back in '99 about making our albums sound like ass - I think you misunderstood"
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They were really talking up the new guitar player, and I seem to remember they were excited about his comment to the effect of "putting the ass back in our music." Should have raised a red flag for me, but I was inclined to think it meant they were going to go back in a harder direction after HITNF.
Yeah, I remember that now too.
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That quote regarding "putting the ass back in the music" wasn't Kelly Gray. We remember it as such, but it was actually Brother Cane (now Black Star Riders) guitarist Damon Johnson, commenting on Q2k. Kelly answers that himself in my old Q&A, which will be available as link in the next write-up.
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You could argue that the split with Tate was taking the ass out of their music 😀
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I'll just add that I did my obligatory listen to Q2K this morning, including cranking Howl in the car on the way in to work this morning in order to give it one more "fair shot" at suitably ludicrous volume. I did notice that there is some cool chord picking going on behind the vocal during part of the verses that I hadn't noticed before. But overall, the song still doesn't do it for me, and I would rank it in the bottom tier of songs from the album.
I come back to: It's not an album that I hate. It's a decent album with some good moments. But it what I had come to love and expect from Queensryche. And despite music having taken a turn that I didn't care for at all during this time period, there were some other releases from bands during this timeframe that were so far above anything that this album had to offer that it is easy to understand it falling by the wayside.
Another thing I noticed. This is the first album where Geoff's voice is starting to sound thin, nasally, and throaty at times. I didn't pick up on it at the time, but it is there.
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Another thing I noticed. This is the first album where Geoff's voice is starting to sound thin, nasally, and throaty at times. I didn't pick up on it at the time, but it is there.
This is also the first album where I can start to hear some strain in his voice. It was maybe there a little bit on HITNF, but it really starts to creep in on this record.
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If I may provide a different perspective (not saying it is right, just another angle), this is also the first time Kelly Gray worked with Geoff on his vocals for an album release. And as you'll come to read in the Q&A I did with Kelly in 2001 (coming next write-up), you'll see he and Chris very much differed on how they approached vocals. Long story short -- Chris was involved with making suggestions and trying different things with vocals in an effort to get them as high quality as possible, whereas Kelly was hands-off.
One last thing from me regarding Q2k itself (unless someone asks a question, I'll bow out until Monday). If the name "Queensryche" wasn't on it, would it have piqued your interest? It's hard to be that objective, particularly in retrospect. But think about it. Or, put another way from my wife - "If this was the first music you heard from the band, would you want to hear more?"
For me, personally, the answer on Q2k was yes. I was very much interested in the direction they elected to take, and wanted a second record with Gray, even if he was a bad choice on stage, because he wouldn't (or couldn't) play Chris' parts correctly.
The difficulty, however, is that Queensryche painted itself into a corner. By changing their sound a bit from record to record, they opened a lot of artistic doors. But when they got to HITNF, they pushed it open way too far, losing people. And with Q2k, instead of making what I would personally consider the wiser move for their careers, and returning to a more classic sound (ala Empire, lets say), instead they decided to just hand the reins over to Kelly more or less, and pretty much give the middle finger to the back catalog, launching a "NEW" (NU) Queensryche.
It was ballsy, it was risky, and on some level, it was commendable. But (and it's a really big but), they underestimated the fan base's intelligence and impact, thinking they'd just follow along like sheep. Some did, including myself (I had no idea that Chris was the main driver of the band at the time, sonically). But others, who at the time knew more, or simply just saw the name, and associated it with a different sound, spoke with their wallets. Instead, had the band gotten a guy more in Chris' vein and style, and returned to a more familiar sonic area (think Empire with perhaps a bit more crunch), Queensryche might have ridden out the wave a bit and not buried themselves for the next few years. A ton of what ifs in that, but it is what it is.
But again, for me personally, I think Kelly Gray gets a bad rap. No, he's not as good a songwriter or guitarist (IMO) as DeGarmo. And his style was completely different than Chris'. However, Gray can certainly play, and he's written some damn good songs with Queensryche, Brother Cane, and Slave to the System. But they are dismissed because, primarily, he was expected to play like Chris, or at least play really clean. But that isn't him.
Returning to Q2k itself, as a guy on my old forum (I believe it was "gaguy") always said, there's this earthy, real tone to Q2k that was appealing, and still is (at least to me). Had Atlantic Records truly put the financial muscle and might behind Queensryche and the Q2k album the way I am assuming they told the band they would, I feel it would have done a lot better, and appealed (as it did to my law school roommate who couldn't believe it was Queensryche and liked the record a lot) to the modern hard rock audience. But given QR's age, and the name associating them with a different era, Atlantic didn't go full-on, particularly once "Breakdown" fell down the chart. But there was, IMO, a lot of potential, had the band been a "new" band no one had heard of.
Instead, because it didn't sound like "Queensryche" it got dismissed. And had it sounded like Queensryche, it probably still would have been dismissed, because of the stigma of the 80s. The band really was in a no-win situation in 1999 using the band name. But it was something they (I assume) HAD to do, because it carried weight in the industry, whereas a new band name would not have.
And to be honest, naming-wise, while Chris was indeed the glue, and with Tate the primary engine of the band, I wouldn't have expected Queensryche to not use the band name. It wasn't "Chris'" band -- it was all of theirs.
Anyway, I got to rambling off the top of my head. Simply put, for me, a sequel to Q2k, with that lineup, and expectations of growth JUST based on that record, not the seven albums before it, may have yielded something good. It was a shame (IMO) that we never got it.
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Would it have piqued my interest? No. Not in a million years. I was no fan of the no metal or the grunge sound.
I do however not hate Q2k.
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One last thing from me regarding Q2k itself (unless someone asks a question, I'll bow out until Monday). If the name "Queensryche" wasn't on it, would it have piqued your interest? It's hard to be that objective, particularly in retrospect. But think about it. Or, put another way from my wife - "If this was the first music you heard from the band, would you want to hear more?"
Yeah, I feel similarly to Lowdz. For me, the answer is unequivocally "no." I wasn't a fan of this type of rock. And to me, while this is a decent album, there are plenty of bands during this timeframe that were doing that sound better. And that is ultimately why I don't return to the album. Other than a couple of songs, I'm just not a fan of it, no matter the name on the front cover.
I was very much interested in the direction they elected to take, and wanted a second record with Gray, even if he was a bad choice on stage, because he wouldn't (or couldn't) play Chris' parts correctly.
...
But again, for me personally, I think Kelly Gray gets a bad rap. No, he's not as good a songwriter or guitarist (IMO) as DeGarmo. And his style was completely different than Chris'. However, Gray can certainly play, and he's written some damn good songs with Queensryche, Brother Cane, and Slave to the System. But they are dismissed because, primarily, he was expected to play like Chris, or at least play really clean. But that isn't him.
These two ideas sort of blend together. I would have been okay with another album with Kelly. Q2K certainly wasn't all bad. And they hadn't yet gelled even remotely when they were writing the tunes for it. I would have absolutely been curious to see what another go-around would have produced.
I also agree that Kelly unfairly gets a bad rap. I'm a LOT more forgiving of his live playing than most, and I didn't really have a problem with what I heard in that regard. But since my only experience with his playing from this era is from Live Evolution, I'll hold off until we get to that...
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Back then when I heard the news that Chris was leaving I wasn’t sure what to make of it. I was torn because on one side he was responsible for a lot of classic QR tunes but on the other hand he was also mainly responsible for the HITNF direction which I really did not like. But I was glad that QR decided to carry on.
I really liked Q2K and thought that, if it wasn’t a true return to form, it was at least a decent enough effort and a step in the right direction. I know I’m in the minority but I find it certainly much better than HITNF and sometimes would put it even higher than Promised Land. And for me it is still miles ahead of everything that came after till the Todd LaTorre fronted records. And yes, I would have liked for them to carry on in this direction and maybe try to improve on Q2K. For me that would have certainly been better than the snooze fest that is Tribe.
Falling Down, Sacred Ground, When The Rain Comes, The Right Side Of My Mind are my favorites, but after starting strong the record loses a bit in the second half. Like Samsara mentioned some good ideas but not executed well for whole songs.
The lyrics in Sacred Ground never really bothered me. Growing up and liking a lot of hair metal bands I was used to similar and even worse lyrics (David Coverdale I’m looking in your direction ::)).
I find it interesting that every band member is credited with the songs, it seemed like a real band effort in writing and therefore a change from the previous records, but I always doubted that they all wrote everything together. The above posted credits make more sense.
I knew of Tate’s short liaison with Journey, he even has a co-writing credit for Walking Away From The Edge from Red 13. And while Tate in Journey is an interesting thought, I don’t think this could have worked for a longer term. He had the range for sure to sing the old Steve Perry material but I always thought that Schon/Cain and Tate were in completely different musical spheres.
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One last thing from me regarding Q2k itself (unless someone asks a question, I'll bow out until Monday). If the name "Queensryche" wasn't on it, would it have piqued your interest? It's hard to be that objective, particularly in retrospect. But think about it. Or, put another way from my wife - "If this was the first music you heard from the band, would you want to hear more?"
No.
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There is no way that if I heard Q2K first, I would've ever given this band another look.
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Great write-up and posts guys. I don't have anything to add but I am going to give this album a listen when I'm traveling today.
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I really liked Q2K and thought that, if it wasn’t a true return to form, it was at least a decent enough effort and a step in the right direction. I know I’m in the minority but I find it certainly much better than HITNF and sometimes would put it even higher than Promised Land.
Wow, that certainly IS a minority opinion. But, hey, cool that you liked it. For me, I would put it WAY down at the bottom, above only D2C (I'm not counting the covers album, because who counts those?).
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It probably helped that I liked (and still like) some of the grunge and nu metal bands. Not saying that Q2K is one of those, but there are similarities, especially the sound of the record. And it was more lively and rocking than the previous two. It's not a classic, not by a long shot, but listening to it recently I still like it better than the rest of the Tateryche stuff.
And to this day I have never heard the covers record and D2C, and I'm not planning to change that soon, as long as Samsara isn't convincing me otherwise in the upcoming writeups to those.
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I'll hold off on saying more until we get there, but the covers record DOES have some cool moments. The arrangement and heavy vibe of Welcome To the Machine is really cool, and makes the song dark, heavy, and gritty. Neon Knights is really cool. And there are some other neat moments. It's worth a listen one time. Maybe find it one YouTube or some other online source and listen once when Samsara gets to that point in the thread, just for reference. With maybe one or two RARE exceptions, I just don't find covers albums all that compelling. And this one is pretty weak overall. But it deserves a listen at least.
But back to Q2K, I really like your comment that "It probably helped that I liked (and still like) some of the grunge and nu metal bands. Not saying that Q2K is one of those, but there are similarities, especially the sound of the record." It goes back to what I said earlier that the band had a unique knack early on for reflecting a given aspect of the music scene at any given time, without BEING that particular subgenre, if that makes sense. I think they still had that, to an extent, through Tribe. And I think it is back now in the LaTorre era of the band as well. I think they lost that in the post-Tribe Tateryche era. But I think the reason why is because Geoff and outside writers were doing everything, and a lot of that revolved around the band really having somewhat of an identity crisis in terms of their sound, with Tate pulling the band way over to his own influences, but also trying to recapture enough of the "classic QR sound" to keep the fans happy. But Q2K definitely has that aspect, and that's cool, even if it may have taken the band in a direction I personally didn't care for at the time.
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Back then when I heard the news that Chris was leaving I wasn’t sure what to make of it. I was torn because on one side he was responsible for a lot of classic QR tunes but on the other hand he was also mainly responsible for the HITNF direction which I really did not like. But I was glad that QR decided to carry on.
I think this sums up my feelings at the time. I really wasn't super sad that CDG had left QR back then, largely because his name was all over the writing credits for the last 2 albums, and HitNF was particularly disappointing to me. So getting someone new in the lineup would hopefully get them back on track to where they were previously, or so I hoped. I vaguely remember some different names being tossed around as to who the new guitarist would be, and I too remember seeing photos of "the new guy" but with his face completely obscured on purpose. I don't remember feeling strongly one way or the other when Kelly was finally announced as the new guitarist since I didn't have a reference point for what he'd bring to the table.
When Q2K was announced, I thought the name sounded stupid, riding on the hype of "Y2K" but whatever. When the album was released, I really liked the cover art (and still do) - definitely better, IMO, than several other album covers they had. But unfortunately, the music didn't measure up to my liking the cover art. I won't waste time going on a track by track, but just say that I hold it pretty much at the same level as HitNF, maybe just a smidge above HitNF. Several of the songs are meh, and the only 2 tracks that stand out to me are the obvious: RSoMM and Liquid Sky. There are a handful of others that are decent enough (Sacred Ground aside from the lyrics, How Could I, Burning Man altho annoyingly repetitive and Wot Kinda Man). For the life of me, I cannot understand the appeal of Breakdown. That song does absolutely nothing for me.
I ended up catching 4 of the shows on the initial tour - caught both Vegas shows (Brian, I think I met you at the first show as I recall meeting someone from NY a few seats away - will have to check my ticket stubs) plus LA and San Diego. Big reason why I did so is because I remember some talk about them mixing things up setlist-wise from show to show. And they did for the 2 Vegas shows. The LA and San Diego show ended up with the same setlist, but whatever. Funny - I recall at one of the Vegas shows, Tate announcing they were hesitant to perform the next song since CDG wasn't with them (I don't remember the wording, but he didn't mention him by name) before going into Silent Lucidity, which gained a lot of cheers when they started playing it. First Vegas show didn't have an encore and left everyone wondering if they would come back out (they didn't), but we got a much longer show the following night. Another thing I remember too is Kelly leaving his guitar on with distortion ringing out of the PA when walking off the stage - seemed kinda cool at the time, but in hindsight was more lame than anything else.
After the San Diego show, I remember attending the aftershow meet'n'greet. I distinctly remember chatting with Scott and our conversation included asking him if he had met Neil Peart (he had) and giving him a copy of the newly released Scenes From a Memory (I think he had heard of DT, but don't remember how familiar he said he was with them). Apparently, not many fans were interested in engaging Kelly in much conversation, so I remember him announcing his goodbyes to everyone much earlier than the other 4 guys. Poor Kelly. :P
They were really talking up the new guitar player, and I seem to remember they were excited about his comment to the effect of "putting the ass back in our music." Should have raised a red flag for me, but I was inclined to think it meant they were going to go back in a harder direction after HITNF.
Yeah, I remember that now too.
Ditto. Didn't realize it wasn't Kelly Gray, but I do remember the quote well.
Also, I too never knew the info about Tate trying out and being considered as vocalist for Journey. Can't imagine what that would've been like had they chosen him.
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Scotty, we found out though the 2000's how important Chris was to the band. With each purchase including Q2K I barely played them after the initial listening. ( a few weeks of listening).
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Scotty, we found out though the 2000's how important Chris was to the band. With each purchase including Q2K I barely played them after the initial listening. ( a few weeks of listening).
I fully agree - I was just posting what my thoughts were when the lineup change happened, not looking back in hindsight.
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Yup, yup. Absolutely.
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When the album was released, I really liked the cover art (and still do) - definitely better, IMO, than several other album covers they had.
This, they have a lot of cover art that I think isn't that great but they nailed it with Q2K. And I don't have a problem with the name, sure it's derived from the Y2K thing, but I found it kinda fitting, because like starting a new millennium, QR started a new phase of their career with Chris gone and Gray on board.
Scotty, we found out though the 2000's how important Chris was to the band. With each purchase including Q2K I barely played them after the initial listening. ( a few weeks of listening).
Obviously Chris was more than just a guitarist and songwriter, he was a very large part of what made the classic records so classic. And it is also obvious that no one wanted to pick up the reins after he left. No one (apart from Tate) wanted to take responsibility, no one had a vision or an idea where this band could go and that led to Tate taking over and the other guys just going along.
But at the time I didn't know that, nor did I know what was to come in the following years. And I'm still not sure that if Chris had stayed they would have gone back to former glory. I thought back then (and I'm still not really convinced otherwise) that he had lost (or used up) the creativity of the first records.
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I've been pretty busy over the last week and I've only given Q2K two listens so far. First impressions - Liquid sky and the closer are quite awesome. I'll keep spinning it over the next several days.
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Greatest Hits (2000)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cd/Queensryche_-_Greatest_Hits_cover.jpg/220px-Queensryche_-_Greatest_Hits_cover.jpg)
After the support tour for Q2k concluded, Virgin/Capitol, which absorbed the assets of EMI as its parent company, released Queensryche's first-ever Greatest Hits album, consisting of tracks from the EP through Hear in the Now Frontier.
The release consisted of various singles Queensryche released through 1997, plus “Chasing Blue Sky” and the full band version of “Someone Else?” If memory serves, when asked by media why the band selected the tracks they did, Tate explained while he and the band had input, they couldn't all agree on what tracks to include, and simply went with the major singles from the record.
The artwork was done by Hugh Syme.
Touring
The timing of releasing Queensryche's Greatest Hits compilation was fortuitous, as they were selected by Iron Maiden to be the primary support band on that band's tour promoting Brave New World in 2000. Halford would provide support before Queensryche.
Note: This was the point in time that there was some angst between Dream Theater's Mike Portnoy and Queensryche. Apparently Dream Theater was offered the same slot to support Maiden, and turned it down, because they had allegedly reached an agreement to co-headline a tour with Queensryche. As the story goes, allegedly Queensryche pulled out of the co-headline jaunt with Dream Theater to take the Maiden gig, which made Portnoy a little salty... (thanks to bosk1 for the reminder on this one).
The trek with Iron Maiden, which lasted through early 2001, culminating with a Jan. 9, 2001 performance at Foro Sol in Mexico City (assuming it was a warm-up for the filming of Iron Maiden's Rock in Rio concert and live album release), re-exposed Queensryche to a large audience of heavy metal fans, which helped the band continue forward after another unsuccessful album sales cycle with Q2k. Queensryche received just under an hour to perform, and tailored the set to the metal crowd, performing “Queen of the Reich” and other heavier tunes.
Once the tour concluded, the band announced another fan club show, this time dubbed S2k1 on June 2, 2001. And as an added bonus, Tate would be performing his first-ever solo concert the night before at The Catwalk in Seattle. The five months in-between, however, were spent on side projects (more on those later) and negotiating a new label and manager for Queensryche.
S2k1 and Signing with Sanctuary Records
Come June 1, Queensryche fans descended upon Seattle for the band's second fan club-only show (dubbed S2k1) on June 2. Before that, however, Tate debuted new solo album material he had been working on with a new band at show on June 1, at The Catwalk club. The setlist contained some never-before played gems (“Hero” and “spOOL”) from Queensryche, and some rarities such as Queensryche's cover of “Gonna Get Close to You,” along with various solo cuts being performed for the first time.
The next day, Queensryche played The Showbox, marking their first show in five months, and a special setlist that included “Suite Sister Mary” with Pamela Moore, “En Force,” and “No Sanctuary” from The Warning. The show was filmed for an online broadcast later on, and if memory serves, Tate announced the band had signed with Sanctuary Records. The gig was fun and the performance by Tate and the band was solid.
It was during this weekend that I was fortunate enough to interview Kelly Gray, along with his guitar tech and Slave to the System bandmate, Scott Heard. Kelly had a number of things to say, including that the band at that point had about 10 song ideas for the follow-up to Q2k. He spoke of Q2k as a good record, but clearly felt they could do better. Kelly also shared his feelings at the time on Dream Theater. For brevity's sake, I won't cut and paste it here on DTF, but you can check out an abridged version of it here:
https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/kellygray-2001interview.pdf
Long story short, Kelly had some pointed things to say regarding Dream Theater's Scenes from a Memory and how it "borrowed" some ideas from Operation: Mindcrime.
Live Evolution (2001)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b4/Queensryche_-_Live_Evolution_cover.jpg/220px-Queensryche_-_Live_Evolution_cover.jpg)
Lead vocals – Geoff Tate
Lead & rhythm guitars, background vocals – Kelly Gray
Lead & rhythm guitars – Michael Wilton
Bass & background vocals – Eddie Jackson
Drums – Scott Rockenfield
Cover art - Rory Berger
Shortly after the S2k1 fan club event, Queensryche announced that it would play two nights at the Moore Theater in Seattle for the recording of what would become Live Evolution, a 2 CD/1 DVD set showcasing the band's history up to that point. The two-night affair was marketed to fans as two completely different sets, setting the stage for a historic performance for Queensryche. They also announced a new manager, Lars Sorenson, who would eventually end up co-managing the band with Susan Tate, Geoff's wife.
Recorded on July 27-28, there were unfortunately problems from the get-go. The primary error was an issue with the audio portion of the recording. Some of it was usable, some was not. This meant that the band would have to re-record in-studio, or rely on the second night. On top of that, unlike how the shows were promoted, only one-half of the second show was different than the first night. Whether that was what was planned, or a result of the sound issues from the first night's recording remains a mystery – as is what actually happened with the sound.
Ultimately, Live Evolution was released just two months later on Sept. 25, and was notable (at the time) for its superb picture quality. The DVD (20 tracks) did not feature all the songs included on the 2 CD set (30 tracks), however. The audio problems are notable on the CDs, as Tate is featured as saying “let's go!” right before “Spreading the Disease,” which from what fans who attended noted, was a long delay on stage.
Despite the difficulties, Live Evolution was well received in the media, and featured Queensryche's history in “suites” of songs – truly showcasing how the band evolved from era to era. Rarely played cuts such as “London” made an appearance, and Pamela Moore reprises her role as Sister Mary in “Suite Sister Mary.” Generally speaking, fan reaction to Live Evolution was positive, although Gray's guitar playing and over reliance on the wah pedal was viewed as “jarring” and “out of place” by many fans at the time.
Queensryche embarked on a short tour of the United States to promote Live Evolution following its release. The gigs were set up similar to the DVD, with songs being performed in “suites.” Something was clearly amiss with the band, however. Promoted as “An Evening with Queensryche,” and having no opener, fans expected a lengthy set. Unfortunately, Queensryche instead played for 90-100 minutes most nights.
Note: 9/11 created some travel issues for Queensryche. They were booked to appear in Japan for the first time in years to kick-off the Live Evolution tour. However, due to security concerns, the band did not fly to Japan. Doing so would come back to haunt them in a few years and allegedly was a factor in making a future record. We'll get to why when we get to discussing the end part of Queensryche's next album support tour...
Going back to the Live Evolution tour, at the last show on Nov. 21, 2001, at the Beacon Theater in New York City, none of the band members interacted with each other. They showed up, Stood on stage, played, and after the last notes, Tate, Wilton, and Jackson left the stage without a bow, leaving Rockenfield and Gray together, who took the applause together. This would be Kelly Gray's final performance as a member of Queensryche (until he joined up with Tate in 2012 for Tate's version of the band – we'll get to that later), and puts a bow on the Q2k era of the band.
Next-up: Side Projects & Band Dysfunction (2002)
Scheduling note -- The next entry will be fairly short, and will be posted later this week, before getting to Tribe (which will be lengthier) next week.
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Some comments on this period from me:
As I have said previously, I'm a fan of this era of the band. I enjoyed Q2k, and while Kelly Gray's live playing left something to be desired, I embraced the band wholeheartedly at this point. Overall, from my first show on the Q2k tour (Oct. 29, 1999) to the last show of the Live Evolution tour (Nov. 21, 2001), I saw this era of the band 11 times, and had some outstanding memories.
Seeing the renewed energy at Seattle '99 was a huge high point that I'll never forget. You could feel the electricity in the air for that hour-long gig. The Q2k tour was a ton of fun, and a setlist relying on Mindcrime and Q2k was energetic. S2k1 was...really special. Not only did Tate make his solo live debut (it was a great show -- he actually sang with fangs in his mouth for "Gonna Get Close to You - ha ha), but Queensryche pulling out No Sanctuary and En Force was incredible. In fact, I don't think they've played No Sanctuary since. If they did, it was only one, and not since 2001.
The interview with Kelly Gray was a bit surreal. He and Scott Heard picked me up at my hotel, and we went down to the Frontier Room in Seattle. Simply put -- Kelly couldn't have been nicer or more accommodating. I offered to buy a few rounds, he passed. Didn't drink a drop. Answered each of my questions (the interview you can click on above is abridged, there is a whole section that is on side project stuff that didn't make sense to re-upload), and didn't duck anything...which says a lot.
I know folks may have some angst about some of his comments, and I look forward to seeing them. Hard to believe that interview was done more than 16 years ago now...
Regarding the Live Evolution Tour -- I was at the final two shows: Boston and New York City. Honestly, that NYC show was one of the most disappointing and awkward moments I have ever had as a fan (with the witnessing of the collapse of Nevermore being another). There was little interaction among the band all night long, and that walk-off without saying anything was just plain weird. The show was ridiculously short too.
I remember walking out of there thinking we may have seen the final show of the band. That wouldn't be the case of course, but the negative energy was high. If memory serves, I think people booed them as well, after realizing they were done for the evening after only 90 minutes (the tickets, for the time period, were expensive -- like $60 bucks -- need to check my stub).
Just a very strange time and completely opposite of the vibe I got from them in June 2001, five months prior.
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My first reaction to Scenes was that it sounded a lot like Mindcrime, at least at first. After the initial three track run the album takes a different direction. There are other little similarities (mostly in structure) but overall to say they were just repeating what Queensryche did is really inaccurate. Probably goes without saying on this forum though. :p
I'll check out the live album later.
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Great review Samsara, as always! Just for information, I guess Queensryche only played on Rock in Rio in 1991. I was on the IM show at Rock in Rio show in 2001 and I'm 99.9% sure that Queensryche didn't play that night.
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Great review Samsara, as always! Just for information, I guess Queensryche only played on Rock in Rio in 1991. I was on the IM show at Rock in Rio show in 2001 and I'm 99.9% sure that Queensryche didn't play that night.
You're right! It was Jan. 9, 2001 at the Foro Sol in Mexico City. That was the show I was thinking of. I'll adjust the write-up. Thank you!
I have all the non-original lineup tour dates and gig pages through 2005 saved locally, but not online!
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I missed the Maiden BNW tour, sadly. I was in college and I think it may have been a weeknight show in Chicago. To see QR, Halford (touring on the godly Resurrection album) and Maiden on the first full tour for a new record after their reunion, would have been incredible. All 3 bands were performing incredibly as well. I have a few QR and Maiden bootlegs from that tour (QR MSG/Maine and Maiden in Maine) that are multi-cam and look and sound so great.
One thing I disliked is that QR would tailor their sets when they'd open for Priest or Maiden. Play those songs regularly, rotate some in and out. Don't just play the metal songs when you're opening for a metal band. I do like that they had a good mix for that 45 minute set. Queen of the Reich, a few hits, a few new songs.
I loved Live Evolution at the time. Great picture quality, though I wish they had all of the songs included. If I remember right, the band may have had a choice of including all of the songs by sacrificing picture and sound quality. I used to watch that dvd all of the time. The Greatest Hits record was nice - it was remastered, so we had good sounding version of some of the older songs. The artwork is awesome. Not much else to say really,
I saw the Live Evolution tour in Chicago, and thankfully, it was the first of 2 or 3 nights. QR had a tendency to "change" the setlist by playing or not playing ONE additional song on those multi-night stands in a city. I attended the night where they closed the show with Queen of the Reich - I finally got to see them play it and hear Geoff sing it. That was such a cool setlist, with the show staged in suites.
Loved this era of the band and still do - I have great memories of seeing them a handful of times when they toured for Q2K.
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For me, the Greatest Hits album and Live Evolution are inextricably tied together, so great to see the post encompass both of them.
The timing of these two albums was pretty interesting for me personally. I graduated law school in the spring of 2001. Those who haven't gone to law school (which would be most of you) wouldn't necessarily know what commonly happens next. In most school programs, once you graduate, you leave and go off to wherever "home" will be to start your career. Not so for lawyers. Although there are exceptions, most people stick around on campus to study all summer long with their classmates for the bar exam, which takes place at the end of the summer. Basically, it is a few months of intense study and review for one of the most challenging exams in the American education system. The study time typically consists of attending prep classes all day during the week, with practice examinations and further self-study all waking moments in between. It is a stressful time, but one that can be a lot of fun as well.
Thus, I found myself spending that summer in Malibu, California before moving back home. I had been listening to the latest album, Q2K. And while I didn't love, as noted above, I thought it was a decent album, and Queensryche were still one of my top bands. I remember learning at some point during that summer that Queensryche were going to be filming/taping their upcoming Seattle shows for a live release. Coincidentally, that was just a few days after I would finish the bar exam. This is relevant because another thing that is common for law school graduates is taking a long overdue vacation after taking the bar exam and before starting the first full-time law job. I can't remember exactly how the conversation went, but my wife suggested traveling to the Pacific Northwest. This coincided perfectly with the Queensryche show, and she was onboard for going to one of the shows. Related to that, I have one more tangent to go off on to set the stage...
An interesting thing about going to school in Malibu is the interesting and rather unique mix of students at Pepperdine. I won't go too far afield and delve into the demographics of all of that. But one unexpected product of that was an older woman that was in my class that I had gotten to know fairly well in my three years at school who was a long-time resident of Malibu and was VERY connected in the entertainment industry. During that time, her husband was still a very big name in Hollywood. She previously worked in the industry as well, and it turns out that law was her third or fourth career at that point. Anyhow, one sunny afternoon during that summer, she overheard me talking to a friend of mine about how I was thinking about heading up to Oregon and Washington after the bar exam. She came over and said that she and her husband had a "nice little place" up in Whistler, Canada, and that my wife and I were welcome to stay there for a few days if we wanted to. Well, this "nice little place" turned out to be a huge 3-story house right on the lake in Whistler that was a good deal nicer than any place I had ever stayed on a vacation up to that point. Yeah, needless to say, we took her up on the offer. That was a fantastic trip for my wife and I that ended up morphing into: visiting some friends in Portland, driving up to Seattle for some fun in that city, night 2 of the Live Evolution shows, driving up to spend 5 days or so (I don't remember specifically how long) at the house in Whistler, road-tripping across western Canada and staying in various bed-and-breakfasts along the way, camping in Banff, seeing Calgary, and doing a big loop back to Seattle before coming home.
I give all of that background because it was such a cool time in my life, and Queensryche was the soundtrack to all of that. I had picked up the Greatest Hits album not long before that, and I remember in particular having Jet City Woman blasting on the rental car stereo as we first came into Seattle at the start of the trip, as well as that album playing on the drive into Whistler. For me personally, I had the bonus tracks from that album already since I owned the Japanese import of HITNF and whichever single the full band version of Someone Else? appeared on (I think it was Bridge). But since HITNF was one of the CDs that was in my CD wallet that had been stolen from my car earlier that year, it was nice to reacquire that song as part of the purchase. But basically, there wasn't anything new on it, and I picked it up just to be a completest as far as having everything from my second-favorite band. As I said in a post above, I think the track selection, including the bonus tracks, was about as good as one could ask for. While we could quibble all day about individual tracks and whether they could have picked a different song from a particular album, I think they did a good job of picking a good variety of solid songs.
As for Live Evolution, I have mixed feelings. The show itself was cool, and it was great to be there. But it was very different. Our friends from Portland drove up with us and had lunch with us down by the Wharf. I remember having lunch at Red Robbin on the Wharf. I don't remember why, but I was waiting outside for the others for a few minutes at one point, and this tall lanky dude comes strolling up to the restaurant in jeans and a Mindcrime jacket, with a crowd of similarly decked out folks. I figured that, of course, they were there for the QR shows, so I went up and introduced myself and chatted for a few minutes. Turned out that it was Fozzy, and he told me he did some work for the band, although I don't believe he got specific and I didn't know the name "Fozzy" at the time, so I didn't truly understand who he was until later.
Later that day, we showed up at the Moore Theater for the show. Anticipation was high. I had learned that the prior evening featured a significant sampling of Mindcrime for the Mindcrime suite, and that tonight's show would likely not have any Mindcrime songs at all. That was perfectly fine with me. I had personally seen it in its entirety on the Building Empires tour, and I had watched/listened to Livecrime so many times that I just didn't feel like I needed to see many of those songs live at that stage, and I was happy to be getting something completely different.
We had seats in the balcony, and it was LOUD up there! So much so that my wife took a break for a couple of songs halfway during Queensryche's set just to rest her ears. Even the opening act, Second Coming, were really loud.
The show itself was cool, but as noted above, different. The band sounded pretty good. The song selection was pretty good. The stage was rather sparse, but felt classy and looked pretty stunning with the huge metallic tri-riches on either side of the drum kit, and the huge lighting arch. The band's energy was good. But it was somehow just kind of different, and I couldn't put my finger on why. One thing that was different and odd that may have contributed to that was the fact that Geoff walked off stage at the end of almost every song and then walked back on at the beginning of the next. That was apparently done for the cutting of the live clips for the DVD, but it was kinda weird in person. It was also a bit strange just because, other than Geoff, each band member really seemed to almost exclusively stay in his own little space. This was especially true of Wilton. Although he was energetic, it was like somebody drew a little 10 foot circle, and he never, ever strayed outside of it.
The classics that were played were a nice treat. Queen of the Ryche was good, even if it wasn't quite the original form. The heavier, plodding, downtuned version of The Lady Wore Black sounded REALLY cool. And London, a favorite of mine from Rage, was an unexpected treat. The only disappointment with London was the vocals. I didn't really appreciate that all the layering on the studio album made it impossible to pull off convincingly in a live setting, even with backing vocals being piped in. And as badly as Geoff missed the notes on the part right after the solo, such a crucial climax of the song, I was certain they would patch that up in the studio before releasing the album--and VERY surprised when they didn't, especially given all the touch up that WAS done.
As to that, it was very noticeable upon buying the release that there was a lot of work done on Live Evolution prior to its release. Some of it was done live at the time, in terms of vocals, effects, and other tracks being piped in at the show itself. Some of that was obvious at the shows, and some of it was only obvious afterward. Even at the show, it was obvious at times that Geoff was lip synching parts, or that he was singing a harmony, while another Geoff being piped in over the P/A was singing the "lead" part. And there are other things I remember from the show that ended up being different on the live release. Another that sticks out in my mind was that part of Geoff's monolog during Empire was cut. To this day, I have no idea why. But I recently ran it by someone else who wasn't at this show, but saw them on the tour, just to make sure I wasn't misremembering. He remembered Geoff saying the words during that song on the tour that I remember being said at the Live Evolution tour that were cut from the release. Anyhow...
Overall, it was a good show, and I was glad to have made the trip. One thing I haven't addressed yet that I feel obligated to touch on is Kelly's playing. At the time, I was fine with Kelly being in the band. He handled the new material well. In particular, I remember Breakdown, Liquid Sky, and Burning Man really coming alive and sounding good at that show. But I also liked his work on the older CDG-era material. And I wasn't bothered at all that he didn't play Chris's solos note-for-note. I defended him, and later Mike Stone, for putting their own spin on those. I also liked his energy, notwithstanding that it led to a few unintentional comical moments onstage. There was one song in particular that I recall. I don't remember off the top of my head which song it was, but you should be able to spot it on the DVD from this description: There is a point where Kelly is hunched over at the front of the state while playing, and a bunch of fans are reaching out to him and one pats him on the head while he is playing. At the end of his solo, he hops backwards back to his spot, and it almost looks like he is losing his balance just as the camera cuts away to one of the other band members. Well, he DOES lose his balance and comes within a hair of falling completely on his back before recovering at the last second. I wish the camera hadn't jumped away so quickly! :lol
One other thing I remember from that show was Scott Ian from Anthrax running around the theater with a camera crew of his own, recording little snippets before and during the show. At the time, he was hosting a show on MTV, and they recorded some segments from his show where he debuted a song or two from the show (they played Right Side, and I think they did one other one as well). At one point, he was recording a segment a few feet away from us by our seats in the balcony.
This was my only exposure to the band for this album/tour cycle. It was different from what I had seen from them in the past. This was clearly a different band now, and like many, I didn't understand or truly appreciate the differences until much later. But it was a good show and rewarding experience.
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Oh, one more thing: I mentioned a few changes in arrangement and/or tuning for some of the older songs. They changed up the arrangement on some of the Mindcrime stuff a bit as well, and I think the effect was good. I know hearing a suite can be jarring to some fans, but I urge you to give it a chance and try to listen with an open mind if you find yourself in that category. I think that, for example, splitting Spreading the Disease with Requiem in between was a cool little touch for the live presentation of the suite, even if it is a bit odd in terms of flow of the actual story if you know what each song represents and how it actually fits into the story.
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At this point QR were dying in my eyes. I didn't bother with the greatest hits. Live Evolution I did buy on DVD and enjoyed it. Not played it in over a decade though, should dig it out again.
I think I've got the cd too but may never have played it. I remember being a little disappointed that there weren't as many tracks on the DVD.
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For me, the GH didn't matter since I already had everything and the artwork (altho very cool, IMO) didn't warrant me buying the CD.
I did however go catch 2 of the shows in June 2000 - one of the LA shows, and the one in San Diego. Was nice to see them again, shaking up the setlist a little, although not clearly as much as I thought they did when looking at the setlists now. Nothing really stands out that much from these shows, aside from the fact that this marked the start of them playing clubs the same size (at that time) that DT did.
Then in September, I caught them at the San Diego show where they opened for Maiden (the only time I've ever seen Maiden or Halford solo). Great bill and QR definitely put on a great show. Given the bands they were playing with, they put together a concise, energetic and appropriate setlist that almost did completely away with the new material in favor of earlier material (PL and back).
I remember reading all about the shows at the Moore and wished I could've gone, but it didn't happen. Definitely was a bummer when the shows weren't completely different, but what can you do? I am glad at least that they included all the songs played at the two shows for Live Evolution. A good representation of the band at the time, though not the greatest live album ever. Never picked up the video version since I'm not a video guy and the release was shorter than the CD version. Biggest disappointment was London - love the song, but as someone else said, the backing vocals just don't work, when compared with the original studio recording.
The last show I saw of that era was the Anaheim gig in November 2001. It was very disappointing how short the setlist was given that it was an evening with gig. Not much that I recall from the show specifically, although I think the guys were pretty much going through the motions by that time. What I do remember specifically was bumping into Kelly before the gig. Being at the House of Blues, there's a restaurant and gift shop downstairs. I was heading to the restaurant, but saw Kelly casually looking at stuff in the gift shop and tried to say hello and a brief comment. Something was clearly not right since he pretty much ignored me and walked away. Of course, that would be the last time I would see him as a part of QR, but I didn't know it then.
I have to echo what Bosk said regarding Kelly's version of the guitar solos. I too don't expect someone else to play the song exactly the same, and like it when they put their own spin on it, within reason, which I thought Kelly did a decent job of for the most part. And I like that they rearranged things a bit too. The aforementioned Spreading the Disease/Requiem worked well, and I didn't mind the reworked intro to Revolution Calling, although I missed Anarchy X.
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One other thing I remember from that show was Scott Ian from Anthrax running around the theater with a camera crew of his own, recording little snippets before and during the show. At the time, he was hosting a show on MTV, and they recorded some segments from his show where he debuted a song or two from the show (they played Right Side, and I think they did one other one as well). At one point, he was recording a segment a few feet away from us by our seats in the balcony.
I recorded this when it aired. It was for VH-1's Rock Show (the same show that Geoff debuted the video for Right Side on the year before, which I also have recorded). They showed snippets of Right Side, Take Hold, and QoTR. I would've preferred they show a full song instead of using that time to air the music video for Jet City Woman. :P
As far as Live Evolution goes, I initially didn't like Kelly Gray doing his own thing with some of DeGarmo's solos. I've since come around to not minding and even enjoying some of his stuff. I think Wilton's solo in Hit The Black was more of a head scratcher for me than some of what Gray did.
Looking back, I wish they'd included more of the show on the DVD. Especially the Q2k material.
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I never got the Greatest Hits, nothing new there for me, and at the time of the release it was too expensive to buy it for just completist reasons.
Live Evolution I enjoyed quite a bit, although I only have the audio version. I thought it was cool that they had songs from every period of their career. And arranging them in suites and shaking things up a bit kept it interesting. I never minded Kelly's playing either, I thought it was good for what it was.
I remember being surprised at how good Geoff sounded most of the time. I got the impression from Promised Land on that he began to struggle vocally, especially in the higher register, but here he sounds really good.
This meant that the band would have to re-record in-studio, or rely on the second night.
Does anyone know if they tampered with the vocals a lot in the studio?
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Does anyone know if they tampered with the vocals a lot in the studio?
Officially, I have no idea. But if you listen to Live Evolution, there are some cringe-worthy moments that should have been. So, I've always believed there were a minimum amount of vocal touch-ups done to it. The short turnaround time from recording to release (two months) also supports that conclusion.
FYI for everyone -- the write-up on Side Projects and Band Dysfunction (2001-2002) will be posted tomorrow morning. There's really not a whole lot to talk about, so I figured I'd do two shorter ones this week, and then drop the Tribe era on everyone Monday, where there's more to discuss.
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As far as Live Evolution goes, I initially didn't like Kelly Gray doing his own thing with some of DeGarmo's solos. I've since come around to not minding and even enjoying some of his stuff.
The problem I have with it, and always will have, is that DeGarmo (and Wilton) largely wrote thoughtful, well crafted, memorable solos. I can just about sing along to all the solos on Mindcrime and Empire, and QR were, up to that point, very much a "put on a show, but present the material the way it was written" kind of band.
Two guitarists are always going to struggle to play a solo exactly the same way and I don't mind someone putting a little bit of their own spin on one, but when you take a solo as well constructed as the one to Jet City Woman, ruin its flow with brainless noodling at the start and then fuck up the ending not only once (the version he apparently played live) but twice (the dubbed version released) then it's hard not to think that Gray simply didn't have any basic respect for the material.
Tbh, after how bad Q2k was, buying Live Evolution wasn't even a vague consideration and whilst Kelly Gray was still in the band I had no further interest in QR.
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After the (in my opinion) horrendous HITNF I couldn't believe how much I actually liked Y2K! I thought there were some really good songs on there and it sort of half restored my opinion of the band.
The greatest hits I never bothered with. To me it's like buying an Iron Maiden 'Best of' or 'greatest hits'. If you don't buy the albums when you're a fan of the band, then don't bother. I didn't buy the DT one either.
Live Evolution was something of an odd batch to me. I loved all the older classics from the EP to Rage for Order. The later repertoire I couldn't get into much.
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Side Projects & Band Dysfunction (2001-2002)
Spys4Darwin (2001)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31T6NOYb%2ByL.jpg)
Vocals – Vin Dombrowski
Guitars and background vocals – Chris DeGarmo
Bass – Mike Inez
Drums – Sean Kinney
In 2001, Chris DeGarmo made news once again, this time for his new band, Spys4Darwin, with Sean Kinney and Mike Inez from Alice in Chains, and Vin Dombrowski of Sponge. The group self-released a six-song EP called microfiche in 2001, and played a festival gig in Seattle. The music is hard rock, moody at times, alternative at times, with some cool vocal harmonies. DeGarmo and Kinney wrote most of the music, while Dombrowski handled most (could be all, not sure) of the lyrics. The band was looking to do a full-length record after that, but plans fizzled.
It had a mixed reception at the time, but it has aged well and developed a bit of a cult following over the years.
Samsara's top tracks – Insomnia Station, Dashboard Jesus, Chain Letter
Geoff Tate (2002)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/10/Geoff20Tate.jpg/220px-Geoff20Tate.jpg)
Lead vocals – Geoff Tate
Guitar – Jeff Carrell
Guitar – Scott Moughton
Drums – Evan Schiller
Keyboards – Howard Chillcott
Bass – Chris Fox
In 2002, Geoff Tate released his first solo album (self-titled). Instead of working with more high profile musicians like DeGarmo had on his project, Tate enlisted the help of local Seattle musicians to create a very eclectic record. Part hard rock, part pop, part prog and part soul, Tate went completely opposite of what most fans expected. Generally, while strikingly different (mostly) from Queensryche, many fans dug various songs on the album and still speak of it in high regard.
Tate toured in summer 2002 to support the album, playing most of the record, and a smattering of Queensryche rarities, including “Hero,” “spOOL,” “Gonna Get Close to You,” and “Della Brown.” The vibe was very laid back, and most of the Queensryche tracks received a tweak in arrangement, making the presentation pretty interesting.
The kick-off show for the tour was at the Experience Music Project (EMP) museum, in the “Sky Church” portion of the building. Michael Wilton's side project, Soulbender, opened the show, and Wilton and a couple of his new bandmates joined Tate for a cover of “Jet City Woman” to end the show. Alan White of YES was supposed to join them, and Tate called out “Alan, oh, Alan!” wondering where he got to. Turns out, White was in the bar, and...missed the appearance.
Samsara's top-tracks: Over Me, Passenger, Off the TV
Note: Soulbender's debut album wouldn't appear until 2004, and they did not go on the tour with Tate. So I am not going to do a write-up on it at this time. It's worth checking out if you like late 90s-era metal, and non-operatic, rougher vocal (Nick Pollock of My Sister's Machine and an early version of Alice in Chains).
Slave to the System (2002)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Slave_to_the_System_-_Slave_to_the_System_cover.jpg/220px-Slave_to_the_System_-_Slave_to_the_System_cover.jpg)
Lead vocals & guitar – Damon Johnson
Guitar & vocals – Scott Heard
Guitar & vocals – Kelly Gray
Bass – Roman Glick
Drums – Scott Rockenfield
Slave to the System was billed as a “supergroup” at the time with the connection between Brother Cane (Johnson & Glick) and Queensryche. The result was an energetic self-titled album of modern hard rock with a slight southern bent, given Damon Johnson's influences. The band self-released its debut album in 2001, and then got an official label release on Spitfire Records in 2006 with a slightly different track listing (a track or two was added, and one was removed).
If memory serves, Slave to the System played a couple of shows in 2002 (showcases), and again in 2004 with Soulbender in the Seattle area (they did a co-headline at some West Seattle dive bar). But Slave to the System finally did their only proper tour in early 2006. It was notable (we'll mention it later) because at the time, Queensryche was readying another album, and Rockenfield was pulled off the road by Queensryche and the band (SttS) had a fill-in drummer for the later dates on the tour.
Samsara's top tracks – Slave to the System, Disinfected, Will You Be There
Summer 2002 Band Dysfunction
One of the low points (unfortunately) of Summer 2002 was while Tate was on tour with his solo band. Tate went live on WMMS radio to promote his solo album and tour, and essentially called the Queensryche situation a dysfunction, saying the members only spoke through lawyers. (I am paraphrasing here.) The backlash was so severe, that the members of Queensryche (who were working on songs for a new record back in Seattle) fired back at Tate and people wondered if the band would break up.
A short time later, a message was posted on Queensryche's website titled “Thank you WMMS,” claiming that the band had met and connected again and were on the same page. A lot of speculation was done online that it was...mostly BS. However, the band announced plans for a new album, including the fact that they would be using outside writers to assist (something that did not go over well) them.
At the time, I reached out to Michael Wilton to do an interview on the state of Queensryche and his new project, Soulbender. The article can be read here: https://breakdownroom.net/wilton-fall2002.html
For those that don't care to read it, in a nutshell, Wilton basically said that Tate was turning Queensryche into an adult contemporary band, and Wilton preferred a more aggressive and heavy approach and would continue pushing for that. Wilton's comments certainly created some tension as the band pushed forward with another album.
Next up: Tribe (2002-2003)
p.s. This is a bit of an in-between. On Monday, we'll have a lengthier post on Tribe, and get back to a more standard once-a-week schedule. I just didn't think there was enough here to make a worthy "main" discography post, but it was needed to set up the Tribe era.
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I own the Tate album and SttS album. I listened to the former maybe 2 or 3 times and shelved it. I didn't really connect with the direction Tate was going on this. All in all, it's fine if he wanted to go a different direction on his solo work. But it wasn't a direction I particularly liked, and if I wanted to hear that type of music, there are other artists who do it full time that do it better.
I got a copy of SttS way late in the game. I'm sure I listened to it once, but I don't recall anything from it. Will have to give it a listen.
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I never really cared for any of those side-projects and I didn't know some of them even existed back at that time.
The only one I listened to more thoroughly was Tate's solo effort. I never owned the record but a friend of mine spun it a couple of times. But I didn't really found it interesting so I didn't buy it.
Was it at that time that Tate mentioned in interviews that he doesn't like metal (anymore)?
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I sold my copy of the Tate solo album. I only really loved Helpless, and still do. That song has great vocals and great music. I listed it on ebay for $1.50 around the time that he was removed as QR's singer and a few Tate fans had a little bidding war and boosted the price up to $3.50 or $4.00. :lol
I never really explored any of the QR side projects - they're one of those bands where I loved the music that they released as QR, but the outside albums weren't my thing at all.
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I never really explored any of the QR side projects - they're one of those bands where I loved the music that they released as QR, but the outside albums weren't my thing at all.
The thing that sounds so cliche, but it is true, is that Queensryche is one of those bands that are very much a sum of its parts. Individually, there are some good moments, but it's when they are together and focused that they have that appeal to them. If you listen to everything Scott has done (Slave to the System, his work with Paul Speer) you hear that distinct drumming flavor. With Tate, you hear the varied vocal stylings and that distinctive voice. With Chris, you hear the harmonies, you hear the interesting progressions and chords, with Michael, you hear the chunky riffs. And Ed is way underrated as a player.
These projects were all something I enjoyed, but it clearly spelled it out for me that Queensryche needed its parts to fully appeal to me (as much as I liked some of it).
The side projects are special to me. I was in attendance for Tate's first solo show at the Catwalk, and I was at the Seattle show at the EMP later with Tate's solo band and Soulbender's debut performance. Both gigs were really fun. The latter was memorable because I was with my wife, and less than a year before we'd tie the knot. So I have good memories of that trip. But I did dig the music.
Slave to the System I really got into at the time. I had started a fledgling website called MusicInsight in 2001, and interviewed Scott and Damon a few times. I also got connected with Spitfire Records a bit, and mentioned to Scott that if they wanted a record deal, Spitfire might be a good choice. He asked for the contact, and I gave it to him. Ultimately, they ended up signing. I like to think I helped a little, even if it was just passing along the name and phone number of the rep I worked with a lot. I really enjoyed SttS, and wish I could have been at a few of their shows...it just wasn't meant to be.
Out of all the projects, I really think Soulbender had the best shot, but I think it was a matter of them not being able/willing to go out on the road and slug it out in the clubs. Michael stayed committed to Queensryche, because obviously, it was his bread and butter. But had Michael opted not to, and Soulbender got on some tours, I think they may have developed into something.
This was a really rough time for Queensryche. I have to be honest, I remember contacting Michael about doing the interview. And one of his people (I think it was Joe O'Brien, who had yet to start Rat Pak Records) told me Michael absolutely wanted to do it. It took a month or so, but I finally got that interview done, and I was shocked as anyone at what Michael said.
I posted it, and it did have some impact with fans talking. Ultimately, a few months later, some of the music news outlets referenced what I wrote a few times in various reports and interviews with the band. But generally speaking, it was uncomfortable. But then we heard Chris was back with them, and That was a pretty exciting time...
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So to clarify, Kelly was fired for his excessive drug and alcohol abuse while on tour, correct? Was there anything else that contributed to his dismissal?
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So to clarify, Kelly was fired for his excessive drug and alcohol abuse while on tour, correct? Was there anything else that contributed to his dismissal?
I'm not sure they ever officially announced anything, honestly. MOstly what is known is from what Geoff said in the liner notes of the expanded edition of Q2k, and speculation given the deaths of crew members and the huge backlash Kelly received from fans. There really wasn't anything I can remember that made Kelly's departure official.
If I recall, during Tribe, Kelly said something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "I heard Chris was back and that will likely do them some good. There really wasn't an effort to match our schedules, but that's OK, I'm always busy!" (again, total paraphrase from memory). But that wasn't any official statement, just some media outlet speaking to Kelly after-the-fact.
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Ah yes - the side projects. Liked 2 of them, couldn't get into one of them.
Spys4Darwin: to begin with, what an awful name, or at least the way it's written. I don't get it. Anyway, I got the EP and I gave it 2 or 3 listens at most, but couldn't get into it whatsoever. Dunno if I still even have my copy of it. :P
GT's solo album: I actually like most of it. There's a few tracks that I couldn't get into, but overall I actually liked the album - in particular the song Helpless. So much so that I was willing to go catch the last 3 shows of the tour. Of course, the bait of him including a bunch of reworked rare QR tracks in the setlist sealed the deal for me. And the shows were really enjoyable. I really liked the new interpretations of the QR tracks, and they fit in pretty well with the solo tracks. The final show in San Diego was memorable, first off because of how small the venue was that they were playing (don't think it held more than 300 people), including a stage that didn't really allow for any of the guys to move around at all. But what I liked most was the way the band changed things up a bit at that show - not sure if it was end of tour hijinx or because they were worried about the curfew. While the 2 previous shows seemed to be exactly the same, for whatever reason, they sped up at least part of Lady Jane, and did a few other things differently too; they also dropped the last 2 songs of the encore. Another cool thing was that I was turned on to the Swordfish soundtrack due to them playing the song Unafraid before the show started - to me a very cool track, and I just had to ask the soundman what the song was and where I could get it. Have since picked up a few Paul Oakenfold albums as a result.
Slave to the System: I picked up the original version and thought it was good. Worth listening to several times, although it's been forever since I've listened to it. Didn't even know about the reissue until at least a few years after it had been released. Picked it up for the new tracks, altho I was surprised to see Scotty Heard's name removed from the credits. Any clue as to why that was Brian?
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I'll see if any of the solo albums are on Spotify to check out.
Samsara, I have to say this is one of the best threads on the forum right now. For some reason I always thought Tribe followed Empire.
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Very informative Sam. I'm going to check out the Darwin album. Sponge's Plowed is my favorite "90's" track.
I've never heard of this project.
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I was unaware of Spys4Darwin. I'll be checking that one out when I get the chance.
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[Trying to catch up (backtrack) after visiting New Mexico for about a week. I want so much to drive 85 MPH again....]
Back to 'Q2K': I get the title, but it was awfully lame. An actual picture of the band would have been nice. I did not know any of the Kelly Gray backstories. Gave my version a listen on the flight there. It was like most other bands of the decade: a bunch of 4-6 minute tracks that have their moments, but something is generally missing.
Back to the 'Greatest Hits': would have started with 'Warning', traded 'Another Rainy Night' and 'Real World' for 'Queen of the Reich' and 'Bridge'. The expanded 'Someone Else' was a real treat at the time. The cover was awfully bland, not something that would jump out to the casual consumer. BUT.....I still have my unused band bumper sticker/window decal :D
'Live Evolution': received as a Christmas gift, and listened to it once or twice. As much as I wanted to like it, there's just so much that didn't work for me. From reading this thread, I now know why.
Spys4Darwin: who thunk up that name? Anyhoo, I somehow heard it once back in the day, just tried to get through a few tracks over the past couple of days. Not that it's horrible, but it's just not my cup of tea.
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I had no idea the dysfunction went that far back. I figured problems started around 2006 or so. Now I can't believe they stayed together as long as they did.
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Spys4Darwin...homeless guy outside studio asked the band to watch his little shelter outside while he was away. His name was Darwin. Somebody in band said " i guess that means we are spies for Darwin." The name stuck.
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Darwin Brown?
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I bought S4D earlier today (had no idea it existed prior to reading this)...immediate reflex is that I like it less than any of their "home" bands, but I'll give another couple of spins tomorrow.
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By now we're entering in the phase where I lost interest with Queensryche, but I just wanted to say that these write-ups are so well done that I'll probably stick around, even if only as a reader, until the end. Great job! :tup
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Great job Samsara! Thank You! I was also unaware of those two albums, have to check that out! It's a pleasure to read that thread :tup
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Thanks all. Appreciate the kind words and glad folks are finding them interesting. I have to admit, I've struggled the last couple of entries a bit, as my main interest is the original lineup. I just don't like to go back and revisit negative things any longer. So, I am trying to put as positive a spin on stuff as I can moving forward.
Starting post-Q2k, the story gets a little frustrating, although I implore you to look past it and focus as best you can on the music itself. I'll cover the history, but honestly, there are some gems, song-wise on the remainder of the records, regardless of who wrote them. I'm going to try and focus on the music as much as possible after the Tribe write-up, but there's no getting around the drama surrounding the band if I want to do a complete job. But please don't let that drive you away from checking out the tunes. I'll try and highlight the ones (and why) I'd recommend, but still try to keep as neutral a tone as possible, if that makes sense.
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I actually don't mind the drama of the band. It really brings life to the record that was made around it.
Similar to how you feel a better understanding of the album "Rumours" by Fleetwood Mac when you hear of all the band turmoil surrounding that record.
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I actually don't mind the drama of the band. It really brings life to the record that was made around it.
Similar to how you feel a better understanding of the album "Rumours" by Fleetwood Mac when you hear of all the band turmoil surrounding that record.
This is a good point but I'm not sure it applies to Queensryche. Part of the problem seems to be that there are different ideas of what the band should be. Fleetwood Mac had a shared musical vision but drama in their personal relationships, so it's a bit different.
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I actually don't mind the drama of the band. It really brings life to the record that was made around it.
Similar to how you feel a better understanding of the album "Rumours" by Fleetwood Mac when you hear of all the band turmoil surrounding that record.
This is a good point but I'm not sure it applies to Queensryche. Part of the problem seems to be that there are different ideas of what the band should be. Fleetwood Mac had a shared musical vision but drama in their personal relationships, so it's a bit different.
Yeah. I mean, Queensryche, after Q2k, had very different notions of what they wanted to do, artistically. Without delving much into it yet, since the Tribe write-up is next, Wilton wanted to go back to a heavier sound (and you can tell that in the riffs the songs Tribe has). Tate wanted to embrace a more...diverse sound that didn't rely on chunky riffs. So they butted heads. And on top of that, the personal relationships in the band further changed pushing people away from one another. It's an interesting time in their history that hopefully I'll do a decent job of re-describing here, without it being so negative.
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^
You are doing more than a decent job. One of the best I have come across (and that includes all things Queen) :tup
Also, do not get discouraged if comments somewhat dry up to your posts from here on in. I will be among many still reading, but other than following the drama of the past decade+, I only checked out the occasional youtube vid (including the cabaret disasters). 'Fandom' was on life support for many releases, basically ending with 'Tribe'.
[modified due to a lack of proper initial proofreading]
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I'll chime in once again regarding Q2K before we move onto Tribe - like I said a week ago, The Right side of my mind and Liquid sky are the highlights, both great songs. I also enjoy Falling down, How could I and Sacred ground. The rest is as lackluster as the weaker spots on Hear in the now frontier. However, while the less interesting songs on HITNF could have been cut off as just a few filler songs, this album is consisted of mostly average tunes.
The style itself is an extention of what the band went for on the previous album, maybe slightly hammered out in terms of attitude and production, but I didn't find the songs themselves as good.
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Interestingly, I had One Life stuck in my head for days after listening to Q2K last week. I liked the song just fine back then. But like the rest of the album, it quickly faded from memory. I had forgotten how good it actually is.
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I'm at the point in this thread where the music is secondary to what was/is going on within the band.
Is that wrong?
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^
You are doing more than a decent job. One of the best I have come across (and that includes all things Queen) :tup
Also, do not get discouraged if comments somewhat dry up to your posts from here on in. I will among many still reading, but other than reading about the drama of the past decade+, I only checked out the occasional youtube vid (including the cabaret disasters). 'Fandom' was on life support for many releases, basically ending with 'Tribe'.
Agreed. My interest pretty much dried up after Tribe as well. I didn't like how the DeGarmo situation was handled by the Tates (He's back! He's guesting on the European tour! Wait, he just collaborated in the studio! Well, he was only brought in as a session guy to help out and was never going to be back in the band). I was saddened by the fact that a band that seemed to be highly professional and very organized in their prime was reduced to absolute amateurish and ill-conceived tactics.
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I bought the Tate album on release day and it was such a let down. I haven't got anything positive to say about it. I think I played it twice. There was t even any great vocal stuff there that I remember. I wasn't expecting a metal album, but I thought there might be some rock in it.
I haven't heard a note of any of the other projects. I expected CDG's thing to be grungy.
Might try and track some stuff down on YouTube.
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Regardimg Q2K, I've only heard a few songs off Youtube, because the album isn't on Spotify and I can't find the CD anywhere either (though that may not be a huge loss :lol). I like the Live Evolution versions of Falling Down, Liquid Sky and especially The Right Side of My Mind though. I'm not crazy about Gray's take on the old solos or his wah abuse, and Tate sounds a little patchy here and there, but I like the arrangement of Revolution Calling, and the heavier version of the unplugged rendition of The Lady Wore Black is my favorite version of the song.
I haven't delved deep into the side projects, but the few songs I've heard from Tate's solo debut weren't bad for their genre. Sadly the Spys4Darwin stuff was nothing too special, although I like both QR and AIC.
If I recall, during Tribe, Kelly said something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "I heard Chris was back and that will likely do them some good. There really wasn't an effort to match our schedules, but that's OK, I'm always busy!" (again, total paraphrase from memory). But that wasn't any official statement, just some media outlet speaking to Kelly after-the-fact.
Interesting, because I found the news story where Kelly said that, but he also talked about how he would've wanted to make another Mindcrime, because that's what the fans wanted: https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/former-queensr-che-guitarist-on-his-departure-a-band-shouldn-t-ignore-its-past/ Not sure whether he was referring to an actual sequel (which of course would happen a few years down the line) or just doing something in vein of classic QR, probably with a conceptual twist.
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Regardimg Q2K, I've only heard a few songs off Youtube, because the album isn't on Spotify and I can't find the CD anywhere either (though that may not be a huge loss :lol).
It's on Spotify (unless it's not in your region (not sure if spotify has region controls))
https://open.spotify.com/album/1EfzUKbKuDZKxa2rpiJzt8
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Thanks all. Appreciate the kind words and glad folks are finding them interesting. I have to admit, I've struggled the last couple of entries a bit, as my main interest is the original lineup. I just don't like to go back and revisit negative things any longer. So, I am trying to put as positive a spin on stuff as I can moving forward.
Starting post-Q2k, the story gets a little frustrating, although I implore you to look past it and focus as best you can on the music itself. I'll cover the history, but honestly, there are some gems, song-wise on the remainder of the records, regardless of who wrote them. I'm going to try and focus on the music as much as possible after the Tribe write-up, but there's no getting around the drama surrounding the band if I want to do a complete job. But please don't let that drive you away from checking out the tunes. I'll try and highlight the ones (and why) I'd recommend, but still try to keep as neutral a tone as possible, if that makes sense.
I think you are doing a really great job. I expect the next couple of records to not gain that much attention and favorable posts but that has nothing to do with your presentation of them, it's just the material. If you're doing a whole discography you have to speak about the duds also and it's not that QR is the only band with subpar releases (look at the Iron Maiden thread for the two Blaze records :D).
You have a lot of background knowledge and it's good that you share it with us in your writeups, makes it much clearer why some records are what they are and why some decisions were made, that left us fans scratching their heads. Keep it up. :tup
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^^ Exactly! :tup
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I'm at the point in this thread where the music is secondary to what was/is going on within the band.
Is that wrong?
I'm in the same boat, so I'd say that it's not wrong. At this point, the drama going on with the band is more interesting than the music they were making at the time.
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The Making of Tribe (2002-2003)
Fresh off the tension in summer 2002, Queensryche found itself at a crossroads. Kelly Gray was not a part of things any longer (there was no official statement as far as I can recall, the band just moved on). Michael Wilton, Eddie Jackson, and Scott Rockenfield had been writing all summer for the next Queensryche album, and once Geoff Tate returned from his solo tour, the four started to put the material the three musicians wrote with Tate's lyrical vision (and initially, some ideas from Jeff Carrell, guitarist from Tate's solo band, the direction of which set Wilton off a bit – see last entry's link to my article with Wilton). The singer kept a journal on the road, “taking the pulse” of society (paraphrasing) in a post- 9/11 world, in preparation for writing lyrics.
In addition, session guitarist Mike Stone was brought in to help collaborate on the project, and help connect the band and Tate a bit. Stone was unknown to the band, but was suggested by (I believe it was Lars Sorenson, but I could be wrong) management and label personnel.
At some point in fall 2002, however, Chris DeGarmo was contacted by Adam Kasper or Scott Olson (most believe it was one of the two) who was working with Queensryche on the record. DeGarmo found out about the theme Tate was working on, and some of the music his old bandmates were composing, and eventually, reunited with Queensryche in the studio (it is unknown who actually did the reaching out, although with Olson and Kasper being friends of DeGarmo, it is highly likely one of them arranged a meeting).
After some initial sessions, the band found their chemistry was intact, and the five original members of Queensryche set to work on the record.
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/tribe-band-1.jpg)
Tribe (2003)
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/tribe.jpg)
Lead vocals – Geoff Tate
Lead & rhythm guitars – Michael Wilton
Bass – Eddie Jackson
Drums – Scott Rockenfield
Additional musicians:
Chris DeGarmo – Lead & rhythm guitars
Mike Stone – Guitars
Produced by Queensryche
Engineered by Scott Olson
Mixed by Adam Kasper
Background
Initially, it appeared to the public that DeGarmo was ready to rejoin his bandmates on an official basis. He wrote three songs musically on his own: “Falling Behind,” “The Art of Life” and “Doin' Fine.” He also made songwriting contributions to the existing tracks “Open” and “Desert Dance.” A fourth song, “Justified” was also written by DeGarmo and being worked on in the sessions.
A New Year's Eve 2002 gig was booked in Anchorage, Alaska, that was allegedly supposed to include DeGarmo (it was not marketed as such, but DeGarmo was writing with them at the time). That didn't happen, however, and it is unknown why. So, Mike Stone, who the band was working with earlier in the year, stepped in for DeGarmo on short notice and made his live debut with the band.
The timeline gets a little fuzzy from there. It appears DeGarmo continued working with the band throughout winter 2003, and it was originally announced that DeGarmo would rejoin the band for its summer European dates in support of Tribe, starting in June. DeGarmo took part in a lengthy photo shoot for the record and all indications (at that time) was that he was back in the band, although there was nothing posted to that effect (except that summer European swing).
Something happened in the studio, however, that scuttled those plans and a more public reunion. Allegedly, DeGarmo and Tate were a bit at odds in regard to the vocal arrangements on the record. In the past, Chris would suggest certain ways for Tate to sing the songs (truth be told, DeGarmo had always worked hand-in-hand to shape vocal melodies and arrangements for Queensryche), and Tate would try a variety of things before they settled on something they both liked. For Tribe, however, Tate was allegedly not open to that sort of creative collaboration, leading to some tension between Chris and Geoff, which ultimately led to Chris leaving the sessions entirely. (Again, this is pieced together from various accounts of different individuals involved.) There may have been some other factors involved, but the gist of it was -- Chris realized that the situation was not good for him, and moved on.
This left Queensryche in a bit of a bind, and the release of Tribe (which was scheduled for June) was pushed back slightly to July. (It was delayed a few times in 2003, actually.) The songs with music completed and recorded that DeGarmo wrote or helped to write were used for the record, but “Justified” (which was entirely written by DeGarmo, including lyrics) was left unfinished and off the album. Stone was brought back in, and he contributed one song, “Losing Myself,” and he added a slide guitar solo to “Rhythm of Hope.” (I assume this tune was meant for DeGarmo to add the slide to, given his proficiency with and past use of the slide, and wasn't recorded when DeGarmo left.)
Ultimately, to meet deadlines, the record was pushed through, and likely wasn't fully completed. Allegedly, solos Michael Wilton had planned for certain songs (“The Great Divide” was one) were not recorded, and it was rumored that the song “Blood” had a second guitar part that was never recorded at all (Chris was allegedly going to work on it).
Note: Wilton debuted a solo for “The Great Divide” at a show in St. Louis in support of the album in 2003. In the minds of fans, this helped solidify the rumors that the music for Tribe wasn't quite finished.
Tribe was submitted to the label, and DeGarmo was digitally eliminated from the band photos that were shot for it. The record was credited to Queensryche as a four piece, with DeGarmo and Stone being thanked for their contributions to it.
Songwriting
The writing for Tribe began more than a year before the record was finally released and heavily featured Michael Wilton and Scott Rockenfield. Wilton received writing credits on half the album's tracks (same as DeGarmo). Rockenfield and Jackson had a number of credits as well. Tate was credited on every song for his lyrics. Stone was credited for the music on the one track he wrote.
Stylistically, the songs Tribe reflect the time period in hard rock. Chunky riffs, and mostly mid-tempo cuts that feature some acoustic instruments and some atmosphere. (The one outlier being “Losing Myself” which is more of a pop rock song that was allegedly added to fill up space instead of “Justified,” which wasn't finished when DeGarmo left.) Lyrically, as mentioned early, Tribe was based on Geoff Tate's notes on society on his travels across the United States in 2002. The quality of those lyrics obviously vary depending on the listener. But of note is certainly “Falling Behind,” which comments on religious wars; and the title track, which has an element of Tate's more vague storytelling style combined with a very powerful, unifying chorus.
To slightly editorialize for a moment, what was interesting about Tribe, was how the tunes with DeGarmo, in this writer's opinion, picked back up with that same evolution from Hear in the Now Frontier. The songs without him or his input were still good, but certainly had a different flavor.
If you're inclined to try it, put the following tracks on a playlist:
Open
Desert Dance
Falling Behind
The Art of Life
Doin' Fine
Then create a second playlist with:
Losing Myself
Tribe
The Great Divide
Rhythm of Hope
Blood
If you compare the two playlists, you'll note that the DeGarmo-included tracks are a slightly bit more complex, and more diverse, musically. But what you may also hear is that there is a evolutionary path moving forward from Hear in the Now Frontier to the first playlist of Tribe songs. Those songs maintain that sonic similarity, but are heavier with better production.That's probably an obvious statement, but it also shows how significant DeGarmo's stamp on the band was, and where they were starting to go as a band (perhaps a bit of TOOL-like realm, given the similarities in “Open”) from a writing and chemistry perspective.
The non-DeGarmo tracks, by comparison, still have some great moments (the title track, and “Rhythm of Hope” were fan favorites), but they are simpler in arrangement.
Note: If you add “Justified” to the first playlist (which was meant for Tribe and started in those sessions, and entirely written by DeGarmo), it helps push the point even further. Listen to the creepy guitar harmonics that sit above the tune in some areas. The tune is available on the 2007 Sign of the Times: Best of Queensryche deluxe edition.
The only tune that seems “out-of-place” with the vibe of Tribe as a record, and did before even the credits were known, is “Losing Myself,” which is understandable when you find out it wasn't musically written by the band.
Getting back to the write-up itself...
In addition to “Justified,” one other track was being worked on during the Tribe sessions that unfortunately was not finished prior to turning the album over to the label. That song is “Hostage.” The song is significantly different than the version used on Queensryche's Operation: Mindcrime II a few years later. We'll get into why a bit more then, but the demo version that was meant for Tribe has a more aggressive Michael Wilton guitar solo, a bit more aggressive singing by Tate, no court room/drama effects (which were added to it later to make it work as a “flashback scene” for the Mindcrime sequel), and really captured some great emotion in the lyrics (which followed along a bit with Tribe's overall theme of capturing society in a post-9-11 world).
The demo was never officially released, although it appeared on the band's website, and was played over the PA AFTER shows in late 2004/early 2005, as a “preview” for Operation: Mindcrime II. So, the only public version of the demo version of the song available are audience recordings of that PA broadcast. But make no mistake, it was written in 2003 by Jackson/Rockenfield/Tate/Wilton. It just wasn't complete before the deadline for Tribe.
Click here to hear a poor audience version of it -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX4heb_o9I0
In addition, early promo releases of Tribe had the track “The Art of Life” replaced with “Under My Skin.” An early version of the tracklisting on Queensryche's website had it listed as the abbreviation “U.M.S.” However, to-date, it is unknown whether that is another song entirely, or simply “The Art of Life” re-titled.
Finally, it is unknown what Tribe songs Mike Stone actually appears on, other than “Losing Myself” and the slide guitar on “Rhythm of Hope.” (Stone's appearance on the latter was confirmed to me by Scott Rockenfield.) Stone may or may not appear on the other tracks not credited to DeGarmo (“Tribe,” “The Great Divide,” and “Blood”). No one knows. The only certainty is that DeGarmo performed on all tracks he was credited on (“Open,” “Desert Dance,” “Falling Behind,” “The Art of Life,” “Doin' Fine,” and, eventually, “Justified”) and those cuts likely were the only ones all five original members performed together.
Reception
“Desert Dance” was released to the public as a stream on Queensryche's website in spring 2003 in advance of the record and the band's European shows that summer. It was an aggressive track featuring a very post-grunge metal riff and great guitar effects in the intro and solo section. There was some criticism of the vocals, most notably, the line “keep reachin' c'mon, keep reachin,'” line in the tune (which people interpreted as “rap” for some reason), but overall, it was received fairly positively by the fan base and a return to some aggression that had been missing.
The first single, however, was “Open,” a very TOOL-inspired song with a mid-tempo pace and heavy bass line. The song received some attention, with the band appearing a couple of TV shows (the short-lived Orlando Jones show being one). Years later, Michael Wilton explained that during the Tribe period, with Tate not really wanting to do “metal” any longer (Tate had said that in various interviews around this time), they (the band) approached him (Tate) about pursing a more cerebral hard rock sound in the vein of TOOL, which may have led to some of the sonic elements on the album.
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/single-open.jpg)
Ultimately, however, Tribe was considered a commercial failure. Lack of label support (Sanctuary Records was on its way under) likely contributed to it, as well as fans being let down over the album being marketed as being by the original lineup (but it really wasn't). While “Losing Myself” and “Rhythm of Hope” were also put out as singles, Tribe quickly nosedived and really didn't garner a lot of attention.
Touring
The tour to support Tribe included session guitar player Mike Stone alongside Michael Wilton. It started with some festivals in Europe (the ones DeGarmo was originally going to play) before leading to a U.S. co-headline tour of amphitheaters with fellow progressive metal titans Dream Theater. Fates Warning was support for the summer, making it the first time all three bands who were given much of the credit for establishing the genre of “progressive metal” were on tour together.
The prog metal jaunt was very successful, with Dream Theater closing half the shows, and Queensryche closing the other half. Both bands played shortened headline sets, and then got together for the encore to play a song from each band and a cover tune. The trek went coast-to-coast and was highly regarded by fans of all three bands.
Once the tour wrapped up, Queensryche had a month or so off before beginning its own headline tour in support of Tribe. Like many of the album tours before it, the Tribe headline tour would feature a heavy dose of the new material, with the title track, “Losing Myself,” “Desert Dance, “The Great Divide,” and “Rhythm of Hope” being featured. Also new was a brief acoustic set in the middle of the set, with some songs such as “My Global Mind” and “Roads to Madness” being re-arranged. In addition, later in the tour, the band played some rarely-performed tracks (up to this time) such as “Anybody Listening?”
A Word on Mike Stone
This was the first exposure fans had to Stone, Unfortunately, Stone fared only slightly better than Gray to the fans. Chief among the fan “complaints” was Stone's more punk image, and the very shrill tone he had when playing. One of the key elements of the DeGarmo/Wilton combination was that their tones and styles were similar enough to blend, with the astute listener having to pay close attention (without seeing) to hear who was playing what. Well, that was not a problem with Mike Stone. Like Gray, he put his own stamp on DeGarmo's parts, and they stuck out. To his credit, however, he did away with the wah pedal, which helped, and he was generally regarded as a hell of a nice guy and gracious to fans. That went a long way in helping solidify his place in the band, even though he was technically only a hired gun.
On a personal note, Mike Stone was and is a hell of a nice guy. Over time, he was really embraced by fans and given a raw deal when he was dismissed. But more on that as we progress...
The Tribe tour wrapped up in Nov. 2003, with a couple of one-off gigs in winter 2004.
Samsara's top-3 from Tribe: "The Art of Life," "Desert Dance," "Open"
The Art of Live (2004)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/38/Queensryche_-_The_Art_of_Live_cover.jpg/220px-Queensryche_-_The_Art_of_Live_cover.jpg)
Geoff Tate – Lead vocals
Michael Wilton – Lead & rhythm guitar
Eddie Jackson – Bass & background vocals
Scott Rockenfield – Drums
Mike Stone – Lead & rhythm guitar and background vocals
Queensryche invested heavily in recording technology prior to the 2003 tour. They recorded many (if not all) the shows supporting Tribe. The idea was to have the freedom to record and release anything they do, with as little future expense as possible. The kick-off for this would be documenting the Tribe tour with The Art of Live, an announced live separate DVD and CD releases, wiht the DVD being marketed as being in full color with 5.1 audio. Unfortunately, the plan backfired. While the shows were all captured, the stage lights over-powered the cameras, giving the band washed out color and a visual mess (although the audio was fine).
The result was a DVD shot in sepia tone, and audio that wasn't true 5.1 surround. It was released in spring 2004, and the band went out on another tour leg in support of it, but also focused on the material from Tribe as well. Susan Tate was credited (if memory serves) as producer, while Eddie Jackson (for some reason) was credited as overseeing the audio production.
Simply put -- the releases aren't good. The audio isn't mixed well, and the sepia tone was a big let down for fans, no matter how the band tried to sell it as "arty" to the public.
Note: The DVD also contained one of the encore jams between Dream Theater and Queensryche on the 2003 summer tour.
The openers for this tour are of note. Progressive metallers Symphony-X were direct support for many dates. However, of more historical note for Queensryche, Snake River Conspiracy was direct support for weeks as well. This is a key point in time, as it is the beginning of the relationship beween Queensryche and SRC bassist/songwriter/producer Jason Slater, who would soon become a vital part of the band's creative collective.
One thing that started to make a turn for the better for Queensryche on the 2004 tour was Geoff Tate's vocals. It was clear he had begun to work hard at improving the quality of his performances from the last several years, and the work was paying off. His vocals were at a high level for much of the tour. Heading into European dates that summer, Tate also began experimenting (albeit a short-lived experiment) with using falsetto (it didn't quite work, it wasn't very strong).
The totality of support for both Tribe and The Art of Live concluded on July 10, 2004 in Sweden.
Next-up: Back with One Foot in Hell (pre-Mindcrime II tours) and Operation: Mindcrime II...
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I wasn't really into QR when Tribe came out, but I was heavily invested in DT by then. I flew up to Denver from Austin TX to see the DT/QR/FW show.. If I recall this was right before TOT came out.. or maybe just had come out.
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My Queensryche fandom was at its highest point during Tribe. I really loved the record (it came out around the same time as St. Anger, and this disc got the majority of the playing time for me between the two) and still enjoy about 2/3 of it. Open is a really killer song and I loved hearing a heavier sound from the band. At the time, I didn't care that Degarmo had a hand in the album, I just wanted to hear some new QR. Still enjoy Open, Desert Dance, Rhythm of Hope, Tribe, and Art of Life. Blood is a cool song, but Tate's openness about the lyrics really bothered me, so my enjoyment of the song lessened over time.
My college roommate's wedding was the weekend of the DT/QR show in Chicago, so I missed that tour. I saw the band later on in the fall of 2003 in Milwaukee, and then again in April 2004 where Symphony X opened. Both shows were fantastic, and they started shaking up the setlist by adding in some additional Empire tracks like Best I Can and The Thin Line, and they played a really good amount from Tribe. The spring 2004 show featured a Mindcrime suite (the 2003 tour only featured Needle Lies and I Don't Believe in Love - a nice break from the Mindcrime heavy Q2K/Live Evolution sets) with Pamela Moore and the acoustic trio of songs as well.
I sold my Art of Live dvd, and never listen to the CD. That release is just a total dud right now, but at the time I really liked having official releases of the acoustic songs and live versions of some stuff from Tribe.
Great write up!
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Tribe...
Even though I liked Q2K and thought it was a decent enough album, it had really started to fade by this point in time for me. Although DT had taken over Queensryche's spot as my favorite band by this time, I was THRILLED when I heard Open for the first time. The heavy was back. It was different. But "different" was a given for Queensryche, and this was change that was good. Unfortunately, this album was VERY hit and miss for me. I really liked Open, Desert Dance, and Art of Life. The Great Divide, Tribe, and Doin' Fine were pretty good. Losing Myself was interesting and fun in a quirky kind of way. But the rest of the album was forgettable, and I considered Blood to be far and away the worst thing the band had ever written. I also agree that the album had a bit of an "unfinished" feel to it, including the stripped down (and sometimes absent) solos. But the heaviness and darkness were a welcome return to form. Ultimately, this album isn't where I wanted the band to go. But it was a HUGE step in the right direction.
I did not get a chance to see the band on the Tribe tour proper, but I did catch two of the joint headline shows with DT. My two favorite bands of all time, co-headlining the same bill. Could it get any better? Well...yeah, the problem was how they divided up the show closing. DT closed all shows east of the Mississippi. Queensryche closed all shows west. So even though I could two shows out here, DT got the shorter middle set both times. But still, great couple of shows. And DT's changing set lists, as well as the changing joint encores between the bands, made those shows extra special. So, a few more notes on the shows...
I remember some DT fans behind me at the first show throwing a major fit that the band left the stage without an encore. I knew what was coming later, so I told them, "Don't worry; they'll be back." I could say more about the DT sets. But since this is a Queensryche thread, I'll save it.
Queensryche opened their set with Open. What a fantastic opener. Despite being slow and plodding, that riff is REALLY cool and has a great vibe for opening a show. I don't remember all the songs they played, but it was a really good set. I remember Mike Stone taking the stage at stage left, and thinking, "Whoa. This is a different image for the band." Dude comes out dressed all in black with a black, shirtless hoodie. hood over his head and pulled low over his eyes, and has tats and a beard, and just looking downright sinister. The look fit the dark moodiness of the songs, and it was cool. His guitar tone did cut through more, and he did put his own spin on things. But at the time, it didn't bother me, and he seemed to be a pretty good fit.
Anyhow, they played a good set, and I was happy. But the encores...the encores were what I had come for, and they did not disappoint. Both bands came out onstage together and they played one DT song, one Queensryche song, and a cover. And those were...spectacular. I forget now which night was which. But the rotated encore songs were Take Hold, The Real World, Peruvian Skies, The Spirit Carries On, Won't Get Fooled Again, and Comfortably Numb. I have decent bootlegs somewhere that have all of these. The encores were nothing short of spectacular.
The album being a bit of a positive rebirth for the band, combined with the success of the tour, helped restore a bit of faith in the band for me. But as this album cycle wore on, I found myself listening to Tribe less and less. Whereas albums up through HITNF had all been slow growers that I loved to dig into long after the release date, I liked Tribe immediately, and then it fizzled out. But it was still a step in the right direction, so I was optimistic about what was to come.
I will post some more thoughts, including The Art of Live next week. But first, I'll break my rule and go off topic for just a second to focus on DT. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see them on the SFAM tour. And OH how I wanted one of those Metropolis 2000 jerseys! I ended up getting the last one on their website. Problem was, a friend of mine's teenage son was just getting into the band VERY heavily, and he also REALLY wanted the jersey. So I gave it to him and had to go without. I continued my hunt for another one, but to no avail. So I thought it was really cool when they had sort of a remake of it in an even better looking silver and black for the Escape From the Studio tour with Queensryche, and I picked one up. I still have it, but it unfortunately did not hold up as well as a real jersey. In retrospect, it's a weird shirt. Rather than being made similar to an actual sports jersey like the Metropolis 2000 shirts, the main body and sleeves of the shirt are cotton like a regular tee, but with stripes and accents made out of nylon (or whatever they made jerseys out of). So it just wore strangely after repeat washings and didn't really hold up. Shame. It was a great looking shirt.
On another note, I have a great bootleg somewhere of the NJ show with Symphony X opening as well. The quality is spotty for a few reasons, but it sounded like a REALLY cool show. Wish I could have been there for that one.
Anyhow, more later.
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Great write up again.
I bought Tribe through the QR website, signed - the only reason I bought it really. I was keen to hear an improvement with the return of CDG but wasn't really expecting it. I played it once and hated it. This just wasn't the band I once loved.
In preparation for this I listened again. I got to track 4 before turning it off. I have no desire to listen to it again. The band were dead to me at this point.
And wasn't there stuff in the court depositions about conflict in the recording of Tribe?
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I liked Tribe more overall than Q2K, but was once again let down in regards to the large amount of mellow mid tempo music. If Tribe had more aggression and a few more guitar solos, it would be much much better. I remember reading your article in 2002 with Wilton saying that he was concerned Queensryche was no longer a metal band and everything about the upcoming sessions (Tribe) was confirming that. So I wasn't getting my hopes up that they would have a metal album, or even a hard rock album.
But overall, some good tunes- "Open", "Art of Life" and "Great Divide" are standouts. I didn't think much of "Doin Fine" and have very little interest in that one.
The live album, The Art of Live, was a disappointment and I ended up getting rid of it.
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Great write up again.
I bought Tribe through the QR website, signed - the only reason I bought it really. I was keen to hear an improvement with the return of CDG but wasn't really expecting it. I played it once and hated it. This just wasn't the band I once loved.
In preparation for this I listened again. I got to track 4 before turning it off. I have no desire to listen to it again. The band were dead to me at this point.
And wasn't there stuff in the court depositions about conflict in the recording of Tribe?
Thanks. And thanks to all of you for the kind words previously (before I posted the current write-up).
In regard to the court depositions, yeah, they talked about the vocals on Tribe being one of the catalysts. That's where I took that from. Again, I'm giving the history, but also trying to stay as positive as possible. Once we get to the band split, I'll post the link to all the court docs. I have them all online on AnybodyListening.net for reference purposes. But I just try not to dwell on them.
...
As for my own experience with this era, it was...special. I remember that excitement when it was announced Chris was touring with them and working on the record. I mean...all smiles. My wife and I would get married in this time frame, so the memories are all positive. Hearing "Desert Dance" for the first time on Queensryche's website was an incredible experience. The modern guitar riff, the cool intro, and the aggression were all what I had been hoping for personally from them.
It was a pretty big let down when it was then announced Chris was NOT touring. You just knew, from past experience, something was amiss. But regardless, the Mrs. and I took in two of the shows on the QR/DT tour. We had a really good time. Admittedly, I didn't care for Stone's tone. He was too sharp and shrill, but the shows were overall enjoyable.
Once that tour with DT ended, we went to a bunch of the Tribe headline shows. If I remember right, we went to two of them together (including the first show on the tour, again, if I remember right). One of them was Ventura, Calif. I had never been there, and it was a nice little beach town and cool old theater. About a month later I flew back home to visit my parents and brother, and took in the show on Long Island with one of my best friends. Outstanding show. In the round, great soundcheck where they did Anybody Listening? (I had asked Michael if they could play it, and he said he wasn't sure, because of the length, but would see what he could do -- they did it in soundcheck.) Just a really fun gig.
However, the most memorable moment for me was the Art of Live tour. Specifically, the May 1, 2004 show in Las Vegas. My wife and I went to Vegas to see the band and enjoy a weekend in Sin City. Queensryche was simply on fire. They played a really long set (it was well over two hours), and Tate, vocally, was the finest I had seen him to that point (since 1995 when I first saw them live). They key moment was during "Take Hold of the Flame." The band went into the song, and Tate, with the band not realizing he was going to do it, went for, and old school HIT THAT MFing intro note. The crowd went wild, and I'll never forget Wilton and Eddie looking over at one another in surprise, and then smiling and really getting into the song after that.
Paying attention to the shows that followed later that year, Tate's vocals continued to improve. He was experimenting and pushing at various shows based on the bootlegs I was collecting (I was getting everything at that point). It was pretty cool to see, and Stone was settling in to a degree.
So, while the releases were disappointing, from a live perspective, I was pretty encouraged as a fan.
In regard to Tribe as a record, I was fortunate enough to hear it at a friend's house who got an advance probably a month or so prior to release. I remember him calling me and saying "Dude, seriously, they are back!" I drove 2.5 hours to his house and we played it over and over again and took a copy home for the ride. I immediately loved Open, Desert Dance and Art of Live. I also really dug the title track, Rhythm of Hope, Falling Behind and The Great Divide. As you can see, seven tracks got a big thumbs up at the time.
As the years went on, and now reflecting in the present on the album, it hasn't aged particularly well. When I ended up finding out about the writing of the album, and some of the mystery behind it, it really turned me off. So I started ONLY listening to the DeGarmo tracks because of that. And to this day, I do find those tracks to be superior, but I also very much dig the others I listed to.
As far as I know, Stone only played the slide guitar on Rhythm of Hope, and the guitar tracks obviously on "Losing Myself" (which is a horrendous tune to my ears). I'm not 100 percent certain, but I'm pretty sure the non-DeGarmo tracks (other than the two mentioned just above) remained a four piece...just Tate, Wilton, Jackson and Rockenfield. Which in my OCD-afflicted head, helps me still buy into "they, that's the original lineup" vibe. But still, we don't know absolutely for certain. But listening carefully to Tribe, The Great Divide and Blood, I really don't hear Stone at all. That's all Wilton to my ears.
As I said, generally, the album hasn't aged well for me, but I still do listen to the "Tribe EP" as I call it (Open, DD, Art of Life, Falling Behind, Doin' Fine, Justified) quite frequently, as that is the last thing of the original lineup of the band. I'm softening on my hard line in my old age though. I really enjoy the title track and The Great Divide, and realize that if you just leave off Losing Myself, and insert Justified in its place, you pretty much have what the band intended as the record, with Stone guesting on the slide of Rhythm of Hope. And that's probably just fine.
But the difficulty (again, for me personally) is that the album is just such a cluster F in how it was written and recorded, it just grates on me. I like to put things in boxes, and Tribe is something that I can't really do that with, and it is frustrating for me personally. That's why I tie a bow around the DeGarmo tracks. At least that's something that is definitively the original band.
In regard to the Art of Live album and DVD -- horse shit. I no longer have either. I think my wife has physical copies of them both. I am not sure. But they are garbage, which is a shame. That was the band trying to save a buck right there by investing in equipment (spend money to save money) and they obviously didn't do their homework appropriately. Just a complete waste of money, and then to release that garbage? Ugh. Seriously folks, if you didn't buy it before, don't bother searching for it now. it's a complete waste. Such a shame.
Anyway, in general, I remember the time period fondly. Some up moments, some down moments when Chris departed and the album wasn't quite right, but I still very much enjoy the original lineup's work on the record.
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Listening to Tribe right now, listening to it with the two separate playlists and the CDG playlist is pretty damn good so far. I can see the Tool influence in "Open"
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I just got through Tribe. I think it's the most consistent and best release since Empire.
There are some gems on here however what is up with the production. Every release since Empire has sounded like it was mixed and mastered in an amateurs bedroom. It's so stuffy and there is no life to the music. The drums are particularly bad, they sound as if there was no effort to put down a powerful drum track.
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Focusing strictly on the album itself, I like the DeGarmo stuff and the title track. It felt like a step in the right direction for the band, and had they had more time to polish it and not rush to meet a deadline, I think this album could have done better. That being said, I can't quite separate this album from all of the drama around it. I remember Susan Tate pushing the whole "DeGarmo's Back!" thing pretty heavily, and then strongly denying she ever said that once things didn't pan out. To me, it smacked of amateurism and was such a sharp contrast to my image of the band as being a very well run and professional outfit during their prime years. Ultimately, the behavior of Susan Tate, especially in regards to honesty and her treatment of the fans, is what soured me on them and I ended up losing interest in the band.
I did get to see them on the 2003 tour with DT and FW, and, looking back at their set, they played a pretty solid set. It was interesting though, to watch Wilton handle the lead on Best I Can. I remember, during the encore, Labrie hit the super high note on Take Hold, and I also remember Petrucci harmonizing Wilton on the guitar solo, which was pretty sweet.
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I did get to see them on the 2003 tour with DT and FW, and, looking back at their set, they played a pretty solid set. It was interesting though, to watch Wilton handle the lead on Best I Can. I remember, during the encore, Labrie hit the super high note on Take Hold, and I also remember Petrucci harmonizing Wilton on the guitar solo, which was pretty sweet.
Yeah. That was also the tour where Wilton had forgotten how to play one of QR's older tunes, and Petrucci supposedly showed him how it went right there on the spot. :lol
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I actually saw DT and QR on that tour. I didn't know anything about QR and it was my first DT show. I remeber QR being decent, FW and DT being awesome.
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I should try and find some time to listen to it again, I remember hearing it back in the day and thinking it was ok, at the very least. It was interesting to read about the situation leading to its recording, I wasn't really aware of the whole De Garmo is back - De Garmo is a guest - De Garmo is gone thing.
Now I also know why the video on YouTube of DT and QR doing Comfortably Numb is in sepia :D just allow me some little praise for our own JLB 'cause when he comes in after Geoff sings the initial verse, it's just fantastic and it blends quite well in.
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Regardimg Q2K, I've only heard a few songs off Youtube, because the album isn't on Spotify and I can't find the CD anywhere either (though that may not be a huge loss :lol).
It's on Spotify (unless it's not in your region (not sure if spotify has region controls))
https://open.spotify.com/album/1EfzUKbKuDZKxa2rpiJzt8
Yeah, not available in my country (Finland) :-\
Tribe is a decent album, but I wish Tate had had the humility to work with DeGarmo on the vocals, because songs like Open and Rhythm of Hope - while good musically - could've been fantastic with better melodies. I also think the album suffers because of the unfinished vibe that Samsara mentioned, as well as the slight disjointedness that comes out of DeGarmo only being involved with half the material and Losing Myself being slapped onto the album despite having nothing in common with the rest. Then there's Desert Dance with the obnoxious chanting and Doin' Fine, which I find kind of annoying and a weak closer... For all these reasons I personally prefer HITNF, though The Art of Life is one of QR's finest moments, and Falling Behind and The Great Divide are great songs as well.
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Regardimg Q2K, I've only heard a few songs off Youtube, because the album isn't on Spotify and I can't find the CD anywhere either (though that may not be a huge loss :lol).
It's on Spotify (unless it's not in your region (not sure if spotify has region controls))
https://open.spotify.com/album/1EfzUKbKuDZKxa2rpiJzt8
Yeah, not available in my country (Finland) :-\
So that means that even if you could start listening to the album, you couldn't Finnish it? :lhk:
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I did get to see them on the 2003 tour with DT and FW, and, looking back at their set, they played a pretty solid set. It was interesting though, to watch Wilton handle the lead on Best I Can. I remember, during the encore, Labrie hit the super high note on Take Hold, and I also remember Petrucci harmonizing Wilton on the guitar solo, which was pretty sweet.
Yeah. That was also the tour where Wilton had forgotten how to play one of QR's older tunes, and Petrucci supposedly showed him how it went right there on the spot. :lol
Wait, wut? :lol
I thought this was the tour where Wilton offered to show Petrucci how to play "Take Hold" and Petrucci politely said "I'm good." Wasn't this also the tour where Stone tried to give Petrucci pointers or something. :facepalm:
I forget, honestly. It was all so ridiculous.
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I did get to see them on the 2003 tour with DT and FW, and, looking back at their set, they played a pretty solid set. It was interesting though, to watch Wilton handle the lead on Best I Can. I remember, during the encore, Labrie hit the super high note on Take Hold, and I also remember Petrucci harmonizing Wilton on the guitar solo, which was pretty sweet.
Yeah. That was also the tour where Wilton had forgotten how to play one of QR's older tunes, and Petrucci supposedly showed him how it went right there on the spot. :lol
Wait, wut? :lol
I thought this was the tour where Wilton offered to show Petrucci how to play "Take Hold" and Petrucci politely said "I'm good." Wasn't this also the tour where Stone tried to give Petrucci pointers or something. :facepalm:
I forget, honestly. It was all so ridiculous.
Same tour, but I think two different events.
The JP showing Wilton the song thing wasn't JP being arrogant or anything. It's just an example of what has been brought up before about his almost-photographic memory when it comes to music. They were talking about an older QR song. I'm not sure if it was in rehearsal before the tour actually started, or if they were talking about old QR songs in general, or talking about an older song that QR might include in their set, or what. But they were talking about an older song, and Michael said something to the effect of, "I don't even remember how that one goes; I'm going to have to go listen to try to remember how to play it because it's been awhile." Or maybe it was one for the encores and he was wanting to remember how the OTHER part went so he could show JP. I don't know the specifics on that part of it. But John's response was along the lines of, "Oh, don't worry about it. Here look, it goes like this... *plays it from memory*" I seem to recall the story either coming from the QR camp, or Wilton confirming it later or something like that, so I don't doubt it. I just don't know the details. But we've talked about it in the past. You probably just forgot.
I think the thing about Stone was basically a misunderstanding. Knowing what I've heard about Stone's sense of humor, he was probably joking around. No idea. But for whatever reason, JP got really annoyed with him.
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At least we got As I Am out of it ;D
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Well, we would have gotten As I Am anyway. We just got two lines of lyrics we wouldn't have otherwise gotten.
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But the rest of the album was forgettable, and I considered Blood to be far and away the worst thing the band had ever written.
I remember you saying this in a discussion in the past. It's probably my favorite song on the album, but I couldn't really say why. The only song that I never really cared for was Doin' Fine. In fact, I was really excited after hearing the record because I thought that they were on the right path again, even if I didn't like it as much as their classic material.
I did not get a chance to see the band on the Tribe tour proper, but I did catch two of the joint headline shows with DT. My two favorite bands of all time, co-headlining the same bill. Could it get any better? Well...yeah, the problem was how they divided up the show closing. DT closed all shows east of the Mississippi. Queensryche closed all shows west. So even though I could two shows out here, DT got the shorter middle set both times. But still, great couple of shows. And DT's changing set lists, as well as the changing joint encores between the bands, made those shows extra special. So, a few more notes on the shows...
I seen the tour in Columbus, Ohio at a newer outdoor venue that the name of escapes me at the moment. I'm almost 100% positive that DT played before QR that night, and we're well east of the Mississippi here in Ohio.
On a side note: I remember hearing news that someone stole Frank Aresti's guitar at one of the shows on this tour.
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There is nothing more corny than joint encores.
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I've always enjoyed Tribe. Is it mind blowingly amazing? no, not really. But is it really solid? I would say yes.
I will say that I LOVE the art of live. That song is awesome and I also like Justified alot even though its not on the original album.
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Unfortunately I was really underwhelmed by Tribe despite looking forward to it. I read about Wilton wanting to go in a heavier direction and the return of DeGarmo, but it didn't make much of a difference to me. Yet another solidly meh album. That said, reading about the making of the album and things going behind the scene was fascinating as always. Congratulations on yet another very engaging read, Samsara! :metal
I did get to see them on the 2003 tour with DT and FW, and, looking back at their set, they played a pretty solid set. It was interesting though, to watch Wilton handle the lead on Best I Can. I remember, during the encore, Labrie hit the super high note on Take Hold, and I also remember Petrucci harmonizing Wilton on the guitar solo, which was pretty sweet.
Yeah. That was also the tour where Wilton had forgotten how to play one of QR's older tunes, and Petrucci supposedly showed him how it went right there on the spot. :lol
Wait, wut? :lol
I thought this was the tour where Wilton offered to show Petrucci how to play "Take Hold" and Petrucci politely said "I'm good." Wasn't this also the tour where Stone tried to give Petrucci pointers or something. :facepalm:
I forget, honestly. It was all so ridiculous.
Same tour, but I think two different events.
The JP showing Wilton the song thing wasn't JP being arrogant or anything. It's just an example of what has been brought up before about his almost-photographic memory when it comes to music. They were talking about an older QR song. I'm not sure if it was in rehearsal before the tour actually started, or if they were talking about old QR songs in general, or talking about an older song that QR might include in their set, or what. But they were talking about an older song, and Michael said something to the effect of, "I don't even remember how that one goes; I'm going to have to go listen to try to remember how to play it because it's been awhile." Or maybe it was one for the encores and he was wanting to remember how the OTHER part went so he could show JP. I don't know the specifics on that part of it. But John's response was along the lines of, "Oh, don't worry about it. Here look, it goes like this... *plays it from memory*" I seem to recall the story either coming from the QR camp, or Wilton confirming it later or something like that, so I don't doubt it. I just don't know the details. But we've talked about it in the past. You probably just forgot.
I think the thing about Stone was basically a misunderstanding. Knowing what I've heard about Stone's sense of humor, he was probably joking around. No idea. But for whatever reason, JP got really annoyed with him.
Cool, I always wondered what the story was behind that. Obviously you know the guy better than I do, but that Stone story always seemed super out of character to me. JP is so chilled out, I can't imagine him getting annoyed over something like that or missing a joke, not to mention writing the event into a song. Like that's something I'd expect out of Portnoy but not JP (not making a character judgement here, just my observation of their personalities).
I really wish I could've seen the Dream Theater/Queensryche tour. That sounds like a really fantastic moment in both bands' histories.
Another question about the tour for Samsara, Bosk, or anyone else can answer: There's a bit on one of the DVD commentaries where they have a laugh about Geoff Tate singing Peruvian Skies. I've always been curious about what that was in reference to and if there's a story or recording to go with it?
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Tribe kinda holds a special place in my heart, in a way, because of that time in my life and the tour with Dream Theater. In the Spring of that year, I was 14 and in 8th grade. Through school, I had gotten reacquainted with an old friend of mine. We got to being the best of friends.
Musically, I think we first bonded over our love of System of A Down and he may have already been listening to Dream Theater a little bit. I think I helped nudge him further in that direction. ;D But then I got him hooked pretty hard on Operation: Mindcrime. Around that time, I called his house. His dad answered. I don't remember how it came up, but his dad said "He's been listening to that all day." :P
So, when that tour was announced not long after, it was a no-brainer. My dad (naturally a QR/DT fan, as well) drove us to see that tour in Baltimore. July 15th, 2003. I will never forget that day as long as I live. We got to the venue early and almost immediately met James LaBrie and Jordan Rudess standing outside.
A little bit later, just walking around, we got to hear (and kinda watch from a distance, across the river) Queensryche's soundcheck. They did "Spreading The Disease (w/ Electric Requiem)" and "The Mission". I didn't realize at the time but that meant they weren't gonna play "Speak" that night, which they had been playing most nights (damn!). They also played "Take Hold" during their set which disappointed me because I'd read they'd been playing it with Dream Theater in the encores. The biggest surprise was when they came back for their encore with "Queen of The Reich" which I was not expecting at all. So, all was forgiven. :P
Another question about the tour for Samsara, Bosk, or anyone else can answer: There's a bit on one of the DVD commentaries where they have a laugh about Geoff Tate singing Peruvian Skies. I've always been curious about what that was in reference to and if there's a story or recording to go with it?
I guess they would switch up which verses they would sing on a particular night. The commentary obviously references Geoff singing the second verse. In Baltimore, he sang the first one. He did flub a line in it that night, which is understandable to me. "Don't turn off the lights until we see the way it ends" or something like that. :P Wilton also made a minor mistake in it that night.
As for the album, I liked it well enough. I was more taken with it than Q2k, but I think that may have been mostly because of the excitement of DeGarmo being back (for a moment). But, there's definitely plenty I like regardless. The heaviness of the title track, "Open", and "Desert Dance" was something I was hoping they would explore more of throughout the album. Not to be. "The Art of Life" kinda has it but I'm not fond of the talking verses. Those four songs also suffer from basically what Tribe (the album) seems to suffer from, in my opinion, which is that they just seem incomplete. Almost thrown together.
I don't really listen to it all that often because of the time it brings me back to. While fun, sometimes it hurts to remember. :P
Regarding The Art of Live DVD, I bought that on release day. I remember being fine with it, in general. Other than the audio mix, the only real disappointment was that I thought "Anybody Listening?" would be included on it but it was a typo in one of the promo materials. Speaking of promotion for it, I remember they performed on an ESPN morning show called Cold Pizza promoting the album/DVD. They played "Sign of The Times" and "Rhythm of Hope" acoustically. :)
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I pretty much enjoyed Tribe right from the start. To me it has held up just fine, as I pull it out and enjoy it much more often than both HITNF and Q2K and much more so than anything after it until 2013 (and that is a F**k**g understatement), but back to Tribe. I totally disagree with the sentiment that the DeGarmo involvement material on this record outshines the rest of the songs. Open and The Art of Life are REALLY good songs.
In my opinion, Desert Dance, Falling Behind and Doin Fine are all boring generic plodding songs that are no better than Losing Myself (which is an ok song, it doesn't grate on me the way it does for some fans) but none of those four are songs I listen to much.
By comparison, the DeGarmo-less songs on the record, they take the prize easily in my book. The Great Divide and Rhythm of Hope are the two standout awesome songs on this record for me. Blood is really good too (I can tune out the lyrical messages). So those three along with Open and Art of Life would round out my top five tracks. That gives the Degarmo-less songs a 3-2 win to me, and they did the best two songs on the record IMO. Losing Myself and the title track are ok, nothing special, they are right there with Desert Dance, Falling Behind and doin Fine.
I saw five shows on these tours. Two with Dream Theatre and Fates Warning, and two headline shows on the Tribe tour legs, and one headline show on the Art of Live tour. All fantastic shows, very, very enjoyable. In my mind all was good. DeGarmo's second departure (if you could even call it a return) wasn't all that big of a deal to me, cause like I said I thought two of the songs he contributed to were really good but the other three were boring and bland and did nothing for me. Not to mention, the lackluster HITNF pretty much had his stamp all over it, and it wasn't anything to brag about, again bland and boring save for a few tracks. He gets as much blame and then some for that as far as I'm concerned.
Mike Stone: great guy, he gave 100% and did a great job during his time in the band and I always thought he got a raw deal from some of the fans and he certainly got a raw deal from management. I thought he did just fine on all the shows I attended and I got to meet him (as well as the rest of the band) at a meet and greet in 2005. Cool dude
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Sorry, I'm a bit late to the party, but I just couldn't resist sharing some opinions on the past few studio albums you've discussed.
Hear in the Now Frontier- I was vacationing in Florida when this album was first released and still have fond memories of listening to it on my Walkman repeatedly at the beach. As opposed to the dark and brilliant Promised Land, which would have left me in a somber state during my trip, this one was light and pleasant, and kept my spirits as high as the seagulls. For some reason at the time, it didn't bother me whatsoever that Queensryche had abandoned their progressive metal roots because a huge majority of these songs were undeniably catchy, with some of my favorites being Miles Away (Geoff and Chris harmonize so wonderfully together here), Spool, The Voice Inside, and You. The only thing that really annoys me is how for some insane reason, garbage tracks like "Get a Life" and "Cuckoo's Nest" were included on the album instead of the amazing "Chasing Blue Sky." Argh!
Q2K- Like most longtime fans, I was pretty disappointed with this one at first but once I stopped comparing it to albums like Operation Mindcrime and Rage for Order, I got plenty of enjoyment out of it--it has also aged quite well. I agree that it's a huge improvement over Hear in the Now Frontier in terms of production; it practically begs to be played at loud volumes. Yes, "Right Side of My Mind" is easily the standout song and it would make me so happy to hear Todd sing it someday. "When the Rain Comes" is the other true gem, in my opinion, and I also like "Falling Down," "Howl," and "Breakdown" quite a bit.
Tribe- Upon learning that Chris was involved in the production and then hearing the unique and impressive "Desert Dance," I couldn't help but believe with all my heart that this was going to be their finest album since Promised Land. But even if I expected nothing, I probably still would have been disappointed. This album has never done much for me and I rarely get the urge to revisit it. It was really interesting to read Samsara's retrospective, as it confirmed my initial suspicions that Tribe was rushed and incomplete. Almost every song seems to be missing a key component, especially "Blood," which sounds like a crummy demo. "Desert Dance" and the title track always get my feet tapping, and "The Art of Life" is pretty damn awesome, but the rest of the tracks make me feel absolutely nothing but indifference.
Geoff Tate- Man, sometimes I feel like I must be the #1 fan of this album. I love love love it! For anyone with a soft spot for melancholy love songs, this really hits the spot. "This Moment," "Helpless," "In Other Words," and my favorite, "A Passenger" are achingly lovely, and it saddens me that Geoff didn't continue down this soft-rock path post-Queensryche. For many years, "Grain of Faith" was the only song I'd regularly skip, but Geoff's 2012 tour showed me what a fun and groovy tune it actually is. And the album ends on such a strong note with "Over Me," which should have been the lead single instead of the goofy "Off the TV."
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re: Peruvian Skies -- I'm not really sure what is being referred to in regard to getting a laugh over Geoff and the song. I never heard that. I thought Tate and Labrie did a really good job on each others material. :)
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Sam, would you say this is about the time that Geoff became hard to deal with and it grew from here? I was so disappointed when I heard Chris was back only to back out of the tour.
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Sam, would you say this is about the time that Geoff became hard to deal with and it grew from here? I was so disappointed when I heard Chris was back only to back out of the tour.
I would say that following this, particularly as Susan Tate became the band's full time manager, Tate was much more inclined to take control of the direction, and the other guys laid back more than they should have. We'll get more into that dynamic on the next couple of entries.
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I was completely out of the QR loop at this time. I had no idea what they were doing, not paying any attention to them. A friend hooked me up with a copy of Tribe years later, and I remember thinking it doesn't suck. Was better than I had given it credit for. I'll have to give it a listen.
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re: Peruvian Skies -- I'm not really sure what is being referred to in regard to getting a laugh over Geoff and the song. I never heard that. I thought Tate and Labrie did a really good job on each others material. :)
In the commentary for 5YiaL, while they're playing that song, it gets to the line "Hey, I hope you know" and in the commentary James sings "It's gonna snow". MP says "I can't ever listen to this song without thinking of Geoff Tate singing it." Then James cracks up. "Did you read the lyrics, Geoff?" :P So, apparently, that happened one night. But, as I mentioned, Geoff didn't sing that verse the night I saw them.
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Regardimg Q2K, I've only heard a few songs off Youtube, because the album isn't on Spotify and I can't find the CD anywhere either (though that may not be a huge loss :lol).
It's on Spotify (unless it's not in your region (not sure if spotify has region controls))
https://open.spotify.com/album/1EfzUKbKuDZKxa2rpiJzt8
Yeah, not available in my country (Finland) :-\
So that means that even if you could start listening to the album, you couldn't Finnish it? :lhk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObpcGNCU944
Man, the DT/QR/FW shows must've been epic - that's one of the tours I'd like to catch if I had a time machine.
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I like Tribe. After the disaster of Q2k it was a welcome relief to get an album that sounded like QR again, albeit the post-Empire version with a limp and a few missing teeth.
It does have the slight air of being slightly unfinished, but overall it's like Promised Land and HiTNF for me - a solid 7/10 kinda record.
At the time, when it looked like Mike Stone was going to hang around as the second guitarist I thought it was quite a promising sign as Losing Myself is one of my favourites on the record...
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Many similar experiences as mentioned above:
I had heard of DeGarmo’s reuniting with the band. I was also quite excited of getting to see them in Baltimore with my current wife (our first big concert together). Had never heard of Dream Theater, thought the name was quite cool, and we looked forward to the evening at Pier Six in Baltimore.
Thought the stage set up was quite different as a band all dressed in black starts in on heavy chords, see a lead guitarist in the hood, a bald headed lead singer comes out, and we’re like ‘wtf, that’s Geoff Tate!’ Actually thought for more than a few seconds that it was that other band.
Since ‘Tribe’ did not get released until two weeks later, we were unfamiliar with any new stuff, but ‘Open’ was an unforgettable track (a top 25 song of theirs for me still). I did not care for the image change, and was quite deflated during the show. ‘What happened to them?’ and ‘where’s Chris?’ popped our heads way too often. It was the first time she’d seen them, the fourth time and tour for me. I do remember really enjoying ‘The Mission’ and ‘Eyes of a Stranger’ with the ‘Anarchy Xtra’ ending and overpowering strobe lights. I also thought ‘what a damn short set list. No encores. That’s odd as all hell.’
I still purchased the CD when it came out just to have ‘Open’. And that’s all I enjoyed on it. That beginning of ‘Losing Myself’ lost me for what turned out to be for good, because nothing else struck my fancy. Reading the liner notes as it played also disappointed, as to the lack of DeGarmo’s input, and even those didn’t register for me.
[Part two of the show: Quite an intro, along with ‘who is this drummer?’ He seemed at the forefront of the stage, often standing, urging the crowd on, spitting more than Roger Taylor of Queen, and quite a joy to watch. But, since my stepdaughter was staying at a friend’s for the night, and Queensryche had already played, we cut out after about 40 minutes to enjoy the empty house.
A couple of weeks later I purchased a couple of CDs, ‘Tribe’ and ‘Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence’. I gave each disc a spin. And then Disc Two of that Dream Theater band again. And then again. Other than ‘The Great Debate’, I think I listened to all of the tracks a dozen times before I&W and Awake were purchased a few weeks later.]
Queensryche dropped off my map after ‘Tribe’, other than checking in on the future train wrecks. I’ve tried bits of the songs during this discussion, with an open approach, but call it age and/or indifference (theirs and mine), for me there was only one track I enjoyed then and now.
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I haven't added much to this thread, but I have to say, I've always really really loved Tribe. I think it's a really fantastic album. I didn't really like Q2K at all, but Tribe is a gem.
Open is a great moody rocker with a fabulous and somewhat more classic Ryche chorus. Losing Myself has a real alternate 90's vibe ala something from Live's V album or something. The chorus is catchy enough to keep my interest. Desert Dance again has that alternate vibe but more agression and energy. The chorus is a bit cringeworthy, but I don't mind it. Like the eastern vibe in the instrumentation.
Falling Behind was one that I didn't really take notice of or did anything for me. The Great Divide has a darker feel again and a simply fantastic chorus. Love the guitars in the chorus too, wonderful atmosphere. Rhythm of Hope is fine, but was never a highlight for me.
The title track is by far my favourite and one of my favourite songs by the band. Love the ultra heaviness of it. Moody, dark, brooding, love it. Blood was another filler song for me, very odd and interesting track though. The Art of Live gives me a bit of the old Queensryche in the feel of it, good track that could fit right on Promised Land IMO. The closer is nothing flash either.
Having a listen back to this album now, I'm not sure why I liked it so much cause it isn't like I remembered it, but nevertheless is was shining light in what the band were doing around that time.
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Blood was another filler song for me, very odd and interesting track though.
Blood is one of the tracks that really does sound unfinished to me. There's some nice ideas in the song, but I find the chorus to be atrociously bad.
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Tribe for me is the low point in their career. It’s an utter lifeless and boring experience with mostly mid-tempo songs plodding along and often times not even a solo to grab attention. The contributions of DeGarmo aren’t helping either.
Maybe it is because the record is and sounds unfinished.
The Art Of Live is just shit. I only own the audio cd and even that were some bucks better spent on something else.
Queensryche invested heavily in recording technology prior to the 2003 tour. They recorded many (if not all) the shows supporting Tribe.
Reading this I got to wonder what they did wrong. The sound of the audio cd is shit and Geoff Tate is simply out of key on some of the songs. If they recorded a lot of shows they could have chosen versions of songs where Tate was better. Or does this mean that Tate sang off-key every night?
After this snoozefest I was ready to give up on QR.
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Tribe for me is the low point in their career. It’s an utter lifeless and boring experience with mostly mid-tempo songs plodding along and often times not even a solo to grab attention. The contributions of DeGarmo aren’t helping either.
Maybe it is because the record is and sounds unfinished.
The Art Of Live is just shit. I only own the audio cd and even that were some bucks better spent on something else.
Queensryche invested heavily in recording technology prior to the 2003 tour. They recorded many (if not all) the shows supporting Tribe.
Reading this I got to wonder what they did wrong. The sound of the audio cd is shit and Geoff Tate is simply out of key on some of the songs. If they recorded a lot of shows they could have chosen versions of songs where Tate was better. Or does this mean that Tate sang off-key every night?
After this snoozefest I was ready to give up on QR.
You sound surprised that this could be a possibility? :lol
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Yeah, a little bit.
I know that Tate's singing was deteriorating for a long time, but I always had the impression that the really bad singing started later. And some mentioned above that he sounded good on the 2004 tour. And it's not that he didn't have the range anymore, I knew that, but there are several songs where he just sings off key and it's really cringeworthy.
Who decided to put this out as it is? It would be easy to look for better performances (and there had to be some) or to do some editing in the studio.
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I'd have to watch the DVD again but the video in that sepia tone was just a true WTF moment. I don't remember the performances being as bad as you say but I can't remember either. You can tell even on Live Evolution Tate's range was really starting to go then and obviously declined over the years. I thought the performances on this were alright from memory but could be way off. Listening to Tribe again today as I said earlier, makes me wonder why I thought it was as good as I thought back then.
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To my ears, Tate was a bit spotty on the Tribe tour (which is when Art of Live was captured). He began singing much better on the tour supporting Art of Live, and that continued through the dates supporting Judas Priest in 2005 (where he sounded pretty damn good, actually).
However, Tate was not out of key a lot on the Tribe tour. I just think the recordings used for Art of Live were total crap. The credits show Eddie Jackson as supervising the audio, and Susan Tate producing. To my knowledge, neither ever filled those roles before. This was a "do it yourself" project that Sanctuary, in its last gasp as a label, put out, and it bombed.
My guess is, Sanctuary gave them some money to film and produce it, and Queensryche gave them it with as little work done as possible to fulfill the commitment. But again, that's a guess. They did have the best of intentions, as it was marketed initially as being full color with 5.1 surround sound. Obviously, that didn't happen, and it has been sort of a black mark/wtf moment in their career for sure.
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A bit more commentary on these two releases from me...
Tribe marked a big shift for me. HITNF was different, but different in a way I could connect with, and I liked that a lot. Q2K was something I clearly did NOT connect with in the same way. But I knew I didn't like it and I knew why. And it was the band trying to do something different and just missing the mark. I guess it's just easy to put Q2K in a box, take the few things I like about it, and just disregard the album as a whole. Tribe was something different from that. Tribe had a lot of signature Queensryche back in it. There is a lot of layering and nuance in the music, even though there is a lot missing as well. The things I liked about it jumped out immediately. But beyond that, there wasn't anything beneath the surface that hooked me later, and the album thus did not age well or have much staying power.
One of the biggest issues I had with the album was the lyrics. Queensryche had always taken on social issues. When I came to the band, during the Mindcrime and Empire era, they were tackling social issues, politics, and a host of other things with both guns blazing. And frankly, even where I could tell I differed markedly from what they were selling, I could still embrace what they were doing. To me, Tribe is a BIG departure from that. In the past, the band could take on a serious topic, dig deep into it, and take a position, but somehow have me come away feeling like they were making me think, but not telling me WHAT to think. With Tribe, I just felt like things had shifted and crossed the line. Now, the topics Geoff were singing about were still the same types of things, but he came across as sanctimonious and preachy. For the first time, I felt like I was having a viewpoint rammed down my throat. And the thing is, when I take a deep look at the lyrics, they don't really seem all THAT different than the stuff from the early days. So I'm not sure what it is. Maybe it was my own changing and growing as a person and where I was at on some of these issues. Maybe it was the fact that Geoff's lyrics, which were replete with themes of withholding judgment while simultaneously having an undercurrent of "I searched for truth and became enlightened, and now I know better than the masses, so listen to ME" that came across as hypocritical. I'm not sure. But I know it felt different and was something that would continue from this album forward. And I also know I'm not the only one to feel this way, even if I may not be able to put my finger on exactly why. But that subtle shift I was feeling was a turnoff. And for something like music that inspires emotional connections and responses, it is something that made me start to incrementally distance myself from the band.
A bit more on The Art of Live: If I had to pick one glaring flaw, it is Geoff's vocals. I had heard him sound strained or miss notes here and there in the past. But this was different. He was singing from his throat and was often off-key, as others have mentioned. And I know that it wasn't something limited to the shows they chose for the release. Geoff was often off like this for a good portion of the tour cycle. My first exposure was the performance of Open on the Orlando Jones show. That song is fantastic, and I was really looking forward to seeing a live version. I was shocked with how Geoff sounded. He was clearly singing from the throat and could not stay on key. And this was baffling considering that it is a pretty easy song to sing, and the range shouldn't be a challenge at all. The two shows I saw and the bootlegs I heard were a bit better, but still strained and frequently off-key. Unfortunately, this live release is plagued by those types of moments.
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Whereas I found Hear in the now frontier rather average, and Q2K hardly even average, Tribe got me going. This is a good album.
Open grabbed me immediately and the title track is also fantastic, the riffs and the verses are so sinister. I also liked Losing myself as well, it might not truly be a Queensryche song but it rocks and entertains. I'm not sure what's to dislike about Blood - I find the beat and the subdued vocals in the chorus very cool, it would also be one of my favorites.
The album has its share of mediocre songs, but overall, it's a good collection of tracks. It helps that the album isn't very long so there's less chance for filler material. I don't think it's DeGarmo's participation that sold the album for me, it's just that the songwriting is better. This album would probably stand behind the big five on my list - not right behind, but close enough.
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Whereas I found Hear in the now frontier rather average, and Q2K hardly even average, Tribe got me going. This is a good album.
Open grabbed me immediately and the title track is also fantastic, the riffs and the verses are so sinister. I also liked Losing myself as well, it might not truly be a Queensryche song but it rocks and entertains. I'm not sure what's to dislike about Blood - I find the beat and the subdued vocals in the chorus very cool, it would also be one of my favorites.
The album has its share of mediocre songs, but overall, it's a good collection of tracks. It helps that the album isn't very long so there's less chance for filler material. I don't think it's DeGarmo's participation that sold the album for me, it's just that the songwriting is better. This album would probably stand behind the big five on my list - not right behind, but close enough.
You and I seem to have the same general idea on this record. Obviously not as good as Warning through PL, but yes I would put it above HITNF and Q2K for sure, and better than the next few albums to come until the S/T 2013 release. Good collection of tracks and just right time length wise Agreed :tup
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Back with One Foot in Hell Tour (2004-2005)
After the Tribe and Art of Live tour cycles finished, it wasn't long before Queensryche was back on the road. The band decided to revisit a full production of Operation: Mindcrime, doing a tour consisting of two acts – a “greatest hits” hour, followed by a brief intermission and then a performance of the legendary concept record.
At the time, the tour was a bit of a head-scratcher for some fans. Back in the day, after the Building Empires tour, the band had said it wouldn't perform Operation: Mindcrime in its entirety again. However, 12 years later, a lot had changed for Queensryche. After a bunch of unsuccessful records, Queensryche once again found itself without a label and looking for direction. On top of that, allegedly (this could be in the band's 2012 lawsuit declarations, I have not checked) Queensryche got sued by Japanese promoters for cancelling the 2001 tour, and it was rumored they had a hefty settlement to pay.
It was also around this time period that Susan Tate assumed full control of managing Queensryche (it may have been a year later, but it was in this era at some point). So, for a variety of reasons, Queensryche decided to capitalize on Operation: Mindcrime's popularity, using it to help rebuild the band's name, and likely help pay off some debt.
The tour was a huge success on every level. Queensryche sold out large theaters across the United States, as fans flocked to the shows in droves to see Operation: Mindcrime performed. Generally speaking, this began one of the most financially profitable eras in Queensryche's history. During the run, it was at some point decided that Queensryche's next album would be conceptual. Those discussions led to doing a sequel to Operation: Mindcrime.
Editor's note: I said this in a previous write-up, but it is necessary to repeat it. A marketing plan was created to build up attention and suspense for Operation: Mindcrime II by telling anyone who would listen that it was “always planned” to do a sequel to Operation: Mindcrime. THIS IS NOT TRUE. In fact, in all interviews, whenever the band was asked the question about a “Mindcrime 2,” they definitively stated there would be no sequel, it was a complete story (this was through 2004 and into 2005). It was only afterward, once Tate had decided to press forward with the idea, that the story was concocted about Queensryche planning to do a sequel right after 1988, and that they ultimately went another path, etc. That's simply inaccurate and an attempt to re-write history to better serve the band's marketing strategy for 2005-2007.
Simply put, Operation: Mindcrime II was all about money. The band owed money to pay off debts (see Japanese tour comments above), they needed a record deal, and a sequel to Operation: Mindcrime would help solve those issues -- simply another record would not. So, Queensryche decided to do the sequel, and Rhino Records signed them to a three-album deal on the strength of that plan in 2005.
Come spring 2005, Queensryche (at the conclusion of the Back with One Foot in Hell tour) agreed to serve as direct support for Judas Priest on that band's 2005 tour. The tour was notable as Queensryche played a very “metal” set, pulling out some songs such as “Surgical Strike,” “En Force,” “The Whisper” and a medley of songs from the EP. The band also mostly avoided all songs from Operation: Mindcrime, performing only “The Needle Lies.” Queensryche, did, however, debut a new song, “I'm American,” announcing it as a song from Operation: Mindcrime II. The aggressive tune, featuring a blistering solo by Wilton and Stone, was very well received by most audiences.
Following the tour with Judas Priest, Queensryche went out on another headline tour in September and October 2005, basically reprising the Back in One Foot in Hell format.
At this point, you may be wondering how Queensryche was writing and recording Operation: Mindcrime II, given they had been out on the road. The record was being written by Jason Slater of Snake River Conspiracy. Slater was out on the road with Queensryche for part of 2005 (working with the band behind the scenes), and when he wasn't, he was going over initial ideas with Tate by sharing files via email of songs he had written.
Operation: Mindcrime II (2006)
(https://www.metal-archives.com/images/1/0/5/3/105300.jpg?1611)
Geoff Tate – Vocals
Mike Stone – Guitars
Michael Wilton – Guitars
Eddie Jackson – Bass
Scott Rockenfield – Drums
Produced, mixed, and engineered by Jason Slater
Writing Sessions
As mentioned previously, Queensryche had been on the road most of 2005, leaving producer Jason Slater doing most of the heavy lifting, music writing-wise, for Operation: Mindcrime II. Once the band got off the road, writing continued at Geoff Tate's house, as his basement was turned into a makeshift writing studio. According to Slater, Tate would come up with an outline, and then need a song for a particular scene that was based off a certain emotion. Then Slater and Mike Stone (who were staying at Tate's) would come up with the songs to match those emotions.
Once the music was decided upon, Tate would take that, disappear upstairs and come back eventually with lyrics. Much of Operation: Mindcrime II was written in this manner. Writing sessions for Michael Wilton were set up for him to contribute, which produced the basic riffs in what would eventually become “Murderer?” and “The Hands.”
Editor's Note: As was publicly revealed years later during the Queensryche lawsuit, there are differing statements on what went on, writing-wise, for Operation: Mindcrime II. In a nutshell, Wilton claimed he showed up for sessions to find the material already written and was quickly made to feel uncomfortable and unwanted. On the other hand, both Tate and Slater have said that Wilton showed up and didn't contribute anything.
There was also talk that allegedly Tate didn't write all the lyrics himself and that a ghost writer helped write some of the story. No one REALLY knows what is 100 percent accurate with the songwriting, but, like everything in life, the truth is probably in the middle somewhere.
What cannot be understated however, was just how critical both Slater and Stone were to Operation: Mindcrime II. Without them, the record (or any record by Queensryche during this period) likely does not get made.
Recording Sessions
Operation: Mindcrime II was recorded at Tate's house, and at Jason Slater's studio in Palo Alto, Calif. Assisting Slater during the sessions was guitarist Mitch Doran. Ashif Hakik did the orchestration on the album.
Vocals were recorded by Geoff Tate, Pamela Moore (various songs throughout the album, including the closer, “All the Promises”) and the late Ronnie James Dio (featured as the character “Dr. X” on “The Chase”). Tate's daughter Miranda also sings background vocals on “The Hands.” Rhythm and lead guitars were recorded by Mike Stone. Eddie Jackson recorded some bass, but not all, on the album.
As for the rest of Queensryche, some of it is a mystery. Drum-wise, allegedly Scott Rockenfield recorded his drums at home. But Jason Slater has also said that allegedly the performance wasn't nearly as intricate as needed. As a result, some of the drums are completely removed and re-programmed by Slater. Drummer Matt Lucich also recorded some of the drums. The extent of which that Rockenfield appears on the album is a mystery.
Slater, being a bassist, also recorded bass and some guitar tracks on the record. Allegedly, Mitch Doran wrote and recorded the guitar solo in “Murderer?” Wilton's recorded parts are allegedly minimal, consisting of the riffs in “Murderer?” and “The Hands,” along with some of “Hostage,” and perhaps the solo in "I'm American" (unconfirmed). Eddie Jackson recorded bass as well, but there is a mix of both his and Slater's playing on Operation: Mindcrime II.
“Hostage,” discussed earlier as meant for Tribe, was mostly re-recorded. The biggest change from the Tribe demo version to the final version was the addition of courtroom effects to make the tune become a “flashback” scene for Operation: Mindcrime II, and of course, the removal of Michael Wilton's initial solo, which was replaced by a slower, harmonized solo that was recorded by Mike Stone.
The Story and Songs
Stylistically, Operation: Mindcrime II is more of a Broadway-styled rock opera, as opposed to the heavy metal concept album that the original Operation: Mindcrime is. Operation: Mindcrime II leads off with Nikki being released from prison after 18 years of incarceration. Once he's a free man, Nikki is obsessed with getting revenge on Dr. X, particularly as the latter has grown rich and powerful while Nikki has been locked away.
Each song is a “chapter” or “scene” in the story. Ultimately, at the climax, Nikki confronts Dr. X, and kills him in cold blood. The rest of the story is Nikki struggling with his guilty conscience over the murder, as the voice of the dead Sister Mary haunts him. There are references once again to addiction, and Nikki succumbing to the needle. The conclusion of the tale finds Nikki either blowing up the city (as depicted in the inner album art) in “Fear City Slide,” (you can actually hear an explosion sound effect at the end of the song if you raise up the volume) or, as “A Junkie's Blues” hints at, the explosion could be Nikki flat-lining in a drug overdose. The final track, “All the Promises” is a duet between the dead Nikki and the dead Sister Mary, as his consciousness fades away.
Song-wise, with new writers in the fold, the idea was to capture the spirit of the original Operation: Mindcrime. The sequel does that, using motifs from various songs from the orignal album into Operation: Mindcrime II. If you listen closely in “The Hands,” and “A Junkie's Blues,” you'll hear some familiar callbacks.
The album isn't quite a throwback, however. "Re-Arrange You" is completely driven in the verses by orchestration, which isn't something Queensryche had done previously. The song is aggressive throughout and ramps up further in the chorus when the guitars come in. But it certainly has a unique sound for the band. In addition, the legendary Ronnie James Dio takes up lead vocals on "The Chase" with Tate, marking the first and last time a singer of Dio's caliber shared lead vocal duties on a Queensryche record.
The one song, however, that doesn't quite sound like the rest, is “Hostage,” for reasons already discussed. But generally, Operation: Mindcrime II features a mix of Slater's and Stone's respective writing styles. For example, as explained to me by Slater, the tune “One Foot in Hell” was something Stone came up with. Originally, however, the song was a bluesy number. Slater took it and re-arranged it a bit to sound more like a traditional Queensryche song.
Videos were made for the songs "I'm American" and "The Hands." Both tied into the concept to help drive the story along.
Reception and Touring
Operation: Mindcrime II was received fairly well by both the press and the public. There was a sizeable amount of fans that didn't believe a sequel should have been attempted. But despite that sentiment, critics lauded the record as a return-to-form for Queensryche.
One of the things revealed by Jason Slater was that he was very conscious of noting what fans wanted out of a Queensryche record, and he did his best to give it to them. From more aggressive songs to great guitar solos, he observed what fans were saying online, and tried to marry those wishes that with the material.
Operation: Mindcrime II was also the band's first financially successful record in quite some time (since Empire). Based on album sales, Rhino Records was able to recoup the advance they gave Queensryche to make the record in the first month of the album's release. (This was partly due to writing and recording at Tate's and also at Slater's studio.) So, following that, the revenue from album sales went directly to the band and songwriters. Succinctly put, Operation: Mindcrime II was a slam dunk, financially, for all involved.
Queensryche hit the road in summer 2006 to play the European festivals. The entirety of Operation: Mindcrime II was not performed, although various cuts from it were. Pamela Moore accompanied Queensryche on tour for it, singing background vocals and her lead vocals when needed.
The Operation: Mindcrime II tour began in earnest later that fall. It was, production-wise and length-wise the biggest tour Queensryche had undertaken in almost a decade. It featured complete performances of the original Operation: Mindcrime and Operation: Mindcrime II, and a two-song encore. The show spanned well over two hours with an intermission between the performance of each record.
The band's staging from across its history (as far back as pieces of Scott's drum riser from the Rage for Order tour) was taken out of storage and ripped apart to make new staging for the tour. There was a courtroom scene, a scene with Sister Mary committing suicide, and various other sets throughout the show. Most of the actors were members of the crew, and some fans got selected each show to sit in the “jury box” during “Hostage.”
Queensryche toured relentlessly in North America on the two releases through the end of 2006. They recorded three nights at the Moore Theater in Seattle on October 13, 14, 15 for a CD/DVD package that would be released in 2007.
Samsara's top-3 tracks from Operation: Mindcrime II – Re-Arrange You, Murderer, Signs Say Go
Mindcrime at the Moore (2007)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/ca/Queensryche_-_Mindcrime_at_the_Moore_cover.jpg/220px-Queensryche_-_Mindcrime_at_the_Moore_cover.jpg)
Vocals: Geoff Tate
Guitars: Mike Stone
Guitars: Michael Wilton
Bass: Eddie Jackson
Drums: Scott Rockenfield
Additional Vocals: Pamela Moore
In July 2007, Queensryche released Mindcrime at the Moore, its 2 CD/DVD (and eventually Blu-ray a couple years later) set that documented the 2006 Operation: Mindcrime and Operation: Mindcrime II tour. Recorded over three nights at the Moore Theater in Seattle in late 2006, Mindcrime at the Moore is 34 tracks in length, the set is also notable for the DVD carrying the one performance Ronnie James Dio did of “The Chase” with Queensryche as an extra/bonus cut on the special features of the disc. That took place in Los Angeles.
Queensryche didn't do a tour specifically to support the release in 2007. However, the band did play sporadic dates playing an abridged version of both Mindcrime albums in Japan, and a few other markets. The Japan dates are notable, as it is the first time Queensryche had played Japan since the Road to the Promised Land tour in 1995 (and I assume fences were mended with promoters given the 2001 shows the band did not fly to).
Editor's Notes: There were some issues with recording at the Moore Theater. Allegedly, the first night's performance was unusable. The second and third nights were used for the recording. Geoff Tate was also sick with a bad cold for the entire slate of shows. In addition, it should be noted that Mindcrime at the Moore was set to have the below art as its cover, before a decision was made to instead use the one that highlighted Geoff Tate.
(https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/mcmoore-original.jpg)
Queensryche circa 2006-2007:
(https://100xr.com/artists/Q/Queensryche/Queensryche.jpg)
Next Up: 2007-2008 Tours and Take Cover
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Now that I read about it, I almost feel bad for first anticipating, and then moderately enjoying Mindcrime II :lol
I mean, such a legendary album should have never had a sequel, and if it had to have one, it should have all about the band members wanting to do it, not the band needing money and the first producer walking by writing it. It's like having someone else write Metropolis pt.2 for DT after some disliked albums!
Still, I like it, and the duet with Dio in The Chase is an absolute highlight.
The tour for this album finally gave me the chance to see them live for the first time. And what a way to start!!! I know, I know, people like me that love Mindcrime above anything else are a bit like people knowing only More than Words from Extreme, but c'mon, the (original, of course) album is just that amazingly mindblowingly good. So, from the second row (and eventually first in the second set, someone walked away), I managed to see the entire Operation Mindcrime album, the sequel of course, and then the first encore song was Jet City Woman, then Geoff said "One more?" and they played Empire. I thought that was it - Mindcrime at the Moore was already out by that time so I knew there were two encore songs, but Geoff asked once again "One more?"... and they played Silent Lucidity.
I know most of you are sick of the song by now, but we've all heard Fear of the Dark and Enter Sandman live for the first time once. So, the first time I see Queensryche I get their whole damn best album and Jet City Woman, Empire AND Silent Lucidity as encore... color me more than satisfied!!!
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I know most of you are sick of the song by now, but we've all heard Fear of the Dark and Enter Sandman live for the first time once. So, the first time I see Queensryche I get their whole damn best album and Jet City Woman, Empire AND Silent Lucidity as encore... color me more than satisfied!!!
Well, they may have been played to death, but they are still fantastic songs, so you'll get no grief from me.
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They are fantastic songs and personally I never get sick of O:MC. Love that album. However, O:MC2 was disappointing and after reading Samsara's write up, it doesn't surprise me that money was the reason they did it.
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As I've said, QR were dead to me by this time. When I heard the stories that they were doing O:MII, I really didn't want them to do it. The original is my joint favourite album of all time and QR were now fucking shit. It was going to be awful.
I bought it, of course. I had to. And I didn't hate it. I even enjoyed some of it.
I was oblivious to the way it was made until I read the Slater interview over on Samsara's site, but it makes sense.
QR couldn't make a QR album, they'd proved that over recent years, but someone else had the sense to at least try.
I really liked the DIO duet.
I even went to see them on the tour at Manchester Academy - I'd had an operation on my wrist and was in a cast, and I drew a tri ryche on it that hot a lot of compliments on the night it was a good gig.
Still, it should never have been made.
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Slater is a VERY good writer. I'll post a more detailed writeup later. But I will say that one thing he figured out early on, and even more so on the next album, was how to write songs that sounded like Queensryche.
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During this time period, I was getting rejuvenated with Queensryche. Hearing the set list, and performances of Queensryche from the Judas Priest tour really got my interest going along with knowing that a sequal to O:M was upcoming. I didn't know any behind the scenes information, so I figured that the band was back on track and trying to turn the ship around towards a metal/hard rock direction.
Hearing "I'm American" from the Priest tour confirmed to me at least that the band was going in the right direction. I figured at the very least, there would be one new track on O:M2 that was a fast ass kicker.
I saw them perform in September 2005 and I was very impressed. This was the first time I saw the band (and only time) and I thought Geoff sounded better than he had in years. Band sounded great, songs sounded great, and the tease of "Hostage" at the end of the show really got me pumped up for the release of O:M2. This was probably the most excited I've been for an upcoming release.
When I bought it first day, I was impressed overall. It was nice to actually hear QR play some heavier tunes along with having some guitar solos. But I noticed the second half of the album was a major downgrade into the sap fest zone and mid tempo music they had been putting out the last decade. So I guess you could say I was happy and slightly disappointed at the exact same time. But I played the heck out of that cd for the fist month- Re Arrange You, Hostage, Murderer, Chase, Im American are the standouts. But the novelty I guess wore off abit after that month, because I have probably only played that cd in its entirety maybe 10 times since that first month of playing. Good album overall though.
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As for the record itself. I came into this record upon purchase, not knowing any of the behind the scenes background or controversy as to who actually wrote and played on it and what not, with the presumption that there wasn't much of a chance that it would be anything short of a let down, given the fact that the original is an untouchable, I thought they had brass balls to even try it. I gave it a fair opportunity, I listened to it several times almost trying to force myself to accept and like it. The end result of that.... I thoroughly enjoyed I'm American, The Hands, Murderer, and Hostage. I thought the Dio duet thing was half decent as well. Beyond that I thought everything else was sub par and of no real interest.
As time went on, I continued to pull it out mainly for the songs aforementioned, but I would periodically skim through other songs or play it in it's entirety again, seeing if it resonated differently to me. To this day I stick with those four songs as my standouts, everything else on this record quite honestly would not be out of place on Frequency Unknown or Geoff's first two records of the trilogy, nothing really stands out and some of the faster tracks are just too cluttered with too much background noise going on.
This time period, however was awesome, from the standpoint of the live shows, both in quality and reception from the fans as well as the sheer number of shows the band were performing during this two year period of 2005-2006. I saw the band live during this two year stretch a total of ten times (seven times in 2005, and three times in 2006), eight of those being headlining shows, and two with the Priest tour. Every time I turned around they were back in my area. The shows I attended were:
2/1/05 Turning Stone Casino (Verona NY)
2/2/05 Northern Lights (Clifton Park NY)
2/5/05 Electric Factory (Philadelphia PA)
6/10/05 PNC Arts Center (Holmdel NJ) w/ Judas Priest
6/18/05 Tweeter Center (Camden NJ) w/ Judas Priest
10/6/05 State Theatre (New Brunswick NJ)
10/7/05 Borgata Casino (Atlantic City NJ)
9/23/06 House of Blues (Atlantic City NJ)
11/3/06 Electric Factory (Philadelphia PA)
11/8/06 State Theatre (New Brunswick NJ)
Never before and never since have I seen the band, or any band for that matter, so many times in any where near a short span like this. So that part of it was very cool and was a memorable time to be a fan in my book.
The album itself. It's kinda right up there with HITNF, Q2K, and Tribe in my opinion. Each of those all contain on average about four or five songs that I fully enjoy and appreciate. This however would be the last album until the 2013 S/T album with Todd, that I can say that about, as the last two with Tate (studio records, omitting Take Cover) to me contained very little to get excited about. Also after learning that OMII wasn't much of a total band effort and the background of the album, I have long given up any and all effort to try and appreciate the record further than where it already stands.
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When I first heard that QR wanted to make O:M II I was strongly opposed. It could only blow and kind of tarnish the legacy of the original.
When the album was dropped I thought it half decent, it wasn’t as terrible as I feared. O:M II starts strong but loses a lot of steam in the second half, it just goes on too long. And the story isn’t half as interesting as the original.
But the biggest problem I have with it is that it’s all about the money. I felt like the band lost their integrity. Up to this they seemed to do what they wanted to do, regardless of quality. I hated Tribe but I still thought it was what QR wanted to do at the time, so from an artistic standpoint is was okay to do it. The idea of O:M II just yelled sell-out to me. And the details of the writing and recording (although I didn’t know it at that time) just confirmed it.
I understand that they had bills to pay and everyone has to make a living, but for me this was a turning point. They were no longer a band with a vision but another one of those going through the motions. Doing records, going on tour but no longer really caring about their music.
And I think this is still the aftermath of DeGarmo leaving. Apart from the music and guitar playing, he was the one with the vision and he was the one to steer the band. After he left only Tate kinda tried to fill the void. The rest of the band just didn’t want to take any responsibility, they took their backseats and watched Tate running the band into the ground.
I never cared for Mindcrime At The Moore, never heard or saw it.
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Good God, what a terrible and messy way to make an album.
I'll give it a fair chance, though. What I think is important to realize is that, with every band, the chemistry and writing process change over time. Some members that were once very active take a back seat at some point and allow other people to come to the forefront. Some albums are band efforts, some are driven by one or two people in the band, some are influenced by outside writers. That's what makes a band history interesting. Judging from what I've known, this is the first album of the three-album-run of Tateryche - although Tate was also a dominant songwriter on Tribe and Q2K, this is officially the beginning of the era where the other band members got less important and Tate started hiring outside writers and performers.
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Mindcrime at the Moore - I own it and I watched it a few times, but I haven't been back to it since release time. Not that it was bad, just if I want to play O:M I'll put on Livecrime, and I'm very unlikely to play the sequel.
The thing about playing both back to back is that it highlights the gap in quality. I thought O:M2 was ok, but only in comparison with the last few QR albums. It's a million miles from being on a par with the first. And it was always going to be that way.
The original had become more than just an album - it had become legendary. How can you hope to meet that kind of expectation?
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I feel you Lowdz, I enjoyed seeing Mindcrime II live, but once I have seen the original album, I was already happy. Everything else was just a bonus, not "wow, we're only halfway through the show"... I already got what I came for.
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In 2006, I was still really into the band and had no problem with them releasing Mindcrime II. I don't feel that it tarnishes the legacy because it's not like the original album disappeared from our shelves when this one came out. I loved the first 1/2 of the album - it had a nice flow and the songs harkened back to the Queensryche of old. Geoff killed it on Rearrange you. But the story was completely pathetic.
Over time, I've come to really dislike the album. I have no interest in a disc that doesn't feature performances from the band members and it seems more cheesy than anything else. I think the production and sound of the disc is terrible too.
Mindcrime at the Moore - never bought the audio CD, but I did buy the DVD. I eventually sold it a handful of years later when I purged a bunch of my collection. I saw this tour once in Chicago and really enjoyed it, even though I had seen two of the Mindcrime 2005 shows, so half of it was the same. It was my 9th overall Queensryche show.
This was the last time I saw Geoff Tate sing with QR, and the last time I saw the band for 7 years, having seen them on every album's tour since 1999. I was getting burnt out on seeing them, hearing the same old schtick (Hey, you want to hear some old Queensryche......*band plays Walk in the Shadows*), and just getting into other bands and styles of metal.
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I will say that after taking the last two albums and live stuff off, O:M2 was the first QR album I bought since HITNF. I thought it might be interesting. It has been probably 10 years since I have listened to it. I remember that it was OK and then ran out of steam. But I also remember that they just didn't have the same magic.
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So, the story of Operation: Mindcrime II goes something like this:
1) Nicky gets out of jail, thinks about going after Dr. X then decides to go after Dr. X.
2) Nicky kills Dr. X.
3) Nicky kills himself.
That's basically it. Oh yeah, he seems to have a dialogue with Mary a couple of times, which goes unexplained to the best of my knowledge (though I've not dug into that because it's hardly worth it).
Questions such as...
- How in the hell is a mass murderer out of jail so soon? (perhaps they only ever tied him to Mary's death and let him off with diminished responsibility due to the volume of drugs in his system... but we don't know because no-one thought to question Tate on it).
- Did Operation: Mindcrime work? Apparently Dr. X has watched his fortune grow, but come on, surely the point of Mindcrime was way more than Dr. X making a few extra bucks, it was to overturn the political establishment, put his own guys in charge and build political influence and power?
- Given Dr. X's increase in wealth, let's assume he has also built up that political power base that was surely the aim of the game, why is it that Nicky's release from jail has gone unnoticed and he seems to have been able to pretty much just wander up to Dr. X and do him in with no resistance???
- How/why are we hearing Mary's voice occasionally and why is Nicky seemingly unperturbed by this?
...are avoided/ignored.
Instead we find out that Nicky is an American (and apparently living in 1985 as he has a skinny neck tie??????), he has one foot in hell, has the hands of a murderer, feels like he's a hostage to something (not sure what), laments losing a big chunk of life to prison time... then once he's done with Dr. X he's pretty sure he's done killing people, starts walking around in circles, wishes he could have his life back then decides to kill himself. Yay.
The irritating thing is that if you take the context of the original Mindcrime story away from it and just have a new story about someone getting out of jail, drifting for a while, trying to find meaning in a vendetta against the person who put him there, then losing meaning again after seeing through the vendetta and deciding that suicide's the only way out... then it'd probably not feel like such a shit excuse for a story. The big problem is that it's trying to be a character piece in the framework of much bigger story that's not addressed properly and leaves too many questions dangling leaving it seeming ill thought through.
Now, there are a few good songs on there and overall it's musically not bad. Hostage is a good song. The Signs Say Go/Re-Arrange You/The Chase trio is a good run, and the album closes superbly with Fear City Slide!
Oh wait... it doesn't close superbly with that one, we get an absolute clunker piece of nonsense finishing off the album instead :censored
Also, it sounds like a good set of demos rather than a professionally recorded effort.
Overall: 5/10. Take the Mindcrime II label off it and record it properly and I might've rated it higher, but the whole thing just leaves a bitter aftertaste. Mindcrime is my favourite album of all time... this is so far off that standard it's not funny.
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Mindcrime II...
Yeah, this was an interesting time. Forgive me, but I have a lot to say here.
Through the years, I hadn't really been plugged into the hardcore Queensryche community. I considered myself a fairly hardcore fan, since they had been my favorite band for about a decade. But I didn't really know that many who were more than casual Queensryche fans. But in the run from Promised Land up through Q2K, a lot of fans had jumped ship. I could be wrong, but I don't feel like they lost fans with Tribe. I think that with that album, they pretty much just held course. They definitely didn't bring many fans back. But those that were still following the band seem to have generally found enough to like with that album that they didn't leave.
Mindcrime II was different. It created a genuine buzz in the hard rock community about this album. Once it finally came out, I'm not sure it "won" a lot of fans back permanently into the Queensryche camp. But it generated a ton of interest that got people to buy the album and come see the shows, and a lot of that from fans that had previously walked away from the band.
My own take on the album is similar to the next Tate/Slater offering: There is some REALLY good stuff going on, but so many bad decisions and missed opportunities as well that drag the album down.
I remember hearing The Hands when it debuted, and for the most part, I couldn't be happier. The "oooo! ahhh!" background vocals were cheesy and a bit out of place. But aside from that, it is a really solid song. And most importantly, it sounded like Queensryche. AND it had just enough subtle callbacks/reprises to Mindcrime to make a positive connection to the original without that being overdone. This song got me legitimately excited about Mindcrime II and the prospect that the band could actually pull off something credible.
Let me once again say that I think Slater nailed it. The dude really did an outstanding job of studying what made Queensryche sound like Queensryche, and bringing that to this album. If his helping the band write an album could get them reconnected with their classic sound like this, I was all for it. Of course, I had no idea at the time just how much the band was excluded. That was a problem. Another problem that would become more apparent on the next two releases is that, while Slater was doing a great job of channeling early Queensryche, he unfortunately did not carry enough influence to coax Geoff's best from him. And for this album, that was fine. There are definitely some weak Tate moments. But overall, I think Geoff was either in a place where the vocal deterioration wasn't hampering him as much, or he was self-motivated enough just by doing a Mindcrime sequel, or a combination of both that he mostly sounded pretty good on this album.
This album's biggest weakness, to me, is a combination of the story and pacing of the album on the latter half. And I mention those together because I think they fed each other. One of the reasons the album takes the turn it does and loses so much momentum is because the story Geoff wrote called for that. So Slater's hands were tied somewhat by that. I mean, on its own, the concept is actually kind of cool: Nikki is driven for revenge. But the twist is that, once he has it, he is left empty. And driven by that emptiness, the ghosts of his past, and his lost love, he is utterly consumed and destroyed. On paper, that totally works. But in execution, it fails. The story just wanders a bit aimlessly toward the end. And the love story takes the center stage and feels so out of place and...well, just dumb.
To me, the album is OUTSTANDING through Re-Arrange You. Speed of Light is really the only break in the pace, and I really like the vibe of that song and what it adds to the album. The first sign of trouble is The Chase. At first, I loved it. I mean, it had Dio! Come on! But it was just so over the top and melodramatic that I feel it ultimately took away from the album more than it added to it, and that's a shame and a HUGE missed opportunity. RJD doing a guest spot on your metal album should unquestionably be the high point. Here, it fell flat. And the stupid imagery from the live presentation that is forever burned into my mind didn't do the song any favors.
From there, the album is really hit and miss. There are still some high points. But lots of lows as well. Murderer? has some cool moments. Circles is different, but interesting. If I Could Change It All...just no. An Intentional Confrontation is another one that had some cool moments that leaves me feeling like it could have been so much more. A Junkie's Blues is a decent song. And the orchestrated Anarchy X reprise is AMAZING. But the album just seems to have wandered too far astray by this point to feel like it matters. Kind of the same with Fear City Slide. Pretty cool song. But not strong enough to bring the album back. Although if it ended here, or with some big instrumental reprise that somehow brought the story full circle, I think that would have made the album as a whole a lot stronger. But instead, we end with...All the Promises. I'll just say that, as I was revisiting the album this morning to do this writeup, I just turned it off a few seconds into this song. I just couldn't be bothered. I see what Geoff was trying to do. But this is just NOT how you end your epic sequel to your epic concept album masterpiece. I really hesitate to substitute my judgment for an artist's because the artist is ultimately in the best position to know what he or she wants to do to try to artistically realize his or her vision. But I think ending the story this way was a huge mistake. If Geoff viewed having a huge rocker or epic track as the closer as too cliché or predictable, I get that. But at the end of the day, there's a reason concept albums typically end that way: it works. This ending, unfortunately, does not. And that is why this album, overall, fails. I mean, overall, I think it's a "good" album, at least from the standpoint of the quality of music. The first half is really good and leaves me a satisfied Queensryche fan. But as a concept/story, it just doesn't cut it. And since it is all about the concept/story, that failure to execute drags it down as a whole.
But do I like it or do I hate it? That is actually really difficult to answer. I think the answer is: both. There are things I really like about it. And I enjoy it overall when I revisit it (which I still do). But it also has a stigma that I can't shake. So it's a mixed bag.
This album was a calculated risk. It was destined to pull fans back in and make money. But it was also destined to disappoint. It couldn't possibly have lived up to its predecessor just because that earlier album is so legendary. I get that it was done out of necessity for the band's continued survival. I can't criticize that too much, and if I'm in their shoes and someone pitches the idea to me, I would have said, without reservation, "yes, let's do it." But I think it was a short-term gain and long-term loss because, to many, it really put a serious dent in the band's credibility, especially when the behind-the-scenes details eventually came to light. And the way the writing went down, I think it caused irreparable harm internally that would fester and grow until the split.
But the album did bring some commercial success and got the band out on the road and back into the conversation in the hard rock community. This was a good thing. I did not see the band on this tour cycle. For whatever reason, it just didn't work out. Coinciding with Take Cover, I got a copy of Mindcrime at the Moore courtesy of the band. (more on that later when we get to that timeframe) Presenting both Mindcrimes together was an interesting choice. And the presentation itself I thought was pretty cool. It was different. But I felt that it worked and had some cool moments. As someone else said, one perhaps unintentional negative consequence is that it highlighted the difference in quality between the two albums. I can mostly agree. But I don't think it was that much of a problem until the latter half of Mindcrime 2. But one more serious thing I think it highlighted was that Stone was not the best fit for the band. He is a heck of a player. But I remember him being criticized by a lot of fans for not being true enough to the original solos when he soloed on songs. I disagreed at the time and defended his right to put his own spin on things. To me, the bigger problem was his shrill tone, and his overall stage presence, image, sound just didn't seem to quite mesh with the band as a whole. The other subtle problem with Mindcrime at the Moore was the album/DVD cover. As details of the band's inner workings had begun to be discussed more and more, that cover seemed to take on a different significance. It was telling that the only band member on the cover was Geoff, and that he was at the center facing the fans. That didn't sit right with a lot of us. Partly because of the cracks that had begun to show in the band and because Mindcrime 2 ultimately fell flat once the initial hype and hysteria began to wear off, there were rumblings among the fan base that were anything but positive. And what should have been a reinvigorating of the fan base was instead something that left many questioning the future of the band.
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One thing I do remember about those live shows where both Mindcrimes were performed was the entire Mindcrime II set really tested the crowds patience. There were lots of yawns, bathroom breaks, bar runs, people deviating away from the music and conversing. It was definitely a bring down and mood killer with only a handful of high points. But was well worth it for the original album performance, the few best tracks from OMII and the encores. I remember being pretty damn bored and really having to force myself to stay interested and try to pay attention during the Mindcrime II sets, as I too was practically uninterested and nodding off.
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One thing I do remember about those live shows where both Mindcrimes were performed was the entire Mindcrime II set really tested the crowds patience. There were lots of yawns, bathroom breaks, bar runs, people deviating away from the music and conversing. It was definitely a bring down and mood killer with only a handful of high points. But was well worth it for the original album performance, the few best tracks from OMII and the encores. I remember being pretty damn bored and really having to force myself to stay interested and try to pay attention during the Mindcrime II sets, as I too was practically uninterested and nodding off.
That was my experience too. I got a hold of the album mostly because I was going to the shows but the album did little for me and so we had it all sussed out. The OM1 set , then bathroom breaks and pass outs for McDonalds and came back for the encore ;D
I only listened to it a couple of times and that was my only album purchase between HITNF and the s/t with Todd.............pretty sad for a band that was all time Top 5 for me.
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yeah I saw them on that tour and pretty much the same thing. Once the Mindcrime 2 songs hit it was like a balloon getting deflated. The air got pumped back in when the encores hit. Surely the band recognized this.
I don't remember much from the album, just the first half being pretty good but the second half shithouse.
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At this point my interest in QR tanked. I viewed OMII as little more than a Tate-fueled cash grab and the ultimate example of, "just because you can, doesn't mean you should." The fact that it was largely written by outsiders and had little contributions from the actual band (although just how little the band had to do it wasn't fully known until later) was always disappointing to me, especially considering how much Wilton had to do with the original. I thought the mix was bland and there was little that connected it to the original. At this point, I had effectively moved on and didn't buy any QR until the self titled in 2013.
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I was excited about O:M2 coming out. Really enjoyed the album. Thoroughly loved the live show. Don't think I've heard the entire O:M2 in about 8 or 9 years. Too many fictional characters. :)
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This is where thr band fell off the earth for me. I listened to it three or four times and I don't think I've touched it since. I jumped back on board when Todd join the band.
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This is where thr band fell off the earth for me. I listened to it three or four times and I don't think I've touched it since. I jumped back on board when Todd join the band.
You sure as hell weren't alone. I think a large majority of the fan base that stuck around up to this point, shortly thereafter departed and continued to do so from 2007 through 2012's implosion, that is until 2013's resurgence and welcomed re-birth which have brought most of them back and deservedly so.
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I think Operation Mindcrime II is a very impressive and versatile album, but it sure was upsetting to learn that the founding members of the band had minimal contributions to the writing sessions. There were many moments that genuinely felt like a return-to-form for Queensryche. Obviously it was never going to be as jaw-droppingly epic as Operation Mindcrime, but it was just so nice to hear the band concentrating on heavy metal again.
In addition to the many frenetic guitar solos and aggressive tunes, it also made me happy to hear sound effects being employed again, and I loved the haunting atmosphere in If I Could Change it All (that ending gave me chills the first time I heard it). My other favorites are Hostage, All the Promises, The Hands, and Re-Arrange You (featuring Geoff's best vocals in many years).
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Mindcrime II is way better than it should've been or deserves to be. It's not great, but it's a major step up compared to some of what has come before. I actually have the CD for this and was familiar prior to the thread, but it's even more mind boggling in context of the band's history. I figured at least Tribe might build up to this quality wise, but turns out that's not really the case.
The album's biggest success is that the songs are pretty good. I didn't know the album was basically written by Slater, but he did a good job. I forgot how catchy some of the songs were, like The Hands and Re-Arrange You (I love the orchestral stuff). Musically it's far better than anything since HITNF. However, I will disagree with Bosk that Slater made it sound like Queensryche. I suppose at this point you could really argue about what that even means after so many stylistic changes, but I would expect a Mindcrime sequel to sound like Mindcrime. To me it sounds like a completely different band. I hear less progressive Metal and more early 00's Hard Rock and even Nu Metal. But it's a moot point, Slater wrote some good tunes.
And that's pretty much all the nice things I have to say about it. After Re-Arrange You, there are some really big WTF moments. Murderer is just a mess, The Chase is disappointing, and the rest just gets bogged down in mediocre songs that are obviously meant to move the story and not much more. The original Mindcrime also suffers from that toward the end, but it's such a brief decline. With Mindcrime II, pretty much the entire second half of the album is throwaway.
The story is awful. It's simple, uninteresting, answers questions that nobody asked, and even manages to wreck aspects of the original story. I think the live performance also retconned parts of the original? Been awhile since I watched that. Not surprising at all to learn that they mostly did this for financial reasons. I will say Fear City Slide is a bit of a hidden gem and a couple other songs have some OK moments.
Samsara, I have to say after reading about how involved DeGarmo was with the vocal melodies, his absence is felt so much more for me on these albums. I always thought something about Geoff's vocals on Mindcrime were off, and I still think that's partly due to his voice just not aging well, but the lack of captivating vocal melodies really stuck out to me on this listen. Tate is the MVP on the original Mindcrime but he owes a lot to DeGarmo. On Mindcrime II he's a weak link.
The production is so bad. It just sounds weak and flat. The drums might as well be a machine, again not surprised at all to learn there were problems with the drums. And honestly if it's true that Rockenfield's drumming wasn't intricate enough or whatever, his original takes must have been pretty bad because the final product is pretty average. Guitar sound is also bad. I can't really tell who's who as far as solos go, but some of the lead tones are just ugly. The rhythm tones aren't great either. The production in general is also muddy. Especially The Chase, Dio is almost buried at times.
Speaking of The Chase: I first heard the album around the time Dio died. He was an early discovery for me so I was a big fan of his before, but it was mostly limited to his work in the 80s. Dio's death inspired me to get into his back catalog more, especially Rainbow. After hearing masterpieces like Rising, I couldn't believe that Dio would appear on such a meh song. If you're going to get Dio on your track it can't be anything less than spectacular. I guess its place in the story is pivotal, but musically it just kind of seems like a throwaway. Still, a testament to his greatness, Dio turns in a great performance.
Overall, after all the bizarre twists and turns throughout Queensryche's history, Mindcrime II has to be the biggest head scratcher. There are aspects of it that are exactly what you'd expect, especially with the story, but it's also not nearly as bad as you'd expect either. This would've been the final nail in the coffin for a lot of other bands, but somehow it seemed to do a lot of course correcting for them too.
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I like The Chase, of course it's because of Dio, but I think he shines on that. "Believe me or not, you owe me! ("I owe you nothing!" ) - I gave your life a purpouse!!!" gets me everytime.
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I love OM II
Growing up, my household was way behind technologically and had only just gotten the internet around 2005, so my life basically was "go to store, buy album, and listen to album"
There was no going online like it is today where I know every single aspect of the behind the scenes story. So when OM II released, all I knew was that a band I loved was releasing a sequel to an album I loved. So I just listened to it for what it was and throughly enjoyed it.
It was years later that I found out that QR had nothing to do with writing the album and I wholesale just washed my hands of it on principle. I felt nauseous reading that the producer basically came up with the whole thing. I felt lied to and didn't listen to the album for a long long time.
Now a days, I've let all that go and just listen to and enjoy the album. Its super catchy and sticks in my mind for days on end after listening to it, just as it did back in 2006. I've grown to appreciate it too in the fact that every single QR album post Promised land and pre-Todd pretty much do nothing for me besides OM II, so I do treasure it in that way.
And honestly, It allows me not to burn out on OM I. Its gives me somewhere to go when I still have an appetite for OM, but don't want to over listen to part 1.
Do I still think its BS that it has the QR name without having QR imput? Absolutely yes, but whatever. QR is back on track with Todd, so fuck it.
And I utterly love All the promises.
TL:DR I love OM II, despite the bullshit
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A golfing buddy lent me O:M2 a couple of days before we saw QR in Baltimore. Gave it a couple of spins, and other than a couple tracks, it did absolutely nothing for me. After seeing them at The Palace of Auburn Hills in 91, Wings Stadium in Kzoo in 94 to mostly sold out shows, Van Andel Arena in Grand Rapids in 97, Pier Six Pavilion w/ Dream Theater in '03, they are now down to RamsHead, a club with a capacity of 1500. My guess is there were 1000-1200 in attendance.
Managed to work my way to about four rows from the stage for O:M1, and certainly enjoyed the 'show'. But there was also a sadness in the whole setting as well. Stood with my friend at the bar during the break before he went home, watched the first 10-15 minutes of the second set from about 30' away, and then went back to the bar and watched it on their TVs. I do recall Tate on sax for 'Welcome To The Machine' as being such an odd choice as one of the encores.
I gave the album one more chance a few days later. And that was it. Discovered I still had my copy a few weeks ago, stashed away in a TV stand in the basement. Tried it again during this review, listening to the first half minute of some songs. It went back into the box.
Such a cluster this turned out to be. Really appreciate all the in depth and 'historic' commentary. Also been following along with this website throughout the albums.
https://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/Queensr%C3%BFche/Operation:_Mindcrime_II/105300/
Obvious differing of opinions. At least I gave it a few more listens than the 'Thick as a Brick' sequel received from me.
[as a Queen fan, I'll comment on one other QR release, but I'll save that for later. 'Through the sorrow, all through our splendor......]
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I love OM II
Growing up, my household was way behind technologically and had only just gotten the internet around 2005, so my life basically was "go to store, buy album, and listen to album"
There was no going online like it is today where I know every single aspect of the behind the scenes story. So when OM II released, all I knew was that a band I loved was releasing a sequel to an album I loved. So I just listened to it for what it was and throughly enjoyed it.
It was years later that I found out that QR had nothing to do with writing the album and I wholesale just washed my hands of it on principle. I felt nauseous reading that the producer basically came up with the whole thing. I felt lied to and didn't listen to the album for a long long time.
Now a days, I've let all that go and just listen to and enjoy the album.
I think that's awesome. Sometimes I feel like it's not necessarily a good thing that we know so much about how a album, or a song, or whatever, came about. You listen to it, and you either like it or not, for the music and only the music.
I had a similar thing happen with the Yes album Union. After the classic band (Howe guitar, Wakeman keyboards) had given way to the 90125 lineup (Rabin guitar, Kaye keyboards), the Union album was the amazing all-eight-of them band. The concert was fantastic, and I expected nothing less from the album.
And I liked the album a lot. Didn't love it, but it wasn't bad for an attempted return to form after over a decade. Then I checked out the credits and liner notes, which revealed that there aren't actually any songs with all of them playing. They are very clearly tracks from ABWH, and some from YesWest, plus a solo Howe acoustic piece. Listening again, it was pretty obvious which was which. But there's also a shit-ton of "additional musicians". What's up with that? It turns out that there were a lot of overdubs, so many that they actually lost track of things and to this day, no one knows exactly which tracks Howe and Wakeman even played on, because some of their original takes were cut in favor of studio overdubs by hired guns, and sometimes overdubbed again. There has never before or since been a Yes album with so much material on it that they didn't write or play.
I couldn't listen to it any more. It bugged me that I didn't even know who I was listening to on any given song. Maybe ten years ago, I gave it another shot. Yeah, some of the songs are still pretty good, and I don't care much that half the studio musicians in California on it; that's not why I don't listen to it. I don't listen to it because they've got so many other albums that I just like better.
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I'll be generous and say Fear city slide is a great song. The Hands, Re-arrange you, I'm American and All the promises are also fairly solid.
The rest of the album didn't do a whole lot for me. The drama doesn't translate to me and I wasn't really pulled in by the dramatic, musical-ish instrumentals and guest vocals. It kind of goes on forever as well, the secon half truly loses me.
I decided I wouldn't mind about missing band members if the music itself did it for me - I would just give the tip of the hat to Tate and Jason. Unfortunately, even though I'm aware of all the hard work that went into this and dedication to making a true sounding Queensryche album, I didn't enjoy it too much. We'll see what American soldier has to offer once we get to it.
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I'll echo most sentiments here that I liked the first half of the album when I bought it, but it ran out of steam fast after five or six songs in. The last song is the lowpoint imho.
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2007-2008 Tours and Take Cover
After the success of Operation: Mindcrime II, Queensryche was hellbent on staying out on the road and touring. The band's popularity enjoyed a nice rise due to the last album, and that meant bigger guarantees from promoters. The first most significant tour was a summer stint opening for Heaven and Hell and Alice Cooper. Queensryche performed a slate of hits and a cover of Pink Floyd's “Welcome to the Machine,” which was announced as the first single off of what would be Queensryche's first album of cover songs, titled Take Cover.
Before that release however, was a compilation album titled Sign of the Times: The Best of Queensryche. It was a career-defining retrospective that was put out in 2007. It came in multiple versions. A single CD, a digital release, and a deluxe edition that had demos from Geoff's band prior to Queensryche (MYTH) that had songs with similar titles to Queensryche classics, and a variety of rarities and alternate versions.
The most anticipated track was "Justified," which was written by Chris DeGarmo and included on the deluxe edition. This track (as mentioned earlier) was meant for Tribe, and in the liner notes, you can see the Tribe-era portion of the recording credits, along with the finishing credits of it (I believe it was mixed by Terry Date). The lyrics are an interesting story about a relationship with a person attempting to reconcile with someone. Many fans have speculated that the lyrics are DeGarmo’s public ode to unify Queensryche and settle the differences that drove Chris away from the band. But that speculation has never been confirmed by DeGarmo or the other members of Queensryche.
The digital version of the single CD has an alternate track list, which drops "All the Promises" and includes "You" (if my memory is working) from Hear in the Now Frontier. The artwork was, frankly, beautiful, and done by Hugh Syme. The booklet features many images Syme put together from lyric lines in various Queensryche songs.
Cover art:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511gVRGSBsL._SY300_.jpg)
Take Cover (2007)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/58/Queensryche_-_Take_Cover_cover.jpg/220px-Queensryche_-_Take_Cover_cover.jpg)
Lead vocals - Geoff Tate
Guitars - Michael Wilton
Guitars - Mike Stone
Bass - Eddie Jackson
Drums - Scott Rockenfield
Released on Nov. 13, 2007, the 11-track Take Cover featured Queensryche's renditions of a number of progressive and hard rock artists, most notably the aforementioned Pink Floyd, Queen, Black Sabbath, Peter Gabriel, and U2, among others.
According to Jason Slater, who would once again helm the project, while a lot of the song choices were picked by the band, many of the arrangements were done by Slater. Unlike the previous record, Queensryche performs most of the material on the record, with some bits and pieces added by Slater and a session player by the name of Leo Larsen.
What was curious about Take Cover were the song choices. When the project was announced, fans guessed Queensryche would do a record full of its influences. While some were included (Black Sabbath and Pink Floyd), the rest of the heavier acts that inspired Queensryche's creation were not a part of the project, most notably Judas Priest and Iron Maiden. Speaking to Slater as the project wrapped up, he indicated to me that Geoff and the band didn't want to cover songs from those they thought were the band's peers, so that's why they didn't cover them.
In what was probably the most eye brow-raising choice, Queensryche did a rendition of the opera song “Odissea,” originally performed by Carlo Marrale and Salvatore Licitra. The band also included a live version of “Bullet the Blue Sky” by U2, which was recorded in 1999.
Reception
Take Cover was generally viewed as what it was – a stop gap release until a new studio album could be recorded. Fan reaction to the arrangements and performances was mostly positive, although there were some complaints regarding the lack of metal acts (other than Sabbath) on the release. The vocals were also criticized a bit. When asked after the fact about the vocals not sounding as well done as Operation: Mindcrime II, Slater admitted that Tate opted to record them himself, at his house in just one or two takes per song. (in contrast to recording them with Slater at his studio.)
Musically, Queensryche played very well. Tony Iommi heard Michael Wilton's solo in “Neon Knights” and complimented him on it. Wilton also provided a great solo in “Red Rain,” and a couple of other tracks on the album. Mike Stone was also very involved on the album, playing lead on just as many songs as Wilton, including “Welcome to the Machine.”
Touring
Queensryche embarked on a tour in support of Take Cover in 2007-2008. The tour was an interesting one, as the band decided to run a contest where they provided fans sections of three songs (“Welcome to the Machine,” “Neon Knights,” and “Synchronicity II”), and told to record their vocals. A winner would be chosen for each of the shows, and the singer would appear on-stage to perform the song with Queensryche. Ultimately, at the end of the U.S. tour, a winner would be selected out of all the performers, and that singer would get a guest role on Queensryche's next studio album. The winner was Vincent Solano (we'll get to his performance on the next record later on).
Queensryche toured throughout 2008 on the album, although it'd be a mistake to say the whole year was touring in support of Take Cover. It was mostly the early 2008 shows (through the show in Seattle on Mar. 1, 2008) that was really devoted to Take Cover. After that, Queensryche did a number of fly-in dates at casinos and fairs, and toured Europe again using a “hits” setlist, throwing in a cover tune or two along the way.
Samsara's top-2 on Take Cover: Welcome to the Machine, Red Rain.
Next up: American Soldier...
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I got into Queensryche around this time in the summer of 2008. I was a huge Iron Maiden fan at this point and frequently watched VH1 in my free time as a teenager to watch a bunch of old 80's metal-era music videos and came across the video for "I Don't Believe In Love" and then immediately becoming interested in the band. I didn't listen to anything new by them, but I got a hold of Operation: Mindcrime and the most recent Greatest Hits album they'd released at that point (I think it was called "Sign of the Times?").
I remember really loving the first half or so of that GH album and then not caring much for what I was hearing once it got into HITNF-era stuff onward. :lol In fact, I vividly remember deciding to check out the O:M2 track that was on there and really not liking it much and wondering how the hell the band got from Point A to Point B.
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Guys, I totally forgot the Sign of the Times release that came in 2007. Totally slipped my mind. Generally speaking, Queensryche released a career-defining retrospective called Sign of the Times - The Best of Queensryche in 2007. It came in multiple versions. A single CD, a digital release, and a deluxe edition that had demos from Geoff's band prior to Queensryche (MYTH) that had songs with similar titles to Queensryche classics, and a variety of rarities and alternate versions.
The most anticipated track was "Justified," which was written by Chris DeGarmo and included on the deluxe edition. This track (as mentioned earlier) was meant for Tribe, and in the liner notes, you can see the Tribe-era portion of the recording credits, along with the finishing credits of it (I believe it was mixed by Terry Date).
The digital version of the single CD has an alternate track list, which drops "All the Promises" and includes "You" (if my memory is working) from Hear in the Now Frontier.
I'll add this to the write-up. Sorry guys. Busy, busy weekend and week this week. I'll take more time and be more detailed on American Soldier.
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At the time, I loved cover albums, so this seemed cool. I was really surprised by the lack of metal songs, given that QR was a metal band. At least they had a few of them on there, but I didn't care for a lot of the songs when it came out.
Red Rain is the standout - Geoff's vocals fit that song perfectly and still sound so smooth. The metal songs like Neon Knights show that in 2007/2008, he couldn't hold a candle to Dio, who was touring with Heaven and Hell during those years and still knocking it out of the park every night. I like Welcome to the Machine too, and Bullet the Blue Sky takes me back to seeing them play it on the Q2K tour, when Wilton took his guitar off and held it by the strap over the front row. We all got to jump up and smack the strings to create the feedback/dissonant guitar sounds during the song.
Aside from that, I've completely lost interest in Take Cover. This is around the time that I started disliking the way Geoff's vocals were sounding on the studio albums, and the song choices mostly bore me. But again, props to Slater for coming up with some great arrangements to make these songs a bit more Queensryche, or at least to beef them up a bit.
And kudos to the band for the fan contest to sing on stage with them in each city. That's a really neat thing to do to tie in the covers album with the live show. But they didn't really play much from the album on the headlining tour - 2-3 songs at most.
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Take Cover was an interesting album. On one hand, covers albums usually aren't very noteworthy at all simply because they are just little stopgap projects to tide fans over until the next album. This one was noteworthy for some of the wrong reasons.
The songs: As Samsara pointed out, the song selection wasn't what most would have expected from the band. Yeah, there were some really cool selections. Metal versions of Welcome To the Machine and Synchronicity II? Sign me up! But lots that left a lot to be desired.
The vocals: Geoff Tate had turned in some spotty vocal performances in the past. But this was the first time on a studio album that he sounded truly awful and left fans astounded as to how a professional singer could have turned in such a subpar performance for a studio album and somehow thought it was fit for release. The vocals are far and away the weak link on this album, and this was the start of a VERY bad trend in that direction. The vocals SHOULD have been given more attention. Geoff's live vocals on Bullet the Blue Sky even tanked that song, which is a real shame. They could have overdubbed those.
For those reasons, the album got few spins from me. But again, it was "just a covers" album anyway, so I wasn't expecting much.
The tour was something different altogether. Unfortunately, it was also disappointing, but for much different reasons. Samsara mentioned the contest above. I entered with a cover of Neon Knights. And if I may say so myself, I killed it. Whoever was listening to the demos thought highly enough of my performance that I was chosen. Unfortunately, there was a logistical snag, and nobody notified me that I had been chosen until their tour manager called me 30 minutes before the show, which was a 2 hour drive away. There was just no way I could possibly make it.
What happened next was pretty cool. Susan Tate contacted me directly and apologized for the miscommunication. She then said that the contest had been canceled for the next show, Portland, but that if I could make it to that show, she could reinstate it because they had a couple of other entries as well. Another factor was that this was winter, and I had gotten really sick and completely lost my voice. So even if I had gotten notice of the S.F. show in time, it is doubtful that I could have sung anyway. This gave me an extra 2 days to try to let my voice recover. So I was in.
We drove up to Portland, dropped the kids off with some friends, and headed to the theater. My voice was STILL in really bad shape, so I was VERY nervous about whether I could sing at all. I talked to a few different people and got varying degrees of advice about how to play it, from doing lots of warmup to very little warmup, and lots of things in between. Ultimately, my voice was in a place where it was difficult to even talk, let alone sing. I did some VERY gentle warmup and figured that just resting the voice was the best option.
We arrived at the theater. Beautiful place in downtown Portland. I met Fozzy again the lobby and chatted just a bit. I also met the other two contestants, and we got a backstage tour and were told how the contest would work. For our trouble in having to drive all the way up there, my wife and I got to pick some shirts and other swag from the shop (and got free copies of the Mindcrime II CD and DVDs, as well as Take Cover). So, here's how the contest works: Before the opener, Fozzy and the tour manager go onstage and explain to the crowd what is going on. Each of the 3 contestants comes out and basically does karaoke to the backing track of the song they have chosen. After all 3, we all come back out on stage together and the crowd picks the winner by cheering, and Fozzy uses a db meter to see who got the loudest cheers. The other two contestants were girls, and they were pretty good. A girl named Robyn did Neon Knights and did a pretty good job with it. The next girl went and did Welcome. She did a good job as well, but not as good as Robin did with Neon Knights, so I knew it was going to be me or Robyn. Would my voice hold up? I got my answer halfway through the first verse. That first verse sounded fine, but I knew my voice would be gone by the end of the chorus. I ended up having to talk through the last few lines, unfortunately. So, that was that. Robyn won. I didn't get to come back and out and take the stage with the band later. But, hey, I got to basically do karaoke in front of 2,000 or so people, and it was fun, even if my voice did die on me halfway through. I then took my seat and just enjoyed the show.
And the show itself was pretty good. Don Dokken did an acoustic set as the opener. It was fairly entertaining. But, man, talk about a voice being blown out. His was gone. Queensryche's set was fun. It was a pretty good selection of songs spanning most of their albums, and a rarity or two as well (I believe this was the tour where they did Last Time in Paris--which setlist.fm confirms: https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/queensryche/2008/newmark-theatre-portland-or-3bd79888.html). It was a fun show, and a good time, even if I may have been admittedly VERY jealous when Robyn eventually took the stage to do Neon Knights, and I had to sit there and watch it knowing I could have done it better if my voice was there. But that said, no complaints. I had fun, and it was a cool experience nonetheless.
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Upon reading the latest entry, I was shocked to read that "All the Promises" was included on Sign of the Times: The Best of Queensryche. Unreal. I never bought that one, since I have the band's other greatest hits album.
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Great story, Bosk! :tup
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Upon reading the latest entry, I was shocked to read that "All the Promises" was included on Sign of the Times: The Best of Queensryche. Unreal. I never bought that one, since I have the band's other greatest hits album.
That was pretty well ridiculed when the album came out. Until There Was You and All the Promises were dropped to add Empire and You. Why they added two sappy ballads rather than including Empire and You, the former being one of the band's signature songs, and the latter being a nice, upbeat song, is beyond me.
There's really no point to the Sign of the Times compilation aside from Justified (which I still think is a boring song with dry production). The second disc with the rarities was neat, but the only unreleased songs were a few of the Myth demos, a few of the warning demos (yay, yet another version of Prophecy...) and Della Brown acoustic. The rest of the songs were already part of the bonus tracks from the album reissue series from 2003.
It would have been cooler if they put more of the demos out, especially those that differed from the album versions.
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I was hoping for more demos on that greatest hits, but the different renditions of songs was cool to hear. I thought the greatest hits from 2000 was a much better selection.
Take Cover did almost nothing for me. Besides the Sabbath tune and Red Rain, I really didn't like any of the songs on the release and ended up getting rid of it. This was the first album that Geoffs vocals stood out to me in a bad way.
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Red Rain is absolutely magnificent. I like Welcome to the Machine a lot too, but felt Stone was a tad shrill, and think they should have had Wilton do that solo. But the arrangement is really cool.
Here's my wife's submission. www.anybodylistening.net/images/neonknights-entry.mp3
She did a good job. It was a toss up between Neon and Machine, and we rolled the dice (unsuccessfully) with Neon. It was a lot of fun recording. My lone contribution was suggesting the harmonized vocals on "again and again," if I remember right. :lol
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What is the track listing on Take Cover?
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Red Rain is absolutely magnificent. I like Welcome to the Machine a lot too, but felt Stone was a tad shrill, and think they should have had Wilton do that solo. But the arrangement is really cool.
Here's my wife's submission. www.anybodylistening.net/images/neonknights-entry.mp3
She did a good job. It was a toss up between Neon and Machine, and we rolled the dice (unsuccessfully) with Neon. It was a lot of fun recording. My lone contribution was suggesting the harmonized vocals on "again and again," if I remember right. :lol
She sounds pretty good!
I am not sure how this was off my radar, save for the fact that the covers record was such a turn-off I distinctly remember just being over Queensryche at this point
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What is the track listing on Take Cover?
Welcome to the Machine
Heaven on Their Minds
Almost Cut My Hair
For What It's Worth
Innuendo
Neon Knights
Synchronicity II
Red Rain
Odiessa
Bullet the Blue Sky (live)
She sounds pretty good!
On her behalf, thank you. That was her first time in a professional recording studio with a real producer. She's since cut an EP of originals and cover tunes.
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Heaven on Their Minds
Almost Cut My Hair
For What It's Worth
Red Rain
Odiessa
I'm not familiar with these songs.
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At the time, Take cover came out and I took a listen and was like whatever. I didn't like their versions of the songs and didn't even really like the songs in general, so yeah. What evs
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The funny thing is that I regarded Take Cover as a Tate vanity project. One where he utterly failed. Seemed to me that half the songs were songs where the singer is supposed to stand out, and the bar is set high by earlier performances. Covering a particularly challenging song is about like a fake punt. Whether or not it was a great call or a damn-fool thing to do is 100% outcome driven, and this was pretty much a Chuck Pegano album.
Seriously, you're not going to beat Carl Anderson at his own game. Same with Queen and Bono.
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Great vocal performance from your wife Brian
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Who is Carl Anderson?
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Wish one could put likes or :tup next to posts, Bosk. That is one hell of a great story.
btw... Carl Anderson played Judas in the JC Superstar movie (as well as stage). And, don't get me started on 'Innuendo' (just yet) :omg:
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Who is Carl Anderson?
He's the reason Tate wanted to sing Heaven on their Minds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-voeq7Cebo
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Wish one could put likes or :tup next to posts, Bosk. That is one hell of a great story.
Thanks, man. A partial consolation prize as well was that, even though I didn't get the chance to sing with Queensryche at this show, which would have been amazing, I did get to sing onstage with Y&T for a similar type of contest a few months prior, in August of 2007. At that particular show, Jeff Scott Soto joined the band immediately after me and attempted the same song, and had to quit and turn it back over to Dave Meniketti halfway through. So I was pretty sympathetic to having one's voice fail in the middle of a song.
There is also an epilogue to the Portland story as well that has to do with me getting to do an after show meet and great with Queensryche. But I'm saving that for when we get to American Soldier.
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Heaven on Their Minds
Almost Cut My Hair
For What It's Worth
Red Rain
Odiessa
I'm not familiar with these songs.
I've never heard Take Cover, but I recognize some of those song titles. Of course, I was raised on the first two Crosby, Stills and Nash records, so I'm going to assume that "Almost Cut My Hair" is theirs. Red Rain is most likely a Peter Gabriel cover. And I can guarantee that you've heard "For What It's Worth" from Buffalo Springfield, but the song title might be throwing you off.
I'm not familiar with the other songs.
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. And I can guarantee that you've heard "For What It's Worth" from Buffalo Springfield, but the song title might be throwing you off.
Just checked. Definitely. Why on earth would QR want to cover that?
Just checked the QR version. What an absolute f'n piece of crap that is. Holy shit.
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. And I can guarantee that you've heard "For What It's Worth" from Buffalo Springfield, but the song title might be throwing you off.
Just checked. Definitely. Why on earth would QR want to cover that?
Just checked the QR version. What an absolute f'n piece of crap that is. Holy shit.
The only thing that I've ever heard is their cover of Queen's Innuendo. It was one of the worst musical experiences of my entire life, so I had no desire to hear the rest. I'm not surprised in the least to hear you mention that they managed to slaughter another classic as well.
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'Take Cover'....the gas masks say it all.
Take your thumb and forefinger, plug your nose, and that is how Tate sounds on 'Innuendo'.
And that is what you need to plug your nose from the stench of that release. Putrid!
What a frickin' embarrassment!!!
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Some of the cover tunes could have been nice in a Queensryche-like arrangement, but when I heard that Geoff wasn't giving a shit with his vocals I never cared to check them out. And to learn now that the arrangements weren't even done by the band but by Slater instead, leaves me scratching my head. So the band wouldn't even put some effort in the record? Why do it then in the first place?
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At one time.....for me
#1 Freddie Mercury [there is no one close]
#2 Steve Perry.
#3 Dennis DeYoung
#4 Geoff Tate
#5 Sammy Hagar, Bruce Dickinson (and I cannot stand Iron Maiden), Jon Anderson, the list goes on, but you get my gist
To say that I was frickin' excited x10 to hear QR's version, you have no idea. But you have to bring your 'A' game (not your D-)
To listen to how horrendous and nose pinching Mr. Tate was
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPmG4UCP7xo
and now, enjoy what 19M+ have enjoyed, and cleanse your ears of the previous stench
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2N0TkfrQhY
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Until Tate was given the heave-ho, OM:II would be the last QR effort I'd buy. I toyed with getting Take Cover for a while but never got round to it.
Eventually I heard the cover version of Innuendo :rollin Money well kept in my pocket.
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Queensryche embarked on a tour in support of Take Cover in 2007-2008. The tour was an interesting one, as the band decided to run a contest where they provided fans sections of three songs (“Welcome to the Machine,” “Neon Knights,” and “Synchronicity II”), and told to record their vocals. A winner would be chosen for each of the shows, and the singer would appear on-stage to perform the song with Queensryche. Ultimately, at the end of the U.S. tour, a winner would be selected out of all the performers, and that singer would get a guest role on Queensryche's next studio album. The winner was Vincent Solano (we'll get to his performance on the next record later on).
Vinnie Solano went to my high school. He was three years older than me. I remember him fronting a band called Wild Kitty in one of our HS talent shows in '91 or '92.
Pink zebra print spandex pants and all. :biggrin:
To this day, I don't know if I've ever heard his performance on American Soldier because I've never listened to the entire album.
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To this day, I don't know if I've ever heard his performance on American Soldier because I've never listened to the entire album.
Dude, it's probably the best song on American Soldier and one of the best post-DeGarmo songs the band has done. You should check it out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qjSmODTQsk
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Great vocal performance from your wife Brian
Thanks. If she had to do it all over again, I think she would have showcased more of her range. Her skill level has gone up a hundred fold after getting some tips from Pamela Moore. Her other covers (Iron Maiden and Living Colour) and original material are here - https://transworldtribe.bandcamp.com/album/defiance-e-p
I recommend checking out the original (Roller Coaster) and the Maiden cover. Those are my favorites.
Apologies to the non-singers in here for this brief off-topic nugget, but Pamela Moore is the real deal as a vocal instructor. Full disclosure, she is a personal friend, but I'm being very honest -- she's a damn good teacher. We were hanging out on a Saturday afternoon a couple summers ago, and the two of them (my wife and Pammy) disappeared for a bit. We (Pam's boyfriend and I) went down to find them, and Pam's showing my wife a technique to circumvent problems with sinuses, so that it is easier to get into your head voice. My wife's been singing her whole life, and that simple suggestion has opened up all sorts of things for her, vocally. I sing as well (I'm a baritone), and while not at the level of my wife, I had her show me what Pammy taught her, and once I got it, it was pretty eye-opening how much easier it was to transition to my head voice. So, if you're up in the Pac NW and want singing lessons, I highly recommend giving Pam a shout. It's well worth it.
Vinnie Solano went to my high school. He was three years older than me. I remember him fronting a band called Wild Kitty in one of our HS talent shows in '91 or '92.
Pink zebra print spandex pants and all. :biggrin:
To this day, I don't know if I've ever heard his performance on American Soldier because I've never listened to the entire album.
You really should check it out. The song is called "Dead Man's Words." Vinnie starts singing in the second verse, and then in spots throughout the rest of the song. It's one of the best songs on American Soldier. I am about halfway done with a long write-up on the record, and it's funny I Just read this, because I just wrote the paragraph that talks about this. :)
More on that, most likely Monday.
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Dude, it's probably the best song on American Soldier and one of the best post-DeGarmo songs the band has done. You should check it out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qjSmODTQsk
You really should check it out. The song is called "Dead Man's Words." Vinnie starts singing in the second verse, and then in spots throughout the rest of the song. It's one of the best songs on American Soldier. I am about halfway done with a long write-up on the record, and it's funny I Just read this, because I just wrote the paragraph that talks about this. :)
Two pretty positive reviews in about five minutes. I guess I'll be giving "Dead Man's Words" a listen sometime today. I'm surprised my curiosity about a fellow Hanover Park alumnus hasn't brought me to this song sooner. Looks like my revulsion towards this era won out. Until now.
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. And I can guarantee that you've heard "For What It's Worth" from Buffalo Springfield, but the song title might be throwing you off.
Just checked. Definitely. Why on earth would QR want to cover that?
Just checked the QR version. What an absolute f'n piece of crap that is. Holy shit.
:lol :lol ;D
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Never bothered with the best of. OM2 was the last album I bought before the s/t.
I've heard Take Cover and thought it was complete shit. Sounded like the 'Contractual Obligation ' album if ever I heard he. Tate sounded awful, and he tried to do opera? Maybe ten years earlier...
Production was shit.
Having enjoyed Gonna Get Close and Scarborough Fair, a QR covers album should have been good. Unfortunately QR didn't exist and we just had Tateryche.
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^Good description of the covers album, Lowdz. I can't disagree with any of that.
Going back to the best of album, the Myth demos, Waiting for the Kill, and the No Sanctuary demo were cool to include, and it's nice having The Real World, Infrared (acoustic), Diry Li'l Secret, Last Time in Paris, Scarborough Fair, Chasing Blue Sky, and Justified all in one place. That's 12 tracks that, IMO, make it a worthwhile purchase. I get that it's "not as good as it could have been," but still.
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American Soldier coming up on Monday. This write-up will be...a monster. It's the longest one I've done, and the most detailed, and has a bunch of imagery attached to it as well. For those of you following the thread, if you haven't listened to it in a while (or at all), give it a spin this weekend in preparation. It's safe to say that this will be the last time in the discography that a write-up will be this detailed. This one was a lot of fun to write.
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I'll check it out tomorrow when I got for a run in the morning.
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I'll check it out today.
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Not played AS in a long while. I don't have any great memories of it, though I know consensus is that it's a good album. Didn't do anything for me.
Will give it a go but this weekends mission is to get into the Threshold back catalogue and I think that will be more pleasurable tbh.
My prediction: The write up will be better than the album 😀
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Didn't mind the covers album. Yea Geoff Tate sounds really bad, but I liked the creative song selection and arrangements. Welcome To the Machine and Synchronicity II in particular stand out. Ironically, the worst cover IMO is Neon Knights. It's just kind of bland and adds nothing to the original. With that in mind, I think avoiding songs by Priest and Maiden was a good choice. Not only would they have further brought out Tate's vocal limitations, but they wouldn't have been anywhere near as interesting as some of the more oddball tunes they selected.
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I thought the same with Neon Nights. But Innuendo was the worst cover on there. The original is fantastic but QRs attempt was pitiful.
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Queen is one of those bands that any attempt to cover them is really taking a risk. I like some of what they did with the arrangement but Geoff Tate blew it. He took on one of Mercury's greatest vocal performances when his own voice was probably at its weakest.
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Queen is one of those bands that any attempt to cover them is really taking a risk. I like some of what they did with the arrangement but Geoff Tate blew it. He took on one of Mercury's greatest vocal performances when his own voice was probably at its weakest.
The production killed it as much as anything. The classical guitar part (or lack of) was a let down. And I agree, hardly anyone can outdo Freddie.
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Queen is one of those bands that any attempt to cover them is really taking a risk. I like some of what they did with the arrangement but Geoff Tate blew it. He took on one of Mercury's greatest vocal performances when his own voice was probably at its weakest.
The production killed it as much as anything. The classical guitar part (or lack of) was a let down. And I agree, hardly anyone can outdo Freddie.
Yet, Labrie f'n nailed it on the BC&SL cover album.
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Queen is one of those bands that any attempt to cover them is really taking a risk. I like some of what they did with the arrangement but Geoff Tate blew it. He took on one of Mercury's greatest vocal performances when his own voice was probably at its weakest.
The production killed it as much as anything. The classical guitar part (or lack of) was a let down. And I agree, hardly anyone can outdo Freddie.
Production was bad but at this point I've just come to expect that with Queensryche. Especially since this was just a stopgap release I wasn't expecting anything too polished.
Queen is one of those bands that any attempt to cover them is really taking a risk. I like some of what they did with the arrangement but Geoff Tate blew it. He took on one of Mercury's greatest vocal performances when his own voice was probably at its weakest.
The production killed it as much as anything. The classical guitar part (or lack of) was a let down. And I agree, hardly anyone can outdo Freddie.
Yet, Labrie f'n nailed it on the BC&SL cover album.
Yea, I actually don't think much of most of DT's covers but that is among the best and one of the best Queen covers period. Credit to MP too, love what he did with the backing vocals.
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I thought the DT Queen cover was excellent. I play that disc as much as BC&SL.
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Absolutely. That's the best Queen cover I've ever heard.
EDIT: I just listened to American soldier first time through. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it.
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^Good description of the covers album, Lowdz. I can't disagree with any of that.
Going back to the best of album, the Myth demos, Waiting for the Kill, and the No Sanctuary demo were cool to include, and it's nice having The Real World, Infrared (acoustic), Diry Li'l Secret, Last Time in Paris, Scarborough Fair, Chasing Blue Sky, and Justified all in one place. That's 12 tracks that, IMO, make it a worthwhile purchase. I get that it's "not as good as it could have been," but still.
I don't know if it was already said, but the prophecy on this album is the demo version from the warning recordings.
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I couldn't remember where that version was from and didn't look it up. But I don't include it in my list because there were two other VERY easily-obtainable versions out there already, and both are superior, IMO. Prphecy on Sign of the Times is pretty much a throwaway for me.
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I agree, maybe it's the "worst" version of the prophecy, but I found it interesting because it's the first and actually the last that I've heard! :o
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Hmmmmm.... I wonder if that's the same version that was on the Decline of Western Civilization Soundtrack? I really liked that version because it was the first one I ever heard, and I jammed out to that version in my car for 2 years before they ever even released the other version.
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I guess it's this version. I only think it's worst because the recording is at EP level. But I think it has its charm with its raw quality and energetic performance.
By the way, the soundtrack version on sale on googleplay nowadays is the same of RfO. I bought it :facepalm:
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American Soldier (2009)
(https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/as-finalcover.jpg) (https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/as-finalbackcover.jpg)
Lead Vocals – Geoff Tate
Lead & Rhythm Guitars – Michael Wilton
Bass Guitar – Eddie Jackson
Drums – Scott Rockenfield
Additional musicians:
Vocals on “A Dead Man's Words” - Vincent Solano
Vocals on “Home Again” - Emily Tate
Vocals (drill sergeant) on “Sliver” - AJ Fratto
Additional vocals – Jason Ames
Guitars – Damon Johnson
Guitars – Kelly Gray
During 2008, Queensryche announced its next album would focus lyrically around a theme of military service and war. As Geoff Tate tells it, he was inspired to write songs on the topic due to his father, a Korean War veteran, who finally (after many years of not wanting to speak about it) sat down and talked to Geoff about his combat experiences. Tate recorded the conversations with his father, and was convinced by his wife, Susan, to use his story as a template for Queensryche's next record.
To expand on the idea, Tate interviewed and recorded various American armed forces members while on tour in 2008, learning about war and military service through the experiences of those that lived it, and wanted to present their stories as they told it. The band bought into the idea, and the seeds of American Soldier were planted.
Songwriting & Recording
Musically, American Soldier was mostly written by producer Jason Slater. Work on the record commenced in mid-2008, with Slater writing songs while Queensryche was on the road. Slater also traveled up to Seattle multiple times that summer and fall (2008) to write with Tate and oversee some of the recording process.
Editor's note: In addition, American Soldier features a couple of unused tracks from the band Slave to the System – a side project of Kelly Gray and Scott Rockenfield, along with Brother Cane members Damon Johnson and Roman Glick. Those tracks were “Middle of Hell,” and “Home Again.” It was just the music to the songs, however. Tate wrote the lyrics.
American Soldier is unique for Queensryche in that it was the first album the band had made that didn't feature any actual songs written by the band members (other than Tate, who is credited as the sole lyricist on the record). Rockenfield received credit for the two songs he helped write musically with Slave to the System, but those weren't originally intended for Queensryche. It would be normal to assume then, that American Soldier probably doesn't sound much like Queensryche if no one in the actual band wrote anything for the record. Surprisingly, however, it most certainly does.
American Soldier is a 12-track effort consisting of moody hard rock, with some great guitar solos reminiscent of the Operation: Mindcrime and Empire eras written and recorded by Michael Wilton (note that solos aren't enough to get a writing credit). It's modern heavy rock and metal riffs, but with powerful, melodic choruses and good hooks. The album is mostly mid-tempo, but it has a few aggressive cuts and a couple of ballads to balance it out.
Here are the songs and who wrote them.
1. Sliver (Jason Slater/Geoff Tate)
2. Unafraid (Slater/Tate)
3. Hundred Mile Stare (Kelly Gray/Tate)
4. At 30,000 Ft. (Slater/Tate)
5. A Dead Man's Words (Slater/Tate)
6. The Killer (Slater/Tate)
7. Middle of Hell (Gray/Damon Johnson/Scott Rockenfield/Tate)
8. If I Were King (Slater/Tate)
9. Man Down! (Gray/Tate)
10. Remember Me (Slater/Tate)
11. Home Again (Gray/Johnson/Rockenfield/Tate)
12. The Voice (Slater/Tate)
Editor's note: In regard to the writing credits, Slater has said that he wrote “Man Down!” and it is improperly credited to Gray. What Gray's thought on the issue has never (to my knowledge) been publicly discussed.
The songs for American Soldier were all recorded by Wilton, Jackson, and Rockenfield. This differed from the Operation: Mindcrime II sessions, where the band only recorded certain parts of the album. As explained by Slater during the promotional cycle for American Soldier (sorry, I can't find anything that corroborates this, but I know I read it, and he did also say this to me at the time), once the band had the songs, they worked very hard to fine tune and tweak them to their playing style, and give the best performances possible for the album. The effort gave the record a distinctly Queensryche feel to it, despite the band's musicians not having written the material (aside from Wilton's solos, and Rockenfield's writing contributions to to the unused Slave to the System tracks).
Drums for American Soldier were recorded by Rockenfield at London Bridge Studios in Redmond, Wash. The rest of the album was recorded at the band members' personal home studios and a couple of other locations. Like Take Cover, the vocals were also done at Tate's house. Speaking of Take Cover, the winner of the Take Cover singing contest, Vincent Solano, recorded his vocals with Kelly Gray for the track “A Dead Man's Words.” Solano trades lead vocals on the song and does background vocals as well.
American Soldier is credited as being produced by “Jason Slater with Kelly Gray.” The real story isn't as clear cut, however. The project was...confusing.Technically, Slater produced the album. But he was asked by Tate to work with Gray on the project. Slater agreed, but under the condition that he (Slater) would mix the album, because the majority of the songs were written by him. Gray would engineer the sessions and record the band. The arrangement, however, was doomed from the start.
Gray lived near Tate (rumor has it he was living WITH the Tates at the time), and given his past experience recording, mixing, and producing bands (including Queensryche), he was capable of performing all the necessary tasks for the album himself. As labeled above, he wrote a couple tunes for it as well. In addition, the band was probably more comfortable with Gray than they were with Slater, particularly given what happened with outside people recording Operation: Mindcrime II.
As you can probably imagine, as the band recorded, Gray ended up doing initial mixes anyway, and showing them to Tate, who approved of the work as a final product. That was sent to Slater, who was extremely...irritated...and as a result, would remix things to his liking. That back-and-forth happened for the entire project and caused a great deal of drama. Ultimately, Gray was credited for American Soldier's engineering and mixing. But to-date, Slater maintains that not all of those mixes are Gray's.
There's a bunch of leftover material from the American Soldier sessions, including demos and alternate takes. One of the more notable tracks is a demo of “Unafraid” that has lyrics in the verses (instead of soldier commentary that is in the final cut) and Geoff singing in a style somewhat similar to “I'm American” from Operation: Mindcrime II. Mitch Doran, who was Slater's assistant during the Operation: Mindcrime II sessions, and later split off from Slater, claims that he wrote “Unafraid” with Tate, and posted the track on SoundCloud as proof of that claim a number of years ago. The final version of the song is credited to Slater/Tate.
As you'll hear below, the chorus in the original/demo version of “Unafraid” is the same, but the solo is obviously different, and there is more electronica in the demo version of the song (which in this writer's opinion, leads me to believe it was Slater's song that Doran embellished on, but that is solely my opinion).
"Unafraid” (demo) – https://soundcloud.com/mdoran13/unafraid-demo-mitchell-j-doran
The other demo of note is Slater's original version of “At 30,000 Ft.” While it hasn't been (to my knowledge) publicly shared, I've heard it, and it is a bit more Rage for Order era-like in its early form. The vocals are a bit more spacey, and the song overall is much more atmospheric and more reliant on keyboards. Slater's assistant at the time, a musician by the first name of Leo, most likely did the keyboards on the demo. Slater commented when he played it for me that he remembers having to convince Geoff to make it a bit heavier and guitar-oriented, which the final track certainly was.
Getting back to the album proper, however, overall, each track on American Soldier tells a certain aspect of a soldier's life. From the eye-opening experience of a fresh recruit hitting boot camp in “Sliver,” to returning home after war and dealing with PTSD in “Man Down!,” the record brings the listener into the boots of a soldier (notice the album cover tie-in). Whatever your opinion of the songs may be, it was a truly an inspiring approach for Tate to pursue.
Tate himself offered a track-by-track take on American Soldier. I ended up posting it at my old forum, The Breakdown Room, years ago (I don't even remember this), and BraveWords apparently picked it up – https://bravewords.com/news/queensryches-geoff-tate-offers-american-soldier-track-by-track-commentary.
Stone Departs
As the creative process for American Soldier was wrapping up in February 2009, Mike Stone made an announcement that he was leaving the band. You can see the Blabbermouth report here:
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/guitarist-mike-stone-quits-queensr-che/.
Stone had endeared himself to much of the fanbase over the six years he worked with the band, and while the press release was respectful, it didn't quite tell the whole story about his leaving. Yes, he had his side project, but rumor has it Stone was also doing what most musicians do – leveraging his involvement with Queensryche to help him get endorsements and other deals.
While that is a normal practice in the industry, it apparently did not sit well with the Tates. That, allegedly, was a major factor in Stone “leaving” (a.k.a. being fired from) the band. From what I recall, Michael Wilton was not at all happy with the decision, particularly after building a good chemistry with Stone. Stone, being the consummate professional he is, has not talked about his departure publicly, other than reiterating basically what the press release said.
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Here is one of the band promotional pictures used for the American Soldier record cycle:
(https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/as-band.jpg)
Reception & Touring
The first single from American Soldier was “If I Were King,” a mid-tempo cut that the band shot a video for. If I recall correctly, it was put out around the time of Stone's announcement. Here was Rhino Record's press release on American Soldier:
“THE EYES OF A SOLDIER: Queensr˙che Salutes The Troops With American Soldier
Concept Album Inspired By Veterans’ Stories Examines Consequences Of War From The Soldiers’ Perspective” – https://media.rhino.com/press-release/american-soldier
But it wasn't Stone's departure, the new video, or the press release on the album that got fans talking about American Soldier initially. It was the cover art of the record that was posted online before the album was released.
Note the final artwork for the album's front and back covers at the beginning of this write-up. Now, look below for the initial cover art released by the band for American Soldier:
(https://anybodylistening.net/images/as-originalcover.jpg)
As you can see, it depicts the American flag on the ground. As most Americans know, the flag laying on the ground is NOT ok (at least to most Americans). It is generally viewed as a sign of disrespect to the nation (and to an extent, those that serve to protect the county). It was brought up on a few online sites, and about three or four days later, the cover art was removed and replaced with the version of the album cover that was printed that we all know.
Hugh Syme did all the art for American Soldier (and a few Queensryche releases). If you click here https://hughsyme.com/#135 and scroll to the right (take your mouse cursor and basically swipe left on the images) you'll see a smattering of stuff done for Queensryche. The site is a little difficult to navigate, but in the Queensryche stuff, you'll find the original cover of American Soldier and some of the art pieces connected to it. Here are a couple of them:
(https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/as-30kft.jpg) (https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/as-homeagain.jpg)
Editor's note: I also recall a call-in line being established (the timeframe escapes me) where soldiers, or family members of soldiers could call in, potentially be recorded, and it would be eventually used as a promotional tool for American Soldier. I can't find anything on it now. But it was a gimmick at the time that got a little bit of traction.
American Soldier was released on Mar. 31, 2009. While anticipation was high among the hardcore fan base, a lot of time (three years) had passed between Operation: Mindcrime II and its follow-up, and that was reflected in American Soldier's initial showing. It debuted at #25 on the Billboard chart, which by most standards is a great first week. But it quickly dropped off the chart in the two weeks that followed. By way of comparison, Operation: Mindcrime II debuted at #14 in 2006, and had some staying power over the next six weeks.
Going back to the theme of American Soldier, while it was a bold and patriotic move on the surface, many fans who were either military members or family of military members noticed some glaring omissions from the record. Most notably, while each song reflected a certain emotional perspective, the situations selected by Tate to write lyrics on were generally all negative. There weren't any songs that illustrated feelings of pride in serving the country, the lifelong bonds forged by those who served together, or any positive references.
American Soldier was marketed by Tate as him telling the stories of soldiers, but the story is unfortunately, incomplete and not completely representative of a soldier's life, even in wartime. Add to that the original album cover with the American flag on the ground, and it begged the question – was American Soldier a tribute to soldiers, or was it purposefully trying to shame the government? It could be both, or it could be neither. To-date, at least to my recollection, no one has really sat down and discussed that with Tate, and the singer has generally stuck with the initial marketing talking points regarding the album.
On a more positive note, however, from a song perspective, there were quite a few tracks on American Soldier that were popular with fans. Of note is “At 30,000 Ft.,” which gives the perspective of a bomber pilot being isolated and laying waste to the target area. “A Dead Man's Words” was also spotlighted for its depiction of a wounded soldier hoping to be rescued on the battlefield. “Home Again,” a ballad between father-and-daughter, was also quite endearing to people. The track provided perspective from both a soldier away from home, and his young child waiting for his return. Tate and his daughter Emily sang the song together on the album, and a handful of times live. Tate's father's voice was featured in the opening of “The Voice,” which closes the album.
Also notable, unfortunately, was the quality of vocals on the album. Tate's voice sounded much like it was on Take Cover – nasally and strained. In addition, those with an ear for it suggested that Gray may have auto-tuned some of Tate's vocals. To be fair, however, there are spots Tate does shine on American Soldier. So, it's really a crap shoot. In retrospect, it's probably safe to say that quality control on the vocals was lacking.
That said, American Soldier has a great pace through the first nine songs on the album. It ebbs and flows nicely, and the songs are very well written and performed, with a lot going on in the background. Check out the drum work by Rockenfield during Wilton's guitar solo in “The Killer.” The military cadence really helps boost the vibe of the tune. American Soldier loses steam with tracks 10, 11, and 12, as it gets ballad heavy, and the closer, “The Voice,” nods a bit too strongly to Led Zeppelin. The record is generally regarded by most fans as a solid offering, but it often flies under-the-radar with mainstream progressive hard rock and metal listeners.
Editor's note: I found the original review I wrote of American Soldier more than eight years ago. It still stands up as accurate for me:
https://breakdownroom.net/queensryche-as.html.
The singles from American Soldier were “If I Were King” (a song about a soldier that survived and his guilt that a friend did not), “Home Again” and “Man Down!”
(https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/as-iiwk-single.jpg) (https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/as-mandown-single.jpg)
The tour for American Soldier borrowed the“suites” style used for the Live Evolution tour in 2001. Queensryche performed three “suites” of songs, each of which highlighted tracks from Rage for Order, Empire, and American Soldier, respectively. The band would alternate which songs would appear in the suites, enabling fans going to multiple shows to really get their money's worth.
This was a welcome change. For years, fans crucified Queensryche for playing a static setlist. Well, the band dabbled with changing things up a bit on the headline tour for Tribe in 2003, and really embraced it fully (albeit it temporarily) in 2009 with American Soldier. Rarities such as “Chemical Youth,” “London,” “Resistance,” “I Dream in Infrared,” and “One and Only” were played to the delight of hardcore fans.
Editor's notes: If you can excuse jumpy footage, check out a bunch of songs I recorded from the April 19, 2009, show in Chico, Calif., at the Senator Theatre. This was shot with an old digital camera.
Queensryche – April 19, 2009 – Chico, Calif. (live): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZuonKGERyw&list=PLJI-MjWF9aD8WPgnvkHta-YrhL7BYYiPR
In addition, I wrote a review of the gig for a local paper in the area before moving it to my website (I can't find it on the paper's website any longer). I had to leave a few minutes before the end of the main set to get to my laptop and file the review before I made the long drive home, and as it turns out, I missed them performing my favorite song from the band, “Anybody Listening?” as the closer to the main set, and the two-song encore of “Empire” and “Take Hold of the Flame.” I still regret that to this day. Check out the review here:
“Queensryche Rocks the Senator in Chico” - https://breakdownroom.net/queensryche-4-19-09.html
Some new blood was also on the stage for Queensryche. The guitarist playing stage right in those videos referenced above is Parker Lundgren. This was his debut tour with Queensryche. The selection of Parker was cruicified by many fans (myself among them) due to Parker being Tate's son-in-law at the time of his hiring. In fact, he had guitar picks made up saying “Dude, I am totally nailing Geoff Tate's daughter...”
(https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/as-nailing.jpg)
This was during the time that Queensryche was really starting to become the Tate Family business, and many of the Tate family were employed by the band. Jason Ames (Susan Tate's ex-husband), who played keyboards, rhythm guitar, and sang background and some lead vocals was also on tour with Queensryche. Tate's family ran the fan club, and also did merchandise sales (along with Scott Rockenfield's then-wife, Mystii.
However, as time has shown, Parker's selection to follow Mike Stone in filling Chris DeGarmo's shoes was not just because he was a part of the Tate family – he's an outstanding guitar player, and took a lot of time to learn DeGarmo's work and pay homage to it in his playing. He doesn't play Chris' lead parts note for note, but he's much more in the ballpark than either Gray or Stone. Wilton, however, in what should have probably happened in 1999, finally took the opportunity on this tour to take many of DeGarmo's single guitar leads (such as “Jet City Woman”). As a result, Lundgren only solos with Wilton on the harmonized pieces, and in the trade-offs. As of this writing in September 2017, Wilton still plays DeGarmo's single guitar solos.
Editor's note: Lundgren's marriage to Tate's daughter Miranda did not last long, and as most know, Lundgren is still with Queensryche today.
The tour also featured a variety of t-shirt designs. Here are a few of the notable ones:
(https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/as-shirt-1.jpg) (https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/as-shirt-2.jpg) (https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/as-shirt-3.jpg) (https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/as-shirt-4.jpg)
Queensryche played for the troops at various dates in 2009, including at Fort Benning, Georgia, and on the flight deck of the USS Mount Whitney. It wasn't until 2010 that Queensryche made it to the Middle East, however. Once there, they played five dates for the troops at various military installations. Once they returned, the band was pretty shook up by the experience, recalling how bombs were going off in the distance and various emergency situations popped up.
Check out here for some pictures of the shows – https://www.dvidshub.net/tags/image/queensryche. (Aside from these shows, the next entry will cover Queensryche's activities in 2010 and 2011.)
The tour for American Soldier began in April 2009 (not counting the shows for the troops in 2010) and ran through the end of the year. In a strange twist, however, Queensryche paired up with Lita Ford and ex-Nitro singer Jim Gillette (then Lita's husband) in the fall of 2009 for a final run of dates to support American Soldier. Lita and Jim didn't open for Queensryche, however. Instead, in what was a bizarre move, they played following the second suite of songs (which was typically the American Soldier cuts).
Queensryche played as Lita's backing band for this portion of the show, as she and Jim (along with Queensryche) performed a trio of Lita's songs, most often two new ones (“Crave,” “Patriotic S.O.B.”) and “Close My Eyes Forever,” where Lita would duet with Tate. Once it was over, Queensryche resumed its set. Lita was supporting her first album in 15 years, Wicked Wonderland. That record featured many songs with strong sexual overtones. And while this is hard to believe, that may have had an influence on what Geoff Tate had planned next for Queensryche...
Samsara's top-tracks from American Soldier: At 30,000 Ft., A Dead Man's Words, The Killer, Man Down!
Next up: The Queensryche Cabaret and Dedicated to Chaos (2010-2011)
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Another excellent read.
I should try and go back to this album, all I remember is the chorus to Man Down!, which I always liked since the beginning.
I find the pick more disrespectful than the flag down, honestly :lol but I understand there's a certain protocol to the use of flags and that a flag lying on the ground isn't a nice sight. It's a pity the album lyrics got mixed reviews, the idea behind the album concept was quite good.
The tour for this album marked the second and so far final time I have seen Queensryche live. I figure out that if there's ever gonna be a third time, it's gonna be at a festival where I already am for other bands - and a festival was where I saw them, here's the setlist:
Neue Regel
The Whisper
Screaming in Digital
Walk in the Shadows
The Killer
Man Down!
A Dead Man's Words
Best I Can
The Thin Line
Jet City Woman
Empire
Couple of funny things I remember: rain starting to appear, and Geoff Tate brushing it off as "Oh, come on, what's a little rain... where we are it always rain", with me humorously replying "Of course you're used to it, that doesn't mean it should rain in June!!!", and the intro tape blocking on Best I Can, prompting the keyboard player to shout "Eh che cazzo!!!", which is "What the f-" in italian ;D
All in all a nice show, not that I remember much more from it. Dream Theater were headliners at that festival, but the next day if I remember correctly.
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The only real entertainment American Soldier has ever provided me was hunting down where I'd heard the riff to Man Down! before (for the record, The Almighty - The Unreal Thing... it's not exact but it's pretty close).
I never bought the record, the promo video for If I Were King gave me a good reason to be very wary, I've only ever listened to it on Spotify and my overriding impression was that of dull plodders badly sung. I can't even be bothered giving it another listen now - every year or two I go through a phase of binge listening to QR for a week or two and each time since it was released I've given American Soldier another go during that phase and it's never gotten any more appealing.
Nice idea. Bland execution.
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For me personally, American Soldier was the highlight of the so-called "Tateryche" period of Queensryche. To my ears, Slater had really captured the essence of the classic Queensryche sound. With the actual band recording it, and Wilton writing solos, I found myself really in love with most of the album and being captivated by the theme.
It bothered me a great deal that the band didn't write it. I wasn't (and I'm still not) shy about expressing that. Queensryche, prior to Operation: Mindcrime II, always wrote its own material. But at the end of the day, good songs are good songs, and I think American Soldier is an underrated album, flaws and all.
The four songs I listed as my "top tracks" from the record – At 30k Ft., A Dead Man's Words, The Killer, and Man Down are all, for me, exactly the sort of songs I wanted to hear from Queensryche at this point in time. Epic, with melody, great guitar solos, heavy riffs, etc. For me, I'd put those tracks up there as some of the best from Queensryche, all-time. Yes, seriously. No, not in the top-10, but a couple in the top-20, for sure. It's all subjective, of course. But for me, Slater, Tate, and the band nailed it with those four tunes. And, generally, the rest of the tracks from 1-9 were good.
Re: "Unafraid"
"Unafraid," with that huge chorus, could have been one of the best songs the band ever recorded...had Tate actually wrote and recorded lyrics for the verses. I think the decision not to convert the original/demo version from Slater and Mitch Doran into a song with lyrics on American Soldier was one of the dumbest things Queensryche has ever done in its career. That chorus is just plain powerful. It's huge, beautifully sung, and full of emotion. And the song loses all the punch without lyrics. I get the arty vibe Tate was looking for. But this wasn't the song to do it with, IMO. You can barely hear the soldier commentary, because it drops down in volume. And even if you could hear it clearly, it's not the same for me as hearing a lead vocal sing. Still a good song, with one of my favorite Wilton solos, but man...all I can think about when I hear it is...how incredible that tune could have been. That would have been #1 for me on the record, and made five outstanding tracks (again, for me personally) from it.
Other thoughts...
One of my beefs with American Soldier, just like with Operation: Mindcrime II, is that it fizzles at the end. Mindcrime II sort of dies after Murderer. American Soldier dies after Man Down. I get the sentiment behind Remember Me and Home Again. And I think those are very important elements of a soldier's life to portray. But they come off to me as pure cheese, and not at all heart-string tugging. I mean, I'm a dad of a little girl myself – I can only imagine how it feels to be a soldier and leaving her. But the way Tate and his daughter sang Home Again was just...what they were trying to accomplish didn't do it for me.
The Voice – way too much Kashmir for me. I think that track is OK. A lot of people love it (including Slater). But it doesn't do much for me. I think the lyrics and the story of that song is good, but it deserved the classic Queensryche epic ending tune treatment – and we didn't get it. So, it was a bit of a let down.
Generally, I let the record play through Man Down, and turn it off. I also agree wholeheartedly with the criticisms regarding the album lacking the complete soldier perspective and the original disrespectful portrayal with the American flag. But I try not to let that bother me when listening to the album. I enjoy American Soldier quite a bit and feel it is vastly underappreciated. I love the theme, I love the artwork (the gripe about the flag aside), and I love how descriptive a lot of the lyrics are. It paints a very clear and riveting picture in my mind that captures and holds my attention. I feel really fortunate (aside from missing Anybody Listening – grrrr) to have seen the tour. I'm glad I went.
And I really do encourage any of you that checked out of Queensryche well before this, at least give the four songs I recommended above a shot, just on their own merits. I think you'll come away at least feeling like they stand up well with some of the band's better material.
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And the song loses all the punch without lyrics. I get the arty vibe Tate was looking for. But this wasn't the song to do it with, IMO. You can barely hear the soldier commentary, because it drops down in volume. And even if you could hear it clearly, it's not the same for me as hearing a lead vocal sing.
I had that same exact thought last week when I listened to American Solider again - probably the first time I have listened to the album in at least 5 years, if not longer. You can tell that the interviews were recorded with something handheld, as opposed to having them recorded professionally for a nice, clean sound. And I'd definitely prefer to hear a lead vocal.
At the time, I really loved the record. I was glad to see something inspired come from them, and musically, it's a really cool record. But after time, the soldier interviews seemed too gimmicky and it makes the album's emotional impact way too heavy. I don't want to listen to soldiers talk about their experiences when I listen to music - I put on music for escapism, to rock out and have some fun. It's also the first time that I've ever felt that Geoff's vocals were laid on top of the song, as opposed to flowing through the song. It just doesn't sound like they are mixed that well.
The album completely peters out after Man Down for me as well. I think by then, I'm just tired of listening to it. Still some fantastic songs though, and a great idea, though I agree that the execution could have been a lot better, and there could have been some broader opinions of military service featured on the album.
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I absolutely love "At 30,000 Feet". Probably the last best song of the Tate era. Man Down, Hundred Mile Stare, Middle of Hell and The Voice were all good tracks as well. Dead Mans Words starts off interesting then turns into an Alice In Chains song.
I get what they were trying to do with "Home Again", but its unlistenable due to Tate's daughters vocals.
When I saw the video for "If I Were King" and wondered what high school A/V club won the chance to shoot it.
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Sorry for the possibily dumb question - how the credits back in this era were explicity indicated in the booklet? I mean, imagine how this forum would implode if one would open the booklet of DT14 and read a name not of the band member in the credits, was Slater's name all over the credits in these albums or it was not stated?
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Sorry for the possibily dumb question - how the credits back in this era were explicity indicated in the booklet? I mean, imagine how this forum would implode if one would open the booklet of DT14 and read a name not of the band member in the credits, was Slater's name all over the credits in these albums or it was not stated?
I don't have the booklet in front of me, so I don't remember off-hand. However, I DO remember that the band gave the credits online when they released the track names. That was a big thing, because they sort of avoided that on Mindcrime II, trying to mask it a bit that the band wasn't involved much. So, on American Soldier, I do remember a lot of "hey, they came clean" when they posted the credits of who wrote what.
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This album had alot of potential for me, but in the end didn't really click. Dead Mans Words and 30,000 feet are excellent songs, but overall, Geoff's vocal performance and the ballad heavy ending really soured me on this album.
Just listening to the demo of Unafraid and I will say that the demo is 10 times better than what made the album. Wow, that really is a lost opportunity for a outstanding tune.
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Another great write up and as I predicted it's far better than the album.
It sounds like QR, but only rubbish, post PL QR. Same pace, heavy eastern sounding riffs that Tate still pedals today, samey ballads.
I listened again a couple of nights ago and my opinion hasn't changed. It's not a complete write off but nothing here worth bothering with.
And the duet with his daughter would have been better with a better child singer.
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Pretty much agree with Lowdz here. As much as I didn't want to because it was a chore, I gave it another quick skim through the other night as well, didn't even make it through most songs. Right from the start the rap like vocals and chant shouts in the first track are a turn off for me. The songs are plodding , the vocals strained and way too much spoken word singing and the commentary throughout is annoying and takes away from the songs. it is just a collection of shoddy vocals, boring songs with some nice guitar work here and there, but that doesn't rescue the songs as a whole and it is poorly mixed and put together and the record as a whole does absolutely nothing for me. The best song on the record IMO is Home Again, and that sure as hell ain't saying much for the material on this album. Take Cover and this album are nothing but collectors of dust in my collection, I was smart enough to not even purchase Dedicated to Chaos (and still haven't). The tour was cool however, I saw two shows on the tour.
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I thought American Sodier was a bold move, at the time and there was a lot to like on it. However, I didn't give much thought about the artwork at the time your writeup clears up a lot about it. I actually did my turn in the military and we had to raise and lower the flag during the watches. You DO NOT let your country's flag TOUCH THE GROUND. We were reminded sternly again and again and there would be a severe talking to if you let it slip.
As I said, musically I again liked a lot of songs (again...) from the first half of the album. The songs sounded great and I loved the themes. But again it petered out way too fast and I lost interest alltogether. Didn't know about the Lita Ford support spot abroad, interesting read. Yeah, I'm affraid it's all REALLY downhill from here, so I'll shut up now. Thumbs up again to the writer. :tup
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I usually allow myself several dates before I post my thoughts on an album I'm new to, but after my third listen of the album, I have some firm thoughts about it. There's still plenty of tracks that need to reveal themselves to me, but some already hooked me.
I was IMMEDIATELY struck by Unafraid. I see that people are divided on it, but I think what makes the song work is exactly the fact that only the chorus features singing. Sure, you can't hear the words on the verses very well, but I thought they were going for a chaotic, messy collage of samples. And once the chorus emerges from the heavy riffs and samples, it's only powerful because it's so strikingly different from the verses given it's wonderful vocal harmonies and chord progressions. It works. Brilliantly.
Regarding the lyrical content, I'm on the fence with it. I like the concept and some the ideas were rather well executed. The one that wasn't is Home again. Dear God, that one is hard to listen to. Sorry for being harsh on the female vocalist, I can imagine she tried hard.
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Despite being a hardcore QR fan at the time of its release, I all but ignored American Soldier. Just from looking at the cover, I just was like "what is this..."
I am a social dissident. Fed up with politics, corruption and all the bullshit of human nature, which is why I loved Mindcrime. Songs like revolution calling, Anarchy X and operation mindcrime absolutely got my blood pumping. So QR always appealed to me as someone who has always been anti-authority, So when I see my favorite band (which was the embodiment of that) release an album called american solidier with a solidier on the cover, I personally just didn't get it and it seemed so bizarre. It was a hard swing from just releasing mindcrime II to now release an "army" themed album. I may have misunderstood what they were going for, but it still turned me off.
So basically, I just ignored it. Actually listening to it in anticipation of this thread, its not bad. It has some decent parts and overall is pretty much a solid album. It most certainly is Tate-ryche though, which at this point I was still willing to tolerate, but still, another album where the actual band didn't write anything? fuck that.
I was willing to put up with it during Mindcrime II since I am obsessed with Mindcrime One and was willing to look the other way to have a little more, but if this was going to be norm going forward, then no thanks.
And sadly it only gets worse before it gets better...
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A question for Bosk, or any of you other folks that have served in our military. From your personal experiences, do you think that this album comes close to what you went through when you served? I don't intend to pry because I fully understand that some of these themes can be an extremely personal thing, but if the album is an authentic thing in your view then it might be the thing that would push me towards giving it a chance.
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I found American Soldier a little bit better than OM II when it was released but then that isn't saying much. But as time passed the record didn't hold up. Too many of the songs are just plodding along and Tate doesn't really give a shit for his vocal performances. Sad to see such a voice going down, but even sadder to see that he didn't really care. If your range is gone you can at least put your heart and soul in your performances and not some lackluster singing. >:(
That duet with his daughter is so cheesy it is atrocious. I get that he's proud to sing a song with his daughter, but I know, as I have two daughters myself, that no-one outside of close family members wants to hear you perform with your kids.
I didn't get the overall theme: Are you critical of the military? Are you praising it? Are you feeling for the soldiers? Is the use and abuse of the military and its powers by governments a thing on this record? What are you trying to achieve? What are you trying to tell us? ???
So overall I once again was let down from my expectations and this time I really put my QR love on hold, I didn't care about them and their activities till Todd came along.
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I just gave OM:II a listen yesterday. I started it earlier but never finished, it's terrible. Production, solos are uninspired and weak, and the back and forth vocals in "The Chase" are hilarious in a bad kind of way.
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I realized I started following for Mindcrime, and didn't properly read the earlier entries. I went back and re-read them, just to have the complete experience :tup
It's bittersweet reading about supposedly Geoff had a bad reputation for his attitude, but the band realized he was simply to good to miss and wanted to stick with him - just as he wanted to make it with his other band, but joined when they got a record deal. A little bit like Adrian Smith wanting to make it on his own, but then realizing his path was with Maiden.
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A question for Bosk, or any of you other folks that have served in our military. From your personal experiences, do you think that this album comes close to what you went through when you served? I don't intend to pry because I fully understand that some of these themes can be an extremely personal thing, but if the album is an authentic thing in your view then it might be the thing that would push me towards giving it a chance.
That's a great question. I do think it is an accurate reflection of a lot of the things that our military goes through. I think Geoff did great job of getting information directly from people who served, and in many cases, did a great job of translating their experiences and their stories into song lyrics that drive those personal struggles home.
For example, Sliver does a pretty good job of conveying what happens when a recruit goes through basic training and has his civilian life essentially stripped away so that he can be built into a soldier. It is from an army perspective, so doesn't capture the specifics of how that works in, say, the Marine Corps. But in terms of the basics and the main idea of the song, it works well. At 30,000 Feet is one I particularly identify with. As someone in an artillery battery during the Gulf War, I was similarly in a situation where I was detached from the fighting on the front lines. Although I wasn't in a plane, my unit was responsible for raining down destruction on targets far away that we couldn't see and wouldn't have known existed but for those on the front line calling back coordinates to us. And there are plenty of other songs as well that capture other relevant struggles and emotions, such as feeling detached from society upon returning from an armed conflict, the difficulty of trying to have a normal family life in the middle of having an abnormal work life in the military, and so on. So, from that perspective, I think Tate did an outstanding job. He took those emotions and those struggles and put words to them in a way that makes them real, and put music to them that is fitting of those emotions and struggles.
MY major problem with the album is that it is biased, and in a very insidious way. In many ways, Tate didn't get it. And it isn't just that the narrative is one-sided. It is that Tate was looking for a certain angle and heard what he wanted to hear that fit that angle, and then used the soldiers' own words to fit his narrative. In doing so, I think he missed some important stuff a lot of them were saying (or likely would have said if he had asked the right questions).
Case in point, I want to tell a story I alluded to in my prior post about when I met some of the band members after the Portland show on the Take Cover tour. This was actually the first and only time I have met and spoken to Geoff Tate. One of the things I wanted to tell him personally was about how much the song Anybody Listening meant to me personally. I loved that song from the first time I heard it. The music itself is outstanding and befitting of "favorite song" status. But it is really the lyrics that grabbed me the hardest. To me, lines like "think for yourself and feel the walls become sand beneath your feet" were what I most appreciated about this band. They took a stand on issues, called out things they felt were wrong, dissected, criticized...but at the end of the day, while they made their (or, at least, Tate's) viewpoint fairly apparent, I always felt like the band was just trying to get you to think about and discuss the issues and "think for yourself," no matter which side of a given issue you might eventually fall on. And there were other things in the lyrics that grabbed me as well. There were the nautical themes. There was the lonely melancholy. For example, I really dug the line, "and if I don't return to sing the song, maybe just as well; I've seen the news, and there's not much I can do...alone." That line in particular hit me pretty hard when I was sitting up late one night in the middle of the desert during the gulf war listening to Empire on my Walkman. So much so that I began signing my letters home with that line. To me, it was a statement of calm resignation--a recognition that I wasn't in control of my destiny, and that was okay. And getting to a place where I could feel that that was "okay" was a mindset that actually produced hope and optimism about what I was doing and who I was.
When I met Geoff, I explained all of this to him. And...he completely missed the point. He interjected a few times and said things along the lines of, "Wow, so you felt like you were just a tool of the corrupt government machine that was using you guys over there to further its own agenda. I'm glad our song could get you through something so awful." And I was like, "Well, NO. That's not what I'm saying at all," and I would again try to explain. But it was one of the oddest conversations I've had. He clearly had a preconceived notion about what he thought the narrative was that he didn't get what I was trying to tell him. And it was like he couldn't get what I was trying to tell him.
I didn't know at the time, but that conversation was during the timeframe that they were working on American Soldier. After having the album for awhile, I remembered back to this conversation, and it all clicked. Tate accurately captured a lot of relevant feelings and struggles, but he ultimately missed the point that our military personnel could have shared with him. And as that translated to the album, if you listen carefully, there definitely is a very anti-military and anti-government slant to it all. And that's fine, if that's what he wanted to do. But the problem is, it's not authentic. I feel that he used those soldiers' words to paint a picture that isn't true to what they would tell you if they were allowed to just freely speak their minds about those things. Yes, a lot of what he presents is accurate and is very poignant in the way it is presented, and that's a good thing. But the slant and spin he puts on it all is not.
So, this is the major problem I have with this album. Tate got so much right. But he also got so much wrong simply by virtue of the fact that he had preconceived notions about what he wanted to say and then hammered all the dialog into that mold to fit his own theme rather than listening to what these people really had to say. In other words, he got the words right, and got the feelings right, but missed the bigger picture.
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Since I'm focusing on the negative right now, I have two other unrelated problems with this album:
1. The vocals. This is THE glaring flaw in the album. Geoff Tate was, by far, the weakest link. He is strained and thin, and it ruins some otherwise REALLY good songs. This was SO disappointing to me. In what universe should Geoff Tate's singing be the weak link on a Queensryche album? But that is, unfortunately, the universe we are living in now.
2. The emotional impact of the album suffers due to the album sequencing. Overall, I really like the songs. All of them. And I think The Voice is a great closer, even if it isn't quite the big epic that a lot of their closers up to this point had been (forget Mindcrime II for a minute). Two ballads leading up to The Voice really killed the album's momentum and made it end on a whimper, and that is unfortunate.
Related to that, a sort of 2.b., Geoff should not have had Emily Tate sing Home Again. I don't mean to criticize her. But she wasn't the best choice for that song. At first, I liked the fact that Tate sang it with his daughter. Knowing that fact should have given the song an extra emotional kick. And initially, it did. Unfortunately, that quickly wore off because the performance just doesn't convey that emotion like it should. Tate's performance is off key and flat, which is a problem in and of itself. But Emily's doesn't really bring any emotion to the table like it should either. Ultimately, I think it was a great decision to have a child sing the child's part in that song. But they needed a different child--one that was either an experienced singer that could bring the emotional impact the song called for, or so young that the cuteness factor alone would pull at your heart strings so hard that it wouldn't matter. This song just missed the mark.
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So, those are the problems I have with the album. That said, there is a lot to like. And overall, I do like the album quite a bit. I already started a post where I hit most of the positives. I will finish that and post it a bit later.
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On to the positives...
Despite its flaws, I like this album. I really do. And the things I discussed above notwithstanding, there are things I love about the album that make it the best post-DeGarmo Tate album.
I bought the album on release day, which was a fairly common occurrence for bands I like. What as a bit unusual is that I bought two copies so I could keep a spare unopened copy. I did so because the album's theme really resonated with me and the snippets I had heard were excellent.
The theme was and continues to be a draw for me. Like a lot of musicians, Tate tends to be at his best when he has a specific vision and is forced to focus on that vision. On this album, he and Slater managed to capture a lot of themes, ideas, and emotions that really resonate.
The songwriting itself is mostly really good. I had given Slater props on Mindcrime II for capturing a lot of that classic Queensryche sound. I don't know whether to attribute the experience he gained in working on that album, the fact that the band was more involved with the recording on this one (but not the writing, obviously), or both, but he really knocked it out of the park on this album. You may not be able to say this album sounds like Mindcrime, or sounds like Empire, or sounds like [album X]. But it sounds like Queensryche.
This is just a collection of good, well-written, well-performed songs. Yes, there are some choices that are a bit different and may not have worked as well as they could have in the execution. For example, Samsara highlighted Middle of Hell, with its unconventional spoken-word verses and its hypnotic atmosphere. Some liked the unconventional approach. Some felt that it killed the song to not be heavier and not have a more traditional verse. Personally, I have mixed feelings about it. I love the atmosphere of the song. I think it might have benefitted from a more traditional verse structure. But I can't fault the creative vision behind it, and I really like the result they produced.
There are lots of other strong moments on the album as well. A Dead Man's Words is probably my favorite, even if it may be a bit derivative of the band's prior work (there is a reason I affectionately refer to it as Open II; listen to the song and sing the verses to Open over the songs verse--go ahead and try it).
Ultimately, I just like what was written and how the songs are performed on the album, and that's the main thing.
Looking back, I wish I didn't miss the tour. The scheduling and location here didn't work out for me, unfortunately. But the worst thing was, when my wife and I went to New Orleans, we learned that they played the House of Blues a couple of blocks from our hotel. Unfortunately, we didn't learn that information until the day AFTER the show. :(
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Bosk, thank you very much for the great response to my question. I now intend to dive into this album, and hearing from someone who has lived that life will help me appreciate the record that much more.
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I remember being so excited when I picked this album up at Best Buy, but frustrated on the ride home because so many songs had the potential to be great but were just barely missing the mark. I kept wishing that Unafraid, with that truly glorious chorus, had actual verses rather than spoken word clips clumsily placed over a lame nu-metal riff, that Remember Me had a stronger chorus, that Home Again had slightly better vocals, that Sliver didn't contain those annoying "What's up?!" chants, etc. But just like the majority of albums, it seemed to get better each time I heard it.
Dead Man's Words is the clear standout in my opinion--it has such a dark, brooding quality reminiscent of the song Promised Land, and it was also quite a treat to hear the saxophone again! Listening to it on headphones makes it even more epic because you notice more of the vocal layers and haunting battlefield sound effects. Hundred Mile Stare is really catchy and I think it contains Tate's best performance on the album. At 30,000 Feet is another outstanding tune, made extra powerful with lyrics like "Their tortured painful cries will never fall upon my ears and never stain my elder years." After so many mid-tempo songs in a row, Man Down really hits the spot, and provides the only moments that sound remotely metal. And even though it's a little corny, I think Home Again is really beautiful and poignant, and I wish it could have been the closing track.
The only song that still does nothing for me is The Voice. It's absolutely mystifying to me because I've heard it at least 15 times, including once this afternoon, and I still can't remember a single thing about it. I practically have the entire Queensryche catalog memorized, but for some reason this song goes in and out of my mind like vapor every single time, so I have no choice but to think of it as the most boring Queensryche song ever.
I didn't like American Soldier nearly as much as Operation Mindcrime II, but it had a really compelling, honorable concept and enough good songs to make me proud to be a loyal Queensryche fan. However, that feeling of pride would have vanished instantly had I done more research to discover that the band members didn't even write the fucking music.
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This was a solid album overall. Better than O:M2 and Q2K, but not better than Tribe and Hear in the now frontier. Unafraid is still one of my favorites, and Man down! and A Dead man's words turned out to be highlights as well. The album is consistently listenable and enjoyable, aside from Middle of hell and If I were king - the album would have been much better had those songs been left off.
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Those of you that listened to the record again (or for the first time)...do you think you'll put it on any sort of "rotation" of your regular listening?
By that I mean, for me, I usually listen to new records quite often. This year, I tend to rotate records released this year. But then I have probably a stable of 25, 30 albums I usually cycle through fairly regularly (meaning -- a few times per year). Do you see American Soldier approaching that level?
Just curious. American Soldier is a rotation album for me. I find myself going back to it a few times per year, despite the flaws discussed earlier. I just plain like it.
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Those of you that listened to the record again (or for the first time)...do you think you'll put it on any sort of "rotation" of your regular listening?
By that I mean, for me, I usually listen to new records quite often. This year, I tend to rotate records released this year. But then I have probably a stable of 25, 30 albums I usually cycle through fairly regularly (meaning -- a few times per year). Do you see American Soldier approaching that level?
Just curious. American Soldier is a rotation album for me. I find myself going back to it a few times per year, despite the flaws discussed earlier. I just plain like it.
Not really, only in that I don't listen to Queensryche very often anymore. This thread has been fun to give myself a reason to listen to these albums and see if my opinions of them are still the same, or revisit why I loved them so much 15-20 years ago.
But I generally listen to so many other bands in my regular rotation and only go for Queensryche if something prompts me to (reading some news about the band or hearing a song somewhere like on a free trial of XM radio.
That being said, I may end up listening to some of the latter-era albums more often now since I tend to grow tired of their classic albums that I usually gravitate to.
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Those of you that listened to the record again (or for the first time)...do you think you'll put it on any sort of "rotation" of your regular listening?
By that I mean, for me, I usually listen to new records quite often. This year, I tend to rotate records released this year. But then I have probably a stable of 25, 30 albums I usually cycle through fairly regularly (meaning -- a few times per year). Do you see American Soldier approaching that level?
Just curious. American Soldier is a rotation album for me. I find myself going back to it a few times per year, despite the flaws discussed earlier. I just plain like it.
Actually yes, I think I will go into my QR rotation. So i was very happy to be reminded of it from this thread. And the write up was awesome of course. Now I have a better understanding of it.
I have not problem visiting it from time to time
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American Soldier is a rotation album for me. I find myself going back to it a few times per year, despite the flaws discussed earlier. I just plain like it.
Yeah, same here. It isn't one I revisit often. But like you, a few times a year is about right.
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Those of you that listened to the record again (or for the first time)...do you think you'll put it on any sort of "rotation" of your regular listening?
By that I mean, for me, I usually listen to new records quite often. This year, I tend to rotate records released this year. But then I have probably a stable of 25, 30 albums I usually cycle through fairly regularly (meaning -- a few times per year). Do you see American Soldier approaching that level?
Just curious. American Soldier is a rotation album for me. I find myself going back to it a few times per year, despite the flaws discussed earlier. I just plain like it.
I'm completely new to QR and I've been following this thread closely (it's one of my favorite threads on DTF) but to my ears I've never heard a band get so terrible as QR. American Solider is really awful, there is some cool riffage but that's about it.
I've been listening to a lot of TW through Empire (except for O:M which I don't care for but I can appreciate the music) and then it goes to shit, but with every passing album it seems to just get worse and worse.
I'm sorry if I'm coming off harsh here.
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Those of you that listened to the record again (or for the first time)...do you think you'll put it on any sort of "rotation" of your regular listening?
By that I mean, for me, I usually listen to new records quite often. This year, I tend to rotate records released this year. But then I have probably a stable of 25, 30 albums I usually cycle through fairly regularly (meaning -- a few times per year). Do you see American Soldier approaching that level?
Just curious. American Soldier is a rotation album for me. I find myself going back to it a few times per year, despite the flaws discussed earlier. I just plain like it.
I'm completely new to QR and I've been following this thread closely (it's one of my favorite threads on DTF) but to my ears I've never heard a band get so terrible as QR. American Solider is really awful, there is some cool riffage but that's about it.
I've been listening to a lot of TW through Empire (except for O:M which I don't care for but I can appreciate the music) and then it goes to shit, but with every passing album it seems to just get worse and worse.
I'm sorry if I'm coming off harsh here.
I'm a Queensryche diehard and they are my favorite band and I can't fault you at all for your stated observation. These last recordings with Geoff Tate fronting the band are abysmal by comparison to what this band accomplished on the first six albums. Steady decline for sure, which is why Geoff's ouster and Todd La Torre joining and a complete rebirth of the band was welcomed and necessary.
But you ain't seen nothin yet my friend, do yourself a favor and read the write up for the next record, but if you thought negatively about American Soldier, dear God, don't even bother listening to Dedicated to Chaos.
Back on topic, nah. American Soldier doesn't hold enough interest to revisit. There is so much better music out there and several other albums from this band to enjoy. This one certainly wouldn't be one of them unfortunately.
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I listen to QR quite regularly, but only from EP to Promised Land and the two Todd fronted ones. Sometimes I throw Q2K in. Every couple of years or so I get the urge to listen to the whole discography from start to finish and only then the Tateryche records get a listen for the sake of completeness.
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We're done now aren't we. We can just jump ahead to the s/t... nothing to see here...
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Idk. The way Sam does the writeups, it might be interesting to hear his take on the train wreck behind the scenes
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Well, I'm here just for the trainwreck :corn I didn't even bother to listen to Dedicated to Chaos but I'm looking forward to read the entry about it.
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Idk. The way Sam does the writeups, it might be interesting to hear his take on the train wreck behind the scenes
Yeah, the Cabernet writeup could be good 😀
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Idk. The way Sam does the writeups, it might be interesting to hear his take on the train wreck behind the scenes
Yeah, the Cabernet writeup could be good 😀
There's attractive if rather one-dimensional fruit in the opening. The middle has good texture, and some of the opening fruit loops back at the finish.
Smooth, easy, and easy to find, with a very modest price tag. The body is light and boasts lots of cherry and strawberry dipped in a touch of mocha on the finish. Tastes great with red-sauce pasta dishes, lasagna or give it a go with your favorite calzone combination.
;)
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Idk. The way Sam does the writeups, it might be interesting to hear his take on the train wreck behind the scenes
Yeah, the Cabernet writeup could be good 😀
There's attractive if rather one-dimensional fruit in the opening. The middle has good texture, and some of the opening fruit loops back at the finish.
Smooth, easy, and easy to find, with a very modest price tag. The body is light and boasts lots of cherry and strawberry dipped in a touch of mocha on the finish. Tastes great with red-sauce pasta dishes, lasagna or give it a go with your favorite calzone combination.
;)
So you've actually tried Insania then?
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Bloody hell. And that was with my new glasses on 😀
But yeah, obviously I meant insania and not the very dodgy cabaret shows 😜
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Off the Cabernet for a minute, and back to AS for a comment........
I tried to listen to a few tracks during this discussion, and it was as if suddenly someone turned on a PBS documentary at 3/4 volume while I'm trying to listen to some music. The interviews ruined what wasn't all that great to average material. The demo for 'Unafraid' was pretty good (thanks for providing that). 'If I Were King' wasn't bad, but then someone turned up the frickin' TV in the other room partway through. 'Home Again' was soooo cheesy and painful to get through visually and audibly.
I think back to the time of its release, that I didn't bother with it at all, unlike the one spin that both OM 2 and 'Live Evolution' received. Also, I went up to Philly with a friend to see DT and Zappa Meets Zappa. I went with another friend to see them in Columbia, MD at the Meriweather Pavilion. with Special Guest Queensryche. At this point in their career, after being so disappointed in everything after PL (but making 'passable' personal version of 'FrontEar' and 'Q2k'), the BS behind 'Tribe' and its tour, the change in image, music, direction,etc....I was done with them. We intentionally arrived late so as not to see the special guests for the evening.
Judging from the vids available on youtube of that show, other than not seeing a damn good Rockenfield performance, we didn't miss much. Well, other than what might have amounted to the biggest WTF? moment in my concert history, had I seen Daddy Tate and daughter sing together.
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Queensryche: Circa 2010-2011
Touring...and touring...and touring...
Before we go forward and explain what Queensryche was doing after American Soldier, it is necessary to go back and understand the state of the music industry. Starting in 2004 or so, the music business, at least when it came to hard rock and metal acts, really began to shift. Bands and their management teams realized that albums wouldn't really sell unless you're a top pop act. So, instead of relying on album sales to generate revenue, most bands hit the road hard, trying to play as many dates and make as much money as possible.
This was a complete reversal from the days of putting out a record every two years and then going on a 100-date tour, and then repeating the cycle. Now, instead of touring to generate more record sales, bands make records to give promoters another angle to book them and keep them on the road. For established and long-term successful acts such as Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, it really didn't affect them – they toured when they wanted to tour, regardless of the changes. But for mid-level and fringe headlining acts, and those on the bubble that had waves of success like Queensryche, touring became the only way to survive.
While this was a positive for many fans who didn't have the ability to see Queensryche when the band only toured a market once an album cycle, the strategy ultimately backfired. Starting about when Susan Tate began managing the group (about 2004), Queensryche continually went back to the same key markets in the U.S. Not just every album cycle, but two, sometimes three times per year. This helped the band pay off debt and enabled the members to make an extremely good living, even better in some ways than the Empire years, and especially after the U.S. economy took a dump in the late 2000s.
Simply put, the band was making money and thriving financially until the end of 2009 on the strength of that “tour until you can't stand up” philosophy. In fact, there were stretches of dates where Queensryche would play six out of seven nights, and 13 out of 14. It was grueling, but lucrative because of the volume of gigs.
As much as Susan Tate's method of management has been questioned and criticized over the years, the one thing everyone – including the band – admitted: her work kept them afloat and their wallets full.
The problem, however, was her strategy was short term planning and couldn't be sustained. Queensryche found that the over-saturation of U.S. markets also eroded the band's (booking agent's) negotiation power with promoters in terms of how much money Queensryche would earn (called guarantees) for each show. As a result, each time the band went to book a new tour, they ended up making less and less money. Queensryche needed a “gimmick” as the years went on to convince promoters that the show would sell well, to enable the band to secure the financial number (the guarantee) per show it was accustomed to.
Well, in 2010, the guarantees per show were starting to bottom out, and Queensryche went all in on a gimmick to try and get things back up...
The Queensryche Cabaret (2010)
(https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/qrcabaret-flyer.jpg)
Queensryche announced that it would bring a cabaret-style show, complete with aerialists, strip tease dancers and various other erotic/exotic acts to the masses in 2010. The performers would strut their stuff while Queensryche played a concert with songs from its catalog tailored to the acts being performed on stage. In a nutshell, as the saying goes, sex sells, and Queensryche was looking to exploit that and find a way to make some money.
The idea was spearheaded by Susan and Geoff Tate. The “acts” consisted of Susan herself (an ex-stripper), and Mysti Rockenfield (another ex-stripper), along with Miranda Tate (the Tates' daughter who was doing some exotic dancing/cabaret stuff at the time) and various other family members and friends. I'll let the photos do most of the descriptive talking regarding the stage “show” Queensryche put on:
(https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/qrcabaret-tate.jpg) (https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/qrcabaret-1.jpg) (https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/qrcabaret-2.jpg) (https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/qrcabaret-3.jpg) (https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/qrcabaret-4.jpg) (https://www.anybodylistening.net/images/qrcabaret-5.jpg)
Not all the members of the band were in favor of this approach. Michael Wilton, in particular, wanted nothing to do with the whole thing. He wore a hood (see photo above) for some of the initial shows to basically, as he described to me and others, “just try and hide and just play the songs.”
To put it bluntly, the band was CRUCIFIED for the cabaret. Both from the fans, and the critics. From a fan perspective, the sexual overtones and cabaret-style stuff were exactly the sorts of things that Queensryche had always publicly frowned upon for the most part. Queensryche was known to be against things that objectify women (again, generally) and this flew in the face of that. Just like Wilton, the majority of fans recoiled at the sideshow act the Tates were turning Queensryche into.
From a critical view, the cabaret idea (as some have remarked) could have had some legs...had the band not tried to pull it off so cheaply. By using friends and family to keep the costs low, the performance came off second-rate, as opposed to truly professional. Some critics noted that if Queensryche hired experienced talent, and really worked the show, the band may have found a new crossover audience with the cabaret crowd. But Queensryche went on the cheap, and after about 20-25 dates, the concept was put to bed. It lasted, however, through October or so of 2010. Queensryche played “normal” shows, including the aforementioned tour of the Middle East throughout the rest of the calendar year.
On a positive note, the one thing the cabaret tour got a thumb's up on, by many fans, was the setlist. Approximately 90-minutes in length (perhaps a tad more due to costume and set changes), Queensryche played a bunch of tunes that they had shunned on previous tours, including a trio of rarely played songs from Promised Land (the title track, Dis-con-nec-ted, and Lady Jane), and the never-before-played “The Art of Life” from Tribe. The setlist was constructed to support the theme very well, and from the accounts of those that attended, if you closed your eyes and just listened to the music, the band performed extremely well and the songs flowed nicely together.
Dedicated to Chaos (2011)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d0/Queensryche_-_Dedicated_to_Chaos_cover.jpg)
Lead vocals – Geoff Tate
Guitars – Michael Wilton
Bass – Eddie Jackson
Drums – Scott Rockenfield
Additional musicians:
Guitars – Parker Lundgren
Guitars – Kelly Gray
Keyboards – Randy Gane
Bass – Jason Slater
Background vocals – Jason Ames
Background vocals – Miranda Tate
Dedicated to Chaos was released in the U.S. on June 28, 2011 in two different versions – a standard edition, and a special edition with four bonus tracks. It debuted at #70 on the Billboard chart (as opposed to American Soldier being #25 and Operation: Mindcrime II being #14), and dropped like a rock after that. It was, along with 1999's Q2k, likely the most criticized record in Queensryche's career to this point.
Playing up to the title of the album, Dedicated to Chaos was all over the map in terms of musical style. From pop to metal to electronica. Quite simply, it was a mess of a record. Parts of it were a complete sonic departure from what people knew as Queensryche, resulting in a huge backlash from fans...and actual band members (we'll get to that in a bit).
Initially, Dedicated to Chaos was supposed to be a band-written record (unlike Operation: Mindcrime II and American Soldier). The band was not pleased that their contributions were limited over the last couple of records, and allegedly, the four principal members of the band agreed to write the album together. Michael Wilton, Eddie Jackson and Scott Rockenfield got together to come up with initial song ideas. But at some point in early 2011, Tate allegedly flipped the script.
Instead of working on the songs from the band, Tate instead sang on songs given to him by Kelly Gray, Randy Gane (Tate's old bandmate in MYTH) and Jason Slater. Wilton, in particular, was completely shut out from the writing process. In the end, Dedicated to Chaos ended up with a few songs co-written by Jackson and Rockenfield, but the majority were again from outside writers, with Tate doing all the lyrics.
Editor's note: There are a large amount of b-sides compiled for this record. They have never been released, but generally, Slater opened up his unused song library to Tate, and Tate picked quite a few cuts and recorded vocals on them. Again, they've never been leaked or released (to my knowledge). They are also quite varied, style-wise. I have heard them (with Tate's vocals) and most are in the vein of Slater's old band, Snake River Conspiracy, highlighting electronica and the rhythm section.
In addition, Wilton has been asked on multiple occasions what happened to the tracks he was working on for Dedicated to Chaos, and if they would be recycled by Queensryche's current lineup. Wilton generally sidesteps the question, saying the band only works on stuff they have come up with in the present for whatever project they are working on.
Perhaps the most shocking aspect of Dedicated to Chaos was the album's lyrics. Sexually-charged songs such as “Got it Bad” were ridiculed, as were the majority of other tunes on the record. Tate unfortunately comes off as complaining about the world at times (Hot Spot Junkie, Retail Therapy), as opposed to his reputation as a deep thinker. And while coming off of American Soldier, embracing lighter subject areas was probably a welcome change for him, it only served to further build the frustration fans were having with Tate and the direction he was steering the band.
Tate and Rockenfield did a lot of promotion for the album, however, trying to sell it on the strength of it being very rhythm oriented and experimental. If I recall correctly, Rockenfield tried to liken it to Rage for Order meets Empire, which, if you listen, isn't an accurate description at all. As for the rest of the band, they had other ideas. Right at, or prior to Dedicated to Chaos' release, Wilton and Jackson took to social media to share their thoughts.
“I hope you enjoy my guitar parts on the new record” - Michael Wilton (summary/paraphrase)
Eddie Jackson went a step further, and simply apologized to fans on Twitter for the album.
It was a huge public sign of the growing dysfunction in Queensryche that has first reared its head publicly nine years earlier. If you recall, that was when Tate was on the road with his solo band and said on WMMS that Queensryche only spoke through lawyers, and were a dysfunctional group. As you can imagine, the fan backlash, on the strength of those comments from Wilton and Jackson, was immense.
Even Parker Lundgren, who was still a guest in the band at this point, remarked (again paraphrase) that he and the band worked on songs, and then when the record came out, there were songs he had never even heard once before. Wilton's comments about “guitar parts” is also likely accurate. Unlike American Soldier, where you can hear Michael play throughout the album, only a couple of tracks on Dedicated to Chaos have Wilton on them.
To be fair, Dedicated to Chaos has its moments of promise and intrigue. “At the Edge” is probably the highlight, appealing to the progressive rock fan who enjoys Promised Land, as does “Big Noize” (ridiculous spelling aside). Lyrics aside, “Hot Spot Junkie” (great guitar solo) and “The Lie” should capture a bit of interest from hard rock fans.
The singles from the record (if I remember correctly) were "Get Started" (a mid-tempo rocker that lacks any real crunchy guitars), which was used at Seattle Seahawks football games, and "Around the World." The latter is more of a pop rock song whose chorus tries to be a unifying statement that “all we need is love.”
Queensryche had planned a tour marketed initially to support Dedicated to Chaos, but it was quickly scrapped in favor a tour celebrating the band's 30th anniversary. So, instead of being subjected to six or seven songs from the new record, Queensryche played one or two (Get Started, Around the World, and sometimes At the Edge), and the rest were tunes from the back catalog.
The band played gigs throughout 2011 and 2012 in support of its 30th Anniversary and to a minor extent, Dedicated to Chaos. But the tension between them was at an all-time high, and would erupt in April 2012.
Samsara's top tracks from Dedicated to Chaos: At the Edge. (If you really want to stretch, try Hot Spot Junkie).
Next up: 2012-2013: A discussion of the “Brazil Incident,” the fallout and changes from that (Tate's dismissal, Rising West, two Queensryches, etc.), Return to History Tour, Self-titled album.
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At this point in time, I simply stopped to bother with Queensryche.
I was anticipating more this chapter in the thread than the album itself.
Pity that the cabaret was half assed, if done well and tastefully, it could have been something original and more well received, even though the whole idea was kinda whacky to begin with.
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Not much for me to add here. I listened to the official pre-release stream of Dedicated to Chaos. Flipped through it, actually. I determined that there was nothing of value to this album and have never purchased it. It was the first QR album that I had never bought at the time of release, and still do not own it. That broke my heart, coming from my one-time favorite band. But they had been trending downward for me over the years before they put this album out.
The cabaret - the last time I saw them with Geoff as their singer was in 2006. I had lost interest in them due to the oversaturation of touring. They would play 2-3 night stints in Chicago EVERY year, with little variation to the setlist. They'd drop a song from the set on the second night. Geoff would say "hey, you want to hear some "old" Queensryche?" and you knew they'd play either Walk in the Shadows or Lady Wore Black. What's the point of seeing a show every year if it's going to be the same? Sadly, the current incarnation of the band has also fallen victim to this mindset as well.
I grew very, very tired of the same old schtick from the band. And the cabaret was just dumb. Motley Crue did it right on their 2005 Carnival of Sins tour. Big arena setting, a stage that looked like a circus, and some aerial acts, strippers, and the like - all very professionally performed. But you EXPECT that coming from the Crue, the kings of dirt and sleaze. You don't expect it coming from a more thought-provoking band like Queensryche, and the half-assed approach wasn't worth my money at all.
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Before I saw the D2C post, I was coming in here to post something, so I will post it anyway. Just wanted to say that it is NOT related to D2C.
A fan of the band made a comment to me a few times over the years that I didn't buy into at the time. But in revisiting the band's history and my reaction to it, I have come to realize something and embrace it wholeheartedly for the first time: Queensryche is dead. The band I initially became a fan of and loved died when Chris DeGarmo left. And it will never come back. There are better guitar players than Chris DeGarmo. There are better songwriters than Chris DeGarmo. But this band had an undeniable synergy in their early years. And the key element to that synergy was Chris being able to bridge the gap between Tate and the rest of the band and meld their disparate perspectives into something complex and amazing. That died when he left. That isn't to say there weren't cracks when he was still in the band. Yeah, they were dysfunctional during the PL sessions. And the balance had shifted as certain members shut down during the HITNF sessions. But Chris was still the glue that was able to take what other members brought to the table and make it sound like Queensryche.
After he left, the seeds remained. The new version of the band wrote together during the Q2K sessions. And even though the direction ultimately didn't work, they were trying to function as a unit. And when Chris came back for the Tribe sessions, the stuff he worked on had that Queensryche vibe, even if the songs themselves were more modern and different than the classic sound. To me, it shows that this band simply could not be what it was without Chris DeGarmo.
The band definitely had some high points after that. Slater masterfully studied up and was able to bring things that sounded like Queensryche to the table on some of Mindcrime II and quite a bit of American Soldier. There is a fair amount that I like on those two albums (mostly the latter, but still). And I like a LOT of the latest iteration of the band with Todd LaTorre fronting (which I will comment on more later). They are writing some truly great material now with Todd. But they aren't the band they once were. They can't be. That band is dead. And that's fine.
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I have come to realize something and embrace it wholeheartedly for the first time: Queensryche is dead. The band I initially became a fan of and loved died when Chris DeGarmo left. And it will never come back. There are better guitar players than Chris DeGarmo. There are better songwriters than Chris DeGarmo. But this band had an undeniable synergy in their early years. And the key element to that synergy was Chris being able to bridge the gap between Tate and the rest of the band and meld their disparate perspectives into something complex and amazing. That died when he left. That isn't to say there weren't cracks when he was still in the band. Yeah, they were dysfunctional during the PL sessions. And the balance had shifted as certain members shut down during the HITNF sessions. But Chris was still the glue that was able to take what other members brought to the table and make it sound like Queensryche.
After he left, the seeds remained. The new version of the band wrote together during the Q2K sessions. And even though the direction ultimately didn't work, they were trying to function as a unit. And when Chris came back for the Tribe sessions, the stuff he worked on had that Queensryche vibe, even if the songs themselves were more modern and different than the classic sound. To me, it shows that this band simply could not be what it was without Chris DeGarmo.
Amen. That's exactly how I feel, bosk. There are better guitar players and songwriters. But Chris was the key cog of the band for most of us. I didn't realize it until well after he was gone. But it is more clear than ever before. As you said, there was this vibe and synergy in the band's sound that has not been replaced or replicated and never will be. Queensryche, as it was in that original band is gone, and that is fine. If it ever gets resurrected, well, that would be one thing. But at least for now, and likely forever, that band is dead and buried. It is still my favorite band of all time, but I'm fine if it never raises up, and I'm pretty thankful for it, and what I got from that original lineup of Queensryche. I wish the current band the best, but it is not the same for me, and never will be.
EDIT:
Some thoughts on Cabaret/D2C...I was disgusted with it. I'm all for tits and ass as much as the next straight guy. But that's not what Queensryche was about, and it really just soured me on them completely. I didn't see Queensryche live after the American Soldier tour until the first Rising West show in 2012 (we'll get to those later). And when D2C dropped, it was just plain shit. In retrospect, I do see what Tate was trying to do with D2C. But it simply wasn't what Queensryche was. To me, D2C was Tateryche's version of Hear in the Now Frontier -- and what I meant by that is creatively pushing in a direction WAY too far to lose sight of what the band IS.
Slater said something to me in the Mindcrime II sessions that he continually repeated to me through the years, which I then, and now, disagree with. He said that whatever music it is, it becomes Queensryche with Geoff's voice on it. I thoroughly disagree. And D2C was exactly the example I used to push that disagreement. It does have a couple of good seeds on it, song-wise. But other than At the Edge, and a few other brief PARTS of songs, it is downright abysmal, and sounds NOTHING like Queensryche to my ears.
I never bought D2C. In fact, it was the first record I didn't receive a promo copy of in advance since HITNF. A friend bought it and ripped it for me. I gave it one listen, got disgusted. I tried again a month or two later, and that was it. I kept a few songs I thought had potential (At the Edge, Big Noise, Hot Spot Junkie, The Lie, and I Take You), and deleted the rest. I listen to that "EP" of songs maybe once a year, and find a little bit of enjoyment in that, but not much. I listened to D2C in full when doing this write-up, and to be honest, it really wasn't in full. I had to shut it off about 3/4 of the way through. It's just a bad record, IMO. Worst one with Queensryche's name.
It was a very weird time to be a fan of Queensryche...
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Now for D2C and the tour...
I guess I can summarize by saying that I had become thoroughly disgusted with the band at this point. I heard a few snippets form D2C and decided it was NOT for me. Above all else, the songs just weren't there. The band didn't write them, and they weren't anything special. And the problem of Geoff's singing being subpar persisted. Because I am a completist, I wanted to eventually own the album and have it in the collection. But I wouldn't buy a new copy. I wouldn't give a dime to this version of the band, just on principle. So I waited until a finally found a copy in the used bin well over a year after the fact. I spun it once. No desire to ever spin it again. I YouTube'd the songs Samsara highlighted above to see if maybe, years after the fact and just taking them as individual songs, I might find something redeemable in those songs alone. Nope, not really. Nothing about D2C interests me in the slightest (although the cover art is kinda cool).
The tour...not much to say about the Cabaret that hasn't already been said. Part of the problem was the format in general. Queensryche should NOT be doing a cabaret tour at all. That was diametrically opposed to how the band had always marketed themselves. So, I wouldn't have gone even if it was done "right." And the second problem was, as pointed out by several others, the fact that it was done on a shoestring budget just made it feel seedy, cheap, and gross. With Crue, as pointed out above, it not only fit their image, but was also a high-budget spectacle. This wasn't even close to that in any respect. The only thing is, the set list really was pretty good.
This era of the band had me thoroughly disgusted with them. There is the obvious stuff that I mentioned above. But also the fact that the "band" was now a Tate family affair only, right down to the nepotism of Susan running the band, the family members involved in the Cabaret tour, and Parker being the replacement for Mike Stone. It all left a VERY bad taste in my mouth to the point where I would not support the band in any way, shape, or form unless there would be a major change in the way they did things. And given that this was my favorite band for the better part of a decade (and my second favorite for years after that), that is pretty huge. If things didn't change, I was done with them.
But one last note on Parker: He was widely panned at the time, not only for being an unknown when they should have brought in an established player with serious playing chops, even more songwriting chops, and industry cred--but also for the fact that, by all appearances, he was brought in solely because of his relationship with the Tate family. But to his credit, the guy did indeed have playing chops. And he completely dedicated himself to learning how to play the songs correctly, not only in terms of the actual notes, but also going for the correct mood and feel. It would not really become apparent until later what a find he was in that regard, but I can't give the guy enough credit.
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Great write up as usual!
But DTC is still the worst thing I've ever heard from a band that I like.
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Great write up and tbh much better than this period in the band deserves.
The cabaret was an abomination. Motley Crue could pull something like this off, but QR? The thinking mans heavy metal band????
The album is shit. Just shit. I listened once and had to have my ears syringed to get the shit out 😀. And yet, unbelievably, there was worse to come.
If there are unreleased tracks which must be worse than this drivel, I wouldn't want to hear them in a million years.
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I had a good laugh when I saw the announcements for the QR Cabaret shows. That, to me, felt like the absolute lowest of the low they could go, especially when it was clear that not only Geoff's wife, but his daughter would be involved, along with Scott's wife. WTF were they thinking? I felt bad for Michael Wilton seeing his band's reputation getting dragged through the gutter by the Tates. Then again, I wonder why he stuck around. Nothing is worth that kind of embarrassment. Sure, the band is in a better place now because he stuck around, and is now kind of the leader, but wow, was it worth it?
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We're stepping into an era when I was actually aware of the band. I started listening to Queensryche in the summer of 2010 and fell in love with Operation: Mindcrime. There was also plenty of songs to appreciate from the other albums, most of which however grew on me over the next several years. I remember doing some research regarding where the band was at today, only to discover the last 13 years or so of their discography wasn't considered worth listening to by a lot of people and that they were performing shows in a cabaret-like setting. I was confused, to say the least.
I remember when Dedicated to chaos came out, it was the biggest backlash I've ever seen regarding a new release (only to be topped by Lou Reed's and Metallica's "Lulu", Megadeth's "Super collider", and "Frequency unknown"). I've only listened to the first two songs and I though they were fine musically. Lyrics were not up to Queensryche's standards. Influenced by the negative criticism of the album, I've never listened to it in full. I have a busy week ahead of me, but I'll try to give it a listen over the next several days and then dig deeper into it once my vacation starts next week.
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DtC is the only Queensryche album I don't own. I'm pretty sure I've only heard a few songs from it and I'm okay with that.
I remember commenting on Wiltons Facebook page around this time that it was time to get rid of Tate and being surprised to have it "liked" by whoever was running his page.
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I felt bad for Michael Wilton seeing his band's reputation getting dragged through the gutter by the Tates. Then again, I wonder why he stuck around. Nothing is worth that kind of embarrassment.
Despite the belief that musicians make a ton of money, the court documents had some financial sheets attached. The bandmembers do well, but their earnings as of 2012 were modest, low-six figures. They're regular guys with homes, mortgages, kids and expenses just like us.
It's easier to go along with it and take the money than be the sole point of resistance (at the time, Rockenfeld and Tate's wives were close and Parker's married to Tate's daughter, so 3 out of 5 in the band were automatic "yes" votes for a cabaret tour, especially if their significant others might have been drawing a salary for performing on stage, so those families are earning two incomes from the tour).
If you're Wilton, who seems like a pretty relaxed, non-confrontational guy, do you put up a bit stink about it and not tour with your own band, or do you go and just try to play the shit out of the songs every night and hide behind a hood so you don't see the lameness next to you onstage?
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Ah, the Cabaret tour. I remember them advertising the original couple of shows and being appalled.
Then they did a full tour of it and I couldn't quite believe they were seriously doing it.
Then they put out an almost sickening, and truly awful, song celebrating that they did it with a video that still haunts me.
For. Fuck's. Sake.
I never bought DtC but I have managed to hear all the songs via various means and it really did seem like a piss poor effort. Mostly it seemed like Tate just wanted to share his midlife crisis with us.
However, there are a couple of not that bad songs on it that I quite like - Get Started and Around The World. There's also At The Edge, which is almost one of the best songs they put out since the year 2000, but I've looked at that "like 911 a controlled demolition" line a number of times trying to work out what Tate was getting at with it and never been able to work out whether or not he was serious... the end result is I can't listen to it because I can't shake the suspicion that that's genuinely Tate's belief (or was at the time).
It was so sad to see what was once such an incredible band reduced to this.
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This was such a frustrating time to be a Queensryche fan, but due to my enjoyment of Operation Mindcrime II and American Soldier, I still had high hopes for Dedicated to Chaos, especially when Scott had the audacity to compare it to both Rage for Order and Empire. My optimism was crushed once I heard the shockingly bland "Get Started", and I couldn't help but cringe at Geoff's "We're just gettin' wwwwarmed up," delivery. The other song that was released early, "Around the World," was much better to my ears even if it didn't sound anything like Queensryche.
Listening to the album in its entirety was simply one of the most bizarre and baffling experiences I've had, and I knew it was going to serve as the last straw for many long-suffering fans. By far the biggest horror came with "Wot We Do," which is probably the worst song I have in my entire music collection, and the fact that it has Queensryche's name on it is upsetting. "Got it Bad" and "I Believe" are also laughably bad. There are so many comedic, WTF moments on the album that at least you can't call it boring.
I agree that "At the Edge" is decent but there are a few other positives in my opinion. "Hard Times" is a really pretty song, which I believe was written by Scott. "Drive" has a pleasant, upbeat groove, "Big Noize" has a spacey opening guitar solo that actually sounds like it came from the same band who made Operation Mindcrime and Promised Land, and "Retail Therapy" and "The Lie" are both fairly catchy.
Last night out of morbid curiosity I revisited some of the Cabaret footage of Youtube, and it was just as appalling as I remembered. I'm just thankful that I didn't have to witness that atrocity in an actual audience because that would have been really depressing and uncomfortable. It's stunning how the band not only survived that, but would soon be making incredible metal music once again.
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I agree that "At the Edge" is decent but there are a few other positives in my opinion. "Hard Times" is a really pretty song, which I believe was written by Scott. "Drive" has a pleasant, upbeat groove, "Big Noize" has a spacey opening guitar solo that actually sounds like it came from the same band who made Operation Mindcrime and Promised Land, and "Retail Therapy" and "The Lie" are both fairly catchy.
Big Noize is on my short list after At the Edge. I agree, the opening is kinda cool.
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I felt bad for Michael Wilton seeing his band's reputation getting dragged through the gutter by the Tates. Then again, I wonder why he stuck around. Nothing is worth that kind of embarrassment.
Despite the belief that musicians make a ton of money, the court documents had some financial sheets attached. The bandmembers do well, but their earnings as of 2012 were modest, low-six figures. They're regular guys with homes, mortgages, kids and expenses just like us.
It's easier to go along with it and take the money than be the sole point of resistance (at the time, Rockenfeld and Tate's wives were close and Parker's married to Tate's daughter, so 3 out of 5 in the band were automatic "yes" votes for a cabaret tour, especially if their significant others might have been drawing a salary for performing on stage, so those families are earning two incomes from the tour).
If you're Wilton, who seems like a pretty relaxed, non-confrontational guy, do you put up a bit stink about it and not tour with your own band, or do you go and just try to play the shit out of the songs every night and hide behind a hood so you don't see the lameness next to you onstage?
I went back and read Wilton's statement from the 2012 lawsuit, and I can see he was contemplating leaving after the Cabaret debacle, but he decided to stay as support for Scott and Ed. Seems he and Tate hadn't gotten along for nearly a decade at that point.
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Ah yes, we have finally arrived at the "i want to throw up in my mouth" era, AKA the "I am embarrassed to be a QR fan" era.
I was so utterly disgusted by all of that non-sense. From the shitty, god awful album, to the appalling cabaret act where he let his daughter make a pig out of herself on stage. Must take after mommy, the ex-stripper. Boy Tate, you know how to pick em.
Wilton must have been losing his mind. No wife should ever manage a band, or be overly involved in a band's business. Its just asking for trouble.
To hell with all of that. At this point I was 100% done with QR, expecting nothing to change. Well, its always darkest before the dawn I guess, and its about to get a whole lot brighter.
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I was getting dangerously close myself at this point in time to throwing in the towel myself figuring things would never change.
Just when ya thought it couldn't get any worse, The American Soldier tour was where I started to begin to feel the band had began to just be going through the motions. Then came the Cabaret tour and the dreaded Dedicated to Chaos album. Like many others have said, I never even bothered to purchase this record, the only Queensryche album I do not own and I can't see that changing, I have no desire to purchase it. I heard all I care to hear off the internet. If the band would have broke up during this time frame between DTC and the Brazil incident (wiping out the Tate firing and La Torre era, and they instead would have just disbanded) It would have been really sad and a shame, you talk about going from the penthouse to the gutter. Had they broke up and all that was left of their legacy was a steady downward slide that ended with the cabaret, DTC, and the assault and battery that was Brazil. That would have really sucked.
Thank God, that wasn't the end and it did not end on that note. The two best records by Queensryche since 1994 by far have been the next two on deck.
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I was completely checked out by now.
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From Dedicated to Chaos has a few good tunes. All Around the World is really good. At the Edge and Get Started are pretty good. I skipped the Cabaret tour because well it should be obvious. That was a time too where I didn't miss a QR tour since the joint shows with DT.
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Brian,. great write-ups!
I'm sorry not to contribute to the thread. They lost me at Promised Land, even though I would buy HITNF. With the exception of OM:II, I would never buy another Queensryche album again. They literally fell off the earth for me. A real musical tragedy.
I actually thought American Soldier was decent, sounding quite focused. But I just couldn't bring myself to spin it for this thread. But I've been reading the write-ups right along. :tup
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Needless to say I was totally lost come 'Cabaret' but I hadn't even bought 'Tribe' so, yeah. The antics were getting so riddiculous at this point I was disgusted by the band (or Tate). I didn't even bother with Dedicated to Chaos. I love these write-ups though.
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Queensryche doing a show with strippers? No thanks! If this was Motley Crue or Whitesnake it would be kinda fitting with the image but surely not the former “thinking man’s metal” group. And I just read here that the Crue did it and did it better.
And this being America, were they really stripping or just dancing around in their underwear? Not that this would have been better, I’m just curious.
When D2C came out I sampled two or three tracks on youtube, didn’t like them and decided that, after so many letdowns, I finally had enough of Queensryche. Never bought the record, never listened to it in full and don’t intend to do so.
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A fan of the band made a comment to me a few times over the years that I didn't buy into at the time. But in revisiting the band's history and my reaction to it, I have come to realize something and embrace it wholeheartedly for the first time: Queensryche is dead. The band I initially became a fan of and loved died when Chris DeGarmo left. And it will never come back.
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I'm with you on this one. Even if Tate would work on his vocals, make amends and they would reunite with him and DeGarmo and put out new music, they wouldn't be the Queensryche of old. Too much time has passed to recapture that early spirit. They would maybe put out good music (as they do imo with Todd) but it would be different. Kinda like Iron Maiden after the reunion, they are clearly still Iron Maiden, but not the Maiden of Powerslave, Piece of Mind etc.
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Seems like nobody saw the cabaret tour and nobody bought the album. Wow. :lol
Next up: 2012-2013: A discussion of the “Brazil Incident,” the fallout and changes from that (Tate's dismissal, Rising West, two Queensryches, etc.), Return to History Tour, Self-titled album.
Whoa, are you really going to cover all of this within one update? There's a lot to cram into that post, including two albums. As far as I'm concerned, take your time. ;) :tup
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Seems like nobody saw the cabaret tour and nobody bought the album. Wow. :lol
I know people saw the tour - the band has a lot of die-hards that see them every time they come through their town. But like Samsara's writeup said, they had to rely on gimmicks to tour since they'd burned out so many cities by touring so relentlessly.
The court documents confirmed album sales, and Dedicated to Chaos had completely dismal sales compared to American Soldier and Mindcrime II. As of 2012, I think the album had sold maybe 12,000 copies total. If I'm not mistaken, the next album (the first with Todd) sold more albums in its first week of release than Dedicated to Chaos sold all year.
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Brian,. great write-ups!
I'm sorry not to contribute to the thread. They lost me at Promised Land, even though I would buy HITNF. With the exception of OM:II, I would never buy another Queensryche album again. They literally fell off the earth for me. A real musical tragedy.
I actually thought American Soldier was decent, sounding quite focused. But I just couldn't bring myself to spin it for this thread. But I've been reading the write-ups right along. :tup
Thanks man!
Whoa, are you really going to cover all of this within one update? There's a lot to cram into that post, including two albums. As far as I'm concerned, take your time. ;) :tup
Nah, it's pretty easy to do, honestly. There's not much to really cover. I already wrote it. Pretty much -- here's the situation, here's what happened, here's the fallout, here are the records. I'm not skipping anything, but to be honest, if people want the finer details of what happened in the lawsuit, there's a whole page with all the documents in date order they can read if they choose.
So that all will be one write-up, and then there will be a short one with Condition Human, and then this wraps up. It has been fun, but to be honest, I'm ready to be done.
Edit - check that. The next write-up will be the upheaval, Rising West, 2 Queensryches, and Frequency Unknown. The final write-up will cover the self-titled album (Queensryche 2013) and Condition Human. It is better to split them up that way, now that I am close to having it all written up.
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You know, before this point if they had made the change to Todd I might not have been in support of it...but this album and tour really opened up my mind. Over the course of these two years (including the soon to be discussed 'Brazil incident') my perception of Tate changed dramatically.
I was sooooo on board for QRyche 2.0 largely because of this era.
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Rarely post but have too especially when it came to one of my favorite bands back in the day. Bosk's post about Queensryche being "dead" after De Garmo left pretty much says it all, even though we didn't know it at the time.
They became such a clusterf**k of a band it was totally ridiculous especially with the Cabaret tour and D2C. I can't think of another band that sunk so low. If I was Wilton there would be no way I would have put up with that, would have left for sure, EdBass too. As soon as a band stops being a band and has outside people writing their music they "die" for me. Of course a song here and there with outside writing is acceptable, but come on! Part of my enjoyment of liking a good band is the music they create together as a true band. That definitely stopped with Queensryche a ling time ago. Thankfully they kind of redeemed themselves with last 2 releases, but I haven't even listened to them much because of what had happened to this once great band.
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2012 Upheaval
Queensryche was at a breaking point in early 2012. On the surface, the band was touring for its 30th anniversary. But beneath it all, the core of the group was rotting. On top of that, some...shady things were going on.
Editor's Note: I have to be honest here in these write-ups. I don't really want to rehash a lot of this negativity, nor my role in some of what was to come. So, I am going to keep it basic, leading up to the Brazil incident. If you don't know the story, and want to know more, just PM me if you have questions.
Here are some of the things that was going on:
1) Scott Rockenfield uncovered that the Tates were preparing to sign away the movie rights to Operation: Mindcrime, which would have netted the Tates a windfall (not a ton, but rumored to be about $1 million), and the band would not have been aware of it happening (nor would they have gotten any money from it).
2) Wilton discovered singer Todd La Torre at NAMM in January 2012 (a chance run-in when La Torre mistakenly thought Wilton was Testament guitarist Eric Peterson), and the duo began writing material for commercials (Wilton had been doing instrumentals for commercials and TV shows for years).
3) Wilton was informed of an alleged plan of the Tates to have the band do a 25th Anniversary tour of Operation: Mindcrime in 2013, and when it concluded, Tate would walk away from Queensryche, leaving them without a singer.
4) An increasing number of Tate family members and extravagant charges began popping up in the payroll, and requests from members to look at the books were allegedly being denied.
5) The band began seriously evaluating all this and considering finding new management to curb a lot of the nepotism in their organization.
All of this came to a head in April 2012. Queensryche was headlining a show in Brazil with Fates Warning in support. Prior to the show, the band called a meeting to discuss management, and Tate declined to attend. The band voted to remove Susan Tate as manager of the group.
As the story goes, Tate found out about this, walked into the room at some point after the meeting had concluded, and asked if it was true. After hearing it was, he left. Then, prior to the show, in a fit of rage, he spit at and punched Michael Wilton in the eye, tore down Scott Rockenfield's drum kit, and went into a rage and had to be restrained by members of the crew. This delayed the show. When the band finally got cleaned up, they elected to move forward with the gig. During the show, Tate continually spit on Wilton and Rockenfield. At the end of the gig, the band and Tate were separated, and the parties flew home separately.
In May, Wilton, Eddie Jackson, and Scott Rockenfield, along with Parker Lundgren, announced a side project with Crimson Glory singer Todd La Torre, called RISING WEST. The group would perform tracks from Queensryche's first five releases (EP through Empire). The move also raised tensions in the Queensryche camp, as rumors circulated they were planning to replace Tate with La Torre.
Queensryche (with Tate) performed a scheduled date at Rocklahoma in late May. During this show, Tate told the crowd that “you guys suck.” Once the show concluded, the musicians in Queensryche prepared for the RISING WEST gigs.
RISING WEST made its debut on June 8, 2012, at the Hard Rock Cafe in Seattle, Washington. The band played on June 8 and June 9, performing identical setlists consisting of blistering metal hits from Queensryche's first four albums, and a cover of Iron Maiden's “Wrathchild.” Opening the shows with “Queen of the Reich,” where La Torre showcased his extreme high range in hitting the opening note of the song, the band played the songs in their original tuning. This differed from current Queensryche, which played many of the old songs down-tuned a half-step to assist Tate a bit so he could hit the notes a little lower.
The shows were fully sold out, and a complete success. Potential new management for the group were also there, and were blown away. Word of the performances spread like wildfire worldwide.
Editor's Note: I was there for both of those Rising West gigs, and for soundcheck and some rehearsal stuff. It was pretty amazing to watch. The band had rehearsed the set for four days straight prior to that first gig, dialing it in. You should have seen my mouth drop open at soundcheck for the first night. Todd walked out on the stage, and just effortlessly replicated the album opening note in Queen of the Reich with power. That one isn't on YouTube. And even though the shows are recorded, it really doesn't do them justice. It was an incredible vibe. It really made me believe in the band again. The whole room was buzzing all night long. It was a throwback of epic proportions in all the best ways and set the stage for what was to come.
In the weeks that followed, Queensryche played one more gig they had booked with Tate, and then terminated him from the group, replacing Tate with Todd La Torre.
Tate followed with a lawsuit against the band for wrongful termination, who countered sued. You can read the court filings (in order, for the most part) here: https://anybodylistening.net/lawsuit.html. These documents recount everything the parties were fighting over, and ultimately lead to a settlement two years later for an undisclosed sum. In a nutshell, the band got the rights to the name “Queensryche,” while Tate got money and the exclusive right to perform Operation: Mindcrime and Operation: Mindcrime II in their respective entirety.
In the interim, however, Queensryche booked shows, making its live debut under the name with La Torre at the Halfway Jam in Minnesota, on July 28, 2012. To-date, this is the longest set Queensryche has performed with La Torre, playing 19 songs and close to two hours. For the most part, since then, Queensryche's headline shows typically run 15-17 songs in length and 80-90-minutes.
They booked a tour throughout the remainder of 2012 and 2013 titled “Return to History,” where the band pulled out a setlist comprising various hits and deep cuts from 1982-1990. The tour received praise from both fans and critics.
During this time, however, a judge in the lawsuit ruled that both parties (Wilton, Jackson, Rockenfield and Geoff Tate) could perform AS Queensryche. So, as the “real” Queensryche was playing gigs with La Torre, Tate assembled a band of various players including Kelly Gray and Randy Gane to head out on the road as well. Their angle was performing Operation: Mindcrime in its entirety in 2013. So for two years, there were TWO Queensryches competing against one another for publicity and money.
As you can imagine, the competition between both groups fractured the fanbase, as fans took sides in the “war” over what side would ultimately win the name of “Queensryche.” Ultimately, after a lot of back and forth in the media, each band would release an album in 2013.
The first one was from Geoff Tate's version of the band...
Queensryche (Tate): Frequency Unknown (2013)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3e/Queensryche_with_Geoff_Tate_-_Frequency_Unknown.jpg/220px-Queensryche_with_Geoff_Tate_-_Frequency_Unknown.jpg)
Lead vocals: Geoff Tate
Other personnel: There are so many contributors who recorded parts to the record, I am simply going to link the Wikipedia page here. It is very thorough, and has more knowledge about the record than I have. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_Unknown
Geoff Tate's version of Queensryche was the first to release an album of new material. Dropping in April 23, 2013 on Cleopatra, the record was available on CD, LP, and cassette (yes, a cassette tape). Tate co-wrote the record with Jason Slater, Randy Gane and a few outside writers, most notably Lukas Rossi of the reality show Rock Star: Supernova, who contributed a couple of tunes.
It was originally recorded and mixed by Jason Slater, and then later remixed by Billy Sherwood and re-released in 2014. It was later noted that in the rush to get the record out to the public before the other Queensryche (Wilton-Jackson-Rockenfield), the quality control on the mix suffered, so Cleopatra enlisted someone else to spruce up the recording.
Upon its initial release, Frequency Unknown was slammed by most critics and fans. Starting with the album cover and title, which most assumed was a derogatory slap at Tate's former bandmates, the division among those who had sided with the musicians of Queensryche and those who had sided with Tate was at its highest point.
In what was one of the most...odd promotional campaigns for the album, Cleopatra ran a contest enabling fans to record themselves to rip on/rant about Frequency Unknown and submit it to Tate. Tate then responded to these in a video of his own. You can find some of this on YouTube.
The Music
The songs on Frequency Unknown, however, weren't as gaudy and childish as the album cover and alleged message that was being sent. Extremely riff-heavy, the set is highlighted by the single, “Cold,” and the epic “The Weight of the World.” Craig Locicero (Forbidden) played rhythm guitar on on all songs, really bring a metal vibe to the project. The solos were handled by a who's who list of guest musicians including KK Downing (Judas Priest), Chris Poland (ex-Megadeth) and Ty Tabor (King's X), among others.
In short, it appears Tate wanted a metal record to shove up his former bandmates' collective asses, and for the most part, Frequency Unknown delivered - even if it wasn't successful. Listening to the album four years removed from the controversy, there certainly are high points to appreciate. In addition to the above-mentioned tracks, which are likely the top cuts, “Slave” is notable for just how plain heavy it is. To this point in his career, Tate likely hasn't sung over anything quite this heavy. It also has some atmosphere, which helps provide needed dynamics in the tune. Another standout is “Fallen.” Although still heavy, it has a lot of interesting progressions, musically.
Editor's Note: Unfortunately, Tate also re-recorded some Queensryche classics with different musicians which were tagged onto various versions of the album. I think it is safe to say that these are woefully inferior to the original recordings by the actual Queensryche.
The problem with Frequency Unknown, is that it is very obviously contrived. The style of music being presented is very modern metal, with tons of guitar solos and chunky riffs. But anyone paying attention to Geoff Tate's musical tastes leading up to this record knows it is exactly the opposite of what he had been gravitating to. In retrospect, even Slater admitted the entire record was a rush job to beat the “other” Queensryche to the market.
Given more time, and some reworking, the songs on Frequency Unknown might actually have broader appeal to the hard rock/metal audience. But that ship has sailed, and the album has languished in obscurity over the last few years.
I'm not sure what else to say about Frequency Unknown. It is a complete oddity in the catalog, and obviously not a traditional Queensryche record. It's Queensryche in name, but quite clearly a contrived project only meant to further Tate's legal position at the time he was fighting against his former bandmates.
But those former bandmates would respond about a month later with a landmark statement...
Samsara's top-tracks on Frequency Unknown: Cold, The Weight of the World
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3) Wilton was informed of an alleged plan of the Tates to have the band do a 25th Anniversary tour of Operation: Mindcrime in 2013, and when it concluded, Tate would walk away from Queensryche, leaving them without a singer.
This is the first time I've heard about this. Is this in the lawsuit documents?
I recall Frequency unknown was severely criticized upon release. It will get several listens from me next week, though, but I'm still digesting Dedicated to chaos. This album really is an oddity, everything about it is so strange.
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This is the first time I've heard about this. Is this in the lawsuit documents?
I recall Frequency unknown was severely criticized upon release. It will get several listens from me next week, though, but I'm still digesting Dedicated to chaos. This album really is an oddity, everything about it is so strange.
I thought it was, although I could be mistaken (I haven't gone back to check). Long story short, Wilton was tipped off from someone who was close friends with both Slater and himself about what was in the works.
Yeah, I realize I sped up some things here. I apologize, but to be honest, I'd like to wrap all this up before the end of the month. I'll post the last entry (covering both albums to-date with La Torre) next Wednesday. So, I wanted to get this interim piece in there now, and figured there probably wasn't going to be a lot of D2C discussion.
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Samsara, I am thoroughly enjoying these write ups. Thank you!
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Yes...thank-you so much Samsara for the time and effort you put into these...it has been a wonderful read.
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Yes...thank-you so much Samsara for the time and effort you put into these...it has been a wonderful read.
Seconded. This thread has been a fun ride!
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I remember all the drama as it went down.
By that time, I stopped caring about Queensryche, but from an outsider, Tate got what was coming to him. Reading now that Frequency Unknown may have had its moment it's even worse, since as pointed out it could have been a nice album rather than a "Hey quick write me a metal album to go tell my bandmates to FU" move. On principle I will never bother to listen to this, ever.
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I had been down on Geoff's vocals since Mindcrime II/Take Cover. So when the split happened, I was all for it. I hadn't seen the band on the last few tours and was hoping that injecting some new life, and a real metal singer into the band could spark some creativity. I had known of Todd through him being the current singer for Crimson Glory, though that band rarely did any touring and zero recording. I watched the Rocklahoma set, and read about all of the issues surrounding the breakup. I recall that Portnoy actually witnessed everything, as he was drumming for Fates Warning, who were also at that same show in Brazil.
The fan drama surrounding the singer change was absolutely pathetic. I get being upset that your favorite band fired their legendary singer, but to take it to the extremes that both sides did, was so lame, and anyone involved in that stuff should be completely ashamed of themselves. There's more to life than whether or not your favorite musician is in a particular band, and there's more to life than badgering others via the internet. Sadly, there will always be idiots that feel the need to bully people for some perceived slight, their beliefs, or the happenings surrounding sports, music, or any other topic, including forums related to said topics.
And quote honestly, the lawsuit documents are a fascinating read - I work in insurance and get to read all sorts of lawsuits that develop into insurance claims, so reading about the inner workings of my one-time favorite band was incredible. It also shed a ton of light on the situation, and I never followed them as closely as others, and as Queensryche once sang - it let the fans read between the lines and feel the walls become sand beneath their feet. Rather than having to listen to the propaganda from one camp or the other, the info was there for the public to read themselves.
As for Frequency Unknown, I never had any interest. It's really sad that it took these events to get Geoff to metal himself back up, and anyone familiar with him or his music could see though that a mile away. I supported the band during this time and thought it was silly that Geoff opted to rush an album out so they could muddy the waters about who was "Queensryche." That being said, the band didn't do themselves any favor by rushing their album out either.
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I had been down on Geoff's vocals since Mindcrime II/Take Cover. So when the split happened, I was all for it. I hadn't seen the band on the last few tours and was hoping that injecting some new life, and a real metal singer into the band could spark some creativity.
Agreed. But unlike you, I knew nothing about LaTorre before the Rising West business. I heard the cover of QOTR he put up on YouTube first, if memory serves. My reaction was along the lines of, "Wow, dude sounds JUST like Tate in the glory days. I know it is a lot easier to pull off a great performance in studio than live, but if he sounds even a fraction of this good, it's better than Tate has sounded in years." Hearing some clips from the RW shows and the reviews of Todd's performance, I was all-in when it was announced that Tate was dismissed and the band was continuing with Todd as the new singer.
The fan drama surrounding the singer change was absolutely pathetic. I get being upset that your favorite band fired their legendary singer, but to take it to the extremes that both sides did, was so lame, and anyone involved in that stuff should be completely ashamed of themselves.
I mostly agree, although with the assumption that "involved" doesn't simply mean discussing and commenting on it all, which a lot of us here did on this forum and the Breakdown Room. Most of that was fine, and most of what did manage to cross the line on either of those two forums was put down by the mods. But yeah, there was a lot out there that was positively toxic.
That said, given the things that came out about what Geoff had done, I think it was easy to "pick sides" without really even thinking about it. Yeah, there is still speculation about quite a bit of it. But as far as the stuff that was corroborated by witnesses, there was no way a lot of us could have gotten behind Tate. And I think it was telling that a lot of people close to the band that I might have assumed would have followed or been loyal to Tate ended up showing loyalty to the band instead (e.g. Fozzy, Pamela Moore, etc.).
As for Frequency Unknown, I never had any interest. It's really sad that it took these events to get Geoff to metal himself back up, and anyone familiar with him or his music could see though that a mile away. I supported the band during this time and thought it was silly that Geoff opted to rush an album out so they could muddy the waters about who was "Queensryche." That being said, the band didn't do themselves any favor by rushing their album out either.
I had no interest either. For one thing, given Geoff's conduct, there was no way I was going to support him in this project. It usually takes a lot for a musician's conduct alone to sour me on buying otherwise good music unless the person outwardly engages in something that I really find morally offensive. But Tate had crossed the line as far as I was concerned, and I just couldn't get past that. Of course, the decision was made easier for me by the fact that the music just wasn't that good. Despite Samsara's more positive review of the music now that there is a lot more water under the bridge, I didn't find what I heard at all interesting at the time and have no desire to revisit it now. And I don't think I could get past the knowledge that it is packaged as "Queensryche" despite that it is nothing of the kind.
Another interesting tidbit relating to the album that I will repeat: When we found out who the guest musicians were, I was REALLY disappointed to see Dave Meniketti's name on the list, and I told him so. His response was basically, "Hey, I didn't know about all the drama. I was just asked by a friend to come in and lay down a solo, so I did. I had no idea about all this baggage." And to be clear about my paraphrase, I don't think he was apologizing for having done his guest spot, but more just explaining that he wasn't aware of what had happened and wasn't taking any side or position on any of it. And that's all fine.
Anyhow, this was a REALLY interesting time in the band's history. A lot of things about the band dynamic that had been hinted at or speculated about through the years in terms of their dysfunction had now been confirmed and put out on display, and it was so much more and so much deeper than I think most of us could have imagined. From that perspective, it was a dark time. Add to the fact that the lawsuit was going on, and I think a lot of fans felt uncertainty. But there was also the prospect of them FINALLY making good music again with Todd, and performing the classics the way they were meant to be performed. I know most of us were really looking forward to hearing what the band could achieve. And once the "return to history" touring started, we were really happy with what the band was giving us in a live setting. So, despite the upheaval, things were...good.
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I mostly agree, although with the assumption that "involved" doesn't simply mean discussing and commenting on it all, which a lot of us here did on this forum and the Breakdown Room. Most of that was fine, and most of what did manage to cross the line on either of those two forums was put down by the mods. But yeah, there was a lot out there that was positively toxic.
That said, given the things that came out about what Geoff had done, I think it was easy to "pick sides" without really even thinking about it. Yeah, there is still speculation about quite a bit of it. But as far as the stuff that was corroborated by witnesses, there was no way a lot of us could have gotten behind Tate. And I think it was telling that a lot of people close to the band that I might have assumed would have followed or been loyal to Tate ended up showing loyalty to the band instead (e.g. Fozzy, Pamela Moore, etc.).
I'm referring to activities that were conducted off of both DTF and the Breakdown Room forums. It was really sad to hear how badly some fans were being treated, and I'm glad that the forums did what they could to keep that drama off of the boards, for the most part. I wasn't a fan of Tate at all during this period, but I wouldn't begrudge people for being a fan of his, though it was clear that some people see him through rose colored glasses, and lay the blame squarely at the band's feet.
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I remember when Dedicated to chaos came out, it was the biggest backlash I've ever seen regarding a new release (only to be topped by Lou Reed's and Metallica's "Lulu", Megadeth's "Super collider", and "Frequency unknown").
You should have been around for Queen's 'Hot Space'! >:(
Sorry that I have to step back to DtC for a second, and provide Tate's link for the 'Kilroy Was Here' on steroids 'old chum' tour
https://geofftate.com/the-queensryche-cabaret/
and also mention how tough it had to have been to be somewhat in the middle of all of that at the time, not only as still loyal fans, but also as a webmaster. Appreciate all that you do and don't write out of a code of honor for these troubling times. I'm starting to sift through the court documents. I've finished the plaintiff's motion and defense response. No need for me to go into derogatory nouns and adjectives here, as the legal words speak for themselves.
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I've only recently become a fan of Queen and I actually like Hot space quite a bit. ;)
Samsara, I hope you didn't interpret my post as "slow down with the write-ups". It's your thread and you should do it the way you want to, especially since every single update was very detailed, informative and entertaining. You're truly doing a remarkable job with this. :tup
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I quite enjoyed the drama, in a sick, twisted way. I blamed Tate for ruining my once favourite band so took some delight in his downfall.
I did also blame the rest of the band for allowing him to do it. They should have stood up for their band.
I was excited at the thought of Rising West because those songs deserve to be played, and played well. It seemed like it was only a matter of time before Todd would be in QR.
Then FU came along. In theory, it should be more up my street than the last several albums. More riff, guest solos from some of my favourite players. I've heard it once and it is a steaming pile of shite. I won't be playing it again. And those rerecords? Fucking hilarious. In a bad way. How far up his own arse would Tate need to be to think his vocal on Silent Lucidity was anything but embarrassing?
Anyway, Wolfking wrote the best review of FU, it's in the Classic Metal thread. Well worth a read. Certainly more entertaining than the album.
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Anyway, Wolfking wrote the best review of FU, it's in the Classic Metal thread. Well worth a read. Certainly more entertaining than the album.
:rollin I had forgotten about that.
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I remember when Dedicated to chaos came out, it was the biggest backlash I've ever seen regarding a new release (only to be topped by Lou Reed's and Metallica's "Lulu", Megadeth's "Super collider", and "Frequency unknown").
You should have been around for Queen's 'Hot Space'! >:(
Sorry that I have to step back to DtC for a second, and provide Tate's link for the 'Kilroy Was Here' on steroids 'old chum' tour
https://geofftate.com/the-queensryche-cabaret/
and also mention how tough it had to have been to be somewhat in the middle of all of that at the time, not only as still loyal fans, but also as a webmaster. Appreciate all that you do and don't write out of a code of honor for these troubling times. I'm starting to sift through the court documents. I've finished the plaintiff's motion and defense response. No need for me to go into derogatory nouns and adjectives here, as the legal words speak for themselves.
:facepalm: :lol :rollin
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This period made me give on on QR and Tate. I had zero interest in QR without Tate and zero interest in Tate on his own. I tried to listen to the two QR albums without Tate and could not get into them. I also did not buy FU orDedicated to Chaos before that, but did buy a few songs off Dedicated. However starting this year I started to hear very positive feedback on Tate's acoustic show. Saw a few clips on Youtube, saw a few interviews with him, he seemed like a different man, more at peace with himself. Enough time had passed from the spitting incident so I decided to see the acoustic show. So glad I did. Fantastic set list and Tate sounded very good but before that I took about a six year break from anything Tate or QR related.
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To each their own, but your missing out on two really good records in the S/T and Condition Human albums. One listen to those helps erase many years of pain :metal
Edit: but then again, hell. DTC and Frequency Unknown are near rock masterpieces when compared to Queen's Hot Space, sorry Dragon Attack :lol but you brought it up, and what balls you had as a queen fan to do so :hefdaddy
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Anyway, Wolfking wrote the best review of FU, it's in the Classic Metal thread. Well worth a read. Certainly more entertaining than the album.
:rollin I had forgotten about that.
Cheers guys.
I guess I don't need to add anything in here at this point. My feelings are known. :lol
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Anyway, Wolfking wrote the best review of FU, it's in the Classic Metal thread. Well worth a read. Certainly more entertaining than the album.
:rollin I had forgotten about that.
Cheers guys.
I guess I don't need to add anything in here at this point. My feelings are known. :lol
Since you have so many posts, can you link it here or repost. I am very curious now.
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^
and...Samsara, you forgot these 'gems' from Mr. Tate:
'Silver Bells' from 2008 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upp3sXYFKks
and 'Summerwind' from 2011 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNETnBjEtGY
'Wot He Do?' It sure did :censored
(btw, for 35 years, the official Side One version of 'Hot Space' has never existed on any of my formats. Thank goodness for a few solo tracks from that era.....)
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Thanks again fort he write-ups, even if they just present a short version of what happened. No need to go in further as that chapter is thankfully closed.
3) Wilton was informed of an alleged plan of the Tates to have the band do a 25th Anniversary tour of Operation: Mindcrime in 2013, and when it concluded, Tate would walk away from Queensryche, leaving them without a singer.
Didn’t hear this before, that’s interesting. I wonder what Tate’s motivation was, even without all the drama I can’t imagine him drawing a larger crowd solo that with QR.
Then, prior to the show, in a fit of rage, he spit at and punched Michael Wilton in the eye, tore down Scott Rockenfield's drum kit, and went into a rage and had to be restrained by members of the crew. This delayed the show. When the band finally got cleaned up, they elected to move forward with the gig. During the show, Tate continually spit on Wilton and Rockenfield. At the end of the gig, the band and Tate were separated, and the parties flew home separately.
I‘m certainly not one for violence and appreciate almost every nonviolent approach but I still have to wonder why no-one just gave Tate a well deserved beating.
Never listened to FU, never will accept it as a Queensryche record, no matter what the album sleeve says. There’s just too much negative vibe from Tate connected with this record.
Never knew Todd LaTorre before he joined QR, but at that point I would have been content with any singer other than Tate.
And this is so true:
I quite enjoyed the drama, in a sick, twisted way. I blamed Tate for ruining my once favourite band so took some delight in his downfall.
I did also blame the rest of the band for allowing him to do it. They should have stood up for their band.
And yes, wolfking's review of FU is the best thing that came out of that record :metal :metal :metal
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I have to confess that these kind of drama is our TV gossip. I mean, "normal" people follow the Brangelina split and the likes, we music aficionados can't help but follow intensely this kind of band breakups.
And for all the heated discussions we're having in the other thread about Mike Portnoy's band, and sometimes the things he says on social media... let's just be happy the DT split was nowhere near as ugly as the Queensryche's one. Yeah, there were some comments here and there from time to time but in the grand scheme of things, it was absolutely civil.
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Anyway, Wolfking wrote the best review of FU, it's in the Classic Metal thread. Well worth a read. Certainly more entertaining than the album.
:rollin I had forgotten about that.
Cheers guys.
I guess I don't need to add anything in here at this point. My feelings are known. :lol
Link, please? ;)
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I simply don't regard FU as a Queensryche album, it's a rushed Tate solo record with the QR name slapped on it for some pathetic "if I get there first I prove I'm really QR all by myself" chest beating codstwaddle reasoning. Cold isn't a half bad song but the rest is eminently forgettable... and the whole record sounds like cheap shit. I did hear the remixes and they sounded worse to my ears.
The most entertaining thing about it is the Fremdschamen intrinsic to the re-recorded QR classics. Holy fuck are they bad, and in a genuinely "so bad they're good" funny way.
I've often wondered why the original copyright holders let it go that they'd blatantly lifted recordings from the original song for Jet City Woman (e.g. "echo in my head like a scream"). There might even be backing vocals lifted from the original too as there's a hint of DeGarmos voice to the ones in the chorus. I guess it just wasn't worth it financially as those re-recordings probably haven't generated enough income to buy dog food for a month since they were released.
Anyway, after this Tate was officially gone from QR and thank heavens for that.
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I've been pretty busy, so I'm lagging behind quite a bit :lol I listened to Mindcrime 2, and while it starts out alright, after The Hands it takes a nosedive. It gets better with Re-Arrange You and The Chase, but towards the end the album just plods along and it feels like Tate and Slater ran out of decent ideas and just phoned in the rest, because they knew it would sell because of the magic word "mindcrime".
Take Cover has a few nice versions, like Welcome to the Machine and Red Rain, and the song picks are luckily not the most obvious, but Tate's performance drags the record down. It's just depressing how a once legendary singer stopped caring and was content with becoming the weak link of his band.
I'll listen to American Soldier, D2C and FU :soon:. Based on the songs I've heard I'm not expecting much from the latter 2, but we'll see how it goes.
Then, prior to the show, in a fit of rage, he spit at and punched Michael Wilton in the eye, tore down Scott Rockenfield's drum kit, and went into a rage and had to be restrained by members of the crew. This delayed the show. When the band finally got cleaned up, they elected to move forward with the gig. During the show, Tate continually spit on Wilton and Rockenfield. At the end of the gig, the band and Tate were separated, and the parties flew home separately.
I‘m certainly not one for violence and appreciate almost every nonviolent approach but I still have to wonder why no-one just gave Tate a well deserved beating.
I'm just speculating, but I'd guess they were too taken aback and shocked to do anything in that situation. Also since nobody fought back, Tate remained the only one who acted violently during the incident, which might've helped the band's case in court and probably made it even easier for fans to side with them once the drama became public.
I remember the controversy from 5 years ago and it made me check out QR for the time. I was perversely fascinated by the series of events and was following the news on Blabbermouth and reading the court docs. I couldn't get into the music at that point yet, but I warmed up to it a couple of years later and finally got into the band.
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Anyway, Wolfking wrote the best review of FU, it's in the Classic Metal thread. Well worth a read. Certainly more entertaining than the album.
:rollin I had forgotten about that.
Cheers guys.
I guess I don't need to add anything in here at this point. My feelings are known. :lol
Since you have so many posts, can you link it here or repost. I am very curious now.
There you go mate. Nothing much, just me posting some thoughts and opinions while listening to the album. Quite a few grammer errors too as I was getting angrier haha;
Okay, as I made it known I quite liked Cold and said that I would buy the album and see what we get, mainly for the guest spots. I also didn't mind a few songs from Tate's last solo cd. So, I received the album in the mails after I think spending 14 or 15 dollars on it. So I'm going to post a few thoughts on my initial first listen. You can call me stupid now, but hey. it's $15, Tate will probably need it.
Also, I turned off Headspace to listen to this.
Cold: Wow, coming straight from Headspace, this album really does sound like shit. It's demo quality, with cheap sounding guitars, Geoff sounds actually a bit drowned out due to the muddiness. The song is still okay. The thing is, this isn't Queensryche, and it doesn't sound like Queensryche. Also, I do like Kelly's guitar solo. Lukas Rossi writes this with Tate so I'm guessing most of the ideas here are from Lukas.
Also, the lyrics aren't in the booklet, which pisses me off a bit. I never read them, but I think at least the booklet should have relevent info and lyrics.
Dare: Pretty modern rock sorta of intro, and I'm not liking where it's going. Typical childish type chorus. "You wouldn't dare hurt me, cause you just might get hurt yourself." Fuck off Geoff, this song is hurting my ears at the moment and makes me want to hurt you. This one is written by Tate and Slater which says a lot.
Give It To You: What the hell is Geoff doing at the start, sounds like shit. This one is from Slate and Tate and Chris Cox, whoever that is. The verses are terrible, but the chorus isn't too bad, but really not enough to save the song. It's better than the last song. "How do you like me so far" Hmm......really Geoff. Robert Sarzo does an absolutely horrific guitar solo here, good lord, it's cringeworthy.
Slave: Nice heavy riff starts us off here, could be okay. Just looked at the credits, Tate and Slater, oh dear. Jesus, fucking awful chorus. Everything seems off time or slightly out of sync with each other. I don't know who Chris Cannella is but his solo was nothing special. Alright, but nothing special.
Okay, I'm actually starting to get a bit fucking angry now, I had a shit day at work and this isn't helping.
In the Hands of God: "1..... 2" What the fuck Geoff, what?? Okay, Lukas Rossi wrote this one aswell so let's see. Hmm....the atmosphere here is not too bad, but the chorus isn't really going anywhere. Ty Tabor adds a really nice melodic solo here which fits with the song really well. Better than the last three but that's not saying much.
Running Backwards: Now, Martin Irigoyen (whoever that is) adds to Slater and Tate song writing for dummies: Geoff in his gay lord rapping mode, oh dear with some terribly of key notes. The music for the chorus isn't too bad but Geoff's vocal melodies are shit and just all over the place. KK Downing adds some really nice shred but the recording of his solo sounds shit and is mixed so bad you can hardly hear it. It's like he did it in his home studio in 5 minutes and said, "yeah, that'll do." The solo however is really nice and great to hear KK on tape again.
Life Without You: Slater and Tate back at it again. This sounds okay at the start, and I like how they use the Midcrime type clean chords in the verses. Of course, Geoff ruins this totally, those vocals in the chorus are terrible. Fucking Brad Gillis does his best to save this shit with an excellent Gillis style shred fest which pricks the ears, but it ends to soon when you hear Tater again. "Life Without You" SHUT THE FUCK UP, this is so annoying, why would Gillis and Downing play on this shit!
Everything: Same writing team as Running Backwards here and I'm pretty over it. I gave Geoff the benefit of the doubt and tried to show him some love, but his shitting on me, or should I say spitting on me again. The intro riff here is not bad, pretty modern sounding, and I like the clean guitars in the verses, and Geoff tries hard to hold a melody. FUCKING SHIT CHORUS, and Geoff sounds like an out of tune dying cow! "We could have everything." Man, this is painful, really painful. Ty Tabor provides some nice guitar, he's trying to save it but Geoff singing over the top of him makes him invalid.
Fallen: I just don't care anymore. But Meniketti is on this one, so let's listen. Boring after the first minute. Wow, after 2 minutes this is just rubbish, Dave Meniketti actually was happy to play on this, that's quite depressing. As expected, absolute killer solo from Dave, but again, he can't save this rubbish. The outro solo however is incredible.
The Weight of the World: Oh Geoff, you sound fucking done bro, just give up and kill yourself please. Wow, just saw Chris Poland is going to do the solo on this, poor bastard. Geoff simply has insulted all these great guitar players, but one must think how stupid are they for playing on this, it's mind boggling. Okay, getting into the heavier section this isn't too bad, and Tate is actually trying to show a bit of real emotion and put in an effort here. The atmpshere in the middle is actually quite good. Beisdes Chris having an awful tone, he shreds this, incredible, love this guy's playing. He might have saved this song.
Okay, for Geoff to release this and call it Queensryche, is an absolute joke. I will give this another chance or two, but this album is a steaming pile of shit. And every guest is more of an idiot for being part of it. I gave Geoff the benefit of the doubt and paid for his album and he repays me with this fake bullshit. Fuck you Geoff, I'm done.
Oh shit, there's 4 covers I still have to listen to;
I Don't Believe In Love: Who the hell is this Martin guy that did the music on these, he should be shot. Wait, I just heard Tate first couple of lines, is this for real? Wow, this is beyond a trainwreck. Tate's fucking kidding us with this chorus right? Wow...........just.........wow......to release this is just.......wow.
The cover is even more funny after hearing the cd. FU Tate.
Empire: These programmed drums sound terrible, absolutely terrible. Why is he re-recording these, he sounds terrible, tired, emotionless and how about those backups before the chorus lol. And then the chours. :rollin
Jet City Woman: Jesus, those chorus sound a bit sharp don't they? These really are possibly the worst things ever recorded. Fuck, these vocals are just absymal, my god.
Silent Lucidity: Turned it off after a minute and put Headspace back on.
I seriously think Geoff is taking the piss out of us. I stuck with this guy over the last ten years, but this is just too much. I am looking forward to the real QR in June, I might buy about 10 copies.
I think I might throw my copy of FU at some clown walking down the street tomorrow for laughs.
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:lol
I forgot that Lukas Rossi was involved in that album. From winning Rock Star: Supernova (as if that's a fantastic place to start) to.....that.
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:lol
I forgot that Lukas Rossi was involved in that album. From winning Rock Star: Supernova (as if that's a fantastic place to start) to.....that.
That's what I always found so bizarre. Won that show which which sucked and lead to nothing and then shows up years later writing with Tate, WTF?! :lol
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I love this on the fly review. :tup
:biggrin: You used fuck eleven times and FU once, very in line with the record title. :biggrin:
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For anyone who still had any support for Tate, listen to this from FU . He charged money for this, and these rerecords were obviously an attempt to drag people in with something familiar :\
https://youtu.be/MZflrmwhwZs
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For anyone who still had any support for Tate, listen to this from FU . He charged money for this, and these rerecords were obviously an attempt to drag people in with something familiar :\
https://youtu.be/MZflrmwhwZs
If I'm not mistaken, they were (also) contractually required by Cleopatra records. That label had a history of releasing compilation albums, so they could have added the re-records as stipulation to Geoff's contract. You give us the re-recorded hit songs so we can pimp them on a bunch of compilation albums, and we'll put out your new album.
But yes, they are awful, half-assed renditions of the songs.
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If I'm not mistaken, they were (also) contractually required by Cleopatra records.
If I were in charge of Cleopatra records I would sue Geoff for not fulfilling his contract. No way these re-recorded versions could be used for something remotely successful.
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I think the era was really tough to stomach, but the nice thing for most QR fans is that the band found a vocalist that they could move forward with and save their careers. QR was nosediving, and La Torre's voice and how he spoke publicly in such an even-keeled manner really helped people re-invest time, thought, and money into checking them out. It was certainly a battle between Tate's version and the Wilton/Jackson/Rockenfield version.
Looking at it objectively, while La Torre-fronted QR was more popular with fans who were clued in to things, they also had trouble playing gigs, because Tate's version had the better booking agent. It was only as people saw Tate's version, and realized it wasn't the same band, that they went online and found out what went down. Then over the next year, you saw more and more people sway to the La Torre version, once they realized what went down, and most importantly, who was delivering the goods live.
When the two bands' respective records came out, it was a no-brainer. Tate-QR was deadpanned by the media, while LT-Queensryche was praised. So while they started slow, LT-QR won the public relations battle.
The legal battle was a lot closer than people realize, and it is good that it settled. I mean, it's all there in the documents, but there were some very key arguments on the Tate side that could have prevented LT-QR from winning. That's not to say what Tate's actions were in the right, but some of the finer points regarding band agreements and corporation and business law were in his favor. But Tate's attorneys were also not, IMO, as vested (heh) as LT-QR's was. Tom Osinski is a hell of a nice guy, but he's also a shrewd lawyer (and that is a compliment). But had it gone to court, it would have been a toss up what happened.
I'm glad it didn't, for both fan and personal-related reasons. But I think generally what happened was Tate knew he lost the public relations battle, and both sides were running out of money. So, Tate blinked first.
I do think he should have held out for more than he got in terms of rights to albums. I remember suggesting to Osinski to offer Tate the rights to everything post-HITNF and not Tribe (so, that means Q2k, MC II, American Soldier, Dedicated to Chaos) as part of a settlement offer. I figured if LT-QR was never gonna play that stuff, why not just dangle it in front of Tate and see if he'd bite. Particularly since OM II was a bit of a cash cow (remember, it recouped the money owed to the label in just a couple months, so all money from it goes back to the writers). They valued it all, but I'm not sure they offered it. In the end, Tate took money and the performance rights to both Mindcrime records instead.
Frankly, in retrospect, knowing the standing his legal argument had regarding the corporate agreement and voting, I think he should have pushed for more, but again, he blinked and they were able to settle. Everyone moved forward, and that's a good thing.
p.s. thanks for all the nice words regarding the write-ups. One last one for Wednesday. And Mladen, no worries on the whole speed thing. I didn't take offense or anything. I did speed them up these last couple. I just wanted to be done with it. :)
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I YouTube'd Fallen just now because I watned to revisit Meniketti's solo. I'm pretty sure I heard a couple of songs back when the album came out, but don't recall ANY of it whatsoever. After that, I just let it go as it went into a FU playlist loop. So I've heard a few of the songs now with "fresh" ears, and this album has a few BIG hurdles for me:
1. It carries the stigma of what was going on between Geoff and the band. That is too big for me to get over and push out of my mind when listening to this. For those who say they don't care about band drama and how it should be "ONLY about the music," you have a right to feel that way. Often, that's where I come down on a lot of albums. But there is a line for me, and when that line gets crossed where I can no longer palate the artist because of his/her behavior, that hinders my enjoyment of the music. It goes without saying that that is the case with this album. That has little or nothing to do with the music itself, but that's a problem for me, and it is a BIG one. Geoff's conduct leading up to this, and even his conduct on this project (the album title, calling it "Queensryche," etc.) seriously taint the entire project for me.
2. The stigma of outside writers. This is another one I can get past to a certain extent. But it depends. The songs REALLY have to be there. American Soldier was one of those albums where I could suspend the outside writer stigma and just enjoy some really enjoyable songs. But where the songs are weaker, it's harder to ignore. Not impossible. But harder. It's kind of like Tarja in her solo band. Her voice in Nightwish was SO iconic that it's hard to separate her voice from Tuomas' music and have her sound credible. And to compound the issue, rather than form a stable band where she sits down with them and writes the music, there is a LOT of work done by outside writers and a revolving door of musicians. So it feels a lot less like a collaborative band effort than a solo artist with limited creative ability having others do a lot of the creative work for them, which makes it feel less authentic to me.
3. The vocals. Geoff's voice is just terrible. It is. There are a few singers out there who have burned out their voices where it actually adds color and I am fine with it. Doug Pinnick and Stevie Nicks come to mind. Neither sound like they did when they started out. They both have voices that sound rough and tired. But it works. It sounds genuine. And it sounds good. With Geoff, it sounds strained and awful. And it's a shame because I actually like a lot of the instrumentation that I am hearing. And even a lot of the vocal melodies themselves (if they were sung properly) are decent and fit the songs. But Geoff's singing is the weak link. Again. I just don't think I can listen to his voice anymore and what it has become. This is by far the most glaring weakness in this album. Even if I could get over point #1, this alone would absolutely kill the album for me. And there are too many fantastic singers out there for me to waste my time on this and try to give myself reasons to like it.
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Haven't had time to read all the lawsuit but I think Queensryche got lucky in having to just resign the Mindcrime rights. One album has been played in full over and over and the other one nobody really cares for... it's like MP walked away from DT with just the rights to play in full SFAM and the 12 Steps Suite.
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and also mention how tough it had to have been to be somewhat in the middle of all of that at the time, not only as still loyal fans, but also as a webmaster. Appreciate all that you do and don't write out of a code of honor for these troubling times.
I appreciate that. The webmaster part wasn't any more difficult than what bosk1 goes through here. But I made some mistakes in what I said publicly as well back then. I was gung-ho on support LT-fronted QR, and was hellbent on making sure people saw the depths of the dysfunction. In retrospect, if I had to do it all over again, I still would have put the court documents out there, but I wouldn't have gotten so personally involved on my old forum and written about it as much as I did. That's why with these write-ups, while I inject my opinion a bit, I try to keep it fairly neutral and avoid adding too much of the personal stuff. There's no need to go there.
I remember at the time in summer 2012, a couple of folks that used to be very tight with QR reached out to me and warned me about a few things that they had done in the past with QR that they regretted. And while I didn't dismiss that outright, I wasn't all that worried. Well, they were right (I am being purposefully vague here), and what happened to them, happened to me. They told me I'd probably attract a couple of trolls and stalkers as well. They were dead on. For example, even though my Queensryche forum has been fully closed and deleted for nine months, according to friends that keep tabs on this stuff, a few folks still literally follow me around the Internet (including here) and clip and save what I say to libel and insult me. :lol :lol
But as I said those folks who were close to the band that reached out to me -- they were dead on, and I should have listened to them.
Anyway, we wrap up on Wednesday with two really good albums from TLT-fronted QR. Have a great weekend everyone!
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The thing about the lawsuit is basically this, as I understand it (and I'm not claiming to be an expert in all facets of it; and I'm boiling it down to its essence rather than going through all the different nuances and permutations of things to just give the 30,000 foot view of things):
Geoff could potentially have "won" in the sense that the way the agreements were written in the first place was a problem, and they were never re-done when Chris DeGarmo left. I think it was something along the lines of, for certain types of decisions, it took a supermajority of 4 out of the 5 voting members to pass something. Obviously, in practice, when you then only have 4 voting members because one has left permanently and presumably terminated his voting rights, you can never have "X out of 5" because there aren't 5. So logic and equity would dictate that it becomes "3 out of 4." But they never amended their corporate documents. So the technicality of needing 4 votes technically still existed. This would have been a potential problem for the band if the lawsuit had gone the distance. It's illogical in practice. But there is a VERY real potential that it could easily have gone down where a judge said, "Sorry, Michael, Scott, and Ed, but your decision to terminate Mr. Tate is invalid because you need 4 votes to do that, and you only had 3." Compound that with the screwy result of the Judge already entering the screwy interim ruling (that, IMO, was legally incorrect) that Tate was entitled to use the Queensryche name in the mean time. So, yeah, there was serious potential risk in taking it the distance.
But even aside from the fact that both sides realized they were losing money just by the continuing litigation, here is why I think Tate "blinked" and agreed to resolve it:
There was little upside to him in "winning" anyway, other than perhaps increased bargaining leverage. The reason is, "winning" would not have given him what he wanted in terms of being able to make the decisions he would have wanted to make either. It just would have meant that his firing wasn't valid and he was still part of the band. What would that get him? He could effectively hold the band hostage by still being a voting member and not consenting to ANYTHING. But how does that really help him? He couldn't have made them reinstate Susan. He couldn't have made them sell him the rights to Mindcrime. He would have been a minority interest, and one that everyone else in the band was hostile to. It would have simply put everyone in stalemate mode. And that's all fine if his sole goal was to hurt and punish the band. But he could not survive financially just be choking out Queensryche. He needed something so he could move on financially. Settling was really his only practical option.
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In the MP thread I was one of those who said that they can separate the music from the musician's behaviour. And I think this could also be true in regards of FU. But there are instances where I chose not to. FU could have been the best record ever made and I wouldn't have bothered simply because of Tate's douchbaggery.
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I definitely want to take the time to read through the court documents, to get the whole story as much as possible.
Besides that i'm kinda shocked some people actually are taking the time or took the time to listen to FU. For what Tate had been doing to the band for years, why would you waste your time to listen to a record that was NOT Queensryche ? Especially with knowing how bad Tate sounded on the last few releases. It was an easy No-Brainer for me.
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^
There are many sadists in the world. ;)
There's always rubberneckers when there are accidents...... and perverse thrill seekers for expected train wrecks who have tough stomachs (and ears).
And there's the faithful, the Stepfords, or the 'hopefuls' (gawd, I hope this isn't the rubbish I'm expecting, maybe there's one good tune in the bunch). We've all experienced that with some of the artists we follow(ed).
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I definitely want to take the time to read through the court documents, to get the whole story as much as possible.
Besides that i'm kinda shocked some people actually are taking the time or took the time to listen to FU. For what Tate had been doing to the band for years, why would you waste your time to listen to a record that was NOT Queensryche ? Especially with knowing how bad Tate sounded on the last few releases. It was an easy No-Brainer for me.
Speaking for myself, curiosity made me give it a single spin on youtube at the time that it was released. I didn't expect to find anything listenable, and with the exception of a couple of rare moments I didn't find anything at all. You never really know for sure until you go ahead and do it. In this case, once was enough for me.
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These ears have never heard F.U.
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These ears have never heard F.U.
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder312/500x/53214312/kermit-the-frog-ok-fuck-you-hows-that.jpg)
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For anyone who still had any support for Tate, listen to this from FU . He charged money for this, and these rerecords were obviously an attempt to drag people in with something familiar :\
https://youtu.be/MZflrmwhwZs
Holy fuck what is this?!?!?! This sounds like a drunk dude performing karaoke on a Wednesday night in front of 3 people and a midget at a dive bar.
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Question: What the hell happened to Tate's voice? Is it just age? I've heard many older singer and while they don't have the range they at least had some range.
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Question: What the hell happened to Tate's voice? Is it just age? I've heard many older singer and while they don't have the range they at least had some range.
It's pretty much inevitable to lose some range when you get older. However Tate lost more than that. He lost control of the tone and intonation of his voice (though he's made a pretty nice comeback with the Avantasia stuff).
There are always people who defy these "rules" of age - such as Glenn Hughes.
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Have to agree with Bosk1 and others on how Tates voice has deteriated. It's very painful to watch this thread progress. If you'd go back to the start of this discography-thread and read the comments on his voice from the EP onwards, it's just a crying shame. I guess it's to be expected when singers grow older, but goddamn. If you listen to Eddie Vedder, Chris Cornell (rest his soul) and, even, Bowie, you hear voices that grow old gracefully. His has just gone to shit. And as a singer, as much as I can sympathize, it's just awful to watch unfold. This guy was once one of my vocal heroes.
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Maybe in recent times he realized that and took care of himself. I stumbled upon YouTube on some videos of his acoustic solo tour, he looked in great shape, handling perfectly well the stage with undeniable charisma, and looked relaxed and confident. The re-recordings on FU were painful to listen to however, I checked them out of curiosity and they were so bad.
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It's not just age. It's also abuse (drinking, smoking, not bothering to warm up).
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These ears have never heard F.U.
You owe it to them to keep this up
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These ears have never heard F.U.
You owe it to them to keep this up
Refusing to listen to F.U. shall, henceforth, be known as viagra for the ears!
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Fell behind on this big time, I was actually really interested in this stretch of the band's history so I'm spending the day catching up.
American Soldier - I remember a lot of buzz around this when it came out, there were even ads on VH1 Classic for it and I believe Geoff Tate appeared on That Metal Show before it came out. I never checked out the album but the concept seemed interesting. On first listen, it's having a similar impact that Tribe did. Pretty good, nothing too great but among the better things they've done since Promised Land. It's not better than Mindcrime II, but it sounds more like Queensryche.
The theme really gives this album a major boost. Tate is a lot like Roger Waters, the quality of his work is largely going to depend on how clear the lyrical vision is. No matter how lopsided the perspective of American Soldier may be, it was clearly an idea he was passionate about and followed through on. The album has a great atmosphere and is the most focused thing they've done in a long time. It's much more genuine than Mindcrime II, even if the songs aren't as good.
The duet between Geoff and daughter is not good.
Thanks for the insight on how accurate the portrayals on the album are, Bosk.
I don't think this will ever be part of my musical rotation, there's too much great music out there for me to have much time for middle of the road Queensryche. That being said, I'd be more likely to revisit this album than anything since Promised Land.
Cabaret Tour/Dedicated To Chaos: I remember when the cabaret tour was announced. It was such a joke, it seemed they were finally starting to be a respectable band again with American Soldier and they threw it away just a year later. The involvement of Tate's family, including his daughter, just seemed kind of creepy.
My memory of the timing is fuzzy, but I recall actually being kind of excited for Dedicated To Chaos. I can't remember if it was despite the cabaret tour or if stuff started coming out about the album beforehand, but I do remember the Rage For Order-meets-Empire comment. Besides, American Soldier was a solid effort by most accounts, there was definitely room for further improvements. That feeling went away as soon as the Wot We Do video with clips from the tour came out. So bad.
The album is just a mess. Very similar to Q2K but worse. There are promising moments sure, but everything about it was just wrong for the band. I actually did listen to it because of all the controversy it generated. Easily the most ridiculed album in rock/metal circles that year. It brought the band publicity, but none of it was good. Not much more to say on that.
Fun fact: Wot We Do was the winner of the Maidenfans Worst Song Ever Survivor.
On a related note, I remember there was an interview with Janick Gers around the same time where he made a comment about not wanting Maiden to be a cabaret act. Of course Blabbermouth picked up the story and ran it as a swipe at Queensryche. Janick has used the term "cabaret act" before Queensryche did their thing and has used it again since, I really don't think it was directed at them. Besides, Janick was using the term to refer to bands who put on the same show and setlist every tour. Lets face it, Cabaret tour was anything but that.
Not going to bother with FU. It was yet another facepalm moment. That that point, things were just sad. The video rant contest seemed like Tate was trying too hard to seem unfazed by the criticism. I've heard it's not too bad, but there's plenty of music out there that wasn't released to spite some former band members.
Rising West was an exciting time though. I remember being blown away by the clips on Youtube.
Loved all these writeups, Samsara. Looking forward to the next entry. I listened to the self titled but not Condition Human, been holding off for this thread.
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I was once a big Queensryche fan, but really started losing interest around Tribe (I was holding on during HITNF and Q2K), and things just kept going downhill year after year. There were a few bright moments here and there - I didn't care for American Solider much but loved that they played almost all of Rage for Order during that tour. Otherwise, it wasn't fun to witness the decline, and then the debacle of the cabaret tour and eventually the spitting incident, etc... it was soooo bad. I suppose on the plus side, it made me want to see the remaining members of QR do well, and once the split happened I really hoped for the best for them and Todd LaTorre. I finally caught them live last year, and Todd sounded very strong. Not perfect, but really quite good. The guitar playing was kinda shoddy unfortunately, and I've since heard from others that that's kinda just how it is these days, and Michael Wilton just seems to get by during the shows.
Maybe I should go back and read some of this thread and revisit the old stuff. Everything up to (and including) Promised Land was great for me.
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These ears have never heard F.U.
That's probably for the best. And your ears don't deserved to get raped, but at the same time, it's actually an intriguing listen just to hear how much the mighty Tate has fallen.
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These ears have never heard F.U.
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder312/500x/53214312/kermit-the-frog-ok-fuck-you-hows-that.jpg)
Seriously Tim. I never listened to this album.
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Neither have I.
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What I read here about it turned me off.
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I'll listen to it this week, just because I would be bothered by having a Queensryche album out there that I decided to skip. Hopefully that's not OCD. :lol
Dedicated to chaos is a highly experimental, adventurous album. It's just that the waters the band (Geoff and his co-workers) ventured into aren't a place that Queensryche fans would find enjoyable and comfortable. Wot we do and Got me bad are probably my least favorite songs by the band. The heavier tracks like Retail therapy and Hot spot junkie had the potential to be fantastic, but were dragged down by the lyrical context. It's hard to really enjoy a song that delivers lines about the pictures on YouTube, there's a certain imagery that ruined some of the songs for me. I didn't think a single song was really great. Oh well.
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I finally caught them live last year, and Todd sounded very strong. Not perfect, but really quite good. The guitar playing was kinda shoddy unfortunately, and I've since heard from others that that's kinda just how it is these days, and Michael Wilton just seems to get by during the shows.
Wow, really? I think you either must have gotten a bad show, or something was off. From everything I have seen and heard, the guitar playing has been great. Wilton is solid, and as I have mentioned already, Parker is a tremendous workhorse and puts in the time and effort to make his stuff sound good. My ONLY complaint in the guitar department is that Wilton has increasingly taken on more of DeGarmo's solos to the point where he now doesn't let Parker solo on anything from the DeGarmo era anymore (unless it is a dual solo), and I think that's a shame because (1) Parker has done his homework on how to play those songs properly and make them sound as close as possible to Chris' originals, and (2) I think they just sound better with Whip playing is own part.
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Not the first time I have heard that, actually. I haven't seen it myself, as I haven't gone to a QR show since Dec. 2013. However, they are not as tight musically as they were in years past. And that's pretty easily explainable:
1. Casey Grillo on drums -- dude is a great drummer, but nowhere near the same feel as Scott. He also adds some different fills and such, and his timing just isn't as familiar as what we all know.
2. Lack of rehearsal -- Queensryche's "touring" these days (to be covered in the next entry a bit) is generally fly-in dates to play festivals and a couple of sporadic gigs, and then fly home again. That's why the set hasn't really changed, except for a song or two. They rehearsal individually, and then put it together a day or two beforehand and run it through soundcheck. When you're not touring day after day, you don't build up that chemistry and continuity with what you are playing. So, the performances are bound to be a little looser, with a chance for more errors.
Generally speaking most people wouldn't notice it, unless you are a hardcore, or if you're musically inclined. But most of the crowds these days are there to just rock out and relive the classic tunes. So, as long as the drinks are around, and the music is playing, the quality of the performance probably escapes them. The band knows that. So, my guess is, not a lot of effort gets put into show prep when they do these fly-in weekend things.
I think it's probably different when they are out on the road properly, which for Condition Human happened three times -- first US leg, Europe, second US leg. But all this year it has been these fly-in dates and sporadic stuff.
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Ah, that makes sense. When I saw them, it was part of the more formal tour for CH, so they were playing regular dates. They also still had Scott and not Casey, so there wasn't that issue. I can see how having a different drummer and not having the rehearsal time would loosen things up a bit.
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I actually saw them with Scott, not Casey, and didn't have any issues with the drumming. I may well not have any with Casey either; I'm not a drummer and probably don't notice a lot of little things being off at a show. I'm not a guitar player either, and there have been times when guitar player friends have picked up on things and I'll think "sounded fine to me." When I saw them last year, it was enough for me to notice. Something just didn't sound right. The solos were kinda bad, but even besides that, it just didn't have that QR guitar sound. A friend who is a QR fanatic said he's noticed this for a while, but especially the last three years. Others kind of jumped in to agree with him. I only saw them that one time last year - before that it had been quite a long time.
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With Michael playing Chris' solos, there are differences for sure. But I know you're not talking about JUST the solos, but the guitars, overall.
But in general, I agree, the tightness of the entire band hasn't quite been there for a long time. Again, I'm assuming the reason is the way they've been touring since the split with Tate. They don't spend a lot of time rehearsing. Back in the day, the original lineup rehearsed for weeks before doing a tour. Even as recently as American Soldier, they had three or four dress rehearsals to get the set tight.
Outside of the five days before Rising West, when they played the set every night to get ready, I'm not sure they've really put a lot of preparation in. Everything is synched to the video, and they just wing it. Some guys more than others practice. I do know that as recently as Dec. 2013, Parker continued with his daily regiment of playing through the set on headphones before each gig. He put in a lot of work.
But I agree, things don't quite sound up to par. But then again, it's a different band, particularly in 2017, when only two of the original guys are playing live.
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Samsara, I have to say big THANK YOU for that thread. Great write-ups, so many backstage informations presented in perfect way. :hefdaddy
Believe or not, I've read everything in this thread, maybe I wasn't so active because of my poor english which could be a problem when You want to share Your feelings about music in a clear way. I'ts sad that this thread is closely to an end, I'm unpatiently waiting for Your final write-up down here. Thank You!!!
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Wait, Scott doesn't play drums in Queensryche anymore? Is there an important update with regards to that coming up in the next write-up? Or does he have to miss some dates this year for personal, family related reasons or something?
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Wait, Scott doesn't play drums in Queensryche anymore? Is there an important update with regards to that coming up in the next write-up? Or does he have to miss some dates this year for personal, family related reasons or something?
His wife had a child a few months back. He's busy being a dad.
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Wait, Scott doesn't play drums in Queensryche anymore? Is there an important update with regards to that coming up in the next write-up? Or does he have to miss some dates this year for personal, family related reasons or something?
Mindflux basically explained it. But according to the band, it is a temporary hiatus from touring so he can spend time with his son, Rockson. Yes, his kid's name is Rockson Rockenfield.
Casey Grillo has been on drums since...I want to say March. I am assuming he will continue to play with them through the end of the year.
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Next year Kamelot are on tour as well, so I suppose Casey will "go back home".
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Oh, I seem to recall hearing about that news a while ago now. Somehow it completely slipped my mind.
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3) Wilton was informed of an alleged plan of the Tates to have the band do a 25th Anniversary tour of Operation: Mindcrime in 2013, and when it concluded, Tate would walk away from Queensryche, leaving them without a singer.
This is the first time I've heard about this. Is this in the lawsuit documents?
I recall Frequency unknown was severely criticized upon release. It will get several listens from me next week, though, but I'm still digesting Dedicated to chaos. This album really is an oddity, everything about it is so strange.
I don't believe the here say of this has ever been corroborated by anyone in either camp. To me it sounds like B.S. because it wouldn't have made any sense for Tate to do a tour and then walk away and quit the band, when the guys ,damn near entire family was on the band's payroll at this time. So I would find that hard to comprehend. The whole family was going to split and give up that gravy train, doubtful to say the least. In fact later when they did fire Susan, Tate went postal, so yeah I doubt that plan was in the cards.
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Note the word "alleged." If you need a definition:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alleged
asserted to be true or to exist
So, whether the ALLEGED plan was in fact true and going to happen is irrelevant. What was relevant and not hearsay, was that Wilton was told of the ALLEGED plan, which further spurred along whatever decisions they were all contemplating at the time.
In regard to the "plan" being corroborated, if it was true, it serves no purpose for Tate to admit it, nor the band to talk about it. If it wasn't true, the same applies. The key point was that it was something told to someone who knew Wilton, and that person relayed the info on the alleged plan to Wilton, to do with as he felt appropriate, with the caveat that it might not be true, but worth looking into.
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The rumor I had heard around this was that Tate planned to tour Mindcrime and then refuse to do anything after that. No more albums, no more tours. He wouldn't quit the band, but he wouldn't do anything with them either, essentially holding them hostage, and forcing them to hopefully walk away and leave him and his family to do with QR as they saw fit.
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The rumor I had heard around this was that Tate planned to tour Mindcrime and then refuse to do anything after that. No more albums, no more tours. He wouldn't quit the band, but he wouldn't do anything with them either, essentially holding them hostage, and forcing them to hopefully walk away and leave him and his family to do with QR as they saw fit.
Yes, that's what I am referring to. When I said "walk away from Queensryche," that's what I was referring to. Walking away from doing anything as Queensryche. Not quitting the band. But just walking away from all of them to do his own thing, leaving them without a singer.
Had all of that actually happened, I imagine there would have been some legalities either way.
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Had all of that actually happened, I imagine there would have been some legalities either way.
I sort of wish they had gone with "RISING WEST" and left the Queensryche name out of it. But I can imagine the reason they didn't go that avenue was less straight forward than just moving on.. the name had a history and they didn't want Tate to have the name, either.
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Had all of that actually happened, I imagine there would have been some legalities either way.
I sort of wish they had gone with "RISING WEST" and left the Queensryche name out of it. But I can imagine the reason they didn't go that avenue was less straight forward than just moving on.. the name had a history and they didn't want Tate to have the name, either.
Well, it likely had more to do with money. "Rising West" didn't really resonate with promoters. "Queensryche" did. That's why they went there. And at the end of the day, you always follow the money to find the answers to some of these "why" questions.
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Queensryche (self-titled) (2013)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/19/Queensryche_with_Todd_La_Torre_-_Queensr%C3%BFche_2013.jpg)
Lead vocals: Todd La Torre
Guitars: Michael Wilton
Guitars: Parker Lundgren
Bass: Eddie Jackson
Drums: Scott Rockenfield
The version of Queensryche that consisted of three original members of the band released their own new album in June 2013. Self-titled, and featuring Queensryche's distinctive tri-ryche symbol prominently on the cover, the album dropped on June 25, 2013 in the U.S., debuting at #23 on the Billboard chart.
Unlike Tate's Frequency Unknown, which relied on modern heavy metal riffing, the self-titled Queensryche album harkened back to the band's past melodic hard rock/metal style, being described as a bit of a Empire-meets-Operation: Mindcrime vibe, updated for 2013. The record was an unquestionable success, both with the critics and fans.
Featuring the lead track, “Redemption,” the album's emphasis on melody, big choruses and careful attention to that fine balance of commercial appeal and thought-provoking heavy rock was quickly embraced by both hardcore fans and casual followers of the group. For lack of a better term, the record sounded “more like Queensryche” in comparison to Frequency Unknown, giving Jackson-Rockenfield-Wilton an advantage in their ongoing public posturing feud with Tate, as their legal battle continued.
The Music
As mentioned earlier, the 2013 self-titled album is very much styled after Empire and Operation: Mindcrime. For example, “In This Light” is a pseudo ballad very much in the same vein as “Another Rainy Night (Without You)” off of Empire. “Vindication” is a bold statement and calls back in vibe a bit to “The Needle Lies” off of Operation: Mindcrime.
The record also has good drama. It off with the cinematic instrumental cut “X2,” which bleeds into a dark mid-tempo opener in “Where Dreams Go to Die.” The track is actually Parker Lundgren's first writing credit as a member of Queensryche. Other highlights include the scorcher “Don't Look Back,” which showcases La Torre's high range, and the first proper single, “Fallout,” which is a bit of a modern hard rock cut with a killer guitar solo by Wilton. Pamela Moore also makes an appearance singing on the single “A World Without.”
A video was put together to highlight a few songs. “Redemption” was one of the videos. “Spore,” “Midnight Lullaby,” and “A World Without” were combined into a long-form video titled “Ad Lucem.” The piece illustrated the three tracks as a connected story.
"Ad Lucem" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_34YZaER70
The self-titled album isn't without its flaws, however. As discussed at length on various message boards and social media platforms, it is dreadfully short, clocking in at just over 35 minutes. Like Tate and Frequency Unknown, Jackson-Rockenfield-Wilton recognized the necessity of having new music out in the market during their legal battle, and quickly put together a slate of songs. But while some were clearly complete, others are obviously not as fleshed-out and worked over as they likely should have been. This also gave the record a simplistic feel to a degree, as many of the songs lack bridges and more progressive song structures that classic Queensryhe was known for.
Songwriting
The self-titled record was written entirely by the band, with no outside writers (unlike Unlike Operation: Mindcrime II, American Soldier, and Dedicated to Chaos). The credits for the self-titled release (or Queensryche 2013, whichever you prefer) are openly published and accurate.
There are some writing tidbits that most people may not know, however. For example, “Don't Look Back,” which was the first song Wilton and La Torre wrote together, actually features a guitar solo written by Parker Lundgren (who writes solos isn't included in the credits). Wilton, however, wrote the solo for “Fallout,” even though he did not write the song itself.
On “Open Road,” La Torre composed the track, including a guitar solo. Wilton worked on and altered the arrangement, and changed the solo. However, he kept – but re-recorded – La Torre's original solo as the outro solo to the song.
Scott Rockenfield and Eddie Jackson were also heavily involved in the songwriting for the album. For Rockenfield, being credited on nine of 11 tracks was the most writing he had ever contributed to any Queensryche record. All five members collaborated together on every song, from the initial ideas to final arrangement and lyrics. Speaking of lyrics, I believe Todd La Torre remarked that “Vindication” featured lyrics from Rockenfield. Overall, the lyrics on the record deal with a variety of subjects, but many have an obvious call-out to overcoming adversity in various forms.
Production and Mixing
Queensryche brought in James “Jimbo” Barton, one of their classic era producers and engineers to record and mix the album. As a result, the record has a familiar depth and power to it that had been missing on Queensryche albums post-Promised Land (the record Barton last worked on with them). It also served as a public relations stunt, as Jackson-Rockenfield-Wilton now had their classic producer and “Sister Mary” Pamela Moore both working with them on an album.
Despite the positives of Barton's work and the overall sound of the record, the mix was criticized a bit. Fans noticed the the album was red-lined when the volume was turned up, resulting in some cracking and distortion. Typically, this is due to the mastering of an album. Tom Baker did the mastering on this release, but denied causing the issue, claiming Barton mix was the problem. To-date, it has not been resolved.
Support and Promotion
Queensryche played a special album release show at the Crocodile in Seattle (where many of Seattle's grunge acts rose to fame) on June 26, 2013. It featured a short set, with the performance of “Where Dreams Go to Die,” and “Fallout” from the album. However, it also marked the first time Pamela Moore sang her part as Sister Mary on Suite Sister Mary with Todd La Torre.
Unfortunately, the event was also marked by some shady activities by some members of the Tate-fronted Queensryche lineup. Jason Ames (Susan Tate's ex-husband) and Kelly Gray came down to the release show with fliers for a Tate-Queensryche show happening the following week, engaging in shouting matches with some fans outside the venue.
Editor's Note: I was there, watching it happen from the bar. Honestly, it felt like a couple of dumb high school jocks trying to intimidate people. Not one of their finer moments.
In regard to a tour, however, Queensryche somewhat disappointed. No proper tour was booked for the United States, with the band opting to do a lot of fly-in dates to various markets, and short two-week stretches. This was likely do to Tate having the upper hand in booking agents, and saturating various markets with his version of the band. In Europe, the band did do a headline tour that lasted for a few weeks.
La Torre also struggled somewhat as he got his tour legs and voice under him. Never a full-time singer (he was a drummer, and as Crimson Glory's singer, he only did festivals and a couple of short tours), the demands on La Torre were high. To La Torre's credit, he fought through difficulties (major sinus issues and colds) and improved, even as his clean range started to ebb a bit.
Vocal Comparison
I think it is important to be very fair to Todd La Torre when it comes to vocals. First, his live performances were being compared to prime era Geoff Tate's STUDIO performances. Given Tate's legendary status, particularly over the first decade of his career, it was completely unfair to try and draw those comparisons – but we all did. La Torre knew that, and handled it well, publicly.
From a purely singing perspective, Todd and Geoff are completely different, even if some of their tonal qualities in their upper registers are similar. Tate, back in his prime, was a classically trained operatic tenor with incredible range and power. His voice has a fullness to it that makes anything in his mid-range sound “warmer” and powerful. La Torre's voice is naturally thinner than Tate's, however, so as a result, while he hits a lot of high notes from the EP-Rage for Order, he sounds a bit weaker on the mid-range stuff from Empire through Promised Land, and some of Operation: Mindcrime. It's just the natural differences in their voices. Not much TLT can do about that.
Todd also prefers a more Dickinson-like delivery, where the high notes are a bit gritty, as opposed to Tate's more operatic approach. So, while even Tate himself has said it was uncanny to hear how similar his and La Torre's voices are, when you listen intently, the major differences become quite noticeable. The truth is, they both have very different strengths and weaknesses.
Set List Debates
In addition, Queensryche did not perform a lot of its new material at these shows following the self-titled album's release. While “Where Dreams Go to Die” was a staple in the set, the band focused more on the “Return to History” tour songs from the back catalog in order to showcase Todd's ability to sing the old songs in the original key.
Ultimately, Queensryche ended up performing most of its 2013 album live, but it was often just one or two songs in what was becoming a typical 80-85-minute headline set (which was also a dramatic downturn from the Tate-fronted years through American Soldier where new albums were extensively highlighted). Although I don't have statistics to back it up, Queensryche primarily performed Where Dreams Go to Die, A World Without, and Fallout. Usually one or two of those three cuts.
Vindication, and Redemption were played extremely sporadically (just a few times each live since the album's release to-date), and Spore was performed just slightly more. In This Light was not played on the self-titled record's tour cycle, although it was featured on the band's 2016 tour quite extensively. To my knowledge, “Don't Look Back” and “Open Road” have never been performed.
Legal Wrap-Up and Continued Touring
In summer 2014, Jackson-Rockenfield-Wilton settled their lawsuit with Geoff Tate. As mentioned earlier, the former group got the name “Queensryche” in exchange for an undisclosed monetary sum, and Tate retaining the exclusive right to perform the Operation: Mindcrime and Operation: Mindcrime II albums in sequence, completely, from front-to-back.
Once the settlement was reached, Queensryche began touring more throughout the remainder of 2014, and set to work on a new record...
Samsara's top tracks from Queensryche (2013): Redemption, Fallout, Don't Look Back, Spore
Condition Human (2015)
(https://loudwire.com/files/2015/10/queensrycheconditioncd-300x300.jpg)
Vocals – Todd La Torre
Guitars – Michael Wilton
Guitars – Parker Lundgren
Bass – Eddie Jackson
Drums – Scott Rockenfield
After spending 2013 and 2014 on the road, Queensryche spent a good part of early 2015 (in-between various fly-in dates around the country) writing and working on new material for what would become Condition Human. Released on Oct. 2, 2015, the record builds on the template established with the self-titled album of 2013.
Almost an hour-long, Queensryche addressed the minor criticisms from fans, writing songs that were longer and slightly more complex. The resulting 12 tracks (15 if you count the b-sides) were received positively by critics and fans, and Condition Human was seen as validation that Queensryche made the right choice in moving on from former singer Geoff Tate.
As with the self-titled record, Condition Human features a wide variety of styles, from ripping heavy metal anthems to mid-tempo moody epics and a couple of power ballads thrown in for good measure. Generally, Condition Human is best described as where Queensryche might have gone after the original Operation: Mindcrime, had they not opted for a warmer tone and more polished direction with Empire.
La Torre's influences and vocal preferences bleed through a bit more on Condition Human, as he establishes his own voice on the record. He doesn't sing quite as clean, working in some more aggressive vocals, reminiscent of Ray Alder's early performances on Fates Warning's No Exit and Perfect Symmetry. The album also is noticeably darker than the previous record.
Writing and Production
Condition Human was written generally in the same manner as the self-titled release in 2013. The band shared ideas with one another, fleshed them out, and worked as a team. Eddie Jackson's contributions increased a bit, whereas Scott Rockenfield's decreased slightly. But in general, the songwriting formula remained the same. La Torre and Jackson handled much of the lyrics on Condition Human.
The biggest change was behind the glass – Queensryche decided to go with Chris “Zeuss” Harris to record and mix their record instead of James “Jimbo” Barton. The mix of each of the La Torre-fronted records sounds different, which I suppose can be attributed to the change production change. The red-lining issues of the self-titled album were also addressed with Condition Human.
A few singles and spotlighted tracks were released from Condition Human. These were Arrow of Time, Eye9, Guardian, Hellfire, and Bulletproof. Videos were also made for a few of the songs. The b-sides of the records are titled Mercury Rising, 46° North, and Espiritu Muerto (translates to “Dead Spirit”).
Reception
Condition Human was praised thoroughly by both critics and fans as a nice step forward from the self-titled record, and another move helping re-establish Queensryche as a prominent creative force in hard rock.
One criticism I have seen of the record have mentioned that the title track leans too heavily on other “epic” cuts of Queensryche's past, specifically, “Suite Sister Mary” and “Roads to Madness.” That said, both La Torre-fronted Queensryche records do this to a degree. I believe most people just assume it is the band trying to re-affirm its style after so many years of constant change. The other criticism I've seen mentioned more frequently of Condition Human is that its songs lack hooks, which in retrospect, may be an accurate statement, albeit a subjective one.
Touring
Over the past several years, touring had changed for Queensryche. Instead of lengthy, traditional headline tours, Queensryche adopted (both out of necessity and desire) a more financially practical approach. They played two headline tour legs in the United States in support of Condition Human, both of which lasted approximately six weeks. The first was at the beginning of 2016, and the second was at the latter end of 2016 with Armored Saint as direct support.
But in-between, they focused on weekend fly-in gigs at casinos, local festivals and other small venues. The reason for this (which in truth, Queensryche began doing heavily in 2012 after the split) is that it simply makes more sense, financially. By relying on rented gear, the band can fly anywhere for a weekend, play a show or two, get put up in casino/resort lodging, and fly home, making way more money than they would these days on a lengthy club tour as headliners. Generally speaking, Queensryche makes good profit on these fly-in dates, whereas they simply break even (maybe) doing their own traditional headline tours. They still did some of those headline runs (as mentioned above, twice), but on a limited basis.
Queensryche also played Europe, both festivals (a very popular appearance at Wacken), and a run of headline dates. They also opened for the Scorpions, both at a residency in Las Vegas, and on the road. Simply put, although bands such as Dream Theater, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and a host of others could afford to do traditional headline treks, Queensryche opted for an approach used by a lot of 1980s acts these days that enable those bands to stay viable.
Samsara's top tracks from Condition Human: Hellfire, Eye9, Condition Human
Post-Condition Human
Following the Condition Human tour, 2017 found Queensryche continuing to perform many fly-in dates throughout the year. Scott Rockenfield took most of 2017 (to-date) off to be at home with his newborn son. Casey Grillo of Kamelot has filled in for Rockenfield on drums for most of the year, and as of September, stil is.
On an interesting note, while doing a festival in Europe, Queensryche ran into Geoff Tate, who was at the same festival performing with Avantasia. Five years after the Brazil Incident, and three years after settling, Tate, Wilton, and Jackson met backstage, and according to Tate, caught up and shook hands. Whether that leads to Tate reuniting with Queensryche is anybody's guess.
It has been reported that Queensryche also has 10-12 songs written for a new record, which the band is going to record again with Chris “Zeuss” Harris this fall and into the new year, with 2018 earmarked for a release.
Final Thoughts
Thank you for allowing me to create this thread and tell the history of Queensryche. It has been great to see all the contributions to this discussion and commentary on the band. It made doing the write-ups a lot of fun. For most fans' tastes and wants at this stage of the game, I think Queensryche is in good hands with its current lineup featuring La Torre on vocals. The TLT-fronted group's best album is likely ahead of them, and as the years tick by, I encourage those who haven't seen Queensryche to go check them out, and/or give their two albums a listen.
For various reasons, however, my enjoyment of current Queensryche has waned a bit in the last three years. I've moved on to other bands, but still consider the original lineup of Queensryche as my favorite group of all time, and continue to listen to the records from classic Queensryche fairly regularly. For those that enjoy the original/classic version of Queensryche, check out my website, www.AnybodyListening.net, from time to time. I put together a detailed history on the band's original lineup, discography, extensive tour date archive (including setlists and photos) and a scrapbook that contains articles and promotional material on the band from 1982-1997 (and some Tribe stuff where appropriate). It is a labor of love I try to update three or four times per year, as time allows.
Thanks again for all the compliments on the write-ups, and I am glad folks enjoyed them. It has been fun.
End of line...
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I will simply post my impressions of the TLT-era albums in emoticon form.
Emoticons I most often associate with the Tate-ryche years:
??? :tempus: :facepalm:
Emoticons I most associate with the TLT years:
:metal :caffeine:
Also:
:caffeine:
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Thank you so much. It has been so enjoyable reading all of this and interacting in this thread.
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As I mentioned a few weeks ago, I got into Queensryche on a very casual basis just before the American Soldier era of Tateryche. I had Operation: Mindcrime and the first print of the Sign of the Times greatest hits album and that was it... until late Spring 2012, any ways.
For me, it all started when I put on Operation: Mindcrime for my dad for the first time during the middle of a roadtrip he and I were doing to go down to Florida for a few days. I was a huge Journey fan at the time and had told him about how Geoff Tate had auditioned for Journey at some point in the 90's and wanted to talk with him about the hypothetical "What If" scenario if Tate had joined Journey. As "Eyes of a Stranger" came to a close, I remember telling my dad how Queensryche had apparently dipped in quality big time during the middle of the 90's and that I had wondered why Tate was still with that band.
Karma came and kicked me right in the ass a couple weeks later. :lol
So once the tides had changed and reports were coming in for the whole Rising West affair and then Todd actually joining Queensryche proper, I decided I needed to go back and do a bit more listening to the classic era of QR. It was right around that time that I joined a certain forum by the name of "The Breakdown Room" and met Samsara and some others in the community here for the first time. :biggrin:
I've only seen the band live once and it was in 2013, just a couple months before the first album with Todd was released. I had recently undergone an extreme jaw surgery to fix my overbite, so I was on a purely liquid diet for several months and was warned mightily by the doctors not to get myself into any situation that'd be too roughhousey. Still, I wanted to go see the guys play and in the process met a couple of friends from the Breakdown Room while I was there.
The self-titled album definitely has some flaws. It's definitely too short and the mastering is way too loud. However it's got some killer songs on it, even if they could stand to be a bit longer. My favorite track on the album has always been "Open Road." I recognize that the band has better songs as a whole, but OR has a really special place in my heart.
As for Condition Human, it's definitely the better album of the two, but I really need to go back and listen to it some more. My life was a huge mess during the fall of 2015 (My two dogs died, my apartment flooded, college was hell), so I didn't really spend much time paying heed to CH.
Anyways, thank you Samsara for this wonderfully thorough thread! It's been a blast, man.
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Thanks to you for these excellent write-ups! I like to read about bands I follow and if it's done right, I sometimes like the stories even more than some albums of the band itself - for example I enjoyed the hell out of reading the Black Sabbath timeline on Joe Siegler's unofficial-but-almost-official Black Sabbath website), and my interest in reading post-Promised Land stuff on here was greater than my interest in those albums.
I may try to check out the La Torre album as well - yes, I apologize for that, but I haven't heard them. There's so much stuff to listen to, so little free time, and the Queensryche experience was so soured for me that while still knowing a "new" Queensryche was out there, I could never find the proper interest to listen to them.
For sure if they'd show up at a festival I'd gladly see them, one day I guess I'll have to do the not so impossible task to find 35 minutes to spare to listen to the "new beginning" of 2013.
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But seriously...
I really enjoy these two albums, musically. They really righted the ship as far as I'm concerned. A few comments:
Self-titled
Simply calling the album "Queensryche" was a pretty bold statement right out of the gate. But with the release of the first single, Redemption, concerns were almost immediately put to rest. That song was a statement right out of the gate. It was a great choice to debut this version of the band--fast, aggressive, incorporating a lot of classic-Queensryche-isms, and putting TLT front and center. The only real flaws with this song are: (1) The vocals were a bit too processed and effects-laden. I recall it being discussed when the single was released ahead of the album, but I seem to recall most people not being overly bothered with it, other than questioning whether Todd was perhaps not quite the singer that we thought he was, and perhaps needing the effects to prop up his voice. (2) For the standpoint of the vocals, the song is not well-written. There is just too much going on, and no way the song can be credibly replicated live. This was borne out when the band toured and Todd had to sing it every night.
When the album was released, the criticism about the vocal effects was more pronounced, probably because rather than it being something on just one isolated track, it appeared throughout. But Samsara highlighted the bigger criticisms:
As discussed at length on various message boards and social media platforms, it is dreadfully short, clocking in at just over 35 minutes. Like Tate and Frequency Unknown, Jackson-Rockenfield-Wilton recognized the necessity of having new music out in the market during their legal battle, and quickly put together a slate of songs. But while some were clearly complete, others are obviously not as fleshed-out and worked over as they likely should have been. This also gave the record a simplistic feel to a degree, as many of the songs lack bridges and more progressive song structures that classic Queensryhe was known for.
This was my biggest beef. But that said, it was still an outstanding "debut" effort, and one I still really enjoy listening to. There is so much that is "right" about this album.
Actually, let me correct: my BIGGEST beef, and one that remains to this day, is that the band did not promote the new material enough. Unlike many, I support the band relegating themselves somewhat to "nostalgia status." For bands of that era, especially the ones that are not huge, I think it is valid to accept that they can't take the world by storm with new material. I am fine accepting them making money by playing festivals with other rock bands of the era, even if they didn't quite fit the same mold as the bands we would consider "hair metal" bands, and playing mostly the classics that the casual fans want to hear. But they have been writing REALLY solid material for the past two albums. Not featuring more of that is a crime.
Condition Human
Even better than its predecessor. The minor "flaws" and criticism of the self-titled were addressed in full. I have nothing to really criticize about this album whatsoever. Just outstanding. I do think the title track was VERY underwhelming and nothing like the songs the band compared it to pre-release. But I'm okay with that. You can't ALWAYS knock it out of the park. The rest of the album pretty much does.
As far as highlights, the first four songs alone are with the price. And while I didn't warm up to Eye9 nearly as quickly as most fans seemed to, I now would probably put it up there with the others, along with Bulletproof. The other songs are maybe a step down from those, but still solid. The only song I really don't care for very much, as already noted, is the title track. Just a really solid effort. If the next one is this good, I'll be a pretty happy fan.
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Yeah, I'm with bosk that the biggest mistake Queensryche have made in the Todd-era is that they don't play enough of their new material live. I've heard their defense on the matter before on Facebook and get where they're coming from, but I just find it a bit tragic that a lot of these great songs just aren't being played live. I always point to Iron Maiden as the prime example of an older band that has the confidence in themselves to play a lot of their new material live.
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I have a love-hate relationship with the current QR lineup. In 2012 and 2013, I was completely on board with them - they were back to being a metal band, with a killer singer. Loved the self-titled record, though I really can't listen to it with headphones or earbuds now because of the mastering. It's the only album I have that actually hurts my ears because of the wall of sound if I listen to it too loudly - even Death Magnetic doesn't seem as bad as this one sounds.
I saw them in the summer of 2013 at a local, suburban festival. Again - love/hate. I had front row VIP seats for $25, but it was a fucking picnic shelter. So embarrassing to see my one-time favorite band that could easily headline a 3 night stand at the House of Blues reduced to playing a suburban summer festival in a park. These fly-in shows have fully cemented them in with the nostalgia crowd that only wants to come out and hear the hits - and they'll play anywhere that pays them, regardless of how it makes them look. They've played in parking lots behind Harley dealerships too. That being said, the show was amazing, they drew 5,500 to this little suburban festival and sounded incredible. They played Redemption, Where Dreams Go to Die and Fallout from the self- titled record, along with most of the Return to History tunes. I was ecstatic to finally hear them play Prophecy, En Force and Child of Fire.
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/971678_10201712639322465_1372025834_n.jpg?oh=1550fe0551bf8f41700494d5496cc530&oe=5A3B9E29)
Condition Human was the album that I was looking for. It was heavy, it sounded amazing, it had great riffs and songs, it was dark and moody. But the band has fallen into playing the hits and throws out the one or two token new songs when their contemporaries like Nightwish, Symphony X and Iced Earth are out there slogging away, playing 4-8 new songs every night. Queensryche's show length has hurt them, and they seem to rely on the "hey, here's 10 old songs that Todd hadn't yet sung with us" trick. Eventually, they'll run out of older songs that Todd hasn't yet sung.
I'm done seeing them live until they start playing a lot of newer songs. I've seen them 10 times - I don't need to hear Walk in the Shadows again, nor do I want to pay multiple times to see the same exact setlist two years in a row. Not when I can go see bands that I've never seen before, or bands that are playing songs from their new albums that I really enjoy.
But I'm still on board with their albums - they're finally putting out music that I want to hear from them and I'm glad that they're writing together as a team. Todd is a great singer, it's just sad that he rarely gets to sing any of "his" songs from "his" albums that he's featured on.
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Late to the party once again, but I finally got around to listening to AS, D2C and FU...
American Soldier is pretty decent, probably because the band members actually play on it and Tate must've been more emotionally invested (no pun intended lol) in the concept compared to Mindcrime 2. However, my criticisms echo those that others made already: Tate's performance is rough to say the least, Unafraid would work better with sung verses, the record gets a bit too ballad-heavy towards the end, and an experienced child singer could've made Home Again sound a lot better (didn't Wilton mention in his declaration that Tate's daughter sang in the wrong key and Kelly Gray had to autotune her vocals pretty heavily?). Still easily the best album of the Tateryche era - Wilton's solos are good, and Man Down and the run from Hundred Mile Stare to The Killer are pretty solid.
Dedicated to Chaos though... :lol I listened to the special edition with the bonus tracks and it may have been the longest 70 minutes of my life. You can hear the QR spirit at a few points, such as At the Edge and The Lie, but then there's dreck like Wot (the Fuck Did) We Do and Got It Bad, inoffensive yet cheesy tunes like Get Started and Around the World, and stuff with potential that was wasted when Tate crapped all over the music with his lyrics and vocal lines - namely Hot Spot Junkie and Retail Therapy. At least the album lives up to its name, as it's a mess that clearly lacks any kind of direction or vision. :P
Frequency Unknown is an improvement, but not a drastic one. Cold is a catchy tune, The Weight of the World recaptures some of the depth that Tate used to have in his songwriting, and there's a bunch of other decent songs like Fallen. Dare and Slave are embarrassing though, and the heaviness of some other songs comes across as a contrived and calculated attempt to one-up his ex-bandmates and convince the fans he was still a metal dude. Besides, the pathetic cover and the thinly veiled insult in the title, as well as knowing that he rushed this album just to get it out before the real QR managed to release theirs makes me see red and diminishes the few positive points that there are.
EDIT: Might as well add my two cents on S/T and CH now that the write-ups are there... The self-titled is indeed brickwalled to hell and too short, but musically it's quite alright. My main problem is that after the strong 3-song punch of WDGTD, Spore and In This Light the rest of the album doesn't measure up, with the exception of Open Road, and the lack of prog makes the material lack depth a bit. CH fixes the problems of S/T, though I find myself missing DeGarmo's melodic sensibilities at a few points and don't like the drum sound too much. That said, the title-track, Selfish Lives, Bulletproof and Hellfire are all modern QR classics in my eyes, and on the whole it's by far the strongest album since PL.
Thanks for this thread and the informative write-ups, Samsara! :tup I've been reading the site and lurked at the forum while it was still alive, so a lot of the stuff was familiar to me beforehand, but even then there were various interesting tidbits that I hadn't been aware of.
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Thanks ? I checked out the Weight of the World, really enjoyed it and bought that song on Amazon.
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Love the Todd years. Caught them live a few months back with Casey on drums. I really missed Scott. Todd sounded amazing and the band seemed pretty tight for the most part, at least to my ears.
Like others have said, not enough new material live. Also, Michael had almost zero stage presence. Barely moving and only occasionally walking around. Todd and Parker were the ones working up the crowd.
I saw QR many times during the Tate years and I don't remember Michael being so barely there, as it were.
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Love the Todd years. Caught them live a few months back with Casey on drums. I really missed Scott. Todd sounded amazing and the band seemed pretty tight for the most part, at least to my ears.
Like others have said, not enough new material live. Also, Michael had almost zero stage presence. Barely moving and only occasionally walking around. Todd and Parker were the ones working up the crowd.
I saw QR many times during the Tate years and I don't remember Michael being so barely there, as it were.
Maybe he misses Tate. :)
Or maybe he had to move around to avoid getting spit on?
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Complacency.
It was something we talked about a lot on the forum in the mid-to-late 2000s regarding the band. I remember Michael telling me at some point a few years back now that Fozzy (who was the band's tour manager for years, and prior to that a crew member) had to tell him and Ed to move around and get into things. This was after the split. They picked up the enthusiasm for a while, but at least in the YouTube vids, they've sorta been passive again.
I also remember Todd saying at some point that he told Ed he wanted his mic stand up on the stage, or having Ed play up near him, as opposed to standing back by the drums. I know Ed made it a point to get up front at that time (again, a few years ago now), not sure if he still is.
In fairness, some things do contribute to it -- these guys are older. Although some 50-somethings headbang around the stage and run around (Maiden, etc.) some just don't have that energy. Or, like with Queensryche, sort of fell into routine over the years and now this is what they do. It happens.
In addition, the kind of "touring" they do now, as I mentioned, is not really conducive to chemistry -- and that includes stage presence. They fly in, do the show or two, and fly home. You'd think not being on the road in a bus would give them energy, but that's not the case with everyone.
Through Empire, Queensryche fan around like crazy on the stage. After that, they all sort of settled into their areas, and it really has been that way ever since (and lets face it, they play club sized stages now, so it is harder to really always show a ton of energy when you have like three feet on stage to move).
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Sam, great job with the thread.
So let me say out front that what these guys (Rock, Wilt, EJ) do for a living, and how they earn their paychecks is really their business, and you have to respect that. The fact that they hung in with Tate for a paycheck is their business, and you know what, in the end, they saw it through and ended up with the band name, so they should ultimately be applauded for that. So there's that.
BUT.....
Looking at it through this fan's eyes.....
I was into QR with the EP. I remember waiting for Warning to be released. So I have literally seen them their entire professional lives. No one made more interesting music in the 80's than Queensryche. Sure, they fell off for me in the early 90's, but by the late 90's, the fall was literally off a cliff for me. It ceased to be the same band. One of metal's biggest tragedies, in my mind, is the loss of Queensryche from the face of the "making music that matters" music scene.
Sure Tate gets the blame for QR's spiraling career, but I lost a ton of respect for the other guys. They stood by while the QR name got shit on. It was their paycheck, so I get it, and that's why I addressed that first. But it doesn't mean that I can't blame them while they seemingly stood idly by.
I was generally happy with the s/t TLT album, though, to me, it's a glorified EP. It was decent enough, but I still needed more convincing. Condition Human was a good album, and definitely made me feel better about the situation. But for some reason, that album had very little staying power. I mean, there is so much good music being released these days.
I'm not sure what the next TLT era recording will bring. Hopefully something good. But I have zero connection with Queensryche. And that's sad because I spent the 80's trying to turn everyone I knew onto them. So instead of being a great band, they end up as just being a band that happened to have three great albums at the start of their career. Even if you count Empire and um..Promised Land, that's still less than a 50% hit rate.
They have to do, what they have to do to earn a living, so I won't begrudge them that, but playing just old stuff with one new song is not good enough.
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Ahh. Finally it was safe to go back in the water...
When I heard Where Adreams Go To Die, I almost cried. here was a classic QR sounding song, at last, with all the elements that had been missing for nearly 20 years. Best QR song since Promised Land, easily. And written by a non original member. This was how it should have been done.
There is clearly songwriting talent in QR and there was the whole time Tate was using his mates instead. I know Samsara has said that CDG played a huge part in making Wilton's riffs into songs, but surely this could have been done by someone after CDG.
Anyway, I love both these albums. The st was ruined a bit by the mastering but it's not a deal breaker for me, considering the last few shit albums.
Open Roads is a great song but I felt it should have been longer. It seemed to be building to something and then just finishes. A bit of a missed opportunity.
CH is very good too, if a bit samey. Still, so much better than anything in a generation bearing the bands name.
Todd was a great find. Looking forward to the new album.
Thanks for the great write ups Samsara. Appreciate the effort, love and care you put into it.
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"Safe to go back in the water" Indeed. Hands down Queensryche 2013 and Condition Human are the two best albums the band has made since 1994, and the next one will make it three, can't wait for the new release.
The bands seems re-energized live are putting on great shows and have stepped it up. Todd and Parker are doing an OUTSTANDING job. The moniker "I have my band back again" has been uttered numerous times, and it is dead on when it comes to this band.
I think the next record is going to be the strongest to date from this lineup, but I'll be happy with it simply being on par with the last two, that is how good those are :metal
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Great job with this thread!
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Sam, great job with the thread.
So let me say out front that what these guys (Rock, Wilt, EJ) do for a living, and how they earn their paychecks is really their business, and you have to respect that. The fact that they hung in with Tate for a paycheck is their business, and you know what, in the end, they saw it through and ended up with the band name, so they should ultimately be applauded for that. So there's that.
BUT.....
Looking at it through this fan's eyes.....
I was into QR with the EP. I remember waiting for Warning to be released. So I have literally seen them their entire professional lives. No one made more interesting music in the 80's than Queensryche. Sure, they fell off for me in the early 90's, but by the late 90's, the fall was literally off a cliff for me. It ceased to be the same band. One of metal's biggest tragedies, in my mind, is the loss of Queensryche from the face of the "making music that matters" music scene.
Sure Tate gets the blame for QR's spiraling career, but I lost a ton of respect for the other guys. They stood by while the QR name got shit on. It was their paycheck, so I get it, and that's why I addressed that first. But it doesn't mean that I can't blame them while they seemingly stood idly by.
I was generally happy with the s/t TLT album, though, to me, it's a glorified EP. It was decent enough, but I still needed more convincing. Condition Human was a good album, and definitely made me feel better about the situation. But for some reason, that album had very little staying power. I mean, there is so much good music being released these days.
I'm not sure what the next TLT era recording will bring. Hopefully something good. But I have zero connection with Queensryche. And that's sad because I spent the 80's trying to turn everyone I knew onto them. So instead of being a great band, they end up as just being a band that happened to have three great albums at the start of their career. Even if you count Empire and um..Promised Land, that's still less than a 50% hit rate.
They have to do, what they have to do to earn a living, so I won't begrudge them that, but playing just old stuff with one new song is not good enough.
I get what you're saying Tim because I've been a fan since the 80's also. They pretty much fell off the cliff for me too. It really is a shame what happened to QR but there are so many sets of circumstances that can divide a band. I had my doubts about the 1st TLT album. It was short, and didn't seem very polished. But, I have to say that CH was a great follow up record and it really has aged well for me. There isn't much I don't like about that album. I'm looking forward to the 3rd installment of the new era. Peace.
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It was a great follow up, and I am also looking forward to the next one. But there's just no connection for me, and it is "just another release".
I guess I'm just feeling cynical. Like the band disappears for almost 20 years...
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It was a great follow up, and I am also looking forward to the next one. But there's just no connection for me, and it is "just another release".
I guess I'm just feeling cynical. Like the band disappears for almost 20 years...
TAC -- the band has evolved quite a bit, and I can easily see what you mean. I share the sentiment, and I'm about as big a Queensryche fan as they come.
Let's be honest. The band from 1981-1992 followed a pretty digestible path for most metal heads. Sure, Empire was more polished and commercial, but pretty much every band was doing that in 1990. I mean, listen to Images and Words and Parallels in 1992 -- same vibe. So, while there may have been some rumblings, the...evolution was sort of expected.
In 1994, I totally understand why you (TAC) don't really dig the record. It was a pretty drastic departure, looking at it just at face value. I balked myself at first. The "metal" aspect of Queensryche was ripped out, with the exception of Damaged, and replaced a bit by dark, mid-tempo songs and acoustic bits. It's completely Queensryche in every way, but its an extension of the direction I think Tate really wanted to move, as opposed the style preferred by a guy like Wilton. Remember, Tate was in a really bad place 1993-1994 -- divorce, living on his boat, etc. DeGarmo help bridge them all, and you got Promised Land. It was as honest and personal a statement as Queensryche (Tate and DeGarmo writing the lyrics) as you could get.
But love it or hate it, Promised Land was certainly Queensryche, although it was the first REALLY drastic turn. They lost a lot of interest and connection with the old audience (ring a bell here, TAC), although they still maintained most of the core audience.
Hear in the Now Frontier -- again, another HUGE shift. Not...unnatural, given sort of the stripped down way they were heading a bit with Empire, and then Promised Land in some spots. But production wise, completely the opposite from what Queensryche was known for. And writing-wise, the way they did it -- come up with tunes, don't re-write too much, just go and record. That sort of process...obviously didn't work for them totally. And thus really soured A LOT of people that just moved on.
And every record after that has been suffering from the same spiral, even MC II, which never really sounded like a sequel.
Until...the self-titled. The spiral stopped. It regained some attention. It was a familiar sound, but certainly different, for all the reasons I talked about above (how could it not be, without Tate AND DeGarmo). But it had style qualities that really tied it in with where they were with Empire.
So I totally get that...lack of connection. I disconnected (pun very much intended) myself quite a few times. The first time was in Slater's studio listening to Mindcrime II. It didn't sound...right. And then he told me the truth behind the record (which, in all honesty, it sounds good for any other band, and the fact he wrote it all with Stone, that's impressive...but not as a QR album), and I just fell flat and didn't want much to do with it.
The second time was the Mindcrime at the Moore shows. I was up there with the wife that weekend with friends. We walked out disgusted at the end. Mindcrime was turned into cheap rate off Broadway (by many blocks) theater. It was just so melodramatic. I was so sick of it all.
The final time was a few years back. I was gung-ho for the change, and after we got it, after various things (important to me, but not everyone else) following the self-titled album release and tour...I just wasn't feeling it. I tried with Condition Human. Again, good album. But things sort of soured for me after a bit. Probably not at all the music, just other stuff. But now, a couple years later, I listen to Condition Human and go "hey, that's a pretty good band. They sorta sound like Queensryche." It is Queensryche, of course. But it's...different, for obvious reasons. Just like MC II, American Soldier, etc. It's not...the same. (For the record, I like the self-titled a bit more than Condition Human.)
So, I am with you. There's no connection any longer. I wish them the best, and I will always follow what they do, but I am very content with being a hardcore fan of the original lineup of Queensryche, and just a casual fan of everything else. I am also looking forward to what they do on TLT-QR III, but more in a "oh, cool, I wonder where they will go next," way, instead of a "I AM COMPLETELY STOKED" way, like I always used to be. Just not over-the-top invested and "connected" any longer, unless there is some sort of live release of the original band, or whatnot. Then I'd be really connected and invested in what that was.
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Even though I simply don't get it, I totally understand that many love Promised Land.
And frankly, I'm glad that "Queensryche" has had some decent output lately.
But the 80's and Tate's soaring vocals will sadly never be replicated. Time to get out of my rocking chair and grab some oatmeal. ;D
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But the 80's and Tate's soaring vocals will sadly never be replicated. Time to get out of my rocking chair and grab some oatmeal. ;D
I'm with ya man. When you listen to the live stuff from back then, particularly The Warning and Rage tours...the guy was simply...jaw dropping. That combination of power, depth, and range was just incredible. Dickinson and Halford didn't quite have it like that. And to be honest, I haven't quite heard it the same ever since. A lot of people get close, but not quite like that.
Oh, and get off my lawn. :lol
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Get off mine! :lol
My 3 all time Top 3 vocals:
Michael Kiske: Keepers Part II
James Labrie: Images And Words
Geoff Tate: Operation Mindcrime
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I'd been waiting to hear Michael Wilton's version of QR since the Q2K debacle and finally we got it! The most notable thing about the two new records is that they sound like QR again - the guitars sound right, the drums sound right, the bass sounds right, the production sounds good...
So, what did we get with LaTorre? Well, Queen Of The Reich has never sounded so good and any of the more metal edged songs he sounds better on than Tate ever did. Also, LaTorre has a voice in far, far better shape than Tate's booze/drugs/touring/laziness addled one, but whilst LaTorre has great range, his control over the areas that Tate was an absolute master at, in his heyday, is not as good. But then, Tate, in his prime, was one of the most technically accomplished singers out there.
Also, aside from the fuckwittery of the lyrics on DtC, even without DeGarmo around Tate could craft a lyric that at least sounded phonetically friendly regardless of what it was trying to convey, whereas since Tate's gone there's been some really clumsy sounding lyrics here and there... the kind that probably look nice on paper, read ok, but sound poor when sung and have a little bit of the 15 year old trying to write "deep" poetry feel about them.
That said, the vocal melodies have been better without Tate and across the two new records there's been some genuinely great hooks, which there'd been an almost complete absence of in the Tateryche years.
In terms of the two records:
The self-titled: It's not up to the standards of the classic QR era when the Whip/DeGarmo/Tate songwriting dynamic was in full flight, but it's the best record they'd released since Empire, for my money and a great return to form. My only criticisms of it are the running length, the Midnight Lullaby/A World Without bit is the weakest part of the record and a bit of a momentum killer and the excess distortion that crept into the start of Redemption. Favourite tracks are Spore, Don't Look Back and Fallout.
Condition Human: Again, not quite up to the standards of the classic QR era and not quite as strong as the S/T effort overall, but it's still a solid effort. It starts very strongly with Arrow Of Time through Toxic Remedy, but I really don't like Selfish Lives. Eye9's a corker and Bulletproof is a quality effort with possibly one of their best ever choruses... then it rather starts to run out of steam. All There Was is pretty good, but off the top of my head I'm struggling to remember what any of the other songs after Bulletproof sound like.
So happy they'd finally gotten rid of the massive millstone around their neck and released a couple of really good records after so many years of garbage releases. It's just a shame they couldn't rid themselves of Tate much, much earlier.
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I remember listening to the self-titled album when it came out. It was the first post-Promised land album by the band that I checked out and it featured some good music, even though it was ridiculously short and the production bothered me quite a bit. I'll revisit it once I'm done with Frequency unknown, and then I'll see what Condition human has to offer. For some reason, I wasn't interested in it enough when it came out. I guess I wasn't in Queensryche mood too often that year.
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Here is my list for top 3 vocal performances :
JLB : Images and Words and/or Awake
Geoff Tate : OM and/or Empire
Michael Kiske : Keeper Part II
Honorable mention : Tony Harnell : TNT's Tell No Tales
B.Lee
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Maybe "favorite album" is tainting my view, but I've always considered RfO to be Tate's crowning achievement vocally. The staccato delivery and high notes on Screaming, the low-end passion "sweet spot" on Killing Words and London....
I still maintain that Tate *in his prime* was the greatest vocalist in the history of rock. Only his lack of longevity keeps him out of the "hall of fame" category that Bruce and Rob are in.
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So, what did we get with LaTorre? Well, Queen Of The Reich has never sounded so good and any of the more metal edged songs he sounds better on than Tate ever did. Also, LaTorre has a voice in far, far better shape than Tate's booze/drugs/touring/laziness addled one, but whilst LaTorre has great range, his control over the areas that Tate was an absolute master at, in his heyday, is not as good. But then, Tate, in his prime, was one of the most technically accomplished singers out there.
Hmm I disagree! Todd is good, but he doesn't eclipse Geoff in his prime. Hell, Geoff still sang stuff like Queen of the Reich back in 2003 pretty much without flaw.
People saying Todd sounds better compared to Geoff at the same age - you have to keep in mind that Geoff has seen many more years of wear and tear on his voice.
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Yep, the self-titled album is pretty solid. I think the first half of it, or what would be side one on vinyl, is remarkably consistent, with Redemption, Where dreams go to die and In this light being my favorites. Side two, however, features mostly average songs. The album could benefit from one more epic tune closing out the album, but still, it's a fine first release from the new band. It blows Frequency unknown out of the water, which I found as bland and mediocre metal as it gets.
Both albums do sound rushed, however, even though the La-Torre-fronted band did a better job as far as I'm concerned. I'm about to listen to Condition human - hopefully the band hammered out the production, the length and other flaws of the previous release.
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I barely returned to the self-titled album after several listens because of how awful the sound is. It's like listening to something on an old radio where the needle is just barely not on the right station, and gets worse when you turn up. I remember a couple songs being good, but every time I've tried to listen to them since, the sound made my ears bleed. Too much good music out there to force feed myself stuff that sounds this awful.
I never checked out the album after that.
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Everyone who never checked out Condition Human really needs to fix that.
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I fixed it.
It was pretty good. Unfortunately, only the first two tracks were really fantastic. The rest is mostly very solid with occassional moments of brilliance and only two or three rather average tunes. It's a fun listening experience overall, and compared to some other albums that might have more great songs but also its fair share of filler, it ranks impressively high on the Queensryche list.
Here's how I'd rank the albums:
Operation: Mindcrime
Promised Land
Rage For Order
The Warning
Empire
Tribe
Condition: human
Hear In The Now Frontier
American Soldier
Queensryche
Q2K
Operation: Mindcrime II
Dedicated To Chaos
Frequency unknown
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I loved the self-titled record when that came out. It felt like a logical progression from Promised Land and it had a lot of recognizable QR elements. Condition Human was a solid follow up but I don't feel it reached the heights of the self-titled. I'm interested to see what they do next, and I hope they focus on the Todd years a little more on their next tour.
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God tier
O:M
Rage For Order
Empire
The Warning
Promised Land
Pretty good
Queensryche
Condition Human
Hardly ever listen but have some redeeming qualities
Hear In The Now Frontier
Q2k
O:M 2
Don't exist in my world
Everything else
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Operation: Mindcrime
Rage For Order
Promised Land
Empire
Tribe
The Warning
Hear In The Now Frontier
Operation: Mindcrime II
American Soldier
Dedicated To Chaos
Frequency unknown
Q2K
The Key
Ressurection
Condition: human
Queensryche
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Rage For Order
Promised Land
Mindcrime
Empire
Warning
Queensryche
Condition Human
EP
Hear in the Now Frontier
Tribe
Q2K
Mindcrime II
I don’t own the rest of the Tateryche stuff.
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Rage for Order
Promised Land
Operation: Mindcrime
The Warning
EP
Condition Human
Empire
Queensryche
Tribe
Q2K
Hear in the Now Frontier
I don't count the rest
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Warning/Mindcrime
EP
Rage
Empire
Condition Human
That's it.
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The Warning
Rage for Order
Mindcrime
Empire
Promised Land
EP
Queensryche
Hear
Tribe
Condition Human
The rest of it doesn't appeal to me. I tried to listen to American Soldier lately, but I couldn't get anywhere with it. I do appreciate what he/they were trying to accomplish with it, though.
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Ah, the good 'ole lists again, eh? I'll play along. Let's see, trying to be as objective and non-biased as possible (which is sort of pointless, because this is a list of favorites, but I digress...)
Operation: Mindcrime
The Warning
Rage for Order
Promised Land
Empire
Tribe
American Soldier
Queensryche (2013)
EP (kind of hard to rank this fairly)
Hear in the Now Frontier
Condition Human
Q2k
Operation: Mindcrime II
Dedicated to Chaos
(I don't consider Frequency Unknown to be Queensryche at ALL).
>>>>>>>>>>>Generally speaking, that's where it is all at for me at the moment. Although, I usually don't rank them altogether like that. I consider eras (original lineup, post-DeGarmo, post-Tate). But if we had to go all in order, at least for today, that's what I think.
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No Empire?
Ah, the good 'ole lists again, eh? I'll play along. Let's see, trying to be as objective and non-biased as possible (which is sort of pointless, because this is a list of favorites, but I digress...)
Operation: Mindcrime
The Warning
Rage for Order
Promised Land
Tribe
American Soldier
Queensryche (2013)
EP (kind of hard to rank this fairly)
Hear in the Now Frontier
Condition Human
Q2k
Operation: Mindcrime II
Dedicated to Chaos
(I don't consider Frequency Unknown to be Queensryche at ALL).
>>>>>>>>>>>Generally speaking, that's where it is all at for me at the moment. Although, I usually don't rank them altogether like that. I consider eras (original lineup, post-DeGarmo, post-Tate). But if we had to go all in order, at least for today, that's what I think.
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No Empire?
Whoops! Thanks. Fixed.
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Ah, the good 'ole lists again, eh? I'll play along. Let's see, trying to be as objective and non-biased as possible (which is sort of pointless, because this is a list of favorites, but I digress...)
Operation: Mindcrime
The Warning
Rage for Order
Promised Land
Empire
Tribe
American Soldier
Queensryche (2013)
EP (kind of hard to rank this fairly)
Hear in the Now Frontier
Condition Human
Q2k
Operation: Mindcrime II
Dedicated to Chaos
(I don't consider Frequency Unknown to be Queensryche at ALL).
>>>>>>>>>>>Generally speaking, that's where it is all at for me at the moment. Although, I usually don't rank them altogether like that. I consider eras (original lineup, post-DeGarmo, post-Tate). But if we had to go all in order, at least for today, that's what I think.
Samsara you seem to be a huge QR fan, do you not consider F.U to not be QR because you don't care for Tate or because of the band? It's funny I don't consider the two QR without Tate to be QR. I have nothing against Todd and am not into the whole who is better but to me it just doesn't seem like QR anymore. If I was in Todd's shoes and had that voice , I would take the gig as well. Plus many QR fans seem to really dig to post Tate QR.
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Not to answer for Samsara, but F.U. is NOT a Queenryche album. Geoff Tate was not in the band and no longer owned the name. A judge ruled that he could temporarily use it until it could get sorted out whether he was still a part owner of the rights to it. But it didn't belong to him or anyone in the band.
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Not to answer for Samsara, but F.U. is NOT a Queenryche album. Geoff Tate was not in the band and no longer owned the name. A judge ruled that he could temporarily use it until it could get sorted out whether he was still a part owner of the rights to it. But it didn't belong to him or anyone in the band.
While I dislike F.U. and Tate's incarnation of Queensr˙che at that point, by your logic, the 2013 self-titled isn't a Queensr˙che album either.
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Not to answer for Samsara, but F.U. is NOT a Queenryche album. Geoff Tate was not in the band and no longer owned the name. A judge ruled that he could temporarily use it until it could get sorted out whether he was still a part owner of the rights to it. But it didn't belong to him or anyone in the band.
While I dislike F.U. and Tate's incarnation of Queensr˙che at that point, by your logic, the 2013 self-titled isn't a Queensr˙che album either.
Setzer, I like you QR bootleg youtube page.
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Samsara you seem to be a huge QR fan, do you not consider F.U to not be QR because you don't care for Tate or because of the band? It's funny I don't consider the two QR without Tate to be QR. I have nothing against Todd and am not into the whole who is better but to me it just doesn't seem like QR anymore. If I was in Todd's shoes and had that voice , I would take the gig as well. Plus many QR fans seem to really dig to post Tate QR.
Running out, but will answer you tomorrow. :)
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Samsara you seem to be a huge QR fan, do you not consider F.U to not be QR because you don't care for Tate or because of the band? It's funny I don't consider the two QR without Tate to be QR. I have nothing against Todd and am not into the whole who is better but to me it just doesn't seem like QR anymore. If I was in Todd's shoes and had that voice , I would take the gig as well. Plus many QR fans seem to really dig to post Tate QR.
Running out, but will answer you tomorrow. :)
Ok, but I will not be able to sleep. :)
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Not to answer for Samsara, but F.U. is NOT a Queenryche album. Geoff Tate was not in the band and no longer owned the name. A judge ruled that he could temporarily use it until it could get sorted out whether he was still a part owner of the rights to it. But it didn't belong to him or anyone in the band.
While I dislike F.U. and Tate's incarnation of Queensr˙che at that point, by your logic, the 2013 self-titled isn't a Queensr˙che album either.
How so? The band that released the 2013 album owned the name. That has never been in dispute.
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Wow....bosk and I are 100% together on this one.
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Wow...JD actually responded to one of my posts. :)
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Ok....at home....IRL....I literally :rollin ed
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Not to answer for Samsara, but F.U. is NOT a Queenryche album. Geoff Tate was not in the band and no longer owned the name. A judge ruled that he could temporarily use it until it could get sorted out whether he was still a part owner of the rights to it. But it didn't belong to him or anyone in the band.
While I dislike F.U. and Tate's incarnation of Queensr˙che at that point, by your logic, the 2013 self-titled isn't a Queensr˙che album either.
How so? The band that released the 2013 album owned the name. That has never been in dispute.
Well as you say, at that point in time, nobody really owned the name. Both camps were allowed to use it, as ruled by the judge.
Of course in hindsight, you can say the self-titled was the proper Queensr˙che album. But had Tate won the lawsuit, then what?
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Not to answer for Samsara, but F.U. is NOT a Queenryche album. Geoff Tate was not in the band and no longer owned the name. A judge ruled that he could temporarily use it until it could get sorted out whether he was still a part owner of the rights to it. But it didn't belong to him or anyone in the band.
While I dislike F.U. and Tate's incarnation of Queensr˙che at that point, by your logic, the 2013 self-titled isn't a Queensr˙che album either.
How so? The band that released the 2013 album owned the name. That has never been in dispute.
Well as you say, at that point in time, nobody really owned the name. Both camps were allowed to use it, as ruled by the judge.
Of course in hindsight, you can say the self-titled was the proper Queensr˙che album. But had Tate won the lawsuit, then what?
No, I never said "nobody really owned the name." And nobody else said that either. It was clear that Mike, Eddie, and Scott owned it. That was NEVER in dispute by anyone. The only question was whether Tate owned part of it as well. The judge that ruled on the injunction ruled that he could use it (not that he owned it) until it was decided whether he was also a part owner (among other things to be decided).
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Not to answer for Samsara, but F.U. is NOT a Queenryche album. Geoff Tate was not in the band and no longer owned the name. A judge ruled that he could temporarily use it until it could get sorted out whether he was still a part owner of the rights to it. But it didn't belong to him or anyone in the band.
While I dislike F.U. and Tate's incarnation of Queensr˙che at that point, by your logic, the 2013 self-titled isn't a Queensr˙che album either.
How so? The band that released the 2013 album owned the name. That has never been in dispute.
Well as you say, at that point in time, nobody really owned the name. Both camps were allowed to use it, as ruled by the judge.
Of course in hindsight, you can say the self-titled was the proper Queensr˙che album. But had Tate won the lawsuit, then what?
No, I never said "nobody really owned the name." And nobody else said that either. It was clear that Mike, Eddie, and Scott owned it. That was NEVER in dispute by anyone. The only question was whether Tate owned part of it as well. The judge that ruled on the injunction ruled that he could use it (not that he owned it) until it was decided whether he was also a part owner (among other things to be decided).
I'm reading between the lines then.
What about my 2nd point though?
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What second point? You mean, what would have happened if Tate won? As relevant to this point, he could have hypothetically been reinstated to the band (unlikely; people usually get money rather than reinstatement in these types of cases), which would have meant that he was a 1/4 owner. But even in that case, he would not have had the right to use the band name in a way that the other three did not agree to, which makes the ruling on the injunction even more bizarre. This wasn't a situation where he had a claim to any superior rights and could have claimed to be the sole or majority owner. He was trying to argue that factually with the 81% baloney, but there was not legal basis for that, and that could not have stood up in court.
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What second point? You mean, what would have happened if Tate won? As relevant to this point, he could have hypothetically been reinstated to the band (unlikely; people usually get money rather than reinstatement in these types of cases), which would have meant that he was a 1/4 owner. But even in that case, he would not have had the right to use the band name in a way that the other three did not agree to, which makes the ruling on the injunction even more bizarre. This wasn't a situation where he had a claim to any superior rights and could have claimed to be the sole or majority owner. He was trying to argue that factually with the 81% baloney, but there was not legal basis for that, and that could not have stood up in court.
Whether it is QR or not, I really enjoy The Weight of the World song.
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Legal stuff aside, as long as an album has the band name on its cover, it's an album by the band as far as I'm concerned. I'm not too thrilled about counting Frequency unknown as part of the Queensryche discography, however, since it's easily the worst of the bunch. Same with Squeeze by The Velvet Underground.
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Of course I'm no legal expert, but the decision of the judge really baffled me. Why would you even allow for two bands using the same name? there really wasn't any temporary solution? saying to two different parties they can use the same name is such a point of confusion that shouldn't be allowed.
Imagine if John Deacon would be against Brian May and Roger Taylor doing their thing, and a judge would grant them both to be billed as Queen... what a whacky solution it would be?
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FU might technically be a QR record but it's hard to take seriously given the circumstances under which it was released. I find it quite easy to ignore because I can just lump it in with the rest of the Tateryche rubbish.
As for rankings I just put them into tiers, with the caveat that Mindcrime is very much the top of the top tier as it's my all time favourite record:
Operation: Mindcrime
Rage For Order
Empire
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EP
The Warning
HiTNF
Tribe
S/T
Condition Human
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Operation Mindcrime II
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Q2k
American Soldier
Dedicated to Chaos
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FU
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Samsara you seem to be a huge QR fan, do you not consider F.U to not be QR because you don't care for Tate or because of the band? It's funny I don't consider the two QR without Tate to be QR. I have nothing against Todd and am not into the whole who is better but to me it just doesn't seem like QR anymore. If I was in Todd's shoes and had that voice , I would take the gig as well. Plus many QR fans seem to really dig to post Tate QR.
Bill,
I'm just "slightly" a Queensryche fan. ;) :lol
To answer your question, at first, I didn't consider F.U. to be QR because it was just the Tate with a bunch of guys he slapped together to try and wrestle the band name from Jackson, Rockenfield, and Wilton. I considered the latter to be "Queensryche" because they had three original members, one of whom, through 1990, and again from 1999-2003, was a primary writer in the band. To me, that makes it pretty clear.
As time has gone on, however, I actually think more along the lines (if I am reading what you wrote correctly) that you do. I think "Queensryche" as it is currently constituted, is a very good band that made two good records that I enjoy to varying degrees. But it isn't the Queensryche I was a big fan of. The voices, while similar in some ways, are actually VERY different, as is the writing in the band (both musically and lyrically).
And if you think about that, it only makes sense. Queensryche's main writers were always DeGarmo, Tate, Wilton, with DeGarmo/Tate being the key two guys on Promised Land and Hear in the Now Frontier, as the band gravitated away from Wilton's strength as a writer. DeGarmo/Tate/Wilton is like the heart/soul/balls of what made the band, with Rockenfield and Jackson holding down the foundation.
The foundation and balls are still present, but the heart and soul of Queensryche is very different now. Not bad, just...different. And while it very much appealed to me at the time of the split, it no longer does. I still consider myself a fan, and wish them all the success in the world (as I do Tate). But after seeing the current lineup of Queensryche (both as Rising West and under the band name) eight times, the differences are very striking to me, and I don't really feel the need to go see them again. For me, it's not the same. The music they create and the performances are good, but just don't have the same appeal to me.
Basically, this is my long way of saying I agree with you, and that is also the reason my website is devoted to the original lineup of Queensryche, which most of us I think can agree, is where they were at their best and most distinct. That history is pretty much wiped out from existence, so I try and preserve it as best I can.
Of course I'm no legal expert, but the decision of the judge really baffled me. Why would you even allow for two bands using the same name? there really wasn't any temporary solution? saying to two different parties they can use the same name is such a point of confusion that shouldn't be allowed.
Imagine if John Deacon would be against Brian May and Roger Taylor doing their thing, and a judge would grant them both to be billed as Queen... what a whacky solution it would be?
The decision made absolute sense from a business and legal standpoint. You have two parties. Both require the name in order to make ends meet. You permit them both use of the name and mark in order to continue making a living while the conflict is resolved. It makes total sense from a legal perspective, even if on the surface it looks strange.
Whether it is QR or not, I really enjoy The Weight of the World song.
I like the tune as well. I think Tate oversings it, however, making it hard to listen to seriously.
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Of course I'm no legal expert, but the decision of the judge really baffled me. Why would you even allow for two bands using the same name? there really wasn't any temporary solution? saying to two different parties they can use the same name is such a point of confusion that shouldn't be allowed.
Imagine if John Deacon would be against Brian May and Roger Taylor doing their thing, and a judge would grant them both to be billed as Queen... what a whacky solution it would be?
Unless the judge is a fan (which is very unlikely), there was no understanding of the situation at first. Two parties are filing motions saying (I am Queensryche, not the other party). There were arguments for and against each.
So the judge acted fairly, essentially saying "until we sort through the details, you can both be 'Queensryche." Was it confusing to fans and the music industry? Sure. But in a legal setting, it was pretty fair, since Tate did have a decent argument for why he was Queensryche (the expiration of the original band contract/agreement and his being able to assume control of a lot of the band's actions), though supporters of the band disagreed, since a 3-1 vote to fire the singer by the other corporate owners is pretty clear-cut that he was not in the band.
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Thanks for the replies. I undersand what you're both saying but I still think that the confusion could have and should have been avoided.
If at all, if Tate lost / settled, it should be concluced that his version of Queensryche shouldn't have existed, and therefore even if was legal at the time to do that, has a settlement came before, he would have never been able to do a "Queensryche" album.
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Let me explain the decision another way, because I realize this may still make no sense to the vast majority of people. And this is a very simplified explanation that leaves out a lot of detail and legal analysis.
First off, nothing FINAL was likely going to be decided until the thing actually got to trial. Trial would not have happened for another year or two (or three, or four...) down the road. Nobody would be hearing the evidence. Nobody would be issuing a verdict. Nothing. Both sides would simply be waiting (and the lawyers doing all the pretrial stuff that goes on for the years before a case gets to trial). Don't ask why it takes so long; just take my word for it that it does.
Each side was basically asking the court, WAY in advance of the trial date, to prevent the other side from using the Queensryche name and doing other things. Put another way, they are basically saying to the court: "We're not going to get to trial and have it decided who actually owns Queensryche for another few years. During that time, we still have to make a living. And it would hurt our ability to do so if the other side is using the name. So even though it isn't decided yet, please order that they can't call themselves 'Queensryche' in the mean time until the trial is decided." They are asking for an interim order to prevent harm during the course of the litigation.
Now think about it from the perspective of a judge who knows VERY little about the case and may not know anything at all about the band and its inner workings. On one hand, if he denies one side the use of the name for that few years leading up to trial, and that side were to ultimately win at trial once ALL the evidence is out there to be carefully weighed and considered, the judge would have been proven wrong, and that party would have been harmed during that entire period by being denied the use of the name. But what if he lets both sides just keep on as they have been? For one side, that is the wrong result. But the harm is probably going to be substantially less. So, from a practical standpoint, a lot of judges are going to opt for the result that has the least risk to both sides. Here, that was letting both sides use the name until the evidence would eventually be sorted out.
I think, legally speaking, that was the wrong decision. That is, the judge got it completely wrong. But it isn't a slam dunk by any stretch, and there are plenty who would disagree with that. But it wouldn't have made sense for the band to challenge the ruling for at least two reasons I can think of: (1) Appeals are expensive and take a long time. Even if the band went through the process and won, they would have had to spend more money than was worth it, and the time it would have taken would have made the result a pyrrhic victory anyway. (2) The trial court judge has a lot of discretion in making these types of rulings. Even if there is a strong basis for saying the trial court judge got it wrong, the legal standard for overturning that decision is very high, so most courts of appeal are going to look at it and say, "Unless you can point to specific reasons that show the judge completely abused his or her discretion, we aren't even going to look at this." The decision is presumed correct, and there has to be almost overwhelming evidence to reverse it. Think of it kind of like in football where the refs make the wrong call on the field, and almost everybody knows it is the wrong call. The problem is, once that wrong call is made, it will not be overturned unless there is CLEAR and pretty indisputable evidence in looking at the replay that the call was wrong. And if you are stuck with camera angles that don't give a clear enough view to make it indisputable, you're stuck with the bad call.
So Queensryche were basically stuck with the ruling. They could have appealed, and I think they would have been right to do so. But it would not have been worth it to do so, and they likely would have lost for reasons that have little to do with whether the decision was "right" or not.
Man, my "simple" explanation ended up being a LOT longer than I planned. :-\
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Well, still I've read it and appreciate it, thanks :tup
My only confusion was on how a judge, even not a big fan of music, could think that two bands with the same name would be a good idea, like if Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak had a falling out and both would be granted the right to commercialize products branded Apple. But the "When one side wins, the other side will have been damaged for 3-4 years" angle makes sense.
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Simply put, while the decision made things confusing for the public, it made things more equal between the parties, because both were being damaged by the other, instead of one party being damaged while the other one profited until the matter was resolved.
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The fact that they all had to make a living in the meantime is not a minor detail, for sure, but it seems like it would make more sense that neither side got to use the name until everything was settled, rather than both sides. Isn't that how it usually works in the corporate world? Temporary injunctions, or whatever they're called?
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The fact that they all had to make a living in the meantime is not a minor detail, for sure, but it seems like it would make more sense that neither side got to use the name until everything was settled, rather than both sides. Isn't that how it usually works in the corporate world? Temporary injunctions, or whatever they're called?
I suppose the judge could have done that, yes. But remember, touring under another name wouldn't given them anywhere near the type of income they get like Queensryche. Promoters were not interested in booking side bands. They wanted to book Queensryche. Rising West looked into it, and there was nothing of note in regard to interest in booking the band under that name (although they would has Queensryche). I am sure Tate heard the same thing, and I am sure all of that was a consideration in what was ultimately decided upon.
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The fact that they all had to make a living in the meantime is not a minor detail, for sure, but it seems like it would make more sense that neither side got to use the name until everything was settled, rather than both sides. Isn't that how it usually works in the corporate world? Temporary injunctions, or whatever they're called?
I suppose the judge could have done that, yes. But remember, touring under another name wouldn't given them anywhere near the type of income they get like Queensryche. Promoters were not interested in booking side bands. They wanted to book Queensryche. Rising West looked into it, and there was nothing of note in regard to interest in booking the band under that name (although they would has Queensryche). I am sure Tate heard the same thing, and I am sure all of that was a consideration in what was ultimately decided upon.
Exactly. Not being able to use the "Queensryche" name was the financial "harm" the judge was likely motivated by in making the ruling. Orbert, what each side was asking for WAS a temporary/preliminary injunction. They aren't usually granted. Their purpose is to preserve the status quo until trial in order to prevent harm. Here, granting the injunction(s) would likely have caused more harm than prevented.
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Ah, got it. I understand that the band name is the big draw, and what the fight was all about. I guess I watch too much TV. On TV, it seems like judges hand out temporary injunctions like candy, and everyone just suffers until the trial. But on TV, that's usually later in the week, or next Thursday or something, not years later.
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I have to say the self titled album pretty much killed my interest, I didn't even listen to Condition Human when it came out. There's some good music on there, particularly Where Dreams Go To Die and Redemption, but it was pretty obvious that this was being released as a response to Frequency Unknown. I can understand that they were forced to throw their hat in the ring, but everything about it was so contrived that the music felt like an afterthought. The production felt that way too, very bland sound and the loud mastering is awful. I can't play the album on my system's normal volume because it distorts so badly. The whole thing is a total rush job. I also didn't hear much potential in the songwriting without Tate or DeGarmo.
Listening to Condition Human for the first time, it's pretty good! Songs are more fleshed out and the production is infinitely better, probably the best sounding Queensryche album since Promised Land.
Still, I have to echo what Samsara and TAC have both mentioned. It's just not the same. For me, the problem is that the new music lacks vision. The songs are pretty good, but there's no unity within the album the way there was with Tate. A big part of Empire and Mindcrime's appeal was the experience that came with listening to the albums. It kind of reminds me of Floyd after Roger left. The music is decent but the full album experience isn't there. At this point I'm more likely to associate QR with the 80's nostalgia Metal acts that get together for the Rocklahomas etc than with Dream Theater or Fates Warning. The stuff that made their music special just isn't there anymore.
Anyway, this thread was awesome. Thanks for doing it Samsara. This band has a fascinating history and while I can't say my opinions on them have changed all that much, my appreciation for their early material has grown.
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I see what you mean. It's just a very good metal album. It lacks variety for me, and the depth of those early albums which were real headphone albums.
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I suppose I do consider the Todd era to be Queensryche. It's definitely not the same as it was before, and those albums don't rank anywhere near Promised Land and before. However, I like them better than the last few QR albums with Tate, and I consider those albums to be QR, so...
It's probably impossible for them to ever reach those heights again. You need DeGarmo and Tate at the top of their games, and I think they both lost it. Without them there's no chance of getting that QR magic back, but with them is impossible as well because they just don't have it anymore.
So we have what we have and I think Wilton and co are doing their best and they've made some pretty good music. I wish they'd rehearse more and nail everything live, but it was still nice seeing them with Todd.
I don't quite put them in the nostalgia act category, but I certainly agree with Mosh that they aren't on the level of DT ir Fates Warning either.
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The one thing that upsets me about Queensryche live is they don't play Empire in full.
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The one thing that upsets me about Queensryche live is they don't play Empire in full.
The full record? They have never done a show where they've done that (even with the original lineup), but in 2009 on the American Soldier tour, they played three suites - Rage for Order, American Soldier, and Empire. Each suite had six or seven songs from each record, and were rotated. For Empire, I'm pretty sure they did all the songs (not at the same show, but overall).
I remember suggesting that 2015 would have been the perfect year to show case Empire on the 25th anniversary of the record. According to setlist.fm, they played 78 shows in 2015. Some of those were opening up for the Scorpions, and of course, festival dates, but there were a ton of their usual fly-in headline dates at casinos and such. The opportunity was there to play Empire in its entirety, and probably generate a lot of interest in seeing the album in full. Most bands electing to do that have seen really nice success (Dream Theater this year for Images and Words, Fates Warning with Parallels, etc.)
But Queensryche elected to play mostly a greatest hits set in 2015. In my opinion, that was probably because they didn't want to invest time in preparing any sort of Empire-based setlist, as that would require a lot of rehearsal and overall time...and they were busy writing and recording Condition Human.
Queensryche sits on a very weird fence. On one hand, they have absolutely embraced nostalgia out of the necessity of making money. They play casinos, fly-in dates for hair metal festivals, etc. Those are all good pay days, and they rely strongly on their back catalog, as opposed to the new material with Todd. On the other hand, they are still continuing to make new music, and try to pepper their setlist with a few songs from it as they go. They also balance out all the hair metal gigs and fly-in dates by doing solid headline runs and some metal festivals.
Simply put, it is an...interesting position they are in. You would think that given their status as both a progressive hard rock band, and their popularity with the hair/pop metal crowd, they'd be in a great spot. And in some ways it is. But I also think they've sort of dropped the ball a bit, not taking advantage of certain things (such as Empire's anniversary, and not properly featuring the two records with Todd in the setlist).
Take 2016. 30th Anniversary of Rage for Order. Truth be told, not a record well known by the mainstream, nor would it generate a lot of huge interest from the promoters. So, they elected not to acknowledge it, other than at some shows saying how it was 30 years since Rage's release, and then playing a couple songs.
But I'd argue this -- on the two headline legs they did in 2016 for Condition Human, how hard would it have been to play for 1 hour, 45 minutes (105 minutes, as opposed to the 85 they typically do these days as a headliner), do all of Rage for Order (50 minutes), then play three songs from self-titled (15 minutes), five songs from Condition Human (25 minutes), and then an encore of Queen of the Reich, Empire, and Take Hold of the Flame.
That...shouldn't have been hard. And it would have both given fans Rage in its entirety, a big chunk of modern QR (seven songs), and an encore of metal hits.
But nope...
I don't really get it, and don't get why they wouldn't see the value in both building good will with the fan base by doing something like that, and staying extremely relevant by featuring a bigger chunk of their most recent material. I know I'm not the only one who thinks they continually shoot themselves in the foot a bit by not doing stuff like that. But hell, I guess it is easier to just pick a setlist, learn it, and then not having to bother really rehearsing, and just do fly-in gigs. It is really a shame. But many fans don't seem to care, so I'm likely in the minority.
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Late to comment on the last records.
The self-titled was a step in the right direction, albeit to short and the production was flawed. Condition Human is as good as they can get imo, almost a return to the classics for me. This band is definitely Queensryche, but not the Queensryche of old. They are probably not able to recapture the magic of those early records but if they keep putting out quality records like Condition Human I won't complain.
And I will never accept FU as a QR album. ;D
Ranking time:
1. Operation: Mindcrime
2. Empire
3. Rage For Order
4. Condition Human
5. The Warning
6. Queensryche (2013)
7. Promised Land
8. Q2K
9. EP
10. Hear In The Now Frontier
11. American Soldier
12. Operation Mindcrime II
13. Tribe
14. Probably Dedicated to Chaos, but I've never heard it
Thanks Samsara for all the great write-ups and inside information. It was quite a ride. :tup
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I feel your pain Samsara. Well, not for the specific case of Queensryche, since my interested for them waned so much that I still haven't heard the two La Torre albums (will try and fix this sooner or later), but I imagine what it would be like for DT to play short set with Metropolis, Pull me Under, half Scenes and As I Am at every show and only two songs maximum from a good new album that nobody seems to care about.
I think too shows celebrating Empire and Rage for Order would have been well received.
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The one thing that upsets me about Queensryche live is they don't play Empire in full.
The full record? They have never done a show where they've done that (even with the original lineup), but in 2009 on the American Soldier tour, they played three suites - Rage for Order, American Soldier, and Empire. Each suite had six or seven songs from each record, and were rotated. For Empire, I'm pretty sure they did all the songs (not at the same show, but overall).
I remember suggesting that 2015 would have been the perfect year to show case Empire on the 25th anniversary of the record. According to setlist.fm, they played 78 shows in 2015. Some of those were opening up for the Scorpions, and of course, festival dates, but there were a ton of their usual fly-in headline dates at casinos and such. The opportunity was there to play Empire in its entirety, and probably generate a lot of interest in seeing the album in full. Most bands electing to do that have seen really nice success (Dream Theater this year for Images and Words, Fates Warning with Parallels, etc.)
But Queensryche elected to play mostly a greatest hits set in 2015. In my opinion, that was probably because they didn't want to invest time in preparing any sort of Empire-based setlist, as that would require a lot of rehearsal and overall time...and they were busy writing and recording Condition Human.
Queensryche sits on a very weird fence. On one hand, they have absolutely embraced nostalgia out of the necessity of making money. They play casinos, fly-in dates for hair metal festivals, etc. Those are all good pay days, and they rely strongly on their back catalog, as opposed to the new material with Todd. On the other hand, they are still continuing to make new music, and try to pepper their setlist with a few songs from it as they go. They also balance out all the hair metal gigs and fly-in dates by doing solid headline runs and some metal festivals.
Simply put, it is an...interesting position they are in. You would think that given their status as both a progressive hard rock band, and their popularity with the hair/pop metal crowd, they'd be in a great spot. And in some ways it is. But I also think they've sort of dropped the ball a bit, not taking advantage of certain things (such as Empire's anniversary, and not properly featuring the two records with Todd in the setlist).
Take 2016. 30th Anniversary of Rage for Order. Truth be told, not a record well known by the mainstream, nor would it generate a lot of huge interest from the promoters. So, they elected not to acknowledge it, other than at some shows saying how it was 30 years since Rage's release, and then playing a couple songs.
But I'd argue this -- on the two headline legs they did in 2016 for Condition Human, how hard would it have been to play for 1 hour, 45 minutes (105 minutes, as opposed to the 85 they typically do these days as a headliner), do all of Rage for Order (50 minutes), then play three songs from self-titled (15 minutes), five songs from Condition Human (25 minutes), and then an encore of Queen of the Reich, Empire, and Take Hold of the Flame.
That...shouldn't have been hard. And it would have both given fans Rage in its entirety, a big chunk of modern QR (seven songs), and an encore of metal hits.
But nope...
I don't really get it, and don't get why they wouldn't see the value in both building good will with the fan base by doing something like that, and staying extremely relevant by featuring a bigger chunk of their most recent material. I know I'm not the only one who thinks they continually shoot themselves in the foot a bit by not doing stuff like that. But hell, I guess it is easier to just pick a setlist, learn it, and then not having to bother really rehearsing, and just do fly-in gigs. It is really a shame. But many fans don't seem to care, so I'm likely in the minority.
Nah, I meant the song. Should've put song. Haha
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They do play the whole song, although the bridge to the solo is often messed with, either cutting it short or changing what it says if they don't pipe it in. The lyrics are outdated at this point, so I sorta get it. I like it as well, and think it adds a nice bit of atmosphere to the song.
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They do play the whole song, although the bridge to the solo is often messed with, either cutting it short or changing what it says if they don't pipe it in. The lyrics are outdated at this point, so I sorta get it. I like it as well, and think it adds a nice bit of atmosphere to the song.
The two times I've seen them with this lineup they cut the entire middle section and went straight into the solo.
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That's... that's horrible.
I mean it.
Sad.
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That's... that's horrible.
I mean it.
Sad.
Yeah. I thought so too. I cried, haha.
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Album ranking, This fluctuates periodically for me. Presently I'd rate them as follows.
1) Rage for Order/ Operation Mindcrime ( a tie for first)
2) Warning
3) Promised Land/ Empire (this again is a tie)
4) Condition Human
5) Queensryche 2013
6) Tribe
7) EP (short duration, two songs are great, everybody knows which two)
8) HITNF/ Q2K (I call this tie as well)
9) Mindcrime II and Frequency Unknown by the Geoff Tate Band ( I call this a tie also)
10) American Soldier
11) DTC
That's how I see them these days. and I'm hopeful that in due time I will be able to slot the forthcoming Queensryche album in the tie position at #3 or #4, we shall see.
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Samsara....., do you have a couple of 'best of' CDs? If so, care to share your tracklistings? If not, what would these include?
Curious mind(s) would like to know.
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Samsara....., do you have a couple of 'best of' CDs? If so, care to share your tracklistings? If not, what would these include?
Curious mind(s) would like to know.
You mean my personal "best ofs?" The band itself has a few greatest hits compilations for sure. For me, if I was doing a career-spanning Greatest Hits set, it would probably go like this (in album order):
Disc One
Queen of the Reich
The Lady Wore Black
NM 156
No Sanctuary
Take Hold of the Flame
Roads to Madness
Walk in the Shadows
Neue Regel
Screaming in Digital
Disc Two
Anarchy-X>Revolution Calling
The Mission
Suite Sister Mary
Breaking the Silence
I Don't Believe in Love
Eyes of a Stranger (live w/Anarchy-X reprise)
Best I Can
Empire
Jet City Woman
Silent Lucidity
Anybody Listening?
Disc Three
Damaged
Bridge
Promised Land
One More Time
Someone Else?
Sign of the Times
The Voice Inside
Reach
Hit the Black
spOOL
Desert Dance
Open
Art of Life
Disc Four
Falling Down
Breakdown
Liquid Sky
When the Rain Comes
Right Side of My Mind
Howl
Re-Arrange You
Murderer
At 30,000 Ft.
Dead Man's Words
The Killer
Man Down!
At the Edge
Disc Five
Redemption
Where Dreams Go to Die
Spore
Fallout
Eye 9
Hellfire
>>>>>>>I grouped the original lineup material together, but otherwise, it is album order. That's off the top of my head. Not quite sure if the track lengths work.