DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Kotowboy on January 20, 2017, 02:20:51 AM
-
It's almost a year ( 29/01 ) since The Astonishing was released.
• How did you feel about it a year go ?
• How do you fell about it now ?
I liked it a lot and still play it every once in a while. I'm not tired of it yet because I haven't over played it.
-
I remember the first listen like it was yesterday. It was very wet outside. I was ill with a cold I'd managed to catch the day before. The album was then, and remains now, a complete and total masterpiece. A touching story, told with the most beautiful music DT have ever written. No superlatives are adequate enough to describe it. I honestly fail to understand how people have reacted so poorly to it. It completely and utterly baffles me, and probably always will. Have you even LISTENED to this music? DT's greatest gift is just writing damn good tunes that are memorable and that tug at the heartstrings and bring the goosebumps, and The Astonishing is just so chock full of them it hurts.
It remains a top-3 DT album for me. The only thing that stops it from ranking higher is the length. It requires some time to listen to it, but in my view, there are few better ways to spend 2-and-a-bit hours. A movie for the ears.
-
@RoeDent: Agreed, completely. But I'm still reluctant to rank it higher, the album must pass through a longer "time test". Surely it's on my top 5 DT albums...
-
At first I didn't know what to make of it, because it was different from what they've done before and it was such a long record, that I didn't often find the time to listen to from start to finish.
Now I see it as another great DT record, I'm really liking it, although I'm not overly fond of the story. But the same is true for Scenes and not only for DT. Generally I really like concept albums but more often than not I'm not really connecting to the stories.
In the grand scheme of things The Astonishing would rank as a middle tier DT record for, but only because they have so much really great records.
-
Bought it on release date, heard it a day later, first impression was overall positive but I knew I had to listen to it many more times. I quickly fell in love with it and I consider it one of their best album and a grandiose and daring effort, whose little lows are eclipsed by far by the many highs.
It didn't have a multi-year staying power, by now I rarely, if at all, listen to it, but I'm completely happy with ith and, having enough time, I will never consider a chore going through it.
-
The best DT album for me.
-
I liked when it came out, but the novelty wore off really quick, and i must have listened to it one or two times in this year. It has some really good songs, but it's far from being one of my favorites.
-
• How did you feel about it a year go ?
Meh.
• How do you fell about it now ?
Meh.
-
I think my opinion is quite ironic; that in an album that focuses so heavily on concept, story & overall grandiose that I feel it's one of the most song-focused albums DT has put out, & severely dips in quality once the second disc hits. The whole experience is way less than the sum of its parts (IMO) & that really comes into effect when you consider how extensive the whole experience is.
I think they should've released Act I as it was, (which would've ranked really high in DT's rankings for me), then maybe spending a few extra months on refining what they had for Act II & then going into the studio to record that.
Nonetheless, TA is an album that's incredibly bitter-sweet to me, & for a band like Dream Theater, that's quite disappointing. Act I did take a while to grow on me to realise how much I really liked so, so maybe Act II will do the same some day, but I'm not holding my breath.
Overall it ranks 10th in my DT album ranking, ahead of WD&DU, FII & DT12 & just behind ADTOE.
-
It's the first album since I became a big fan (after Awake came out) that I didn't immediately snap up on release day in my own little special Dream Theater Day holiday. I still don't own it. I love bits and pieces of it, but not enough to go pick it up. It's quite a miss by DT for me to not even care about it. For comparison, Awake and DT12 are my favs.
-
On release it was refreshing and very moving emotionnally.
I haven't listened to it in full lenght since summer and will probably not do it often, several songs joined my playlist of random DT awesomeness :)
I'm the kind of guy who likes to jump from album to album, shuffling
-
I thought it was good when it came out, and today it sits at the very top as my favorite DT album. I still listen to it in full at least once per week. I have it on now as a matter of fact. Absolutely fantastic album, and if DT doesn't find a way to get a live version of it in my living room, I will never forgive them.
-
Loved it a year ago, love it today. It's tough to rank because it's such an anomaly, but I'd probably put it top five or in sixth place at worst.
-
Loved it a year ago, love it today. It's tough to rank because it's such an anomaly, but I'd probably put it top five or in sixth place at worst.
This is pretty much me.
-
:tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
It's the only Dream Theater album that I have never purchased. Listened to the singles, wasn't impressed. When I learned that the majority of the album was like the singles, I had no desire to buy it or listen to the whole thing.
-
:tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
It's the only Dream Theater album that I have never purchased. Listened to the singles, wasn't impressed. When I learned that the majority of the album was like the singles, I had no desire to buy it or listen to the whole thing.
So you decided you didn't like the whole album, but never listened to the whole album? :lol
You can listen to the whole thing for free, it's still up on their YouTube channel, so you don't have to pay a thing. Give it a try if you've got a little over 2 hours of time on your hands.
-
:tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
It's the only Dream Theater album that I have never purchased. Listened to the singles, wasn't impressed. When I learned that the majority of the album was like the singles, I had no desire to buy it or listen to the whole thing.
That's like saying everything on a restaurant's menu sucks because you didn't like the two things you happened to try.
-
:tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
It's the only Dream Theater album that I have never purchased. Listened to the singles, wasn't impressed. When I learned that the majority of the album was like the singles, I had no desire to buy it or listen to the whole thing.
So you decided you didn't like the whole album, but never listened to the whole album? :lol
You can listen to the whole thing for free, it's still up on their YouTube channel, so you don't have to pay a thing. Give it a try if you've got a little over 2 hours of time on your hands.
Yes - I'm a metalhead first, specific band's fan second. I know what I like and what's worth my money. I have no desire to listen to an album like The Astonishing when I would rather hear Dream Theater write and play progressive metal. For the record, this is the same reaction that I had to Queensryche's Dedicated to Chaos album. Heard a few tracks before the release, decided it wasn't for me and didn't buy it.
If people love the record, that's great. I don't like what I've heard and am very sure that there's not enough on the album for me to enjoy to warrant needing a copy of it.
-
:tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
It's the only Dream Theater album that I have never purchased. Listened to the singles, wasn't impressed. When I learned that the majority of the album was like the singles, I had no desire to buy it or listen to the whole thing.
So you were more impressed by Forsaken?
-
I thought it was good when it came out,
This. I liked it...had a tough time connecting to it right away because it deserves to be listened to in full. But it grew on me...tons of great music
if DT doesn't find a way to get a live version of it in my living room, I will never forgive them.
This. This album was written for a live show. After seeing it live I was so mad at myself for not seeing it on more than one occasion. I was so pumped that DT was coming to St. Louis, that I didn't have to road trip to see them...that I missed the chance to see it multiple times because the tour was over pretty quick after the St. Louis show. They HAVE to record a live version of this....the studio version does zero justice for just how awesome this show and this album is.
-
I liked when it came out, but the novelty wore off really quick, and i must have listened to it one or two times in this year.
Well considering this year is only 20 days old, once or twice in that time might be the average amount of listens. :P
-
It's their softest album. I will never buy it because as a whole, I don't like it. God knows I have tried.
-
:tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
It's the only Dream Theater album that I have never purchased. Listened to the singles, wasn't impressed. When I learned that the majority of the album was like the singles, I had no desire to buy it or listen to the whole thing.
So you were more impressed by Forsaken?
Actually, yes. I think that's one of Dream Theater's best and most pure SONGS that they've written in the past 10-15 years. Short, concise, to the point, great riffs, great vocal melodies. They don't have to be long, widdly-diddly songs to get my attention. In fact, I dislike most of DT's epic songs, aside from ACOS. I want them to write great metal songs, period.
What the Astonishing lacks for me is metal. I want big, heavy, slamming riffs, and I know enough about the record to know that there's not much of those over the course of two hours. That's the difference between Forsaken and The Astonishing for me.
-
Well, Moment of Betrayal is pretty metal to me ala Behind the Veil, but if it still did not work for you, then there won't be much more metal songs in the album than that one.
If you are looking for big riffs though, there are lots of amazing riffs in the album.
-
It's definitely not the type of album that would hold much appeal to a "pure metal head" (for lack of a better term). Not that there aren't plenty of incredible riffs or metal moments. But the overall album feel is that of an almost-Broadway-musical rock opera, and even in those songs and moments where they are bringing the metal (and there are plenty of those), that still feels like it is taking a back seat to overall feel and concept they were going for. So I definitely get what Grapp and others who have expressed similar thoughts about the album are saying.
As for my thoughts about the album, I liked it a lot from day 1, but didn't quite know what to do with it in terms of how to rank it or compare it to the rest of the DT catalog. A year later, I can say I love it. I'm still not quite sure where I would rank it, because it still sticks out as something really different and distinct from what they normally do. And that's okay. Interestingly, the few things that bothered me about the album from the beginning (e.g. the crying sample) STILL bother me just as much. But because the album overall has really grown in my esteem, I find it easier to overlook those things even though they don't bother me any less. Some of the factors that really enhanced my enjoyment of the album:
-Really getting to take it all in and do nothing but listen to it without distraction on many of 25-mile bike ride home from work
-Getting to experience the live show twice in two very different settings--once early on, and once toward the end of the tour cycle after I had become very familiar with the album
-Having an absolute adoration for Disney-style storytelling and presentation, which is one of the facets John incorporated very well into this album
-
With every new DT album since BC&SL, I haven't liked the album upon my first listen, but the album grows on me with each listen. I can't say the same for The Astonishing. I've listened to the whole thing all the way through many times over the past year but my opinion hasn't changed much from my first impression.
The big thing that brings it down for me is the lyrics. I was skeptical about the story from the moment this album was announced. I've listened to the album while reading along with the story, and I just can't get into it. I just don't find it to be an interesting or original story(Not calling it plagiarism, but it's very cliché). It's not even a relatable story, at least not to me. It's just cheesy, generic sci-fi/fantasy.
The moral of the story simply seems to be "Music is awesome!". My response to that: No shit. If I didn't think that already, I wouldn't have spent almost $20 on this album on iTunes and I wouldn't have spent 2 hours of my life listening to it.
James is the saving grace for this album. Despite the cheesiness of the lyrics, I do believe that this is James' best performance in his whole career.
EDIT: 1000th post whoo
-
The moral of the story simply seems to be "Music is awesome!". My response to that: No shit. If I didn't think that already, I wouldn't have spent almost $20 on this album on iTunes and I wouldn't have spent 2 hours of my life listening to it.
Not trying to talk you into liking something you don't like, but just in terms of your life outlook, here's something to maybe at least consider: Great stories don't necessarily have to bring something new to the table that you didn't already know. I would say that, once you reach a certain age or certain level of life experience, very few stories can bring something really "new" to the table for you. Many simply take a moral or make a point that has been made over and over again, but maybe simply try to strike a chord that just makes the audience think about it in a slightly different way or in a different context. But many good stories don't even do that. Just sayin'.
-
I've never given any other album so many attempts for it to click.
In the weeks after release I enjoyed some parts of it. In the weeks and months that followed I would spin it repeatedly to let it sink in
but unfortunately as more time passed it became clear it just wasn't going to connect with me on a large scale. There are some great
moments though.
And while this album isn't for me I am glad they made it and really appreciate all the effort that went into it.
-
I still remember the "meh" feeling after my first listen. Every DT album had rocked my socks off from the first listen and this was the first time I sat back with my friend and we were both like "uhh, it wasn't bad, but it also didn't blow me away and it was a bit too much for one sitting" and then over the course of the next week I'd listen to it a few more times and start to digest and understand the music and then it clicked... it's awesome. One year later and it is still in my car CD player (although I typically use my phone to listen to music in my car, and I swap between disc 1 and 2). I still think it's great.
-
:tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
It's the only Dream Theater album that I have never purchased. Listened to the singles, wasn't impressed. When I learned that the majority of the album was like the singles, I had no desire to buy it or listen to the whole thing.
That's like saying everything on a restaurant's menu sucks because you didn't like the two things you happened to try.
He said 'majority" not "everything". If I tried two things at a restaurant and didn't like either one, the chances of going back aren't very likely. Your analogy doesn't really apply.
:tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
It's the only Dream Theater album that I have never purchased. Listened to the singles, wasn't impressed. When I learned that the majority of the album was like the singles, I had no desire to buy it or listen to the whole thing.
So you were more impressed by Forsaken?
Actually, yes. I think that's one of Dream Theater's best and most pure SONGS that they've written in the past 10-15 years. Short, concise, to the point, great riffs, great vocal melodies. They don't have to be long, widdly-diddly songs to get my attention. In fact, I dislike most of DT's epic songs, aside from ACOS. I want them to write great metal songs, period.
What the Astonishing lacks for me is metal. I want big, heavy, slamming riffs, and I know enough about the record to know that there's not much of those over the course of two hours. That's the difference between Forsaken and The Astonishing for me.
Agreed. I'm a fan of progressive metal. Don't mind a ballad or two, but TA is a huge departure from what most progressive metal fans are expecting.
It's almost a year ( 29/01 ) since The Astonishing was released.
• How did you feel about it a year go ?
• How do you fell about it now ?
I dislike it as much now as I did a year ago.
-
I still love it. I find myself humming some lyrics from time to time. "Someone has to lose, and someone has to win."
Easily it has become my 2ND favorite DT album.
-
Clearly there is not much middle ground here. People either absolutely love it or absolutely hate it. DT's Marmite album.
-
I am more and more seeing the greatness of it...Im not that stickied to a metal sound, maybe that helps..I like the experimental flavour and all the melody. Havent listened for a while but listened a lot again lately as the concert is in sight and realizingits a special product. Magical how the guys come to such different still delivering the DT sound...very nice a year ago, heavily grounded by now. Top 3
Oh. and I have to mention the top sound quality. Even as it is a very layered album all is very audible.
-
I liked it at first then meh.
-
I was a bit surprised at first listen. I also have very vivid memories of what I was doing while listening. I went for about a 2.5 hour walk. It was a pretty warm day given that time of year here, but it was damp and misty out, and it was dusk. During the peak of Set 1, I happened to be walking in a giant park pretty much alone, since it was January, which was dimly lit by streetlights obscured by fog. It was kind of a perfect setting for the story, especially the part where Faythe sneaks into Ravenskill.
There were some parts I immediately liked. The intro to ALLB just wowed me, and still does today. I was kind of mad that they didn't keep going with that theme/style. I remember being horrified when the guitar solo for ANB ended...I wanted it to go on for another 5 minutes at least. ONW was a huge immediate hit.
I already knew I liked TGOM at that point, and I more mildly appreciated MOB.
However, I was a little bit uncomfortable with the rest of the album, because it was something different. But I got used to it quickly. It now ranks 4th on my all-time DT album list.
The thing about the album is the very best parts don't seem to go on for long enough. You get little samples of brilliance that this awesome band, despite how good things get, has never touched before. As I said, the intro to ALLB, the ANB guitar solo, that mega-epic 7-string guitar riff when Ravenskill picks up the pace that is good enough to base an entire song off of, etc. All of these were truly awesome moments of the album, and were also creatively unique and fresh, and yet the only last for a fleeting moment in the grand scheme of things. I even think some of the NOMAC tracks would have been really cool if they were turned into an actual track (I love that kind of ambient electronic music).
With that said, it's clear that this album got their creative juices flowing. They got to write some epic melodies and harmonies like they've never done before, and experimented with a number of new styles.
The album as a whole is, as Bosk says, easier to digest if you just say, "okay, I'm now going to listen to this Broadway musical soundtrack with a bit more classical influence than normal" instead of saying "Time to rock out to some run of the mill DT." I think once you adjust your expectations like this, it's easier to appreciate how much of a masterpiece this is, with so many layers of complexity, including the choir and symphony in the background.
But I'm still left with this frustration. Some of the coolest and most unique little clips of music they've written lately are very fleeting. Aside from the TA portions above, the DT12 easter egg is another one of them.
-
I liked when it came out, but the novelty wore off really quick, and i must have listened to it one or two times in this year.
Well considering this year is only 20 days old, once or twice in that time might be the average amount of listens. :P
:lol :lol :lol
-
I like it. I don't love it, but it's mostly good. Lots of good stuff, plenty of flaws too. Better than DT12, worse than all my top albums.
-
But I'm still left with this frustration. Some of the coolest and most unique little clips of music they've written lately are very fleeting. Aside from the TA portions above, the DT12 easter egg is another one of them.
YES! I even sent this email to JP under the heading "This has been bothering me for several months now, and I just have to get it off my chest":
2:22-2:44 in Ravenskill. One of the tastiest riffs in DT history. And you only give us…22 seconds of it, and it is never to be heard from again??? Why, John? WHY???
Okay, I feel better now having vented. Thanks for listening. :)
-
But I'm still left with this frustration. Some of the coolest and most unique little clips of music they've written lately are very fleeting. Aside from the TA portions above, the DT12 easter egg is another one of them.
YES! I even sent this email to JP under the heading "This has been bothering me for several months now, and I just have to get it off my chest":
2:22-2:44 in Ravenskill. One of the tastiest riffs in DT history. And you only give us…22 seconds of it, and it is never to be heard from again??? Why, John? WHY???
Okay, I feel better now having vented. Thanks for listening. :)
Too bad JLB stayed in Canada to record. If this were during the Awake sessions, he would have taken that one riff and made it into an entire song like Puppies on Acid --> Lie. :D
-
Easily amongst my favorite DT albums. I still listen to it quite frequently and it always puts me in a better mood.
Like somebody else said in this thread, it would be a shame not to have a live TA concert in our living rooms on blu-ray or dvd. :corn I hope they find a way to make it happen in the near future. I know, I know, everything is never enough! ;D
-
I'm still holding out hope for their Asian/Australian leg to feature a recording session.
I sort of hope they do more than just the live show, though. Would be cool to get a vocalist for each character and get people in costumes, stage props, etc. But also limiting JLB to Ahrys wouldn't be totally fair to him. Maybe they do this later as a full musical, and just do the Blu-Ray like a normal concert.
-
Yesss. Make it as camp as fuck who cares, I wanna see a sword fight on stage while petrucci rocks out!
-
:tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
It's the only Dream Theater album that I have never purchased. Listened to the singles, wasn't impressed. When I learned that the majority of the album was like the singles, I had no desire to buy it or listen to the whole thing.
Unbelievable. Maybe skip most of the album but take some time to enjoy at least part of the second half of Act I: LLB - ANB.....
Never listened a second from that?
-
I loved it immediately, and still do. It's in my top 3. Yeah, the story itself is a bit cheesy, but the music is just so awesome and James had one of his best performances IMO.
-
:tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
It's the only Dream Theater album that I have never purchased. Listened to the singles, wasn't impressed. When I learned that the majority of the album was like the singles, I had no desire to buy it or listen to the whole thing.
Unbelievable. Maybe skip most of the album but take some time to enjoy at least part of the second half of Act I: LLB - ANB.....
Never listened a second from that?
??? Why should he listen to the album when he has heard representative tracks from it and has concluded that they don't jibe with his interests/tastes?
-
It's hard to be a fan of prog rock, and not be able to get over cheesiness at the same time.
You know what's cheesey? Kiss basically making a living playing in costumes. Yeah, it's cheesey, but you get over it pretty quickly and learn to allow yourself to be entertained.
Bring on the costumes!!!
If Peter Gabriel can perform in this, JLB can certainly sport an Ahrys costume.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/0b/05/d5/0b05d5166dec9a073b061685cd5c2561.jpg)
-
Unfortunately, The Astonishing has made me seriously question my interest in any future endeavors of DT, and honestly, this makes me kinda sad. The album was very underwhelming for me, and my opinion has stayed the same for the past year. I tried to get into it but I just couldn't! I listened through the album perhaps 15 times total and I just don't care for the style.
Dream Theater has been my favorite band since I discovered them in 2004, and my favorite album is SFAM (just to give some context here). I really enjoy most their catalog, but if they release another album in the same vein as TA or DT12, I'm afraid that I might not be a fan of their music anymore.
Obviously it doesn't matter if I like their music or not in the grand scheme of things, but I am a very loyal person and it bothers me if I have to stop listening to my favorite band. I want to like their music, because I've liked nearly everything they've made. But for the first time I'm facing the reality that perhaps DT is not going to be my favorite band for much longer. Ugh, I hated typing that.
Sorry for throwing a pity party here, but this is a big deal for me. :sadpanda:
-
James can not play Arhys. He won't be able to finish the show. :lol
Obviously he should play Gabriel to be the hero of the show. However, his best vocal performances were as Nafaryus. Should he then wear a split costume with Gabriel on the left side and Nafaryus on the right?
Now that's cheesy. :rollin
-
There is so much music out there, I don't blame someone for not wanting to devote 2 hours to something when they already dislike the singles. I doubt anyone here has ever disliked a single on the radio and then proceeded to buy the whole album. :lol
As for me, I pretty much formed my opinion the first time I heard it and it hasn't changed since. Very unusual considering the density of the album and that my opinion on these things fluctuate. I also listened to it a lot when it was new and saw them play it live, so I gave it time to grow. My opinion has changed more on ADTOE than The Astonishing, for example.
Basically I think it's a solid album and I'm thrilled they tried something so ambitious this late in their career. It's the sort of album I'd expect fans to fantasize about, but they wouldn't actually make. The first disc is very good but it flounders in the second. The entire thing just falls just short of greatness, but this is its biggest downfall. For a 2 hour rock opera, just shy of greatness isn't going to keep me coming back. I don't have the time or motivation to devote my attention to that much music. Last time I listened to it was in October and I can't really see myself revisiting it much going forward.
-
Unfortunately, The Astonishing has made me seriously question my interest in any future endeavors of DT, and honestly, this makes me kinda sad. The album was very underwhelming for me, and my opinion has stayed the same for the past year. I tried to get into it but I just couldn't! I listened through the album perhaps 15 times total and I just don't care for the style.
Dream Theater has been my favorite band since I discovered them in 2004, and my favorite album is SFAM (just to give some context here). I really enjoy most their catalog, but if they release another album in the same vein as TA or DT12, I'm afraid that I might not be a fan of their music anymore.
Obviously it doesn't matter if I like their music or not in the grand scheme of things, but I am a very loyal person and it bothers me if I have to stop listening to my favorite band. I want to like their music, because I've liked nearly everything they've made. But for the first time I'm facing the reality that perhaps DT is not going to be my favorite band for much longer. Ugh, I hated typing that.
Sorry for throwing a pity party here, but this is a big deal for me. :sadpanda:
It's about exactly how I feel. They had become "Gods" for me. The next album is a crucial one for me. I want to fall in love again.
-
I still love it. It's a flawed album, one I think didn't quite hit the mark they were aiming for, but as it is, I still think it is pretty great. Just about all of disc 1 is great, and most of disc 2 ranges from very good to great, too. I still don't give a darn about the story (I have still never got out the booklet and read any lyrics). Songs like Ravenskill, Chosen, A New Beginning, Three Days, A Better Life, The Answer, Our New World, Moment of Betrayal and Act of Faythe are DT songs I know I'll still be listening to in 10 years. :hat
-
The only cringeworthy moment is on act 2, the part with the crying. I like the crickets, but the crying is so canned! I wonder where that sound sample came from? Aside from that, the whole album is music to the ears in the best way! :tup
-
The overly fake crying is bad, but I'm in the camp that cringes during the "music player" part. That part is musically cheesy enough, but still possible to ignore by itselg. "Music player" are just the wrong words there from a poetic standpoint.
-
after the first listening i was quite dissapointed, thought it was to mellow, after many, many listenings and two the astonishing live experiences, i really, really love it.
i just hope there will be a live dvd, one special event they anounce in advantage so i can be there :metal :metal :metal
-
The overly fake crying is bad, but I'm in the camp that cringes during the "music player" part. That part is musically cheesy enough, but still possible to ignore by itselg. "Music player" are just the wrong words there from a poetic standpoint.
This I don't get. Calling a music player with something high falluting to sound poetic would have been the cheesy choice.
It's a music player.
-
The Astonishing works really really well for me, viewing it as a musical. I still think the end is really rushed and could've been developed better, but the rest of the stuff is incredible (aside from a few unnecessary tracks such as Begin Again).
The thing is, as a Dream Theater album, it does not even compare to the others, just because it is so different, both musically and conceptually. So, yeah, I like it when I listen to it as a whole, but I'd never even compare it to the other stuff.
I think the biggest difference between the two "big" DT concept records is that SFAM is a Dream Theater album, but The Astonishing is a soundtrack to a story, composed by Dream Theater. And it's not the same thing.
-
The overly fake crying is bad, but I'm in the camp that cringes during the "music player" part. That part is musically cheesy enough, but still possible to ignore by itselg. "Music player" are just the wrong words there from a poetic standpoint.
This I don't get. Calling a music player with something high falluting to sound poetic would have been the cheesy choice.
It's a music player.
~ :slayer: My audio device :slayer: ~
-
It's not bad, but I was ultimately disappointed anyway. I would like it a lot more if it were shorter and really made each moment count - there's a pretty damn good fifty minute album hidden in there somewhere. I know, I know - story and all that - but I find the story to be pretty uninteresting, so yeah. The best songs on the album are really good, but there's a lot of stuff there that I don't care for.
I'd rank it near the bottom of my DT rankings, probably only above WDADU and (maybe) DT12. I don't dislike it per say, I just find it far too long for what it actually has to offer for me.
A New Beginning, Moment of Betrayal and Our New World are still super sweet though. :metal
-
The overly fake crying is bad, but I'm in the camp that cringes during the "music player" part. That part is musically cheesy enough, but still possible to ignore by itselg. "Music player" are just the wrong words there from a poetic standpoint.
This I don't get. Calling a music player with something high falluting to sound poetic would have been the cheesy choice.
It's a music player.
~ :slayer: My audio device :slayer: ~
What can this strange device be? :yarr
-
The overly fake crying is bad, but I'm in the camp that cringes during the "music player" part. That part is musically cheesy enough, but still possible to ignore by itselg. "Music player" are just the wrong words there from a poetic standpoint.
This I don't get. Calling a music player with something high falluting to sound poetic would have been the cheesy choice.
It's a music player.
~ :slayer: My audio device :slayer: ~
What can this strange device be? :yarr
In the instance I give contact to it, then it preceeds to create vibration in a way that human ears can comprehend them as any given type of noise
:yarr
-
It's still great.
-
Over time I softened my stance on it somewhat, but overall it still is too weak and hodgepodge to be called a solid album.
In a lot of ways it is what I was hoping DT would dare, and I hope this album isn't keeping them from daring more in the future. It would be shame if they just went back to their usual fare for the next album.
-
:tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
It's the only Dream Theater album that I have never purchased. Listened to the singles, wasn't impressed. When I learned that the majority of the album was like the singles, I had no desire to buy it or listen to the whole thing.
Unbelievable. Maybe skip most of the album but take some time to enjoy at least part of the second half of Act I: LLB - ANB.....
Never listened a second from that?
??? Why should he listen to the album when he has heard representative tracks from it and has concluded that they don't jibe with his interests/tastes?
NOT SURE IF SRS.
How many singles were there ? Like...three ?
And there's like 26 more songs on the album ?
Some of which are nothing like The Gift Of Music, Moment Of Betrayal or Our New World. . .
Imagine listening to Hardwired and not buying Hardwired To Self Destruct because you assumed it was all unmelodic thrashers.
-
Okay... And?
-
I asked first./
-
That was exactly my point. The 3 singles are not 1:1 representive to some highlights of the album (I think)...
-
That was exactly my point. The 3 singles are not 1:1 representive to some highlights of the album (I think)...
Yes it's a very varied album. There's not one other song like Our New World.
Plus the 3 singles are nothing like Three Days for example.
-
I was pretty tight-lipped about my thoughts on this album since the day I purchased and spun it for the first time, but that's mostly just because I don't really have a lot to say.
It's not a bad album by any means to warrant a lengthy rant, but it's certainly nothing to really boast over either. Maybe only five or six of the 34 tracks on this thing really stood-out to me, no matter how many chances I gave it. The album is just too long for it's own good. It drags at parts and overall left little impression on me. All that being said, I do admire the ambition behind it, and there are definitely some instrumental choices here and there that do intrigue me, but the album just has too much fluff for me to really consider going back to it. I want to believe that there's a pretty good 50 minute record here as opposed to a forgettable 2 hour long one. Not to mention that the story it has to tell just isn't compelling to me.
This is pretty much how I've felt about the album since my first listen, and honestly, in the year that it's been out, nothing much has changed my thoughts on it.
-
The album took a little longer to get used to, compared to other DT albums, but still loved it from day one untill now. It ranks #3 on my DT list and don't see it in a lower rank anytime soon. The albums 1 and 2, for me, are SFAM and SDOIT.
-
I think it's one of the most unique albums I've ever heard. More importantly, it's a really fun, happy, melodic experience. It's in my personal top tier of Dream Theater albums.
-
yes
-
After re-listening to songs like Illlumination Theory, I noticed a big improvement in approach on TA that I appreciate.
On Illumination Theory, it often feels like they wrote the whole song with Jordan recording the strings/choirs on keys as his main parts, then just got a real orchestra/choir to do the same thing on top of it. On TA, however, almost any time you hear the orchestra/choir, Jordan's main part is something else like piano. That's how I always approached writing with an orchestra in mind, and most other bands too, so I'm glad Jordan isn't literally just having them play his parts on top of him. Especially since his piano parts accent the rest of the song so well and add such lovely atmosphere to it.
-
Loved it on day one, and still do. I think it'll go down in history as one of their masterpieces. I haven't listened to it in about a month now, but that's just because of so much other new music that I'm trying to keep up with.
My only complaints are the nomac tracks (which I don't include in my playlist), and some of the sound effects sound cheesy and non-realistic. The main one being Nafaryus crying at the beginning of Losing Faythe. It doesn't sound at all like a fellow his age crying. It doesn't even sound like crying. It sounds like some fat fuck clown having a chuckle...
Compositionally speaking, I love it.
-
Loved it on day one, and still do. I think it'll go down in history as one of their masterpieces. I haven't listened to it in about a month now, but that's just because of so much other new music that I'm trying to keep up with.
My only complaints are the nomac tracks (which I don't include in my playlist), and some of the sound effects sound cheesy and non-realistic. The main one being Nafaryus crying at the beginning of Losing Faythe. It doesn't sound at all like a fellow his age crying. It doesn't even sound like crying. It sounds like some fat fuck clown having a chuckle...
Compositionally speaking, I love it.
All. Of. This.
-
I was open to it to begin with as I loved the single but soon disliked it. That hasn't changed.
I very much admire that they created something different for them but think very badly of many aspects of the form. The premise, plot, style and length of the thing leave me wondering, now more than ever, how the band I love could have made such decisions. I never listen to it now and am deeply suspicious of the judgements of JP as band leader now. So much so that I doubt I'll buy their next album on release. And believe me, that is a HUGE statement for me.
-
The premise, plot, style and length of the thing leave me wondering, now more than ever, how the band I love could have made such decisions.
Because they wanted to.
-
The premise, plot, style and length of the thing leave me wondering, now more than ever, how the band I love could have made such decisions.
Because they wanted to.
And isn't that the whole point of creating ambitious music? To challenge fans, to not go into a typical bubble/formula of creating songs, to do something that no one would think they would do at this stage in their careers? To be bold and daring and risk their reputations of musicians on the line? That alone is good enough for me put The Astonishing in my fave five albums in 2016. Sure, certain parts of the album was not the greatest, but they had a fair amount of great enjoyable standalone songs that I still blast on my regular playlist to this day.
-
:tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn :tdwn
It's the only Dream Theater album that I have never purchased. Listened to the singles, wasn't impressed. When I learned that the majority of the album was like the singles, I had no desire to buy it or listen to the whole thing.
Unbelievable. Maybe skip most of the album but take some time to enjoy at least part of the second half of Act I: LLB - ANB.....
Never listened a second from that?
??? Why should he listen to the album when he has heard representative tracks from it and has concluded that they don't jibe with his interests/tastes?
Exactly, and I might add that I have watched some live footage on occasion to see what their tour production looked like, and maybe sampled a bit of the album here or there (whatever song was released with Lzzy Hale). But it's not my thing. I absolutely love Dream Theater, and this forum has me going back and listening to a lot of their albums. But I don't have to love The Astonishing to remain a fan.
-
I loved it on day one, and still do.
I think it's a staggering achievement, to compose all of the music and lyrics like that for a (more or less) focused and cohesive story, and yet not like a typical prog metal concept album, but something different, more like a musical.
Is it perfect? No, but the daring to achieve something so different from the band is also inspiring, regardless of your opinion on the outcome.
"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?" - Robert Browning
-
The premise, plot, style and length of the thing leave me wondering, now more than ever, how the band I love could have made such decisions.
Because they wanted to.
And isn't that the whole point of creating ambitious music? To challenge fans, to not go into a typical bubble/formula of creating songs, to do something that no one would think they would do at this stage in their careers? To be bold and daring and risk their reputations of musicians on the line? That alone is good enough for me put The Astonishing in my fave five albums in 2016. Sure, certain parts of the album was not the greatest, but they had a fair amount of great enjoyable standalone songs that I still blast on my regular playlist to this day.
I think it's great they did something atypical for them. Really do. But doing what they wanted to do doesn't improve it for me.
2112 wasn't a mind blowing concept to begin with. :lol
-
The premise, plot, style and length of the thing leave me wondering, now more than ever, how the band I love could have made such decisions.
Because they wanted to.
And isn't that the whole point of creating ambitious music? To challenge fans, to not go into a typical bubble/formula of creating songs, to do something that no one would think they would do at this stage in their careers? To be bold and daring and risk their reputations of musicians on the line? That alone is good enough for me put The Astonishing in my fave five albums in 2016. Sure, certain parts of the album was not the greatest, but they had a fair amount of great enjoyable standalone songs that I still blast on my regular playlist to this day.
I agree completely. Releasing new albums is about expanding your horizons as a band, and DT have always done that, even if the outcome isn't always the best (BC&SL, I' looking at you). Of course they keep inside some stylistic boundaries that sometimes I wish they expanded more, but, if we see the bigger picture (pun intended :biggrin: ) they don't have to albums that sound the same, and we can't say the same thing of other bands that have been around for less time than DT. That's why they haven't become a nostlgia act, and I don't see them becoming one.
-
All I can say is I "liked" it upon release, "liked" it a bit more after seeing the Radio City performance, but haven't had any urge to listen to it since. That must say something. :tdwn
-
All I can say is I "liked" it upon release, "liked" it a bit more after seeing the Radio City performance, but haven't had any urge to listen to it since. That must say something. :tdwn
I don't think so. I love the shit out of Images and Words. Up until the Astonishing it was my favorite DT album. I haven't listened to it in at least two years.
-
Great record, but it took several listens before I came to that conclusion. I appreciate the shorter songs, the efficiency--and I appreciate that the brilliant moments are shorter because those moments truly are brilliant, and I'm left wanting more, which is a sign of good art, IMO.
The weakness: the lyrics. There are some good moments, but there are just as many cringe-worthy moments. I would have liked to see JP take the lyrics through another round or two of edits, especially with a 3rd party. No writer on Earth, whether he writes verse or prose, is a good self editor.
-
I gave CD2 a spin on a road trip alone...And guess what, I cried between heaven's cove and hymn...This album has a vibe that stabs me, plus the story...
I don't know how many listen it will take to have less effect :)
-
Still one of DT's most ambitious and interesting albums. Haters gonna hate.
-
Still one of DT's most ambitious and interesting albums. Haters gonna hate.
Agree.
-
I gave CD2 a spin on a road trip alone...And guess what, I cried between heaven's cove and hymn...This album has a vibe that stabs me, plus the story...
I don't know how many listen it will take to have less effect :)
I love disc 2. My initial impression was that disc one was better, but I'm not sure if that was just because it was so much longer. Disc 2 seems to just fly by, but now I think it's every bit as good as part 1. After a year my love for this album hasn't died, hasn't faded, so I think it's going to be among my very favorite Dream Theater albums from here on out. As for the story and lyrics, I wasn't initially sold. Today, if I just sat down and read the lyrics without any of the music in mind at all, I still might think some of them were cringe-worthy or whatever. But at some point when I was starting to fall in love with the music of the album, I decided to just embrace it. And it worked for me. Music has been an immensely important part of my life, and so I can relate to it very strongly on that level.
-
I was really impressed with it when it came out. I loved about 1/3rd of it, liked 1/3rd and was okay with the rest. It became a chore to find enough time to sit through the entirety of it. It never felt right to take it piecemeal.
I actually love more of it now than I did then. I probably didn't listen to it for six months or so, but during the holidays I was cooking and I knew I'd be in the kitchen for hours so I put on TA. It felt great and I joyfully sang along with way more than I thought I would. The instrumental passages are still :omg:
-
I enjoy about 5/8ths of it :neverusethis:
-
I'm like the only one that enjoys the Music Player part. JLBs harmonies and melodies are beautiful.
-
I'm like the only one that enjoys the Music Player part. JLBs harmonies and melodies are beautiful.
I like it. :)
-
I never had too much problems with it either. My gripe with TA is in other places.
-
Also, I enjoy Begin Again, especially the ending.
This album is one of JLBs finest albums.
-
I'm like the only one that enjoys the Music Player part. JLBs harmonies and melodies are beautiful.
I like it very much because it speaks to me. I am plugged in to my music player half the time, and I get the sentiment of how listening to music could change one's life.
"My music player
MY PRIVATE PARADISE"
Truth.
-
"MY PRIVATE PARADISE"
faythe we all know you crank that shit in your earpods, everybody hears your music
-
She's using in-ears. ;)
-
Sucked then,sucks now.
-
Sucked then,sucks now.
Does it suck, or is it just not your thing? I wouldn't attend an Iron Maiden show if you gave me a free ticket, but I wouldn't say they suck.
-
Sucked then,sucks now.
Does it suck, or is it just not your thing? I wouldn't attend an Iron Maiden show if you gave me a free ticket, but I wouldn't say they suck.
You are missing out on not accepting that ticket :biggrin:
-
Sucked then,sucks now.
Good insight. Thank you for taking your time.
-
One interesting aspect to TA is that quite a few people seem to have *made* TA an album they like by creating an abridged version. I guess it's the question of artistic integrity (i.e. "one should listen to TA in its entirety, since it's what the artist intended") vs "I'd rather have something I enjoy".
-
I enjoy the whole album, but I want to have more chances to listen to it, and the abridged version help to save time. I skipped the songs I enjoy the least, there aren't on the albums songs that I dislike so much that I would never ever listen to them even if paid for.
-
One interesting aspect to TA is that quite a few people seem to have *made* TA an album they like by creating an abridged version. I guess it's the question of artistic integrity (i.e. "one should listen to TA in its entirety, since it's what the artist intended") vs "I'd rather have something I enjoy".
Yea, but there is also the reality of an album being over 2 hours long and there is only so much time in a day to listen to music in our busy lives. While I don't have an abridged personal version, I do enjoy listening to the album in chunks.
-
I don't really worry about what the artist intended. Like cramx3, I tend to listen to in chunks as well, and I find that disc 1 still gets most of the play with me, with a few select tracks from disc 2.
-
I really dug this from first listen, and even more now. It has grown well for me and is still my goto for a nice 2 or 3 hour gym workout. That's probably because it hasn't reached the spin cycle of other DT offerings yet. As others have said, the only part that really annoys me is that 'crying'. I just think it could have been portrayed much better with a more, hmmmm, subtle approach. I always thought the "mother/baby" spoken word and kiss in "Goodnight Kiss" was done perfectly and makes that piece that much better! Other than that, TA is still :tup for me.
2112 wasn't a mind blowing concept to begin with. :lol
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, let's not start talking crazy here. ;)
-
Got some new decent studio monitors, what better way to break them in than with The Astonishing :metal
-
I was looking at the DT Wikpedia page and running down the Discography.
There are no sales totals for The Astonishing. Anyone have any idea what the number is approximately after one year?
-
Sucked then,sucks now.
Good insight. Thank you for taking your time.
Yeah why bother posting.
-
The first few times I knew there was something there but it took me a little while to get the music and once that happened I loved it.
I haven't listened that much in the past few months as I wanted the new Neal Morse Band album to sink in but it kept me wanting to go back to The Astonishing as I love it so much more than Similitude Of A Dream.
I just threw it on the other day and those feelings of "this is great" came back especially with JP's solo on A New Beginning. That is just epic and I saw the show 2x and that solo was easily one of the best things I have ever seen at a DT show.
The story I couldn't really care less about, yes the crying part is kind of funny to me but you can't accuse DT of just resting on their laurels as they really created something different than anything they have ever done.
I still get angry at the "worst album ever" comments on FB or wherever but I have to just let it be, I love it so that should be good enough. But I still get mad. :angry:
-
I was looking at the DT Wikpedia page and running down the Discography.
There are no sales totals for The Astonishing. Anyone have any idea what the number is approximately after one year?
Most of the Wikipedia sales listed there are first-week sales (at least from SC onwards). I remember finding a source that listed exact sales for the first three weeks of each album, but I'll have to go find it again.
EDIT: Found it!
https://www.mediatraffic.de/albums-week06-2016.htm - 95K (13/2)
https://www.mediatraffic.de/albums-week07-2016.htm - 29K (20/2)
https://www.mediatraffic.de/albums-week08-2016.htm - 23K (27/2)
https://www.mediatraffic.de/albums-week09-2016.htm - 17K (05/3)
Total - 164K from the first four weeks on this chart
-
...I wanted the new Neal Morse Band album to sink in but it kept me wanting to go back to The Astonishing as I love it so much more than Similitude Of A Dream.
The same exact thing happened to me. I was even considering starting a TA vs TSOAD thread, but decided not to, since it would definitely start the MP vs MM war again.
And not trying to sound harsh to MP in any way, but the truth is he overhyped the crap out of the album (probably trying to overshadow TA?), and even though I've learned to not trust MP's comments about any of his new albums/bands, because he ALWAYS says _________ (insert album name here) is the best album he's done in the recent years, the album ended up being disappointing to me.
I'm a big Neal Morse fan and this was very promising, but it just felt plain and simple in comparison to TA. Of course, all the MP fanboys talked trash on TA and praised TSOAD, but, imo, TA is miles better than the NM album. The only thing they did better than TA, I think, was having more than one vocalist, and probably some of the lyrics. But, other than that, TA is a much better album that hits much more ground musically. Anyone agree?
-
I prefer TA, but I can't say that it is "much better" than TSOAD, as that is a fantastic album as well.
-
The music player is a miss lyrically but musically it is fantastic. Great buildup and comes at just the right time.
As far as an abridged version of Astonishing, I prefer to listen to the album as it was intended by the artist whether I like it or not. I might enjoy my own edit more but I'd constantly be aware that I'm listening to a "fake" version.
-
...I wanted the new Neal Morse Band album to sink in but it kept me wanting to go back to The Astonishing as I love it so much more than Similitude Of A Dream.
The same exact thing happened to me. I was even considering starting a TA vs TSOAD thread, but decided not to, since it would definitely start the MP vs MM war again.
And not trying to sound harsh to MP in any way, but the truth is he overhyped the crap out of the album (probably trying to overshadow TA?), and even though I've learned to not trust MP's comments about any of his new albums/bands, because he ALWAYS says _________ (insert album name here) is the best album he's done in the recent years, the album ended up being disappointing to me.
To MP's credit, I don't find TA much better than TSOAD, I think they both are pretty bad!
Also, I haven't followed much of what he's said recently, but he really doesn't say " _______ is the best album I've done" that much. I think it was when 8V came out and he said it was the best album DT had done or put it on par with Scenes (I could be wrong, maybe it was ToT) and he specified he doesn't say that about every album. That's true. He didn't say that about 6DOIT and I don't think he said that about SC and definitely not BCASL (although the latter he said was like a mixture of I&W and two other albums which was way off the mark). I haven't kept up with his recent projects and what he says about them but i dont think he normally says "this is the best."
I'm a big Neal Morse fan and this was very promising, but it just felt plain and simple in comparison to TA. Of course, all the MP fanboys talked trash on TA and praised TSOAD, but, imo, TA is miles better than the NM album. The only thing they did better than TA, I think, was having more than one vocalist, and probably some of the lyrics. But, other than that, TA is a much better album that hits much more ground musically. Anyone agree?
Well, I've never been into Neal Morse so obviously this is biased but even though I don't like TA there are still some cool moments on it.
With Neal Morse, I don't care for his voice and especially not his guitarist's voice. The whole mood of the album seems very weird and not befitting of the story.
With TA, they really got the mood down and really fits the overall concept...it just happens to be a mood I don't care for.
-
...I wanted the new Neal Morse Band album to sink in but it kept me wanting to go back to The Astonishing as I love it so much more than Similitude Of A Dream.
The same exact thing happened to me. I was even considering starting a TA vs TSOAD thread, but decided not to, since it would definitely start the MP vs MM war again.
And not trying to sound harsh to MP in any way, but the truth is he overhyped the crap out of the album (probably trying to overshadow TA?), and even though I've learned to not trust MP's comments about any of his new albums/bands, because he ALWAYS says _________ (insert album name here) is the best album he's done in the recent years, the album ended up being disappointing to me.
I'm a big Neal Morse fan and this was very promising, but it just felt plain and simple in comparison to TA. Of course, all the MP fanboys talked trash on TA and praised TSOAD, but, imo, TA is miles better than the NM album. The only thing they did better than TA, I think, was having more than one vocalist, and probably some of the lyrics. But, other than that, TA is a much better album that hits much more ground musically. Anyone agree?
I agree with this almost 100% - I just disagree about the vocals. I am so glad that they did not use multiple singers on TA. We're on the same page with everything else. I did buy into MP's hype tiny bit, but not enough to be disappointed. I think it is a good album, but far from the best of MP's career, and the guitar player sounds way too much like JP.
-
...I wanted the new Neal Morse Band album to sink in but it kept me wanting to go back to The Astonishing as I love it so much more than Similitude Of A Dream.
The same exact thing happened to me. I was even considering starting a TA vs TSOAD thread, but decided not to, since it would definitely start the MP vs MM war again.
And not trying to sound harsh to MP in any way, but the truth is he overhyped the crap out of the album (probably trying to overshadow TA?), and even though I've learned to not trust MP's comments about any of his new albums/bands, because he ALWAYS says _________ (insert album name here) is the best album he's done in the recent years, the album ended up being disappointing to me.
I'm a big Neal Morse fan and this was very promising, but it just felt plain and simple in comparison to TA. Of course, all the MP fanboys talked trash on TA and praised TSOAD, but, imo, TA is miles better than the NM album. The only thing they did better than TA, I think, was having more than one vocalist, and probably some of the lyrics. But, other than that, TA is a much better album that hits much more ground musically. Anyone agree?
I'm not sure I do. I am a big fan of The Astonishing, but as more time goes on, the more I think TSOAD might be better; that one has no weak spots, while disc 2 of TA tends to meander quite a bit. And I would say the highs on the two albums are about equal.
Also, while Portnoy loves to hype his albums, he never says stuff like he did about TSOAD. I am not sure I agree that it's best album he and Neal have done together (hard to top a couple of those Transatlantic albums), it is still pretty freaking awesome, IMO.
I agree with this almost 100% - I just disagree about the vocals. I am so glad that they did not use multiple singers on TA. We're on the same page with everything else. I did buy into MP's hype tiny bit, but not enough to be disappointed. I think it is a good album, but far from the best of MP's career, and the guitar player sounds way too much like JP.
Why is Eric Gillette being a player similar to Petrucci an issue? As a big Neal fan, we've never really gotten to hear his music with a guitarist this technically proficient (as great as Roine Stolt is, he is more of a David Gilmour or Steve Howe-type player, not a shredder), so it's getting the best of both worlds. Plus, Gillette never overplays to where you think, woah, slow down there. :lol In this case, him being not as fast a player as Petrucci works to his benefit, as he able to channel his style while not sound like a clone. When you listen to stuff like the end of Sloth, that is totally Gillette's own style. Gillette seems to have a more bluesy vibe to his playing than Petrucci does.
-
I agree with this almost 100% - I just disagree about the vocals. I am so glad that they did not use multiple singers on TA. We're on the same page with everything else. I did buy into MP's hype tiny bit, but not enough to be disappointed. I think it is a good album, but far from the best of MP's career, and the guitar player sounds way too much like JP.
Why is Eric Gillette being a player similar to Petrucci an issue? As a big Neal fan, we've never really gotten to hear his music with a guitarist this technically proficient (as great as Roine Stolt is, he is more of a David Gilmour or Steve Howe-type player, not a shredder), so it's getting the best of both worlds. Plus, Gillette never overplays to where you think, woah, slow down there. :lol In this case, him being not as fast a player as Petrucci works to his benefit, as he able to channel his style while not sound like a clone. When you listen to stuff like the end of Sloth, that is totally Gillette's own style. Gillette seems to have a more bluesy vibe to his playing than Petrucci does.
It's just the way that I feel about it. I don't think that he sounds like Petrucci 100% of the time, but overall I do think he sounds like a clone. I find it distracting. There are other guitar players that I have heard that remind me of Petrucci, but not to this extent. I wouldn't like it if this guy was just in some random band. As it is, I feel like MP should have listened to this guy and said to NM, "there's no way this guy is joining the band."
I also find the overall Dream Theater isms in the album distracting. Some of it sounds nothing like DT, but there are parts that sound like they come straight from a DT album. I haven't heard all of Neal's solo material, but what I have heard in the past didn't sound this much like DT. I don't think it's only the guitar player to blame. I think MP credited Bill for some or at least one of the parts I thought sounded too much like DT. Again, if this was a random prog metal band, it would bother me. That it's a band that Mike is in kind of baffles me. I think he should have said "no, we're not doing this, let's write something else for this section."
All of the above is just how I feel, and obviously I know that others have a different perspective, and that's fine too.
-
I find it really interesting that most people here on DTF seem to prefer disk 1. For me, disk 2 is actually my favorite, the run from Moment Of Betrayal through My Last Farewell is one of the best things DT have ever done imo, whereas disk 1 contains my least favorite songs on the album (Brother Can You Hear Me and The Road To Revolution, I'm just not a big fan of that theme).
-
I still get chills when I hear the opening to The Gift of Music. I'm almost (this) close to it surpassing my favorite album.
-
Random thought: there should be a mashup called "Brother Can You Not Me"
-
I agree with this almost 100% - I just disagree about the vocals. I am so glad that they did not use multiple singers on TA. We're on the same page with everything else. I did buy into MP's hype tiny bit, but not enough to be disappointed. I think it is a good album, but far from the best of MP's career, and the guitar player sounds way too much like JP.
Why is Eric Gillette being a player similar to Petrucci an issue? As a big Neal fan, we've never really gotten to hear his music with a guitarist this technically proficient (as great as Roine Stolt is, he is more of a David Gilmour or Steve Howe-type player, not a shredder), so it's getting the best of both worlds. Plus, Gillette never overplays to where you think, woah, slow down there. :lol In this case, him being not as fast a player as Petrucci works to his benefit, as he able to channel his style while not sound like a clone. When you listen to stuff like the end of Sloth, that is totally Gillette's own style. Gillette seems to have a more bluesy vibe to his playing than Petrucci does.
It's just the way that I feel about it. I don't think that he sounds like Petrucci 100% of the time, but overall I do think he sounds like a clone. I find it distracting. There are other guitar players that I have heard that remind me of Petrucci, but not to this extent. I wouldn't like it if this guy was just in some random band. As it is, I feel like MP should have listened to this guy and said to NM, "there's no way this guy is joining the band."
I also find the overall Dream Theater isms in the album distracting. Some of it sounds nothing like DT, but there are parts that sound like they come straight from a DT album. I haven't heard all of Neal's solo material, but what I have heard in the past didn't sound this much like DT. I don't think it's only the guitar player to blame. I think MP credited Bill for some or at least one of the parts I thought sounded too much like DT. Again, if this was a random prog metal band, it would bother me. That it's a band that Mike is in kind of baffles me. I think he should have said "no, we're not doing this, let's write something else for this section."
All of the above is just how I feel, and obviously I know that others have a different perspective, and that's fine too.
Well, if that's how you feel, it's how you feel, and that is fine, but to address a couple things:
-Neal Morse Band is NOT by any stretch of the imagination a prog metal band. Neal is a rock guy, not metal. While he does slip in the occasional heavy riff, it is pretty rare. Call it semantics, but it does a discredit to Morse, Portnoy and the rest of the band to imply that they are another prog metal trying to sound like Dream Theater, when they aren't even in that subgenre. Neal Morse Band is prog ROCK, not metal.
-With the exception of a few Gillette solos (like the one in The Man in the Iron Cage), I cannot think of anything on TSOAD that sounds like it would be on a DT album. Maybe little bits of The Battle, with its syncopated craziness, but even in that song, the main Gershwin-inspired piano theme doesn't sound like anything DT would do.
-
I have never heard any iteration of Neal Morse's band's play anything that ever made me think, "Oh, wow. That sounds SO Dream Theater."
-
I have never heard any iteration of Neal Morse's band's play anything that ever made me think, "Oh, wow. That sounds SO Dream Theater."
Maybe not but MP does have a recognisable style.
I visited Dad once and he was playing a NM album which featured Portnoy and without even knowing who the artist was I asked if it was Neal Morse since I knew it wasn't DT
but MP's style is just so instantly recognisable.
-
I have never heard any iteration of Neal Morse's band's play anything that ever made me think, "Oh, wow. That sounds SO Dream Theater."
Well, Rudess did have that one solo on the Question Mark album...;)
-
I agree with this almost 100% - I just disagree about the vocals. I am so glad that they did not use multiple singers on TA. We're on the same page with everything else. I did buy into MP's hype tiny bit, but not enough to be disappointed. I think it is a good album, but far from the best of MP's career, and the guitar player sounds way too much like JP.
Why is Eric Gillette being a player similar to Petrucci an issue? As a big Neal fan, we've never really gotten to hear his music with a guitarist this technically proficient (as great as Roine Stolt is, he is more of a David Gilmour or Steve Howe-type player, not a shredder), so it's getting the best of both worlds. Plus, Gillette never overplays to where you think, woah, slow down there. :lol In this case, him being not as fast a player as Petrucci works to his benefit, as he able to channel his style while not sound like a clone. When you listen to stuff like the end of Sloth, that is totally Gillette's own style. Gillette seems to have a more bluesy vibe to his playing than Petrucci does.
It's just the way that I feel about it. I don't think that he sounds like Petrucci 100% of the time, but overall I do think he sounds like a clone. I find it distracting. There are other guitar players that I have heard that remind me of Petrucci, but not to this extent. I wouldn't like it if this guy was just in some random band. As it is, I feel like MP should have listened to this guy and said to NM, "there's no way this guy is joining the band."
I also find the overall Dream Theater isms in the album distracting. Some of it sounds nothing like DT, but there are parts that sound like they come straight from a DT album. I haven't heard all of Neal's solo material, but what I have heard in the past didn't sound this much like DT. I don't think it's only the guitar player to blame. I think MP credited Bill for some or at least one of the parts I thought sounded too much like DT. Again, if this was a random prog metal band, it would bother me. That it's a band that Mike is in kind of baffles me. I think he should have said "no, we're not doing this, let's write something else for this section."
All of the above is just how I feel, and obviously I know that others have a different perspective, and that's fine too.
Well, if that's how you feel, it's how you feel, and that is fine, but to address a couple things:
-Neal Morse Band is NOT by any stretch of the imagination a prog metal band. Neal is a rock guy, not metal. While he does slip in the occasional heavy riff, it is pretty rare. Call it semantics, but it does a discredit to Morse, Portnoy and the rest of the band to imply that they are another prog metal trying to sound like Dream Theater, when they aren't even in that subgenre. Neal Morse Band is prog ROCK, not metal.
-With the exception of a few Gillette solos (like the one in The Man in the Iron Cage), I cannot think of anything on TSOAD that sounds like it would be on a DT album. Maybe little bits of The Battle, with its syncopated craziness, but even in that song, the main Gershwin-inspired piano theme doesn't sound like anything DT would do.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought the Neal Morse Band was a prog metal band. I just meant that if I was hearing it from a prog metal band, it would bother me in that situation too so it isn't that it only bothers me when it's a band that MP is in. Also, even if I was calling them a prog metal band, it wouldn't be an insult coming from me, as I generally prefer prog metal over prog rock. Not always, but usually. :)
I don't think that Neal Morse has any desire to sound like Dream Theater, probably wasn't much influenced by them, and it probably doesn't enter his thoughts when he is writing music. This album just has parts that sound too much like DT for me. I'm not commenting at all on previous NM albums, but I suppose maybe I could have been a little bit clearer.
So now I'll try to be. It's only Similitude that I'm talking about, and I don't think the band, as a whole, is "trying" to sound like DT. Maybe the guitar player is, or he isn't anymore but perhaps he tried too long to sound like JP that now he can't help it. I don't know the background of the bass and keyboard players, maybe they have some DT influence that they brought to the table unconsciously, or maybe it's all the guitar player alone. Though I could have sworn MP said Bill wrote a DT sounding part in the play through he did on Facebook. Maybe some of it came from MP. I don't know. But again, the last thing I think is that Neal Morse is trying to sound like DT.
For me, it's not only guitar solos that reminded me of DT; it's guitar leads, certain parts of songs... the Overture has DT all over it to me. I know I'm not the only person who feels this way, but maybe I am the only one here that does. :)
-
I have never heard any iteration of Neal Morse's band's play anything that ever made me think, "Oh, wow. That sounds SO Dream Theater."
Well, Rudess did have that one solo on the Question Mark album...;)
Oh, right. Forgot about that. But then again, I usually skip that album and only listen to the good ones, so...
-
It grew on me for the first listens and after a while became my favorite Dream Theater album. Seeing it live twice only reinforced it's hold on me.
Still love it, still think it's the Dream Theater I hold dearest.
I do love Images and Words and I do cherise the memory of seeing them live on that tour. I will thoroughly enjoy seeing Images and Words and beyond tour but would actually rather see the Astonishing live for a third time. That is how much I love it.
-
Maybe it's just me, but I don't find TSOAD that interesting musically. There were just a few "wow" moments for me on the album, TA has much more of the "wow" factor to me. I still like the album for what it is, a double concept album with great writing and playing, and still have it full on my phone to see if I like it more on the next listen, but it hasn't happened yet :-\
I haven't kept up with his recent projects and what he says about them but i dont think he normally says "this is the best."
...The whole mood of the album seems very weird and not befitting of the story.
He doesn't say that all the time as in "Look, I've made the album of my career here" (which he did say for this album), but he's always overhyping his new albums/bands. He did that for AMOB, TWD, MA... and the results aren't always that good, just look at AMOB :facepalm:
With this one, though, he just went nuts with the "This is better than anything I've ever done" thing and, to me, he was just trying to take advantage of the big split TA made on the DT fanbase, as in "If you didn't like their album, don't worry, we've come up with a much better one that you'll definitely like because I was the soul of DT, not them." (of course he didn't say that, but that's the way it looks to me).
About the album itself, the songs have a smooth flow, but, to me, it doesn't have too much interesting parts to justify a making a double album. Even the songs I like more have parts that just don't work there. For example: I really like "So Far Gone" untill the "you can turn, you're not too far part" and I just loose it.
I agree with this almost 100% - I just disagree about the vocals. I am so glad that they did not use multiple singers on TA. We're on the same page with everything else. I did buy into MP's hype tiny bit, but not enough to be disappointed. I think it is a good album, but far from the best of MP's career, and the guitar player sounds way too much like JP.
I'm not on the "they should've had multiple singers for each character" boat, I think James nailed it perfectly and TA is one of his best albums vocally. What I'm saying is that having a couple more voices on your band can be a great advantage. Look at SFAM, for example. James sang 99% of the vocals, but still JP and MP had great backing vocal moments, like in Fatal Tragedy or Beyond This Life. That's one of the very few things I miss of the MP era, the extra vocals by them, even though Mike went WAY TOO FAR with his vocals on DT (ROOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGHHHHHHHHHHHH) :facepalm:
I wish JP recorded backing vocals on the studio albums again, and that his vocals weren't as buried on the live mixes as they are now.
I am not sure I agree that it's best album he and Neal have done together (hard to top a couple of those Transatlantic albums), it is still pretty freaking awesome, IMO.
Very hard to top The Whirlwind and Sola Scriptura :D
About Eric sounding too much like JP, I have to agree with Vakaren, the guy is just another JP clone. He does have his own style, and is a very skilled player, but his approach to the instrument is way too similar to JP's and uses the same guitars :lol. Even Portnoy said something similar:
"BRACE YOURSELVES FOR A NEW GUITAR HERO IN ERIC GILLETTE! HE IS THE NEW KING OF SHRED AND FEEL! HE REMINDS ME A LOT OF MY OLD PARTNER IN CRIME (IF YOU KNOW WHO I MEAN!)"
- MIKE PORTNOY
Source: https://www.ericgillettemusic.com/blog/mike-portnoy-weighs-in-on-the-neal-morse-bands-guitarist-eric-gillette
Phew! That was a long post, guys. Sorry for taking the thread a bit off topic with my thoughts on TSOAD vs TA :biggrin:
-
I didn't mean to imply that I thought the Neal Morse Band was a prog metal band. I just meant that if I was hearing it from a prog metal band, it would bother me in that situation too so it isn't that it only bothers me when it's a band that MP is in. Also, even if I was calling them a prog metal band, it wouldn't be an insult coming from me, as I generally prefer prog metal over prog rock. Not always, but usually. :)
I don't think that Neal Morse has any desire to sound like Dream Theater, probably wasn't much influenced by them, and it probably doesn't enter his thoughts when he is writing music. This album just has parts that sound too much like DT for me. I'm not commenting at all on previous NM albums, but I suppose maybe I could have been a little bit clearer.
So now I'll try to be. It's only Similitude that I'm talking about, and I don't think the band, as a whole, is "trying" to sound like DT. Maybe the guitar player is, or he isn't anymore but perhaps he tried too long to sound like JP that now he can't help it. I don't know the background of the bass and keyboard players, maybe they have some DT influence that they brought to the table unconsciously, or maybe it's all the guitar player alone. Though I could have sworn MP said Bill wrote a DT sounding part in the play through he did on Facebook. Maybe some of it came from MP. I don't know. But again, the last thing I think is that Neal Morse is trying to sound like DT.
For me, it's not only guitar solos that reminded me of DT; it's guitar leads, certain parts of songs... the Overture has DT all over it to me. I know I'm not the only person who feels this way, but maybe I am the only one here that does. :)
You might be. :P
We can agree to disagree on this, regardless. :tup :tup
I have never heard any iteration of Neal Morse's band's play anything that ever made me think, "Oh, wow. That sounds SO Dream Theater."
Well, Rudess did have that one solo on the Question Mark album...;)
Oh, right. Forgot about that. But then again, I usually skip that album and only listen to the good ones, so...
...so you are admitting to epic fail once again in regards to that record. :P
Very hard to top The Whirlwind and Sola Scriptura :D
Of the albums Neal and Portnoy have done together, I think The Whirlwind is in the top 5 (along with the first two TA albums and the two Neal Morse Band records).
Sola Scriptura is middle of the pack for me as far as Neal solo/NMB albums go. Better than Testimony, It's Not Too Late, Lifeline and Songs from November, but cannot touch The Similitude..., ?, One, Grand Experiment or T2. I think it's in the same tier with his self-titled debut (which I still think is very underrated) and Momentum.
-
It grew on me for the first listens and after a while became my favorite Dream Theater album. Seeing it live twice only reinforced it's hold on me.
Still love it, still think it's the Dream Theater I hold dearest.
I do love Images and Words and I do cherise the memory of seeing them live on that tour. I will thoroughly enjoy seeing Images and Words and beyond tour but would actually rather see the Astonishing live for a third time. That is how much I love it.
I like it better than Images and Words too. :) I am excited for the I&W tour, but I too would like to see another Astonishing leg (and especially DVD).
-
Maybe it's just me, but I don't find TSOAD that interesting musically. There were just a few "wow" moments for me on the album, TA has much more of the "wow" factor to me. I still like the album for what it is, a double concept album with great writing and playing, and still have it full on my phone to see if I like it more on the next listen, but it hasn't happened yet.
I'm with you on this. I try not to compare them too much because The Astonishing is just so different and it has become one of my favorite albums, and I'd rather listen to other albums on their own.
I agree with this almost 100% - I just disagree about the vocals. I am so glad that they did not use multiple singers on TA. We're on the same page with everything else. I did buy into MP's hype tiny bit, but not enough to be disappointed. I think it is a good album, but far from the best of MP's career, and the guitar player sounds way too much like JP.
I'm not on the "they should've had multiple singers for each character" boat, I think James nailed it perfectly and TA is one of his best albums vocally. What I'm saying is that having a couple more voices on your band can be a great advantage. Look at SFAM, for example. James sang 99% of the vocals, but still JP and MP had great backing vocal moments, like in Fatal Tragedy or Beyond This Life. That's one of the very few things I miss of the MP era, the extra vocals by them, even though Mike went WAY TOO FAR with his vocals on DT (ROOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGHHHHHHHHHHHH) :facepalm:
I wish JP recorded backing vocals on the studio albums again, and that his vocals weren't as buried on the live mixes as they are now.
I don't feel the same way. I am glad it's (pretty much) only James on the albums now, and I actually wish it was only him on Scenes and everything else. If I had to have another voice, I would prefer JP over MP. I think JP's voice just goes better with JL's voice than MP's does, and I like his voice better too. When I listen to Scenes with headphones and I'm listening very intently, I feel that it would be that much better without MP's voice. I think we're the opposite here - there are things that I miss about MP, a lot, but I don't miss his vocals at all - not on the albums and certainly not live. I was very upset when he left, but when I started coming to terms with it, my first "look on the bright side" thought was that maybe the vocals would be left to James in future. When the new drummer candidates were announced, I was hoping it would not be Peter Wildoer and I looked to see if any of the others also sang. As much as I loved MP, and I really did, I could only put up with his vocals at best, and at times really hated them.
-
He doesn't say that all the time as in "Look, I've made the album of my career here" (which he did say for this album), but he's always overhyping his new albums/bands. He did that for AMOB, TWD, MA... and the results aren't always that good, just look at AMOB :facepalm:
With this one, though, he just went nuts with the "This is better than anything I've ever done" thing and, to me, he was just trying to take advantage of the big split TA made on the DT fanbase, as in "If you didn't like their album, don't worry, we've come up with a much better one that you'll definitely like because I was the soul of DT, not them." (of course he didn't say that, but that's the way it looks to me).
Yeah, he really did hype the hell out of Winery Dogs and Adrenaline Mob. To be honest, it probably played a role in me not liking those that much. I guess I was expecting much more.
With TSOAD, I think it's interesting that he says it's the album of his career but he doesn't know anything about the story. I've seen two interviews where he just said that was all Neal's department. He even admitted one or two other guys in the band had read the book it was based off of. Just seems like if this truly was the album of his career, he would know a little bit more about the thing that actually makes this a concept album.
-
Happy anniversary, The Astonishing!
-
Happy anniversary, The Astonishing!
:metal :metal :metal
-
I don't feel the same way. I am glad it's (pretty much) only James on the albums now, and I actually wish it was only him on Scenes and everything else. If I had to have another voice, I would prefer JP over MP. I think JP's voice just goes better with JL's voice than MP's does, and I like his voice better too. When I listen to Scenes with headphones and I'm listening very intently, I feel that it would be that much better without MP's voice. I think we're the opposite here - there are things that I miss about MP, a lot, but I don't miss his vocals at all - not on the albums and certainly not live. I was very upset when he left, but when I started coming to terms with it, my first "look on the bright side" thought was that maybe the vocals would be left to James in future. When the new drummer candidates were announced, I was hoping it would not be Peter Wildoer and I looked to see if any of the others also sang. As much as I loved MP, and I really did, I could only put up with his vocals at best, and at times really hated them.
I disagree with you to some extent. I think what MP brought to SFaM was excellent. I love how, unlike IaW, it was possible for the band to replicate live what the vocals sounded like on the album. But I will agree that some of MP's vocals, particularly his pseudo-cookie-monster vocals on ANtR were completely unnecessary, and that's one thing that I was glad they got rid of. And for that reason alone, I too was hoping Wildoer wouldn't get the job for fear they'd capitalize on that style of vocal even more.
With TSOAD, I think it's interesting that he says it's the album of his career but he doesn't know anything about the story. I've seen two interviews where he just said that was all Neal's department. He even admitted one or two other guys in the band had read the book it was based off of. Just seems like if this truly was the album of his career, he would know a little bit more about the thing that actually makes this a concept album.
I don't find it so hard to believe. The man has never been all about the lyrics, unlike JP. Yeah, he wrote some, and certainly he was heavily involved in directing the story of SFaM. But otherwise, he seems to have a pretty hands off approach to lyrics. I think for him (and I believe he's made comments in interviews stating this), it's all about the music - the lyrics don't mean much to him. That's one of the reasons why he can be doing all sorts of stuff with NM and still love Slayer and all sorts of other bands that are diametrically opposed. And I don't think he's much of a book reader either - he's all about movies. So for that reason, when he says he knows little about the story that makes up this album of his career, it's really not surprising or strange.
-
Happy 1st Anniversary, you incredible thing!
-
Yeah, happy Astonishing birthday! :metal
-
I bought it day one.
Of course, i heard 'The gift of music' & 'A moment of betrayal' as the first singles.
I felt they were pretty good.
Then i listened to the album and right away noticed how soft it was. I think it is
a very impressive effort, but too many cheesy moments. 'The path that divides,
'Three days,' and 'The walking shadow' emerged for me as the three slam dunk
kick ass songs. I should add 'A new beginning,' but those 3 are special to me.
A year later, i don't listen much, but that may only be because i have so much
music that i'm listening to now.
Like an earlier poster, it's extremely hard to rank this. No way it ever cracks my
top 3 (Awake, Metropolis 2 SFAM, Falling into infinity) though.
-
Happy anniversary, The Astonishing!
+1 I don't know how many times I've listened to it over the last year, and it's meant so much to me. Now that I think about it, I don't know that I've ever really thought about an album's anniversary before, in terms of celebrating it on the exact day. I'll listen to it today for sure.
-
I don't feel the same way. I am glad it's (pretty much) only James on the albums now, and I actually wish it was only him on Scenes and everything else. If I had to have another voice, I would prefer JP over MP. I think JP's voice just goes better with JL's voice than MP's does, and I like his voice better too. When I listen to Scenes with headphones and I'm listening very intently, I feel that it would be that much better without MP's voice. I think we're the opposite here - there are things that I miss about MP, a lot, but I don't miss his vocals at all - not on the albums and certainly not live. I was very upset when he left, but when I started coming to terms with it, my first "look on the bright side" thought was that maybe the vocals would be left to James in future. When the new drummer candidates were announced, I was hoping it would not be Peter Wildoer and I looked to see if any of the others also sang. As much as I loved MP, and I really did, I could only put up with his vocals at best, and at times really hated them.
I disagree with you to some extent. I think what MP brought to SFaM was excellent. I love how, unlike IaW, it was possible for the band to replicate live what the vocals sounded like on the album. But I will agree that some of MP's vocals, particularly his pseudo-cookie-monster vocals on ANtR were completely unnecessary, and that's one thing that I was glad they got rid of. And for that reason alone, I too was hoping Wildoer wouldn't get the job for fear they'd capitalize on that style of vocal even more.
We're agreed on the Nightmare vocals for sure. His vocals were the biggest detracting factors in SC and Black Clouds for me. I could live with them on the albums before - especially when listening to the albums while doing something else at the same time. They just bugged me when I was listening very intently, but not to such an extreme where I didn't like the albums as much. I still prefer Scenes over Images and Words, for example. SC and Black Clouds really took it to a different level and one that (for me), detracted from the music. When the super duper deluxe version of Black Clouds came out, even though I have never used any kind of music software in my life, I was looking forward to using the stem tracks to make myself an MP-free version of the album. Sadly for me, the vocals were just one track and you couldn't separate his vocals from JL's. But that's just me.
Live - I didn't think the backing vocals were all that good. On some parts, I really think it would have been better if it was just JP singing, or even just MP. "There can be no turning back..." never worked for me with the two of them singing together, for example. On the Dramatic Turn tour, when James sang it himself - I really thought it just sounded so much better. I'm not trying to put MP down with these comments, though it may seem that way. He is quite possibly my favorite drummer, he has written some great lyrics, and been involved in the writing of great songs and albums. He is an amazing musician, but singing is just not his gift (imo of course).
I also don't care that much about backing vocals being prerecorded. I know some people hate it, but for me, I don't care. It's not important to me to have multiple voices on an album or in a live performance. MP always liked to remind us how many great bands had multiple singers, and so they did, but those bands had multiple *good* singers, and there are probably more great bands who had only one singer anyway. If it's King's X, then yeah, bring it on. If it's Rush, no, no thank you. The only voice I want to hear is Geddy's, and their system of Alex singing with his mic turned way down while Geddy's vocals are piped in is a-OK with me. (Especially after hearing a bootleg where you could really hear Alex's vocals loud and clear). I feel about DT the way I do about Rush, or Riverside, or Iron Maiden, or plenty of other bands; I don't need other voices.
With TSOAD, I think it's interesting that he says it's the album of his career but he doesn't know anything about the story. I've seen two interviews where he just said that was all Neal's department. He even admitted one or two other guys in the band had read the book it was based off of. Just seems like if this truly was the album of his career, he would know a little bit more about the thing that actually makes this a concept album.
I don't find it so hard to believe. The man has never been all about the lyrics, unlike JP. Yeah, he wrote some, and certainly he was heavily involved in directing the story of SFaM. But otherwise, he seems to have a pretty hands off approach to lyrics. I think for him (and I believe he's made comments in interviews stating this), it's all about the music - the lyrics don't mean much to him. That's one of the reasons why he can be doing all sorts of stuff with NM and still love Slayer and all sorts of other bands that are diametrically opposed. And I don't think he's much of a book reader either - he's all about movies. So for that reason, when he says he knows little about the story that makes up this album of his career, it's really not surprising or strange.
Hey this is a really good point. I can totally see that about him. As a fan I'm in between him and those who put very high importance on lyrics; better lyrics make for a better experience for me, but if I like the music enough I can (almost always) get past bad ones.
-
I agree that the vocals Portnoy and Petrucci did on SFAM were fine. The harmonies in Fatal Tragedy are really nice, and the background stuff in Home, for example, is good...in the studio. Live, Portnoy often tried to put too much attitude in them, and it came off horribly more often than not (see: that crap he does during the verses in Home on Live Scenes or that scream in the 8V part of the medley on the SC tour).
I am fine with JLB doing all (or almost all) of the vocals again in the studio, and them having to pipe them in live. Imagine them having recorded Take the Time back in the day with Portnoy and Petrucci doing the "take the time" in the chorus, like they did live in the 00s. That would have been...not good.
-
I also don't care that much about backing vocals being prerecorded. I know some people hate it, but for me, I don't care. It's not important to me to have multiple voices on an album or in a live performance. MP always liked to remind us how many great bands had multiple singers, and so they did, but those bands had multiple *good* singers, and there are probably more great bands who had only one singer anyway. If it's King's X, then yeah, bring it on. If it's Rush, no, no thank you. The only voice I want to hear is Geddy's, and their system of Alex singing with his mic turned way down while Geddy's vocals are piped in is a-OK with me. (Especially after hearing a bootleg where you could really hear Alex's vocals loud and clear). I feel about DT the way I do about Rush, or Riverside, or Iron Maiden, or plenty of other bands; I don't need other voices.
I agree. If you are not at the level of Queen, Extreme, Bon Jovi or Def Leppard, don't sing as a group.
-
I agree that the vocals Portnoy and Petrucci did on SFAM were fine. The harmonies in Fatal Tragedy are really nice, and the background stuff in Home, for example, is good...in the studio. Live, Portnoy often tried to put too much attitude in them, and it came off horribly more often than not (see: that crap he does during the verses in Home on Live Scenes or that scream in the 8V part of the medley on the SC tour).
I had not thought of that in a long time. Man yeah, MP's singing on the DVD is something else.
I am not too big a fan of James doing all the backing vocals. He has a somewhat narrow timbre, and even MP's nasal voice I thought worked better as a backing voice (on the albums) than just James'.
Of the members of current DT, I would say JR could be excellent in that regard. He has a very nice baritone voice and clearly can hold a tune.
-
I've never heard JR sing. What has he sang on?
-
There's at least one solo album tune that he sang IIRC.
EDIT: Interesting article:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/jordan_rudess_why_i_dont_sing_or_write_lyrics_for_dream_theater.html
Asked on why he never sang on a DT record despite providing lead vocals for his solo work - on 1993's "Listen" album in particular - the man explained: "When I joined the group was very set in its ways and I never really pushed to do it; I was always very busy doing other things.
"But that doesn't change the reality that I have a decent voice and I can keep really good pitch. Although my range is very low, so that's one thing that would prevent me from being very proactive about wanting to do it."
Bummer. I think Jordan could be a really cool counterpoint to James.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k_cOjED010
Best I could find quickly.
-
The fact that Jordan has perfect pitch means he can sing in tune all the time, unlike James :lol :biggrin: Also, I think he could do backing vocals perfectly.
About the JP/MP vocals, I didn't say I miss the MP vocals, like Vakaren said, his vocals on SC and BC&SL were terrible (and I'm probably the biggest supporter of SC on DTF). I think the man can sing well, but he definitely needs someone to filter his vocal contributions and tell him, because not everything he thinks sounds good actually sounds good, specially when he sings lead, oh man, that's bad.
What I DO miss about the MP era is them being more open to extra vocals/harmonies from the other members. JP has a very cool voice and can definitely help the songs when used right. I really like his singing in TMOLS, for example. I also think his voice suits DT much better than MP's.
-
The fact that Jordan has perfect pitch means he can sing in tune all the time, unlike James :lol :biggrin:
Sadly it does not.
-
JP has a very cool voice and can definitely help the songs when used right. I really like his singing in TMOLS, for example.
Yeah JPs voice sounds great on record... When it's high pass filtered, drenched in reverb, slightly pitch corrected and mixed into the background :D
-
He can even sing the high parts "almost perfectly" :rollin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5gloy7sxuc
-
The talk of MP's vocals here reminded me (perhaps unfortunately) of those weird "screams" he did during the Razor's Edge part of the Schmedley Wilcox medleY. "We mooove in circles WHAAAA-HAAAAA!!!!" Just......what on earth was he thinking?! The problem is, he seemed to be deadly serious in doing it, no real smile on his face or anything. I mean, we all regret decisions we make, it's just not all of our regrets are immortalized on DVD for everyone to see years down the line.
Oh...Thread duty: The Astonishing is great. :tup
-
About the JP/MP vocals, I didn't say I miss the MP vocals, like Vakaren said, his vocals on SC and BC&SL were terrible (and I'm probably the biggest supporter of SC on DTF). I think the man can sing well, but he definitely needs someone to filter his vocal contributions and tell him, because not everything he thinks sounds good actually sounds good, specially when he sings lead, oh man, that's bad.
What I DO miss about the MP era is them being more open to extra vocals/harmonies from the other members. JP has a very cool voice and can definitely help the songs when used right. I really like his singing in TMOLS, for example. I also think his voice suits DT much better than MP's.
I like JP's vocals on Ministry of List Souls too. They're brief, understated, but have the right feel. But I think that sort of thing should be the exception rather than the rule, and so I like the way they're doing things now. His vocals on Illumination Theory are similarly well done.
For the record, I also do like SC quite a lot.
As for the Astonishing, I just don't think it would have been better or enhanced by other voices; I am so happy that it is the way that it is. Listening to it on it's anniversary reminded me yet again how incredible that album is. :)
-
The talk of MP's vocals here reminded me (perhaps unfortunately) of those weird "screams" he did during the Razor's Edge part of the Schmedley Wilcox medleY. "We mooove in circles WHAAAA-HAAAAA!!!!" Just......what on earth was he thinking?! The problem is, he seemed to be deadly serious in doing it, no real smile on his face or anything. I mean, we all regret decisions we make, it's just not all of our regrets are immortalized on DVD for everyone to see years down the line.
Oh, man that was awful! The worst part, as you say, is that he actually thought that would sound good :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: So glad he never got to do it on the studio version :omg:
So glad they also retired medleys completely :laugh:
I like JP's vocals on Ministry of List Souls too. They're brief, understated, but have the right feel. But I think that sort of thing should be the exception rather than the rule, and so I like the way they're doing things now. His vocals on Illumination Theory are similarly well done.
For the record, I also do like SC quite a lot.
As for the Astonishing, I just don't think it would have been better or enhanced by other voices; I am so happy that it is the way that it is. Listening to it on it's anniversary reminded me yet again how incredible that album is. :)
I think the vocals on IT (the last part, if that's what you're refering to) were all James too. Vocals in the studio have been 100% James for the last 3 albums.
I rank SC higher than 8V, TOT, FII BC&SL and WDADU :biggrin:
TA is, indeed a perfect album the way it is. It's 3rd on my DT rank and I love it :D
-
The talk of MP's vocals here reminded me (perhaps unfortunately) of those weird "screams" he did during the Razor's Edge part of the Schmedley Wilcox medleY. "We mooove in circles WHAAAA-HAAAAA!!!!" Just......what on earth was he thinking?! The problem is, he seemed to be deadly serious in doing it, no real smile on his face or anything. I mean, we all regret decisions we make, it's just not all of our regrets are immortalized on DVD for everyone to see years down the line.
The silver lining there is that is on their own DVD which most seem to agree is by far their worst, so it's not like it tainted what was otherwise a stellar concert video.
-
The talk of MP's vocals here reminded me (perhaps unfortunately) of those weird "screams" he did during the Razor's Edge part of the Schmedley Wilcox medleY. "We mooove in circles WHAAAA-HAAAAA!!!!" Just......what on earth was he thinking?! The problem is, he seemed to be deadly serious in doing it, no real smile on his face or anything. I mean, we all regret decisions we make, it's just not all of our regrets are immortalized on DVD for everyone to see years down the line.
Oh...Thread duty: The Astonishing is great. :tup
Lol, one of the most cringeworthy moments in DT history. It almost sounded like he really was walking barefoot on a Razors Edge.. Not dissing on Portnoy, he was just obviously excited to play that part. :lol
-
The talk of MP's vocals here reminded me (perhaps unfortunately) of those weird "screams" he did during the Razor's Edge part of the Schmedley Wilcox medleY. "We mooove in circles WHAAAA-HAAAAA!!!!" Just......what on earth was he thinking?! The problem is, he seemed to be deadly serious in doing it, no real smile on his face or anything. I mean, we all regret decisions we make, it's just not all of our regrets are immortalized on DVD for everyone to see years down the line.
Oh...Thread duty: The Astonishing is great. :tup
Lol, one of the most cringeworthy moments in DT history. It almost sounded like he really was walking barefoot on a Razors Edge.. Not dissing on Portnoy, he was just obviously excited to play that part. :lol
I've never actually watched the video all the way through, but I've listened to the audio (I'm much more an audio guy than video), so I know what you guys are talking about. However, I can't help but think it's just MP screwing around more than anything else.
The other thing it's good to remember is that originally, MP/the band had no intentions of releasing a live product from the Chaos in Motion tour, which is why no shows were specifically filmed as they were for Score, etc. So MP had to pick and choose from the shows that they had pro-shot video from. Can't remember if he did this during all the shows that had the medley or not, but that might help explain why he left it on there.
-
The other thing it's good to remember is that originally, MP/the band had no intentions of releasing a live product from the Chaos in Motion tour, which is why no shows were specifically filmed as they were for Score, etc. So MP had to pick and choose from the shows that they had pro-shot video from. Can't remember if he did this during all the shows that had the medley or not, but that might help explain why he left it on there.
I don't remember him doing that for any of the shows I saw on that tour, but I think that version is from the Montreal (?) Progressive Nation set which I believe was professionally filmed. I remember the announcement that they were going to film that night. Hence, the better video/sound for that part of the DVD (Forsaken, Ministry, Schmedley). :) So, he had to know cameras were rolling. :P :biggrin: Sorry for derailing further...
-
Just revisiting TA again today. Yep, still good! :metal
-
I am listening to it quite often still. It's a really cool album with great melodies. I love musicals like JCS and when Rudess hits the piano, so this album is at many times pure bliss.
The issue I have is the overall story and some songs that destroys the flow. There are too much "you and me" love moments in there and too little badass prog stuff. Feels like every time the album is building in tension it quickly drops down to some love moment again. Something with the flow is not working for me. Like when the album starts building from Ravenskill and hits A New Beginning I really just want the album to stay dramatic, big and complex from that moment. And at times it does. But it quickly goes down and the only really proggy moment on cd2 is A Path that Divides, which is freakin awesome! Damn it, I just want a Fatal Tragedy, a In The Name of God, a Glass Prison in there. Something dark, brooding, complex and longer that only DT could have done for an album like this. The story is hitting climax, go crazy!
I mean the melodies are all awesome and there isn't a single weak song (even if I don't fully like some of them). That is also the issue I guess. That it's hard to cut good songs, but the album would be better without some.
Listening to Scenes From a Memory right now and ofc it's a different musical concept, but still the flow is what makes Scenes so god damn great. You have everything in there and you get it just at the right time. I never get tired of a single moment because the album knows just when to switch style and still build tension to that epic dramatic climax only DT can do.
However The Astonishing is a great album and I love that they made it. It feels fresh, have some of the best moments in their career and is filled with good stuff. Also, James is on fire!
-
Aren't Moment of Betrayal, The Walking Shadow and My Last Farewell proggy?
It's already my favorite DT albim, but if I would be asked to trim the unnecessary songs, I will just remove Brother Can You Hear Me, Begin Again and Whispers on the Wind. Maybe Road to Revolution and 2285 Entracte if I want to make it one straight playthrough.
-
The other thing it's good to remember is that originally, MP/the band had no intentions of releasing a live product from the Chaos in Motion tour, which is why no shows were specifically filmed as they were for Score, etc. So MP had to pick and choose from the shows that they had pro-shot video from. Can't remember if he did this during all the shows that had the medley or not, but that might help explain why he left it on there.
I don't remember him doing that for any of the shows I saw on that tour, but I think that version is from the Montreal (?) Progressive Nation set which I believe was professionally filmed. I remember the announcement that they were going to film that night. Hence, the better video/sound for that part of the DVD (Forsaken, Ministry, Schmedley). :) So, he had to know cameras were rolling. :P :biggrin: Sorry for derailing further...
That gig should've been the whole DVD. Way better quality and the venue is really nice.
-
The other thing it's good to remember is that originally, MP/the band had no intentions of releasing a live product from the Chaos in Motion tour, which is why no shows were specifically filmed as they were for Score, etc. So MP had to pick and choose from the shows that they had pro-shot video from. Can't remember if he did this during all the shows that had the medley or not, but that might help explain why he left it on there.
I don't remember him doing that for any of the shows I saw on that tour, but I think that version is from the Montreal (?) Progressive Nation set which I believe was professionally filmed. I remember the announcement that they were going to film that night. Hence, the better video/sound for that part of the DVD (Forsaken, Ministry, Schmedley). :) So, he had to know cameras were rolling. :P :biggrin: Sorry for derailing further...
That gig should've been the whole DVD. Way better quality and the venue is really nice.
I agree! Somehow MP managed to ignore most of the best quality footage and gave us CIM instead :huh:
-
^ I think that's because the whole idea of that DVD was to be a tour-journal type concert film, not only spanning multiple shows across the world tour, but also having various degrees of quality from show to show. If I remember right, that was all intention. Remember this was right after the two previous tour cycles produced LaB and Score, two very high-quality tradition concert DVD releases. CiM was supposed to be something fun and different.
-
^ I think that's because the whole idea of that DVD was to be a tour-journal type concert film, not only spanning multiple shows across the world tour, but also having various degrees of quality from show to show. If I remember right, that was all intention. Remember this was right after the two previous tour cycles produced LaB and Score, two very high-quality tradition concert DVD releases. CiM was supposed to be something fun and different.
Well, for what I remember, I really liked it. The quality not that much, but the songs that made it are really cool. I might have to watch that DVD again :smiley:
-
^ I think that's because the whole idea of that DVD was to be a tour-journal type concert film, not only spanning multiple shows across the world tour, but also having various degrees of quality from show to show. If I remember right, that was all intention. Remember this was right after the two previous tour cycles produced LaB and Score, two very high-quality tradition concert DVD releases. CiM was supposed to be something fun and different.
Well, for what I remember, I really liked it. The quality not that much, but the songs that made it are really cool. I might have to watch that DVD again :smiley:
It's one of my least favorite DT live releases easily. The bonus stuff was great though.
-
^ I think that's because the whole idea of that DVD was to be a tour-journal type concert film, not only spanning multiple shows across the world tour, but also having various degrees of quality from show to show. If I remember right, that was all intention. Remember this was right after the two previous tour cycles produced LaB and Score, two very high-quality tradition concert DVD releases. CiM was supposed to be something fun and different.
Well, for what I remember, I really liked it. The quality not that much, but the songs that made it are really cool. I might have to watch that DVD again :smiley:
It's one of my least favorite DT live releases easily. The bonus stuff was great though.
Speaking of bonus stuff, am I the only one who still hopes there's a reissue of Metropolis 2000 with better quality and the complete setlist? :'(
-
I don't know. I listened to it twice and it was more than enough for me. I thought it was the worst album DT ever did. It didn't hold my interest at all, so I don't feel like listening to it again.
-
I wasn't a fan of it when it came out but I only listened to it twice. I don't think Dream Theater needs to be "metal" all the time but I thought there were too many slow filler moments. I've never really cared about lyrics so it doesn't matter to me if the lyrics are terrible or great on this album. I only check out the lyrics if I really love the music and even then I don't always pay attention to the lyrics.
I'm going to be listening to it this week because I always thought it needs to be absorbed and I never gave it that chance. I'm actually listening to it right now but I won't finish it because I planned on watching Boogie Nights. LaBrie does sound really good though.
Edit: All right so I listened to again which would make it my third time listening to it. I dislike it less than I did on my first two listens back when it came out, but I still think there are way too many slow songs. They're not bad songs but they're just meh. The songs that rock are pretty good.
At this point, it may be an album I'll listen to once a year on a plane ride or something. This is one of those albums where as a fan I have to ask myself, "Herrick, would you even bother listening to this again if it wasn't Dream Theater?".
-
LaBrie does sound really good though.
Indeed, one of the highlights of the album, for sure.
-
I wasn't a fan of it when it came out but I only listened to it twice. I don't think Dream Theater needs to be "metal" all the time but I thought there were too many slow filler moments. I've never really cared about lyrics so it doesn't matter to me if the lyrics are terrible or great on this album. I only check out the lyrics if I really love the music and even then I don't always pay attention to the lyrics.
I'm going to be listening to it this week because I always thought it needs to be absorbed and I never gave it that chance. I'm actually listening to it right now but I won't finish it because I planned on watching Boogie Nights. LaBrie does sound really good though.
Edit: All right so I listened to again which would make it my third time listening to it. I dislike it less than I did on my first two listens back when it came out, but I still think there are way too many slow songs. They're not bad songs but they're just meh. The songs that rock are pretty good.
At this point, it may be an album I'll listen to once a year on a plane ride or something. This is one of those albums where as a fan I have to ask myself, "Herrick, would you even bother listening to this again if it wasn't Dream Theater?".
I like your last sentence.
-
I like your last sentence.
Why thank you, Eddie ;D
And I like your name and avatar :tup
-
Speaking of bonus stuff, am I the only one who still hopes there's a reissue of Metropolis 2000 with better quality and the complete setlist? :'(
I would have liked this also but I think with Mangini in the band, this re-release has a lesser chance of happening. Same for a Score bluray.
-
Simple answers to the OP's two questions:-
Then: Very weak and disappointing.
Now: STILL very weak and disappointing!!
-
Listened to disc 1 in full on my road trip a couple weeks ago. First time in a long time giving the whole disc a spin at once. Loved it.
-
Speaking of bonus stuff, am I the only one who still hopes there's a reissue of Metropolis 2000 with better quality and the complete setlist? :'(
I would have liked this also but I think with Mangini in the band, this re-release has a lesser chance of happening. Same for a Score bluray.
But they released the LAB bluray a couple years after he joined.
-
I guess I'm one of the few where TA didn't click with at all. I gave it a few spins when it was released and it was incredibly dense and not really interesting. I didn't care for the story or really the music.
I took a listen to again a few weeks ago and I felt the same. Off the top of my head I would rank TA as the worst DT album.
Here is hoping DT tries something different next go around.
-
"would you even bother listening to this again if it wasn't Dream Theater?".
Take a plain day with your wife or girlfriend, a day where nothing remarkable happens and she makes an annoying remark or two for trivial stuff. "Would you even date this girl now if she wasn't already your wife?"
Music in a sense is bound to the irrational course of relationships and love: you fall in love (a song hooks you up), you get drawn in (the perfect album makes you a fan) and then you stay on, and either you split (the band changes style and you no longer care) or stay on for live (you appreciate every album).
That trust and connection you build with your significant other is the kind of affection that you develop for a band album after album, they earn the right to mutiple listenings and glossing over the occasional bad song just like nobody divorces after a single trivial fight.
So yeah, maybe you wouldn't listen to this album if it wasn't from Dream Theater - but they made you a fan so they earned those multiple listenings you give to them and not a random band you accidentally follow on YouTube.
-
I guess I'm one of the few where TA didn't click with at all. I gave it a few spins when it was released and it was incredibly dense and not really interesting. I didn't care for the story or really the music.
I took a listen to again a few weeks ago and I felt the same. Off the top of my head I would rank TA as the worst DT album.
Here is hoping DT tries something different next go around.
Same here. After buying it last year I struggled to even finish the whole album and didn't give it another try until a few weeks ago.
After reading this forum I decided to give it a second chance. I'm still pretty sure it stays among my least favorite DT albums but I'm starting to appreciate it much more.
Can't get into the story/lyrics but starting to like some of the individual songs;A Life Left Behind, A New Beginning, Chosen, Our New World.
-
Was really looking forward to it, but only listened to it a couple of times. I will re listen to it while on vacation.
-
It seemed to really click with me after I saw the live performance. I also spent a little time learning the lyrics so I could follow the story. At first I didn't care for it as much, I would hear the beginning of many of the songs and think, "too soft". But after the show, I realized there is a lot of great music and James part is fantastic. I actually am choosing to listen to this, but always listen to it in order. I ended up seeing the show 3 times and enjoyed immensely every time.
-
"would you even bother listening to this again if it wasn't Dream Theater?".
Take a plain day with your wife or girlfriend, a day where nothing remarkable happens and she makes an annoying remark or two for trivial stuff. "Would you even date this girl now if she wasn't already your wife?"
Music in a sense is bound to the irrational course of relationships and love: you fall in love (a song hooks you up), you get drawn in (the perfect album makes you a fan) and then you stay on, and either you split (the band changes style and you no longer care) or stay on for live (you appreciate every album).
That trust and connection you build with your significant other is the kind of affection that you develop for a band album after album, they earn the right to mutiple listenings and glossing over the occasional bad song just like nobody divorces after a single trivial fight.
So yeah, maybe you wouldn't listen to this album if it wasn't from Dream Theater - but they made you a fan so they earned those multiple listenings you give to them and not a random band you accidentally follow on YouTube.
I'm not quite sure how to respond to this. I'm still a Dream Theater fan and will definitely be checking out all of their future albums. It's possible I will really enjoy The Astonishing some day. I'm not going to delete it. For now much like Falling Into Infinity, The Astonishing is an album I'll listen to occasionally like once a year or even every few years.
-
Here is hoping DT tries something different next go around.
Considering that The Astonishing WAS DT trying something different, and the lukewarm reception to the art they put their hard work, heart and soul into, they may well be put off 'trying something different' forever now and just revert to type for future albums.
-
Here is hoping DT tries something different next go around.
Considering that The Astonishing WAS DT trying something different, and the lukewarm reception to the art they put their hard work, heart and soul into, they may well be put off 'trying something different' forever now and just revert to type for future albums.
Unfortuntely I think this might be true...
Loved the Astonishing but would love if they did something they have never done before on the next album.
How about an EP with just 5 or 6 short songs, around the 3 or 4 minute mark.
-
I guess I'm one of the few where TA didn't click with at all. I gave it a few spins when it was released and it was incredibly dense and not really interesting. I didn't care for the story or really the music.
I took a listen to again a few weeks ago and I felt the same. Off the top of my head I would rank TA as the worst DT album.
Here is hoping DT tries something different next go around.
Different to TA? I'd bet my pants on that.
Different to the usual DT drill? I kinda doubt it.
-
Here is hoping DT tries something different next go around.
Considering that The Astonishing WAS DT trying something different, and the lukewarm reception to the art they put their hard work, heart and soul into, they may well be put off 'trying something different' forever now and just revert to type for future albums.
Yeah, I think somewhat of a "revert to type" is likely. But that's fine, since "type" for DT is pretty much an A+ proposition most of the time.
-
Give me "run-of-the-mill" DT any day...for me, if the template of future albums is similar to DT12, I´ll be happy!
-
DT haven't failed me yet, until then I don't have any real opinion on the next direction, just for them to continue being them.
-
I've said for as far back as I can remember that I'd love to see Dream Theater do an all acoustic studio release, with Jordan on a piano. It wouldn't have to be a full-on new record, but rather something to bide the time between releases.
Sevendust did this same thing with its Time Travelers & Bonfires release. They did six new songs, acoustic, and then re-worked six of its older tunes on acoustic. Then they went out and toured on it, learning a few more tunes along the way. It really came across great. And then they went back into the studio, and put out a crushing album (Kill the Flaw).
For DT, an EP like this, with a few new acoustic originals, and a few re-worked classics, would be a cool new direction for them, even if just an experiment to recharge the batteries for a bit in-between regular studio record releases...
-
I like the idea, but would slightly modify it in the sense that I would love to see a "smaller" DT. I feel they've been trying to go bigger with every release, and TA obviously was as big as they may ever attempt to go. I think it would work well if DT tried to do what they usually do, but with maybe a classic 7-piece drum kit, a piano, and a simple amp (not a Triple Rectifier plus chorus etc etc).
-
I'm all for the idea! the FII acoustic shows were something unique in their entire history, nothing like that happened before or since. The idea of a bridge album, some original tunes and some other ones reworked is quite good, it's something different from the same old album tour album tour thing.
-
I'd love an acoustic record from DT but I don't think it'll ever happen, maybe some more acoustic tracks. I do agree with you rumbo that a less bigger DT would be cool.
-
I'm all for the idea! the FII acoustic shows were something unique in their entire history, nothing like that happened before or since.
If you're strict about the definition of DT, then yes you are correct. But, there was also "An Evening With JP and JR", and it was fricking fantastic. If I were to rank it as an album, it'd be middle of the pack I think.
-
How about an EP with just 5 or 6 short songs, around the 3 or 4 minute mark.
I've said for as far back as I can remember that I'd love to see Dream Theater do an all acoustic studio release, with Jordan on a piano. It wouldn't have to be a full-on new record, but rather something to bide the time between releases.
I like these ideas. Maybe an EP for each idea then back to a full length album.
Yeah, I think somewhat of a "revert to type" is likely. But that's fine, since "type" for DT is pretty much an A+ proposition most of the time.
Agreed.
Give me "run-of-the-mill" DT any day...for me, if the template of future albums is similar to DT12, I´ll be happy!
Agreed even though I liked the previous album more.
-
• How did you feel about it a year go ?
Meh.
• How do you fell about it now ?
Meh.
-
As a project it is definetely one of the most daring and ambitious concepts I've seen a band attempt since Queensryche's O:M or The Who's Tommy/Quadrophenia. I can't even begin to imagine the energy and effort it must have taken to shape this whole thing. Speaking of which anyone know how the status of the Limited Edition Media Box thing is?
I think however, it is time to move on to different things now for the band. I for one am very curious what they have in store next.
-
As a project it is definetely one of the most daring and ambitious concepts I've seen a band attempt since Queensryche's O:M or The Who's Tommy/Quadrophenia. I can't even begin to imagine the energy and effort it must have taken to shape this whole thing. Speaking of which anyone know how the status of the Limited Edition Media Box thing is?
I think however, it is time to move on to different things now for the band. I for one am very curious what they have in store next.
Pretty sure that what they have in store next will tske no risks and will risk being labled as DT by the numbers
Hope I am wrong though and that they do something they have never done before
-
The fan pleasing set they perform at this moment is enough pleasing for the next years IMHO. After that I would like to see DT take a little breath and write the thing they want to. Not thinking in sequals or what fans would like...but if they put a ear, I suggest more fusion: metal meets tango, walz, boogie woogie
-
I agree with both.
Perhaps they could release a 2 disc album with disc 2 being acoustic versions of the songs on disc 1, and play a longer than usual acoustic part in the live shows? For me the acoustic parts are always highlights and I'd also love to see a 100% acoustic show, but I doubt they'd risk anything like that, especially after the result of taking risks with TA.
I'd love an acoustic record from DT but I don't think it'll ever happen, maybe some more acoustic tracks. I do agree with you rumbo that a less bigger DT would be cool.
-
I really don't view this as a Dream Theater album. It's more a really thought out concept performed by Dream Theater. Which makes the Live shows have more sense.
But I/We don't know whose idea it was to not have pics and vids, but that was the one decision that affected the band. Especially in these times when people are addicted to YouTube and need to have video before actually being surprised at a live show. I don't blame them for trying to bring it back like the old days before phones. I am glad I got to experience a few shows like that.
What I just realized, we only have like what not many vids of The Astonishing live and audio as well, which then that's all people who never went to these shows will judge it by. Which in turn, the people whom went will say it was a great show, because they went to it. And that's the way Steven Wilson feels about his shows. I don't mind because we are not spoiled with so many great shows like them big cities.
-
TA has a place on the shelf for me. I listened to it heavily when my dog was dying and it brings back very sad emotions for me so I am very selective as to when I listen now. It has nothing to do with the album in itself moreso the timing and what was happening in my life when I began listening to it.
-
YtseJam, so sorry about your dog. I can see why some songs on TA would be hard to listen to. Just the melody lines in the music can make you sentimental and spark memories. I can relate, I miss my doggies too, immensely!
TA will always be a very special album to me, beyond amazing!
-
Architeuthis, thanks. I was destroyed and brought to tears many times so when I hear those melodies I'm lucky no one else is around because the eyes start to water. The worst part about having a dog is the ending. :'(
-
The one thing I can say about the whole 'no pics/filming' policy is that it made for a quite unique experience of watching a band play in a theater. If they were to do it once, this was definetely the show to do that.
-
The one thing I can say about the whole 'no pics/filming' policy is that it made for a quite unique experience of watching a band play in a theater. If they were to do it once, this was definetely the show to do that.
Now that there is not live release on the way, I completely disagree with this. I didn't mind it at the time, but now there's like one source of footage for the extended guitar solo in A New Beginning, and it's trash.
-
Or it made it a truly unique experience for those who paid their own money to see the show, and actually use their own eyes to see a band live, in the flesh, and their own memory banks to remember it.
-
Or it made it a truly unique experience for those who paid their own money to see the show, and actually use their own eyes to see a band live, in the flesh, and their own memory banks to remember it.
By that logic there would never be any live DVDs ever.
Every sperm show is sacred.
-
Or it made it a truly unique experience for those who paid their own money to see the show, and actually use their own eyes to see a band live, in the flesh, and their own memory banks to remember it.
I saw it with my own eyes three times, and bought six tickets in total. I traveled across state lines twice in order to do so, so you can stop preaching. Here's the thing. Twenty years from now, I will have no memory of that guitar solo. If I'm lucky, there will be a single recording, barely audible that does nothing for JM's bitching bass line, still floating around somewhere on the internet.
-
Or it made it a truly unique experience for those who paid their own money to see the show, and actually use their own eyes to see a band live, in the flesh, and their own memory banks to remember it.
I saw it with my own eyes three times, and bought six tickets in total. I traveled across state lines twice in order to do so, so you can stop preaching. Here's the thing. Twenty years from now, I will have no memory of that guitar solo. If I'm lucky, there will be a single recording, barely audible that does nothing for JM's bitching bass line, still floating around somewhere on the internet.
Eh. It's only like what a couple more seconds of solo. Not big of a deal. I've heard plenty of fadeout solos that those bands never play.
What's worse than that is when bands don't play the actual ending of the one main intro melody on the single instrument, ACOS. Or worse, skip the last vocal verse all together, Fates Warning - Still Remains.
-
Or it made it a truly unique experience for those who paid their own money to see the show, and actually use their own eyes to see a band live, in the flesh, and their own memory banks to remember it.
I saw it with my own eyes three times, and bought six tickets in total. I traveled across state lines twice in order to do so, so you can stop preaching. Here's the thing. Twenty years from now, I will have no memory of that guitar solo. If I'm lucky, there will be a single recording, barely audible that does nothing for JM's bitching bass line, still floating around somewhere on the internet.
Eh. It's only like what a couple more seconds of solo. Not big of a deal. I've heard plenty of fadeout solos that those bands never play.
I wholeheartedly disagree. That was face melting, scary good territory. Even more so than Hollow Years on on LAB IMO.
-
Or it made it a truly unique experience for those who paid their own money to see the show, and actually use their own eyes to see a band live, in the flesh, and their own memory banks to remember it.
I saw it with my own eyes three times, and bought six tickets in total. I traveled across state lines twice in order to do so, so you can stop preaching. Here's the thing. Twenty years from now, I will have no memory of that guitar solo. If I'm lucky, there will be a single recording, barely audible that does nothing for JM's bitching bass line, still floating around somewhere on the internet.
The weird thing with me is that I have a horrible memory for concerts. I went to Score and couldn't wait to see the show yet I barely remember anything from the show anymore.
-
Or it made it a truly unique experience for those who paid their own money to see the show, and actually use their own eyes to see a band live, in the flesh, and their own memory banks to remember it.
I saw it with my own eyes three times, and bought six tickets in total. I traveled across state lines twice in order to do so, so you can stop preaching. Here's the thing. Twenty years from now, I will have no memory of that guitar solo. If I'm lucky, there will be a single recording, barely audible that does nothing for JM's bitching bass line, still floating around somewhere on the internet.
The weird thing with me is that I have a horrible memory for concerts. I went to Score and couldn't wait to see the show yet I barely remember anything from the show anymore.
This. I'm thrilled I have a copy of it. The only thing I actually remember about that show were;
1) The curtain being stuck on the right side of the stage during intermission, revealing the orchestra setting up and ruing the surprise.
2) A behemoth of a security guard giving me a death stare when I went to try and touch Jordan when they were waving goodnight to the crowd.
-
I actually had every intention of buying The Astonishing on Vinyl but it's like 4 discs and £70.
Far too much. I actually just bought a triple Vinyl album for £25 just to give you an idea how much more The Astonishing is.
-
I hated it the from the first time I listened to it. I tried to listen to it 2 more times over the year. I cannot stand that album. It is horrible. I would rank it last. I am happy for those of you who really love it though. That means you haven't had a DT void in your life over the last year like I have.
-
I hated it the from the first time I listened to it. I tried to listen to it 2 more times over the year. I cannot stand that album. It is horrible. I would rank it last. I am happy for those of you who really love it though. That means you haven't had a DT void in your life over the last year like I have.
Is there any songs on it you like? There are some songs on there that sound like DT staples, Moment Of Betrayal being one of them.
-
I hated it the from the first time I listened to it. I tried to listen to it 2 more times over the year. I cannot stand that album. It is horrible. I would rank it last. I am happy for those of you who really love it though. That means you haven't had a DT void in your life over the last year like I have.
Is there any songs on it you like? There are some songs on there that sound like DT staples, Moment Of Betrayal being one of them.
The whole song is amazing to me, but THAT instrumental section and THAT drum solo at the end... perfection.
-
Moments of Betrayal has a bit of the same problem Repentance has, where the section they"put on repeat" at the end is just not strong enough to carry the song. MM tries to break the monotony somewhat, but his meter changes are kinda unmusical, IMO. There's probably some cool pattern he does, but to me it sounds random.
-
I hated it the from the first time I listened to it. I tried to listen to it 2 more times over the year. I cannot stand that album. It is horrible. I would rank it last. I am happy for those of you who really love it though. That means you haven't had a DT void in your life over the last year like I have.
Is there any songs on it you like? There are some songs on there that sound like DT staples, Moment Of Betrayal being one of them.
The whole song is amazing to me, but THAT instrumental section and THAT drum solo at the end... perfection.
Drum solo?
-
Or it made it a truly unique experience for those who paid their own money to see the show, and actually use their own eyes to see a band live, in the flesh, and their own memory banks to remember it.
I saw it with my own eyes three times, and bought six tickets in total. I traveled across state lines twice in order to do so, so you can stop preaching. Here's the thing. Twenty years from now, I will have no memory of that guitar solo. If I'm lucky, there will be a single recording, barely audible that does nothing for JM's bitching bass line, still floating around somewhere on the internet.
The weird thing with me is that I have a horrible memory for concerts. I went to Score and couldn't wait to see the show yet I barely remember anything from the show anymore.
This. I'm thrilled I have a copy of it. The only thing I actually remember about that show were;
1) The curtain being stuck on the right side of the stage during intermission, revealing the orchestra setting up and ruing the surprise.
2) A behemoth of a security guard giving me a death stare when I went to try and touch Jordan when they were waving goodnight to the crowd.
3.) JP's guitar cutting out during UAGM
-
I remember some scantily clad jail bait in the row before me.
-
Moments of Betrayal has a bit of the same problem Repentance has, where the section they"put on repeat" at the end is just not strong enough to carry the song. MM tries to break the monotony somewhat, but his meter changes are kinda unmusical, IMO. There's probably some cool pattern he does, but to me it sounds random.
One of my favorite parts of the whole song is the double kick that Mangini does at the end of it
-
I remember some scantily clad jail bait in the row before me.
Male or female?
-
I kind of see the point about not having ANY recording of the concerts. I can't imagine why they couldn't release a good audio recording of them.
-
I kind of see the point about not having ANY recording of the concerts. I can't imagine why they couldn't release a good audio recording of them.
On a BlueRay accompanied with the tour visuals... I would buy that
-
It's been a year already? Wow.
I must confess I still haven't properly "listened" to it. I bought it on release, played it a few times, was completely underwhelmed and put it in the shelf. Since then I have played the occasional track on Spotify, but I just can't get into it. The story does nothing for me and it's way too mellow for my taste. I use to like DT's ballad-y stuff, but this album was too much.
-
I still don't get this. Yes there are like 9 ballads, but also about 20 rocking or heavy songs, twice as many as a normal DT record.
-
Well, let's play a game: take Along for the Ride out of DT12, and take a slowish song from The Astonishing, to eventually change the lyrics for, to place it on DT12 instead replacing Along for the Ride as the "ballad" of the album. How many songs off The Astonishing can be used for this? I can count no more than 5 or 6.
-
There´s ZERO grit on the so called heavy songs of The Astonishing.
-
At first I was hopeful....sounded good in some places but droned on in quite a few others.
After about 15 listens I had come to the conclusion it was the worst DT album in their catalog. Zero five star songs; a few 4 star-songs, 10 or so 3-star songs and the rest not worth listening to. I left the 3-4 star songs in rotation...but found myself skipping them everytime they came up.
My overall rating for the album is 51.....without question the worst DT album in their history.
-
There´s ZERO grit on the so called heavy songs of The Astonishing.
Totally
-
I still don't get this. Yes there are like 9 ballads, but also about 20 rocking or heavy songs, twice as many as a normal DT record.
Really? I must have a hearing problem :lol
-
I still don't get this. Yes there are like 9 ballads, but also about 20 rocking or heavy songs, twice as many as a normal DT record.
Really? I must have a hearing problem :lol
Quite obviously. Are you thinking about getting that checked?
-
There´s ZERO grit on the so called heavy songs of The Astonishing.
Bull. MoB and TWS have plenty of grit, to name just 2.
-
There´s ZERO grit on the so called heavy songs of The Astonishing.
What DT songs (outside of TA) do you think have "grit"?
-
There´s ZERO grit on the so called heavy songs of The Astonishing.
I'm not even really sure what this means.
-
There´s ZERO grit on the so called heavy songs of The Astonishing.
I'm not even really sure what this means.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-z9A2sRfb4b0/UJQKArQAh_I/AAAAAAAAIeU/KjE08IkPDL0/s640/9+finished+grits.jpg)
-
And I'm even less sure what that post means.
-
(https://rozsavagecoaching.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/grit-road.jpg)
This is so stunningly awful, I couldn't not share it :lol
-
And I'm even less sure what that post means.
Grit...potato grit!!
-
James sings with way too much grit nowadays in my opinion (did Wait For Sleep REALLY need it??), don't encourage it!
-
There´s ZERO grit on the so called heavy songs of The Astonishing.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/37JhcQ6NK4M/maxresdefault.jpg)
-
I still don't get this. Yes there are like 9 ballads, but also about 20 rocking or heavy songs, twice as many as a normal DT record.
There are a lot of slow moments. They're not all necessarily ballads but they're not rocking either.
-
There´s ZERO grit on the so called heavy songs of The Astonishing.
I'm not even really sure what this means.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-z9A2sRfb4b0/UJQKArQAh_I/AAAAAAAAIeU/KjE08IkPDL0/s640/9+finished+grits.jpg)
Songs
Of
Unsatisfactory
Performances
?
-
Giving TA its first front-to-back listen since the first few months of its release. We'll see how it goes...
-
I prefer the album to DT12 and that´s the best thing I could say of it.
Well, there´s a couple of moments that I really really like (When your Time Has Come, The Gift of Music), but overall it doesn´t work for me.
And I´m a big Disney fan. ;D
-
So I just re-listened to TA in its entirety, as mentioned above. My observations:
1. I think I would have really enjoyed the overall production they did. I wouldn't have traveled on a work night to go see it (which means I would have missed it anyway), but I think it probably came across better in the live setting.
2. The standalone tracks I liked from my first two listens to it remain. I can't name them, except for a few -- Moment of Betrayal, Our New World, Gift of Music -- but there are more than those three, for sure.
3. the story line (as much as I can focus on it while working and listening to it in the background, which isn't much) isn't very deep, but I'm wondering if the novel will actually help me appreciate it a bit more...if TA was actually the soundtrack to a larger story, rather than the story itself, if that makes sense.
4. James' performance is woefully underrated on the record.
Overall, I like it a lot more than I did when I first checked it out, for sure. The problem I have, is that it has to be such an engaged listen. I couple of times I did look over to see just where I was in terms of getting through it, which tells me some of it could have been cut. But hey, I'm just the listener, not the artist.
In comparison to legendary works like The Wall, Tommy, Mindcrime, etc., TA falls a bit short of those. I actually think SFAM is a better overall conceptual record. But TA also stands apart a bit, because it's not just a concept album. It's a broadway production in audio form. A unique piece of DT history that has rankled the fan base some, but I think over time will become much more appreciated.
-
4. James' performance is woefully underrated on the record.
Yeah LaBrie is one of the highlights for sure. It's interesting how he recorded the vocals without the band around. I wonder how much direction he was given by Petrucci?
-
James' performance on TA is a mixed bag for me. Not by his own fault, but simply by the fact that he was asked to do stuff like singing feminine, or doing evil laughter. He does the best one could imagine in those circumstances, but I can't rank his singing all too high because of it.
-
4. James' performance is woefully underrated on the record.
Yeah LaBrie is one of the highlights for sure. It's interesting how he recorded the vocals without the band around. I wonder how much direction he was given by Petrucci?
Didn't he do that for the self-titled record, and possibly ADToE as well? Either way, I like that. It gives Labrie some "ownership" (not literally) of the songs, and artistic input. I'm sure John always has input, but if James has asserted more control over the ways the vocals are done, I am all for that.
-
LaBrie recorded vocals in Canada with Richard Chycki producing I think ??
-
I think JLB sounds great on TA. I think the parts of Nefarius were pretty rough for him, but on album he sounds pretty good although different form. Live I think he struggled a bit here, but still think overall, he was great on the album and live.
2. The standalone tracks I liked from my first two listens to it remain. I can't name them, except for a few -- Moment of Betrayal, Our New World, Gift of Music -- but there are more than those three, for sure.
I do wonder if this is an effect of those being the three singles for the album
-
JLB is probably the best thing in that album.
-
James' performance on TA is a mixed bag for me. Not by his own fault, but simply by the fact that he was asked to do stuff like singing feminine, or doing evil laughter. He does the best one could imagine in those circumstances, but I can't rank his singing all too high because of it.
I think James did a fantastic job overrall, he's one of the members who shines the most on TA. Having said that, I still wish they got a female singer, just one (and not Lzzy Hale), and had her record all the female parts, with James singing all the male parts. They could've toured with her and that would've made the experience much more unique. Anneke Van Giersbergen would've been perfect for that.
-
He wasn't asked to perform all roles. He insisted. JP originally considered hiring other vocalists for the female parts.
As for LaBrie recording stuff alone - most of the vocals are pre-recorded guides by JP anyhow. And the internet is wonderful since you can just send files back and forth and give notes wherever needed. So JP would just tell JLB to adjust something and they'd rerecord.
-
I think James vocals on the last three records have been great, so I'm all for him continuing to record separate from the band if those are the results.
-
He wasn't asked to perform all roles. He insisted. JP originally considered hiring other vocalists for the female parts.
Interesting tidbit. More power to him. Glad he did all the parts.
-
I think James did a fantastic job overrall, he's one of the members who shines the most on TA. Having said that, I still wish they got a female singer, just one (and not Lzzy Hale), and had her record all the female parts, with James singing all the male parts. They could've toured with her and that would've made the experience much more unique. Anneke Van Giersbergen would've been perfect for that.
It was a massive lost opportunity. It would have added separation in dialogues (unless you read the lyrics, who can actually keep track who is saying what when?), and it could have added duet style stuff, I.e. both singing at the same time.
-
I think James vocals on the last three records have been great, so I'm all for him continuing to record separate from the band if those are the results.
I thought James' vocals were great on SC and BC&SL as well. They didn't seem to ask as much range wise as TA but I thought he sung those albums impeccably.
-
I think James vocals on the last three records have been great, so I'm all for him continuing to record separate from the band if those are the results.
I thought James' vocals were great on SC and BC&SL as well. They didn't seem to ask as much range wise as TA but I thought he sung those albums impeccably.
I think James' studio performances are all really good. It usually comes down to my opinion of the material he's given to work with. For me personally, I like the last three albums more than SC and BC&SL in terms of melodies, so for me, his vocals are more enjoyable.
-
I do wonder if this is an effect of those being the three singles for the album
They were? See, I had NO idea that they were the singles. I don't pay attention as closely to DT as many here do. I just liked the tunes.
-
I do wonder if this is an effect of those being the three singles for the album
They were? See, I had NO idea that they were the singles. I don't pay attention as closely to DT as many here do. I just liked the tunes.
They are also three of the more, I guess I would say, "complete" songs in the aspect that they can stand on their own. A lot of the songs work better in context of the album, but specifically Our New World and Moment of Betrayal are very much typical DT single type songs that can be listened to without the context of the album and be pretty enjoyable.
-
There weren't really "singles" from this album. Yes, the band released those three as album teasers. But none of them were meant to be "singles" in the traditional sense. But then again, for all intents and purposes, it doesn't really matter and is largely a distinction without a difference for purposes of this discussion.
But I think you are right, Cram, about them being able to function as standalone songs more than some of the material on the album.
-
Those songs definitely have a standalone feel to them. They are very distinct from the surrounding sound, and wrap up neatly by the end. That may have been intentional or not, but it certainly predestined them to be used as singles.
-
Also Chosen could stand as a lone balladish piece.
-
Chosen was the best track on TA, IMO.
-
Chosen was the best track on TA, IMO.
Yup
Also Chosen could stand as a lone balladish piece.
and yea, I think this song works as well by itself.
-
Chosen is great. I wouldn't put it up there as the best track on the album, but I certainly consider it one of the standouts. I'm not going to rank them, but some of my favorites from the album are:
The Gift of Music
A Better Life
Lord Nefaryus
A Savior in the Square
Ravenskill
Chosen
A Tempting Offer
The X Aspect
2285 Entr'acte
Moment of Betrayal
Our New World
Yeah, that is VERY heavy on Act I. And yeah, I left off Three Days. If I had to do my next tier of songs that I like, but don't love, it would be in there. That tier would probably be something like:
When Your Time Has Come
Three Days
A Life Left Behind
A New Beginning
Heaven's Cove
The Astonishing
-
Chosen should be all over the radio. If it got that kind of exposure, alot of people would love it! It's alot better than most songs that are staple on mainstream radio. DT has alot of songs that would be radio friendly. I wonder why they don't get more exposure?? I know, record company contracts with radio stations blah blah blah..
-
Chosen should be all over the radio. If it got that kind of exposure, alot of people would love it! It's alot better than most songs that are staple on mainstream radio. DT has alot of songs that would be radio friendly. I wonder why they don't get more exposure?? I know, record company contracts with radio stations blah blah blah..
Also the stigma of being metal-ish.
Savatage had a song named Christmas Eve / Sarajevo, nobody noticed.
The exact same song was done by "Trans Siberian Orchestra" and made millions.
There are so many DT songs that sold properly, could be huge hits, but since it's from "prog metal, what it is, heavy guitars and 10 minutes songs?", nobody cares.
-
I think James did a fantastic job overrall, he's one of the members who shines the most on TA. Having said that, I still wish they got a female singer, just one (and not Lzzy Hale), and had her record all the female parts, with James singing all the male parts. They could've toured with her and that would've made the experience much more unique. Anneke Van Giersbergen would've been perfect for that.
It was a massive lost opportunity. It would have added separation in dialogues (unless you read the lyrics, who can actually keep track who is saying what when?), and it could have added duet style stuff, I.e. both singing at the same time.
That is so true. It would have enhanced the whole experience and make it much more credible. James singing the female parts (which he stil does quite good) doesn't do anything for me. I can just imagine how it would sound with someone like Anneke or Simone Simons (Lizzy Hale would also be fine for me).
-
Chalk up another vote to having multiple voices do the characters. James did a fine job, and from a practical standpoint of performing the album every night live, without the expense of more people having to be paid, I think it is fine. But from a purely artistic standpoint, A couple of legendary prog voices adding to the mix would have really gotten the record some more attention, and made it that much more dynamic.
-
I think there would have been endless complaints: It's not Dream Theater (which is already the opinion many have of the album), they went the Ayreon way, why bother with guest singers if James sings it all live anyway etc...
Also there are 8 characters, and James would have been lost in the shuffle. Which role would he keep? Nafaryus? Arhys, who dies 2/3 across the album meaning that you don't get to hear the DT singer on the climax of a DT album? the story has their protagonists but every one of them has a shining moment so it would be hard to rob James of some stellar vocal moments. For example, cast each character of SFAM, James would probably keep Nicholas, but that would mean he would miss almost entirely Home, the centerpiece of the album.
I would have welcomed additional singers, but probably it's best that this remained a DT album and not a DT-goes- Ayreon album.
-
Yeah, looking at it from that perspective, I agree.
However, in regard to the album itself, and what's best for the album, I wonder if having those singers, plus James, would have been the way to go, if this was released as a solo work from John, which, I am guessing, most of TA is? I honestly don't know the credits and whether JR was heavily involved in writing the tracks or not.
-
I don't think it would have needed a singer for each character tbh. A single female singer would have made a world of a difference, would have kept additional staff at bay etc, and lord knows, it would have given James time to rest.
-
I don't think it would have needed a singer for each character tbh. A single female singer would have made a world of a difference, would have kept additional staff at bay etc, and lord knows, it would have given James time to rest.
Yeah, like a split the difference scenario. Good point.
-
I don't think it would have needed a singer for each character tbh. A single female singer would have made a world of a difference, would have kept additional staff at bay etc, and lord knows, it would have given James time to rest.
Yeah, that could have been a good compromise between keeping it still DT and giving more depth to the range of characters.
-
p.s. bosk let me know a bit ago that TA was written musically by Jordan AND John, so my thought regarding John releasing it as his own work obviously is ridiculous. Nevermind! :lol
-
I dunno about Chosen being the best ballad... it's great but the 'I can't climb this mountain without you' feels a bit generic to me (https://youtu.be/Rkkw8RhH9ck?t=110)
-
"Chosen" is awesome. Is it cheesy as hell? Sure, but what power ballads aren't? :lol
For what it's worth, my wife loves that song to death, and she couldn't care less about DT or their kind of music in general. Catchy songs are catchy songs.
-
I don't think it would have needed a singer for each character tbh. A single female singer would have made a world of a difference, would have kept additional staff at bay etc, and lord knows, it would have given James time to rest.
Yeah, that could have been a good compromise between keeping it still DT and giving more depth to the range of characters.
Indeed, that would've been the perfect balance.
-
That said, I have the very strong suspicion that the inner dynamics of DT would not really allow a permanent touring member.
-
I think it would have been difficult to find a female singer who fits the style of the songs, the role of Faythe (Lizzy Hale didn't fit imo) and would have had the time to tour with DT AND gets along with 5 guys on the road for a year! Apart from this, it wouldn't have made TA more successful imo. The complaints from DT fans who didn't like TA had nothing to do with the vocals. They complained about the songs being too soft, the music boring, the whole thing being a musical and not a DT album, plus complaints about the story. Different singers for each role or just one female singer for the female parts wouldn't have helped in that regard. The album would have sounded even less like a DT album and more like a musical. It would have worked for the fans who love TA, but it wouldn't have made the album less disappointing for the others.
I love TA (apart from some problems with the storyline and the presentation of the characters), I also would love it with guest singers, though personally I think the way JLB embodies 7 characters with his voice, 2 females included, makes the album more special. Nothing against guest singers but that has been done so often, it would have been Ayreon meets Avantasia to me (I'm a fan of both btw).
One year on, thinking about the sad fact that TA didn't become the success it should have been (with 1, 2 or more singers, whatever) I wonder if it wouldn't have been wiser and more honest to release TA not as a DT album but a project of JP and JR. I know that JP and JR have always been the main writers of DT, but an album written solely by 2 of 5 band members, the others excluded, isn't really a band album imo. They could have hired James and a well chosen female vocalist who really fits, and instead of touring just have done a few special shows, filming one of them if financially possible. They could have done it with JM and MM (if they'd wanted to be a part of it) or with a different bassist and drummer. That way the fans wouldn't have expected a DT album/live show and would perhaps have been more open minded to something different. After that they could have toured I&W as they do now and then write a new DT album with (hopefully) everybody involved ...
Just some crazy thoughts too late at night ...
-
^
An aspect I had not thought of. Keep posting 'crazy thoughts' like this :tup
-
I feel like this album could have had much bigger success under a different band name, targeted at a different audience. My niece who pretty much exclusively listens to pop/Disney soundtracks loves TA (but no other DT) :lol
-
A bigger success? I don't know about that but yeah I'm not surprised about her reaction. I have read so much about guys bringing their girlfriends to the show but they don't like the rest of DT's music. It's an album of another type of art, could have been great for a movie or some science fiction cartoon for those who likes that.
-
TA also had an unfortunate amount of DT's infamous "homages". I would argue that an effort like TA, which is trying to draw you into a story, should stay away from reminding you of other songs overtly. The Tempus Fugit clone (A Life Left Behind) is of course the most egregious one, but right before that they're leaning rather heavily on The Wall (Brother Can You Hear Me).
-
TA also had an unfortunate amount of DT's infamous "homages". I would argue that an effort like TA, which is trying to draw you into a story, should stay away from reminding you of other songs overtly. The Tempus Fugit clone (A Life Left Behind) is of course the most egregious one, but right before that they're leaning rather heavily on The Wall (Brother Can You Hear Me).
Not a Yes fan (mostly because I never checked them out) but that beginning of A Life Left Behind is one of my favorite parts of TA. Just checked out The Tempus Fugit thing. God damn, you're right.
-
He wasn't asked to perform all roles. He insisted. JP originally considered hiring other vocalists for the female parts.
Interesting tidbit. More power to him. Glad he did all the parts.
Agreed. He hardly writes lyrics (I don't know if he prefers that) and I'm guessing he doesn't write the vocal melodies. LaBrie has other band members (or maybe one band member now) telling him how to sing...at least let him do all the damn vocals.
-
TA also had an unfortunate amount of DT's infamous "homages". I would argue that an effort like TA, which is trying to draw you into a story, should stay away from reminding you of other songs overtly. The Tempus Fugit clone (A Life Left Behind) is of course the most egregious one, but right before that they're leaning rather heavily on The Wall (Brother Can You Hear Me).
The (Brother Can You Hear Me) is more like Hemispheres by Rush. The "I have memory and awareness, but I have no shape or form" section.. To me, that's awesome and probably unintentional on DT's part. The music came out in JP's subconscious. Lol!
-
I think they should've released Act I as it was, (which would've ranked really high in DT's rankings for me), then maybe spending a few extra months on refining what they had for Act II & then going into the studio to record that.
Still ranks as their best for me. One of my favourite albums of all time. I agree the second half, particularity the story, feels rushed and not on par with the first half and I think the above idea would have been awesome. Release the first "half" as an album and then their next album is the second half. That would have given them more time write new material and really develop things more completely, and would have given us a couple years of debating what was to come next. That would have been SOOO epic.
-
TA also had an unfortunate amount of DT's infamous "homages". I would argue that an effort like TA, which is trying to draw you into a story, should stay away from reminding you of other songs overtly. The Tempus Fugit clone (A Life Left Behind) is of course the most egregious one, but right before that they're leaning rather heavily on The Wall (Brother Can You Hear Me).
The (Brother Can You Hear Me) is more like Hemispheres by Rush. The "I have memory and awareness, but I have no shape or form" section.. To me, that's awesome and probably unintentional on DT's part. The music came out in JP's subconscious. Lol!
If anything that DT does sounds like Rush, it's more than likely to be intentional. However, there is nothing in BCYHM that's sounds even remotely close to Rush. It's definitely closer to Pink Floyd.
-
I like the astonishing a lot. I just don't get a chance to listen to it as much as I would like, just due to its shear length.
-
A little geeky but that's interesting
"Mitch Gallagher sits down with acclaimed Engineer, Mixer, and Producer Richard Chycki. He talks with Mitch about the microphones used to record the latest Dream Theater album."
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=95Ke8UstPoo
-
awesome video, I love watching stuff like that
-
Still enjoy the album but cannot sit down and listen to the whole thing in one sitting anymore, always give up part way through. Listening in small chunks to and from work though, I always enjoy it. I would say though that the songs haven't grown on me in the sense that I'm still not keen on the songs that I wasn't keen on in the beginning.
-
a great achievement lovely music; james shines on this, we are lucky to have a band who can give us such diversity
-
I like TA a lot and everything, but I kind of wish it would have been one disc. I just can't ever seem to make it through the whole thing, even though I want to. And to be 100% honest, the songs blend together a little. Those would be my only nit picks.
Now compare that to something like operation mindcrime. One single disc. I make through the whole thing every time, and there are very distinct, unique and self-contained songs. With TA, I'm never like "oh I like such and such song" its more like. Yeah its a great album
Ultimately, I am still glad they reached for the stars on this one and tried something different.
-
The Astonishing has some very good moments. The "DT cheese factor" is pretty strong throughout the whole concept and performance. Seeing creepily animated people flying around on hovering platforms as fake trumpets blare was too cringe worthy....even for DT (Well, maybe it wasn't as cringe worthy a JP making us all think he is about to be raped by a crusty old man sucking on a pipe. :rollin). For my money, "Far From Heaven" > "Breaking All Illusions" > "Beneath the Surface" is one of their finest string of songs ever!
Anyhow, The Astonishing on first listen was far from my favorite. Today, it has grown on me a little more. I can always appreciate DT pushing new bounds, even if the end result is not to MY taste. In the end, I think we can all agree; Dream Theater is like sex....or pizza..... Even when it is "bad" it is still pretty good. :)
-
Love the album but have not once listened from Descent of the NOMACs all the way through to Astonishing.
-
I absolutely love it still. Has not gotten old. I still make sure to listen to it in it's entirety. I VERY RARELY go straight to a song out of context. Usually it's after I've just listened to it from start to finish. It's superb. Still hearing new things here and there.
-
To me it's already entirely out of my consciousness, and filed as an odd chapter in DT's history.
-
I still love it, even more because I've discovered new things that I haven't before. I usually don't have the time
for music anymore to listen to it in one go but I take chunks of 4-5 songs. I'm glad they tried something so different this time.
-
Still love if as well. It's been a few months since I've heard it top to bottom. Glad they took the chance to try something different and I'm very glad I got to see the live performance.
-
Favourite bit - "Evangeline" - epic.
Worst WTF bit - Daryus being pardoned for murder. It's a bit scary if JP thinks murder with the level of calculation by a member of the ruling class as portrayed in this musical is a pardonable offence. It basically recalls to me the Catholic Church using confession as a means to "forgive" child molestation in the clergy
Best dramatic bit - "Saviour" - "When your time has come" - lots of dramatic meaning for all the (dramatic) players here. Awesome JLB vocal.
Favourite DT-y bit - end of New Beginning (JM FTW!)
Most poppy bit - "new world" - this reminds me of something, but I don't know what ...
I went through a long time not listening to this but now listen to it again. The questionable morality behind it is something that undermines it but there is an emotional truth to it. There are more fun sci-fi epicy concept albums (i.e. Slough Feg's Traveller, and everything ziltoid) and songs (i.e. 2112)that kind of make this thing look a bit po faced; and as a mere mortal it's hard to relate to a chosen one genius guitarist singer. I don't really buy JP as a sci-fi fan I guess...
-
Worst WTF bit - Daryus being pardoned for murder. It's a bit scary if JP thinks murder with the level of calculation by a member of the ruling class as portrayed in this musical is a pardonable offence. It basically recalls to me the Catholic Church using confession as a means to "forgive" child molestation in the clergy
Keep in mind however that Daryus is deaf, so that's already a punishment in a sense.
Furthermore, no sympathy for me for the character in the story, but technically Daryus had a pact with Arhys and it was Aryhs who broke it, and then the sword fight ensued. If Arhys had sold out Gabriel, he wouldn't have killed him.
-
Most poppy bit - "new world" - this reminds me of something, but I don't know what ...
The vibe of Our New World reminds me of You're The Voice by John Farnham.
-
Most poppy bit - "new world" - this reminds me of something, but I don't know what ...
The vibe of Our New World reminds me of You're The Voice by John Farnham.
It reminds my of something off of a recent Journey album..
-
One thing I notice after the passage of time is that, while I think my affinity for Act I has grown stronger since release, I pay less attention during Act II. And emotionally, I tend to lose interest after Our New World and not really care about the closing track. I mean, in a live setting, Power Down and Astonishing are a pretty epic finish. I enjoyed them immensely both times I saw the show. But when listening to the album, I find myself tuning and out thinking about what else I can listen to once Our New World is over.
-
Interesting. I find disc one to drag a lot on repeat listens; it's mostly focused on the story and I kind of tune out listening to it nowadays. Whereas disc two grabs me from start to finish (besides Our New World which repeats the same thing over and over, Astonishing is like a reward for sitting through it :lol )
-
Worst WTF bit - Daryus being pardoned for murder. It's a bit scary if JP thinks murder with the level of calculation by a member of the ruling class as portrayed in this musical is a pardonable offence. It basically recalls to me the Catholic Church using confession as a means to "forgive" child molestation in the clergy
I went through a long time not listening to this but now listen to it again. The questionable morality behind it is something that undermines it but there is an emotional truth to it.
In fairness, in the album he was pardoned for the stabbing (obviously unintended) of Faythe, not the murder of Arhys. And you're overthinking things. It's a work of fiction. Just enjoy the music.
-
Worst WTF bit - Daryus being pardoned for murder. It's a bit scary if JP thinks murder with the level of calculation by a member of the ruling class as portrayed in this musical is a pardonable offence. It basically recalls to me the Catholic Church using confession as a means to "forgive" child molestation in the clergy
I went through a long time not listening to this but now listen to it again. The questionable morality behind it is something that undermines it but there is an emotional truth to it.
In fairness, in the album he was pardoned for the stabbing (obviously unintended) of Faythe, not the murder of Arhys. And you're overthinking things. It's a work of fiction. Just enjoy the music.
Let's also not forget that Daryus true penalty for his crimes was losing his hearing so he could not enjoy what Gabriel brought to everyone else. Whether you think that is just or not for the crime is one thing, but within the context of the story, it felt fine to me.
-
I sing this song for freedom
I fucking love this album.
-
I keep wanting to say something new or relevant regarding this album. Then I read some of the other threads recently, and so much that's posted has been better than I could write.....good or bad.
Having said that, as for what would be on my 'Best of DT....IV'....the last minute of the overture, 'The Gift of Music', the intro for 'Saviour in the Square', 'Our New World', and the final 2:34 of TA are all that merit inclusion. I like 'Chosen', would have preferred 'A Better Life' as its own song, and enjoy some of the fun moments throughout.
But, it is boring, repetitive, and 'preachy'. A shame that a bass, drum, and/or guitar solo were not used for 'battle' sequences. And, as mentioned so often, it is just too long. I try to listen to my less than 100 minute edit, but after about 10-15 minutes of various segments, I listen to other artists. I'll try again a week later, and then play some of SFAM, or my edited FII or 8vm or Six Degrees, or any of my greatest hits versions. A shame, because the there is so much to enjoy on TA. The effort and so many parts are enjoyable, the album as a whole (or edited) is something I cannot listen to.
-
I like 'Chosen', would have preferred 'A Better Life' as its own song, ...
??? A Better Life is its own song. What do you mean?
But, it is boring, repetitive, and 'preachy'.
I don't understand. How is it preachy?
Anyhow, those questions aside, I have seen many people reference their "abridged" versions. The only abridged version I heard was the press promo I get prior to release. That was good in terms of giving a good intro to the music. It did leave quite a bit to be desired as to the story itself, however. So I made a new version trying to pare down as much of the album as possible to 1 single CD length and preserve as much of the story as possible. It isn't perfect, but I enjoy it. Here is what I came up with:
Descent of the NOMACS (because intro)
Dystopian Overture (because intro x2)
The Gift of Music
The Answer (not critical to have, but helps the introduction of the characters flow, and is so short that it's not a problem to keep)
A Better Life
Lord Nefaryus
A Savior in the Square
When Your Time Has Come
Three Days (I get why we get Faythe's introduction before this song, and it is super important. But for an abridged version, skipping right to Three Days works so well)
Ravenskill
Chosen (just because it's a great song)
A Tempting Offer
The X Aspect (sets up Moment of Betrayal so well)
Moment of Betrayal
The Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell
Astonishing
Our New World (I fully agree with Astonishing being the closing track on the album. But for an abridged version, this works better as a closer. And the music flows nicely doing it this way)
That is about 74 minutes. I could add another song, but don't feel the need. And, yes, I know I left off A New Beginning. As nice as that solo section is at the end, I don't mind losing the song because this is already long, and it flows well without that song. This collection also really marginalizes Faythe because we lose virtually every song that has any major character development for her. But for a single album's worth of songs, it works well emphasizing Arhrys, Gabriel, and Nefaryus, and pushing the other characters to the background.
-
Yea I dont know, I get the idea of an abridged version, but I feel like if I am going to lsiten to the album, not just sections like I typically do, then I want the whole thing. I get it, it's long and people just don't have the time for music anymore, but it's really hard for me to listen to an abridged version and be cool with it. I just prefer to listen to groupings of songs or each disc. Having said that, the last time I listened to the whole album at once was probably when I last saw them perform it in October.
-
Yeah, I hear you. I can't really disagree. But at the same time, there is just the reality of--yeah, I actually DON'T have time to listen to the entire thing very often. It is my favorite album to listen to when I am cycling, but I am really skittish about wearing earbuds when I am on the road, and only do it for the 23 miles or so that I am on the bike trail, which only gives me time for Act I.
-
I actually haven't made an abridged single CD, but after reading the last few posts, I'm inclined to do so. There is literally never a chance to hear the thing in it's entirety. There fore, I don't listen to it....but I love it, so I want to listen. If I could pare it down to something manageable with "my" better tracks, then that would be good.
-
I like 'Chosen', would have preferred 'A Better Life' as its own song, ...
??? A Better Life is its own song. What do you mean?
But, it is boring, repetitive, and 'preachy'.
I don't understand. How is it preachy?
I made a mistake. I should have written 'A Life Left Behind'. My bad. Damn, I love that song. But....it should have had the chorus continue on and fade out, instead of changing direction.
Preachy.......the constant 'Gabriel, my son', 'where's there's Faith, there is hope'.
When my wife and I watched JC Superstar Easter Sunday evening (a tradition), when the soldiers are marching above the cave at the beginning of 'What's The Buzz?', I swear that those same footsteps are used at the beginning of 'Ravenskill'.
Anyhoo....just trying to put some of my thoughts into the recent band release......which lacked.....'something'. Hard to explain.
-
I actually haven't made an abridged single CD, but after reading the last few posts, I'm inclined to do so. There is literally never a chance to hear the thing in it's entirety. There fore, I don't listen to it....but I love it, so I want to listen. If I could pare it down to something manageable with "my" better tracks, then that would be good.
Done!
The Gift Of Music
Lord Nefaryus
A Savior In The Square
When Your Time Has Come
Act Of Faythe
Three Days
Ravenskill
A Tempting Offer
The X Aspect
A New Beginning
Moment Of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell
Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
73:09
-
Preachy.......the constant 'Gabriel, my son', 'where's there's Faith, there is hope'.
But how is that preachy? I still don't understand.
-
Also just because Gabriel is the name of an angel in the bible, it doesn't make it preachy. I hear a little biblical overtones in TA but that's ok, I also hear it with alot of 2112 overtones throughout. A futuristic hero leading a revolution through music.. Even if TA were to be preachy, it wouldn't bother me because the music is so awesome!
-
Also just because Gabriel is the name of an angel in the bible...
Okay, but it doesn't have anything to do with THAT Gabriel. There's no link at all.
I hear a little biblical overtones in TA...
??? I don't.
-
Just looking through the song titles, many of them have biblical/religious overtones: A Savior In The Square, Act Of Faythe, Three Days, Moment Of Betrayal, Heaven's Cove, Hymn Of A Thousand Voices.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
-
Also just because Gabriel is the name of an angel in the bible...
Okay, but it doesn't have anything to do with THAT Gabriel. There's no link at all.
I hear a little biblical overtones in TA...
??? I don't.
That's what I was saying about Gabriel. Just because it is a biblical name, it doesn't mean it was THAT Gabriel.
As far as song titles with a religious biblical overtones, Sycsa has a point in his last post.
-
Just looking through the song titles, many of them have biblical/religious overtones: A Savior In The Square, Act Of Faythe, Three Days, Moment Of Betrayal, Heaven's Cove, Hymn Of A Thousand Voices.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
And Train of Thought had Endless Sacrifice, In the Name of God, Honor Thy Father... I remember the fears before the album was out that it was all religious, and it was not.
-
Just looking through the song titles, many of them have biblical/religious overtones: A Savior In The Square, Act Of Faythe, Three Days, Moment Of Betrayal, Heaven's Cove, Hymn Of A Thousand Voices.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
And Train of Thought had Endless Sacrifice, In the Name of God, Honor Thy Father... I remember the fears before the album was out that it was all religious, and it was not.
Nobody says either of these are religious albums, we're merely talking overtones, inspiration.
That's what I was saying about Gabriel. Just because it is a biblical name, it doesn't mean it was THAT Gabriel.
Maybe it's this one
(https://s4.evcdn.com/images/block250/I0-001/017/739/603-9.jpeg_/gabriel-iglesias-03.jpeg)
-
:lol
-
So I have started listening to my Abridged Astonishing and I must say that I think The Gift Of Music is fantastic. I think it's the best song on the album.
-
Also just because Gabriel is the name of an angel in the bible...
Okay, but it doesn't have anything to do with THAT Gabriel. There's no link at all.
I hear a little biblical overtones in TA...
??? I don't.
That's what I was saying about Gabriel. Just because it is a biblical name, it doesn't mean it was THAT Gabriel.
As far as song titles with a religious biblical overtones, Sycsa has a point in his last post.
Yes, but religious allusion is a VERY far cry from being "preachy," so that's why I questioned it. But whatever. I'm probably being too literal. Not a big deal.
-
I just think that any story which includes moral dilemma, faith of any kind (in TA, it's humanity), character and integrity, will likely mirror a lot of what does on in Biblical stories. I don't find anything really religious at all, but if you point to things like "Gabriel", "Heaven's Cove", etc..., I just find those type of terms to be general guideposts to this type of story.
-
Weelll, but then there's lyrics like "savior in the square" and stuff. I don't find TA to be preachy either, but I think it's without doubt that Gabriel has elements of Jesus in him.
-
True, but it doesn't necessarily make it religious. I mean, they even use the word "god" in TGOM don't they?
Like I said, terms like that are guideposts. It doesn't make it preachy in any way.
-
Weelll, but then there's lyrics like "savior in the square" and stuff. I don't find TA to be preachy either, but I think it's without doubt that Gabriel has elements of Jesus in him.
Yeah, I agree with that. And I made this point in one of the threads awhile ago, but I'll repeated it: I think there is a cool double meaning for the title in Savior In the Square. If we are debating symbolism, I think that while the title is obviously meant to refer to Gabriel, it also refers to Faythe, since she also has some Jesus symbolism built into her character as well. First, her actions set in motion the series of events that eventually lead to the "salvation"/freeing of the people of Ravenskill and, presumably, the other commoners throughout the empire. Second, she is (unwittingly) betrayed and killed. Third, she is resurrected. It isn't a perfect correlation to the accounts of Jesus, but as is the case with most Jesus symbolism in literature, it isn't meant to be. But there is enough there that I think she is most definitely a "savior" in the story. ...which makes her the other "savior in the square" at that time in the story.
Again, that doesn't make it "religious" or "preachy." It's being used as a literary device, just as countless authors, playwrights, songwriters, etc. who aren't necessarily religious and aren't necessarily trying to convey a religious message in their art.
-
I also think it's extremely possible to have lyrics that are religious or have obvious religious symbolism, without being preachy.
Preachy is telling the audience to believe certain things. Singing about religious beliefs isn't always preachy.
-
I also think it's extremely possible to have lyrics that are religious or have obvious religious symbolism, without being preachy.
Preachy is telling the audience to believe certain things. Singing about religious beliefs isn't always preachy.
Right. A good example that springs to my mind is Neal Morse. In his solo material, he is using religious symbolism for the purpose of preaching his beliefs. But in Transatlantic, for example, he is more using religious symbolism as a literary device and not to be preachy (for the most part), and just because that is something that is so ingrained in him and important in his life that he cannot/will not divorce himself from that when writing lyrics. And then on top of Neal, you have Roine in Transatlantic who I think would consider himself "spiritual; not religious" and also uses religious symbolism as a literary device, but not to preach.
-
Again, that doesn't make it "religious" or "preachy." It's being used as a literary device, just as countless authors, playwrights, songwriters, etc. who aren't necessarily religious and aren't necessarily trying to convey a religious message in their art.
Literary device. That's the term that's eluded me.
-
I also think it's extremely possible to have lyrics that are religious or have obvious religious symbolism, without being preachy.
Preachy is telling the audience to believe certain things. Singing about religious beliefs isn't always preachy.
Right. A good example that springs to my mind is Neal Morse. In his solo material, he is using religious symbolism for the purpose of preaching his beliefs. But in Transatlantic, for example, he is more using religious symbolism as a literary device and not to be preachy (for the most part), and just because that is something that is so ingrained in him and important in his life that he cannot/will not divorce himself from that when writing lyrics. And then on top of Neal, you have Roine in Transatlantic who I think would consider himself "spiritual; not religious" and also uses religious symbolism as a literary device, but not to preach.
Mostly agree with you, with the exception of Whirlwind. That album is Morse-y in that regard.
-
Yeah, I'll buy that. I don't take it that way, but I can see where there is plenty of room to feel otherwise.
-
People were comparing TA to Jesus Christ Superstar. I get it, there are similarities and there is some religious overtones although pretty loose, other than the savior part, but I can't recall anything on the album that sounded preachy to me. If it preached anything, it was about the importance of music in happiness, not anything religious.
-
People were comparing TA to Jesus Christ Superstar. I get it, there are similarities and there is some religious overtones although pretty loose, other than the savior part, but I can't recall anything on the album that sounded preachy to me. If it preached anything, it was about the importance of music in happiness, not anything religious.
Yeah, that's a fair comparison for a lot of reasons--not the least of which is JP himself saying it was an inspiration. But many people are also confused about the fact that JCS itself is not meant to be "religious" or preachy, notwithstanding the fact that it is a fictional, poetic retelling of the Jesus story. Anyone who considers it religious or preachy doesn't really know either the Biblical accounts of Jesus, or Andrew Lloyd Webber, or both. :lol
-
Anyone who considers it religious or preachy doesn't really know either the Biblical accounts of Jesus, or Andrew Lloyd Webber, or both. :lol
I must confess, I am unfamiliar with the Biblical accounts of Andrew Lloyd Weber.
-
Well then, you are simply unseasoned. :TOX:
-
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/20081676_9_600_600_zpsovc5ef64.jpg)
-
Anyone who considers it religious or preachy doesn't really know either the Biblical accounts of Jesus, or Andrew Lloyd Webber, or both. :lol
I must confess, I am unfamiliar with the Biblical accounts of Andrew Lloyd Weber.
The Ugly Faced Charlatan of Galilee
-
I find listening to TA in chunks is the best way to go. Treat it like a 4 LP set, 8 sides. 20-25 minute segments at a time. The album is really long winded and I just feel fatigued if I listen to it in one session. It's the only DT album I listen to it all or nothing. I don't listen to individual tracks much.
-
I find that I listen to individual songs or I can put on an "Act" in the background and listen to it all.
I've still never listened to all 130 mins in one go.
-
My abridged version tracklist:
Dystopian Overture
Gift of Music
A Better Life
A Savior in the Square
When Your Time Has Come
Three Days
Ravenskill
A Tempting Offer
A New Beginning
The Road To Revolution
2285 Entr'acte
Moment of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell
Our New World
Astonishing
1 Hr 22 mins
-
Back a year ago, I thought it was one of the very best albums they ever did.
A year later I can acknowledge the album has quite a few issues, mostly length related.
Also, I feel that after 'My Last Farewell' I lose interest and stop listening. These last tracks drag on way too much in my opinion.
-
I wouldn't be able to make an abridged version of The Astonishing if my life depended on it. I can pick favorites and lesser favorites, but I wouldn't be able to shorten it. The flow is terrific as it is and even the songs that are less interesting serve a purpose and at least function well as transitions.
-
I wouldn't be able to make an abridged version of The Astonishing if my life depended on it. I can pick favorites and lesser favorites, but I wouldn't be able to shorten it. The flow is terrific as it is and even the songs that are less interesting serve a purpose and at least function well as transitions.
Quoted for truth...
-
Also, I feel that after 'My Last Farewell' I lose interest and stop listening. These last tracks drag on way too much in my opinion.
I stop listening after " The Astonishing "... :neverusethis:
-
My abridged version is probably the longest of them all, I just cut some things here and there and removed the songs I liked least:
01 - Descent of the NOMACS (1:10)
02 - Dystopian Overture (4:33)
03 - The Gift of Music (4:00)
04 - The Answer (1:52)
05 - A Better Life (4:39)
06 - Lord Nafaryus (3:28)
07 - A Savior in the Square (4:13)
08 - When Your Time Has Come (4:19)
09 - Act of Faythe (3:54)
10 - Three Days (3:44)
11 - Brother, Can You Hear Me? (5:11)
12 - A Life Left Behind (4:00)
13 - Ravenskill (6:01)
14 - Chosen (4:32)
15 - A Tempting Offer (4:19)
16 - A New Beginning (4:58)
17 - The Road to Revolution (3:35)
18 - Moment of Betrayal (5:48)
19 - The Path that Divides (4:46)
20 - The Walking Shadow (1:58)
21 - My Last Farewell (3:44)
22 - Losing Faythe (3:54)
23 - Hymn of a Thousand Voices (3:38)
24 - Our New World (4:12)
25 - Astonishing (5:51)
1h42'19''.
I've left the song lengths to show the cuts here and there I did, basically they are:
- Dystopian Overture: cut the little noodling back and forth between the single instruments in the middle of the song, I felt it was the only self-indulgent part of the overture
- Act of Faythe: removed the entire intro, it starts right with the piano
- A Life Left Behind: cut almost entirely the intro (yeah, I know, blasphemy) and the choruses in the middle, to get faster to the "I'll plan to return well disguised" section
- A New Beginning: this will probably get me banned :biggrin: , but I cut a lot of the outro solo, I've done a long fade out before the final Petrucci solo kicks in
- Moments of Betrayal: cut the whole coming-from-Entr'acte intro, it starts right when the instruments come in
- The Walking Shadow: cut a bit of the section that leads to the final part, when you hear the steps of Faythe
- Losing Faythe: removed all the cheesy crying at the beginning, to start right when James sings
-
I wonder if it's feasible to edit the tracks to transition into each other instead of having so many 'epic endings'
-
Thoughts after all this time:
At first I thought this album was amazing. Musically they did some new and exciting things like the ragtime blast beats thing which was awesome.
But like a lot of others have said, their are too many epic endings. I keep thinking it's over and then more music starts again.
In my opinion, there are way too many ballads. I was never really big into DT ballads. They tend to be just a tad too cheesy for my taste. And this album is chock full of them.
And lastly, I am seriously getting the impression that JP wants to turn DT into a Christian Prog Rock band. It's no secret he is a devout christian (no big deal) and listens to a lot of christian rock and metal bands (Red for example - build me up break me down. - again, no big deal.) But it seems like most of the songs on Astonishing were first written as a desire to write christian music, and then salvaged later to make it DT music. Act of Faythe... really? Gabriel? This is a christian album in disguise. I would know, in 12 years of catholic school I've heard my fair share of christian music and The Astonishing is giving me PTSD flashbacks. "OUR GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD HE REIGNS FROM HEAVEN ABOVE." Kill me please.
-
But like a lot of others have said, their are too many epic endings. I keep thinking it's over and then more music starts again.
Well, since it's supposed to be structurally patterned in the broadway musical vein, that was intentional and is to be expected. If you don't like it, that's all well and good. But it is exactly what it is supposed to be in that regard.
And lastly, I am seriously getting the impression that JP wants to turn DT into a Christian Prog Rock band. It's no secret he is a devout christian (no big deal) and listens to a lot of christian rock and metal bands...
:lol What? Trying to turn DT into a "Christian Prog Rock band?" No. "Devout Christian?" Strike 2. Listens to a lot of "Christian rock and metal bands?" Other than Red (and not sure he listens to them anymore), not that I'm aware of. Strike 3. Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.
The Astonishing is not a "Christian album" and DT is not a "Christian band." (although I would love it if either of those were true) You are mistaken.
-
But like a lot of others have said, their are too many epic endings. I keep thinking it's over and then more music starts again.
Well, since it's supposed to be structurally patterned in the broadway musical vein, that was intentional and is to be expected. If you don't like it, that's all well and good. But it is exactly what it is supposed to be in that regard.
And lastly, I am seriously getting the impression that JP wants to turn DT into a Christian Prog Rock band. It's no secret he is a devout christian (no big deal) and listens to a lot of christian rock and metal bands...
:lol What? Trying to turn DT into a "Christian Prog Rock band?" No. "Devout Christian?" Strike 2. Listens to a lot of "Christian rock and metal bands?" Other than Red (and not sure he listens to them anymore), not that I'm aware of. Strike 3. Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.
The Astonishing is not a "Christian album" and DT is not a "Christian band." (although I would love it if either of those were true) You are mistaken.
Thanks for your condescending response.
-
Not sure what is condescending about it. You posted some things as facts, but your facts are unequivocally wrong, so I'm not sure how else to say it. I mean, when you say, for example, that it is no secret that JP is a devout Christian, when that is in fact NOT the case, I'm not sure what else can be said other than, "No, that's not accurate at all." :dunno:
-
Yeah, I don't see much reason to believe he is a devout Christian. That kinda of thing would have shone through a lot earlier than on TA. Honestly, the Gabriel/Jesus thing was rather a literary low-hanging fruit for JP I think.
-
This thread was basically dead, I comment on other bands, TV shows, etc....so I thought I would comment on 'how I feel' about the album.
And, now, I'll point out 'specifically': yes, the album is 'preachy' (for lack of a better term). I heard this from friends of mine that I provided the discs for. And it ruins my enjoyment because of it.
'Overreacting'? No. Just as those who thought DT was overpreaching on 'ITNoG', 'PoW' and 'Sacrificed Sons' (tracks that I thought were basic 'feelings' of 'what was going on', and not anti-religious).
Do I need to curb my feelings in regards to TA and its semi blantant regious overtures?
Nope.
My opinion.
After being a fan for 14 years....whether right or wrong, I am entitled, because the album didn't match what I had hoped it would be.
-
^Oh, absolutely, man. I wasn't calling you out. If you felt like I was, I apologize. I thought my posts were reasonably clear that I just disagree and was asking for clarification as to why you felt that way. Nothing wrong with having the discussion.
-
^
Yes, sir.....I did think you were 'calling me out'. I was simply trying to discuss what was 'amiss' on TA, because I was so hyped on the 'hype' of the latest release.
No harm, no foul. I do appreciate your comments. This is what 'discussion' is, after all. And, I am looking forward to other observations of what DT fans think 16+ months later.
I wish the LP was better. And shorter. I do love so much of the different aspects, but am disappointed in how I feel about other aspects. Just wish it had fit into what I had hoped for.
-
Petrucci has said a number of times that he is Catholic and " it's important to him ".
I dunno if you could call him a devout catholic though. He hasn't gone into depth about it.
-
Petrucci has said a number of times that he is Catholic and " it's important to him ".
Correct.
-
Love the Astonishing album and Mangini's playing on it! It's refreshing to be on this forum and actually having the freedom to say that without being banned. I enjoy the topics sometimes on the MP forum and do post there but that aspect of it seems constricting.
-
I still dig this album a hell of a lot these days and still have the same minor quibbles (an awkward lyric choice here, an awkward sound effect there). I think if I could change one thing I'd have wanted them to forgo the CD "act" format and digitally release the "complete" version (i.e. the dorky narration at the beginning and the non-faded New Beginning... wouldn't mind the fixing of a few production glitches either). But I still love singing along like a cheeseball to its infinite bombast.
-
Oh, it's a great album. I think I do like the first disc better.
One year on and I'm still nitpicking on "Our New World". It's supposed to be one of the big closers, man! ACT LIKE YOU'RE A BIG FUCKING SONG!
-
Just listened to the whole album today, and, imo, it still holds up pretty well. It's such a fantastic record! I currently rank it 3rd on my DT list, after SFAM and SDOIT.
-
I still love the album like the first time I listened to it. Anyway, it's not perfect.
I think that the fact JP and JR worked by themselves on the writing process influenced the result.
Too many songs with a piano intros and a lack of energy. It should have been just a bit more "metal".
And the plot has nothing to do with SFAM, but probably because I'm much more into thrillers than sci-fi...
Anyway I love TA and I would have loved to have a live version on DVD!
-
I agree! The lack of energy, prog and maybe a more metal is my biggest complain. Piano is my favorite instrument and I love listening to musicals like JCS, but it just falls in the same soft spot to many times. Sometimes when I hear Gift of Music is wonder what could have been if it followed that energy a bit more.
I think cd 2 is a good example of where the energy just jumps too much for me. It builds so nicely after leaving us with A New Beginning and after short interlude a Moment of Betrayal sets the tone perfectly. Just when it seems the drama and real prog energy is coming Begin Again starts. It just breaks my energy every time. Suddenly we're back to the "oh you are all in life, bla bla I dream we are awesome bla bla life is great with you bla bla". Feel like I heard that song 5 times before on cd 1. Then A Path that Divides takes place and the energy is back 1000% and I just love it. Everything is perfect up until the ending of My Last Farewell where it just goes back to the same slower energy and basically ends there.
Feels like a movie where the director don't dare to cut anything out because it's actually a good scene by it's own, but it just don't flow perfectly with the rest.
Still, it's a very good album with some awesome highlights.
-
The Astonishing is proof that DT needs a producer.
-
The Astonishing is proof that DT needs a producer.
I don't think anything went wrong with TA (or, at least, nothing big), but I also think it would be good for DT to work with an external producer this time.
-
The Astonishing is proof that DT needs a producer.
I don't think anything went wrong with TA (or, at least, nothing big), but I also think it would be good for DT to work with an external producer this time.
I think it lacks dynamics, and a sense of conclusion...it just ends, and musically you don't get the sense of epiphany that the story is willing to convey. The whole album did not captivate me for repeated listens, and it was the first tour I skipped after becoming a fan.
-
I don't think I could disagree more. To my ears, it's incredibly dynamic and for me there is a kind of euphoria by the time I've reached the end.
Personal, I don't think the album needed to be any heavier. It was beautifully done and is an amazing addition to their catalogue. When I want heavier I have plenty others to choose from.
That being said, I get that it was always going to have the "not heavy enough" criticisms. Just as Train of Thought has the "too heavy" criticisms.
-
Production isn't the issue for me at all, one way or another. I simply do not like the album musically as a whole. Sure it has moments, but they are too short lived and few and far between. A progressive metal band should be on the heavy side. That's what metal is. I don't think there were nearly as many complaints about ToT being too heavy as there are for TA not being heavy enough.
-
Production isn't the issue for me at all, one way or another. I simply do not like the album musically as a whole. Sure it has moments, but they are too short lived and few and far between. A progressive metal band should be on the heavy side. That's what metal is. I don't think there were nearly as many complaints about ToT being too heavy as there are for TA not being heavy enough.
I think TOT is too heavy just for the sake of being heavy.
-
I just listened to this again yesterday. Still amazing.
-
I have listened to TA in its entirety only twice since its release. So that pretty much says it all. Its not a bad album and its not a great album. Its just there, much like tofu. Its just there.
-
I think external producer would be nice in case of TA, not other albums necessary. It is really a big complex project and because it's more driven as a movie it's good to have someone say "I think we need to cut this out", or direct the flow of the whole story. It's just complex as is to write the music, which they did a wonderful job at!
-
I might be the only one, but I don't want them to get an external producer. TA I'd one of my favorite DT albums, and I love the two before it as well. If at some point JP decides he wants to work with someone else, great. Otherwise, I looking forward to what comes next just from DT.
-
Anyone else in the same boat as me? I really love The Astonishing and listen to it loads, but have no interest in DT's next album, as it's probably gonna be more along the lines of DT12.
-
I haven't given The Astonishing a spin in a while. To be honest, I think I burned myself out on it last year. :lol I definitely need to make time to do it again soon.
-
I treat The Astonishing like any Ayreon album. I heard it in full a few times, really enjoyed it, and from there I was able to whittle down which songs are my favorites, the ones I'll put on in any given mood. I haven't spun the entire thing or either disc in full for quite some time but I still listen to Lord Nafaryus and Three Days regularly. Three Days might be the greatest song the band's written in a long time imo - short, sweet, it has it all, I've expressed my love for it here and at MP's forum.
A year and a half later I think The Astonishing is the best Dream Theater album since Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. The production is great, there's beautiful playing from every member, James's voice is on fire, and despite Petrucci bashing you over the head with not so subtle religious messages and nomenclature it's an awesome record with a fun story. Seeing it live really drove the story point home - this is an album meant to be experienced live like theater, this would be so good if they had real actors in the background performing the story.
Anyone else in the same boat as me? I really love The Astonishing and listen to it loads, but have no interest in DT's next album, as it's probably gonna be more along the lines of DT12.
EDIT: Move over, I'm jumping in. DT12 is one of my least favorite DT albums. Even the couple of songs I like I don't listen to much because the production is somehow worse than on ADTOE. Illumination Theory has its moments but it feels more disjointed and less fluid than their other epics. That string section, and the crack of Mangini's fill before the 'to really feel the joy in life' lyric, hooboy. That's magic.
-
I might be the only one, but I don't want them to get an external producer. TA I'd one of my favorite DT albums, and I love the two before it as well. If at some point JP decides he wants to work with someone else, great. Otherwise, I looking forward to what comes next just from DT.
I love the last 3 albums as well! I rank them very high on my DT list, and don’t think there’s anything wrong with JP being the only producer for the band. However, I’d love to see them bring an outside producer with a fresh approach for the next album. It would still sound like and be DT, but with a different feel to it, and that would be a really nice change, only if it’s just for one album. Sometimes it’s good to collaborate with someone with a different approach to help you push the boundaries.
-
I love the last 3 albums as well! I rank them very high on my DT list, and don’t think there’s anything wrong with JP being the only producer for the band.
Same here. Rethinking my album rankings and TA's place in that list, I came to re-realize how the band's entire career has produced some really stellar music, and TA fits right in. Interestingly, my top 6 divides neatly into pairs of albums from each of the band's three major eras, as follows:
1. Six Degrees
2. SFAM
3. ADTOE
4. DT12
5. I&W
6. Awake
Those are the "stellar" albums for me. In the middle, I have the "great albums" (not necessarily in order) of FII, Octavarium, SC, and TA. TA probably leads them. I still really like it. I was just trying to place it in historical context in my mind when, say, we are 2 more albums down the road rather than it being the "latest." I think I will still enjoy it. But the dropoff for me between disk 1 and disk 2 knocks it down into that second tier. But disk 1 has become the soundtrack for my 25-mile bike ride home from work, and I really enjoy immersing myself in it on those rides.
-
Dream Theater have produced some really good music over the years, and I think they're in great shape for a band of their tenure. To me, they're the equivalent of an NBA Hall of Famer who's maybe not quite as good as he used to be, but he's still putting up All Star-caliber seasons into his mid-30s. He may not be winning MVP awards anymore, but you don't really expect him to, and it's remarkable that he's still this good this late.
-
Production isn't the issue for me at all, one way or another. I simply do not like the album musically as a whole. Sure it has moments, but they are too short lived and few and far between. A progressive metal band should be on the heavy side. That's what metal is. I don't think there were nearly as many complaints about ToT being too heavy as there are for TA not being heavy enough.
I think TOT is too heavy just for the sake of being heavy.
Maybe, but TA is too different just for the sake of being different.
-
I might be the only one, but I don't want them to get an external producer. TA I'd one of my favorite DT albums, and I love the two before it as well. If at some point JP decides he wants to work with someone else, great. Otherwise, I looking forward to what comes next just from DT.
I love the last 3 albums as well! I rank them very high on my DT list, and don’t think there’s anything wrong with JP being the only producer for the band. However, I’d love to see them bring an outside producer with a fresh approach for the next album. It would still sound like and be DT, but with a different feel to it, and that would be a really nice change, only if it’s just for one album. Sometimes it’s good to collaborate with someone with a different approach to help you push the boundaries.
I get that, and would be fine with it if that's what JP was moved to do. But I'm not longing for it, and I don't think if it happened it would be guaranteed to produce better results. The Astonishing was like a breath of fresh air to me, and shows that they're capable of creating something new, different, and beautiful all on their own.
-
I treat The Astonishing like any Ayreon album. I heard it in full a few times, really enjoyed it, and from there I was able to whittle down which songs are my favorites, the ones I'll put on in any given mood. I haven't spun the entire thing or either disc in full for quite some time but I still listen to Lord Nafaryus and Three Days regularly. Three Days might be the greatest song the band's written in a long time imo - short, sweet, it has it all, I've expressed my love for it here and at MP's forum.
A year and a half later I think The Astonishing is the best Dream Theater album since Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. The production is great, there's beautiful playing from every member, James's voice is on fire, and despite Petrucci bashing you over the head with not so subtle religious messages and nomenclature it's an awesome record with a fun story. Seeing it live really drove the story point home - this is an album meant to be experienced live like theater, this would be so good if they had real actors in the background performing the story.
I agree with pretty much all of the above. I'm glad there weren't actors on the tour, but I do think it would be incredible to see a theater type production one day.
I haven't listened to TA in its entirety for a few months, but that's due to other things. I do often listen to the whole thing when I decide to listen to it - maybe not always all at once, but I pick up where I left off if interrupted.
Anyone else in the same boat as me? I really love The Astonishing and listen to it loads, but have no interest in DT's next album, as it's probably gonna be more along the lines of DT12.
EDIT: Move over, I'm jumping in. DT12 is one of my least favorite DT albums. Even the couple of songs I like I don't listen to much because the production is somehow worse than on ADTOE. Illumination Theory has its moments but it feels more disjointed and less fluid than their other epics. That string section, and the crack of Mangini's fill before the 'to really feel the joy in life' lyric, hooboy. That's magic.
Well, you're wrong about this album. Just plain wrong. ;)
Or, you could be right about the production - I don't pay attention to that and it probably has to be Vapor Trails for me to notice. But totally wrong that the songs aren't all amazing. :)
-
I have actually never finished listening to this album. The first time that I listened to Disc 1 all the way through I kept thinking - 'Is it finally over? Will it move to Disc 2 finally?'. I just remember being so bored by the whole thing. In my mind, the first disc alone felt like a double album. To this day, I have not heard a note of Disc 2. I've had no desire to even go back to it. That doesn't mean I never will, but I have over 25,000 songs in my library to keep me busy.
For me, post MP DT has been like the analogy that many people use for the TOS Star Trek movies. The even numbered ones are really good. The odds, not so much. So yes, that means I only like one album since the event. Here's to hoping the next one is in the vein of the self-titled.
-
Did you only listen to disc 1 that one time, Prof?
I feel like - I dunno. I think there are so many beautiful melodies on that album and if you (general you) start from that and sit with it a bit you'll start to get into it more.
-
I hope you can find time at some point to listen to disc 2, or even play the whole thing again someday, PP.
-
I have actually never finished listening to this album. The first time that I listened to Disc 1 all the way through I kept thinking - 'Is it finally over? Will it move to Disc 2 finally?'. I just remember being so bored by the whole thing. In my mind, the first disc alone felt like a double album. To this day, I have not heard a note of Disc 2. I've had no desire to even go back to it. That doesn't mean I never will, but I have over 25,000 songs in my library to keep me busy.
To really "get" this album, I think you have to (1) put it in context of what it is, and (2) immerse yourself in it for at least one listen to try to figure out how the music and story relate. To do that, I think it is helpful to first take a moment and read the song-by-song plot summaries on DT.net, and then listen to the album once through in its entirety where you can sit and just pay attention to the music and story together, with the plot summaries in mind. And I think you have to keep in mind that, structure-wise, it is meant to follow the broadway musical two-act structure. That is why certain songs are the way they are, including the final song, which isn't the story's climax and isn't the big, epic ending one might expect for a concept album.
That is what I think it takes to understand and appreciate the album. Whether or not you want to make such an investment in time is another story, and I fully get it you aren't inclined to do so. That is entirely your prerogative. But I will say that if I hadn't taken the time to do that, I don't think I would have nearly the appreciation that I have for the album, and I might not like it much either.
-
What made me 'get' the album, was watching the (now gone) Youtube video that had lyrics and pictures of the backgrounds and characters when they were 'talking'. The visual aspect helped be immersed in the story a bit more. Having a face attached to each lyric makes the characters seem more 'real', and not just some esoteric idea placed in a normal DT song. After that, I could listen to the album normally and listen for all the reocurring themes, and start to get an appreciation for all the drum and guitar parts. :) A few more listens after that, I was all ready to nitpick and complain on the forums
-
To really "get" this album, I think you have to (1)
...........Totally forget it's by Dream Theater and treat it as a "project involving some very talented musicians from all different genre's of rock".
It's the only way I can even begin to listen to it without destroying my memories and love for what DT have done in their brilliant career.
-
Not even.
-
To really "get" this album, I think you have to (1)
...........Totally forget it's by Dream Theater and treat it as a "project involving some very talented musicians from all different genre's of rock".
It's the only way I can even begin to listen to it without destroying my memories and love for what DT have done in their brilliant career.
Really? I understand not liking the album, but it's so clear listening to it that it's still Petrucci and Rudess behind the music. It's a very different kind of Dream Theater, but it's still obviously Dream Theater, it's not that the music, even though oriented to the "rock opera" format, is completely and totally removed from anything they've ever done.
-
Yeah I don't get that ... saying that it is not Dream Theater. It's not that different from their earlier catalogue.
It definiteley caters more for the prog fans than the metal fans but it's not like they have done a polka rap record....
-
I wish they make an 5.1 surround bluray,that should be awesome!! The Astonishing was my favorite over the year played it 2 times a day.
-
To really "get" this album, I think you have to (1)
...........Totally forget it's by Dream Theater and treat it as a "project involving some very talented musicians from all different genre's of rock".
It's the only way I can even begin to listen to it without destroying my memories and love for what DT have done in their brilliant career.
Really? I understand not liking the album, but it's so clear listening to it that it's still Petrucci and Rudess behind the music. It's a very different kind of Dream Theater, but it's still obviously Dream Theater, it's not that the music, even though oriented to the "rock opera" format, is completely and totally removed from anything they've ever done.
Of course it's clear it's DT and I'm not saying that I don't think it's their album at all. I was saying that the only way I can listen to it is to forget it's by a band I have loved for nearly 30 years as I don't want to accept that my heros can produce such a piece of garbage (to my ears) and if I try to listen to it and don't distance myself from the reality that it IS a DT album, then I just can't stomach more than a few mins of it before I get bored silly.
-
To really "get" this album, I think you have to (1)
...........Totally forget it's by Dream Theater and treat it as a "project involving some very talented musicians from all different genre's of rock".
It's the only way I can even begin to listen to it without destroying my memories and love for what DT have done in their brilliant career.
Really? I understand not liking the album, but it's so clear listening to it that it's still Petrucci and Rudess behind the music. It's a very different kind of Dream Theater, but it's still obviously Dream Theater, it's not that the music, even though oriented to the "rock opera" format, is completely and totally removed from anything they've ever done.
Of course it's clear it's DT and I'm not saying that I don't think it's their album at all. I was saying that the only way I can listen to it is to forget it's by a band I have loved for nearly 30 years as I don't want to accept that my heros can produce such a piece of garbage (to my ears) and if I try to listen to it and don't distance myself from the reality that it IS a DT album, then I just can't stomach more than a few mins of it before I get bored silly.
Thats odd. So if you heard a song in a certain style, didn't know who made it and found it great, then find out your favorite band did it which isn't their style you'll dismiss it as its not their style?
I'm glad I don't care about stuff like that. Or view bands as my heroes. Theyre just people making music that I happen to enjoy.
-
I tried to get into it when it came out, and it was the first album of DT where that just wasn't happening for me. 'The Astonishing' as a title means for me that it actually WAS possible to actively dislike a DT album. I have no problem with stories, musicals and the like but this just wasn't all that good, was it? Unfortunately the TA show in Carre Amsterdam was as boring as the album, with DT standing still whilst performing against a backdrop of amateuristic cardboard fairytale characters.
Please note that the above is my opinion, not facts even though I may present them as such. The I&W&Beyond show earlier this year was great, and I'm looking forward to the next album. If you feel like me, the next album just can't be a disappointment as I feel this is the absolute lowpoint of their career.
-
Well for me it can almost not get better as I find The Astonishing to be the highpoint....
-
Well for me it can almost not get better as I find The Astonishing to be the highpoint....
Completely agree. Lowest point, for me, would be FII era or BC&SL era. Maybe FII.
-
To really "get" this album, I think you have to (1)
...........Totally forget it's by Dream Theater and treat it as a "project involving some very talented musicians from all different genre's of rock".
It's the only way I can even begin to listen to it without destroying my memories and love for what DT have done in their brilliant career.
Really? I understand not liking the album, but it's so clear listening to it that it's still Petrucci and Rudess behind the music. It's a very different kind of Dream Theater, but it's still obviously Dream Theater, it's not that the music, even though oriented to the "rock opera" format, is completely and totally removed from anything they've ever done.
Of course it's clear it's DT and I'm not saying that I don't think it's their album at all. I was saying that the only way I can listen to it is to forget it's by a band I have loved for nearly 30 years as I don't want to accept that my heros can produce such a piece of garbage (to my ears) and if I try to listen to it and don't distance myself from the reality that it IS a DT album, then I just can't stomach more than a few mins of it before I get bored silly.
I will second the flaws in your reasoning that others have posted, but also need to point out that referring to an album as a "piece of garbage" doesn't even remotely fall within the bounds of keeping criticism "constructive" as required by Rule 12. https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=7.0 If you cannot abide by the forum rules, you will not be permitted to post here.
-
To really "get" this album, I think you have to (1) put it in context of what it is, and (2) immerse yourself in it for at least one listen to try to figure out how the music and story relate. To do that, I think it is helpful to first take a moment and read the song-by-song plot summaries on DT.net, and then listen to the album once through in its entirety where you can sit and just pay attention to the music and story together, with the plot summaries in mind. And I think you have to keep in mind that, structure-wise, it is meant to follow the broadway musical two-act structure. That is why certain songs are the way they are, including the final song, which isn't the story's climax and isn't the big, epic ending one might expect for a concept album.
That is what I think it takes to understand and appreciate the album. Whether or not you want to make such an investment in time is another story, and I fully get it you aren't inclined to do so. That is entirely your prerogative. But I will say that if I hadn't taken the time to do that, I don't think I would have nearly the appreciation that I have for the album, and I might not like it much either.
Admittedly, that is a problem with me. I usually don't care about lyrics so I'm really missing out on a big part of The Astonishing. The only time I even start to care even a little bit about lyrics is when I absolutely love the music. I have a trip coming up in November. I may play the whole album and read the lyrics during the flight.
...........Totally forget it's by Dream Theater and treat it as a "project involving some very talented musicians from all different genre's of rock".
It's the only way I can even begin to listen to it without destroying my memories and love for what DT have done in their brilliant career.
If I pretended this wasn't a DT album then I probably wouldn't even bother giving it more chances.
-
Ya, listening to The Astonishing without following the story is like watching star wars with the sound off
-
Please note that the above is my opinion, not facts even though I may present them as such. The I&W&Beyond show earlier this year was great, and I'm looking forward to the next album. If you feel like me, the next album just can't be a disappointment as I feel this is the absolute lowpoint of their career.
I think disliking it is ok, we have different tastes after all. But to call a more than 2-hour musical that has well thought-out musical themes that make a coherent story, music that fits the story being told, with unconventional arrangement choices as a low point from a songwriting standpoint seems too...extreme? I don't know. Can't we at least respect that a lot of creativity poured into this work, it just happened not to suit your taste? Because for artists that make a living out of creative work, I would imagine that the low point would be when they stop being creative and produce work that is very much been-there-done-that or is very much derivative of what others have done.
-
Please note that the above is my opinion, not facts even though I may present them as such. The I&W&Beyond show earlier this year was great, and I'm looking forward to the next album. If you feel like me, the next album just can't be a disappointment as I feel this is the absolute lowpoint of their career.
I think disliking it is ok, we have different tastes after all. But to call a more than 2-hour musical that has well thought-out musical themes that make a coherent story, music that fits the story being told, with unconventional arrangement choices as a low point from a songwriting standpoint seems too...extreme? I don't know. Can't we at least respect that a lot of creativity poured into this work, it just happened not to suit your taste? Because for artists that make a living out of creative work, I would imagine that the low point would be when they stop being creative and produce work that is very much been-there-done-that or is very much derivative of what others have done.
I agree here, I may not entirely like the Astonishing at all but I will not consider it a disappointment or a low point of their career.
In fact I am really thankful they tried this and I am kinda impressed that they are not afraid to try new ideas to delve in the world of Musicals and Opera its not a very easy thing to do at all.
I think over all it makes sense to have lots of songs in that album since a Musical has lots of them. And it is short because some is used as a filler for some scenes where a character breaks into a song mid conversation and I think thats where all the short songs falls into place.
imagine a Musical like Les Misrables where one scene the lead actor breaks into a song that lasts 12minutes!
-
Not my favorite by the band but I do give them a lot of credit for going into the area of concept/score type of album. Personally, I like a few tracks with "The Path That Divides" as my favorite. I will give the entire thing a listen if I have a long drive but it has never really clicked with me as a whole. Oh well. I'm not going to cry about it.
It's a strong release for James LaBrie. He shines on the album.
-
I still come back to it to try to listen and enjoy it.
I've listened to the whole thing twice, and a few times I've skipped around.
It's another example of solid musicianship with songs that I find completely uninteresting. Maybe uninteresting is the wrong word. It's "interesting" just not enjoyable. At least not enjoyable to me. It may be my least favorite album from the Dream Theater catalog.
-
Even though Disc 2 meanders a bit, I still think the album overall is pretty damn good. I think had it been condensed down to about 100 minutes, instead of 130, it would have been a perfect record from a musical standpoint (not factoring in the story, which seems rather hokey).
The overall length can make it hard to get through, but I still say this record has some of the best music they have ever done.
-
Still love the whole album!
It will be cool when the title of this thread changes to "The Astonishing, Two Years On" :coolio
-
I still listen to the album regularly and love it. My only complaint is that Myung is too low on the mix. DT12 had perfect bass level/tone, imo.
-
Probably said this before, but the music is great. It's just the lyrics that kill me.
-
Even though Disc 2 meanders a bit, I still think the album overall is pretty damn good. I think had it been condensed down to about 100 minutes, instead of 130, it would have been a perfect record from a musical standpoint (not factoring in the story, which seems rather hokey).
The overall length can make it hard to get through, but I still say this record has some of the best music they have ever done.
As usual, Kev knows what’s up.
-
Even though Disc 2 meanders a bit, I still think the album overall is pretty damn good. I think had it been condensed down to about 100 minutes, instead of 130, it would have been a perfect record from a musical standpoint (not factoring in the story, which seems rather hokey).
The overall length can make it hard to get through, but I still say this record has some of the best music they have ever done.
As usual, Kev knows what’s up.
Posts like this make me wish we had the feature where we could "like" posts. :biggrin:
Along those lines, this is the only message board I look at regularly that still doesn't have the "like" button feature.
-
Even though Disc 2 meanders a bit, I still think the album overall is pretty damn good. I think had it been condensed down to about 100 minutes, instead of 130, it would have been a perfect record from a musical standpoint (not factoring in the story, which seems rather hokey).
The overall length can make it hard to get through, but I still say this record has some of the best music they have ever done.
As usual, Kev knows what’s up.
Posts like this make me wish we had the feature where we could "like" posts. :biggrin:
Along those lines, this is the only message board I look at regularly that still doesn't have the "like" button feature.
Herrick likes this ;D
-
Some people make fun of the Disney vibe some of the ballads have but I think its really beautiful, I really love "Begin Again" I say its one of the best ballads they have written.
That is Dream Theater for me they will write Ballads like "Begin again" to the point you would not think they are the same band behind "The Mirror" or As I Am!
-
Some people make fun of the Disney vibe some of the ballads have but I think its really beautiful, I really love "Begin Again" I say its one of the best ballads they have written.
That is Dream Theater for me they will write Ballads like "Begin again" to the point you would not think they are the same band behind "The Mirror" or As I Am!
Thats one if my faves from the album as well. The ending always gets me.
I'm still loving this album. The concept relates to me a lot as well, being a person whom just loves music. After reading the prologue, I'm more interested in the story.
-
I have actually never finished listening to this album. The first time that I listened to Disc 1 all the way through I kept thinking - 'Is it finally over? Will it move to Disc 2 finally?'. I just remember being so bored by the whole thing. In my mind, the first disc alone felt like a double album. To this day, I have not heard a note of Disc 2. I've had no desire to even go back to it. That doesn't mean I never will, but I have over 25,000 songs in my library to keep me busy.
For me, post MP DT has been like the analogy that many people use for the TOS Star Trek movies. The even numbered ones are really good. The odds, not so much. So yes, that means I only like one album since the event. Here's to hoping the next one is in the vein of the self-titled.
ive listened to the whole thing a few times, and I gotta be honest, the "is it finally over" feeling never goes away.
we'll eventually do a podcast on it and I wanna know what I'm talking about so I'm going to listen to it a lot, but I'm not looking forward to it, every time I go back, I find I dislike it just as much.
Maybe, maybe I like 10 tunes, MAYBE.
-
Totally the opposite experience for me. It's always "wow it's over already?" It doesn't at all seem like 2+ hours have gone by.
-
I really wish that I ever could share the same opinion... really, I tried many times, in different ways, with videos, with lyrics, without anything... Still there are only few songs that I like from The Astonishing. Hard to say but TA is the worst DT album for me. I respect the idea, the consistency of it, but I think that it just isn't for me...
-
Totally the opposite experience for me. It's always "wow it's over already?" It doesn't at all seem like 2+ hours have gone by.
Totally agree with this.... beautiful album
-
I have actually never finished listening to this album. The first time that I listened to Disc 1 all the way through I kept thinking - 'Is it finally over? Will it move to Disc 2 finally?'. I just remember being so bored by the whole thing. In my mind, the first disc alone felt like a double album. To this day, I have not heard a note of Disc 2. I've had no desire to even go back to it. That doesn't mean I never will, but I have over 25,000 songs in my library to keep me busy.
For me, post MP DT has been like the analogy that many people use for the TOS Star Trek movies. The even numbered ones are really good. The odds, not so much. So yes, that means I only like one album since the event. Here's to hoping the next one is in the vein of the self-titled.
ive listened to the whole thing a few times, and I gotta be honest, the "is it finally over" feeling never goes away.
we'll eventually do a podcast on it and I wanna know what I'm talking about so I'm going to listen to it a lot, but I'm not looking forward to it, every time I go back, I find I dislike it just as much.
Maybe, maybe I like 10 tunes, MAYBE.
Interesting. I probably like about 5 songs...tops. None of which are in the 1st 12 on the album. So, you're doing better than me...maybe. :lol
-
After listening to the entire thing many times I ended up making a bunch of edits so I could enjoy the "good stuff" during my commutes.
It's difficult now to find the time to dedicate to just listening which is why I'm sad they didn't release a live concert with all of the visuals but I'm hopeful that they'll revisit it down the road and maybe do a production with different vocalists for each character as well with costumes and sets and stuffs... not holding my breath, though.
-
After listening to the entire thing many times I ended up making a bunch of edits so I could enjoy the "good stuff" during my commutes.
It's difficult now to find the time to dedicate to just listening which is why I'm sad they didn't release a live concert with all of the visuals but I'm hopeful that they'll revisit it down the road and maybe do a production with different vocalists for each character as well with costumes and sets and stuffs... not holding my breath, though.
I'm hoping for a Ytsejam release cd. Or a cool Christmas gift.
-
My next try for The Astonishing is coming... Maybe I will listen to it again today, it will be my 5th or 6th try with this album...
-
After listening to the entire thing many times I ended up making a bunch of edits so I could enjoy the "good stuff" during my commutes.
It's difficult now to find the time to dedicate to just listening which is why I'm sad they didn't release a live concert with all of the visuals but I'm hopeful that they'll revisit it down the road and maybe do a production with different vocalists for each character as well with costumes and sets and stuffs... not holding my breath, though.
You know, I was thinking about what else they could have done with The Astonishing studio album. If they still wanted James to do all the vocals, maybe adding guests for the different vocalists with the guests singing ONLY background vocals, with James still singing every part. This would be just to give it a different tone for each character. I would think this would have been great and made it easier to follow which character is singing.
-
Put this album in this morning for the first time in a long time. Still works for me, although not the kind of thing I can listen to all the time.
-
Now there's a NOMAC guitar. Watch the video with JP.
https://youtu.be/EUcgaSUNiW0
-
TIL: Nomac is short for Noise Machine
-
There's a 20 limited edition run of JP's Nomac guitar at 10k each (checked the price at Sweetwater)....Dayuummm!
-
I figured the price point would be astonishingly high. :tup
-
After listening to the entire thing many times I ended up making a bunch of edits so I could enjoy the "good stuff" during my commutes.
It's difficult now to find the time to dedicate to just listening which is why I'm sad they didn't release a live concert with all of the visuals but I'm hopeful that they'll revisit it down the road and maybe do a production with different vocalists for each character as well with costumes and sets and stuffs... not holding my breath, though.
You know, I was thinking about what else they could have done with The Astonishing studio album. If they still wanted James to do all the vocals, maybe adding guests for the different vocalists with the guests singing ONLY background vocals, with James still singing every part. This would be just to give it a different tone for each character. I would think this would have been great and made it easier to follow which character is singing.
This is literally what I my band and I have been toying with for the last couple of months while writing/recording our concept album. I thought it would make for a super cool way to convey which character is singing which parts. Having a female voice doing harmonies for female sung parts, or even just background oohs and ahs during those sections is really captivating. It focuses the listeners attention and helps them better understand what's happening.
-
Now there's a NOMAC guitar. Watch the video with JP.
https://youtu.be/EUcgaSUNiW0
"(...) It actually lights up when you plug a cable into it, just like a real NOMAC".
:D
Seriously speaking, the guitar looks gorgeous!
-
I love the design of that guitar. John looks super happy holding it, I can only imagine what a thrill it is for him.
-
I love the design of that guitar. John looks super happy holding it, I can only imagine what a thrill it is for him.
He does. But then again, he pretty much always looks super happy when he is doing/talking about music-related stuff. :lol I know that when most musicians are asked what they would have done in life if they hadn't been musicians, a lot will say something like, "I can't see myself doing anything else." But with John, it's REALLY hard to picture him doing anything else. I think he has a lot of qualities that would make him successful in other endeavors. But he just gets so much joy out of music.
-
I love the design of that guitar. John looks super happy holding it, I can only imagine what a thrill it is for him.
He does. But then again, he pretty much always looks super happy when he is doing/talking about music-related stuff. :lol I know that when most musicians are asked what they would have done in life if they hadn't been musicians, a lot will say something like, "I can't see myself doing anything else." But with John, it's REALLY hard to picture him doing anything else. I think he has a lot of qualities that would make him successful in other endeavors. But he just gets so much joy out of music.
Like making a good barbecue :lol
-
The guitar looks really good. Too bad they couldn't have made it earlier for the TA tour. I'm sure it took a long time to design.
Back to discussing The Astonishing. This is the one album by DT that has the most mixed reviews. Maybe it's their most controversial release.
If their next release is The Astonishing 2 then people will go off the deep end. I don't think the band will do that. Nor will there need to be a Metropolis 3.
-
The guitar looks pretty cool!
As with most things regarding the Astonishing, it does feel like it's too late.
It's kinda like DT had this great idea to make a musical, have big theatrical stage show, and all this auxiliary tie-in stuff like a book, game, and art surrounding it. And then they finished the album, and realized all that stuff is 1.) expensive and 2.) takes time :lol
-
The guitar looks pretty cool!
As with most things regarding the Astonishing, it does feel like it's too late.
It's kinda like DT had this great idea to make a musical, have big theatrical stage show, and all this auxiliary tie-in stuff like a book, game, and art surrounding it. And then they finished the album, and realized all that stuff is 1.) expensive and 2.) takes time :lol
I don't disagree with your point totally, but it's worth noting that this guitar has been around for a while.
-
I don't disagree with your point totally, but it's worth noting that this guitar has been around for a while.
Yes and no. I had the same reaction, initially. But I think the prototype that JP had on the second leg of the TA tour was a regular Majesty with a NOMAC paint job. This limited edition model has a lot more features than that.
-
I don't disagree with your point totally, but it's worth noting that this guitar has been around for a while.
Yes and no. I had the same reaction, initially. But I think the prototype that JP had on the second leg of the TA tour was a regular Majesty with a NOMAC paint job. This limited edition model has a lot more features than that.
Hmm, you might be right but I think I clearly remember a video of JP at NAMM earlier this year showing off this NOMAC guitar that had all these little details.
-
I don't disagree with your point totally, but it's worth noting that this guitar has been around for a while.
Yes and no. I had the same reaction, initially. But I think the prototype that JP had on the second leg of the TA tour was a regular Majesty with a NOMAC paint job. This limited edition model has a lot more features than that.
Hmm, you might be right but I think I clearly remember a video of JP at NAMM earlier this year showing off this NOMAC guitar that had all these little details.
Yes, JP's is the real deal. There's also a very recent intervew with him (https://youtu.be/rasfwYWPGms?t=2m34s) where he says he only has one NOMAC guitar he has to carry around, and even jokes about it getting it's own flight seat :lol
-
I have listened to the whole thing for the first time since the spring season. I am less interested about it. Bring me something rockin' as soon as possible please!
-
I don't get the complaint about the length - just break it up! You don't have to listen to it all at once. I think its the best thing they have ever done, but I don't think I've listened all the way through more than once. I simply don't have time. Just imagine you have two DT albums!
And...its a crying shame we are not getting a DVD of the concert.
-
Heavens Cove always makes me think of this Final Fantasy song for some reason - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHw2V0C-D-o
-
I don't get the complaint about the length - just break it up! You don't have to listen to it all at once. I think its the best thing they have ever done, but I don't think I've listened all the way through more than once. I simply don't have time. Just imagine you have two DT albums!
I think the same, the whole album is too long to listen on its enterity on a regular basis. I almost always just listen to individual songs.
-
I have just listened to The Astonishing after a long period of not hearing it. I have always thought it's a great album and I still have that opinion! It's just brilliantly composed; JP & JR just know how to structure a concept album, by not closing circles in every song, but by letting songs end differently than they began.
With a lot going on with MM these times I also have to say he's done an amazing job. Sure, his sound is far from optimal, but I think that especially in the ballads he did very cool stuff. The double hi-hat pattern on Losing Faythe, as well as the use of the rim of the snare, or the ending of Begin Again (one of the very best passages of the entire album for me).
Sure, some of the lyrics are... well, I get that some of the lyrics might bother some people. Same with some of the sound effects (Faythes parents crying). I always thought they could have ended the whole story with a huge fight and a 12 minute instrumental battle - an instrumental to end all instrumentals (except for The Dance Of Eternity which cannot be ended). But the triumphing end fits the song well and Our New World is a pretty cool rock tune as well. I love the song Astonishing too, it brings back so many themes from the album and for me showcases how great all the motives of the album are composed. Of course, the last word belongs to the initiator behind the whole thing, JP.
I saw The Astonishing live twice and those two concerts were truly amazing. I think JP and the guys have produced an amazing album, and I love that they didn't give a fuck about what everyone would say, they just did it. They put so much effort into it, that (I am so sorry I have to start with that topic again) the 10 days writing and recording session for Psychotic Symphony looks extremely bland next to this huge piece of music.
-
Well said Fritzinger..... totally agree with all of this
-
I have listened to the whole thing for the first time since the spring season. I am less interested about it. Bring me something rockin' as soon as possible please!
To be fair, there are rockin' parts in The Astonishing. In fact, my favorite song is "The Path That Divides" which is a rocker. "A Savior in the Square" and "Moment of Betrayal" are rocking songs. There are other places in songs where it rocks. It's just mixed in through the album.
One of the turn offs for me is that many songs begin with a soft piano intro and it takes a while to get into the actual song. If you skip from track to track, that's what you experience.
Still for me, SFAM is tough to top for a DT concept album.
-
I don't get the complaint about the length - just break it up! You don't have to listen to it all at once. I think its the best thing they have ever done, but I don't think I've listened all the way through more than once. I simply don't have time. Just imagine you have two DT albums!
And...its a crying shame we are not getting a DVD of the concert.
Yeah, that's the best way to actively listen to any piece of music this long. When I listen to it, i'll usually take a short break after Three Days, then another one at the end of Disc 1, and another one half-way through Disc 2 (usually around My Last Farewell). It works much better when it's spread out into three or four shorter acts than it does two really long acts or one continuous listen imo. That's how I split up listening to recordings of musicals and operas on my own, and it works well here.
And honestly, I'm a bit glad they didn't do a DVD of this past The Astonishing Tour. Personally, I would prefer a live recording of this to be a HUGE spectacle. Like, go all out with one large concert with a live orchestra and choir and the works (and maybe some on-stage acting/scenery/props or something). Make it a huge event where the focus is more on the story and the music than a regular concert. Something like The Theater Equation, but much bigger in scope. Maybe an off-Broadway run or something? I dunno.
-
So it's going on two years now and I finally caved and bought the thing on iTunes to be able to add two or three songs to my "seven string playlist". I'm trying to filter it down to something I can actually listed to. So far I've always turned off at the latest when it came to "Act of Faythe" - even if I made it past "The Answer". Once the whole middle section, everything that has orchestration and sound effects, and all Disney show tunes are gone, there may be an EP's worth of music left that is halfway decent.
I can only hope they never do anything like this again.
-
So it's going on two years now and I finally caved and bought the thing on iTunes to be able to add two or three songs to my "seven string playlist". I'm trying to filter it down to something I can actually listed to. So far I've always turned off at the latest when it came to "Act of Faythe" - even if I made it past "The Answer". Once the whole middle section, everything that has orchestration and sound effects, and all Disney show tunes are gone, there may be an EP's worth of music left that is halfway decent.
I can only hope they never do anything like this again.
I'm really sorry that you can't enjoy it as much as I do. It's hard to believe anyone can refer to anything on this album as "halfway decent" for two reasons. 1. Regardless of whether or not you enjoy the direction they took, as a fan of the band I would think you would be able to recognize the scope of what they accomplished and respect the shit out of it. And 2. This album is filled to the brim with beauty. It's filled with gorgeous melody after gorgeous melody, both vocally and instrumentally. In my opinion this album is a musical and compositional masterpiece. It's something that sets these guys apart from so many bands that are (for some reason) highly regarded. Bands like Metallica, Foo Fighters, Iron Maiden, etc would never be able to create something like this in their wildest dreams. So even if it's not to your taste, is it really too much to just be proud of DT and happy for them for what they accomplished?
-
I have just listened to The Astonishing after a long period of not hearing it. I have always thought it's a great album and I still have that opinion! It's just brilliantly composed; JP & JR just know how to structure a concept album, by not closing circles in every song, but by letting songs end differently than they began.
With a lot going on with MM these times I also have to say he's done an amazing job. Sure, his sound is far from optimal, but I think that especially in the ballads he did very cool stuff. The double hi-hat pattern on Losing Faythe, as well as the use of the rim of the snare, or the ending of Begin Again (one of the very best passages of the entire album for me).
Sure, some of the lyrics are... well, I get that some of the lyrics might bother some people. Same with some of the sound effects (Faythes parents crying). I always thought they could have ended the whole story with a huge fight and a 12 minute instrumental battle - an instrumental to end all instrumentals (except for The Dance Of Eternity which cannot be ended). But the triumphing end fits the song well and Our New World is a pretty cool rock tune as well. I love the song Astonishing too, it brings back so many themes from the album and for me showcases how great all the motives of the album are composed. Of course, the last word belongs to the initiator behind the whole thing, JP.
I saw The Astonishing live twice and those two concerts were truly amazing. I think JP and the guys have produced an amazing album, and I love that they didn't give a fuck about what everyone would say, they just did it. They put so much effort into it, that (I am so sorry I have to start with that topic again) the 10 days writing and recording session for Psychotic Symphony looks extremely bland next to this huge piece of music.
Spot on!
-
I have just listened to The Astonishing after a long period of not hearing it. I have always thought it's a great album and I still have that opinion! It's just brilliantly composed; JP & JR just know how to structure a concept album, by not closing circles in every song, but by letting songs end differently than they began.
With a lot going on with MM these times I also have to say he's done an amazing job. Sure, his sound is far from optimal, but I think that especially in the ballads he did very cool stuff. The double hi-hat pattern on Losing Faythe, as well as the use of the rim of the snare, or the ending of Begin Again (one of the very best passages of the entire album for me).
Sure, some of the lyrics are... well, I get that some of the lyrics might bother some people. Same with some of the sound effects (Faythes parents crying). I always thought they could have ended the whole story with a huge fight and a 12 minute instrumental battle - an instrumental to end all instrumentals (except for The Dance Of Eternity which cannot be ended). But the triumphing end fits the song well and Our New World is a pretty cool rock tune as well. I love the song Astonishing too, it brings back so many themes from the album and for me showcases how great all the motives of the album are composed. Of course, the last word belongs to the initiator behind the whole thing, JP.
I saw The Astonishing live twice and those two concerts were truly amazing. I think JP and the guys have produced an amazing album, and I love that they didn't give a fuck about what everyone would say, they just did it. They put so much effort into it, that (I am so sorry I have to start with that topic again) the 10 days writing and recording session for Psychotic Symphony looks extremely bland next to this huge piece of music.
Amen, brother.
-
I have just listened to The Astonishing after a long period of not hearing it. I have always thought it's a great album and I still have that opinion! It's just brilliantly composed; JP & JR just know how to structure a concept album, by not closing circles in every song, but by letting songs end differently than they began.
With a lot going on with MM these times I also have to say he's done an amazing job. Sure, his sound is far from optimal, but I think that especially in the ballads he did very cool stuff. The double hi-hat pattern on Losing Faythe, as well as the use of the rim of the snare, or the ending of Begin Again (one of the very best passages of the entire album for me).
Sure, some of the lyrics are... well, I get that some of the lyrics might bother some people. Same with some of the sound effects (Faythes parents crying). I always thought they could have ended the whole story with a huge fight and a 12 minute instrumental battle - an instrumental to end all instrumentals (except for The Dance Of Eternity which cannot be ended). But the triumphing end fits the song well and Our New World is a pretty cool rock tune as well. I love the song Astonishing too, it brings back so many themes from the album and for me showcases how great all the motives of the album are composed. Of course, the last word belongs to the initiator behind the whole thing, JP.
I saw The Astonishing live twice and those two concerts were truly amazing. I think JP and the guys have produced an amazing album, and I love that they didn't give a fuck about what everyone would say, they just did it. They put so much effort into it, that (I am so sorry I have to start with that topic again) the 10 days writing and recording session for Psychotic Symphony looks extremely bland next to this huge piece of music.
Totally agree with all of this, specially the bolded part, I love that ending, MM really shines in that section! I love to airdrum to that!
-
I have just listened to The Astonishing after a long period of not hearing it. I have always thought it's a great album and I still have that opinion! It's just brilliantly composed; JP & JR just know how to structure a concept album, by not closing circles in every song, but by letting songs end differently than they began.
With a lot going on with MM these times I also have to say he's done an amazing job. Sure, his sound is far from optimal, but I think that especially in the ballads he did very cool stuff. The double hi-hat pattern on Losing Faythe, as well as the use of the rim of the snare, or the ending of Begin Again (one of the very best passages of the entire album for me).
Sure, some of the lyrics are... well, I get that some of the lyrics might bother some people. Same with some of the sound effects (Faythes parents crying). I always thought they could have ended the whole story with a huge fight and a 12 minute instrumental battle - an instrumental to end all instrumentals (except for The Dance Of Eternity which cannot be ended). But the triumphing end fits the song well and Our New World is a pretty cool rock tune as well. I love the song Astonishing too, it brings back so many themes from the album and for me showcases how great all the motives of the album are composed. Of course, the last word belongs to the initiator behind the whole thing, JP.
I saw The Astonishing live twice and those two concerts were truly amazing. I think JP and the guys have produced an amazing album, and I love that they didn't give a fuck about what everyone would say, they just did it. They put so much effort into it, that (I am so sorry I have to start with that topic again) the 10 days writing and recording session for Psychotic Symphony looks extremely bland next to this huge piece of music.
Totally agree with all of this, specially the bolded part, I love that ending, MM really shines in that section! I love to airdrum to that!
I'll have to say I agree. That ending is so majestic and amazing. I wish that part were just a bit longer.
-
Thanks for the nice answers guys!
I also can never stop myself trying to copy that drum pattern from the end of Begin Again on my air drums :lol Would be cool if the passage were a little longer, yes. But I feel like this album has so many cool motives and ideas, that it can afford to "throw away" an idea as cool as this one so quickly.
-
So it's going on two years now and I finally caved and bought the thing on iTunes to be able to add two or three songs to my "seven string playlist". I'm trying to filter it down to something I can actually listed to. So far I've always turned off at the latest when it came to "Act of Faythe" - even if I made it past "The Answer". Once the whole middle section, everything that has orchestration and sound effects, and all Disney show tunes are gone, there may be an EP's worth of music left that is halfway decent.
I can only hope they never do anything like this again.
I'm really sorry that you can't enjoy it as much as I do. It's hard to believe anyone can refer to anything on this album as "halfway decent" for two reasons. 1. Regardless of whether or not you enjoy the direction they took, as a fan of the band I would think you would be able to recognize the scope of what they accomplished and respect the shit out of it. And 2. This album is filled to the brim with beauty. It's filled with gorgeous melody after gorgeous melody, both vocally and instrumentally. In my opinion this album is a musical and compositional masterpiece. It's something that sets these guys apart from so many bands that are (for some reason) highly regarded. Bands like Metallica, Foo Fighters, Iron Maiden, etc would never be able to create something like this in their wildest dreams. So even if it's not to your taste, is it really too much to just be proud of DT and happy for them for what they accomplished?
TA can be anything you want but certainly not a masterpiece. About the gorgeous melody, yes there are some very good ones. It's nothing new, DT have always came up with great melody songs. It's one of the main reason I got interested by this band. But I would appreciate less and less ballads and more heavy stuff.... filled with beautiful melodies and harmonies.
-
So it's going on two years now and I finally caved and bought the thing on iTunes to be able to add two or three songs to my "seven string playlist". I'm trying to filter it down to something I can actually listed to. So far I've always turned off at the latest when it came to "Act of Faythe" - even if I made it past "The Answer". Once the whole middle section, everything that has orchestration and sound effects, and all Disney show tunes are gone, there may be an EP's worth of music left that is halfway decent.
I can only hope they never do anything like this again.
I'm really sorry that you can't enjoy it as much as I do. It's hard to believe anyone can refer to anything on this album as "halfway decent" for two reasons. 1. Regardless of whether or not you enjoy the direction they took, as a fan of the band I would think you would be able to recognize the scope of what they accomplished and respect the shit out of it. And 2. This album is filled to the brim with beauty. It's filled with gorgeous melody after gorgeous melody, both vocally and instrumentally. In my opinion this album is a musical and compositional masterpiece. It's something that sets these guys apart from so many bands that are (for some reason) highly regarded. Bands like Metallica, Foo Fighters, Iron Maiden, etc would never be able to create something like this in their wildest dreams. So even if it's not to your taste, is it really too much to just be proud of DT and happy for them for what they accomplished?
TA can be anything you want but certainly not a masterpiece. About the gorgeous melody, yes there are some very good ones. It's nothing new, DT have always came up with great melody songs. It's one of the main reason I got interested by this band. But I would appreciate less and less ballads and more heavy stuff.... filled with beautiful melodies and harmonies.
It can definitely be a masterpiece.... totaly amazing compositiond, instrumentstions and vocals
To me it is a masterpiece and the best album they have ever done.... yes better than I&W and SFAM even...
-
TA can be anything you want but certainly not a masterpiece.
Huh? So it can't be anything you want... :lol
-
The Astonishing can be anything you want to be, just turn the album into anything you think that it could ever be.
-
, or the ending of Begin Again (one of the very best passages of the entire album for me).
Totally agree with all of this, specially the bolded part, I love that ending, MM really shines in that section! I love to airdrum to that!
I'll have to say I agree. That ending is so majestic and amazing. I wish that part were just a bit longer.
I agree as well. I love the ending to Begin Again. I also love the beginning of it. Unfortunately the song itself, I'm not crazy about and I had to cut it from my Astonishing Abridged.
TA can be anything you want but certainly not a masterpiece. About the gorgeous melody, yes there are some very good ones. It's nothing new, DT have always came up with great melody songs. It's one of the main reason I got interested by this band. But I would appreciate less and less ballads and more heavy stuff.... filled with beautiful melodies and harmonies.
You certainly don't have to call it a masterpiece, but it is chock full of amazingness. I, too, can appreciate the heavier side of DT, but music like this from them was long overdue.
As much as I love TA, it's criticisms are totally fair. It does drag quite a bit, especially the first disc as it sets up the action on the second disc, which is much more livelier. But I can live with that, because overall, for me, this album delivers.
-
The Astonishing can be anything you want to be, just turn the album into anything you think that it could ever be.
Be free with your tempo,
(Be free, be free)
Surrender your ego
(Be free, be free)....to yourself.......
-
I just love the ending to the story. Nefaryus begging Gabriel to use his gift to heal Faythe. Gabriel desperately wishes he could. Then the townspeople gather singing joyously, miraculously rejunivates his voice.
Can't wait for the book to go into further detail on this part. Of what they gave us so far, it explains how Gabriel became a saviour using his gift.
-
I just love the ending to the story. Nefaryus begging Gabriel to use his gift to heal Faythe. Gabriel desperately wishes he could. Then the townspeople gather singing joyously, miraculously rejunivates his voice.
Can't wait for the book to go into further detail on this part. Of what they gave us so far, it explains how Gabriel became a saviour using his gift.
I like it too. My only gripe is that I always thought it would have been more powerful if the townspeople's singing was what healed Faythe. I feel it would have been symbolic, almost saying that Gabriel wasn't really special afterall and that the 'gift of music' is inside all of us. Also the idea of everyone saving Faythe, regardless of the oppression that her family had laid upon them is very powerful to me.
-
I just love the ending to the story. Nefaryus begging Gabriel to use his gift to heal Faythe. Gabriel desperately wishes he could. Then the townspeople gather singing joyously, miraculously rejunivates his voice.
Can't wait for the book to go into further detail on this part. Of what they gave us so far, it explains how Gabriel became a saviour using his gift.
I like it too. My only gripe is that I always thought it would have been more powerful if the townspeople's singing was what healed Faythe. I feel it would have been symbolic, almost saying that Gabriel wasn't really special afterall and that the 'gift of music' is inside all of us. Also the idea of everyone saving Faythe, regardless of the oppression that her family had laid upon them is very powerful to me.
Thats what I thought actually happens. By the townspeople singing, along with Gabriel, its like a heavenly angelic choir. Which in turn is what gives Faythe renewed life, she hears angels.
-
Also, now that I think of it, it would make more sense from a pure plot perspective: if you introduce the obstacle of Gabriel being without voice, there should be something else to make up for it, rather than just him recovering it anyway.
Nevertheless, it's a powerful moment in the story and the album. The uplifting violin melody that starts Hymn is the beginning of the emotional climax of the album that continues through the triumphant Our New World and reaches its peak with one of the best emotional moments of DT's carrer, rivaling with the end of Octavarium and Six Degrees - the final section of Astonishing (People can you hear us onwards).
-
From now on, I'm gonna assume that's what is intended with HoaTV. The line 'Amazingly, the saviour found his voice' could be saying that the choir is his voice
-
I just love the ending to the story. Nefaryus begging Gabriel to use his gift to heal Faythe. Gabriel desperately wishes he could. Then the townspeople gather singing joyously, miraculously rejunivates his voice.
Can't wait for the book to go into further detail on this part. Of what they gave us so far, it explains how Gabriel became a saviour using his gift.
I like it too. My only gripe is that I always thought it would have been more powerful if the townspeople's singing was what healed Faythe. I feel it would have been symbolic, almost saying that Gabriel wasn't really special afterall and that the 'gift of music' is inside all of us. Also the idea of everyone saving Faythe, regardless of the oppression that her family had laid upon them is very powerful to me.
Well, I think that does kind of happen. The townsfolk singing restores Gabriel's voice, which lets him heal Faythe in return. It took a thousand people to just heal Gabriel, while Gabriel was able to bring someone back from the brink of death alone. I think you could read into it that everyone has the gift of music, it's just that Gabriel's "gift" is much more powerful (hence him being the savior and all). The album doesn't go into much detail about this, and the track description they gave only gives a little detail on this. Might be reading too much into this, but that's how I thought about it. I agree that it's the most powerful moment in the story. I get chills from the ending (specifically from that brief rest, followed by the chorus singing the last lines of the song).
Also, side note, does anyone know what happened to the track descriptions they published around the album release? I can't seem to find it on the band's website anymore. Luckily I still have them saved, but was just curious.
-
I just love the ending to the story. Nefaryus begging Gabriel to use his gift to heal Faythe. Gabriel desperately wishes he could. Then the townspeople gather singing joyously, miraculously rejunivates his voice.
Can't wait for the book to go into further detail on this part. Of what they gave us so far, it explains how Gabriel became a saviour using his gift.
I like it too. My only gripe is that I always thought it would have been more powerful if the townspeople's singing was what healed Faythe. I feel it would have been symbolic, almost saying that Gabriel wasn't really special afterall and that the 'gift of music' is inside all of us. Also the idea of everyone saving Faythe, regardless of the oppression that her family had laid upon them is very powerful to me.
Well, I think that does kind of happen. The townsfolk singing restores Gabriel's voice, which lets him heal Faythe in return. It took a thousand people to just heal Gabriel, while Gabriel was able to bring someone back from the brink of death alone. I think you could read into it that everyone has the gift of music, it's just that Gabriel's "gift" is much more powerful (hence him being the savior and all). The album doesn't go into much detail about this, and the track description they gave only gives a little detail on this. Might be reading too much into this, but that's how I thought about it. I agree that it's the most powerful moment in the story. I get chills from the ending (specifically from that brief rest, followed by the chorus singing the last lines of the song).
Also, side note, does anyone know what happened to the track descriptions they published around the album release? I can't seem to find it on the band's website anymore. Luckily I still have them saved, but was just curious.
All this is why I'm interested in the book. This concept is pretty awesome and the story, so far, I enjoy it.
Now that I reminisce, its cool that JP came up with this story, wanted to make an album and all the other guys were fine with it, then it grew and grew until he sought to release a book. Their was just no way to include all his ideas on the album, or else we'd have like 5 disks. Thats why I feel he wrote up the summary, and found an author.
-
Just finished listening to The Astonishing again, and nope...sorry haters, you're still wrong. It's still a stunning album. Still one of my favourites of DT's.
On Hymn of a Thousand Voices, I think of it as the townspeople gathering at Heaven's Cove. People bring instruments (percussion, a violin), and a few join in with handclaps. And everyone helps revive both Gabriel and Faythe. *end scene*
-
I should try this again. I despised it when it came out and never tried again. I guess I should.
-
I really burned myself out on this record when it came out. I listened to it a ton and saw it live twice in the span of a year. I haven't revisited it much if at all in 2017, but I'm starting to feel like that needs to change...
-
It's really good. I discover new things each time I listen :)
-
Wow, I can't remember any of the songs.
-
Wow, I can't remember any of the songs.
I really tried and failed with that album too.
Though I still remember this:
My new world was spinning me around
And that was all that could be
-
Wow, I can't remember any of the songs.
I'll help remind you :)
1. Descent Of The Nomacs
WEEOOOBRRRRPB
2. Dystopian Overture
This'll all make sense on the second listen but for now it just sounds like a bunch of random notes
3. The Gift Of Music
People just don't have the time for music!
4. The Answer
Let it go, let it goooo
5. A Better Life
This is the one with the funny joke 'The answers no..... surprise! yes you bet your life!' comedy gold :)
6. Lord Nafaryus
Be prepaaaaared!
7. A Savior In The Square
Pls don't skip I promise it gets heavy
8. When Your Time Has Come
Skip
9. Act Of Faythe
Oh my god skip
10. Three Days
I was joking with the last two they're actually pretty cool ballads. Anyway here's another disney villain song
11. The Hovering Sojourn
BREAEAAOAOOOP
12. Brother, Can You Hear Me?
This is the one with the marching beat
13. A Life Left Behind
Kind of sounds like that other song by that other band
14. Ravenskill
First two words are from Surrounded
15. Chosen
You raise me uuuup, so I can climb on mountains. You raise me uuuuup
16. A Tempting Offer
Nefarious offers gabriel weed
17. Digital Discord
BEEP BEEP BEEP
18. The X Aspect
19. A New Beginning
20. The Road To Revolution
21. 2285 Entr'acte
22. Moment Of Betrayal
23. Heaven's Cove
24. Begin Again
25. The Path That Divides
26. Machine Chatter
27. The Walking Shadow
28. My Last Farewell
29. Losing Faythe
30. Whispers On The Wind
31. Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
32. Our New World
33. Power Down
34. Astonishing
Okay I can't be bothered to do the rest but you should do your best to remember them, they rock :D
-
16. A Tempting Offer
Nefarious offers gabriel weed
:rollin
-
34. Astonishing
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HappyEnding (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HappyEnding)
#spoileralert
-
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BittersweetEnding
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeusExMachina
Are more appropriate
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AstonishingEnding
-
Wow, I can't remember any of the songs.
I'll help remind you :)
If you had finished it could have been the best post ever about The Astonishing :lol :lol :lol
-
7. A Savior In The Square
Pls don't skip I promise it gets heavy
8. When Your Time Has Come
Skip
This actually made me laugh. :lol
-
If you had finished it could have been the best post ever about The Astonishing :lol :lol :lol
I was trying to be serious but gave up :lol Eh I'll finish up with disc 2
21. 2285 Entr'acte
If you can't sing along then go back to disc 1
22. Moment Of Betrayal
You are acting very strange!
23. Heaven's Cove
It's beautiful, Listen to those arpeggios
24. Begin Again
Petrucci stole Neal Morse's lyric notebook
25. The Path That Divides
The callback to When Your Time Has Come. Hopefully you didn't skip that one :)
26. Machine Chatter
BZIP BDEEP VROOM BEEP
27. The Walking Shadow
The one where Faythe dies
28. My Last Farewell
Everyone is sad about Faythe dying
29. Losing Faythe
Yup... still sad
30. Whispers On The Wind
Gabriel is sad too!
31. Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
The whole town is sad!
32. Our New World
Wait nevermind. Lets rock
33. Power Down
REOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW
34. Astonishing
"You know Gabriel, this really was Astonishing, wasn't it? *looks at camera* *fade to black*
-
If you had finished it could have been the best post ever about The Astonishing :lol :lol :lol
27. The Walking Shadow
The one where Faythe dies
28. My Last Farewell
Everyone is sad about Faythe dying
29. Losing Faythe
Yup... still sad
30. Whispers On The Wind
Gabriel is sad too!
31. Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
The whole town is sad!
32. Our New World
Wait nevermind. Lets rock
Awesome! :rollin :rollin :rollin
-
Let's remember that if it all plays out in real time, poor Faythe lies down in agony for 10 minutes straight while everyone is despairing all around ;D
-
That's always been one of my biggest issues with the album. Everything else in the story takes 1 or 2 songs to happen, but once you get to disc 2, every tiny little detail needs its own song. Especially with how many repeated themes they throw in, it just gets tedious.
From a story perspective, here's how many of the Act 2 songs are relevant:
Moment of Betrayal - uh oh maybe betraying gabriel was a bad idea
The Path That Divides - arhys v daryus, one of them dies (spoilers lol)
The Walking Shadow - xander's also here but i killed faythe instead whoops
My Last Farewell or Losing Faythe - oh no
Hymn of a Thousand Voices - let's all bring back faythe to life (who the hell is arhys)
Our New World or Astonishing - duh end
That's 6 songs & 26-28 minutes of music. So that's 22-24 minutes where nothing of value is said. Good storytelling, gg.
That said, I do really enjoy The Astonishing on a song-by-song basis & I think it's their best album with MM, I just wish it wasn't so tedious in its storytelling. I'd probably play it in full a lot more often if that were the case.
-
I always thought that after all of those songs where they're sad about Faythe dying.. Instead of going into Hymn of A Thousand Voices, they go into Dissappear and have a very sad end to the album :biggrin:
-
Hymn of a Thousand Voices is more than just the whole town being sad. It's the whole town coming together in glorious song to revive both Gabriel and Faythe.
-
I mean yeah, My Last Farewell is also about Gabriel getting his revenge with his scream, Losing Faythe is also Mr Dark Nefarious finally seeing the light, Whispers on The Wind is also establishing the consequences of the scream...
But in a nutshell, yup they're sad
-
Over time I think the MP fanboys and other ppl will come to realize The Astonishing is a Masterpiece..you have to dedicate the time and give it multiple listens..there are great heavy sections they are just placed in parts of songs that may not start heavy ...it’s a shame we won’t see a BR with an orchestra on this one..saw it live in Tulsa in a smaller older Brady Theater and it was epic..the next night in Grand Prarie Texas wasn’t as magical but the venue was to big and the sound mix seemed off until later in the show...still glad I saw it back to back..tremendous stuff from DT IN MY OPINION :metal :metal
-
I hope they bring out a few songs like A New Beginning for future tours, and not just avoid most of the album because the lyrics don't work outside the context of story
-
Me too...Lots of the songs can work on their own. But I do wish Chosen would pop up.
-
I'm not a fan of The Astonishing obviously, so I'd prefer they'd leave it off :P :P
But The Walking Shadow and A New Beginning need to be in future sets :metal
-
But The Walking Shadow and A New Beginning need to be in future sets :metal
I agree.
-
Me too...Lots of the songs can work on their own. But I do wish Chosen would pop up.
I saw The Astonishing live twice. Chosen completely slayed the crowd both times. I'm totally down for adding it to future set lists.
-
Me too...Lots of the songs can work on their own. But I do wish Chosen would pop up.
I saw The Astonishing live twice. Chosen completely slayed the crowd both times. I'm totally down for adding it to future set lists.
Now, we only need JP to read this thread :lol
But The Walking Shadow and A New Beginning need to be in future sets :metal
I agree.
ANB works best as the last song of the first set, hope they include it that way on future tours. Also agree on The Walking Shadow. The TWS/MLF duo is one of my favorite parts of the album, they should include both of them! :metal
-
I hope they bring out a few songs like A New Beginning for future tours, and not just avoid most of the album because the lyrics don't work outside the context of story
Well, tbf, the lyrics to a lot of the songs on Scenes don't work outside the album and those songs have been in regular rotation for decades.
And I would like to see A New Beginning, Three Days, Lord Nafaryus, Ravenskill, Chosen, Moment of Betrayal, The Gift of Music, The Walking Shadow, My Last Farewell, Act of Faythe, Road to Revolution, Whispers On the Wind, Losing Faythe, The Astonishing, Dystopian Overture, 2285 Entr'acte, The Answer, Begin Again, A Better Life, A Savior in the Square, Our New World, When Your Time Has Come, Brother, Can You Hear Me?, The Path That Divides, A Tempting Offer, The X Aspect, Heaven's Cove, and Hymn of a Thousand Voices in future setlists.
-
Is that everything but the nomac tracks? I'm totally down with that. :)
-
Is that everything but the nomac tracks? I'm totally down with that. :)
There's no A Life Left Behind :lol
-
Is that everything but the nomac tracks? I'm totally down with that. :)
There's no A Life Left Behind :lol
Oops. I guess there's A Track Left Behind.
-
Chosen is a FANTASTIC song. One of their best ballads, IMO. For me personally, the only reason I would NOT want to see it in a set is just because I have been wanting TAMP to make a return, so I would prefer that. But otherwise, I'm down for Chosen.
A New Beginning is an interesting topic to me. I liked it okay in the beginning. But even though the guitar work at the end is awesome, I just refused to get on the bandwagon that seemingly arose primarily or exclusively because of the instrumental/solo section, even after seeing it live and being blown away. But I have to say, that section is so awesome that it deserves to make the song a fan favorite, even if the rest of the song wasn't so good (and it IS pretty good, so that isn't really an issue). So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm late to the party on this one, but I love it as well. It is a fitting climax to Act 1.
-
To me, the solo in A New Beginning at 2:35 sounds like it's had a few bars cut out of it. I wonder how different disc one would have been if they didn't adhere to the 80 minute limit.
-
I am also down for Chosen, sort of.an alternate to TSCO.
-
I am also down for Chosen, sort of.an alternate to TSCO.
This! TSCO has been played SO MUCH lately (ADTOE tour, 30th anniversary tour, last US leg for TA tour and IWAB tour) that replacing it with Chosen would be a great idea.
-
Just came to say A New Beginning is still as fresh and awesome as the first time I heard it. Puts such a big smile on my face from start to finish. Love the overall composition which somehow feels like "what would happen if Dream Theater wrote a Disney hit song".
Actually, does anyone else see the similarities to Dig a Little Deeper from Princess and the Frog? It doesn't sound similar but somehow the first time I heard A New Beginning that song came to mind and in the chorus still reminds me.
-
Chosen is a great ballad and I'd love to see it in the set, especially if they add a guitar solo. Moment of Betrayal is a great rocker and would work well. A Life Left Behind was one of the highlights of the Astonishing shows and deserves another airing. Our New World will probably survive for future performances too.
I would die happy if I never heard Gift of Music again...
-
Another vote for Chosen. I love it, and the guitar solo is epic. I think it could work well as a standalone song in a future set.
One other song I quite like is Begin Again. It's a strange one - the opening is quite slow and mournful and then goes into probably one of the most "Disney" sections on the album. The "I know that I am made for something more" part is very uplifting. Then it slows down ("I dream of peace.."), and then finishes in a very upbeat way with the double time drums.
I'm not saying that it could appear in a future setlist, all I'm saying is that it's an interesting little song with a lot happening.
On the other hand, I'm not really a big fan of Our New World. It's maybe a little too repetitive.
-
On the topic of Begin Again, I brought up the criticism the Act 2 was way too drawn out, but I think I've narrowed that issue down to four major culprits:
- Begin Again (probably the most useless song on the album. It doesn't add anything new to the story that wasn't already obvious, & musically it sounds like basically every other song from TA. Also without it, the album would flow much better with Heaven's Cove being a prelude into The Path That Divides.)
- Losing Faythe (I think most people could already gather that more than just Gabriel felt bad about Faythe dying, & having 3 songs about Faythe's death totally kills the pacing. It also indirectly spoils that Faythe could come back to like with the power of music. & musically, it's mostly just repeated themes so you wouldn't really lose anything by cutting it out.)
- Whispers On The Wind (Short interlude where barely anything happens. Also it doesn't make sense without Losing Faythe.)
- Power Down (yeah it's a nomac track, but it feels very out of place beside the triumphant Our New World & the title track)
^ Cut those four out & I think you have a much better-paced album all around. You could even split it into 3 acts with each act having 10 tracks.
-
I agree on everything but Losing Faythe is great, it's the pinnacle of desperation and the beginning of Nefaryus' turning around.
Actually out of these songs Losing Faythe is the only one that made my slightly abridged cut of The Astonishing, which lasts 1h45' or so. (And I cut most of the stock crying at the beginning of the song).
-
Yepp Losing Faythe should stay, otherwise, agree.
-
Admittedly, you could probably trade Losing Faythe with My Last Farewell on that list, I just decided on keeping MLF (unfortunate acronym :lol) because I personally find it a better song (& also because of fewer repeated themes).
-
It's nice to see I'm not the only one who loves this album!!!
Feedbacks on fb and YouTube are so negative that I thought it was just me and JP who enjoyed it!!!! :biggrin:
I mean, it's not perfect. I would change something here and there, cut something else (Nafaryus crying :facepalm:), but it's normal...
It's probably my favorite of the Mangini Era. It's a shame we won't have a BR/DVD of the tour!
And the fact that they decided to cut both of the songs of TA from the setlist makes me think they had my same sensations...
It's not good at all not being appreciated when you spend a lot of energies in a huge work like this.
-
I don't think so, but I hope they won't go to the other opposite with the next album. Imagine the irony of the people who loved The Astonishing being put off by the safest, most by-the-number possible album they could come up with... but I think they're more creative than that :hat
-
It's nice to see I'm not the only one who loves this album!!!
Feedbacks on fb and YouTube are so negative that I thought it was just me and JP who enjoyed it!!!! :biggrin:
tbf, I think that a lot of the hate towards this album has been from a smaller very vocal group of more traditional-oriented metalheads. The user scores on Metacritic and Allmusic I saw were mostly positive, but the one on rateyourmusic (which leans heavily towards more extreme metal and "anything that sounds remotely similar to modern Radiohead") is abysmal. Prog-Archives is all over the place, but the most common score is 5* and it has a fairly decent score overall. Critics also seem to love it, and it's gotten decent reactions when I've played it for people (which is more anecdotal but worth mentioning).
Plus the word "astonishing" has basically become a meme in prog and metal communities. I've seen it on dozens of metal/prog bands/songs comment sections. So it's definitely already made an impact.
-
Images and Words will always hold a high place in my heart, but I think this album has officially become my favorite DT album.
-
It’s not perfect, but it’s a top 3 DT album to me. I still love it, almost two years after its release.
-
I still love TA. I don't listen to it as often as to other DT albums because it just doesn't work for me on the ipod in the bus or train, it needs a different atmosphere. That keeps it special. I'm thankful that I saw it live, that show with the visuals was probably the most special live show of the band's whole career.
-
Great to see TA getting some love between all the criticism.
I just don't understand why DT went through two huge tours and don't release a live album of either of them while MP is releasing a live album for every fucking tour of every small project he's involved in.
-
Great to see TA getting some love between all the criticism.
I just don't understand why DT went through two huge tours and don't release a live album of either of them while MP is releasing a live album for every fucking tour of every small project he's involved in.
This has been a very special tour and there's been a lot of work behind it. Not only the musical part the guys have done, but also the scenography and the digital creation of this world and the characters.
They recorded a DVD more or less for every single tour and they're not doing it for something like this?!
I'd like to know the reason why. And I repeat, I'm sol happy that many people in here liked TA, but for me they abandoned this project for the criticisms.
I had the opportunity to see it live. I think that, more than ever, every fan should have it.
-
Sales is the reason why, DVDs don't sell that much anymore. Also the mixed reaction to the album could have dissuaded them from pursuing such a project.
Even though I kinda see the irony in this...
"Standard tour with the new drummer... let's film it!"
"Standard tour where we get an orchestra for the last song of the show and the encore only... let's film it!"
"Very theatrical tour in which we have an elaborate screen show that goes along to the rock opera we perform in its entirety.... nah, whatever, we're fine"
-
tbf, I think that a lot of the hate towards this album has been from a smaller very vocal group of more traditional-oriented metalheads. The user scores on Metacritic and Allmusic I saw were mostly positive, but the one on rateyourmusic (which leans heavily towards more extreme metal and "anything that sounds remotely similar to modern Radiohead") is abysmal.
To be fair, I'm more of a fan of the melodic, prog side of DT over the metal side, so that has nothing to do with why I dislike the album.
-
Sales is the reason why, DVDs don't sell that much anymore. Also the mixed reaction to the album could have dissuaded them from pursuing such a project.
Even though I kinda see the irony in this...
"Standard tour with the new drummer... let's film it!"
"Standard tour where we get an orchestra for the last song of the show and the encore only... let's film it!"
"Very theatrical tour in which we have an elaborate screen show that goes along to the rock opera we perform in its entirety.... nah, whatever, we're fine"
Yea pretty much this. I hardly listen to the album anymore, but I still really like it and enjoy when a song comes on randomly. I still rate my 2nd TA show as my favorite DT show I've seen. Front row, amazing visuals, and a superb performance. I think if I was anywhere else besdies the front row I wouldn't of enjoyed it as much as the venue was practically empty. Maybe that added to my feeling of like DT was playing to me and only me in my living room. I loved it.
-
My venue was packed, but I went for the cheap seat, on the "roof" of the theatre, and fate handed me the leftmost seat, I had the wall on my left. I basically had to bend a lot to the right to even see Jordan, and Myung was difficult to see also. Now I wish I could go back and spend a little more to enjoy better, and in a more immersed situation, the show.
The problem in these kind of situation is that the person that, 5-6 months before the show, makes a rational decision based on costs, is not the person that 6 months later sits in a shitty and distant seat and wishes to be closer to the stage ;D
-
So true, also that second show was on the 2nd NA leg. The first show at RCMH on the first leg sold much better and while it wasn't packed, RCMH is a large venue so I think the band did well with attendance there. Just by the time they came back for the second run, people didn't come out for it. But that helped me, I bought my first row seat a few hours before the show. I was either going to get a super cheap ticket in the back or pay face value for front row for that show. Glad things worked out the way they did for me, plus a JP hand shake before leaving the stage. :metal
-
I think its such a shame that this album wasn't better received. Like it or lump it, there is no denying the sheer scale and originality of this project. Sure the plot has some issues, but I don't care, I'm in it for the music. In my view, they pulled it off spectacularly as only DT could. Unfortunately, the lack of commercial success will discourage them (and perhaps other bands) from really stepping out of their comfort zone again.
Also a huge shame we didn't get a DVD. In a weird way I almost feel like DT owes it to the fans who didn't get to see this live, although I know that's a bit silly. I also wonder if James' deteriorating live performances are another reason we didn't get it, and may not get any more in the future.
-
I'm still pissed they couldn't just record it from a tripod and dump the audio for us. I'd pay $9.99 for a digital copy of that.
-
I'm still pissed they couldn't just record it from a tripod and dump the audio for us. I'd pay $9.99 for a digital copy of that.
Something simple like this would be perfect for an official bootleg. I'd take the single camera angle of the whole stage as well, bootleg style. Just as long as it captures the visuals and the band.
-
The first theater shows they did for TA were fantastic. The atmosphere was great amongst the audiences, the visuals were great and the sound was near perfect. They should have recorded those.
-
And the biggest salt in the wound from it all is that the no cellphone policy means that there are next to no videos on Youtube, and the ones that exist are really, really terrible.
-
Never give up hope! SDoIT took what, 4 years to end up on an official live release? A Change Of Seasons also took a long time to even end up as a song. Don't lose faith :)
I gave up hope
Was dead inside
Stayed lost within a world without an official live release of The Astonishing
Then I found, my faith in DT
And now I can
Listen to it
I once believed
An official live release of The Astonishing's fate was sealed
But now at last the release date has been revealed
In an instant, John Petrucci's mind could change
And now and then
I can listen to it
-
And the biggest salt in the wound from it all is that the no cellphone policy means that there are next to no videos on Youtube, and the ones that exist are really, really terrible.
That really was the most frustrating part of the tour. I have no problems with the no cellphone policy as long as there was that assurance that there was going to be a DVD release, but since now that there will be no DVD in the future as far as we know right now, this tour would be forgotten and hard to look back on which is a bloody shame. Like the album or not, I love it that Dream Theater wanted to be this ambitious with the way they went about with The Astonishing and their stage setup for the tour and it would have been nice to document that in a live DVD release.
-
Did they record any of the shows? If so, rest assured that it will be released at some point. Same as Maiden's A Matter of life and death. Wait until it gets later in their career and they'll rely more on the release of oddities to bump sales. And this is not criticism to DT or Maiden, it's just how the business is carried out.
-
Im sure there are soundboard recordings, but I do believe there is no video recorded of this show, unlike IM who we know have the Donnington show video taped from their tour.
-
I'm pretty sure DT does soundboard recordings of every show, so yeah I'm sure they have audio they could do something with in the future if they so desire.
-
I don't think I would be too interested in a soundboard recording of it. If I wanted audio, I just listen to the studio album, unless they did certain notable nuances that differs from the studio version. I just heard they had good visuals and I wanted to see that.
-
The first theater shows they did for TA were fantastic. The atmosphere was great amongst the audiences, the visuals were great and the sound was near perfect. They should have recorded those.
Until everyone booed from the lack of an encore! ::)
I was pretty disappointed with these shows because they were just so damn similar to the CD. Could've spent the £240 we collectively spent on tickets on a HiFi system and blasted it through that with mood lights for a similar experience. The lack of talking spots and the prerecorded-ness of the thing was enough to make me not pay the £80 they asked for the I&W show. A real shame as my brother said it's the best he's ever seen them :'(
-
The first theater shows they did for TA were fantastic. The atmosphere was great amongst the audiences, the visuals were great and the sound was near perfect. They should have recorded those.
Until everyone booed from the lack of an encore! ::)
Wow, sounds like the crowd at your show was pretty rude and ungrateful. Glad that doesn't represent the majority of the tour.
-
The first theater shows they did for TA were fantastic. The atmosphere was great amongst the audiences, the visuals were great and the sound was near perfect. They should have recorded those.
Until everyone booed from the lack of an encore! ::)
I was pretty disappointed with these shows because they were just so damn similar to the CD. Could've spent the £240 we collectively spent on tickets on a HiFi system and blasted it through that with mood lights for a similar experience. The lack of talking spots and the prerecorded-ness of the thing was enough to make me not pay the £80 they asked for the I&W show. A real shame as my brother said it's the best he's ever seen them :'(
Sorry but what the fuck did you expect? It was exactly as advertised.
-
People never read the descriptions
-
The first theater shows they did for TA were fantastic. The atmosphere was great amongst the audiences, the visuals were great and the sound was near perfect. They should have recorded those.
Until everyone booed from the lack of an encore! ::)
I was pretty disappointed with these shows because they were just so damn similar to the CD. Could've spent the £240 we collectively spent on tickets on a HiFi system and blasted it through that with mood lights for a similar experience. The lack of talking spots and the prerecorded-ness of the thing was enough to make me not pay the £80 they asked for the I&W show. A real shame as my brother said it's the best he's ever seen them :'(
Sorry but what the fuck did you expect? It was exactly as advertised.
You're completely right! I just thought it would be for me and it wasn't. That's nothing against the band! :)
-
In indsight, they should have done a couple of older songs as encore. I was just fine with only the album, but I think not a single person would have said "Eh, two classic songs as encore ruined the mood and the atmosphere of the album".
-
In indsight, they should have done a couple of older songs as encore. I was just fine with only the album, but I think not a single person would have said "Eh, two classic songs as encore ruined the mood and the atmosphere of the album".
I don't know about "should." But they did realize that that is what the fans wanted, so they slightly modified the set on the second U.S. leg and cut a few TA songs to make room for the encore of 2-3 "classic" songs.
I saw both version of the tour, and I thought they were both great. The first time through, I was glad to have gotten the entire album. But the second time through, I didn't miss the songs that were cut, and felt that the encore was a lot of fun and ended the night on a high note that had a cool and different energy than just getting TA by itself. And keep in mind, the second leg was not supposed to be anywhere near that extensive. It wasn't supposed to just be a repeat. They were supposed to do a short stint of gigs in markets they hadn't yet visited the first time through, which is why they didn't initially alter the set. But it got booked wrong, which the band were not happy about, but they went out and tried to put their best foot forward and deliver anyway.
-
Didn't know the details about that! that was a bummer for them, let's hope next tour they'll do things exactly as they want.
-
Thought it was common knowledge by now, but since you weren't aware of that part, let me add one other detail as well: I passed on to John Petrucci some of the concerns/complaints that were being voiced here about doing the same tour in the same places. He listened. And despite that they were pretty much locked into doing TA because that is how it was booked, and the fact that they had all the expensive production tied up in the extended tour, he and the band wanted to do what they could to address those concerns. That is why they made the changes they did and included As I Am, Pull Me Under, and The Spirit Carries On as an encore. You guys were instrumental in having them do that. So props to the forum members for voicing those things so I could get that information to him. And props to the band for listening and acting on those concerns.
-
I think that was cool in a way, but... I was at some of the shows with the new encore, and a few fans were a little bummed at not having gotten the full TA. The shows where they did that were (most if not all), not shows in the same area as the first leg. The first half was, but the shows in the south were getting it for the first time. For me, it was cool seeing something else since I had already seen the full set a few times.
I like that JP is open to listening to stuff like that. It was also good when he finally put out a statement about the mess that was the I&W US tour with shows being cancelled or moved without people knowing what was going on. I just hope he doesn't let people convince him to do other things, like get an outside producer... ;)
-
I just hope the mixed reaction for TA doesn't prevent them from making another concept album in the next years.
-
It feels kinda weird that I ordered the book while sitting in front of my Christmas tree in late November of 2016. Fast forward, I'm sitting in front of my Christmas tree late November 2017, reading about updates regarding the book's progress. At least it looks like I won't be reading it in front of my Christmas tree in late November 2018, not unless I choose to.
-
Maybe you'll be watching the documentary in 2019: An Astonishing Mishap: How one band didn't have time for books anymore (and no-one seemed to care)
-
Maybe you'll be watching the documentary in 2019: An Astonishing Mishap: How one band didn't have time for books anymore (and no-one seemed to care)
:rollin
-
I just hope the mixed reaction for TA doesn't prevent them from making another concept album in the next years.
Completely agree with this. The biggest takeaway from TA for me was just how different it was.
Yes, you had the classic DT sound there, but there are so many bands that fit into the "progressive" category now that aren't progressive (I absolutely love Neal Morse, but he's had the same sound for 20 years. It fits into "prog" the genre, but certainly not "prog" the idea). You've then got Dream Theater who totally changed things up and took prog metal and made it into this huge musical with a full on orchestra.
Love it or hate it, The Astonishing is certainly progressive and an attempt at something different. We need more innovation in this genre!! I can count on one hand the number of other bands that are actively trying something different.
-
Exactly this! Dream Theater totally gets what it means to be progressive. TA showcases that DT has no musical boundaries and that they can play anything under the sun. One of my favorite albums of all time from any band!
-
Exactly this! Dream Theater totally gets what it means to be progressive. TA showcases that DT has no musical boundaries and that they can play anything under the sun. One of my favorite albums of all time from any band!
A huge +1
-
And I'm telling you now, a lot of those same people will probably complain if DT "play it safe" for their next album. That's what infuriates me about the whole thing. With The Astonishing, DT managed something that no other artist has been able to accomplish. Create a true Rock Opera, infuse its characters with life, provide us with scenarios we can imagine (even going so far as to indicate Day or Night for each scene). I really hope this doesn't leave DT with a sour taste about the album. I hope they are still immensely proud of it, because they absolutely deserve to be.
-
I have seen TA two times live, really loved it, and I am very dissapointed that they didn‘t make a blue ray of the show.
I hope they do a one of at a special location(maybe on broadway?),
I have to ask JP at the G3 in Offenbach about that :metal
-
And I'm telling you now, a lot of those same people will probably complain if DT "play it safe" for their next album. That's what infuriates me about the whole thing. With The Astonishing, DT managed something that no other artist has been able to accomplish. Create a true Rock Opera, infuse its characters with life, provide us with scenarios we can imagine (even going so far as to indicate Day or Night for each scene). I really hope this doesn't leave DT with a sour taste about the album. I hope they are still immensely proud of it, because they absolutely deserve to be.
To me, it's totally fair to criticize Dream Theater for "playing it safe". It's also fair to dislike The Astonishing. However, what seems in poor taste to me is criticizing Dream Theater for not taking chances and then being on the front lines of the anti-Astonishing stampede. I definitely noticed some of that when the album first came out. I think some people just like to complain. :lol
Alright, I'm done complaining. :loser:
-
And I'm telling you now, a lot of those same people will probably complain if DT "play it safe" for their next album. That's what infuriates me about the whole thing. With The Astonishing, DT managed something that no other artist has been able to accomplish. Create a true Rock Opera, infuse its characters with life, provide us with scenarios we can imagine (even going so far as to indicate Day or Night for each scene). I really hope this doesn't leave DT with a sour taste about the album. I hope they are still immensely proud of it, because they absolutely deserve to be.
However, what seems in poor taste to me is criticizing Dream Theater for not taking chances and then being on the front lines of the anti-Astonishing stampede. I definitely noticed some of that when the album first came out. I think some people just like to complain. :lol
Agreed. TA was different from the DT norm. And respect to that. It wasn't very progressive, to my ears, though. It was a mixture of two very well trodden styles, for the most part. 2112 meets DT meets Andrew Lloyd Webber, with equally familiar story and characters. Once that was apparent, there were no surprises.
So different, yes - a bit, but it bored me to tears.
I still really hope they can strip back the production, focus on the playing and step FORWARD in time rather than so obviously back next time.
-
I still really hope they can strip back the production, focus on the playing and step FORWARD in time rather than so obviously back next time.
The way I see it, the playing is always a focus anyway, and if you mean make it the main focus, I definitely disagree. Making the playing the main focus will result in major wankery. At this stage, Dream Theater has nothing left to prove when it comes to their playing abilities, so songwriting should always be the main focus, like it was on The Astonishing.
-
I still really hope they can strip back the production, focus on the playing and step FORWARD in time rather than so obviously back next time.
The way I see it, the playing is always a focus anyway, and if you mean make it the main focus, I definitely disagree. Making the playing the main focus will result in major wankery. At this stage, Dream Theater has nothing left to prove when it comes to their playing abilities, so songwriting should always be the main focus, like it was on The Astonishing.
This. Something that annoys me is that some people often confuse good songwriting with lots of wankery (SOA diehard fans, I’m looking at you). DT have focused more on songwriting rather than wankery and that’s always better imo.
-
I still really hope they can strip back the production, focus on the playing and step FORWARD in time rather than so obviously back next time.
The way I see it, the playing is always a focus anyway, and if you mean make it the main focus, I definitely disagree. Making the playing the main focus will result in major wankery. At this stage, Dream Theater has nothing left to prove when it comes to their playing abilities, so songwriting should always be the main focus, like it was on The Astonishing.
This. Something that annoys me is that some people often confuse good songwriting with lots of wankery (SOA diehard fans, I’m looking at you). DT have focused more on songwriting rather than wankery and that’s always better imo.
I actually agree with a lot of that. I put it really badly. Apologies. I really meant focus on what they create TOGETHER as a band, five great artists in a room together making music. I want to hear the chemistry, great playing, lyrics, great vocals, artistry. With great production. I want to hear the ambient studio noise, some chatter. I want to feel the magic and spark of combined creativity.
EDIT: I don't agree that the songwriting is good on TA, however. The concept and lyrical execution is hackneyed to the max. It's so familiar and so long, it doesn't come close to good songwriting for me.
-
Happy 2nd Anniversary to The Astonishing! Shame the OP isn't around anymore to change the title of this thread to "Two Years On". Oh well.
I'm planning on listening to both this and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence over the course of today. It's kinda funny that DT's two longest albums both came out on the same day, albeit 14 years apart.
-
Uhh-hu-hu, shouldn't this thread now be called "The Astonishing" TWO Years on?
I just had to re-iterate what RoeDent said.. :biggrin:
-
...and it's still great.
-
Agreed!
-
...and it's still great.
100% this. I listened to it again this afternoon and I can confirm this.
-
Still one of my favourite albums of all time and all artists
-
The thing that makes no sense about The Astonishing: Why does Nafaryus have an accent for 2 lines but never again?
-
Eh, I don't know guys ;D
-
Wait, I thought Kotow was banned. How did he change the thread title?
-
Pragmaticcircus changed the thread title in his post so it pops up like that for the new post....
....I think
-
Pragmaticcircus changed the thread title in his post so it pops up like that for the new post....
....I think
I know that, I meant the "two years on" you see in our posts :lol
-
Pragmaticcircus changed the thread title in his post so it pops up like that for the new post....
....I think
I know that, I meant the "two years on" you see in our posts :lol
« Last Edit: 31-01-2018, 20:39:25 by bosk1 »
-
Pragmaticcircus changed the thread title in his post so it pops up like that for the new post....
....I think
I know that, I meant the "two years on" you see in our posts :lol
« Last Edit: 31-01-2018, 20:39:25 by bosk1 »
:lolpalm: I can't read
-
Ordered my copies of The Keyboard Excerpts and Guitar TAB Excerpts for The Astonishing off Amazon. They should be here in about a week or two, and I honestly can't wait to delve into these books.
Fingers crossed they release a full orchestral score for the entire album at some point. I would love to just messily devour this thing.
-
Ordered my copies of The Keyboard Excerpts and Guitar TAB Excerpts for The Astonishing off Amazon. They should be here in about a week or two, and I honestly can't wait to delve into these books.
Fingers crossed they release a full orchestral score for the entire album at some point. I would love to just messily devour this thing.
Already got the keyboard parts, if they do release the orchestral version that would indeed be awesome.
:metal
-
Has anyone seen the 3 artworks of The Astonishing on the bands Facebook yet?
Those should've been the album artwork.
-
Has anyone seen the 3 artworks of The Astonishing on the bands Facebook yet?
Those should've been the album artwork.
Link?
-
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155063101592181&id=7677942180&fs=1
-
For some reason I didn't picture guns existing in the TA universe
-
Do we know who wrote this?
-
These artworks are great, but I really like the album cover, I think it’s perfect as it is.
-
I really love the attention to detail on the official album cover. If you look really close, you can actually see the townspeople walking around in the city & all the buildings are actually different. I know it's not much, but I feel like that much attention to detail wouldn't have been made if someone like Hugh Syme was designing the artwork.
-
For some reason I didn't picture guns existing in the TA universe
Yea same
-
The book cover is very Star Wars meets LOTR:
https://www.vaultbooks.pub/uploads/7/6/1/5/76153553/s586877350660258083_p17_i5_w1838.jpeg
-
The book cover is very Star Wars meets LOTR:
https://www.vaultbooks.pub/uploads/7/6/1/5/76153553/s586877350660258083_p17_i5_w1838.jpeg
Really cool cover
-
The book cover is very Star Wars meets LOTR:
https://www.vaultbooks.pub/uploads/7/6/1/5/76153553/s586877350660258083_p17_i5_w1838.jpeg
Really cool cover
Now THIS is a cool cover.
-
Two years on and it's still great for me. First DT album in a long time that has lasted so long.
B.Lee
-
Yeah, for me too. Everytime I listen to it, I'm blown away by the art this album delivers. Although I can imagine how it distracs some fans, for me it is a masterpiece.
-
Yeah, for me too. Everytime I listen to it, I'm blown away by the art this album delivers. Although I can imagine how it distracs some fans, for me it is a masterpiece.
Totally agree...
-
Yeah, for me too. Everytime I listen to it, I'm blown away by the art this album delivers. Although I can imagine how it distracs some fans, for me it is a masterpiece.
Totally agree...
I feel the same way. So glad they decided to make this album, it’s a aston... amazing :biggrin:
-
Yeah, for me too. Everytime I listen to it, I'm blown away by the art this album delivers. Although I can imagine how it distracs some fans, for me it is a masterpiece.
It's too long for me to call it a masterpiece, but I still love all of Disc 1 and the majority of Disc 2. So many good song on this one. :tup :tup
-
Two years, after. I still like it. A lot of good songs on it. Not the perfect album, but at the end of the day, I feel it was better for DT to create an album like The Astonishing where people can enjoy it, than for them not to create it and deprive people's enjoyment of the possibilities.
-
I like to compare much of TA to "The Best of Times".
Musically, The Best of Times is mind-blowing. For instance, the ending is one of DT's most epic (for lack of a better term) moments. JP absolutely kills it. But the choice of lyrics in the song taint the experience for me. I mean no disrespect at all toward MP. He wrote from his heart, and what he penned is actually really beautiful (RIP to his father). But in the context of a song, the lyrics just aren't for me. I guess I'm not a huge fan of "literal" lyrics, even when they are called for.
This is how I feel about a lot of the material in TA. One example - Act Of Faythe is a nice song, and then..."MY MUSSSSICCC PLAAYYEEER". I know it fits the context, but....ugh. That same kind of cringey material plagues this album, whether it's in the form of lyrics, the infamous Disney-esque musical style, over-dramatic crescendos in way too many songs, etc. And the whole thing is magnified by its 2+ hour run time, seeming very indulgent.
All that said though, I actually enjoy a good piece of the album. There are 10 songs in particular that I really love.
Dystopian Overture: A top 3 DT instrumental of all time for me. I feel like it's not very well-received, but it's incredible.
A Better Life: Awesome song! So many different parts, and I like them all.
Lord Nafaryus: I like "in character" James, and he does a good job here.
Three Days: Similar to Lord Nafaryus, it has some harder parts that I really like, and a "broadway musical" vibe.
Ravenskill: One of my favorites on the album. Love when the main riff hits.
Chosen: I know I mentioned Disney as a negative, but this song is a guilty pleasure. Sounds like it would be in "Frozen". Best ballad on the album though.
The X Aspect: Awesome melodies in this. Reminds me of a classical piece.
Moment Of Betrayal: I like this song because it feels like a break from the album. Sounds like it could be a single on any of the Mangini-era albums.
The Walking Shadow: Some really cool heavy parts
My Last Farewell: My favorite song on the second disc. Lots of great different parts
To sum it up, I think the album would be great if they removed "The Road to Revolution" and "The Answer" from the first disc and replaced them with "Moment of Betrayal" and "My Last Farewell" from the second disc. As it stands though, its an average DT album IMO.
-
Still an astonishing mis-step afaic.
-
To sum it up, I think the album would be great if they removed "The Road to Revolution" and "The Answer" from the first disc and replaced them with "Moment of Betrayal" and "My Last Farewell" from the second disc. As it stands though, its an average DT album IMO.
2 of my favourite songs on Disc 1 there in "The Answer" and "Road to Revolution" lol which is why DT will never please everyone. For me, from the start of Disc 1 up to "When Your Time has Come" is 10/10. After that it varies between brilliant and good for the rest of Disc 1 and Disc 2. I'm glad they tried something different and hope they don't make "DT by numbers" for the next CD just because it got a mixed reception.
-
I like to compare much of TA to "The Best of Times".
Musically, The Best of Times is mind-blowing. For instance, the ending is one of DT's most epic (for lack of a better term) moments. JP absolutely kills it. But the choice of lyrics in the song taint the experience for me. I mean no disrespect at all toward MP. He wrote from his heart, and what he penned is actually really beautiful (RIP to his father). But in the context of a song, the lyrics just aren't for me. I guess I'm not a huge fan of "literal" lyrics, even when they are called for.
This is how I feel about a lot of the material in TA. One example - Act Of Faythe is a nice song, and then..."MY MUSSSSICCC PLAAYYEEER". I know it fits the context, but....ugh. That same kind of cringey material plagues this album, whether it's in the form of lyrics, the infamous Disney-esque musical style, over-dramatic crescendos in way too many songs, etc. And the whole thing is magnified by its 2+ hour run time, seeming very indulgent.
All that said though, I actually enjoy a good piece of the album. There are 10 songs in particular that I really love.
Dystopian Overture: A top 3 DT instrumental of all time for me. I feel like it's not very well-received, but it's incredible.
A Better Life: Awesome song! So many different parts, and I like them all.
Lord Nafaryus: I like "in character" James, and he does a good job here.
Three Days: Similar to Lord Nafaryus, it has some harder parts that I really like, and a "broadway musical" vibe.
Ravenskill: One of my favorites on the album. Love when the main riff hits.
Chosen: I know I mentioned Disney as a negative, but this song is a guilty pleasure. Sounds like it would be in "Frozen". Best ballad on the album though.
The X Aspect: Awesome melodies in this. Reminds me of a classical piece.
Moment Of Betrayal: I like this song because it feels like a break from the album. Sounds like it could be a single on any of the Mangini-era albums.
The Walking Shadow: Some really cool heavy parts
My Last Farewell: My favorite song on the second disc. Lots of great different parts
To sum it up, I think the album would be great if they removed "The Road to Revolution" and "The Answer" from the first disc and replaced them with "Moment of Betrayal" and "My Last Farewell" from the second disc. As it stands though, its an average DT album IMO.
I don't agree with every song choice, but your overall points in this post are really well taken.
But I rate the album higher than you overall, and The Best Of Times, I consider one of DT's best songs.
-
I still think this album is a masterpiece and have never thought otherwise. A band doing anything so out-of-character and risky this late into their career is only a positive IMO. For me the only misstep are the goofy lyrics, but lyrics have honestly never been a crucial aspect of music for me. I like great lyrics, but poor lyrics just don't hinder my enjoyment of the end product (though I may be embarrassed to play it with other people around if they're especially cringeworthy).
I hope the next album isn't such a drastic reaction to this one in that they feel hesitant to go out of their comfort zone again.
-
The concept is amazing. Coupled with the book, makes it way more awesome.
-
I still think this album is a masterpiece and have never thought otherwise. A band doing anything so out-of-character and risky this late into their career is only a positive IMO. For me the only misstep are the goofy lyrics, but lyrics have honestly never been a crucial aspect of music for me. I like great lyrics, but poor lyrics just don't hinder my enjoyment of the end product (though I may be embarrassed to play it with other people around if they're especially cringeworthy).
I hope the next album isn't such a drastic reaction to this one in that they feel hesitant to go out of their comfort zone again.
I hope so too. While the lyrics aren't a complete deal breaker for me (they're pretty close though), they kept me from fulling immersing myself in the whole concept.
I just have the CD and went to a few shows. If the lyrics were anywhere approaching the music, I'd have went the whole nine yards with the book, the super-duper deluxe edition the game and whatever else they wanted to do with it. Probably would have gone to another show or two also.
I really hope they try something like this again but I'll settle for an album that continues to push the Dream Theater envelope whatever that turns out to be.
-
The concept is amazing. Coupled with the book, makes it way more awesome.
Agreed. At first I confess to not liking the lyrics or concept, but then I related it to what music has meant to me, and that kind of unlocked it and I was able to embrace it.
The book makes the concept that much better.
-
Are there any updates if there will be a paperback version of the book or so? I would love to read it but I won't pay 75 bucks (plus 1000 euro shipping to Germany) for it.
-
Are there any updates if there will be a paperback version of the book or so? I would love to read it but I won't pay 75 bucks (plus 1000 euro shipping to Germany) for it.
I asked Peter about a Kindle format (didn't ask about paperback) but he did tell me the band was working on it. I believe they will be waiting until the deluxe copies are close to selling out in order to release a cheaper format (maximizing the deluxe book profit).
-
I thought the deluxe editions were long sold out
-
I thought the deluxe editions were long sold out
Ok. It is sold out. So hopefully the paperback and kindle editions are made available soon
-
Herrick listened to the whole album the other day and I liked it a little more than last time. When I first bought the album, I was annoyed with all the slow songs but I can appreciate them a little more now. Plus I really like that one theme found throughout the album...not sure what it's called...it's in the Dystopian Overture I'm sure. And there's another theme I like that pops up here and there.
I was doing laundry and reading so I wasn't focusing on the lyrics. I'm still missing out on the story. A couple things I noticed on this latest re-listen which may be my 4th or 5th re-listen since the album came out.
1) The drums still had that weird "thunk" sound like they did on the self-titled album. Does Mangini really like that sound?
2) Whenever I found myself inadvertently paying attention to the lyrics, they seemed very easy to hear which is unusual for me. Anyone know if that was a conscious production thing?
3) The signature Dream Theater Wank (which I love for the most part) felt out of place whenever it showed up on The Astonishing. There weren't a lot of whole lot of those moments and they didn't last as long as they usually do but still...
-
1) The drums still had that weird "thunk" sound like they did on the self-titled album. Does Mangini really like that sound?
I'm not sure if he does or not but JP has the final say on stuff like that, maybe JR to a degree. Richard Chyki probably had something to do with it since he worked with them on both DT12 and The Astonishing. Just my speculation.
The "thunk" isn't as pronounced like it is on the self titled album. I think the "thunk" and the triggered like sound helps to cut through the music, although you lose the natural sound of the drums as a result.
-
1) The drums still had that weird "thunk" sound like they did on the self-titled album. Does Mangini really like that sound?
I'm not sure if he does or not but JP has the final say on stuff like that, maybe JR to a degree. Richard Chyki probably had something to do with it since he worked with them on both DT12 and The Astonishing. Just my speculation.
The "thunk" isn't as pronounced like it is on the self titled album. I think the "thunk" and the triggered like sound helps to cut through the music, although you lose the natural sound of the drums as a result.
The sound on DT12 and TA is Chycki doing 100% what Petrucci asks for, since he's the producer. Listen to the Into The Great Divide album (with Mangini on drums and Chycki producing and mixing) and the sound is completely different.
-
Into the Great Divide was a perfect showcase for Mangini. I really wish that DT takes a hint and that his drums on the next album have a sound that's closer to that than to DT12.
-
1) The drums still had that weird "thunk" sound like they did on the self-titled album. Does Mangini really like that sound?
I'm not sure if he does or not but JP has the final say on stuff like that, maybe JR to a degree. Richard Chyki probably had something to do with it since he worked with them on both DT12 and The Astonishing. Just my speculation.
The "thunk" isn't as pronounced like it is on the self titled album. I think the "thunk" and the triggered like sound helps to cut through the music, although you lose the natural sound of the drums as a result.
The sound on DT12 and TA is Chycki doing 100% what Petrucci asks for, since he's the producer. Listen to the Into The Great Divide album (with Mangini on drums and Chycki producing and mixing) and the sound is completely different.
That's too bad Mangini doesn't even get a say on how his drums sound. I'll check out Into The Great Divide.
-
After listening to the JC Superstar studio LP on Good Friday (a tradition), seeing the NBC broadcast on Easter, and then the movie on Monday.......'any' music is kind of hard to get back into. Well, we listened to my one CD edit of TA on that Tuesday......and it was the perfect blend of music.
We now have a new tradition ready for next Easter + one day. For some reason, which I can't explain, it was more enjoyable than any other time we've listened to it.
-
did someone say "one CD edit"? :hat
1. Dystopian Overture
2. The Gift Of Music
3. A Better Life
4. A Savior In The Square
5. When Your Time Has Come
6. Three Days
7. A Life Left Behind
8. Ravenskill
9. A New Beginning
10. A Tempting Offer
11. The X Aspect
12. Moment Of Betrayal
13. The Path That Divides
14. The Walking Shadow
15. My Last Farewell
16. Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
17. Our New World
-
did someone say "one CD edit"? :hat
1. Dystopian Overture
2. The Gift Of Music
3. A Better Life
4. A Savior In The Square
5. When Your Time Has Come
6. Three Days
7. A Life Left Behind
8. Ravenskill
9. A New Beginning
10. A Tempting Offer
11. The X Aspect
12. Moment Of Betrayal
13. The Path That Divides
14. The Walking Shadow
15. My Last Farewell
16. Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
17. Our New World
Wow, almost mine 80 minute edition, cool! The only difference is that I included the intro of A Life Left Behind :tup
-
My 82 min edition:
-Dystopian Overture
-Gift of Music
-A Better Life
-A Savior in the Square
-When Your Time Has Come
-Three Days
-Ravenskill
-A Tempting Offer
-A New Beginning
-Road to Revolution
-2285 Entr'acte
-Moment of Betrayal
-Heaven's Cove
-Path That Divides
-Walking Shadow
-My Last Farewell
-Our New World
-Astonishing
-
After 4 listens I made my 0 minute edition, and it flows quite well!!!
-
I couldn't make just a one CD edition. Gotta have the whole thing. :) If I don't have time to listen to it all, I just pick up where I left off.
-
:D :D well, flow is one the biggest problems of the album in its original format. Rodrigo, you should try my edited version (IDontNotDoThings edition + A Life Left Behind Intro), maybe there’s still salvation for you! :biggrin:
Seriously that edited version to me is one of the finest DT albums... great melodies, flow and diversity!
-
I couldn't make just a one CD edition. Gotta have the whole thing. :) If I don't have time to listen to it all, I just pick up where I left off.
Same here. Actually I end up in the mood for one song say The X Aspect, then I wind up listening to the rest of the disc. I can actually listen to all of these songs on their own.
-
After 4 listens I made my 0 minute edition, and it flows quite well!!!
That sounds like my Sons of Apollo CD ;)
-
After 4 listens I made my 0 minute edition, and it flows quite well!!!
That sounds like my Sons of Apollo CD ;)
Beat me to it! :lol
-
I couldn't make just a one CD edition. Gotta have the whole thing. :) If I don't have time to listen to it all, I just pick up where I left off.
Same here. Actually I end up in the mood for one song say The X Aspect, then I wind up listening to the rest of the disc. I can actually listen to all of these songs on their own.
Sometimes I do the exact same thing. :) And I can listen to them on their own as well.
-
I couldn't make just a one CD edition. Gotta have the whole thing. :) If I don't have time to listen to it all, I just pick up where I left off.
Same here. Actually I end up in the mood for one song say The X Aspect, then I wind up listening to the rest of the disc. I can actually listen to all of these songs on their own.
Sometimes I do the exact same thing. :) And I can listen to them on their own as well.
Every song, besides the NOMAC tracks, has something i really like, wheter it be the atmosphere, a riff, melody, rhythm. My favorite at the moment is Road to Revolution, love how it starts bombastic, gets soft, and ends on an uplifting edge with all the characters.
-
did someone say "one CD edit"? :hat
1. Dystopian Overture
2. The Gift Of Music
3. A Better Life
4. A Savior In The Square
5. When Your Time Has Come
6. Three Days
7. A Life Left Behind
8. Ravenskill
9. A New Beginning
10. A Tempting Offer
11. The X Aspect
12. Moment Of Betrayal
13. The Path That Divides
14. The Walking Shadow
15. My Last Farewell
16. Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
17. Our New World
Wow, almost mine 80 minute edition, cool! The only difference is that I included the intro of A Life Left Behind :tup
uh, so did I? :huh:
-
I couldn't make just a one CD edition. Gotta have the whole thing. :) If I don't have time to listen to it all, I just pick up where I left off.
Same here. Actually I end up in the mood for one song say The X Aspect, then I wind up listening to the rest of the disc. I can actually listen to all of these songs on their own.
Sometimes I do the exact same thing. :) And I can listen to them on their own as well.
Every song, besides the NOMAC tracks, has something i really like, wheter it be the atmosphere, a riff, melody, rhythm. My favorite at the moment is Road to Revolution, love how it starts bombastic, gets soft, and ends on an uplifting edge with all the characters.
Yeah - that particular track is one of those that took a little time to grow on me. I didn't dislike it at first, but I thought of it as more "expendable" so to speak. But at some point I started to appreciate it as it's own song and really got into it.
-
I couldn't make just a one CD edition. Gotta have the whole thing. :) If I don't have time to listen to it all, I just pick up where I left off.
Same here. Actually I end up in the mood for one song say The X Aspect, then I wind up listening to the rest of the disc. I can actually listen to all of these songs on their own.
Sometimes I do the exact same thing. :) And I can listen to them on their own as well.
Every song, besides the NOMAC tracks, has something i really like, wheter it be the atmosphere, a riff, melody, rhythm. My favorite at the moment is Road to Revolution, love how it starts bombastic, gets soft, and ends on an uplifting edge with all the characters.
Yeah - that particular track is one of those that took a little time to grow on me. I didn't dislike it at first, but I thought of it as more "expendable" so to speak. But at some point I started to appreciate it as it's own song and really got into it.
I see them as not really songs, but scenes of a story I feel like listening to. Its like the famous scene/song from The Phantom Of The Opera.
-
After 4 listens I made my 0 minute edition, and it flows quite well!!!
That sounds like my Sons of Apollo CD ;)
Beat me to it! :lol
You don't have to choose one or the other...and one can even not like either one!
-
I couldn't make just a one CD edition. Gotta have the whole thing. :) If I don't have time to listen to it all, I just pick up where I left off.
Same here. Actually I end up in the mood for one song say The X Aspect, then I wind up listening to the rest of the disc. I can actually listen to all of these songs on their own.
Sometimes I do the exact same thing. :) And I can listen to them on their own as well.
Every song, besides the NOMAC tracks, has something i really like, wheter it be the atmosphere, a riff, melody, rhythm. My favorite at the moment is Road to Revolution, love how it starts bombastic, gets soft, and ends on an uplifting edge with all the characters.
Yeah - that particular track is one of those that took a little time to grow on me. I didn't dislike it at first, but I thought of it as more "expendable" so to speak. But at some point I started to appreciate it as it's own song and really got into it.
I see them as not really songs, but scenes of a story I feel like listening to. Its like the famous scene/song from The Phantom Of The Opera.
I think that's the best way to look at them as well, especially for those who are maybe frustrated with the structure/flow of each track. And I do most of my listening in order. But there are times when I pick out specific tracks and when I do, I don't feel like they can't stand alone. That could be because I'm so familiar with the album, but whatever the case it works for me.
-
I couldn't make just a one CD edition. Gotta have the whole thing. :) If I don't have time to listen to it all, I just pick up where I left off.
Same here. Actually I end up in the mood for one song say The X Aspect, then I wind up listening to the rest of the disc. I can actually listen to all of these songs on their own.
Sometimes I do the exact same thing. :) And I can listen to them on their own as well.
Every song, besides the NOMAC tracks, has something i really like, wheter it be the atmosphere, a riff, melody, rhythm. My favorite at the moment is Road to Revolution, love how it starts bombastic, gets soft, and ends on an uplifting edge with all the characters.
Yeah - that particular track is one of those that took a little time to grow on me. I didn't dislike it at first, but I thought of it as more "expendable" so to speak. But at some point I started to appreciate it as it's own song and really got into it.
I see them as not really songs, but scenes of a story I feel like listening to. Its like the famous scene/song from The Phantom Of The Opera.
I totally get a Les Mis vibe from the whole thing.
I went from loving it, to really really meh, to liking it more than meh.
Believe it or not, I think my main problem with it is that it really feels like this story and this project WANTED to be even bigger, but as the “super ambitious project” starts getting this life of its own, you have two choices. Cut all the fat and make it extremely concise and focused (which would inevitably draw comparisons to SFAM) or go all in and make it a full blown play. Either one probably would have been slightly better than what we got. Some of these songs and ideas seem unfinished somehow. And so I think they should have either been finished, or been cut. Make it a full blown 3 hours, or just one. But what we got was halfway between, and I think it shows.
It was a 3 hour idea that got “chickened out” on IMO.
I still think it’s pretty good. And if nothing else, it proves that Dream Theater is not spent as a creative force. As long as John and the boys are willing to challenge themselves, it’s OK that it doesn’t go all the way sometimes.
-
Well in the novel, JP says he did want it to be a Broadway play as well. He had so many ideas for this Concept. Glad he got to do the book as well. The interviews are good too.
-
did someone say "one CD edit"? :hat
1. Dystopian Overture
2. The Gift Of Music
3. A Better Life
4. A Savior In The Square
5. When Your Time Has Come
6. Three Days
7. A Life Left Behind
8. Ravenskill
9. A New Beginning
10. A Tempting Offer
11. The X Aspect
12. Moment Of Betrayal
13. The Path That Divides
14. The Walking Shadow
15. My Last Farewell
16. Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
17. Our New World
Wow, almost mine 80 minute edition, cool! The only difference is that I included the intro of A Life Left Behind :tup
uh, so did I? :huh:
My mistake! In fact the difference between our editions is that I included Lord Nafaryus and only the intro of a ALLB. How could you cut Lord Nafaryus?! :o ;)
-
I totally get a Les Mis vibe from the whole thing.
I went from loving it, to really really meh, to liking it more than meh.
Believe it or not, I think my main problem with it is that it really feels like this story and this project WANTED to be even bigger, but as the “super ambitious project” starts getting this life of its own, you have two choices. Cut all the fat and make it extremely concise and focused (which would inevitably draw comparisons to SFAM) or go all in and make it a full blown play. Either one probably would have been slightly better than what we got. Some of these songs and ideas seem unfinished somehow. And so I think they should have either been finished, or been cut. Make it a full blown 3 hours, or just one. But what we got was halfway between, and I think it shows.
It was a 3 hour idea that got “chickened out” on IMO.
I still think it’s pretty good. And if nothing else, it proves that Dream Theater is not spent as a creative force. As long as John and the boys are willing to challenge themselves, it’s OK that it doesn’t go all the way sometimes.
I absolutely love the album, but yes I agree that the best way to present all this would be as a full Off-Broadway production. Especially with the details added in the novel adaptation, which really flesh out the story and build the world to an extent that the album just couldn't. A good portion of those could be represented in spoken scenes in between songs, which would get the best of both worlds with all the leitmotifs underscoring the action and the more fleshed out story.
Not everything could carry over and some changes would have to be made, obviously. You would need to split the story into three or four acts, because an 80 minute act of a musical is a bit long as it is and with added speaking/action scenes that could extend to two hours or 100min. And then there's Disc 2. You're looking at a 3.5-4 hour musical here with intermissions, which is CRAZY long. Plus the NOMACs are probably going to be a nightmare to pull-off in general, especially with what they're described as doing in the book. But despite all of that, I still think it would be best suited for a musical adaptation, even if it would be the Wagner of musicals.
Also, speaking of NOMACs and leitmotifs, I've noticed that a lot of people are complaining that they don't add anything to the album. The NOMAC tracks are used as a leitmotif or "musical calling card" for the Greater Northern Empire (and, usually, Daryus). They're placed around or within tracks that focus heavily on the empire being menacing towards Ravenskill, or on Daryus being villainous. Usually, when you hear NOMACs bad stuff is goin' down. It also gives a little weight to the Power Down at the end, which helps bring the story to a close. Honestly, I don't think The Astonishing without NOMAC tracks would work as well, because you lose that extra layer of story.
-
snip
Wow, almost mine 80 minute edition, cool! The only difference is that I included the intro of A Life Left Behind :tup
uh, so did I? :huh:
My mistake! In fact the difference between our editions is that I included Lord Nafaryus and only the intro of a ALLB. How could you cut Lord Nafaryus?! :o ;)
tbh I've never been much of a fan of that song. It just seems so unfocussed to me & it lacks the consistency that's so apparent in a lot of the other tracks. The transition to the soft section is one of the most forced moments on the entire album for me & it doesn't make any sense considering ASITS has almost the exact same breakdown at the end of that song, so Nafaryus just feels redundant to me & it didn't really stick out to me as a solid song all the way through. So yeah, that's why I cut it out.
I'm also pretty confused at how you made the ALLB intro on its own. That seems like it'd end really abruptl
-
I went the total opposite way in my edit version, I cut it off almost entirely :D
-
snip
Wow, almost mine 80 minute edition, cool! The only difference is that I included the intro of A Life Left Behind :tup
uh, so did I? :huh:
My mistake! In fact the difference between our editions is that I included Lord Nafaryus and only the intro of a ALLB. How could you cut Lord Nafaryus?! :o ;)
tbh I've never been much of a fan of that song. It just seems so unfocussed to me & it lacks the consistency that's so apparent in a lot of the other tracks. The transition to the soft section is one of the most forced moments on the entire album for me & it doesn't make any sense considering ASITS has almost the exact same breakdown at the end of that song, so Nafaryus just feels redundant to me & it didn't really stick out to me as a solid song all the way through. So yeah, that's why I cut it out.
I'm also pretty confused at how you made the ALLB intro on its own. That seems like it'd end really abruptl
Umm I think you're totally missing the point of the soft sections. They're the same for a reason, in Lord Nefaryus, its him revealing his family whom he loves, especially Faythe, his pride and joy. In SITS, its Gabriel revealing his instant love of Faythe.
-
That whole section of the album is what gives me the most Les Miserables vibe. “One More Day” from LM specifically.
-
Also, speaking of NOMACs and leitmotifs, I've noticed that a lot of people are complaining that they don't add anything to the album. The NOMAC tracks are used as a leitmotif or "musical calling card" for the Greater Northern Empire (and, usually, Daryus). They're placed around or within tracks that focus heavily on the empire being menacing towards Ravenskill, or on Daryus being villainous. Usually, when you hear NOMACs bad stuff is goin' down. It also gives a little weight to the Power Down at the end, which helps bring the story to a close. Honestly, I don't think The Astonishing without NOMAC tracks would work as well, because you lose that extra layer of story.
Yup. Nailed it. The are dissonant and a-musical, which on the surface may seem to make them irrelevant, but they are anything but irrelevant, in context. But I think a lot of people that miss that either don't fully understand the story, or don't much care for the story to begin with, so don't emotionally connect with what those tracks are trying to accomplish. And that's fine.
But that said, I do still somewhat feel that those tracks are a bit of a missed opportunity. We need more in the story about what the NOMACS actually are, what they do, and why they are such a menace. I mean, we're told a bit, in pretty cursory manner. But we aren't given enough to actually feel it. Kind of how we are told a bit about the people's suffering and their struggle in the revolution, but we don't really get enough details to feel the weight of it. And I know that isn't the focus of the story, but I still feel like it need a bit of that, because it is important context for the actual focus on the individual struggles of the main characters.
snip
Wow, almost mine 80 minute edition, cool! The only difference is that I included the intro of A Life Left Behind :tup
uh, so did I? :huh:
My mistake! In fact the difference between our editions is that I included Lord Nafaryus and only the intro of a ALLB. How could you cut Lord Nafaryus?! :o ;)
tbh I've never been much of a fan of that song. It just seems so unfocussed to me & it lacks the consistency that's so apparent in a lot of the other tracks. The transition to the soft section is one of the most forced moments on the entire album for me & it doesn't make any sense considering ASITS has almost the exact same breakdown at the end of that song, so Nafaryus just feels redundant to me & it didn't really stick out to me as a solid song all the way through. So yeah, that's why I cut it out.
I'm also pretty confused at how you made the ALLB intro on its own. That seems like it'd end really abruptl
Umm I think you're totally missing the point of the soft sections. They're the same for a reason, in Lord Nefaryus, its him revealing his family whom he loves, especially Faythe, his pride and joy. In SITS, its Gabriel revealing his instant love of Faythe.
REALLY good point, and solid analysis.
-
From what I've heard, the NOMACs in the novel are explained more, and they can do some pretty gnarly stuff. They are a threat and feared for good reason. The album is just 2.25 hours as it is so something had to be cut, which makes sense to me.
-
Interesting! I just thought they were 'noise machines'... I guess you were supposed to gather they were dangerous from lines like 'The noise machines lie still tonight; there's no time to lose'
-
Also, speaking of NOMACs and leitmotifs, I've noticed that a lot of people are complaining that they don't add anything to the album. The NOMAC tracks are used as a leitmotif or "musical calling card" for the Greater Northern Empire (and, usually, Daryus). They're placed around or within tracks that focus heavily on the empire being menacing towards Ravenskill, or on Daryus being villainous. Usually, when you hear NOMACs bad stuff is goin' down. It also gives a little weight to the Power Down at the end, which helps bring the story to a close. Honestly, I don't think The Astonishing without NOMAC tracks would work as well, because you lose that extra layer of story.
Great point. There's definitely meaning for those tracks, but that doesn't make them enjoyable to listen to although I guess that's also part of the point. Either way, I skip them, but found those tracks to be pretty cool live because that live bass would just rumble your insides and make you "feel" the NOMACs plus the live visuals. That's not something you experience when listening on CD.
-
Interesting! I just thought they were 'noise machines'... I guess you were supposed to gather they were dangerous from lines like 'The noise machines lie still tonight; there's no time to lose'
Yeah, I mean, they would spy and gather information at the least. But I think I remember reading that it was implied that they would also use their noise as weapons, like to paralyze their victims or something like that.
-
Also, speaking of NOMACs and leitmotifs, I've noticed that a lot of people are complaining that they don't add anything to the album. The NOMAC tracks are used as a leitmotif or "musical calling card" for the Greater Northern Empire (and, usually, Daryus). They're placed around or within tracks that focus heavily on the empire being menacing towards Ravenskill, or on Daryus being villainous. Usually, when you hear NOMACs bad stuff is goin' down. It also gives a little weight to the Power Down at the end, which helps bring the story to a close. Honestly, I don't think The Astonishing without NOMAC tracks would work as well, because you lose that extra layer of story.
Great point. There's definitely meaning for those tracks, but that doesn't make them enjoyable to listen to although I guess that's also part of the point. Either way, I skip them, but found those tracks to be pretty cool live because that live bass would just rumble your insides and make you "feel" the NOMACs plus the live visuals. That's not something you experience when listening on CD.
In a way, that is exactly how loud and Insane the NOMACS are. Especially if you read the book. I do hope they release it Digitally or in paperback. It has a lot of cool stuff that the Album just couldn't tell. It does expand the concept a lot more in detail.
edit: actually, the NOMACS would be way way way louder if they can hear them coming from afar.
-
snip
Wow, almost mine 80 minute edition, cool! The only difference is that I included the intro of A Life Left Behind :tup
uh, so did I? :huh:
My mistake! In fact the difference between our editions is that I included Lord Nafaryus and only the intro of a ALLB. How could you cut Lord Nafaryus?! :o ;)
tbh I've never been much of a fan of that song. It just seems so unfocussed to me & it lacks the consistency that's so apparent in a lot of the other tracks. The transition to the soft section is one of the most forced moments on the entire album for me & it doesn't make any sense considering ASITS has almost the exact same breakdown at the end of that song, so Nafaryus just feels redundant to me & it didn't really stick out to me as a solid song all the way through. So yeah, that's why I cut it out.
I'm also pretty confused at how you made the ALLB intro on its own. That seems like it'd end really abruptl
Umm I think you're totally missing the point of the soft sections. They're the same for a reason, in Lord Nefaryus, its him revealing his family whom he loves, especially Faythe, his pride and joy. In SITS, its Gabriel revealing his instant love of Faythe.
I mean, yeah ok, so it has a narrative reason to be there. That doesn't change that it totally comes out of nowhere & doesn't fit the tone of the rest of the song at all, or that musically it's really similar to the quiet section in SITS (which by comparison, actually has some transition into it, & serves a purpose musically - to transition into WYTHC), which makes the album feel more redundant than it needs to be.
-
I do hope they release it Digitally or in paperback.
or audiobook read by JP :)
-
Interesting! I just thought they were 'noise machines'... I guess you were supposed to gather they were dangerous from lines like 'The noise machines lie still tonight; there's no time to lose'
Yeah, I mean, they would spy and gather information at the least. But I think I remember reading that it was implied that they would also use their noise as weapons, like to paralyze their victims or something like that.
Well, yes, they can do that and
[SPOILER]
apparently the NOMACs can trace a person's "fundamental frequency" or something like that, then produce a noise causing that person to vibrate in a certain way and literally then explode. It's really gory.
[/SPOILER]
I do hope they release it Digitally or in paperback.
or audiobook read by JP :)
Or JLB, changing his voice to fit all the characters. Or have all the band members pick a character and do their voice.
-
or audiobook read by JP :)
Or JLB, changing his voice to fit all the characters. Or have all the band members pick a character and do their voice.
JLB reading, chaging his voice for each character, did cross my mind :biggrin:
Also, *obligatory "JM:......" joke*
-
or audiobook read by JP :)
Or JLB, changing his voice to fit all the characters. Or have all the band members pick a character and do their voice.
JLB reading, chaging his voice for each character, did cross my mind :biggrin:
Also, *obligatory "JM:......" joke*
inb4 JM voices Evangeline :loser:
-
Myung would definitively play Evangeline :lol
Now I want to hear James speaking as Nefaryus :metal
-
Featuring Mike Portnoy as Faythe
-
Omg I just found a nugget!
(The Gift Of Music)
My brother Gabriel
Is all the hope we need
Shining like a beacon in the night
(Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
Then like a glowing beacon in the dark
Hope came shining through
Ive listened to this album like 20 times & I never caught that before :D :o
-
Yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff like that on the album. Some is intentional. But some isn't. There was one such connection that was so well done that I was convinced that JP was a genius for having thought it up. Then when I mentioned it to him, he was like "Oh, wow. That's a cool connection you drew. That was completely unintentional, but I wish I HAD thought of that when I was writing the lyrics." :lol
-
I still really dislike it. But I think it's more interesting than DT12.
-
Okay, so I just played the album again (my edit), & all I can say is... wow... This album really never gets old. I felt every emotional moment hit like a ton of bricks & by the time The Path That Divides came on, I literally had chills. I'd always disregarded this album before because of its length & excess of filler tracks, but imo if you boil the album down to its finest moments, you've got a potential top-3 DT album on your hands (or at the very least top 5). The length still is an issue (heh), but I think this album holds some of DT's finest moments & hasn't aged a day since it came out. Amazing album. :tup
-
The Path That Divides is my favorite song on The Astonishing. In terms of a stand alone song, it's one of the better things DT has done in recent albums.
-
Yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff like that on the album. Some is intentional. But some isn't. There was one such connection that was so well done that I was convinced that JP was a genius for having thought it up. Then when I mentioned it to him, he was like "Oh, wow. That's a cool connection you drew. That was completely unintentional, but I wish I HAD thought of that when I was writing the lyrics." :lol
:lol I've always wondered if some nuggets were unintentional
Omg I just found a nugget!
(The Gift Of Music)
My brother Gabriel
Is all the hope we need
Shining like a beacon in the night
(Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
Then like a glowing beacon in the dark
Hope came shining through
Ive listened to this album like 20 times & I never caught that before :D :o
That is pretty cool, I don't think I ever picked up on that before :metal
-
Thought it was mediocre on release, kinda same feelings now. I'll give them some credit for trying though, with the concept/story and everything around the album - you can tell they at least put some effort in, even if the music left me without any feelings.
-
I can imagine in a few years...
- " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On. Wait no, THREE YEARS ON. Holy smokes, FIVE, FIVE YEARS ON. Umm SIX YEARS ON? I'm getting OLD. SEVEN YEARS ON, I'M COMING RAVENSKILL
-
I had a thought about this album earlier today: it's really cool how the album uses styles and instrumentation to represent characters. The instrumentation thing is pretty common, but using musical styles to represent different characters and ideas is something that's definitely a more modern and recent development. Nafaryus being represented by "old" styles like late renaissance instrumental music (A New Beginning), dixieland (Three Days), and tango (Lord Nafaryus) is probably the most obvious example. But there's loads of others:
Faythe is typically associated with a wordless soprano voice solo (i.e. Act of Faythe, The Walking Shadow) and more "ethereal" musical elements (Ravenskill, The Walking Shadow)
Ahrys is typically linked to march rhythms and giant wordless "gospely" choruses. Generally big "military" or "American Civil War" kind of sounds. i.e. A Better Life, Brother, Can You Hear Me?, etc.
Ravenskill seems to have a light association with solo violin. i.e. Hymn of a Thousand Voices, A Better Life
Daryus (or possibly the GNE in general) is linked to the atonal electronic NOMAC tracks and the weirder synth moments (like the synth solos in Disc 2).
Gabriel seems to have a light association with acoustic guitars. It's not 1-1, of course, but a lot of the Gabriel-focused tracks have heavy use of acoustic guitar.
Also, the musical elements that represent Ahrys and Nafaryus seem to be closely related. They're typically represented by "older" styles of music and a heavy use of choruses. Ahrys/Gabriel (and Ravenskill) seems to be more musically rooted in folk elements, like the bagpipe in A Tempting Offer, marches, solo violins, acoustic instrumentation, and more gospel-oriented choruses. Nafaryus/Daryus (and the GNE), on the other hand, is rooted in the more "sophisticated" tangos, renaissance music, and dixieland. His choirs are also more "classical", and use words more often. And, in contrast to the heavy use of acoustic guitars and hammonds in Ravenskill tracks, the GNE ones focus more on electronic instrumentation. Also, both Ahrys and Nafaryus are frequently associated with trumpet fanfares.
idk how intentional all of this is, but it's really cool nonetheless!
-
That is a neat observation.
-
That is a neat observation.
I agree! Just one of the many reasons this is one of my top 3 DT albums.
-
Also, a little nugget for y'all:
The connection between 2285 Entr'acte and Moment of Betrayal is a reference to Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto. One of the big things Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto was known for (in addition to being an absolute BANGER) was connecting the first and second movements without pause with a sustained oboe note. 2285 Entr'acte and Moment of Betrayal are connected in the exact same way.
-
It didn't live up to what I had hoped it would be before having heard it. I had bought tickets for the tour before the album was released. But I enjoyed it then and I still enjoy it today. I give it a 7 out of 10.
-
2+ years later and TA is still melting my face off! :lol :rollin
:splodetard:
-
2+ years later and TA is still melting my face off! :lol :rollin
:splodetard:
SAME HERE!
-
2+ years later and TA is still melting my face off! :lol :rollin
:splodetard:
With boredom?
-
2+ years later and TA is still melting my face off! :lol :rollin
:splodetard:
Same for me!!!
-
Also, as an aside, I was looking at ratings on rym and The Astonishing has probably the weirdest one I've seen so far. Most albums have a definite "curve" with a peak, or a "line" in the case of the extremely popular or unpopular albums. The Astonishing? It's just a freakin brick. Almost all the ratings are perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
It really perfectly illustrates the general reaction to the album: that no one can agree on whether it's great, good, okay, bad, or terrible. Just thought that was funny
-
I filed TA under 'John Petrucci & Jordan Rudess' on iTunes. I renamed the album "An Eternity With..."
... jk
I've recently been bitten by the DT bug somehow, and I've been cherry picking DT albums the past week or two, haven't listened to any Mangini era albums yet, might throw on TA first once I feel ready.
I haven't listened to this album in some time. 3-4 times in 2016, I think, then only maybe once in 2017. I recall enjoying the first few tracks, I really enjoy the Dystopian Overture. After 'The Answer' it's all blur, except JP's tight little Flower Kings-eqsue solo in When Your Time Has Come, and he has a great solo in A New Beginning, I believe, yes?
Then disc 2 is all a blur until Our New World.
The last two Mangini albums haven't done it for me, and as much as I enjoy ADTOE, I'd erase all 3 albums like they never happened for a new DT album with MP.
-
So I listened to disc 1, and I've come to the conclusion that the album drops off after When Your Time Has Come. Up to that point, I enjoyed it, though I'm not a huge fan of A Better Life, plus it was a missed opportunity to lead the song out of the tempo of the marching steps. Those first 8 tracks contain strong material, but even then I think some more work could have went into the tunes, like The Gift Of Music, A Better Life, and Lord Nafarius, but overall a solid suite of music but still doesn't eclipse what's been done before.
Onward, I never got into Three Days, and it didn't do much for me, but it's OK. A Life Left Behind has cool parts but is very disjointed, and I was just waiting for A New Beginning to start at some point. Great solo, it's too bad they cut it short with a fade out, it's one of the best moments of the album. The rest of disc 2*edited I mean disc 1, is still a whole chunk of music with little variation in color, and kind of blurs together to me, similar to DT12 from tracks 5-8, imo.
I'm saving disc 2 for later.
-
Yesterday I played “Ravenskill” for the 104th time.
-
Yesterday I played “Ravenskill” for the 104th time.
A very cool song indeed! I love when the heavy riff starts, with the bell sounds on the keyboard. It reminds me of a section on Finally Free.
-
So I listened to disc 1, and I've come to the conclusion that the album drops off after When Your Time Has Come. Up to that point, I enjoyed it, though I'm not a huge fan of A Better Life, plus it was a missed opportunity to lead the song out of the tempo of the marching steps. Those first 8 tracks contain strong material, but even then I think some more work could have went into the tunes, like The Gift Of Music, A Better Life, and Lord Nafarius, but overall a solid suite of music but still doesn't eclipse what's been done before.
Onward, I never got into Three Days, and it didn't do much for me, but it's OK. A Life Left Behind has cool parts but is very disjointed, and I was just waiting for A New Beginning to start at some point. Great solo, it's too bad they cut it short with a fade out, it's one of the best moments of the album. The rest of disc 2*edited I mean disc 1, is still a whole chunk of music with little variation in color, and kind of blurs together to me, similar to DT12 from tracks 5-8, imo.
I'm saving disc 2 for later.
While I do not agree with a lot of what you said, I totally agree with the bolded. There are only a few songs from Disc 1 I frequently skip and that is one of them. A Life Left Behind has a lot of cool things going on, but they just don't seem to come together enough to make me want to listen.
-
Giving this another spin this evening. Time for some positive thoughts:
- I want to learn to play the acoustic guitar intro to Heaven's Cove. It's stunning, and it's a frequent earworm of mine. I also love its appearance in Dystopian Overture, with JR's majestic piano arpeggios.
- Amazingly, over two years on, I've only just realised that the string part at 3:58 of Act of Faythe (immediately after "I've found my way") is the same as "We have come to hear him sing" from A Savior in the Square.
- The tango bit in Lord Nafaryus. Just YES! *dances along*
That is all. Still one of my favourite things DT have ever done. *leaves thread before inevitable trampling of enthusiastically conveyed and sincere opinions*
-
Finishing up disc 2 now. Seems like it just picks up where disc 1 left off, lots of ideas and repeated themes all mashed together, with little in the way of SONGS. The Path That Divides is nice and heavy and thrashy, very needed refreshment especially if listening to the entire album in one sitting. Heaven's Cove is cool too, with the choir sounds it reminds me of really old Disney movies like Bambi. Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is probably the best ballad on the album, and would stick out more if the album wasn't loaded with so many more ballads. Our New World is the best song on disc 2, imo, with it's anthem feel and catchy melody. The closing title track feels underwhelming, it could have done more, I mean, there is still room on the second disc... but even then, I feel like I've heard all the themes more than enough before disc 2 even starts.
Overall the shorter run time helps the 2nd disc, but a majority of the stronger material is on disc 1. However, I feel like even the best tunes on this album could have used more work, more time to settle. I really think this is a 50 minute album stretched out to over 2 hours, too. I mean, I love Neal Morse, and he reprises themes a lot in his albums, but even he doesn't bash the listener over the head with the main themes of his albums like Petrucci, Rudess, and the rest of Dream Theater do in The Astonishing. I'll resort to my 50-something minute playlist of the best of TA from here on out.
-
The solo in A New Beginning is still top 10 Dream Theater solos ever. Lord, that is some tasty stuff. :hefdaddy
Overall the shorter run time helps the 2nd disc, but a majority of the stronger material is on disc 1. However, I feel like even the best tunes on this album could have used more work, more time to settle. I really think this is a 50 minute album stretched out to over 2 hours, too. I mean, I love Neal Morse, and he reprises themes a lot in his albums, but even he doesn't bash the listener over the head with the main themes of his albums like Petrucci, Rudess, and the rest of Dream Theater do in The Astonishing. I'll resort to my 50-something minute playlist of the best of TA from here on out.
Could you elaborate? I don't feel at all like I'm being bashed over the head with the recurring motifs..
-
The solo in A New Beginning is still top 10 Dream Theater solos ever. Lord, that is some tasty stuff. :hefdaddy
Overall the shorter run time helps the 2nd disc, but a majority of the stronger material is on disc 1. However, I feel like even the best tunes on this album could have used more work, more time to settle. I really think this is a 50 minute album stretched out to over 2 hours, too. I mean, I love Neal Morse, and he reprises themes a lot in his albums, but even he doesn't bash the listener over the head with the main themes of his albums like Petrucci, Rudess, and the rest of Dream Theater do in The Astonishing. I'll resort to my 50-something minute playlist of the best of TA from here on out.
Could you elaborate? I don't feel at all like I'm being bashed over the head with the recurring motifs..
I felt like most of the main themes of the album reappeared so much they lost some of their power. Again, this goes back to my feeling that the album is very bloated. I think what the band tried to do in 2+ hours is achieved, minus vocals, with Dystopian Overture in 5 minutes.
I also feel like the 2nd disc doesn't hold up well on its own, and both discs need to be listened to in full to appreciate everything that's going on.
-
Giving this another spin this evening. Time for some positive thoughts:
- I want to learn to play the acoustic guitar intro to Heaven's Cove. It's stunning, and it's a frequent earworm of mine. I also love its appearance in Dystopian Overture, with JR's majestic piano arpeggios.
- Amazingly, over two years on, I've only just realised that the string part at 3:58 of Act of Faythe (immediately after "I've found my way") is the same as "We have come to hear him sing" from A Savior in the Square.
- The tango bit in Lord Nafaryus. Just YES! *dances along*
That is all. Still one of my favourite things DT have ever done. *leaves thread before inevitable trampling of enthusiastically conveyed and sincere opinions*
You called it. :)
I don't believe I noticed the part you're talking about in Act of Faythe either. Will have to check it out. The album is full of cool stuff like that.
-
I also feel like the 2nd disc doesn't hold up well on its own, and both discs need to be listened to in full to appreciate everything that's going on.
Well, yeah, it's a concept album, so that shouldn't be surprising. That would be like watching a movie and saying, "This part of it doesn't hold up unless you watch the whole film." It is supposed to be listened to in full.
-
As with a lot of stories, there's so much time in the first half with character and story introduction, whereas the second half is just story.
-
I also feel like the 2nd disc doesn't hold up well on its own, and both discs need to be listened to in full to appreciate everything that's going on.
Well, yeah, it's a concept album, so that shouldn't be surprising. That would be like watching a movie and saying, "This part of it doesn't hold up unless you watch the whole film." It is supposed to be listened to in full.
I know but it's just feels so loooong, and I can sit through The Flower Kings longest double albums and 3 hour long Phish and Grateful Dead concerts. I have had that feeling of 'when will this be over?' multiple times throughout every time I've listened to the album in full, either in one sitting, or split into discs. I chalked it up to not being in a Dream Theater mood for some time since after ADTOE came out, but this time I listened in the middle of a current DT binge; and while I enjoy a lot of the tunes more than ever, still hold similar feelings on TA that I did when the album came out. It's the worst Dream Theater album for me, along with DT12. Doesn't mean I hate the albums, but I can't shake the fact that the true DT sound is MP's fat sound behind JP's guitar. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
-
The solo in A New Beginning is still top 10 Dream Theater solos ever. Lord, that is some tasty stuff. :hefdaddy
Overall the shorter run time helps the 2nd disc, but a majority of the stronger material is on disc 1. However, I feel like even the best tunes on this album could have used more work, more time to settle. I really think this is a 50 minute album stretched out to over 2 hours, too. I mean, I love Neal Morse, and he reprises themes a lot in his albums, but even he doesn't bash the listener over the head with the main themes of his albums like Petrucci, Rudess, and the rest of Dream Theater do in The Astonishing. I'll resort to my 50-something minute playlist of the best of TA from here on out.
Could you elaborate? I don't feel at all like I'm being bashed over the head with the recurring motifs..
I felt like most of the main themes of the album reappeared so much they lost some of their power. Again, this goes back to my feeling that the album is very bloated. I think what the band tried to do in 2+ hours is achieved, minus vocals, with Dystopian Overture in 5 minutes.
I also feel like the 2nd disc doesn't hold up well on its own, and both discs need to be listened to in full to appreciate everything that's going on.
So that is why Awake is such a terrible album. 🧐
-
I know but it's just feels so loooong, and I can sit through The Flower Kings longest double albums and 3 hour long Phish and Grateful Dead concerts. I have had that feeling of 'when will this be over?' multiple times throughout every time I've listened to the album in full, either in one sitting, or split into discs. I chalked it up to not being in a Dream Theater mood for some time since after ADTOE came out, but this time I listened in the middle of a current DT binge; and while I enjoy a lot of the tunes more than ever, still hold similar feelings on TA that I did when the album came out. It's the worst Dream Theater album for me, along with DT12. Doesn't mean I hate the albums, but I can't shake the fact that the true DT sound is MP's fat sound behind JP's guitar. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
How can you not shake a fact that isn't an actual fact? That has to defy some kind of logic. ;)
-
So I listened to disc 1, and I've come to the conclusion that the album drops off after When Your Time Has Come. Up to that point, I enjoyed it, though I'm not a huge fan of A Better Life, plus it was a missed opportunity to lead the song out of the tempo of the marching steps. Those first 8 tracks contain strong material, but even then I think some more work could have went into the tunes, like The Gift Of Music, A Better Life, and Lord Nafarius, but overall a solid suite of music but still doesn't eclipse what's been done before.
I have to disagree. To me, far and away the strongest run of songs on the album comes toward the end of side 1, with Ravenskill, Chosen, A Tempting Offer, and The X Aspect. And A New Beginning isn't too shabby either. In fact, that may be one of my favorite runs of songs in DT's whole catalog.
But that said, I do kind of get what you are saying because, to me, it does feel like there is a dropoff in energy in the middle part of the album from Act of Faythe through A Life Left Behind. Not that there is anything "bad" about that part of the album. But it does go from feeling more "in your face" to being background music for me at times, with me re-engaging more for the final third of the disk.
-
I think Chosen is one of DT's best songs across their entire catalog, not just on TA.
-
Yup. It's a pretty tasty track.
-
A moment which never seems to get talked about might be my favorite one on the entire album: when the "Road to Revolution" chorus is reprised a little over a minute into 2285 Entr'acte with the strings. I still get goosebumps every time I hear that part. Love it.
-
Interestingly, I really love that part as well. And I say "interestingly" because Road To Revolution is nowhere near my top songs on the album. But that reprise is REALLY cool.
-
While I like both a lot, neither of those songs is among my favorites, but that reprise is just way too awesome.
-
TA is just so good that there’s a lot of cool moments like that through both discs. Even if you aren’t the biggest fan of the album, you can still find something you can enjoy.
-
So I listened to disc 1, and I've come to the conclusion that the album drops off after When Your Time Has Come. Up to that point, I enjoyed it, though I'm not a huge fan of A Better Life, plus it was a missed opportunity to lead the song out of the tempo of the marching steps. Those first 8 tracks contain strong material, but even then I think some more work could have went into the tunes, like The Gift Of Music, A Better Life, and Lord Nafarius, but overall a solid suite of music but still doesn't eclipse what's been done before.
I have to disagree. To me, far and away the strongest run of songs on the album comes toward the end of side 1, with Ravenskill, Chosen, A Tempting Offer, and The X Aspect. And A New Beginning isn't too shabby either. In fact, that may be one of my favorite runs of songs in DT's whole catalog.
But that said, I do kind of get what you are saying because, to me, it does feel like there is a dropoff in energy in the middle part of the album from Act of Faythe through A Life Left Behind. Not that there is anything "bad" about that part of the album. But it does go from feeling more "in your face" to being background music for me at times, with me re-engaging more for the final third of the disk.
Been listening to the album for the first time in ages over the last couple of days and really enjoying it. Totally agree with you about the latter part of disc one as well except I would include A Life Left Behind in that run, some really great stuff. I always liked most of disc two as well. Only dip for me was the middle of disc one.
-
A moment which never seems to get talked about might be my favorite one on the entire album: when the "Road to Revolution" chorus is reprised a little over a minute into 2285 Entr'acte with the strings. I still get goosebumps every time I hear that part. Love it.
YES, love this. I think this is why I like this instrumental so much, because that reprise gives me such a huge smile.
-
Huh. I skip the Entr’acte every time. Didn’t make my Astonishing single CD.
-
I'm not much of an instrumental guy, and, with a few exceptions, generally rank the instrumentals down near the bottom on their respective albums. But I love Entr’acte. It sets the stage beautifully for Moment of Betrayal. I haven't made a single CD, so I'm not sure how the length would work out for the songs I really would want on there. If I did, I would certainly try my best to keep Entr’acte on there if I could make it fit.
Without calculating whether it would all fit due to track lengths, my list would be something like:
The Gift of Music
The Answer
A Better Life
Lord Nefaryus
A Savior in the Square
When Your Time Has Come
Ravenskill
Chosen
A Tempting Offer
The X Aspect
A New Beginning
Entr’acte
Moment of Betrayal
Our New World
Astonishing
Not sure if that all fits, but that's about how I would do it. And, yes, I realize that is VERY Act I heavy. But I like Act I a LOT more than Act II.
-
After listening to TA... listening to something else (been a BTBAM kick for the past few months... how about Automata)... and coming back to TA over these two years, I have to say that every time I come back, I like it more and more. Honestly, I listen the the second disc almost exclusively to the detriment of the first disc (I know that's not the norm for most here, but it's where I sit).
I think it solid from start to finish and I hear all of their "eras" in the album. I still love it! I applaud them for having fun with it, I guess because I have fun with it.
-
I hear all of their "eras" in the album.
Yeah, you're right.
-
Yea, this album really is a gem and has held up well over time even when I thought I might of over listened, when I come back, it's still great.
-
Yea, this album really is a gem and has held up well over time even when I thought I might of over listened, when I come back, it's still great.
I totally agree. When I come back TA I'm usually pleasantly surprised with how much I continue to enjoy it and continue to notice things I hadn't before.
-
Without calculating whether it would all fit due to track lengths, my list would be something like:
The Gift of Music
The Answer
A Better Life
Lord Nefaryus
A Savior in the Square
When Your Time Has Come
Ravenskill
Chosen
A Tempting Offer
The X Aspect
A New Beginning
Entr’acte
Moment of Betrayal
Our New World
Astonishing
Not sure if that all fits, but that's about how I would do it.
67:50 :tup
But no Path That Divides? :eek
-
My Astonishing Abridged..68 minutes
The Gift Of Music
Lord Nefaryus
A Savior In The Square
When Your Time Has Come
Act Of Faythe
Three Days
Ravenskill
The X Aspect
A New Beginning
Moment Of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell
Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
To me, I&W is the Holy Grail, but I'd put my Astonishing Abridged up against anything else in their discography.
-
But no Path That Divides? :eek
Good song, but middle of the pack at best on that record.
If I had to condense it down to 1 CD, I would go with:
Dystopian Overture
The Gift of Music
The Answer
A Better Life
Lord Nafaryus
A Savior in the Square
When Your Time Has Come
Three Days
Ravenskill
Chosen
The X Aspect
A New Beginning
The Road to Revolution
2285 Entr'acte
Moment of Betrayal
Heaven's Code
Whispers on the Wind
Hymn of a Thousand Voices
Our New World
-
Thought I'd bring this conversation into the appropriate thread
Theresa would've been perfect i think for Faythe.
But it was just a thought I had.
I fucking love the album immensely. Love James' vocals and his different styles for each character. Wish we got more Arabelle dialogue though, he used his nice warm somber style for her. And I find the buildup to "My Music Player" beautiful with JPs run. I dont have any problem with that lyric. I mean how else you gonna represent Faythes greatest gift of all.
I like the Arabelle voice too. :) And I agree with you about the music player. I thought it was kinda cheesy the first time I listened to it, and I get why people don't like it, but it does make sense.
It's an integral part of the entire story. Without it Faythe wouldn't have known music and its beauty, power, she likely only knew NOMAC music. She wouldn't then have fallen in love with Gabriel, Nefaryus wouldn't have got upset and retaliate with war.
-
I understand the place in the story and have no problem with it mentioning the music player in the lyrics, it's just how it's introduced, this huge "MY MUSIC PLAYERRRR" moment. It just makes me cringe a little every time although I will say that I'm not fond of that song as a whole and tend to skip it. I have a similar issue with the "tell me is it true, bug was always you, finally I can reveal HOW MUSIC MAKES ME FEEL!!" moment in A New Beginning although I do like that song as a whole so I can live it.
-
I understand the place in the story and have no problem with it mentioning the music player in the lyrics, it's just how it's introduced, this huge "MY MUSIC PLAYERRRR" moment. It just makes me cringe a little every time although I will say that I'm not fond of that song as a whole and tend to skip it. I have a similar issue with the "tell me is it true, bug was always you, finally I can reveal HOW MUSIC MAKES ME FEEL!!" moment in A New Beginning although I do like that song as a whole so I can live it.
That's one of my favorite moments on the album. I think it's a great buildup to what immediately follows.
-
The 'father is it true' part of ANB bugs me too, but more because a lot of ANB is a direct reference to Jesus Christ Superstar. Honestly it's merely an 'okay' song to me - it's the solo tripping at 5:00 that makes me love the song so much. :2metal:
-
The 'father is it true' part of ANB bugs me too
:biggrin:
-
The 'father is it true' part of ANB bugs me too
:biggrin:
NUGGETZ :neverusethis:
-
I understand the place in the story and have no problem with it mentioning the music player in the lyrics, it's just how it's introduced, this huge "MY MUSIC PLAYERRRR" moment. It just makes me cringe a little every time although I will say that I'm not fond of that song as a whole and tend to skip it. I have a similar issue with the "tell me is it true, bug was always you, finally I can reveal HOW MUSIC MAKES ME FEEL!!" moment in A New Beginning although I do like that song as a whole so I can live it.
Man, that's like one of my favorite parts on the album. I belt it out every time that part comes on lol. To each their own, I guess!
-
I understand the place in the story and have no problem with it mentioning the music player in the lyrics, it's just how it's introduced, this huge "MY MUSIC PLAYERRRR" moment. It just makes me cringe a little every time...
I have no idea why that would be. I LOVE pretty much every aspect of that part of the song.
-
I understand the place in the story and have no problem with it mentioning the music player in the lyrics, it's just how it's introduced, this huge "MY MUSIC PLAYERRRR" moment. It just makes me cringe a little every time although I will say that I'm not fond of that song as a whole and tend to skip it. I have a similar issue with the "tell me is it true, bug was always you, finally I can reveal HOW MUSIC MAKES ME FEEL!!" moment in A New Beginning although I do like that song as a whole so I can live it.
That's one of my favorite moments on the album. I think it's a great buildup to what immediately follows.
Yea, that's like the climax of the first disc and I absolutely love it. Although I have one issue with it, which is the reference to BUG which I don't think makes any sense unless you read the website. Well, I did so I get it and it doesn't ruin the song or anything, but I just find it odd to go that route with the lyrics when the story wasn't really clear about BUG.
-
I understand the place in the story and have no problem with it mentioning the music player in the lyrics, it's just how it's introduced, this huge "MY MUSIC PLAYERRRR" moment. It just makes me cringe a little every time although I will say that I'm not fond of that song as a whole and tend to skip it. I have a similar issue with the "tell me is it true, bug was always you, finally I can reveal HOW MUSIC MAKES ME FEEL!!" moment in A New Beginning although I do like that song as a whole so I can live it.
Its meant to be a big moment though. Thats Faythe revealing her Gift of Music, The music player she had found in the castle, Relating to The Gift of Music.
-
That’s cool that people like it, not trying to convince anyone not to, just explaining why I’m not so keen. Still overall a fan of the album though and still enjoy it 2 years on.
-
Just gave it a proper listen last weekend, it's still my 2nd favorite DT album. I like some songs more than others, but I like all of the songs, it's an enjoyable listen for me. Some things I noticed:
The transition between the first NOMAC track and the overture is a bit abrupt and weird. Could be better.
Hovering Sojurn should be longer. Either make it over 30 seconds as a break or don't have it at all. Seems awkward as is. The other NOMAC tracks are decent breaks.
I slept on Tempting Offer. That's a good one.
-
DT could release digitally the first track as it was presented in the concerts, without cuts. The mood for the story would be set much easier.
-
Incidentally I just recently listened to (the bulk of) this album last week. A few of my general thoughts:
It's a fun journey, for the most part. Considering how mediocre (I think) the story is, the album could've easily lost 30-45 minutes. Some of the tracks towards the end of Disc 1 (Ravenskill, Chosen, A Tempting Offer) do absolutely nothing for me, and I think Disc 2 is pretty hit or miss. Speaking of the latter disc, it also takes a little bit to get going, but there's some great dramatic crescendos in The Path that Divides and The Walking Shadow. And the finale, which really is the 3 closing tracks, are all great for their own reasons. Hymn of a Thousand Voices is a nice, folksy tune with shades of gospel. Our New World is a straightforward rockin' one, with some great melodies. And then there's Astonishing, which is more in the vein of your classic show closer, with a pleasant wrap-up of all the main themes. It may be too many "finales" but I like 'em.
While I seem pretty negative on the album of the whole, I love that DT wrote a lot of shorter songs. Unfortunately, as with most concept albums (or rock albums), if you're not all in to what the story is selling, then the album suffers (depending on your focal point in lyrics, I suppose).
It's ironic that there seems to be some disappointment about the latest album having shorter songs, when there are so many fantastic and epic tracks in The Astonishing. The epic track, A New Beginning, is only 7:41. There are longer songs on DOT, but I hope they can measure up. Hell, even a 3 and a half minute track like Lord Nefaryus reaches places that other DT "epics" have not.
Bottom line: I like the majority of the tracks, as I do any other DT album (for the most part), but the story can make it harder to get into.
-
Well, many musical stories are pretty silly or add some blatantly irrelevant subplots or things the writer could have excluded.
For me it's ok, one of the best DT albums ever, it's totally up there with SFAM for me, and I've covered several songs, analyzed many more and even plan on making a tribute, and of course I'd include at least one or two TA songs.
And taking advantage of this thread's appearance, I can say that DT fans are some of the most biased ones I've ever seen.
I'm used to dealing with widows, there are tons of widows in every band where a member quits because you're used to that person's influence and of course you're in your right to criticize a band's work.
But, in my opinion, there's a difference between criticizing a band's work and actively taking credit away or just shitting on a band's new work while also actively denying flaws from the past era, a clear example of this is fans saying that melodies are mediocre or music isn't good. Seriously, what?
This album is great and I still hear it to this day, and I'm actually concerned that in the new album DT will do too much of "the same" they've been doing since SC, I'd rather have them go out and experiment like they did with TA, which is an effort I appreciate.
-
When The Astonishing came out, my daughter was 7 years old. She was super interested in Princess Faythe, her pink hair, and all the characters and story. I played TA constantly and we had many conversations about the plot. Like, how everyone just happened to have their own personal reason to be at Heaven's Cove. Her favorite song was A New Beginning. "Father is it true, BUG was always you?" had her singing along in the back seat of my car.
When the tour started, I brought her to her first concert... The Astonishing at Radio City! She had some pink in her hair, and was one of only a couple kids I saw there. Every last person gave her a big smile, and I lost track of how many people said, "Hey, a new fan!" and stuff like that. We were on top of the world before the concert started.
When they played A New Beginning, Petrucci moved to the center of the stage and brought the house down. One of my favorite concert moments of all time. A 7 year old stayed seated and paying attention to the entire show. I bought her a tour book, and a shirt. Instead of drinks after the show, we got Magnolia cupcakes in NYC. There are too many cool things about that night to mention, but the coolest thing to me is the lasting impression it made on her.
Now, I don't expect my kid to listen to all the same music I do, and she doesn't. But she has great musical taste. She listens to music that's good, and she can articulate exactly why she thinks it's good. She doesn't listen to stuff just because the other kids do. And, she still loves her some Astonishing.
So... to me and my family, The Astonishing played a pivotal role. It gave a young person some real insight into complicated, heavy, deep music. I think getting into the whole TA world was eye opening to what music could do. I believe she has a bit of strength and independence from the whole experience.
It wasn't the mass appeal of Trans Siberian Orchestra. It wasn't the women of Nightwish or Delain that my daughter related to. It was The Astonishing that steered my daughter towards carefully crafted music, and maybe thinking for herself a little more. Two years later I still love the music of The Astonishing, and I'm still grateful for it.
-
Snip.....
What a loveley story. Wonderful that your daughter really go into TA.
It is a fantastic piece of music, my favorite from DT and I am soo sad that there will never be a DVD of the tour.
-
Yeah, that was a massive fuck up from whoever calls the shots there.
If they planned a one time TA show with orchestra and choir I'd go, seriously, I'd go, no matter if it's in another country, I'd arrange papers and just fucking go.
-
Two years on?
I still don't really like it. There are a few awesome moments in several songs (including all of "A new beginning"), the NOMAC tracks where great and I wish they where longer, but overall I just don't think most of it was a well written album and didn't find the concept original or well-executed.
-
It's terrible, the most times goes by, the less I listen to the astonishing (meaning I listen even more to the other albums).
I have a little group of songs I just love and enjoy, but most of the other songs aren't stimulating me enough individually.
Plus, last week I tried to introduce a friend to DT and only had the astonishing in the car, it was hard to find the most heavy and proggy parts of the album.
Happily we'll have soon 14+others albums to listen in the DT sphere :D
-
Two years on?
I still don't really like it. There are a few awesome moments in several songs (including all of "A new beginning"), the NOMAC tracks where great and I wish they where longer, but overall I just don't think most of it was a well written album and didn't find the concept original or well-executed.
Now this is an unpopular opinion
-
I absolutely adore it for what it is.
The complete opposite of a complicate album, if not for its length, with several moments where the melodies rich the peak in DT catalog. I get the criticisms about these being moments instead of full songs, but that’s the point of this album. Although, I have to admit i’ll never get how a song like The Path that Divids - one among a few others - didn’t receive the praise it absolutely deserve (except for the laughable fight sounds).
There’re some lame elements in this, though: the story, for instance, it’s so weak I can only picture it as something told by a father to his baby child. The marketing campaign has been very out of focus too, way too focused on trying to give elements of the story instead of give people a clear vision about what to expect (people knowing it was a concept were expecting another Scenes, and bought tickets well in advance because of that).
Everything that followed was a consequence of that, with the app and the book being done in a general context of discontent (well, mostly) and I get there should have been also a certain degree of frustration at least from JP, as you don’t put so much energy and commitment just for the fact of being free to do so, but you do because you believe it has the potential to shine (which I think it had).
All in all, a fantastic collection of gorgeous melodies for an album tha will stands as a unique moment in DT history.
-
...
Wow! great story! thanks for sharing.
I absolutely love the album, one of my top 3 DT albums (together with SFAM & SDOIT). I rarely have the time to listen to it in its enterity, but I usually listen in chunks of 4 or 5 songs.
-
What a loveley story. Wonderful that your daughter really go into TA.
It is a fantastic piece of music, my favorite from DT and I am soo sad that there will never be a DVD of the tour.
Wow! great story! thanks for sharing.
I absolutely love the album, one of my top 3 DT albums (together with SFAM & SDOIT). I rarely have the time to listen to it in its enterity, but I usually listen in chunks of 4 or 5 songs.
Thanks... here we are on our big night:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8799/28157646053_644452dc27_b.jpg)
...and we can't wait for the Distance Over Time show!
-
Dude, that's awawesome!
-
Well, many musical stories are pretty silly or add some blatantly irrelevant subplots or things the writer could have excluded.
For me it's ok, one of the best DT albums ever, it's totally up there with SFAM for me, and I've covered several songs, analyzed many more and even plan on making a tribute, and of course I'd include at least one or two TA songs.
And taking advantage of this thread's appearance, I can say that DT fans are some of the most biased ones I've ever seen.
I'm used to dealing with widows, there are tons of widows in every band where a member quits because you're used to that person's influence and of course you're in your right to criticize a band's work.
But, in my opinion, there's a difference between criticizing a band's work and actively taking credit away or just shitting on a band's new work while also actively denying flaws from the past era, a clear example of this is fans saying that melodies are mediocre or music isn't good. Seriously, what?
This album is great and I still hear it to this day, and I'm actually concerned that in the new album DT will do too much of "the same" they've been doing since SC, I'd rather have them go out and experiment like they did with TA, which is an effort I appreciate.
NEVER had a problem with the music, even now.
-
What a loveley story. Wonderful that your daughter really go into TA.
It is a fantastic piece of music, my favorite from DT and I am soo sad that there will never be a DVD of the tour.
Wow! great story! thanks for sharing.
I absolutely love the album, one of my top 3 DT albums (together with SFAM & SDOIT). I rarely have the time to listen to it in its enterity, but I usually listen in chunks of 4 or 5 songs.
Thanks... here we are on our big night:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8799/28157646053_644452dc27_b.jpg)
...and we can't wait for the Distance Over Time show!
Nice!
-
Two years on?
I still don't really like it. There are a few awesome moments in several songs (including all of "A new beginning"), the NOMAC tracks where great and I wish they where longer, but overall I just don't think most of it was a well written album and didn't find the concept original or well-executed.
Now this is an unpopular opinion
It may be, but I like the Nomac tracks, too--I wish a few of them were longer and more developed, instead of just being little ditties.
I like a lot of electronic music, though.
-
Still don't think I have listened to all of it, both discs, from start to finish. I know I've played disc 1 but by then I have had more than enough. It's just so... Boring.
-
Were those deluxe box-sets ever delivered?
-
Haven't listened to it since The RCMH show a couple years ago. :|
-
Were those deluxe box-sets ever delivered?
Yup. And the NOMACS are pretty Damn detailed. Not bad for being 3D printed.
Although I haven't listened to it in full in quite a while, its still a fantastic album. I still play songs from it too. I joined some songs into one track as those are meant to go together.
My favorite song is actually Road To Revolution. I like the optimistic, determined feel of the music and of the characters themes.
I do agree that disc 1 can, at times, drag on a bit. Particularly after Act of Faythe, then picks back up during The X Factor. Funny thing is though, thats mainly where Faythe has her themes and story.
-
What a loveley story. Wonderful that your daughter really go into TA.
It is a fantastic piece of music, my favorite from DT and I am soo sad that there will never be a DVD of the tour.
Wow! great story! thanks for sharing.
I absolutely love the album, one of my top 3 DT albums (together with SFAM & SDOIT). I rarely have the time to listen to it in its enterity, but I usually listen in chunks of 4 or 5 songs.
Thanks... here we are on our big night:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8799/28157646053_644452dc27_b.jpg)
...and we can't wait for the Distance Over Time show!
Dude, that is ALL KINDS of awesome!!! I'm also a proud dad, but my little girl is only now warming up to rock songs. She's 4 years old, and likes Toto's Africa, Mr. Big's To Be With You, AC/DC's Yo Shook Me All Night Long and Twisted Sister's We're Not Gonna Take It. There she is:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxB7T4cb/d1b3f09b-1f2d-4f59-9218-0b060e2c3812.jpg)
-
@Rodrigo and Mark: You're excellent role models... If I ever become a father, I'll try to raise my children like you do! Props :metal
-
@Rodrigo and Mark: You're excellent role models... If I ever become a father, I'll try to raise my children like you do! Props :metal
+1 :metal :metal
-
That is such a cool story Mark. :)
-
:metal :metal :metal
-
Mark and Rodrigo, that is awesome!!! Loved your posts!
Reading this thread made me wanting to listen to TA again. I still think it's a huge effort and all in all just a masterpiece.
-
So cool you guys. I absolutely love it.
-
Cheers mates !
My daughter is not even 5 months old, but I have high hopes haha
-
The Astonishing lovers unite.
-
A couple years (and at least a half dozen complete play-throughs) under my belt have left me with two distinct thoughts.
1. The Astonishing is an impenetrable mess of an album. I get what they were trying to do, but it is simply not for me. (this could change though as I have found it less burdensome to get through on my last playthrough than ever before...but I kinda hate the idea that I need to 'try' to get through a record. Life's way to short for that.
2. A Life Left Behind is my favorite song from this band since Octavarium, and easily in my top 5 for them all time. I don't know what it is about that song, but man, it just kills me every time.
-
I still feel it's one of the most ambitious and progressive albums of the band.
Sure it might be a departure from their "core" sound, but that's the point of progressive music in general i think.
There are some awesome melodies in there, one of James' finest albums, that could be helped with a bit of trimming, but i still listen to a lot of songs.
-
Just popping in to say that TA is still my favorite DT album.
-
I still feel it's one of the most ambitious and progressive albums of the band.
Sure it might be a departure from their "core" sound, but that's the point of progressive music in general i think.
There are some awesome melodies in there, one of James' finest albums, that could be helped with a bit of trimming, but i still listen to a lot of songs.
I could not agree more with that statement! James owns the Astonishing.
-
I still feel it's one of the most ambitious and progressive albums of the band.
Sure it might be a departure from their "core" sound, but that's the point of progressive music in general i think.
There are some awesome melodies in there, one of James' finest albums, that could be helped with a bit of trimming, but i still listen to a lot of songs.
+1 to all of this.
-
Just popping in to say that TA is still my favorite DT album.
It's not my favorite, but it has aged really well with me over the last couple years.
-
I would have liked a tad more differences in the voices of the characters. Maybe add some effects to some of them.
-
The title of this thread should be "The Astonishing Thread. Haters stay the f out!" haha j/k
-
I would have liked a tad more differences in the voices of the characters. Maybe add some effects to some of them.
Seeing as they were playing to a click track live, I don't get why they couldn't have had a few female voices on the album.
-
I would have liked a tad more differences in the voices of the characters. Maybe add some effects to some of them.
Seeing as they were playing to a click track live, I don't get why they couldn't have had a few female voices on the album.
My guess was they just didn't want to get stuck with an album on their discography with other vocalists being a main part. Let JLB sing it all formally and if it came possible to do it live with others they could record that, which obviously never happened, but I am just guessing that's why the album is with JLB only.
The whole thing that makes me so upset is that this album didn't get the proper live release it deserves. If it was more popular I'd imagine they would have done it and maybe do it with a special show with orchestra/choir/guests.
-
I would have liked a tad more differences in the voices of the characters. Maybe add some effects to some of them.
Seeing as they were playing to a click track live, I don't get why they couldn't have had a few female voices on the album.
My guess was they just didn't want to get stuck with an album on their discography with other vocalists being a main part. Let JLB sing it all formally and if it came possible to do it live with others they could record that, which obviously never happened, but I am just guessing that's why the album is with JLB only.
The whole thing that makes me so upset is that this album didn't get the proper live release it deserves. If it was more popular I'd imagine they would have done it and maybe do it with a special show with orchestra/choir/guests.
Yeah. It definitely sucks. If there was ever a tour that was worthy of a proper filming and presentation, this was it. I like to think that had TA come out instead of Octavarium, it would have gotten a proper filming. I just don't think the money is in it anymore to put on that kind of a production.
-
TA is #3 in my list of favorite DT albums.
I don't get why people feel like they have to listen through the whole album. I rarely do. I just listen to 3 or 4 songs here and there and never listen through the whole album.
I purposely ignored the official explanations/backstories for the fictional characters. I don't even know what the plot is supposed to be. I make up my own story (which probably is pretty close to the "official" plot, but I since I'm not aware what the plot is supposed to be, I'm not sure how well it aligns). I enjoy doing this.
The more I enjoy TA, the less I appreciate the stereotypical DT fan. People clamored for the band to do something different, and when they did, severly critised them. It seems like progressive music fans just want the same tried and true DT formula (which is a good formula I must admit). It just seems like there isn't much experimentation in prog anymore, which increases my appreciation for TA.
-
People want whatever they like, and they don't even know it until they got it.
Music stirs deep passions and love, and just like feelings, is not rational. If DT had done something "different", and whatever "different" meant happened to be stuff that people who dislike The Astonishing liked, they would have praised the band for doing so.
Music has to click somehow, and as I said, it's not always rational. Describe me your perfect girl... what is she like? let's assume you like her tall, with dark hair and brown eyes. I bring you to meet a tall girl with dark hair and brown eyes and still you don't like her. Why? because feelings and attraction do not follow a precise formula. So is music, you could ask for a specific song in a certain style with a certain tempo and with lyrics about a subject you care, get that exact song, and still not like it. With music it's a toss, really, it has to either click with you or it doesn't.
-
Personally, I'm glad they didn't add other voices to the album. I think James' performance is incredible, and live he really brought it all to life. If they ever do a broadway-type treatment and have other singers do different parts, I think it would be cool. But I love the album as it is and was glad they didn't have a cast of singers touring with them.
To MirrorMask's point - I think that's definitely true. There are bands that I should like "on paper," but I just don't. If The Astonishing didn't move some of the fanbase, then so be it. It happens. But I wish some of those people could have left the vitriol behind.
-
Indeed, there's nothing wrong with some people not liking it, but what I can't stand is people saying things like "DT can't do good prog metal anymore" or "this isn't prog/metal enough". I mean, they made a slightly different concept album with the focus on it as a rock opera, something like Ayreon would do. It's not like they released a polka or gangsta rap album and released it as a prog metal album. Some people just complain for the sake of it.
-
Thoroughly enjoy TA - a shame there is no live DVD/Bluray. And how about that swingjazz blast beat section in Three Days... :metal
-
Thoroughly enjoy TA - a shame there is no live DVD/Bluray. And how about that swingjazz blast beat section in Three Days... :metal
And some people say they don't do anything new/different anymore :lol
-
Thoroughly enjoy TA - a shame there is no live DVD/Bluray. And how about that swingjazz blast beat section in Three Days... :metal
Yea. I didn't care much for the album. It was just too much and too samey for me. However, I might have enjoyed watching it (not in person) a lot more. I'm not super likely to dedicate 2 hours or whatever to a CD. But I'd gladly dedicate that time to a live DVD.
Now, if they did a full on production with different singers as the cast? Oh hell yes.
-
Thoroughly enjoy TA - a shame there is no live DVD/Bluray. And how about that swingjazz blast beat section in Three Days... :metal
And some people say they don't do anything new/different anymore :lol
:lol you can't win with the dt fan base
-
Still hoping for a live album, but that ship already sailed.
-
Yea, I gave up hope awhile ago. Might have to wait for the 15 or 20 year anniversary tour to catch them doing it again :lol
-
To be honest, Ayreon's concept album plots are also fairly silly, if not very cliché
-
Yea, I gave up hope awhile ago. Might have to wait for the 15 or 20 year anniversary tour to catch them doing it again :lol
Except for one or two songs, I think it's pretty much done. Even they abandoned it for the Images and Words nostalgia tour sadly...
-
Blame the very vocal section of the fanbase that hated it for that :tdwn
-
I still like The Astonishing. I probably rate it as my 3rd favorite DT album. If anything whether or not I enjoyed the songs or not, I would have still praise DT for being this ambitious which I feel like should be the spirit of any kind of progressive music. I feel like when fans want "this and that" and they want at a certain way and bands deliver "this and that" on the fans' whims, especially if they are a progressive band, I feel like that band is no longer progressive or ambitious.
I would always prefer bands with a long-enduring fanbase that takes fans on their journey, their vision without any outside influences (labels, managers, fans, whatever) and the fans is willing to bite on it and is along for the ride (pun intended). I was listening to Owl City's Cinematic album that came out this year and this dude that created Fireflies and the Ocean Eyes album and people wanted him to go back to doing the Ocean Eyes sound. Instead, with Owl City's Cinematic album, Adam Young talked about the stories and events of his personal life and had a sound that is still him, but interpreted in many different ways and it is still Owl City. It isn't Ocean Eyes, but seeing Owl City live, his fans still like it enough, and he played 10 songs from the new album in his shows and everyone still love those songs and sang along with it (included the song All My Friends, which everyone hated on first listen and they probably still hate the studio version).
I hoped that the same effect happened regarding The Astonishing. Imagine what would have happened if a lot more people went along for the ride regarding The Astonishing and not have this rather unnecessary vocal backlash. The ambition that went into The Astonishing can be translated into future works. I don't know if Distance Over Time can carry on with the same ambition that went into The Astonishing, but I'm not feeling that ambition so far with Untethered Angel (it's still a good song though, but I feel it lacks something) in comparison to The Gift of Music which had that sort of music whimsicalness that can take you on an adventure. I prefer whimsicalness over dark and broody sounds at times (which is why I'm listening to Owl City more often in comparison to other music).
I would like to be proven wrong as always, but it's a "we'll see what happens" like many things.
One more thought about a particular song from The Astonishing. Hymn of A Thousand Voices made me have a tear in my eye when I read the actual meaning to it in relation to the story. Heck, it makes me want to try to find some way to sing it at my local church (very few songs I like in life has that sort of effect where I want to sing it out loud at a local church and feel proud of it).
-
That's a really cool post Anguyen. I see where you're coming from about the journey and experimentation, but I"m not quite as concerned about DT. I do indeed wish more of the fan base had liked it - or at least that the naysayers had been more respectful. However, I feel like DT is pretty passionate about their heavy side, and even if the reaction to the Astonishing had been overwhelmingly positive, they still might have wanted to do something similar to what they're doing now. Because they would have gotten the theatrical, and somewhat lighter, project out of their system for a bit and would have been eager to write something heavier anyway. I feel like Distance Over Time could be fresh and exciting - I guess time will soon tell. :)
-
I loved the Astonishing on it’s release and still do. There is something about it that really got me invested in the musical adventure it takes on. I do enjoy a good musical and can almost see this on a broadway setting. It was big and bold and has some phenomenal musical pieces throughout.
What is interesting to me is I love a long DT epic with the best of them. But one of my favourite little bits of music from TA is “The Answer”, clocking in just shy of 2 minutes. And this is one of the things I love about the band - they can put out so many great sections of music in a variety of different ways. There’s a few tracks like the Nomac ones and whispers on the wind which I tend to skip, but not really a big deal in the current age of playlists. On the whole, there seemed to be some fairly vocal detractors from the album, but so be it. Doesn’t ruin my enjoyment of the album, so I’ll just to continue to crank it in my car and sing along hard, even though I can’t hold a note to save myself 😊
-
One more thought about a particular song from The Astonishing. Hymn of A Thousand Voices
I have a very difficult time deciding whether this song or Chosen is my favorite on the album. Hymn of A Thousand Voices was so awesome live with the crowd singing/screaming the "Glorious sound - Guide her tonight - Out of the darkness - Into the light" part.
-
Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is awesome, and it is the closer on my Astonishing Abridged CD.
-
I only listen to certain tracks I like (which aren't that many). Probably about 9 songs total. Lately, I really like The X Aspect. Great beginning, very melodic and continues to build throughout until it kicks me to the curb with the bagpipes. :facepalm:
-
LOVE The X Aspect. That 4 song run of Ravenskill, Chosen, A Tempting Offer, The X Aspect just slays me.
-
LOVE The X Aspect. That 4 song run of Ravenskill, Chosen, A Tempting Offer, The X Aspect just slays me.
Me too...
-
LOVE The X Aspect. That 4 song run of Ravenskill, Chosen, A Tempting Offer, The X Aspect just slays me.
Me too...
Absolutely! The evangeline theme reprise...wonderful!
-
The amount of people that don't like bagpipes is amazing, it's even ranked somewhere among the worst instruments ever.
-
The amount of people that don't like bagpipes is amazing, it's even ranked somewhere among the worst instruments ever.
I love them and think they fit greatly in the concept.
-
I think bagpipes have its charm in music. That stated, I can understand if you hear bagpipes all the time, you just want to poke a hole in the bag to stop the noise.
-
They sounds OK if done right, like the Intro track to Korn's Issues album.
-
LOVE The X Aspect. That 4 song run of Ravenskill, Chosen, A Tempting Offer, The X Aspect just slays me.
The X Aspect really hits me too, I think its the way each verse is bolder than the previous. It just builds..That was an AWESOME song LIVE! Leaves me wanting more...in a way.
-
I think bagpipes have its charm in music. That stated, I can understand if you hear bagpipes all the time, you just want to poke a hole in the bag to stop the noise.
I like how AC/DC uses them in "A Long Way to the Top if Y ou Want to Rock-n-Roll".
They are used very well on TA album throughout!
-
Bagpipes are awesome.
-
Bagpipes are awesome.
https://youtu.be/K-Op1Mng4oY
-
It's the same as women and machinery. Bagpipes and DT don't mix. :p
-
It's the same as women and machinery. Bagpipes and DT don't mix. :p
c'mon man, I am an aircraft mechanic. :heart
-
It's the same as women and machinery. Bagpipes and DT don't mix. :p
(https://oceanlinersmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Bernard-Fox-Titanic-300x266.jpg)
-
I'm a big Astonishing fan and would like to edit my own single disc version one day, just for fun. I am hoping we will get at least one TA song on the new tour.
-
It's the same as women and machinery. Bagpipes and DT don't mix. :p
c'mon man, I am an aircraft mechanic. :heart
Cool! I hope you can listen to the new DT while doing an annual on a plane without losing focus. Every rivet or tiny crack in a cylinder is critical.. :metal
-
It's the same as women and machinery. Bagpipes and DT don't mix. :p
c'mon man, I am an aircraft mechanic. :heart
Cool! I hope you can listen to the new DT while doing an annual on a plane without losing focus. Every rivet or tiny crack in a cylinder is critical.. :metal
I could've, but am retired from that and own a hydraulic shop with my hubby. But could have easily re-installed and rigged the horizontal or vertical stabilizer while rocking to any DT!! :metal
-
Oh yeah, I think that would help. There's a lot en-TAILED on that section of the plane. :biggrin:
A good way to describe some of DT music = 100LL. High octane! :metal
-
Would you say the album drags on too much, or does it have enough thrust to keep it going? :P
-
Would you say the album drags on too much, or does it have enough thrust to keep it going? :P
It "lifts" me every time ;)
-
LOVE The X Aspect. That 4 song run of Ravenskill, Chosen, A Tempting Offer, The X Aspect just slays me.
The same for me : this run is unbelevable! But The X Aspect : what a fabulous little song! Love everything about it.
B.Lee
-
Speaking of a run, I'd say that the initial one is the strongest one - From the Overture until Three Days, it's pure uninterrupted perfection. I concede that out of this bunch, Act of Faythe is not as awesome as the rest, but all in all, it's an unparalled and uninterrupted run of awesome songs.
-
Would you say the album drags on too much, or does it have enough thrust to keep it going? :P
It "lifts" me every time ;)
Weight a minute there
-
Really strange....I played it about 4 times when it came out and just couldnt get into it. But because of this thread, I thought Id have another go {while jamming along as well} and I really really like it. erggh now the bagpipes have just come in...but I'll ignore those lol!
-
Would you say the album drags on too much, or does it have enough thrust to keep it going? :P
It "lifts" me every time ;)
Weight a minute, man.
Fixed.
-
Speaking of a run, I'd say that the initial one is the strongest one - From the Overture until Three Days, it's pure uninterrupted perfection. I concede that out of this bunch, Act of Faythe is not as awesome as the rest, but all in all, it's an unparalled and uninterrupted run of awesome songs.
This is one of those things where I think presentation, like track order, can make a huge difference.
It sounds completely arbitrary - but if The Astonishing had been a run of three LPs, maybe with releases every three weeks, I'd probably have a lot more time for it, and that first disc would have been killer!
The Saviour
(Descent of the NOMACs)
1. Dystopian Overture
2. The Gift of Music
3. The Answer
4. A Better Life
5. Lord Nafaryus
6. A Saviour in the Square / When Your Time Has Come
7. Act of Faythe
8. Three Days
ca. 37 minutes
The Plan
(The Hovering Sojourn)
1. Brother Can You Hear Me
2. A Life Left Behind
3. Ravenskill
4. Chosen
5. A Tempting Offer
(Digital Discord)
6. The X Aspect
7. A New Beginning
8. The Road to Revolution
ca. 53 minutes 43 minutes, thank you IDontNotDoThings!
The Astonishing
1. 2285 Entr'acte
2. Moment of Betrayal
3. Heaven's Cove
4. Begin Again
5. The Path that Divides
(Machine Chatter)
6. The Walking Shadow
7. My Last Farewell
8. Losing Faythe
9. Whispers on the Wind
10. Hymn of a Thousand Voices
11. Our New World
(Power Down)
12. Astonishing
ca. 51 minutes
Without making any changes to the music (in fact, you could even extend A New Beginning and Descent of the NOMACs now you're not limited by the length of the disc!) that feels a lot more digestible.
It's the same way I'll rarely put a three hour film on, but I'll happily watch three hours' worth of something on Netflix. I'd probably still get fatigued if I played it all start to finish, but the option to "jump off" at points makes it feel less daunting. I also think it'd help certain songs stand out, particularly on the second half of the first disc. BCYHM is the point where I lose energy at the moment - I don't think I'd have the same issue with it if it were the second disc's opener. And honestly, all three of those discs are still longer than some of my favourite full albums this year.
Honestly, there's still stuff I'd cut, and it still wouldn't be my favourite album. But it feels like the DT album I most want to fiddle around with.
-
I agree with you; the idea that the first disc could be seen as Act 1 and Act 2 joined together, with the second disc being Act 3, crossed my mind. The ending of Three Days is a perfect moment for a symbolic "curtain call".
-
Yeah, I'm thirding that. I've always mentally divided Disc 1 into an Act I from Descent to Three Days and an Act II for the rest of it. It just works so well as an act closer imo!
-
Glad to see all of the love for this album. I've listened to it twice the last 30 days. I actually have a hard time knowing the song titles but love the whole flow. It's a shame if got so much hate.
-
Glad to see all of the love for this album. I've listened to it twice the last 30 days. I actually have a hard time knowing the song titles but love the whole flow. It's a shame if got so much hate.
Yeah same here, I think it is monumental in DT's catalog and it never gets old for me. I enjoy it everytime it finds it's way back to the CD player, which is quite often.. :coolio
-
Glad to see all of the love for this album. I've listened to it twice the last 30 days. I actually have a hard time knowing the song titles but love the whole flow. It's a shame if got so much hate.
Yeah same here, I think it is monumental in DT's catalog and it never gets old for me. I enjoy it everytime it finds it's way back to the CD muuuuusic player, which is quite often.. :coolio
FTFY
-
Oh yeah, much better! ;)
-
Speaking of a run, I'd say that the initial one is the strongest one - From the Overture until Three Days, it's pure uninterrupted perfection. I concede that out of this bunch, Act of Faythe is not as awesome as the rest, but all in all, it's an unparalled and uninterrupted run of awesome songs.
This is one of those things where I think presentation, like track order, can make a huge difference.
It sounds completely arbitrary - but if The Astonishing had been a run of three LPs, maybe with releases every three weeks, I'd probably have a lot more time for it, and that first disc would have been killer!
The Saviour
(Descent of the NOMACs)
1. Dystopian Overture
2. The Gift of Music
3. The Answer
4. A Better Life
5. Lord Nafaryus
6. A Saviour in the Square / When Your Time Has Come
7. Act of Faythe
8. Three Days
ca. 37 minutes
The Plan
(The Hovering Sojourn)
1. Brother Can You Hear Me
2. A Life Left Behind
3. Ravenskill
4. Chosen
5. A Tempting Offer
(Digital Discord)
6. The X Aspect
7. A New Beginning
8. The Road to Revolution
ca. 53 minutes
The Astonishing
1. 2285 Entr'acte
2. Moment of Betrayal
3. Heaven's Cove
4. Begin Again
5. The Path that Divides
(Machine Chatter)
6. The Walking Shadow
7. My Last Farewell
8. Losing Faythe
9. Whispers on the Wind
10. Hymn of a Thousand Voices
11. Our New World
(Power Down)
12. Astonishing
ca. 51 minutes
Without making any changes to the music (in fact, you could even extend A New Beginning and Descent of the NOMACs now you're not limited by the length of the disc!) that feels a lot more digestible.
It's the same way I'll rarely put a three hour film on, but I'll happily watch three hours' worth of something on Netflix. I'd probably still get fatigued if I played it all start to finish, but the option to "jump off" points makes it feel less daunting. I also think it'd help certain songs stand out, particularly on the second half of the first disc. BCYHM is the point where I lose energy at the moment - I don't think I'd have the same issue with it if it were the second disc's opener. And honestly, all three of those discs are still longer than some of my favourite full albums this year.
Honestly, there's still stuff I'd cut, and it still wouldn't be my favourite album. But it feels like the DT album I most want to fiddle around with.
I had toyed around quite a bit with different ways of doing the album, but I hadn't thought of this. That REALLY could have worked. And it would have allowed for a song to cover the biggest area that I thought was lacking: A song or two about the war itself that helped take the stakes up a notch, including something about the NOMACS themselves to make them seem more fearsome. There would be room in Act I the way you have it divided up, and I think it could have worked really nicely. Musically, Three Days is a really cool way to end Act I. But in terms of plot, putting a song right there about the people dying in war and poverty, and Nafaryus being at the center of it all would have served the story really well.
-
Speaking of a run, I'd say that the initial one is the strongest one - From the Overture until Three Days, it's pure uninterrupted perfection. I concede that out of this bunch, Act of Faythe is not as awesome as the rest, but all in all, it's an unparalled and uninterrupted run of awesome songs.
This is one of those things where I think presentation, like track order, can make a huge difference.
It sounds completely arbitrary - but if The Astonishing had been a run of three LPs, maybe with releases every three weeks, I'd probably have a lot more time for it, and that first disc would have been killer!
The Saviour
(Descent of the NOMACs)
1. Dystopian Overture
2. The Gift of Music
3. The Answer
4. A Better Life
5. Lord Nafaryus
6. A Saviour in the Square / When Your Time Has Come
7. Act of Faythe
8. Three Days
ca. 37 minutes
The Plan
(The Hovering Sojourn)
1. Brother Can You Hear Me
2. A Life Left Behind
3. Ravenskill
4. Chosen
5. A Tempting Offer
(Digital Discord)
6. The X Aspect
7. A New Beginning
8. The Road to Revolution
ca. 53 minutes
The Astonishing
1. 2285 Entr'acte
2. Moment of Betrayal
3. Heaven's Cove
4. Begin Again
5. The Path that Divides
(Machine Chatter)
6. The Walking Shadow
7. My Last Farewell
8. Losing Faythe
9. Whispers on the Wind
10. Hymn of a Thousand Voices
11. Our New World
(Power Down)
12. Astonishing
ca. 51 minutes
Without making any changes to the music (in fact, you could even extend A New Beginning and Descent of the NOMACs now you're not limited by the length of the disc!) that feels a lot more digestible.
It's the same way I'll rarely put a three hour film on, but I'll happily watch three hours' worth of something on Netflix. I'd probably still get fatigued if I played it all start to finish, but the option to "jump off" points makes it feel less daunting. I also think it'd help certain songs stand out, particularly on the second half of the first disc. BCYHM is the point where I lose energy at the moment - I don't think I'd have the same issue with it if it were the second disc's opener. And honestly, all three of those discs are still longer than some of my favourite full albums this year.
Honestly, there's still stuff I'd cut, and it still wouldn't be my favourite album. But it feels like the DT album I most want to fiddle around with.
I had toyed around quite a bit with different ways of doing the album, but I hadn't thought of this. That REALLY could have worked. And it would have allowed for a song to cover the biggest area that I thought was lacking: A song or two about the war itself that helped take the stakes up a notch, including something about the NOMACS themselves to make them seem more fearsome. There would be room in Act I the way you have it divided up, and I think it could have worked really nicely. Musically, Three Days is a really cool way to end Act I. But in terms of plot, putting a song right there about the people dying in war and poverty, and Nafaryus being at the center of it all would have served the story really well.
It makes sense. Even with the book.
-
ca. 53 minutes
I think your addition may be a bit wrong there...
-
LOVE The X Aspect. That 4 song run of Ravenskill, Chosen, A Tempting Offer, The X Aspect just slays me.
I'll take it and raise you a five song run adding A Life Left Behind. ;)
-
I tried to listen to TA again this morning. I got through most of disc 1, and had to turn it off.
I'm by no means slagging DT, or any fans that truly love the record. I know all music has its place, and people like what they like. But to me, I just can't wrap my head around the direction that the guys took Dream Theater with this record. It's a huge left-turn, and like many bands that get to a certain point creatively, there's a lot of risk associated with that. I think now, two years on, The Astonishing remains a point of contention between fans. Put me solidly in the camp that wishes John would have made this a solo record, or a joint Petrucci-Rudess effort.
I appreciate what JP was trying to achieve. But I think it pushed the box that is Dream Theater a bit beyond where it should have (for my personal tastes). The individual performances on the album should be celebrated (everyone performs outstanding, particularly The Pirate). But its a very difficult listen for this fan, given the band's sonic evolution from WDADU to self-titled.
-
So Promised Land?
:neverusethis:
:lol
-
I'm glad they took that risk instead of launching another DT12 like they're seemingly going to do now :loser:
-
So Promised Land?
:neverusethis:
:lol
As you know, from being scolded many times, 😄 Promised Land wasnt a left hand turn for Queensryche. You could tell it was coming based on songs like Silent Lucidity, Anybody Listening, etc. It wqs a very natural evolutionary path for QR. Where they made that left turn was Hear in the Now Frontier. And being dead serious, that album was nowhere near a drastic turn in comparison to The Astonishing. HITNF was also a LOT easier to listen to than TA.
-
So Promised Land?
:neverusethis:
:lol
As you know, from being scolded many times, 😄 Promised Land wasnt a left hand turn for Queensryche. You could tell it was coming based on songs like Silent Lucidity, Anybody Listening, etc. It wqs a very natural evolutionary path for QR. Where they made that left turn was Hear in the Now Frontier. And being dead serious, that album was nowhere near a drastic turn in comparison to The Astonishing. HITNF was also a LOT easier to listen to than TA.
Jeez, it had never crossed my mind that TA was a drastic turn.
Personally, Images & Words - Awake is a more drastic turn than DT12-TA
-
I don't think it's a drastic change either. I get it that it's different, but it's just Dream Theater doing a rock opera kind of album. I still recognize all the trademarks of DT, when I heard the album even for the first time I never for a moment thought "Wow, if it wasn't for James singing, I couldn't even recognize this is DT". It's still Dream Theater doing a rock opera, just like Train of Thought was clearly and obviously Dream Theater doing a heavy album.
-
The only drastic change are the track lengths, the music sounds just like DT to me.
-
The only drastic change are the track lengths, the music sounds just like DT to me.
Overall, I agree, I'd add the lyrics being different too. Beyond the track lengths and some of the lyrics, it's pretty much a DT sounding album on the "softer side" of the spectrum.
-
re: drastic turn
It's really interesting that you guys feel differently. I guess the perspective I come at it from is this:
To me, most bands who have maintained their core writing team have this songwriting evolution that follows a logical path. TAC mentioned Queensryche. All of Queensryche's stuff really went (in hindsight) in a predictable arc from the EP through HITNF, when that original band was together. For Dream Theater, given that Kev Mo, then Derek, then Jordan, were JP's musical writing partners, they don't necessarily follow that same path. Only really starting with Scenes from a Memory and moving onward. And from that point, if you take Scenes as DT's "debut," I don't see any hints in their material that show some sort of move toward a Broadway-inspired album.
That's the way I was coming at it. However, in reading your replies, I started to think a little more about it, and I guess False Awakening Suite hints at it. Damn, you all just talked me out of it. :lol I guess the hints were there, looking back at DT self-titled (admittedly, I don't go back to that record enough).
In any event, I guess for me, on a personal level, that's sorta why I checked out of DT for awhile. They just haven't been going places that have really resonated with me, with The Astonishing being way out in left-field. I am an admirer of Broadway stuff. And that sort of lengthy store put to music. But the TA record and story just don't excite me at all.
So
-
I'm glad they took that risk instead of launching another DT12 like they're seemingly going to do now :loser:
This. "Progressive" is not rehashing Awake/FII/TOT over and over.
-
And from that point, if you take Scenes as DT's "debut," I don't see any hints in their material that show some sort of move toward a Broadway-inspired album.
Really??? From Scenes? Honestly, when listening to that album by itself, them doing a Broadway-inspired album doesn't feel surprising to me at all. The only thing that is surprising is that it took them so long to get around to it. Honestly, I remember thinking to myself during that album cycle that if ever a metal band was suited to do a Broadway musical-type album, it would be Dream Theater. And I remember discussions along those lines on the boards back then as well. I think it was in their DNA from VERY early on, and there are little hints of it in their music all throughout their career.
That said, I can see both sides of the "drastic turn" argument. In many senses, the music and writing on TA was typical DT. In many ways, it was not. It just depends on what you emphasize and focus on. And this is kind of true of a lot of bands that have the sort of longevity that DT has had, and the variety of influences and the musical chops to pull off different styles--every now and then, they will do something that is pretty "outside the box" of what fans might otherwise expect. And, inevitably, when bands do that, you see mixed fan reaction. Some embrace it. Some don't. That's just the way it is.
-
bosk, read my latest reply toward the end. You're quoting something I've since shifted on.
-
I tried to listen to TA again this morning. I got through most of disc 1, and had to turn it off.
I'm by no means slagging DT, or any fans that truly love the record. I know all music has its place, and people like what they like. But to me, I just can't wrap my head around the direction that the guys took Dream Theater with this record. It's a huge left-turn, and like many bands that get to a certain point creatively, there's a lot of risk associated with that. I think now, two years on, The Astonishing remains a point of contention between fans. Put me solidly in the camp that wishes John would have made this a solo record, or a joint Petrucci-Rudess effort.
I appreciate what JP was trying to achieve. But I think it pushed the box that is Dream Theater a bit beyond where it should have (for my personal tastes). The individual performances on the album should be celebrated (everyone performs outstanding, particularly The Pirate). But its a very difficult listen for this fan, given the band's sonic evolution from WDADU to self-titled.
THIS exactly. Couldn't agree more.
-
I tried to listen to TA again this morning. I got through most of disc 1, and had to turn it off.
I'm by no means slagging DT, or any fans that truly love the record. I know all music has its place, and people like what they like. But to me, I just can't wrap my head around the direction that the guys took Dream Theater with this record. It's a huge left-turn, and like many bands that get to a certain point creatively, there's a lot of risk associated with that. I think now, two years on, The Astonishing remains a point of contention between fans. Put me solidly in the camp that wishes John would have made this a solo record, or a joint Petrucci-Rudess effort.
I appreciate what JP was trying to achieve. But I think it pushed the box that is Dream Theater a bit beyond where it should have (for my personal tastes). The individual performances on the album should be celebrated (everyone performs outstanding, particularly The Pirate). But its a very difficult listen for this fan, given the band's sonic evolution from WDADU to self-titled.
This perfectly nails my feelings about the album. I totally respected the performances, and what they achieved, but it has so little of what DT is for me.
-
Hi guys and gals. Sorry to butt in -- mostly lurk and don't post very often, but I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts. I saw this video today and it made me think of The Astonishing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkUq4sO4LQM
What do you think? Real life NOMACS? :eek
-
That's cool.
-
Japan are really ahead of the curve when it comes to this sort of innovation. Sadly, I don't think they are as ahead of the curve when it comes to wanting to monetize said innovation to international markets.
-
I tried to listen to TA again this morning. I got through most of disc 1, and had to turn it off.
I'm by no means slagging DT, or any fans that truly love the record. I know all music has its place, and people like what they like. But to me, I just can't wrap my head around the direction that the guys took Dream Theater with this record. It's a huge left-turn, and like many bands that get to a certain point creatively, there's a lot of risk associated with that. I think now, two years on, The Astonishing remains a point of contention between fans. Put me solidly in the camp that wishes John would have made this a solo record, or a joint Petrucci-Rudess effort.
I appreciate what JP was trying to achieve. But I think it pushed the box that is Dream Theater a bit beyond where it should have (for my personal tastes). The individual performances on the album should be celebrated (everyone performs outstanding, particularly The Pirate). But its a very difficult listen for this fan, given the band's sonic evolution from WDADU to self-titled.
I see this has been discussed in a few posts with Bosk and co. But is it really that big a left turn? I’ve been with the band from I&W and what I love is that there is always something to like on every album. And I feel no different with TA. While I enjoy the music far more than others, I essentially just see a concept album, a range of piano, guitar and vocal driven songs, some soaring ballads and solos, moments of heavyness - pretty much everything that makes Dream Theater. I’m totally fine if the music doesn’t resonate with you, and you have been great and very respectful in your opinions. But other than the rock opera format (which I agree from Bosk - seems they were made for and surprising it took this long to eventuate), I just don’t see how it’s drastically such a left turn.
I have a massive DT playlist in the car that plays on shuffle, and all my fave songs from TA really do blend in pretty seamlessly amongst the rest of the catalogue. Just my 2 cents. Peace :tup
-
Heard it for the first time in quite a while and I can safely say this is still top 3 record.
Honestly climaxes like the end of The Path That Divides are among the greatest in DT history
-
Honestly climaxes like the end of The Path That Divides are among the greatest in DT history
I remember hearing the album the first time, I was shocked just like seeing it happen in a movie.
I was there listening to the story unfold and then
"...But there's a cost with every fight
And Arhys' fight for hope
Cost him his very life"
...WAIT, WHAT?
[Dramatic music ending the song]
REALLY? HE'S DEAD? REALLY??
I was just shocked. Totally didn't see it coming.
-
The Path that Divides is 10/10. It’s just wonderful. They could’ve gotten better samples maybe for the swordfight itself (the screaming sounds like an Age of Empires sample) but otherwise it’s wonderful.
-
The Path that Divides is 10/10. It’s just wonderful. They could’ve gotten better samples maybe for the swordfight itself (the screaming sounds like an Age of Empires sample) but otherwise it’s wonderful.
I agree! I love the way that the song flow from sections to sections in a way that feels more like their 20 minutes songs than their shorter songs. And I still get shivers everytime when the ''chorus'' hits. Just the way it builds and then opens up with an epic variation of When Your Time Has Come is just glorious.
-
"You dare defy the prince?
Well you just threw your life away
Along with Xander's dreams
You chose the wrong man to betray"
Favorite lines from the song. I saw Mike the Music Snob once talking about this song. I thought his take on it was interesting. It's a long video about The Astonishing in general, but he starts talking about the story leading up to The Path that Divides at about 11:40. He starts the actual review of the song at about 13:30.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-S5yQxZPMo
-
That song is just masterful.
-
The Path that Divides is 10/10. It’s just wonderful.
This guy knows what's up.
-
It'll be interesting to see how the band treats The Astonishing going forward. For example, whether or not they'll include any surprises from it on future setlists. It's truly a shame that the backlash from some fans appeared to diminish their enthusiasm towards the album. There's quite a few songs on there that I think would work beautifully alongside the other material. Maybe hearing some of the less obvious songs in that context might help people appreciate them a bit more.
-
Gut feeling is that it will be discarded because "it works better as a whole", then I'm all for some songs here and there in future setlist.
Heck, whatever remains of their carrer probably wouldn't be long enough to properly play the better song(s) changing each one for every future tour.
-
It'll be interesting to see how the band treats The Astonishing going forward. For example, whether or not they'll include any surprises from it on future setlists. It's truly a shame that the backlash from some fans appeared to diminish their enthusiasm towards the album. There's quite a few songs on there that I think would work beautifully alongside the other material. Maybe hearing some of the less obvious songs in that context might help people appreciate them a bit more.
I still feel ashamed towards the band for the harsh opinions that were spread about TA. Read a lot of disrespectful things around in and outside the forum about this daring and ambitious chrystal. Despite I like visiting DTF.org (daily), from that album on I feel little disconnected to a major part of the fanbase TBH. But who cares.
-
It's truly a shame that the backlash from some fans appeared to diminish their enthusiasm towards the album.
[/quote)
Exactly, they sure seemed to move on from it fast. It almost seemed that the label pushed for a Images & Words and beyond tour to make a business recovery type move. I could be wrong, but that's kind of how I took the whole situation. Almost like they went into panic mode and said "quick we need to do this anniversary tour of our biggest selling album to restore the fanbase!"
It is a shame that a lot of DT fans dissed TA so much, it's really a brilliant piece of work. I hope they revisit it someday soon and perhaps make a one-off live production of it so it can be preserved on film for a very special bluray/dvd. That could be sooo epic!!!
-
It almost seemed that the label pushed for a Images & Words and beyond tour to make a business recovery type move. I could be wrong, but that's kind of how I took the whole situation. Almost like they went into panic mode and said "quick we need to do this anniversary tour of our biggest selling album to restore the fanbase!"
I can assure you that that is not at all how it happened. As I've said on here before, it was IN PART a reaction to the TA tour. But not in the way you are describing. Again, here is basically what happened:
Attendance numbers for the first U.S. leg were a bit lower than normal. Not enough to raise concerns. But they were a bit lower than recent tours. The second U.S. leg was supposed to be relatively short and focus almost entirely on markets they didn't hit the first time around. But the booking got screwed up. That leg ended up repeating a bunch of markets, and ended up being longer than the band wanted. They were not happy, but it was booked, so they honored it. And as to be expected, there was an immediate, noticeable dropoff in attendance in many places because it was the second time they were playing the exact same show in the same markets. Keep in mind that these were 'evening with' shows where they were exclusively playing The Astonishing and nothing else. I think that even people who were pretty big fans of the album didn't necessarily want to see it again so soon with nothing else in the set list. So that's why they decided to change it up a bit and slightly shorten the TA part and add in the three encore "hits." I wouldn't call it a "panic" decision by any means. But they recognized what was going on and wanted to give the fans some fan favorites to come see the band again.
By this time, they had already been planning on doing the I&WAB tour because I&W's 25th anniversary was coming up. But partly as a reaction to the unintended oversaturation of TA due to it being mis-booked, I think that somewhat fed into some of the "fan favorite" choices for the non-I&W set. They mainly just wanted to reward the fans by playing songs that they had observed got some of the best crowd reactions through the years. But they were also aware that, again because of the mis-booking of the second leg of the TA tour, this would be the third time that fans in some markets would be seeing the band on a single tour cycle (even if it ended up being a pretty LONG tour cycle), so they wanted it to be something different and fun.
-
Cool, thanks for clearing that up! It sounds like they need to get better booking agents. Another reason I say that is because their booking agents tend to snub the PNW area.
Also, good on the band for honoring the repeated dates on that tour. DT is a class act! :tup
-
And it's also worth noting that the "images and words and beyond" tour was supposed to just be that initial leg in Europe - because they were gonna cover a lot of the same areas they covered on The Astonishing tour, they chose the 25th anniversary tour aspect. But the 25th anniversary tour aspect was so sought after that the logical business decision was to extend it throughout the year. If their original plan had stuck, they would've recorded D/T in 2017 instead, with the release coming up in 2018.
DT has pretty much operated "on their own" since SFAM days - the labels has more or less been a distribution partner for their album, whereas the touring and that type of business has been dealt with by their own company (and the people they hire to do that job). Any elaborate stage setups are paid out of their own pocket. All the people working for DT at a DT show are employees/contractors of the DT company. The only way the label would figure into a tour decision would be that the band owed the label money, and they needed to tour to make money to pay the label back...
-
^Yup, all that.
-
Amazingly nobody sought it in South America
-
Amazingly nobody sought it in South America
I know a many people who would've loved to have it here (Peru), but unfortunately there's not enough mainstream demand for DT's management to accept playing here again (only played here once, in 2010).
However, Brazil, Chile and Argentina always have at least one or two dates each when DT tours, so I bet it had something to do with TA Live not being as succesful there as they expected.
-
Amazingly nobody sought it in South America
I know a many people who would've loved to have it here (Peru), but unfortunately there's not enough mainstream demand for DT's management to accept playing here again (only played here once, in 2010).
However, Brazil, Chile and Argentina always have at least one or two dates each when DT tours, so I bet it had something to do with TA Live not being as succesful there as they expected.
I recall seing pics of these venues filled and they even had 2 dates in Chile and 2 dates in Mexico City, and the riskiest show was arguably the Guadalajara one which sold out completely.
They pretty much wasted a chance to print money by not bringing the I&W tour here.
-
Honestly climaxes like the end of The Path That Divides are among the greatest in DT history
I think what gets lost in the conversation about this album is how many songs actually do have epic/dramatic endings. I think some got so focused on the shorter song lengths that they overlooked how epic some of the songs really are. Heck, songs like Act of Faythe and Losing Faythe don't get talked about a lot, relative to other songs from the record, but both have endings I would describe as epic.
-
Heck, songs like Act of Faythe and Losing Faythe don't get talked about a lot, relative to other songs from the record, but both have endings I would describe as epic.
I love both songs and they both made my Astonishing Abridged CD. Losing Faith is absolutely amazing.
-
I think Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is one of DT's most beautiful, epic endings of all time. I've said it before, but I wish they would have done it where instead of Gabriel gaining his voice back and saving Faythe, they just had the entire town sing (represented by that choir part, "glorious sound...") and that's what saved Faythe. I think it would have made that part of the story a bit more touching and beautiful because it would have shown that all in all Gabriel's gift wasn't music because everyone had 'the gift of music' inside of them all along His gift was the ability to inspire change and show the people that they just needed to embrace music, as well as show them that when everyone works together (sings together) they're more powerful than any one man could ever be.
-
I still think that naming the main character Gabriel was the right call... and it doesn't have anything to do with my name being Gabriel... of course not... :biggrin:
-
I think Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is one of DT's most beautiful, epic endings of all time. I've said it before, but I wish they would have done it where instead of Gabriel gaining his voice back and saving Faythe, they just had the entire town sing (represented by that choir part, "glorious sound...") and that's what saved Faythe. I think it would have made that part of the story a bit more touching and beautiful because it would have shown that all in all Gabriel's gift wasn't music because everyone had 'the gift of music' inside of them all along His gift was the ability to inspire change and show the people that they just needed to embrace music, as well as show them that when everyone works together (sings together) they're more powerful than any one man could ever be.
I like that. And I agree about that first sentence. It's the closer on my Astonishing Abridged CD and it's really the perfect ending IMO.
-
Heck, songs like Act of Faythe and Losing Faythe don't get talked about a lot, relative to other songs from the record, but both have endings I would describe as epic.
I love both songs and they both made my Astonishing Abridged CD. Losing Faith is absolutely amazing.
I think Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is one of DT's most beautiful, epic endings of all time.
I like that. And I agree about that first sentence. It's the closer on my Astonishing Abridged CD and it's really the perfect ending IMO.
:eek :eek :eek
What happened to the TAC who wants his music to always ROCK? :P
-
Oh Shoot! :facepalm:
I meant My Last Farewell! :lol
Losing Faith blows! :lol :lol
My Last Farewell is amazing!
And Act Of Faythe is awesome too! ;D
Honestly Kev, I don't need, or want, my metal from Dream Theater. Before The Astonishing, the two things I wanted most from a new Dream Theater album was more piano and more James. The Astonishing gave us that in spades.
-
I had forgotten about this meme I saw a couple years ago, and am re-posting it here because:
1. It's hillarious
2. It's TA related (hey, it has JP, JM and a NOMAC)
:biggrin:
(https://i.redd.it/vacxud48ei4y.jpg)
-
Is that Splent on top?
-
Honestly Kev, I don't need, or want, my metal from Dream Theater. Before The Astonishing, the two things I wanted most from a new Dream Theater album was more piano and more James. The Astonishing gave us that in spades.
Jokes aside, I totally know what you mean. :tup :tup
-
Tosin doesnt even look like he's photoshopped in.
-
When I first heard TA, it didn't feel like my cup of tea somehow. I remember really zooming in on the heavier tracks like Three Days and The Walking Shadow and being kind of turned off by the more piano-based ones. At the time, I wasn't even interested in seeing them live here in São Paulo. I just wrote it off as "the one Dream Theater album I'm not crazy about".
A few years later, here am I, listening to this thing on repeat for days, sorely lamenting having missed that show (though I guess I wouldn't have enjoyed it then as I would now).
I don't know if I went soft in my old age or if my horizons broadened a little bit, but the whole thing is speaking to me now more than ever. The whole thing kind of sounds like the angelical counterpart to the obviously demonic group Devil Doll and their sprawling epics, in a way.
With all that being said, it'd be killer if, for this tour around a (presumably) heavier album, it'd be great if TA were represented by a "Nafaryus Section" with Lord Nafaryus and/or Three Days! Fat chance, but who knows?
EDIT:
Subsequent thoughts:
- To me, this feels like the achievement of what the band were aiming for in the title track for 6DOIT.
- If I had to find a word for this album, it'd be "Rewarding".
- That melody around the part where Faythe sings "This very moment (...)" in When Your Time Has Come (and its subsequent appearances) may be my favorite moment in the whole thing, along with the calm piano part in Ravenskill.
- This album is a master class in how to use a 7-string without screaming HEY, I'M USING A SEVEN STRING GUITAR!! I know JP has showed he knows his way around the guitar, but the sudden low notes really work in the arrangement, like in Brother Can You Hear Me.
- Now, my only criticism of the album is for the fade-out in A New Beginning. I'll look into how they solved that one live!
-
- Now, my only criticism of the album is for the fade-out in A New Beginning. I'll look into how they solved that one live!
If that outgoing solo was ever recorded live and put on DVD, it would have overtaken the Hollow Years solo from LAB as JP's best guitar solo.
-
- This album is a master class in how to use a 7-string without screaming HEY, I'M USING A SEVEN STRING GUITAR!! I know JP has showed he knows his way around the guitar, but the sudden low notes really work in the arrangement, like in Brother Can You Hear Me.
- Now, my only criticism of the album is for the fade-out in A New Beginning. I'll look into how they solved that one live!
Spot on. The 7-string works more harmonically than just a rhythmic chugga chugga chugga... BTW, salve salve, paulista(no)!
-
- This album is a master class in how to use a 7-string without screaming HEY, I'M USING A SEVEN STRING GUITAR!! I know JP has showed he knows his way around the guitar, but the sudden low notes really work in the arrangement, like in Brother Can You Hear Me.
- Now, my only criticism of the album is for the fade-out in A New Beginning. I'll look into how they solved that one live!
Spot on. The 7-string works more harmonically than just a rhythmic chugga chugga chugga... BTW, salve salve, paulista(no)!
More Brazilians her on DTF? Yessss!!!!
-
Spot on. The 7-string works more harmonically than just a rhythmic chugga chugga chugga... BTW, salve salve, paulista(no)!
More Brazilians her on DTF? Yessss!!!!
É isso aí moçada, só na torcida pelo D/T ser o bicho que tá prometendo!
Brazilian DTF takeover hahah
-
Listened to this again earlier today. The music still sounds amazing to me.
-
Listened to this again earlier today. The music still sounds amazing to me.
I usually listen to The Astonishing at least once per month. The melodies are still some of the most beautiful things DT's ever done (this comes from someone who passionately loves and listens to movie soundtracks all day long).
-
Listened to the whole thing yesterday after not having done so for a longer time.
I still really like it, there are some really cool things going on. But I think it's a little bit too long.
-
Still loving TA! :tup
-
It wouldn't surprise me at all if I learned that TA has been my most played album ever. It's not absolutely drop-dead amazing or anything, but it's probably the album I find the most fun in playing, whether trying to dissect its many ideas or just getting absorbed in its world & characters.
Initially the songs I didn't like stuck out to me more (Lord Nafaryus, Begin Again, Losing Faythe, Hymn Of A Thousand Voices), but as the album became familiar enough to where I could see it as one whole experience, it's only gotten better. In my mind it feels as new & captivating the 50th time I listened as it was for the first, & that's not something I can say for most albums (even the ones I consider all-time classics).
The album has its flaws, yes, but I still love it to death. To me it's only a reminder of why DT is my favourite band, & will likely continue to be for as long as they're together. :heart
(Edit: typo)
-
It wouldn't surprise me at all if I learned that TA has been my most played album ever. It's not absolutely drop-dead amazing or anything, but it's probably the album I find the most fun in playing, whether trying to dissect its many ideas or just getting absorbed in its world & characters.
Initially the songs I didn't like stuck out to me more (Lord Nafaryus, Begin Again, Losing Faythe, Hymn Of A Thousand Voices), but as the album became familiar enough to where I could see it as one whole experience, it's only gotten better. In my mind it feels as new & captivating the 50th time I listed as it was for the first, & that's not something I can say for most albums (even the ones I consider all-time classics).
The album has its flaws, yes, but I still love it to death. To me it's only a reminder of why DT is my favourite band, & will likely continue to be for as long as they're together. :heart
I liked Lord Nafaryus instantly. TA definitely was a grower of an album for me. They've achieved what they wanted to achieve with flying colours. That's important to note IMHO. I'll leave it at that.
-
It is one of the albums I love to listen to more often.
Honestly, in the last 5 years I think I never heard anything from Systematic Chaos, Octavarium or ToT (except In the Name of God) while I find myself still enjoying TA a lot.
In very few cases I listen to it from beginning to the end, but once I start I love to lose my self into the TA world at least for half an hour.
The single thing I would have liked them to do, is being e bit more "extreme" in some choices...eg., a couple of minutes of real prog-tango within Lord Nafaryus.
I frankly do not understand all the hate on TA...there are many beautiful melodies, and if you select the heavy and prog pars you would still make a great CD..
But anyway, I'm really glad they made it! Who cares for the haters...
-
Neutrality is a virtue to live by (I like to think it is anyway), the neutral approach was what I went for when TA came out as well (as I always do). I do my best not to hate. (it doesn't always work unfortunately)
-
I made a one disc edited version of this release (lots of intros cut to get more tracks).
I also made an edited two disc version of around 100 minutes (disc one ends with the 'X Factor', disc two starts with 'A New Beginning'... makes sense, right?), old school double album four sides type of thing.
I found myself playing this more as the new album release date neared, and a couple of times since, so as not to burn out from DoT (only three listens so far). I always appreciated the effort behind TA, felt that there were various things where it 'just missed' or needed an extra 'something'. I still feel that way now, but am enjoying it more all these years later.
Maybe because I am grateful that the new album is so damn good.
-
Listened to this again earlier today. The music still sounds amazing to me.
I usually listen to The Astonishing at least once per month. The melodies are still some of the most beautiful things DT's ever done (this comes from someone who passionately loves and listens to movie soundtracks all day long).
I don't listen to it that much. Maybe once every few months. It's very much a mixed bag lyrically for me. The music is just incredible though.
-
I liked the Astonishing when it was released and still do today. Fantastic music and motifs, bogged down by a weak story (with some lame lyrics at times) and excessive run-time.
It contains some of the band's finest music, but they could have easily edited the album down (i.e. too many NOMAC tracks- but those might been added for the purposes of the live show). I feel some of the tangential tunes could have been archived and implemented on another album.
I liked how DT pushed themselves here creatively (even more so than ADOTE or DT) and in many ways consider it the best album of the Mangini era (now eclipsed by Distance Over Time).
Seems like The Astonishing is the band's most polarizing album-- will be interesting to see how its reputation evolves over time.
-
I liked the Astonishing when it was released and still do today. Fantastic music and motifs, bogged down by a weak story (with some lame lyrics at times) and excessive run-time.
It contains some of the bands finest music, but they could have easily edited the album down (i.e. too many NOMAC tracks- but those might been added for the purposes of the live show). I feel some of the tangential tunes could have been archived and implemented on another album.
I liked how DT pushed themselves here creatively (even more so than ADOTE or DT) and in many ways consider it the best album of the Mangini era (now eclipsed by Distance Over Time).
Seems like The Astonishing is the band's most polarizing album-- will be interesting to see how its reputation evolves over time.
Agree 100%. I whittled it down to a 1 CD version which I love. It was a brave and huge undertaking by the band but the main problem was it was too long which stopped some from being able to digest it.
-
A really cool record. It took me awhile to get into it. Probably a year. I finally stopped trying to see it as a DT album that has a story, like SFAM is. The music for SFAM was written before the story was ever thought up. The story was secondary. This is a rock opera where DT is really playing the part of the orchestra. The music is there to guide the story. I think they pulled it off brilliantly. Awesome melodies, lyrics that I can connect with on an emotional level. Especially the love between parent and child with Ahrys and Xander. And with Nefaryus and Faythe. It has a lot of tracks, but I think they all bring something special to the album. It’s one of my very favorite albums.
-
Ahhh Astonishing...
Some great musical ideas, and their heart is obviously in the right place, they just needed to whittle it down to an hour. It suffers from the same issues as Guns N Roses’ Use Your Illusions I and II. Take the best parts, throw out the rest and you have something really golden.
-
I really love the album. I enjoy it most listening to the entire thing, even if it is broke up into 3 or 4 listens. I have a very hard time knowing the individual songs by name, except for Gift of Music, Three Days and a few others, but once I start listening I am always thinking "oh I love this part or can't wait for the part after" I love that they did this and very glad I saw the tour.
-
A really cool record. It took me awhile to get into it. Probably a year. I finally stopped trying to see it as a DT album that has a story, like SFAM is. The music for SFAM was written before the story was ever thought up. The story was secondary. This is a rock opera where DT is really playing the part of the orchestra. The music is there to guide the story. I think they pulled it off brilliantly. Awesome melodies, lyrics that I can connect with on an emotional level. Especially the love between parent and child with Ahrys and Xander. And with Nefaryus and Faythe. It has a lot of tracks, but I think they all bring something special to the album. It’s one of my very favorite albums.
I agree! They wanted to do something different than the classic concept album, more lile something Ayreon or Avantasia would do, and they nailed it. TA is still one of the finest pieces of art they’ve released so far.
-
So I revisited the album once again seeing that I'm playing D/T a lot lately. I have a lot to think about:
First off, I really can't see why the album gets so many criticisms that it isn't a DT sounding album. There may not be overlong tradeoff solos in the album but there are definitely heavier parts in it, and the solos while scarce are pretty amazing. I do have issues with the guitar's tone (It improved greatly on D/T), but as for the music itself, it's professional. All the guys do an amazing job (I did end up wanting more Myung, a request that was luckily granted on D/T), but I have to give a shoutout JLB since he steals the show completely. While I do like to imagine this album with each character sung by a different singer a la Ayreon, if there's one guy who could pull it off while being the same singer is my boy the Pirate. This shit wasn't easy, specially considering you have to change your voice and technique for each of the songs and characters when they talk to each other; yet I did distinguish all of each one of the voice changes he did, and he did an outstanding job at it. While being far from his otherworldly I&W days, this is the best performance James has ever given post-Vocal Injury.
It definitely sounds better as an album. That's a strength that SFAM has over the Astonishing; the songs work as good as individual songs as they do listening the album from start to finish. TA has a lot of repeating melodies that formed together make The Astonishing a great, big song with a lot of reprises and tweaks, which sounds really good when you're giving the album a listen from start to finish; but some of the songs sound really confusing and disoriented when you listen to them alone. While SFAM also features this I feel the songs are stronger as individual ones, each one having their own distinct melody and memorable moments.
While it isn't as good an album as SFAM in my opinion I do think it would work as a play, movie or as a book much better than SFAM. Sure the music is a key part to it but this seems a lot more plot-driven than SFAM, it has more theatrical and dramatic moments as well.
That being said, my main issues with it are with the plot itself. Since they want you to focus more on the plot and lyrics of the album I found that the first act is well-structured and almost all the songs that form it are relevant to set a story; 'A Better Life' may be the one I really didn't care for, but the rest are amazing songs. 'Lord Nafaryus' is one of the albums standouts, as is 'The Gift of Music' and 'Three Days'- 'Ravenskill' is amazing too. Things get way more messy on the second act: it drags on too long. They tried to give depth to each character by making a song for each one of them portraying how they react to everything that happens on pivotal moments, and it's mostly miss (A New Beginning, Chosen, The Road to Revolution) than hit (The X Aspect). I feel that they spent too much time on this and then rushed the third act as a result.
The fact that a lot of the songs are just internal thoughts of each character really slow downs the plot, and for an album that has 34 tracks about a Revolution in a world that forbids music... Not much happens: Guy can sing, tyrant doesn't like him, tyrant's daughter falls in love with him, tyrant's son manipulates Guy's brother to betray him, brother repents and gets killed, tyrant's daughter too; tyrant repents, makes peace, happy ending. Again, this is supposed to be a bigger thing and yet the plot leaves a lot more to be desired. I wanted to know more about the people of ravenskill, whether or not there was some actual physical conflict, how the world came to be as it is, Empress Arabelle.... All that. Guess I have to pick up the book.
There are some songs that could be more relevant to the story given how good they are as songs: 'Begin Again', 'Chosen', 'Moment of Betrayal'; I love these songs and they are standouts of the second disc; but I do think they could be more relevant to the story. There are also songs that signal a very important part of the story yet for some reason I don't feel they are as grandiose or important as they should be: First one of them being 'My Last Farewell' since it comes in such a tragic moment, and the second and most disappointing of all... 'Our New World'. ONW is easily the track I disliked the most of the album. I just can't stand the 'Our new woooorld... Better woooooorld' uninspired chorus.
There are songs in the second and third acts, however, that are both important to the plot and satisfying as songs. These are total jams. 'The Path that Divides' is one of the best songs on the album since it does just that. 'The Walking Shadow' gets a lot of flak here but I fucking love it: The confusion and distortion of the song is what I expect a song to be when there are multiple killings being made :lol. Same with 'Hymn of a Thousand Voices' which is as moving and epic as it should be, the choir parts floored me and the melodies are total killers. I would love to see this in an actual theater play.
All in all, this isn't a bad album. I really, really like it! But it's Dream Theater we're talking here, a band that has set the bar incredibly high in terms of quality all throughout their career. The Astonishing needs a lengthy review of it mostly because of its length and also since it was given so much attention and hype before it was released. The instrumental part delivers: it has some of the most melodic and delightful leads JP and JR have ever written and the vocal work here is masterful; but the songs themselves get weak near the second act and the album doesn't really recover completely in the third. A near perfect start that becomes hit or miss from two-thirds of the album on and ultimately forms an album that is way, way stronger than the sum of its parts. Comparing it to its nearest albums It's way better than DT12, but I find D/T to be a better album, being as good as this one is in terms of musical prowess but with far more creative and memorable songs as well as better lyrics. Even if it's flawed and doesn't get to my top DT albums I applaud JP and JR for tackling this monster of a project and pulling it through (Also thanks for NOT making SFAM II or SDoIT II-This was a unique concept album that stands on its own, very much like the other two concept albums. Thank you so much for that and I hope they keep that up forever). It's definitely better than the first time I heard it, and I'll be sure to hear it more than I had listened to it in the past three years.
-
Good post. I will limit my response to two items.
1. Not sure if I've discussed this topic here, and it has to do with this quote:Again, this is supposed to be a bigger thing and yet the plot leaves a lot more to be desired. I wanted to know more about the people of ravenskill, whether or not there was some actual physical conflict, how the world came to be as it is, Empress Arabelle.... All that. Guess I have to pick up the book.
I am of two minds on this. On one hand, I agree and feel like there needed to be a bit more of that. Not necessarily ALL of those things in great detail. But as I've said before, I feel that there needed to be a bit more on the actual conflict and the loss of life and its impact on the people. Although I intellectually understand the stakes of the conflict, I'm never shown that the stakes are high, so I don't feel the stakes. Show me that the stakes are high so that I feel it!
On the other hand, JP made a conscious artistic choice to set this interpersonal conflict in the midst of this much bigger societal conflict, and to focus on the former rather than the latter, and I think that's actually pretty cool. Not sure whether you saw that John Adams HBO series that was done about 10 years or so again, but it was kind of similar. Although it was set in and around the time of the American Revolution, it didn't show ANY of the iconic military conflicts that were going on. In fact, it showed very little of the fighting at all. Rather, it focused primarily on one family, their interpersonal interactions with one another, and their interpersonal interactions with others. And the focus was more on those interpersonal interactions, how the war impacted them, and how they impacted the war, instead of being on the war itself. TA did the same thing. It was about the people, and how a few individuals could have such a big impact on a bigger conflict and be impacted by the bigger conflict. It's a cool artistic choice, and I respect it.
2. I really don't understand your use of bold font for parts of your opening sentence for each paragraph. Makes no sense to me and, for some reason, I find it to be a bit triggering.
-
1. The John Adams comparison is on point, however I believe it works mainly because there have been other countless representations of the war as a war itself. The personal conflicts come as a nice and innovative take but this is because we already know what is being risked in the war. In TA, we're being introduced to it and it's (At least within the album) the only way for us to know about said conflict.
2. Well it was a long post so I decided to highlight the introductory sentences as some kind of tl;dr for people who didn't want to read the whole thing (I forgot to do it properly in the second paragraph). Sorry bout that :lol
-
Sadly, TA has actually gotten worse with age for me. I listened to it again just after the release of DOT, (well that and all of the DT albums, I've been binging a bit). It is actually cheesier and worse than before. I think the original excitement of having a new DT album, I was trying hard to find songs or reason to like songs just because, as a fan, I have to right? Well nope. It's just a bad album. It did not grow on me.
TA had such potential, and I was super psyched about it. e-mail joining the different sides, not knowing what we'd get. It was exciting. It was supposed to be epic. A double album, lots of characters etc....I thought they'd have different singers (James is terrible at sounding female and it takes you out of the character, and that's on top of terrible story line). I expected more for how we were all set up. I thought this was gonna be big. Different singers, more sonics, more sounds, at least a few heavy dark songs. I almost thought we would to when the Descent Of The Nomacs started and went into Dystopian Overture...for sure, this was it, it was gonna happen...even The Gift Of Music was good, but those lyrics? WTF? But OK, deal with it and move on...but come on it just got worse and worse and completely down the drain.
-
It's just a bad album.
Uh, no, it is most definitely NOT a "bad album." The fact that you don't happen to like it does not make it somehow "bad."
-
It's just a bad album.
Uh, no, it is most definitely NOT a "bad album." The fact that you don't happen to like it does not make it somehow "bad."
You really take all of my posts and words and rip them apart. It's how I feel, and it's a bad album. Just because you like it doesn't make it good.
I hope not to offend Mr Administrator.
-
You really take all of my posts and words and rip them apart.
Then that may be a clue that you aren't wording them very well. It's nothing personal. Until you mentioned it, I didn't even realize I had zeroed in on any of your other posts. But what I can say is that in the one I did just single out, you stated something objectively that is not objective, and you did so in a somewhat offensive way. So, again, you should consider that your posting style might be better received if you were to modify it.
-
You really take all of my posts and words and rip them apart. It's how I feel, and it's a bad album. Just because you like it doesn't make it good.
I hope not to offend Mr Administrator.
It just doesn't make it good for you. There are many albums, countless albums, from various classic bands that people would go gaga over and say best album ever and I honestly don't like those. I don't think I would ever say "just because those people like it doesn't make it a good album," for albums I do not like. Those are just ones that I honestly would not care to listen to again, and that's fair to say regarding an album like The Astonishing (I like it though).
I will reiterate that I would rather have DT do something like play beyond what they think they can do and go for broke (even if I don't like the album in the end) and create something daring like The Astonishing and have some people not like it as much, than create an album that regurgitates what they are known for and it's a copy of a copy of prior classic DT songs without doing anything bold and unexpected. I'm not saying that is the case for Distance Over Time (in fact, I've been reading various comments about it outside of DTF. There's a good vibe about it, and the fact that all five guys are contributing more in the songwriting helps me assure myself that it's not going to be a plain regurgitation) since I haven't heard it yet, but will listen to it once I get through listening to all the DT albums in preparation of their show at the Wiltern Theater in less than two weeks.
-
It just doesn't make it good for you.
It was a counter argument, powerful or not, in response to Mr Administrators subjective interpretation of my subjective feeling....which is of course the point of the OPs post, asking how people feel about TA years later. Nothing more, nothing less.
Back to the topic, you can delete my original post. TA didn't do it for me back in 2016, and listening to it just this week again, it hasn't fared well.
-
The title of this thread should "TA 3 years on" at this point. This album was great out of the gate and has aged well with me. A top tier DT album for sure!
-
Here's a question... Do you think DT will ever revisit this story with new music? Not a whole album, but maybe a song here or there, or even one big epic?
While it was not perfect, I love TA as much as any DT album. I'd love to hear something further one day.
-
I would extremely doubt they would.
Only if they have some sort of Queensryche style break up, where JP leaves and retains the name The Astonishing for his band and forbids Dream Theater from playing it in its entirety.
-
:rollin
-
I would extremely doubt they would.
Only if they have some sort of Queensryche style break up, where JP leaves and retains the name The Astonishing for his band and forbids Dream Theater from playing it in its entirety.
Stop that. Lol
-
3 years later and I still cringe. Actually I’m lying, I haven’t listened to that album in over two years.
-
3 years later and it's still my favorite album of Dream Theaters discography.
-
Ravenskill and The Path That Divides are still in my favourite spotify list.
I admire their effort and this perhaps has the best vocal performance by James and great piano work by Jordan throught the album. I just can't listen it entirely but it has its magic and I love it.
I just wish their concept story was a bit different and the musical approach was not that operatic.
-
I have a ton of respect for them doing something totally different in this phase of their career.
For me it's one one of their albums I barely listen to. There are some songs I really like (A Life Left Behind, Our New World among others) but the story just doesn't grab me and the album feels too long (usually I don't mind albums over 70 minutes).
James really shines on TA but I would have preferred them working with different singers. I love the Our New Word version with Lzzy Hale, the female voices make it more credible for me.
-
So I revisited the album once again seeing that I'm playing D/T a lot lately. I have a lot to think about:
A lot to consider there. Thanks.
-
Well, as a Rush fan, I can say that Roll the bones was a bad album and I think that some Dream Theater's fan can say the same about TA. That does not mean we don't like them anymore. And that does not mean that there are not any good songs in TA. I doubt very much they ever do again that kind of project.
-
Well, as a Rush fan, I can say that Roll the bones was a bad album and I think that some Dream Theater's fan can say the same about TA. That does not mean we don't like them anymore. And that does not mean that there are not any good songs in TA. I doubt very much they ever do again that kind of project.
I'm a Rush and DT fan and I don't think either of those albums are bad. They just went a different direction and didn't quite live up to what the bands are known for.
-
I really enjoy this album. I think it's one of their finest, and it's a shame it didn't go over well with so many fans.
-
I like it, but it's somewhere near the bottom. Partially because there are so many songs and only a few of them are easy for me to listen to. This is normal for me and concept albums. It's like Ayreon's "Theory of Everything" album. I like it, but because of what it is, I find it hard to listen to a random song picked out of the middle. I tend to listen to it when I can do the whole thing in one sitting. It is - after all - a complete story.
For the rest of DT's albums I can put every song from every album on shuffle and not feel as if I am going out of order.
-
When it was released, after a few listens, though I liked it, duet no big interest I stopped listening it for about one year.
Then, suddenly it came, I bought CD and now have no problem to rate it 5/5. :natalieportman:
Beautiful album.
The only objection I have is sound of bass and drums, very weak.
-
Still one of my favorite albums.
1. Kids will actually sing the Dystopian Overture for fun.
2. Yes, I listen to it often from beginning to end.
3. Chosen is so powerful for me. Similar feeling I get with some of the solos in Les Miserables.
4. That solo in The New Beginning is one of my favorites.
5. Moment of Betrayal of course
6. Really love the lyrics for Begin Again
:metal
-
You really take all of my posts and words and rip them apart.
Then that may be a clue that you aren't wording them very well. It's nothing personal. Until you mentioned it, I didn't even realize I had zeroed in on any of your other posts. But what I can say is that in the one I did just single out, you stated something objectively that is not objective, and you did so in a somewhat offensive way. So, again, you should consider that your posting style might be better received if you were to modify it.
Classic example of bosk always having to be right.
-
That is both off topic and baiting. Please keep threads on topic, and if you have a comment about the way the forum is run, take it to PM. Consider this a warning.
-
That is both off topic and baiting. Please keep threads on topic, and if you have a comment about the way the forum is run, take it to PM. Consider this a warning.
Or what? You have absolutely zero power, bosk. You’ve banned me numerous times, and I always come back. There isn’t a damn thing you can do to prevent it.
-
That is both off topic and baiting. Please keep threads on topic, and if you have a comment about the way the forum is run, take it to PM. Consider this a warning.
Or what? You have absolutely zero power, bosk. You’ve banned me numerous times, and I always come back. There isn’t a damn thing you can do to prevent it.
Um...congratulations? So I guess this is "numerous+1" then.
-
Still one of my favorite albums.
2. Yes, I listen to it often from beginning to end.
3. Chosen is so powerful for me.
5. Moment of Betrayal of course
6. Really love the lyrics for Begin Again
:metal
I agree with these. Begin Again had great lyrics about just that beginning a brand new life change. Plus it has that epic ending section.
-
3 years on, to be honest, I have a hard time placing it among the other DT albums. The whole thing is such a connected musical journey, that it's like listening to a soundtrack. The recurring themes and motifs enhance the overall experience, and make it a joy to listen to, but it's hard to think of it as a Rock album, a collection of songs. There are probably 4 or 5 tracks on this album that I'd consider really good stand alone songs, namely A Gift of Music, Brother Can You Hear Me, Moment of Betrayal, Heaven's Cove, and Our New World.
When Your Time Has Come is an interesting case, which kind of exemplifies why it's difficult for me to appreciate a lot of the tracks on this album as their own stand-alone pieces. This is one of my favorite songs by DT ever, and I think in terms of the subject matter, it's almost universal. It feels almost like a sequel to The Spirit Carries On, except that at the end of it, we have a verse from Faythe, which totally distracts from the main subject matter, and while it leads nicely into the next song, it doesn't let this one stand out as its own piece. Neither does the fact that it starts by flowing in from the previous track. For the narrative purposes of the rock opera, it makes sense, and works beautifully, but as a stand alone song, it feels like it's lacking a proper beginning and ending, so I pretty much always have to enjoy it purely within the context of the album as a whole.
That's why it's hard for me to accept The Astonishing as a collection of songs, a rock album by a band, so to speak. To be fair, this is a case with other concept albums for me too. I mean, The Wall is my favorite Pink Floyd album, but I almost exclusively have to enjoy it as one long piece, (or at least two halves), meanwhile, there are only about 3 or 4 songs on it that I enjoy purely on their own merits.
But anyway, bottom line, as far as musically, I still think The Astonishing is absolutely divine. As someone who appreciates good melodies and orchestrations, and isn't just looking for overly fast and complex shredding, for me, there isn't a single boring moment on this whole album.
-
Still my favorite DT album.
-
Well, as a Rush fan, I can say that Roll the bones was a bad album and I think that some Dream Theater's fan can say the same about TA. That does not mean we don't like them anymore. And that does not mean that there are not any good songs in TA. I doubt very much they ever do again that kind of project.
I wouldn't say Roll The Bones as a whole was bad at all, maybe a few songs. I love just about any song from that album that was played live, except for maybe Ghost of a Chance.
-
The Astonishing didn't age well with me at all. It started out in my bottom three DT albums and if anything it has solidified a spot in the bottom two over time. There are some moments I thoroughly enjoy but I could count them on one hand.
I appreciate what the band was going for, the work that was put into it, and the risk they took, it's just not for me. Maybe some day it'll grow on me (like FII did after maybe 10 or 12 years) but for the time being I can't bring myself to listen to it very much at all.
-
Well, as a Rush fan, I can say that Roll the bones was a bad album and I think that some Dream Theater's fan can say the same about TA. That does not mean we don't like them anymore. And that does not mean that there are not any good songs in TA. I doubt very much they ever do again that kind of project.
I wouldn't say Roll The Bones as a whole was bad at all, maybe a few songs. I love just about any song from that album that was played live, except for maybe Ghost of a Chance.
Roll the bones is their softest album ever. Even today, I think is more like a pop rock album. And what happened? Their next effort, Counterparts, came with a totally different approach. Much more heavy, bass and guitars sounds way different. Kind of what DT did with their new album. If Rush would have kept going with a sound and style like Roll The Bones, I would have stepped out for some time.
-
Roll the bones is their softest album ever. Even today, I think is more like a pop rock album. And what happened? Their next effort, Counterparts, came with a totally different approach. Much more heavy, bass and guitars sounds way different. Kind of what DT did with their new album. If Rush would have kept going with a sound and style like Roll The Bones, I would have stepped out for some time.
Roll The Bones was great. But I think they changed their direction because they always tried to stay modern and contemporary, and at the time Counterparts came out, the contemporary thing was Grunge, so it was the perfect opportunity for them to start playing heavier music again. Either way, both great albums on their own merits, IMO.
-
I love Roll the Bones. Part of it is that it came out right when I was getting into Rush, but it's just a fun record. Even the 2-3 average tunes sound fine when listening to the album from start to finish. I wouldn't have wanted every Rush record to sound like that, but they did an excellent job with it at the time.
-
I liked RTB's too. Solid album. :tup
-
Well, as a Rush fan, I can say that Roll the bones was a bad album and I think that some Dream Theater's fan can say the same about TA. That does not mean we don't like them anymore. And that does not mean that there are not any good songs in TA. I doubt very much they ever do again that kind of project.
I wouldn't say Roll The Bones as a whole was bad at all, maybe a few songs. I love just about any song from that album that was played live, except for maybe Ghost of a Chance.
Roll the bones is their softest album ever. Even today, I think is more like a pop rock album. And what happened? Their next effort, Counterparts, came with a totally different approach. Much more heavy, bass and guitars sounds way different. Kind of what DT did with their new album. If Rush would have kept going with a sound and style like Roll The Bones, I would have stepped out for some time.
Might be "soft" as you say, but I don't think it makes it bad.
But even so Rush never made the same album twice.
-
Before saying anything else, I have to say I know JP hates medleys (or so I've heard) and that they were pretty much a Portnoy thing to do, so I know this probably won't happen, ever. Even I'm not a big fan of medleys to begin with, just play the whole song and not small fragmets of many songs.
Having said that, what if, for fun, we imagine the scenario where DT are no longer celebrating the SFAM anniversary on tour and decided to include a TA medley on their set: what would it include? I imagine a 20+ minute thing would suffice. I'd like to give it a try, but I certainly don't have the audio editing skills to pull that off.
-
Before saying anything else, I have to say I know JP hates medleys (or so I've heard) and that they were pretty much a Portnoy thing to do, so I know this probably won't happen, ever. Even I'm not a big fan of medleys to begin with, just play the whole song and not small fragmets of many songs.
Having said that, what if, for fun, we imagine the scenario where DT are no longer celebrating the SFAM anniversary on tour and decided to include a TA medley on their set: what would it include? I imagine a 20+ minute thing would suffice. I'd like to give it a try, but I certainly don't have the audio editing skills to pull that off.
He does "hate" them. But that said, that doesn't mean DT will never do one. He has changed his mind about a lot of things over time. If he felt like it was a good idea to do one for whatever reason, I'm sure he would, even though he generally doesn't like them.
-
Before saying anything else, I have to say I know JP hates medleys (or so I've heard) and that they were pretty much a Portnoy thing to do, so I know this probably won't happen, ever. Even I'm not a big fan of medleys to begin with, just play the whole song and not small fragmets of many songs.
Having said that, what if, for fun, we imagine the scenario where DT are no longer celebrating the SFAM anniversary on tour and decided to include a TA medley on their set: what would it include? I imagine a 20+ minute thing would suffice. I'd like to give it a try, but I certainly don't have the audio editing skills to pull that off.
He does "hate" them. But that said, that doesn't mean DT will never do one. He has changed his mind about a lot of things over time. If he felt like it was a good idea to do one for whatever reason, I'm sure he would, even though he generally doesn't like them.
I definitely get where that comes from. I can only imagine how uncomfortable it was for him every time Portnoy went to them like "Hey, guys, I have an idea for another medley of songs! And guess what? I'm going to do this crazy scream on the Octavarium Razor's Edge part, you're all gonna love it!" :lol :facepalm:
-
Before saying anything else, I have to say I know JP hates medleys (or so I've heard) and that they were pretty much a Portnoy thing to do, so I know this probably won't happen, ever. Even I'm not a big fan of medleys to begin with, just play the whole song and not small fragmets of many songs.
Having said that, what if, for fun, we imagine the scenario where DT are no longer celebrating the SFAM anniversary on tour and decided to include a TA medley on their set: what would it include? I imagine a 20+ minute thing would suffice. I'd like to give it a try, but I certainly don't have the audio editing skills to pull that off.
He does "hate" them. But that said, that doesn't mean DT will never do one. He has changed his mind about a lot of things over time. If he felt like it was a good idea to do one for whatever reason, I'm sure he would, even though he generally doesn't like them.
I definitely get where that comes from. I can only imagine how uncomfortable it was for him every time Portnoy went to them like "Hey, guys, I have an idea for another medley of songs! And guess what? I'm going to do this crazy scream on the Octavarium Razor's Edge part, you're all gonna love it!" :lol :facepalm:
I know I loved it :lol
I'd like to see a TA medley, but it's just not happening.
-
No need to do a medley, just play 3-4 songs in a row from it (that does not make it a medley). I'll be surprised if it ever happens, though.
-
I wouldn't be surprised.
They are officially known as The Anniversary Band, aren't they? At some point TA will cycle 10 years.
-
I'm generally not a fan of medleys, but when I saw Haken (sorry bosk) on their 10th anniversary tour, they did a medley of the songs from their first album which was fantastic. I think the main reason it worked so well is because Aquarius is a concept album so it was basically a "long story short" version of that story. I think if DT ever did a medley of TA or maybe SFAM (way down the line obviously) it could be really cool. Once again, I wouldn't be saying this if I hadn't seen how well Haken was able to do it.
-
I'm generally not a fan of medleys, but when I saw Haken (sorry bosk) on their 10th anniversary tour, they did a medley of the songs from their first album which was fantastic. I think the main reason it worked so well is because Aquarius is a concept album so it was basically a "long story short" version of that story. I think if DT ever did a medley of TA or maybe SFAM (way down the line obviously) it could be really cool. Once again, I wouldn't be saying this if I hadn't seen how well Haken was able to do it.
I think a TA medley would work very well, specially considering one of the main complaints people have about it is that it's too long. It most likely will never happen, though, as we know JP dislikes them (and I do too, when they're just a bunch of random songs connected in a weird way). Concept album medleys are different because the songs usually share many themes and melodies, so it's easier to connect the songs and the transitions are smoother, but I still think Petrucci has no intentions on doing that.
-
One thing I've always asked myself about the album (and I still do now actually) is: Given that this one took them the longest to record (9 months give or take), why is the music so comparatively simple and non-technical (exceptions apply and yes I know it's a musical and all that and it does what musicals are supposed to do to people)? ADTOE and DT12 took them 5 months to write and record and they both have a lot more parts that are rather difficult to play.
-
One thing I've always asked myself about the album (and I still do now actually) is: Given that this one took them the longest to record (9 months give or take), why is the music so comparatively simple and non-technical (exceptions apply and yes I know it's a musical and all that and it does what musicals are supposed to do to people)? ADTOE and DT12 took them 5 months to write and record and they both have a lot more parts that are rather difficult to play.
I think the simple answer is its length. Even if it's more simple music, 2 hours is a lot - especially when a lot of it is venturing outside DT's comfort zone.
Besides that, the music was written by only JP & JR, so they may have spent some amount of time communicating their ideas to the other members - especially with James, as I'd imagine the characters would require a fair bit of voice direction.
-
One thing I've always asked myself about the album (and I still do now actually) is: Given that this one took them the longest to record (9 months give or take), why is the music so comparatively simple and non-technical (exceptions apply and yes I know it's a musical and all that and it does what musicals are supposed to do to people)? ADTOE and DT12 took them 5 months to write and record and they both have a lot more parts that are rather difficult to play.
I think it's scope and length are so much bigger, especially with all of the extras.
I didn't realize there was a correlation between technical playing and recording time.
-
It’s much more than just which albums are more technically challenging than others to perform. TA is the biggest thing they’ve ever done. There’s layers upon layers of instruments, effects, etc. They had to record an orchestra and a choir, to the point that they said some songs had more than 100 tracks to mix. The writing also took longer because they were creating the music simultaneously with and for the story, and it takes a lot of time to write something as complex as that. And they’re Dream Theater, it’s probably much easier for them to make a super technical wank fest with a chorus and call it a song, but rather they focused on songwriting and storytelling. That’s the beauty of TA.
-
One thing I've always asked myself about the album (and I still do now actually) is: Given that this one took them the longest to record (9 months give or take), why is the music so comparatively simple and non-technical (exceptions apply and yes I know it's a musical and all that and it does what musicals are supposed to do to people)? ADTOE and DT12 took them 5 months to write and record and they both have a lot more parts that are rather difficult to play.
I think it's scope and length are so much bigger, especially with all of the extras.
I didn't realize there was a correlation between technical playing and recording time.
There may actually not be. My post simply was describing what I observed. The length aspect makes sense though. (Gabriel's observation about the mixing time as well, I simply forgot about that aspect.) And please keep in mind that this is not a slight on the album in any way. They achieved what they wanted to achieve and with flying colours. (pun not intended)
-
I'm generally not a fan of medleys, but when I saw Haken (sorry bosk) on their 10th anniversary tour, they did a medley of the songs from their first album which was fantastic. I think the main reason it worked so well is because Aquarius is a concept album so it was basically a "long story short" version of that story. I think if DT ever did a medley of TA or maybe SFAM (way down the line obviously) it could be really cool. Once again, I wouldn't be saying this if I hadn't seen how well Haken was able to do it.
I think a TA medley would work very well, specially considering one of the main complaints people have about it is that it's too long. It most likely will never happen, though, as we know JP dislikes them (and I do too, when they're just a bunch of random songs connected in a weird way). Concept album medleys are different because the songs usually share many themes and melodies, so it's easier to connect the songs and the transitions are smoother, but I still think Petrucci has no intentions on doing that.
I wouldn't assume it will never happen. Yeah, he doesn't like medleys. But in my opinion, you are right about it making sense to mash up some of these smaller songs into an "Astonishing suite" or something like that. If JP and the band feel like it makes sense at some point, I wouldn't assume that JP's dislike of medleys would hold them back from doing it.
-
I'm generally not a fan of medleys, but when I saw Haken (sorry bosk) on their 10th anniversary tour, they did a medley of the songs from their first album which was fantastic. I think the main reason it worked so well is because Aquarius is a concept album so it was basically a "long story short" version of that story. I think if DT ever did a medley of TA or maybe SFAM (way down the line obviously) it could be really cool. Once again, I wouldn't be saying this if I hadn't seen how well Haken was able to do it.
I think a TA medley would work very well, specially considering one of the main complaints people have about it is that it's too long. It most likely will never happen, though, as we know JP dislikes them (and I do too, when they're just a bunch of random songs connected in a weird way). Concept album medleys are different because the songs usually share many themes and melodies, so it's easier to connect the songs and the transitions are smoother, but I still think Petrucci has no intentions on doing that.
I wouldn't assume it will never happen. Yeah, he doesn't like medleys. But in my opinion, you are right about it making sense to mash up some of these smaller songs into an "Astonishing suite" or something like that. If JP and the band feel like it makes sense at some point, I wouldn't assume that JP's dislike of medleys would hold them back from doing it.
Maybe they need someone from here to suggest that to them? ;)
-
They could just play Dystopian Overture if they wanted to cover a lot of TA's themes in one song.
-
I think it worth noting as well that if they did decide to do 3-5 TA songs in a row at shows, that doesn't make it a medley, at least in the sense of the kind JP dislikes. I think of a medley as a bunch of songs played together in abridged form, and Rush doing that occasionally back in the day is what made Petrucci dislike medleys. If they played 3-5 songs in a row in full from TA, it is a not a medley, it would just be them playing 3-5 songs in a row from the same album, like they did on the Along for the Ride tour when they played 5 songs in a row from Awake and then 4 in a row from Scenes.
-
I would love it if they did that, but I'm having a hard time figuring out which streak of songs would work well without making you crave for more. Maybe The X aspect, A New beginning and The Road to revolution.
-
Did The Astonishing hurt them as a brand at all? or slow some of their momentum?
I don't have any significant issues with the TA, but I know I didn't buy it day one and I definitely didn't go see that tour, but despite that I did buy D/T on day one and went to go see this tour.
-
Given the general reaction to this album (which is much more negative than this forum implies), I can't see more than one or two songs popping up in each setlist over the years. I don't mind the album (its ok but deeply flawed), but I can't imagine it would go down particularly well if they played 4-5 songs in a row...
-
Did The Astonishing hurt them as a brand at all? or slow some of their momentum?
I doubt it. Not significantly, anyway. I think, if anything connected to TA, the way the second leg of the tour was booked slowed their momentum. But when you look at them doing the I&W tour right after, and now this album, I don't think it really had much of any long-term effect. And when established bands have a one-album "tangent" where they do something uber creative that differs from the norm, but then go back to the status quo that the fans love, you don't generally see any real falloff in terms of popularity.
-
Did The Astonishing hurt them as a brand at all? or slow some of their momentum?
I doubt it. Not significantly, anyway. I think, if anything connected to TA, the way the second leg of the tour was booked slowed their momentum. But when you look at them doing the I&W tour right after, and now this album, I don't think it really had much of any long-term effect. And when established bands have a one-album "tangent" where they do something uber creative that differs from the norm, but then go back to the status quo that the fans love, you don't generally see any real falloff in terms of popularity.
Yea, seems like whatever slow or hurt they might have had has recovered with D/T and tour. It seems like D/T tour has been the most successful since I've been a fan. At least from my perspective.
-
Focus on Metal -- www.focusonmetal.net, one of my favorite podcasts, interviewed Jordan earlier in the year, and posted the interview a few weeks back. In it, Jordan was asked what album does he think is the most underappreciated, and he was pretty straightforward that it was The Astonishing. He understood why, and that they basically set themselves up for that, but thinks in time it'll be better appreciated. I think that was the gist of it (I listened to the podcast this morning).
-
I wish he were right, but I doubt he will be. The Astonishing is so long that I doubt the people who really do not like it will decide years later to give a 2-hour album they didn't like in the first place any kind of attention.
-
I wish he were right, but I doubt he will be. The Astonishing is so long that I doubt the people who really do not like it will decide years later to give a 2-hour album they didn't like in the first place any kind of attention.
There's actually a lot of music I really disliked back in the day that I came around on. I used to hate more Beetles songs than I liked, now it's the complete opposite.
-
I can think of several albums that I *hated* when I first listened to them, but then they later became some of my favorite albums of all time. Ride the Lightning leaps immediately to mind. But there are others.
But I also get that the length of the album does get in the way.
-
I didn't like SDOIT at first and it became my favorite. TA is a far cry from SDOIT, but I have learned to appreciate quite a few tracks on TA even though I still don't like it much overall.
BTW, isn't TA more than 3 years on now? Oh yeah, Kotowboy isn't here anymore to change the thread title. :'(
-
Damn it's really been 3 years since this album was released? It's still my least favorite DT album but I do enjoy listening to some of it from time to time.
-
More than 3 years later and I still love it. Wish I could listen to it more often, though, it's a bit too long to just sit and listen to the whole thing from start to finish.
-
I wouldn't be surprised.
They are officially known as The Anniversary Band, aren't they? At some point TA will cycle 10 years.
The 10th anniversary Nursing Home tour! :lol
-
For the first time in about a year - maybe more - I listened to The Astonishing. Honestly, I was kind of blown away. Some of the music on that record is pretty amazing. I am really bummed that they didn't film a live show. What a memento that would have been!
-
For the first time in about a year - maybe more - I listened to The Astonishing. Honestly, I was kind of blown away. Some of the music on that record is pretty amazing. I am really bummed that they didn't film a live show. What a memento that would have been!
You're not the only one who is bummed.....
-
I said that many times already
-
For the first time in about a year - maybe more - I listened to The Astonishing. Honestly, I was kind of blown away. Some of the music on that record is pretty amazing. I am really bummed that they didn't film a live show. What a memento that would have been!
I'm not a big fan of this album but it's kind of a shame they couldn't put out a DVD or live album. The Astonishing will most likely never be performed again live...at least not by Dream Theater.
-
I can understand why they didn't release a DVD of this show.
Let's face it, outside of this forum it's not exactly the most popular album, and putting out a live DVD with just the album played note-for-note with no extended bits, no live embellishments of the story and no extra songs seems redundant to me. If it was a popular album, I can kind of understand it, but given the reception of the album it doesn't make much sense business wise to do this.
(As I side note, I do *like* the album - it just feels a bit underdeveloped story-wise and musically to me, as I've mentioned elsewhere.)
-
I can understand why they didn't release a DVD of this show.
Let's face it, outside of this forum it's not exactly the most popular album, and putting out a live DVD with just the album played note-for-note with no extended bits, no live embellishments of the story and no extra songs seems redundant to me. If it was a popular album, I can kind of understand it, but given the reception of the album it doesn't make much sense business wise to do this.
(As I side note, I do *like* the album - it just feels a bit underdeveloped story-wise and musically to me, as I've mentioned elsewhere.)
If they released it with the Visuals as a bonus, I'd buy it.
-
For the first time in about a year - maybe more - I listened to The Astonishing. Honestly, I was kind of blown away. Some of the music on that record is pretty amazing. I am really bummed that they didn't film a live show. What a memento that would have been!
I truly like this release knowing full well that it is covering very different ground than their usual music although there are overlapping songs with prior material stylistically. Even though the story is a bit corny, what theater arts type of musical isn't? I just appreciated that a band as talented as DT would even try to do something that might be on Broadway someday. When Queen's music was adapted to the stage play "We Will Rock You", that turned out quite well for the band so I am hoping that The Astonishing does eventually get a stage play release. I agree with others that it is a shame they didn't do a live release of this. I would buy it in a heartbeat. There is a LOT of good music and LaBrie is at the top of his game on this.
-
I can understand why they didn't release a DVD of this show.
Let's face it, outside of this forum it's not exactly the most popular album, and putting out a live DVD with just the album played note-for-note with no extended bits, no live embellishments of the story and no extra songs seems redundant to me. If it was a popular album, I can kind of understand it, but given the reception of the album it doesn't make much sense business wise to do this.
(As I side note, I do *like* the album - it just feels a bit underdeveloped story-wise and musically to me, as I've mentioned elsewhere.)
If they released it with the Visuals as a bonus, I'd buy it.
Agreed 100%. The visuals would have made the live release worth it.
For the first time in about a year - maybe more - I listened to The Astonishing. Honestly, I was kind of blown away. Some of the music on that record is pretty amazing. I am really bummed that they didn't film a live show. What a memento that would have been!
I truly like this release knowing full well that it is covering very different ground than their usual music although there are overlapping songs with prior material stylistically. Even though the story is a bit corny, what theater arts type of musical isn't? I just appreciated that a band as talented as DT would even try to do something that might be on Broadway someday. When Queen's music was adapted to the stage play "We Will Rock You", that turned out quite well for the band so I am hoping that The Astonishing does eventually get a stage play release. I agree with others that it is a shame they didn't do a live release of this. I would buy it in a heartbeat. There is a LOT of good music and LaBrie is at the top of his game on this.
It definitely feels less like a conventional concept album and more like a musical soundtrack, at least to me. And that's a bit weird coming from the band that wrote Train of Thought, but that's also what it means to truly be progressive.
-
For the first time in about a year - maybe more - I listened to The Astonishing. Honestly, I was kind of blown away. Some of the music on that record is pretty amazing. I am really bummed that they didn't film a live show. What a memento that would have been!
The 'bummer' about this album (for me at least) is I have to listen to it all at once. There aren't many if any songs on there I just jump to listen to. It's an 'all or nothing' listen for me. Last time I listened to it was driving home from our vacation last summer. It has some incredible music on it.
That being said....it still remains pretty much a middle of the road album for me. It's a 'right time/right mood' listen.
BUT....seeing this live was freaking INCREDIBLE!!! I think this album was custom made for a live performance. It was SO good....SO amazing to see. It really is a crime that it wasn't filmed for a BluRay release.
-
So I was listening to Shadow Gallery's Tyranny last week, and it really reminded me a lot of The Astonishing. I found the pacing very similar with rocking tunes and piano intro mellower songs going back and forth.
-
So I was listening to Shadow Gallery's Tyranny last week, and it really reminded me a lot of The Astonishing. I found the pacing very similar with rocking tunes and piano intro mellower songs going back and forth.
:lol :lol
(https://tenor.com/view/shame-shame-shame-game-of-thrones-gif-12221503)
-
Why is that funny?
-
It is just is, and it is probably best not to infect this thread with any more talk about Shadow Gallery.
-
Does anybody think like me that the "Astonishing" story was heavily influenced by "Games of thrones" TV series?
"The astonishing" came out in 2016, while Games of thrones was on its sixth season.
-
Does anybody think like me that the "Astonishing" story was heavily influenced by "Games of thrones" TV series?
"The astonishing" came out in 2016, while Games of thrones was on its sixth season.
JP said that GOT was one of the main influences for TA.
-
Redid my abridged version of The Astonishing:
Gift of Music
Better Life
Savior in the Square
When Your Time Has Come
Three Days
Ravenskill
A Tempting Offer
A New Beginning
Moment of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell
Our New World
Astonishing
Not interested in the story so I didn't care on what songs to cut that were relevant to it. I think I chose the rocking songs from the album. I feel that Moment of Betrayal could work well in their current setlist.
-
I'm listening to the album all the way through and I finally get A New Beginning...
The music reflects Faythes nervousness, and her desire to convince her Father to meet with Gabriel before going to War with Ravenskill. That is until Arabelle blurts out how Nafaryus once had those same desires as his daughter, "Remember, Bug?" Then, the music changes from a nervousness hectic sound into a more Excited, Ecstatic, hecticness. The instrumental outro and guitar solo makes me think of Nafaryus sitting on his throne pondering the decision.
-
Is The Answer the shortest full band Dream Theater song ?
Also - just a reminder that I actually purchased the FOUR LP BOXSET version of this album :-)
-
Also - just a reminder that I actually purchased the FOUR LP BOXSET version of this album :-)
I don't have that. But I do have the box set that has the "script" and the NOMAC action figurrrrrrrrrrrr.
-
• How did you feel about it a year go ?
I felt like it was one of the weaker but more ambitious albums.
• How do you fell about it now ?
I think it is clearly and definitively their worst album.
-
• How did you feel about it a year go ?
I felt like it was one of the weaker but more ambitious albums.
• How do you fell about it now ?
I think it is clearly and definitively their worst album.
I still love it every time I listen. I like to listen to the whole thing though and so I don't do it that often. I have one of the songs as a ringtone for my son.
-
Also - just a reminder that I actually purchased the FOUR LP BOXSET version of this album :-)
I don't have that. But I do have the box set that has the "script" and the NOMAC action figurrrrrrrrrrrr.
I want to put it on a motor and a string and hang it up. Like those Ghost Halloween decorations that moan and move. But then knowing me I'll drop it.
-
• How did you feel about it a year go ?
I felt like it was one of the weaker but more ambitious albums.
• How do you fell about it now ?
I think it is clearly and definitively their worst album.
I don't remember if I previously responded in this thread, but my take is fairly similar. I was intrigued by the concept and even signed up for the Empire or the Rebellion (I don't remember which). After it came out, I tried to get through it a few times but couldn't. For the longest time, I wouldn't include it in any album rankings because I didn't fee I had given it a fair shake. Part of the problem for me is that it's hard for me to find 2:10 to just sit and listen through an album. I've now gotten to the point where I think that it's just not all that good. It has moments. There's a very Dregs-like song somewhere towards the end of the first disc or early on the second that I like a lot, and A New Beginning is pretty good, but that's about it. There is a HUGE amount of sameness on the album, and having James voice all of the characters just doesn't work because it's nearly impossible to keep track of who's who, and I recall the lyrics booklet being rather difficult to read, so that doesn't help.
So, for me, it has usurped the bottom spot on my DT album rankings from FII or SC.
-
Other than the issue of rarely having time due to length, I have never felt any of those other things were a problem.
-
I still give TA a listen at least once a month. I still think it's DT's best album.
-
I still give TA a listen at least once a month. I still think it's DT's best album.
Completely agree! I gave FII a spin the other day and I found it hard to get through and I really like the songs. I don't think people understand or appreciate what it takes to write an Opera.
-
I still give TA a listen at least once a month. I still think it's DT's best album.
Completely agree! I gave FII a spin the other day and I found it hard to get through and I really like the songs. I don't think people understand or appreciate what it takes to write an Opera.
Hold on a second...are you suggesting that those of us who don't think highly of TA lack an understanding and appreciation of the effort they put into writing and producing it? Can't one have an appreciation and understanding but not enjoy it? I thoroughly understand the effort that JP and JR undoubtedly put into writing TA and that the band put into producing it. But I don't enjoy it. It's as simple as that.
-
I still give TA a listen at least once a month. I still think it's DT's best album.
Just listened to it in full....all at once.....on a road trip for my new job. I think that's the way to do it, it's really best as an 'all in' listen. That's why the concert was so freaking awesome as well.
It's so choc full of great music. I'm utterly blown away by MM's drumming in it as well. If you just hone in on him and listen to what he's doing it's pretty incredible. It goes without saying that JP/JR are amazing as well and for JM to keep up with them and compliment them it's impressive as well. JLB does a great job at the different characters and sounds good.....and when he sang it live he sounded great also.
But it really is a divider of fans. I personally wouldn't say it's their 'best' album ever......but it's a remarkable piece of work that surely is worthy of praise.
-
I still give TA a listen at least once a month. I still think it's DT's best album.
Completely agree! I gave FII a spin the other day and I found it hard to get through and I really like the songs. I don't think people understand or appreciate what it takes to write an Opera.
Hold on a second...are you suggesting that those of us who don't think highly of TA lack an understanding and appreciation of the effort they put into writing and producing it? Can't one have an appreciation and understanding but not enjoy it? I thoroughly understand the effort that JP and JR undoubtedly put into writing TA and that the band put into producing it. But I don't enjoy it. It's as simple as that.
Yeah - pretty much.
But I don't mean that in a denigrating way. I actually grew up in a period where musicals and operas were the theme of the day. Did you?
For example, with Hamilton, we've actually seen a renaissance in operatic activity but with rap music. TA has some exceptional moments that make this the very definition of what it means to be Dream Theater. Frankly, if you have an appreciation for something, you're enjoying it at SOME level. It's as complicated as that.
-
I still give TA a listen at least once a month. I still think it's DT's best album.
Completely agree! I gave FII a spin the other day and I found it hard to get through and I really like the songs. I don't think people understand or appreciate what it takes to write an Opera.
Hold on a second...are you suggesting that those of us who don't think highly of TA lack an understanding and appreciation of the effort they put into writing and producing it? Can't one have an appreciation and understanding but not enjoy it? I thoroughly understand the effort that JP and JR undoubtedly put into writing TA and that the band put into producing it. But I don't enjoy it. It's as simple as that.
Yeah - pretty much.
Sorry, but that's just beyond absurd.
But I don't mean that in a denigrating way. I actually grew up in a period where musicals and operas were the theme of the day. Did you?
I'll be happy to answer that question if you explain what you mean by "grew up in a period where musicals and operas were the theme of the day." I assume you grew up sometime in the last 50 or so years and aren't a time traveler who grew up in the early 1800s. Right?
For example, with Hamilton, we've actually seen a renaissance in operatic activity but with rap music.
Uh huh...and Hamilton won the 2016 Tony Award for best musical. It was followed in 2017 by Dear Evan Hansen. I've seen both. I think Hamilton is phenomenally overrated, and I thought Dear Evan Hansen was just meh. But, in any event, before Hamilton, we had stuff like Kinky Boots, The Book of Mormon, Billy Elliot, Jersey Boys, Spamalot, The Lion King, Phantom of the Opera and Les Miserables. Some of those I like, some I LOVE, and some I don't care for. But I understand and appreciate the effort that went into all of them. But you're saying that's impossible because, if you understand and appreciate the effort that went into something, you MUST like it???
TA has some exceptional moments that make this the very definition of what it means to be Dream Theater.
As someone who's been a Dream Theater fan since 1992, I feel pretty confident I know "what it means to be Dream Theater." The Astonishing is certainly something that one might expect from DT and, while I agree that it "has some exceptional moments" (but not many), I ultimately don't enjoy it all that much. Much like Dear Evan Hansen, it's just kinda meh. And just like DEH, I fully understand and appreciate the effort that went into writing and producing TA.
Frankly, if you have an appreciation for something, you're enjoying it at SOME level. It's as complicated as that.
I completely disagree.
-
I still give TA a listen at least once a month. I still think it's DT's best album.
Hear hear, it's almost too good. It's been hard for me to appreciate DoT when the previous album was an epic opera. If DoT was the successor to DT12, I'd probably think much more highly of it
-
The albums not aging very well for me. I kinda liked some of it at first but nowadays I almost completely avoid it. It's DT's worst album by a large margin.
-
Yeah - pretty much.
But I don't mean that in a denigrating way. I actually grew up in a period where musicals and operas were the theme of the day. Did you?
For example, with Hamilton, we've actually seen a renaissance in operatic activity but with rap music. TA has some exceptional moments that make this the very definition of what it means to be Dream Theater. Frankly, if you have an appreciation for something, you're enjoying it at SOME level. It's as complicated as that.
Oh, I understand it fine, and I like musicals a lot. I just don't think this is a good album, either as a musical, or as an rock album. I could list over a dozen reasons for this, but I don't want to be accused of "bashing" the band, so I just hope you'll trust me instead of insisting that I just don't "get it" :lol
-
Last time I listened to it was actually seeing it live in NYC, Radio City Music Hall, April 2016. By far my least favorite DT album.
-
Yeah - pretty much.
But I don't mean that in a denigrating way. I actually grew up in a period where musicals and operas were the theme of the day. Did you?
For example, with Hamilton, we've actually seen a renaissance in operatic activity but with rap music. TA has some exceptional moments that make this the very definition of what it means to be Dream Theater. Frankly, if you have an appreciation for something, you're enjoying it at SOME level. It's as complicated as that.
Oh, I understand it fine, and I like musicals a lot. I just don't think this is a good album, either as a musical, or as an rock album. I could list over a dozen reasons for this, but I don't want to be accused of "bashing" the band, so I just hope you'll trust me instead of insisting that I just don't "get it" :lol
You kidding - your sig pic is Godzilla. That counts for something. ;D
-
I still love the album, it has become a top 3 album for me. I rarely can listen to it in its entirety but I usually listen 5-7 songs at a time.
-
I still give TA a listen at least once a month. I still think it's DT's best album.
Completely agree! I gave FII a spin the other day and I found it hard to get through and I really like the songs. I don't think people understand or appreciate what it takes to write an Opera.
I get that you're defending the band and all but...
The effort one makes to produce a work of art has precisely nothing to do with the artistic quality of said work of art. It's utterly irrelevant.
An album like this was always going to divide the fan base because it's a pretty major detour for this band, stylistically speaking. For me, the story is...not very compelling. That's probably because it's grounded in reality and I always felt there was a weird disconnect between the extremely serious sounding music and the lyrics, which I can only describe as...mostly not too great.
-
For me, the story is...not very compelling. That's probably because it's grounded in reality and I always felt there was a weird disconnect between the extremely serious sounding music and the lyrics, which I can only describe as...mostly not too great.
JP's not really that great of a lyricist and it's why, I feel, he went to the lengths he did in trying to convey the story.
If you want to get into the story, I recommend the book.
I applaud JP for bringing us this story. It's one that needs to be done in a theater show with an orchestra, choir and different vocalists to really have that full effect. And one I really hope he gets to do one day. And why I feel it should've been released as John Petrucci presents The Astonishing performed by Dream Theater.
-
For me, the story is...not very compelling. That's probably because it's grounded in reality and I always felt there was a weird disconnect between the extremely serious sounding music and the lyrics, which I can only describe as...mostly not too great.
How do you mean? I'd never heard that before.
-
I think they did such a great job of building up the album, but they dropped the ball after its release. I remember they made a website about which faction you were, sent out cryptic message/emails, etc. and they should've hired someone to do more in that vein to continue through the life-cycle of the album.
I haven't listened to it in awhile, but that's mainly because I've been exploring a lot of other stuff. I'd easily rank it in my top 5 favorite DT albums and wish more bands that far into their career would try something so ambitious. The fact that it's so heavily disliked makes me actually appreciate it more. Plus, I just think the music absolutely kicks ass and I can ignore the story-line so that's not any sort of detractor of my enjoyment.
-
I still give TA a listen at least once a month. I still think it's DT's best album.
Completely agree! I gave FII a spin the other day and I found it hard to get through and I really like the songs. I don't think people understand or appreciate what it takes to write an Opera.
Hold on a second...are you suggesting that those of us who don't think highly of TA lack an understanding and appreciation of the effort they put into writing and producing it? Can't one have an appreciation and understanding but not enjoy it? I thoroughly understand the effort that JP and JR undoubtedly put into writing TA and that the band put into producing it. But I don't enjoy it. It's as simple as that.
Yeah - pretty much.
But I don't mean that in a denigrating way. I actually grew up in a period where musicals and operas were the theme of the day. Did you?
For example, with Hamilton, we've actually seen a renaissance in operatic activity but with rap music. TA has some exceptional moments that make this the very definition of what it means to be Dream Theater. Frankly, if you have an appreciation for something, you're enjoying it at SOME level. It's as complicated as that.
Wow. Arrogant much?
-
I guess JP could spend the rest of his career recording boring albums like Terminal Velocity and be successful (if he always could have MP on drums, that's for sure). But luckily he is restless enough to do multiple things, including a "DT-esque musical."
That is why I like him. :biggrin:
-
For me, the story is...not very compelling. That's probably because it's grounded in reality and I always felt there was a weird disconnect between the extremely serious sounding music and the lyrics, which I can only describe as...mostly not too great.
JP's not really that great of a lyricist and it's why, I feel, he went to the lengths he did in trying to convey the story.
If you want to get into the story, I recommend the book.
I applaud JP for bringing us this story. It's one that needs to be done in a theater show with an orchestra, choir and different vocalists to really have that full effect. And one I really hope he gets to do one day. And why I feel it should've been released as John Petrucci presents The Astonishing performed by Dream Theater.
Oh, I definitely applaud Petrucci as well for branching out like this and trying something a little different. I have nothing but huge respect for all of them, but especially for John because I know what it's like to put yourself out there like this and it's not easy. And criticism can be hard to deal with, hard not to take personally. Which is why I always try to avoid using words and phrases like "it sucks" because honestly, I don't think Dream Theater have ever released anything that truly "sucked." At least not in my opinion.
So, even though the story of this album is not something I'm able to connect with, and despite the fact that this is not the kind of music I expect or want from Dream Theater, I still purchased the CD and I'd do it again if I had a do-over because I know what kind of enormous effort goes into making something like this and I know the emotional toll putting it out there can take, but most of all, I want him -Petrucci- to continue. I want Dream Theater to continue. So I support pretty much whatever they do, even if I don't always particularly like it. I respect the work.
-
Just listened to the album while going through budget numbers (fun).
This album was in the middle of the pack for me (7-9 depending on my mood) and it still sits there. I think it is a good album. The one thing that pushes it down for me is the end of the story. Up until "The Walking Shadow", I thought it was interesting and well written. After that is when they lose it and I find it a little "cheese", for lack of a better word.
If SFAM would have ended with TSCO, it would be on the same boat of a good album with an uninteresting ending. But Finally Free gives it that plot twist at the end that elevates the album. I think that's what TA is missing, a strong ending to the story. Just my opinion.
Other than that, I think the music itself its great.
-
I don't mind the happy ending, I just feel that the pacing is a bit off and that both time and story wise, there's a lot of difference between disc 1 and disc 2.
The first album is filled to the brink defying the physical capacity of a CD and we have to go through a lot of story, the second disc is 20 minute shorter and concentrate to the detail on just the pivotal scene at the end. I mean if you turn this into a Broadway production and have actors playing it out, Faythe lies in agony for TEN full minutes if you consider "real time" what happens between Darius stabbing her and Gabriel singing her back to life. Not that it's not uncommon in plays to have the action precipitate at the end, it's just that if you look at the pacing you notice the sharp contrast between the lenght of the two discs, and the speed of the action.
-
I can't even remember the last time I listened to the album in its entirety, but since the time if its release, I have not even been close to compelled to do so. For me this is definitely DT's worst album by a pretty decent margin. It's the perfect amalgamation of everything I disliked about the band. These same qualities are what others might like most about the band's music, and if that's your bag, then more power to you.
Also, I don't agree at all that in order to appreciate a work of art's efforts and ambitions you have to enjoy it. I'm sure most people have thought "I appreciate this work's significance, but it's not for me" at some point or another. I might not like TA, but that doesn't mean I don't understand that it must have been quite the undertaking for the band. Creating over two hours of new music is no easy feat. It was a risk in many regards that just didn't really pan out is all, at least not for me and for many others.
-
I guess JP could spend the rest of his career recording boring albums like Terminal Velocity and be successful (if he always could have MP on drums, that's for sure). But luckily he is restless enough to do multiple things, including a "DT-esque musical."
That is why I like him. :biggrin:
Boring albums like TV? :rollin I like JP because he's a great guy, phenomenal guitar player, songwriter and producer. I don't particularly like TA that much, but that has nothing to do with his talents and who is or isn't playing drums.
-
Never in my life have I tried so hard to like an album. I felt like I owed it to the band, after the effort that went into this. However, after too many attempts to count, I just can't ever make it past the first couple songs. Total respect for them though. And then DoT came out and blew me away.
-
I guess JP could spend the rest of his career recording boring albums like Terminal Velocity and be successful (if he always could have MP on drums, that's for sure). But luckily he is restless enough to do multiple things, including a "DT-esque musical."
That is why I like him. :biggrin:
Boring albums like TV? :rollin I like JP because he's a great guy, phenomenal guitar player, songwriter and producer. I don't particularly like TA that much, but that has nothing to do with his talents and who is or isn't playing drums.
Yes. I don't like this type of record. I don't like Suspended Animation too.
-
Bummer for you. :loser:
-
The first album is filled to the brink defying the physical capacity of a CD and we have to go through a lot of story, the second disc is 20 minute shorter and concentrate to the detail on just the pivotal scene at the end. I mean if you turn this into a Broadway production and have actors playing it out, Faythe lies in agony for TEN full minutes if you consider "real time" what happens between Darius stabbing her and Gabriel singing her back to life. Not that it's not uncommon in plays to have the action precipitate at the end, it's just that if you look at the pacing you notice the sharp contrast between the lenght of the two discs, and the speed of the action.
Yeah, I feel the same about the balance. I have written in the past that, as much as I love the album, I wish we would have gotten something more about the clashes between the Empire and Ravenskill early in Act I, divide it into 3 acts, and then cut just a bit of what is currently Act II.
But leaving the songs basically as-is, it would feel more balanced with just a slight rearrangement of tracks. I think you get a more balanced feeling if you end Act I after The X Aspect, and move A New Beginning and The Road To Revolution to after Moment of Betrayal (and switch the order). So, to be clear, it would go:
Act I: same order, but ending with The X Aspect
Act II:
2285 Entr'acte
Moment of Betrayal
The Road To Revolution
A New Beginning
Heaven's Cove...
This preserves that AWESOME transition from 2285 to Moment of Betrayal, which is one of my favorite parts of the album. And Road fits nicely in a thematic way right after Moment. The musical flow of the first few songs after the "intermission" is really nice as well. And I think concluding Act I with the two songs that deal with Arhys's conflict, and then picks that right up again in Act II with Moment.
-
In my head, the whole thing has three acts anyway. The first one ends with Three Days, whose ending has such a "we take a breath now, come back after the commercials" feel. The rest of the first disc is Act II and the second disc is Act III.
-
In my head, the whole thing has three acts anyway. The first one ends with Three Days, whose ending has such a "we take a breath now, come back after the commercials" feel. The rest of the first disc is Act II and the second disc is Act III.
I totally agree! That's the way I've always thought about it.
-
It's crazy to me that it's already been 10 years since MP left the band, yet, it feels like forever since The Astonishing came out. In a few months, it will be the 5 year anniversary of its release.
-
It's crazy to me that it's already been 10 years since MP left the band, yet, it feels like forever since The Astonishing came out. In a few months, it will be the 5 year anniversary of its release.
Yes - you're the only one.
-
In my head, the whole thing has three acts anyway. The first one ends with Three Days, whose ending has such a "we take a breath now, come back after the commercials" feel. The rest of the first disc is Act II and the second disc is Act III.
:tup :tup :tup
That's the perfect way I would split it up if Act I were to be divided.
The first album is filled to the brink defying the physical capacity of a CD and we have to go through a lot of story, the second disc is 20 minute shorter and concentrate to the detail on just the pivotal scene at the end. I mean if you turn this into a Broadway production and have actors playing it out, Faythe lies in agony for TEN full minutes if you consider "real time" what happens between Darius stabbing her and Gabriel singing her back to life. Not that it's not uncommon in plays to have the action precipitate at the end, it's just that if you look at the pacing you notice the sharp contrast between the lenght of the two discs, and the speed of the action.
Yeah, I feel the same about the balance. I have written in the past that, as much as I love the album, I wish we would have gotten something more about the clashes between the Empire and Ravenskill early in Act I, divide it into 3 acts, and then cut just a bit of what is currently Act II.
But leaving the songs basically as-is, it would feel more balanced with just a slight rearrangement of tracks. I think you get a more balanced feeling if you end Act I after The X Aspect, and move A New Beginning and The Road To Revolution to after Moment of Betrayal (and switch the order). So, to be clear, it would go:
Act I: same order, but ending with The X Aspect
Act II:
2285 Entr'acte
Moment of Betrayal
The Road To Revolution
A New Beginning
Heaven's Cove...
This preserves that AWESOME transition from 2285 to Moment of Betrayal, which is one of my favorite parts of the album. And Road fits nicely in a thematic way right after Moment. The musical flow of the first few songs after the "intermission" is really nice as well. And I think concluding Act I with the two songs that deal with Arhys's conflict, and then picks that right up again in Act II with Moment.
But that wouldn't work lyrically. And The Road to Revolution skips between 3 different scenes, and it's like a closer for each characters moment and place in the story. You have Faythe meeting with Gabriel in his hideout, she is letting him know her Father has agreed to meet with him first before the Three Days are up. Daryus leaves Arhys' home with Xander, while Arhys ponders the offer Daryus proposed. Nafaryus is left too to ponder the tough decision whether to actually speak with Gabriel or just capture the saviour. The ensemble of "Open Eyes...Choice is Right" I see as both Arhys and Nafaryus speaking to the sky, or the higher power to help them decide the right solution.
-
I have been thinking about this for quite awhile and if I had one song to introduce someone totally unfamiliar with DT I would play them "My Last Farewell".
It's under 4 minutes and completely encapsulates all components of what makes DT and I think it is the quintessential DT song. But mainly because it's under 4 minutes......
-
I have been thinking about this for quite awhile and if I had one song to introduce someone totally unfamiliar with DT I would play them "My Last Farewell".
It's under 4 minutes and completely encapsulates all components of what makes DT and I think it is the quintessential DT song. But mainly because it's under 4 minutes......
:lol It actually does...
It has their calm soft piano vocal ballad style in the intro, then the rocking verse chorus which leads into the guitar/keyboard solos, then into the epic anthem, leading into the wacky crazy instrumental, ending with a showcase of JLB...
-
“One Last Time” might be better in my opinion
-
“One Last Time” might be better in my opinion
But it doesn't have the wacky instrumental section...
-
Very flawed masterpiece (Lyrics still kill me) Probably haven't listened to it more than two or three times this year. Very much respect the attempt but the execution fell short.
Really wish there was a live album for it in any case.
-
Very flawed masterpiece (Lyrics still kill me) Probably haven't listened to it more than two or three times this year. Very much respect the attempt but the execution fell short.
Really wish there was a live album for it in any case.
The weird thing for me is, I can see how flawed it is, yet I can also see just how much potential is there in the concept.
It's also really important to understand, it's presented in the Opera/Musical style, and they continued that Opera style live by the way the shows were, presentation booklets, seated venues, no phones and videos. I've been to many Opera's at our local Opera House, The Santa Fe Opera and it's an entirely different type of musical experience and all those are essential things you expect at an Opera, and likely what JP intended.
All of that is also why He wanted to reveal the music live, and then we take away that live experience. I wish that would've happened because it would have been interesting to see the reactions of being presented a big Rock Opera live and only live. Then after the shows, have the studio version of the music we saw live, guarantee our reactions would be different. And one I am sure JP is upset about because it fits very well with the concept of the album.
In other words, the concept and everything is there, JP just did the best he could with what he had available.
And I am really surprised why there is no live album, but I do also see the reason as to why it there isn't one.
-
This is a top 5 DT album for me. Totally wonderful, and much more akin to the style of music I prefer and write these days. I've been leaning heavily towards the melodic/orchestral/cinematic so this album feels right at home with me. I don't mind the silly-ish lyrics and overall story arc, as the music really serves a broad emotional spectrum that makes it feel more complex than it really is.
I love the abundance of "ballads" (I hate the term but it's easily understood by all). I really feel I'm in that state of mind more often than in the heavy, proggy, virtuostic side of things (which I of course still enjoy every now and then but not as much as I used to). This album contains some of the most memorable melodic content DT has ever put out, and watching it live twice has really been a highlight in my whole DT journey. I know I'm very much alone with this opinion, but it feels really good to admit that one of DT's less conventional pieces of work is also one of my favorites.
Also, I agree that the whole thing is pretty tough to listen through in one run; but I've found that my enjoyment of the material is greatly augmented when picking a few songs off the album and just listening and enjoying. Every now and then I'll just go through either two discs and just let it run, and I always feel really good and close to the material.
-
Going on a long road trip in a week and was thinking this album will be heard whole for the first time in a long time. Ive always really liked it (besides maybe my first listen which it kind of felt flat being so dense and long) and I'm kind of excited.
-
I’m still trying to crack this one, impossible to listen through in one going so I take 3 or 4 songs at a time. I didn’t see the performance live, and I think they should bring some of the songs out on future tours, not only to showcase them as good outside of the opera concept but also to mix in some shorter tracks on the set list.
Still partial to Gift of Music I was really happy to hear the band clearly again in terms of production. So I’ll give TA that it’s the best sounding of the last 10 years.
-
NoFred, yeah, definitely break it off in chunks. And if it helps, make an abridged version.
I love the album as a whole, but it does get a bit long.
My abridged version is as good as any album.
-
Same as NoFred, I find TA very daunting just to sit down and listen to. Maybe i should try the breaking it up into chunks method. There are good songs. I just can't remember how many, or where. I will certainly never say it's a bad album, but currently it's my least favourite DT, including WDADU.
However, around the time of release, weren't many people clamouring for the band to make an album that was different from the previous few...? That's certainly what we got and we cannot fault DT for doing something so different.
-
However, around the time of release, weren't many people clamouring for the band to make an album that was different from the previous few...? That's certainly what we got and we cannot fault DT for doing something so different.
(https://pics.me.me/when-their-new-songs-dont-sound-like-their-old-songs-23779949.png)
-
However, around the time of release, weren't many people clamouring for the band to make an album that was different from the previous few...? That's certainly what we got and we cannot fault DT for doing something so different.
(https://pics.me.me/when-their-new-songs-dont-sound-like-their-old-songs-23779949.png)
anyway you would go about doing it, it's wrong all the time.
-
Makes me think of the old saying "You can please all of the people some of the time, and you can please some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.
That said, I like a point that MP had stated in 2002: that they never want to forget their core sound, while still allowing for experimentation by adding different elements to newer songs. To some degree, I think they may have strayed a bit too far with TA, but also with the inclusion of some of the "harsh" vocals that were being added at the end of MP's tenure. Otherwise, I think they've largely done a good job of sticking to that thought process.
-
Same as NoFred, I find TA very daunting just to sit down and listen to. Maybe i should try the breaking it up into chunks method. There are good songs. I just can't remember how many, or where. I will certainly never say it's a bad album, but currently it's my least favourite DT, including WDADU.
However, around the time of release, weren't many people clamouring for the band to make an album that was different from the previous few...? That's certainly what we got and we cannot fault DT for doing something so different.
I wasn't posting here at that time, so I don't know what folks here might have been clamoring for. Any clamoring I saw elsewhere had more to do with production than style. For me personally, DT has always been sufficiently prolific that I've never gotten to the point of clamoring.
At the end of the day, I have no problem whatsoever with DT trying something new/unusual. Indeed, I appreciate that they went to a monumental effort to write something like TA. However, it just hasn't clicked with me. I don't hate it, and I don't think it was a mistake or misstep. Just hasn't clicked. Simple as that.
That said, I like a point that MP had stated in 2002: that they never want to forget their core sound, while still allowing for experimentation by adding different elements to newer songs. To some degree, I think they may have strayed a bit too far with TA, but also with the inclusion of some of the "harsh" vocals that were being added at the end of MP's tenure. Otherwise, I think they've largely done a good job of sticking to that thought process.
I don't know that I'd agree that TA was straying from the core sound, but I'd otherwise agree with all of this.
-
I don't think they went too far with The Astonishing. I mean, sure, it's a rock opera never done before by them, it has short and mellow songs, but it's still 101% Dream Theater. Not even on my first listening I thought stuff like "what? what is this? if it wasn't for James' voice I would suspect they sold me the wrong disc at the store".
Judas Priest's Nostradamus was WAY FARTHER than JP's usual sound than The Astonishing. It's just DT's version of a rock opera, but it's still DT, at least to me. I can still recognize, aside from the obvious aspect of James' voice, Petrucci and Rudess' styles.
-
That said, I like a point that MP had stated in 2002: that they never want to forget their core sound, while still allowing for experimentation by adding different elements to newer songs. To some degree, I think they may have strayed a bit too far with TA, but also with the inclusion of some of the "harsh" vocals that were being added at the end of MP's tenure. Otherwise, I think they've largely done a good job of sticking to that thought process.
I don't know that I'd agree that TA was straying from the core sound, but I'd otherwise agree with all of this.
I don't think they went too far with The Astonishing.
Yeah, I don't feel that it came close to deviating from their "core sound" either. But here's the thing: "too far" is entirely subjective. And I highly suspect that if you asked JP or Mike Portnoy where exactly the line is, you would probably get different answers. In other words, I'm not even sure the band members themselves at any point in time would have been exactly on the same page about what "straying too far from the core DT sound" would be, even though they may have agreed in concept.
-
That said, I like a point that MP had stated in 2002: that they never want to forget their core sound, while still allowing for experimentation by adding different elements to newer songs. To some degree, I think they may have strayed a bit too far with TA, but also with the inclusion of some of the "harsh" vocals that were being added at the end of MP's tenure. Otherwise, I think they've largely done a good job of sticking to that thought process.
I don't know that I'd agree that TA was straying from the core sound, but I'd otherwise agree with all of this.
I don't think they went too far with The Astonishing.
Yeah, I don't feel that it came close to deviating from their "core sound" either. But here's the thing: "too far" is entirely subjective. And I highly suspect that if you asked JP or Mike Portnoy where exactly the line is, you would probably get different answers. In other words, I'm not even sure the band members themselves at any point in time would have been exactly on the same page about what "straying too far from the core DT sound" would be, even though they may have agreed in concept.
I too am in agreement that DT held to their core musical elements with TA even if the focus was on softer, more ballad type material to suit the story. I am one of those who truly enjoyed TA and it just demonstrated (to me) that DT is talented enough to create something that might eventually show up on Broadway. Story and some of the lyrics are a bit cheesy but rock operas (what I call this) generally are.
-
I think TA sounds totally like DT, the difference is that the songs are short and lean more to the softer side, but everything about it is DT IMO other than being a rock opera.
-
David Campbell's arrangements made the album more Soundtracky as well. The intro to Act of Faythe being the one I enjoy, and happens to be the one that sounds more like his arrangement style that JP went along with since it sounded perfect for Faythe, being the princess and all.
-
One thing that would have helped is if the opening few seconds of each track were more distinct. Not a problem for the opening and closing few tracks, but in the middle there’s a lot of slow starts - silence or piano keys - that make it hard to jump around by ear.
Working on an abridged version now, not looking for a coherent story just something I can get into (and through) without noticing.
-
Not here to troll or light a fire, I just came to a terrible conclusion about this album
On the pro side :
-Some strong DT moments, like the first time you hear dystopian overture and hope for six degrees genius to follow
-Some parts are gems and undeniable masterpieces, like heaven's cove
-The mix and master, plus the guest instruments are greatly sounding
On the con side :
-Dystopian romeo and juliette, the story isn't strong enough for me, so it raises the expectations of musical quality of the album
-Maybe inviting 1-2 other singers would have given more texture to the overall, like ayreon
-Too many quiet moments compared to the amount of narration
So I guess nowadays I listen maybe 30 minutes of the album and think it's suffering the following issue : It's emotion focused instead of story driven.
DT are the masters of emotions, you can nearly guess what the song is about without understanding the lyrics.
-
I think TA sounds totally like DT, the difference is that the songs are short and lean more to the softer side, but everything about it is DT IMO other than being a rock opera.
TA sounds like DT not sounding like DT. :lol
-
Here's what Ross Jennings from Haken recently said about TA:
I have huge admiration for Dream Theater’s 13th album, The Astonishing not least for it’s hugely ambitious nature of fusing music, theater and science fiction literature, but indeed by inviting the listener into a whole universe of multimedia in order to consume their story, it is suddenly so much more than your average rock ’n’ roll concept album.
As someone who also writes music and lyrics through a very visual perspective, I truly appreciated the layers that were packed into forming the concept, and anyone who cared to explore this world in details that transcend the music and lyrics were truly rewarded.
After all, The Astonishing is a difficult record to appreciate casually, and while it’s not devoid of many signature Dream Theater musical traits, and contains a handful of really strong stand alone singles, it is, and must be approached as, a fully fledged piece of musical theater that demands the listener's time, effort and close attention. I always appreciate the record more with this in mind.
“People just don’t have the time for music any more” was the ultimate statement here about how music is consumed in a modern age and with an album as involved and epic as The Astonishing, I feel it proved its own case in point.
I’ve always wondered if The Astonishing may have polarized the hardcore fanbase less had this been approached as a more collaborative project a la Ayreon or even if the focus had been steered more toward an elaborate stage production with a variety of actors, singers, props and pyro? Having said this, James LaBrie gets a special mention from me for his truly admirable performance and portrayal of various characters.
And as for the legacy this album will leave, I guess time will really tell. I still return to this album and discover new things to take away from the experience, and while at the point of release we all may have been expecting another Scenes from a Memory, time has allowed us to reflect upon and appreciate the versatility this band has at communicating concept albums in unique ways.
(https://loudwire.com/best-13th-albums-rock-metal-bands/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral)
I think this is spot on and I bolded the last part because it echoes something that I had been thinking about TA for a while. I think The Astonishing would've been far better received by the general fanbase if DT had made more concept albums throughout their career, before 2016. Let me explain: up until DT12, their only real concept album was SFAM, which is largely considered one of their best albums, if not their best. Then, announcing TA as another concept album inmediately brought up comparisons between it and SFAM, because it was the "standard" for DT concept albums. Had they made one or two more concept albums before TA, there wouldn't have been that much pressure to make an album that tops, or is in pair with, SFAM (which the band wasn't trying to do anyway, but fans' expectations surely went that road), as they would've been much more "common" in DT's catalog.
-
It's always great to see someone appreciating The Astonishing. :tup
-
Here's what Ross Jennings from Haken recently said about TA:
I have huge admiration for Dream Theater’s 13th album, The Astonishing not least for it’s hugely ambitious nature of fusing music, theater and science fiction literature, but indeed by inviting the listener into a whole universe of multimedia in order to consume their story, it is suddenly so much more than your average rock ’n’ roll concept album.
As someone who also writes music and lyrics through a very visual perspective, I truly appreciated the layers that were packed into forming the concept, and anyone who cared to explore this world in details that transcend the music and lyrics were truly rewarded.
After all, The Astonishing is a difficult record to appreciate casually, and while it’s not devoid of many signature Dream Theater musical traits, and contains a handful of really strong stand alone singles, it is, and must be approached as, a fully fledged piece of musical theater that demands the listener's time, effort and close attention. I always appreciate the record more with this in mind.
“People just don’t have the time for music any more” was the ultimate statement here about how music is consumed in a modern age and with an album as involved and epic as The Astonishing, I feel it proved its own case in point.
I’ve always wondered if The Astonishing may have polarized the hardcore fanbase less had this been approached as a more collaborative project a la Ayreon or even if the focus had been steered more toward an elaborate stage production with a variety of actors, singers, props and pyro? Having said this, James LaBrie gets a special mention from me for his truly admirable performance and portrayal of various characters.
And as for the legacy this album will leave, I guess time will really tell. I still return to this album and discover new things to take away from the experience, and while at the point of release we all may have been expecting another Scenes from a Memory, time has allowed us to reflect upon and appreciate the versatility this band has at communicating concept albums in unique ways.
(https://loudwire.com/best-13th-albums-rock-metal-bands/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral)
I think this is spot on and I bolded the last part because it echoes something that I had been thinking about TA for a while. I think The Astonishing would've been far better received by the general fanbase if DT had made more concept albums throughout their career, before 2016. Let me explain: up until DT12, their only real concept album was SFAM, which is largely considered one of their best albums, if not their best. Then, announcing TA as another concept album inmediately brought up comparisons between it and SFAM, because it was the "standard" for DT concept albums. Had they made one or two more concept albums before TA, there wouldn't have been that much pressure to make an album that tops, or is in pair with, SFAM (which the band wasn't trying to do anyway, but fans' expectations surely went that road), as they would've been much more "common" in DT's catalog.
Well, I have been listening to many other concept albums before The Astonishing was released, so I knew what to expect. I read JP's descriptions and followed the album release, and understood right off the bat, this wasn't going to be anything remotely similar to how they portrayed their last concept album, SFAM. Other fans did expect another SFAM, because people hold SFAM highly, and immediately began making comparisons to it. Maybe, if the fans listened to more concept albums, and really comprehended what JP was saying, they would've understood and not had their Expectations set so high for another SFAM, basically they wanted another SFAM.
What Ross said, is exactly, pretty much, what I have been saying this entire time about The Astonishing. Particularly, these two quotes...
After all, The Astonishing is a difficult record to appreciate casually, and while it’s not devoid of many signature Dream Theater musical traits, and contains a handful of really strong stand alone singles, it is, and must be approached as, a fully fledged piece of musical theater that demands the listener's time, effort and close attention. I always appreciate the record more with this in mind.
“People just don’t have the time for music any more” was the ultimate statement here about how music is consumed in a modern age and with an album as involved and epic as The Astonishing, I feel it proved its own case in point.
Remember, it isn't a regular music album or a regular concept album. I imagine, the characters, the setting, the acting, and the music being played, all within a musical atmosphere. I have been to Operas, and I imagine that.
I just love how Ross agrees with the lyrics he quoted. Because that is the truth. If you take the time to dig into the concept and story, you would find how intricate, and rewarding, it can be to understand it all.
-
The Astonishing is my least favorite DT album by a considerable margin, but Ross' assessment of it is remarkably well-worded and fair, even to someone who doesn't really like the album much at all, and I totally understand the point of it being a difficult album to appreciate on its surface. For me, it came down to the fact that I simply didn't find the music on the album itself all that interesting. I felt the songwriting was weak, and that the story it had to tell was not very compelling. But I also recognize that it was an ambitious feat, what with the multi-media ventures surrounding it and the promotion leading to its release.
-
The Astonishing is my least favorite DT album by a considerable margin, but Ross' assessment of it is remarkably well-worded and fair, even to someone who doesn't really like the album much at all, and I totally understand the point of it being a difficult album to appreciate on its surface. For me, it came down to the fact that I simply didn't find the music on the album itself all that interesting. I felt the songwriting was weak, and that the story it had to tell was not very compelling. But I also recognize that it was an ambitious feat, what with the multi-media ventures surrounding it and the promotion leading to its release.
How do you define weak songwriting, in this case of The Astonishing?
-
In short, I found that the instrumentals for most of the songs to be middling. None of the riffs or even many vocal melodies really stuck with me, and when it tried to go for something anthemic, it came with mixed results. Coupled with the onslaught of mid-paced ballad tracks one after the other, it resulted in what I felt to be a rather bloated tracklist. There are highlights for me, such as that groove that ends off A New Beginning, and Dystopian Overture has a lot of good moments too, but these highlights came few and far between for me.
-
The Astonishing is my least favorite DT album by a considerable margin, but Ross' assessment of it is remarkably well-worded and fair, even to someone who doesn't really like the album much at all, and I totally understand the point of it being a difficult album to appreciate on its surface. For me, it came down to the fact that I simply didn't find the music on the album itself all that interesting. I felt the songwriting was weak, and that the story it had to tell was not very compelling. But I also recognize that it was an ambitious feat, what with the multi-media ventures surrounding it and the promotion leading to its release.
How do you define weak songwriting, in this case of The Astonishing?
Yeah, nothing wrong in stating that TA is not your cup of tea, fair enough. But to say that it is weak songwriting? I think that the songwriting skills on TA reaches a high level with recurring sections and interesting transitions. Take The X-Factor: the way the song changes from minor to major chording is very well done! I'm in the camp of liking TA as it is.
-
In short, I found that the instrumentals for most of the songs to be middling. None of the riffs or even many vocal melodies really stuck with me, and when it tried to go for something anthemic, it came with mixed results. Coupled with the onslaught of mid-paced ballad tracks one after the other, it resulted in what I felt to be a rather bloated tracklist. There are highlights for me, such as that groove that ends off A New Beginning, and Dystopian Overture has a lot of good moments too, but these highlights came few and far between for me.
Cool :tup
But, that doesn't mean the song writing is weak. It's just not what you expected it to be, and it wasn't to your preferences.
The Astonishing is my least favorite DT album by a considerable margin, but Ross' assessment of it is remarkably well-worded and fair, even to someone who doesn't really like the album much at all, and I totally understand the point of it being a difficult album to appreciate on its surface. For me, it came down to the fact that I simply didn't find the music on the album itself all that interesting. I felt the songwriting was weak, and that the story it had to tell was not very compelling. But I also recognize that it was an ambitious feat, what with the multi-media ventures surrounding it and the promotion leading to its release.
How do you define weak songwriting, in this case of The Astonishing?
I think that the songwriting skills on TA reaches a high level with recurring sections and interesting transitions. Take The X-Factor: the way the song changes from minor to major chording is very well done! I'm in the camp of liking TA as it is.
I agree
For me, it's the mood. The way the songwriting enhances the mood of the characters. Especially, Faythe's Theme. The reason I feel, it's ballad heavy is due to Gabriel and Faythe being the main characters of the story. It revolves around them. And with the mood of the characters being shown through the music, Faythes Themes and Gabriels Themes are going to be the highlights and main focus of the music, The main Story revolves around those themes. Each character has their own Musical Theme, even Evangeline, and is intertwined within the Main Story Themes. And sometimes, the music sets the scene, As in the end of The Walking Shadow, where it goes silent and all you hear is the choir and Bass thump, that sets the scene for Faythes theme and Darrius' theme, where Faythe is in the dark forest area (It's a forest area because that's how it's topography is on the map), walking into Heaven's Cove, the Choir singing Faythes Theme there let's, us the audience, know this mysterious figure is Faythe through the music, while the Narrator narrates to us what happens, as we then hear the stabbing of Fatyhe, by her own brother.
-
Honestly, the more time passes by the less I listen to TA (last years I was only listening to the middle of disk 2).
I like my DT very proggy and epic, so the album was supposed to get immediate praise from me.
There are definitely some genius songwriting moments, but at the end of the day the cons wins.
-Quiet songs are too folkish/cheesy
-There is no narrator and the limitation to one voice is FAR from Ayreon styled dialogs. I'm French and without the booklet it's hard to guess who is talking.
-Sounds like only JP and JR had fun and collaborated
-It's super long, some parts are just fillers. The build ups doesn't lead to epic explosive songs except some in disk 2 when people die.
-It's not an album you can share a listen with anybody.
Over time, I really have an issue with the identity of the album, I think it lacked a decisive choice like one of those :
1) Making it aimed to the mass : Easy songs, catchy themes and tunes.
2) Having several singers : That would have emphasized on the Broadway side of it
3) Making it heavier and proggy : A dystopian story played by such virtuosos should have become a staple with famous concept albums
4) Getting a director to bring the project upper
Honestly, it's what I felt watching Score, I was like "Metallica called Michael Kamen, this is not as good as S&M"
That was only about the astonishing, I'm still a hardcore fan of 60% of DT's work :D
-
5 years later and I'm still totally, completely, absolutely, and utterly astonished. ??? :yeahright :|
-
The Astonishing is my least favorite DT album by a considerable margin, but Ross' assessment of it is remarkably well-worded and fair, even to someone who doesn't really like the album much at all, and I totally understand the point of it being a difficult album to appreciate on its surface.
Yeah, that's the catch. I like Ross and he has a point, but if an album itself makes a point that people won't like it because of *reasons* and people don't end up liking it, it's not always because of *reasons*. A two-hour DT album sounds fantastic to me. Hey, put Images and ACOS and the surplus material together and that's something I'd take two hours out of my life to listen to. But TA isn't that album, and they've made it kind of difficult to enjoy if you don't like the whole package, and so I skip it.
-
The Astonishing is my least favorite DT album by a considerable margin, but Ross' assessment of it is remarkably well-worded and fair, even to someone who doesn't really like the album much at all, and I totally understand the point of it being a difficult album to appreciate on its surface.
Yeah, that's the catch. I like Ross and he has a point, but if an album itself makes a point that people won't like it because of *reasons* and people don't end up liking it, it's not always because of *reasons*. A two-hour DT album sounds fantastic to me. Hey, put Images and ACOS and the surplus material together and that's something I'd take two hours out of my life to listen to. But TA isn't that album, and they've made it kind of difficult to enjoy if you don't like the whole package, and so I skip it.
That is the risk.
But those of who do like the whole package, It's really....Astonishing.
-
Don't know how much this get commented on around here but...for me one of the worst aspects of this record was all the so called "foley" stuff. OTOH, before I listened to the Astonishing I didn't know that futuristic/neo-fuedal militias waged their battles by banging tin cups together. Nor did I realize that combat would involve so much consternated straining, or that the ground of the NeoAmericanEmpire consisted of so much squelchy (vaseline sown?) top soil. And of course, there's that mighty scream so powerful and heart-rending that it was said to pierce eardrums! And why would the royal family find it so fuckin' hilarious that they just lost their daughter at the hands of their son?
Overall, I find the sound FX on this release are on the "how could they have put this out without noticing this?" level of bad. A shame when someone puts so much effort and time into creating something and in the end something that seems like it would be a minor details ends up helping to pull the whole thing down several notches. It just takes me out of the story each time. My brain goes "I get what you're trying to do there. Bless." It's like an underfunded student production.
-
Don't know how much this get commented on around here but...for me one of the worst aspects of this record was all the so called "foley" stuff. OTOH, before I listened to the Astonishing I didn't know that futuristic/neo-fuedal militias waged their battles by banging tin cups together. Nor did I realize that combat would involve so much consternated straining, or that the ground of the NeoAmericanEmpire consisted of so much squelchy (vaseline sown?) top soil. And of course, there's that mighty scream so powerful and heart-rending that it was said to pierce eardrums! And why would the royal family find it so fuckin' hilarious that they just lost their daughter at the hands of their son?
Overall, I find the sound FX on this release are on the "how could they have put this out without noticing this?" level of bad. A shame when someone puts so much effort and time into creating something and in the end something that seems like it would be a minor details ends up helping to pull the whole thing down several notches. It just takes me out of the story each time. My brain goes "I get what you're trying to do there. Bless." It's like an underfunded student production.
:rollin :rollin
Sorry but I just find that funny. They did the same thing with Scenes From A Memory. At the end when Nicholas returns home, he goes into his house, which has no tile, but a dirt floor. The sound effect here sounds like someone walking on dirt. Also, the Wilhem Scream.
These are usually stock samples, or sounds that they happen to find somewhere. You could do them yourself, but it takes time to do actually go out, find the right sound you want, record it without any other noises, make sure it sounds good, and then you can put it in as a sample. With the band having deadlines to meet, they didn't have the time do that, and instead found the best samples they could find that best suited the sound and scene they wanted to convey.
-
Also, the Wilhem Scream.
Huh?? I mean, I know there's a "scream" at the end (although it's really just a startled reaction), but it's Nicholas.
-
Don't know how much this get commented on around here but...for me one of the worst aspects of this record was all the so called "foley" stuff. OTOH, before I listened to the Astonishing I didn't know that futuristic/neo-fuedal militias waged their battles by banging tin cups together. Nor did I realize that combat would involve so much consternated straining, or that the ground of the NeoAmericanEmpire consisted of so much squelchy (vaseline sown?) top soil. And of course, there's that mighty scream so powerful and heart-rending that it was said to pierce eardrums! And why would the royal family find it so fuckin' hilarious that they just lost their daughter at the hands of their son?
Overall, I find the sound FX on this release are on the "how could they have put this out without noticing this?" level of bad. A shame when someone puts so much effort and time into creating something and in the end something that seems like it would be a minor details ends up helping to pull the whole thing down several notches. It just takes me out of the story each time. My brain goes "I get what you're trying to do there. Bless." It's like an underfunded student production.
This. I couldn't agree more. I think that, given the prominence of said samples (I feel they work so much better on SFAM) along with (in my opinion) a convoluted, heavily derivitive storyline and a bunch of redundant songs makes this a 'bottom of the barrel) release for me.
I respect the band (and all the fans that dig it), but this is just such a miss (for me).
About a year ago I made a 'final' mix (after multiple listens) that amounted to all of 8 songs. Now, mind you, it's a super solid 40 minutes of music, and I enjoy it thoroughly, but I have no intentions of ever listening to this all the way through again.
All of that being said, I am so proud of the for digging deep this late into their career. Much respect.
-
Don't know how much this get commented on around here but...for me one of the worst aspects of this record was all the so called "foley" stuff. OTOH, before I listened to the Astonishing I didn't know that futuristic/neo-fuedal militias waged their battles by banging tin cups together. Nor did I realize that combat would involve so much consternated straining, or that the ground of the NeoAmericanEmpire consisted of so much squelchy (vaseline sown?) top soil. And of course, there's that mighty scream so powerful and heart-rending that it was said to pierce eardrums! And why would the royal family find it so fuckin' hilarious that they just lost their daughter at the hands of their son?
Overall, I find the sound FX on this release are on the "how could they have put this out without noticing this?" level of bad. A shame when someone puts so much effort and time into creating something and in the end something that seems like it would be a minor details ends up helping to pull the whole thing down several notches. It just takes me out of the story each time. My brain goes "I get what you're trying to do there. Bless." It's like an underfunded student production.
This. I couldn't agree more. I think that, given the prominence of said samples (I feel they work so much better on SFAM) along with (in my opinion) a convoluted, heavily derivitive storyline and a bunch of redundant songs makes this a 'bottom of the barrel) release for me.
I respect the band (and all the fans that dig it), but this is just such a miss (for me).
About a year ago I made a 'final' mix (after multiple listens) that amounted to all of 8 songs. Now, mind you, it's a super solid 40 minutes of music, and I enjoy it thoroughly, but I have no intentions of ever listening to this all the way through again.
All of that being said, I am so proud of the for digging deep this late into their career. Much respect.
DT has been using samples their entire career. From Awake to SDOIT. Hell even TOT so I don't understand the big deal - unless you just don't like TA in which case just say you don't like it. You would have much more credibility if you just said it. (My comments are meant for a wider audience in general and are not aimed at anyone in particular.)
-
Also, the Wilhem Scream.
Huh?? I mean, I know there's a "scream" at the end (although it's really just a startled reaction), but it's Nicholas.
It's in Finally Free "Open Your Eyes, Victoria"
-
Don't know how much this get commented on around here but...for me one of the worst aspects of this record was all the so called "foley" stuff. OTOH, before I listened to the Astonishing I didn't know that futuristic/neo-fuedal militias waged their battles by banging tin cups together. Nor did I realize that combat would involve so much consternated straining, or that the ground of the NeoAmericanEmpire consisted of so much squelchy (vaseline sown?) top soil. And of course, there's that mighty scream so powerful and heart-rending that it was said to pierce eardrums! And why would the royal family find it so fuckin' hilarious that they just lost their daughter at the hands of their son?
Overall, I find the sound FX on this release are on the "how could they have put this out without noticing this?" level of bad. A shame when someone puts so much effort and time into creating something and in the end something that seems like it would be a minor details ends up helping to pull the whole thing down several notches. It just takes me out of the story each time. My brain goes "I get what you're trying to do there. Bless." It's like an underfunded student production.
This. I couldn't agree more. I think that, given the prominence of said samples (I feel they work so much better on SFAM) along with (in my opinion) a convoluted, heavily derivitive storyline and a bunch of redundant songs makes this a 'bottom of the barrel) release for me.
I respect the band (and all the fans that dig it), but this is just such a miss (for me).
About a year ago I made a 'final' mix (after multiple listens) that amounted to all of 8 songs. Now, mind you, it's a super solid 40 minutes of music, and I enjoy it thoroughly, but I have no intentions of ever listening to this all the way through again.
All of that being said, I am so proud of the for digging deep this late into their career. Much respect.
DT has been using samples their entire career. From Awake to SDOIT. Hell even TOT so I don't understand the big deal - unless you just don't like TA in which case just say you don't like it. You would have much more credibility if you just said it. (My comments are meant for a wider audience in general and are not aimed at anyone in particular.)
Yeah man, I basically said just that. Respectfully, I might add. But, this being a forum, I feel entitled to expound upon 'why' I don't like it, hence the discussion.
Not sure how offering an explanation reduces one's credibility.
-
Don't know how much this get commented on around here but...for me one of the worst aspects of this record was all the so called "foley" stuff. OTOH, before I listened to the Astonishing I didn't know that futuristic/neo-fuedal militias waged their battles by banging tin cups together. Nor did I realize that combat would involve so much consternated straining, or that the ground of the NeoAmericanEmpire consisted of so much squelchy (vaseline sown?) top soil. And of course, there's that mighty scream so powerful and heart-rending that it was said to pierce eardrums! And why would the royal family find it so fuckin' hilarious that they just lost their daughter at the hands of their son?
Overall, I find the sound FX on this release are on the "how could they have put this out without noticing this?" level of bad. A shame when someone puts so much effort and time into creating something and in the end something that seems like it would be a minor details ends up helping to pull the whole thing down several notches. It just takes me out of the story each time. My brain goes "I get what you're trying to do there. Bless." It's like an underfunded student production.
This. I couldn't agree more. I think that, given the prominence of said samples (I feel they work so much better on SFAM) along with (in my opinion) a convoluted, heavily derivitive storyline and a bunch of redundant songs makes this a 'bottom of the barrel) release for me.
I respect the band (and all the fans that dig it), but this is just such a miss (for me).
About a year ago I made a 'final' mix (after multiple listens) that amounted to all of 8 songs. Now, mind you, it's a super solid 40 minutes of music, and I enjoy it thoroughly, but I have no intentions of ever listening to this all the way through again.
All of that being said, I am so proud of the for digging deep this late into their career. Much respect.
DT has been using samples their entire career. From Awake to SDOIT. Hell even TOT so I don't understand the big deal - unless you just don't like TA in which case just say you don't like it. You would have much more credibility if you just said it. (My comments are meant for a wider audience in general and are not aimed at anyone in particular.)
I agree...
More about The Astonishing. I still haven't finished that damn book. :facepalm: :facepalm:
I don't know why. I read it, put it down, and then don't pick it back up again. I should really just do that now. Today will be Astonishing book for me. I really want to post more about the concept, but I need to read the book. :lol :lol
-
Also, the Wilhem Scream.
Huh?? I mean, I know there's a "scream" at the end (although it's really just a startled reaction), but it's Nicholas.
The Wilhelm Scream is the name of a stock scream sound effect. It's been used in hundreds of films and TV shows. My kids and I pick it out whenever we hear it.
-
I'm not the biggest fan of those stock sounds on TA, but I'd take them any day over the moaning in Home :eek
-
Don't know how much this get commented on around here but...for me one of the worst aspects of this record was all the so called "foley" stuff. OTOH, before I listened to the Astonishing I didn't know that futuristic/neo-fuedal militias waged their battles by banging tin cups together. Nor did I realize that combat would involve so much consternated straining, or that the ground of the NeoAmericanEmpire consisted of so much squelchy (vaseline sown?) top soil. And of course, there's that mighty scream so powerful and heart-rending that it was said to pierce eardrums! And why would the royal family find it so fuckin' hilarious that they just lost their daughter at the hands of their son?
Overall, I find the sound FX on this release are on the "how could they have put this out without noticing this?" level of bad. A shame when someone puts so much effort and time into creating something and in the end something that seems like it would be a minor details ends up helping to pull the whole thing down several notches. It just takes me out of the story each time. My brain goes "I get what you're trying to do there. Bless." It's like an underfunded student production.
This. I couldn't agree more. I think that, given the prominence of said samples (I feel they work so much better on SFAM) along with (in my opinion) a convoluted, heavily derivitive storyline and a bunch of redundant songs makes this a 'bottom of the barrel) release for me.
I respect the band (and all the fans that dig it), but this is just such a miss (for me).
About a year ago I made a 'final' mix (after multiple listens) that amounted to all of 8 songs. Now, mind you, it's a super solid 40 minutes of music, and I enjoy it thoroughly, but I have no intentions of ever listening to this all the way through again.
All of that being said, I am so proud of the for digging deep this late into their career. Much respect.
DT has been using samples their entire career. From Awake to SDOIT. Hell even TOT so I don't understand the big deal - unless you just don't like TA in which case just say you don't like it. You would have much more credibility if you just said it. (My comments are meant for a wider audience in general and are not aimed at anyone in particular.)
Yeah man, I basically said just that. Respectfully, I might add. But, this being a forum, I feel entitled to expound upon 'why' I don't like it, hence the discussion.
Not sure how offering an explanation reduces one's credibility.
One man's dinner is another man's indigestion. I just think arguing that samples are going to make or break an album, is a pretty weak argument. Yes, one doesn't like what one doesn't like and I guess I'm saying that letting the samples they use, to determine whether you like a musical piece or not, is like saying that you don't like the brush strokes Van Gough used on A Starry Night so therefore I don't like the painting.
Seems short-sighted to me.
-
I'm not the biggest fan of those stock sounds on TA, but I'd take them any day over the moaning in Home :eek
Oh, C'mon man. Nothing's better than the sound of a woman moaning while she's getting plowed. :biggrin: :lol
-
Don't know how much this get commented on around here but...for me one of the worst aspects of this record was all the so called "foley" stuff. OTOH, before I listened to the Astonishing I didn't know that futuristic/neo-fuedal militias waged their battles by banging tin cups together. Nor did I realize that combat would involve so much consternated straining, or that the ground of the NeoAmericanEmpire consisted of so much squelchy (vaseline sown?) top soil. And of course, there's that mighty scream so powerful and heart-rending that it was said to pierce eardrums! And why would the royal family find it so fuckin' hilarious that they just lost their daughter at the hands of their son?
Overall, I find the sound FX on this release are on the "how could they have put this out without noticing this?" level of bad. A shame when someone puts so much effort and time into creating something and in the end something that seems like it would be a minor details ends up helping to pull the whole thing down several notches. It just takes me out of the story each time. My brain goes "I get what you're trying to do there. Bless." It's like an underfunded student production.
This. I couldn't agree more. I think that, given the prominence of said samples (I feel they work so much better on SFAM) along with (in my opinion) a convoluted, heavily derivitive storyline and a bunch of redundant songs makes this a 'bottom of the barrel) release for me.
I respect the band (and all the fans that dig it), but this is just such a miss (for me).
About a year ago I made a 'final' mix (after multiple listens) that amounted to all of 8 songs. Now, mind you, it's a super solid 40 minutes of music, and I enjoy it thoroughly, but I have no intentions of ever listening to this all the way through again.
All of that being said, I am so proud of the for digging deep this late into their career. Much respect.
DT has been using samples their entire career. From Awake to SDOIT. Hell even TOT so I don't understand the big deal - unless you just don't like TA in which case just say you don't like it. You would have much more credibility if you just said it. (My comments are meant for a wider audience in general and are not aimed at anyone in particular.)
Yeah man, I basically said just that. Respectfully, I might add. But, this being a forum, I feel entitled to expound upon 'why' I don't like it, hence the discussion.
Not sure how offering an explanation reduces one's credibility.
One man's dinner is another man's indigestion. I just think arguing that samples are going to make or break an album, is a pretty weak argument. Yes, one doesn't like what one doesn't like and I guess I'm saying that letting the samples they use, to determine whether you like a musical piece or not, is like saying that you don't like the brush strokes Van Gough used on A Starry Night so therefore I don't like the painting.
Seems short-sighted to me.
I took the point being the quality of the samples on TA, not their inclusion. The sword fight in particular is late 90s Age of Empires fidelity. I’d much rather have most of these songs without.
OTOH Home’s samples are just fine
-
I respect the band immensely for the sheer effort that went into it. However, after trying too many times to count, I have to accept that it is my least favorite DT album. While many people love James performance, I just can't get into it. Also, far too many uber slow sections, which isn't a bad thing if they hold my interest but on this album, they don't grab me or keep me interested.
-
Don't know how much this get commented on around here but...for me one of the worst aspects of this record was all the so called "foley" stuff. OTOH, before I listened to the Astonishing I didn't know that futuristic/neo-fuedal militias waged their battles by banging tin cups together. Nor did I realize that combat would involve so much consternated straining, or that the ground of the NeoAmericanEmpire consisted of so much squelchy (vaseline sown?) top soil. And of course, there's that mighty scream so powerful and heart-rending that it was said to pierce eardrums! And why would the royal family find it so fuckin' hilarious that they just lost their daughter at the hands of their son?
Overall, I find the sound FX on this release are on the "how could they have put this out without noticing this?" level of bad. A shame when someone puts so much effort and time into creating something and in the end something that seems like it would be a minor details ends up helping to pull the whole thing down several notches. It just takes me out of the story each time. My brain goes "I get what you're trying to do there. Bless." It's like an underfunded student production.
This. I couldn't agree more. I think that, given the prominence of said samples (I feel they work so much better on SFAM) along with (in my opinion) a convoluted, heavily derivitive storyline and a bunch of redundant songs makes this a 'bottom of the barrel) release for me.
I respect the band (and all the fans that dig it), but this is just such a miss (for me).
About a year ago I made a 'final' mix (after multiple listens) that amounted to all of 8 songs. Now, mind you, it's a super solid 40 minutes of music, and I enjoy it thoroughly, but I have no intentions of ever listening to this all the way through again.
All of that being said, I am so proud of the for digging deep this late into their career. Much respect.
DT has been using samples their entire career. From Awake to SDOIT. Hell even TOT so I don't understand the big deal - unless you just don't like TA in which case just say you don't like it. You would have much more credibility if you just said it. (My comments are meant for a wider audience in general and are not aimed at anyone in particular.)
Yeah man, I basically said just that. Respectfully, I might add. But, this being a forum, I feel entitled to expound upon 'why' I don't like it, hence the discussion.
Not sure how offering an explanation reduces one's credibility.
One man's dinner is another man's indigestion. I just think arguing that samples are going to make or break an album, is a pretty weak argument. Yes, one doesn't like what one doesn't like and I guess I'm saying that letting the samples they use, to determine whether you like a musical piece or not, is like saying that you don't like the brush strokes Van Gough used on A Starry Night so therefore I don't like the painting.
Seems short-sighted to me.
Man, that Van Gogh, what a hack, am I right! :P
Yeah, as far as the samples, I wasn't really hanging my hate on the samples, merely citing them as one of many issues I have with the record. All in all, I like the odd sample in my tunes.
-
Also, the Wilhem Scream.
Huh?? I mean, I know there's a "scream" at the end (although it's really just a startled reaction), but it's Nicholas.
The Wilhelm Scream is the name of a stock scream sound effect. It's been used in hundreds of films and TV shows. My kids and I pick it out whenever we hear it.
Wow, I mean, I knew there were sounds bites used over and over throughout different media, but I didn't know about this specific one, in so many of the movies I've seen. This video has me cracking up right now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbYsoEasio (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbYsoEasio) It makes me wonder if this is done to just add in an easily findable sound bite of a scream or if it's like a cult classic thing where it's added purposely just to have the Wilhelm Scream in the movie.
-
Also, the Wilhem Scream.
Huh?? I mean, I know there's a "scream" at the end (although it's really just a startled reaction), but it's Nicholas.
The Wilhelm Scream is the name of a stock scream sound effect. It's been used in hundreds of films and TV shows. My kids and I pick it out whenever we hear it.
Wow, I mean, I knew there were sounds bites used over and over throughout different media, but I didn't know about this specific one, in so many of the movies I've seen. This video has me cracking up right now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbYsoEasio (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbYsoEasio) It makes me wonder if this is done to just add in an easily findable sound bite of a scream or if it's like a cult classic thing where it's added purposely just to have the Wilhelm Scream in the movie.
That's a hilarious compilation. It's funny because they don't fit at all. I think the best one was Reservoir Dogs. :lol
I actually heard it in Mortal Kombat:Annihilation, in the Krypt, first before I heard it in SFAM.
-
Well, four years later, while I still like the majority of the Astonishing, I do agree that it can be a slog to listen to it for two hours straight, and sadly, unless I'm out on a trip that lasts for two hours, there are other music that I would prefer to listen to for two hours straight.
Take Ayreon's The Human Equation. To me, that's a great bar in terms of creating a solid story and incorporating prog-metal. It wasn't a balls-to-the walls album as well. It also included folky, poppier, and soft acoustic elements at times and none really took issues to it in comparison to those that had issues with the softer aspects that the Astonishing had. I wonder why.
-
I love the album and have the 4LP boxset as it was £40 instead of £80 so i snapped it up...
But i've never listened to all 130 minutes in one sitting.
-
Take Ayreon's The Human Equation. To me, that's a great bar in terms of creating a solid story and incorporating prog-metal. It wasn't a balls-to-the walls album as well. It also included folky, poppier, and soft acoustic elements at times and none really took issues to it in comparison to those that had issues with the softer aspects that the Astonishing had. I wonder why.
Because it wasn't composed the same way as The Astonishing was composed. Arjen makes music, then decides which project the music best suits. Transitus, was originally meant to be a Star One, but, it ended up an Ayreon album. Plus, Arjen has 3 albums prior to have perfected the sound and feel he wants.
The point of The Astonishing wasn't to write a Prog-Metal epic concept. The point was to write a Rock Opera, utilizing Prog-Metal. JP and JR got together to write down THEMES, then take those Themes and expand upon them. The concept called for that music style. the concept wasn't about the War of The Astonshing, It's about Gabriel and Faythe, trying to stop the war from escalating further. It took Nefaryus' Daughter almost dying for him to realize. Music is strong, as it, healed his Daughter. After, they "Power Down" the NOMACS.
I am telling you, I really enjoy the concept, and it's among the best I have heard. The story is immense, and JP did an excellent job of creating this world.
I understand people won't like the story concept, but that's fine. I want to discuss more of the story. So to the ones who do like The Astonishing. What interests you into the Story?
-
Here's what Ross Jennings from Haken recently said about TA:
I have huge admiration for Dream Theater’s 13th album, The Astonishing not least for it’s hugely ambitious nature of fusing music, theater and science fiction literature, but indeed by inviting the listener into a whole universe of multimedia in order to consume their story, it is suddenly so much more than your average rock ’n’ roll concept album.
As someone who also writes music and lyrics through a very visual perspective, I truly appreciated the layers that were packed into forming the concept, and anyone who cared to explore this world in details that transcend the music and lyrics were truly rewarded.
After all, The Astonishing is a difficult record to appreciate casually, and while it’s not devoid of many signature Dream Theater musical traits, and contains a handful of really strong stand alone singles, it is, and must be approached as, a fully fledged piece of musical theater that demands the listener's time, effort and close attention. I always appreciate the record more with this in mind.
“People just don’t have the time for music any more” was the ultimate statement here about how music is consumed in a modern age and with an album as involved and epic as The Astonishing, I feel it proved its own case in point.
I’ve always wondered if The Astonishing may have polarized the hardcore fanbase less had this been approached as a more collaborative project a la Ayreon or even if the focus had been steered more toward an elaborate stage production with a variety of actors, singers, props and pyro? Having said this, James LaBrie gets a special mention from me for his truly admirable performance and portrayal of various characters.
And as for the legacy this album will leave, I guess time will really tell. I still return to this album and discover new things to take away from the experience, and while at the point of release we all may have been expecting another Scenes from a Memory, time has allowed us to reflect upon and appreciate the versatility this band has at communicating concept albums in unique ways.
(https://loudwire.com/best-13th-albums-rock-metal-bands/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral)
I think this is spot on and I bolded the last part because it echoes something that I had been thinking about TA for a while. I think The Astonishing would've been far better received by the general fanbase if DT had made more concept albums throughout their career, before 2016. Let me explain: up until DT12, their only real concept album was SFAM, which is largely considered one of their best albums, if not their best. Then, announcing TA as another concept album inmediately brought up comparisons between it and SFAM, because it was the "standard" for DT concept albums. Had they made one or two more concept albums before TA, there wouldn't have been that much pressure to make an album that tops, or is in pair with, SFAM (which the band wasn't trying to do anyway, but fans' expectations surely went that road), as they would've been much more "common" in DT's catalog.
I've NEVER had a problem with the concept, I just don't think it was executed as well as it could have been (lyrically.)
-
Technically, there are a lot of DT's albums that could and should be considered "concept". Octavarium, Black Clouds, Six Degrees come to mind. Rush's 2112 is considered a concept album but really the suite of songs on the song 2112 which can be considered a concept.
Personally, I think DT should have marketed it as a rock opera instead of a concept album. That may have set different expectations.
-
Technically, there are a lot of DT's albums that could and should be considered "concept". Octavarium, Black Clouds, Six Degrees come to mind.
How so?
Personally, I think DT should have marketed it as a rock opera instead of a concept album. That may have set different expectations.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they did.
-
Technically, there are a lot of DT's albums that could and should be considered "concept". Octavarium, Black Clouds, Six Degrees come to mind.
How so?
Personally, I think DT should have marketed it as a rock opera instead of a concept album. That may have set different expectations.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they did.
A concept album/song consists around common themes that are achieved either instrumentally, lyrically or compositionally. We ALL know about the concepts in Octavarium (and shame on DT fans that don't know). With Black Clouds the theme lyrically was about life events each of the members went through and SDOIT was about mental illness. So yes Octavarium and Black Clouds are indeed concept albums while SDOIT is a concept song.
As for the marketing of TA, I remember seeing the word concept being thrown around more than rock opera but I guess that's an anecdotal assessment as there were many news outlets covering the release.
-
A concept album/song consists around common themes that are achieved either instrumentally, lyrically or compositionally. We ALL know about the concepts in Octavarium (and shame on DT fans that don't know). With Black Clouds the theme lyrically was about life events each of the members went through and SDOIT was about mental illness. So yes Octavarium and Black Clouds are indeed concept albums while SDOIT is a concept song.
As for the marketing of TA, I remember seeing the word concept being thrown around more than rock opera but I guess that's an anecdotal assessment as there were many news outlets covering the release.
SDOIT isn't a concept album, as disc 1 has nothing to do with the mental illness theme. Disc two is about that, but it's, basically, a song split in different tracks.
Octavarium does have a lot of nuggets, but that doesn't mean it is a concept album either, nor the band members intended to make it one or consider it one. Black Clouds is even farther from being one, as there's a common approach to lyric writing, but that's as far as it gets, and they're no strangers to doing this, just look at what Jordan just said about DT15 (currently being worked on):
(DT15 will not be a concept album, but according to an interview with Jordan, they do follow an interesting basic idea, as he mentioned. (and that he did not reveal as of yet)
Albums can follow a "theme" or common approach, but still they don't count as "concept albums".
As for the marketing for TA, I remember the original tour poster leaked before it was intended for release, so they hurried in announcing "The Astonishing Live, a Rock Opera by Dream Theater".
-
Yep, DT has two concept albums: Scenes from a Memory and The Astonishing. That's it, that's the list.
-
Scenes, SDoIT, ToT, and 8vm are each roughly a quarter of one big meta album, and 8vm is all about concluding it, with the first 7 tracks leading up to the title track. So technically all 4 are concept albums, Scenes being a concept album within a concept album (and Six Degrees being a concept song/album within a concept album within a concept album.)
-
The idea of the "concept" album is one of the most annoying things I find with this genre of music.
-
I guess my question is, what do others consider a concept album? While Octavarium didn't start out as a concept album, it sure turned into one. The theme of using the numbers 8 and 5, is all over the place and even the album jacket is littered with the references. This is obviously not an accident.
It sounds like people only accept a concept album as telling a story throughput the album
-
Concept albums, or in a wider sense of the word, conceptually tied music is not something that just happens in prog or metal. That's basically an idea that's been around forever (any fans of opera around?), so I don't really feel why someone would be bothered by it.
True, popular music has had a song-oriented approach in majority, but one of the things I like about the whole "progressive" philosophy is that of trying to take stuff from other genres, styles and ways of thinking music.
-
A concept album/song consists around common themes that are achieved either instrumentally, lyrically or compositionally. We ALL know about the concepts in Octavarium (and shame on DT fans that don't know). With Black Clouds the theme lyrically was about life events each of the members went through and SDOIT was about mental illness. So yes Octavarium and Black Clouds are indeed concept albums while SDOIT is a concept song.
I'm pretty sure every song with lyrics is a concept song to some extent. :lol
I get what you're saying, but with SDOIT being a suite, it feels a bit inaccurate to call the album a concept album. Awake for example has the A Mind Beside Itself suite, but that doesn't make it a concept album (unless you buy the Spider-Man theories :P).
Back on topic, I don't think TA being marketed as a concept album had much of an effect on expectations, as there were several things revealed before release that made it clear that it wasn't going to be something like Octavarium where the concept is purely thematic. Off the top of my head, I remember the character portraits being introduced, the map of the Northern Empire being revealed, the setting of the story being briefly explained, the whole "choose your side" thing being the very first thing we knew about it, & of course, the tracklist having far more songs than any other DT album before it. I think you would have to be a very casual fan to not realise that this was going to be a story-based rock opera & not just a thematic concept album.
-
Back on topic, I don't think TA being marketed as a concept album had much of an effect on expectations, as there were several things revealed before release that made it clear that it wasn't going to be something like Octavarium where the concept is purely thematic. Off the top of my head, I remember the character portraits being introduced, the map of the Northern Empire being revealed, the setting of the story being briefly explained, the whole "choose your side" thing being the very first thing we knew about it, & of course, the tracklist having far more songs than any other DT album before it. I think you would have to be a very casual fan to not realise that this was going to be a story-based rock opera & not just a thematic concept album.
I remember that, back then when the tracklist was just revealed, I posted a comment on a DT-related Facebook page about how interesting it was that all songs would be much shorter this time (given the track count) and some random dude started claiming I wasn't a true DT fan because "they obviously only write long songs and I obviously had no clue what I was talking about" :rollin
-
Back on topic, I don't think TA being marketed as a concept album had much of an effect on expectations, as there were several things revealed before release that made it clear that it wasn't going to be something like Octavarium where the concept is purely thematic. Off the top of my head, I remember the character portraits being introduced, the map of the Northern Empire being revealed, the setting of the story being briefly explained, the whole "choose your side" thing being the very first thing we knew about it, & of course, the tracklist having far more songs than any other DT album before it. I think you would have to be a very casual fan to not realise that this was going to be a story-based rock opera & not just a thematic concept album.
I remember that, back then when the tracklist was just revealed, I posted a comment on a DT-related Facebook page about how interesting it was that all songs would be much shorter this time (given the track count) and some random dude started claiming I wasn't a true DT fan because "they obviously only write long songs and I obviously had no clue what I was talking about" :rollin
I wonder what that guy has to say about that now. :lol
-
A concept album/song consists around common themes that are achieved either instrumentally, lyrically or compositionally. We ALL know about the concepts in Octavarium (and shame on DT fans that don't know). With Black Clouds the theme lyrically was about life events each of the members went through and SDOIT was about mental illness. So yes Octavarium and Black Clouds are indeed concept albums while SDOIT is a concept song.
No. A concept album tells a lyrical story throughout the whole album. None of those albums have that. In DT's catalog, only SFaM and TA are concept albums. Even though certain melodies of songs might be reused in other songs (something MP in particular loved to do), this does not make a whole album featuring these songs a concept album.
Had disc 2 of SDoIT been released on it's own, then it might be considered a concept album, but even then there would be some debate, since the stories for each individual are not interconnected with each other.
In interviews around the time it was released, MP himself stated that 8v is *not* a concept album, but rather that it was thematic, comparing it to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon, which is also *not* a concept album.
Most of the songs in BCaSL follow a similar theme, but none of them are related to each other. And ARoP doesn't fit the theme whatsoever. So no.
Awake for example has the A Mind Beside Itself suite, but that doesn't make it a concept album (unless you buy the Spider-Man theories :P).
WAT
-
True, popular music has had a song-oriented approach in majority, but one of the things I like about the whole "progressive" philosophy is that of trying to take stuff from other genres, styles and ways of thinking music.
That's actually a great description for Progressive Metal, and how I happen to see the term "Progressive Metal".
I'll add it's taking these other musical theory ideas, and utilizing them within the Metal genre.
Back on topic, I don't think TA being marketed as a concept album had much of an effect on expectations, as there were several things revealed before release that made it clear that it wasn't going to be something like Octavarium where the concept is purely thematic. Off the top of my head, I remember the character portraits being introduced, the map of the Northern Empire being revealed, the setting of the story being briefly explained, the whole "choose your side" thing being the very first thing we knew about it, & of course, the tracklist having far more songs than any other DT album before it. I think you would have to be a very casual fan to not realise that this was going to be a story-based rock opera & not just a thematic concept album.
Thank You. That's what I said too. I don't understand, if you actually did follow the release, how you can not expect the story and concept was going to be this massive Rock Opera.
I guess my question is, what do others consider a concept album? While Octavarium didn't start out as a concept album, it sure turned into one. The theme of using the numbers 8 and 5, is all over the place and even the album jacket is littered with the references. This is obviously not an accident.
It sounds like people only accept a concept album as telling a story throughput the album
That is what a concept album is known as though. What you are talking about with Octavarium and 6DOIT, and even ToT, is, what I would consider, Thematic Albums. 6DOIT has the theme of "Human Struggles". TGP being Personal Addictions, BF Spiritual Struggles, Misunderstood Communication Struggles, TGD World Problems, and Disappear The Final Struggle, all the while ending with the massive 42-min Epic 6DOIT about Struggles of the Human Psyche.
But it is funny though, thematic albums could be considered concept albums by the definition of "Concept". It states "Organized around a main idea or THEME". So, Thematic is a concept album.
The difference I feel is Rock Opera and Concept Album. Are what we consider "Concept Albums" in actuality "Rock Operas". As they have characters, a setting, a plot, a narrative to be told. For me to consider an album a "Rock Opera", it has to have these things, along with having the ability to be turned into an actual Opera or Musical. Hadestown is a great example of this, it went from an album, and expanded extensively into a Musical. Some "Rock Operas", turned into "Movie Productions", Tommy, The Wall, Subterranea, Imaginarium , Transitus ( :biggrin: Those videos got me wanting one).
-
Awake for example has the A Mind Beside Itself suite, but that doesn't make it a concept album (unless you buy the Spider-Man theories :P).
WAT
It's an old running joke on this forum. I can't seem to access the original thread, but here (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=11883.0) is the oldest thread I can find with people talking about it, which has a post quoting the post where it originated.
-
But it is funny though, thematic albums could be considered concept albums by the definition of "Concept". It states "Organized around a main idea or THEME". So, Thematic is a concept album.
I see what you're saying and according to the dictionary definition, you're right. But that's the same as saying that "alternative" music is any form of music that's not the mainstream, because that's what "alternative" means in the dictionary. And yet alternative is a specific genre of music, and has been since the 90s. The same thing is true as to what a "concept album" is, like it or not.
It's an old running joke on this forum. I can't seem to access the original thread, but here (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=11883.0) is the oldest thread I can find with people talking about it, which has a post quoting the post where it originated.
Will check it out later. :tup
-
But it is funny though, thematic albums could be considered concept albums by the definition of "Concept". It states "Organized around a main idea or THEME". So, Thematic is a concept album.
I see what you're saying and according to the dictionary definition, you're right. But that's the same as saying that "alternative" music is any form of music that's not the mainstream, because that's what "alternative" means in the dictionary. And yet alternative is a genre of music, and has been since the 90s. The same thing is true as to what a "concept album" is, like it or not.
Yup. I even said that in the same post. :lol That's why it's funny.
-
But it is funny though, thematic albums could be considered concept albums by the definition of "Concept". It states "Organized around a main idea or THEME". So, Thematic is a concept album.
I see what you're saying and according to the dictionary definition, you're right. But that's the same as saying that "alternative" music is any form of music that's not the mainstream, because that's what "alternative" means in the dictionary. And yet alternative is a genre of music, and has been since the 90s. The same thing is true as to what a "concept album" is, like it or not.
Yup. I even said that in the same post. :lol That's why it's funny.
D'oh! That's what I get for misreading part of your post late at night! :facepalm:
-
Scott, I am shocked that you have been so close to MP all these years, and never knew Awake was a concept album about Spiderman. I seriously call your fandom into question. What next? You gonna try and tell us you didn't know BCSL is a concept album about cannibalism?
-
Scott, I am shocked that you have been so close to MP all these years, and never knew Awake was a concept album about Spiderman. I seriously call your fandom into question. What next? You gonna try and tell us you didn't know BCSL is a concept album about cannibalism?
:rollin
I better hand in my card. I'm obviously not the fan I once was! :omg:
-
So no - I don't accept you all's definition of what a concept album is. If you look at the history of concept albums they are exactly how I described. But since we are talking semantics, I guess we will not agree.
As far as the supposed genre of "alternative music" - I think those days have passed I remember when that style of music became a thing and it referred to other forms of music not being labeled as top 40. Other labels not being Capital or RCA but smaller labels, were signing other bands and having success (it was a good thing). In fact, Rush during this time period asked Nirvana around the Counterparts album to come on tour with them and they declined because they were and alternative band. Neil Peart mused that it was strange because they were charting in the top 40.
And so it goes......
-
So no - I don't accept you all's definition of what a concept album is.
You don't have to accept it, but that is the common definition, so you are kinda out of luck discussing it with music fans if you want to come up with your own custom meanings for commonly-understood terms.
-
Chosen (https://youtu.be/R4EMUUotedE)
My god, that ending with the video background. :omg: :omg: Also JLB is in pretty good form here for this song. :metal
I guess we just have to settle for this Bootleg Youtube compilation...
The Astonishing (https://youtu.be/IT92NO3pTnA)
-
So no - I don't accept you all's definition of what a concept album is.
You don't have to accept it, but that is the common definition, so you are kinda out of luck discussing it with music fans if you want to come up with your own custom meanings for commonly-understood terms.
No - the definition isn't a commonly understood term. In this case it's a subjective term and in terms of art, we can look at the art in any way we choose. That's what interpretation in all about.
-
:lol No, the definitions of words aren't subjective. They are what they are. You can subjectively interpret art however you choose. But the definitions of words aren't subject to your, or my, or anyone else's subjective interpretation. That isn't how language works.
-
;D
You were quick on this! I knew that would get your goat! :D
Yes language can be interpreted in different ways. Bear market - bear chases me. An album has a theme, an album has a concept........Shall I go on?
-
;D
You were quick on this! I knew that would get your goat! :D
Yes language can be interpreted in different ways. Bear market - bear chases me. An album has a theme, an album has a concept........Shall I go on?
Words can also change their meaning overtime. Some words don't even use, what once was common, definition of the word. Like...(I would say the word but I might get banned...)
Nowadays, "Concept Album" is termed as an album where there is a narrative, or a story, across the album. Sometimes connecting, sometimes not. People collectively define and view it as that definition, and it is what it is. Nothing you say will change that fact.
-
;D
You were quick on this! I knew that would get your goat! :D
Yes language can be interpreted in different ways. Bear market - bear chases me. An album has a theme, an album has a concept........Shall I go on?
Nah, the goat is in the pasture where it belongs. I just checked.
But thanks for making my point for me. Yes, a "bear market" has a specific meaning that has nothing whatsoever to do with an actual "bear" that might chase you. Same word, but a completely different usage that has a completely different meaning. Just like the term "concept album" has a completely different usage and meaning that "album that has a concept." None of those are subjective. They mean specific things. Again, that's how words work.
-
Chosen (https://youtu.be/R4EMUUotedE)
My god, that ending with the video background. :omg: :omg: Also JLB is in pretty good form here for this song. :metal
I guess we just have to settle for this Bootleg Youtube compilation...
The Astonishing (https://youtu.be/IT92NO3pTnA)
Yep, and that brings up another point: The Astonishing tour, based on all of the footage I have seen and the few shows I have been to, is by far the best JLB has sounded live in the last 10 years, probably because most of the songs on that album are in the range where he sounds best. Would have been cool to get that documented.
-
Chosen (https://youtu.be/R4EMUUotedE)
My god, that ending with the video background. :omg: :omg: Also JLB is in pretty good form here for this song. :metal
I guess we just have to settle for this Bootleg Youtube compilation...
The Astonishing (https://youtu.be/IT92NO3pTnA)
Yep, and that brings up another point: The Astonishing tour, based on all of the footage I have seen and the few shows I have been to, is by far the best JLB has sounded live in the last 10 years, probably because most of the songs on that album are in the range where he sounds best. Would have been cool to get that documented.
Yeah. He was fantastic. Ironically, it was on a tour that many didn't see because they didn't like the album. Also, these songs were really suited for his range, and didn't call for him to go all out and high with his vocals.
I am one of those that is disappointed we didn't get a live album. But life is a bitch. (I like how Michael Kiske said that after Keeper of The Seven Keys, from Live at Wacken. Apparently, he was sick and man, even though he tried, he just couldn't hit those highs, and he knew it, and felt bad for the crowd).
-
Michael Kiske is my favorite vocalist! EASILY!
-
Michael Kiske is my favorite vocalist! EASILY!
I felt bad for those Wacken fans that only went to see Helloween. :lol
-
Michael Kiske is my favorite vocalist! EASILY!
I felt bad for those Wacken fans that only went to see Helloween. :lol
What do you mean?
-
Michael Kiske is my favorite vocalist! EASILY!
I felt bad for those Wacken fans that only went to see Helloween. :lol
What do you mean?
Because Michael Kiske was sick, and just sounded horrible. Nevertheless he gave it his all still. :tup
-
I totally understand why they didn't film and release a show from the Astonishing tour, but watching Distant Memories last night, I definitely felt a bit sad that they never documented one of those shows.
-
I totally understand why they didn't film and release a show from the Astonishing tour, but watching Distant Memories last night, I definitely felt a bit sad that they never documented one of those shows.
I wish they had recorded the show we caught in Durham!
-
MM just posted a fun video from the TA sessions of him just messing around with some polyrhythms that never made it to the album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XT2vy_IaXY
-
:lol Why does MM playing like that always sound like someone who's never played drums before ?
-
Yea :lol the start of the video I thought "hey this is what I sound like playing drums"
-
:lol Why does MM playing like that always sound like someone who's never played drums before ?
I don't think he was really playing the drums, he lightly plays to get a sense of the Poly rhythm.
-
:lol Why does MM playing like that always sound like someone who's never played drums before ?
:rollin
Yea :lol the start of the video I thought "hey this is what I sound like playing drums"
:rollin
His third snippet/poly rhythm thing was pretty cool and natural sounding though.
-
:lol Why does MM playing like that always sound like someone who's never played drums before ?
I know this is a light hearted comment (and a funny one, of course), but it's kinda unfair in a larger musical scope. It's like implying that someone playing XX century atonal piano music sounds like someone who's never played the piano before (and I would understand such a comment lol), but that's certainly not the case. MM is very much like a curious kid in a science lab, trying of things just for the sake of learning stuff and seeing what happens and that's something I really like of him.
-
I was responding to a post and then it got too long and off-topic, So I cut it and decided to post it here, as it serves more of a better discussion here.
The Astonishing story really calls for that style of music it's written in. I feel people wanted that Epic, War type, song of the war within The Astonishing story. But, it's not the focal point of the album, hence why it's placed in the background, only shown through the training sounds of swords clashing, and usually when Ahrys is speaking, his theme is mainly the army, militia theme of rebellion. He's the one who wants the war, Gabriel just wants to play guitar, basically. And Faythe having just discovered the Music Player, on their family survey of Ravenskill, got infatuated with Gabriel with his long hair flowing in the wind...(That's what I picture when I hear "Could my destiny, Be right in front of me?") :lol :lol
If you want to see how bad the war between Ravenskill and The Great Northen Empire was, the book begins right off the bat, with a prelude that is a war scene. It's where we are introduced to Evangeline and the birth of Xander. It's really sad, and messed up, how the NOMACS played a part in her death. Talk about an intense introduction.
-
How do we know the band didn't record any shows from The Astonishing tour?
-
How do we know the band didn't record any shows from The Astonishing tour?
We do know it was never filmed professionally, otherwise they would have announced it ahead of time. There might be a few audience filmed gigs floating around but extremely hard to find. The band and the venues were really adamant about the NO CAMERA rule on that tour. There are probably a few soundboard recordings and perhaps crew-shot videos, but will never see the light of day to be released or unofficially released.
-
The fact that there is no video for this is nothing short of (wait for it)
Astonishing!
Sorry - I couldn't help myself...
-
How do we know the band didn't record any shows from The Astonishing tour?
We do know it was never filmed professionally, otherwise they would have announced it ahead of time. There might be a few audience filmed gigs floating around but extremely hard to find. The band and the venues were really adamant about the NO CAMERA rule on that tour. There are probably a few soundboard recordings and perhaps crew-shot videos, but will never see the light of day to be released or unofficially released.
Yeah, there's no professionally recorded video, but afaik they record audio for every single show they do. They could easily release one of those shows as an official bootleg if they wanted to.
-
How do we know the band didn't record any shows from The Astonishing tour?
We do know it was never filmed professionally, otherwise they would have announced it ahead of time. There might be a few audience filmed gigs floating around but extremely hard to find. The band and the venues were really adamant about the NO CAMERA rule on that tour. There are probably a few soundboard recordings and perhaps crew-shot videos, but will never see the light of day to be released or unofficially released.
Yeah, there's no professionally recorded video, but afaik they record audio for every single show they do. They could easily release one of those shows as an official bootleg if they wanted to.
Totally would be up for an official bootleg. Might even make the most sense to release it that way.
-
How do we know the band didn't record any shows from The Astonishing tour?
We do know it was never filmed professionally, otherwise they would have announced it ahead of time. There might be a few audience filmed gigs floating around but extremely hard to find. The band and the venues were really adamant about the NO CAMERA rule on that tour. There are probably a few soundboard recordings and perhaps crew-shot videos, but will never see the light of day to be released or unofficially released.
Yeah, there's no professionally recorded video, but afaik they record audio for every single show they do. They could easily release one of those shows as an official bootleg if they wanted to.
Totally would be up for an official bootleg. Might even make the most sense to release it that way.
Even if they had a single camera angle on a mounted tripod in the sound booth, I'd happily take that with whatever came out of the sound board. If for nothing more than to have a semi-decent version of the extended (original) outro of A New Beginning.
-
How do we know the band didn't record any shows from The Astonishing tour?
We do know it was never filmed professionally, otherwise they would have announced it ahead of time. There might be a few audience filmed gigs floating around but extremely hard to find. The band and the venues were really adamant about the NO CAMERA rule on that tour. There are probably a few soundboard recordings and perhaps crew-shot videos, but will never see the light of day to be released or unofficially released.
Yeah, there's no professionally recorded video, but afaik they record audio for every single show they do. They could easily release one of those shows as an official bootleg if they wanted to.
Totally would be up for an official bootleg. Might even make the most sense to release it that way.
Even if they had a single camera angle on a mounted tripod in the sound booth, I'd happily take that with whatever came out of the sound board. If for nothing more than to have a semi-decent version of the extended (original) outro of A New Beginning.
I actually wouldn't mind getting the intro narration as a digital download.
But I will say. Unless you have a good system. Those NOMAC tracks won't do justice at all. Man those were the best because after reading the prologue to the book. That's exactly, if not louder, how the NOMACS sounded.
-
If I recall, before Led Zeppelin released How the West Was Won they reached out to the general public to request old video footage which they then restored.
DT could go through a similar process and augment live video footage with video animation. It might be cost prohibitive though but I bet that the DT fandom would overwhelmingly love this even if some aren't a fan of TA. Who knows, it might bring critics of TA back from the dark side.
-
If I recall, before Led Zeppelin released How the West Was Won they reached out to the general public to request old video footage which they then restored.
DT could go through a similar process and augment live video footage with video animation. It might be cost prohibitive though but I bet that the DT fandom would overwhelmingly love this even if some aren't a fan of TA. Who knows, it might bring critics of TA back from the dark side.
I would love that! There are some audience videos on youtube of TA. They could sync that up with better quality soundboard recordings. It might be possible since the live show is played to a click. It would be cool if they had some hardcore fan who is really into it to put it together. However, very unlikely.
-
If I recall, before Led Zeppelin released How the West Was Won they reached out to the general public to request old video footage which they then restored.
DT could go through a similar process and augment live video footage with video animation. It might be cost prohibitive though but I bet that the DT fandom would overwhelmingly love this even if some aren't a fan of TA. Who knows, it might bring critics of TA back from the dark side.
I would love that! There are some audience videos on youtube of TA. They could sync that up with better quality soundboard recordings. It might be possible since the live show is played to a click. It would be cool if they had some hardcore fan who is really into it to put it together. However, very unlikely.
They could have done that with ease had it not been for the cellphone restrictions. There's a shockingly small amount of old footage from the tour on YouTube.
-
You know what I really wish we had...
Instrumental Versions of Act of Faythe, Chosen, and Losing Faythe.
-
Now that the band has used Bandcamp for their holiday release, they should use that more. This is a great format for things that we would consider for Official Bootlegs. Except now there is no overhead. Put a small price and let fans pay more if they want.
-
Now that the band has used Bandcamp for their holiday release, they should use that more. This is a great format for things that we would consider for Official Bootlegs. Except now there is no overhead. Put a small price and let fans pay more if they want.
I like your thinking.
-
Now that the band has used Bandcamp for their holiday release, they should use that more. This is a great format for things that we would consider for Official Bootlegs. Except now there is no overhead. Put a small price and let fans pay more if they want.
I'd definitely buy those, specially since Bandcamp offers high quality downloads.
-
How do we know the band didn't record any shows from The Astonishing tour?
We do know it was never filmed professionally, otherwise they would have announced it ahead of time. There might be a few audience filmed gigs floating around but extremely hard to find. The band and the venues were really adamant about the NO CAMERA rule on that tour. There are probably a few soundboard recordings and perhaps crew-shot videos, but will never see the light of day to be released or unofficially released.
Yeah, there's no professionally recorded video, but afaik they record audio for every single show they do. They could easily release one of those shows as an official bootleg if they wanted to.
Totally would be up for an official bootleg. Might even make the most sense to release it that way.
Even if they had a single camera angle on a mounted tripod in the sound booth, I'd happily take that with whatever came out of the sound board. If for nothing more than to have a semi-decent version of the extended (original) outro of A New Beginning.
That would be great too.
-
Brought this over here, because I want to say more about The Astonishing and don't want to further derail that thread.
Also, it was an incredible live/theater experience. I've seen DT live probably around 9 or 10 times and the Astonishing concert has been one of my favorites. I enjoyed it so much that I bought tickets for an extra night in Mexico City after a wonderful first night (I had only the plan of going to one of the two dates). It was really different, in a good way.
Same here. I saw both US legs. Which sucked for me, because the songs that got cut, are ones I really enjoy and they were amazing live. Especially, The X Aspect.
This song, is describing Arhys' tough decision he has been dealt. The decision of whether to betray his brother in order for his son to live a better life, a promise he made to Evangeline. The music describes this exact feeling of despair and the feeling of having to make this tough decision, as the choice made really isn't that great either way, hence why it is a tough decision.
The opening piano of The X Aspect, really describes that setting of being in the house, on a nice, cool night, with the moonlight peeking through the window on a table, where Arhys is sitting, while looking at Xander and pondering. I hear the boys choir here, and it's what made me imagine that Arhys is looking at xander with that look every parent gives their child. When the lyrics come in, it's Arhys discussing with himself this desperate decision he now has to make. As the music here intensifies and is culminated into "Evangeline, I swore to you, to love and guide our son" it's his plea and realization, and has come to the conclusion that "a better life is worth this sacrifice". The bagpipes at the end, along with the boys choir, is him looking at Xander again with, sad eyes.
-
The X Aspect is one of the most incredible pieces of music in Dream Theater's catalog, IMO.
-
The X Aspect is one of the most incredible pieces of music in Dream Theater's catalog, IMO.
Yup...It is...I actually like that about the entirety of The Astonishing.
Also from 3:00 on in A Better Life, the piano underneath, is reminiscent of the piano in The X Aspect intro. And from this point on, is where Arhys made promise to Evangeline, and why I think, this part is similar to The X Aspect. There are similarities in the Boys Choir, The build-up to "Evangeline..." and the piano underneath. These may possibly be the themes of Xander and Evangeline, as they relate to Arhys.
-
Question - is there any fan based animation to TA or would that be a massive copyright infringement?
-
While watching Lord Nefaryus Live. The background video really best describes what happens within that song really well. The part I like is, when They begin their journey from their palace in the Empire "Into the far off reaches of the land, to witness this great spectacle first hand." And then they introduce his family, as he describes whom is with him to meet "The Saviour". And also, when they show the Vast Land, with the overview shot of the trees, that pans to the magnificent mountainous valley. I love that they did that...Really helps you vision the story. Which is what I do when I listen to pretty much all concept albums, that have a narrative.
Usually, when I just let the music be what it is, and take it as it is presented. I can hear and feel more of the emotions in the music. And the reasons why that part was made that way, and why it relates to what is happening within the story being told. Also, the way it's narrated can also become present. I will then snap, they meant for it to presented this way. Sometimes, it's like a radio show, sometimes, like a movie film. Other times, like an old-school horror story. Imagine if they were to make concept albums with VR attached.... :omg: :omg: :omg: :omg:
Question - is there any fan based animation to TA or would that be a massive copyright infringement?
Not that I have found. And I really doubt someone would take that amount of time to do one. But I don't see why there aren't any songs, that have animated clips along with the songs. I think that would be neat. If I knew how to do it, I likely would've made one, but I wouldn't guarantee I would have made one either.
You know...I do kind of wish the band released just the live background videos and put those up on Youtube with the studio songs.
That could be how they got the idea to do that with DoT. Saves time to create and plan what is going to be played on the screen during that song live.
-
While watching Lord Nefaryus Live. The background video really best describes what happens within that song really well. The part I like is, when They begin their journey from their palace in the Empire "Into the far off reaches of the land, to witness this great spectacle first hand." And then they introduce his family, as he describes whom is with him to meet "The Saviour". And also, when they show the Vast Land, with the overview shot of the trees, that pans to the magnificent mountainous valley. I love that they did that...Really helps you vision the story. Which is what I do when I listen to pretty much all concept albums, that have a narrative.
Usually, when I just let the music be what it is, and take it as it is presented. I can hear and feel more of the emotions in the music. And the reasons why that part was made that way, and why it relates to what is happening within the story being told. Also, the way it's narrated can also become present. I will then snap, they meant for it to presented this way. Sometimes, it's like a radio show, sometimes, like a movie film. Other times, like an old-school horror story. Imagine if they were to make concept albums with VR attached.... :omg: :omg: :omg: :omg:
Question - is there any fan based animation to TA or would that be a massive copyright infringement?
Not that I have found. And I really doubt someone would take that amount of time to do one. But I don't see why there aren't any songs, that have animated clips along with the songs. I think that would be neat. If I knew how to do it, I likely would've made one, but I wouldn't guarantee I would have made one either.
You know...I do kind of wish the band released just the live background videos and put those up on Youtube with the studio songs.
That could be how they got the idea to do that with DoT. Saves time to create and plan what is going to be played on the screen during that song live.
Yeah - and that was where I was eventually going to go with my question. I cannot imagine it would be that difficult to piece together animation even with the studio version of the songs. I know I would buy it.
-
I respect the band immensely for the sheer effort that went into it. However, after trying too many times to count, I have to accept that it is my least favorite DT album. While many people love James performance, I just can't get into it. Also, far too many uber slow sections, which isn't a bad thing if they hold my interest but on this album, they don't grab me or keep me interested.
I don't like using the word "filler" because it kind of denotes laziness, but to me that's what all those "uber slow sections" sound like.
-
I saw both US legs. Which sucked for me, because the songs that got cut, are ones I really enjoy and they were amazing live. Especially, The X Aspect.
I saw both legs as well. And while I also really enjoyed the songs that got cut, I didn't look at the set modification as a downer, because the new songs, while "overplayed," were really fun at the show I attended. People started an actual mosh pit during Pull Me Under, and everybody was laughing and smiling.
-
I saw both US legs. Which sucked for me, because the songs that got cut, are ones I really enjoy and they were amazing live. Especially, The X Aspect.
I saw both legs as well. And while I also really enjoyed the songs that got cut, I didn't look at the set modification as a downer, because the new songs, while "overplayed," were really fun at the show I attended. People started an actual mosh pit during Pull Me Under, and everybody was laughing and smiling.
It was my first time getting to see TSCO. And since that show I've seen it at all shows I attended since, except 1. And oddly, that was my local show on the I&W&B tour.
So that was a treat for me during my second leg of the tour.
-
I saw both US legs. Which sucked for me, because the songs that got cut, are ones I really enjoy and they were amazing live. Especially, The X Aspect.
I saw both legs as well. And while I also really enjoyed the songs that got cut, I didn't look at the set modification as a downer, because the new songs, while "overplayed," were really fun at the show I attended. People started an actual mosh pit during Pull Me Under, and everybody was laughing and smiling.
A memory that never gets old! :metal
Interestingly, I saw the modified show in Anaheim, no moshing there!
-
:lol I was hoping you'd see that and chime in. :)
-
Bosk, If I remember right weren't you at the Reno show? I was really contemplating making the trip from Wa State for that gig. It would have been a good excuse for me to finally visit Lake Tahoe, but things didn't work out as planned.
-
Yeah, I was there. I saw that show there, their show on the second leg of the DoT tour, and the last G3 tour. I think I've posted here about how cool it was to have been talking to my current favorite guitar player (JP) after the show and then have my first ever guitar hero (Phil Collen) walk into the room.
I really like that venue a lot. Given the choice, I would probably travel there over a Bay Area gig any time (unless there are severe snow storms that make that drive dangerous--which was the case for that TA show). If you ever do plan to come down to see a show there, let me know.
-
That would be awesome! I will certainly let you know if that happens. :coolio
-
Five whole years since release this week, it's amazing, or perhaps astonishing, that it's been that long. So to commemorate, I decided to listen to The Astonishing, an album I've not been particularly keen on, and have been massively critical towards. This might be the first time I've listened in 2 years. I'm listening to an abridged version I got from someone here years ago, with a couple of tweaks I made. It's about 75 minutes long, includes all the NOMAC tracks, cuts much of the filler (to me) out, keeps all the strong tunes in place, and is WAY more enjoyable to listen to than I ever remember listening to the full version of TA. I recall the whole album having a lot of tracks with slow piano intros and other uninteresting music/sound effects, but this abridged version is quite energetic, diverse in sounds, seems to have cut out a lot of the cheesy Disney Theater moments. This abridged version flows well and allows me to focus on the good stuff more.
If this was the final album, I would be less critical of the album, and I would praise it as the best DT album of the Mangini era and one that I would argue could stand with any Portnoy era album, at least since FII. TA is a great example of where an outside producer could have come in an helped whittle the album down a bit. I always felt that the album was way too bloated and really brought it down for me, and when it came out, it really solidified my disappointment in Dream Theater's music post-Portnoy.
-
Five whole years since release this week, it's amazing, or perhaps astonishing, that it's been that long. So to commemorate, I decided to listen to The Astonishing, an album I've not been particularly keen on, and have been massively critical towards. This might be the first time I've listened in 2 years. I'm listening to an abridged version I got from someone here years ago, with a couple of tweaks I made. It's about 75 minutes long, includes all the NOMAC tracks, cuts much of the filler (to me) out, keeps all the strong tunes in place, and is WAY more enjoyable to listen to than I ever remember listening to the full version of TA. I recall the whole album having a lot of tracks with slow piano intros and other uninteresting music/sound effects, but this abridged version is quite energetic, diverse in sounds, seems to have cut out a lot of the cheesy Disney Theater moments. This abridged version flows well and allows me to focus on the good stuff more.
If this was the final album, I would be less critical of the album, and I would praise it as the best DT album of the Mangini era and one that I would argue could stand with any Portnoy era album, at least since FII. TA is a great example of where an outside producer could have come in an helped whittle the album down a bit. I always felt that the album was way too bloated and really brought it down for me, and when it came out, it really solidified my disappointment in Dream Theater's music post-Portnoy.
How would you have felt if JP released it under a different label? Basically, gave it a Savatage --> Trans-Siberian Orchestra treatment.
Now I think about it, Christmas Eve( Saravejo) is a fantastic example of how a simple label change can affect a persons perspective. In this case, Savatage fans know what to expect with Trans-Siberian Orchestra, casual fans whom just listened to Trans-Siberian Orchestra do Christmas Eve (Saravejo) expect a christmas cover rock orchestra, not orginial music. And Yet, Trans-Siberian Orchestra is more well known than Savatage.
I just like how you said, I'm listening to The Astonishing to commemorate, and then go to say an Abridged Version. :lol :lol
-
Five whole years since release this week, it's amazing, or perhaps astonishing, that it's been that long. So to commemorate, I decided to listen to The Astonishing, an album I've not been particularly keen on, and have been massively critical towards. This might be the first time I've listened in 2 years. I'm listening to an abridged version I got from someone here years ago, with a couple of tweaks I made. It's about 75 minutes long, includes all the NOMAC tracks, cuts much of the filler (to me) out, keeps all the strong tunes in place, and is WAY more enjoyable to listen to than I ever remember listening to the full version of TA. I recall the whole album having a lot of tracks with slow piano intros and other uninteresting music/sound effects, but this abridged version is quite energetic, diverse in sounds, seems to have cut out a lot of the cheesy Disney Theater moments. This abridged version flows well and allows me to focus on the good stuff more.
If this was the final album, I would be less critical of the album, and I would praise it as the best DT album of the Mangini era and one that I would argue could stand with any Portnoy era album, at least since FII. TA is a great example of where an outside producer could have come in an helped whittle the album down a bit. I always felt that the album was way too bloated and really brought it down for me, and when it came out, it really solidified my disappointment in Dream Theater's music post-Portnoy.
How would you have felt if JP released it under a different label? Basically, gave it a Savatage --> Trans-Siberian Orchestra treatment.
Now I think about it, Christmas Eve( Saravejo) is a fantastic example of how a simple label change can affect a persons perspective. In this case, Savatage fans know what to expect with Trans-Siberian Orchestra, casual fans whom just listened to Trans-Siberian Orchestra do Christmas Eve (Saravejo) expect a christmas cover rock orchestra, not orginial music. And Yet, Trans-Siberian Orchestra is more well known than Savatage.
I just like how you said, I'm listening to The Astonishing to commemorate, and then go to say an Abridged Version. :lol :lol
I would appreciate it more if it was
John Petrucci & Jordan Rudess
Presents:
A Dream Theater Production
"THE ASTONISHING"
feat. Kevin James LaBrie
Yea, but mostly because I have no desire to listen to the whole thing.
-
Five whole years since release this week, it's amazing, or perhaps astonishing, that it's been that long. So to commemorate, I decided to listen to The Astonishing, an album I've not been particularly keen on, and have been massively critical towards. This might be the first time I've listened in 2 years. I'm listening to an abridged version I got from someone here years ago, with a couple of tweaks I made. It's about 75 minutes long, includes all the NOMAC tracks, cuts much of the filler (to me) out, keeps all the strong tunes in place, and is WAY more enjoyable to listen to than I ever remember listening to the full version of TA. I recall the whole album having a lot of tracks with slow piano intros and other uninteresting music/sound effects, but this abridged version is quite energetic, diverse in sounds, seems to have cut out a lot of the cheesy Disney Theater moments. This abridged version flows well and allows me to focus on the good stuff more.
If this was the final album, I would be less critical of the album, and I would praise it as the best DT album of the Mangini era and one that I would argue could stand with any Portnoy era album, at least since FII. TA is a great example of where an outside producer could have come in an helped whittle the album down a bit. I always felt that the album was way too bloated and really brought it down for me, and when it came out, it really solidified my disappointment in Dream Theater's music post-Portnoy.
How would you have felt if JP released it under a different label? Basically, gave it a Savatage --> Trans-Siberian Orchestra treatment.
Now I think about it, Christmas Eve( Saravejo) is a fantastic example of how a simple label change can affect a persons perspective. In this case, Savatage fans know what to expect with Trans-Siberian Orchestra, casual fans whom just listened to Trans-Siberian Orchestra do Christmas Eve (Saravejo) expect a christmas cover rock orchestra, not orginial music. And Yet, Trans-Siberian Orchestra is more well known than Savatage.
I just like how you said, I'm listening to The Astonishing to commemorate, and then go to say an Abridged Version. :lol :lol
I would appreciate it more if it was
John Petrucci & Jordan Rudess
Presents:
A Dream Theater Production
"THE ASTONISHING"
feat. Kevin James LaBrie
Yea, but mostly because I have no desire to listen to the whole thing.
It'd still be the same music, and the same exact album. So why would a name affect how you perceive the album? And I find that an odd thing of the mind, how a label can affect your enjoyment of the music, even though it's the same exact music just labeled differently.
-
With all due respect, any suggestion that the band should have released TA under anything other than the Dream Theater is kooky talk. It was written by members of Dream Theater and performed by Dream Theater. It is as much a Dream Theater album as any of the other 13.
-
With all due respect, any suggestion that the band should have released TA under anything other than the Dream Theater is kooky talk. It was written by members of Dream Theater and performed by Dream Theater. It is as much a Dream Theater album as any of the other 13.
Yea but I look at WDADU as Majesty's one and only album, especially since that it was originally intended to be a Majesty album, IaW as the band's true debut, Six Degrees suite as an album in and of itself within another album, and LTE 1 and 2 as quasi Dream Theater albums as it's 3/4 of 00s DT and they had no problem injecting some of that stuff into their live shows. So I also look at TA as a Dream Theater-related production featuring all the current members of the band because it's far removed from a typical Dream Theater album and is more or less JP's baby. I also don't hear evolution in the band's sound on TA, it's like they took the DT12 sound and Disneyfied it and presented it as a Broadway production soundtrack, whereas DoT sounds more like a follow-up to DT12, and "the next chapter in the story."
-
With all due respect, any suggestion that the band should have released TA under anything other than the Dream Theater is kooky talk. It was written by members of Dream Theater and performed by Dream Theater. It is as much a Dream Theater album as any of the other 13.
Exactly. I agree it still is a Dream Theater album. And I do hear Dream Theater when I listen to it. It just didn't fit in with people's perceptions of what they expect Dream Theater to be, and what they expect from Dream Theater. Those are what I do not have, and do not have with any band. Being labeled Progressive is a double edged sword, because you are able to experiment, but then that experimentation may be the sharper edge of that sword, and if you don't experiment, you are now "Playing it safe" the duller side of the sword.
It's why I am just laughing at all the Steven Wilson fans who feel forsaken by Steven for making The Future Bites. I think that concept and the music style Steven Wilson used, along with the lyrics, is damn genius, it's perfect. And the music video for Personal Shopper, best shows that concept exactly, and the style of music used for that song, and using a high profile celebrity musician just to say things from a shopping list is brilliant.
-
With all due respect, any suggestion that the band should have released TA under anything other than the Dream Theater is kooky talk. It was written by members of Dream Theater and performed by Dream Theater. It is as much a Dream Theater album as any of the other 13.
Yea but I look at WDADU as Majesty's one and only album, especially since that it was originally intended to be a Majesty album, IaW as the band's true debut, Six Degrees suite as an album in and of itself within another album, and LTE 1 and 2 as quasi Dream Theater albums as it's 3/4 of 00s DT and they had no problem injecting some of that stuff into their live shows. So I also look at TA as a Dream Theater-related production featuring all the current members of the band because it's far removed from a typical Dream Theater album and is more or less JP's baby. I also don't hear evolution in the band's sound on TA, it's like they took the DT12 sound and Disneyfied it and presented it as a Broadway production soundtrack, whereas DoT sounds more like a follow-up to DT12.
Again Labels...
If that had been released as Majesty, we wouldn't have no Dream Theater.
-
With all due respect, any suggestion that the band should have released TA under anything other than the Dream Theater is kooky talk. It was written by members of Dream Theater and performed by Dream Theater. It is as much a Dream Theater album as any of the other 13.
Yea but I look at WDADU as Majesty's one and only album, especially since that it was originally intended to be a Majesty album, IaW as the band's true debut, Six Degrees suite as an album in and of itself within another album, and LTE 1 and 2 as quasi Dream Theater albums as it's 3/4 of 00s DT and they had no problem injecting some of that stuff into their live shows. So I also look at TA as a Dream Theater-related production featuring all the current members of the band because it's far removed from a typical Dream Theater album and is more or less JP's baby. I also don't hear evolution in the band's sound on TA, it's like they took the DT12 sound and Disneyfied it and presented it as a Broadway production soundtrack, whereas DoT sounds more like a follow-up to DT12.
Again Labels...
If that had been released as Majesty, we wouldn't have no Dream Theater.
Yea, but the name change was forced on the band, after the album was completed and artwork already made. Having a different singer, one not nearly as talented as JLB, a recording that was amateurish compared to any of the other albums, a band that still had that high school band sound to them, where they hadn't developed their song writing craft quite well yet, it sounds more like a demo than a proper album. Then almost 4 years before IaW?? A young band like that in the late 80s/early 90s should have put out another 2 albums in that time, but instead they worked on new material to perfection, and waited for a new singer who could handle their style of music, while working under a new band name. So for all intents and purposes, IaW is the debut of Dream Theater.
-
With all due respect, any suggestion that the band should have released TA under anything other than the Dream Theater is kooky talk. It was written by members of Dream Theater and performed by Dream Theater. It is as much a Dream Theater album as any of the other 13.
Yea but I look at WDADU as Majesty's one and only album, especially since that it was originally intended to be a Majesty album, IaW as the band's true debut, Six Degrees suite as an album in and of itself within another album, and LTE 1 and 2 as quasi Dream Theater albums as it's 3/4 of 00s DT and they had no problem injecting some of that stuff into their live shows. So I also look at TA as a Dream Theater-related production featuring all the current members of the band because it's far removed from a typical Dream Theater album and is more or less JP's baby. I also don't hear evolution in the band's sound on TA, it's like they took the DT12 sound and Disneyfied it and presented it as a Broadway production soundtrack, whereas DoT sounds more like a follow-up to DT12, and "the next chapter in the story."
Can you give an explanation to "evolution of sound" and what you would have done differently to make the "sound" different other than making a different playlist?
-
Yea but I look at WDADU as Majesty's one and only album, especially since that it was originally intended to be a Majesty album,
Irrelevent.
Or can we say Scenes from a Memory is not a real DT album because Metropolis Part 2 was originally intended to be part of Falling into Infinity?
So I also look at TA as a Dream Theater-related production featuring all the current members of the band because it's far removed from a typical Dream Theater album and is more or less JP's baby.
Was Space Dye Vest not a real DT song despite featuring all of the current members of the band at the time because it was too far moved from a typical Dream Theater song and was Kevin Moore's baby?
Note: Mike Portnoy all but taking this stance years ago is irrelevant.
I also don't hear evolution in the band's sound on TA, it's like they took the DT12 sound and Disneyfied it and presented it as a Broadway production soundtrack, whereas DoT sounds more like a follow-up to DT12, and "the next chapter in the story."
Irrelevant.
-
Some people just have really odd ways of looking at things. :dunno:
-
The hate for The Astonishing just makes me love it even more. I never understand when people HATE an album simply because the band tries something new.
And not because the album in question is genuinely dreadful.
-
Ahh, The Astonishing. The gift that keeps on giving.
The hate for The Astonishing just makes me love it even more. I never understand when people HATE an album simply because the band tries something new.
I hear you.
People for years: It would be amazing if Jordan stopped needlessly wanking on his keyboard and played some laid back piano for a change.
*they put out The Astonishing*
People for years: It would be amazing if they explored more JLB's more mellow side, as that part of his voice is still very strong.
*they put out The Astonishing*
People for years: It would be amazing if they put out a concept album. Maybe a double album concept album that is super melody oriented.
*they put out The Astonishing*
People by the time TA was released: WTF is this.
-
Ahh, The Astonishing. The gift that keeps on giving.
The hate for The Astonishing just makes me love it even more. I never understand when people HATE an album simply because the band tries something new.
I hear you.
People for years: It would be amazing if Jordan stopped needlessly wanking on his keyboard and played some laid back piano for a change.
*they put out The Astonishing*
People for years: It would be amazing if they explored more JLB's more mellow side, as that part of his voice is still very strong.
*they put out The Astonishing*
People for years: It would be amazing if they put out a concept album. Maybe a double album concept album that super melody oriented.
*they put out The Astonishing*
People by the time TA was released: WTF is this.
Two things DT way underutilized for years....piano and JLB's range. The Astonishing gave us both.
-
Ahh, The Astonishing. The gift that keeps on giving.
The hate for The Astonishing just makes me love it even more. I never understand when people HATE an album simply because the band tries something new.
I hear you.
People for years: It would be amazing if Jordan stopped needlessly wanking on his keyboard and played some laid back piano for a change.
*they put out The Astonishing*
People for years: It would be amazing if they explored more JLB's more mellow side, as that part of his voice is still very strong.
*they put out The Astonishing*
People for years: It would be amazing if they put out a concept album. Maybe a double album concept album that super melody oriented.
*they put out The Astonishing*
People by the time TA was released: THAT'S NOT WHAT WE WANT.
fix'd :biggrin:
Expectations, man. They wanted an album exactly like SFAM, meaning, they were already basing The Astonishing and comparing it with SFAM. The fans were not expecting a full on Rock Opera. I expected a Rock Opera based on the descriptions the band gave. And I love how they decided to make the characters have Musical Themes, You can hear them with The Brother Theme, Faythes Theme, Nefaryus' Theme.
It's why I love Losing Faythe how it brings Gabriels, Faythes, and Nefaryus' Themes into one song, and also Anabelles and Xanders, Xanders Theme is when they bring in the Boys Choir, it's cool how Nefaryus sings Gabriels Theme, signifying the unity of Nefaryus for Gabriel to use his gift, He is singing Gabriels song to him so he can sing and bring Faythe back.
-
I love The Astonishing because they used my name for the main character/savior :biggrin:
-
My dislike for this album comes in no part from my expectations of it. By the time it was released, I was slowly starting to consider myself merely a casual fan of the band's new music. They were already becoming a band whose new material I would be sure to check out, but were no longer in my main radar necessarily. I wasn't going in expecting Metropolis Pt. 3, Scenes From a Memory Pt. 2 ", or a masterpiece or anything. But what I got was very much an album not for me.
-
I love The Astonishing because they used my name for the main character/savior :biggrin:
There's a character named Gzarruk?? How did I miss that?? :eek
-
While of course I understand that The Astonishing is not everyone's cup of tea, I can't see how it could be seen as anything else than a DT album.
It's their version of a rock opera... but it's still DT. Not even on my first listening I thought "wow, this is so completely different from everything they've ever done, if it was not for James singing I wouldn't even recognize the band".... heck no, the fact that Petrucci and Rudess wrote it and played on it is so evident and clear.
Judas Priest's Nostradamus was far more removed from Priest's usual sound that The Astonishing ever is.... you could take at least half of the songs and spread them over the other Mangini albums and they would fit nicely.
-
While of course I understand that The Astonishing is not everyone's cup of tea, I can't see how it could be seen as anything else than a DT album.
It's their version of a rock opera... but it's still DT. Not even on my first listening I thought "wow, this is so completely different from everything they've ever done, if it was not for James singing I wouldn't even recognize the band".... heck no, the fact that Petrucci and Rudess wrote it and played on it is so evident and clear.
Judas Priest's Nostradamus was far more removed from Priest's usual sound that The Astonishing ever is.... you could take at least half of the songs and spread them over the other Mangini albums and they would fit nicely.
The irony is in the lyrics though..."People just don't have the time for music anymore"
Which means, sitting down, listening to an entire album, without a concern of the outside world. And letting it take you on a journey, let the music take you on an experience.
See, I know that people listen to music differently. Mostly everyone listens to music for background noise, and just something to have on while doing work. Actually, listening to music directly without disruption requires time. People don't either have the time, due to work, or just don't want to put away what they feel like doing to listen to an album of music. They'd rather watch the movie and the video.
This is really more Broadway than Rock Opera, in the terms of approach. Each song is literally a scene, with a location and a time of day. I think JP had this in mind when writing, and him and JR had it in mind to compose it, so they wouldn't have to tinker much, if it does get a theater production with a cast.
Unlike Hadestown which went through some major changes and adding songs. But, I prefer the album and also enjoy the broadway theater production.
I've been to actual Operas at our Santa Fe Opera. And you can't even talk loud, or else you'd get escorted out, and I can imagine how they are with the phones now. So it doesn't surprise me that Dream Theater and their management decided to be as strict with the phones. They want you to pay attention to the show, and enjoy the concept and the story. They wanted an Opera style experience.
And I don't know what stupid hidden rule is there for people to sit at a rock show/rock concert. I will tell you, it sucks being short and stuck sitting behind someone tall. So if I stand o have a better experience. If I sit I won't have a better experience at all, while the guy behind me will. Fuck that. I didn't say anything either to the guy behind telling me to sit down during Rush. My friend actually told that guy "Dude, it's a rock concert." And we stood for a while then sat down because that guy was going all Karen. Staff can't do shit either...
I do appreciate though at General Admission shows when the tall people will let me go in front of them or let to get to the spot where there is no tall people but a good space where I could see between crowd.
-
I love The Astonishing because they used my name for the main character/savior :biggrin:
There's a character named Gzarruk?? How did I miss that?? :eek
It's in the book ;D :lol
While of course I understand that The Astonishing is not everyone's cup of tea, I can't see how it could be seen as anything else than a DT album.
It's their version of a rock opera... but it's still DT. Not even on my first listening I thought "wow, this is so completely different from everything they've ever done, if it was not for James singing I wouldn't even recognize the band".... heck no, the fact that Petrucci and Rudess wrote it and played on it is so evident and clear.
Judas Priest's Nostradamus was far more removed from Priest's usual sound that The Astonishing ever is.... you could take at least half of the songs and spread them over the other Mangini albums and they would fit nicely.
This. It's an album written by Dream Theater members, recorded by Dream Theater and released under the DT name. How's that *not* a DT album? :facepalm:
I guess Wither isn't a DT song either, because it was only written by JP? SDV?
-
I love The Astonishing because they used my name for the main character/savior :biggrin:
There's a character named Gzarruk?? How did I miss that?? :eek
It's in the book ;D :lol
While of course I understand that The Astonishing is not everyone's cup of tea, I can't see how it could be seen as anything else than a DT album.
It's their version of a rock opera... but it's still DT. Not even on my first listening I thought "wow, this is so completely different from everything they've ever done, if it was not for James singing I wouldn't even recognize the band".... heck no, the fact that Petrucci and Rudess wrote it and played on it is so evident and clear.
Judas Priest's Nostradamus was far more removed from Priest's usual sound that The Astonishing ever is.... you could take at least half of the songs and spread them over the other Mangini albums and they would fit nicely.
This. It's an album written by Dream Theater members, recorded by Dream Theater and released under the DT name. How's that *not* a DT album? :facepalm:
I guess Wither isn't a DT song either, because it was only written by JP? SDV?
Exactly my point about Labeling and why I find it particularly odd how just a simple name change can affect a persons perspective of the music. It's still the same people making the same music.
-
I love The Astonishing because they used my name for the main character/savior :biggrin:
There's a character named Gzarruk?? How did I miss that?? :eek
I'm going to go out on a limb and say there's NOT a character named "Stadler" in the book. :) :) :)
-
Yes, there is. Well, sort of. There is a character named simply "Bill," who seems to have some sort of split personality disorder (although the story does not flesh that out specifically). His other personality can best be described as evil incarnate, and the other characters refer to it as "Stadler." So, no, he isn't a separate "character" per se, but he is there. There is a very steamy, riske scene between the "Stadler" personality and the character called "Adami," but I won't spoil it.
-
Yes, there is. Well, sort of. There is a character named simply "Bill," who seems to have some sort of split personality disorder (although the story does not flesh that out specifically). His other personality can best be described as evil incarnate, and the other characters refer to it as "Stadler." So, no, he isn't a separate "character" per se, but he is there. There is a very steamy, riske scene between the "Stadler" personality and the character called "Adami," but I won't spoil it.
The editor's cut has a Rodrigo in it.
-
Well...my sister decided to name her latest Evangeline around same time this release came out. Pure coincidence, as she would not be aware of this band.
-
I look at WDADU as Majesty's one and only album, especially since that it was originally intended to be a Majesty album, IaW as the band's true debut, Six Degrees suite as an album in and of itself within another album, and LTE 1 and 2 as quasi Dream Theater albums as it's 3/4 of 00s DT and they had no problem injecting some of that stuff into their live shows. So I also look at TA as a Dream Theater-related production featuring all the current members of the band because it's far removed from a typical Dream Theater album and is more or less JP's baby.
???
-
Happy 5th anniversary to The Astonishing!
-
I look at WDADU as Majesty's one and only album, especially since that it was originally intended to be a Majesty album, IaW as the band's true debut, Six Degrees suite as an album in and of itself within another album, and LTE 1 and 2 as quasi Dream Theater albums as it's 3/4 of 00s DT and they had no problem injecting some of that stuff into their live shows. So I also look at TA as a Dream Theater-related production featuring all the current members of the band because it's far removed from a typical Dream Theater album and is more or less JP's baby.
It’s never up to us to say what’s Dream Theater and what is not, it’s up to the band. If it has the Dream Theater name on it, it’s Dream Theater. Our readings of certain situations make no difference at all in the overall picture.
Happy 5th anniversary to The Astonishing!
Happy anniversary to one of my all-time favorites :)
-
Happy 5th anniversary to The Astonishing!
Happy anniversary to one of my all-time favorites :)
This. :hefdaddy
-
:omg: :omg:
It's been 5 years, already. Holy crap. I am still noticing things about the album.
-
TA - For sophisticated musical tastes! :metal :metal
-
I still love this album. Haven't listened to it lately, so I think I'll remedy that now. :)
-
I am flying cross country tomorrow. I am going to listen and read the book!
-
The album has aged surprisingly well for me. Just revisited it and listened to CD1 yesterday and CD2 today. While there certainly is a lot of filler and the song structures don't follow the ordinary formula the album has some very grand moments. Someone mentioned somewhere in the thread that the endings of many songs are very good and I agree. While the album may be a bit overloaded with calm piano intros, the endings are many times filled with just the right kind of drama and heartache. Also, that Lord Nafaryus tango is awesome. Stand alone favorite songs are perhaps Moment of Betrayal, already mentioned Nafaryus, and Brother, Can You Hear Me. I also noticed disc 1 is more enjoyable than disc 2 as a whole, despite Moment of Betrayal being the best song on the album.
The story I could never get into.
-
WOW TA is 5 years old.
i see a lot of varied opinions on this album mine is............Meh?
let me explain. i have a friend who i'd struggled to get into DT for years. he loved them....then hated them.....then loved them.....then hated them. on and on forever and ever. anyway he finally loves them now. my point for saying all this is he thinks TA is the worst thing DT did and will ever do.
but....i think that view is over the top. i don't hate this album and i don't think it's the worst thing ever. i'm in the middle. It has some lovely tracks and melodies. but i think it's too long. and to me it's biggest failing is those lyrics. yeesh.
and it''s cheesy but it's meant to be.
i respect DT for trying this even if it doesn't quite gell for me.
-
i don't hate this album and i don't think it's the worst thing ever. i'm in the middle. It has some lovely tracks and melodies. but i think it's too long. and to me it's biggest failing is those lyrics. yeesh.
Part of the problem with the lyrics is they are not tongue in cheek like, say, Ayreon. Now that is some seriously cheesy shit, but it knows it's cheesy. It embraces the cheesiness and it brings all the fans in on the joke and doesn't mind poking fun at itself, nor does any of it take itself seriously.
The Astonishing, on the other hand, is presented more as a serious story, meant to be deep and intriguing and thought-provoking, but the lyrics are just as cheesy if not more cheesy than Ayreon and I think if it had been presented in a more tongue in cheek fashion it may not have received the same cold reception that it eventually received from the fan base. I see it consistently rated at or near the bottom of the the catalog and I think you identified both of the main problems, the story is just too weird and not very compelling or emotionally engaging and the album suffers from a severe case of bloat. There is one CD of pretty solid music but the rest? meh
-
i don't hate this album and i don't think it's the worst thing ever. i'm in the middle. It has some lovely tracks and melodies. but i think it's too long. and to me it's biggest failing is those lyrics. yeesh.
Part of the problem with the lyrics is they are not tongue in cheek like, say, Ayreon. Now that is some seriously cheesy shit, but it knows it's cheesy. It embraces the cheesiness and it brings all the fans in on the joke and doesn't mind poking fun at itself, nor does any of it take itself seriously.
The Astonishing, on the other hand, is presented more as a serious story, meant to be deep and intriguing and thought-provoking, but the lyrics are just as cheesy if not more cheesy than Ayreon and I think if it had been presented in a more tongue in cheek fashion it may not have received the same cold reception that it eventually received from the fan base. I see it consistently rated at or near the bottom of the the catalog and I think you identified both of the main problems, the story is just too weird and not very compelling or emotionally engaging and the album suffers from a severe case of bloat. There is one CD of pretty solid music but the rest? meh
I don't think it's really the lyrics written. I think it's how the lyrics are presented. It's hard for one man to portray many characters and to present those lyrics in the way that best represents the emotion of that character, and JLB uses his tone to present the characters emotion. It's easier when you can have multiple vocalists that best represent the character, as in Ayreon. Arjen even created a character for Mike Mills on Transitus because he likes his voice, and picked a dumb piece of rock. :lol I even asked Arjen about if the characters on The Source were the same characters as in 01, just different vocalists used because he couldn't get the other guys. I should've asked too if he also thought about using the original 01 singers.
It's why I like this cover of Act of Faythe (https://youtu.be/FxYPUFSB1rY), here her vocals portray that emotion of Faythe. This is close to how I hear Faythe.
It'd be fun to see who's people's choices would be for the characters, if an Ayreon type of show were to be done.
For now, it'd be someone like Anneke for Faythe, but I would actually go with someone poppy like Arianna Grande. and for Nefaryus it'd be someone with a gritty voice, but has power, Like Chris Cornell.
I would have to think of the others, but for now...
Faythe: Arianna Grande
-
Faythe: Arianna Grande
Good luck with that :lol
-
Faythe: Arianna Grande
Good luck with that :lol
Yup, it's a big wish... :biggrin:
But to me her voice would be a good Faythe.
And Daryus would sound good in a Ronnie James Dio style of vocals. I could hear that voice with "You dare defy your prince..."
-
Faythe: Arianna Grande
And Drake and Josh for Arhys and Gabriel?
-
"You used to called me on my cellphone, the Ravenskill militia!"
-
i don't hate this album and i don't think it's the worst thing ever. i'm in the middle. It has some lovely tracks and melodies. but i think it's too long. and to me it's biggest failing is those lyrics. yeesh.
Part of the problem with the lyrics is they are not tongue in cheek like, say, Ayreon. Now that is some seriously cheesy shit, but it knows it's cheesy. It embraces the cheesiness and it brings all the fans in on the joke and doesn't mind poking fun at itself, nor does any of it take itself seriously.
The Astonishing, on the other hand, is presented more as a serious story, meant to be deep and intriguing and thought-provoking, but the lyrics are just as cheesy if not more cheesy than Ayreon and I think if it had been presented in a more tongue in cheek fashion it may not have received the same cold reception that it eventually received from the fan base. I see it consistently rated at or near the bottom of the the catalog and I think you identified both of the main problems, the story is just too weird and not very compelling or emotionally engaging and the album suffers from a severe case of bloat. There is one CD of pretty solid music but the rest? meh
I don't think it's really the lyrics written. I think it's how the lyrics are presented. It's hard for one man to portray many characters and to present those lyrics in the way that best represents the emotion of that character, and JLB uses his tone to present the characters emotion. It's easier when you can have multiple vocalists that best represent the character, as in Ayreon. Arjen even created a character for Mike Mills on Transitus because he likes his voice, and picked a dumb piece of rock. :lol I even asked Arjen about if the characters on The Source were the same characters as in 01, just different vocalists used because he couldn't get the other guys. I should've asked too if he also thought about using the original 01 singers.
It's why I like this cover of Act of Faythe (https://youtu.be/FxYPUFSB1rY), here her vocals portray that emotion of Faythe. This is close to how I hear Faythe.
It'd be fun to see who's people's choices would be for the characters, if an Ayreon type of show were to be done.
For now, it'd be someone like Anneke for Faythe, but I would actually go with someone poppy like Arianna Grande. and for Nefaryus it'd be someone with a gritty voice, but has power, Like Chris Cornell.
I would have to think of the others, but for now...
Faythe: Arianna Grande
I agree that having multiple vocalists for the characters on an album like this would have helped, but I really don't see Dream Theater doing a full-on multi-vocalist Rock Opera. I'd be shocked if they ever did another album like this. But if they DID decide to do another one I think it would be a very bold idea to bring in some help with the vocals to voice the individual characters' voices, but I think the fan base would flip the fuck out over something like that. :lol
-
i don't hate this album and i don't think it's the worst thing ever. i'm in the middle. It has some lovely tracks and melodies. but i think it's too long. and to me it's biggest failing is those lyrics. yeesh.
Part of the problem with the lyrics is they are not tongue in cheek like, say, Ayreon. Now that is some seriously cheesy shit, but it knows it's cheesy. It embraces the cheesiness and it brings all the fans in on the joke and doesn't mind poking fun at itself, nor does any of it take itself seriously.
The Astonishing, on the other hand, is presented more as a serious story, meant to be deep and intriguing and thought-provoking, but the lyrics are just as cheesy if not more cheesy than Ayreon and I think if it had been presented in a more tongue in cheek fashion it may not have received the same cold reception that it eventually received from the fan base. I see it consistently rated at or near the bottom of the the catalog and I think you identified both of the main problems, the story is just too weird and not very compelling or emotionally engaging and the album suffers from a severe case of bloat. There is one CD of pretty solid music but the rest? meh
I don't think it's really the lyrics written. I think it's how the lyrics are presented. It's hard for one man to portray many characters and to present those lyrics in the way that best represents the emotion of that character, and JLB uses his tone to present the characters emotion. It's easier when you can have multiple vocalists that best represent the character, as in Ayreon. Arjen even created a character for Mike Mills on Transitus because he likes his voice, and picked a dumb piece of rock. :lol I even asked Arjen about if the characters on The Source were the same characters as in 01, just different vocalists used because he couldn't get the other guys. I should've asked too if he also thought about using the original 01 singers.
It's why I like this cover of Act of Faythe (https://youtu.be/FxYPUFSB1rY), here her vocals portray that emotion of Faythe. This is close to how I hear Faythe.
It'd be fun to see who's people's choices would be for the characters, if an Ayreon type of show were to be done.
For now, it'd be someone like Anneke for Faythe, but I would actually go with someone poppy like Arianna Grande. and for Nefaryus it'd be someone with a gritty voice, but has power, Like Chris Cornell.
I would have to think of the others, but for now...
Faythe: Arianna Grande
I agree that having multiple vocalists for the characters on an album like this would have helped, but I really don't see Dream Theater doing a full-on multi-vocalist Rock Opera. I'd be shocked if they ever did another album like this. But if they DID decide to do another one I think it would be a very bold idea to bring in some help with the vocals to voice the individual characters' voices, but I think the fan base would flip the fuck out over something like that. :lol
IIRC, having multiple vocalists for TA was in the cards for a while, but then John P and James decided he would handle all the vocal parts.
Maybe they'll revisit TA someday and play it live with different singers to record it for a live album, but I'm not counting on it.
-
I don't think it's really the lyrics written. I think it's how the lyrics are presented.
I beg to differ. There's too much dialogue - had there been more of a narrative akin to what we see in SFaM, the story could've been told in a more concise way (which would also result in less short, piano based songs and interludes) and would've left room for some real action (like a battle or two) that would've brought some real crunch to the proceedings (and maybe made the music a bit less Disney-esque). Plus, the story is basically Rush's 2112 meets Jesus Christ, so it's not the most compelling idea given that 2112 and Jesus Christ Superstar already exist.
-
I don't think it's really the lyrics written. I think it's how the lyrics are presented.
I beg to differ. There's too much dialogue - had there been more of a narrative akin to what we see in SFaM, the story could've been told in a more concise way (which would also result in less short, piano based songs and interludes) and would've left room for some real action (like a battle or two) that would've brought some real crunch to the proceedings (and maybe made the music a bit less Disney-esque). Plus, the story is basically Rush's 2112 meets Jesus Christ, so it's not the most compelling idea given that 2112 and Jesus Christ Superstar already exist.
That's the point is to have dialogue. It's a Rock Opera. And when you see Rock Operas, there are dialogues between characters. It's actually characters singing out their emotions. And I also, think the point is also JP likes Disney style songs, he probably likes how those songs are written, he did do Let It Go with his daughter.
And I do not like to compare different works of art, for this very reason of dismissing it because it sounds close to something else. It's not really 2112, the only aspect of that is the music being the main point. It's more Jesus Christ Superstar with the savior aspect. But that is any hero story. And both 2112 and JCS were influencers to The Astonishing.
But yeah, Is it too hard for people to give suggestions for whom they might choose, IF there was a mutli-vocalist approach to The Astonishing?
I'll give my choices when I can think more about the style and whom would best suit the emotions...
The reason I chose Arianna Grande, is because Faythe, has that essence of being young. And her voice is very good for the emotion that Faythe portrays, and makes Faythes stabbing even more hard hitting, when you connect with that angelic voice.
Gabriel would actually be good for a Powerhouse vocalist, like Roy Kahn, Tommy Karevik, Mike Patton, Eddy Vedder
What I am trying to do with my vocalist choices is spread it out through all genres.
Annabelle, could be someone like Tori Amos, someone with that motherly voice.
-
i don't hate this album and i don't think it's the worst thing ever. i'm in the middle. It has some lovely tracks and melodies. but i think it's too long. and to me it's biggest failing is those lyrics. yeesh.
Part of the problem with the lyrics is they are not tongue in cheek like, say, Ayreon. Now that is some seriously cheesy shit, but it knows it's cheesy. It embraces the cheesiness and it brings all the fans in on the joke and doesn't mind poking fun at itself, nor does any of it take itself seriously.
The Astonishing, on the other hand, is presented more as a serious story, meant to be deep and intriguing and thought-provoking, but the lyrics are just as cheesy if not more cheesy than Ayreon and I think if it had been presented in a more tongue in cheek fashion it may not have received the same cold reception that it eventually received from the fan base. I see it consistently rated at or near the bottom of the the catalog and I think you identified both of the main problems, the story is just too weird and not very compelling or emotionally engaging and the album suffers from a severe case of bloat. There is one CD of pretty solid music but the rest? meh
it's very broadway........BUT.......i can tel you. i come from theater.....worked in theater. TA is cheesier than real theater most days.
and another problem with the story. it's super cliched and been told in other forms before so it's nothing fresh.
again i commend them. i don't hate it.....but i kinda never need to hear it ever again.
-
Oh, I think it took a massive set of balls to do it and I also highly commend them for it. I may not care for the final outcome all that much, but I respect them for doing it. It was a pretty huge risk.
It would be fascinating to know how it sold in relation to the rest of the catalog. IIRC it did much better than this thread would imply, but I could be wrong.
-
i don't hate this album and i don't think it's the worst thing ever. i'm in the middle. It has some lovely tracks and melodies. but i think it's too long. and to me it's biggest failing is those lyrics. yeesh.
Part of the problem with the lyrics is they are not tongue in cheek like, say, Ayreon. Now that is some seriously cheesy shit, but it knows it's cheesy. It embraces the cheesiness and it brings all the fans in on the joke and doesn't mind poking fun at itself, nor does any of it take itself seriously.
The Astonishing, on the other hand, is presented more as a serious story, meant to be deep and intriguing and thought-provoking, but the lyrics are just as cheesy if not more cheesy than Ayreon and I think if it had been presented in a more tongue in cheek fashion it may not have received the same cold reception that it eventually received from the fan base. I see it consistently rated at or near the bottom of the the catalog and I think you identified both of the main problems, the story is just too weird and not very compelling or emotionally engaging and the album suffers from a severe case of bloat. There is one CD of pretty solid music but the rest? meh
it's very broadway........BUT.......i can tel you. i come from theater.....worked in theater. TA is cheesier than real theater most days.
and another problem with the story. it's super cliched and been told in other forms before so it's nothing fresh.
again i commend them. i don't hate it.....but i kinda never need to hear it ever again.
Yup. It is cheesier because JP doesn't write for broadway like those people do.
I don't care if it's fresh or not. I still enjoy the story and setting it has, with the NOMACS being this big loud Machines that are capable of killing people with sound. It is what killed Evangeline and caused her to give birth to Xander on the spot. It's why I bought the book, which I still haven't read completely, I have no idea why I haven't read it all yet.
I think it's good for what it is. It isn't trying to be a broadway style. It's a Rock Opera, mixed with some dashes of Disney Musical style. But, it could be made into a broadway style musical. It's what happened with HadesTown.
This is also why I want The Astonishing Live released. It was a fantastic show and represented the concept well. I used my imagination for the rest.
-
I actually decided while listening to Chosen to make a mashup of that song, and other songs from The Astonishing. Basically, condensing the story from Chosen onwards.
The songs used are
Chosen
The Road To Revolution
Moment of Betrayal
The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
Losing Faythe
The Astonishing
I have it all pretty much done and and blended to the best possible way I can get it with what I have, and the knowledge I have of crossfading.
Now here's my dilemma...I am having trouble figuring out how to crossfade the end of Losing Faythe into The Astonishing. So far, I have figured out 3 different ways, that sound good to me, but aren't quite how I want it to blend. The one I have, and made more into a listenable track, sounds pretty decent to me.
Now...I am wondering as well, if it will be alright to post it on here if I do decide to upload it on my Youtube channel?
I actually like it and think it's a nice way to condense the ending story.
I can describe what I did, but I would rather you hear it for yourselves.
The two I really like clock in at 26 Min. and 29 Min.
-
They could have brought in King Diamond as an advisor. The story would be better, the NOMACS would be ten times more evil...
-
They could have brought in King Diamond as an advisor. The story would be better, the NOMACS would be ten times more evil...
If you read the book. They are...
You know what it sounded like live when those NOMACS tracks played. Now imagine that but with hundreds of those things making that noise.
Anyways, I realized, when I picked Faythe. I meant to put Demi Lovato instead of Arianna Grande... :loser: :facepalm: :lol
-
Here it is...
I decided to also make the video with Images I could find online of The Astonishing, closest to what is happening in the songs I chose to use. I would've just uploaded some from the Linear books, but I don't have those with me.
Chosen From Losing Faythe (The Astonishing Mashup) (https://youtu.be/lbAYaNfSUFo)
-
They could have brought in King Diamond as an advisor. The story would be better, the NOMACS would be ten times more evil...
Anyways, I realized, when I picked Faythe. I meant to put Demi Lovato instead of Arianna Grande... :loser: :facepalm: :lol
I also think Geddy, I mean AMY Lee would do a good job as Faythe.
-
They could have brought in King Diamond as an advisor. The story would be better, the NOMACS would be ten times more evil...
Anyways, I realized, when I picked Faythe. I meant to put Demi Lovato instead of Arianna Grande... :loser: :facepalm: :lol
I also think Geddy, I mean AMY Lee would do a good job as Faythe.
Yeah...Her voice is suited for that too. But for me, my decision was based on the voice being a younger singer.
-
It's been five years and I still haven't listened to the entire thing in one sitting.
-
It's been five years and I still listen to 'A Life Left Behind' fairly routinely.
I wish there was more to go back to, but that is literally the only song I have any interest in hearing off the record. Glad it's still resonating with others, though.
-
I think the last FULL listen i gave to TA was about 2 years ago. lol. i just pick and choose songs.
i'm sorry but the thing really isn't worth a full play.
-
I listen to the full record every 2 or 3 mos. (usually over the course of 2 days - like 2 bike rides). I enjoy it as much or more with each listen.
-
Here it is...
I decided to also make the video with Images I could find online of The Astonishing, closest to what is happening in the songs I chose to use. I would've just uploaded some from the Linear books, but I don't have those with me.
Chosen From Losing Faythe (The Astonishing Mashup) (https://youtu.be/lbAYaNfSUFo)
Very well done! I am a real fan of TA but this is a great way to shortcut the story. Your transitions were excellent.
-
Here it is...
I decided to also make the video with Images I could find online of The Astonishing, closest to what is happening in the songs I chose to use. I would've just uploaded some from the Linear books, but I don't have those with me.
Chosen From Losing Faythe (The Astonishing Mashup) (https://youtu.be/lbAYaNfSUFo)
Very well done! I am a real fan of TA but this is a great way to shortcut the story. Your transitions were excellent.
Thanks for the comment, and I am glad you enjoyed it.
-
I think the last FULL listen i gave to TA was about 2 years ago. lol. i just pick and choose songs.
i'm sorry but the thing really isn't worth a full play.
Same here. There are about 9 tracks that I actually like. If any of those come up in a random shuffle, I'll listen. Otherwise it's skip time.
-
Saw this thread and it inspired me to post. I didn't like TA when it came out...and nothing's really changed. I have it rated the lowest among all DT albums, with BC&SL a close next-to-last.
Looked at my library and see I've only listened to five of the songs since February of 2019. I never think "Gee I want to listen to The Astonishing" bc: 1) it's not a very good album and 2) it's just waaaay too long.
I gave the band credit for trying something different, and getting outside their comfort zone bc IMO they've been trodding very-well trod ground since SDOIT. But wow....the lyrics are so cringe. I can't believe the same guy who wrote Voices came up with this drivel. The endless parade of uninspired ballad-like moments was another gripe. And the second disc drags on incessantly. Looking at my individual song ratings the final 9 songs, covering 29 minutes, are all rated either 1 or 2 stars (out of 5). That's basically unlistenable to me.
Again, they tried something different and ambitious. Just didn't pull it off very well IMO.
(https://i.imgur.com/k6FiOPe.png)
-
I would like to know why you think the lyrics are cringy? And why you don't enjoy the "uninspired ballad-like moments"?
For me, the lyrics are more like a dialogue compared to a poetic style or form like Voices lyrics are. And I personally think the lyrics fit well for the characters involved.
I get it that there could've been more heavier, less ballady songs, and ones that describe the war more, but I don't think that's the part of the story JP wanted to focus on. The Main focus of the story on the album is between Faythe and Gabriel, and their love of music to prevent the Lord from waging full on Invasion of Ravenskill. It's a Romeo and Juliet type of story, and the music really reflects that.
I personally think the music is a great soundtrack for the story JP is telling. It also requires a lot out of the listener actually. But, if you have the time to take to put on good headphones and escape into your imagination into the story of The Astonishing is where you can enjoy each piece of music, the tone in the melodies and chord progressions, how each represents a mood of each character, and how the music is there to enhance the listener to experience the mood the character is in at the time. It's why the War and Fighting moments are the heavy songs like Lord Nefaryus, Three Days, Moment of Betrayal and The Path That Divides.
-
I like when bands take chances, but usually that means musically. The concept is surely different for the band. Sure, there is some Disney-fied parts on TA, though some would argue that element has been in the band's sound for over 20 years, they just exploited it here.
However, when you break it down, and I've said this before, TA is no different from the other Mangini albums from a sonic and pure technical perspective. They didn't really mix up their style of playing compared to ADTOE, DT12 or DoT. I'd say the band took bigger sonic and stylistic risks making Awake, FII, Scenes, SDOIT, and TOT, and they were pretty much all successful. All the Mangini albums have a singular core sound that varies little between tracks. So to me, the long, drawn out concept that isn't very interesting actually helps bringing the album down, as opposed to if the music was compressed into a single disc worth of music, and wasn't bashing you over the head with the concept.
-
I like when bands take chances, but usually that means musically. The concept is surely different for the band. Sure, there is some Disney-fied parts on TA, though some would argue that element has been in the band's sound for over 20 years, they just exploited it here.
However, when you break it down, and I've said this before, TA is no different from the other Mangini albums from a sonic and pure technical perspective. They didn't really mix up their style of playing compared to ADTOE, DT12 or DoT. I'd say the band took bigger sonic and stylistic risks making Awake, FII, Scenes, SDOIT, and TOT, and they were pretty much all successful. All the Mangini albums have a singular core sound that varies little between tracks. So to me, the long, drawn out concept that isn't very interesting actually helps bringing the album down, as opposed to if the music was compressed into a single disc worth of music, and wasn't bashing you over the head with the concept.
Isn't that the point of a concept album. :lol :lol
-
Saw this thread and it inspired me to post. I didn't like TA when it came out...and nothing's really changed. I have it rated the lowest among all DT albums, with BC&SL a close next-to-last.
Looked at my library and see I've only listened to five of the songs since February of 2019. I never think "Gee I want to listen to The Astonishing" bc: 1) it's not a very good album and 2) it's just waaaay too long.
I gave the band credit for trying something different, and getting outside their comfort zone bc IMO they've been trodding very-well trod ground since SDOIT. But wow....the lyrics are so cringe. I can't believe the same guy who wrote Voices came up with this drivel. The endless parade of uninspired ballad-like moments was another gripe. And the second disc drags on incessantly. Looking at my individual song ratings the final 9 songs, covering 29 minutes, are all rated either 1 or 2 stars (out of 5). That's basically unlistenable to me.
Again, they tried something different and ambitious. Just didn't pull it off very well IMO.
(https://i.imgur.com/k6FiOPe.png)
That pretty much sums up my thoughts on about a third of JP's lyrical output post-MP.
The first time I heard 'Take Away My Pain,' it nearly brought me to tears (still does)
The first time I heard 'My music plaaaayyyyyerrrr', I pressed 'skip'
I'm super happy that so many people enjoy this record, but I still struggle to get into it.
I listened to my 'condensed' mix (9 songs) during my workout yesterday morning, and I wound up deleting two more—so yeah, I like about 25 minutes of this record.
Honestly, for a band this far into their career, the fact that I'm still down to listen to 90 percent of their output is pretty amazing. They've gotten older, I've gotten older, but yet, I still find myself connecting with their music all of these years later. Lord knows my father couldn't say the same thing about anything he listened to when he was 15.
-
I like when bands take chances, but usually that means musically. The concept is surely different for the band. Sure, there is some Disney-fied parts on TA, though some would argue that element has been in the band's sound for over 20 years, they just exploited it here.
However, when you break it down, and I've said this before, TA is no different from the other Mangini albums from a sonic and pure technical perspective. They didn't really mix up their style of playing compared to ADTOE, DT12 or DoT. I'd say the band took bigger sonic and stylistic risks making Awake, FII, Scenes, SDOIT, and TOT, and they were pretty much all successful. All the Mangini albums have a singular core sound that varies little between tracks. So to me, the long, drawn out concept that isn't very interesting actually helps bringing the album down, as opposed to if the music was compressed into a single disc worth of music, and wasn't bashing you over the head with the concept.
I noticed that right out of the gate with TA the sonics have issues. All the "musical" tracks have that "singular core" sound you mentioned. However it seems the NOMAC tracks are totally different. For example, the opening NOMAC track is all low end, so if you are listening on any speakers with any ability to represent that range (who knows maybe I'm one of the few people left on this planet who does?) you get a massive surge of volume at the end of the 1st track; so when Dystopian Overture subsequently starts it sounds like a tinny mini-orchestra being played through cheap radio speakers in contrast. I always listen to the 1st NOMAC track at half volume and then double the volume before track 2 to try to recover some of the dynamic emphasis of the Overture crashing in. But sometimes its too annoying to go through the trouble so I just skip track 1.
-
I like when bands take chances, but usually that means musically. The concept is surely different for the band. Sure, there is some Disney-fied parts on TA, though some would argue that element has been in the band's sound for over 20 years, they just exploited it here.
However, when you break it down, and I've said this before, TA is no different from the other Mangini albums from a sonic and pure technical perspective. They didn't really mix up their style of playing compared to ADTOE, DT12 or DoT. I'd say the band took bigger sonic and stylistic risks making Awake, FII, Scenes, SDOIT, and TOT, and they were pretty much all successful. All the Mangini albums have a singular core sound that varies little between tracks. So to me, the long, drawn out concept that isn't very interesting actually helps bringing the album down, as opposed to if the music was compressed into a single disc worth of music, and wasn't bashing you over the head with the concept.
I noticed that right out of the gate with TA the sonics have issues. All the "musical" tracks have that "singular core" sound you mentioned. However it seems the NOMAC tracks are totally different. For example, the opening NOMAC track is all low end, so if you are listening on any speakers with any ability to represent that range (who knows maybe I'm one of the few people left on this planet who does?) you get a massive surge of volume at the end of the 1st track; so when Dystopian Overture subsequently starts it sounds like a tinny mini-orchestra being played through cheap radio speakers in contrast. I always listen to the 1st NOMAC track at half volume and then double the volume before track 2 to try to recover some of the dynamic emphasis of the Overture crashing in. But sometimes its too annoying to go through the trouble so I just skip track 1.
Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I actually find that to be one of the worst moments on the album, and it's right in the beginning of the ordeal. It also makes me miss the huge sound from the MP days, consider the way the heavy guitars come crashing in on, say, the beginning of A Nightmare To Remember. The way the drums are mixed these days, combined with Mangini's sound, does not elevate the JP/JM low-end to massive heights they used to reach.
I think the band missed a big opportunity to make a song around the Nomac stuff, somewhere on disc 2 there should have been a deep brooding song with different effects on the instruments, a song where the Nomacs come out and do stuff. Seems they're just these background, passive characters in the story.
-
I think the band missed a big opportunity to make a song around the Nomac stuff, somewhere on disc 2 there should have been a deep brooding song with different effects on the instruments, a song where the Nomacs come out and do stuff. Seems they're just these background, passive characters in the story.
Most of the main themes and melodies of this album are pretty consonant, so I often wonder if there is some sort of story connection with the NOMACs when Gabriel is about to play, after the line "sonic ecstacy" we get some nice dissonant rhythmically disjointed punches. So for a moment (right before the "love at first sight" ballad starts) we get the band doing something that sounds distinctly NOMAC-ish. What's up with that? Can someone else who knows the story better explain to me the significance of this musical passage?
-
I think the band missed a big opportunity to make a song around the Nomac stuff, somewhere on disc 2 there should have been a deep brooding song with different effects on the instruments, a song where the Nomacs come out and do stuff. Seems they're just these background, passive characters in the story.
The NOMACS are meant to sound the way they do. As that is what music has become in The Great Northern Empire. Which is why Gabriel playing music is seen as a special gift and seen as powerful, it's why Nefaryus gets threatened by Gabriel being seen as a Savior because he plays this beautiful music that gathers the crowd of people. And he knows how strong music can be..."Remember Bug".
For how silly it sounds and looks when not looking at it within the concept, "Music Player" sounds cheesy and cheap, but here's a question...How else would you have worded "Music Player" to fit in with the melody in Act of Faythe? The Music Player is an important role in this concept, as Faythe only knowing the music of the NOMACS, discovers this Music Player and it opens up her world to of music, that no one else has heard of before, until she discovers that Nefaryus is "Bug" and lets her know how He was the one that outlawed this music from the world, and unleashed the NOMACS.
The best representation of the NOMACS was live, my god where those parts amazingly. Now imagine a concert sound system floating in the air, and vast amounts of those at once. At extremely louder volumes, that is how they truly sound.
I think the band missed a big opportunity to make a song around the Nomac stuff, somewhere on disc 2 there should have been a deep brooding song with different effects on the instruments, a song where the Nomacs come out and do stuff. Seems they're just these background, passive characters in the story.
Most of the main themes and melodies of this album are pretty consonant, so I often wonder if there is some sort of story connection with the NOMACs when Gabriel is about to play, after the line "sonic ecstacy" we get some nice dissonant rhythmically disjointed punches. So for a moment (right before the "love at first sight" ballad starts) we get the band doing something that sounds distinctly NOMAC-ish. What's up with that? Can someone else who knows the story better explain to me the significance of this musical passage?
To me, That moment represents that "They only know the noise machines"...NOMAC stands for NOise MAChine. And is like Gabriel pointing at the NOMACS that accompanied The Royal Family to Ravenskill, while he says "Noise Machines". And is him staring at them hovering, before he sets his sights on the angel appearing before his very eyes.
-
To me, That moment represents that "They only know the noise machines"...NOMAC stands for NOise MAChine. And is like Gabriel pointing at the NOMACS that accompanied The Royal Family to Ravenskill, while he says "Noise Machines". And is him staring at them hovering, before he sets his sights on the angel appearing before his very eyes.
:tup Works for me! I always thought it was quite weird from a narrative perspective. Thanks for helping make some sense out of it.
-
They were also weaponized in the story. At the TA shows (is that repetitive or not??), when the NOMACS noise started at the beginning, it was LOUD and vibrated the theater. A great representation of how they were depicted in the book.
-
To me, That moment represents that "They only know the noise machines"...NOMAC stands for NOise MAChine. And is like Gabriel pointing at the NOMACS that accompanied The Royal Family to Ravenskill, while he says "Noise Machines". And is him staring at them hovering, before he sets his sights on the angel appearing before his very eyes.
:tup Works for me! I always thought it was quite weird from a narrative perspective. Thanks for helping make some sense out of it.
No Problem. Seeing the background screens helped a lot too. And the book helps a lot. It's also why I say it's like listening to a Movie or more a book since it has a Narrator.
For me, I really think this album suffers from JLB being the only singer on this, Although he does an excellent job. The story would really benefit from the multiple vocalists as casual listeners will have a hard time distinguishing between characters. They don't know JLB's vocal style, so they have to follow along with the lyric book to remember who is speaking.
And, if I had the resources and funds, I would be doing my own production of The Astonishing live with a Stage Production, in the vein of The Theater Equation. That is the perfect way, I think, to do a Rock Concept while keeping the live show in tact. The acting is there enough for the story and emotion of the characters.
They were also weaponized in the story. At the TA shows (is that repetitive or not??), when the NOMACS noise started at the beginning, it was LOUD and vibrated the theater. A great representation of how they were depicted in the book.
Oh yeah, the best we could get without actually damaging our ears. Which is how they weaponized these things. They made Evangeline give birth for pete's sake. :o
-
Just a quick thing:
Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing? As if that comparison was way to establish that the more musical-oriented style of the album is all sorts of unholy/unworthy/undeserving-of-prog-fans'-attention.
As far as I'm concerned, the Disney style is very incredible on its own. There are a couple of Disney tunes that I listen very regularly and are pretty amazing musical achievements on their own right. Musical taste/criteria is a funny thing, as what someone might call "uninspired" feels the actual opposite to me. The Astonishing is, clearly IMO, full of melodic, inspired and heart-filling musical moments that put it up there in my top 5 favorite DT albums. Does TA sound like the soundtrack of a Disney movie? Maybe, but I don't get why that would be a bad thing.
And now a last minute thought: I feel a much more cohesive and centered songwriting throughout that album than, say, the instrumental section in In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2, or even DT music that feels blatantly uninspired and lacking of any creative energy like A Rite of Passage. It's funny because I feel that when DT are just falling to their old basic and formulaic ways it's when they just start throwing guitar solo/keyboard solo/unison/odd-time signature instrumental section parts at us. It has happened; quite a lot actually. Of course that TA is not without any flaws: most considerably, that it feels way too long (I feel that about all double albums, so there's that) and that Act 1, although it has some pretty incredible moments, does drag quite a bit; but the live experience was pretty awesome. This album was made to be enjoyed and listened to in a live situation, so their decision to not do any release is really baffling.
Get on with your day, my friends. My month of March would not feel complete without my weekly: "let's post something in defense of The Astonishing" routine.
-
Just a quick thing:
Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing? As if that comparison was way to establish that the more musical-oriented style of the album is all sorts of unholy/unworthy/undeserving-of-prog-fans'-attention.
As far as I'm concerned, the Disney style is very incredible on its own. There are a couple of Disney tunes that I listen very regularly and are pretty amazing musical achievements on their own right. Musical taste/criteria is a funny thing, as what someone might call "uninspired" feels the actual opposite to me. The Astonishing is, clearly IMO, full of melodic, inspired and heart-filling musical moments that put it up there in my top 5 favorite DT albums. Does TA sound like the soundtrack of a Disney movie? Maybe, but I don't get why that would be a bad thing.
And now a last minute thought: I feel a much more cohesive and centered songwriting throughout that album than, say, the instrumental section in In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2, or even DT music that feels blatantly uninspired and lacking of any creative energy like A Rite of Passage. It's funny because I feel that when DT are just falling to their old basic and formulaic ways it's when they just start throwing guitar solo/keyboard solo/unison/odd-time signature instrumental section parts at us. It has happened; quite a lot actually. Of course that TA is not without any flaws: most considerably, that it feels way too long (I feel that about all double albums, so there's that) and that Act 1, although it has some pretty incredible moments, does drag quite a bit; but the live experience was pretty awesome. This album was made to be enjoyed and listened to in a live situation, so their decision to not do any release is really baffling.
Get on with your day, my friends. My month of March would not feel complete without my weekly: "let's post something in defense of The Astonishing" routine.
Disney has amazing songs...Maybe they'll like these Metal Covers of some Disney Songs...Like this one....The Bells Of Notre Dame (https://youtu.be/t-VPrpo52hI)
I agree it is a bit long, and it's funny because I find that A New Beginning and A Life Left Behind are ones that drag on, although I know and understand their importance to the story.
But then also, I do not enjoy every scene in a movie. And The Astonishing is like listening to a movie, in music form.
-
Just a quick thing:
Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing? As if that comparison was way to establish that the more musical-oriented style of the album is all sorts of unholy/unworthy/undeserving-of-prog-fans'-attention.
There are some pretty darn incredible songs that came from Disney movies. Guys like Elton John and Phil Collins contributed to some great songs that was used in Disney movies. I'm more partial to I'm Still Here (Jim's theme) from John Rzeznik of the Goo Goo Dolls and Little Wonders from Matchbox 20's Rob Thomas.
To say this music sounds like Disney as a way to deem music not enjoyable seems non-credible if you ask me.
-
I think people liken TA to Disney because of the use of one instrument - the Triangle which I'm sure MM appreciates. There is also harp sounds that I hear which I would think resonates Disney with some people.
And for the sheer number of instrumentation used on the album, I think sonically they hit the nail on the head. MM's drums sound fantastic!! :metal
-
Just a quick thing:
Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing? As if that comparison was way to establish that the more musical-oriented style of the album is all sorts of unholy/unworthy/undeserving-of-prog-fans'-attention.
There are some pretty darn incredible songs that came from Disney movies. Guys like Elton John and Phil Collins contributed to some great songs that was used in Disney movies. I'm more partial to I'm Still Here (Jim's theme) from John Rzeznik of the Goo Goo Dolls and Little Wonders from Matchbox 20's Rob Thomas.
To say this music sounds like Disney as a way to deem music not enjoyable seems non-credible if you ask me.
I love both the Tarzan and Lion King soundtracks, personally and unapologetically.
-
At some point one just has to regard certain abundances as actual strengths to those with complimentary preferences. In this case, there's so much more Jordan on this record than any other DT album I can think of. Not only is this unique in the catalog, if you happen to be a fan of Jordan's piano vignettes, I could see why this could quite possibly be your favorite DT album.
I've come to interpret the solo piano sections that preclude most of the acts as scenery changes. They're part of the world-building providing the "musical scenery" for the Northern Empire. It's stylistically consistent in the same way a set or costume design would maintain continuity in a stage or film production (visual world building).
-
I've come to interpret the solo piano sections that preclude most of the acts as scenery changes. They're part of the world-building providing the "musical scenery" for the Northern Empire. It's stylistically consistent in the same way a set or costume design would maintain continuity in a stage or film production (visual world building).
That's a great way to put it. They do set that scene for each section, and help build that atmosphere and mood of the setting.
-
Just a quick thing:
Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing? As if that comparison was way to establish that the more musical-oriented style of the album is all sorts of unholy/unworthy/undeserving-of-prog-fans'-attention.
As far as I'm concerned, the Disney style is very incredible on its own. There are a couple of Disney tunes that I listen very regularly and are pretty amazing musical achievements on their own right. Musical taste/criteria is a funny thing, as what someone might call "uninspired" feels the actual opposite to me. The Astonishing is, clearly IMO, full of melodic, inspired and heart-filling musical moments that put it up there in my top 5 favorite DT albums. Does TA sound like the soundtrack of a Disney movie? Maybe, but I don't get why that would be a bad thing.
And now a last minute thought: I feel a much more cohesive and centered songwriting throughout that album than, say, the instrumental section in In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2, or even DT music that feels blatantly uninspired and lacking of any creative energy like A Rite of Passage. It's funny because I feel that when DT are just falling to their old basic and formulaic ways it's when they just start throwing guitar solo/keyboard solo/unison/odd-time signature instrumental section parts at us. It has happened; quite a lot actually. Of course that TA is not without any flaws: most considerably, that it feels way too long (I feel that about all double albums, so there's that) and that Act 1, although it has some pretty incredible moments, does drag quite a bit; but the live experience was pretty awesome. This album was made to be enjoyed and listened to in a live situation, so their decision to not do any release is really baffling.
Get on with your day, my friends. My month of March would not feel complete without my weekly: "let's post something in defense of The Astonishing" routine.
I would argue the 2nd disc of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is Disney-fied, but it's done well, and has more of a swashbuckling feel, so it isn't necessarily a criticism, however, on TA, it is overdone IMO. If TA was a similar length to SDoIT and consisted of just the best of the best music, I'd probably enjoy it. But really, TA exploited the cheesier side of the Disney style of music more than Six Degrees did, since Six Degrees was more focused on symphonic prog that happened to be jovial and filled with bravado.
-
Just a quick thing:
Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing? As if that comparison was way to establish that the more musical-oriented style of the album is all sorts of unholy/unworthy/undeserving-of-prog-fans'-attention.
As far as I'm concerned, the Disney style is very incredible on its own. There are a couple of Disney tunes that I listen very regularly and are pretty amazing musical achievements on their own right. Musical taste/criteria is a funny thing, as what someone might call "uninspired" feels the actual opposite to me. The Astonishing is, clearly IMO, full of melodic, inspired and heart-filling musical moments that put it up there in my top 5 favorite DT albums. Does TA sound like the soundtrack of a Disney movie? Maybe, but I don't get why that would be a bad thing.
And now a last minute thought: I feel a much more cohesive and centered songwriting throughout that album than, say, the instrumental section in In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2, or even DT music that feels blatantly uninspired and lacking of any creative energy like A Rite of Passage. It's funny because I feel that when DT are just falling to their old basic and formulaic ways it's when they just start throwing guitar solo/keyboard solo/unison/odd-time signature instrumental section parts at us. It has happened; quite a lot actually. Of course that TA is not without any flaws: most considerably, that it feels way too long (I feel that about all double albums, so there's that) and that Act 1, although it has some pretty incredible moments, does drag quite a bit; but the live experience was pretty awesome. This album was made to be enjoyed and listened to in a live situation, so their decision to not do any release is really baffling.
Get on with your day, my friends. My month of March would not feel complete without my weekly: "let's post something in defense of The Astonishing" routine.
I would argue the 2nd disc of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is Disney-fied, but it's done well, and has more of a swashbuckling feel, so it isn't necessarily a criticism, however, on TA, it is overdone IMO. If TA was a similar length to SDoIT and consisted of just the best of the best music, I'd probably enjoy it. But really, TA exploited the cheesier side of the Disney style of music more than Six Degrees did, since Six Degrees was more focused on symphonic prog that happened to be jovial and filled with bravado.
The only song where I really hear the Disney Cheese is in Act of Faythe. And that really fits the personality of Faythe being filled with youthful energy.
6DOIT subject matter doesn't lend itself to that cheese though. Each part has their set mood and emotion of that Mental Illness. About To Crash has that uplifting, happy, jumpy, joy mood, while the lyrics are the opposite and bleak, giving it that Bi-Polar feel where inside they are full of emotions, but on the outside are projecting a face onto the world. War Inside My Head, has that frantic War-like mood and atmosphere that is represented by the rhythms, especially in the bass and drums. TTSTA is frantic and chaotic right from the start, it represents the mind of the one going through all the Tests being done as he is inside the hollow halls. Goodbye Kiss is one I can see as Disney-esque, and is self-explanatory with it's mood and lyrics. Solitary Shell is another one, as it is a mix of youthfulness and that joy you feel as a child, but in the lyrics, they describe that darker aspect of the subject, a youthful mind that is muted from expressing itself.
Each section has their set mood describing the subjects mindset as the lyrics describe their condition.
What I want to know is...What makes those moments in The Astonishing cheesy?
-
So I was watching this video of MM in the studio for TA again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XT2vy_IaXY), and he seems to have updated the description some time after the video was originally posted, it now says this:
I found this video taken during the recording of The Astonishing. Just Rich Chycki and me doing what we do. Raw Drums. Fun. This is NOT supposed to be, nor can it be "musical" to any brain not trained to process what it's hearing. Something like this never will until that brain earns it. The first chunk will sound like I'm about 2 years old. Maybe. But it is outlandishly difficult to repeat it. I'm being humorous with Rich, but still trying whacked out polyrhythms that never made the album. All were done over the same 1/4 note BPM. I tried the 5 tuplet that was phrased in a pattern taking 8 bars [I played it with my feet,] against a 7 tuplet with hands in the same 1/4 note, but phrased completely differently. But where did I want it to go? If you even heard what I really played(/recorded some takes with) for the 3-minute outro of New Beginning, you'd fall over. It makes the current of "Finally Free" look like 'beginners' work as far as actually difficulty to actually play and repeat it. But, I ended up playing NO fills or changes in that N.B. spot to say something; to send a hidden message; nobody has picked up on it yet that I know of.
I'm really curious about the part I bolded, is he talking about a message figuratively, as in "less is more" approach, or is he talking about a REAL hidden message like something MP did with morse code on ITNOG? :eek
-
Just a quick thing:
Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing?
Well, I don't think that's the case here, but in the outside world the idea is to be offensive. In my local DT fan group (which I dropped out of when the number of people who hate the band outnumbered those who don't) was clearly used in a pejorative sense. In a world of metalheads, Disney music is unacceptable and ridiculous.
-
Just a quick thing:
Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing?
Well, I don't think that's the case here, but in the outside world the idea is to be offensive. In my local DT fan group (which I dropped out of when the number of people who hate the band outnumbered those who don't) was clearly used in a pejorative sense. In a world of metalheads, Disney music is unacceptable and ridiculous.
I listen to many styles of music and I also would prefer Disney style music to be left out of the music I like. It's the same when bands try to do Broadway type stuff, I'm just not into it. I know some like it, but it's a very niche taste in music and comes off incredibly cheesy, overly flamboyant in almost all instances. I just can't take it seriously, unless it's done for humor or satire, like Frank Zappa's "Thing-Fish" which is probably my least favorite album of his. I just happen to like something like SDoIT despite the Disneyesque moments.
-
So I was watching this video of MM in the studio for TA again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XT2vy_IaXY), and he seems to have updated the description some time after the video was originally posted, it now says this:
I found this video taken during the recording of The Astonishing. Just Rich Chycki and me doing what we do. Raw Drums. Fun. This is NOT supposed to be, nor can it be "musical" to any brain not trained to process what it's hearing. Something like this never will until that brain earns it. The first chunk will sound like I'm about 2 years old. Maybe. But it is outlandishly difficult to repeat it. I'm being humorous with Rich, but still trying whacked out polyrhythms that never made the album. All were done over the same 1/4 note BPM. I tried the 5 tuplet that was phrased in a pattern taking 8 bars [I played it with my feet,] against a 7 tuplet with hands in the same 1/4 note, but phrased completely differently. But where did I want it to go? If you even heard what I really played(/recorded some takes with) for the 3-minute outro of New Beginning, you'd fall over. It makes the current of "Finally Free" look like 'beginners' work as far as actually difficulty to actually play and repeat it. But, I ended up playing NO fills or changes in that N.B. spot to say something; to send a hidden message; nobody has picked up on it yet that I know of.
I'm really curious about the part I bolded, is he talking about a message figuratively, as in "less is more" approach, or is he talking about a REAL hidden message like something MP did with morse code on ITNOG? :eek
Not you, you're the messenger here, and I too would love to know the secret message, but that video is, for me, everything that's "wrong" (not the right word) with DT now. I don't feel I should have to go to Berkelee just to "earn" the right to listen to the music. That was always the joy of DT for me; first couple listens, I'd be blown away emotionally, goose bumps, all that, then on subsequent listens I could - if I wanted to - break it down and figure out the complexity and nuances. This just leaves me cold.
-
So I was watching this video of MM in the studio for TA again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XT2vy_IaXY), and he seems to have updated the description some time after the video was originally posted, it now says this:
I found this video taken during the recording of The Astonishing. Just Rich Chycki and me doing what we do. Raw Drums. Fun. This is NOT supposed to be, nor can it be "musical" to any brain not trained to process what it's hearing. Something like this never will until that brain earns it. The first chunk will sound like I'm about 2 years old. Maybe. But it is outlandishly difficult to repeat it. I'm being humorous with Rich, but still trying whacked out polyrhythms that never made the album. All were done over the same 1/4 note BPM. I tried the 5 tuplet that was phrased in a pattern taking 8 bars [I played it with my feet,] against a 7 tuplet with hands in the same 1/4 note, but phrased completely differently. But where did I want it to go? If you even heard what I really played(/recorded some takes with) for the 3-minute outro of New Beginning, you'd fall over. It makes the current of "Finally Free" look like 'beginners' work as far as actually difficulty to actually play and repeat it. But, I ended up playing NO fills or changes in that N.B. spot to say something; to send a hidden message; nobody has picked up on it yet that I know of.
I'm really curious about the part I bolded, is he talking about a message figuratively, as in "less is more" approach, or is he talking about a REAL hidden message like something MP did with morse code on ITNOG? :eek
Not you, you're the messenger here, and I too would love to know the secret message, but that video is, for me, everything that's "wrong" (not the right word) with DT now. I don't feel I should have to go to Berkelee just to "earn" the right to listen to the music. That was always the joy of DT for me; first couple listens, I'd be blown away emotionally, goose bumps, all that, then on subsequent listens I could - if I wanted to - break it down and figure out the complexity and nuances. This just leaves me cold.
I mean, I guess. But at the same time, he DOES have all of this training and next-level ability. What's the point of all that talent if you never get to use it to its full potential - if you only use it to play things that people don't need musical training to hear?
-
So I was watching this video of MM in the studio for TA again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XT2vy_IaXY), and he seems to have updated the description some time after the video was originally posted, it now says this:
I found this video taken during the recording of The Astonishing. Just Rich Chycki and me doing what we do. Raw Drums. Fun. This is NOT supposed to be, nor can it be "musical" to any brain not trained to process what it's hearing. Something like this never will until that brain earns it. The first chunk will sound like I'm about 2 years old. Maybe. But it is outlandishly difficult to repeat it. I'm being humorous with Rich, but still trying whacked out polyrhythms that never made the album. All were done over the same 1/4 note BPM. I tried the 5 tuplet that was phrased in a pattern taking 8 bars [I played it with my feet,] against a 7 tuplet with hands in the same 1/4 note, but phrased completely differently. But where did I want it to go? If you even heard what I really played(/recorded some takes with) for the 3-minute outro of New Beginning, you'd fall over. It makes the current of "Finally Free" look like 'beginners' work as far as actually difficulty to actually play and repeat it. But, I ended up playing NO fills or changes in that N.B. spot to say something; to send a hidden message; nobody has picked up on it yet that I know of.
I'm really curious about the part I bolded, is he talking about a message figuratively, as in "less is more" approach, or is he talking about a REAL hidden message like something MP did with morse code on ITNOG? :eek
Not you, you're the messenger here, and I too would love to know the secret message, but that video is, for me, everything that's "wrong" (not the right word) with DT now. I don't feel I should have to go to Berkelee just to "earn" the right to listen to the music. That was always the joy of DT for me; first couple listens, I'd be blown away emotionally, goose bumps, all that, then on subsequent listens I could - if I wanted to - break it down and figure out the complexity and nuances. This just leaves me cold.
I mean, I guess. But at the same time, he DOES have all of this training and next-level ability. What's the point of all that talent if you never get to use it to its full potential - if you only use it to play things that people don't need musical training to hear?
Well, I would phrase that differently: What's the point of all that talent if you never get to use it to its full potential - if you only use it to play things that people don't need musical training to PLAY?
I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it? And even if it is, generally, it was never that way FOR ME. It's not news, but I've long said that I love guys like Portnoy, Peart, Collins, Bonham, that play stuff that is HARD, that most people, even drummers, can't always do, but they make it sound so EASY (just look at a Rush crowd when Tom Sawyer starts; half the place is waving their arms either in imitation of Joe Cocker or in the seemingly belief of some level of being able to replicate it. Yet, even Mr. Peart has said that the song is a challenge to play RIGHT even now, every night.) Mangini seems to have a knack for playing even the easy stuff in a way that makes it sound impossible.
-
Well, I would phrase that differently: What's the point of all that talent if you never get to use it to its full potential - if you only use it to play things that people don't need musical training to PLAY?
I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it? And even if it is, generally, it was never that way FOR ME. It's not news, but I've long said that I love guys like Portnoy, Peart, Collins, Bonham, that play stuff that is HARD, that most people, even drummers, can't always do, but they make it sound so EASY (just look at a Rush crowd when Tom Sawyer starts; half the place is waving their arms either in imitation of Joe Cocker or in the seemingly belief of some level of being able to replicate it. Yet, even Mr. Peart has said that the song is a challenge to play RIGHT even now, every night.) Mangini seems to have a knack for playing even the easy stuff in a way that makes it sound impossible.
Yes, but there are a number of musicians who do not fit this standard, such as Jordan Rudess, for example.
He doesn't make things sound easy, on the contrary, at various times he deliberately makes them sound as complicated as possible. (eg the solo at the end of This Dying Soul).
Mike Mangini in many ways resembles Jordan Rudess (it is no coincidence that I saw both of them being called robotic musicians). The difference is that Jordan has already been accepted as belonging to DT. Mike Mangini will never be.
-
Just a quick thing:
Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing?
Well, I don't think that's the case here, but in the outside world the idea is to be offensive. In my local DT fan group (which I dropped out of when the number of people who hate the band outnumbered those who don't) was clearly used in a pejorative sense. In a world of metalheads, Disney music is unacceptable and ridiculous.
I listen to many styles of music and I also would prefer Disney style music to be left out of the music I like. It's the same when bands try to do Broadway type stuff, I'm just not into it. I know some like it, but it's a very niche taste in music and comes off incredibly cheesy, overly flamboyant in almost all instances. I just can't take it seriously, unless it's done for humor or satire, like Frank Zappa's "Thing-Fish" which is probably my least favorite album of his. I just happen to like something like SDoIT despite the Disneyesque moments.
Makes sense as to why you wouldn't enjoy The Astonishing. As it is pretty much in that broadway style.
It wouldn't be that hard to take this album and create a broadway show from it. Everything is pretty much there, maybe add more spoken dialogue and some transition scenes but The Setting, The Dialogue, and characters are all there.
-
Well, I would phrase that differently: What's the point of all that talent if you never get to use it to its full potential - if you only use it to play things that people don't need musical training to PLAY?
I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it? And even if it is, generally, it was never that way FOR ME. It's not news, but I've long said that I love guys like Portnoy, Peart, Collins, Bonham, that play stuff that is HARD, that most people, even drummers, can't always do, but they make it sound so EASY (just look at a Rush crowd when Tom Sawyer starts; half the place is waving their arms either in imitation of Joe Cocker or in the seemingly belief of some level of being able to replicate it. Yet, even Mr. Peart has said that the song is a challenge to play RIGHT even now, every night.) Mangini seems to have a knack for playing even the easy stuff in a way that makes it sound impossible.
Yes, but there are a number of musicians who do not fit this standard, such as Jordan Rudess, for example.
He doesn't make things sound easy, on the contrary, at various times he deliberately makes them sound as complicated as possible. (eg the solo at the end of This Dying Soul).
Mike Mangini in many ways resembles Jordan Rudess (it is no coincidence that I saw both of them being called robotic musicians). The difference is that Jordan has already been accepted as belonging to DT. Mike Mangini will never be.
Funny thing is, in JRs Patreon video with MP. JR isn't a numbers guy at all. When MP was explaining that stuff to him, he didnt even want to think like that in musical terms or he'll get lost...like 23/8. :lol
-
I have to think about Jordan in that way. Maybe I'm being too careless in my words; I don't listen to Jordan and think "wow, that's some impossible shit in 34/9 time, with inversions". There are a moments where he's playing something in unison with John and I think "wow, that ain't easy". But it's not the same. Sometimes I listen to Mangini and I'm thinking "where's my friggin' slide rule. Should I be taking notes here? Is this on the test?" And it's music; I want to get goosebumps. I want to almost drive off the road because I'm airdrumming. I want to be hoarse at the end of the song because I've been singing along to it with no regard for my vocal chords.
This isn't easy to explain since a lot of it is feel.
-
I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it?
Is it? My memories of those early I&W shows was that it was indeed music made by and for musicians. I mean, sure the songs had general appeal, but there was a virtuosity about it that appealed to musicians.
-
I have to think about Jordan in that way. Maybe I'm being too careless in my words; I don't listen to Jordan and think "wow, that's some impossible shit in 34/9 time, with inversions". There are a moments where he's playing something in unison with John and I think "wow, that ain't easy". But it's not the same. Sometimes I listen to Mangini and I'm thinking "where's my friggin' slide rule. Should I be taking notes here? Is this on the test?" And it's music; I want to get goosebumps. I want to almost drive off the road because I'm airdrumming. I want to be hoarse at the end of the song because I've been singing along to it with no regard for my vocal chords.
This isn't easy to explain since a lot of it is feel.
That's certainly a hard thing to explain because as you said, it's all feel and perception of the music. Personnally even when he explain some of his drumming parts and he goes on about how he plays a pattern with a hand, another one with the other and then layers 10 more with each of his toes, I never felt the things you mentionned at all from Mangini's drumming. He did a lot of things that I find really cool and exciting, and also plenty of parts that I feel are straightforward. Some of my favorite parts of his that come to mind are S2N as a whole and the long drum fill in Illumination Theory that leads into Live, Die, Kill. Are they complex? Is there any weird polyrhythmic stuff going on with them? Maybe, I don't really know. But if there is, I don't feel it. And why do I like them? I'm not sure. I just do. Although I can say I find S2N to be one of the grooviest song that the band has ever written. And not just in the Mangini era, but as a whole.
With that said, I'm not at all saying you're wrong. When I listen to music I don't necessarely listen for the complicated stuff either. I might pick up some of it, but I just enjoy and feel the music as a whole. It's always fascinating to see how people can react differently to the same thing. It's just a reminder that tastes, feel and perception can vary wildly from people to people.
On another note, I talked about the way Mangini will explain his drum parts. I've always wondered if he meticulously build his parts thinking about all those concepts or if he just naturally plays that stuff and afterwards he analyzes it. I imagine that at his level, he might not even consciously thing about some of it, but I don't really know.
-
I would like to know why you think the lyrics are cringy? And why you don't enjoy the "uninspired ballad-like moments"?
But, if you have the time to take to put on good headphones and escape into your imagination into the story of The Astonishing is where you can enjoy each piece of music.
First question...they're cringy because they're so bad, bloated and sophomoric. Also extremely bloated, taking far too long to make a point. Compare how many words JP needs to set the stage to how Neal Peart did it in 2112. If you think they're fine, hey, to each their own. I literally found myself cringing or rolling my eyes at so many lyrics from this album..
Second point....one of things that really annoys me about those who like TA is they often say those who don't simply don't listen to the album properly. First, it's highly insulting to suggest I'm incapable or haven't done so. Second, if the album requires some difficult-to-attain mindset in order to properly enjoy then I'd suggest it's a flawed piece.
-
I think it can be flawed and amazing at the same time.
It's a lot like 6 D's. Disc 1 is incredible and on it's own rates pretty high. Disc 2 is truly forgettable (IMHO), and if included brings down the album in the rankings.
Likewise, my Astonishing Abridged is incredible, and while I enjoy the entire thing as a whole, there's plenty to trim if I want to make meaningful playlist.
-
I would like to know why you think the lyrics are cringy? And why you don't enjoy the "uninspired ballad-like moments"?
But, if you have the time to take to put on good headphones and escape into your imagination into the story of The Astonishing is where you can enjoy each piece of music.
First question...they're cringy because they're so bad, bloated and sophomoric. Also extremely bloated, taking far too long to make a point. Compare how many words JP needs to set the stage to how Neal Peart did it in 2112. If you think they're fine, hey, to each their own. I literally found myself cringing or rolling my eyes at so many lyrics from this album..
Second point....one of things that really annoys me about those who like TA is they often say those who don't simply don't listen to the album properly. First, it's highly insulting to suggest I'm incapable or haven't done so. Second, if the album requires some difficult-to-attain mindset in order to properly enjoy then I'd suggest it's a flawed piece.
The last part wasn't meant at you specifically. I didn't say you were incapable of doing that.
I am just curious as to why the people whom dislike this album, dislike the album.
I don't understand what you mean by bloated, sophomoric, and bad? What makes them bloated, sophomoric, and bad? Is it the word choice, the way they are delivered, the melody and word choice combination?
-
I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it?
Well, not musicians ONLY, but that has certainly always been an element of DT's music. A huge percentage of their fan base are musicians of varying levels.
-
If DT were all chops and super heavy riffs and no musicality, they would not have been as popular as they've been. Let's look at Haken. They have most of the ingredients to be Dream Theater II. Some think they are. Besides not having as strong a singer as young James LaBrie, however, I don't find them to be as accessible to broader audiences, because their melodic writing is not as memorable as DT's, even some of modern DT. I'll admit The Astonishing has a few twinkles in the night sky (Moment of Betrayal for example) The reason DT's music is successful is because it bridges the gap between the progressive music of Yes and Rush, with the heavy rock and metal music of Metallica and Iron Maiden, while blending it with rock-jazz-fusion tendencies like Allan Holdsworth, Al DiMeola, or Steve Morse, and writing music that is both musically complex but also rhythmic, catchy, melodic, and fun.
Haken have not written their Pull Me Under or Panic Attack.
-
I mean, it's probably fair to say that 1985 and Prosthetic respectively could probably be considered decent parallels but even if not, I don't think Haken would gain by trying to strike that exact balance that Dream Theater has. Bands like Circus Maximus have made some brilliant music in that vein that's also memorable and complex but Haken, while seemingly being more of a niche band on the surface, has ultimately garnered much more attention. It also doesn't explain the sheer popularity of a band like Between the Buried and Me or Periphery, bands that on paper should be extremely inaccessible.
I think it ties in with a general point that I don't think it's even really possible for a progressive rock/metal band to get as big as Dream Theater because there's many bands nowadays that fill a niche that's similar, but taps into something more specialised, with the end result being that you'd now listen to like 20 bands with a certain vibe rather than the 1 that would've been your only choice at the time, with fan attention being much more divided as a result. That and the fact that the infrastructure of the music industry is simply much different nowadays than it was back in the 90s.
-
I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it?
Well, not musicians ONLY, but that has certainly always been an element of DT's music. A huge percentage of their fan base are musicians of varying levels.
and these bands (like DT) have their place for good reason. (Toto and Steely Dan were others to come to mind. Lots of fans of both bands are musicians.)
-
The Astonishing is better than DT12
:ontome:
-
That ain't saying much. They're both not that good.
-
I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it?
Well, not musicians ONLY, but that has certainly always been an element of DT's music. A huge percentage of their fan base are musicians of varying levels.
and these bands (like DT) have their place for good reason. (Toto and Steely Dan were others to come to mind. Lots of fans of both bands are musicians.)
Very true.
-
The Astonishing is better than DT12
:ontome:
I don't think that's very controversial, but I do agree. :smiley:
-
I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it?
Well, not musicians ONLY, but that has certainly always been an element of DT's music. A huge percentage of their fan base are musicians of varying levels.
and these bands (like DT) have their place for good reason. (Toto and Steely Dan were others to come to mind. Lots of fans of both bands are musicians.)
I'd throw Umphrey's McGee and Snarky Puppy on that pile too.
-
I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it?
Well, not musicians ONLY, but that has certainly always been an element of DT's music. A huge percentage of their fan base are musicians of varying levels.
and these bands (like DT) have their place for good reason. (Toto and Steely Dan were others to come to mind. Lots of fans of both bands are musicians.)
I'd throw Umphrey's McGee and Snarky Puppy on that pile too.
Good choices. Phish too, especially their earlier material. All these bands appeal to musicians and non-musicians alike.
Whereas bands like Transatlantic and Haken, mostly only appeal to musicians and/or niche audiences.
Transatlantic's music is upbeat and catchy but also proggy. However, they're too 'metal' for the hippies, and with too many parts for the druggies to remember it all, and for anyone else, the average concert goer/music listener is not into long compositions and anything that doesn't sound like music you hear on current hit stations or Hip-Hop/modern R&B stations. But if TA actually had more metal in their music they *might* be more popular.
If someone in Haken had the ability to write catchier hooks like Neal Morse can, and had a better singer to sing them, I think Haken would be much bigger. They have all the other right ingredients in their music though I don't know what they're doing lately, last 2 albums did nothing for me.
-
If someone in Haken had the ability to write catchier hooks like Neal Morse can, and had a better singer to sing them, I think Haken would be much bigger. They have all the other right ingredients in their music though I don't know what they're doing lately, last 2 albums did nothing for me.
I find this somewhat ironic given that Haken are bigger than Neal Morse, his band (who seem to have the adjustments that'd presumably make Transatlantic big) and probably Spock's Beard (who write generally more trimmed down tracks nowadays, so wouldn't have the inaccessibility) combined. The idea that a band like Haken could suddenly become DT level big by adopting a particular musical formula doesn't seem particularly lilkely to me. I don't think the lack of any major prog/prog influenced band to break into the metal mainstream since the likes of Tool, Opeth, Dream Theater, Mastodon, Gojira, Meshuggah etc. (with probably Periphery, Animals as Leaders and Tesseract coming the closest in the 2010s) is due to a fault in any of the newer bands, but simply due to the conditions of a different industry influenced by the increased presence of streaming as the primary method for consuming music.
-
If someone in Haken had the ability to write catchier hooks like Neal Morse can, and had a better singer to sing them, I think Haken would be much bigger. They have all the other right ingredients in their music though I don't know what they're doing lately, last 2 albums did nothing for me.
I find this somewhat ironic given that Haken are bigger than Neal Morse, his band (who seem to have the adjustments that'd presumably make Transatlantic big) and probably Spock's Beard (who write generally more trimmed down tracks nowadays, so wouldn't have the inaccessibility) combined. The idea that a band like Haken could suddenly become DT level big by adopting a particular musical formula doesn't seem particularly lilkely to me. I don't think the lack of any major prog/prog influenced band to break into the metal mainstream since the likes of Tool, Opeth, Dream Theater, Mastodon, Gojira, Meshuggah etc. (with probably Periphery, Animals as Leaders and Tesseract coming the closest in the 2010s) is due to a fault in any of the newer bands, but simply due to the conditions of a different industry influenced by the increased presence of streaming as the primary method for consuming music.
Maybe so, but I don't think Haken is anywhere near as popular as those other bands, which is why I lumped them in with TA. I don't see Haken discussed much of anywhere outside of DT forums, maybe progarchives. Whereas most serious music fans have at least heard of most, if not all, of those bands you listed.
Take a band like Vulfpeck, I don't think they're even that good of a band (the individual members are great players though.) and their live shows are a mess...
They're more of a funky/jazzy kind of band, and they rose up out of no where a few years ago with no hits, and they play venues like Madison Square Garden now. It kind of makes no sense because I don't get the appeal compared to hundreds of other bands out there.
I think there's a sweet spot that most bands don't hit. Complex enough for the prog heads, but not deep enough for the kids who are there to party and let loose, and think deep thoughts, that is, until their fan base is established (see: Phish). DT seemed to fill that void in the 90s as well.
-
Take a band like Vulfpeck, I don't think they're even that good of a band (the individual members are great players though.) and their live shows are a mess...
They're more of a funky/jazzy kind of band, and they rose up out of no where a few years ago with no hits, and they play venues like Madison Square Garden now. It kind of makes no sense because I don't get the appeal compared to hundreds of other bands out there.
Vulfpeck's success doesn't make sense because you don't like them?
Fuck that shit, Vulfpeck is awesome. They are hella fun, and funkier than week-old gym socks. They are successful because what they do strikes a chord with lots of people, and they work their asses off.
-
Maybe so, but I don't think Haken is anywhere near as popular as those other bands, which is why I lumped them in with TA. I don't see Haken discussed much of anywhere outside of DT forums, maybe progarchives. Whereas most serious music fans have at least heard of most, if not all, of those bands you listed.
Take a band like Vulfpeck, I don't think they're even that good of a band (the individual members are great players though.) and their live shows are a mess...
They're more of a funky/jazzy kind of band, and they rose up out of no where a few years ago with no hits, and they play venues like Madison Square Garden now. It kind of makes no sense because I don't get the appeal compared to hundreds of other bands out there.
I think there's a sweet spot that most bands don't hit. Complex enough for the prog heads, but not deep enough for the kids who are there to party and let loose, and think deep thoughts, that is, until their fan base is established (see: Phish). DT seemed to fill that void in the 90s as well.
I mean, we can't really say that Haken has less potential for the metal mainstream than Gojira, Periphery, Tesseract or Meshuggah though, can we? Not to mention, you've kinda undermined your point with a band that you yourself can't really understand the appeal of. I think it goes to show that, especially in the prog world, sometimes this sort of thing is a game of luck (like, if the right news outlet happens to promote the band at the opportune time, for instance). I think a major factor to this is that as time goes on, it has become harder and harder to carve out a unique niche for a band that also has mass appeal, as well as still being able to be classed as progressive. Even the success that Haken has themselves I think we'll be seeing less and less of, honestly.
-
Take a band like Vulfpeck, I don't think they're even that good of a band (the individual members are great players though.) and their live shows are a mess...
They're more of a funky/jazzy kind of band, and they rose up out of no where a few years ago with no hits, and they play venues like Madison Square Garden now. It kind of makes no sense because I don't get the appeal compared to hundreds of other bands out there.
Vulfpeck's success doesn't make sense because you don't like them?
Fuck that shit, Vulfpeck is awesome. They are hella fun, and funkier than week-old gym socks. They are successful because what they do strikes a chord with lots of people, and they work their asses off.
I never heard of this band until this post. Decided to look them up. They're outstanding. They're like a modern day Steely Dan.
-
I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it?
Well, not musicians ONLY, but that has certainly always been an element of DT's music. A huge percentage of their fan base are musicians of varying levels.
and these bands (like DT) have their place for good reason. (Toto and Steely Dan were others to come to mind. Lots of fans of both bands are musicians.)
I think you're kind of proving my point. The biggest Toto fan I know of that isn't named "Kattleox/Firewings" is not a musician, and the second biggest fan - my daughter of all people - isn't either. The two biggest Steely Dan fans I know of aren't musicians. They do both, in other words. They didn't get to have umpteen records out and play arenas/ampitheaters because they were catering for people just waiting for that Cmaj7dim chord to pop up.
-
Honestly I think people would be surprised how well non-musicians take to supposed "music for musicians." I mean, take gaming for instance, like the soundtrack for the last two Doom games for instance, it's essentially just Meshuggah with electronics or Final Fantasy music generally, which is well known for being inspired by a lot of progressive rock. On paper, this stuff would be less accessible and yet when people hear that, sure you get musicians showing appreciation for its details, but you also get the audience and critics generally loving it too. Just because music is technically complex or sophisticated, doesn't mean that it's necessarily impenetrable for general audiences.
-
Honestly I think people would be surprised how well non-musicians take to supposed "music for musicians." I mean, take gaming for instance, like the soundtrack for the last two Doom games for instance, it's essentially just Meshuggah with electronics or Final Fantasy music generally, which is well known for being inspired by a lot of progressive rock. On paper, this stuff would be less accessible and yet when people hear that, sure you get musicians showing appreciation for its details, but you also get the audience and critics generally loving it too. Just because music is technically complex or sophisticated, doesn't mean that it's necessarily impenetrable for general audiences.
I agree...
And where I think it comes to is how the people are exposed to the music. The radio here in America doesn't have a big palette of genres they play. And most of the masses listen to the music through radio, in the mall, in the car, in the airport, everywhere people are exposed to the radio. Most people won't go out of their way to look for music they like either. It's what makes those of us whom search for music, music fans. So the music they know is only what is played through the NOMACS Radio.
It's what I see how different areas of the world have different music styles they all enjoy and are popular. Like Japan utilizing a lot of complex music.
-
Take a band like Vulfpeck, I don't think they're even that good of a band (the individual members are great players though.) and their live shows are a mess...
They're more of a funky/jazzy kind of band, and they rose up out of no where a few years ago with no hits, and they play venues like Madison Square Garden now. It kind of makes no sense because I don't get the appeal compared to hundreds of other bands out there.
Vulfpeck's success doesn't make sense because you don't like them?
Fuck that shit, Vulfpeck is awesome. They are hella fun, and funkier than week-old gym socks. They are successful because what they do strikes a chord with lots of people, and they work their asses off.
I should have specified that I do like their studio albums, but I do not like their live performances, that is why I can't wrap my head around their popularity (mostly in the jam band circuit) as a live band, and I am not the only one out there who feels the same way. They put on these jokey performances mixed with rants and random inside jokes. Look, I love live Zappa, he did that stuff too, but he'd then have the band turn around and blow your mind musically. Vulfpeck doesn't let up with the bad jokes, from what I've seen.
-
But they have kind of made their name on their live performances. That's why they keep having people come out to see them live.
-
Sorry if these have been posted before but I found these covers of A New Beginning and Our New World featuring different vocalists for each of the characters within the song. I thought they were well done and how they might be performed if in an actual stage play. For those who appreciate The Astonishing, I hope you enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtpJfCKPlZs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUh2DPe8CaM
-
But they have kind of made their name on their live performances. That's why they keep having people come out to see them live.
Not that I'm aware of, they only got that popular the last couple of years pre-covid due to the press coverage of "Sleepify" and touring the jam band festival circuit, not because of anything they did musically.
Then they are an anomaly. Again, I like their music, but their studio albums paint a different picture of a band compared to their live counterpart, and not like a Phish or Grateful Dead type band. I applaud them for their success, though.
-
I keep thinking the chorus to Three Days is in the song Lord Nafaryus.
And +1 for Vulfpeck!
-
The Astonishing is better than DT12
:ontome:
I don't think that's very controversial, but I do agree. :smiley:
The thing about DT12 is that it kinda failed to deliver what it sought to. It was the first album that could include MM in a deeper writing level and basically take the greatness of ADTOE and bring it to the next level but it kinda stayed halfway there. It's got pretty cool moments throughout but it definitely felt short to the "this album is a self-titled because it defines who we are" mantra.
TA, on the other hand, was a completely different beast so they are difficult to compare but I could definitely say with certainty that DOT was everything DT12 sought out to be and more (excluding Illumination Theory which is an amazing song by its own right).
-
I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band. I imagine they were also determined to put out a killer record as best as they could in the aftermath of MP leaving the band. The whole ordeal was probably a sort of adrenaline shot to the band. They also wrote it without MM, so they were still using MP's style as a template for the music. DT12, however, was the first one where they had to come up with new music with the new guy, and I think they hadn't settled into not working with MP anymore, creatively speaking.
Then they put out The Astonishing, which was a sort of a Dream Theater detour, and doesn't totally follow any growth or progression in the overall sound and style of the current lineup. TA just sounds like DT12, though not mastered as hot, with enhanced Disney acrobatics. DoT is the band finally finding their groove. It's mastered hot again, but the energy is high; however, I still think they're not totally there. DoT felt like they restrained themselves just a little too much, at least on Pale Blue Dot, and I'm just over the "here's how metal we are" songs at this point, like the first 3 tracks. It's not their strong suit IMO. I sort of feel like DT15 might be that album we've been waiting for since ADTOE, but I have low to moderate expectations.
-
Where DT12 failed, for me, is the production. I forgot who said it back when it was released, but "Blanket over the speaker" best describes the sound of DT12.
Everything sounds so muffled. And the snare sound choice doesn't help much at all.
I think if DT12 was produced like D/T is, DT12 would sound way better and it would enhance those songs a lot. The Bigger Picture would fit perfectly in D/T with this mix and production, Behind The Veil, and Surrender to Reason as well.
It's why I think D/T is a nice progression from DT12.
And why The Astonishing, I think, would've done better if it was released as..."John Petrucci presents The Astonishing as performed by Dream Theater"....But, then I think it's also implied based on the interviews JP gave about the album.
The Astonishing was a great detour that also let them experiment with different Production and Recording techniques, and arrangements, and melody choices.
-
I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band.
This is not true at all, it was all written in the studio by the 4 of them (expect BTS, which was written and brought by JP very late into the process). Sure, they could've had a couple riffs and ideas from before, but they never write while on tour, they write specifically for each album, in the studio.
I even remember them sharing about how they focused a lot on melody and the core elements of what made DT DT.
And after it was released, even MP commented sarcastically on the IAW/ADTOE similarities, which he never would've said if the stuff was written with him still in the band.
-
Where DT12 failed, for me, is the production. I forgot who said it back when it was released, but "Blanket over the speaker" best describes the sound of DT12.
Everything sounds so muffled. And the snare sound choice doesn't help much at all.
I'm sure you're probably aware but just in case: if you scoop some of the mids, as they say, you might find it better sonically.
It doesn't change my opinion that it's either their worst album or their second worst (I'm using "worst" rather than least favourite here deliberately) but at least it sounds better. Which is something :biggrin:
-
I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band.
What
-
Where DT12 failed, for me, is the production. I forgot who said it back when it was released, but "Blanket over the speaker" best describes the sound of DT12.
Everything sounds so muffled. And the snare sound choice doesn't help much at all.
Another issue I've realized lately is DT12's track order is no good. I listened to a very modified track sequence recently and it made me appreciate the album a little more, to the point where I don't think it's as bad as I used to consider it (it's still a low-tier DT album for me) and the experience was much more consistent and had a better flow and pace to the whole thing. The album goes back and forth between heavier tracks and lighter, often moody tracks. I forget the exact order of songs, I'd have to go through the album, but for some reason I feel like it worked better with all the heavier tracks first, besides the epic which still closes the album.
-
I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band.
What
I'm sure some riffs or melodies were constructed before MP left. They were about to start work on DT11 when MP left.
-
I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band.
This is not true at all, it was all written in the studio by the 4 of them (expect BTS, which was written and brought by JP very late into the process). Sure, they could've had a couple riffs and ideas from before, but they never write while on tour, they write specifically for each album, in the studio.
I even remember them sharing about how they focused a lot on melody and the core elements of what made DT DT.
And after it was released, even MP commented sarcastically on the IAW/ADTOE similarities, which he never would've said if the stuff was written with him still in the band.
While JP, JR, and JM are some of the best players in the business, and could play circles around any of us, and considering how quick they put complex, progressive rock music together, I doubt they come in with zero creative ideas when they begin work on a new album, and make everything up on the spot in front of everyone, then try to write the music and compose where certain parts will go. I'm not talking about improvising together and taking ideas from the jams, either, and putting things together, which is surely a way to write music. Just saying, there's no way a riff or a melody doesn't come to them when they're practicing, or even at any one time. You don't just tell your brain "OK, we're in the studio now, time to make up some new music" and if that is what they do, it could help explain their steady decline since before MP left.
-
And after it was released, even MP commented sarcastically on the IAW/ADTOE similarities, which he never would've said if the stuff was written with him still in the band.
If MP were in the band that album wouldn't be what it is, though I imagine there would be similar riffs and passages.
-
Another issue I've realized lately is DT12's track order is no good. I listened to a very modified track sequence recently and it made me appreciate the album a little more, to the point where I don't think it's as bad as I used to consider it (it's still a low-tier DT album for me) and the experience was much more consistent and had a better flow and pace to the whole thing. The album goes back and forth between heavier tracks and lighter, often moody tracks. I forget the exact order of songs, I'd have to go through the album, but for some reason I feel like it worked better with all the heavier tracks first, besides the epic which still closes the album.
I mean... Images (PMU to Another Day to Take the Time to Surrounded to Metropolis) and Scenes (Regression to Overture 1928 / Strange Deja Vu to Through My Words to Fatal Tragedy) do a similar thing (with more contrast too) and people don't complain about that.
-
I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band.
What
I'm sure some riffs or melodies were constructed before MP left. They were about to start work on DT11 when MP left.
Meaning, they hadn't started yet.
Generally, they compose in the studio. With very rare exceptions, they don't bring previously written material to the studio, and there has never been any mention of them doing so with ADTOE. So I have no idea where you are getting this idea from.
-
There's also the fact that ADToE is a pretty drastic shift from Black Clouds. A lot of the kind of thrashy influence that had been present through the likes of A Rite of Passage and Constant Motion was suddenly gone and there was more of a balance in focus between the instruments rather than the drum/guitar focused attack of Black Clouds. Even if they'd have been inspired by the odd jam here and there with MP in the band, that may have been replaced by better ideas when the actual organised sessions came around, because that's a much better environment for that sort of thing. Interestingly, that and TA are the only two albums where a drummer was not present during the main writing process. This would make DT15 the first time Mike Mangini has had writing input in the main process for two consecutive albums.
-
I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band.
This is not true at all, it was all written in the studio by the 4 of them (expect BTS, which was written and brought by JP very late into the process). Sure, they could've had a couple riffs and ideas from before, but they never write while on tour, they write specifically for each album, in the studio.
I even remember them sharing about how they focused a lot on melody and the core elements of what made DT DT.
And after it was released, even MP commented sarcastically on the IAW/ADTOE similarities, which he never would've said if the stuff was written with him still in the band.
While JP, JR, and JM are some of the best players in the business, and could play circles around any of us, and considering how quick they put complex, progressive rock music together, I doubt they come in with zero creative ideas when they begin work on a new album, and make everything up on the spot in front of everyone, then try to write the music and compose where certain parts will go. I'm not talking about improvising together and taking ideas from the jams, either, and putting things together, which is surely a way to write music. Just saying, there's no way a riff or a melody doesn't come to them when they're practicing, or even at any one time. You don't just tell your brain "OK, we're in the studio now, time to make up some new music" and if that is what they do, it could help explain their steady decline since before MP left.
Yea, this is true. They have said before that when they do sound checks they sometimes come up with riffs and will record them or write them down. So, they do develop some ideas outside the studio. It is probably more accurate to say that the vast majority of the writing happens in the studio rather than saying it all happens there.
-
As I reflect on the Astonishing I still feel like the story really hurts the album. It is hard to say why. I think it is because the story feels like a contrived story rather than a real time or place that we are transported to with real characters with whom we can relate. I enjoy the album musically and really enjoyed seeing it live. However, it is more important to have a compelling story in a concept album because the ebb and flow of the music and the emotions associated with it that track the story are so much more important. It just doesn't work to have a seemly evil and wicked king and then say, "Oh, by the way, he is a really kind and loving family man."
-
While JP, JR, and JM are some of the best players in the business, and could play circles around any of us, and considering how quick they put complex, progressive rock music together, I doubt they come in with zero creative ideas when they begin work on a new album, and make everything up on the spot in front of everyone, then try to write the music and compose where certain parts will go. I'm not talking about improvising together and taking ideas from the jams, either, and putting things together, which is surely a way to write music. Just saying, there's no way a riff or a melody doesn't come to them when they're practicing, or even at any one time. You don't just tell your brain "OK, we're in the studio now, time to make up some new music" and if that is what they do, it could help explain their steady decline since before MP left.
That is exactly what they do mostly. Yes, they occasionally bring in riffs they came up with on tour, or something weird will happen like JP bringing in Wither by himself, but the overwhelming majority of what they have written since Jordan joined the band is together as a group in the studio.
With Scenes From A Memory, they had the bare bones 20 or so minutes of the original Metropolis Pt. 2 demo from which they mined some parts, but all of the rest was written in the studio.
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence was written in the studio.
Octavarium was written in the studio.
Systematic Chaos was written in the studio.
Black Clouds & Silver Linings was written in the studio.
With both Train of Thought and A Dramatic Turn of Events, they got together to do demos before going to the studio, like they used to do before Jordan joined the band. But the process was still largely the same, just delayed a little. This is well documented, so I'm not sure why you are having such trouble understanding or believing it.
With Dream Theater, they did bring in some parts that had been jammed on during the previous tour, but the composition of most of the music was still, you guessed it, done in the studio.
The Astonishing was a bit of an outlier, as JP and JR wrote all of the music together before convening the band in the studio to record. But with Distance Over Time, they were back to writing their music in the studio. And they have done that again with the album they are recording now.
-
As I reflect on the Astonishing I still feel like the story really hurts the album. It is hard to say why. I think it is because the story feels like a contrived story rather than a real time or place that we are transported to with real characters with whom we can relate. I enjoy the album musically and really enjoyed seeing it live. However, it is more important to have a compelling story in a concept album because the ebb and flow of the music and the emotions associated with it that track the story are so much more important. It just doesn't work to have a seemly evil and wicked king and then say, "Oh, by the way, he is a really kind and loving family man."
It's why JP decided to make the book, it goes deeper into the world of The Astonishing.
It's like this...The Astonishing Album is like watching a Disney Movie...Condensed and Watered-Down to showcase the main part of the story, which is The Love of music between both Gabriel and Faythe helped save Ravenskill from being War Stricken by Nefaryus, he did give Ahrys only Three Days to hand over Gabriel. And what convinced Nefaryus to even consider meeting with Gabriel first, instead of outright Invading Ravenskill, was Arabelle revealing to Faythe that Nefaryus was also into the Music that she discovered on Bugs Music Player, the treasure and gift she discovered in the castle halls, because Bug is Nefaryus. So, Nefaryus loving his only Daughter decides to meet with Gabriel only for his Daughter.
The Live Show was like a Broadway Play, I would look to the The Lion King as an example, being how they made it more of a live spectacle. You have the visuals, and settings, to help tell that story. You had the narration intro that JP intended to include in the album. The as loud as possible, volume and sound of the NOMACS. And I think, they did this as best as they possibly could, and do wish it could be a full broadway production.
The Book, has all the action, the background of the characters, and even more of the War stuff that people wanted as well. Here, you get an insight into just how brutal and devastating the NOMACS truly are. You read about how Evangeline slipped away, and how Xander became the meaning to Ahrys life since then. It's pretty sad really...
So to truly get the full effect of how the NOMACS sounded just turn the volume up on all the NOMAC tracks, with a good lower end system as well. You know how when you go to a show and stand right next to the subwoofer speaker and it you can feel it...Imagine that x1000.
What made me get into the story a lot more was reading the website that was available, and they even had that in the Play Book they gave out at the shows.
-
Don't you think though, that the album should be able to stand on it's own and not need more explanation and character development to make the story compelling?
Also, I think more explanation doesn't change the story and character decisions, it just feels in more details. It is the story itself that I have problems with. I have never felt this way about Scenes. Scenes is able to create more of an emotional connection with the characters on one disc rather than too.
I love the fact that they did a concept album and hope they do another one. I just wonder if the quality of the story had been better if the reception from fans would have been better.
I do like the Nomacs and the audio on a good system. I feel though that on the album they seem like a wasted opportunity. They are really just interludes breaking up the segments of the story rather than part of the actual story. It would have been so much better to feel the characters dread of them and that every time they start to sing in secret and experience the joy of it that booming sound of the Nomacs grows and they start killing or capturing people.
-
Don't you think though, that the album should be able to stand on it's own and not need more explanation and character development to make the story compelling?
Also, I think more explanation doesn't change the story and character decisions, it just feels in more details. It is the story itself that I have problems with. I have never felt this way about Scenes. Scenes is able to create more of an emotional connection with the characters on one disc rather than too.
I love the fact that they did a concept album and hope they do another one. I just wonder if the quality of the story had been better if the reception from fans would have been better.
I do like the Nomacs and the audio on a good system. I feel though that on the album they seem like a wasted opportunity. They are really just interludes breaking up the segments of the story rather than part of the actual story. It would have been so much better to feel the characters dread of them and that every time they start to sing in secret and experience the joy of it that booming sound of the Nomacs grows and they start killing or capturing people.
This—I firmly oppose the idea that if I don't like a record, it's because I didn't do enough research or didn't invest enough time in 'understanding' it. Sometimes, and in my opinion, this is the case with 'The Astonishing,' a band just lays an egg, and all of the justification and explanation in the world doesn't change the fact that it just doesn't resonate with a large contingent of the fanbase.
That being said, it's not a total loss—there's a lot to like here: James' performance, the production, and handful of songs make this a record I often revisit, albeit, through a highly selective playlist ;D
-
Don't you think though, that the album should be able to stand on it's own and not need more explanation and character development to make the story compelling?
Also, I think more explanation doesn't change the story and character decisions, it just feels in more details. It is the story itself that I have problems with. I have never felt this way about Scenes. Scenes is able to create more of an emotional connection with the characters on one disc rather than too.
I love the fact that they did a concept album and hope they do another one. I just wonder if the quality of the story had been better if the reception from fans would have been better.
I do like the Nomacs and the audio on a good system. I feel though that on the album they seem like a wasted opportunity. They are really just interludes breaking up the segments of the story rather than part of the actual story. It would have been so much better to feel the characters dread of them and that every time they start to sing in secret and experience the joy of it that booming sound of the Nomacs grows and they start killing or capturing people.
This—I firmly oppose the idea that if I don't like a record, it's because I didn't do enough research or didn't invest enough time in 'understanding' it. Sometimes, and in my opinion, this is the case with 'The Astonishing,' a band just lays an egg, and all of the justification and explanation in the world doesn't change the fact that it just doesn't resonate with a large contingent of the fanbase.
That being said, it's not a total loss—there's a lot to like here: James' performance, the production, and handful of songs make this a record I often revisit, albeit, through a highly selective playlist ;D
And I firmly oppose the idea that simply because it doesn't resonate with you, the band laid an egg. They did an excellent job telling a story, setting the mood, recurring musical themes and frankly not over-playing (wankery). So you don't really like the album - OK - I get it but you and others lose credibility by coming up with lame excuses as to why it's so bad or doesn't resonate. Simply saying you don't like it is enough........
-
The Book, has all the action, the background of the characters, and even more of the War stuff that people wanted as well. Here, you get an insight into just how brutal and devastating the NOMACS truly are. You read about how Evangeline slipped away, and how Xander became the meaning to Ahrys life since then. It's pretty sad really...
Honestly, I think the main mistake the album made was in not focusing in more on that. It's very strange that they didn't as well, given that it would've fit so well with the band's style and would've cemented the album's dystopian setting a bit more. Instead of all the NOMAC tracks as well, why not have at least one cohesive song that actually details the chaos they've caused in a musical way? I guess they wanted to keep the story lean (which, given that it reaches 130 mins... is kind of understandable), but it's hard not to wonder what else they could've done with this concept in the context of the album itself.
-
The Book, has all the action, the background of the characters, and even more of the War stuff that people wanted as well. Here, you get an insight into just how brutal and devastating the NOMACS truly are. You read about how Evangeline slipped away, and how Xander became the meaning to Ahrys life since then. It's pretty sad really...
Honestly, I think the main mistake the album made was in not focusing in more on that. It's very strange that they didn't as well, given that it would've fit so well with the band's style and would've cemented the album's dystopian setting a bit more. Instead of all the NOMAC tracks as well, why not have at least one cohesive song that actually details the chaos they've caused in a musical way? I guess they wanted to keep the story lean (which, given that it reaches 130 mins... is kind of understandable), but it's hard not to wonder what else they could've done with this concept in the context of the album itself.
I agree. But that's where I get into the point of Expectations. That War part is not what the focus of the story is. The focus of the story is about Faythe and Gabriel. They are the main characters, and the story follows them. The story really starts when Faythe notices how the people of Ravenskill are treated, yet are still happy and singing songs. This is where Gabriel meets Faythe and falls in love with her. From here is where we follow Gabriel, Faythe and Ahrys as he is the head of the Ravenskill militia and the one confronting Nefaryus. It's why the Ultimatum by Daryus is a big one as Daryus has his own plan to gain his Father's loyalty as he sees himself as the forgotten child fighting for his Father's pride, and rightful heir to the throne.
Already you have all that in the first half of the album. The second album is about that decision, and the results of the confrontations and decisions made during the first half. The Road To Revolution is that summary of the first half and the choices that each character has to make.
Think of it as the War is happening, but the focus is not on the War but the battle. And this battle is between Nefaryus and Ahrys, while the two opposing sides meet due to the love of music. As Faythe was drawn into Gabriel's music.
The dystopian aspect of the story is Music being forgotten to where it's played by Noise Machines and the only music the people know are what those Noise Machines create. Nobody creates their own music. It's why Gabriel's ability to play music is a gift. This is established in The Gift of Music.
To me, I think what would have really helped with the story telling would have been to cast different vocalists, rather than having LaBrie be the one and only cast member. LaBrie did an excellent job with his vocals and performance, and I enjoy his vocals on the album. It's just with him being cast as all the characters, it's like watching a one man broadway show, the performer could be the best, but it doesn't really help portray and tell the story. People have to really use their imaginations.
With different vocalists, the mind doesn't have to do this and the different vocalists let's your mind focus on the music without having to distinguish between who is who by having to hone in on JLBs vocal techniques. You instead hear a female voice and know that's Faythe, you hear let's say a Raspy vocal and you know it's Daryus.
This alone, I feel, would've helped a lot regarding the storytelling.
And those covers with different vocalists shows exactly this.
-
To me, I think what would have really helped with the story telling would have been to cast different vocalists, rather than having LaBrie be the one and only cast member. LaBrie did an excellent job with his vocals and performance, and I enjoy his vocals on the album. It's just with him being cast as all the characters, it's like watching a one man broadway show, the performer could be the best, but it doesn't really help portray and tell the story. People have to really use their imaginations.
With different vocalists, the mind doesn't have to do this and the different vocalists let's your mind focus on the music without having to distinguish between who is who by having to hone in on JLBs vocal techniques. You instead hear a female voice and know that's Faythe, you hear let's say a Raspy vocal and you know it's Daryus.
I disagree and I'm grateful that they didn't have a bunch of guest vocalists. That would've taken it even a further step away from DT than it was and wouldn't have made much of a difference at all.If you want more variation, they could've applied some different vocal filters and effects to JL's vocals to help vary and differentiate the characters, besides the different tones and singing styles that he used.
Changing up the story and moving it away from being a pure rock opera, adding in other elements would've been better. Maybe taking an approach halfway between what TA ended up being and what SFaM is would have improved it, and more than likely it would've been far less divisive for the fanbase.
-
I disagree and I'm grateful that they didn't have a bunch of guest vocalists. That would've taken it even a further step away from DT than it was and wouldn't have made much of a difference at all.If you want more variation, they could've applied some different vocal filters and effects to JL's vocals to help vary and differentiate the characters, besides the different tones and singing styles that he used.
I agree. I've never understood the clamor guest vocalists.
-
To me, I think what would have really helped with the story telling would have been to cast different vocalists, rather than having LaBrie be the one and only cast member. LaBrie did an excellent job with his vocals and performance, and I enjoy his vocals on the album. It's just with him being cast as all the characters, it's like watching a one man broadway show, the performer could be the best, but it doesn't really help portray and tell the story. People have to really use their imaginations.
With different vocalists, the mind doesn't have to do this and the different vocalists let's your mind focus on the music without having to distinguish between who is who by having to hone in on JLBs vocal techniques. You instead hear a female voice and know that's Faythe, you hear let's say a Raspy vocal and you know it's Daryus.
I disagree and I'm grateful that they didn't have a bunch of guest vocalists. That would've taken it even a further step away from DT than it was and wouldn't have made much of a difference at all.If you want more variation, they could've applied some different vocal filters and effects to JL's vocals to help vary and differentiate the characters, besides the different tones and singing styles that he used.
Changing up the story and moving it away from being a pure rock opera, adding in other elements would've been better. Maybe taking an approach halfway between what TA ended up being and what SFaM is would have improved it, and more than likely it would've been far less divisive for the fanbase.
The funny thing is too...I like it being the Rock Opera. And why I joke that I might be the only one who really likes The Astonishing concept and story.
I get it also, that JP decided to do something entirely different and that is make the album itself like an actual Opera. The Linear Notes indicate this, and I like how in the Special Edition they included a Script of the lyrics, making look like an actual Opera Script that the performers use to practice with.
He took this concept to lean more towards that Opera side. Including the Set's and Where each place is set. It gives the setting of where the characters are, and what time of day. They Incorporated it even more with the way they did it Live. To make it even more like an Opera, they did the Phone thing, and it's actually what actual Operas require of you to do, they even go further and request you not leave your seat at all, and only for emergencies and to remain completely quiet.
I also am happy with what we got. Even though it could be way better, I am happy with what it ended up being. And am glad I got to experience the Live shows. I also do not mind that JLB sang all the parts as well, I actually enjoyed it. Especially live, considering how much Flak he gets about his live vocals.
I am also glad that JP decided to release it as a Dream Theater album and had the band play the parts. I am grateful they decided to take on this task, and they all did a great job, I think.
It's also why I do not consider The Astonishing as your typical Concept Album. It's a different type of album, that not many rock bands have done. And that is take the Opera approach to the Rock Opera concept. To Incorporate the aspects of being at and witnessing an Opera. The Live shows were as close to an Opera as you could get, while still keeping it as a Rock Concert.
-
I agree. But that's where I get into the point of Expectations. That War part is not what the focus of the story is. The focus of the story is about Faythe and Gabriel. They are the main characters, and the story follows them. The story really starts when Faythe notices how the people of Ravenskill are treated, yet are still happy and singing songs. This is where Gabriel meets Faythe and falls in love with her. From here is where we follow Gabriel, Faythe and Ahrys as he is the head of the Ravenskill militia and the one confronting Nefaryus. It's why the Ultimatum by Daryus is a big one as Daryus has his own plan to gain his Father's loyalty as he sees himself as the forgotten child fighting for his Father's pride, and rightful heir to the throne.
Already you have all that in the first half of the album. The second album is about that decision, and the results of the confrontations and decisions made during the first half. The Road To Revolution is that summary of the first half and the choices that each character has to make.
Think of it as the War is happening, but the focus is not on the War but the battle. And this battle is between Nefaryus and Ahrys, while the two opposing sides meet due to the love of music. As Faythe was drawn into Gabriel's music.
The dystopian aspect of the story is Music being forgotten to where it's played by Noise Machines and the only music the people know are what those Noise Machines create. Nobody creates their own music. It's why Gabriel's ability to play music is a gift. This is established in The Gift of Music.
The thing is, Les Miserables manages to balance an ongoing revolution with the more personal stories have and that's considered one of the best musicals out there. Hearing that JP was apparently inspired by Game of Thrones as well also seems very odd in how GoT is everything TA isn't. A big problem is that we're told that the people of Ravenskill live poorly... but we're only really told that and never shown it. Somewhat ironically, the problem lies in one of the more popular songs on the album, The Gift of Music. The song's entire purpose is to set the scene... for a 130 minute rock opera. We get basically no other tracks that describe the situation at large, because it immediately zooms in on a character to character basis. That's a huge burden on a pretty brisk 4 minute track. It's also a major example of the aformentioned habit of TA telling rather than showing. We're already sorta told what to think about the characters before they even say or do anything:
"Corruption, lust, and greed define the new nobility." okay but how
"Across the vast North Empire, most people struggle to survive." okay but how
Again, Les Mis doesn't have to say "we in pre-revolutionary France are poor" because the main character has to literally steal a loaf of bread to survive. The desperate actions of the characters themselves implies the setting without having to hold your hand. TA sorta tries to make up for this in Act of Faythe, where she shows concern for the plight of the people, but then swiftly goes on to detail her own backstory. Hell, even there she says "And they don’t seem to think this world’s so bad" which... why the hell would they be gearing up for a revolution then? Ahrys also again points out "For many years, I've seen our people starve and suffer. How many more will die before we stand and fight?" in A Better Life. This, as you can imagine, shows a similar issue to The Gift of Music, just from the perspective of a character this time. We've seen nobody die, starve or suffer. Apparently Evangeline died from a NOMAC, but this feels like an afterthought to make the world feel more visceral when in the actual album, all Ahrys says is "Peacefully, she slipped away". The opportunity to make this world feel far more dangerous was right there and JP blew it. So far, we haven't actually seen any agency from the people in this world either. As far as we're concerned, they're a cardboard cutout that amounts to an excuse for the main conflict, not as a group suffering under the heel of dystopian oppression. The only exception to their lack of agency being Hymn of a Thousand Voices, which is a beautiful track but uhh... feels a bit contrived as a plot point to say the least.
What if, instead of that, we got something from the perspective of the average citizen getting pummelled by one of the NOMACs as a kind of prologue piece, before even the overture? That's only the start of what'd be needed to properly set the tone, but it'd go a pretty long way to that end. As a side note, it's very odd that parts of technology appear to have gone backwards due to societal collapse... yet somehow we also have floating NOMACs.
-
I agree that there should have been a bit more setup to the story in order to increase the immersion. I had no clue Evangeline died from the NOMAC. Just having that somewhere in the album would at least make the NOMAC feel more like a threat. Speaking of the NOMAC, I think would have been nice it's to have some of the NOMAC sounds integrated into some of the songs. I like what they did with their tracks using those electronic sounds that contrast with the rest of the music and I get that they act as a transition tracks at key moments of the story, but they feel a bit disconnected from the whole story. I think there was a hint of that towards the end of A Savior in the Square, but I think that's pretty much it. I wish they had found a way to do it a bit more.
Overall I feel like the album is just missing a bit of setup to be able to stand on it's own. Like I remembered being puzzled at "remember Bug". Luckily there was the website with more details of the story because I would still be thinking that Bug was Nafaryus' band from his younger days, back when he was a musician :lol
Still a nice album though.
-
For a progressive rock album, The Astonishing tells a solid story. Of course it isn't as deep as The Wall, for example. But then again, The Wall would also pale in comparison to Game of Thrones. Rock concept albums are not written by George R.R. Martin or Victor Hugo. I feel it would be unfair to expect such a masterful storytelling from rock musicians.
-
For a progressive rock album, The Astonishing tells a solid story. Of course it isn't as deep as The Wall, for example. But then again, The Wall would also pale in comparison to Game of Thrones. Rock concept albums are not written by George R.R. Martin or Victor Hugo. I feel it would be unfair to expect such a masterful storytelling from rock musicians.
I mean, I think an album like Operation Mindcrime or The Wall manages it just fine. The key thing with those albums is that you feel the conflict within it. With The Wall, you see the living hell that Pink goes through that makes him the broken and spiteful man he becomes and in Operation Mindcrime, you feel the futility of Nikki as he struggles against a corrupt system through what happens to him and what he's desperate enough to do. The ambition doesn't have to be to the level of Game of Thrones to provide a good story, it just has to serve its setting and purpose. The Astonishing unfortunately aims too high, because there's a dissonance between its choice of premise (a dystopian future with an oppressive police state headed by noise machines) and what it ends up focusing on (a Romeo and Juliet esque love story with little reference to the outisde premise). They try and explain that with the exposition of The Gift of Music, but in hindsight it ends up feeling like an obligatory nod rather than genuinely organic worldbuilding. Sure, Queensryche arguably do this with Revolution Calling, but the difference is that it's spoken through Nikki's cynical, disillusioned tone and that a lot of what he says actually gets backed up by what happens later in the story. It's not like they have to necessarily explore every corner of the setting (though it is a bit sad that with the huge map they made, only about 3 locations ended up being used), but it should at least achieve what it sets out to do and it is possibile to do that with even a limited toolset.
-
Don't you think though, that the album should be able to stand on it's own and not need more explanation and character development to make the story compelling?
Also, I think more explanation doesn't change the story and character decisions, it just feels in more details. It is the story itself that I have problems with. I have never felt this way about Scenes. Scenes is able to create more of an emotional connection with the characters on one disc rather than too.
I love the fact that they did a concept album and hope they do another one. I just wonder if the quality of the story had been better if the reception from fans would have been better.
I do like the Nomacs and the audio on a good system. I feel though that on the album they seem like a wasted opportunity. They are really just interludes breaking up the segments of the story rather than part of the actual story. It would have been so much better to feel the characters dread of them and that every time they start to sing in secret and experience the joy of it that booming sound of the Nomacs grows and they start killing or capturing people.
This—I firmly oppose the idea that if I don't like a record, it's because I didn't do enough research or didn't invest enough time in 'understanding' it. Sometimes, and in my opinion, this is the case with 'The Astonishing,' a band just lays an egg, and all of the justification and explanation in the world doesn't change the fact that it just doesn't resonate with a large contingent of the fanbase.
That being said, it's not a total loss—there's a lot to like here: James' performance, the production, and handful of songs make this a record I often revisit, albeit, through a highly selective playlist ;D
And I firmly oppose the idea that simply because it doesn't resonate with you, the band laid an egg. They did an excellent job telling a story, setting the mood, recurring musical themes and frankly not over-playing (wankery). So you don't really like the album - OK - I get it but you and others lose credibility by coming up with lame excuses as to why it's so bad or doesn't resonate. Simply saying you don't like it is enough........
Hey man, relax. I bought the record, I listened to the record, I went to the tour—I'm entitled to call the album whatever I want. Just as you are entitled to defend it to your heart's content. This is a forum where fans pick nits and split hairs, but nothing I said was meant as a personal indictment against you. Calling my opinion a 'lame excuse' and calling out my credibility is kinda out of bounds in my book, but hey man, you do you ;D
-
I agree. But that's where I get into the point of Expectations. That War part is not what the focus of the story is. The focus of the story is about Faythe and Gabriel. They are the main characters, and the story follows them. The story really starts when Faythe notices how the people of Ravenskill are treated, yet are still happy and singing songs. This is where Gabriel meets Faythe and falls in love with her. From here is where we follow Gabriel, Faythe and Ahrys as he is the head of the Ravenskill militia and the one confronting Nefaryus. It's why the Ultimatum by Daryus is a big one as Daryus has his own plan to gain his Father's loyalty as he sees himself as the forgotten child fighting for his Father's pride, and rightful heir to the throne.
Already you have all that in the first half of the album. The second album is about that decision, and the results of the confrontations and decisions made during the first half. The Road To Revolution is that summary of the first half and the choices that each character has to make.
Think of it as the War is happening, but the focus is not on the War but the battle. And this battle is between Nefaryus and Ahrys, while the two opposing sides meet due to the love of music. As Faythe was drawn into Gabriel's music.
The dystopian aspect of the story is Music being forgotten to where it's played by Noise Machines and the only music the people know are what those Noise Machines create. Nobody creates their own music. It's why Gabriel's ability to play music is a gift. This is established in The Gift of Music.
The thing is, Les Miserables manages to balance an ongoing revolution with the more personal stories have and that's considered one of the best musicals out there. Hearing that JP was apparently inspired by Game of Thrones as well also seems very odd in how GoT is everything TA isn't. A big problem is that we're told that the people of Ravenskill live poorly... but we're only really told that and never shown it. Somewhat ironically, the problem lies in one of the more popular songs on the album, The Gift of Music. The song's entire purpose is to set the scene... for a 130 minute rock opera. We get basically no other tracks that describe the situation at large, because it immediately zooms in on a character to character basis. That's a huge burden on a pretty brisk 4 minute track. It's also a major example of the aformentioned habit of TA telling rather than showing. We're already sorta told what to think about the characters before they even say or do anything:
"Corruption, lust, and greed define the new nobility." okay but how
"Across the vast North Empire, most people struggle to survive." okay but how
Again, Les Mis doesn't have to say "we in pre-revolutionary France are poor" because the main character has to literally steal a loaf of bread to survive. The desperate actions of the characters themselves implies the setting without having to hold your hand. TA sorta tries to make up for this in Act of Faythe, where she shows concern for the plight of the people, but then swiftly goes on to detail her own backstory. Hell, even there she says "And they don’t seem to think this world’s so bad" which... why the hell would they be gearing up for a revolution then? Ahrys also again points out "For many years, I've seen our people starve and suffer. How many more will die before we stand and fight?" in A Better Life. This, as you can imagine, shows a similar issue to The Gift of Music, just from the perspective of a character this time. We've seen nobody die, starve or suffer. Apparently Evangeline died from a NOMAC, but this feels like an afterthought to make the world feel more visceral when in the actual album, all Ahrys says is "Peacefully, she slipped away". The opportunity to make this world feel far more dangerous was right there and JP blew it. So far, we haven't actually seen any agency from the people in this world either. As far as we're concerned, they're a cardboard cutout that amounts to an excuse for the main conflict, not as a group suffering under the heel of dystopian oppression. The only exception to their lack of agency being Hymn of a Thousand Voices, which is a beautiful track but uhh... feels a bit contrived as a plot point to say the least.
What if, instead of that, we got something from the perspective of the average citizen getting pummelled by one of the NOMACs as a kind of prologue piece, before even the overture? That's only the start of what'd be needed to properly set the tone, but it'd go a pretty long way to that end. As a side note, it's very odd that parts of technology appear to have gone backwards due to societal collapse... yet somehow we also have floating NOMACs.
Again, because that isn't the main focus of the story. There is also a Narrator in the cast. He is the one singing "Corruption, Lust and Greed" he is the one describing the scenario to the listener. And introduces us to Ravenskill's secluded leader. Think of it as an opening scene in the movie where it's going across the land of The Great Northern Empire, and then it closes in on Ravenskill and pans into Ahrys' home, "where their secluded leader thrives" and then begins Ahrys' dialogue.
The narrator is breaking the Foruth Wall to tell us the situation at hand. If you've heard Hadestown it reminds me of that, how they use Hermes to break the fourth wall.
And why are you comparing it to a well known, well done play. JP isn't a playwriter, he is a musician. His lyrics are not that great either, so I did not expect poetic Shakespeare style lyrics and phrases in the dialogue.
That's why a lot of Musicals employ a lot of different people to write the script and write the music. HadesTown started out as a usual concept album then expanded into a broadway play that added a lot more to show the story instead of tell the story.
Also...I want to emphasize that The reason I know how Evangeline died is because it's in the book. I did not know how she died until I read that book and said, holy hell, those NOMACS are fatal.
But in the book, Evangeline does slip away peacefully, as in the way she ends up leaving the world at the time. To Ahrys, she slipped àway into death peacefully...Or as I read the lyrics again. He could be letting his people know that even though The NOMACS caused her death, she still went and slipped into the other world peacefully. A Better Life is Ahrys describing to us, and telling us the listener, why he fights for A Better Life.
The Book gives you all that information.
The album doesn't because that is not the main focus of the story. It's not about the great northern empire. It's about Gabriel and his gift of music, saving Ravenskill from being obliterated and to prevent war, as Faythe, the king's daughter, sees how these people, even in times of despair still seem happy and sing songs. Like how The Who's still sing even after The Grinch stole Christmas.
If you really want to know the story more and get all that information, I would highly suggest you read the book. It's all in there and actually the prelude begins with exactly what you described. It shows us how bad it is with The War going on and Ahrys being sneaky and planning the attack. Which they get discovered and then the NOMACS come and the soldiers of TGNE have things to prevent them from being affected by the NOMACS (I believe, I have to read it again, and I don't have the book with me to look and see).
For a progressive rock album, The Astonishing tells a solid story. Of course it isn't as deep as The Wall, for example. But then again, The Wall would also pale in comparison to Game of Thrones. Rock concept albums are not written by George R.R. Martin or Victor Hugo. I feel it would be unfair to expect such a masterful storytelling from rock musicians.
This. It's why I do not compare it to the many great Broadway shows or Operas. Because it isn't meant to be that bombastic. It's still meant to be a Rock Opera in an album format.
JP really wanted to have people experience The Astonishing first through the Live Shows. To receive that Playbook we got at the shows and immerse ourselves in what was presented in that Playbook, it had the descriptions that were on the website, and then take it in from there. Then buy the album.
I honestly would've like that a lot.
But, I am happy with what we got and with what JP was only capable of doing and taking on an immense story and concept such as this. Especially with him not being a good writer, or storyteller. He did great for what he had to work with. I knew this and did not expect him to write a top selling musical like Les Miserables.
-
Again, because that isn't the main focus of the story. There is also a Narrator in the cast. He is the one singing "Corruption, Lust and Greed" he is the one describing the scenario to the listener. And introduces us to Ravenskill's secluded leader. Think of it as an opening scene in the movie where it's going across the land of The Great Northern Empire, and then it closes in on Ravenskill and pans into Ahrys' home, "where their secluded leader thrives" and then begins Ahrys' dialogue.
I'm not saying it has to be the main focus, I'm saying that it would add more tension to the story to tell it in a more substantial way. I also don't have a problem with narrative exposition so long as it's not just an obligatory nod to certain elements of the setting. The way The Gift of Music sets the scene, I am expecting more than what ends up coming my way, plot wise.
And why are you comparing it to a well known, well done play. JP isn't a playwriter, he is a musician. His lyrics are not that great either, so I did not expect poetic Shakespeare style lyrics and phrases in the dialogue.
One thing I wonder when I see things like this is... why? Why should we arbitrarily hold prog metal musicians (a genre supposedly refined for its sophistication) to a lower standard than a playwriter? Just because JP is dabbling in an area (rock opera / musical) that he isn't familiar with, doesn't mean that he can't be judged by its usual standards. He's had time to refine his craft as a lyricist and has had enough experience with watching works of this nature to know what works and what doesn't work. Plus, nobody said that he couldn't go and get help to assist him in writing the best album he could if he wanted to. He worked on his own because it was his choice to, so this lowering of standards doesn't make much sense. Even then, other prog metal bands have presented excellent stories in their concept albums, so why not the band at the forefront of the genre?
Also...I want to emphasize that The reason I know how Evangeline died is because it's in the book. I did not know how she died until I read that book and said, holy hell, those NOMACS are fatal.
But I'm the book, Evangeline does slip away peacefully, as in the way she ends up leaving the world at the time. To Ahrys, she slipped àway into death peacefully...Or as I read the lyrics again. He could be letting his people know that even though The NOMACS caused her death, she still went and slipped into the other world peacefully. A Better Life is Ahrys describing to us, and telling us the listener, why he fights for A Better Life.
The Book gives you all that information.
The album doesn't because that is not the main focus of the story. It's not about the great northern empire. It's about Gabriel and his gift of music, saving Ravenskill from being obliterated and to prevent war, as Faythe, the king's daughter, sees how these people, even in times of despair still seem happy and sing songs. Like how The Who's still sing even after The Grinch stole Christmas.
This right here shows the exact problem. It not being the focus was their decision. I think many would agree that the main plot of a dystopian rock opera being a fairly sappy love story (I mean... they fall in love at first sight, come on, that's literally below Disney nowadays in terms of story sophistication) rather than something that more reflects the nature of that setting was the main misfire with it. Saying that it's okay that the album doesn't touch on this because the book does just reinforces the point that critics are trying to say. For all we know in the album itself, Evangeline just died of some random illness. Knowing that she died from the oppression of the state via the NOMACs changes the game and adds far more to the album's story, which is the important thing in this context, because we can guarantee that like 99% of TA's listeners haven't read a word of the book and likely won't in the future. I'm sure the book is good, but that doesn't change what the album itself is.
-
Again, because that isn't the main focus of the story. There is also a Narrator in the cast. He is the one singing "Corruption, Lust and Greed" he is the one describing the scenario to the listener. And introduces us to Ravenskill's secluded leader. Think of it as an opening scene in the movie where it's going across the land of The Great Northern Empire, and then it closes in on Ravenskill and pans into Ahrys' home, "where their secluded leader thrives" and then begins Ahrys' dialogue.
I'm not saying it has to be the main focus, I'm saying that it would add more tension to the story to tell it in a more substantial way. I also don't have a problem with narrative exposition so long as it's not just an obligatory nod to certain elements of the setting. The way The Gift of Music sets the scene, I am expecting more than what ends up coming my way, plot wise.
I hear you. It's not what you were expecting, and wanting from the story. To me, I did not expect that, as I was just going along and letting the story take me on the journey that JP wants to tell me. I wouldn't have minded if he did go more that route, but I myself, didn't expect that either. I was actually quite surprised they didn't go that route.
And why are you comparing it to a well known, well done play. JP isn't a playwriter, he is a musician. His lyrics are not that great either, so I did not expect poetic Shakespeare style lyrics and phrases in the dialogue.
One thing I wonder when I see things like this is... why? Why should we arbitrarily hold prog metal musicians (a genre supposedly refined for its sophistication) to a lower standard than a playwriter? Just because JP is dabbling in an area (rock opera / musical) that he isn't familiar with, doesn't mean that he can't be judged by its usual standards. He's had time to refine his craft as a lyricist and has had enough experience with watching works of this nature to know what works and what doesn't work. Plus, nobody said that he couldn't go and get help to assist him in writing the best album he could if he wanted to. He worked on his own because it was his choice to, so this lowering of standards doesn't make much sense. Even then, other prog metal bands have presented excellent stories in their concept albums, so why not the band at the forefront of the genre?
I agree, they can be judged and I think rightfully should be judged by the usual standards. I am just wondering why, when we all know that JP is not this, so why expect him to suddenly make this wonderful awesome epic concept album that is equivalent to Les Miserables. Seems like holding JP to some higher standard that he never could reach or achieve with what he had to work with. Of course, he could've went out and did all that, but that would require more time to look and search for a lyricist, and all that. What we have here too that I like is that it's like a short story book, or a condensed telling of the story. What I would like to see one day is a full on musical broadway style play, with added scenes, and stories and characters from the book. But that requires a lot of work to implement. And JP doesn't have the time for that.
Now this makes me imagine how different it would've been if he waited until now to make that concept, and what he could have done since he had the time now to really do it...
I don't know, but to me, I have not heard a concept album from a rock musician that incorporated this level of dialogue well enough for me, other than Ayreon. That is how narrative concept albums should be done, IMO. The other one that comes close is Avantasia, and his is more of that AOR kind of metal style, which fits perfect with the Avantasia concepts.
Also...I want to emphasize that The reason I know how Evangeline died is because it's in the book. I did not know how she died until I read that book and said, holy hell, those NOMACS are fatal.
But I'm the book, Evangeline does slip away peacefully, as in the way she ends up leaving the world at the time. To Ahrys, she slipped àway into death peacefully...Or as I read the lyrics again. He could be letting his people know that even though The NOMACS caused her death, she still went and slipped into the other world peacefully. A Better Life is Ahrys describing to us, and telling us the listener, why he fights for A Better Life.
The Book gives you all that information.
The album doesn't because that is not the main focus of the story. It's not about the great northern empire. It's about Gabriel and his gift of music, saving Ravenskill from being obliterated and to prevent war, as Faythe, the king's daughter, sees how these people, even in times of despair still seem happy and sing songs. Like how The Who's still sing even after The Grinch stole Christmas.
This right here shows the exact problem. It not being the focus was their decision. I think many would agree that the main plot of a dystopian rock opera being a fairly sappy love story (I mean... they fall in love at first sight, come on, that's literally below Disney nowadays in terms of story sophistication) rather than something that more reflects the nature of that setting was the main misfire with it. Saying that it's okay that the album doesn't touch on this because the book does just reinforces the point that critics are trying to say. For all we know in the album itself, Evangeline just died of some random illness. Knowing that she died from the oppression of the state via the NOMACs changes the game and adds far more to the album's story, which is the important thing in this context, because we can guarantee that like 99% of TA's listeners haven't read a word of the book and likely won't in the future. I'm sure the book is good, but that doesn't change what the album itself is.
And that is not JP's or the bands fault if people felt disappointed because they did get a fairly sappy love story.
I for one, enjoyed it, and liked it for what it is. And as everyone who hasn't read the book, I didn't know how Evangeline Died either, other than that she died while giving birth to Xander "Peacefully, she slipped away, the meaning of my life was born that day" whom is what Ahrys' passion for freedom was for, A Better Life for his son which he promised to Evangeline upon her death. I got this from the lyrics, and the music. It wasn't until I started reading the book did I know how she died, so I literally was...Astonished. :biggrin:
So for the information we got in the album, all we know is that Xander is the reason and the fire for the passion Ahrys has for fighting for hope, and the freedom of Ravenskill. This is why he is doing what he is doing, and why he sees Gabriel as the Savior with his Gift of Music.
The way I see it is, this is what JP wanted to tell with his story, this is what he wanted to focus on and this is what we got. He understood the want for more of the war, and other parts of the world of The Astonishing, so he decided to find someone who is a writer, albeit one that he can afford to hire, to write the story for him and to expand upon the world. That's what I mean by the focus of the story isn't what people wanted or expected, even based off of hearing The Gift of Music. It's like expecting how a movie is going to end based off the first scene of the movie, or the trailer.
I do understand the disappointment, with the expectation based on the trailers we were given. But that just makes me laugh because it's exactly the disappointment you see with movie goers when the movie isn't what the Trailers portrayed it as. Which would make it look like an action packed type of film because the trailers only showed the action scenes, and then the people got a drama. :lol
-
And that is not JP's or the bands fault if people felt disappointed because they did get a fairly sappy love story.
I for one, enjoyed it, and liked it for what it is. And as everyone who hasn't read the book, I didn't know how Evangeline Died either, other than that she died while giving birth to Xander "Peacefully, she slipped away, the meaning of my life was born that day" whom is what Ahrys' passion for freedom was for, A Better Life for his son which he promised to Evangeline upon her death. I got this from the lyrics, and the music. It wasn't until I started reading the book did I know how she died, so I literally was...Astonished. :biggrin:
So for the information we got in the album, all we know is that Xander is the reason and the fire for the passion Ahrys has for fighting for hope, and the freedom of Ravenskill. This is why he is doing what he is doing, and why he sees Gabriel as the Savior with his Gift of Music.
The way I see it is, this is what JP wanted to tell with his story, this is what he wanted to focus on and this is what we got. He understood the want for more of the war, and other parts of the world of The Astonishing, so he decided to find someone who is a writer, albeit one that he can afford to hire, to write the story for him and to expand upon the world. That's what I mean by the focus of the story isn't what people wanted or expected, even based off of hearing The Gift of Music. It's like expecting how a movie is going to end based off the first scene of the movie, or the trailer.
I do understand the disappointment, with the expectation based on the trailers we were given. But that just makes me laugh because it's exactly the disappointment you see with movie goers when the movie isn't what the Trailers portrayed it as. Which would make it look like an action packed type of film because the trailers only showed the action scenes, and then the people got a drama. :lol
Well the thing is, it kind of is their fault. It's really an issue of DT managing expectations quite badly here, both with the premise of the album in general as well as the lead off single of The Gift of Music, both in the context of it being released early and how it sets the tone for the album (which is a point that also could be directed towards Moment of Betrayal). It also doesn't help that in my, as well as many others' opinion, the story on its own merits... isn't that great. It's not even that love stories are bad inherently, but this is as cliched as it gets. As I implied, the whole love at first sight thing is something that Disney got over like... half a century ago? The reasons for them falling in love are that Faythe likes Gabriel's music and that Gabriel thinks Faythe is pretty. It's extremely shallow and it doesn't even really get better after that. Mind you, I'm giving all these criticisms as someone who actually really likes the music on it. I take The Astonishing for what it is, with my personal gripes with it and all. I mean hell, if it was a total disaster, I probably wouldn't even waste my energy on it. The main thing is just that I'm thinking about a lot of the missed opportunities with a project such as this one.
I agree, they can be judged and I think rightfully should be judged by the usual standards. I am just wondering why, when we all know that JP is not this, so why expect him to suddenly make this wonderful awesome epic concept album that is equivalent to Les Miserables. Seems like holding JP to some higher standard that he never could reach or achieve with what he had to work with. Of course, he could've went out and did all that, but that would require more time to look and search for a lyricist, and all that. What we have here too that I like is that it's like a short story book, or a condensed telling of the story. What I would like to see one day is a full on musical broadway style play, with added scenes, and stories and characters from the book. But that requires a lot of work to implement. And JP doesn't have the time for that.
Now this makes me imagine how different it would've been if he waited until now to make that concept, and what he could have done since he had the time now to really do it...
I don't know, but to me, I have not heard a concept album from a rock musician that incorporated this level of dialogue well enough for me, other than Ayreon. That is how narrative concept albums should be done, IMO. The other one that comes close is Avantasia, and his is more of that AOR kind of metal style, which fits perfect with the Avantasia concepts.
Honestly, this is kinda selling JP short. He's an inconsistent storyteller for sure, but he has his moments. He generally works better within a more general framework like Barstool Warrior than he does with a full narrative but even still, there's potential. I think like how Roger Waters needed Bob Ezrin to polish up The Wall, JP probably needed that kind of experienced figure to help guide him to something more impactful. After all, there's something to be said for artists recognising their own weaknesses and accounting for them. You also illustrate my point quite well by listing Ayreon and Avantasia as examples of rock operas projects that worked. It is definitely possible for that format to work in the context of Dream Theater. I also concur with the idea that JP should've sat on this for a few years and worked with industry veterans to make this as good as it could be. Hell, he could've even bypassed Dream Theater as a whole for this and made it a separate project while DT did their own thing, which would've made more sense than having one singer do vocals for a pretty large cast.
-
And that is not JP's or the bands fault if people felt disappointed because they did get a fairly sappy love story.
I for one, enjoyed it, and liked it for what it is. And as everyone who hasn't read the book, I didn't know how Evangeline Died either, other than that she died while giving birth to Xander "Peacefully, she slipped away, the meaning of my life was born that day" whom is what Ahrys' passion for freedom was for, A Better Life for his son which he promised to Evangeline upon her death. I got this from the lyrics, and the music. It wasn't until I started reading the book did I know how she died, so I literally was...Astonished. :biggrin:
So for the information we got in the album, all we know is that Xander is the reason and the fire for the passion Ahrys has for fighting for hope, and the freedom of Ravenskill. This is why he is doing what he is doing, and why he sees Gabriel as the Savior with his Gift of Music.
The way I see it is, this is what JP wanted to tell with his story, this is what he wanted to focus on and this is what we got. He understood the want for more of the war, and other parts of the world of The Astonishing, so he decided to find someone who is a writer, albeit one that he can afford to hire, to write the story for him and to expand upon the world. That's what I mean by the focus of the story isn't what people wanted or expected, even based off of hearing The Gift of Music. It's like expecting how a movie is going to end based off the first scene of the movie, or the trailer.
I do understand the disappointment, with the expectation based on the trailers we were given. But that just makes me laugh because it's exactly the disappointment you see with movie goers when the movie isn't what the Trailers portrayed it as. Which would make it look like an action packed type of film because the trailers only showed the action scenes, and then the people got a drama. :lol
Well the thing is, it kind of is their fault. It's really an issue of DT managing expectations quite badly here, both with the premise of the album in general as well as the lead off single of The Gift of Music, both in the context of it being released early and how it sets the tone for the album (which is a point that also could be directed towards Moment of Betrayal). It also doesn't help that in my, as well as many others' opinion, the story on its own merits... isn't that great. It's not even that love stories are bad inherently, but this is as cliched as it gets. As I implied, the whole love at first sight thing is something that Disney got over like... half a century ago? The reasons for them falling in love are that Faythe likes Gabriel's music and that Gabriel thinks Faythe is pretty. It's extremely shallow and it doesn't even really get better after that. Mind you, I'm giving all these criticisms as someone who actually really likes the music on it. I take The Astonishing for what it is, with my personal gripes with it and all. I mean hell, if it was a total disaster, I probably wouldn't even waste my energy on it. The main thing is just that I'm thinking about a lot of the missed opportunities with a project such as this one.
I agree, they can be judged and I think rightfully should be judged by the usual standards. I am just wondering why, when we all know that JP is not this, so why expect him to suddenly make this wonderful awesome epic concept album that is equivalent to Les Miserables. Seems like holding JP to some higher standard that he never could reach or achieve with what he had to work with. Of course, he could've went out and did all that, but that would require more time to look and search for a lyricist, and all that. What we have here too that I like is that it's like a short story book, or a condensed telling of the story. What I would like to see one day is a full on musical broadway style play, with added scenes, and stories and characters from the book. But that requires a lot of work to implement. And JP doesn't have the time for that.
Now this makes me imagine how different it would've been if he waited until now to make that concept, and what he could have done since he had the time now to really do it...
I don't know, but to me, I have not heard a concept album from a rock musician that incorporated this level of dialogue well enough for me, other than Ayreon. That is how narrative concept albums should be done, IMO. The other one that comes close is Avantasia, and his is more of that AOR kind of metal style, which fits perfect with the Avantasia concepts.
Honestly, this is kinda selling JP short. He's an inconsistent storyteller for sure, but he has his moments. He generally works better within a more general framework like Barstool Warrior than he does with a full narrative but even still, there's potential. I think like how Roger Waters needed Bob Ezrin to polish up The Wall, JP probably needed that kind of experienced figure to help guide him to something more impactful. After all, there's something to be said for artists recognising their own weaknesses and accounting for them. You also illustrate my point quite well by listing Ayreon and Avantasia as examples of rock operas projects that worked. It is definitely possible for that format to work in the context of Dream Theater. I also concur with the idea that JP should've sat on this for a few years and worked with industry veterans to make this as good as it could be. Hell, he could've even bypassed Dream Theater as a whole for this and made it a separate project while DT did their own thing, which would've made more sense than having one singer do vocals for a pretty large cast.
Precisely. All this I agree with and see no fault in either. I personally was not expecting a grand epic story from JP. The reason being I know based on his lyrics he isn't that great of a story teller or lyricist to make a story that isn't cliche or cheesy. Which is why I consider it like a Disney Movie version.
I also know that JP is a good lyricist as well, and I kind of did sell him short with that statement, but I do not see him as that personally. I like a lot of his lyrics actually.
There's also the aspect of having the means to look for and to afford what you actually want. And here, JP felt he didn't need or wanted a Bob Ezrin, because he felt trust in himself, and the band, that they can tell this story through a concept album.
The risk they took was knowing how Cliche it is. They knew this, and decided to do it anyways, because why not. :lol
While I do like the album, immensely, I also agree that it could be way, way better than what it actually is. But i'm not wallowing in what could've been, and I just accept it for what it actually is. And I am finding neat things within it in regards to how the music relates to the characters and thier moods and situations.
-
Yeah that's fair. I still really enjoy the album because I just see the story as a sort of mildly self aware whimsical escapade (kind of like the so-bad-it's-good appeal of Jojo or the 80s Transformers film) rather than telling a wholly serious story, essentially just embracing the cheesiness and cliche. There's a kind of captivating amateurism to the plot, in that way. It's just an approach that taps into a somewhat niche audience, rather that what a more polished affair might have garnered.
-
Yeah that's fair. I still really enjoy the album because I just see the story as a sort of mildly self aware whimsical escapade (kind of like the so-bad-it's-good appeal of Jojo or the 80s Transformers film) rather than telling a wholly serious story, essentially just embracing the cheesiness and cliche. There's a kind of captivating amateurism to the plot, in that way. It's just an approach that taps into a somewhat niche audience, rather that what a more polished affair might have garnered.
Yup. Especially coming from a Metal band. I compare it to how Kiss fans view The Elder.
Hell, whenever I hear Act of Faythe especially the Illiminal cover, I instantly picture someone like Ariel or Meg singing. While doing the Disney choreography, and I really imagine this with the part "My Music Player". Yet, I do not have a problem with it and I don't think any other word phrase besides Music Player would've worked.
Also, I blame this influence on JP having to constantly watch Disney because he had Daughters. :lol
-
Yeah that's fair. I still really enjoy the album because I just see the story as a sort of mildly self aware whimsical escapade (kind of like the so-bad-it's-good appeal of Jojo or the 80s Transformers film) rather than telling a wholly serious story, essentially just embracing the cheesiness and cliche. There's a kind of captivating amateurism to the plot, in that way. It's just an approach that taps into a somewhat niche audience, rather that what a more polished affair might have garnered.
Yup. Especially coming from a Metal band. I compare it to how Kiss fans view The Elder.
Hell, whenever I hear Act of Faythe especially the Illiminal cover, I instantly picture someone like Ariel or Meg singing. While doing the Disney choreography, and I really imagine this with the part "My Music Player". Yet, I do not have a problem with it and I don't think any other word phrase besides Music Player would've worked.
Also, I blame this influence on JP having to constantly watch Disney because he had Daughters. :lol
:laugh:
To be fair isn't JP already a self admitted Dis-nerd? Personally speaking, I find comparisons to Disney neither derogatory nor complimentary. I'm pretty neutral there, as I have no strong feelings either way about Disney's output.
-
Yeah that's fair. I still really enjoy the album because I just see the story as a sort of mildly self aware whimsical escapade (kind of like the so-bad-it's-good appeal of Jojo or the 80s Transformers film) rather than telling a wholly serious story, essentially just embracing the cheesiness and cliche. There's a kind of captivating amateurism to the plot, in that way. It's just an approach that taps into a somewhat niche audience, rather that what a more polished affair might have garnered.
Yup. Especially coming from a Metal band. I compare it to how Kiss fans view The Elder.
Hell, whenever I hear Act of Faythe especially the Illiminal cover, I instantly picture someone like Ariel or Meg singing. While doing the Disney choreography, and I really imagine this with the part "My Music Player". Yet, I do not have a problem with it and I don't think any other word phrase besides Music Player would've worked.
Also, I blame this influence on JP having to constantly watch Disney because he had Daughters. :lol
:laugh:
To be fair isn't JP already a self admitted Dis-nerd? Personally speaking, I find comparisons to Disney neither derogatory nor complimentary. I'm pretty neutral there, as I have no strong feelings either way about Disney's output.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkVjBPFPxKg :lol
-
Yeah that's fair. I still really enjoy the album because I just see the story as a sort of mildly self aware whimsical escapade (kind of like the so-bad-it's-good appeal of Jojo or the 80s Transformers film) rather than telling a wholly serious story, essentially just embracing the cheesiness and cliche. There's a kind of captivating amateurism to the plot, in that way. It's just an approach that taps into a somewhat niche audience, rather that what a more polished affair might have garnered.
Yup. Especially coming from a Metal band. I compare it to how Kiss fans view The Elder.
Hell, whenever I hear Act of Faythe especially the Illiminal cover, I instantly picture someone like Ariel or Meg singing. While doing the Disney choreography, and I really imagine this with the part "My Music Player". Yet, I do not have a problem with it and I don't think any other word phrase besides Music Player would've worked.
Also, I blame this influence on JP having to constantly watch Disney because he had Daughters. :lol
:laugh:
To be fair isn't JP already a self admitted Dis-nerd? Personally speaking, I find comparisons to Disney neither derogatory nor complimentary. I'm pretty neutral there, as I have no strong feelings either way about Disney's output.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkVjBPFPxKg :lol
21st December 2014......Astonishing started recording in January 2015. Obviously this video is the seed that planted The Astonishing.
-
Hearing that JP was apparently inspired by Game of Thrones as well also seems very odd in how GoT is everything TA isn't.
This is highly debatable, see. There is a considerable number of people on this board who think TA was shit, and there also is a considerable number of people who think GoT turned to shit in the last season/last couple of seasons. :biggrin:
-
The ending of The Astonishing > The ending of Game of Thrones. There is absolutely nothing to debate there. DT could have run out of room on Disc 2 and never included the ending, and it still would have been better than GOT.
-
Heh, well you get what I mean though. Game of Thrones in its prime eschews a lot of the cliche normally associated with its setting and puts a lot of twists on common tropes, while TA pretty much takes a bunch of archetypes... and doesn't really do anything with them.
-
Well, I don't think the ending of Game of Thrones was as awful as the internet mob thinks it was (it wasn't great, but still enjoyable for the most part, and the final sequence was marvelous), but I am not going to fight that fight again. :lol :lol
I will still submit that Our New World would have been the perfect end to The Astonishing. I do not mind the the-less title track, but it feels like a bit of overkill. Hymn... has that perfect penultimate feel and then Our New World is the great ender. And then there is another song at the end for some reason (preceded by the seemingly pointless Power Down NOMAC track).
-
I agree, except I like the powerdown. I am cheering!
-
tbh I think Power Down and Astonishing are prob necessary for the story as it was written. If it was just Our New World as a closer, it'd all feel a bit too sudden, whereas the title track kinda wraps everything up nicely.
-
Well, I don't think the ending of Game of Thrones was as awful as the internet mob thinks it was (it wasn't great, but still enjoyable for the most part, and the final sequence was marvelous), but I am not going to fight that fight again. :lol :lol
I will still submit that Our New World would have been the perfect end to The Astonishing. I do not mind the the-less title track, but it feels like a bit of overkill. Hymn... has that perfect penultimate feel and then Our New World is the great ender. And then there is another song at the end for some reason (preceded by the seemingly pointless Power Down NOMAC track).
I hear ya...The Astonishing song, It's the end of the Opera, the resolve of the epic climax. It's meant to summarize and bring the story to a conclusion, as it resolves all the conflicts of the characters. And the Power Down track symbolizes that after what occurred, there is now no need for NOMACS. Thus...PEACE HAS BEEN RESTORED, MUSIC REIGNS FOREVERMORE!!!
-
I guess. I suppose, for me, since I do not give a darn about the story (I love the record, yet have still never sat down and read the lyrics), I am thinking of it strictly from a musical standpoint, and while Astonishing is a nice enough song, it just has that "we have to have this crazy epic ending" last song, when Our New World felt like a more natural and less contrived album closer, IMO.
-
I guess. I suppose, for me, since I do not give a darn about the story (I love the record, yet have still never sat down and read the lyrics), I am thinking of it strictly from a musical standpoint, and while Astonishing is a nice enough song, it just has that "we have to have this crazy epic ending" last song, when Our New World felt like a more natural and less contrived album closer, IMO.
Completely agree with you on this one. PD + Astonishing work well for the context of the story/opera format, but musically ONW is the perfect closer. If I could finish my abridged TA playlist, ONW would be the closer for sure.
-
I agree with the title track tying up the loose ends. It's a good way to finish off the album. :tup
-
I think even musically, it would feel very strange to finish off such a musically eclectic album with what's a fairly straightforward tune (one that I was never really impressed by in terms of its hook either, with the whole repeat the title over and over again with small variations thing as the chorus) rather than the all encompassing grandeur of the title track. If the album was much more brief in scope, then maybe I could see it.
-
tbh I think Power Down and Astonishing are prob necessary for the story as it was written. If it was just Our New World as a closer, it'd all feel a bit too sudden, whereas the title track kinda wraps everything up nicely.
I think: Hymn -> Astonishing -> Our New World -> Power Down
This works slightly better to wrap things up for me.
-
Our New World is the track that lets everyone know, Faythe lives and together with Gabriel and Xander, will now build the new world....and it starts with shutting down the NOMACS.
Also, forgot to mention The Astonishing song ties up the loose ends by it being an end summarization of the themes. As each character speaks, the music plays their theme. Then we have the epic, ending full cast ensemble all singing together the theme of The Astonishing, which is introduced in the intro of this song, which is Faythes, Gabriel's, Ahrys, and Nefaryus themes all woven into one.
All those themes are what drive this album and each time each character speaks it's either this theme or a variation of their theme. A great example is in The Walking Shadow when you know it's Faythe because when the music comes to a calm, it's playing Faythes Theme, before the drums and guitars come in signifying Daryus' theme.
-
The Astonishing is already so littered with reprises that the title track feels less like "tying up loose ends" & more like "yeah, I get it already; please end". The Answer reprise is the only one that really engages me, because it actually feels like a development from the original & it's the only time (as far as I know) that the theme repeated in the album.
I prefer the more simplistic ending of Our New World, because I find it so much more memorable, & I'd rather have some things left open to interpretation than add another scene of exposition.
-
The Astonishing is already so littered with reprises that the title track feels less like "tying up loose ends" & more like "yeah, I get it already; please end". The Answer reprise is the only one that really engages me, because it actually feels like a development from the original & it's the only time (as far as I know) that the theme repeated in the album.
I prefer the more simplistic ending of Our New World, because I find it so much more memorable, & I'd rather have some things left open to interpretation than add another scene of exposition.
Those reprises are called Themes. And The Answer is Gabriel's theme as it's the first time we get to hear Gabriel. Which it expands, in When Your Time Has Come, and its in Chosen. "I don't pretend to have the answer, Never said I held the key" is similar too "And there's a reason now I see, The reason I've been chosen"
Also, "But I can't climb this mountain without you
No I can't face this on my own
With you by my side we will open his eyes
And the truth will deliver us home" The piano here as Gabriel's Theme which is similar to the guitar of The Answer.
It's not littered with Reprises. It's littered with repeated themes, as all these themes are what make up The Astonishing.
-
You know what I meant. :yeahright
The point is that I felt they were done in a very un-subtle way in the title track that I don't think is very engaging. It is cool that The Answer theme is repeated in a few different subtle ways that don't feel like carbon copies, because that allows it to do its job without having such diminishing returns.
I love a good noticeable reprise/theme in a prog album, but if it's done as many times as the brother theme in TA, it does start to feel a bit tedious, & I'd rather have it be done is a less obvious way.
-
You know what I meant. :yeahright
The point is that I felt they were done in a very un-subtle way in the title track that I don't think is very engaging. It is cool that The Answer theme is repeated in a few different subtle ways that don't feel like carbon copies, because that allows it to do its job without having such diminishing returns.
I love a good noticeable reprise/theme in a prog album, but if it's done as many times as the brother theme in TA, it does start to feel a bit tedious, & I'd rather have it be done is a less obvious way.
I hear ya. For as much as I like Brother Can You Hear Me, just having that as a standalone song for the Brother Theme, is a bit too much. But even at that, It holds a significance to the overall story. It's where Ahrys sits with Gabriel and they show their brotherhood as Gabriel fights with his music as his weapon, Ahrys' stands beside him alongside his brother.
All I am saying and going with I am saying, is that each song has it's significance to the story. And to me, I don't mind it. It's also one reason why I really want this expanded into a full musical play, it could also expand and make these themes more intricate than what they are. Like how the Lion "Reworks" the arrangements of the original songs, while still keeping them close enough to the original from the Disney Film. My disappointment with the musical is how they didn't incorporate Be Prepared, but I understand why they didn't include that part in the play.
It's actually kind of funny actually, because The Astonishing could have been way, way better executed and done. Mainly Lyrically, and a bit story wise. And yet, I've heard people describe Dream Theater the same way, "Dream Theater could've been the best band ever, if they would've implemented better vocals and lyrics", I think the way the vocals were on Images and Words alongside the Lyrics are why it's considered their best and a reason for it being highly received (this is disregarding them hitting the scene at the right moment and time with Pull Me Under), Pull Me Under actually has that, The Vocals and The Lyrics. SFAM has the same thing as well, The Vocals and The Lyrics are executed and done extremely well, and I think giving the lyric duties to each member whom wanted to do lyrics was a great decision. It would've been neat if JP would've asked the others to do this with a character, like each one gets a character to write their lyrics for. OR a song again like they did with SFAM.
But, in the end, I really enjoy that JP decided to go with this alone and trusting in the band to take the task at hand. It being a straight up Dream Theater album is one thing I like about this album as well. That it is a Dream Theater Album. I will keep repeating this, but I do hope one day, it will be done in a way that we all agree could make it just that much more better.
-
Yea, this is true. They have said before that when they do sound checks they sometimes come up with riffs and will record them or write them down.
No, that's not really accurate either. At least in the Mangini era, their soundchecks are always very short, and are almost always just rehearsing the start of the show, and or particular songs (or parts of songs) that they feel they need to go over to prep for the show. The only deviation I have seen from that is the first D/T show I saw where MM started messing around with the drum beat from 137, and the rest of the band (minus James) joined in.
-
Yea, this is true. They have said before that when they do sound checks they sometimes come up with riffs and will record them or write them down.
No, that's not really accurate either. At least in the Mangini era, their soundchecks are always very short, and are almost always just rehearsing the start of the show, and or particular songs (or parts of songs) that they feel they need to go over to prep for the show. The only deviation I have seen from that is the first D/T show I saw where MM started messing around with the drum beat from 137, and the rest of the band (minus James) joined in.
and (IIRC that is) the main groove for PBD (in 19/16) was worked on during soundchecks as well (according to Mike's tutorial on YT, where he mentions it in the beginning)
-
In other words, it has HAPPENED, but it is definitely not STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE.
-
Yes, I'm sorry.
-
Yes, I'm sorry.
Don't be sorry.
Be Max.
-
He's sorry to the Max.
-
Thanks for the laughs everyone.
-
Twice! I think the ending to Illumination Theory was written during a soundcheck too.
-
Twice! I think the ending to Illumination Theory was written during a soundcheck too.
Are you referring to the unnamed bonus track AFTER the end or the ending of the song proper itself?
Regarding that: I've always been meaning to break that little Jordan/John doodle off as a separate track, but never got around to ripping the S/T album. It's a nice contemplative, peaceful mood. I'd title it "True Slumbering"* as a bookend to the "False Awakening Suite" which starts the album.
*I couldn't think of a better word that was the opposite of "awakening" but I'm sure someone else could come up with something more apt.
-
IIRC, it wasn't the ending for IT, but that main theme that appears on the intro. I remember JP saying it was something he came up with during a soundcheck.
They never write full songs or try to do it on soundchecks though.
-
IIRC, it wasn't the ending for IT, but that main theme that appears on the intro. I remember JP saying it was something he came up with during a soundcheck.
They never write full songs or try to do it on soundchecks though.
Yes, you are right, the main theme was done at soundchecks but I think they did the ending/outro too.
@Lupton The ending of the actual song, not the easter egg.
-
IIRC, it wasn't the ending for IT, but that main theme that appears on the intro. I remember JP saying it was something he came up with during a soundcheck.
They never write full songs or try to do it on soundchecks though.
Yes, you are right, the main theme was done at soundchecks but I think they did the ending/outro too.
@Lupton The ending of the actual song, not the easter egg.
:facepalm: :D
Alright. I get it now. Thanks for clearing that up!
-
Regarding that: I've always been meaning to break that little Jordan/John doodle off as a separate track, but never got around to ripping the S/T album. It's a nice contemplative, peaceful mood. I'd title it "True Slumbering"* as a bookend to the "False Awakening Suite" which starts the album.
*I couldn't think of a better word that was the opposite of "awakening" but I'm sure someone else could come up with something more apt.
We're getting a bit off-topic, but I've always called that song "True Awakening", because I imagine that with the album starting with False Awakening Suite, the main content of the album is inside some kind of elaborate dream with different phases (a "dream theater" if you will). Then the calm after the storm is when the dream is over & the person returns to their normal life.
It's not really backed by anything else in the album, but I think it's a nice little headcanon. :D
-
Regarding that: I've always been meaning to break that little Jordan/John doodle off as a separate track, but never got around to ripping the S/T album. It's a nice contemplative, peaceful mood. I'd title it "True Slumbering"* as a bookend to the "False Awakening Suite" which starts the album.
*I couldn't think of a better word that was the opposite of "awakening" but I'm sure someone else could come up with something more apt.
We're getting a bit off-topic, but I've always called that song "True Awakening", because I imagine that with the album starting with False Awakening Suite, the main content of the album is inside some kind of elaborate dream with different phases (a "dream theater" if you will). Then the calm after the storm is when the dream is over & the person returns to their normal life.
It's not really backed by anything else in the album, but I think it's a nice little headcanon. :D
Huh. That's actually pretty cool. MUCH better than calling it Easter Egg. I would bet a large sum of money that if you mentioned that to JP, his response would be something like, "Man, I so wish I had thought of that!" And I say that because of comments I have made to him about music/lyrics where I have been like, "Hey, I just noticed this cool little tie in between X and Y" or "I just noticed this double meaning" or something like that, and he has said, basically, "Oh, that was totally unintentional, but I really wish I had thought of that!" If fact, to steer back toward the actual thread topic, I found a really cool one in The Astonishing that I was dead sure was intentional, and that was his response.
-
I used Audacity to break the end of the self-titled album into its own mp3 track in my iTunes and have it labeled as "End Credits." It is nice to have it as its own track, not to mention that I hate it when bands feel the need to have a bunch of silence before some hidden track. It's not clever or original; it's just aggravating.
-
Regarding that: I've always been meaning to break that little Jordan/John doodle off as a separate track, but never got around to ripping the S/T album. It's a nice contemplative, peaceful mood. I'd title it "True Slumbering"* as a bookend to the "False Awakening Suite" which starts the album.
*I couldn't think of a better word that was the opposite of "awakening" but I'm sure someone else could come up with something more apt.
We're getting a bit off-topic, but I've always called that song "True Awakening", because I imagine that with the album starting with False Awakening Suite, the main content of the album is inside some kind of elaborate dream with different phases (a "dream theater" if you will). Then the calm after the storm is when the dream is over & the person returns to their normal life.
It's not really backed by anything else in the album, but I think it's a nice little headcanon. :D
Huh. That's actually pretty cool. MUCH better than calling it Easter Egg. I would bet a large sum of money that if you mentioned that to JP, his response would be something like, "Man, I so wish I had thought of that!" And I say that because of comments I have made to him about music/lyrics where I have been like, "Hey, I just noticed this cool little tie in between X and Y" or "I just noticed this double meaning" or something like that, and he has said, basically, "Oh, that was totally unintentional, but I really wish I had thought of that!" If fact, to steer back toward the actual thread topic, I found a really cool one in The Astonishing that I was dead sure was intentional, and that was his response.
:rollin :rollin
I believe it too. It's why I wonder if Artists really intended things, and they just go along with whatever fan theory because it's better than what they actually intended.
Also, what part was this?
-
Also, what part was this?
It wasn't a musical part. It was the title of Savior in the Square. I commented to him that, from a literary analysis standpoint, it was a really cool double meaning. On the surface, it appears to refer to Gabriel. He is expressly called the savior, and the song focuses on him. But at the same time, it marks the first real appearance of Faythe, and her arrival in the square changes everything. And from a literary perspective, she is a "Christ figure" in that she ends up not only being sort of the catalyst for everyone's "salvation," but also dies and is "resurrected." So, really cool double meaning how, upon digging deeper, it also actually refers to her. JP stared at me for a second, and then laughed and said that that was really cool and he wished he thought of that, but it was actually unintentional.
-
Also, what part was this?
It wasn't a musical part. It was the title of Savior in the Square. I commented to him that, from a literary analysis standpoint, it was a really cool double meaning. On the surface, it appears to refer to Gabriel. He is expressly called the savior, and the song focuses on him. But at the same time, it marks the first real appearance of Faythe, and her arrival in the square changes everything. And from a literary perspective, she is a "Christ figure" in that she ends up not only being sort of the catalyst for everyone's "salvation," but also dies and is "resurrected." So, really cool double meaning how, upon digging deeper, it also actually refers to her. JP stared at me for a second, and then laughed and said that that was really cool and he wished he thought of that, but it was actually unintentional.
That is interesting. :lol
-
Regarding that: I've always been meaning to break that little Jordan/John doodle off as a separate track, but never got around to ripping the S/T album. It's a nice contemplative, peaceful mood. I'd title it "True Slumbering"* as a bookend to the "False Awakening Suite" which starts the album.
*I couldn't think of a better word that was the opposite of "awakening" but I'm sure someone else could come up with something more apt.
We're getting a bit off-topic, but I've always called that song "True Awakening", because I imagine that with the album starting with False Awakening Suite, the main content of the album is inside some kind of elaborate dream with different phases (a "dream theater" if you will). Then the calm after the storm is when the dream is over & the person returns to their normal life.
It's not really backed by anything else in the album, but I think it's a nice little headcanon. :D
That's an awesome interpretation, and I can totally feel it! I've officially renamed it thus. Tahnks!! :metal
-
I remember this album so distinctly because it came out the same week as The Witness and I consumed both together. If anything The Witness makes me think more fondly of The Astonishing because the game is one of the greatest creations of all time IMO. However when I revisit the album now in an isolated capacity, I find myself just skipping to Ravenskill and The Road to Revolution. I've also never been a fan of albums being broken into that many songs, I realize it a concept record, but still, 34 is too many for me.
Like others have said, the story means little to me but I should really commit to full re-listen of the record to see how I feel about it now.
-
I remember this album so distinctly because it came out the same week as The Witness and Iconsumed both together. If anything The Witness makes me think more fondly of The Astonishing because the game is one of the greatest creations of all time IMO. However when I revisit the album now in an isolated capacity, I find myself just skipping to Ravenskill and The Road to Revolution. I've also never been a fan of albums being broken into that many songs, I realize it a concept record, but still, 34 is too many for me.
Like others have said, the story means little to me but I should really commit to full re-listen of the record to see how I feel about it now.
It's always good to revisit things, to get a newer perception and to see just how much you have grown and changed since hearing that album.
The funny thing regarding the type of album The Astonishing is, is it's one where it requires an intricate amount of time. The phrase "People just don't have the time for music anymore" is what got JP to make the album, and the focus is on the music telling the story, using it as an emotional aspect. Taking the time to hear the emotions of each character through the music. And that is not for everyone because people just don't have the time for music anymore. And in The Astonishing world, this "time for music" evolved into where music isn't made by humans, it is made my Noise Machines, because their is no "time for music" anymore.
-
I remember this album so distinctly because it came out the same week as The Witness and I consumed both together. If anything The Witness makes me think more fondly of The Astonishing because the game is one of the greatest creations of all time IMO. However when I revisit the album now in an isolated capacity, I find myself just skipping to Ravenskill and The Road to Revolution. I've also never been a fan of albums being broken into that many songs, I realize it a concept record, but still, 34 is too many for me.
Like others have said, the story means little to me but I should really commit to full re-listen of the record to see how I feel about it now.
Actually, I do something a similar thing. I listen to Gift of Music through The Answer then skip ahead and listen to Ravenskill through to the end of Act I (even though there are some wonderful bits in the intervening skipped material). And I find there's not much carrot on that stick in Act II to keep going on, but I still think much of the music is amazing (Moment of Betrayal is killer!). Oh and I've tried to make it through the entire record so many times until eventually I realized that I only have so much time for this music. I just had to give up even trying. Hell, the only way I was eventually able to remember most of this record I had to break it up into micro-acts (i-xi) and give plenty of musical palette cleansing time. That is eleven seperate listens (or story installments if you will). And now I enjoy this record better for it; at least I know what I mostly like on this album. I'll revisit individual tracks I normally skip like A Life Left Behind or Three Days as standalone cuts now and then. Indeed there's top notch music here (and of course the world-class playing!). Just to give an example why I find it so difficult: OK. So...the intro to Begin Again is probably one of the more interesting things I've heard from Jordan/John, just stunning! But then I find the rest of the tune a cringing chore. It's like really annoying modern Christian worship stuff. I feel momentarily trapped in church youth group hell (bad memories!). But then the ending picks up a cool driving beat in attempted redemption and there's some lovely bells! Totally dig that ending! But ya see, it's stuff like this which why I just can't stomach listening to the WHOLE thing in one go. Too many "Doh!" slap-the-forehead moments for me. Too much time consumed. Not enough payoff. And I'll to add to the echo...the "brother" theme does get beaten to death. Just another example why this thing is probably more palatable in mercifully sparing doses.
-
...
So...the intro to Begin Again is probably one of the more interesting things I've heard from Jordan/John, just stunning! But then I find the rest of the tune a cringing chore.
...
That's why, for my abridged version, I cut that intro off of Begin Again and paisted it to Whispers on the Wind ;D (a pretty brutal thing to do with an artists work, but, well...). One could argue how WOTW is less cringy than BA, but for some reason I like it. But the point being: That intro is beautiful.
I only listen to the whole thing on long train rides, to kill time. When you're through it, 2+ hours have passed by.
-
I actually decided while listening to Chosen to make a mashup of that song, and other songs from The Astonishing. Basically, condensing the story from Chosen onwards.
The songs used are
Chosen
The Road To Revolution
Moment of Betrayal
The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
Losing Faythe
The Astonishing
I have it all pretty much done and and blended to the best possible way I can get it with what I have, and the knowledge I have of crossfading.
Now here's my dilemma...I am having trouble figuring out how to crossfade the end of Losing Faythe into The Astonishing. So far, I have figured out 3 different ways, that sound good to me, but aren't quite how I want it to blend. The one I have, and made more into a listenable track, sounds pretty decent to me.
Although I love the album, it is quite long and I also wanted to listen to the whole album without listening to the entire thing. I made my abridged The Astonishing ending epic by connecting the story through some musical themes I noticed. Now with the addition of Whispers and Hymn, I solved that dilemma of connecting Losing Faythe to Astonishing, and it sounds way better..
I was listening to my itunes on shuffle and my abridged version described above decided to play. While listening to it and reading along to the lyrics to see how it would fit to the overall story, I noticed the bolded and it doesn't explain how Gabriel saved Faythe from death. I then noticed I could still include both Whispers on The Wind and Hymn of A Thousand Voices. After a bit of trimming, I did just that.
I edited in both songs, and also added Power Down after Astonishing. It's neat how Losing Faythe flows into Whispers as a direct response to Nefaryus begging to Gabriel to use his gift, and the crossfade into Hymn flows great without the silence gap between the songs. Amazingly, Hymns epic ending also fades into the epic intro of Astonishing, creating the epic ending of my abridged version. It sounds sort of similar to Six Degrees and Octavarium in how they connect into their outro section of the epics.
My new dilemma now is do I want to take the time to re-do my video and reupload with this newer version....I just might because listening to this album fully with this is awesome as it begins with the introduction of the NOMACS and ends with the powering down of the NOMACS. I also want you guys to hear it and check it out as well. I'll try and not take a long time to upload it again. It sucks cause I had 43 views and 2 likes for the video. :lol
-
I imagine what an amazing background music this album would be while working if there is an instrumental version. :lol
-
Before I say how I felt, I should say now that I might have experienced this album differently if it were packaged as a JP/JR side project and presented on a stage with actors and costumes. I would be open to seeing that one day if they ever decided to do it, though I'd want to hear proper Broadway or musical theater vocalists and have JLB do a specific role.
As a DT fan, I was absolutely horrified by this record when it came out. The last piece of new music I'd heard from the band-- GOM single aside-- was Illumination Theory, which for me is a top 10 DT song only subordinate to I&W, ACOS and a couple other tunes maybe. I played TA once through and it was like torture. I also wondered if JM or MM were even on the record, let alone present in the song-writing sessions. I respect the amount of work that went into TA, and I love Disney. I am a grown man with a subscription to Disney+ so I can watch the favorites from my childhood (my kid is too young to watch TV). But Dream Theater is not good at this. I have been hoping the band would push themselves further but I did not want to hear them enter the musical theater genre, which is just a totally different thing. Years later I can say that it is still the only DT record I cannot stand. I thought FII, Octavarium and SC were mediocre, but I could tolerate them because I am a diehard JP fan. I could always find a couple tunes that would give me energy or a few guitar riffs and solos I could work on. I find it hard to tolerate TA at all. Long story short, the album aged exactly as it arrived: unlistenable-- GOM aside. I think this is at the bottom of a legendary discography unfortunately.
It's not about having enough time for music. I've been through Wagner more than once. I've played the crap out of every DT album. It's about Dream Theater and what they're good at. The only other thing I hope for is that the band did not interpret the mixed reaction as evidence that they shouldn't experiment. That is NOT what I am saying. We just didn't want DT to do Disney influenced musical theater. There are an infinite number of ways the band can evolve their sound without stepping into this other genre. Maybe one day bring it back in a different format, but with so much other music to listen to, I just cannot. DoT and, I hope, AVFTTOTW style Dream Theater all the way.
-
Meh my bike needs work on it so i've been doing the 60 minute bus ride to work and listened to an hours worth of The Astonishing. Still love it.
-
Before I say how I felt, I should say now that I might have experienced this album differently if it were packaged as a JP/JR side project and presented on a stage with actors and costumes. I would be open to seeing that one day if they ever decided to do it, though I'd want to hear proper Broadway or musical theater vocalists and have JLB do a specific role.
As a DT fan, I was absolutely horrified by this record when it came out. The last piece of new music I'd heard from the band-- GOM single aside-- was Illumination Theory, which for me is a top 10 DT song only subordinate to I&W, ACOS and a couple other tunes maybe. I played TA once through and it was like torture. I also wondered if JM or MM were even on the record, let alone present in the song-writing sessions. I respect the amount of work that went into TA, and I love Disney. I am a grown man with a subscription to Disney+ so I can watch the favorites from my childhood (my kid is too young to watch TV). But Dream Theater is not good at this. I have been hoping the band would push themselves further but I did not want to hear them enter the musical theater genre, which is just a totally different thing. Years later I can say that it is still the only DT record I cannot stand. I thought FII, Octavarium and SC were mediocre, but I could tolerate them because I am a diehard JP fan. I could always find a couple tunes that would give me energy or a few guitar riffs and solos I could work on. I find it hard to tolerate TA at all. Long story short, the album aged exactly as it arrived: unlistenable-- GOM aside. I think this is at the bottom of a legendary discography unfortunately.
It's not about having enough time for music. I've been through Wagner more than once. I've played the crap out of every DT album. It's about Dream Theater and what they're good at. The only other thing I hope for is that the band did not interpret the mixed reaction as evidence that they shouldn't experiment. That is NOT what I am saying. We just didn't want DT to do Disney influenced musical theater. There are an infinite number of ways the band can evolve their sound without stepping into this other genre. Maybe one day bring it back in a different format, but with so much other music to listen to, I just cannot. DoT and, I hope, AVFTTOTW style Dream Theater all the way.
Understandable response, and great for posting it. I also really think it would've sold better packaged as JP presents, but don't see the reason why, and it's like how JLB as a name sells better than Mullmuzzler. I also really do want it to be a Broadway style show, even if it's like Ayreons Theater Equation with a cast of singers. JLB could do Arhys or The Narrator.
What Dream Theater is good at is entirely up to the listener. And 'we'? Not I. I actually do not mind that DT wanted to do Disney influenced musical theater.
I find it interesting that when a band or whatever decides to actually branch out, and chooses to go down one stream, people get disappointed when they don't flow down their stream of choice. I find that funny in a way.
The Disney influence is because the range of the audience extends to include the younger music listeners, mainly the recluse females that are quiet and listen to music in school, which is the behavior and attitude of the Faythe character. In a way, relating to JP's own daughters.
Faythe also, did not only fall in love with Gabriel's sexy voice. :hat...Faythe fell in love with the fact that the music she found in the castle halls is being played live in front of her eyes to which she finally feels the power of music in a live setting. She also sees this in the people of Ravenskill, in how they gather in the square to when he plays and sings. Faythe fell in love with Live music, the same way us fans enjoy seeing the band live. The love (not the physical love for Gabriel) is what I feel is represented by Faythes theme.
Musically, The entire band did an excellent job on the record. Mangini and JM are there and make excellent contributions in terms of note choices and grooves. An example are the drums and the bass in the dialogue of Faythe and Arabelle in 'A Life Left Behind'. Lyrically, it could've been better worded, but JP is not a lyrical genius either and I did not expect a West Side Story, or Phantom of The Opera in terms of lyrics and dialogue.
-
We talking about The Astonishing, or Disc 2 of Six Degrees?
-
The Astonishing is one of my favorite albums. When I first heard it years ago, I enjoyed it but it didn't really stand out. Revisiting it this past year I fell in love with it. Have listened to it front to back more than Dream Theater and Distance Over Time. I can see why it wouldn't be someone's cup of tea though.
-
:umno:
-
5 years on, I havent listened to TA in a really long time, to me it's easily their worst record.
-
I appreciate how different the album is. For anyone asking DT to reinvent themselves this the album: bagpipes, tango like songs, the jazzy ending of Three days, short songs, melodies over wankery. It's one I don't revisit as often but when I do I like listening to the whole thing. It's the album where James steals the show for me, as the story demands a strong vocal performance.
-
I thought it was good when it came out, and today it sits at the very top as my favorite DT album. I still listen to it in full at least once per week. I have it on now as a matter of fact. Absolutely fantastic album, and if DT doesn't find a way to get a live version of it in my living room, I will never forgive them.
This is still pretty much my opinion today. While I have forgiven DT for not getting a live version of this into my living room, I'm still salty AF about it :lol I don't listen to the album quite as often as I used to, but that's only because I listen to NPR and podcasts these days. Music listening in general has been on the decline for me.
-
I thought it was good when it came out, and today it sits at the very top as my favorite DT album. I still listen to it in full at least once per week. I have it on now as a matter of fact. Absolutely fantastic album, and if DT doesn't find a way to get a live version of it in my living room, I will never forgive them.
This is still pretty much my opinion today. While I have forgiven DT for not getting a live version of this into my living room, I'm still salty AF about it :lol I don't listen to the album quite as often as I used to, but that's only because I listen to NPR and podcasts these days. Music listening in general has been on the decline for me.
:lol I'm quite positive there will be a live version released on the LNF Archives sometime next year :tup
-
I dont need to hear the album again but in worse quality.
-
I thought it was good when it came out, and today it sits at the very top as my favorite DT album. I still listen to it in full at least once per week. I have it on now as a matter of fact. Absolutely fantastic album, and if DT doesn't find a way to get a live version of it in my living room, I will never forgive them.
This is still pretty much my opinion today. While I have forgiven DT for not getting a live version of this into my living room, I'm still salty AF about it :lol I don't listen to the album quite as often as I used to, but that's only because I listen to NPR and podcasts these days. Music listening in general has been on the decline for me.
:lol I'm quite positive there will be a live version released on the LNF Archives sometime next year :tup
Is that an informed opinion?
-
I thought it was good when it came out, and today it sits at the very top as my favorite DT album. I still listen to it in full at least once per week. I have it on now as a matter of fact. Absolutely fantastic album, and if DT doesn't find a way to get a live version of it in my living room, I will never forgive them.
This is still pretty much my opinion today. While I have forgiven DT for not getting a live version of this into my living room, I'm still salty AF about it :lol I don't listen to the album quite as often as I used to, but that's only because I listen to NPR and podcasts these days. Music listening in general has been on the decline for me.
:lol I'm quite positive there will be a live version released on the LNF Archives sometime next year :tup
Is that an informed opinion?
I could be wrong, but I think JP mentioned in an interview that they have the live audio for TA, just no footages.
-
I thought it was good when it came out, and today it sits at the very top as my favorite DT album. I still listen to it in full at least once per week. I have it on now as a matter of fact. Absolutely fantastic album, and if DT doesn't find a way to get a live version of it in my living room, I will never forgive them.
This is still pretty much my opinion today. While I have forgiven DT for not getting a live version of this into my living room, I'm still salty AF about it :lol I don't listen to the album quite as often as I used to, but that's only because I listen to NPR and podcasts these days. Music listening in general has been on the decline for me.
:lol I'm quite positive there will be a live version released on the LNF Archives sometime next year :tup
Is that an informed opinion?
I could be wrong, but I think JP mentioned in an interview that they have the live audio for TA, just no footages.
Yep. I have no inside info at all :lol but JP did say that, and now that they're doing the LNFA thing I just think it's very very likely they'll end up releasing it soon-ish.
-
I thought it was good when it came out, and today it sits at the very top as my favorite DT album. I still listen to it in full at least once per week. I have it on now as a matter of fact. Absolutely fantastic album, and if DT doesn't find a way to get a live version of it in my living room, I will never forgive them.
This is still pretty much my opinion today. While I have forgiven DT for not getting a live version of this into my living room, I'm still salty AF about it :lol I don't listen to the album quite as often as I used to, but that's only because I listen to NPR and podcasts these days. Music listening in general has been on the decline for me.
:lol I'm quite positive there will be a live version released on the LNF Archives sometime next year :tup
Is that an informed opinion?
I could be wrong, but I think JP mentioned in an interview that they have the live audio for TA, just no footages.
Yep. I have no inside info at all :lol but JP did say that, and now that they're doing the LNFA thing I just think it's very very likely they'll end up releasing it soon-ish.
What's this LNF thing you speak of?
To the no footage point... That's a damn shame if they actually have solid audio recorded. Even if it was just a single camera mounted on a tripod behind the sound booth, I would have been elated to see/purchase it.
-
What's this LNF thing you speak of?
Lost not forgotten archives.
https://lostnotforgottenarchives.dreamtheater.net/
-
I thought it was good when it came out, and today it sits at the very top as my favorite DT album. I still listen to it in full at least once per week. I have it on now as a matter of fact. Absolutely fantastic album, and if DT doesn't find a way to get a live version of it in my living room, I will never forgive them.
This is still pretty much my opinion today. While I have forgiven DT for not getting a live version of this into my living room, I'm still salty AF about it :lol I don't listen to the album quite as often as I used to, but that's only because I listen to NPR and podcasts these days. Music listening in general has been on the decline for me.
:lol I'm quite positive there will be a live version released on the LNF Archives sometime next year :tup
Is that an informed opinion?
I could be wrong, but I think JP mentioned in an interview that they have the live audio for TA, just no footages.
Yep. I have no inside info at all :lol but JP did say that, and now that they're doing the LNFA thing I just think it's very very likely they'll end up releasing it soon-ish.
What's this LNF thing you speak of?
To the no footage point... That's a damn shame if they actually have solid audio recorded. Even if it was just a single camera mounted on a tripod behind the sound booth, I would have been elated to see/purchase it.
I actually would not mind seeing the live release be just that, one straight up view of the entire stage. That way we get to see the intricate screens.
-
I thought it was good when it came out, and today it sits at the very top as my favorite DT album. I still listen to it in full at least once per week. I have it on now as a matter of fact. Absolutely fantastic album, and if DT doesn't find a way to get a live version of it in my living room, I will never forgive them.
This is still pretty much my opinion today. While I have forgiven DT for not getting a live version of this into my living room, I'm still salty AF about it :lol I don't listen to the album quite as often as I used to, but that's only because I listen to NPR and podcasts these days. Music listening in general has been on the decline for me.
:lol I'm quite positive there will be a live version released on the LNF Archives sometime next year :tup
Is that an informed opinion?
I could be wrong, but I think JP mentioned in an interview that they have the live audio for TA, just no footages.
Yep. I have no inside info at all :lol but JP did say that, and now that they're doing the LNFA thing I just think it's very very likely they'll end up releasing it soon-ish.
What's this LNF thing you speak of?
To the no footage point... That's a damn shame if they actually have solid audio recorded. Even if it was just a single camera mounted on a tripod behind the sound booth, I would have been elated to see/purchase it.
I actually would not mind seeing the live release be just that, one straight up view of the entire stage. That way we get to see the intricate screens.
Don't they have the video files that were on the screens for the show? Couldn't they make a blu-ray with the videos and the audio be the live recording?
-
I would love having a recording of the camera at the soundboard even more than just the graphics. I want to see the band performing the songs, and the light show.
-
I've watched this video a few times. Seems like a compilation but it's real consistent.
https://youtu.be/IT92NO3pTnA
-
I've watched this video a few times. Seems like a compilation but it's real consistent.
https://youtu.be/IT92NO3pTnA
I've seen that as well.
The way the intro starts with a black screen then the NOMACS getting as the BIG NOMAC pops up and then the lights react to it. And that shockwave it sends out and how loud that low end was in person was awesome. That is exactly how those NOMACS are able to make Evangeline give birth to Xander.
Yeah, thats why I wouldn't mind a soundboard camera style of the videos. I actually would not mind if they took this compilation or gathered some of the Youtube videos, and added in the soundboard recordings to them. That way I can enjoy The X Aspect without that annoying guy talking throughout that song. :lol
-
I missed this tour, and was very upset about it. I generally loved The Astonishing. But this has been my go to video.
-
I missed this tour, and was very upset about it. I generally loved The Astonishing. But this has been my go to video.
I actually kept on watching it.... :lol
What this show made me learn is to not rely on a future dvd for a show I really want to see. Which is why I went to see two shows on this tour.
I knew this may be the only chance to see this awesome album live and I am glad I did.
Including the cool NOMAC in the lobby that gave you a name in The Great Northern Empire of The Americas as either a Ravenskill or TGNE was cool as well. Made the audience feel a part of the story as one of the townsfolk. :biggrin:
I just now thought of a really big missed opportunity. If they had these video screen files on hand, It would have been neat to have them do a live-stream or one of those videos, with them playing in front of a green screen with these visuals playing. Now that would've been awesome, I would've gladly paid for that.
-
I've watched this video a few times. Seems like a compilation but it's real consistent.
https://youtu.be/IT92NO3pTnA
Oh thank you for that, did not know this video existed. I saved to it watch it later :corn
-
No problem, V! This gives you a great view of the stage and screens, along with all of the other effects.
-
I'll check this out. I wasn't a fan during the original tour. I think the album is fine. Might be cooler in a live video.
-
I've watched this video a few times. Seems like a compilation but it's real consistent.
https://youtu.be/IT92NO3pTnA
Super cool! I'd definitely buy this if it surfaced on a LNF release.. :tup
-
I've watched this video a few times. Seems like a compilation but it's real consistent.
https://youtu.be/IT92NO3pTnA
Super cool! I'd definitely buy this if it surfaced on a LNF release.. :tup
I posted this before but will do it again but they could take fan videos like this and make s super cool DVD like Led Zep did on "How the West was Won".
-
I've watched this video a few times. Seems like a compilation but it's real consistent.
https://youtu.be/IT92NO3pTnA
Super cool! I'd definitely buy this if it surfaced on a LNF release.. :tup
I posted this before but will do it again but they could take fan videos like this and make s super cool DVD like Led Zep did on "How the West was Won".
They'd have way more footage to use if cameras weren't banned :(
-
The concert was SO MUCH BETTER than the album IMO. Just a better visual experience than a listening disaster.
-
I listening disaster? Well it's the best disaster I've ever heard then! :coolio
-
It wasn't a listening disaster for me. I imagined a beautiful world, and seeing the live visuals was like seeing a movie after reading a book.
-
What ruined it for me was the story. So bad. terribly cliche character names. terrible lyrics. Laughable animations, if you can call them that. When people say you need to treat it as more than album, I do just that and it just makes it awful. There is TON of killer music on this album though. If they could turn it into a 20-30 minute epic, that would be more palatable.
-
Listening to my 16 track 73 minute Astonishing Abridged tonight and I must say that James is so amazing on this.
The X Aspect :hefdaddy
-
I've been revisiting this album recently after the disappointment of AWFTTOTW and man it's fucking good.
A Life Left Behind might lowkey be one of their best intros of all time.
-
Listening to my 16 track 73 minute Astonishing Abridged tonight and I must say that James is so amazing on this.
The X Aspect :hefdaddy
What does the abridged version omit outside of the noise tracks?
-
What does the abridged version omit outside of the noise tracks?
13 additional tracks.
-
What does the abridged version omit outside of the noise tracks?
13 additional tracks.
:facepalm:
-
:neverusethis:
-
Listening to my 16 track 73 minute Astonishing Abridged tonight and I must say that James is so amazing on this.
The X Aspect :hefdaddy
What does the abridged version omit outside of the noise tracks?
This is my version..
The Gift Of Music
Lord Nafaryus
A Savior In the Square
When Your Time Has Come
Act Of Faythe
Three Days
Ravenskill
A Tempting Offer
The X Aspect
A New Beginning
Moment Of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell
Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
With the exception of I&W, I enjoy this mix as much as I do any of their albums.
-
No " Our New World "
Worst playlist EVER.
-
Listening to my 16 track 73 minute Astonishing Abridged tonight and I must say that James is so amazing on this.
The X Aspect :hefdaddy
What does the abridged version omit outside of the noise tracks?
This is my version..
The Gift Of Music
Lord Nafaryus
A Savior In the Square
When Your Time Has Come
Act Of Faythe
Three Days
Ravenskill
A Tempting Offer
The X Aspect
A New Beginning
Moment Of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell
Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
With the exception of I&W, I enjoy this mix as much as I do any of their albums.
Can I ask why you omit Our New World? Do you not like it? Do you not like it ending the album? Both?
-
I don't think Our New World is a great tune, and the whole point of making an abridged version is to cut out some of the fluff. I just don't think it really adds anything to my experience.
To me, I prefer the epic ending of the Hymn Of A Thousand Voices.
-
I don't think Our New World is a great tune, and the whole point of making an abridged version is to cut out some of the fluff. I just don't think it really adds anything to my experience.
To me, I prefer the epic ending of the Hymn Of A Thousand Voices.
I get that.
-
I love The Astonishing. There's tons of great music on it and I appreciate what they tried to do with it. I mean, reading people call the new album DT by Numbers kind of blows my mind. They are probably the same people that don't appreciate TA.
-
I love The Astonishing. There's tons of great music on it and I appreciate what they tried to do with it. I mean, reading people call the new album DT by Numbers kind of blows my mind. They are probably the same people that don't appreciate TA.
“Never Enough”
-
I've been revisiting this album recently after the disappointment of AWFTTOTW and man it's fucking good.
A Life Left Behind might lowkey be one of their best intros of all time.
My favorite song from TA and maybe a top 20-25 overall.
-
I've been revisiting this album recently after the disappointment of AWFTTOTW and man it's fucking good.
A Life Left Behind might lowkey be one of their best intros of all time.
My favorite song from TA and maybe a top 20-25 overall.
This!
I'd go one step further and say it is probably a top-15 for me. If TA was 90 minutes of 'that,' it'd be one of my favorite DT albums.
-
A Life Left Behind is a great song. It captures that moment of clarity for Faythe. With the intro, I hear that as if she's listening to it on her music player.
I also enjoy the part about Arabelle mentioning the disconnect between her and Faythe. How she lost her a long time ago, meaning she won't listen to her. It's cool how the relationship between a mother and daughter is shown in this song.
It has to be mentioned that I also feel the target audience of this story are the young adults specifically the young females. Since JP has daughters of his own, this may be his personal life interweaving into the concept. With the overall story's target audience being for the younger teen girls whom do have a passion for music, and not the music made by the noise machines that young girls are hip for.
Faythe is that representation of those young girls, it's why she feels the way she does in this song, and in the story of the album. (There were young teens and young adults that I saw cosplaying as Faythe for the Astonishing shows I saw).
There is a common theme as well in the concept of 'The Path That Divides' mentioned in Gabriel's song, When Your Time Has Come. Which every character experiences in the story. Faythes 'Path That Divides' is in A Life Left Behind. This is where she has that crossroads moment of which path to take, and she trusts in the sound of Gabriel's voice to know which choice is right. So she leaves the Empire to be in Ravenskill. To which Arabelle still being Faythes mother sends Daryus after her, whom also has his own 'Path That Divides' which is determined through jealousy, to gain his father's pride which Nefaryus has for Faythe and neglects Daryus, the future king. That is at least how Daryus perceives his father's pride for him.
-
The X Aspect is probably my favorite out of the 9 or so tracks I actually like. A few others are ALLB, ONW, TGoM...
-
I'll list my favorites...
Losing Faythe
Begin Again
Chosen
The Road to Revolution
The X Aspect
Act of Faythe
A Tempting Offer
Moment of Betrayal
The Gift of Music
A Better Life
A Life Left Behind
The Answer
-
The X Aspect is one of DT finest moments. I believe that.
-
The X Aspect is one of DT finest moments. I believe that.
At least I saw it once, before they chose to drop the song. It was amazing live.
-
I love The Astonishing. There's tons of great music on it and I appreciate what they tried to do with it. I mean, reading people call the new album DT by Numbers kind of blows my mind. They are probably the same people that don't appreciate TA.
I don't like the new album at all but I think The Astonishing is outstanding. It's got tons of great ideas on it, the playing is awesome and it feels like a concept should. Scenes was a more concise so it's easier to digest, which is why TA benefits from a full play-thru in one sitting.
-
spun this in it's entirety today. TA tour was my first DT show w my son (and probably his last as his tastes have changed a bunch) - forgot how many gems are here. This is such an underrated effort!
-
The X Aspect is one of DT finest moments. I believe that.
I agree. And I just adore the run from Ravenskill through The X Aspect. That run of songs alone lifts the entire album for me.
And I like your playlist. It isn't exactly what I would have chosen, but it's pretty nice as an abbreviated song list.
Any little nitpicks I have of the album can be summed up this way:
Act 1 is pretty much perfect from my perspective, with one exception: I still just don't feel the impact of the war and the GNE's oppression of the people, notwithstanding some things that are said about it in the first few tracks. I know the focus of the album is on how the conflict impacted and was impacted by the two families that make up the character list. But, for me, it would have more of an impact if the stakes for everyone else were given more weight, and I wish they dedicated a song to that aspect.
Act 2 starts incredibly strong with 2285 Entr/acte into Moment of Betrayal. But then I feel like it just meanders from Heaven's Cove through Whispers on the Wind. I wish this could be tightened up a bit. And one of the few times I find it hard to resist being deferential to artistic choice is the choice of samples for the crying when Faythe dies. To me, it is so distracting that it sucks out any potential emotional impact of her apparent death.
I know that extending Act 1 and trimming Act 2 would exacerbate what I already perceive to be an imbalanced album where Act 1 has a lot going on, but needs more, and Act 2 has a lot of songs that don't cover much territory. But that could also be remedies by altering the structure to make it a 3 act production rather than 2 acts. Have Act 1 introduce the characters and conflict (as it does), and end with A life Left Behind (with something inserted that deals better with the war). Act 2 escalates the conflict with Ravenskill through Moment of Betrayal. And keep Entr'Acte because it is a pretty cool instrumental, but for obvious reasons, change the title since it would no longer be an "entr-acte." Then the resolution comes in Act 3 with something of a trimmed down Heaven's Cove through Astonishing.
That's my personal wish list. But as with anything, I respect and enjoy what they actually did, so I hope my words aren't taken as being overly critical.
-
Brother, Can You Hear Me would've been the perfect opportunity to showcase that impact. This is where they could've introduced more of why Ahrys is the leader for the Ravenskill militia, by talking about the war.
But then, that's how the book starts, it begins talking about the war and the effects of the NOMACS. Could be why JP wanted to write the book too, so he could expand upon those elements he had no time or space to include in the album.
-
The X Aspect is one of DT finest moments. I believe that.
I agree. And I just adore the run from Ravenskill through The X Aspect. That run of songs alone lifts the entire album for me.
And I like your playlist. It isn't exactly what I would have chosen, but it's pretty nice as an abbreviated song list.
Any little nitpicks I have of the album can be summed up this way:
Act 1 is pretty much perfect from my perspective, with one exception: I still just don't feel the impact of the war and the GNE's oppression of the people, notwithstanding some things that are said about it in the first few tracks. I know the focus of the album is on how the conflict impacted and was impacted by the two families that make up the character list. But, for me, it would have more of an impact if the stakes for everyone else were given more weight, and I wish they dedicated a song to that aspect.
Act 2 starts incredibly strong with 2285 Entr/acte into Moment of Betrayal. But then I feel like it just meanders from Heaven's Cove through Whispers on the Wind. I wish this could be tightened up a bit. And one of the few times I find it hard to resist being deferential to artistic choice is the choice of samples for the crying when Faythe dies. To me, it is so distracting that it sucks out any potential emotional impact of her apparent death.
I know that extending Act 1 and trimming Act 2 would exacerbate what I already perceive to be an imbalanced album where Act 1 has a lot going on, but needs more, and Act 2 has a lot of songs that don't cover much territory. But that could also be remedies by altering the structure to make it a 3 act production rather than 2 acts. Have Act 1 introduce the characters and conflict (as it does), and end with A life Left Behind (with something inserted that deals better with the war). Act 2 escalates the conflict with Ravenskill through Moment of Betrayal. And keep Entr'Acte because it is a pretty cool instrumental, but for obvious reasons, change the title since it would no longer be an "entr-acte." Then the resolution comes in Act 3 with something of a trimmed down Heaven's Cove through Astonishing.
That's my personal wish list. But as with anything, I respect and enjoy what they actually did, so I hope my words aren't taken as being overly critical.
This sums up exactly how I feel. The first disc is more like two acts and the second disc is the third act. I guess it really doesn’t matter. But, it strangely makes it more of a chore to get through the second, shorter, disc. You used the word “meander”. I think that fits it perfectly. It was like they thought they had to spend a lot of time on what is basically two scenes, because it was so important.
-
Hilarious how "DT fans" call this album "unlistenable" when the performance and production is on par with the best of their catalogue.
What they really mean is TOO MUCH PIANO NOT ENOUGH METAL = SHIT
When Load came out I really liked it and it wasn't until years later that the internet informed me that I was supposed to hate it with every cell in my body.
I still find it funny that "SOME" metal heads cannot enjoy music unless its :metal DROP Z RIFFS AND BLASTS
-
OK...well, while I admire your love of the album and zeal in defending it, nobody (or at least, almost nobody) is arguing the points your are arguing against, so I don't know what to tell you.
-
:cool: When the album came out there were LOADS of "too much piano not enough prog" posts.
-
I imagine that the biggest problem with the album isn’t necessarily that it’s just not “metal” enough. I think a lot of it is that the album is structured like a musical, and not a typical rock album. A lot of the comparisons to Scenes From a Memory are because that album is like a normal Dream Theater album, the lyrics just happened to tell a story. The Astonishing is structured like a musical. So much of it is made up of songs that are just there to have transitions throughout the story. And if you’re not fully invested (or at least somewhat invested) in the story, then it’s hard to understand that.
Nearly every negative review I have read of TA has talked about it being “overlong” and full of “fluff”. Songs like The Answer, Brother, Can You Hear Me?, and Whispers On the Wind are there to transition and move the story along. Like being played during a set change.
Yes, there are people who don’t like the music or the story, or both. But it seems like a lot of people’s problems with it are that people wanted a typical DT album, and that isn’t it. A two and a half hour long album that involves a lot of attention (it took me a year to “get”) is something fans nowadays are going to be into. Especially the younger ones. I’m sure that’s the risk JP knew getting into it.
-
I feel bad for JP - knowing he wanted to do this for a long time - took a year to write it and a year to record it.
And it gets this huge backlash. OK maybe not huge - it was still a big selling album. But the tour was allegedly under-attended as well.
It's almost like Distance Over Time was 100% Dream Theater to try and win back some fans.
I doubt they'll be doing another concept album again.
-
One of the saddest things for me was he and JR started a pretty cool Youtube series going over all the intricacies of the album. They called it quits after just 3 episodes or so.
-
I feel bad for JP - knowing he wanted to do this for a long time - took a year to write it and a year to record it.
And it gets this huge backlash. OK maybe not huge - it was still a big selling album. But the tour was allegedly under-attended as well.
It's almost like Distance Over Time was 100% Dream Theater to try and win back some fans.
I doubt they'll be doing another concept album again.
This is true. The thing is that most of the people who saw those live shows, thoroughly enjoyed it. I’ve heard fans say that the live shows won them over and turned them on to The Astonishing. But you have to get people to go!
One of the saddest things for me was he and JR started a pretty cool Youtube series going over all the intricacies of the album. They called it quits after just 3 episodes or so.
Thanks for reminding me about this. I’m going to find time to watch them again. I think they even realized that there was so much going on musically, that it was going over people’s heads. They tried these to explain a little, but fans just didn’t care.
-
People don't care about story, characters, motifs, recurring themes, melody, yadda yadda
WER AM DUH DUBLE BASS
To be fair though i'm not a 'metal' head. I was bought up on whatever my dad listened to and he doesnt even like distorted guitar.
I dont listen to metal outside of my fave bands Metallica, Trivium, Dream Theater, Mastodon - who are more like a heavy Led Zeppelin than METAL.
So i'm way more into the song side of things than how low the guitar is tuned.
-
People don't care about story, characters, motifs, recurring themes, melody, yadda yadda
WER AM DUH DUBLE BASS
Don’t forget that on the new album there can’t be too much shred. And it can’t be too complex. DT fans are like Goldilocks. It has to be juuuuust right.
-
I imagine that the biggest problem with the album isn’t necessarily that it’s just not “metal” enough. I think a lot of it is that the album is structured like a musical, and not a typical rock album. A lot of the comparisons to Scenes From a Memory are because that album is like a normal Dream Theater album, the lyrics just happened to tell a story. The Astonishing is structured like a musical. So much of it is made up of songs that are just there to have transitions throughout the story. And if you’re not fully invested (or at least somewhat invested) in the story, then it’s hard to understand that.
Nearly every negative review I have read of TA has talked about it being “overlong” and full of “fluff”. Songs like The Answer, Brother, Can You Hear Me?, and Whispers On the Wind are there to transition and move the story along. Like being played during a set change.
Yes, there are people who don’t like the music or the story, or both. But it seems like a lot of people’s problems with it are that people wanted a typical DT album, and that isn’t it. A two and a half hour long album that involves a lot of attention (it took me a year to “get”) is something fans nowadays are going to be into. Especially the younger ones. I’m sure that’s the risk JP knew getting into it.
I've said exactly this as well. It's more of a Broadway style cd than a casual music album.
-
TA is still one of my favorite DT albums and always will be. There's only one kind of cringeworthy part as Bosk pointed out, is the crying samples when Faythe dies. You'd think after all that time spending two years to make this album, they could have addressed that one thing..lol! But instead they're like,, hey you know what, this is perfect.....let's use it. :facepalm:
Other than that, I can easily sit through the entire album and not skip a single track. The song writing and melodies are too powerful to ignore, and the variety. Not just JLB, but all DT members really shine throughout the record.
-
Hilarious how "DT fans" call this album "unlistenable" when the performance and production is on par with the best of their catalogue.
What they really mean is TOO MUCH PIANO NOT ENOUGH METAL = SHIT
For me, the problem is not that there are so many ballads, it's the story. I am a theatre nerd and I am well aware of what the music has to do at points to serve the story. The problem is that the story was bad and the lyrics were easily the worst on that album.
-
I don't know. I feel like some people take that shit way too seriously. Why is this story so bad, yet Scenes is so revered?
-
It's corny in places but worse than "ITS A BLESSING NO-ONE DIED !!! BY THE GRACE OF GOD ABOVE EVERYONE SURVIVED HHHOOOAAARRGRGGHHHH" ??
Or
" LET ME INTRODUCE MY BROTHA DISTINGUISHED ACCENT...ALLTHE FINEST WINES...IMPROVE WITH AGE!!! "
or
" LIKE A RECURRING NIGHTMARE HAUNTING MY DREAMS!!! "
Yeah TAC i don't think Astonishing is supposed to be 100% po-faced serious.
-
Though one would have to admit that "Then unexpectedly, I'm taken by surprise" was not JP's greatest moment as a lyricist.
-
It's corny in places but worse than "ITS A BLESSING NO-ONE DIED !!! BY THE GRACE OF GOD ABOVE EVERYONE SURVIVED HHHOOOAAARRGRGGHHHH" ??
Or
" LET ME INTRODUCE MY BROTHA DISTINGUISHED ACCENT...ALLTHE FINEST WINES...IMPROVE WITH AGE!!! "
or
" LIKE A RECURRING NIGHTMARE HAUNTING MY DREAMS!!! "
Yeah TAC i don't think Astonishing is supposed to be 100% po-faced serious.
But at least those were not 2 1/2 hours long.
Plus, you can pull way way more than a few lines out of the TA compared to The Count Of Tuscany or Nightmare.
-
It's totally cool if you (understood) don't dig The Astonishing.
-
I'm not sure why anyone would have any problem with the lyrics discussed above (or any in The Astonishing).
-
Hilarious how "DT fans" call this album "unlistenable" when the performance and production is on par with the best of their catalogue.
What they really mean is TOO MUCH PIANO NOT ENOUGH METAL = SHIT
For me, the problem is not that there are so many ballads, it's the story. I am a theatre nerd and I am well aware of what the music has to do at points to serve the story. The problem is that the story was bad and the lyrics were easily the worst on that album.
I would like to know why you think the story is bad?
The lyrics I can forgive because JP is not a poet, he is not a man good with words. But he can paint a picture and present a story with his lyrics.
Though one would have to admit that "Then unexpectedly, I'm taken by surprise" was not JP's greatest moment as a lyricist.
Remember, it's not JP speaking...It's Faythe. The lyrics that are on The Astonishing are not causal lyrics, they are dialogue. Those lyrics are exactly what I would hear a young female say, and it's also supposed to be her saying it to herself. We are getting a glimpse into Faythes thoughts.
Think of it like Wizard of Oz when they're in Oz getting freshened up and how those worker characters use the dialogue and word choice...like "pack that here. Pack that there, add a couple of brand new straw."
I was not expecting some grand ol opera type of musical structure or even thinking of it reaching those heights. Because JP is not one of these musical theater types. Doesn't mean he can't try and write one himself.
I would really, really, wish he could be able to work with a musical theater producer to come up with a musical of The Astonishing. Everything is there for it. It would only need minor tweaks and additions. But the hindrance is the music is quite complex as well.
-
Though one would have to admit that "Then unexpectedly, I'm taken by surprise" was not JP's greatest moment as a lyricist.
Remember, it's not JP speaking...It's Faythe. The lyrics that are on The Astonishing are not causal lyrics, they are dialogue. Those lyrics are exactly what I would hear a young female say, and it's also supposed to be her saying it to herself. We are getting a glimpse into Faythes thoughts.
I believe that is Gabriel's line, actually. But otherwise, your point still stands.
-
Does anyone else get " You're The Voice " by John Farnham vibes from Our New World ?
I don't know why I do - but something about Our New World reminds me of that song.
-
The story is super cheesy (and reminds me a lot of the librettos of some operas, which are also super cheesy).
But we live in a world where Avengers and Star Wars are big hits. We can forgive JP for the extravagance. :lol
-
Though one would have to admit that "Then unexpectedly, I'm taken by surprise" was not JP's greatest moment as a lyricist.
Remember, it's not JP speaking...It's Faythe. The lyrics that are on The Astonishing are not causal lyrics, they are dialogue. Those lyrics are exactly what I would hear a young female say, and it's also supposed to be her saying it to herself. We are getting a glimpse into Faythes thoughts.
I believe that is Gabriel's line, actually. But otherwise, your point still stands.
:facepalm: :loser: :rollin
You're completely right.
I still stand by that (Faythes internal dialogue gets an entire song), because he is speaking internally. Which is a moment in the scene, where if done in a musical, that would be a breaking the fourth wall moment of Gabriel singing to the audience. As he reveals his inner thoughts of his first reaction to seeing Faythe pop up from behind her father, where they lock eyes, and he continues on to perform his song, not only to The Royal Family, but specifically looking in Faythe's eyes as he performs. This is what Nefaryus notices when he is performing, he sees how Gabriels music is making Faythe infatuated with him. I could see Faythe standing there twirling her hair while he is performing his song, or looking how those girls look when seeing a pop star like David Bowie or Prince, or any one of those male singers that draw mostly all female crowds. :lol
I actually think Faythe is the main character of the album, and Gabriel is the supporting character. Because without Faythe there can be no peace (of mind). :biggrin: :yarr
-
After the disappointment of AVFTTOTW I've come back to Gabriel and Faythe's world...and I've realized how much I missed them!
It's such a great album, full of interesting melodies and ideas...and it's VERY PROG!
I know it's full of flaws and areas for improvements (I agree 99% with Bosk's analysis above), but - unlike the latest releases-, still it contains ALL of the elements I love of the band, including the "metal" side!
For example, I've just heard "The path that divides", and that riff...with the chorus as a "reinforcement"...wow...
I wish they will move again to these territories in the future, but my impression looking at the latest 2 album is that they were so shocked by the negative reactions that they will continue to sail in safe "metal" waters for some time...
-
Not sure what's disappointing about A View From The Top... It's like a Best of Dream Theater on one album.
-
I still enjoy The Astonishing. Disc one is really great, disc two is less exciting to me. I still wish they would've gotten a female vocalist for all the female parts though (despite James doing a great job overall).
-
I actually think Faythe is the main character of the album, and Gabriel is the supporting character.
Not sure if I ever mentioned this, but I remember talking to JP about the album, and I was geeking out over Savior in the Square. I pointed out that I loved the double meaning in the title, about how Gabriel is the obvious "savior" because that is how people refer to him, but that that title is itself a double meaning because, in literary terms, Faythe becomes a "Christ figure" by dying and resurrecting, and in doing so, brings the two divided factions together. John laughed and said, "Man, I really wish I had thought of something that cool, but that was actually not intended at all." :lol
-
I actually think Faythe is the main character of the album, and Gabriel is the supporting character.
Not sure if I ever mentioned this, but I remember talking to JP about the album, and I was geeking out over Savior in the Square. I pointed out that I loved the double meaning in the title, about how Gabriel is the obvious "savior" because that is how people refer to him, but that that title is itself a double meaning because, in literary terms, Faythe becomes a "Christ figure" by dying and resurrecting, and in doing so, brings the two divided factions together. John laughed and said, "Man, I really wish I had thought of something that cool, but that was actually not intended at all." :lol
:rollin
-
The only moment where the lyrics distract/annoy me in the album is the "my music player" section, and I wouldn't really say it's a problem with the lyrics themselves, but rather the execution of them.
-
The only moment where the lyrics distract/annoy me in the album is the "my music player" section, and I wouldn't really say it's a problem with the lyrics themselves, but rather the execution of them.
I laughed at this the first few times I heard it as well. But then I thought “what is she suppose to say? What else would she call it?” Maybe he could have figured a way around it but…I got past it.
-
Yeah,"my music player" is definitely goofy.
-
What's goofy about "Music Player"?
This is the part where I imagine a Disney princess, like Ariel singing about her gadgets she collected. Which in that song is Ariels' character song and what she desires, in other terms her "Path That Divides" scenario.
The "Music Player" is how Faythe discovered the Gift of Music, which is why she became so infatuated with a man who can actually play the music that is similar to the songs she hears on her music player.
Also, what else is there to call the device that plays music?
-
That's why I said my problem is the execution. It's just sang in a pretty weird/goofy way :eek
-
Still LOVE this album from start to finish and listen to it that way. The only part I never liked was the crying in Losing Faythe. It just sounds like 2 bad actors fake crying to me, but everything else is superb.
-
Considering IRL we’ve coalesced on “device” :facepalm: but yes may have been better to orient it albums or record player, even if it is an anachronism
-
.
-
A big part of the reason this album doesn't do it for me is indeed the story. And I have no problem with cheesy corniness either. I like a lot of Ayreon's albums quite a bit. I watch shounen anime for fucks sake. But TA isn't corny in a way that even really entertains me. The bloated runtime doesn't really help things.
Because TA never knows if it wants to be corny on purpose or not. The Gift of Music and Lord Nafaryus are absurd and kind of fun to listen to. But they exist on the same album as Begin Again and My Last Farewell.
-
Another really cool thing about this album is it's hard rock and heavy side. Moment of Betrayal is a stand alone track that could be on a standard/traditional DT album.
ONW, ANB, Chosen, and TGOM could all be on traditional type DT albums too.
ONW has a huge Journey vibe going on. :coolio
-
Considering IRL we’ve coalesced on “device” :facepalm: but yes may have been better to orient it albums or record player, even if it is an anachronism
Maybe so. But the lyrics for Yes's Revealing Science of God finally make more sense: "set for our strange device.." :azn:
-
Years later, I still enjoy quite a lot about TA despite its flaws. Despite being the band's most ambitious music statement, it seems destined to be forgotten after being panned by so many fans. I agree with the criticisms regarding the plotline and lyrics - it's hard to feel great about, even in the context of a more tongue-in-cheek 'musical theater' approach. I'm surprised they didn't hire an outside writer for the lyrics here; it would have prevented some of the backlash I think.
But I enjoy TA for what it is, and musically it's some of their most impressive and expressive work. I'd still put it in the top half of their discography.
-
Years later, I still enjoy quite a lot about TA despite its flaws. Despite being the band's most ambitious music statement, it seems destined to be forgotten after being panned by so many fans. I agree with the criticisms regarding the plotline and lyrics - it's hard to feel great about, even in the context of a more tongue-in-cheek 'musical theater' approach. I'm surprised they didn't hire an outside writer for the lyrics here; it would have prevented some of the backlash I think.
But I enjoy TA for what it is, and musically it's some of their most impressive and expressive work. I'd still put it in the top half of their discography.
I agree with this.
-
Years later, I still enjoy quite a lot about TA despite its flaws. Despite being the band's most ambitious music statement, it seems destined to be forgotten after being panned by so many fans. I agree with the criticisms regarding the plotline and lyrics - it's hard to feel great about, even in the context of a more tongue-in-cheek 'musical theater' approach. I'm surprised they didn't hire an outside writer for the lyrics here; it would have prevented some of the backlash I think.
But I enjoy TA for what it is, and musically it's some of their most impressive and expressive work. I'd still put it in the top half of their discography.
JP did hire a writer for the book. If he had enough funds, he could hire an outside producer for a musical production of the story. If there was a production person who was willing to start a crowdfunding campaign for such a thing, I'd donate for it.
Maybe he should've let JM help him with some more poetic lyrics to fill in for some spots.
-
Talking about whether JM or an outside writer should have helped with the lyrics I think misses the point.
1. Think about the story. Not much really happens. Rebel town in evil empire without music. One guy is good at music. Bad guys show up to take a look. Princess falls in love with guy. Runs away. Prince blackmails singer's brother. Singer's brother decides to betray then doesn't. Prince gets pissed, kills brother. Accidently almost kills his sister. Loses his hearing. Because lots of people don't want the princes to die, she doesn't. The King decides he's been a huge asshole and lets the village have freedom.
If you want to do a more romantic story about good and evil, then have some sweeping battles. I'd listen to a Dream Theater song about a village fighting for its freedom. Or do a political intrigue story with more three dimensional characters and more intrigue. Perhaps even merge those two things.
I think the more fundamental issue is that the more romantic good vs. evil story is about the power of good to inspire strength against evil, and the more complex political intrigue story is about how humanity is moved by power and self-interest. I think JP wanted to write something about how the power of love conquers all. Yes love can be a motivating factor but I don't know what that amounts to without the will to make the hard decisions because they're the right ones. Topics that JP has written good lyrics about.
2. The tone. This is the biggest thing about TA that doesn't work that I read everyone talk about without actually saying it. Some of the songs on TA are corny, some are straight forward drama, some are very serious. Some of the songs are from a rock opera, some are from musicals, some are from more straight forward prog metal concept albums. It's not that these things can't be blended but this album ends up containing a lot of tone whiplash.
An easy example of this is to just look at the first three songs (Dystopian Overture, The Gift of Music, The Answer). All three sound like they're from different albums. DO is a combination of rock opera and standard prog metal instrumental. It's not "super duper serious" but it takes itself seriously/sincerely and moves through various dramatic themes. The Gift of Music is more straight forward prog rock, but then has the cheesy (and great!) "My Brother Gabriel" section that sounds like something from a fun Broadway show. The Answer sounds more like typical prog rock/musical music, and the lyrics/tone are actually kind of depressing because they present a character who's so isolated from any traditional sense of humanity.
-
Listened to a lot of it last night for the first time in ages, and still love it. MM is sneaky fantastic on this.
-
This is my first time posting in this thread, and my first time looking at it since Jan 2017, but I think I am finally coming around to really like this album. I've been spinning Mangini-Era albums a lot lately since AVFTTOTW came out, but this one hasn't gotten as many, mostly due to its length, but the more I listen to it, the more I am really getting into it (finally).
-Marc.
-
After the disappointment of AVFTTOTW I've come back to Gabriel and Faythe's world...and I've realized how much I missed them!
Funny, cause DOT & AVFTTOTW are reminders of my disappointment in TA, but at the same time they help me to move on in a positive way. :p
-
Listened to a lot of it last night for the first time in ages, and still love it. MM is sneaky fantastic on this.
Yeah - I've posted before about how how MM subtly shines on this album He balances his parts with the story telling and this is the album that got his drum tones right. :metal
-
I've listened to it one time and that was back when it came out. Five years already? Wow! We saw the tour so I guess I heard it then also. It just didnt grab me. Just like this new release. Some of it is alright, but DT just doesn't seem to (at least to me) rock like they use to. I rarely find myself reaching for a DT cd to listen to anymore. Still 4 of the best musicians on the planet though and that will bring me to a show near me for sure.
-
Peter Orullian just posted his newest Breaking Absolutes episode and it's a good one...
When Dream Theater wrote their epic double CD concept album, I got the chance to embellish its story and write a full novel to do so. Here I've gone into an epic deep dive of: how I got the job working with John Petrucci and writing the novel; a discussion of the art and design and map and other conceptual visuals; the relating of certain scenes only in the book, which give helpful context for the record experience; and a full album track-by-track listen in which I share insights to the music and story, as well as helpful context to layer on added meaning to the album. This is a long show, meant for hardcore DT fans, musicians who may want to see a blueprint for how to put together an expansive and immersive concept album, or those just interested in how I approached the task of breathing life into a world at such scale.
Dream Theater's The Astonishing - Full breakdown, including novelization, Breaking Absolutes Ep. 45 (https://youtu.be/wmm6Rz9uKkM)
It's 7 hours and 15 min. long :omg:
Listening now and it's interesting and I am loving the discussion.
-
Peter Orullian just posted his newest Breaking Absolutes episode and it's a good one...
When Dream Theater wrote their epic double CD concept album, I got the chance to embellish its story and write a full novel to do so. Here I've gone into an epic deep dive of: how I got the job working with John Petrucci and writing the novel; a discussion of the art and design and map and other conceptual visuals; the relating of certain scenes only in the book, which give helpful context for the record experience; and a full album track-by-track listen in which I share insights to the music and story, as well as helpful context to layer on added meaning to the album. This is a long show, meant for hardcore DT fans, musicians who may want to see a blueprint for how to put together an expansive and immersive concept album, or those just interested in how I approached the task of breathing life into a world at such scale.
Dream Theater's The Astonishing - Full breakdown, including novelization, Breaking Absolutes Ep. 45 (https://youtu.be/wmm6Rz9uKkM)
It's 7 hours and 15 min. long :omg:
Listening now and it's interesting and I am loving the discussion.
Good. Update us on the bulletpoints.
-
Peter Orullian just posted his newest Breaking Absolutes episode and it's a good one...
When Dream Theater wrote their epic double CD concept album, I got the chance to embellish its story and write a full novel to do so. Here I've gone into an epic deep dive of: how I got the job working with John Petrucci and writing the novel; a discussion of the art and design and map and other conceptual visuals; the relating of certain scenes only in the book, which give helpful context for the record experience; and a full album track-by-track listen in which I share insights to the music and story, as well as helpful context to layer on added meaning to the album. This is a long show, meant for hardcore DT fans, musicians who may want to see a blueprint for how to put together an expansive and immersive concept album, or those just interested in how I approached the task of breathing life into a world at such scale.
Dream Theater's The Astonishing - Full breakdown, including novelization, Breaking Absolutes Ep. 45 (https://youtu.be/wmm6Rz9uKkM)
It's 7 hours and 15 min. long :omg:
Listening now and it's interesting and I am loving the discussion.
Me too. Peter is the most interesting guy to listen to. It's good to hear the way things were thought out and talked about.
I think I might do an hour each day. 7 hours, that would be rough!
-
Peter Orullian just posted his newest Breaking Absolutes episode and it's a good one...
When Dream Theater wrote their epic double CD concept album, I got the chance to embellish its story and write a full novel to do so. Here I've gone into an epic deep dive of: how I got the job working with John Petrucci and writing the novel; a discussion of the art and design and map and other conceptual visuals; the relating of certain scenes only in the book, which give helpful context for the record experience; and a full album track-by-track listen in which I share insights to the music and story, as well as helpful context to layer on added meaning to the album. This is a long show, meant for hardcore DT fans, musicians who may want to see a blueprint for how to put together an expansive and immersive concept album, or those just interested in how I approached the task of breathing life into a world at such scale.
Dream Theater's The Astonishing - Full breakdown, including novelization, Breaking Absolutes Ep. 45 (https://youtu.be/wmm6Rz9uKkM)
It's 7 hours and 15 min. long :omg:
Listening now and it's interesting and I am loving the discussion.
Me too. Peter is the most interesting guy to listen to. It's good to hear the way things were thought out and talked about.
I think I might do an hour each day. 7 hours, that would be rough!
I'm an hour in and he is discussing the map and how he integrated certain areas into the story.
-
Just listening to some parts of The Astonishing at the moment and one thing I will say is that; it is like if elements of SDOIT were combined with Ayreon, except with one singer.
Even though fans initially expected something like SFAM, the album is nothing much like it, although it has a few moments reminiscent of SFAM (such as the part in "The Walking Shadow" which sounds like Fatal Tragedy).
edit;
The Walking Shadow is an awesome track, the ending bit (before the stabbing) sounds like they'd been listening to Mr Bungle.
edit;
The ending portion of the album feels like a completely over-extended finale, but not of the good kind (such as Finally Free).
Hymn of a Thousand Voices is a great closer, even Power Down would go well after it as a fade out.
But instead they try to end the whole thing with two freaking ballads (Our New World and Astonishing), after the finale of Hymn of a Thousand Voices. It is such a bloated ending.
edit;
As I've always heard it with that melody in the titletrack:
"Brother, can you hear me? Many bow and cry Known across the desert I am the one who will not die" :lol
-
I think it's great that he is doing that, but I'm not listening to a 7 hour presentation by anyone.
-
I think it's great that he is doing that, but I'm not listening to a 7 hour presentation by anyone.
My first thought when I saw this was "did he ever pause the recording to go pee or something?" :lol
-
7 hours is rough. But it's good commute listening. Listened to about 45 minutes on the way in to work, and it is some really good stuff. Main takeaway: Peter and JP had TONS of discussion and bouncing ideas back and forth. It is incredible what went into this. Makes me love the album that much more. ...although, that being said, I think it would have been even better if Peter were involved earlier when JP was initially writing the lyrics and music.
-
7 hours is rough. But it's good commute listening. Listened to about 45 minutes on the way in to work, and it is some really good stuff. Main takeaway: Peter and JP had TONS of discussion and bouncing ideas back and forth. It is incredible what went into this. Makes me love the album that much more. ...although, that being said, I think it would have been even better if Peter were involved earlier when JP was initially writing the lyrics and music.
but it has piano and not enough metal so SUX
-
7 hours is rough. But it's good commute listening. Listened to about 45 minutes on the way in to work, and it is some really good stuff. Main takeaway: Peter and JP had TONS of discussion and bouncing ideas back and forth. It is incredible what went into this. Makes me love the album that much more. ...although, that being said, I think it would have been even better if Peter were involved earlier when JP was initially writing the lyrics and music.
but it has piano and not enough metal so SUX
Ironically enough, you say this more than anyone.
-
Not sure when I’ll listen, but a 7 hour work from the book author is pure gold, what a cool thing to have.
-
https://youtu.be/wmm6Rz9uKkM?t=4598
I time-stamped it to where he starts to go through the entire album and give his thoughts. They're very great thoughts and ones I also share at some parts. If anything, this is the part that should be of interest to some people.
-
relistening to this one again today - what fantastic songwriting on this album. It's a shame it got the reception it did, I would absolutely love to be able to throw in a blue-ray of this show. One of the best DT performances I have seen.
-
relistening to this one again today - what fantastic songwriting on this album. It's a shame it got the reception it did, I would absolutely love to be able to throw in a blue-ray of this show. One of the best DT performances I have seen.
This. The hook was set in early 2016, but seeing this show reeled me in! :metal
-
Yep, definitely one of my favorite DT experiences. The live show was above and beyond awesome! 💯 :coolio
-
Peter Orullian just posted his newest Breaking Absolutes episode and it's a good one...
When Dream Theater wrote their epic double CD concept album, I got the chance to embellish its story and write a full novel to do so. Here I've gone into an epic deep dive of: how I got the job working with John Petrucci and writing the novel; a discussion of the art and design and map and other conceptual visuals; the relating of certain scenes only in the book, which give helpful context for the record experience; and a full album track-by-track listen in which I share insights to the music and story, as well as helpful context to layer on added meaning to the album. This is a long show, meant for hardcore DT fans, musicians who may want to see a blueprint for how to put together an expansive and immersive concept album, or those just interested in how I approached the task of breathing life into a world at such scale.
Dream Theater's The Astonishing - Full breakdown, including novelization, Breaking Absolutes Ep. 45 (https://youtu.be/wmm6Rz9uKkM)
It's 7 hours and 15 min. long :omg:
Listening now and it's interesting and I am loving the discussion.
Thanks. Going to check this out. Very interested in this period.
-
Put in The Astonishing for the first time in about a year this weekend while sitting around waiting for the Porcupine Tree show to start. This album is pure musical genius. Gets better with age.
My post early in this thread stated I'd rate it my 4th favorite DT album. I have to move it up to 3 at this point. I usually don't care whether people like the same music as I do, but for whatever reason, I take the negative reception this album faced personally. It's not that far removed from Metropolis 2 stylistically--an album that gets an almost universally positive reaction from DT fans. If anything, the songwriting on this is more concise and melodic, and there's less meandering through aimless hyper-progressive jams, which have their place in DT's repertoire, of course, but I think they have a tendency to overdo them and have them in far too many songs just for the sake of having them, even if it doesn't fit from a songwriting perspective. This is a stunning and dynamic epic, with multiple layers, traversing multiple styles, but the melodic hooks are simple and easy to digest. Some specific highlights:
- I think Petrucci's outro solo in A New Beginning is possibly the best of his entire career. Helps that the underlying chord progression lays a fantastic foundation.
- The much-maligned second act actually finishes very strong. Losing Fayth through A New World is an incredibly epic and stunning finale, and Hymn of a Thousand Voices is one of the most beautiful snippets of music this band has ever written!
- I think this is Mangini's best album with the band, too. His style of drumming matches this style of music really well. There's a couple of fills in here that are absolutely astounding.
- David Campbell's orchestration is something to behold. It really gives this album sonic depth, even compared to other DT albums/songs that used orchestra.
This is DT at their creative peak, and 100 years from now, will be looked upon as their crowning achievement. Perhaps an album before its time. Or maybe after it's time. Since I really think the peak of rock music composition and listenership occurred during the 70s, when people's attention spans were not chewed up by a constant din of technological stimuli like social media and cell phones. Perhaps this album belongs in the era of The Who's Tommy, Yes's Tales of Topographic Oceans, Rush's 2112, or Genesis's Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I think it surpasses all four of those albums though, and stands on its own as one of the best concept albums ever written. This isn't an album that delivers instantly on first listen. Like a lot of good prog rock, it has to be digested with patience and discretion. And once it is, its melodic story really comes to life.
-
TA is still as inaccessible as ever. Their creative peak was 20 years ago with SDOIT. That will never matched.
-
Still my favorite DT album.
-
Put in The Astonishing for the first time in about a year this weekend while sitting around waiting for the Porcupine Tree show to start. This album is pure musical genius. Gets better with age.
My post early in this thread stated I'd rate it my 4th favorite DT album. I have to move it up to 3 at this point. I usually don't care whether people like the same music as I do, but for whatever reason, I take the negative reception this album faced personally. It's not that far removed from Metropolis 2 stylistically--an album that gets an almost universally positive reaction from DT fans. If anything, the songwriting on this is more concise and melodic, and there's less meandering through aimless hyper-progressive jams, which have their place in DT's repertoire, of course, but I think they have a tendency to overdo them and have them in far too many songs just for the sake of having them, even if it doesn't fit from a songwriting perspective. This is a stunning and dynamic epic, with multiple layers, traversing multiple styles, but the melodic hooks are simple and easy to digest. Some specific highlights:
- I think Petrucci's outro solo in A New Beginning is possibly the best of his entire career. Helps that the underlying chord progression lays a fantastic foundation.
- The much-maligned second act actually finishes very strong. Losing Fayth through A New World is an incredibly epic and stunning finale, and Hymn of a Thousand Voices is one of the most beautiful snippets of music this band has ever written!
- I think this is Mangini's best album with the band, too. His style of drumming matches this style of music really well. There's a couple of fills in here that are absolutely astounding.
- David Campbell's orchestration is something to behold. It really gives this album sonic depth, even compared to other DT albums/songs that used orchestra.
This is DT at their creative peak, and 100 years from now, will be looked upon as their crowning achievement. Perhaps an album before its time. Or maybe after it's time. Since I really think the peak of rock music composition and listenership occurred during the 70s, when people's attention spans were not chewed up by a constant din of technological stimuli like social media and cell phones. Perhaps this album belongs in the era of The Who's Tommy, Yes's Tales of Topographic Oceans, Rush's 2112, or Genesis's Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I think it surpasses all four of those albums though, and stands on its own as one of the best concept albums ever written. This isn't an album that delivers instantly on first listen. Like a lot of good prog rock, it has to be digested with patience and discretion. And once it is, its melodic story really comes to life.
Why?
Or, perhaps a better question is, does someone else's opinion change how you feel? If not, why get upset if others disagree with you (for the record, I have the opposite take on this album, but I enjoyed reading your post and it reminded me that I'd been meaning to revisit this album).
-
I love this album and just listened as part of my album ranking. (#5) I love it more each time. It has So Much great music! More than just soft and beautiful, JP has a ton of great guitar in it. And if anyone loves James (not sure) listening for just the purpose of hearing him sing is worth it. Managing all the characters - many in a single song a times - is done really well. I can tell who is who in a conversation of characters.
I love how there are different themes to go with different characters and how you hear them woven in and out of the music. And it really is climactic on the 2nd disc. If one really is following the story, when you get to Losing Faythe, it's heartbreaking. Then Hymn of a Thousand Voices caps off the idea that music is healing and we all play a part!
The whole idea of the album, that listening to too much noise and not enough goodness can corrupt. It's relevant.
-
Hymn of a Thousand Voices is one of the most beautiful snippets of music this band has ever written!
My Astonishing Abridged ends with Hymn.
-
TA is still as inaccessible as ever.
I completely disagree. The Astonishing is ABSOLUTELY "accessible"! It is definitely UNLISTENABLE but completely accessible! ;)
-
Great post jsbru.
-
Put in The Astonishing for the first time in about a year this weekend while sitting around waiting for the Porcupine Tree show to start. This album is pure musical genius. Gets better with age.
My post early in this thread stated I'd rate it my 4th favorite DT album. I have to move it up to 3 at this point. I usually don't care whether people like the same music as I do, but for whatever reason, I take the negative reception this album faced personally. It's not that far removed from Metropolis 2 stylistically--an album that gets an almost universally positive reaction from DT fans. If anything, the songwriting on this is more concise and melodic, and there's less meandering through aimless hyper-progressive jams, which have their place in DT's repertoire, of course, but I think they have a tendency to overdo them and have them in far too many songs just for the sake of having them, even if it doesn't fit from a songwriting perspective. This is a stunning and dynamic epic, with multiple layers, traversing multiple styles, but the melodic hooks are simple and easy to digest. Some specific highlights:
- I think Petrucci's outro solo in A New Beginning is possibly the best of his entire career. Helps that the underlying chord progression lays a fantastic foundation.
- The much-maligned second act actually finishes very strong. Losing Fayth through A New World is an incredibly epic and stunning finale, and Hymn of a Thousand Voices is one of the most beautiful snippets of music this band has ever written!
- I think this is Mangini's best album with the band, too. His style of drumming matches this style of music really well. There's a couple of fills in here that are absolutely astounding.
- David Campbell's orchestration is something to behold. It really gives this album sonic depth, even compared to other DT albums/songs that used orchestra.
This is DT at their creative peak, and 100 years from now, will be looked upon as their crowning achievement. Perhaps an album before its time. Or maybe after it's time. Since I really think the peak of rock music composition and listenership occurred during the 70s, when people's attention spans were not chewed up by a constant din of technological stimuli like social media and cell phones. Perhaps this album belongs in the era of The Who's Tommy, Yes's Tales of Topographic Oceans, Rush's 2112, or Genesis's Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I think it surpasses all four of those albums though, and stands on its own as one of the best concept albums ever written. This isn't an album that delivers instantly on first listen. Like a lot of good prog rock, it has to be digested with patience and discretion. And once it is, its melodic story really comes to life.
Absolutely no chance of this happening. Also, a ton of work went into TA but the idea isn't novel or newish at all. There isn't anything that breaks the mold on TA and this is kind of a pre-requite in order to be considered before its time.
It's a very ambitious piece of work no doubt. For me it was a horrific listening experience. I don't think most fans agree with me, but I think a lot of people did NOT like it because of the styles it emulated.
-
It's a very ambitious piece of work no doubt. For me it was a horrific listening experience. I don't think most fans agree with me, but I think a lot of people did NOT like it because of the styles it emulated.
Perhaps outside of this forum, my feeling is the majority of fans would actually agree with you.
I listened to it in full again a couple of days ago. Musically, it's soporific, and the story, being as hackneyed as it is, brings nothing. Story aside (which I accept is an absurd thing to say in the context), if it had been presented as an Ayreon-type piece of work with guest vocalists, it may have been redeemable. And that's not to say James is the issue because he really isn't.
-
Put in The Astonishing for the first time in about a year this weekend while sitting around waiting for the Porcupine Tree show to start. This album is pure musical genius. Gets better with age.
My post early in this thread stated I'd rate it my 4th favorite DT album. I have to move it up to 3 at this point. I usually don't care whether people like the same music as I do, but for whatever reason, I take the negative reception this album faced personally. It's not that far removed from Metropolis 2 stylistically--an album that gets an almost universally positive reaction from DT fans. If anything, the songwriting on this is more concise and melodic, and there's less meandering through aimless hyper-progressive jams, which have their place in DT's repertoire, of course, but I think they have a tendency to overdo them and have them in far too many songs just for the sake of having them, even if it doesn't fit from a songwriting perspective. This is a stunning and dynamic epic, with multiple layers, traversing multiple styles, but the melodic hooks are simple and easy to digest. Some specific highlights:
- I think Petrucci's outro solo in A New Beginning is possibly the best of his entire career. Helps that the underlying chord progression lays a fantastic foundation.
- The much-maligned second act actually finishes very strong. Losing Fayth through A New World is an incredibly epic and stunning finale, and Hymn of a Thousand Voices is one of the most beautiful snippets of music this band has ever written!
- I think this is Mangini's best album with the band, too. His style of drumming matches this style of music really well. There's a couple of fills in here that are absolutely astounding.
- David Campbell's orchestration is something to behold. It really gives this album sonic depth, even compared to other DT albums/songs that used orchestra.
This is DT at their creative peak, and 100 years from now, will be looked upon as their crowning achievement. Perhaps an album before its time. Or maybe after it's time. Since I really think the peak of rock music composition and listenership occurred during the 70s, when people's attention spans were not chewed up by a constant din of technological stimuli like social media and cell phones. Perhaps this album belongs in the era of The Who's Tommy, Yes's Tales of Topographic Oceans, Rush's 2112, or Genesis's Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I think it surpasses all four of those albums though, and stands on its own as one of the best concept albums ever written. This isn't an album that delivers instantly on first listen. Like a lot of good prog rock, it has to be digested with patience and discretion. And once it is, its melodic story really comes to life.
Why?
Or, perhaps a better question is, does someone else's opinion change how you feel? If not, why get upset if others disagree with you (for the record, I have the opposite take on this album, but I enjoyed reading your post and it reminded me that I'd been meaning to revisit this album).
That's the part I don't get either. What does someone else's opinion have to do with what you like? We need a lot less of that in our world, to be honest.
I have mixed emotions about The Astonishing. It's not as if DT forgot how to write or play. It's a stellar accomplishment, on a technical level. I don't care - at all - about the "styles"; they are a PROGRESSIVE rock band and I expect them to delve and dabble. I tolerated it when they did the blast beat and growl stuff which I don't care for, so I can tolerate a little Disney now and again. For me, it was simply the denseness of it; I could not get into the story and still to this day haven't. That's ok; there are plenty of records from bands I like that I just haven't connected with.
I think this is one of those records that really drives the point home that "just because I like it/don't like it" doesn't mean "it sucks/it is great".
-
TA is still as inaccessible as ever.
I completely disagree. The Astonishing is ABSOLUTELY "accessible"! It is definitely UNLISTENABLE but completely accessible! ;)
Well, those two things kind of intersect for me. There are a few "listenable" tracks (about 9 the last time I checked), but the album has too many tracks and as a whole, is just too long. That's what I meant by "inaccessible".
-
If I have to boil it down to three things that don't enable me to connect with it:
JLB's vocal approach. Maybe necessary for the overall scheme given all the characters but I just don't like it.
Almost every song has a 'grand finale' feel to it. Like they should all be the final song.
The story.
Huge respect though for the effort and time put into it. This is why I go back every six months and try again.
-
Put in The Astonishing for the first time in about a year this weekend while sitting around waiting for the Porcupine Tree show to start. This album is pure musical genius. Gets better with age.
My post early in this thread stated I'd rate it my 4th favorite DT album. I have to move it up to 3 at this point. I usually don't care whether people like the same music as I do, but for whatever reason, I take the negative reception this album faced personally. It's not that far removed from Metropolis 2 stylistically--an album that gets an almost universally positive reaction from DT fans. If anything, the songwriting on this is more concise and melodic, and there's less meandering through aimless hyper-progressive jams, which have their place in DT's repertoire, of course, but I think they have a tendency to overdo them and have them in far too many songs just for the sake of having them, even if it doesn't fit from a songwriting perspective. This is a stunning and dynamic epic, with multiple layers, traversing multiple styles, but the melodic hooks are simple and easy to digest. Some specific highlights:
- I think Petrucci's outro solo in A New Beginning is possibly the best of his entire career. Helps that the underlying chord progression lays a fantastic foundation.
- The much-maligned second act actually finishes very strong. Losing Fayth through A New World is an incredibly epic and stunning finale, and Hymn of a Thousand Voices is one of the most beautiful snippets of music this band has ever written!
- I think this is Mangini's best album with the band, too. His style of drumming matches this style of music really well. There's a couple of fills in here that are absolutely astounding.
- David Campbell's orchestration is something to behold. It really gives this album sonic depth, even compared to other DT albums/songs that used orchestra.
This is DT at their creative peak, and 100 years from now, will be looked upon as their crowning achievement. Perhaps an album before its time. Or maybe after it's time. Since I really think the peak of rock music composition and listenership occurred during the 70s, when people's attention spans were not chewed up by a constant din of technological stimuli like social media and cell phones. Perhaps this album belongs in the era of The Who's Tommy, Yes's Tales of Topographic Oceans, Rush's 2112, or Genesis's Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I think it surpasses all four of those albums though, and stands on its own as one of the best concept albums ever written. This isn't an album that delivers instantly on first listen. Like a lot of good prog rock, it has to be digested with patience and discretion. And once it is, its melodic story really comes to life.
Why?
Or, perhaps a better question is, does someone else's opinion change how you feel? If not, why get upset if others disagree with you (for the record, I have the opposite take on this album, but I enjoyed reading your post and it reminded me that I'd been meaning to revisit this album).
That's the part I don't get either. What does someone else's opinion have to do with what you like? We need a lot less of that in our world, to be honest.
I have mixed emotions about The Astonishing. It's not as if DT forgot how to write or play. It's a stellar accomplishment, on a technical level. I don't care - at all - about the "styles"; they are a PROGRESSIVE rock band and I expect them to delve and dabble. I tolerated it when they did the blast beat and growl stuff which I don't care for, so I can tolerate a little Disney now and again. For me, it was simply the denseness of it; I could not get into the story and still to this day haven't. That's ok; there are plenty of records from bands I like that I just haven't connected with.
I think this is one of those records that really drives the point home that "just because I like it/don't like it" doesn't mean "it sucks/it is great".
It is pretty dense. That is one thing I like about it though, and why I view it as a musical movie. I view Ayreon albums the same exact way. When I listen to Transitus, I imagine I am sitting in front of an old time radio (before the invention of television) listening to the horror story of the night.
The Astonishing is interesting the more I think about it. I personally think it would work better branded as a solo venture, or a side project to release it under, rather than under the Dream Theater brand. I think it works best live, and the way the band did it was amazing for the budget they had to put into the production. I am also sure JP has bigger dreams for how he wanted to present it live. This is one reason I would love to see it as an actual broadway or Opera style production. This story calls for that sort of production, it needs the characters on stage to sing and play their emotions through the music.
-
Put in The Astonishing for the first time in about a year this weekend while sitting around waiting for the Porcupine Tree show to start. This album is pure musical genius. Gets better with age.
My post early in this thread stated I'd rate it my 4th favorite DT album. I have to move it up to 3 at this point. I usually don't care whether people like the same music as I do, but for whatever reason, I take the negative reception this album faced personally. It's not that far removed from Metropolis 2 stylistically--an album that gets an almost universally positive reaction from DT fans. If anything, the songwriting on this is more concise and melodic, and there's less meandering through aimless hyper-progressive jams, which have their place in DT's repertoire, of course, but I think they have a tendency to overdo them and have them in far too many songs just for the sake of having them, even if it doesn't fit from a songwriting perspective. This is a stunning and dynamic epic, with multiple layers, traversing multiple styles, but the melodic hooks are simple and easy to digest. Some specific highlights:
- I think Petrucci's outro solo in A New Beginning is possibly the best of his entire career. Helps that the underlying chord progression lays a fantastic foundation.
- The much-maligned second act actually finishes very strong. Losing Fayth through A New World is an incredibly epic and stunning finale, and Hymn of a Thousand Voices is one of the most beautiful snippets of music this band has ever written!
- I think this is Mangini's best album with the band, too. His style of drumming matches this style of music really well. There's a couple of fills in here that are absolutely astounding.
- David Campbell's orchestration is something to behold. It really gives this album sonic depth, even compared to other DT albums/songs that used orchestra.
This is DT at their creative peak, and 100 years from now, will be looked upon as their crowning achievement. Perhaps an album before its time. Or maybe after it's time. Since I really think the peak of rock music composition and listenership occurred during the 70s, when people's attention spans were not chewed up by a constant din of technological stimuli like social media and cell phones. Perhaps this album belongs in the era of The Who's Tommy, Yes's Tales of Topographic Oceans, Rush's 2112, or Genesis's Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I think it surpasses all four of those albums though, and stands on its own as one of the best concept albums ever written. This isn't an album that delivers instantly on first listen. Like a lot of good prog rock, it has to be digested with patience and discretion. And once it is, its melodic story really comes to life.
Absolutely no chance of this happening. Also, a ton of work went into TA but the idea isn't novel or newish at all. There isn't anything that breaks the mold on TA and this is kind of a pre-requite in order to be considered before its time.
It's a very ambitious piece of work no doubt. For me it was a horrific listening experience. I don't think most fans agree with me, but I think a lot of people did NOT like it because of the styles it emulated.
Just true. I don't think we will hear any songs of that album again live. From time to time I go back to it and listen and try to dig it. It does not work for me. A shorter album might have been more consistent on the quality of the music thus more interesting. That's the only album from them I don't like.
-
We will definitely hear songs from The Astonishing live in the future. There's no way DT is going to pretend that album doesn't exist.
-
We will definitely hear songs from The Astonishing live in the future. There's no way DT is going to pretend that album doesn't exist.
I find it hard to believe the album will be ignored, but they dropped those couple songs early the next tour and NOTHING has come back. To me, that is Astonishing from DT.
Also, to me, it's sad. The album is pretty good for my ears, but being so long and with most of the tracks not being stand outs on their own (usually best to listen to groupings of songs) it's very easy to see why people don't like it. Even with me liking it, I don't think I've listened for years now. There's just no reason to go back if you aren't going to listen to the whole thing and that's just very time consuming.
I'm still just annoyed they didn't let fans take video of this tour. There's just very limited options to seeing these songs live on youtube now. The band really needed to either let go of stopping fans or released their own live recording. It's a shame IMO.
-
We will definitely hear songs from The Astonishing live in the future. There's no way DT is going to pretend that album doesn't exist.
I find it hard to believe the album will be ignored, but they dropped those couple songs early the next tour and NOTHING has come back. To me, that is Astonishing from DT.
Also, to me, it's sad. The album is pretty good for my ears, but being so long and with most of the tracks not being stand outs on their own (usually best to listen to groupings of songs) it's very easy to see why people don't like it. Even with me liking it, I don't think I've listened for years now. There's just no reason to go back if you aren't going to listen to the whole thing and that's just very time consuming.
I'm still just annoyed they didn't let fans take video of this tour. There's just very limited options to seeing these songs live on youtube now. The band really needed to either let go of stopping fans or released their own live recording. It's a shame IMO.
They also dropped To Live Forever and Don't Look Past Me, and let's not forget they dropped The Great Debate as well during their first tour back. I wouldn't read into songs being dropped. If so, I'd blame the fans for not reacting the way the band expected to those songs so they decided to drop them. For myself, the band can play whatever the hell they want, even if it's a set with all their least fan favorite songs including, You Not Me and Raw Dog. I'd still go to that show, while I am sure many would not because the set isn't great, and then you wonder why the venue isn't sold well. :\
I don't know, but I can listen to the songs without needing to listen to the album in full. I can put on The X Aspect and still enjoy the song. What ends up happening when I do play a single track from The Astonishing is I tend to want to listen to more songs from that album. :biggrin:
It's not a shame they didn't let people record. It makes those shows more special, and it's not the bands fault. To me, this shows a lot about the fans entitlements and regrets.
If a band wants to make a show special and wants to keep it that way for the fans who did attend the shows, then why not keep people from recording and posting videos online? Just so entitled fans can bitch about the recording not sounding good, thinking thats how everything exactly sounded at that venue. Recordings can create some certain tonal changes and can make singers sound off-pitch.
The only way to get an actual live replica is to get the soundboard recordings.
I actually like what Tesla did one time, they offered up a Live cd of their show that night. You paid when you got to the venue, and if I remember correctly, you showed them your receipt before Def Leppard came on, which was after Scorpions, and then you got a CD-R of the show that night in a nicely designed digipak with album art (it wasn't anything intricate just black with the band logo and the title Live, Loud, and Proud). No mastering or mixing done whatsoever, just a straight up soundboard recording of the live show.
I have no idea if people bought the cds, but I did and I still listen to it quite a lot.
But as was also stated by Boskman...It was intended to be recorded, but then the whole booking snafu happened and the venue they probably had in mind maybe wasn't booked as well.
I find it fascinating how people now get upset if a band doesn't have live videos up on YouTube. I can't find hardly shit anything for God Forbid, but I am not upset, I find it fascinating that not many recorded their live shows. It's also funny how many people record the shows compared to how many actually get uploaded into YouTube, and if it's even easily possible to find the video without having to include the tags, because I am not scrolling through all those unrelated videos just to find the one in the depths of YouTube videos.
-
We will definitely hear songs from The Astonishing live in the future. There's no way DT is going to pretend that album doesn't exist.
I am not counting on it. They seem to have no problem ignoring songs from newer albums nowadays (1 from the self-titled and 3 from both Distance over Time and A View... all have still never been played), and they used to be a band that played everything at one point or another, even if something only got played a few times (see: You Not Me). Granted, that was when they had less songs and albums, but with their dependency on static set lists now, it is just hard to cover too much nowadays, and they have to know by now that a lot of the fanbase wasn't wild about TA, so it will be easy for them to put it aside and just pick songs from their many other albums going forward. It sucks, but it is what it is.
-
Just so entitled fans can bitch about the recording not sounding good, thinking thats how everything exactly sounded at that venue. Recordings can create some certain tonal changes and can make singers sound off-pitch.
You know they're digital recordings rather than C90s in Walkmans these days, right? :lol
-
Just because DT hasn't yet played certain songs from DT12, DOT, and AVFTTOTW doesn't mean they won't. I believe it will all happen in due time.
-
Just because DT hasn't yet played certain songs from DT12, DOT, and AVFTTOTW doesn't mean they won't. I believe it will all happen in due time.
With the way people are talking about JLBs vocals and playing songs suitable to his voice. Those songs not played are pretty vocally demanding. So if they did get their way, none of these songs would be played. Especially S2N and Answering The Call. :corn
-
Put in The Astonishing for the first time in about a year this weekend while sitting around waiting for the Porcupine Tree show to start. This album is pure musical genius. Gets better with age.
My post early in this thread stated I'd rate it my 4th favorite DT album. I have to move it up to 3 at this point. I usually don't care whether people like the same music as I do, but for whatever reason, I take the negative reception this album faced personally. It's not that far removed from Metropolis 2 stylistically--an album that gets an almost universally positive reaction from DT fans. If anything, the songwriting on this is more concise and melodic, and there's less meandering through aimless hyper-progressive jams, which have their place in DT's repertoire, of course, but I think they have a tendency to overdo them and have them in far too many songs just for the sake of having them, even if it doesn't fit from a songwriting perspective. This is a stunning and dynamic epic, with multiple layers, traversing multiple styles, but the melodic hooks are simple and easy to digest. Some specific highlights:
- I think Petrucci's outro solo in A New Beginning is possibly the best of his entire career. Helps that the underlying chord progression lays a fantastic foundation.
- The much-maligned second act actually finishes very strong. Losing Fayth through A New World is an incredibly epic and stunning finale, and Hymn of a Thousand Voices is one of the most beautiful snippets of music this band has ever written!
- I think this is Mangini's best album with the band, too. His style of drumming matches this style of music really well. There's a couple of fills in here that are absolutely astounding.
- David Campbell's orchestration is something to behold. It really gives this album sonic depth, even compared to other DT albums/songs that used orchestra.
This is DT at their creative peak, and 100 years from now, will be looked upon as their crowning achievement. Perhaps an album before its time. Or maybe after it's time. Since I really think the peak of rock music composition and listenership occurred during the 70s, when people's attention spans were not chewed up by a constant din of technological stimuli like social media and cell phones. Perhaps this album belongs in the era of The Who's Tommy, Yes's Tales of Topographic Oceans, Rush's 2112, or Genesis's Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I think it surpasses all four of those albums though, and stands on its own as one of the best concept albums ever written. This isn't an album that delivers instantly on first listen. Like a lot of good prog rock, it has to be digested with patience and discretion. And once it is, its melodic story really comes to life.
Why?
Or, perhaps a better question is, does someone else's opinion change how you feel? If not, why get upset if others disagree with you (for the record, I have the opposite take on this album, but I enjoyed reading your post and it reminded me that I'd been meaning to revisit this album).
Well, preceding the part you highlighted, I made the point of saying that I don't normally feel this way. So it's rare. This album is really the only one I feel that way about, to be honest.
I just don't see what's so different about this album and some of their earlier, less heavy work, especially from I&W and Metropolis 2. I mean, if you think the sound is too "Disney" or too melody-focused, why don't people hate songs like Another Day, Surrounded, The Spirit Carries On, and Finally Free? There's also corny sound effects in Metropolis 2. Also, who cares about the story? The story in 2112 is at least as bad, and that album gets almost universal praise from prog fans. Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is arguably worse. Operation Mindcrime? Totally flaky story, but amazing music. Tales of Topographic Oceans is about a footnote in some Buddhist text, for chrissakes, although to be fair, there are a lot of people that also shit on that album. But you listen to prog concept albums for the music, not for the storytelling.
Nothing on this album is super different than anything they've done before, aside from the scope--but big scope is something I would expect prog rock fans, more than anyone else, would understand and connect with.
Oh well. I think what makes me mad is the fact that this was exactly what I wanted the band to do--take a big risk with something different, and also go in a less heavy and more proggy direction, which is what I fell makes I&W one of their most popular albums. But then a faction of longtime fans didn't just not like it, they felt the need to viscerally trash it in a way that was disrespectful to the band's creative genius and all the work that went into it. It seemed pretty bratty to me, I suppose.
-
I have no problem with The Astonishing being criticized, even though I personally think very positively of it. What did make me roll my eyes a bit was when the people who were criticizing the band for being predictable and not taking risks were the same people who were banging on The Astonishing the hardest. You simply can't win with some people, which I think is intentional at times. :lol
-
Also, who cares about the story? The story in 2112 is at least as bad, and that album gets almost universal praise from prog fans. Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is arguably worse. Operation Mindcrime? Totally flaky story, but amazing music. Tales of Topographic Oceans is about a footnote in some Buddhist text, for chrissakes, although to be fair, there are a lot of people that also shit on that album. But you listen to prog concept albums for the music, not for the storytelling.
This. The lyrics in TA are quite cheesy at times but the whole composition, arrangement and recording are pure gold. Sure, it's not the best concept album ever witnessed by humankind, but it does get a lot on unnecessary hate among DT fans, which leads us to...
What did make me roll my eyes a bit was when the people who were criticizing the band for being predictable and not taking risks were the same people who were banging on The Astonishing the hardest. You simply can't win with some people, which I think is intentional at times. :lol
And because reception for TA was mixed at best, they're now back at "playing it safe" for what could be the rest of their career. Not that I'm complaining, I love those albums, specially the latest :metal, but I just don't think they'll have another huge venture into uncharted waters any time soon.
-
Put in The Astonishing for the first time in about a year this weekend while sitting around waiting for the Porcupine Tree show to start. This album is pure musical genius. Gets better with age.
My post early in this thread stated I'd rate it my 4th favorite DT album. I have to move it up to 3 at this point. I usually don't care whether people like the same music as I do, but for whatever reason, I take the negative reception this album faced personally. It's not that far removed from Metropolis 2 stylistically--an album that gets an almost universally positive reaction from DT fans. If anything, the songwriting on this is more concise and melodic, and there's less meandering through aimless hyper-progressive jams, which have their place in DT's repertoire, of course, but I think they have a tendency to overdo them and have them in far too many songs just for the sake of having them, even if it doesn't fit from a songwriting perspective. This is a stunning and dynamic epic, with multiple layers, traversing multiple styles, but the melodic hooks are simple and easy to digest. Some specific highlights:
- I think Petrucci's outro solo in A New Beginning is possibly the best of his entire career. Helps that the underlying chord progression lays a fantastic foundation.
- The much-maligned second act actually finishes very strong. Losing Fayth through A New World is an incredibly epic and stunning finale, and Hymn of a Thousand Voices is one of the most beautiful snippets of music this band has ever written!
- I think this is Mangini's best album with the band, too. His style of drumming matches this style of music really well. There's a couple of fills in here that are absolutely astounding.
- David Campbell's orchestration is something to behold. It really gives this album sonic depth, even compared to other DT albums/songs that used orchestra.
This is DT at their creative peak, and 100 years from now, will be looked upon as their crowning achievement. Perhaps an album before its time. Or maybe after it's time. Since I really think the peak of rock music composition and listenership occurred during the 70s, when people's attention spans were not chewed up by a constant din of technological stimuli like social media and cell phones. Perhaps this album belongs in the era of The Who's Tommy, Yes's Tales of Topographic Oceans, Rush's 2112, or Genesis's Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I think it surpasses all four of those albums though, and stands on its own as one of the best concept albums ever written. This isn't an album that delivers instantly on first listen. Like a lot of good prog rock, it has to be digested with patience and discretion. And once it is, its melodic story really comes to life.
Why?
Or, perhaps a better question is, does someone else's opinion change how you feel? If not, why get upset if others disagree with you (for the record, I have the opposite take on this album, but I enjoyed reading your post and it reminded me that I'd been meaning to revisit this album).
Well, preceding the part you highlighted, I made the point of saying that I don't normally feel this way. So it's rare. This album is really the only one I feel that way about, to be honest.
I just don't see what's so different about this album and some of their earlier, less heavy work, especially from I&W and Metropolis 2. I mean, if you think the sound is too "Disney" or too melody-focused, why don't people hate songs like Another Day, Surrounded, The Spirit Carries On, and Finally Free? There's also corny sound effects in Metropolis 2. Also, who cares about the story? The story in 2112 is at least as bad, and that album gets almost universal praise from prog fans. Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is arguably worse. Operation Mindcrime? Totally flaky story, but amazing music. Tales of Topographic Oceans is about a footnote in some Buddhist text, for chrissakes, although to be fair, there are a lot of people that also shit on that album. But you listen to prog concept albums for the music, not for the storytelling.
Nothing on this album is super different than anything they've done before, aside from the scope--but big scope is something I would expect prog rock fans, more than anyone else, would understand and connect with.
Oh well. I think what makes me mad is the fact that this was exactly what I wanted the band to do--take a big risk with something different, and also go in a less heavy and more proggy direction, which is what I fell makes I&W one of their most popular albums. But then a faction of longtime fans didn't just not like it, they felt the need to viscerally trash it in a way that was disrespectful to the band's creative genius and all the work that went into it. It seemed pretty bratty to me, I suppose.
But then a faction of longtime fans didn't just not like it, they felt the need to viscerally trash it in a way that was disrespectful to the band's creative genius and all the work that went into it.
Who did this? That's a pretty sweeping generalization if you ask me.
"I think what makes me mad ....."
But why would you let something like the reaction to a record "make you mad?"
Listen, let me preface what I'm about to say with the following: I wasn't looking to pick a fight or call you out, and if my post came across that way then I apologize. My original question was born of sincere curiosity.
I literally know nothing about you, so what I'm about to say isn't to target you. That said, if someone truly gets upset/mad/annoyed with the reactions of others, I worry about them.
Perhaps it's generational, perhaps it's a sign of the times, but I've seen this with my own son: we, as a society, invest way to much time and energy in the perceived opinions of others.
So, without judgement or 'brattiness' or whatever else someone might perceive, I will say this: I think The Astonishing was a massive letdown. That is my opinion, and if it upsets someone else to read it, then so be it.
Others love the record, and as a fan of Dream Theater, it pleases me that there's a portion of their fanbase enjoying The Astonishing–I wish I was among them, but I am not.
Alright, I've said my peace and I try my best to avoid repeating myself: carry on!
-
Its more that there are people who use some pretty harsh word choices to express their opinion of it.
To me, this is one of the most beautiful, heart-warming, albums the band has done. I am one that does enjoy the story. I am also one who not only listens to the music, but I can enjoy the story for what it is. I don't need fancy, descriptive words. I do not mind a narrative that is straight forward. There's also so much you can do when creating a world with music, first off there's only so much words you can use to paint the picture, the music is utilized to paint that picture with the emotions music can convey.
-
I think it would be cool if they released a revamped version of The Astonishing with the gift of hindsight. I don't think they will, but it would be interesting to say the least.
-
While there are definitely songs I skip when I revisit this album, I generally love a good portion of it. I caught their live presentation in CT with my son and we both had a great time. That memory definitely factors into my enjoyment when I do spin it.
-
I re-listened to the first disc today. It's a lot for one sitting and there are a few songs I skip, but overall, I just really love this album. Dream Theater do cinematic, epic, orchestral music really well.
-
Chosen just came on my random music library shuffle, first time I heard it in a long time, and I forgot just how good that ballad is. The JP solo is :hefdaddy They really should throw this song into the live set for their ballad slow down part of the show.
-
Not my favorite of their ballads, but I agree it should be played more often, and I specially agree about that solo :tup
No need to overplay TSCO when this one exists.
-
I agree that Chosen should be a regular part of their setlist rotation. I prefer it over TSCO, and that's saying lot.
-
I have no problem with The Astonishing being criticized, even though I personally think very positively of it. What did make me roll my eyes a bit was when the people who were criticizing the band for being predictable and not taking risks were the same people who were banging on The Astonishing the hardest. You simply can't win with some people, which I think is intentional at times. :lol
There's a right way to take risks and a wrong way. I am sure you wouldn't like it if DT16 turned out to be a reggae album.
The criticism was generally more about the specific direction of the Astonishing. They could have taken 'risks' in a billion other ways considering the genre they live in.
The band has gotten a little formulaic in some ways. I am sure it is very easy for them to change a few things around on the next album and keep things fresh, if they so choose. How about a bass solo for once after 16 albums? It's so predictable that the guitar and keys take all the solos, sometimes in the same order. That's just one small example off the top of my head. TA just went to far out to left field. It's one thing for DT to make an album that sounds like Planet X and another for them to make an album that sounds like Disney.
-
When did Dream Theater make an album that sounded like Disney?
Please note that answering "The Astonishing" is incorrect.
-
When did Dream Theater make an album that sounded like Disney?
Please note that answering "The Astonishing" is incorrect.
Correct. It was the Six Degrees Overture.
-
I must reiterate. Why is Disney being used in a way to express criticism? Disney has had some pretty dang good songs in their soundtracks in their movies over their history.
-
I must reiterate. Why is Disney being used in a way to express criticism? Disney has had some pretty dang good songs in their soundtracks in their movies over their history.
My thoughts exactly.
-
I must reiterate. Why is Disney being used in a way to express criticism? Disney has had some pretty dang good songs in their soundtracks in their movies over their history.
Yes, Disney does have amazing songs. And some are even better when they're arranged as a metal song. Such as Jonathan Young's cover of The Bells of Notre Dame. He amplified that song to top tier quality because I feel that song, and also Hellfire, work extremely well in that metal style.
My favorite Disney soundtrack is Anastasia, I even bought the cd for it online. I've been pondering before, In The Dark of The Night would sound amazing as a metal song, so I searched YouTube for Metal covers, and this was how I discovered Jonathan Young.
I think it's funny though because the opposite is how I feel about The Astonishing. I wouldnt mind hearing a lot of these songs with different vocalists, mainly a female vocalist to sing Faythes parts. The iliminal (not capitalized because the "i" looks like an "L") cover of Act of Faythe with the female vocalist is the closest thing out there to what I hear in my head for the type of vocals I can hear for Faythe.
-
I have no problem with The Astonishing being criticized, even though I personally think very positively of it. What did make me roll my eyes a bit was when the people who were criticizing the band for being predictable and not taking risks were the same people who were banging on The Astonishing the hardest. You simply can't win with some people, which I think is intentional at times. :lol
There's a right way to take risks and a wrong way. I am sure you wouldn't like it if DT16 turned out to be a reggae album.
I actually wouldn't mind that at all. I think it would be neat, and they have done Reggae before with that part inserted into Learning to Live. I actually think it would be neat to hear a Progressive Reggae song.
The reason I don't mind is because first and foremost I enjoy music, regardless of genre. To me music is music and there's lots of fascinating music out there, such as the music of the birds, the music of the trees, and the music of the sea. Music to me just can't be grouped into a single category, music should be allowed to venture and explore the vastness of sounds these vibrations can make.
You are missing out on so much awesome music by limiting yourself to just one style of music.
-
I must reiterate. Why is Disney being used in a way to express criticism? Disney has had some pretty dang good songs in their soundtracks in their movies over their history.
I thoroughly enjoy my Disney+ subscription. The people who wrote music for Disney are extremely talented. The comparison itself isn't really a knock on Disney. Some musicians out there do this exceptionally well and have a ton of experience writing in this style and then picking the personnel to execute it.
I guess it's more a matter of expectations and execution. At the end of the day, I don't think DT can dip into this style very well. They don't have the personnel or songwriting experience for it. That's all I meant. I was trying to say the same thing with the Reggae comment. All musicians have their tendencies, strengths and weaknesses and DT are no different. When it comes to Prog Metal, they are the kings. It doesn't mean they can play everything and I think TA is an example of that. There is so much deadspace on the TA, where it's just keys and vocal. I don't find it particularly good. It really takes a lot to do a great Disney or Broadway inspired album. It's not likely that these 50 year olds who have been eating, breathing and sleeping prog and metal for 30 years are just going to pick up a pen and paper and successfully incorporate this foreign genre into the next DT album-- although they do incorporate Rush's style pretty damn well.
It works the other way too. The guys and gals who wrote and sang Hunchback and Frozen totally killed it but similarly, would they make a great prog metal Disney movie? I highly doubt this forum would rush out to buy it.
-
I must reiterate. Why is Disney being used in a way to express criticism? Disney has had some pretty dang good songs in their soundtracks in their movies over their history.
I thoroughly enjoy my Disney+ subscription. The people who wrote music for Disney are extremely talented. The comparison itself isn't really a knock on Disney. Some musicians out there do this exceptionally well and have a ton of experience writing in this style and then picking the personnel to execute it.
I guess it's more a matter of expectations and execution. At the end of the day, I don't think DT can dip into this style very well. They don't have the personnel or songwriting experience for it. That's all I meant. I was trying to say the same thing with the Reggae comment. All musicians have their tendencies, strengths and weaknesses and DT are no different. When it comes to Prog Metal, they are the kings. It doesn't mean they can play everything and I think TA is an example of that. There is so much deadspace on the TA, where it's just keys and vocal. I don't find it particularly good. It really takes a lot to do a great Disney or Broadway inspired album. It's not likely that these 50 year olds who have been eating, breathing and sleeping prog and metal for 30 years are just going to pick up a pen and paper and successfully incorporate this foreign genre into the next DT album-- although they do incorporate Rush's style pretty damn well.
It works the other way too. The guys and gals who wrote and sang Hunchback and Frozen totally killed it but similarly, would they make a great prog metal Disney movie? I highly doubt this forum would rush out to buy it.
Exactly, they're 5 guys who create music and perform it. They're not composers who look for, and work with, other people to perform their musical compositions, which is what the Disney music composers do.
MY issue is that I would have preferred this as a full on production. But I also understand why that wasn't going to happen and we got what we got. I can accept The Astonishing for what it is because it was the best thing it could've been. It takes a lot of focus to actually make these big dream concepts into reality, and JP does not have the time, or more so the opportunity, to focus on this project. I am one that thinks they executed this to the best of their abilities, and am glad they decided to incorporate other aspects as well such as the backstory on their website, the deluxe boxset, and the book.
I knew my expectations were never going to be met, but I can also sit and listen to the album and visualize it all playing out on the stage. What I would love to be able to witness one day is a performance with a full cast. For me, this would've been heightened by adding in other vocalists to play the characters, while keeping JLB as the Narrator. It makes sense to me to have JLB as the narrator, because it's like the band is telling the story. It's another reason why I felt it would've been best to release this under a weird ass moniker of..."John Petrucci presents The Astonishing as performed by Dream Theater". But why when "Dream Theater presents The Astonishing" is just as good, and this is what we got.
-
I don't think DT can dip into this style very well.
Well, except for the fact that they did, and it was pretty amazing.
It really takes a lot to do a great Disney or Broadway inspired album. It's not likely that these 50 year olds who have been eating, breathing and sleeping prog and metal for 30 years are just going to pick up a pen and paper and successfully incorporate this foreign genre into the next DT album
Well, except for the fact that they did, and it was pretty amazing.
-
I have no problem with The Astonishing being criticized, even though I personally think very positively of it. What did make me roll my eyes a bit was when the people who were criticizing the band for being predictable and not taking risks were the same people who were banging on The Astonishing the hardest. You simply can't win with some people, which I think is intentional at times. :lol
There's a right way to take risks and a wrong way. I am sure you wouldn't like it if DT16 turned out to be a reggae album.
I actually wouldn't mind that at all. I think it would be neat, and they have done Reggae before with that part inserted into Learning to Live. I actually think it would be neat to hear a Progressive Reggae song.
The reason I don't mind is because first and foremost I enjoy music, regardless of genre. To me music is music and there's lots of fascinating music out there, such as the music of the birds, the music of the trees, and the music of the sea. Music to me just can't be grouped into a single category, music should be allowed to venture and explore the vastness of sounds these vibrations can make.
You are missing out on so much awesome music by limiting yourself to just one style of music.
I'd love it if they could manage a reggae song much less a whole album. I'll take what I can get. At this point there should be no boundaries but they obviously feel differently.
-
The Astonishing is 7 years old in a couple of weeks.
Wtf?
-
I will never forget the absolute trill of the first week of spinning the album. It stayed in regular rotation for about a month or two, and I even remember returning to it quite often during the summer of 2016. What a fantastic album.
-
This is a weird album for me. When I put it on, I enjoy it. Albeit rarely in its entirety. There are no songs that I would rank up there in my top, whatever, of DT songs. But I like every song. I can’t rank it high, because I don’t like it more than my faves. But if I rank it low, it seems wrong because I don’t thinks it’s bad. There are DT albums with bad songs. This isn’t one. So I don’t even know where I stand with it.
-
I find that the MM era albums are so good, it's very hard to rank them against my favorites from previous lineups. I want to have 10 albums in my top 5 :rollin
-
You know, I hate this album but I think I only actually listened to it like......twice? Do I dare?
-
Go into it with an open mind. You might hate it again, but also, it might just slightly improve. :tup
Try to focus on the eccentric vocals and the beautiful musical themes, especially the piano passages. That's where the gold of the album is in my opinion, but there's a lot of it to love.
-
Go into it with an open mind. You might hate it again, but also, it might just slightly improve. :tup
Try to focus on the eccentric vocals and the beautiful musical themes, especially the piano passages. That's where the gold of the album is in my opinion, but there's a lot of it to love.
Hmmm....sounds like a lot of work.
-
That's why you might still hate it. :lol
-
As I mentioned in my last post, there are no songs I think of as drop-dead classics. I would say these are my faves; The Gift of Music, When Your Time Has Come, Chosen, A Life Left Behind, Moment of Betrayal, Begin Again, and Our New World.
Do any of you considerate some tracks from this album as a “top 10” or “top 20” song?
-
As I mentioned in my last post, there are no songs I think of as drop-dead classics. I would say these are my faves; The Gift of Music, When Your Time Has Come, Chosen, A Life Left Behind, Moment of Betrayal, Begin Again, and Our New World.
Do any of you considerate some tracks from this album as a “top 10” or “top 20” song?
I think you hit the nail on the head. There are no drop dead classics, though songs like Gift of Music are very good.
-
Even though most of the songs are great on their own, the strength of the album isn't in its indivitual songs. It's about the whole thing. It's like asking if any of the songs that SDOIT is comprised of would make my top twenty.
-
As I mentioned in my last post, there are no songs I think of as drop-dead classics. I would say these are my faves; The Gift of Music, When Your Time Has Come, Chosen, A Life Left Behind, Moment of Betrayal, Begin Again, and Our New World.
Do any of you considerate some tracks from this album as a “top 10” or “top 20” song?
Chosen and Losing Faythe. Chosen is in my top 5, while Losing Faythe is in the top 20.
-
Even though most of the songs are great on their own, the strength of the album isn't in its indivitual songs. It's about the whole thing. It's like asking if any of the songs that SDOIT is comprised of would make my top twenty.
I agree with you up until thank you up until SDOIT. I would put one or two parts of that in my top ten. But I know what you mean.
-
Even though most of the songs are great on their own, the strength of the album isn't in its indivitual songs. It's about the whole thing. It's like asking if any of the songs that SDOIT is comprised of would make my top twenty.
I view Operas as what movies were before the invention of film, same as a play. And therefore, I have favorite scenes/acts.
-
Moment of Betrayal is a kickass song. I'd love to hear it grace one of our setlists in the near future.
That said, my favorite single moment in the whole Astonishing is My Last Farwell. James absolutely nailed the emotional range here. It never fails, right at 1:45 ("Don't leave me now") to 2:13 ("All your life, you have walked alone, Now I am your hope, so take my hand.." ), this usually stoic girl is choked up with sobs.
-
Moment of Betrayal is a kickass song. I'd love to hear it grace one of our setlists in the near future.
That said, my favorite single moment in the whole Astonishing is My Last Farwell. James absolutely nailed the emotional range here. It never fails, right at 1:45 ("Don't leave me now") to 2:13 ("All your life, you have walked alone, Now I am your hope, so take my hand.." ), this usually stoic girl is choked up with sobs.
I'm with you on MLF. :metal
This is my go to song when I rarely get to introduce people to DT.
-
Interesting to let My Last Farewell be a mans intro to Dream Theater.
One of my favorite moments on The Astonishing is the intro of A Savior In the Square. Is has that The Killing Hand-perfection on it that moves me each time I hear it. I might have listen to the whole conceptalbum at least twenty times, my vinyl has a regular spin, but still... still it's hard for me to place it in their discography.
I am reading the novell again, that helps the story being brought to life for sure. I even 've seen the whole freaking Breaking the Absolutes from Peter Orrulian on Youtube, a 7-hour gide through. So this album is pretty time-consuming and I love it.
-
One of my favorite moments on The Astonishing is the intro of A Savior In the Square. Is has that The Killing Hand-perfection on it that moves me each time I hear it.
That is a beautiful piece of music for sure! I love the last change in the chord phrasing before it goes back to the section where the lead guitar comes in. That is pure bliss!
-
Thread title corrected for accuracy.
-
Actually as of Jan 29, it's 7 years.
-
Thread title corrected for accuracy.
-
I'm sure this has been said before, but the whole concept of this album is like Game of Thrones meets 2112.
-
Moreso Romeo and Juliet meets 2112.
-
Moreso Romeo and Juliet meets 2112.
and including Jesus Christ The Criminal :D (seriously though, I did spot some references to that musical as well, as well as Les Miserables (Brother Can You Hear Me especially) and some more references to ALW musicals (some obvious, some less so) I still like it, far more so than Met2 even, concerning the execution anyway.
-
Well, decided to bump this thread as Ross Jennings of Haken had some thoughts about the Astonishing in a Loudwire article where musicians talks about bands' 13th album. Here's what he had to say. I do agree on what could have been if they decided to collaborate with other vocalists ala Ayreon and see how that turned out rather than have JLB handle all of the vocals. Maybe it could have been better with him having to play off other vocalists for this kind of album.
I have huge admiration for Dream Theater’s 13th album, The Astonishing not least for it’s hugely ambitious nature of fusing music, theater and science fiction literature, but indeed by inviting the listener into a whole universe of multimedia in order to consume their story, it is suddenly so much more than your average rock ’n’ roll concept album.
As someone who also writes music and lyrics through a very visual perspective, I truly appreciated the layers that were packed into forming the concept, and anyone who cared to explore this world in details that transcend the music and lyrics were truly rewarded.
After all, The Astonishing is a difficult record to appreciate casually, and while it’s not devoid of many signature Dream Theater musical traits, and contains a handful of really strong stand alone singles, it is, and must be approached as, a fully fledged piece of musical theater that demands the listener's time, effort and close attention. I always appreciate the record more with this in mind.
“People just don’t have the time for music any more” was the ultimate statement here about how music is consumed in a modern age and with an album as involved and epic as The Astonishing, I feel it proved its own case in point.
I’ve always wondered if The Astonishing may have polarized the hardcore fanbase less had this been approached as a more collaborative project a la Ayreon or even if the focus had been steered more toward an elaborate stage production with a variety of actors, singers, props and pyro? Having said this, James LaBrie gets a special mention from me for his truly admirable performance and portrayal of various characters.
And as for the legacy this album will leave, I guess time will really tell. I still return to this album and discover new things to take away from the experience, and while at the point of release we all may have been expecting another Scenes from a Memory, time has allowed us to reflect upon and appreciate the versatility this band has at communicating concept albums in unique ways.
https://loudwire.com/best-13th-albums-rock-metal-bands/
-
Well, decided to bump this thread as Ross Jennings of Haken had some thoughts about the Astonishing in a Loudwire article where musicians talks about bands' 13th album. Here's what he had to say. I do agree on what could have been if they decided to collaborate with other vocalists ala Ayreon and see how that turned out rather than have JLB handle all of the vocals. Maybe it could have been better with him having to play off other vocalists for this kind of album.
I have huge admiration for Dream Theater’s 13th album, The Astonishing not least for it’s hugely ambitious nature of fusing music, theater and science fiction literature, but indeed by inviting the listener into a whole universe of multimedia in order to consume their story, it is suddenly so much more than your average rock ’n’ roll concept album.
As someone who also writes music and lyrics through a very visual perspective, I truly appreciated the layers that were packed into forming the concept, and anyone who cared to explore this world in details that transcend the music and lyrics were truly rewarded.
After all, The Astonishing is a difficult record to appreciate casually, and while it’s not devoid of many signature Dream Theater musical traits, and contains a handful of really strong stand alone singles, it is, and must be approached as, a fully fledged piece of musical theater that demands the listener's time, effort and close attention. I always appreciate the record more with this in mind.
“People just don’t have the time for music any more” was the ultimate statement here about how music is consumed in a modern age and with an album as involved and epic as The Astonishing, I feel it proved its own case in point.
I’ve always wondered if The Astonishing may have polarized the hardcore fanbase less had this been approached as a more collaborative project a la Ayreon or even if the focus had been steered more toward an elaborate stage production with a variety of actors, singers, props and pyro? Having said this, James LaBrie gets a special mention from me for his truly admirable performance and portrayal of various characters.
And as for the legacy this album will leave, I guess time will really tell. I still return to this album and discover new things to take away from the experience, and while at the point of release we all may have been expecting another Scenes from a Memory, time has allowed us to reflect upon and appreciate the versatility this band has at communicating concept albums in unique ways.
https://loudwire.com/best-13th-albums-rock-metal-bands/
Well, I can say that even though I’m not huge fan of this record, I agree with everything Ross said in that article.
-
I will say this: the notion that "people don't have time" or "people don't appreciate" is sort of a copout. I think the people here, for example, put in the work, and yet even here, it's a polarizing piece.
I've "put in the work" on records like The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway and Tales From Topographic Oceans, and just this morning I was thinking that my three most favorite records over the last couple years are Innocence And Danger, Senjutsu, and Weltschmerz, all dense, deep double records. Not fantastical concepts, I grant you, but still heavy pieces of work. And yet... I'm still looking for the key to unlocking The Astonishing for myself.
-
I will say this: the notion that "people don't have time" or "people don't appreciate" is sort of a copout. I think the people here, for example, put in the work, and yet even here, it's a polarizing piece.
I've "put in the work" on records like The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway and Tales From Topographic Oceans, and just this morning I was thinking that my three most favorite records over the last couple years are Innocence And Danger, Senjutsu, and Weltschmerz, all dense, deep double records. Not fantastical concepts, I grant you, but still heavy pieces of work. And yet... I'm still looking for the key to unlocking The Astonishing for myself.
There’s nothing to unlock. It’s as “on the nose” as you can get. People either like it or don’t. The thing for me is that I have respect for what they attempted. And when I listen to it, I think “this isn’t that bad”. But I never want to listen to it. And there really aren’t any single songs where I think “this is just awesome”. And I know people will say “it’s meant to be taken as one whole piece”. I realize that, but if I have to listen to a whole 2.5 hours of music to get anything from it, then I’m out. I like songs. SFAM has great songs. Mindcrime has great songs. Snow has great songs. Also, I have a job, a wife, and four kids. I totally understand when people say they don’t have time for it :lol
-
There are many great songs on TA in my opinion. Gift of Music, A Life Left Behind, Ravenskill, Chosen, A New Beginning, Moment of Betrayal, The Path that Divides, Our New World, are all excellent tracks that stand alone.
I still find the whole experience very enjoyable and might listen to it later today. :coolio
-
There are many great songs on TA in my opinion. Gift of Music, A Life Left Behind, Ravenskill, Chosen, A New Beginning, Moment of Betrayal, The Path that Divides, Our New World, are all excellent tracks that stand alone.
I still find the whole experience very enjoyable and might listen to it later today. :coolio
I agree with you that those are the best tracks on the album.
-
Great take on the album by Ross. I agree about everything. :tup
-
I will say this: the notion that "people don't have time" or "people don't appreciate" is sort of a copout. I think the people here, for example, put in the work, and yet even here, it's a polarizing piece.
I've "put in the work" on records like The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway and Tales From Topographic Oceans, and just this morning I was thinking that my three most favorite records over the last couple years are Innocence And Danger, Senjutsu, and Weltschmerz, all dense, deep double records. Not fantastical concepts, I grant you, but still heavy pieces of work. And yet... I'm still looking for the key to unlocking The Astonishing for myself.
Well, he didn't say that was the reason for all people who don't like it. But I have no doubt that it's at least a part of the reason for a significant portion of people who don't like it.
-
I will say this: the notion that "people don't have time" or "people don't appreciate" is sort of a copout. I think the people here, for example, put in the work, and yet even here, it's a polarizing piece.
I've "put in the work" on records like The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway and Tales From Topographic Oceans, and just this morning I was thinking that my three most favorite records over the last couple years are Innocence And Danger, Senjutsu, and Weltschmerz, all dense, deep double records. Not fantastical concepts, I grant you, but still heavy pieces of work. And yet... I'm still looking for the key to unlocking The Astonishing for myself.
There’s nothing to unlock. It’s as “on the nose” as you can get. People either like it or don’t. The thing for me is that I have respect for what they attempted. And when I listen to it, I think “this isn’t that bad”. But I never want to listen to it. And there really aren’t any single songs where I think “this is just awesome”. And I know people will say “it’s meant to be taken as one whole piece”. I realize that, but if I have to listen to a whole 2.5 hours of music to get anything from it, then I’m out. I like songs. SFAM has great songs. Mindcrime has great songs. Snow has great songs. Also, I have a job, a wife, and four kids. I totally understand when people say they don’t have time for it :lol
Yeah, I didn't mean the literal story, I meant what you said after about finding the songs that resonate. I THINK I know parts of the story to TLLDOB, but it really didn't "unlock" for me until I could identify with certain songs - In The Cage, Lilywhite Lilith, all the little solo spots for Tony that later came up on the 3SL medley - that I could enjoy on their own independent of the story.
I saw an interview with Dominic Miller and Rick Beato, and Rick asked him: what's better: crap lyrics and a good melody, or great lyrics and no melody, and Dominic took the latter. Working for Sting, I guess I get it, but I'm the former, with only a few exceptions either way. I can't, right now, sing you one melody line from The Astonishing. Not saying they aren't there, just saying I haven't connected with them yet.
I'm not at all bagging on the work; it's an epic creation, no doubt. But music is personal, and it either resonates or it doesn't, and I don't (usually) force it. I don't need people drawing conclusions about my attention span or anything else simply because there is no visceral - that is to say, no UNCONSCIOUS - connection with a particular work. Some things have no answer.
-
I haven't watched that Dominic Miller interview but it's on the list, funny he mentions the bit about lyrics. I personally disagree and think melody can carry bad lyrics a lot more than the other way round.
With TA there just wasn't anything there that had me wanting to revisit the album. One common theme with albums that have grown on me over the years is that each one had at least a moment of something I enjoyed or found interesting, something to keep me coming back.
TA didn't have that, that album got a lot more spins simply because it was a DT release, if it was any other band I would've listened to it and moved on.
I admire and respect the work they put into the record but it simply isn't for me.
-
I will say this: the notion that "people don't have time" or "people don't appreciate" is sort of a copout. I think the people here, for example, put in the work, and yet even here, it's a polarizing piece.
I've "put in the work" on records like The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway and Tales From Topographic Oceans, and just this morning I was thinking that my three most favorite records over the last couple years are Innocence And Danger, Senjutsu, and Weltschmerz, all dense, deep double records. Not fantastical concepts, I grant you, but still heavy pieces of work. And yet... I'm still looking for the key to unlocking The Astonishing for myself.
There’s nothing to unlock. It’s as “on the nose” as you can get. People either like it or don’t. The thing for me is that I have respect for what they attempted. And when I listen to it, I think “this isn’t that bad”. But I never want to listen to it. And there really aren’t any single songs where I think “this is just awesome”. And I know people will say “it’s meant to be taken as one whole piece”. I realize that, but if I have to listen to a whole 2.5 hours of music to get anything from it, then I’m out. I like songs. SFAM has great songs. Mindcrime has great songs. Snow has great songs. Also, I have a job, a wife, and four kids. I totally understand when people say they don’t have time for it :lol
Totally agree with all of this. I´ve given it quite a few chances but I just doesn´t work for me. A few good songs but nothing really stands out compared to peak DT.
Also agree with Ross on the multiple vocalists. Labrie absolutely delivers on TA but the whole album could have been way more dynamic and credible by using female vocals as well. The Our New World version with Lzzy Hale works much better for me.
-
If DT ever get to perform TA live again (which I highly doubt), Ross should be one of the guest vocalists invited.
-
I agree with Jennings that The Astonishing would have been better received if they invited a bunch of guest performers and marketed it as a kind a side project as opposed to a full-fledged Dream Theater album. However, I'd imagine that would have been less financially viable, so I understand why they didn't do it. Still would have been pretty cool though!
-
If DT ever get to perform TA live again (which I highly doubt), Ross should be one of the guest vocalists invited.
Why make a bad album worse?
I kid I kid!
-
Yeah, the way to enjoy (yes, enjoy) this album is through the whole thing, like some people said. Trying to pick songs from it is not the way.
I sat down last week with my vinyl box and was following the script, looking at the map and cards, while listening to the whole thing.
In the end, I think it is a very enjoyable experience.
-
one of the funniest things about the Astonishing is knowing DT named it that so that the acronym would be TA, which would confuse people with the MP-adjacent project, Transatlantic. what a great way to grab some press when others use the acronym for the "other" band, :lol
edit: as far as the album itself, one of my least favorite, but some of the tracks are amazing. The Hovering Sojourn especially :D
-
one of the funniest things about the Astonishing is knowing DT named it that so that the acronym would be TA, which would confuse people with the MP-adjacent project, Transatlantic.
How do we know that?
-
one of the funniest things about the Astonishing is knowing DT named it that so that the acronym would be TA, which would confuse people with the MP-adjacent project, Transatlantic.
How do we know that?
I asked JP once after a gig in Denver
-
one of the funniest things about the Astonishing is knowing DT named it that so that the acronym would be TA, which would confuse people with the MP-adjacent project, Transatlantic.
How do we know that?
I asked JP once after a gig in Denver
Was he actually being serious?
-
one of the funniest things about the Astonishing is knowing DT named it that so that the acronym would be TA, which would confuse people with the MP-adjacent project, Transatlantic.
How do we know that?
I asked JP once after a gig in Denver
Was he actually being serious?
i chose to believe it. when i asked he smiled/laughed and said yes, so who could say
-
He was pulling your leg. :lol
-
I can really understand all the criticism this album has come across and it surely isn't one of my favorites. But I love the album because it's such an unique one in their catalogue, with stands completely on his own.
I dove into the Orullian book many times and his several hours reactionvideo on Youtube as well. (Funny detail, there's a strong lady in the storyline who's named Rena, after Petrucci's wife). Petrucci and Rudess dropped a couple of Inside The Astonishing video's, which gave a very interesting view on the themes and riffs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HSOba4cERE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shgl6gssyWw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hBWgTps_ug&t=931s
Those are all parts of the total experience which is to me, at least once a year, a very enjoyable ride. Vinylbox, map and lyrics in hand and then just being caried away on the storyline.
And A Savior In the Square has that very rare and gorgious intro which reminds me of The Killing Hand. Pure magic.
-
It will be interesting to see Portnoy's take on songs from The Astonishing live.
-
I would be surprised if Portnoy plays a single measure from TA
-
Yeah…they haven’t touched any of that in six years, I don’t see MP coming back as impetus to play that. They know it isn’t popular.
-
Just give me TA live from the LNFA and I'll be happy.
-
the gift of music will be played as a live opener, and portnoy will arrive dressed as the angel gabriel.. :mehlin
-
Just give me TA live from the LNFA and I'll be happy.
Oh yes.... I would love that
A BR with the video from the screens if nothing else is available
-
Gave this album 3 spins this week. My verdict is that I cannot stand the MIDI drums and while I love the album musically, I actually think that this album needs a remix. Kevin Shirley is my candidate for the job.
-
Gave this album 3 spins this week. My verdict is that I cannot stand the MIDI drums and while I love the album musically, I actually think that this album needs a remix. Kevin Shirley is my candidate for the job.
Yeah the drums have no life to them and it’s all bass drums in the mix. They’re more distracting as the Images and Words snare.
-
I know I'm probably the ONLY person in the world who thinks this, but my favorite drum sound (and overall production) for the Mangini era is ADTOE.
-
Gave this album 3 spins this week. My verdict is that I cannot stand the MIDI drums and while I love the album musically, I actually think that this album needs a remix. Kevin Shirley is my candidate for the job.
Yeah the drums have no life to them and it’s all bass drums in the mix. They’re more distracting as the Images and Words snare.
I don't understand how a DT-level band does not hear this, honestly...
-
Gave this album 3 spins this week. My verdict is that I cannot stand the MIDI drums and while I love the album musically, I actually think that this album needs a remix. Kevin Shirley is my candidate for the job.
Yeah the drums have no life to them and it’s all bass drums in the mix. They’re more distracting as the Images and Words snare.
I don't understand how a DT-level band does not hear this, honestly...
Not that I necessarily agree with the sound descriptions posted here but those production choices were 100% JP's responsibility. Now that MP is back, I expect him to influence the album production for the better.
-
Gave this album 3 spins this week. My verdict is that I cannot stand the MIDI drums and while I love the album musically, I actually think that this album needs a remix. Kevin Shirley is my candidate for the job.
Yeah the drums have no life to them and it’s all bass drums in the mix. They’re more distracting as the Images and Words snare.
I don't understand how a DT-level band does not hear this, honestly...
Not that I necessarily agree with the sound descriptions posted here but those production choices were 100% JP's responsibility. Now that MP is back, I expect him to influence the album production for the better.
Of all the recordings MP has done (and I’ve heard most) I can say that he always gets a great drum sound.
-
Gave this album 3 spins this week. My verdict is that I cannot stand the MIDI drums and while I love the album musically, I actually think that this album needs a remix. Kevin Shirley is my candidate for the job.
Yeah the drums have no life to them and it’s all bass drums in the mix. They’re more distracting as the Images and Words snare.
I don't understand how a DT-level band does not hear this, honestly...
Not that I necessarily agree with the sound descriptions posted here but those production choices were 100% JP's responsibility. Now that MP is back, I expect him to influence the album production for the better.
Of all the recordings MP has done (and I’ve heard most) I can say that he always gets a great drum sound.
For sure! Except for WDADU and IAW (not his fault at all).
-
Gave this album 3 spins this week. My verdict is that I cannot stand the MIDI drums and while I love the album musically, I actually think that this album needs a remix. Kevin Shirley is my candidate for the job.
Yeah the drums have no life to them and it’s all bass drums in the mix. They’re more distracting as the Images and Words snare.
I don't understand how a DT-level band does not hear this, honestly...
Not that I necessarily agree with the sound descriptions posted here but those production choices were 100% JP's responsibility. Now that MP is back, I expect him to influence the album production for the better.
As we have other MM recordings to compare them to, I reckon the descriptions are pretty accurate. MM never had the best drum sound but his DT sounds never did him justice IMO. I have had this opinion since The Enemy Inside Zildjian performance.
-
My opinion on TA has been pretty consistent over the years, I mostly enjoy the first 10-12 tracks (excluding the NOMAC tracks, ugh, wasn't one more than enough?). After that point, it mostly runs together, with a few exceptions. That was reiterated when I saw DT perform it live..., at some point, after song 10-12, I lost track of what song they were on / where they were in the plot. At least until they'd get to a "highlight" song or moment, then I'd again quickly get lost. I recall that the concert felt like a chore to get through from that point onwards. That was in spite of the fact that I saw the slightly truncated version where they nixed a few from TA and added a few "best of" DT tracks to the end of the show.
IMO, they didn't have the songs or story/concept to support an album with 34 tracks and intended to be like a Broadway musical. I really wish they had focused on narrowing this down to one disc like Scenes. That seemingly would have allowed the cream to rise to the top. I guarantee they could have told pretty much the same story in one disc.
That being said, I wish the storyline underlying the project had been better or at least more unique. I've described it as asinine ever since the album was released and time has done it no favors. I couldn't make myself care one iota about the plight of the various characters, knowing full well that music was going to win in the end.
This may just be funny to me, but during the live show when the characters are sobbing over the death of Faythe, one of my buddies looked at me and said, "Smells like someone died", quoting the movie "Tombstone." I think we cracked up for a good chunk of the remainder of the show.
Overall, I still appreciate that they were willing to try something different and ambitious, even if it didn't totally work for me. Also, I still legitimately enjoy some of the album.
-
I really wish they had focused on narrowing this down to one disc like Scenes. That seemingly would have allowed the cream to rise to the top. I guarantee they could have told pretty much the same story in one disc.
I can get on board with this. I've made my own Astonishing Abridged and it's a great playlist.
That being said, I wish the storyline underlying the project had been better or at least more unique. I've described it as asinine ever since the album was released and time has done it no favors. I couldn't make myself care one iota about the plight of the various characters, knowing full well that music was going to win in the end.
Asinine is a bit harsh.
Overall, I still appreciate that they were willing to try something different and ambitious, ... Also, I still legitimately enjoy some of the album.
Definitely.
-
I've been listening to a lot of SFAM lately, and one of the many things that is so impressive about that album is how so many songs are genuinely powerful in their own right, even completely out of context from the rest of the album. I don't think TA nails that quite as well. Don't get me wrong, there are awesome individual songs, but in comparison to SFAM, I think most tracks on TA are a little more beholden to the overall listening experience of the album (or at least being in a decent playlist). This isn't inherently a bad thing, but I do think it narrows the audience down a bit.
-
I agree that around 8 of the 34 tracks on The Astonishing are decent songs in their own right.
-
I've been listening to a lot of SFAM lately, and one of the many things that is so impressive about that album is how so many songs are genuinely powerful in their own right, even completely out of context from the rest of the album. I don't think TA nails that quite as well. Don't get me wrong, there are awesome individual songs, but in comparison to SFAM, I think most tracks on TA are a little more beholden to the overall listening experience of the album (or at least being in a decent playlist). This isn't inherently a bad thing, but I do think it narrows the audience down a bit.
This is my biggest gripe with The Astonishing.
-
I've been listening to a lot of SFAM lately, and one of the many things that is so impressive about that album is how so many songs are genuinely powerful in their own right, even completely out of context from the rest of the album. I don't think TA nails that quite as well. Don't get me wrong, there are awesome individual songs, but in comparison to SFAM, I think most tracks on TA are a little more beholden to the overall listening experience of the album (or at least being in a decent playlist). This isn't inherently a bad thing, but I do think it narrows the audience down a bit.
Despite being conceptual albums by the same band, which aim to tell a story, they have a different nature.
TA is more like The Wall or Quadrophenia, in the sense that these works have A LOT of songs that practically have no life of their own outside the context of their albums. Although some songs work out of context, not the majority and these works were designed with unity.
SFAM is a conceptual album that seems to have sought both things at the same time: forming a unit as a conceptual work and letting each song (or most of them) function as an individual piece.
-
The brtual pitch bend on James's voice in The Gift of Music bothers me so much I can't even do a proper playthrough from the beginning. I like a couple of songs on Disc 1. i've still not gotten far enough to hear Disc 2, I just am bored by it.
-
The story is not in my wheelhouse -- they definitely went for a fantasy musical angle that is new for them (and me).
That said... I think this might be my favorite release with MM? There's a lot in it that pleases me. Some of it I have to be in the mood for, but Three Days, Tempting Offer, Ravenskill, Moment of Betrayal, Heaven's Cove, Walking Shadow... hoo! Fun bops.
-
The more I think about the astonishing, the more I regret JP didn't wonder why other guys succeed...
-The story isn't that clear (especially for foreigners like me)
-There are many caracters and I prefer the Ayreon way to do it (several singers)
-The cheese is saturated, too cheesy
-Too many ballads and fillers, they would fit a movie version, but as a CD it just drains the energy
-Not DT enough, there are maybe 15 minutes of DT genius (and some pretty soulful JP solos) over two disks. We expect to recognize our favorite band and it's work.
Maybe it should have been a JP solo album.
After the first listens, everyone began to do shorter edits of the album, and nowadays, I think I'd be ashamed to listen to it in public.
-
That said... I think this might be my favorite release with MM? There's a lot in it that pleases me.
Thank you for saying this! :D I wonder sometimes what a "write a positive review of The Astonishing" challenge thread would look like. There's so much blind hate for this album out there (disclaimer: not talking about here) that I think some are unwilling to admit they even like it. A challenge might be a fun way to encourage a look past the things that make people cringe to the hidden gems within.
Some of it I have to be in the mood for, but Three Days, Tempting Offer, Ravenskill, Moment of Betrayal, Heaven's Cove, Walking Shadow... hoo! Fun bops.
Moment of Betrayal is my favorite song on the album. In my opinion it stands alone, also, and I don't see why it wouldn't be a good choice (eventually) to include live as a nod to this era.
-
That said... I think this might be my favorite release with MM? There's a lot in it that pleases me.
Thank you for saying this! :D I wonder sometimes what a "write a positive review of The Astonishing" challenge thread would look like. There's so much blind hate for this album out there (disclaimer: not talking about here) that I think some are unwilling to admit they even like it. A challenge might be a fun way to encourage a look past the things that make people cringe to the hidden gems within.
Some of it I have to be in the mood for, but Three Days, Tempting Offer, Ravenskill, Moment of Betrayal, Heaven's Cove, Walking Shadow... hoo! Fun bops.
Moment of Betrayal is my favorite song on the album. In my opinion it stands alone, also, and I don't see why it wouldn't be a good choice (eventually) to include live as a nod to this era.
I absolutely agree that Moment of Betrayal would be a great choice to represent the album in a setlist. It might be the song that best meshes the "serving the story" and the "standing on its own" aspects. In a parallel reality where material from the Astonishing formed a single album (fully conceptual, slightly conceptual or not at all), I could definitely see it being a track 1 or 2 "hard-hitter" in the vein of Enemy Inside or OTBOA – not that it would've been better like that (I much rather prefer a world with The Astonishing as it is), this just got me thinking about the genealogy of the song's writing.
-
I still like this album a lot, I just don't care about the NOMAC tracks at all, and it's still a bit hard to get through all of it on one full listen when my quiet/alone music listening times are so reduced lately.
Was really hoping for a TA live album from the LNFA, but now that things have changed, I don't really know what to expect in terms of new releases with the MM lineup.
-
I like the NOMAC tracks :lol
Some of the other songs, however, I always skip.
-
I like the NOMAC tracks :lol
Some of the other songs, however, I always skip.
That's got to be the most controversial take on The Astonishing I've ever read :eek :lol
-
*shrugs*
-
I like the NOMAC tracks :lol
Some of the other songs, however, I always skip.
That says A LOT about those songs! :lol
-
I’ve been a fan of DT since before Pull me Under hit MTV.
Bought Images and Words from Tower records knowing nothing about the band.
Just wanted something “power metal”
I haven’t really loved any album since Scenes…
And Astonishing blew my mind. Never thought DT could release another great album again.
But they did. Freaking love Astonishing.
It’s the only great album they’ve done since Scenes.
-
Slightly off topic but anybody know what a good asking price is for an autographed Astonishing poster?
-
4,20
-
Slightly off topic but anybody know what a good asking price is for an autographed Astonishing poster?
Not sure. I consider mine priceless because it is literally one of a kind, so I'm not the best judge lol.
-
Slightly off topic but anybody know what a good asking price is for an autographed Astonishing poster?
No clue but I'd make room on my wall for one.
-
Think I actually binned mine.
-
I should try this again. I despised it when it came out and never tried again. I guess I should.
You know, I hate this album but I think I only actually listened to it like......twice? Do I dare?
Go into it with an open mind. You might hate it again, but also, it might just slightly improve. :tup
Try to focus on the eccentric vocals and the beautiful musical themes, especially the piano passages. That's where the gold of the album is in my opinion, but there's a lot of it to love.
Hmmm....sounds like a lot of work.
Seems these three posts were all I've contributed to the discussion of this album. Before you thank me for the contributions to the thread, I'm planning on doing my what I think is third proper listen in about 23 hours from now. I'll post some live thinkings as I'm going along. I want to try and find some positive things about this album so will be going in open minded.
-
I should try this again. I despised it when it came out and never tried again. I guess I should.
You know, I hate this album but I think I only actually listened to it like......twice? Do I dare?
Go into it with an open mind. You might hate it again, but also, it might just slightly improve. :tup
Try to focus on the eccentric vocals and the beautiful musical themes, especially the piano passages. That's where the gold of the album is in my opinion, but there's a lot of it to love.
Hmmm....sounds like a lot of work.
Seems these three posts were all I've contributed to the discussion of this album. Before you thank me for the contributions to the thread, I'm planning on doing my what I think is third proper listen in about 23 hours from now. I'll post some live thinkings as I'm going along. I want to try and find some positive things about this album so will be going in open minded.
Good luck!
Finding the positive things to say, that is. :biggrin:
-
Oh puleeze. If Lonestar sent you The Astonishing in a roulette, you'd find a way to love it and give it the highest score.
-
Oh puleeze. If Lonestar sent you The Astonishing in a roulette, you'd find a way to love it and give it the highest score.
You know he's never finished better than 4th in a Roulette of mine, and didn't even qualify for one of them.
Ya know, I've heard of penis envy, but I've never heard of musical-taste envy. :lol
-
Settle down ladies.
I will definitely be doing the listen tomorrow, Friday morning I'm busy.
-
I tried really hard to give it another shot with an open mind ... er, ears. But even after sifting out the NOMAC shit and unnecessary bits through Tim's abridged version, it's still just not good, imo. It's as if JP was trying to write a graphic novel, and then adapt it for a concept album. But adapting the story to fit into a double album made both the story and the album worse off for it. The storyline is pedestrian enough to begin with, and the adaptation into a concept album made the lyrics, frankly, juvenile. Few of the songs stand up well on their own (with so many sampled effects that were needed to tell the story), and it just all blends into a pot purri of mediocrity. And I simply cannot stand the premise that JLB is portraying, what?? .... 8 different characters?? There's not enough variation in his delivery that allows me to buy this for even one moment. And the overall production of his voice sounds just too processed - I just don't think it sounds natural; it's almost the equivalent of the snare in I&W; it's a programmed sound, replicating the instrument. That's how I hear his vocals on this album.
Again, all of this is just my opinion.
TASTESTM!!
-
Fair critique there Chad. I did always think James playing all the characters was a bit of a head scratcher.
-
I tried really hard to give it another shot with an open mind ... er, ears. But even after sifting out the NOMAC shit and unnecessary bits through Tim's abridged version, it's still just not good, imo. It's as if JP was trying to write a graphic novel, and then adapt it for a concept album. But adapting the story to fit into a double album made both the story and the album worse off for it. The storyline is pedestrian enough to begin with, and the adaptation into a concept album made the lyrics, frankly, juvenile. Few of the songs stand up well on their own (with so many sampled effects that were needed to tell the story), and it just all blends into a pot purri of mediocrity. And I simply cannot stand the premise that JLB is portraying, what?? .... 8 different characters?? There's not enough variation in his delivery that allows me to buy this for even one moment. And the overall production of his voice sounds just too processed - I just don't think it sounds natural; it's almost the equivalent of the snare in I&W; it's a programmed sound, replicating the instrument. That's how I hear his vocals on this album.
Again, all of this is just my opinion.
TASTESTM!!
It's like they were trying to make an Ayreon album without the key Ayreon ingredient, numerous guest vocalists.....Oh and a compelling story...
-
I should try this again. I despised it when it came out and never tried again. I guess I should.
You know, I hate this album but I think I only actually listened to it like......twice? Do I dare?
Go into it with an open mind. You might hate it again, but also, it might just slightly improve. :tup
Try to focus on the eccentric vocals and the beautiful musical themes, especially the piano passages. That's where the gold of the album is in my opinion, but there's a lot of it to love.
Hmmm....sounds like a lot of work.
Seems these three posts were all I've contributed to the discussion of this album. Before you thank me for the contributions to the thread, I'm planning on doing my what I think is third proper listen in about 23 hours from now. I'll post some live thinkings as I'm going along. I want to try and find some positive things about this album so will be going in open minded.
I am very interested in your opinion about JP's soloing in this album.
-
I should try this again. I despised it when it came out and never tried again. I guess I should.
You know, I hate this album but I think I only actually listened to it like......twice? Do I dare?
Go into it with an open mind. You might hate it again, but also, it might just slightly improve. :tup
Try to focus on the eccentric vocals and the beautiful musical themes, especially the piano passages. That's where the gold of the album is in my opinion, but there's a lot of it to love.
Hmmm....sounds like a lot of work.
Seems these three posts were all I've contributed to the discussion of this album. Before you thank me for the contributions to the thread, I'm planning on doing my what I think is third proper listen in about 23 hours from now. I'll post some live thinkings as I'm going along. I want to try and find some positive things about this album so will be going in open minded.
I am very interested in your opinion about JP's soloing in this album.
Ok mate, I'll definitely take note and make some observations.
-
I tried really hard to give it another shot with an open mind ... er, ears. But even after sifting out the NOMAC shit and unnecessary bits through Tim's abridged version, it's still just not good, imo. It's as if JP was trying to write a graphic novel, and then adapt it for a concept album. But adapting the story to fit into a double album made both the story and the album worse off for it. The storyline is pedestrian enough to begin with, and the adaptation into a concept album made the lyrics, frankly, juvenile. Few of the songs stand up well on their own (with so many sampled effects that were needed to tell the story), and it just all blends into a pot purri of mediocrity. And I simply cannot stand the premise that JLB is portraying, what?? .... 8 different characters?? There's not enough variation in his delivery that allows me to buy this for even one moment. And the overall production of his voice sounds just too processed - I just don't think it sounds natural; it's almost the equivalent of the snare in I&W; it's a programmed sound, replicating the instrument. That's how I hear his vocals on this album.
Again, all of this is just my opinion.
TASTESTM!!
It's like they were trying to make an Ayreon album without the key Ayreon ingredient, numerous guest vocalists.....Oh and a compelling story...
And good story telling. Yes, Arjen has some cheesy lyrics sprinkled throughout every album, but at least he doesn't spoon feed the story to me in a color-by-numbers kinda way. To me, the way the story is told/explained/described is more like an instruction manual than an actual storyline.
-
I remember that The Astonishing show, back in 2016, was absolutely incredible. This album was definitely made for the stage because the visuals (although I still think the 3D models were cringy AF) and production added so much to the experience.
On the subject of NOMAC tracks... I think they are really weird. I mean, I do a lot of experimental electroacoustic composition so I'm very familiar with timbre-based music but those pieces don't serve any narrative purposes other than saying: "The Noise Machines produce noise, let's all remember this. Gabriel has the power of chords and harmony!", which is a really bland storytelling device. Maybe one or two could've been enough at that.
I still think this album has some of the most beautiful DT music ever written (I rank it quite high among DT's catalog), but I think that some of the choices they made with this were not very effective. The full Astonishing novel that was released after the album is the clear example of this. It's like they realized the story was as literal and linear as you could go and had the need to "deepen" the characters. I once tried to watch the 7 hour YouTube video with Peter Orullian and I felt it was too much. They try to add this ambivalence and dimension to characters like Lord Nafaryus (you could've just called him Lord Evil at that) when the whole scope of the story was already clear and set. The reason that novels like A Song of Fire & Ice are so good is that the narrative and plot are so deeply intertwined with character motivation and development which is something that's not very present in The Astonishing. I think it tried, but was not very good at it.
Oh well, I still think this was by far the most ambitious and risky musical project of the Mangini era and that's mostly a good thing. Great things happen with artists get very far from their comfort zone.
-
I tried really hard to give it another shot with an open mind ... er, ears. But even after sifting out the NOMAC shit and unnecessary bits through Tim's abridged version, it's still just not good, imo. It's as if JP was trying to write a graphic novel, and then adapt it for a concept album. But adapting the story to fit into a double album made both the story and the album worse off for it. The storyline is pedestrian enough to begin with, and the adaptation into a concept album made the lyrics, frankly, juvenile. Few of the songs stand up well on their own (with so many sampled effects that were needed to tell the story), and it just all blends into a pot purri of mediocrity. And I simply cannot stand the premise that JLB is portraying, what?? .... 8 different characters?? There's not enough variation in his delivery that allows me to buy this for even one moment. And the overall production of his voice sounds just too processed - I just don't think it sounds natural; it's almost the equivalent of the snare in I&W; it's a programmed sound, replicating the instrument. That's how I hear his vocals on this album.
Again, all of this is just my opinion.
TASTESTM!!
It's like they were trying to make an Ayreon album without the key Ayreon ingredient, numerous guest vocalists.....Oh and a compelling story...
And good story telling. Yes, Arjen has some cheesy lyrics sprinkled throughout every album, but at least he doesn't spoon feed the story to me in a color-by-numbers kinda way. To me, the way the story is told/explained/described is more like an instruction manual than an actual storyline.
This is Gabriel.....he wants to make the world a better place....that makes him the good guy...
This is Lord Nefaryus.....he is the bad guy....
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/dd3882c4ad0fd11a14cffc7e5edaabe5ce8a8b53/0_85_1077_646/master/1077.jpg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=c906598d7b435814a7e49a5ee4779c2f)
With a name like that, he better be...
-
I remember that The Astonishing show, back in 2016, was absolutely incredible. This album was definitely made for the stage because the visuals (although I still think the 3D models were cringy AF) and production added so much to the experience.
On the subject of NOMAC tracks... I think they are really weird. I mean, I do a lot of experimental electroacoustic composition so I'm very familiar with timbre-based music but those pieces don't serve any narrative purposes other than saying: "The Noise Machines produce noise, let's all remember this. Gabriel has the power of chords and harmony!", which is a really bland storytelling device. Maybe one or two could've been enough at that.
I still think this album has some of the most beautiful DT music ever written (I rank it quite high among DT's catalog), but I think that some of the choices they made with this were not very effective. The full Astonishing novel that was released after the album is the clear example of this. It's like they realized the story was as literal and linear as you could go and had the need to "deepen" the characters. I once tried to watch the 7 hour YouTube video with Peter Orullian and I felt it was too much. They try to add this ambivalence and dimension to characters like Lord Nafaryus (you could've just called him Lord Evil at that) when the whole scope of the story was already clear and set. The reason that novels like A Song of Fire & Ice are so good is that the narrative and plot are so deeply intertwined with character motivation and development which is something that's not very present in The Astonishing. I think it tried, but was not very good at it.
Oh well, I still think this was by far the most ambitious and risky musical project of the Mangini era and that's mostly a good thing. Great things happen with artists get very far from their comfort zone.
7 Hours of The Astonishing!?!? I'd rather dry shave RJ's balls with a rusty blade.
-
I remember that The Astonishing show, back in 2016, was absolutely incredible. This album was definitely made for the stage because the visuals (although I still think the 3D models were cringy AF) and production added so much to the experience.
On the subject of NOMAC tracks... I think they are really weird. I mean, I do a lot of experimental electroacoustic composition so I'm very familiar with timbre-based music but those pieces don't serve any narrative purposes other than saying: "The Noise Machines produce noise, let's all remember this. Gabriel has the power of chords and harmony!", which is a really bland storytelling device. Maybe one or two could've been enough at that.
I still think this album has some of the most beautiful DT music ever written (I rank it quite high among DT's catalog), but I think that some of the choices they made with this were not very effective. The full Astonishing novel that was released after the album is the clear example of this. It's like they realized the story was as literal and linear as you could go and had the need to "deepen" the characters. I once tried to watch the 7 hour YouTube video with Peter Orullian and I felt it was too much. They try to add this ambivalence and dimension to characters like Lord Nafaryus (you could've just called him Lord Evil at that) when the whole scope of the story was already clear and set. The reason that novels like A Song of Fire & Ice are so good is that the narrative and plot are so deeply intertwined with character motivation and development which is something that's not very present in The Astonishing. I think it tried, but was not very good at it.
Oh well, I still think this was by far the most ambitious and risky musical project of the Mangini era and that's mostly a good thing. Great things happen with artists get very far from their comfort zone.
7 Hours of The Astonishing!?!? I'd rather dry shave RJ's balls with a rusty blade.
Here you go, some easy afternoon listenin': https://youtu.be/wmm6Rz9uKkM
-
I'd rather dry shave RJ's balls with a rusty blade.
IT'S IN MY MIND NOW! :noeyes:
-
I remember that The Astonishing show, back in 2016, was absolutely incredible. This album was definitely made for the stage because the visuals (although I still think the 3D models were cringy AF) and production added so much to the experience.
On the subject of NOMAC tracks... I think they are really weird. I mean, I do a lot of experimental electroacoustic composition so I'm very familiar with timbre-based music but those pieces don't serve any narrative purposes other than saying: "The Noise Machines produce noise, let's all remember this. Gabriel has the power of chords and harmony!", which is a really bland storytelling device. Maybe one or two could've been enough at that.
I still think this album has some of the most beautiful DT music ever written (I rank it quite high among DT's catalog), but I think that some of the choices they made with this were not very effective. The full Astonishing novel that was released after the album is the clear example of this. It's like they realized the story was as literal and linear as you could go and had the need to "deepen" the characters. I once tried to watch the 7 hour YouTube video with Peter Orullian and I felt it was too much. They try to add this ambivalence and dimension to characters like Lord Nafaryus (you could've just called him Lord Evil at that) when the whole scope of the story was already clear and set. The reason that novels like A Song of Fire & Ice are so good is that the narrative and plot are so deeply intertwined with character motivation and development which is something that's not very present in The Astonishing. I think it tried, but was not very good at it.
Oh well, I still think this was by far the most ambitious and risky musical project of the Mangini era and that's mostly a good thing. Great things happen with artists get very far from their comfort zone.
7 Hours of The Astonishing!?!? I'd rather dry shave RJ's balls with a rusty blade.
Here you go, some easy afternoon listenin': https://youtu.be/wmm6Rz9uKkM
Why would anyone on earth put themselves through this? :rollin
-
I'd rather dry shave RJ's balls with a rusty blade.
IT'S IN MY MIND NOW! :noeyes:
Sorry bout that. Correction ... a DULL, rusty blade.
-
Why would anyone on earth put themselves through this? :rollin
I'm on team "I think The Astonishing is a great album"! so I really wanted to connect a little bit more with the concept, but after 30 minutes or so I left. It was pretty overwhelming.
-
Why would anyone on earth put themselves through this? :rollin
I'm on team "I think The Astonishing is a great album"! so I really wanted to connect a little bit more with the concept, but after 30 minutes or so I left. It was pretty overwhelming.
I'm not coming from that angle. I think a 30 minute breakdown video would have been fine. I mean, 7 hours!? Even my fav albums of all time, I wouldn't sit through a 7 hour breakdown video. That's just crazy.
-
While I'm in here, putting myself through the album will commence in about 3 to 3.5 hours.
-
Look forward to following along!
-
Well, keep in mind that Peter wrote the novel, so he felt like he had a LOT to contribute. And even his regular music breakdown videos tend to be long, as I recall. Of course, none of that makes it any easier or more desireable to listen to as a listener. But I offer that simply as an explanation for why he would even make such a thing to begin with.
-
Well, keep in mind that Peter wrote the novel, so he felt like he had a LOT to contribute. And even his regular music breakdown videos tend to be long, as I recall. Of course, none of that makes it any easier or more desireable to listen to as a listener. But I offer that simply as an explanation for why he would even make such a thing to begin with.
That is good context and makes it less of a WTF moment. I thought it must have been just some random dude breaking it down or something.
-
Here you go, some easy afternoon listenin': https://youtu.be/wmm6Rz9uKkM
Thank you! Next bus it's on.
-
I honestly wish this would've been expanded into a full on Broadway musical. This is a concept that does not translate well as it is. I understand that the band and JP could only do with what they are given.
I went to go see HadesTown a couple weeks ago and this is a concept that started as a single CD and ended up being expanded into a full on musical. It was amazing seeing this show.
It would work wonders if The Astonishing was able to get this treatment. You have the different cast of characters, the stage production, and you could even include some different interludes and transitions
-
Nah. It's a rock band album. No need for anything else...novels, action figures..
-
Nah. It's a rock band album. No need for anything else...novels, action figures..
What we got is a rock band album. The concept itself deserves to be realized as a full on musical. Just like when I first heard the HadesTown album, I told my friend, this would be amazing as a musical. Lo and behold, the concept was expanded into a musical.
-
I love TA, Top 4 DT for me, and I believe its music ideas would have benefitted much by an extention to grand musical theatre length standards. On the other hand, among its flaws is wanting to be a kind of musical while lacking many structural features making great musicals effective.
-
Why would anyone on earth put themselves through this? :rollin
To digest the storyline on a deeper level. I did, watched the whole 7 hours (split in three sections) and learned a lot from it. But I wanna dive deep into the albums they made and The Astonishing has many ways to do so.
-
action figures
Even I would never have purchased those. :o
-
Nah. It's a rock band album. No need for anything else...novels, action figures..
Did someone say ACTION FIGGERS?!
https://youtu.be/vXFefLdd1HI?si=bb_yRQFZ1yPJoJe2
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1070790529662954
Can't find the JLB video.
-
I would buy a Nef action figure.
-
I would buy a Nef action figure.
Ok, I concede.... maybe just one little Gabriel. But only if he looked exactly like James.
-
I'd probably buy Faythe too, assuming she came with music player.
-
I'd probably buy Faythe too, assuming she came with music player.
Wow, talk about a private paradise.
-
Alright, back from the morning run and I'll be spinning this in about 45 minutes. Gotta eat first after the effort this morning. Or maybe that's not a good idea before diving into this? ;D
-
Gave it a spin earlier today at work. Just as in the past, I really, really enjoyed it through Heaven's Cove. After that, it loses me until Our New World and Astonishing. As I said earlier (I think it was in the MP thread), I rarely engage in "I wish the band had done X instead of Y" because that kind of thinking is self-centered and unproductive. But I really wish they had reworked that middle part of disk 2 to tighten it up. Could have been one of my favorite albums if they had. But as it is, I still really love the rest of it.
-
Alright, about to push play. Not sure how I'll post or react or how much I will as I'm listening. Let's see.
There's not much back story for me behind this album but I remember the time it came out. When ADTOE came out, I thought it was just okay. I didn't see what the hype was about. So, I didn't really care as much about DT around that period. When DT12 came out though, it blew me away. It's my fav of the MM era. It got me excited for DT again. So when they announced TA, my expectations were pretty high. I purchased the CD, put it in and sat down and devoted my time to a full listen. I remember thinking as it was going along, '.......uh.....WTF is this?' By the second disc, I couldn't wait for it to be over. I was so disappointed. I thought maybe you know, first listen, give it another chance. I despised it even more the second listen and don't think I even got halfway through the second CD before turning it off. That was it, I couldn't believe one of my favourite bands had come out with this garbage. I have had zero desire to ever try it again. I couldn't tell you a thing about any of the songs.
So, I guess it's time to finally try it again and see if anything tickles the eardrum more than it did almost 8 years ago.
-
If you listen more for melodies and vocals than Metal it might help a little :tup
-
Alright, about to push play.
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2015/pUXGjL.gif)
-
:lol
Good one, Tim!
:corn
-
Descent of the NOMACS - First off, this gives you a sense this is going to be one fucking ballsy, heavy album. I dunno, SX vibes with this kind of intro for some reason, Iconoclast or something.
Overture - Okay, this sounds like DT straight off the bat. That melody at 0:44 is actually really nice. Goes off into a standard DT direction though at 1:00. I wished they kept going outside the box with that 16 second section. But I know, this is an Overture.
2:03 - Wait, is this Six Degrees. Around the 3 minute mark I'm drifting but that major key melody at 3:25 is quite nice. Again, lots of 6D feels here. Around 4 minutes, alright, that's enough boys, let's move on. I have another 32 fucking tracks to get through.
Gift of Music - This was the lead single right? Okay, shit......About to Crash re-reprise? Okay, I'm alright so far with this. Oh shit, I cringed hard at the 'people don't have time for music anymore' line. :facepalm: :lol Gabriel come save us lol. Hmmm...I actually forgot what the story was about.
2:20 - Alright, some JP action. I love that touch harmonic at 2:24, all class. This is surprisingly shreddy for this type of song, but it works okay. 2:40, we heard that bend in ATE. There's always something nice in a guitar solo and often underused when you play in a minor shape but bend the 3rd or 6th notes up a tone. So often based on the shape of the scale/mode it's usually the 2nd, 4th or 7th that are the most frequently bended notes, the others are underused but so effective when done in the way JP does it here. John Norum springs to mind to with his style. Anyway, I'm getting distracted, I'll be hear all day....unpause.
That 2:44 part is cool, seems out of context of the tune though. Oh wait, it goes into Metropolis, all is forgiven. 3:38 more Jordan 6D style. I'll take the comment out about it not fitting with the style as it didn't go back to a vocal section. As a stand alone piece I don't see it working, but I didn't mind that on a whole.
The Answer - Getting strong SS vibes here. Was it there intention to try and imitate a 6D style with this album? It reeks of it so far. As Alex has said, Jordan is the master of the piano, you can't ever not love his piano playing. Luckily, that was short and is over.
A Better Life - Funny, straight off this reminds me of Empire of the Clouds from Maiden for the piano intro. As we get going, I'm already having trouble connecting everything together. I'm lacking any real distinction in hooks or repetitive sections to really make any kind of era worm. Were they also going for a one song effect? The chorus here though comes just at the right time as I write this. It's not bad.
More JP action. How good is this man over a setting where it just breathes. He can do so much and has so many ideas over this kind of setting. Although, this again seems a bit hectic in the first half. Sometimes he can't help himself though. That half time feel though makes it okay. How good is 2:41 and I love how he is such an avid user of the bridge and neck pickups so frequently, that change in tone at 2:43, switching from the neck to the bridge is so good. I do think he goes a bit shreddy in this second half too, but that was cool.
Again, are they going for a one song effect, what the fuck is with the end of this song? Would have been the perfect time of the album to go back to that chorus but what a complete letdown.
Lord Nafaryus - Ooh....all of a sudden we're into The Test That Stumped Them All territory. This is an abrupt way to enter the song and doesn't make sense to me. This is all over the shop, this......isn't very good. Post break.
-
Savior in the Square - Nice intro. Trying to put my finger on who JP is channeling here. Is it Satriani, is it Schon, even Eric Johnson vibes I get from the melodies. 1:30.......wait, Illumination Theory? Oh, what the fuck is going on here? Should have been an instrumental, that intro makes no sense with what's going on now. Again, it's just one thing after another different thing, this lacks complete coherency. Finally though we get a nice James melody, in his sweet spot used correctly.....oh wait....forget that, more random shit.
When Your Time Has Come - You can tell John and Jordan were the sole writers here, the whole thing I mean. Jordan is the obvious star. James would be too if he wasn't pulled and shoved in every which direction each minute or so.
The problem I have is that the ideas are all there, but so far it's like they've made the consciouss decision to spread as many different ideas across the album in some feat that that is what a rock opera consists of. They've used the idea of what they think it should be, and forgotten about the songs I think. Like they've lost focus on the songs and just focused on the elements they think it should be.
Ohh.....some wah Petrucci. Again, this is nice but you can tell with this section Petrucci isn't thinking about the stage production, not necessarily the song. This song is although pleasant enough and gives you some breathing room but then....again after the solo........dah duh!! Another dramatic change in direction just for the sake of it....uhh....and just ends fucking nowhere.
-
Act of Faythe - Again, I just feel with this intro they have thought too much about the whole grand design and concept/stage show instead of the album. Ahh....I'm getting over it already unfortunately. 3:23 :lol :rollin :lol :rollin Oh fuck!!?! :lol :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: I kew it, I shouldn't have eaten breakfast before this.
-
Three Days - More paino. I can see why Alessandro likes this album, seems to have everything he loves about JR. I do appreciate what James is doing on this album. While he was given the task of playing 58 characters, he's doing a good job and is having some great moments given the circumstances. That laugh at 1:55 is epic...wait was this the song Tim was referencing King Diamond, I can hear that. Again, this is just so random though, it's just hard to stay focused on it all.
the hovering sojourn - yeah cool
Brother, Can you Hear Me? - Track 12, holy fuck there's so much more to go.......was this long intro really necessary. This melody feels like it should be something much later in the album, towards the end. Seems weird placed here. Maybe I need to read through the story more thoroughly......4:00 - oh brother can you just fuck off now, is more like it.
This album needs more JP.
-
Act of Faythe - Again, I just feel with this intro they have thought too much about the whole grand design and concept/stage show instead of the album. Ahh....I'm getting over it already unfortunately. 3:23 :lol :rollin :lol :rollin Oh fuck!!?! :lol :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: I kew it, I shouldn't have eaten breakfast before this.
:lol :lol
-
I'd probably buy Faythe too, assuming she came with music player.
...and she looked exactly like James. :biggrin:
-
Three Days wait was this the song Tim was referencing King Diamond, I can hear that.
No, it's The Walking Shadow.
-
A Life Left Behind - 8VM vibes here. Pretty sure 0:34 is ripped directly from it. The other issue I have is like right now. We get some more darker DT sections which breaks up what's going on but then it seems the vocal sections always divert to a more major key based feel. While James shines in this area, it's making everything a blur and forgettable to me and truthfully just not very exciting. Perhaps though that's part of what they were going for in regards to the concept, I don't know.
*Looks at time, shit still 2 minutes left of this one.* James, just go back to sleep bruh.
Ravenskill - Okay, finally, a more minor based quieter vocal section. That's a lot of reverb on James' voice. Oh shit, they couldn't help themselves shifting mid-way. That main melody from Jordan though is wonderful. 1:22......Ah, I'm losing interest again. 2:11, alright I'm sitting up again, what have we got here........seems JP's riff ideas are all kinda similar too, again, perhaps that's the point. Nah, around 3:30 I'm drifting again.
3:53, I like that from James though. Oh, it's gone fucking quiet again ffs. And still, where the fuck is JP?! Oh look, another attempt of a climatic exit when it's not needed.
Chosen - Far out, I'm starting to get shitty hey.......1:58...hmm...alright, this is a really nice melody, and JP doing some tasty stuff in the background. Oh.....there he is. Why is he still shredding? Trying to make up for the songs he didn't get a solo? Again as I said before, JP has such an amazing ability to let his guitar sing and let the music breathe under any backing he chooses really, but he always is on the edge of just going over with the notes. BUT most of the time, it works just fine. Not sure here. At least once this song got going, it had the structure of a normal song and you had time to sit with it and appreciate the melodies as there was a bit of repetition.
A Tempting Offer - More dramatic cinematic type of shit going on here. Cool keyboard patch and vibe there at 1:20 though. James again sounds nice in the next section but again, I'm drifting here. Next please.....
-
I'm really trying with this hey lads, I'm not trying to be a dick but this is a struggle.....
-
Three Days wait was this the song Tim was referencing King Diamond, I can hear that.
No, it's The Walking Shadow.
Ah, noted.
-
I'm really trying with this hey lads, I'm not trying to be a dick but this is a struggle.....
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3owypnv1Med6YoCbcs/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952n0t4ujx7uuok00lk8fruffowmbgr0p26lrp8o1v6&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
-
Keep running, mate, I’m enjoying this 👍
-
Good work Wolfking that you made it this far, enjoying the write ups. I really struggle to get any further than A Tempting Offer and there is just so much more still to go....
-
Digital Discord - Remember this is about these things called NOMACS. Yes yes, we know, we know.
The X Aspect - Open your eyes Nicholas........no other comments, more of the same. Sorry, can't do the last 30 seconds, skip
A New Beginning - Oh.....a riff. Again, more Six Degrees feels here but at least we have some energy. That 'give us both a chance' melody is really interesting. I like that.
1:09, you know what, there is strong King Diamond vibes here too. Instantly came to mind. I'm not minding this but again, for me it just lacks a bit of coherency. 2:00, more King Diamond. Nice little Erotomania nod there from Petrucci before of course......a quiet section. ::)
'music calmed your soul just like a drug, remember bug?' Ah, okay.
Oh shit, a heavier more traditional solo section from DT. Getting Voices vibes initially from this Petrucci solo. The heavy wah obviously. I like the key change into the solo here. He kind of copies the IT solo too here but I'm cool. Interested where this goes at the 5:00 mark.......nice groove here from MM. Love that change and lick at 6:00. Now I like where this has headed. I wonder what the shifts are here. Sounds like it's changing key each transition. The first time I've wanted to pick my guitar up during this album. 6:39, nice Gilmour nod. Cool ending, that's more like it.
The Road to Revolution - I'm liking this intro so far. Although it ends up going into that somewhat boring mundane territory we've seen across the first CD.
Yeah, again, that was a struggle. My opinion hasn't changed at all. Don't see any of these cracking the top 100 for me. Gift of Music, A Better Life, Three Days and A New Beginning the ones I'll probably at least revisit though. Maybe Chosen.
-
Thanks for reading. A lot to chew on but I'm happy you guys are at least reading along. Onto disc 2, and yes Tim, this is feeling like a marathon. :lol
-
2285 - Overture 2285? 1:14 - 1:27, now that's a fucking beautiful melody, wow. It's like that exact melody was what they were going for across the whole album, but failed. That small piece though is world class.
Moment of Betrayal - Ah okay, we're hearing a small variation of that melody at the start, so I'm interested. Oh shit, a metal riff, okay. Oh wait, 'several years ago, in a foreign town.' Wait wrong song?
Finally, a fucking chorus, like a strong, DT like amazing chorus, wow, I like that. 2:23, cool section this, James sounds on fire. Goes into that chorus too, this is a fucking great song so far, easily the best thing I've heard so far. Don't fuck it up boys!
3:22....About to Crash.....yes..yes, that's not too bad. That's fine. And a JP solo where the shred makes you put one of those tough guy faces on. it's short and doesn't overstay its welcome and goes back into the chorus. And a key change, go James go! What a top song. Now this.......this could easily get into the top 100.
-
Heaven's Cove - At least here we're getting some variation in a guitar intro as opposed to Jordan. That is kind of the variation needed IMO from time to time. Let's see where this one goes. Minor key too helps.
Uhh....we're stalling again, alright this is interesting. Kind of a cool riff JP has going underneath Labrie here. 3:12, not bad. I like this. Can we talk about MM's kick drum pattens here, very tasty. Again, fuck....so many ideas there just wasted for the sake of the concept or what they thought was needed.
Begin Again - Get some almost Goodnight Kiss JP here. kind of reminds me of Vai with his slides here, a bit different. Oh no, we're going back to that sappy major key stuff, aren't we. Maybe it's me. Although, the vocal melody here is quite good. Again, this is more fitting and in check with the broadway ideas they seemed to be going for with this album. They have executed this one better to what the vision was.
James sounds so fucking good at 2:27, love that. Going back into that melody at 2:43 is nice. That's a great ear worm type melody. See this is DT that's not forced and doing something more authentic. Wait......Do they know it's Christmas. Is that what that is at the end, interesting. Okay, I liked that. A JP solo wouldn't have hurt though in the back end.
Okay, that 4 song stretch at the start of disc 2 was easily the most interesting of the whole thing so far. Let's keep going.
The Path That Divides - Starts off fine. Although, it seems to fall back into that trap of complete randomness, but at 2:04.....hmm....let's see what happens here.
Alright, some energy and a nice simple groove. Were getting a slight TDS call back here. That's a nice key change at 2:54......
Going back into that vocal section I feel a little let down but we're heading into what seems to be a fight scene. Ehh....again, a lack of coherency here and another song with a climax for the sake of a climax. At least it was more interesting and had more energy than most of the similar things going on on CD 1.
Machine Chatter - Oh shit....that's right, this thing has something called NOMACS, how could I forget.
-
The Walking Shadow - Woah, what's James doing here, that's cool shit. Always loved hearing his screams. I can hear the almost King Diamond influence Tim was talking about.
My Last Farewell - This is pretty sub standard, and unremarkable IMO. Again, I'm drifting slightly with all these sections coming back randomly. James still sounds good though, like really good, just not feeling the melodies as much in this one. Again, the randomness. That 8VM rip before the vocals come back in is pretty funny.
God damn this is long.....
Losing Faythe - Ah shit......nah...not more of this please. Again, a missed opportunity for a real tasty TSCO style solo in this one, just the same formula with the outro. Eh....
-
Whispers on the Wind - Oh for fucks sake. Nope, skip.
Hymn of A Thousand Voices - This is nearly over right? Uh, this is terrible. Oh look, an attempted cinematic climax. Music has shown her the way, she lives today. :lol
Our New World - Harem Scarem style riff here, nice. The melodies here aren't the strongest but the feel is nice and the song somewhat breathes. That solo before the second verse is tasty as fuck. Melodies sound better the second time around.
Again, not sure what to think of JP's solo, the shredding here seems to work quite nicely though. The album needed a bit more lead work IMO. By the end of this song, I didn't mind this. Not a bad listen and something different.
Power Down - Just incase you forgot before we go.....NOMACS!!!!!
Astonishing - Brother can you hear me, oh shit!!! :lol
Is that an Octavarium melody I'm hearing again. So far this climax to the album is the least climatic climax of the whole thing! Let's give it til the end.
Ah fuck, the brother melody. What an awful, awful finish to the album. Just awful.
Well that was a chore. My view hasn't really changed. I think I made my general opinions on the whole thing during the listen. Appreciate the ambition of doing it, but yeah, to me they failed pretty damn hard. A couple of moments in the first act I will revisit and that run in act 2 plus Our New World is worth a revisit too. If anything, the discovery of Moment of Betrayal was worth the listen. That's a great song. Thanks for reading lads, I'm exhausted, god damn that took the whole morning!!
-
So...this is the review of my abridged version.. :lol
Gift of Music - This was the lead single right? Okay, shit......About to Crash re-reprise? Okay, I'm alright so far with this. Oh shit, I cringed hard at the 'people don't have time for music anymore' line. :facepalm: :lol Gabriel come save us lol. Hmmm...I actually forgot what the story was about.
2:20 - Alright, some JP action. I love that touch harmonic at 2:24, all class. This is surprisingly shreddy for this type of song, but it works okay. 2:40, we heard that bend in ATE. There's always something nice in a guitar solo and often underused when you play in a minor shape but bend the 3rd or 6th notes up a tone. So often based on the shape of the scale/mode it's usually the 2nd, 4th or 7th that are the most frequently bended notes, the others are underused but so effective when done in the way JP does it here. John Norum springs to mind to with his style. Anyway, I'm getting distracted, I'll be hear all day....unpause.
That 2:44 part is cool, seems out of context of the tune though. Oh wait, it goes into Metropolis, all is forgiven. 3:38 more Jordan 6D style. I'll take the comment out about it not fitting with the style as it didn't go back to a vocal section. As a stand alone piece I don't see it working, but I didn't mind that on a whole.
Lord Nafaryus - Ooh....all of a sudden we're into The Test That Stumped Them All territory. This is an abrupt way to enter the song and doesn't make sense to me. This is all over the shop, this......isn't very good. Post break.
Savior in the Square - Nice intro. Trying to put my finger on who JP is channeling here. Is it Satriani, is it Schon, even Eric Johnson vibes I get from the melodies. 1:30.......wait, Illumination Theory? Oh, what the fuck is going on here? Should have been an instrumental, that intro makes no sense with what's going on now. Again, it's just one thing after another different thing, this lacks complete coherency. Finally though we get a nice James melody, in his sweet spot used correctly.....oh wait....forget that, more random shit.
When Your Time Has Come - You can tell John and Jordan were the sole writers here, the whole thing I mean. Jordan is the obvious star. James would be too if he wasn't pulled and shoved in every which direction each minute or so.
The problem I have is that the ideas are all there, but so far it's like they've made the consciouss decision to spread as many different ideas across the album in some feat that that is what a rock opera consists of. They've used the idea of what they think it should be, and forgotten about the songs I think. Like they've lost focus on the songs and just focused on the elements they think it should be.
Ohh.....some wah Petrucci. Again, this is nice but you can tell with this section Petrucci isn't thinking about the stage production, not necessarily the song. This song is although pleasant enough and gives you some breathing room but then....again after the solo........dah duh!! Another dramatic change in direction just for the sake of it....uhh....and just ends fucking nowhere.
Act of Faythe - Again, I just feel with this intro they have thought too much about the whole grand design and concept/stage show instead of the album. Ahh....I'm getting over it already unfortunately. 3:23 :lol :rollin :lol :rollin Oh fuck!!?! :lol :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: I kew it, I shouldn't have eaten breakfast before this.
Three Days - More paino. I can see why Alessandro likes this album, seems to have everything he loves about JR. I do appreciate what James is doing on this album. While he was given the task of playing 58 characters, he's doing a good job and is having some great moments given the circumstances. That laugh at 1:55 is epic...wait was this the song Tim was referencing King Diamond, I can hear that. Again, this is just so random though, it's just hard to stay focused on it all.
Ravenskill - Okay, finally, a more minor based quieter vocal section. That's a lot of reverb on James' voice. Oh shit, they couldn't help themselves shifting mid-way. That main melody from Jordan though is wonderful. 1:22......Ah, I'm losing interest again. 2:11, alright I'm sitting up again, what have we got here........seems JP's riff ideas are all kinda similar too, again, perhaps that's the point. Nah, around 3:30 I'm drifting again.
3:53, I like that from James though. Oh, it's gone fucking quiet again ffs. And still, where the fuck is JP?! Oh look, another attempt of a climatic exit when it's not needed.
A Tempting Offer - More dramatic cinematic type of shit going on here. Cool keyboard patch and vibe there at 1:20 though. James again sounds nice in the next section but again, I'm drifting here. Next please.....
The X Aspect - Open your eyes Nicholas........no other comments, more of the same. Sorry, can't do the last 30 seconds, skip
A New Beginning - Oh.....a riff. Again, more Six Degrees feels here but at least we have some energy. That 'give us both a chance' melody is really interesting. I like that.
1:09, you know what, there is strong King Diamond vibes here too. Instantly came to mind. I'm not minding this but again, for me it just lacks a bit of coherency. 2:00, more King Diamond. Nice little Erotomania nod there from Petrucci before of course......a quiet section. ::)
'music calmed your soul just like a drug, remember bug?' Ah, okay.
Oh shit, a heavier more traditional solo section from DT. Getting Voices vibes initially from this Petrucci solo. The heavy wah obviously. I like the key change into the solo here. He kind of copies the IT solo too here but I'm cool. Interested where this goes at the 5:00 mark.......nice groove here from MM. Love that change and lick at 6:00. Now I like where this has headed. I wonder what the shifts are here. Sounds like it's changing key each transition. The first time I've wanted to pick my guitar up during this album. 6:39, nice Gilmour nod. Cool ending, that's more like it.
Moment of Betrayal - Ah okay, we're hearing a small variation of that melody at the start, so I'm interested. Oh shit, a metal riff, okay. Oh wait, 'several years ago, in a foreign town.' Wait wrong song?
Finally, a fucking chorus, like a strong, DT like amazing chorus, wow, I like that. 2:23, cool section this, James sounds on fire. Goes into that chorus too, this is a fucking great song so far, easily the best thing I've heard so far. Don't fuck it up boys!
3:22....About to Crash.....yes..yes, that's not too bad. That's fine. And a JP solo where the shred makes you put one of those tough guy faces on. it's short and doesn't overstay its welcome and goes back into the chorus. And a key change, go James go! What a top song. Now this.......this could easily get into the top 100.
Heaven's Cove - At least here we're getting some variation in a guitar intro as opposed to Jordan. That is kind of the variation needed IMO from time to time. Let's see where this one goes. Minor key too helps.
Uhh....we're stalling again, alright this is interesting. Kind of a cool riff JP has going underneath Labrie here. 3:12, not bad. I like this. Can we talk about MM's kick drum pattens here, very tasty. Again, fuck....so many ideas there just wasted for the sake of the concept or what they thought was needed.
The Path That Divides - Starts off fine. Although, it seems to fall back into that trap of complete randomness, but at 2:04.....hmm....let's see what happens here.
Alright, some energy and a nice simple groove. Were getting a slight TDS call back here. That's a nice key change at 2:54......
Going back into that vocal section I feel a little let down but we're heading into what seems to be a fight scene. Ehh....again, a lack of coherency here and another song with a climax for the sake of a climax. At least it was more interesting and had more energy than most of the similar things going on on CD 1.
The Walking Shadow - Woah, what's James doing here, that's cool shit. Always loved hearing his screams. I can hear the almost King Diamond influence Tim was talking about.
My Last Farewell - This is pretty sub standard, and unremarkable IMO. Again, I'm drifting slightly with all these sections coming back randomly. James still sounds good though, like really good, just not feeling the melodies as much in this one. Again, the randomness. That 8VM rip before the vocals come back in is pretty funny.
Hymn of A Thousand Voices - This is nearly over right? Uh, this is terrible. Oh look, an attempted cinematic climax. Music has shown her the way, she lives today. :lol
-
Screw you Tim. Too much to read. Lol
-
:lol Sorry Tim. Yeah, I didn't expect to write that much, just got in the mood.
-
Maybe I should do Winger's first album. ;D
-
I would LOVE to read that.
but come on, I tried to be not too much of a dick. I didn't think I was that harsh at all. :lol
-
I would LOVE to read that.
but come on, I tried to be not too much of a dick. I didn't think I was that harsh at all. :lol
I can't promise to not be a dick. :lol
-
I would LOVE to read that.
but come on, I tried to be not too much of a dick. I didn't think I was that harsh at all. :lol
I can't promise to not be a dick. :lol
It would be a disappointing read if you weren't being a dick. :lol
-
Just got done reading Wolfie’s song by song review, and I have to say that you have highlighted the major problem with TA….there a lot of nice “bits” that end up just changing direction for no apparent reason. It’s maddening because you feel like if some of these wonderful bits were developed, there would be some great SONGS. But everything was sacrificed for the sake of the narrative. And ironically, it make the entire album feel cohesion.
The one song I will disagree on though is A Life Left Behind. That is my favorite song from the entire album, and the best chorus from the entire album.
-
Just got done reading Wolfie’s song by song review, and I have to say that you have highlighted the major problem with TA….there a lot of nice “bits” that end up just changing direction for no apparent reason. It’s maddening because you feel like if some of these wonderful bits were developed, there would be some great SONGS. But everything was sacrificed for the sake of the narrative. And ironically, it make the entire album feel cohesion.
The one song I will disagree on though is A Life Left Behind. That is my favorite song from the entire album, and the best chorus from the entire album.
Yep, exactly.
Interesting, maybe I'll revisit that track too then mate.
-
I meant to say “less cohesive” but you got the point. Stupid typos…
-
but come on, I tried to be not too much of a dick. I didn't think I was that harsh at all. :lol
As someone who loves The Astonishing, I don't think you were harsh on it at all. Also, I think I understand one thing that makes me enjoy the album after having read all your thoughts, too, and that's the amount of ideas they bring to this album. I can definitely understand being frustrated that the ideas aren't developed enough or that the songs seem to go in random directions, but reading through this I realize that I tend to love songs that are just rapid-fire idea after idea after idea. As a non-DT example, I think this also explains for me why I love Haken's song Messiah Complex and why a few others don't care much for it.
-
Yes, the one great thing about The Astonishing is all the wonderful musical ideas. The problem becomes apparent almost immediately though. None of the ideas are allowed to breathe. Which would indicate that the album needed to be roughly an hour longer to flesh out all the ideas that were brought to the table.
However, we have the other major problem. A lot of the narrative is over explained. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the lyrics are all written like they were directed to an 8 year old. A lot of them are just so juvenile or just plain bad.
You take out the stupid Nomac tracks (or majorly cut them down) and trim the fat in the lyrics department and you are left with an album that's only an hour and a half long at best.
-
I meant to say “less cohesive” but you got the point. Stupid typos…
Yeah I figured that mate. :tup
but come on, I tried to be not too much of a dick. I didn't think I was that harsh at all. :lol
As someone who loves The Astonishing, I don't think you were harsh on it at all. Also, I think I understand one thing that makes me enjoy the album after having read all your thoughts, too, and that's the amount of ideas they bring to this album. I can definitely understand being frustrated that the ideas aren't developed enough or that the songs seem to go in random directions, but reading through this I realize that I tend to love songs that are just rapid-fire idea after idea after idea. As a non-DT example, I think this also explains for me why I love Haken's song Messiah Complex and why a few others don't care much for it.
Thank you. I could have been worse but didn't want it to come off as a troll fest against it. I'm glad you got something out of it though.
Yes, the one great thing about The Astonishing is all the wonderful musical ideas. The problem becomes apparent almost immediately though. None of the ideas are allowed to breathe. Which would indicate that the album needed to be roughly an hour longer to flesh out all the ideas that were brought to the table.
However, we have the other major problem. A lot of the narrative is over explained. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the lyrics are all written like they were directed to an 8 year old. A lot of them are just so juvenile or just plain bad.
You take out the stupid Nomac tracks (or majorly cut them down) and trim the fat in the lyrics department and you are left with an album that's only an hour and a half long at best.
Exactly, nothing breathes yet the whole thing is so drawn out and long. As I did point out, there are quite a few cringe moments with these lyrics.
-
What’s funny is that some of the most cringy moments are the ones that stick in my head. But for all the wrong reasons. It’s like, I don’t remember it because it gives me musical goosebumps, I remember it like I remember a really stupid moment from a film on Mystery Science Theater 3000.
Just going through my top 100 made me realize how “out of place” some parts seem. Like the “We have come to hear him sing…” and “…please don’t stop on my account…”. The lyrics themselves are so conversational, but they are delivered in an overly sinister way so that it renders them almost comical.
-
What’s funny is that some of the most cringy moments are the ones that stick in my head. But for all the wrong reasons. It’s like, I don’t remember it because it gives me musical goosebumps, I remember it like I remember a really stupid moment from a film on Mystery Science Theater 3000.
Just going through my top 100 made me realize how “out of place” some parts seem. Like the “We have come to hear him sing…” and “…please don’t stop on my account…”. The lyrics themselves are so conversational, but they are delivered in an overly sinister way so that it renders them almost comical.
Almost like a Disney cartoon villain.
-
Wolfking, I really enjoyed your song by song breakdown and although I love The Astonishing, I think your overall point is one of my struggles as well. I just love the whole concept, red the novell twice, 've seen many video's on this and the more you're in, the better it digests (at least to me).
But I do also believe lyrics are childish, less ideas but more expended and rip off the nomacs would have done great to the outcome.
But it looked like you really gave it a fresh new chance and I enjoyed your ride...
-
How good is 2:41 and I love how he is such an avid user of the bridge and neck pickups so frequently, that change in tone at 2:43, switching from the neck to the bridge is so good.
Just reading through your posts. It's amazing you picked up the, uh, pickup change there. I've just listened three or four times to try to hear it. The part at 2:43 almost sounded creamier to me which is odd for a bridge pickup. Will have to listen at a louder volume later when it isn't 0641 and partner isn't asleep :biggrin:
-
Kade, that was a very fair and entertaining set of writeups. Tipping me hat.
And thank you for the brilliant John Norum reference.
-
Yes, the one great thing about The Astonishing is all the wonderful musical ideas. The problem becomes apparent almost immediately though. None of the ideas are allowed to breathe. Which would indicate that the album needed to be roughly an hour longer to flesh out all the ideas that were brought to the table.
However, we have the other major problem. A lot of the narrative is over explained. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the lyrics are all written like they were directed to an 8 year old. A lot of them are just so juvenile or just plain bad.
You take out the stupid Nomac tracks (or majorly cut them down) and trim the fat in the lyrics department and you are left with an album that's only an hour and a half long at best.
Every flaw stems back to wanting to be a musical without a musical's resources. Lacking visuals, JP - who is generally a fair lyricist with deep moments, but certainly no Pete Townshend - had to be quite didactict, ironically breaking one of the major musical theatre rules: show, don't tell.
-
Wolfking, I really enjoyed your song by song breakdown and although I love The Astonishing, I think your overall point is one of my struggles as well. I just love the whole concept, red the novell twice, 've seen many video's on this and the more you're in, the better it digests (at least to me).
But I do also believe lyrics are childish, less ideas but more expended and rip off the nomacs would have done great to the outcome.
But it looked like you really gave it a fresh new chance and I enjoyed your ride...
Thanks mate, Im glad there are fans that really enjoy it.
-
Kade, that was a very fair and entertaining set of writeups. Tipping me hat.
And thank you for the brilliant John Norum reference.
Thanks Alessandro, glad you enjoyed it. Sorry I trailed off on Petrucci as it went on, it was getting tough. You probably wanted more around him and not just the solos. Honestly, I didn't notice a lot on a whole to comment on, its certainly a James and Jordan album.
For some reason I've never gotten that much into Norum but I do like his style a lot, especially the technique I mentioned.
-
How good is 2:41 and I love how he is such an avid user of the bridge and neck pickups so frequently, that change in tone at 2:43, switching from the neck to the bridge is so good.
Just reading through your posts. It's amazing you picked up the, uh, pickup change there. I've just listened three or four times to try to hear it. The part at 2:43 almost sounded creamier to me which is odd for a bridge pickup. Will have to listen at a louder volume later when it isn't 0641 and partner isn't asleep :biggrin:
I just checked again, definitely the note at 2:43 when the tempo changes, you hear that distinct change in tone. The more I listen I know what you mean but Petrucci is a player that switches between pickups so often I've never seen any other player use the switch in pickups as much as he does. Check this link of a live version of Glassgow Kiss.
https://youtu.be/e2UrrP11MFs?si=-oZY6gG_07KXZr8Z
Watch from the 3 minute mark. The amount of times he changes pickups to accentuate a change in tone through the solo is incredible to me.
-
Nice one, thank you, will check that out. Always love reading your guitar-playing insights.
-
That version of GK has become one of my all time fav Peteucci moments.
-
I just checked again, definitely the note at 2:43 when the tempo changes, you hear that distinct change in tone. The more I listen I know what you mean but Petrucci is a player that switches between pickups so often I've never seen any other player use the switch in pickups as much as he does.
wolfking is DTF's wolf with the ears of an owl...
-
Best thing I read in months–thanks Kade!
-
Most people seem to agree that James gives a great performance on this album. Even if they don't like it very much. I am the opposite. I think this is his most breathy, whispery performance ever and that's the side of his vocals I like the least. I realize he is trying to portray characters but it doesn't work for me.
I've sat through this album probably 10 times. I have tried SO hard to connect with it. Never on headphones though so maybe in the spirit of renewed attempts, I'll give it one final go with the headphones.
-
The problem I have is that the ideas are all there, but so far it's like they've made the conscious decision to spread as many different ideas across the album in some feat that that is what a rock opera consists of. They've used the idea of what they think it should be, and forgotten about the songs I think. Like they've lost focus on the songs and just focused on the elements they think it should be.
This is very well stated. You've articulated it in a way that I just didn't have the energy to do other than "this album is tripe".
the hovering sojourn - yeah cool
:clap:
Our New World - Harem Scarem style riff here, nice.
Maybe that's why this is my favorite song of the album!!
Astonishing - Brother can you hear me, oh shit!!! :lol
Ah fuck, the brother melody. What an awful, awful finish to the album. Just awful.
And now you know why I wanted to walk out of the concert when this - THIS - was the encore. I stuck around hoping/praying they might play SOMETHING more like UAGM, or TSCO, or any 6-8 minute song. Fuck, I'd have even taken Just Let Me Breathe! Anything but to end the night having done JUST this album. When they approached the front of the stage for their group waves and bow, I bolted in disgust. I've never hated a concert so much in my life.
-
But everything was sacrificed for the sake of the narrative. And ironically, it make the entire album feel cohesion.
I agree, but also hope you meant to say it *lacked* cohesion? <ok, phew - just read your correction>
Reflecting back on Kade's review, I wonder if all the NOMAC/seque tracks were inserted so that JP/JR/JM could take a moment to switch instruments (JP/JM) for the key changes, and/or JR to bring up a new program sequence for his instruments?? Like they were planning all along in the studio how big/grand of a production they were going to make it, and then completely forgot about writing a decent album/decent music (as Kade suggested at one point).
However, we have the other major problem. A lot of the narrative is over explained. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the lyrics are all written like they were directed to an 8 year old. A lot of them are just so juvenile or just plain bad.
My biggest beef about this from the album right from the moment I was reading the lyrics in the booklet. I love concept albums, but don't need the concept told to me like a Kindergarten teacher reads a Dr. Suess book to a 4-year old
Most people seem to agree that James gives a great performance on this album. Even if they don't like it very much. I am the opposite. I think this is his most breathy, whispery performance ever and that's the side of his vocals I like the least. I realize he is trying to portray characters but it doesn't work for me.
I've sat through this album probably 10 times. I have tried SO hard to connect with it. Never on headphones though so maybe in the spirit of renewed attempts, I'll give it one final go with the headphones.
I'm "ditto" to all of this. I reckon you'll just get a more dedicated and focused reason to dislike it.
-
This is my abridged version of your review of the abridged version
So...this is the review of my abridged version.. :lol
Gift of Music - This was the lead single right? :facepalm: :lol As a stand alone piece I don't see it working, but I didn't mind that on a whole.
Lord Nafaryus - this......isn't very good.
Savior in the Square - Oh, what the fuck is going on here?
When Your Time Has Come - James pulled and shoved in every which direction each minute or so....uhh....and just ends fucking nowhere.
Act of Faythe Oh fuck!!?! :lol :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: I knew it, I shouldn't have eaten breakfast before this.
Three Days - this is just so random though, it's just hard to stay focused on it all.
Ravenskill - Oh, it's gone fucking quiet again ffs. And still, where the fuck is JP?! Oh look, another attempt of a climatic exit when it's not needed.
A Tempting Offer - I'm drifting here. Next please.....
The X Aspect - Sorry, can't do the last 30 seconds, skip
A New Beginning - 'music calmed your soul just like a drug, remember bug?' Ah, okay. 6:39, nice Gilmour nod. Cool ending, that's more like it.
Moment of Betrayal - Finally, a fucking chorus,
Heaven's Cove - Uhh....we're stalling again, Again, fuck....so many ideas there just wasted for the sake of the concept or what they thought was needed.
The Path That Divides - At least it was more interesting and had more energy than most of the similar things going on on CD 1.
The Walking Shadow - I can hear the almost King Diamond influence Tim was talking about.
My Last Farewell - This is pretty sub standard, and unremarkable IMO.
Hymn of A Thousand Voices - This is nearly over right? Uh, this is terrible. Oh look, an attempted cinematic climax. Music has shown her the way, she lives today. :lol
-
7 Hours of The Astonishing!?!? I'd rather dry shave RJ's balls with a rusty blade.
Again?
-
Yes, the one great thing about The Astonishing is all the wonderful musical ideas. The problem becomes apparent almost immediately though. None of the ideas are allowed to breathe. Which would indicate that the album needed to be roughly an hour longer to flesh out all the ideas that were brought to the table.
I'm going to take that idea that you and Kade are discussing and state it slightly differently. It's less that there are a ton of different ideas and more that there are a ton of variations on a much smaller number of ideas, AND they often don't take the time to let those breathe. A good example to me is the really tasty riff in Ravenskill. One of the best riffs on the entire album, and I know Kev is very fond of it as well. But it's gone in less than 30 seconds before they are on to something else! JP joking about having to bring it back on TA2 aside, man I wish they had spent more time with that. But it isn't completely gone either. It's actually just a very clever variation of the soft piano theme that Jordan introduces during the beginning of the song. And it is also cleverly modified and reused as the vocal melody when Arhys is speaking later in the song. There's a lot of that on the album where there is clearly very clever writing and use of themes in really cool ways. But whether that clever, creative writing ultimately translates into being good writing is up for debate, and I get why a good many may fall on the latter rather than the former. Even though I mostly fall on the former, the fact that there are still plenty of moments like this Ravenskill riff that make me scream, "wait! Don't change it yet! Just stay right there for a few minutes because this is really really cool!" shows that maybe there is something to the notion that they were perhaps too ambitious with the writing at times, and we might have gotten a more...accessible, more generally liked album if some things were reigned in and they had another creative voice in the mix after John and Jordan did the first pass at the writing.
-
^ That is very true regarding the "second act". If you notice, disc one has a perfect balance of themes - recurring or not - because it's the phase featuring what in musical theatre jargon are known as "I am" and "I want" songs, i.e. where characters and their motivations are introduced and lead to intersection. The second disc seems to be incapable to fully develope its many themes and ideas for two reasons, IMO: 1) It's rushed, probably with live show timing in mind and generally because it's much easier to establish a plot than leading it to an effective and consistent conclusion, 2) "second acts" are usually the dynamic/clash phase of a show, in which the composer almost always needs collective singing numbers in order to joust both the plot and the musical themes; the singer in this case - excellent in his many interpretations - can only sing one character at the time, and this limitation greatly influences songwriting and the management of themes in such a dynamic phase. I hope I've managed to make a bit of sense, because I'm brutally synthetising concepts deserving longer and clearer prose.
-
Kade, I actually read everything you wrote, I think. I too have struggled with TA. I tried it a few times and it just didn't speak to me and I share a lot of your criticisms and such.
That said, you've inspired me to want to try to and give it a good relisten too. However, I have no idea when I'm going to have the 45 hours free to do it.
-
This is what my second listen to The Astonishing looked like Kade ;D
Moment of Betrayal - Ah okay, we're hearing a small variation of that melody at the start, so I'm interested. Oh shit, a metal riff, okay. Oh wait, 'several years ago, in a foreign town.' Wait wrong song?
Finally, a fucking chorus, like a strong, DT like amazing chorus, wow, I like that. 2:23, cool section this, James sounds on fire. Goes into that chorus too, this is a fucking great song so far, easily the best thing I've heard so far. Don't fuck it up boys!
-
Here's the real abridged version...
More paino.
Loved it Kade, great read.
-
Here's the real abridged version...
More paino.
Loved it Kade, great read.
Yes, the number 1 criticism of The Astonshing - too much paino
-
Wolfking's impressions and observations reminded me of an experience I had here at DTF a couple of years ago.
I decided to listen to BTBAM's discography and make comments (Wolfking is not a fan of TA and I am not a fan of BTBAM, hence the similarity). However, unlike Wolfking's, my impressions were not well received and I was discouraged from continuing. :lol
I didn't continue.
-
Wolfking's impressions and observations reminded me of an experience I had here at DTF a couple of years ago.
I decided to listen to BTBAM's discography and make comments (Wolfking is not a fan of TA and I am not a fan of BTBAM, hence the similarity). However, unlike Wolfking's, my impressions were not well received and I was discouraged from continuing. :lol
I didn't continue.
You're not alone with this. Apart from a couple isolated songs here and there, my only experience with BTBAM was trying to listen to Coma Ecliptic in full back when it was released. I liked the instrumentation, but boy was it hard to get through it, specially with the vocals. Tried two different times and I still could not finish the whole album (and it's a lot shorter than TA). Sometimes, some music is just not for us. I have the same experience whenever I try listening to anything with John Arch on vocals. It's not possible.
-
Wolfking's impressions and observations reminded me of an experience I had here at DTF a couple of years ago.
I decided to listen to BTBAM's discography and make comments (Wolfking is not a fan of TA and I am not a fan of BTBAM, hence the similarity). However, unlike Wolfking's, my impressions were not well received and I was discouraged from continuing. :lol
I didn't continue.
You're not alone with this. Apart from a couple isolated songs here and there, my only experience with BTBAM was trying to listen to Coma Ecliptic in full back when it was released. I liked the instrumentation, but boy was it hard to get through it, specially with the vocals. Tried two different times and I still could not finish the whole album (and it's a lot shorter than TA). Sometimes, some music is just not for us. I have the same experience whenever I try listening to anything with John Arch on vocals. It's not possible.
I understand. John Arch is complicated :lol
-
Wolfking's impressions and observations reminded me of an experience I had here at DTF a couple of years ago.
I decided to listen to BTBAM's discography and make comments (Wolfking is not a fan of TA and I am not a fan of BTBAM, hence the similarity). However, unlike Wolfking's, my impressions were not well received and I was discouraged from continuing. :lol
I didn't continue.
You're not alone with this. Apart from a couple isolated songs here and there, my only experience with BTBAM was trying to listen to Coma Ecliptic in full back when it was released. I liked the instrumentation, but boy was it hard to get through it, specially with the vocals. Tried two different times and I still could not finish the whole album (and it's a lot shorter than TA). Sometimes, some music is just not for us. I have the same experience whenever I try listening to anything with John Arch on vocals. It's not possible.
I understand. John Arch is complicated :lol
John Arch is amazing!
-
I'm so grateful at the respect you have all shown me to put the time in and read my live impressions. I'm out at the moment but will follow up comments later when I'm home on my laptop.
-
Best thing I read in months–thanks Kade!
Thanks James, glad you enjoyed it! :D
-
The problem I have is that the ideas are all there, but so far it's like they've made the conscious decision to spread as many different ideas across the album in some feat that that is what a rock opera consists of. They've used the idea of what they think it should be, and forgotten about the songs I think. Like they've lost focus on the songs and just focused on the elements they think it should be.
This is very well stated. You've articulated it in a way that I just didn't have the energy to do other than "this album is tripe".
the hovering sojourn - yeah cool
:clap:
Our New World - Harem Scarem style riff here, nice.
Maybe that's why this is my favorite song of the album!!
Astonishing - Brother can you hear me, oh shit!!! :lol
Ah fuck, the brother melody. What an awful, awful finish to the album. Just awful.
And now you know why I wanted to walk out of the concert when this - THIS - was the encore. I stuck around hoping/praying they might play SOMETHING more like UAGM, or TSCO, or any 6-8 minute song. Fuck, I'd have even taken Just Let Me Breathe! Anything but to end the night having done JUST this album. When they approached the front of the stage for their group waves and bow, I bolted in disgust. I've never hated a concert so much in my life.
Oh boy......I would imagine how livid you would have been after this concert. For that to be the closing of a concert....jeez. I mean, even just the band playing this whole thing and nothing else is certainly a ballsy feat but that certainly would have been such a disappointing experience from an all time favorite band.
Harem Scarem instantly came to mind with that song. Definitely something refreshing and different for the band in general.
Those thoughts in your first quote just kept coming back to me running through that first disc. I'm glad I was able to articulate it that others can relate. Just a total swing and a miss. Or, they had the gameplan but just didn't execute.
Glad someone picked up on the Sojourn joke there. ;D
-
Kade, I actually read everything you wrote, I think. I too have struggled with TA. I tried it a few times and it just didn't speak to me and I share a lot of your criticisms and such.
That said, you've inspired me to want to try to and give it a good relisten too. However, I have no idea when I'm going to have the 45 hours free to do it.
Thanks man. Yeah, it's a tough slog and feels so much longer than it actually is. I was hoping to have more appreciation of it this time around but apart from a couple of brief moments, my initial reactions and thoughts on the album still stand.
-
This is what my second listen to The Astonishing looked like Kade ;D
Moment of Betrayal - Ah okay, we're hearing a small variation of that melody at the start, so I'm interested. Oh shit, a metal riff, okay. Oh wait, 'several years ago, in a foreign town.' Wait wrong song?
Finally, a fucking chorus, like a strong, DT like amazing chorus, wow, I like that. 2:23, cool section this, James sounds on fire. Goes into that chorus too, this is a fucking great song so far, easily the best thing I've heard so far. Don't fuck it up boys!
What a much better second listen. :lol
-
Here's the real abridged version...
More paino.
Loved it Kade, great read.
Thanks Luke. Yeah, there's a lot of fucking piano. :lol
-
The problem I have is that the ideas are all there, but so far it's like they've made the conscious decision to spread as many different ideas across the album in some feat that that is what a rock opera consists of. They've used the idea of what they think it should be, and forgotten about the songs I think. Like they've lost focus on the songs and just focused on the elements they think it should be.
This is very well stated. You've articulated it in a way that I just didn't have the energy to do other than "this album is tripe".
the hovering sojourn - yeah cool
:clap:
Our New World - Harem Scarem style riff here, nice.
Maybe that's why this is my favorite song of the album!!
Astonishing - Brother can you hear me, oh shit!!! :lol
Ah fuck, the brother melody. What an awful, awful finish to the album. Just awful.
And now you know why I wanted to walk out of the concert when this - THIS - was the encore. I stuck around hoping/praying they might play SOMETHING more like UAGM, or TSCO, or any 6-8 minute song. Fuck, I'd have even taken Just Let Me Breathe!
That's how you know an album is bad, when you want to hear Just Let Me Breathe as a palate cleanser.
-
Here's the real abridged version...
More paino.
Loved it Kade, great read.
Thanks Luke. Yeah, there's a lot of fucking piano. :lol
I know, but even more paino, right?
-
:rollin :rollin
I missed the typo the first and second go around.
Yes Luke... that is the perfect review.
-
:rollin :rollin
I missed the typo the first and second go around.
Yes Luke... that is the perfect review.
:lol
It's even more perfect because he's aussie!
-
Here's the real abridged version...
More paino.
Loved it Kade, great read.
Thanks Luke. Yeah, there's a lot of fucking piano. :lol
I know, but even more paino, right?
Oh fuck, I missed that too! How subliminally relevant! :lol
-
I followed through last night. I put the headphones on with a firm resolve to listen from start to finish. I made it all the way until maybe song 7 and then I became antsy. Absolutely nothing grabbed, wowed me or had me excited for what was next. Then I began listening to the beginning of the next few songs and getting a minute or two into each before hitting the skip button. 3/4 of the way through I gave up. It is what it is. This album will never work for me.
-
I surprised myself that 4 songs from TA made my top 100, but here we are!
-
its certainly a James and Jordan album.
Again, why I love it so.
I think it's a beautiful performance by James. It shows both his strengths as a vocalist to perfection - the pure, angelic sound of his natural voice (when he's not pushing, using a gravely effect, or singing as Nefaryus) and the depth of sensitivity and emotional intelligence that he brings to a performance.
And I don't mind all the piano. I enjoy all of Jordan's playing but the moments when he goes into classical pianist mode are always a treat. In TA, the piano is almost a character in the music itself, like a musical narrator. Compositionally, it's the common thread that weaves it all together.
Story aside (because I can't disagree with some of the criticisms of the storytelling, which reflect why it drags sometimes and has nothing to do with the music), this is not an album you'd reach for when you want to rock out. This is more of an introspective piece. At the very least it sets a nice atmosphere in the car or in the house. At the very most it's a one of a kind musical journey.
-
its certainly a James and Jordan album.
Again, why I love it so.
I think it's a beautiful performance by James. It shows both his strengths as a vocalist to perfection - the pure, angelic sound of his natural voice (when he's not pushing, using a gravely effect, or singing as Nefaryus) and the depth of sensitivity and emotional intelligence that he brings to a performance.
And I don't mind all the piano. I enjoy all of Jordan's playing but the moments when he goes into classical pianist mode are always a treat. In TA, the piano is almost a character in the music itself, like a musical narrator. Compositionally, it's the common thread that weaves it all together.
Yeah, but what about all that paino.
Story aside (because I can't disagree with some of the criticisms of the storytelling, which reflect why it drags sometimes and has nothing to do with the music), this is not an album you'd reach for when you want to rock out. This is more of an introspective piece. At the very least it sets a nice atmosphere in the car or in the house. At the very most it's a one of a kind musical journey.
Spot on. It's the kind of album for when you're in a good mood, but feel the need to rage on something. Anything.
-
Kade,
I've been busy and haven't had a chance to respond. I read through your thoughts on my phone as you were posting them and really enjoyed reading it. As Ale says, you could take over the Scenes From My Memory thread! :) I'll admit, your concerns and dislikes are very similar to mine only you're quite a bit more offended by it. :lol Yet, I've got a few more.
I can't stand military march music. It's a personal quirk, and sets my teeth on edge...it actually makes me edgy and a little angry. You can imagine how I struggle with TA since Arys (or however they spell it) Theme is plastered all over the place. I'm a little salty just typing this...
The other thing is James's breathy singing is actually really, really bad in my opinion. I've got some personal opinions about him doing it that I won't share. Bosky would ban me if I did. Usually, he keeps it to brief moments where he's trying to project a specific vibe and I can ignore it and even appreciate what he's doing. But, and you know there would be a but, his portrayal of Faythe is off the charts for me. I've actually banished Act of Faythe from my...well, my music player. :lol If I could gouge it out of the CD without damaging the rest of the CD, I would. In my DT top 100 comparison, it came in dead last for DT's entire catalog...think of that, I'd actually rather listen to Space-Dyed Vest than it.
All that being said, 13 songs from TA made it to my top 100 (which comes out to be 32.4% of the record). All but one are in the bottom 50 though, and one is actually number 100. It's safe to say, I don't dislike TA but it's not a favorite. As crystalstars17 points out, it's makes for pleasant background music in the house (once you delete Act of Faythe) but that's about as far as it goes.
Edit: Deleted for embarrassment at my high handed grouchy old morning persona.
-
The other thing is James's breathy singing is actually really, really bad in my opinion. I've got some personal opinions about him doing it that I won't share. Bosky would ban me if I did. Usually, he keeps it to brief moments where he's trying to project a specific vibe and I can ignore it and even appreciate what he's doing. But, and you know there would be a but, his portrayal of Faythe is off the charts for me. I've actually banished Act of Faythe from my...well, my music player. :lol If I could gouge it out of the CD without damaging the rest of the CD, I would. In my DT top 100 comparison, it came in dead last for DT's entire catalog...think of that, I'd actually rather listen to Space-Dyed Vest than it.
My impression was always thatthe 'breathiness' he puts into his delivery is the way he tries to differentiate between characters?? I'm mostly guessing, as I never followed the lyric sheet after the first read-thru on my day of purchase, and I would never again listen closely enough to determine if that's the case.
All that being said, 13 songs from TA made it to my top 100
Remove the "1", and this is where I'm at.
-
So I've been revisiting a lot of TA for the countdown, and a couple thoughts:
- I tend to agree on the breathiness comment, but as a general proposition, I think James is the clear highlight of this record. He sings his balls off on this record, and ought to be proud of his work.
- It's got so many great moments, but it's SO hard to string together a full listen. Even the "songs" (in quotes for a reason) I like are really passages that sound cool melded together and often (intrusively) interspersed with sound effects. This is a concept album, for sure, but it's not a concept in the way that, say, Misplaced Childhood or The Lamb Lies Down is. I can - and DO! - put on TLLDOB to listen to the title track, or Carpet Crawlers, or Chamber of 32 Doors. And no, the lyrics make no sense out of context (they don't make much sense in context either, to be honest) but the SONGS are solid. I wish there were more SONGS on TA.
- One good thing: the music of DT has gotten noticeably DENSER (as has most modern music) in the years since Mike P. left and TA is a remarkable and refreshing break from that. The music has space, and breathes, like the parts of the early catalogue I like best.
Unfortunately, I respect the work, I admire the work, but it will always be a curiosity to me, because I'd much rather put on SDOIT and listen to 90 minutes of unabated music I can lose myself in, as opposed to what emtee said, which I agree with, where I get "antsy" and ready to move on.
-
- It's got so many great moments, but it's SO hard to string together a full listen. Even the "songs" (in quotes for a reason) I like are really passages that sound cool melded together and often (intrusively) interspersed with sound effects. This is a concept album, for sure, but it's not a concept in the way that, say, Misplaced Childhood or The Lamb Lies Down is. I can - and DO! - put on TLLDOB to listen to the title track, or Carpet Crawlers, or Chamber of 32 Doors. And no, the lyrics make no sense out of context (they don't make much sense in context either, to be honest) but the SONGS are solid. I wish there were more SONGS on TA.
...
Unfortunately, I respect the work, I admire the work, but it will always be a curiosity to me, because I'd much rather put on SDOIT and listen to 90 minutes of unabated music I can lose myself in, as opposed to what emtee said, which I agree with, where I get "antsy" and ready to move on.
You (and others) might disagree with this take, but I feel some of those things you mention relative to SFAM. And SFAM is my second favorite DT album of all time, right behind Six Degrees. I love listening to the entire thing, but it's hard to find the time to do that and immerse myself in the album. But even though I love it, it's hard for me to listen to most of the songs out of context. There are a few that I feel are strong songs all on their own. But (and here's the controversial part) I would rank MOST of the individual songs on the album pretty low in the DT catalog as songs in their own right. They aren't bad. But, as is the case with most concept albums for me, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. The parts are good. But the total product is out of this world fantastic. Just as you say about TA that you wish there were more strong individual SONGS, I wish that were true of SFAM. But it does have a couple of absolute bangers and a couple more that are pretty good, and the whole product is just so good that I don't mind the album as a whole not having more individual songs that I want to revisit.
-
I followed through last night. I put the headphones on with a firm resolve to listen from start to finish. I made it all the way until maybe song 7 and then I became antsy. Absolutely nothing grabbed, wowed me or had me excited for what was next. Then I began listening to the beginning of the next few songs and getting a minute or two into each before hitting the skip button. 3/4 of the way through I gave up. It is what it is. This album will never work for me.
You've pretty much outlined my exact feelings and moments throughout the album where I was getting impatient or tuning out, except I had to hold myself back from the skipping part.
-
Kade,
I've been busy and haven't had a chance to respond. I read through your thoughts on my phone as you were posting them and really enjoyed reading it. As Ale says, you could take over the Scenes From My Memory thread! :) I'll admit, your concerns and dislikes are very similar to mine only you're quite a bit more offended by it. :lol Yet, I've got a few more.
I can't stand military march music. It's a personal quirk, and sets my teeth on edge...it actually makes me edgy and a little angry. You can imagine how I struggle with TA since Arys (or however they spell it) Theme is plastered all over the place. I'm a little salty just typing this...
The other thing is James's breathy singing is actually really, really bad in my opinion. I've got some personal opinions about him doing it that I won't share. Bosky would ban me if I did. Usually, he keeps it to brief moments where he's trying to project a specific vibe and I can ignore it and even appreciate what he's doing. But, and you know there would be a but, his portrayal of Faythe is off the charts for me. I've actually banished Act of Faythe from my...well, my music player. :lol If I could gouge it out of the CD without damaging the rest of the CD, I would. In my DT top 100 comparison, it came in dead last for DT's entire catalog...think of that, I'd actually rather listen to Space-Dyed Vest than it.
All that being said, 13 songs from TA made it to my top 100 (which comes out to be 32.4% of the record). All but one are in the bottom 50 though, and one is actually number 100. It's safe to say, I don't dislike TA but it's not a favorite. As crystalstars17 points out, it's makes for pleasant background music in the house (once you delete Act of Faythe) but that's about as far as it goes.
Edit: Deleted for embarrassment at my high handed grouchy old morning persona.
Thanks Gregg and love your passion here too. I get where people are coming from with James' breathy 'trying to be sexy' voice as my misses calls it (as it frustrates her too when she hears it. "Why the fuck does he sing like that, trying be sexy or some shit?!' :lol). But I thought on the album his performance overall overshadows that BUT I'll definitely have to go back to that song and listen with your thoughts in mind.
Reading that, I was then surprised 13 songs made the cut. Shows the potential it had but in so many ways as already stated, they missed the mark.
-
- It's got so many great moments, but it's SO hard to string together a full listen. Even the "songs" (in quotes for a reason) I like are really passages that sound cool melded together and often (intrusively) interspersed with sound effects. This is a concept album, for sure, but it's not a concept in the way that, say, Misplaced Childhood or The Lamb Lies Down is. I can - and DO! - put on TLLDOB to listen to the title track, or Carpet Crawlers, or Chamber of 32 Doors. And no, the lyrics make no sense out of context (they don't make much sense in context either, to be honest) but the SONGS are solid. I wish there were more SONGS on TA.
...
Unfortunately, I respect the work, I admire the work, but it will always be a curiosity to me, because I'd much rather put on SDOIT and listen to 90 minutes of unabated music I can lose myself in, as opposed to what emtee said, which I agree with, where I get "antsy" and ready to move on.
You (and others) might disagree with this take, but I feel some of those things you mention relative to SFAM. And SFAM is my second favorite DT album of all time, right behind Six Degrees. I love listening to the entire thing, but it's hard to find the time to do that and immerse myself in the album. But even though I love it, it's hard for me to listen to most of the songs out of context. There are a few that I feel are strong songs all on their own. But (and here's the controversial part) I would rank MOST of the individual songs on the album pretty low in the DT catalog as songs in their own right. They aren't bad. But, as is the case with most concept albums for me, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. The parts are good. But the total product is out of this world fantastic. Just as you say about TA that you wish there were more strong individual SONGS, I wish that were true of SFAM. But it does have a couple of absolute bangers and a couple more that are pretty good, and the whole product is just so good that I don't mind the album as a whole not having more individual songs that I want to revisit.
This actually makes a lot of sense in regards to SFAM thinking about it, but I personally have never had an issue listening to anything in isolation. But again, thinking about it, I think this is fair.
In comparison with TA, SFAM gets that perfect balance of the concept on a whole plus great songs that for the most part are memorable and can stand alone. SFAM you can feel is an organic natural evolvement to the finished product, TA is simply forced and constantly changed and manipulated to try and replicate a vision and a thinking of what it should, or was supposed to be.
-
- It's got so many great moments, but it's SO hard to string together a full listen. Even the "songs" (in quotes for a reason) I like are really passages that sound cool melded together and often (intrusively) interspersed with sound effects. This is a concept album, for sure, but it's not a concept in the way that, say, Misplaced Childhood or The Lamb Lies Down is. I can - and DO! - put on TLLDOB to listen to the title track, or Carpet Crawlers, or Chamber of 32 Doors. And no, the lyrics make no sense out of context (they don't make much sense in context either, to be honest) but the SONGS are solid. I wish there were more SONGS on TA.
Exactly, with the structure and randomness of most things going on here, it's a stretch to call these songs. They are pieces to a frustrating and underwhelming jigsaw puzzle where you're over trying to put it together a quarter of the way through.
-
Well done, Kade. Appreciate the effort. You said some things throughout that I've thought but never posted.
I know many edited TA down to one disc. As did I. I also edited many songs to fit more of them onto it. Since you mentioned more than a few intros that were not appealing, I offer you a very edited two disc track listing, total time under 95 minutes. If you ever go through the album again, maybe this might be a bit more palatable. Oh, and I have very little 'Faythe' in the presentation as well.
Now we just need you to upload yourself singing a song, ala Indiscipline, so that we can put the voice to the comments ;)
Dystopian Overture (start at 3:59) 0:52 *
The Gift Of Music 4:00
The Answer 1:53
A Better Life 4:39
Lord Nafaryus 3:28
A Savior In The Square 4:14
When Your Time Has Come 4:19
Act Of Faythe (start at 4:32) 0:29 *
Three Days 3:44
Brother, Can You Hear Me? (start at 0:50) 4:21 *
A Life Left Behind 5:49
Ravenskill (start at 2:11) 3:50 *
Chosen 4:32
A Tempting Offer (ends at 3:43) 3:43 *
The X Aspect (start at 1:24) 2:49 *
Total time 52:42
The Astonishing (the first 1:23) 1:23 * optional
A New Beginning 7:41
Moment Of Betrayal 6:12
Heaven's Cove (start at 0:43) 3:37 *
Begin Again 3:54
The Path That Divides (start at 0:42) 4:28 *
The Walking Shadow (ends 2:18) 2:18 *
My Last Farewell (start at 0:58) 2:46 *
Savior In the Square intro 1:34
Our New World 4:12
Astonishing (start at 3:17) 2:34 *
Power Down 1:25
Total time 42:04
*edited
-
Well done, Kade. Appreciate the effort. You said some things throughout that I've thought but never posted.
I know many edited TA down to one disc. As did I. I also edited many songs to fit more of them onto it. Since you mentioned more than a few intros that were not appealing, I offer you a very edited two disc track listing, total time under 95 minutes. If you ever go through the album again, maybe this might be a bit more palatable. Oh, and I have very little 'Faythe' in the presentation as well.
Now we just need you to upload yourself singing a song, ala Indiscipline, so that we can put the voice to the comments ;)
Dystopian Overture (start at 3:59) 0:52 *
The Gift Of Music 4:00
The Answer 1:53
A Better Life 4:39
Lord Nafaryus 3:28
A Savior In The Square 4:14
When Your Time Has Come 4:19
Act Of Faythe (start at 4:32) 0:29 *
Three Days 3:44
Brother, Can You Hear Me? (start at 0:50) 4:21 *
A Life Left Behind 5:49
Ravenskill (start at 2:11) 3:50 *
Chosen 4:32
A Tempting Offer (ends at 3:43) 3:43 *
The X Aspect (start at 1:24) 2:49 *
Total time 52:42
The Astonishing (the first 1:23) 1:23 * optional
A New Beginning 7:41
Moment Of Betrayal 6:12
Heaven's Cove (start at 0:43) 3:37 *
Begin Again 3:54
The Path That Divides (start at 0:42) 4:28 *
The Walking Shadow (ends 2:18) 2:18 *
My Last Farewell (start at 0:58) 2:46 *
Savior In the Square intro 1:34
Our New World 4:12
Astonishing (start at 3:17) 2:34 *
Power Down 1:25
Total time 42:04
*edited
Ooh, I kind of want to try my hand at editing this together so it flows smoothly. I may do just that.... :)
-
I have a feeling there's a mistake in the booklet. On The Walking Shadow, it has lyrics credited to Arhys (Don't hold your breath/The night's still young), but Daryus had just killed him in the previous song The Path That Divides. And the menacing tone of them makes me think it's Daryus addressing Xander. At least that's how I've always perceived it on listening.
-
I have a feeling there's a mistake in the booklet. On The Walking Shadow, it has lyrics credited to Arhys (Don't hold your breath/The night's still young), but Daryus had just killed him in the previous song The Path That Divides. And the menacing tone of them makes me think it's Daryus addressing Xander. At least that's how I've always perceived it on listening.
You might have a misprint cause mine says Daryus.
-
You might have a misprint cause mine says Daryus.
Huh...weird. I just double-checked to make sure I wasn't misreading and my copy most definitely says "ARHYS" above the relevant lyrics.
-
Mine says Ahrys too!
-
Who fucking cares! Surely it doesn't make the story any worse??
-
Who fucking cares! Surely it doesn't make the story any worse??
I do.
Mine says Daryus also (vinyl box).
-
If I gave a shit I'd go through my cds and find mine to check for you lads.
-
Mine says Arhys. CD, serial RR7493-2.
-
Who fucking cares! Surely it doesn't make the story any worse??
You keep carrying on like all of us share the same opinion as you on TA. News flash: we don't.
-
I was only trying to make conversation.
-
I was only trying to make conversation.
It worked. :lol
-
Who fucking cares! Surely it doesn't make the story any worse??
You keep carrying on like all of us share the same opinion as you on TA. News flash: we don't.
Not at all. And breaking news ... I know.
I'm just here to interrupt the circle jerk of adulation once and a while. ;) :lol Jeez, can't a guy razz his buddies when there are different opinions on a not-serious matter?
-
I don't know if it was ever in the plans or not, but I've been hoping for a TA live audio release from the LNFA for a couple years already. Now, with the lineup change, I expect this to be pushed to the very bottom of the priority list unless they already had it prepared and ready to be announced/released (which I very highly doubt). Oh well.
-
Jeez, can't a guy razz his buddies when there are different opinions on a not-serious matter?
Of course not. What do you think this is, a discussion forum?
-
I don't know if it was ever in the plans or not, but I've been hoping for a TA live audio release from the LNFA for a couple years already. Now, with the lineup change, I expect this to be pushed to the very bottom of the priority list unless they already had it prepared and ready to be announced/released (which I very highly doubt). Oh well.
They did release MP-era material during MM's time with the band. I hope we get a live version with a better mix.
-
I really don't think that the era of the band / who the current drummer is has any impact on whether or not we would have gotten a live TA release. I just don't think they have video of an entire show to do a video release (if they even plan to do video releases at all), and I'm not sure whether they feel they have audio that is good enough to justify an audio-only release. But my opinion is that, IF they have good enough audio, it is probably MORE likely that it gets a release with MP back in the band. And I say that because I don't think John and James were all that motivated to put out a live TA release from what they have. But Portnoy doesn't seem to have anything against Mangini-era material at all, and he thinks like a fan when it comes to stuff like this, AND he is a completist (and somewhat obsessive about that). So I could see him actually advocating for releasing a show. I don't have any info one way or the other, but that's my take on it for what it's worth.
-
Who fucking cares! Surely it doesn't make the story any worse??
You keep carrying on like all of us share the same opinion as you on TA. News flash: we don't.
Well, some of us actually DO share his opinion.
-
I really don't think that the era of the band / who the current drummer is has any impact on whether or not we would have gotten a live TA release. I just don't think they have video of an entire show to do a video release (if they even plan to do video releases at all), and I'm not sure whether they feel they have audio that is good enough to justify an audio-only release. But my opinion is that, IF they have good enough audio, it is probably MORE likely that it gets a release with MP back in the band. And I say that because I don't think John and James were all that motivated to put out a live TA release from what they have. But Portnoy doesn't seem to have anything against Mangini-era material at all, and he thinks like a fan when it comes to stuff like this, AND he is a completist (and somewhat obsessive about that). So I could see him actually advocating for releasing a show. I don't have any info one way or the other, but that's my take on it for what it's worth.
They definitely have good enough audio. They record every single show, so they could do something similar to the Happy Holidays/ADTOE Tour where they choose the best versions from multiple shows if they wanted to.
I don't think MP would be against that either, I'm just not too optimistic about this happening anytime soon (if ever) when there's still a good batch of unreleased stuff from the original run + all the new stuff from MP's archives he already contributed with before rejoining +all other stuff he might want to add. I just don't think anything TA related is going to be too high in the priority list for the foreseeable future.
-
Portnoy doesn't seem to have anything against Mangini-era material at all
I'm happy to hear this.
-
Listened to The Astonishing again in preparation for the Top 100 thread, and I think it holds up about as well as I remember. I think the rankings might be slightly lower than last time, but I still enjoy every song on the album. I have a few criticisms, but they're minor and don't affect my enjoyment of it much. The only lyrics I don't like is Heaven's Cove being referred to as a place where "the stars touch the sky"; I think I get what they're trying to say, but it's too vague and sounds like that could to anywhere where you can see stars in the sky. And the only other weird thing is the crying at the beginning of Losing Faythe; the female voice sounds fine, but the male voice sounds kind of goofy. I still think Whispers on the Wind should have been combined with Hymn of a Thousand Voices, it feels a little unnecessary as its own track but would've made for a great intro in HoaTV. My last complaint is that TA feels a little undercooked. I don't feel like it's unfinished, and I don't have a problem with the 34-track structure, but one, there's a couple technical oddities. The vocals during "people just don't have the time for music" on TGoM, which I don't really mind, but what distracts me a little is the end of A Tempting Offer, "Take the evening to deci- -ide". Two, I think it's clear they put a lot of time into the story, but I feel like there's some important elements that aren't mentioned at all in the album. Most notably, Nafaryus being nicknamed "Bug" is only brought up during A New Beginning once, and nowhere else throughout the album, which could've been more impactful if they'd mentioned it within the album itself. And the other thing is that Gabriel is titled "The Astonishing" because of his special gift of music, but nowhere in the album is this ever mentioned.
Other than that, great album! Every song has enjoyable moments, even the short ones like Whispers on the Wind, and I also like the Nomac tracks. I think it would've been cool to have a longer instrumental with the noise machine music, although I guess it would be weird since in context of the story, it's not really considered music compared to what Gabriel is capable of and what Faythe has on her music player. I love all the uplifting moments on this album (A Better Life, A Savior in the Square and When Your Time Has Come, Act of Faythe, Begin Again, Hymn of a Thousand Voices, and there's probably a few others). I feel like this album does a really good job of conveying emotions in the story through the music alone. A Savior in the Square ends with this feeling like time has frozen still for a moment as Gabriel notices Faythe and admires her beauty. In Ravenskill, there's the instrumental section after Faythe asks X for help, which has this dramatic, ominous sound to it, signifying the risk Faythe's taking by attempting to see Gabriel again, and showing that her doing as such is a big turning point for how the story will unfold. This is then juxtaposed by the tone becoming more pleasant-sounding as James begins singing again and X agrees to take her to Arhys. Then the music becomes more tense again when Arhys confronts her, initially unwilling to trust her. Even parts that might sound off in a standalone context make sense within a listen of the full album, like the ending of Losing Faythe. The song musically ends in an uplifting way, showing that Nafaryus is clinging onto his last possible hope, that being Gabriel's gift of music. This hope is then quickly snuffed out as in the following song, Gabriel is at his lowest point and feels like his gift is gone after his scream from earlier. Then the tone gradually grows lighter and stronger with Hymn of a Thousand Voices as the villagers come by, offering their encouragement, Gabriel finding his voice again, and singing to bring Faythe back to life. Things like this is why I say The Astonishing is only a little undercooked. There was room for more elaboration and improvement, but I think for what we got, Dream Theater still put a lot of love and effort into this album.
-
It's a good time to pimp out my shortened version of The Astonishing.
My abridged version starts at Chosen....
https://youtu.be/lbAYaNfSUFo?si=kHPvmc_tNxz_sWT6
I actually have a newer version that includes more, but just been lazy at making another video to go along with it. :biggrin:
-
But Portnoy doesn't seem to have anything against Mangini-era material at all, and he thinks like a fan when it comes to stuff like this, AND he is a completist (and somewhat obsessive about that)...
Therefore I was kind of shocked when he said in his vinyl collection-video's he does not own a copy of A Change of Seasons. Figuring, since this one is so personal, he surely would have this EP vinyl in his collection and would treasure the piece, but he doesn't have one. Remarkable...
-
Revenge, I really like your breakdown of The Astonishing.
Benjamin, I will listen to your abridged version tomorrow morning, driving to work. Thanks.
-
But Portnoy doesn't seem to have anything against Mangini-era material at all, and he thinks like a fan when it comes to stuff like this, AND he is a completist (and somewhat obsessive about that)...
Therefore I was kind of shocked when he said in his vinyl collection-video's he does not own a copy of A Change of Seasons. Figuring, since this one is so personal, he surely would have this EP vinyl in his collection and would treasure the piece, but he doesn't have one. Remarkable...
You forget that those videos were of his vinyl reissues, not of his full vinyl collection. So assuming it was released on vinyl when it first came out, I'm sure he has it. Keep in mind the vinyl reissues were done without his involvement since he wasn't in the band, so that helps explain why he didn't have it at that point. By now, it's quite possible he does.
-
Revenge, I really like your breakdown of The Astonishing.
Thank you, Wim! :)
-
Interesting take Scotty, wasn't aware of that.
-
Revenge, I really like your breakdown of The Astonishing.
Benjamin, I will listen to your abridged version tomorrow morning, driving to work. Thanks.
I really appreciate it. :tup
-
Did you already hear that?
https://youtu.be/qzLEWQPm_Zo?si=NlhvwKsetYVTL38S
TA with different AI singers.
-
Did you already hear that?
https://youtu.be/qzLEWQPm_Zo?si=NlhvwKsetYVTL38S
TA with different AI singers.
Fascinating. I may just have to sample this.
Mains:
Gabriel - Einar Solberg
Lord Nafaryus - Sir Russell Allen
Faythe - Sharon den Adel
Arhys - Zachary Stevens
Daryus - Andre Matos
With:
Arabelle - Floor Jansen
Xander - Charlie Dominici
A townsperson in Ravenskill - Mike Portnoy
Narrator:
James LaBrie
-
Did you already hear that?
https://youtu.be/qzLEWQPm_Zo?si=NlhvwKsetYVTL38S
TA with different AI singers.
Fascinating. I may just have to sample this.
Mains:
Gabriel - Einar Solberg
Lord Nafaryus - Sir Russell Allen
Faythe - Sharon den Adel
Arhys - Zachary Stevens
Daryus - Andre Matos
With:
Arabelle - Floor Jansen
Xander - Charlie Dominici
A townsperson in Ravenskill - Mike Portnoy
Narrator:
James LaBrie
I remember us doing this exact thing in this thread.
Let's have some fun
Mine would be:
Gabriel: David Archuleta
Lord Nefaryus: Daniel Tompkins
Faythe: Sharon Den Adel
Arhys: Mike Mills
Daryus: Howard Jones
Arabelle: Taylor Momsen
Xander: Post Malone
Narrator: James LaBrie
-
All of these AI tracks are pretty much bullshit.
-
Now I saw that it was already posted on "AI is taking over DT. Yeah YEEAAAAHHHH!". Anyway, to me it's just a curiosity. I didn't really pay attention, but from the bits what I've listen to, I think the Russel Allen's voice is not very recognizable.
-
Now I saw that it was already posted on "AI is taking over DT. Yeah YEEAAAAHHHH!". Anyway, to me it's just a curiosity. I didn't really pay attention, but from the bits what I've listen to, I think the Russel Allen's voice is not very recognizable.
Yeah, I wasn't terribly impressed with it. AI music is in a way, like porn - looks good... too good sometimes, and you know it isn't real. Something that can only be taken in limited quantities.
And with this, I caught the comment of "now can AI fix the lyrics?", and that's pretty much what I thought as I spun the first 20 minutes. :lol
I don't see me spinning this ever again, but I am interested to see how the two tracks I like from the 2nd disc turn out (again, out of curiosity).
-
Kind of ironic that this AI-generated music thing might be the beginning of the dystopia that's desribed in TA. That's what NOMACS do, right? :laugh:
-
Now I saw that it was already posted on "AI is taking over DT. Yeah YEEAAAAHHHH!". Anyway, to me it's just a curiosity. I didn't really pay attention, but from the bits what I've listen to, I think the Russel Allen's voice is not very recognizable.
Yeah, I wasn't terribly impressed with it. AI music is in a way, like porn - looks good... too good sometimes, and you know it isn't real. Something that can only be taken in limited quantities.
And with this, I caught the comment of "now can AI fix the lyrics?", and that's pretty much what I thought as I spun the first 20 minutes. :lol
I don't see me spinning this ever again, but I am interested to see how the two tracks I like from the 2nd disc turn out (again, out of curiosity).
PORN ISN'T REAL??!?!
-
Now I saw that it was already posted on "AI is taking over DT. Yeah YEEAAAAHHHH!". Anyway, to me it's just a curiosity. I didn't really pay attention, but from the bits what I've listen to, I think the Russel Allen's voice is not very recognizable.
Yeah, I wasn't terribly impressed with it. AI music is in a way, like porn - looks good... too good sometimes, and you know it isn't real. Something that can only be taken in limited quantities.
And with this, I caught the comment of "now can AI fix the lyrics?", and that's pretty much what I thought as I spun the first 20 minutes. :lol
I don't see me spinning this ever again, but I am interested to see how the two tracks I like from the 2nd disc turn out (again, out of curiosity).
PORN ISN'T REAL??!?!
It's as real as these AI generated versions of the album. Also, Disc 2 of this was worse than disc 1. It's as if the AI tried to merge the tones and inflections of JLB's sound on the album with the voice of the new vocalist. Honestly, very few songs even sound like the AI generated vocalists (Floor, Sharon, Andre, Russell... I couldn't really hear their voices in whatever it was the AI spit out).
-
Now I saw that it was already posted on "AI is taking over DT. Yeah YEEAAAAHHHH!". Anyway, to me it's just a curiosity. I didn't really pay attention, but from the bits what I've listen to, I think the Russel Allen's voice is not very recognizable.
Yeah, I wasn't terribly impressed with it. AI music is in a way, like porn - looks good... too good sometimes, and you know it isn't real. Something that can only be taken in limited quantities.
And with this, I caught the comment of "now can AI fix the lyrics?", and that's pretty much what I thought as I spun the first 20 minutes. :lol
I don't see me spinning this ever again, but I am interested to see how the two tracks I like from the 2nd disc turn out (again, out of curiosity).
PORN ISN'T REAL??!?!
It's as real as these AI generated versions of the album. Also, Disc 2 of this was worse than disc 1. It's as if the AI tried to merge the tones and inflections of JLB's sound on the album with the voice of the new vocalist. Honestly, very few songs even sound like the AI generated vocalists (Floor, Sharon, Andre, Russell... I couldn't really hear their voices in whatever it was the AI spit out).
I wasn't hearing their styles or tones either. It tried, but couldn't capture Tone and Style.
-
I sampled the AI version of TA and...while some of the AI singer voices at least slightly resemble vocalists they are supposed to simulate (Stevens, Allen), Solberg is completely off. No resemblance to how he sounds whatsoever. I am not familiar enough with the other singers to give an opinion on that.
-
It's almost a year ( 29/01 ) since The Astonishing was released.
• How did you feel about it a year go ?
• How do you fell about it now ?
I liked it a lot and still play it every once in a while. I'm not tired of it yet because I haven't over played it.
I'll take a pass on this one . . . it has gotten me in hot water in the past :-) Needless to say, my opinion hasn't changed.