DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: erwinrafael on December 31, 2016, 12:09:54 AM
-
After doing my LaBrie sampler and seeing how many TA songs I put in there, I think that DT should ditch the 1990s soaring vocals after the Images, Words and Beyond tour and focus on exploiting the range of emotions and styles that JLB showed in TA for their future studio records. He's not getting any younger and he has so much more vocal arsenal other than hitting high notes. Given how well he did Awake songs in the AFTR tour, maybe they can still do angry vocals. But I hope there would be less belting I&W style in the future.
-
I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.
-
Or get Matt Guilory in there to help write/produce vocal melodies. Dude knows Jame's range/strengths/weaknesses perfectly.
-
Correct me if I'm wrong but since MP left James has done his vocals in Canada. JP gives him latitude
-
True, in a certain limit James has his touch on vocal melodies but JP/JR duo write exact vocal melodies.
To OP discussion, I think I&W operatic/high register vocal style (which James still use on live) is like James' vocal performance signature. People expect him to hit high notes in both studio and live. The band seems to consider this fact.
-
I've beaten this topic to death recently in other threads, so I won't rehash what I feel about it. I'll just say there are some very good points mentioned so far in this thread :tup
-
I thought the vocals on TA were amazing.
I'm just honestly not a fan of him live. His voice almost always seems to sound a lot different (not talking about missing notes, I mean the tone quality of it.)
It'd definitely be better for the band to write less high vocal melodies for him though.
-
Or get Matt Guilory in there to help write/produce vocal melodies. Dude knows Jame's range/strengths/weaknesses perfectly.
Actually a really interesting idea. Would be really cool to see the stuff Matt, JP, JR, and JLB would come up with if they worked together on vocal melodies.
-
I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.
I agree. I guess that for his solo albums he's writing the vocal melodies (at least most of them), and the results are (imo) very good.
-
Yep, agreed!
James in The Astonishing was AWESOME! He portrayed each and every character well. :tup
-
I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.
I agree. I guess that for his solo albums he's writing the vocal melodies (at least most of them), and the results are (imo) very good.
I have no idea about most of his albums since the writing credits aren't very clear, but on the last JLB album, he is only credited for co-writing 5 of the 12 songs. So at least 7 songs he had no input in. And of those, it's still likely that a good amount of the vocal melodies were written by Matt Guilory.
-
I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.
I agree. I guess that for his solo albums he's writing the vocal melodies (at least most of them), and the results are (imo) very good.
I have no idea about most of his albums since the writing credits aren't very clear, but on the last JLB album, he is only credited for co-writing 5 of the 12 songs. So at least 7 songs he had no input in. And of those, it's still likely that a good amount of the vocal melodies were written by Matt Guilory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsJ2kO6GqRY
After the last one, James was really open about how Matt was the main songwriter. Matt even posted on this forum (I think) and someone (maybe me) asked him about that and he said it was always that way. There was a good Q&A for a while with him. I wonder if someone can dig it up?
Anyway, he started posting some of the original demos with him on vocals so you can see how complete the song was before James got involved which for a lot of songs was something like 98%.
-
I thought the vocals on TA were amazing.
I'm just honestly not a fan of him live. His voice almost always seems to sound a lot different (not talking about missing notes, I mean the tone quality of it.)
So he's like the Jon Bon Jovi of prog. :lol
-
I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.
I agree. I guess that for his solo albums he's writing the vocal melodies (at least most of them), and the results are (imo) very good.
I have no idea about most of his albums since the writing credits aren't very clear, but on the last JLB album, he is only credited for co-writing 5 of the 12 songs. So at least 7 songs he had no input in. And of those, it's still likely that a good amount of the vocal melodies were written by Matt Guilory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsJ2kO6GqRY
After the last one, James was really open about how Matt was the main songwriter. Matt even posted on this forum (I think) and someone (maybe me) asked him about that and he said it was always that way. There was a good Q&A for a while with him. I wonder if someone can dig it up?
Anyway, he started posting some of the original demos with him on vocals so you can see how complete the song was before James got involved which for a lot of songs was something like 98%.
Matt postet on this forum? I'd love to read that!
I know that Impermanent Resonance was more Matts than JLBs work (JLB said in an interview that though he had influence Matt was the main composer) but I also remember from older interviews that they collaborated 50/50, Matt sending recorded music to JLB and JLB sending vocal melodies back.
Anyway, with a composer like Matt who is able to write perfect vocal lines for JLBs voice, JLB probably doesn't need to change melodies. In DT it would help to give him more influence, he knows his voice better than JP and JR. To me it seems they are so focused on composing for their instruments that they sometimes neglect the vocals a bit.
-
I think the idea of having Matt Guillory's input on vocal melodies for the next DT albums is great! I just don't see the DT guys being too open about external influence on their music at this point, sadly. It's the same case as with having external producer, guests, etc.
Not saying that's bad at all, seems like they want to stay true to themselves and write albums thar are 100% DT, and I like that way of thinking. However, having some extra input here and there on certain aspects can actually benefit them a lot if done right, and Matt's work would definitely help the vocal melodies a lot.
On a side note, since we're talking about JLB's vocals in DT for the future, do you see James staying in the band untill they decide to stop or do you think he'll eventually leave to focus more on other aspects of his career and, most importantly, give his voice a well deserved break after years and years of heavy touring?
Now, please don't misunderstand what I just said, by no means I'm saying he should leave, be replaced or anything like that. I'm just curious to see what some of you think about this. Someone else posted, on the MM interview thread, I think, that he doesn't see Jordan staying with DT untill the end, mainly because of his age compared to the other guys, and I think that's likely to happen in a few years. So, could the same happen to James?
-
I think the idea of having Matt Guillory's input on vocal melodies for the next DT albums is great! I just don't see the DT guys being too open about external influence on their music at this point, sadly. It's the same case as with having external producer, guests, etc.
Not saying that's bad at all, seems like they want to stay true to themselves and write albums thar are 100% DT, and I like that way of thinking. However, having some extra input here and there on certain aspects can actually benefit them a lot if done right, and Matt's work would definitely help the vocal melodies a lot.
On a side note, since we're talking about JLB's vocals in DT for the future, do you see James staying in the band untill they decide to stop or do you think he'll eventually leave to focus more on other aspects of his career and, most importantly, give his voice a well deserved break after years and years of heavy touring?
Now, please don't misunderstand what I just said, by no means I'm saying he should leave, be replaced or anything like that. I'm just curious to see what some of you think about this. Someone else posted, on the MM interview thread, I think, that he doesn't see Jordan staying with DT untill the end, mainly because of his age compared to the other guys, and I think that's likely to happen in a few years. So, could the same happen to James?
James is definitely in it until the end. Don't forget, this isn't a band that sells a million albums and has more money than they know what to do with. I think they know they are lucky to live this comfortably. I think James and Mike probably make the least from publishing but still have a low six figure salary. Not chump change but not like they can afford to quit. Hopefully they have good retirement plans.
I think JR and JP make the most but even they still aren't in the 1%. Despite various speculations, I think this is the lineup that sees DT into their twilight but even that probably won't be for another 10 years with maybe 3 more albums.
-
I think the idea of having Matt Guillory's input on vocal melodies for the next DT albums is great! I just don't see the DT guys being too open about external influence on their music at this point, sadly. It's the same case as with having external producer, guests, etc.
Not saying that's bad at all, seems like they want to stay true to themselves and write albums thar are 100% DT, and I like that way of thinking. However, having some extra input here and there on certain aspects can actually benefit them a lot if done right, and Matt's work would definitely help the vocal melodies a lot.
On a side note, since we're talking about JLB's vocals in DT for the future, do you see James staying in the band untill they decide to stop or do you think he'll eventually leave to focus more on other aspects of his career and, most importantly, give his voice a well deserved break after years and years of heavy touring?
Now, please don't misunderstand what I just said, by no means I'm saying he should leave, be replaced or anything like that. I'm just curious to see what some of you think about this. Someone else posted, on the MM interview thread, I think, that he doesn't see Jordan staying with DT untill the end, mainly because of his age compared to the other guys, and I think that's likely to happen in a few years. So, could the same happen to James?
James is definitely in it until the end. Don't forget, this isn't a band that sells a million albums and has more money than they know what to do with. I think they know they are lucky to live this comfortably. I think James and Mike probably make the least from publishing but still have a low six figure salary. Not chump change but not like they can afford to quit. Hopefully they have good retirement plans.
I think JR and JP make the most but even they still aren't in the 1%. Despite various speculations, I think this is the lineup that sees DT into their twilight but even that probably won't be for another 10 years with maybe 3 more albums.
Really hope that's the case with James! And, like others said here, hope they start taking his voice into more consideration while on such long tours.
About this being the last lineup, it could be, but I still think JR would be the first one to retire, since he will be in his mid to late 60's after a couple more album/tour cycles. That's complete speculation, btw, but that's what I think is likely to happen :biggrin:
-
Yes, but while playing keyboards is physically demanding, it's not so much so that a person in their 60s can't do it.
I don't want to start the speculation again but I think the only one that would really consider quitting would be Mangini and even I don't think he would quit.
I also don't think JP would really want to try to find a new keyboardist or vocalist or drummer so if any of them had issues in five years with the amount of touring, I'm sure he would probably looks at scaling back touring. I think starting about 10-15 years ago they started making GOOD money and have been smart about it. So another 5-10 years and they can really afford to take a year or two break and start looking at how they want to wrap thing up or maybe just tour every other year.
-
While there are undoubtedly many vocalists who could rise to the challenge, I've personally always felt that James is the least replaceable member. I know many disagree with this, and that's okay. He's just been in the band since as far back as it counts, and his voice is so one-of-a-kind. The human voice is such a unique, personal thing, down to the smallest little nuance. Having different instrumentalists swapped out can certainly affect the songwriting, stylistically, sure - but a different human voice over the music...that's like changing the human element that you identify with for another. I can't really imagine any other vocalist singing DT and it sounding "right". Obviously many out there could pull it off and sound technically great, but it just wouldn't translate the same. I suppose it's similar to how some fans (presumably drummers) feel about MP's departure, and MM taking his place. Anyway, I genuinely hope James is in it until the end. I just love the sound of his voice; he's definitely one of my all-time favorite vocalists. Plus, in more ways than one, the band really owes a lot to him. Had he not come along at the right time the way he did, who knows what would've happened. His joining the band certainly gave them the launch they needed.
-
Basically all that Stewie said.
JLB is such an integral and unique part of DT's music that no other singer, whle technically skilled to belt out the tunes, would "sound DT". Kinda like when Ripper replaced Halford in Judas Priest - he could scream like a banshee but Halford has been there since 1973 until 1993 and no way it would have sounded right with anybody else, even though Ripper was impressive live.
"Plus, in more ways than one, the band really owes a lot to him. Had he not come along at the right time the way he did, who knows what would've happened."
Isn't MP on record stating that the band was about to give up the search for the singer and go on as an instrumental act? which would have doomed them in the long run, no way they would have been half this famous after 30 years.
About the original question, I hope in future recordings they'll find the right balance between knowing each other's limits, while not turning all the songs into low-key stuff. The vast range of emotions conveyed by James' voice have to be there, just like they were on The Astonishing where he did a wonderful job.
-
I remember Marco Sfogli commenting on fb about JLB contribution on solo albums being just his name on it.
-
Isn't MP on record stating that the band was about to give up the search for the singer and go on as an instrumental act? which would have doomed them in the long run, no way they would have been half this famous after 30 years.
Something along those lines, I believe. I thought they were basically about to call it quits, but not sure. I know I read about it in the Lifting Shadows book, but it's been a few years so I'm a little fuzzy on the exact details.
-
After doing my LaBrie sampler and seeing how many TA songs I put in there, I think that DT should ditch the 1990s soaring vocals after the Images, Words and Beyond tour and focus on exploiting the range of emotions and styles that JLB showed in TA for their future studio records. He's not getting any younger and he has so much more vocal arsenal other than hitting high notes. Given how well he did Awake songs in the AFTR tour, maybe they can still do angry vocals. But I hope there would be less belting I&W style in the future.
Huh.. I thought they used more of his range (re:higher end) on TA than they have in a long time. I've always maintained that James has been severely underutilized vocally for a long time. This is one of the reasons I like TA so much. James has sung albums like SC and BC&SL perfectly, but they didn't ask him to do very much.
-
After doing my LaBrie sampler and seeing how many TA songs I put in there, I think that DT should ditch the 1990s soaring vocals after the Images, Words and Beyond tour and focus on exploiting the range of emotions and styles that JLB showed in TA for their future studio records. He's not getting any younger and he has so much more vocal arsenal other than hitting high notes. Given how well he did Awake songs in the AFTR tour, maybe they can still do angry vocals. But I hope there would be less belting I&W style in the future.
I think that has been their approach for the past few albums. I think the only 'incredibly high' moment recorded by LaBrie recently has been Illumination Theory. Both JP and LaBrie are probably very aware of his age, his capabilities and his limitations.
-
I belive everyone in the band takes their limits into the consideration. I can't imagine conversation like this taking place while making albums: "hey James we know you can't pull this shit live due to your age but hey let's do it in the studio."
-
I remember Marco Sfogli commenting on fb about JLB contribution on solo albums being just his name on it.
Well, writing lyrics for 6 songs on Static Impulse is hardly "just his name on it" ...
-
I belive everyone in the band takes their limits into the consideration. I can't imagine conversation like this taking place while making albums: "hey James we know you can't pull this shit live due to your age but hey let's do it in the studio."
About conversations ...during the writing process for ADTOE is was like this (quote from JP from the tour book):
"Enter James ... determined to be an important part of the writing process, earnestly listening through headphones, eyes closed, rockin' out to the music all while belting out melodies, some of which would later become vocal parts or lines to be crafted into guitar passages or weaved into chord movements. I can only imagine what it must be like to be the vocalist in this band. It's nearly impossible to get a word in edgewise with all the notes and riffs flying around the room!" :laugh:
-
I belive everyone in the band takes their limits into the consideration. I can't imagine conversation like this taking place while making albums: "hey James we know you can't pull this shit live due to your age but hey let's do it in the studio."
About conversations ...during the writing process for ADTOE is was like this (quote from JP from the tour book):
"Enter James ... determined to be an important part of the writing process, earnestly listening through headphones, eyes closed, rockin' out to the music all while belting out melodies, some of which would later become vocal parts or lines to be crafted into guitar passages or weaved into chord movements. I can only imagine what it must be like to be the vocalist in this band. It's nearly impossible to get a word in edgewise with all the notes and riffs flying around the room!" :laugh:
I think that is the most detailed comment about James's actual role in the writing process and I was never aware of it. I never have read one of their tour books. I guess I never figured they were worth much but that quote alone says more than I've read about LaBrie's input in the 5+ years since ADTOE's release than any other interview or book.
Interesting! Thanks for sharing.
-
I don't want DT to limit their musical output to just what they can do live. While i do agree that live performances is an integral part to how music can and should be experienced, i dont want the albums to suffer from a "lowest common denominator" effect. The studio albums are what live on for eternity for most listeners (yes, yes, i'm aware some people really like live albums - but they are strictly speaking not entirely live either).
I mean, it's not like JP is sticking to only stuff that he can recreate perfectly live - he's double-tracking guitars all the time, and playing backing guitar during guitar solos (i mean, JP is good, but he's not THAT good that he's able to shred and riff at the same time ;).
If James sounds good in studio, let them create music that sounds good, rather than limiting their output based on whether james can reliably perform it perfectly.
-
Huh.. I thought they used more of his range (re:higher end) on TA than they have in a long time. I've always maintained that James has been severely underutilized vocally for a long time. This is one of the reasons I like TA so much. James has sung albums like SC and BC&SL perfectly, but they didn't ask him to do very much.
They did, but they were very well spaced and the use of the high range is mixed with a variety of vocal styles in just one song.
Example is A New Beginning. There is catchy poppy vocal melody, then there are well timed climactic high notes, there are aggressive raspy vocals, and a soft section. And then there's my favorite vocal line from James in the album: "you're the one who's blind"
If James sounds good in studio, let them create music that sounds good, rather than limiting their output based on whether james can reliably perform it perfectly.
For me, my original post was not really about whether James can pull the vocals off live or not. It's more of TA actually how much more vocal arsenal James has that maybe it's time they explore more rather than the belting that has been the staple vocal highlight. ;)
-
I don't want DT to limit their musical output to just what they can do live. While i do agree that live performances is an integral part to how music can and should be experienced, i dont want the albums to suffer from a "lowest common denominator" effect. The studio albums are what live on for eternity for most listeners (yes, yes, i'm aware some people really like live albums - but they are strictly speaking not entirely live either).
I mean, it's not like JP is sticking to only stuff that he can recreate perfectly live - he's double-tracking guitars all the time, and playing backing guitar during guitar solos (i mean, JP is good, but he's not THAT good that he's able to shred and riff at the same time ;).
If James sounds good in studio, let them create music that sounds good, rather than limiting their output based on whether james can reliably perform it perfectly.
Hmmm, I guess I hadn't really considered it from that angle. That's actually a really good point! Lately I've been thinking about JLB's vocals moving forward, and how they should write things that he can "guaranteed sing live", that suit his current range...but then when you mentioned JP, and the lowest common denominator thing, it kinda does make sense.
In other words, don't limit your creative artistic vision, or water it down, just because there's a chance you may not be able to recreate it 100% accurately live, right? Is that what you mean? Petrucci has written some wildly over the top guitar solos on recent albums, some of which he slightly slips up on live, but I guess that hasn't kept him from pushing the bar even higher with his soloing on the next album.
-
I don't want DT to limit their musical output to just what they can do live. While i do agree that live performances is an integral part to how music can and should be experienced, i dont want the albums to suffer from a "lowest common denominator" effect. The studio albums are what live on for eternity for most listeners (yes, yes, i'm aware some people really like live albums - but they are strictly speaking not entirely live either).
I mean, it's not like JP is sticking to only stuff that he can recreate perfectly live - he's double-tracking guitars all the time, and playing backing guitar during guitar solos (i mean, JP is good, but he's not THAT good that he's able to shred and riff at the same time ;).
If James sounds good in studio, let them create music that sounds good, rather than limiting their output based on whether james can reliably perform it perfectly.
Hmmm, I guess I hadn't really considered it from that angle. That's actually a really good point! Lately I've been thinking about JLB's vocals moving forward, and how they should write things that he can "guaranteed sing live", that suit his current range...but then when you mentioned JP, and the lowest common denominator thing, it kinda does make sense.
In other words, don't limit your creative artistic vision, or water it down, just because there's a chance you may not be able to recreate it 100% accurately live, right? Is that what you mean? Petrucci has written some wildly over the top guitar solos on recent albums, some of which he slightly slips up on live, but I guess that hasn't kept him from pushing the bar even higher with his soloing on the next album.
I agree with both! I think they sould continue to push themselves at the studio, since that's the poing of a studio album, but be very aware of their limitations live. If we talk about James's vocals, they could down tune some of the stuff so he's able to sing the songs they way they were written, but without hurting his voice (or sounding terrible) doing that
-
Another thing, not every song HAS to be played live. There are such things as "album tracks".
-
I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.
This. James should be much more involved in crafting the vocals of DT than I think he is. It seems to me DT has always had the songwriter tell JLB what to do, instead of involving JLB more directly, and that, to me, is a problem. I don't know what goes on in the band, but if it is JLB's CHOICE not to be involved, that would be a bummer. But if it is not his choice, and JP (and back in the day, MP as well) writes the vocal melodies for James, that is a mistake (and what I assume is usually the case).
That's not to say that some songs aren't awesome. Of course they are. But I've always believed that a singer should be very involved with the songwriters in crafting appropriate vocal melodies. In Queensryche, that's one of the things that made the original lineup special. DeGarmo would work WITH Tate to find the best vocal melodies for their songs. Once Chris left, one of the glaring problems of QR were not as good vocal melodies. This is an opposite example to DT, but it shows that vocal melodies need to be an effort of both the singer AND songwriter, IMO.
-
This. James should be much more involved in crafting the vocals of DT than I think he is. It seems to me DT has always had the songwriter tell JLB what to do, instead of involving JLB more directly, and that, to me, is a problem. I don't know what goes on in the band, but if it is JLB's CHOICE not to be involved, that would be a bummer. But if it is not his choice, and JP (and back in the day, MP as well) writes the vocal melodies for James, that is a mistake (and what I assume is usually the case).
That's not to say that some songs aren't awesome. Of course they are. But I've always believed that a singer should be very involved with the songwriters in crafting appropriate vocal melodies. In Queensryche, that's one of the things that made the original lineup special. DeGarmo would work WITH Tate to find the best vocal melodies for their songs. Once Chris left, one of the glaring problems of QR were not as good vocal melodies. This is an opposite example to DT, but it shows that vocal melodies need to be an effort of both the singer AND songwriter, IMO.
I definitely agree with all of this, as well. Vocalists should always oversee the development of the vocal melodies, as they are the ones who will be singing them live.
-
I can't think of any other vocalist with the same voice timbre as James. His tone is VERY singular. It's not like Allen/Lande/Dio where you can find similar tones and styles...
-
Once Chris left, one of the glaring problems of QR were not as good vocal melodies. This is an opposite example to DT, but it shows that vocal melodies need to be an effort of both the singer AND songwriter, IMO.
I think their biggest problem after the first few albums was their singer :biggrin:
I can't think of any other vocalist with the same voice timbre as James. His tone is VERY singular. It's not like Allen/Lande/Dio where you can find similar tones and styles...
Agree. James's voice is unique. Even though there's lots of amazing vocalists out there who could nail the DT songs, a similar timbre is very difficult to find.
I was listening to a couple TA songs yesterday while I was walking and, oh man, James sounds perfect on the album. He was able to give each character a unique tone, while still sound like him. I'm astonished :D
-
Another thing, not every song HAS to be played live. There are such things as "album tracks".
But that hasn't been the DT way and one reason I love DT, they play everything. Maybe that will change, but it would really suck to love one of those "album tracks" and never see it live.... Iron Maiden I am thinking of you >:(
-
Another thing, not every song HAS to be played live. There are such things as "album tracks".
But that hasn't been the DT way and one reason I love DT, they play everything. Maybe that will change, but it would really suck to love one of those "album tracks" and never see it live.... Iron Maiden I am thinking of you >:(
Usually, the tracks that don't get played live are the ones the fans aren't too crazy about. Having said that, I'd rather have them play most of their songs live.
Like you said, DT has almost played everything in their catalog and that's what makes their tours all different and interesting. I never understood how some bands, even when they're touring in support of a new album (Megadeth, for example), play the same old songs on every tour, every concert, every single time (Holy wars, Symphony of Destruction, etc) and just include a couple of new tracks on the set. Imagine if DT played Pull Me Under on all their concerts...
Just to mention them, if I'm not wrong, the only songs DT has never played live are: Don't Look Past Me, The Best of Times, Raw Dog, The Bigger Picture and Surrender to Reason.
-
Have they ever played Hell's Kitchen exactly as it is on the album?
EDIT: Checked Setlist.fm, they did, but mainly in the all acoustic shows.
-
Another thing, not every song HAS to be played live. There are such things as "album tracks".
But that hasn't been the DT way and one reason I love DT, they play everything. Maybe that will change, but it would really suck to love one of those "album tracks" and never see it live.... Iron Maiden I am thinking of you >:(
Well, actually it's always been the DT way, since 1994 anyway. They never played Space Dye Vest until a couple of years ago, and now they will (probably) never play The Best of Times.
-
Well, the reasons why they were never played are very specific and personal, it's not that they wrote many songs over the years adding duets, odd instruments, three guitar lines and two keyboards because "who cares, it's not that we will play it live anyway". Or, to make a less extreme example, had an habit of never ever playing some songs from each album like for example Iron Maiden do.
-
Eh, well, there are plenty of songs that aren't played from every album.. Sure, they probably got some play during the initial tour (especially when MP was doing the setlists, because he made sure they covered most of the ground). But after the initial tour, only the best hitters with the audience are played - so from each album theres a large portion that hasn't been heard live since the original tour.
-
Eh, well, there are plenty of songs that aren't played from every album.. Sure, they probably got some play during the initial tour (especially when MP was doing the setlists, because he made sure they covered most of the ground). But after the initial tour, only the best hitters with the audience are played - so from each album theres a large portion that hasn't been heard live since the original tour.
But that's more so due to only having a certain amount of songs that can be played per tour with an ever increasing amount of catalogue of music. DT has played plenty of songs after the initial album tour that many would consider not a big hit off the album but that's also IMO because DT's fan base is so diverse and the music is diverse that it's very disputed about which songs are the best anyway.
-
The fact that at any given DT show, you can hear almost ANY song in their catalog is something I love about them.
Of course, as they get older, there are just things JLB won't be able to do anymore. I have a shitload of respect for JLB for the quality of his voice at age 53. I had a HUGE drop off between 35 and now (42). I just recorded a version of "It's Not Love" by Dokken that I would have absolutely killed 10 years ago. Now it was really tough and sounds pretty strained { https://soundcloud.com/user-831858763 } A few years ago, I did a pretty bad version of GLASS MOON (that I decline to post!!!! yuck). Now, I doubt I could even get through it.
Of course DT should continue writing music with soaring operatic vocals, but they just need to keep range and key in mind..
-
I don't know if James being with the band forever is a given. He might decide that it's too much work, or that for age or health problems, he just doesn't think he can go on singing such challenging vocals. Anderson did something similar with Yes.
I vaguely remember some band interviews where it was suggested that around the middle of the 2000 decade, James wasn't really keeping up with his vocal conditioning, etc., he was sounding inconsistent at live shows, and the band was wondering if they were going to have to replace him. And they eventually had to have a talk with him. I think they worked things out, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see James lose interest once again at some point. TA was, of course, an opportunity for him to really shine, and he did so. But I could see after one or two more albums, him wanting to at least take a break or something.
-
I don't know if James being with the band forever is a given. He might decide that it's too much work, or that for age or health problems, he just doesn't think he can go on singing such challenging vocals. Anderson did something similar with Yes.
I vaguely remember some band interviews where it was suggested that around the middle of the 2000 decade, James wasn't really keeping up with his vocal conditioning, etc., he was sounding inconsistent at live shows, and the band was wondering if they were going to have to replace him. And they eventually had to have a talk with him. I think they worked things out, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see James lose interest once again at some point. TA was, of course, an opportunity for him to really shine, and he did so. But I could see after one or two more albums, him wanting to at least take a break or something.
I get what you say, but it's pretty safe bet to say that the day James LaBrie leaves Dream Theater is the day Dream Theater will cease to be.
-
I'm not sure about that, either. DT had a tough time finding someone as good as James when they were a no-name regional talent. But if they had auditions now, some of the world's best vocalists would probably show up. They could go with someone younger ala Jon Davison that would allow them to belt out soaring vocals for another 20 years.
I never thought Yes would be able to replace Anderson with someone who sounded even remotely as good, but Davison is fairly awesome.
-
I get what you say, but it's pretty safe bet to say that the day James LaBrie leaves Dream Theater is the day Dream Theater will cease to be.
Some might have said the same thing about Mike Portnoy
-
Eh, I don't know. For me, if either James or JP left, I'd kinda want DT to to hang it up. DT without either of those guys to me just wouldn't be DT.
-
DT is James' livehood, I can't see him quitting it. I want him and everyone else to ride into the sunset and hang it up all together.
-
The main issue is the primary songwriters leaving. But the singer is vital to the overall accessibility and familiarity of the band's sound.
DT's primary songwriter is JP. Without him, it doesn't sound like DT. Second in that line is JLB, because his voice is synonymous with Dream Theater. You can probably get away with not having JR (he'd be third, because he is the second major songwriter), but I agree, without JLB, it becomes a different animal entirely, even if he doesn't write anything.
-
It's all about the replacement. If they found someone who could pull off the vocals live, and at the same time engage the crowd (something JLB essentially doesn't do), I could see a lot of people not minding.
-
Ripper pulled off the vocals live in Judas Priest amazingly, how many people cried over his departure? after 20 years and countless albums Rob Halford was the one and only voice of Judas Priest.
Sure, maybe one of the most iconic and beloved metal singers of all time is not the best example to pick, but my point was that after so many years and album with a band, a vocalist becomes the facea and voice of the band and anything else would sound just wrong. As good as that wrong may be (See the insane live vocals of Ripper).
-
If JR leaves they're done. Him joining basically changed the band at a vital time and he has probably shaped their post-Scenes sound more than anyone else. Portnoy was a big part of it too but as far as I know he hardly contributed tangible musical ideas. It was more on the arrangement side of things. JP would have to hire someone who could be a writing partner in addition to keyboard player and, if the Mangini stuff is any indication, he wouldn't be interested in doing that. There's also the roadblock of finding someone who can play all of JR's keyboard parts. I'm sure there are people out there who can do it, but do they also have the same composing abilities? Doubtful.
JLB I can see going either way. It basically does depend on who replaces him and what the intention of the band is going forward. I think this I&W tour will be a litmus test for the band's future either way. They've had a long string of albums with mixed receptions and The Astonishing not widely being hailed as a masterpiece or selling out small theaters might be enough for them to decide to dial back the new music a bit. Yes has made a career in the past few years touring on their classic albums, if JLB announced he was leaving tomorrow, DT could go the Yes route too and hire some young guy who can hit the F# every night. The other (and more appealing) possibility is that they use the vacancy to go in a new direction. Then they maybe try something different which either works and extends the band's life for a few years or falls flat. But I think if there was a situation where JLB had to leave they would at least entertain one of those two options instead of hanging it up.
-
It's all about the replacement. If they found someone who could pull off the vocals live, and at the same time engage the crowd (something JLB essentially doesn't do), I could see a lot of people not minding.
I've got to say; I've never really understood this criticism against JLB. I've seen it before, just don't get it. I can understand people criticizing his singing, but as far as his stage presence is concerned, I've never had a problem with it. People say he's not a good frontman, or that he doesn't engage the crowd. What would make him more engaging?
-
I just want to make it clear, though, that I don't necessarily want JLB to leave. He is an amazing talent, and pretty much nobody else could do what he does.
But he's entering that age where he's going to be fighting against nature. I mean, some opera singers sing into their 70s, even, but I don't think they play as many shows as DT does on tour, nor are they required to both sing a high F# and then growl on the next song.
-
After doing my LaBrie sampler and seeing how many TA songs I put in there, I think that DT should ditch the 1990s soaring vocals after the Images, Words and Beyond tour and focus on exploiting the range of emotions and styles that JLB showed in TA for their future studio records. He's not getting any younger and he has so much more vocal arsenal other than hitting high notes. Given how well he did Awake songs in the AFTR tour, maybe they can still do angry vocals. But I hope there would be less belting I&W style in the future.
What is your LaBrie sampler? Re: ditching the 90s soaring vocals - do you mean live, or in the studio? I agree with you about his vocals on The Astonishing and would have no problem with them continuing down that vocal path going forward. I really don't think they've had a lot of 90s soaring vocals on recent albums anyway, but live I guess it is a different story because they'll probably always want to play at least something from their back catalog. I'd probably be fine with less I&W material in favor of some more Mangini-era songs myself, but I'd still like them to do I&W stuff from time to time.
I really hope he takes care of himself on the upcoming tour and doesn't push too hard if the high stuff just isn't coming for him. I know they aren't going to down tune, but I wouldn't have a problem with rearranging some of the highest vocal melodies to help him out. Most likely, it'll be there for him some nights, and some nights it won't. I wonder what folks would prefer - would you rather he went for the F#, for example, and risked that he doesn't pull it off in order to have the chance that he does? Or would you rather him just forego it in favor of something that's guaranteed? I'm not sure how I'd answer my own question. Thinking logically, it would make more sense for him to arrange it so he doesn't have to reach that high and so that what he does sing will sound really good. On the other hand, I've seen him hit the F# and it's awesome. I've also seen him miss, kind of screaming it, and while it's not great... it doesn't ruin it for me either. I suppose as long as he isn't hurting his vocal cords, I'd be game for him to try it. But if he's really just struggling throughout the whole I&W set - then he should come up with something that'll sound good and that helps him out (and the band should support him in that).
Which (sort of) leads to the discussion of whether the band should write really high vocal melodies on future studio albums, even if they know it can't be reproduced live. I would say yes, but. He should be able to hit it pretty reliably in the studio, it shouldn't be used extensively (as you said, there are so many facets to his voice), and again they should be willing to rearrange it live if need be. As someone else mentioned, I too love that you can expect to hear just about any DT song at one of their shows and I don't want them to do "album only" tracks, but would be fine if some tracks are different live than on the album.
-
It's all about the replacement. If they found someone who could pull off the vocals live, and at the same time engage the crowd (something JLB essentially doesn't do), I could see a lot of people not minding.
I've got to say; I've never really understood this criticism against JLB. I've seen it before, just don't get it. I can understand people criticizing his singing, but as far as his stage presence is concerned, I've never had a problem with it. People say he's not a good frontman, or that he doesn't engage the crowd. What would make him more engaging?
I'm with you. Some of the complaints I've heard are that he leaves the stage too much and that he looks pissed off/doesn't want to be there. I actually like that he leaves the stage during the instrumental parts and leaves the focus on the rest of the guys during those moments. Some singers run around from musician to musician playing air guitar, and sometimes it's silly and sometimes it fits with the band's dynamic. For DT, I prefer to be able to watch everyone else. I never agreed with the pissed off comments - I always thought he looked "serious" a lot of the time but that was appropriate. Also he doesn't talk to the crowd too much, which I like as well.
I really don't want there to be a Dream Theater without LaBrie. Agree with those who said his voice is unique (it is) and that while others could hit the same notes, it wouldn't sound right. If he were to quit tomorrow, and JP and company wanted to continue, I wouldn't begrudge them that and I'd try to support them and their new singer with an open mind. On the other hand, if he came to them and said "OK, now that I&W 25th anniversary is done, I want to go on an indefinite hiatus from singing super high notes," I think they should support that and agree to do what needs to be done to keep him in the band.
Last comment, and I'm too lazy to quote previous posts - I like the idea of LaBrie being more involved with the vocal melodies if that's what makes sense, but I have no problem with the vocal melodies in DT to this point. I think JP wrote just about all of them on The Astonishing, with some slight tweaking by JL here and there, and those melodies are incredible.
-
JLB is the voice of Dream Theater! They wouldn't be the same without him. It's like the equivalent of Journey without Steve Perry or Yes without Jon Anderson, both of those bands have now got different singers but it's just not the same. Granted, Arnel Pineda does a fantastic job but Journey fans would be delighted to have SP back even if for a song or two. YES may be a better example, the New Yes without Jon Anderson isn't even Yes to me. I just saw the Anderson, Rabin, Wakeman
tour and it was fantastic, that was the true Yes to me and they are for real. Jon's vocals are as good as ever. Yes would sell more tix with J.A. in the line-up.
Point being, James Labrie is equally as important to DT as a integral part of the band. A great frontman with an amazing powerful voice! Imagine the controversy that would cause in the DT community if JLB was missing, let alone here in this forum. Lol! I couldn't Imagine DT without him.
-
JLB's stage presence has literally never bothered me either way, in fact over the years I've found it to be a refreshing approach. He understands that at certain times, the focus should be on other guys during a DT show, and he embraces that by not trying to front man it up every second.
-
JLB stage presence hasn't bothered me, but he isn't the most crowd engaging or best frontman out there. But that's part of DT, it's not all about the singer and also, the entire band is pretty much like that as well. MP was really the only one to ever really try to engage the crowd.
-
I don't know if James being with the band forever is a given. He might decide that it's too much work, or that for age or health problems, he just doesn't think he can go on singing such challenging vocals. Anderson did something similar with Yes.
I vaguely remember some band interviews where it was suggested that around the middle of the 2000 decade, James wasn't really keeping up with his vocal conditioning, etc., he was sounding inconsistent at live shows, and the band was wondering if they were going to have to replace him. And they eventually had to have a talk with him. I think they worked things out, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see James lose interest once again at some point. TA was, of course, an opportunity for him to really shine, and he did so. But I could see after one or two more albums, him wanting to at least take a break or something.
Indeed. I see things the same way. None of us is saying "James should leave, he can't sing anymore", but let's be realistic, his voice isn't always going to deliver as it did back in the 90's, nor he should be expected to. Let's remember that James's instrument is part of his body and he just can't "change vocal cords" and be ready to go. That's why I see him leaving in the future, not because his singing is bad or anything like that, but I assume he would like to have a well deserved break after decades of touring or he could badly damage his voice. That's not something a singer would want, if you ask me.
As of Jordan, I don't see him as a member of DT untill the end either, not because of not being able to play the parts anymore or anything like that, but rather due to his age (he's like 10 years older than JP) and he seems like the guy who would like to work with other people and explore different musical styles before retiring, and there's nothing wrong with that.
With either case, I see the band continuing anyway. Imo, if there's JP and JM, DT will still exist no matter what. I mean, just look at JP's solo career. He always says he's so focused and inmersed with DT that he never finds time to record his second solo album. It's no surprise that DT is his priority and he will probably try keep it alive untill he decides to retire himself.
And, for those people saying that DT could not work without either Jordan or James, I'm sure lots of people said the same thing of Portnoy and look where are we now :biggrin:
And, just to clarify again, by no means I want either James or Jordan to quit, it is just how I think things could go in a few years.
-
James seems very happy in DT, always has, and The Astonishing was basically his crowning achievement. Will he have to adjust as he ages? Sure. They all will. Does that mean he'll leave or be replaced? I find it highly unlikely. If he hasn't left or been replaced by now, I doubt he will in the future, unless due to health reasons or family reasons. I certainly don't think it'll be due to the simple fact that he can no longer sing the way he did twenty years ago. It isn't at all difficult to think that he'll be in the band until they retire, especially if things continue to sail smoothly.
Besides, can any of you really picture JP saying "James, we're family, we've been thru everything together, but since you can no longer sing the high over-the-top parts from our older material, we're bringing in this other guy who is way younger, and can get the job done." Seriously? I can't. That's like telling your wife "Hey babe, I know we've been thru a lot together, but...you really aren't hot anymore, so, I'm going to start banging this other chick, but don't worry - we can still be friends." I just don't see this kind of scenario happening.
Honestly, if any of them were to leave at this point, I think the most likely would be JR or MM. And, between those two, I'd say MM. You can tell that it's basically just a job for him. I'm not saying he doesn't enjoy it or take it seriously, but compared to the others, he hasn't spent over half a lifetime cultivating this band, turning his vision into a reality. Of all of them, he's the guy who has invested the least amount of time and effort. Dream Theater is obviously much more special and meaningful to JP, JLB, and JM than it is for Mangini. So, for that reason, I definitely wouldn't be surprised (at all) if he were to call it quits after a few more albums/tours; maybe even sooner.
Jordan for the most part seems to enjoy being in DT, but is hard to read sometimes. The problem is, he's such a monster player, and he doesn't really get to use or explore his full potential in DT. His joining the band certainly took them to a whole new level, but since then, he has still had to work within certain set parameters. For this reason, and also due to his stern hard-to-read nature, I've often wondered if he really is happy in DT. I definitely wouldn't be surprised if he eventually decided he'd like to retire from the band in order to pursue other avenues. Sort of like "Okay guys, I've really enjoyed it, we've had a great run, but I think I'm ready to move on while I still can." Anyway, that's my take on things.
-
JLB's stage presence has literally never bothered me either way, in fact over the years I've found it to be a refreshing approach. He understands that at certain times, the focus should be on other guys during a DT show, and he embraces that by not trying to front man it up every second.
It's all about the replacement. If they found someone who could pull off the vocals live, and at the same time engage the crowd (something JLB essentially doesn't do), I could see a lot of people not minding.
I've got to say; I've never really understood this criticism against JLB. I've seen it before, just don't get it. I can understand people criticizing his singing, but as far as his stage presence is concerned, I've never had a problem with it. People say he's not a good frontman, or that he doesn't engage the crowd. What would make him more engaging?
EXACTLY!
Do people want him running to each side of the sage saying, "Scream for me, Long Beach!" or pull out an "I can't hear ya!"?
He's not the greatest "frontman" per say, but having an Ozzy (or even a Steve Stone) as a frontman just wouldn't work. Besides, like James's voice, he has a unique stage persona, too. Dry Canadian wit, laid back attitude when he needs it, saves up energy for passionate vocal performances...I think how he is as a frontman is perfect.
-
I would be very happy if Labrie will perform in this tour like 2011:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49w2D8c0ldo
-
In regard to James engaging the crowd and being a "frontman," he doesn't need to do more. Dream Theater has been, and always will be, about the musicianship. It's not a frontman-driven band. It's a music-driven band. And when you have that kind of band, the singer just needs to do his job.
I'm not saying James should ignore the audience. He should just do what he does. I think any expectation placed on him by fans to be something more misses the point to a degree. Dream Theater is not, and never was, a band predicated on the charisma of their singer. They let the virtuoso performances speak for themselves. And still do. And James, at 54(?) does that. He sings, he enjoys it, and the band amaze. That's what they've always done, and been pretty successful at it.
Sure, I like a commanding frontman (sorry about the QR references, but its hard not for me to use them as a comparison). Geoff Tate from the early years through Promised Land was a compelling frontman. Huge presence. Bruce Dickinson -- another huge presence. James isn't like those guys. And he fits Dream Theater perfectly just the way he is.
-
What is this crazy place?
-
It's all about the replacement. If they found someone who could pull off the vocals live, and at the same time engage the crowd (something JLB essentially doesn't do), I could see a lot of people not minding.
I've got to say; I've never really understood this criticism against JLB. I've seen it before, just don't get it. I can understand people criticizing his singing, but as far as his stage presence is concerned, I've never had a problem with it. People say he's not a good frontman, or that he doesn't engage the crowd. What would make him more engaging?
Totally agree.
I've been at the Rome gig on the 30th and he was as engaging as he could be, asking people to sing the choruses and the choirs, encouraging the crowd in the theatre to stand up, having his little bits of small talk.
Best part was during Take The Time, where he asked everyone to speak the italian line right after "I can see much clearer now I'm blind". He even smiled when the crowd replied.
He was also a lot more theatrical in the I&W songs, and tried to play around with the vocal parts and gestures a bit.
I feel like he generally tries to give meaning to the things he sings, whether via vocal interpretations or theatrical gestures, and often seeks the crowd's feedback. He's not trying to steal the show, overshadow the other components or anything, he's just a perfect fit for DT.
-
It's all about the replacement. If they found someone who could pull off the vocals live, and at the same time engage the crowd (something JLB essentially doesn't do), I could see a lot of people not minding.
I've got to say; I've never really understood this criticism against JLB. I've seen it before, just don't get it. I can understand people criticizing his singing, but as far as his stage presence is concerned, I've never had a problem with it. People say he's not a good frontman, or that he doesn't engage the crowd. What would make him more engaging?
Totally agree.
I've been at the Rome gig on the 30th and he was as engaging as he could be, asking people to sing the choruses and the choirs, encouraging the crowd in the theatre to stand up, having his little bits of small talk.
Best part was during Take The Time, where he asked everyone to speak the italian line right after "I can see much clearer now I'm blind". He even smiled when the crowd replied.
He was also a lot more theatrical in the I&W songs, and tried to play around with the vocal parts and gestures a bit.
I feel like he generally tries to give meaning to the things he sings, whether via vocal interpretations or theatrical gestures, and often seeks the crowd's feedback. He's not trying to steal the show, overshadow the other components or anything, he's just a perfect fit for DT.
I was at the Rome gig too, and I agree, he seemed pretty into it - especially as the night went on.
-
I was at the Rome gig too, and I agree, he seemed pretty into it - especially as the night went on.
I've also never had a problem with his stage presence, I think it's perfect as it is. His singing, though, hasn't been that good for the last couple years/tours (probably since the 2015 tour) :sad: I really like him as part of the band, his vocals and overall contributions to DT, but seeing videos for the TA tour and now the last couple shows in Italy, he just can't reach lots of the notes and his phrasing is odd :-\
-
I was at the Rome gig too, and I agree, he seemed pretty into it - especially as the night went on.
I've also never had a problem with his stage presence, I think it's perfect as it is. His singing, though, hasn't been that good for the last couple years/tours (probably since the 2015 tour) :sad: I really like him as part of the band, his vocals and overall contributions to DT, but seeing videos for the TA tour and now the last couple shows in Italy, he just can't reach lots of the notes and his phrasing is odd :-\
He did pretty well on the ADToE and self-titled tours, and even sounded downright awesome at times. On The Astonishing tour, however, he definitely struggled a ton. We'll see how this tour pans out for him. Singing the Images and Words material was rough for him in a few spots, but overall, not too bad. Same goes for A Change of Seasons.
-
I was at the Rome gig too, and I agree, he seemed pretty into it - especially as the night went on.
I've also never had a problem with his stage presence, I think it's perfect as it is. His singing, though, hasn't been that good for the last couple years/tours (probably since the 2015 tour) :sad: I really like him as part of the band, his vocals and overall contributions to DT, but seeing videos for the TA tour and now the last couple shows in Italy, he just can't reach lots of the notes and his phrasing is odd :-\
He did pretty well on the ADToE and self-titled tours, and even sounded downright awesome at times. On The Astonishing tour, however, he definitely struggled a ton. We'll see how this tour pans out for him. Singing the Images and Words material was rough for him in a few spots, but overall, not too bad. Same goes for A Change of Seasons.
Same case as in the TA tour, he seems to be struggling with certain sections from different songs. That middle section from TTT, for example, sounded awful, just like that section from Lord Nafaryus.
Again, not a Labrie hater here, but we can't deny he's been having a hard time in live performances for the last couple of years :sad:
-
I was at the Rome gig too, and I agree, he seemed pretty into it - especially as the night went on.
I've also never had a problem with his stage presence, I think it's perfect as it is. His singing, though, hasn't been that good for the last couple years/tours (probably since the 2015 tour) :sad: I really like him as part of the band, his vocals and overall contributions to DT, but seeing videos for the TA tour and now the last couple shows in Italy, he just can't reach lots of the notes and his phrasing is odd :-\
He did pretty well on the ADToE and self-titled tours, and even sounded downright awesome at times. On The Astonishing tour, however, he definitely struggled a ton. We'll see how this tour pans out for him. Singing the Images and Words material was rough for him in a few spots, but overall, not too bad. Same goes for A Change of Seasons.
Same case as in the TA tour, he seems to be struggling with certain sections from different songs. That middle section from TTT, for example, sounded awful, just like that section from Lord Nafaryus.
Again, not a Labrie hater here, but we can't deny he's been having a hard time in live performances for the last couple of years :sad:
Check out the clips from the Zurich show - he sounded pretty damn awesome throughout.
-
In certain parts he became more comfortable at the Zurich gig, but TTT definitely stayed out of reach.
-
I don't see him improving drastically, but maybe he'll find a comfort zone as the tour rolls on instead of trying to force notes he knows he can't hit with that same force.
-
I'm perfectly OK if "the unbroken spirit" section gets rid of again. It's is so hard to sing in that age. Even in his prime there is clips that he struggled a bit. Why forcing it to the stage?
-
I was at the Rome gig too, and I agree, he seemed pretty into it - especially as the night went on.
I've also never had a problem with his stage presence, I think it's perfect as it is. His singing, though, hasn't been that good for the last couple years/tours (probably since the 2015 tour) :sad: I really like him as part of the band, his vocals and overall contributions to DT, but seeing videos for the TA tour and now the last couple shows in Italy, he just can't reach lots of the notes and his phrasing is odd :-\
He did pretty well on the ADToE and self-titled tours, and even sounded downright awesome at times. On The Astonishing tour, however, he definitely struggled a ton. We'll see how this tour pans out for him. Singing the Images and Words material was rough for him in a few spots, but overall, not too bad. Same goes for A Change of Seasons.
Same case as in the TA tour, he seems to be struggling with certain sections from different songs. That middle section from TTT, for example, sounded awful, just like that section from Lord Nafaryus.
Again, not a Labrie hater here, but we can't deny he's been having a hard time in live performances for the last couple of years :sad:
Check out the clips from the Zurich show - he sounded pretty damn awesome throughout.
Are you legally deaf?
No, are you an asshole?
Yes. At least one of us admits what we are.
Okay, both of you guys obviously need a break from the forums if you cannot address issues in a more respectful manner--both toward each other and, Prog Snob specifically, toward the band. Because this sort of thing has become too common, and I have gotten complaints about these posts and some others that I am going to look into, I feel I have no choice but to temporarily ban the two of you and warn you that further posts along these lines may result in being banned permanently from the community.
I feel the need to remind us all of the rules and to put them into perspective. As relevant to this issue:
12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated. Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it is constructive and does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc.
I think most of us who have been here any length of time should be able to draw the line between fair critique and criticism that crosses the line. As we so often say, it isn't necessarily what you say, but how you say it.
I feel that it bears repeating that nobody on this site or even the band members themselves feel that they are perfect or that they are beyond any critique or criticism whatsoever. But that said, critique should be tactful and should be fair, both in content and in tone. Keep in mind that, even though the band members are public figures and have put themselves and their performances out there in the public domain, and even though this is a discussion forum where we are allowed to discuss all points of view, that doesn't mean anything and everything goes and that discussion can just be a "free-for-all." And that doesn't mean that comments that, while they might technically appear to be in compliance with the rules, aren't still out of bounds because they go too far and unfairly critique people who are artists and actual human beings who perform for our enjoyment. So please keep these things in mind when posting. This forum mostly gets that. But every now and then, we start to get too loose and toe the line too closely, and I and the moderators need to remind.
-
Thank you, Bosk. The constant criticism as of late towards the band or other forumers has become very heavy and painful. Honestly, I love this forum, but if this trend continues at such a rate, I think I'm gonna forget it for a while. I don't want it to turn into 5/8.
B.Lee
-
My feeling is that YouTube is the main concern for critique against LaBrie, and that could be a fair view since it better captures the actual sound at times. But these threads always comes up and I remember being so worried seeing them live at 2008 because I thought LaBrie wouldn't be good enough. I saw YouTube videos and read comments that made my view very clear about what I should expect. I finally saw the concert and it was amazing. Couldn't find a single complain about the performance. Of course the live sound makes it a bit blurred out and maybe my brain even fills in some stuff, but that's fine. I was perfectly happy with the high notes.
This has been my experience every single time. I always get tricked to think LaBrie is worse and can't sing anymore every time a new tour is coming, but it always sounds really good live. Not perfect at all times, but really good.
The Asthonishing studio recording is the best vocal performance from LaBrie in years. I still love those high notes and live I had just minor issues with it (The Asthonishing tour is actually first time I heard some bad tones live).
So basically I would like them to continue with the vocal range similar to that of TA. LaBrie's emotional voice is wonderful and the high notes is still a highlight :)
-
Well, for a YouTube video that proves how James can still be excellent, check Breaking All Illusions from Milan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZksIow4BJ0
From start to finish he's basically perfect. Power, emotion, clarity with the high notes, everything. I noticed it immediately at the gig and the video proves I was not just caught in the moment, but I was hearing good!
-
Well, for a YouTube video that proves how James can still be excellent, check Breaking All Illusions from Milan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZksIow4BJ0
From start to finish he's basically perfect. Power, emotion, clarity with the high notes, everything. I noticed it immediately at the gig and the video proves I was not just caught in the moment, but I was hearing good!
Thanks for this, awesome video :metal
It's funny how Youtube comments never stop being negative. When James hit high notes, there's something wrong with the tone. When the band downtune to makes it easier for him to sound more clear, he isn't a good singer anymore and he should quit (because number of high notes equals how good the singer is). I won't say he is perfect. TTT sounds pretty bad to my ears but I don't expect him to kill it on 25th anniversary.
BTW downtuned ACOS sounds pretty dope.
-
Yeah I checked out Surrounded as well and think it's sounds really good! Some awesome high notes in there :metal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv43EJelC0I
-
Well, for a YouTube video that proves how James can still be excellent, check Breaking All Illusions from Milan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZksIow4BJ0
From start to finish he's basically perfect. Power, emotion, clarity with the high notes, everything. I noticed it immediately at the gig and the video proves I was not just caught in the moment, but I was hearing good!
Thanks for this, awesome video :metal
It's funny how Youtube comments never stop being negative. When James hit high notes, there's something wrong with the tone. When the band downtune to makes it easier for him to sound more clear, he isn't a good singer anymore and he should quit (because number of high notes equals how good the singer is). I won't say he is perfect. TTT sounds pretty bad to my ears but I don't expect him to kill it on 25th anniversary.
BTW downtuned ACOS sounds pretty dope.
Yup. People turning live singing into an olympic competition.
-
Well, for a YouTube video that proves how James can still be excellent, check Breaking All Illusions from Milan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZksIow4BJ0
From start to finish he's basically perfect. Power, emotion, clarity with the high notes, everything. I noticed it immediately at the gig and the video proves I was not just caught in the moment, but I was hearing good!
James sounds great in this video!
-
I really hope he takes care of himself on the upcoming tour and doesn't push too hard if the high stuff just isn't coming for him. I know they aren't going to down tune, but I wouldn't have a problem with rearranging some of the highest vocal melodies to help him out. Most likely, it'll be there for him some nights, and some nights it won't. I wonder what folks would prefer - would you rather he went for the F#, for example, and risked that he doesn't pull it off in order to have the chance that he does? Or would you rather him just forego it in favor of something that's guaranteed? I'm not sure how I'd answer my own question. Thinking logically, it would make more sense for him to arrange it so he doesn't have to reach that high and so that what he does sing will sound really good. On the other hand, I've seen him hit the F# and it's awesome. I've also seen him miss, kind of screaming it, and while it's not great... it doesn't ruin it for me either. I suppose as long as he isn't hurting his vocal cords, I'd be game for him to try it. But if he's really just struggling throughout the whole I&W set - then he should come up with something that'll sound good and that helps him out (and the band should support him in that).
Which (sort of) leads to the discussion of whether the band should write really high vocal melodies on future studio albums, even if they know it can't be reproduced live. I would say yes, but. He should be able to hit it pretty reliably in the studio, it shouldn't be used extensively (as you said, there are so many facets to his voice), and again they should be willing to rearrange it live if need be. As someone else mentioned, I too love that you can expect to hear just about any DT song at one of their shows and I don't want them to do "album only" tracks, but would be fine if some tracks are different live than on the album.
I'd rather he take care of himself and not push it if he can't do it. I've no problem with LaBrie changing it up so he can sound good live.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snn0TYw8ghU
7:12 mark.. James is on FIRE!
-
I don't know dude, that was a pretty rough performance overall.
-
I don't know dude, that was a pretty rough performance overall.
BUT DER F#5 F5!!
It sounded good at the start, but approaching the four minute mark onwards it starts to get pitchy as the range gets higher.
-
James might be stressed by the pressure of having to nail that note every night. By the time he does it (and he does it fine most of the time), he looks like "there, I did it. Can I go now?" :lol
-
I bet by now he regrets that part, especially since it's in the middle of a long instrumental section. I mean, it's not like it's the "If there's a pensive fear" section of Take the Time, which is at the very heart of the song, it's just some vocalizing in the "middle of nowhere".
I'm not saying they should do it, or that they would ever entertain the idea, but if James should simply stay backstage the whole time and either JP or JR do on their instrument that part, would the song really lose anything substantial?
-
If James should simply stay backstage the whole time and either JP or JR do on their instrument that part, would the song really lose anything substantial?
Absolutely. That section is the climax of the song (and IMO, Images and Words as a whole) and the vocal is an essential part of that.
-
If James should simply stay backstage the whole time and either JP or JR do on their instrument that part, would the song really lose anything substantial?
Absolutely. That section is the climax of the song (and IMO, Images and Words as a whole) and the vocal is an essential part of that.
100% agreed. That part is the climax of the entire album.
-
If James should simply stay backstage the whole time and either JP or JR do on their instrument that part, would the song really lose anything substantial?
Absolutely. That section is the climax of the song (and IMO, Images and Words as a whole) and the vocal is an essential part of that.
100% agreed. That part is the climax of the entire album.
Yeah even if LaBrie can't nail it I still want to hear him give it his best shot.
-
So, I'm listening to the Happy Holidays 2013 CD right now. Granted, there was probably a decent amount of overdubbing going on so it might paint JLB's vocal performance in a better light than is realistic, but man, as recent as 2013 he sang with such power and ease, even really high stuff. The last two tours in contrast (TA and IAW), there's virtually no song where he doesn't struggle.
I don't know. I think maybe it's time to take the hiatus MP was talking about, and then think about what they want to do. I feel by performing in this state DT are doing themselves a big disservice.
-
So, I'm listening to the Happy Holidays 2013 CD right now. Granted, there was probably a decent amount of overdubbing going on so it might paint JLB's vocal performance in a better light than is realistic, but man, as recent as 2013 he sang with such power and ease, even really high stuff. The last two tours in contrast (TA and IAW), there's virtually no song where he doesn't struggle.
I don't know. I think maybe it's time to take the hiatus MP was talking about, and then think about what they want to do. I feel by performing in this state DT are doing themselves a big disservice.
Pretty sure there was ZERO overdubs on Happy Holidays. Only pitch correction on Another Day (and nothing else).
Here's an AMAZING Under A Glass Moon performance from 2011- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSPsS4D6T9U
And this is the (equally awesome) one they chose for the CD- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frlvTDonme4
-
So, I'm listening to the Happy Holidays 2013 CD right now. Granted, there was probably a decent amount of overdubbing going on so it might paint JLB's vocal performance in a better light than is realistic, but man, as recent as 2013 he sang with such power and ease, even really high stuff.
Can't speak for every show of the tour, but as recently as December 5th, 2016, when I saw them last, he sang with plenty of power and ease. He was fantastic that night.
-
And he was consistently good on the 4th of February in Italy, particuarly nailing from beginning to end Breaking All Illusions.
-
So, I'm listening to the Happy Holidays 2013 CD right now. Granted, there was probably a decent amount of overdubbing going on so it might paint JLB's vocal performance in a better light than is realistic, but man, as recent as 2013 he sang with such power and ease, even really high stuff. The last two tours in contrast (TA and IAW), there's virtually no song where he doesn't struggle.
I don't know. I think maybe it's time to take the hiatus MP was talking about, and then think about what they want to do. I feel by performing in this state DT are doing themselves a big disservice.
I don't think they need a big break or something like that, they just need to do less touring or just less consecutive dates, so that his voice can rest more/better. That way he would improve a lot. I don't hink their current big production/budget would allow them to do either, though.
I still think it's very possible that, after a couple more albums/tours, either James or Jordan will retire from DT after so many years of hard touring. I say it could be James because he's been pushing his voice over the years with a lot of concerts and that'll eventually cath with him, or it could be Jordan because he's the oldest of them and, in a few more years, he'll be at his late 60s.
-
I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.
As a vocalist I think the best solution is to not ride him so hard on tour. Too many dates without proper rest. He could be 20 years younger and that would still be a problem.
The human voice can only be pushed so far. If he had more rest he would probably still be able to bring it at a high level. I'm the same age as James and don't play more that 7 or 8 times a month but if I get pushed to much beyond that my voice loses a lot.
-
I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.
As a vocalist I think the best solution is to not ride him so hard on tour. Too many dates without proper rest. He could be 20 years younger and that would still be a problem.
The human voice can only be pushed so far. If he had more rest he would probably still be able to bring it at a high level. I'm the same age as James and don't play more that 7 or 8 times a month but if I get pushed to much beyond that my voice loses a lot.
This.
-
I dunno about letting him write all the vocal melodies, songs tend to have chord progressions built around the vocal melodies... Unless JP just deletes all the vocal melodies after he finishes the songs and then lets JLB do his own thing.
-
I dunno about letting him write all the vocal melodies, songs tend to have chord progressions built around the vocal melodies... Unless JP just deletes all the vocal melodies after he finishes the songs and then lets JLB do his own thing.
As far as I know, with rare exception, DT write all of the music to the songs and then write the vocal melodies around the chord progressions.
-
I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.
As a vocalist I think the best solution is to not ride him so hard on tour. Too many dates without proper rest. He could be 20 years younger and that would still be a problem.
The human voice can only be pushed so far. If he had more rest he would probably still be able to bring it at a high level. I'm the same age as James and don't play more that 7 or 8 times a month but if I get pushed to much beyond that my voice loses a lot.
A combination of both would be the best solution imo. But I don't think that will ever happen. DT just isn't a very singer-oriented band and they probably also can't afford more days of rest. BTW, the schedule for the next leg looks frightening ...
-
I don't see any schedule for any next leg of the tour. Source?
-
??? How can someone provide a source for something that has not been released yet? I don't understand.
-
??? How can someone provide a source for something that has not been released yet? I don't understand.
In the post before that, CB said the schedule for the next leg looks frightening. I was just wondering where he saw the schedule for the next leg.. I haven't seen or heard of anything about the next leg, I'm assuming North America.
-
I don't see any schedule for any next leg of the tour. Source?
Sorry, I didn't mean to cause confusion. I just meant the 2nd tour in Europe, starting April 18th in Birmingham.
-
Oh ok, thanks for clearing that up. I misunderstood, my bad.
-
I don't see any schedule for any next leg of the tour. Source?
Maybe that's the frightening part
-
Holy cramoly, I just looked at the upcoming dates, yeah. April 18,19,20,22,23,25,26,28,29, 30. That's almost two weeks, with only 3 days off.
-
I hope James has learned sign language. That's how he should communicate when not on-stage! Yikes!
-
The voice is a tricky thing. I'm not a professional, but I do sing, and my wife is a professionally trained vocalist. From all I have learned, and what she and her vocal coach have said, it comes down to this -- what's best depends on the individual. James knows what is best for his voice. I am sure, now being in the band for 25 years, he has had some say and input into how the tour is spaced, and what is being done to assist him.
I know vocalists whose voices get stronger and better the more they sing (properly -- which has a lot to do with it). Others, particularly those that sing from their throats, have a harder time with that. I mean, look at a vocal freak like Glenn Hughes. All those drugs he did, and he steps on stage every night and just destroys people. It's really an individual thing. James knows what's best for him, and I'm sure if he felt like the tour schedule was a problem, he would have voiced that. It's not like he has no say at all -- he's the singer.
Holy cramoly, I just looked at the upcoming dates, yeah. April 18,19,20,22,23,25,26,28,29, 30. That's almost two weeks, with only 3 days off.
That's not as bad as it looks. Three days in a row (which is the most he likely would want to do), a day off, two days in a row (fine), a day off , two days in a row, a day off, and then three days in a row. For a guy like James, who sings with good technique, and works on keeping himself healthy, that's not bad at all.
The problem I've seen over time is folks, as mentioned above, that sing with their throat. If you're a throaty singer, you're going to struggle. But James isn't. He'll be fine, and he'll be what he is (he has always been a bit hit and miss at times live). The DT set is challenging, but James knows his voice. he'll be fine.
-
Hopefully, he will have shaken his bug and eaten his Wheaties. :lol It's a demanding stretch for sure, but he can pull it off if he is healthy.
Again, keep in mind the economics of the situation. That's why they do it with so little rest in between gigs. To use round numbers, let's say it costs a band like DT $100,000 per day to be on the road, and that includes travel, gear, food, lodging, crew wages, etc. And without divulging specifics, I have it on good authority that a band that plays the types of shows DT plays actually pays MORE than $100k per night on average, but just keeping it to round numbers here for sake of discussion. If we assume a travel day on either end of the schedule, that's 15 days, which comes to $1.5 million in expenses for that little 2-week jaunt. For international travel, I'd actually put it somewhere between $2M and $2.5M. But still, that's a HUGE amount of expense. Barring health issues, they have consistently demonstrated that, although it is hard, they can pull off that kind of schedule. In this day and age where it is so expensive to tour, it just doesn't make sense for a band to add another half million in expenses for just a few more days, especially when that $500k going out the door is for rest days when no money is coming in the door.
As said in the post above, James knows what is best for him. And if he has a problem with the schedule, I'm sure he will speak up. But he knows the realities of touring and is a realist. I can guarantee you won't find him sitting in the back of the tour bus wringing his hands about how hard the tour is. He is a pro and will step up to the plate and bring it each night to the best of his ability.
-
Yeah, I agree. The schedule will have been economically driven. Sure, management will have had a certain measure of "well, they can't play for two weeks straight without rest", but I put the chances to virtually zero that James could have just walked in and said "can we take out these two gigs so I can have more rest?"
We'll see. I personally feel they're pushing him too hard, especially for this type of tour. They're playing 3 hours each night, with material he is struggling with. It doesn't matter how much of a professional you are, you can't push the envelope night after night.
-
Hopefully, he will have shaken his bug and eaten his Wheaties. :lol It's a demanding stretch for sure, but he can pull it off if he is healthy.
Again, keep in mind the economics of the situation. That's why they do it with so little rest in between gigs. To use round numbers, let's say it costs a band like DT $100,000 per day to be on the road, and that includes travel, gear, food, lodging, crew wages, etc. And without divulging specifics, I have it on good authority that a band that plays the types of shows DT plays actually pays MORE than $100k per night on average, but just keeping it to round numbers here for sake of discussion. If we assume a travel day on either end of the schedule, that's 15 days, which comes to $1.5 million in expenses for that little 2-week jaunt. For international travel, I'd actually put it somewhere between $2M and $2.5M. But still, that's a HUGE amount of expense. Barring health issues, they have consistently demonstrated that, although it is hard, they can pull off that kind of schedule. In this day and age where it is so expensive to tour, it just doesn't make sense for a band to add another half million in expenses for just a few more days.
As said in the post above, James knows what is best for him. And if he has a problem with the schedule, I'm sure he will speak up. But he knows the realities of touring and is a realist. I can guarantee you won't find him sitting in the back of the tour bus wringing his hands about how hard the tour is. He is a pro and will step up to the plate and bring it each night to the best of his ability.
Can you also give a rough estimate for the income/profit they make?
-
Yeah, I agree. The schedule will have been economically driven. Sure, management will have had a certain measure of "well, they can't play for two weeks straight without rest", but I put the chances to virtually zero that James could have just walked in and said "can we take out these two gigs so I can have more rest?"
We'll see. I personally feel they're pushing him too hard, especially for this type of tour. They're playing 3 hours each night, with material he is struggling with. It doesn't matter how much of a professional you are, you can't push the envelope night after night.
In a perfect world, I'd says 2 days on, one day off, would be ideal. But economically, it doesn't pencil out. If James had a problem with this particular schedule, he'd voice it. Perhaps he does, but feels he can handle it, and I am sure he can. One thing I think needs to be considered as well -- Dream Theater's songs are also longer. So his voice gets breaks a lot of other singers do not. He'll be fine. But it's teetering on the edge of pushing the envelope for him, for sure.
-
I think it should also be noted that "vocal rest" for a singer always being a good thing is a myth. As a singer, and as a personal witness to many other singers, I can say that the voice strengthens with exercise much like any muscle. Not that it can't be pushed too far; there's definitely still an extent which is too much within too short of a time period, and that amount totally depends on the singer. Some thrive from a heavier balance, some from a lighter balance. But nonetheless a balance which relies greatly on the consistent usage of your full voice.
I believe if you rested your voice completely for two weeks, did a 45 minute warm up and walked right on stage to sing the IW&B set, you'd damage and wear your vocal cords MUCH more than if you practiced singing the set once every day for 1-2 weeks then did the show.
-
I think it should also be noted that "vocal rest" for a singer always being a good thing is a myth. As a singer, and as a personal witness to many other singers, I can say that the voice strengthens with exercise much like any muscle. Not that it can't be pushed too far; there's definitely still an extent which is too much within too short of a time period, and that amount totally depends on the singer. Some thrive from a heavier balance, some from a lighter balance. But nonetheless a balance which relies greatly on the consistent usage of your full voice.
I believe if you rested your voice completely for two weeks, did a 45 minute warm up and walked right on stage to sing the IW&B set, you'd damage and wear your vocal cords MUCH more than if you practiced singing the set once every day for 1-2 weeks then did the show.
Bingo. And that builds on what I was saying above as well. Having a day off is good, but repetition becomes the voice's best friend as long as it is done carefully. Good post!
-
I think it should also be noted that "vocal rest" for a singer always being a good thing is a myth. As a singer, and as a personal witness to many other singers, I can say that the voice strengthens with exercise much like any muscle. Not that it can't be pushed too far; there's definitely still an extent which is too much within too short of a time period, and that amount totally depends on the singer. Some thrive from a heavier balance, some from a lighter balance. But nonetheless a balance which relies greatly on the consistent usage of your full voice.
I believe if you rested your voice completely for two weeks, did a 45 minute warm up and walked right on stage to sing the IW&B set, you'd damage and wear your vocal cords MUCH more than if you practiced singing the set once every day for 1-2 weeks then did the show.
Bingo. And that builds on what I was saying above as well. Having a day off is good, but repetition becomes the voice's best friend as long as it is done carefully. Good post!
I hope you're right. I'm not a singer, I don't know how much vocal rest is needed. But last year, when they had to cancel the Trieste show because (Jordan's words) James had the flu and no voice, JLB later posted on his Facebook page "My voice needed a rest far too many shows in a row". I don't doubt he had the flu (MM had it some days later and played a show being very sick) but I wonder if it was the flu or the "too many shows" that ruined JLBs voice for some days. Or perhaps the flu hit him that hard because he was worn out from doing too many shows?
-
Most likely the flu and not enough rest.
-
In both the DT12 and ADToE tours James I noticed James improved more and more throughout the tours. His voice got stronger and it sounded like he could push it more the later into the tour they got. I'm not buying that he needs a rest, i'm sure it's just the remnant of his flu he is still dealing with. Can sometimes take weeks to get back the 'holes' in a vocalists total range that they lost with illness.
-
I'd say they're moving backward.
-
I'd say they're moving backward.
Care to elaborate?
-
Most likely the flu and not enough rest.
This. It's gotta be hard to sing with the flu, particularly if you get hit with the worst symptoms in the middle of a longer stretch of back-to-back gigs. I mean, he's human. And it's not like a cold, where guys like James can sing around it (if it is just sinus stuff, you can generally get up into your head voice and be fine, unless it is a head cold). The flu, the puking, the chills, it's gotta be near impossible to sing a set like that on little rest, on back to back nights, with major flu symptoms. I think that incident referred to probably had more to do with the symptoms COMBINED with being in the middle of a stretch. Just a perfect storm...
James knows what's best for his voice. He's been doing it professionally for more than 30 years. :)
-
Most likely the flu and not enough rest.
This. It's gotta be hard to sing with the flu, particularly if you get hit with the worst symptoms in the middle of a longer stretch of back-to-back gigs. I mean, he's human. And it's not like a cold, where guys like James can sing around it (if it is just sinus stuff, you can generally get up into your head voice and be fine, unless it is a head cold). The flu, the puking, the chills, it's gotta be near impossible to sing a set like that on little rest, on back to back nights, with major flu symptoms. I think that incident referred to probably had more to do with the symptoms COMBINED with being in the middle of a stretch. Just a perfect storm...
Yeah, it just depends. And it hits different people differently. When I get a cold, the flu, or allergies, it almost always seems to go to my chest and give me a cough. And the problem with that is, I can't get the breath support that I need to sing properly. And while I am nowhere near the singer James is, I can easily fake my way through a few hours of fairly challenging covers with my covers band when I am in good health. But when the chest/cough issues hit, it severely hamstrings me, and I find it extremely challenging to get through even one set without cutting a bunch of songs that I know I can usually pull off with relative ease.
-
Just saw them few nights ago in Finland for the sixth time. Most of the time I was literally on the edge of my hoping that his voice doesn't break. I think the flu or something really hit him while on the road. He really struggled even with the more recent songs (https://youtu.be/iIWly530Smo?t=149). He was also drinking a lot of water. Felt kinda bad for him.
In general I'm now more of fan of his lower voice like in Astonishing and Dream Theater rather than his high register singing of the older records. They should really use it more. Wait for sleep really sounded nice that night (https://youtu.be/S-d6m0CZ4mY)!
I think they should make this their advantage and joke a little! And so should we as the fans. I hope their virtuosity and perfectionism is not their Achilles' heel.
-
When a guy in his 50s stands up there and does Images and Words in its entirety, plus an encore of ACOS, night after night, you tip your cap, and give a bunch of respect. He recorded that stuff in his 20s. Does JLB have off nights? Yes, sure. Does he catch a cold like anyone else? Yep. But the fact he is standing there, in the spotlight, giving it his all...mad respect. I&W is one of the hardest metal records to sing in history -- even for a tenor who is at the top of his game.
I am just as critical as anyone, and I hate it when the singer can't sing well for whatever reason, but personally, I'm inclined to give JLB a lot of leeway on this tour. The setlist is amazing, it is vocally challenging, and he's giving it his all. It'd be different if he was mailing in his performances, like some singers I will decline to mention. But he's not. He's going all out, and I have never respected JLB as much as I do now because of that.
-
I hope their virtuosity and perfectionism is not their Achilles' heel.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. The rest of the band is so damn near perfect each night on really difficult material to play that it makes the vocal mistakes stand out a lot more. It's kind of cool though to see the vocal appreciation in the MP Shattered Fortress thread since other vocalists have struggled as well with the material. It's not easy and the vocals are not the same as playing an instrument.
-
@anybody.listening: Don't get me wrong, of course (I think) we all appreciate and respect his commitment and skill. But, I sometimes find comments like yours (and others in this thread) a bit bewildering because they seem to venture into "participation medal" territory, where commitment is enough. DT isn't some loud punk band where the sound doesn't matter.
-
@anybody.listening: Don't get me wrong, of course (I think) we all appreciate and respect his commitment and skill. But, I sometimes find comments like yours (and others in this thread) a bit bewildering because they seem to venture into "participation medal" territory, where commitment is enough. DT isn't some loud punk band where the sound doesn't matter. So, I kinda feel sorry for the Oslo guys for getting that sort of performance. Again, there's nothing James can do about catching a cold; but the expectations are just also really high on a singer in DT.
Rumbo -- please, my screen name is clunky. Brian or AL is fine.
Your comment about being "participation medal" territory is a fair point to a degree. But at least from my personal standpoint (ask bosk, Scotty, anyone who has followed my posts over the years), I'm as critical of musicians as they come. But there's a huge difference between what James is doing, and what perhaps some other singers do. Some in a similar genre go out there and croak through a set, not giving a rat's ass what they sound like. JLB takes care of himself, takes care of his voice, and at the end of the day, he's spotty live. He knows it, we all know it. So why...pile on a 50-something year old guy singing one of the most difficult records to sing in the genre, that he recorded 30 years ago?
I don't know JLB, never met him before. But I guarantee you he, more than anyone, is his biggest critic. I'm all for fans like us wanting our favorite bands to play (and sing) well. We pay a lot of money to see bands and buy stuff. There's a high expectation. JLB more than anyone knows that, and he has, arguably, one of the most difficult jobs in the world performing what he performs.
I'm not in favor of participation medals, like you were saying. But I also like to be a realist -- he's not just showing up and cashing the check. He's busting his ass. And I think, given how easy the rest of DT makes it LOOK, people forget just how difficult to sing this record, sing most of DT's 90s material -- is.
Take a guy like Nathan James of TSO and Inglorious. The guy is other-worldly. A pure tenor, sounds amazing. His band opened for the Winery Dogs in the UK. Nathan would likely, night after night, find I&W a huge workout, and probably struggle here and there on some things. Nathan is 28, roughly the same age as JLB was when he recorded I&W. He's one of a handful of guys that can probably pull it off, and it still wouldn't be perfect. And for my money, Nathan James is the best singer out there right now. Dude can sing anything.
The point is, I think people instinctively know the difficulty level of what JLB is doing, but sometimes look past it, given the ease the rest of the band make the musical part of I&W look. (points to the whole virtuoso comment being an Achilles heel.) James is 53, and is working his ass off. Critiquing is important. But I'd just encourage people to remember just HOW DIFFICULT I&W is to sing, and then realize that James recorded that in his prime, and it is 25 years (and a lifetime of singing) later. It's incredibly hard. Unlike the rest of the band, who play mechanical instruments, James' is what it is.
And I realize everyone knows this -- not meaning at all to be condescending. Just pretty supportive of James in this regard. And people will tell you from the past, I've always been a big critic of James' singing overall.
-
It's a tough topic to discuss for sure. I mean, as I said, I'm with you to some degree; his work ethic is impeccable, and he really tries to make it work night after night.
At the same time, I feel he is being left in the dust by the other guys, who are just about as good as they were 25 years ago. True of course, you can't just go to your next Guitar Center and buy a new set of vocal chords. But the question at some point arises, at which point are you just no longer doing the music justice?
-
It's a tough topic to discuss for sure. I mean, as I said, I'm with you to some degree; his work ethic is impeccable, and he really tries to make it work night after night.
At the same time, I feel he is being left in the dust by the other guys, who are just about as good as they were 25 years ago. True of course, you can't just go to your next Guitar Center and by a new set of vocal chords. But the question at some point arises, at which point are you just no longer doing the music justice?
I am not the be all, end all (great song) on singers that are in their 50s that sing this type of stuff, but yeah, there are certain guys that still bring it live that are the same age who sing similar material (Kiske comes to mind immediately). But many have struggled, even guys like Michael Sweet, who is the closest to Labrie in terms of his sharper tone, who sings incredibly high parts.
I saw Stryper last year doing the 30th Anniversary Tour for To Hell With the Devil. Michael's voice was not good. Not on that stuff. He struggled, and it wasn't just my gig. He gave it his all, the songs were in the original key, and I found myself rooting for him, as opposed to criticizing. He obviously could do it in spots, but had a hard time keeping up through the whole record. Then when they switched to newer material, he nailed it, because it was written in his comfort zone.
All I'm saying is that while other singers may have aged a bit better, vocally, it isn't many. You asked "at what point are you just no longer doing the music justice?" Well, this could indeed be the last time we see more than a song of I&W ever performed because of that reason. So instead of being overly-critical, I guess I would rather just applaud him for what he's doing, and appreciate the fact he's giving it everything he has.
The only options are to not play that material live again (which I think is what is going to happen to a degree) or get a new singer. And DT's not going to do that. JLB is the voice of Dream Theater. Has been for 25 years. Unless he loses his mind like Tate and starts beating up JP and kicking MM's drums over, JLB isn't going anywhere.
So for me, I'm just going to appreciate what he's doing, warts and all, and tip the cap to someone who clearly works his ass off to give us the best performance he's capable of giving on such a difficult record to sing.
-
Rumbo -- please, my screen name is clunky. Brian or AL is fine.
Definitely call him AL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-gYOrU8bA
-
Rumbo -- please, my screen name is clunky. Brian or AL is fine.
Definitely call him AL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-gYOrU8bA
:rollin
-
The only options are to not play that material live again (which I think is what is going to happen to a degree) or get a new singer. And DT's not going to do that.
In my book, the idea of a year-long (JMX said it will last until the end of 2017) IAW tour is a bad idea, from exactly that perspective. I think it was born out of the mixed attendance of the TA tour, but from a performance point of view it doesn't make all that much sense. They already had retired TTT for a long time (I'm pretty sure partially because of vocal issues), so singing this song for a whole year seems not smart.
-
I think it was born out of the mixed attendance of the TA tour
I kind of feel the same way. Just look at the attendance for these shows. It's almost like a revival of DT from a live show perspective compared to 2016. I guess we can say "25th anniversary" and have a valid point, but they played the whole album for the 15th anniversary so I'm not sold it was necessary to do this, although as my favorite DT album and having not seen my favorite DT song live (LtL) I am glad they are doing it. I also think a lot of these songs may not be getting played much or at all anymore after this. Their catalogue is too big and strong to have to go back to these songs that JLB struggles with.
-
Rumbo -- please, my screen name is clunky. Brian or AL is fine.
Definitely call him AL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-gYOrU8bA
:clap:
-
I think it was born out of the mixed attendance of the TA tour
I kind of feel the same way. Just look at the attendance for these shows. It's almost like a revival of DT from a live show perspective compared to 2016. I guess we can say "25th anniversary" and have a valid point, but they played the whole album for the 15th anniversary so I'm not sold it was necessary to do this, although as my favorite DT album and having not seen my favorite DT song live (LtL) I am glad they are doing it. I also think a lot of these songs may not be getting played much or at all anymore after this. Their catalogue is too big and strong to have to go back to these songs that JLB struggles with.
I think they are just giving Images and Words its proper sendoff. They barely played it recently, not playing any song from the album in the AFTR tour and in the TA tour (except the last few shows). I think they won't touch most of the material again in the next tours.
-
Have to disagree. I think this was the ultimate sendoff of IAW:
https://youtu.be/TfLkE5PD1Rg
Listen to TTT. He was still able to sing it, at original pitch, no altered lines, no "barking".
-
That's not a sendoff when you can still sing it with ease. You say goodbye when it is obviously the last hurrah.
-
It's only a sendoff when you can't do it anymore :huh:
-
Have to disagree. I think this was the ultimate sendoff of IAW:
https://youtu.be/TfLkE5PD1Rg
Listen to TTT. He was still able to sing it, at original pitch, no altered lines, no "barking".
I think they should've been tuning down even back then.
-
The plan for this year was actually just to do a short leg in europe and asia/oz, and then be done.
When they announced that this leg would consist of doing Images and Words, the fans and promoters went absolutely nuts and it completely changed the direction for the band - where they now decided to do a full two legs of europe, a north american leg and an asian/oz leg in the fall, to be done by holidays.
It was not something they consciously did because they needed money (they did not lose money on the TA tour - while some promoters may have lost money, DT basically gets paid the fee agreed upon when theyre hired regardless of ticket sales).
All of this is covered in the JP/JM Interview I have coming up on the DT World soon-ish (i might publish the James interview beofre, since that is ready).
-
I think it was born out of the mixed attendance of the TA tour
I kind of feel the same way. Just look at the attendance for these shows. It's almost like a revival of DT from a live show perspective compared to 2016. I guess we can say "25th anniversary" and have a valid point, but they played the whole album for the 15th anniversary so I'm not sold it was necessary to do this, although as my favorite DT album and having not seen my favorite DT song live (LtL) I am glad they are doing it. I also think a lot of these songs may not be getting played much or at all anymore after this. Their catalogue is too big and strong to have to go back to these songs that JLB struggles with.
I'm glad I saw I&W twice this year, but I hope that in the future they will mostly play songs from the more recent era. They have enough GREAT songs in their repertoire that are perfect for JLBs voice, and they will always have if they, when writing new material, consider the strengths of his voice as it is now.
-
they did not lose money on the TA tour - while some promoters may have lost money, DT basically gets paid the fee agreed upon when theyre hired regardless of ticket sales
Just to comment on this, while that may be the nature of the engagement, all this comes down to is a delayed reaction to a bad tour. So, DT might not have immediately lost money, but for the next tour, promoters who lost money or barely broke even, will make sure they raise their fees accordingly to make sure they still make money. That cuts into DT's profits.
In market terms, a bad tour causes your market value to decrease, and the promoters view you as a higher risk booking, and will adjust their fees (or even their willingness to begin with) of your band's booking.
The current IAW tour may just as well be a means to stay in good standing with the promoters.
-
Why do you have to alqays insist every time you get that the TA tour is a financial loss despite people who have more intimate knowledge of the issue always saying that that is not the case?
-
they did not lose money on the TA tour - while some promoters may have lost money, DT basically gets paid the fee agreed upon when theyre hired regardless of ticket sales
Just to comment on this, while that may be the nature of the engagement, all this comes down to is a delayed reaction to a bad tour. So, DT might not have immediately lost money, but for the next tour, promoters who lost money or barely broke even, will make sure they raise their fees accordingly to make sure they still make money. That cuts into DT's profits.
In market terms, a bad tour causes your market value to decrease, and the promoters view you as a higher risk booking, and will adjust their fees (or even their willingness to begin with) of your band's booking.
The current IAW tour may just as well be a means to stay in good standing with the promoters.
And JLB is paying the price for that ...
-
they did not lose money on the TA tour - while some promoters may have lost money, DT basically gets paid the fee agreed upon when theyre hired regardless of ticket sales
Just to comment on this, while that may be the nature of the engagement, all this comes down to is a delayed reaction to a bad tour. So, DT might not have immediately lost money, but for the next tour, promoters who lost money or barely broke even, will make sure they raise their fees accordingly to make sure they still make money. That cuts into DT's profits.
In market terms, a bad tour causes your market value to decrease, and the promoters view you as a higher risk booking, and will adjust their fees (or even their willingness to begin with) of your band's booking.
The current IAW tour may just as well be a means to stay in good standing with the promoters.
Sorry, but no, you don't know what you are talking about on that issue.
-
Promoters need to make money. If they book half-empty venues, it hits their margin. In consequence, they are less willing to book said band again, or if so for a higher fee.
What part is wrong?
-
Several things about it are wrong. First, the assumption that promoters lost money on the tour. We don't know that. We can't know that. And if true, I doubt that it is true in more than a handful of markets they played in.
Second, even if your assumption could somehow be proven true, the model you proposed is too simplistic. It does not follow that a given promoter who broke even or lost on one tour is going to refuse to book the band on the next tour. That isn't how it works. If the losses are big enough, and if they repeat, yeah, maybe. But by itself, on a single tour, most promoters won't do that. If they cut too many big enough acts prematurely, word gets around the industry, and people stop working with them (except maybe in those rare markets where they are the only fish in the pond and have a stranglehold over that market such that you HAVE TO work with them).
Also...well, actually, forget the "also." There are a LOT of "also's" (variables) in the equation, many of which I don't even know. And that, again, is the problem with your argument. It is based on false assumptions, and it is too simplistic and doesn't take into account the many variables that are in place.
-
Noxon, looking forward to reading the interviews. Thank you.
-
I personally would like to see DT try a different singer. I've always liked the tone of James' voice, and think, as is, it would be fine on a more "Falling Into Infinity" tier sound, but they continue to write songs that would really benefit from a powerful singer. That is one reason why I'm still a bit baffled they decided to do a musical with their new album - very demanding for a singer who, at this point, could be adding primarily color and character to the sound, but here is tasked doing rock opera vocals.
It seems like DT have just continued to get heavier and more "metal" as I've continuously expected them to take things down a notch. Can't say I blame them. A lot of fans really, really like it. And JP's shredder status is so central to interest in the band, from what I can tell. Personally, I think this kind of music would just sound better with a different singer. But I'd also rather the complete opposite - DT get softer, and start channeling Floyd moreso than Iron Maiden. Do something that allows us to appreciate the tonal qualities of JLB's voice, rather than something that continuously has us asking ourselves "can he really hit that one?"
-
Noxon, looking forward to reading the interviews. Thank you.
Same. Thanks for doing it, both to you and to the band.
-
I personally would like to see DT try a different singer. I've always liked the tone of James' voice, and think, as is, it would be fine on a more "Falling Into Infinity" tier sound, but they continue to write songs that would really benefit from a powerful singer. That is one reason why I'm still a bit baffled they decided to do a musical with their new album - very demanding for a singer who, at this point, could be adding primarily color and character to the sound, but here is tasked doing rock opera vocals.
But The Astonishing actually allowed James to showcase that he is not just a belter. Most of the belting is done with the Arhys character. The other characters highlight different vocal styles (Gabriel as hard rock, Faythe as pop, Daryus as metal, Nafaryus as classic rock with theatrical Freddie Mercury flair).
-
I personally would like to see DT try a different singer. I've always liked the tone of James' voice, and think, as is, it would be fine on a more "Falling Into Infinity" tier sound, but they continue to write songs that would really benefit from a powerful singer. That is one reason why I'm still a bit baffled they decided to do a musical with their new album - very demanding for a singer who, at this point, could be adding primarily color and character to the sound, but here is tasked doing rock opera vocals.
But The Astonishing actually allowed James to showcase that he is not just a belter. Most of the belting is done with the Arhys character. The other characters highlight different vocal styles (Gabriel as hard rock, Faythe as pop, Daryus as metal, Nafaryus as classic rock with theatrical Freddie Mercury flair).
True, plus I would add that TA is generally viewed as DT's softest album
-
It seems like DT have just continued to get heavier and more "metal" as I've continuously expected them to take things down a notch. Can't say I blame them. A lot of fans really, really like it. And JP's shredder status is so central to interest in the band, from what I can tell. Personally, I think this kind of music would just sound better with a different singer. But I'd also rather the complete opposite - DT get softer, and start channeling Floyd moreso than Iron Maiden. Do something that allows us to appreciate the tonal qualities of JLB's voice, rather than something that continuously has us asking ourselves "can he really hit that one?"
That's why they just released The Astonishing, the heaviest record of their careers :lol
-
That's why they just released The Astonishing, the heaviest record of their careers :lol
Agreed. They've been less "Metal" since A Dramatic Turn of Events and I'm fine with that.
-
The plan for this year was actually just to do a short leg in europe and asia/oz, and then be done.
What is ”oz”?
-
The plan for this year was actually just to do a short leg in europe and asia/oz, and then be done.
What is ”oz”?
Australia
-
That's why they just released The Astonishing, the heaviest record of their careers :lol
Agreed. They've been less "Metal" since A Dramatic Turn of Events and I'm fine with that.
ADTOE ist one of my favourite albums, if they continue with that style I'll be happy. But I don't think they can't write "heavier" songs/albums any more. JLB still has a very powerful voice if he's singing in a comfortable vocal range. TDEN works great on the current tour.
Didn't JP just say in a recent interview that he writes the songs with JLBs voice in mind, and that JLB can sing everything?
-
The plan for this year was actually just to do a short leg in europe and asia/oz, and then be done.
What is ”oz”?
It's where Jordan vacations and hides behind a curtain.
-
I personally would like to see DT try a different singer. I've always liked the tone of James' voice, and think, as is, it would be fine on a more "Falling Into Infinity" tier sound, but they continue to write songs that would really benefit from a powerful singer. That is one reason why I'm still a bit baffled they decided to do a musical with their new album - very demanding for a singer who, at this point, could be adding primarily color and character to the sound, but here is tasked doing rock opera vocals.
But The Astonishing actually allowed James to showcase that he is not just a belter. Most of the belting is done with the Arhys character. The other characters highlight different vocal styles (Gabriel as hard rock, Faythe as pop, Daryus as metal, Nafaryus as classic rock with theatrical Freddie Mercury flair).
I would agree with that, but it doesn't really contradict my statement. I only listened to the Astonishing 2-3 times (sorry, not my cup of tea AT ALL), and while James did a good job showcasing those roles in the studio, I'm not sure those roles showcased the real James.
That's why they just released The Astonishing, the heaviest record of their careers :lol
Agreed. They've been less "Metal" since A Dramatic Turn of Events and I'm fine with that.
Eh, semantics. They've dropped a lot of the "modern" metal influences that came with Portnoy, but all three albums with Mangini are undeniably belonging under the "metal", and the point I was making is that I'd like to see them go for a softer sound overall that would be uniquely not-metal.
-
James is so cute ^^
-
and the point I was making is that I'd like to see them go for a softer sound overall that would be uniquely not-metal.
Count me in on that desire. It pains me to know that DT *has* that side, because it peered out in rare occasions.
A random example, but you know, as campy as POW is, that may be the only time DT ever experimented with layered vocals. There are so many avenues to explore for DT.
-
and the point I was making is that I'd like to see them go for a softer sound overall that would be uniquely not-metal.
Count me in on that desire. It pains me to know that DT *has* that side, because it peered out in rare occasions.
A random example, but you know, as campy as POW is, that may be the only time DT ever experimented with layered vocals. There are so many avenues to explore for DT.
I doubt that they, as one of the world's leading prog metal bands, would take a risk like that. They could lose the major part of their fanbase.
-
and the point I was making is that I'd like to see them go for a softer sound overall that would be uniquely not-metal.
Count me in on that desire. It pains me to know that DT *has* that side, because it peered out in rare occasions.
A random example, but you know, as campy as POW is, that may be the only time DT ever experimented with layered vocals. There are so many avenues to explore for DT.
Given that many fans vocally complained about the lack of metal in The Astonishing, I don't think they would really go this route.
-
and the point I was making is that I'd like to see them go for a softer sound overall that would be uniquely not-metal.
Count me in on that desire. It pains me to know that DT *has* that side, because it peered out in rare occasions.
A random example, but you know, as campy as POW is, that may be the only time DT ever experimented with layered vocals. There are so many avenues to explore for DT.
Given that many fans vocally complained about the lack of metal in The Astonishing, I don't think they would really go this route.
And many fans didn't. I'm always curious to see what the band does next. They usually don't make two consecutive albums with the same sound.
-
Eh, semantics. They've dropped a lot of the "modern" metal influences that came with Portnoy, but all three albums with Mangini are undeniably belonging under the "metal", and the point I was making is that I'd like to see them go for a softer sound overall that would be uniquely not-metal.
It can be difficult to define. Apparently, AC/DC was Metal back in the day. I wouldn't classify The Astonishing as Metal. The Dark Side of the Moon is a Rock album but I think it's very mellow. Whatever you call it, I'd like to hear Dream Theater rock it out or have high energy whatever.
I doubt that they, as one of the world's leading prog metal bands, would take a risk like that. They could lose the major part of their fanbase.
The Astonishing was a big risk methinks.
-
Canadian rap, anyone? :lol :biggrin: