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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: volwrath on December 04, 2016, 03:27:44 PM
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This was posted earlier on reddit, and I havent seen it posted on here: https://dreamtheater.club/blog/2016/12/04/mike-mangini-october-31st-indianapolis-interview/
Very interesting! It sounds like he may be a bit over being with DT.
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Is it just me, or did someone else also get a sort of negative vibe from that interview?
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I only read it, didn't watch, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he wasn't in the band that much longer. He clearly sounds frustrated with not being more involved in the songwriting.
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"10%", "not included", "replacement drummer"...
That's some pretty stark words.
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Sounds like he went in thinking a team effort and man he's not liking it.
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Yeah maybe that's just his... sense of humor or something, but that definitely came across as 'meh, life sucks but I enjoy eating and I got a solo album comin' out.'
Edit: not that I want him to lie and be like 'HECK YES LIFE IS GREAT'
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I'm not quite sure what to make of that. Maybe he was having a bad day like we all do and it spilled into the interview...although
his frame of mind and demeanor seemed normal.
He seems pretty bummed that he is not a bigger part of the creative process. Actually he seems pretty 'over' the whole thing which
is very odd.
Hmmm
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He sounds bored, bitter and unhappy. Shame. Seems like a cool guy and clearly has amazing talent. I very much doubt we'll ever get to hear his potential realised in DT, judging by that interview.
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I like his honesty but this interview makes me feel sad. After MP left I hoped that all band members would be more equally involved in the songwriting process. But the opposite happened, creatively DT shrinked to a two person project. I hope they change that direction with the next album.
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Yes he said "not included" referring to the writing on this album, but he did not say he was unhappy about it. It's just a statement of fact. Don't jump to conclusions.
The only impression I got from this interview was that they went all in and took their two-writer conceptual writing and also their backing track / visual-heavy show to the fullest extent this go around, and if I had to guess and make a prediction, the next thing they do will probably go in another direction.
This is how DT has always worked. They constantly explore different avenues within their sound and production and let them run their course until it's time for something new.
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Well, Mike's a very positive guy, so reading this is kind of surprising. I don't think he's going to quit DT anytime soon, but he's writing his own solo music and wants to offer more than just play the drums for the band. I definitely want him to get more songwriting opportunities on the next DT album, but, with the IAW 25th anniversary tour coming up, he's going to be playing lots of music from before he got in the band and the next album might be delayed to late 2018 or even 2019, depending on how much they tour next year.
Like I said, I don't think he's considering to leave the band anytime soon, remember this interview is from more than a month ago, and he's already talked about learning songs for the DT tour next, after this interview. It just wouldn't make sense to start working on all that if he's planning to leave the band at the end of this tour or else.
Also, I would hate to see him leave, while still lots of "fans" don't appreciate all he's brought to the band. And don't get me started on the big pile of "bring Pornoy back" comments waiting to get posted. It just wouldn't be right.
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Time will tell.
I will just say that people who are truly artistically driven, and I mean from deep down in their soul, have an insatiable need to create.
It's what defines their existence. Maybe he can have a very honest discussion with the band before the next album and let them know
how important it is for him to be a bigger part of the process. Then again he might not like the answer he gets from JP.
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Yes he said "not included" referring to the writing on this album, but he did not say he was unhappy about it. It's just a statement of fact. Don't jump to conclusions.
The only impression I got from this interview was that they went all in and took their two-writer conceptual writing and also their backing track / visual-heavy show to the fullest extent this go around, and if I had to guess and make a prediction, the next thing they do will probably go in another direction.
This is how DT has always worked. They constantly explore different avenues within their sound and production and let them run their course until it's time for something new.
And MM sounds a little disillusioned. I would guess he wants a team effort writing. Why people are jumping to conclusions is he never sounds negative like this in interviews.
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If you look back to the audition documentary, he was mentioning how the type of music DT plays is what "naturally comes out of him anyway". I think he had high hopes he would provide significant input to DT, giving new impulses. That after 6 years he has to answer "humor" when asked what his biggest contribution to DT is, is probably not the scenario he envisioned.
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Did MP take over MM's body?
"How am I supposed to offer stuff to a band like Dream Theater? I have, but it's just not on their level."
WUT?
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Wow, that was uncomfortable.
He looks, spent, tired, aggravated, and talking to that guy was obviously the last thing he wanted to be doing.
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Didn't get that impression at all. I thought Mike was pretty comfortable talking to the guy, and the guy was also very casual and non-pressing. It was totally Mike steering the conversation where it went.
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After watching the interview, there were at least a dozen non-verbal cues in that interview that led me to believe that he is tired and frustrated of being in the band. He is a classy guy, hence him saying he is doing his best to be a team player, but his aggravation is more than obvious. He didn't have to say, "I am unhappy"; his non-verbal behavior said it all. For example, look at his eyes and the way he dipped his head when he talked about how being on the road has affected his family life; that clearly bums him out a lot.
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They may all be perfectly happy to have had this one album written by Rudess and Petrucci, under the premise that they know the next one could very well be written as the biggest group effort yet, or perhaps feature songs primarily written by the other three guys. Each thing presents its own challenges and I think that's what he's saying.
They always have surprises in the works, and just because they might do some different next, doesn't mean they didn't like what they did before. Mangini is speaking his mind, stating facts, and describing what he focuses on. You can't all the sudden dive into him (of all people) being disappointed with DT. We don't know...
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They may all be perfectly happy to have had this one album written by Rudess and Petrucci, under the premise that they know the next one could very well be written as the biggest group effort yet, or perhaps feature songs primarily written by the other three guys. Each thing presents its own challenges and I think that's what he's saying.
They always have surprises in the works, and just because they might do some different next, doesn't mean they didn't like what they did before. Mangini is speaking his mind, stating facts, and describing what he focuses on. You can't all the sudden dive into him (of all people) being disappointed with DT. We don't know...
But aren't you assuming everything is perfectly good and he is quite happy? I mean, sure both are possible, but this interview at least hints at one of the directions, not both.
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In all his other interviews MM has been very positive. This is a very telling interview. It's out of his character so it's very telling.
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The chapter in my life comment was interesting to me.
Mike just seemed really tired and spent. The tour must be catching up to him. But I hope the guys in the band read/hear this and say: "Hey, we've got to involve this guy more, he's got a lot to add to us."
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The tour must be catching up to him.
Definitely looked that way.
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I mean, he truly is dialed in for this show with the video/lights. They have synced videos and lights in almost all of their shows, but this one seems really complex and it's true that if he makes a mistake, then the whole show is off, at least technically speaking. That's not stress that I'd enjoy every single night
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In all his other interviews MM has been very positive. This is a very telling interview. It's out of his character so it's very telling.
I think the main difference here to previous interviews was that he wasn't trying to deflect the question anymore. He has been asked before about the amount of his contributions, and he always gave a "I'm a team player" answer. This was the first time (to my knowledge) that he said flat out "I wasn't included in two of the three albums, and even on the third it was little more than a sentence". And the "how could I even contribute ... whatever, whatever, whatever" had a previously unheard-of defeatism to it.
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I can understand that some fans don't appreciate Mangini's work for the band or all the effort he puts into it, but not being able to use your true potential becuase your bandmates don't see the need for it yet is just heartbreaking :'(
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In all his other interviews MM has been very positive. This is a very telling interview. It's out of his character so it's very telling.
I think the main difference here to previous interviews was that he wasn't trying to deflect the question anymore. He has been asked before about the amount of his contributions, and he always gave a "I'm a team player" answer. This was the first time (to my knowledge) that he said flat out "I wasn't included in two of the three albums, and even on the third it was little more than a sentence". And the "how could I even contribute ... whatever, whatever, whatever" had a previously unheard-of defeatism to it.
Dead on Rumbo.
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In all his other interviews MM has been very positive. This is a very telling interview. It's out of his character so it's very telling.
I think the main difference here to previous interviews was that he wasn't trying to deflect the question anymore. He has been asked before about the amount of his contributions, and he always gave a "I'm a team player" answer. This was the first time (to my knowledge) that he said flat out "I wasn't included in two of the three albums, and even on the third it was little more than a sentence". And the "how could I even contribute ... whatever, whatever, whatever" had a previously unheard-of defeatism to it.
OK. So why the different approach?
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Not sure I understand your question, TAC. Do you mean why did MM change his approach now?
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Well, why do you think he sounded so (your word) defeated (ism)?
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Well, for the same reason that a lot of people eventually speak about a situation they are unhappy with. At some point they get too frustrated to gloss it over.
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Well, for the same reason that a lot of people eventually speak about a situation they are unhappy with. At some point they get too frustrated to gloss it over.
OK, well that's what I was asking you. He comes off as really frustrated.
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Let's remember that every single thing Mike does is under the microscope from the, surprisingly lots of, "fans" who just can't let go of the fact that Portnoy left. If he plays something too similar like MP, "the guy has no creativity, he just copies Portnoy", if he changes something too much, "he's disrespectful to the song". If he plays too simple on a new album (like some parts of TA, for example), "the guy can't write any good drum parts", if he plays very complex parts, "the guy is just showing off, pure skill and no groove". It's like he just can' win with everything he does.
Now, I don't think he, or anyone, should be concerned too much about what some people say, becauses, not matter what you do, you'll always have people supporting you and people hating on you, it's just part of life. Having said that, all that criticism can be a very hard burden to carry.
Combine that with his wish of being able to contribute much more to the writing and the band in general, and you have a bad result :sad:
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This isn't the first report of him seeming unhappy in the band. I expect one more album with him, tops.
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The thing is, allowing MM to write more and contribute shouldn't be that much of an issue. He is capable of doing so
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I have some thoughts, but I almost think the DT fans talking about this type of stuff is part of what might be bringing him down.
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I haven't watched/read the interview, but I don't see MM leaving the band. He wanted this so much, and committed to the band, and this is his job now. Even from old interviews on the last tour (and maybe ADTOE?) he sounded overwhelmed with the work involved playing all of these songs every night with the click. Might have just caught him on a bad day?
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I think some people are overreacting. He did say he doesn't feel like he contributes much to the band, but he also said it wasn't very different than other bands he's been in. And he also said many times that a band is a team effort, and that he's comfortable filling his role. And he eventually admitted that the stuff he does write is mostly not up to par with DT material anyway. I mean, I doubt he wrote much for Stevie Vai. Maybe he was more exasperated at having to answer that question so many times. Everyone asks for his "contribution," and he's a drummer in a band with 4 other very talented musicians. Although some drummers contribute a lot to writing rock songs, they're not usually the main composers, I would guess. Other than a few songs, I really don't think Portnoy contributed a ton, either. Since Jordan joined the band, it seems like it's mostly been JP and Jordan the whole time. Maybe when Moore was in the band, it was more balanced, with more input with Myung, and some from James.
As for the touring and the stress on the family, pretty much everyone thinks that. JP has mentioned it before...that's why he wrote Endless Sacrifice. But he also said he really didn't want to go back to teaching at Berklee. He said "there’s going to be a day that traveling around as an older man is not really the thing," but that doesn't necessarily sound like he's thinking of leaving immediately.
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I really don't hope this is the case, but if this is what eventually drives him away from the band, would they even consider asking Portnoy? Or would they find someone else?
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I wouldn't read too much into the interview. He's just stating facts, and in my eyes it comes off more as a type of "i have a specific role to fill" type of answer.
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I wouldn't go into "omg he's gonna leave the band" panic mode, but it's clear that he's not 100% happy with his role in the band.
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During TA's 'cycle', we've hardly heard anything about Myung and Mangini. It certainly feels like they're the "other guys" in the background in all of this. I mean, Petrucci wrote all the lyrics and created the story, Rudess helped with the music, and LaBrie had all the character voicings to do, whereas it feels like Myung and Mangini were effectively told "Just stay back and play what we tell you to play", not making a significant creative contribution to the album. I mean, can you think of a really memorable fill on the album by Mangini? If anything, I think his and Myung's most memorable moment is the simple backing to Petrucci's solo on A New Beginning.
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And he eventually admitted that the stuff he does write is mostly not up to par with DT material anyway. I mean, I doubt he wrote much for Stevie Vai. Maybe he was more exasperated at having to answer that question so many times. Everyone asks for his "contribution," and he's a drummer in a band with 4 other very talented musicians. Although some drummers contribute a lot to writing rock songs, they're not usually the main composers, I would guess.
Yeah, but I think that's exactly what exasperates him. As he said himself in the interview, for all his life he's been a replacement drummer. I think he joined DT with the explicit hope that this time he's *not* that. And now after 6 years he has to admit "nope, still that. Still no input."
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I wouldn't go into "omg he's gonna leave the band" panic mode, but it's clear that he's not 100% happy with his role in the band.
This is basically my read of the interview.
If he truly is not 100% happy then he needs to do himself a favor and mention a couple things to the boys (if he hasn't already):
- Maybe try to do a tour without a click and the entire production of the show resting on MM, might make touring less stressful
- Try to include MM in the song writing for the next album
I think those two (very basic) things would help MM out a lot.
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Mangini seems like the type of guy who really likes being in a band, but also doesn't like being too far away from his home and family. IMO, he's sounded somewhat burnt out since the first tour with the guys. Wouldn't be surprised if he was feeling ready to return to more of a normal life.
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I wonder if the more recent success of DT in the mainstream (increasingly higher chart placing for albums, Grammy nominations, for example), thus the lure of longer and more widespread tours, is starting to take a toll on the band, all of whom are not exactly spring chickens.
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I read the transcription. I think it is obvious that he's taking the good with the bad.
Let's look at it:
He misses his family a lot.
He misses teaching.
He seems not satisfied in contributing to two of the last three DT records (I don't blame him).
He refers to DT as a chapter in his life (remember, all chapters come to an end).
The man has a lot on his plate, and had a life established for years before this opportunity came up. Part of him, I'm sure, loves being in DT, loves performing regularly, etc. But overall, what really stood out to me were the negatives he brought up. I'm not saying MM is going to ditch DT tomorrow, but I do think, once the tour dates for 2017 come to an end, and the band has a break, he may consider it (based on what I read). But that's just me speculating and reading the tea leaves...
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I mean, can you think of a really memorable fill on the album by Mangini?
??? Um, several.
As far as the interview itself, definitely a lot of things to chew on. Hard to say how much to read into it. MM just has a very..."different" personality and way of expressing himself. Often times, I frankly cannot figure out where he is coming from on some things. So I hesitate to try to figure him out from a single interview.
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bosk -- I haven't had the opportunity to meet MM, but from what I have read over the years, I think what you said in regard to his personality is spot-on. It is hard to read him. He's just a bit quirky when it comes to saying things. So good point overall. Probably shouldn't read TOO deeply into it.
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I read the transcription. I think it is obvious that he's taking the good with the bad.
Let's look at it:
He misses his family a lot.
He misses teaching.
He seems not satisfied in contributing to two of the last three DT records (I don't blame him).
He refers to DT as a chapter in his life (remember, all chapters come to an end).
The man has a lot on his plate, and had a life established for years before this opportunity came up. Part of him, I'm sure, loves being in DT, loves performing regularly, etc. But overall, what really stood out to me were the negatives he brought up. I'm not saying MM is going to ditch DT tomorrow, but I do think, once the tour dates for 2017 come to an end, and the band has a break, he may consider it (based on what I read). But that's just me speculating and reading the tea leaves...
Brian, if you get the chance, watch the video.
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Brian, if you get the chance, watch the video.
Yeah, the video helps judge how he says some of the things he said. Like Kev said earlier, his body language while he is saying (or not saying things) tells you a lot.
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Haven't watched it, so I can't speak to tone or non-verbal cues.
But reading it, it sounds like something by Mangini. He's a different cat. In a lot of his FB posts or interview answers, he often says things in ways that would never occur to me to say them. He thinks differently. Hell, I posted a really long FB post a couple of days ago, and I still don't understand WTF he was even trying to say.
He may be frustrated, but just because he is saying things that many "normal" people might not say, or the way they might say, doesn't necessarily mean that anything is wrong. It could just be his weird way to communicate.
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He kind of lost me when asked about the current tour.
He replies something like, "it's different, just really different" and then starts talking about his tour with UK and not liking to wear so many
clothes when he plays. I'm trying to find some correlation there but maybe his mind just shifted gears for a moment.
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BTW, a general comment, in a discussion like this it's indispensable to watch the actual video. Obviously this whole thing hinges on his mood and intent.
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Wait til Blabbermouth gets a hold of it. :rollin
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BTW, a general comment, in a discussion like this it's indispensable to watch the actual video. Obviously this whole thing hinges on his mood and intent.
Agreed. As is often the case, I think the printed word comes across much more bluntly than actually hearing/seeing him talk.
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He kind of lost me when asked about the current tour.
He replies something like, "it's different, just really different" and then starts talking about his tour with UK and not liking to wear so many
clothes when he plays. I'm trying to find some correlation there but maybe his mind just shifted gears for a moment.
Well, it's kinda of a tangent on "playing in theaters require a different mindset and different way to stage a show". It's related, in that his fear was that when they decided to do theaters, it'd be like when he played with U.K.
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He kind of lost me when asked about the current tour.
He replies something like, "it's different, just really different" and then starts talking about his tour with UK and not liking to wear so many
clothes when he plays. I'm trying to find some correlation there but maybe his mind just shifted gears for a moment.
Well, it's kinda of a tangent on "playing in theaters require a different mindset and different way to stage a show". It's related, in that his fear was that when they decided to do theaters, it'd be like when he played with U.K.
Ahhh gotcha.
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BTW, a general comment, in a discussion like this it's indispensable to watch the actual video. Obviously this whole thing hinges on his mood and intent.
At work I just read the transcription and was thinking: wow not good. Now I'm at home watching the video I think it's far overlooked. I see MM explaining the facts as it is and how he is part of the band right now filling his role, answering the questions as it is ..smiling and with humor. He will contribute. Leaving? Hell no.
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I feel bad for MM. The difference is night and day from when he got the gig to now. I don't blame him though, honestly. Not being a part of 2/3 of the records they've released with him must be quite frustrating.
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Now I'm at home watching the video I think it's far overlooked. I see MM explaining the facts as it is and how he is part of the band right now filling his role, answering the questions as it is ..smiling and with humor. He will contribute. Leaving? Hell no.
That was my take on it. He's just trying to be accurate.
He is a quirky guy, and he mentioned he read a ton of heavy philosophy in the past. I think he was just trying to be philosophically accurate (and in the process, somewhat over-thinking some of his interview answers compared to what a lot of people expect out of someone in a rock band). I took from it that he doesn't make a lot of contributions, and that's not bad or good...it just is what it is.
If he was exasperated in any way, it might have been from constantly being asked that question. I don't think there's any band out there where the drummer is expected to contribute a ton to the writing, and yet MM is constantly asked about his lack of influence on ADTOE, what his influence was on DT12, and now again on his lack of influence on TA. It sounded to me at least as likely that he was tired of being expected to have a ton of influence when his role is simply a drummer in a band full of expert musicians.
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BTW, a general comment, in a discussion like this it's indispensable to watch the actual video. Obviously this whole thing hinges on his mood and intent.
At work I just read the transcription and was thinking: wow not good. Now I'm at home watching the video I think it's far overlooked. I see MM explaining the facts as it is and how he is part of the band right now filling his role, answering the questions as it is ..smiling and with humor. He will contribute. Leaving? Hell no.
Well ... I think I have to disagree there a bit. While, as others have pointed out, MM has a uniquely direct and sometimes hard-to-read manner of talking about stuff, there is no question that he has never been this frank and non-evasive in his statements about his lack of influence on DT's creative direction. Now, I agree that one can not particularly project any future action on his part from these statements, but there's no question that he currently is significantly more frustrated than we have ever seen him. Nobody should sell their house in expectation of MM quitting the band, but you also can't gloss over the fact that this was a very frustrated and bitter Mike Mangini on that day.
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Well, I doubt everyone's happy with the second leg of this tour. A band that has had the success they have had is probably a bit agitated that they're playing to such small crowds on most nights.
They've been touring all year. Maybe he's just tired. If you interview me when I'm tired, I'll tell you I hate my job, even though it's sorta OK.
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BTW, a general comment, in a discussion like this it's indispensable to watch the actual video. Obviously this whole thing hinges on his mood and intent.
At work I just read the transcription and was thinking: wow not good. Now I'm at home watching the video I think it's far overlooked. I see MM explaining the facts as it is and how he is part of the band right now filling his role, answering the questions as it is ..smiling and with humor. He will contribute. Leaving? Hell no.
That's good to know. I can't watch right now. But that's cool. Still, however, I hope Blabbermouth doesn't jump on the transcription and make a shit storm for the band. MM might have to be careful what he says in the future.
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I don't take from the interview that he'd never leave, but I do take from it that he might eventually do so. I think he'll stick around for the next album at least, and probably do the tour after that. But we could be talking at least three more years for that. I think that's what I took from his body language...not that he'll leave right away, but that he'll probably give one more album/tour cycle a shot and then possibly hang it up.
Despite its longevity, DT's lineup has been pretty consistent. Most bands aren't this tight. Yes went through dozens of lineup changes. Genesis went through a bunch of attrition.
I kind of wonder when James might decide he wants to hang it up. I think at some point, he's going to decide, "hey, my voice isn't what it used to be...these things happen when you age as a vocalist." Although TA was probably one of his best works with the band, I think he might decide sometime soon that he doesn't want to do all the touring. DT could get its own version of Jon Davison.
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Mangini comes off tired and down in this interview. This isn't the first instance, though. I remember him referring to the DT12 tour with "uhm, would you like to be playing it?" He's got a very big, taxing job that's bound to exhaust you. At this point, I bet it's a bit too much for all of them.
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Mangini comes off tired and down in this interview. This isn't the first instance, though. I remember him referring to the DT12 tour with "uhm, would you like to be playing it?" He's got a very big, taxing job that's bound to exhaust you. At this point, I bet it's a bit too much for all of them.
I don't get the impression that JP, JR, or JM feel this way. JR seems pretty excited about this album...he's always on Facebook taking selfies in every different city he visits. And JR and JP seem pretty excited to do their "Exploring the Astonishing Themes" videos.
I do think JM wants to contribute more to the next album, and perhaps MM wants to do the same.
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In the JMX interviews I've read this year he's seemed to be more excited about the Jelly Jam album and tour than TA, but that may just be him drumming up his side project more, because it's less familiar to people.
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I don't take from the interview that he'd never leave, but I do take from it that he might eventually do so. I think he'll stick around for the next album at least, and probably do the tour after that. But we could be talking at least three more years for that. I think that's what I took from his body language...not that he'll leave right away, but that he'll probably give one more album/tour cycle a shot and then possibly hang it up.
Despite its longevity, DT's lineup has been pretty consistent. Most bands aren't this tight. Yes went through dozens of lineup changes. Genesis went through a bunch of attrition.
I kind of wonder when James might decide he wants to hang it up. I think at some point, he's going to decide, "hey, my voice isn't what it used to be...these things happen when you age as a vocalist." Although TA was probably one of his best works with the band, I think he might decide sometime soon that he doesn't want to do all the touring. DT could get its own version of Jon Davison.
It would suck to see MM leave, and while I get your point on "one more album/tour cycle and then we'll see", I wouldn't be so sure it's going to end up that way. We can't decide how he truly feels or not, but if we can be sure of one thing from this interview, as well as other comments on his fb page, etc, is that he really wants more writing involvement with the band.
Now, let's see their inmediate plans: The TA tour ends today, and then they'll have a break untill the last days of January, when the Images, Words & Beyond tour starts. We don't know the setlist yet, but it's going to be mostly stuff from pre-MM DT, even though they will definitely include some ADTOE, DT12 and TA in there. The dates they've announced so far end at the last days of February, which means a full tour month for the band.
After that, they'll either continue that tour on more cities/countries, continue the TA tour on Asia/Australia, etc, or take a couple months off and then start the new album. Those are the 3 possible options I think they have (I doubt they would take a long break after that).
So, depending on how long the touring for next year goes and what plans they have for the future album (remember they tend to start talking about their next album with a lot of anticipation), Mike would have to consider all the options he has. If the band plans to tour for most of 2017 with the IAW thing, he might not be a big fan of the idea, since that would mean 2 full years of touring, he would hate to leave his family for that long time, plus all the effort and sacrifice it takes to complete the tour, whis is, basically, celebrating the old days, not their current music.
If they talk about the new album soon and they (most likely JP) say they want to make it a full band collaboration again, Mike migh give it a shot, because that's basically what he wants. But if their next album plan is more on the side of "Jordan and I will come up with most stuff and you can add your own touch later", that could be a big turning point for Mangini.
In the JMX interviews I've read this year he's seemed to be more excited about the Jelly Jam album and tour than TA, but that may just be him drumming up his side project more, because it's less familiar to people.
It might be reading too much into it, but I remember the time TJJ was touring earlier this year, and they posted lots of pictures, and, every time JM appeared, he was smiling :eek We all know how Myung, the silent man, basically never appears smiling on any DT photo ever taken. Fans went nuts on their fb page :lol
Not saying he's unhappy with DT or anything like that, just commenting, since you mentioned it
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I think it is pretty clear (at least, again, from the transcription) that he expected to have more involvement in writing. Seems that JP did the drum parts for ADToE and TA, which MM then laid down. So I can see MM wanting that to stop so he can be an integral part of the recording/writing. And if that is indeed the case, I don't blame him for that.
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Seems that JP did the drum parts for ADToE and TA, which MM then laid down.
I was wondering that. I mean, even how he described laying down the drum tracks for TA, it sounded like such a rush job. He practiced on a 4-piece kit, not really learning of the songs, and then showed up for 5 days in the studio, recording 3 songs per day. I mean, MM is an excellent drummer, but obviously there will have been zero time for him to try to develop some cool rhythm or whatever.
Yeah, I suspect too that they provided him with programmed drum tracks, and while he was free to play whatever he wanted in the end, under that kind of time pressure he likely could only interpret the tracks, not build on them.
EDIT: I'm wracking my brain right now, wasn't that the time when he was stuck for a while in Boston because of the snow storm, and people were scratching their heads at how he could actually be part of the writing process when he's up at his place in Boston? Looks like we now know.
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I think it is pretty clear (at least, again, from the transcription) that he expected to have more involvement in writing. Seems that JP did the drum parts for ADToE and TA, which MM then laid down. So I can see MM wanting that to stop so he can be an integral part of the recording/writing. And if that is indeed the case, I don't blame him for that.
Slight correction: For ADTOE, JP did VERY basic drum patterns just to keep the beat and timing that they wanted. Mike came up with the actual parts on his own, sometimes following the feel of the basic patterns JP had programmed from the scratch tracks, and sometimes deviating from them if he came up with something on his own. I talked to JP quite a bit about the writing for The Astonishing, but we did not get into drum tracks. But from what we discussed, it was probably similar. But anyhow, my main point is this:
I don't think Mike is upset about writing drum parts. Again, he pretty much did compose his own drum parts for the albums he has written on. I think he is talking about writing and composing with the band as the songs are being written, and possibly having input into the composition beyond the drum parts. He does actually compose music, so this is not as much of a stretch as it might be for other drummers. But, yeah, I think what he was getting at is beyond just writing the drum tracks.
EDIT: Yeah, what Rumborak posted fits as well.
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I think it is pretty clear (at least, again, from the transcription) that he expected to have more involvement in writing. Seems that JP did the drum parts for ADToE and TA, which MM then laid down. So I can see MM wanting that to stop so he can be an integral part of the recording/writing. And if that is indeed the case, I don't blame him for that.
Well, it's not really like that. For ADTOE, MM said that JP gave him basic programmed drum tracks, nut he could play whatever he wanted inside that, let's call it, template. For TA, he also came up with the drum parts he wanted to play, even though he was probably given the indication to play some parts simpler to let the melodies and the story itself be the main focus. He's not, tet's say, disappointed for not being able to write the drum lines he wants to, but for not being able to contribute his own musical ideas (riffs, harmonies, patterns, sections, progressions, etc) to the band. He's very capable of writing songs by himself (he's said that many times) and that's why he's putting together a new solo album. He wants to contribute with more than just drum lines.
Hate to quote him on something like this, mainly because he uses it to justify his arguments on how he was also one of the main writers for DT, but, as Mike Portnoy has said many times: writing for the song isn't the same as writing your drum/bass/keys/guitar/whatever parts to a song. You don't get songwriting credit for that.
EDIT: I was writing all this and Bosk came, summarized it, and posted it faster than me :lol
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I think he is talking about writing and composing with the band as the songs are being written, and possibly having input into the composition beyond the drum parts.
Honestly, I can't think of any serious reason why we are three going on four albums into the Mangini era and he has been kept away from the majority of the writing sessions. Oddly enough, part of the audition test was coming up with stuff on the spot. In other words, writing by vibing off each and every member of DT (sans JLB for some reason).
The solution seems pretty simple.
Adding something else, Mangini mentioned bringing the basic narrative for Illumination Theory. He also talks about the insane amount of reading he has done. I thought the "what would you die for?" was a pretty interesting idea for a song. Maybe he didn't pen the words, but he could bring in a bunch of ideas for Petrucci, Myung, LaBrie to gain inspiration and direction on their own lyrics.
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Well, while the drumtracks are "basic", they're by no means bare. They're Toontrack Superior Drummer 2.0 tracks, and they were programmed more specifically than people seem to think. They were complete tracks, and apparently sounded very good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QaHdj4GTL8
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Well, while the drumtracks are "basic", they're by no means bare. They're Toontrack Superior Drummer 2.0 tracks, and they were programmed more specifically than people seem to think. They were complete tracks, and apparently sounded very good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QaHdj4GTL8
First -- bosk, rumbo, good posts. Thanks for the clarification, bosk.
What noxon posts is interesting though. Because if the drum tracks are done for the records this way, and they are programmed really specifically, it really doesn't leave THAT much room for a drummer to be overly creative. I mean, some fills can change (I am guessing here, I am not a drummer), but if a band is happy with the drum tracks from the demos using a program like this, I'd wager they wouldn't be all that different on the finished project. I mean, why would the drummer purposefully deviate significantly if the band likes the programmed versions?
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He did say he wrote stuff for DT13. It's just that JP wanted to do this big concept and they all agreed. It seems he wants to let out his creative juices with a solo album. Like JLB doing his solo albums.
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Like JLB doing his solo albums.
Except, of course, that JLB hardly writes anything on his solo records (at least the last couple). :lol
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Like JLB doing his solo albums.
Except, of course, that JLB hardly writes anything on his solo records (at least the last couple). :lol
but JLB solo albums are fantastic and even included MM in the past.
I read the interview, lots of negativity on there, and not even all DT related stuff. MM just read like he wwas worn down and ready to go home and be with his family. I bet the poor reception on this leg and the wear and tear on his body from doing this night in/out has left him exhausted. I can relate on a smaller level, when I come home from brutal business trips, I am not thinking very highly of my job or anything for that matter. If someone interviewed me I think I would come off very negative as well. I do hope the band comes out strong on the next release and let's MM be himself on the album, and not just be the replacement drummer.
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I think he is talking about writing and composing with the band as the songs are being written, and possibly having input into the composition beyond the drum parts.
Honestly, I can't think of any serious reason why we are three going on four albums into the Mangini era and he has been kept away from the majority of the writing sessions. Oddly enough, part of the audition test was coming up with stuff on the spot. In other words, writing by vibing off each and every member of DT (sans JLB for some reason).
The solution seems pretty simple.
Adding something else, Mangini mentioned bringing the basic narrative for Illumination Theory. He also talks about the insane amount of reading he has done. I thought the "what would you die for?" was a pretty interesting idea for a song. Maybe he didn't pen the words, but he could bring in a bunch of ideas for Petrucci, Myung, LaBrie to gain inspiration and direction on their own lyrics.
Well, yeah, but as Ben_Jamin already pointed out, that didn't happen on the last album just because of the unique nature of it and how JP wanted to compose that album differently. With ADTOE, as has been said in the past, they wrote it without MM just because of the timing of him being new in the band. But then he was a full participant on DT12. And then not on TA, again because that was a completely different beast and was JP's baby. I don't get the sense that there is any sort of push for him to be excluded going forward.
Well, while the drumtracks are "basic", they're by no means bare. They're Toontrack Superior Drummer 2.0 tracks, and they were programmed more specifically than people seem to think. They were complete tracks, and apparently sounded very good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QaHdj4GTL8
First -- bosk, rumbo, good posts. Thanks for the clarification, bosk.
What noxon posts is interesting though. Because if the drum tracks are done for the records this way, and they are programmed really specifically, it really doesn't leave THAT much room for a drummer to be overly creative. I mean, some fills can change (I am guessing here, I am not a drummer), but if a band is happy with the drum tracks from the demos using a program like this, I'd wager they wouldn't be all that different on the finished project. I mean, why would the drummer purposefully deviate significantly if the band likes the programmed versions?
Yeah, I hear what you are saying. And I don't know enough to go into percentages or anything like that. But the thing with those was, JP told him to play whatever he wanted and that those were just suggestions that JP programmed as scratch tracks just to record the demos. MM had a lot of freedom to do what he wanted. And he said that in some places, he did change some of the parts significantly. In others, he followed along with the scratch track with little modification. How much he deviated in terms of what specific sections of songs, or what percentage of the album, or whatever, I have no idea. I only know that in some places he did. In others he did not. Now, that being said, in light of the fact that JP is an experienced composer and that his basic drum ideas were probably good ideas for the feeling a song called for in most places, or the fact that MM was the new guy and wanted to be somewhat deferential to what was written, it may be more likely than not that he kept most of the original ideas and deviated only in a small percentage of passages. That wouldn't surprise me at all. But we really don't know that level of detail and can only guess.
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But then he was a full participant on DT12.
Ehhh, that's a stretch. This is one of the cases where the written version makes it sound better than what MM actually said. When you listen to the video, he's rather using DT12 as an example of, even when he was supposedly included, it was still at a minimal level. He immediately follows it with "you know, it's 10%!"
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I think from reading past interviews if he had say in his drum sound and participating in any of the writing process he'd feel more of a team, a part of a band.
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I think that's just not how DT operates anymore. Even before MP left it had coalesced into MP/JP/JR, and when MP left it was JP/JR from there on. The whole "band effort" thing of ADTOE and DT12, I get the impression, was mostly window dressing to appease the fans.
It's a bummer the clip doesn't exist on YouTube, but this whole thing reminds me of a scene in "Rockstar", where Izzy shows up for recording the new album.
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Well, please share with us the source of your information then since we are all dying to know.
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Well, please share with us the source of your information then since we are all dying to know.
Mike Mangini: "I was like, 10%. ADTOE and TA, I wasn't included."
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I can't remember the exact wording, but I remember that JP basically said, when they were getting a new drummer, that they wanted someone who could step in and keep the engine moving, not someone who would rock the boat and do anything outside of their comfort zone.
Also, consider that a lot of fans have expressed displeasure with how the drums have sounded on all of the MM era albums, and if he agrees, then he is someone who thinks, "Not only am I am not an equal member, but they aren't even mixing my drums to where I sound great on the records." For a guy like Mangini who puts so much thought and care into his playing, that has to be a kick in the groin.
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Well, while the drumtracks are "basic", they're by no means bare. They're Toontrack Superior Drummer 2.0 tracks, and they were programmed more specifically than people seem to think. They were complete tracks, and apparently sounded very good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QaHdj4GTL8
Quoting this for truth. SD programming can be really, really detailed.
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When I watched the video I was thinking that part of MM's tone and feel were based on the language gap. Interviewer spoke English just fine, but no matter how well somebody has learned English there's a lack of fluidity when it's not their first, primary language. Add to that, interviewer was just reading off prepared questions, and wasn't really looking to "converse." I think that creates a situation where it's easy to give pat answers and remain relatively disengaged.
That said, dude certainly didn't seem particularly happy with his role in the band or the way things are going. While he might not have written songs for Steve Vai, I'd be willing to bet there was a band mentality there where they got together and jammed. DT hasn't seemed to work that way for quite a while. He is for all intents and purposes a session guy but with all of the work of touring and none of the freedom.
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing him bolt, just for the sake of giving the rest of them a much-needed kick in the ass. They need to do something beyond two guys writing DT By Numbers. I don't really see them as a rock band anymore. The whole thing's become sterile and formulaic. JMX will never leave because that's what he does. The core three guys seem content to just do the same thing until they can't anymore. It'd be refreshing to see a second drummer leave for essentially the same reason. Maybe they'd reevaluate. Maybe they'd retire. Maybe they'd hire the next guy and continue down the same path. From my perspective that's gambling with the house's money.
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Your point is valid, yet I don't know if any band 30+ years and 13 albums (plus several live releases) needs a kick in the butt. They are on the home stretch and I would never begrudge anyone at that point in their career (or life) for not wanting to deviate much from their comfort level.
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Your point is valid, yet I don't know if any band 30+ years and 13 albums (plus several live releases) needs a kick in the butt. They are on the home stretch and I would never begrudge anyone at that point in their career (or life) for not wanting to deviate much from their comfort level.
Well that's an interesting take on it. Admittedly I still view them as youngsters in a relative sense among my favorite bands. I suppose if they want to progress on into nostalgia act territory that's their business. But it seems to me that the main point is whether or not Mangini wants to be Eric Singer or an actual band-member. That interview suggests the latter. And insofar as my point goes, whether or not they regain my interest. I'd love for them to, but at this point it's not really weighing all that heavily for me.
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That said, dude certainly didn't seem particularly happy with his role in the band or the way things are going. While he might not have written songs for Steve Vai, I'd be willing to bet there was a band mentality there where they got together and jammed. DT hasn't seemed to work that way for quite a while. He is for all intents and purposes a session guy but with all of the work of touring and none of the freedom.
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing him bolt, just for the sake of giving the rest of them a much-needed kick in the ass. They need to do something beyond two guys writing DT By Numbers. I don't really see them as a rock band anymore. The whole thing's become sterile and formulaic. JMX will never leave because that's what he does. The core three guys seem content to just do the same thing until they can't anymore. It'd be refreshing to see a second drummer leave for essentially the same reason. Maybe they'd reevaluate. Maybe they'd retire. Maybe they'd hire the next guy and continue down the same path. From my perspective that's gambling with the house's money.
I've mostly disconnected from listening to DT for quite awhile. The last album that I enjoyed was SC, and that not as much as the material that came before. I'm still interested in reading about what they're doing, but none of the music interests me anymore. I never knew how to put my feelings about them in words until I read this post. You nailed it.
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He has talked about this publicly last November. I think the context of the "replacement" drummer is in their decision at the time to include non-TA songs in the set:
November 11: Seems like the crowd reaaaally likes hearing our adjusted set/new encore of oldies the last couple of shows. They will stay in!
November 11: Those at the shows probably noticed that I'm playing them in a more "annihilator-ish" kick drum kind of way ; ) and changing the drum fill sections to my way, but keeping the "staple" parts that we all know. I'm also throwing in the lefty/righty thing again when there are key changes. I can't wait to do this on the all the different songs for 2017.
November 14: I believe that the comments on a comment I made on how I am approaching our new encore of "oldies" match how I'm playing them this round. i.e. You all (all that I saw anyway,) and I are on the same page. I realize that my career has been overwhelmingly so, as a 'replacement' guy even though nobody can essentially be replaced. My childhood drum teacher told me once that talent is not enough and in such cases as getting a job means "playing the song 300 times." i.e. doing homework and respecting the original. I believe that's called "respect."
He said 'that' guy gets the gig. So I honor the parts I feel that people want to hear and I amp up other things like slightly more 'metal' kick drum spurts and Bonham esc. swing to some grooves. Other than that, I will continue to lose my mind my way in fill sections like As I Am, but I won't change the main 'big' drum fill in Pull Me Under. I'll keep most main beats. The band guys need the music to sound a certain way, but prefer me to do my thing that got me the job in many places. It is all OK with me. I also believe that in a moral kind of way, being selfish and "artistic" over being a team person and putting yourself second is a conservative and safe way to be. I suppose balance or moderation are good words to think about too.
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I suppose balance or moderation are good words to think about too.
I remember this. It was on Blabbermouth under the title "New" DT drummer driven to alcoholism as he continues to lose his mind on tour.
Fortunately, Blabbermouth was forced to post a retraction. It wasn't the tour that drove him to the bottle. It was the constant questions and references to being the "New" DT drummer six year into his tenure. That and having to wear clothes during the TA tour because it is *theatRe"
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I also remembered that Mangini said he was " relieved " not to be included in the writing for ADTOE.
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Well, while the drumtracks are "basic", they're by no means bare. They're Toontrack Superior Drummer 2.0 tracks, and they were programmed more specifically than people seem to think. They were complete tracks, and apparently sounded very good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QaHdj4GTL8
Quoting this for truth. SD programming can be really, really detailed.
I've read many times that John only laid down drum and bass patterns for feel and timing. . ..
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I entirely respect MM's approach here, but am I the only one who wishes he sometimes *didn't* respect the original and did his own take on a song or two? I feel MM is stricter with the songs than even MP was.
He is for all intents and purposes a session guy but with all of the work of touring and none of the freedom.
The odd thing is, there isn't a need to. Look at Marco Minnemann's role for Steven Wilson. Steven too writes all the music himself, but it seems when it comes to recording them he leaves Marco enough freedom to leave his indelible mark on the tracks. There are a lot of places where you can tell that it was Marco's idea to put that there.
That said, IIRC, at least for Porcupine Tree I remember reading that he would trade recordings with Gavin Harrison during writing. So, it seems the drummer is in the loop a lot earlier than MM is.
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I suppose if they want to progress on into nostalgia act territory that's their business
They've been steadily releasing and performing new music for their entire career and haven't really deviated from that in recent years. You may think that the new music is DT by the numbers but that's not really what I'd classify as a nostalgia act. When the band starts performing the same old tired routine and not releasing any new music, then you'll have a case.
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The odd thing is, there isn't a need to. Look at Marco Minnemann's role for Steven Wilson. Steven too writes all the music himself, but it seems when it comes to recording them he leaves Marco enough freedom to leave his indelible mark on the tracks. There are a lot of places where you can tell that it was Marco's idea to put that there.
That said, IIRC, at least for Porcupine Tree I remember reading that he would trade recordings with Gavin Harrison during writing. So, it seems the drummer is in the loop a lot earlier than MM is.
Fun that you mention this, considering that Steven and Marco had some "issues" earlier in the year. In summary: Marco and Guthrie could't commit for the whole SW tour because they already had dates coming with The Aristocrats. Steven wasn't happy about this, heplaced them and, when the album won an award or something, Steven didn't want to consider GG or MM.
I found a link to what happened https://m.reddit.com/r/progrockmusic/comments/547wfa/marco_minnemannsteven_wilson_drama/
I know is reddit, but I did see the original post on Marco's fb page.
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I suppose if they want to progress on into nostalgia act territory that's their business
They've been steadily releasing and performing new music for their entire career and haven't really deviated from that in recent years. You may think that the new music is DT by the numbers but that's not really what I'd classify as a nostalgia act. When the band starts performing the same old tired routine and not releasing any new music, then you'll have a case.
Yes I totally agree.
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The odd thing is, there isn't a need to. Look at Marco Minnemann's role for Steven Wilson. Steven too writes all the music himself, but it seems when it comes to recording them he leaves Marco enough freedom to leave his indelible mark on the tracks. There are a lot of places where you can tell that it was Marco's idea to put that there.
I disagree. I don't know how much Mangini songs you have heard outside DT but you can definitely hear Mangini-isms all over especially in the self-titled album. Example, in Illumination Theory, we start with simultaneous playing of three cymbal patterns with a bass and snare pattern, a signature Mangini style that he demos in his workshops. Then later on in the song, you hear the drums going up and down the scale, the bass drums being involved more in setting the groove than the snare, the lefty-righty shifts to signal key changes, playing ghost notes on the left and right hi-hats and rides, at least three polyrhythms, playing a syncopated hi-hat while doing an odd-metered section (which he also did in BAI), demonstrations of high speed drumming, and a couple of extended one-hand drum rolls. That's just in one song. That does not yet leave an indelible mark?
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I don't know. Maybe it's a level where you need to be a drummer to hear it. With MP, Marco, Gavin etc., I can hear their very distinct style, right out of the gate. MM, I must say no. Frankly, I would mostly tell by the snare sound at this point.
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The odd thing is, there isn't a need to. Look at Marco Minnemann's role for Steven Wilson. Steven too writes all the music himself, but it seems when it comes to recording them he leaves Marco enough freedom to leave his indelible mark on the tracks. There are a lot of places where you can tell that it was Marco's idea to put that there.
I disagree. I don't know how much Mangini songs you have heard outside DT but you can definitely hear Mangini-isms all over especially in the self-titled album. Example, in Illumination Theory, we start with simultaneous playing of three cymbal patterns with a bass and snare pattern, a signature Mangini style that he demos in his workshops. Then later on in the song, you hear the drums going up and down the scale, the bass drums being involved more in setting the groove than the snare, the lefty-righty shifts to signal key changes, playing ghost notes on the left and right hi-hats and rides, at least three polyrhythms, playing a syncopated hi-hat while doing an odd-metered section (which he also did in BAI), demonstrations of high speed drumming, and a couple of extended one-hand drum rolls. That's just in one song. That does not yet leave an indelible mark?
The problem with this Erwin is that the drum production on the albums muds/clouds everything Mangini does. It is barely noticeable.
Edit: Reading/adding to Rumborak's post...the production on the recordings with the drummers he mentions highlights all the strengths and nuances from each drummer.
I revisited the ADTOE and was able to hear the Mangini nuances a bit more, but you struggle to hear them in DT 12 and and in TA. In fact, revisiting ADTOE made me appreiciate the drum sound more than what I had previously said compared to DT 12 and TA. Seems like so far the drum sound in ADTOE is the best Mangini sound to date in DT.
EDIT 2- Replaced fart with far LOL
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I'm sure MM has a "style" but as he states, he has largely been a replacement drummer so he has not been in many situations
where he got to create/develop a "style" that becomes solidified over many albums. I would say his #1 identifier for me is his hand
and foot speed. That is not really a style but I can usually recognize his playing just by his speed and dexterity.
I would love to here him let loose and be able to do whatever he wants.
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FWIW, I talked with Mike and spent some time with him last night at the last show of the tour, and while I didn't bring this up specifically (I thought it might be rude) , he was very enthusiastic and energetic and outgoing and gracious.
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FWIW, I talked with Mike and spent some time with him last night at the last show of the tour, and while I didn't bring this up specifically (I thought it might be rude) , he was very enthusiastic and energetic and outgoing and gracious.
What else did you find out about DT land?
-US Tour with Images?
-TA DVD? - Just read other thread.
-Recording of new album?
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FWIW, I talked with Mike and spent some time with him last night at the last show of the tour, and while I didn't bring this up specifically (I thought it might be rude) , he was very enthusiastic and energetic and outgoing and gracious.
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Did you talk about his solo album? Thanks!
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The production clouds only the ghost notes in the hi-hat and rides (although these are quite noticeable in Surrender to Reason, The Looking Glass and A Life Left Behind). The other Mangini-isms are not muddied by the production. The most noticeable is his crisp bass drum playing, where he is very playful, compared to the snare where he plays simple downbeats. Outside DT, good examples of his bass drum style is in Venice Burning with Mulmuzzler, the whole Elements of Persuasion album of JLB, and Thanks for Nothing with Tribe of Judah. In the DT songs, best examples are in Bridges in the Sky and The Path that Divides, especially the "rap" part. Another very noticeable Mangini style is going up and down the scale in unison with the other instruments.
A lot of Mangini-isms, though, are subtle. It's his style to blend in the music. For example, hearing him play two different patterns at once takes some being used to. One of my favorites is at the start of OTBOA, where his bass and snare is doing the rhythm and bass guitar pattern, while the cymbals is doing the keyboard pattern. You won't notice it until you listen to the patterns separately. Then there's The Walking Shadow, where the crash is doing an extended meter in sync with the guitar while the snare is following Labrie's lines that is on a decreasing time signature. The one handed drum rolls only become apparent when you realize that you are still hearing a constant cymbal hit on the downbeat while there is a drum roll :lol . Then there are the crazy things like doing two snare rolls at the same time to mimic a marching band in Astonishing.
So Mangini-isms are all over once you learn to hear them. For me, a good sampler would be OTBOA, LNF, BITS, STR, IT, A Life Left Behind, The Path that Divides and The Walking Shadow. You would get the Mangini style with these songs.
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What else did you find out about DT land?
-US Tour with Images?
Yes, but probably not until Fall 2017 (September/October, something like that). Per James, it won't be as extensive as the two combined legs of The Astonishing, but more like a typical North American tour - major markets, some Canadian stops, etc.
-Recording of new album?
Again per James, sometime in 2018. 2017 will be I&W touring and some down time.
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What else did you find out about DT land?
-US Tour with Images?
Yes, but probably not until Fall 2017 (September/October, something like that). Per James, it won't be as extensive as the two combined legs of The Astonishing, but more like a typical North American tour - major markets, some Canadian stops, etc.
-Recording of new album?
Again per James, sometime in 2018. 2017 will be I&W touring and some down time.
Thanks Hef for the insights!
Hopefully we get a James solo album in the meantime
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That would be sweet. I didn't ask about that.
When you meet the guys like that, you immediately forget half the shit you would want to ask them, partly over the excitement of actually getting to talk to them, and partly over the rush of the show you just saw.
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When you meet the guys like that, you immediately forget half the shit you would want to ask them, partly over the excitement of actually getting to talk to them, and partly over the rush of the show you just saw.
:lol Yup. Still happens to me. And the other part is just that you naturally get talking about something, and the conversation just goes where it goes, and you inevitably don't get to everything.
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When you meet the guys like that, you immediately forget half the shit you would want to ask them, partly over the excitement of actually getting to talk to them, and partly over the rush of the show you just saw.
:lol Yup. Still happens to me. And the other part is just that you naturally get talking about something, and the conversation just goes where it goes, and you inevitably don't get to everything.
Yep. My worse moment with DT was "Hi I'm goo-goo from the Forum" back in 2002...WTF!!! I deserve to be slapped! Of all the things I could have said and talked...I went with THAT
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:lol
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Yep. My worse moment with DT was "Hi I'm goo-goo from the Forum" back in 2002...WTF!!! I deserve to be slapped! Of all the things I could have said and talked...I went with THAT
Good thing you didn't tell Lady GaGa that you were from her forum.
That would make you Goo Goo from Ga Ga...
:neverusethis:
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All they heard was
Goo Goo from Forum.
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When you meet the guys like that, you immediately forget half the shit you would want to ask them, partly over the excitement of actually getting to talk to them, and partly over the rush of the show you just saw.
:lol Yup. Still happens to me. And the other part is just that you naturally get talking about something, and the conversation just goes where it goes, and you inevitably don't get to everything.
HI JOHN DID YOU KNOW YOU CANT SPELL BEARD WITHOUT BEAR :dangerwillrobinson: IM GONNA GO NOW BYEEEEE
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Me opening the Romavarium booklet to MP and pointing to my name in the booklet - "that's me".
Upon which he proceeded to point to his picture and say "and that's me".
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Me opening the Romavarium booklet to MP and pointing to my name in the booklet - "that's me".
Upon which he proceeded to point to his picture and say "and that's me".
That was priceless!!! :lol
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Me opening the Romavarium booklet to MP and pointing to my name in the booklet - "that's me".
Upon which he proceeded to point to his picture and say "and that's me".
:clap:
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Me opening the Romavarium booklet to MP and pointing to my name in the booklet - "that's me".
Upon which he proceeded to point to his picture and say "and that's me".
:lol
I remember my friends and I circling Geddy Lee on the Power Windows tour and he was staring at us looking like, "Is somebody going to talk"? :lol
I swear we were all pulling a Chris Farley.
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All they heard was
Goo Goo from Forum.
:rollin
Me opening the Romavarium booklet to MP and pointing to my name in the booklet - "that's me".
Upon which he proceeded to point to his picture and say "and that's me".
:rollin
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I don't know. Maybe it's a level where you need to be a drummer to hear it. With MP, Marco, Gavin etc., I can hear their very distinct style, right out of the gate. MM, I must say no. Frankly, I would mostly tell by the snare sound at this point.
Yeah, here I am. And something I noticed, which I might have mentioned in the concert thread, was that MM was far more entertaining to watch when he was playing MP's songs. Perhaps it's more accessible. Perhaps the drumwork is just more exciting. Don't know, but it was quite noticeable.
This raises an interesting point, though. Anybody can watch MP play and be entertained. He's fun to watch and his style just seems to click. Seems that MM is really more interesting to people with a very sharp understanding of drumming. I suppose that makes him a drummer's drummer. Yet while MM is certainly a more technically proficient drummer, I'm not aware of MP ever being considered lacking in proficiency. Are the people who can pick out all of these subtle things that Mangini does similarly intrigued by Portnoy's playing? I always considered him a great compromise of skill and accessibility.
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I've seen MP picked apart a lot by drummers, probably since he's received so much praise despite being more of an intuitive drummer that technically doesn't really hold a candle to guys like Minneman, Harrison, Mangini, etc.
That said, I like him better... as a non-drummer.
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I am an OK drummer at best. I can tell you I like watching both, but for largely different reasons.
MP is just fun and energetic to watch, and while he certainly is a much better drummer than I will ever be, I still get what he does. I understand what he does. He does what I do, but more and better.
I watch MM like I would watch any other craftsman. He drums, but what he does bears no resemblance to what I do. I can't have four limbs rocking four different patterns at four different tempos and four different time signatures. I am fascinated by him. It's amazing. But I could never, ever do it.
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These days my favorite drummer is Harrison, but there's no question that MP was top of my list for probably 15 years. I can't think of another drummer (other than Peart maybe) whose fans are making a point out of being able to air drum the parts.
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I miss playing drums.
For a while it felt like I was meant to be in a band.
Nope.
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The production clouds only the ghost notes in the hi-hat and rides (although these are quite noticeable in Surrender to Reason, The Looking Glass and A Life Left Behind). The other Mangini-isms are not muddied by the production. The most noticeable is his crisp bass drum playing, where he is very playful, compared to the snare where he plays simple downbeats. Outside DT, good examples of his bass drum style is in Venice Burning with Mulmuzzler, the whole Elements of Persuasion album of JLB, and Thanks for Nothing with Tribe of Judah. In the DT songs, best examples are in Bridges in the Sky and The Path that Divides, especially the "rap" part. Another very noticeable Mangini style is going up and down the scale in unison with the other instruments.
A lot of Mangini-isms, though, are subtle. It's his style to blend in the music. For example, hearing him play two different patterns at once takes some being used to. One of my favorites is at the start of OTBOA, where his bass and snare is doing the rhythm and bass guitar pattern, while the cymbals is doing the keyboard pattern. You won't notice it until you listen to the patterns separately. Then there's The Walking Shadow, where the crash is doing an extended meter in sync with the guitar while the snare is following Labrie's lines that is on a decreasing time signature. The one handed drum rolls only become apparent when you realize that you are still hearing a constant cymbal hit on the downbeat while there is a drum roll :lol . Then there are the crazy things like doing two snare rolls at the same time to mimic a marching band in Astonishing.
So Mangini-isms are all over once you learn to hear them. For me, a good sampler would be OTBOA, LNF, BITS, STR, IT, A Life Left Behind, The Path that Divides and The Walking Shadow. You would get the Mangini style with these songs.
All this was spot on! Since Mangini joined, I've been analysing his playing, patterns, the way he arranges things, the way his kit is shaped, his open handed technique, his playing is unique and different from any other drummer you could find out there. Can't get how people say he doesn't have a unique style, you just need to hear more carefully. He's definitely a master of drumming.
I don't know. Maybe it's a level where you need to be a drummer to hear it. With MP, Marco, Gavin etc., I can hear their very distinct style, right out of the gate. MM, I must say no. Frankly, I would mostly tell by the snare sound at this point.
Yeah, here I am. And something I noticed, which I might have mentioned in the concert thread, was that MM was far more entertaining to watch when he was playing MP's songs. Perhaps it's more accessible. Perhaps the drumwork is just more exciting. Don't know, but it was quite noticeable.
This raises an interesting point, though. Anybody can watch MP play and be entertained. He's fun to watch and his style just seems to click. Seems that MM is really more interesting to people with a very sharp understanding of drumming. I suppose that makes him a drummer's drummer. Yet while MM is certainly a more technically proficient drummer, I'm not aware of MP ever being considered lacking in proficiency. Are the people who can pick out all of these subtle things that Mangini does similarly intrigued by Portnoy's playing? I always considered him a great compromise of skill and accessibility.
Portnoy is great and also has a very distinctive style, but, tbh, he's not the great drummer he used to be. He's stuck playing the same old fills and tricks. You can hear it on all the DT albums past FII, he's just doing the same stuff over and over.
I have a friend who used to be a big DT fan, but now that MP left, he doesn't like the band as much as before. He's a big Portnoy fan and a drummer. Having said that, after he listened to NMB TSOAD (which i think is good, but not their best work at all), he said to me that MP just didn't do anything else besides "standard MP". He's become a good drummer version of Lars, where he just stopped caring about becoming a better drummer and is just concerned on putting out record after record with as many bands as he can.
Live, he always speeds the crap out of the songs and moves around making weird faces and spitting all over the place. That's MP's showmanship.
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I have always said that MP inspires me to pick up my drumsticks and MM inspires me to put them back down.
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I have always said that MP inspires me to pick up my drumsticks and MM inspires me to put them back down.
Just like the analogy of Slash vs John Petrucci :lol :biggrin:
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Portnoy is great and also has a very distinctive style, but, tbh, he's not the great drummer he used to be. He's stuck playing the same old fills and tricks. You can hear it on all the DT albums past FII, he's just doing the same stuff over and over.
Well, if he's able to do all the same stuff over and over, doesn't that actually mean that he is precisely the great drummer he used to be?
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^^ :D
Bottom line is they are both talented beyond regular mortals. Don't underestimate what MP can do when he wants to. He can play
everything from crazy high bpm thrash to very complicated syncopated rhythms. So can MM. I don't think MP would ever or has ever
argued that MM isn't more technically proficient but my question is...at what point does it become uninteresting musically, or
so far over everyone's head that it's meaningful only to the guy playing it?
They are both genius level players born with a special gift.
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Damn, Bosk! Nice.
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Portnoy is great and also has a very distinctive style, but, tbh, he's not the great drummer he used to be. He's stuck playing the same old fills and tricks. You can hear it on all the DT albums past FII, he's just doing the same stuff over and over.
Well, if he's able to do all the same stuff over and over, doesn't that actually mean that he is precisely the great drummer he used to be?
:lol I was trying to say that, at that time, he was doing great original stuff that was new, now he just feels like a "one trick pony". His ability is still there, he's just not doing anything fresh anymore (drum wise, not talking about his new bands with different styles). Sorry if my previous post sounded contradictory :biggrin:
Back in the day, MP was THE standard for prog drumming, but now there's lots of people out there, Minnemann or Garstka, for example, that can make MP sound like when he's playing that hello kitty drum set
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Okay, but the fact that others have come along that can take what he does to another level great. That means we have a lot more talented drummers out there now. That is not a negative reflection on him.
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^^ :D
Bottom line is they are both talented beyond regular mortals. Don't underestimate what MP can do when he wants to. He can play
everything from crazy high bpm thrash to very complicated syncopated rhythms. So can MM. I don't think MP would ever or has ever
argued that MM isn't more technically proficient but my question is...at what point does it become uninteresting musically, or
so far over everyone's head that it's meaningful only to the guy playing it?
They are both genius level players born with a special gift.
DING DING DING. Winner. I think it's clearly not over the heads of other people, since people here seem to get it, but it's certainly over my head and to me quite uninteresting. I don't want to have to take a graphing calculator to a damn rock concert to appreciate the musicianship. I certainly don't want Charlie Watt playing drums for DT, I appreciate much of the complexity, but I don't want HAL-9000 drumming, either. There's clearly a happy medium in there somewhere.
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I appreciate much of the complexity, but I don't want HAL-9000 drumming, either.
:lol
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If I had to analyze what I like(d) about DT's drumming, it's not really the complexity per se. It's much rather how the beat interacts with the music. For example, one of the things I really loved about MP's drumming is that he would occasionally invert the beat, i.e. change where the 1 is in the beat. It totally recasts what's going on musically and makes it interesting. That, to my ears, has yet to happen once in MM-era DT.
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I really hate talking about the guys in the band (ex-guys too) because it almost either comes off as fanboy or angry cross-armed "fan". I'm sure Sherinian didn't like all the Moore and Rudess comparisons when he was in a similar position (trying to fill the shoes of what is essentially a core part of a band's sound). It probably isn't what any one fan says, but the constant talk by what may feel like "the entire fanbase".
But in many ways, the MP to MM comparisons might be unfair to MM. It is much easier to write memorable parts when you are there at conception and responsible for starting the jam on the next section of the song as opposed to having to play over something that is a programmed road trip. It is probably why DT S/T is some of MM's more memorable drum parts.
At this point, I almost wish DT would make a possible "throwaway" album. The old pro (Petrucci) needs to put on the producer hat and decide that DT might explore new territory he never thought about if the rookies/benchwarmers are given the chance to strikeout.
Has anybody asked Mangini what type of writer he thinks he is? For instance, Petrucci is the complete writer (although I think his magic is in collaboration). Moore is a complete writer (again, best when collaborating). Rudess is a complete writer (but I think he is best as the co-pilot, as opposed to the Petrucci/Moore pilot). Sherinian feeds off collaboration (even his solo albums have tons of guest writers and players). Myung is the bits and pieces guy, but they are some great bits and pieces. Portnoy is the sounding board and big picture tour guide. LaBrie ... not positive. He strikes me as somewhat Portnoyesque also, but on a different level. He can have very good instincts, but never seems to be the spark or even bits and pieces guy (and rarely lyricist).
But I really don't even know what Mangini is in terms of the writer description. People don't have to be a complete writer to be essential.
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I am an OK drummer at best. I can tell you I like watching both, but for largely different reasons.
MP is just fun and energetic to watch, and while he certainly is a much better drummer than I will ever be, I still get what he does. I understand what he does. He does what I do, but more and better.
I watch MM like I would watch any other craftsman. He drums, but what he does bears no resemblance to what I do. I can't have four limbs rocking four different patterns at four different tempos and four different time signatures. I am fascinated by him. It's amazing. But I could never, ever do it.
Yeah, this nails it.
As a guitar player, I would compare it to someone like Jimmy Page vs someone like John Petrucci, Steve Morse, or Guthrie Govan.
With Page, he's way better than me, but with a little practice I could see myself pulling it off. The other guys? Not so much.
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If I had to analyze what I like(d) about DT's drumming, it's not really the complexity per se. It's much rather how the beat interacts with the music. For example, one of the things I really loved about MP's drumming is that he would occasionally invert the beat, i.e. change where the 1 is in the beat. It totally recasts what's going on musically and makes it interesting. That, to my ears, has yet to happen once in MM-era DT.
So much this. To me, that is what defines Portnoy. Not his fills or how many drum pieces he got in on a track.
But I also think the reason Portnoy was able to do that was he was there at the initial stages and he didn't have to try a find his way into the process. If he had an idea, people listened and maybe even if the others thought "I don't know" he probably at least had the "well, let's try it a couple of times before we say no."
There are lots of things that are "repetitive" in early DT that don't sound repetitive at all. If you take the parts by themselves, they might even sound boring. But bring them all together and it sounds like the most interesting thing you've ever heard. But that can only really come from true collaboration. Where Rudess asks Petrucci to play the D instead of the Eb so his idea works better. Seems like by the time Mangini gets up to bat, he can't really have any of the music conform to his ideas. He has to conform to it.
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Damn it. How did this turn into the MP / MM discussion again?
Nevermind. I just wish MM the best and hope he finds the joy that meets the expectations his mind conjured up the day he received the phone call starting his DT journey.
edit: And props to erwinrafael for really taking the time to enjoy all the nuance that MM brings and sharing it on the forum. I honestly don't care about all the "incredible limb" action or look at musicians in terms of "if I can't do it, I can't appreciate it". I care about how it all relates to the song and erwinrafael does a great job looking at it from that angle. Wish there were more like him.
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Seems like by the time Mangini gets up to bat, he can't really have any of the music conform to his ideas. He has to conform to it.
This is my personal takeaway from this, I agree. For all the flak MM gets for his sound, his contributions etc, it seems he's kept at such a short leash by the powers to be that he couldn't do much if he wanted to. I mean, when you have five days to record 18 songs whose drum parts haven't even been written yet, the best you can do is a) do your job to lay down the material at the pace required and b) maybe, here and there, add a flourish you can call your own. But you certainly won't reinterpret a beat and invert it. You can't even add a fill of yours because the song structure is locked in already.
When then your drums get compressed into a pancake, yeah, there's just not much left.
For the record, I don't think the situation is much different with JM.
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These days my favorite drummer is Harrison, but there's no question that MP was top of my list for probably 15 years. I can't think of another drummer (other than Peart maybe) whose fans are making a point out of being able to air drum the parts.
Maybe? I think Peart is unquestionably the most "air drummed to" drummer on the planet. Portnoy is definitely in the next tier along with Bonham and Phil Collins (who's in there merely on the strength of the most famous drum fill ever).
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"I can feel his drumming in the air tonight"
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I don't like Neil Peart. His drum solos on his 360 degree kit just sound like a 5 year old hitting random things with boings and whooshes and train noises .
Plus he looks really stiff when he plays.
Not a fan.
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"I can feel his drumming in the air tonight"
Haha, exactly!
That one drum fill in Hotel California is pretty iconic, too, but that's a whole other thread... :lol :biggrin:
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I think that's just not how DT operates anymore. Even before MP left it had coalesced into MP/JP/JR, and when MP left it was JP/JR from there on. The whole "band effort" thing of ADTOE and DT12, I get the impression, was mostly window dressing to appease the fans.
But if that was the case, then why would some songs on ADTOE or DT12 be credited to just JR and JP and others be credited to the four of them and still some credited to the three of them minus JM or others credited to the three of them minus JLB?
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LaBrie ... not positive. He strikes me as somewhat Portnoyesque also, but on a different level. He can have very good instincts, but never seems to be the spark or even bits and pieces guy (and rarely lyricist).
I think LaBrie has more input than you think, in terms of his vocals anyway. For example, the high vocal section in Illumination Theory "The Pursuit of Truth" (11:27-12:07) was all James. JP went for a coffee (or something), came back to the studio and James had recorded that entire section on his own and they kept it. I'm certain James has a lot of input. Can't remember where I saw that, wish I could find the interview.
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If I had to analyze what I like(d) about DT's drumming, it's not really the complexity per se. It's much rather how the beat interacts with the music. For example, one of the things I really loved about MP's drumming is that he would occasionally invert the beat, i.e. change where the 1 is in the beat. It totally recasts what's going on musically and makes it interesting. That, to my ears, has yet to happen once in MM-era DT.
MM does the "inversion" differently in that he plays the same pattern on the bass and snare but the change in the 1 in the beat is played in the hi-hat. Some examples would be in the Breaking All Illusions stanza where the bass and snare continues the 7-6-5-4-3 time signature then he inserts the hi-hat that does a syncopated 4/4. Another example is in The Pursuit of Truth in IT where the bass and snare does the odd-metered pattern then the hi-hat enters with a 4/4 on the downbeat. This is one of the new dimensions he brought into DT because of his limb independence.
But for a more straightforward jolting changes in the downbeat ala MP, there's Dystopian Overture and the outro of Moment of Betrayal.
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But for a more straightforward jolting changes in the downbeat ala MP, there's Dystopian Overture and the outro of Moment of Betrayal.
THANK YOU! That was gnawing at the back of my mind, and I couldn't figure out which one I was thinking of, but that's it.
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The outro on Behind the Veil also has that "trick" of inverting the beat. He's playing the china cymbal on the downbeat and then it changes to the upbeats (from 6:32 to the end) ;D
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You also get the offbeat cymbal effect at the end of Enigma Machine.
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I'll check those examples when I get home, thanks. That said, a cymbal I don't think can truly invert the beat for me (if it were I would have noticed I would think) when the bass and snare still maintain the regular emphasis. Bass and snare are kinda the "clock" for me, and they decide the polarity of the beat.
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The ending to Moment of Betrayal is really good, but he's not so much inverting the beat as he is doubling the guitar at different times.
Which part of Dystopian Overture do you mean?
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I'll check those examples when I get home, thanks. That said, a cymbal I don't think can truly invert the beat for me (if it were I would have noticed I would think) when the bass and snare still maintain the regular emphasis. Bass and snare are kinda the "clock" for me, and they decide the polarity of the beat.
Which is what makes what Mangini is doing a signature style. He plays the regular beat and inverts the beat at the same time. So he does it differently from MP.
The ending to Moment of Betrayal is really good, but he's not so much inverting the beat as he is doubling the guitar at different times.
Which part of Dystopian Overture do you mean?
Yep, the outro of MB is not an inversion but more of keeping you guessing what the 1 is in the beat.
In Dystopian Overture, that short upbeat section with A New Beginning melody. More of the melody is in 7/8 as followed by the cymbal highlights but the bass and snare is doing 4/4.
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I'm going to need a time stamp for the Overture one lol, but I do remember hearing a small amount of really cool ideas on TA.
Also your example of BAI (assume it's the one I think it is) is one of my favorite MM moments. Not inverting anything, but keeping the stead hi-hat open-close thing while doing the rest in the 7, 6, 5, 7 part. I always try to see if I can play it when I hear it, but I'll never be able to. As soon as I start concentrating on the hihat part, I lose count for the rest, and vice versa.
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I'll check those examples when I get home, thanks. That said, a cymbal I don't think can truly invert the beat for me (if it were I would have noticed I would think) when the bass and snare still maintain the regular emphasis. Bass and snare are kinda the "clock" for me, and they decide the polarity of the beat.
Which is what makes what Mangini is doing a signature style. He plays the regular beat and inverts the beat at the same time. So he does it differently from MP.
I guess that's fair, but for someone like me who isn't a drummer, this kinda subtle stuff will get lost.
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Not that it's likely to happen any time in the near future, but if Mike were to leave, who on earth could even attempt to replace him? Not in the sense of stature or position in the band, but literally who could play his drum lines...?
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Not that it's likely to happen any time in the near future, but if Mike were to leave, who on earth could even attempt to replace him? Not in the sense of stature or position in the band, but literally who could play his drum lines...?
Backing tracks. ;D
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I guess that's fair, but for someone like me who isn't a drummer, this kinda subtle stuff will get lost.
I think you just have to listen to three such lines, then you'll start hearing them all over the music. :) You can not unhear them anymore.
Also, for those who want to know how to recognize immediately if it is Mangini playing the drums without referring to this complex multilimb playing, listen to the bass drum. Go through The Astonishing listening intently to the bass drum patterns, then you will find that when you listen to other Mangini songs, you will recognize it is him playing. It's the same with Portnoy and his hi-hat. :lol
I'm going to need a time stamp for the Overture one lol, but I do remember hearing a small amount of really cool ideas on TA.
Also your example of BAI (assume it's the one I think it is) is one of my favorite MM moments. Not inverting anything, but keeping the stead hi-hat open-close thing while doing the rest in the 7, 6, 5, 7 part. I always try to see if I can play it when I hear it, but I'll never be able to. As soon as I start concentrating on the hihat part, I lose count for the rest, and vice versa.
Yep. He really does not "invert", but achieves the effect of keeping you guessing what the 1 is by playing two patterns at the same time. That's why he is not very airdrummable. You can airdrum one or the other pattern but not both. :lol
Not that it's likely to happen any time in the near future, but if Mike were to leave, who on earth could even attempt to replace him? Not in the sense of stature or position in the band, but literally who could play his drum lines...?
Virgil Donati can. It would just sound more fusion, less metal.
THANK YOU! That was gnawing at the back of my mind, and I couldn't figure out which one I was thinking of, but that's it.
I just remembered another one, in the Walking Shadow. The part with the ominous riff and Mangini is doing this simple ticking clock effect but the downbeat shifts every other line.
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erwinrafael should start a blog (if he hasn't already) that has entries going over specific DT drum parts. I say blog so people can comment, but it is separate from the "lesson" instead of having to find the lesson between all the commentary. And if somebody is commenting sounds like they can handle a special lesson on their own, ER could give rights for a guest blog entry.
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Way off topic, but I just found this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o0qpqq3eF0
If they ever need someone to replace MM......
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Way off topic, but I just found this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o0qpqq3eF0
If they ever need someone to replace MM......
You are looking at it the wrong way. It isn't about who will replace Mangini, but how many people can Mangini simultaneously replace.
He can become Superior Drummer: Mangini edition. Tired of Dave Lombardo, maybe Hetfield finally tells Lars he's tired of his antics .... Just write your new album with Superior Drummer. Then activate the Mangini plug-in. With the click of the button, money transferred to his account, he shows up at the studio, listens to your Superior Drummer songs and quickly replaces it with real drums. One Listen. One take. Your band is allowed to activate the plug-in no more than once every two years.
And before you ask, yes the Rudess plug-in is available as well.
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Not that it's likely to happen any time in the near future, but if Mike were to leave, who on earth could even attempt to replace him? Not in the sense of stature or position in the band, but literally who could play his drum lines...?
I think Bobby Jarzombek could play both Portnoy's and Mangini's drum lines. He would also fit the band very well.
His playing is just insane :eek
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Not that it's likely to happen any time in the near future, but if Mike were to leave, who on earth could even attempt to replace him? Not in the sense of stature or position in the band, but literally who could play his drum lines...?
I think Bobby Jarzombek could play both Portnoy's and Mangini's drum lines. He would also fit the band very well.
His playing is just insane :eek
Bobby J was indeed contacted by DT management to audition but he didn't want to do it. But he's a monster drummer. Check out the last two Fates albums and one called Zierler "Esc".
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Not that it's likely to happen any time in the near future, but if Mike were to leave, who on earth could even attempt to replace him? Not in the sense of stature or position in the band, but literally who could play his drum lines...?
I think Bobby Jarzombek could play both Portnoy's and Mangini's drum lines. He would also fit the band very well.
His playing is just insane :eek
Bobby J was indeed contacted by DT management to audition but he didn't want to do it. But he's a monster drummer. Check out the last two Fates albums and one called Zierler "Esc".
But he rejected it, not because he didn't want it, but because he didn't have enough time to rehearse and learn all the songs due to his touring schedule. Would have loved to see him audition, even though, with so little time to prepare, he could've made mistakes and people would never forgive him, like what happened to Aquiles
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Aquiles really didn't come across well in the audition videos, which is a shame. Not his fault, really. And I don't think it was done with the intention of making him look bad. But the footage for each drummer was so (relatively) short compared to the total audition time, so the fact that his audition footage focused mainly on what he couldn't do, combined with his slightly broken English, just make him look kind of lost. Again, kind of a bummer for him. Even though I initially didn't really give him much of a shot at getting the gig and stacking up against the other guys who were auditioning, I became more familiar with him as a result of the process, and he definitely earned my respect.
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But Aquilles did come across as an AWESOME guy. That much was clear.
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I always felt the list of auditioners who *seriously* entertained joining DT was rather short. I mean, no way in hell can you tell me that Virgil Donati would essentially stop what he's doing and play Mike Portnoy fills day after day.
I think quite of few them would have been open to touring with them for an album or two, but too many of them were such a hot commodity that they weren't going to consign themselves to be a replacement drummer for the rest of their career.
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But Aquilles did come across as an AWESOME guy. That much was clear.
Oddly enough, when I saw the videos I mostly didn't like his image (i.e. the dark metal look) of all things. It was ironic that DT themselves moved into that direction right after. I remember liking MM's casual look, and when they did the first photoshoot, he suddenly had the long dyed black hair, similar to Aquiles.
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Aquiles really didn't come across well in the audition videos, which is a shame. Not his fault, really. And I don't think it was done with the intention of making him look bad. But the footage for each drummer was so (relatively) short compared to the total audition time, so the fact that his audition footage focused mainly on what he couldn't do, combined with his slightly broken English, just make him look kind of lost. Again, kind of a bummer for him. Even though I initially didn't really give him much of a shot at getting the gig and stacking up against the other guys who were auditioning, I became more familiar with him as a result of the process, and he definitely earned my respect.
That's what I meant, Aquiles is a great drummer, in fact, one of my favorites, but the audition didn't make him look so good. Same coul've happened with Bobby if he tried to audition without enough time to practice and get familiar with the songs, he would have just dug his own grave right there for all the audience to watch, over and over again :-X
Aquiles did get it right, though. Don't know how many of you watched his full band version of TDOE, which was released a couple months ago on his new DVD, but it was great! (still prefer Mangini, though)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWpPNBk3ftU
I always felt the list of auditioners who *seriously* entertained joining DT was rather short. I mean, no way in hell can you tell me that Virgil Donati would essentially stop what he's doing and play Mike Portnoy fills day after day.
I think quite of few them would have been open to touring with them for an album or two, but too many of them were such a hot commodity that they weren't going to consign themselves to be a replacement drummer for the rest of their career.
This. 100% this.
Even, if you hear Derek Roddy's interview, after a couple years or something, about the audition, even though he sounded a little bitter over it in general, he basically said he and, I think he mentioned Thomas Lang, among others, weren't interested on joining full time, but rather just connect with the DT guys and enjoy the exposure they were going to get to a big fanbase. The only ones, imo, who really wanted to be in the band were Mangini, Aquiles, and probably Wildoer.
Here's the link to the interview, I haven't listened to it in a loong time, so I might be remembering it differently: https://www.google.com.pe/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjI3sTXu-LQAhUHxiYKHf-pCpAQtwIIHjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Drxg2dPikx3g&usg=AFQjCNHfUHgWL6WJUTdHi_XoPMRuWSGDTQ
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Yup, those three are the exact same list I had in mind.
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I always felt the list of auditioners who *seriously* entertained joining DT was rather short. I mean, no way in hell can you tell me that Virgil Donati would essentially stop what he's doing and play Mike Portnoy fills day after day.
I think quite of few them would have been open to touring with them for an album or two, but too many of them were such a hot commodity that they weren't going to consign themselves to be a replacement drummer for the rest of their career.
I think you are grossly underselling the role as DT's drummer. But that said, yeah, there is definitely something to that. All of those guys were in demand within their own niches, and none of them were just sitting around looking for work. But other than Roddy, who I think was pretty clear about not wanting to officially join, I would hate to speculate about any of their true intentions. We just don't know for sure. I'm not trying to downplay the fact that the audition videos had an obvious bias in the presentation. But at the end of the day, we just don't really know too much about what any of these guys were actually thinking, other than what they have said.
Here is my personal speculation (and it is only speculation), just based on the audition videos and my very vague (and perhaps faulty) recollection of what little snippets we found around the Internet afterward:
-Mangini: Really wanted the gig. Was perhaps chosen in advance, or at least the band was leaning that way.
-Priester: Appears to have really wanted the gig. At the very least, was happy to get the exposure. Unless I am missing something, you don't cancel a couple of gigs and travel halfway around the world if you aren't serious.
-Wildoer: Appears to have really wanted the gig and would likely have taken it if offered. But he is in an interesting position. He obviously has a great relationship with James and was very enthusiastic about working with the DT guys. But abandoning Darkane and likely relocating to the U.S. would have entailed a HUGE life change. Hard to say if he really would have taken the gig if offered, or if he was just putting his best foot forward for the exposure. Or maybe doing it with the mindset of, "I'm really comfortable where I am, but no harm in testing the waters and going for it, and if by chance I am offered the job, I can make the decision at that point." A lot of us in the working world make similar choices when we are relatively happy with where we are and an unexpected opportunity comes our way.
-Minneman: He is hard to figure out. Despite being briefly outspoken shortly after the footage was released, he is hard to read for me. His comments after the fact seemed to say he would not have taken the gig. But I remember feeling like there were other comments indicating he might have if everything fell into place in a way that made sense for him. So I think maybe he was also kind of in the mindset of "I'm really comfortable where I am, but no harm in testing the waters and going for it, and if by chance I am offered the job, I can make the decision at that point," but maybe not exactly for the same types of reasons as Wildoer might have been. I think he was perhaps more in the "I don't think this is a direction that will ultimately work for me, but let's just go in open minded, give it a shot, and see what happens." I could be off, but that is my best guess.
-Lang and Donati seemed to me to have similar mindsets in terms of something along the lines of, "Eh, probably not the direction that will be best, but it's a good opportunity, so let's give it a shot and see what happens."
-Roddy, like Mangini and Wildoer is fairly easy to figure out because he told us in detail what he was thinking going in, so there is little mystery there.
Anyway, those are my best guesses. But like anyone else's, a lot of it us pure speculation and "feeling" more than being fact-based. I could be overly optimistic in my assessments in terms of whether any of these guys outside of Mangini was truly interested. But ultimately, we know so little about these guys' private lives and their decision making processes that all we can do is guess based on the scantest of information.
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I have been a music fan my whole life, and while I don't consider myself a drummer, I played when I was younger and have a nice set collecting dust in my basement. And I had never even heard of Thomas Lang. Or Derek Roddy. Or Aquilles Priester.
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You had never heard of Lang? That guy was one of the hottest commodities in that lineup. He played with Robert Fripp, Peter Gabriel, Robbie Williams, Paul Gilbert...
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It's interesting to me that some of them weren't interested in becoming full-time members of DT, yet it's starting to look like DT wasn't really looking for a traditional full-time drummer. Some of those guys might have been far more interested if they knew it was going to be more like a session kind of gig. This wouldn't work for DT, of course, they needed somebody who was ostensibly a proper band member.
And perhaps I'm the only one who sees it this way, but I always thought the auditions were strictly for the press. Mangini wanted the gig and they wanted him. Priester didn't come off looking so good, but that's the very basis for reality television which is what the auditions were. I seem to recall one of them suggesting just that and not being pleased about it. It was good publicity for them, but does anybody actually think Lang (who was my favorite) and Priester were ever really in the running? I thought the whole process was about as legitimate as one of those celebrity chef things.
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Agreed, it was very smart PR but you can't watch that and think anyone other than Mangini was a serious contender.
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You had never heard of Lang? That guy was one of the hottest commodities in that lineup. He played with Robert Fripp, Peter Gabriel, Robbie Williams, Paul Gilbert...
I've heard of Fripp, but couldn't tell you the first thing about him. Gabriel is popular, but I've only heard his radio songs, and while I know who Paul Gilbert is, I've never heard his solo stuff. Oh, and who is Robbie Williams? :lol
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You had never heard of Lang? That guy was one of the hottest commodities in that lineup. He played with Robert Fripp, Peter Gabriel, Robbie Williams, Paul Gilbert...
I've heard of Fripp, but couldn't tell you the first thing about him. Gabriel is popular, but I've only heard his radio songs, and while I know who Paul Gilbert is, I've never heard his solo stuff. Oh, and who is Robbie Williams? :lol
Brittish boy band guy that carved his own solo career. You old cahoot! :lol
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Lol, no offense, but you guys need to get of your small bubble a bit more :lol
Robbie Williams is one of the biggest-touring people in Europe. The guy essentially *only* plays stadiums because nothing else will hold that amount of people. He has sold 5 times more albums than Beyonce.
Robert Fripp, I *do* assume you've heard of this band called King Crimson?
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Lol, no offense, but you guys need to get of your small bubble a bit more :lol
Guilty as charged! :lol
Robert Fripp, I *do* assume you've heard of this band called King Crimson?
Yeah, I don't get King Crimson at all. DT covered Lark Tongues and WTF is that supposed to be?
Also, I rented out one of their CDs from the local library. Can't remember which one it was, but the first song was Elephant Talk. Again, WTF?? :lol
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Lol, no offense, but you guys need to get of your small bubble a bit more :lol
Well, no offense right back, but: I don't think I or anyone else here "needs" to do any such thing. Can't really speak for anyone else, but I just don't feel the need to go out of my way to seek out every obscure or not so obscure artist that others on the forum enjoy. Yeah, I've discovered some amazing music over the years by recommendations of others, and have had my horizons expanded in the process. But at the end of the day, it's only music, and my life is not in any way worse off by not knowing about some musician out there who may or may not be writing some amazing stuff. I like what I like, and there is more than enough amazing music on my current list of artists that I don't particularly feel like I am missing out by thoroughly enjoying my current list of favorites.
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I don't have enough time in my day to listen to music I actually like.
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Right there with you, TAC.
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I had heard of Lang, but not the other two you mentioned, Tim. The other candidates I was familiar with.
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I'm not suggesting you listen to Robbie Williams (neither do I), it's just surprising to hear when people aren't even aware of him, when he sold close to the same number of albums as Michael Jackson did.
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I always felt the list of auditioners who *seriously* entertained joining DT was rather short. I mean, no way in hell can you tell me that Virgil Donati would essentially stop what he's doing and play Mike Portnoy fills day after day.
I think quite of few them would have been open to touring with them for an album or two, but too many of them were such a hot commodity that they weren't going to consign themselves to be a replacement drummer for the rest of their career.
I think you are grossly underselling the role as DT's drummer. But that said, yeah, there is definitely something to that. All of those guys were in demand within their own niches, and none of them were just sitting around looking for work. But other than Roddy, who I think was pretty clear about not wanting to officially join, I would hate to speculate about any of their true intentions. We just don't know for sure. I'm not trying to downplay the fact that the audition videos had an obvious bias in the presentation. But at the end of the day, we just don't really know too much about what any of these guys were actually thinking, other than what they have said.
Here is my personal speculation (and it is only speculation), just based on the audition videos and my very vague (and perhaps faulty) recollection of what little snippets we found around the Internet afterward:
-Mangini: Really wanted the gig. Was perhaps chosen in advance, or at least the band was leaning that way.
-Priester: Appears to have really wanted the gig. At the very least, was happy to get the exposure. Unless I am missing something, you don't cancel a couple of gigs and travel halfway around the world if you aren't serious.
-Wildoer: Appears to have really wanted the gig and would likely have taken it if offered. But he is in an interesting position. He obviously has a great relationship with James and was very enthusiastic about working with the DT guys. But abandoning Darkane and likely relocating to the U.S. would have entailed a HUGE life change. Hard to say if he really would have taken the gig if offered, or if he was just putting his best foot forward for the exposure. Or maybe doing it with the mindset of, "I'm really comfortable where I am, but no harm in testing the waters and going for it, and if by chance I am offered the job, I can make the decision at that point." A lot of us in the working world make similar choices when we are relatively happy with where we are and an unexpected opportunity comes our way.
-Minneman: He is hard to figure out. Despite being briefly outspoken shortly after the footage was released, he is hard to read for me. His comments after the fact seemed to say he would not have taken the gig. But I remember feeling like there were other comments indicating he might have if everything fell into place in a way that made sense for him. So I think maybe he was also kind of in the mindset of "I'm really comfortable where I am, but no harm in testing the waters and going for it, and if by chance I am offered the job, I can make the decision at that point," but maybe not exactly for the same types of reasons as Wildoer might have been. I think he was perhaps more in the "I don't think this is a direction that will ultimately work for me, but let's just go in open minded, give it a shot, and see what happens." I could be off, but that is my best guess.
-Lang and Donati seemed to me to have similar mindsets in terms of something along the lines of, "Eh, probably not the direction that will be best, but it's a good opportunity, so let's give it a shot and see what happens."
-Roddy, like Mangini and Wildoer is fairly easy to figure out because he told us in detail what he was thinking going in, so there is little mystery there.
Anyway, those are my best guesses. But like anyone else's, a lot of it us pure speculation and "feeling" more than being fact-based. I could be overly optimistic in my assessments in terms of whether any of these guys outside of Mangini was truly interested. But ultimately, we know so little about these guys' private lives and their decision making processes that all we can do is guess based on the scantest of information.
I think this was spot on. Pretty much my same thoughts.
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I hope Myung does something with Wildoer. Wasn't like JM smiling when Peter was playing?
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I'm not suggesting you listen to Robbie Williams (neither do I), it's just surprising to hear when people aren't even aware of him, when he sold close to the same number of albums as Michael Jackson did.
Who's Michael Jackson?
;D
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I'm so out of touch with "what's popular" I have never heard of Robbie Williams and I bet someone can name other really famous musicians that I have never heard of.
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I keep up with what is popular (at least here in the States), and I have never heard of Robbie Williams. Is he a Europe-only thing?
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See, Old TAC is not so clueless after all! :lol
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See, Old TAC is not so clueless after all! :lol
Well, I dunno if I'd go THAT far.... :lol
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See, Old TAC is not so clueless after all! :lol
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/tfys_zpsyd58l7ci.gif)
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:rollin
Love you guys! :lol
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:tup
Nice job, hef.
T -- :rollin
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TAC's I'm So Old List
1. No Facebook
2. No popular Culture (See Robbie Williams)
3. Sucks at Roulette's with the youth running them.
4.
5.
6.
I'll leave these open for others to pile on. :lol
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Still goes to the library to borrow books.
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You guys tell me you've never heard either of these two songs?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LN-mg_5GGM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtknoBKJFDc
I mean, yeah, he's very Europe-centric, but damn, the guy is huge. HUGE!
And back towards the topic at hand, you don't have to know Robbie (grumble grumble, I guess :D), but trust me, you don't get the drummer job for Robbie Williams unless you are absolutely top notch material. Same with Peter Gabriel, and Robert Fripp, those two are meticulous about their live sound, you have to be in the top 10 of drummers to score their gig.
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:tup
Nice job, hef.
T -- :rollin
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/other/Jack3.gif)
You guys tell me you've never heard either of these two songs?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LN-mg_5GGM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtknoBKJFDc
I mean, yeah, he's very Europe-centric, but damn, the guy is huge. HUGE!
Is he huge in America? Apparently not.
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TAC's I'm So Old List
1. No Facebook
2. No popular Culture (See Robbie Williams)
3. Sucks at Roulette's with the youth running them.
4.
5.
6.
I'll leave these open for others to pile on. :lol
:rollin
Just so happens that to share a file with a fellow forumer today, I had to wait until my 13 y/o came home from school to do it for me! :lol
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Still goes to the library to borrow books.
Hell Yes! :metal :metal
I never leave home without my Library Card! :lol
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You guys tell me you've never heard either of these two songs?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LN-mg_5GGM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtknoBKJFDc
To the best of my recollection, I've never heard either of these two songs (until now).
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Don't worry Tim - I know Robbie Williams. Nanu, nanu ;)
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TAC's I'm So Old List
1. No Facebook
2. No popular Culture (See Robbie Williams)
3. Sucks at Roulette's with the youth running them.
4.
5.
6.
I'll leave these open for others to pile on. :lol
:rollin
Just so happens that to share a file with a fellow forumer today, I had to wait until my 13 y/o came home from school to do it for me! :lol
You're teeing it up for me Tim! :lol
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I remember when Robbie Williams was fired from Take That in 1995, in Germany there was a hotline installed for desperate fans. I think the number was even in the TV news. They actually feared that fans could commit suicide ...
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At some point he played in Boston in the 2000s, and it was definitely an event. Of course Boston is certainly more European-infused than most cities, so there's that.
What about Spice Girls? Do people here know who they are/were?
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Count me in as not knowing Robbie Williams. That probably doesn't help TAC much though because my cultural references are swiss cheese at this point.
TAC's so old he refers to actors as "that guy in that movie with the other guy." Worse, he then has to be told that Chris Pine, Ryan Reynolds and Ryan Gosling are not the same *guy*.
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I've never heard of Chris Pine!
What about Spice Girls? Do people here know who they are/were?
Tell me what you want. What you really really want.
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At some point he played in Boston in the 2000s, and it was definitely an event. Of course Boston is certainly more European-infused than most cities, so there's that.
What about Spice Girls? Do people here know who they are/were?
My poor wife had to take my niece to Spice World the movie. She died a little that day.
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What about Spice Girls? Do people here know who they are/were?
They take turns being the judge on America's Got Talent right? Actually, if you don't know them it might not be that you are too old, but rather too young considering they were huge 20 years ago.
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I saw that movie, and even though I had a thing for Sporty Spice, it was still soooo bad.
But yeah, regarding Robbie, I take it everybody here knows the size of the Wembley Stadium from the Queen Tribute concert. Robbie fills that with ease.
EDIT: A friend just pointed out, if you've seen Finding Nemo, you've heard Robbie Williams. He sings the "Somewhere under the sea" cover.
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Never heard of Robbie Williams. Love to go to the public library.
Remember the Spice Girls were huge for a minute or two, even the debates we had over which one was the hottest.
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Oh, and who is Robbie Williams?
I have never heard of Robbie Williams
and I have never heard of Robbie Williams.
To the best of my recollection, I've never heard either of these two songs (until now).
Count me in as not knowing Robbie Williams.
Never heard of Robbie Williams.
(https://images.firstwefeast.com/complex/image/upload/apjnkt247rohxfumarif.jpg)
Oh wait...of course there's always one :loser: in every crowd..
Brittish boy band guy that carved his own solo career.
;D
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Never heard those songs Rumbo posted either, but will count myself as a Sporty Spice lover. She was stuck with the goofy look, but was very attractive.
Upon further research, they all have actually aged very nicely, except for Posh and her 3 Saltines a Day diet.
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Hey Tim. You're just not cultured enough to understand. :lol
I see Robbie a lot on The Graham Norton Show on BBC America. The best talk show out there.
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Tim, my man, you ro realize memes of Emeril is way outdated right? :lol
From one old fogey to another...
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:lol
Bazinga!
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Tim, my man, you ro realize memes of Emeril is way outdated right? :lol
:rollin :rollin :rollin
I do now! :rollin
That's what I get for trying to..
(https://sampleaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/emeril.jpg)
:facepalm:
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder188/500x/35369188.jpg)
:lol
Bazinga!
Quiet you! :lol
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I'm calling it now. Mike leaves after this tour cycle... or at the latest after the next. Portnoy returns. Everyone happy... much party. DT return to former glory. Trail off into the sunset. The world ends. Not necessarily in that order. :loser:
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I'm calling it now. Mike leaves after this tour cycle... or at the latest after the next. Portnoy returns. Everyone happy... much party. DT return to former glory. Trail off into the sunset. The world ends. Not necessarily in that order. :loser:
Well you're definitely correct about the order, I think for the first bit of that to happen, the last thing has to happen first.
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True that
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Well yes, that's what I implied.
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I think MP's dead body would still be in 5 band if it was the end of times.
I'd still buy all those projects.
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I'm calling it now. Mike leaves after this tour cycle... or at the latest after the next. Portnoy returns. Everyone happy... much party. DT return to former glory. Trail off into the sunset. The world ends. Not necessarily in that order. :loser:
Well, given the enthusiasm in MIke's last tweet, I would bet NO.
"I'm home! On to actually getting on the kit to learn the 2017 tour songs. Converting what's on paper to my kit is pretty weird, but FUN!"
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erwinrafael should start a blog (if he hasn't already) that has entries going over specific DT drum parts. I say blog so people can comment, but it is separate from the "lesson" instead of having to find the lesson between all the commentary. And if somebody is commenting sounds like they can handle a special lesson on their own, ER could give rights for a guest blog entry.
Nah, I wouldn't have time for that. :lol But I am more than willing to share a lot of my fanboyism over Mangini. For example, I have created a Mike Mangini Pre-DT Sampler playlist on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLk3003sHn29s5A0HSbDl-8KeN-YFWKKeX
I am actually playing this now while writing my thesis, back-to-back with my 1-CD Mike Mangini DT sampler.
Bridges in the Sky
A Life Left Behind
Enigma Machine
On the Backs of Angels
Surrender to Reason
The Path that Divides
The Walking Shadow
Breaking All Illusions
Illumination Theory
Three Days and Lost not Forgotten sadly did not make the cut due to time constraints. :lol
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Wow.....wayyyy too late to this thread, I only just watched the interview, and naturally, the topic on the thread is way off lol
Anyway - I'm pretty shocked by all the things he said, doesn't seem at all like him. I totally understand his frustration over not getting any writing credits, and it definitely seems like he doesn't like being on the road away from home for as long as they are (DT has some of the most intense touring itinerary!!) and he also said he misses teaching as well. I know we shouldn't look too far into what he said, but I can't help but feel it's all adding up to something. Of course he could've been having a really bad day, but that doesn't mean that he didn't mean what he said. Hopefully, if things are starting to build up inside, that he'll have the sense to discuss it with the rest of the band instead of doing anything rash.
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Well, a social media post on November 24 suggests that there's some trouble going on in Mangini's mind:
"Happy Thanksgiving USA ! I'm focussing on gratitude and trying to block out all other thoughts (even though it is tough to) with song parts and one's own thoughts on all kinds of things looping in the mind."
Then a rather tired post on November 27:
"I don't remember ever flying on a Sunday after Thanksgiving 😡I cant stand missing an NFL day 😡😡 Weather is good though 😁."
Subsequent posts, however, seemed to portray a better state of mind, with him focused on learning songs for the Images and Words tour:
November 28: "Show tomorrow night. :) I'm continuing to study (but not play) songs in the "time cracks" of life. I like to classify what I experience as a "medium term" memory where I can layer audio and images in my mind. i.e. I can hear my own voice saying, "4,4,3" while I hear a song in the key and time of the original. This then transfers to the stage while I'm playing, hearing those memories and hearing the sounds of my environment. I do the same with images. I might see my handwriting, or music notation and other things sort of visually layered. I like to imagine giant numbers too, like a 1,2 & 3, to count verses for example. A lot of it only lasts limited months though. Still, I believe this is a learned skill just by believing you can and then working at it. If you see me giggling on stage, it sometimes means I've gone back in time to something funny about my experience with that song. Too bad an electrode isn't hooked up to my brain and projected on a show screen. ? Well, maybe we're all better off that nobody invented that yet."
November 30: "Here's more info on song learning: I use a written "shape" form that looks like a big grid with blocks, meaning it has headings (Intro, Riff 1, Verse, Pre Chorus, Chorus,) on the left the rows are numbered (1,2,3...) maybe 3A, 3B too, and the number of bars fill in the grid.
That works insanely well for more normal song forms. Also, this form fits on a small square of paper. That worked with Another Day when I had to learn it a day or two on the road with no drum practice, but perform it one time. I taped that to my mini snare.
With most DT songs, I have to expand the amount of rows and change headings because things don't repeat. It takes two pages sometimes, so I have to mentally picture/think of one song as three songs. One example I remember is Dark Eternal Night. I'll write 6 5 6 5(>3) 6 5 6 15(555) when the crazy part starts on a separate piece of paper. I'll use numbers like that so that I know that the last 5 on part 1 accents every 3 16ths and the 15 means there are three groups of 5/16. Later, I wrote 20 to mean four groups of 5/16. Seeing a 15, then a 20 is easier for mind to photographically remember as meaning to play 3 5's on one phrase and 4 5's on the last phrase."
December 4: "More on song learning with a different spin: Just a thought here on how music transcends barriers and it is a truly amazing and great thing. As today is an off day, I am reading a lot as a way to self-educate on whatever subject I'm choosing today. I'm finding the understanding of the 'word,' and narrative/argumentation/ rhetoric etc. is almost the most important thing; a priori of sorts. Otherwise, understanding different views is more difficult due to emotions ruining how we reason. My understanding as a teacher of what it took to open up a musician to styles other than his/her own led to my really valuing how to make connections between seemingly unrelated things. i.e. picturing block forms of song outlines is the same thing as picturing outlines on any subject for school tests, or for memorizing sports game plans. Having a good "pitch" was part of it too. That's where making a good case with verifiable truths or at least some good proofs comes in handy. Like all (or most) of you, and most people most likely, we have so little time to ourselves on the road and so much to do in just keeping up our chops as a prerequisite for our jobs. There's no time for 'lazy.' A good benefit is how non-musical learning can morph back to the instrument. i.e. Seeing good cases made for things reminds me to not put too many ideas into one drum solo, or one drum fill etc."
On December 6, he retweeted the Dream Theater post: Thank you to our crew for all of their hard work in making The Astonishing Live show happen night after night."
Then earlier today: "I'm home! On to actually getting on the kit to learn the 2017 tour songs. Converting what's on paper to my kit is pretty weird, but FUN!"
My guess what's really happening now with Mangini? He's tired.
-
Seems pretty obvious that something is really bothering him. No clue if it's DT related though my guess is yes but it could be a personal
issue also.
-
"With most DT songs, I have to expand the amount of rows and change headings because things don't repeat. It takes two pages sometimes, so I have to mentally picture/think of one song as three songs. One example I remember is Dark Eternal Night. I'll write 6 5 6 5(>3) 6 5 6 15(555) when the crazy part starts on a separate piece of paper. I'll use numbers like that so that I know that the last 5 on part 1 accents every 3 16ths and the 15 means there are three groups of 5/16. Later, I wrote 20 to mean four groups of 5/16. Seeing a 15, then a 20 is easier for mind to photographically remember as meaning to play 3 5's on one phrase and 4 5's on the last phrase."
(https://ci.memecdn.com/9118538_t.jpg)
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No wonder he's tired - I was exhausted after reading a single quote :lol
-
I actually know what bits he's talking about just from those number groupings. The instrumental section of that song is so much fun to analyze.
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Seems pretty obvious that something is really bothering him. No clue if it's DT related though my guess is yes but it could be a personal
issue also.
Well he did come from what was pretty much a "day job" before joining DT. So I can imagine it's a pretty big life change for him and his family going from seeing MM the husband and father everyday when he comes home from work to not seeing him for weeks at a time...
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Seems pretty obvious that something is really bothering him. No clue if it's DT related though my guess is yes but it could be a personal
issue also.
Well he did come from what was pretty much a "day job" before joining DT. So I can imagine it's a pretty big life change for him and his family going from seeing MM the husband and father everyday when he comes home from work to not seeing him for weeks at a time...
Which is why, I think, Mangini may not be around (again, total speculation on my part) after the 2017 tour is over. Once they do that "break," I wonder if he'll not want to do the long touring all over again. That said, I also wonder about that regarding DT. 30 years of massive tours...will they scale it back in years to come. If so, perhaps my speculation about Mangini may be wrong, regardless...
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I've never heard of Chris Pine!
I still wish I'd never heard of him.
As someone else TAC's age, I definitely had heard of Spice Girls but not Robbie Williams.
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Prior to reading this interview, my sense was that Mangini would probably be with Dream Theater until they decide to hang it up. Now, it seems more probable than not that he leaves before they call it a day, perhaps opening the door for a Portnoy reunion.
This is all pretty reckless speculation of course. I personally hope that Mangini and the band smooth everything out and ride off into the sunset together. The dude's an awesome drummer, a super nice guy, and is an absolute trooper for putting up with a lot of undeserved flak.
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I agree. I could feel the tension within him when he was doing that interview. But he is a phenomenal drummer and hope he sticks with Dream Theater until the end and hopefully gets to help with the song writing process, fully like Mike Portnoy once had.
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Prior to reading this interview, my sense was that Mangini would probably be with Dream Theater until they decide to hang it up. Now, it seems more probable than not that he leaves before they call it a day, perhaps opening the door for a Portnoy reunion.
This is all pretty reckless speculation of course. I personally hope that Mangini and the band smooth everything out and ride off into the sunset together. The dude's an awesome drummer, a super nice guy, and is an absolute trooper for putting up with a lot of undeserved flak.
Mangini is just the best fit for DT, let's just hope they give him more writing chances and creative freedom, he really deserves it after 6 years in the band as a full member. I hope he never leaves :-\
Having said that, if he ever wanted to leave to focus more on his family, teaching or any other project, I'm not sure if a reunion with Portnoy would actually work. Just look at how the band operates right now: JP is the main writer and only producer, as well as the leader of the band. Jordan has found much more creative freedom than what he had with MP (there's interviews with him about that from the time MP left). JP, for the most part, comes up with the setlists and the bigger/most important decisions.
If MP ever rejoined, either he would want to get some of that control back, only to clash with JP and strongly disagree on things; or he would just fill a different, minor role from the one he had before he left, which he wouldn't be too happy about.
Also, the Portnoy - LaBrie relationship was pretty much destroyed after James said they wouldn't accept MP back, and he answered saying he was disrespectful... you get the point. If they ever agree on having MP back and there's no creative conflicts between JP and MP, James would probably feel pressured to leave, and that would be another issue to worry about.
I think the only one who would be ok with Portnoy returning, at least right now, would be Jordan, since they continued to be good friends and speak often. The rest? I really doubt it, specially, as I said, JLB and JM.
I'm glad this is all speculation, though. Really hope Mangini stays and they make him a bigger part of the writing process. Also, hope they slow a bit with their extensive touring, so they can have more time to rest and be with their families ¿.
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Well if that all went down and he did rejoin, they'd have to lay down the law with him, and say 'this is how we do things now, like it or not.' MP would have to accept that it's more of a democracy now and that he'd have to take a back seat on a lot of things. Nothing would go back to how it was.
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I also read and then heard the interview and I don't know what to think. I don't want to jump to conclusion, but it was... weird. Yep, he might be simply tired, but there's also something bitter there I can't quite put my finger on and it makes me wonder. We'll see how it'll go from now on. But I feel the possibility of MM leaving is bigger now.
There's other thing to think about - say that the MP reunion really did happen. They would be stuck with that decision forever because they'd be admitting to the fans, "okay, we can't do it without him". Which would definitely give MP the leverage and would not go well with JP, IMHO. Also, I too don't see James with MP in the band at the same time, not yet.
I agree that without MP the band definitely lost something and I never wanted MP to leave, but once it happened, I think it should stay that way. I also think they could and should take a bit more care of MM. Drummers like these don't grow on trees, y'know?
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There's other thing to think about - say that the MP reunion really did happen. They would be stuck with that decision forever because they'd be admitting to the fans, "okay, we can't do it without him". Which would definitely give MP the leverage and would not go well with JP, IMHO. Also, I too don't see James with MP in the band at the same time, not yet.
In this very hypotethical scenario that is being discussed Mangini would leave of his own free will. It's not that DT is playing small, half empty clubs and they fire Mangini and then beg MP on their knees to come back, so it would hardly seem desperate.
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Well if that all went down and he did rejoin, they'd have to lay down the law with him, and say 'this is how we do things now, like it or not.' MP would have to accept that it's more of a democracy now and that he'd have to take a back seat on a lot of things. Nothing would go back to how it was.
Actually I'd say it sounds like less of a democracy. But I agree with the general principle that it's different now, and they would probably expect him to accept that JP is the leader now.
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Well, since we're all building castles in air and talking about what if situations... what if Mike is bummed to have lost the DT gig, and would just be happy to be back? not to the point of being a session-paid drummer with no input whatsover, but to just be back and be content with JP leading the show, without having to take over again the setlists and DVDs and 98% of every detail about the band.
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Eh, I get what you guys are saying, if MP was to rejoin the group I think the guys would lay out for him how it's different now in terms of responsibilities and roles. But to be honest, I'd guess that after a certain amount of time, everyone would kinda just fall right back into the roles they had been playing for the last 10 years or so of MP's tenure with the band. It's human nature.
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Eh, I get what you guys are saying, if MP was to rejoin the group I think the guys would lay out for him how it's different now in terms of responsibilities and roles. But to be honest, I'd guess that after a certain amount of time, everyone would kinda just fall right back into the roles they had been playing for the last 10 years or so of MP's tenure with the band. It's human nature.
I hope that never happens. MP is who he is, I don't think he could change even if he wanted to. He always said himself he's a control freak. Then there's the friction between him and JLB and JM. I remember after MP left in 2010, in an interview he compared being in DT to a marriage and said he has fallen out of love with a couple of the wives. It was totally clear he meant JLB and JM, he didn't want to be in a band with them any more. As far as I know both haven't spoken a word to MP since then. I love MP in Flying Colors and the Neal Morse Band, but I fear if he'd return to DT the chemistry in the band would be completely destroyed.
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I'll adopt MP's philosophy of 'never say never' but I think it would be less than 1% chance given all that has happened.
More likely scenario to me is that JR lets JP know he is done. MM decides it's time to go to. JP ends up pulling the plug on DT but
he and MP put something new together with a new vocalist, new bass and keys. JR is getting up there and it's got to be getting
tough to be in a constantly touring metal band. I have felt for some time that he is nearing the finish line with DT.
But even this scenario is very unlikely.
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... there's the friction between him and JLB and JM. I remember after MP left in 2010, in an interview he compared being in DT to a marriage and said he has fallen out of love with a couple of the wives. It was totally clear he meant JLB and JM, he didn't want to be in a band with them any more. As far as I know both haven't spoken a word to MP since then.
Because of that, I think we'd have a way better chance of getting a 3rd LTE album before we get to hear a new DT album with MP.
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I do see MP coming back to DT, but *only* if DT gets to a point where they are more or less forced into doing it.
In other words, even if MM leaves on his own, there's no way the rest of the band is gonna go back to MP, and MP's not gonna approach them about rejoining the band. First, DT will try at least one more drummer. However, if they continue to play to progressively smaller audiences in the future, they'll eventually get to a point where they'll realize or management will tell them that the only way to bring back bigger audiences is by reuniting with MP. Not unlike what happened with Van Halen, who, after a failed attempt with Gary Cherone, eventually returned to David Lee Roth.
If that happens and the band approaches MP about it, I'd imagine that he'd be willing to rejoin, but he definitely would have some stipulations for his return and largely want to return to the role he played previously, which the rest of the guys would have to accept to a large degree. I doubt that JL would willingly leave DT since it's is his bread and butter, but one thing that would be addressed would be their relationship. Same thing to a lesser degree with JM. It seems unlikely, but then again, it seemed unlikely that Roger Waters would ever play with Pink Floyd again, that DLR would ever return to Van Halen and that David Ellefson would return to Megadeth, but all these happened. So it's not out of the question. But if it does happen, it won't be any time soon.
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First, DT will try at least one more drummer.
I agree. But probably only one.
There would have to be a meeting regarding division of roles. It would be an extremely business-like arrangement.
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Eh, I get what you guys are saying, if MP was to rejoin the group I think the guys would lay out for him how it's different now in terms of responsibilities and roles. But to be honest, I'd guess that after a certain amount of time, everyone would kinda just fall right back into the roles they had been playing for the last 10 years or so of MP's tenure with the band. It's human nature.
I hope that never happens. MP is who he is, I don't think he could change even if he wanted to. He always said himself he's a control freak. Then there's the friction between him and JLB and JM. I remember after MP left in 2010, in an interview he compared being in DT to a marriage and said he has fallen out of love with a couple of the wives. It was totally clear he meant JLB and JM, he didn't want to be in a band with them any more. As far as I know both haven't spoken a word to MP since then. I love MP in Flying Colors and the Neal Morse Band, but I fear if he'd return to DT the chemistry in the band would be completely destroyed.
You're right about them not talking at all. I even have a screen shot from an MP tweet from when he was asked if he still got in touch with the DT members after the split. His exact words were: "Jordan frequently, JP ocasionally".
Also, it's no secret that the relationship between MP and JLB was bad already before the split, and after it just ended completely.
I'll adopt MP's philosophy of 'never say never' but I think it would be less than 1% chance given all that has happened.
More likely scenario to me is that JR lets JP know he is done. MM decides it's time to go to. JP ends up pulling the plug on DT but
he and MP put something new together with a new vocalist, new bass and keys. JR is getting up there and it's got to be getting
tough to be in a constantly touring metal band. I have felt for some time that he is nearing the finish line with DT.
But even this scenario is very unlikely.
I think this is taking it too far. I'm almost sure that, if MP rejoined the band, James would leave and would probably focus on his solo band, but even if Myung's relationship with MP isn't too good, actually, I think they would be able to work again, unlike James and Mike.
The Jordan case is different. I agree with you on the fact that he's not going to be forever with the band, but I don't see him leaving soon either, he seems to be really enjoying his role in the band, specially with an album like TA. The deciding factor would be his age (he just turned 60) and his will to explore other projects. Let's keep in mind he's been the one from all the current DT members to have more external projects and guest appearances with other artists. Also, his albums with Levin Minnemann Rudess have been some of the most keyboard crazyness-heavy albums he's ever done since his solo music. He's even said that, even though he loves being in DT, he really enjoys being able to express some of his ideas outside the DT style and without the big walls of heavy guitar.
I can see him focusing more on that on the next years, but I would give him, at least, one more album and tour with DT, which would end with him being 63 or 64. I assume he would like to explore other projects before turning 70.
If that ends up happening with:
- MM leaving
- MP rejoing
- JLB leaving because of MP
- New (heavier?) singer
- JR leaving a few years after that
- New keyboardist in with not big contribution to the songwriting
I think the band would be considered as one of those "revolving door bands" where it just can't keep clasting members. Also, without JR, the main writing would be 80% JP, 5% JM and 15% MP with his usual changes and production directions. Don't really know how that would end up, but not that interesting, imo.
Again, this is just crazy speculation, but, If any of the things we've been talking actually happens, we have to project which effects would those changes affect the band in the long term
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When I said something 'new' I meant under a totally moniker than DT. New band. New name. New energy.
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When I said something 'new' I meant under a totally moniker than DT. New band. New name. New energy.
Shattered Fortress?
:neverusethis:
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"Enough" will be the name. Because you know, Never Enough, but now it's actually happening.
I'll show myself out.
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Just wondering, if the band reads this thread, will they censor MMs interviews from now on? :censored :censored :censored
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I'm actually surprised the one in the OP was released.
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I do see MP coming back to DT, but *only* if DT gets to a point where they are more or less forced into doing it.
In other words, even if MM leaves on his own, there's no way the rest of the band is gonna go back to MP, and MP's not gonna approach them about rejoining the band. First, DT will try at least one more drummer. However, if they continue to play to progressively smaller audiences in the future, they'll eventually get to a point where they'll realize or management will tell them that the only way to bring back bigger audiences is by reuniting with MP. Not unlike what happened with Van Halen, who, after a failed attempt with Gary Cherone, eventually returned to David Lee Roth.
If that happens and the band approaches MP about it, I'd imagine that he'd be willing to rejoin, but he definitely would have some stipulations for his return and largely want to return to the role he played previously, which the rest of the guys would have to accept to a large degree. I doubt that JL would willingly leave DT since it's is his bread and butter, but one thing that would be addressed would be their relationship. Same thing to a lesser degree with JM. It seems unlikely, but then again, it seemed unlikely that Roger Waters would ever play with Pink Floyd again, that DLR would ever return to Van Halen and that David Ellefson would return to Megadeth, but all these happened. So it's not out of the question. But if it does happen, it won't be any time soon.
Well, it's not like MP is some famous front man like DLR. If their popularity sagged to that point I don't think bringing back MP would save them.
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Well, it's not like MP is some famous front man like DLR. If their popularity sagged to that point I don't think bringing back MP would save them.
Agreed. Reports that the European shows are selling well for the I&W and Beyond tour tell me that playing the classic material is what will draw the crowds. As much as I like The Astonishing, the mixed reaction to the album by the fan base is the main reason sales were down this year, especially on this last U.S. leg, not because Mangini is there instead of Portnoy.
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I do see MP coming back to DT, but *only* if DT gets to a point where they are more or less forced into doing it.
In other words, even if MM leaves on his own, there's no way the rest of the band is gonna go back to MP, and MP's not gonna approach them about rejoining the band. First, DT will try at least one more drummer. However, if they continue to play to progressively smaller audiences in the future, they'll eventually get to a point where they'll realize or management will tell them that the only way to bring back bigger audiences is by reuniting with MP. Not unlike what happened with Van Halen, who, after a failed attempt with Gary Cherone, eventually returned to David Lee Roth.
If that happens and the band approaches MP about it, I'd imagine that he'd be willing to rejoin, but he definitely would have some stipulations for his return and largely want to return to the role he played previously, which the rest of the guys would have to accept to a large degree. I doubt that JL would willingly leave DT since it's is his bread and butter, but one thing that would be addressed would be their relationship. Same thing to a lesser degree with JM. It seems unlikely, but then again, it seemed unlikely that Roger Waters would ever play with Pink Floyd again, that DLR would ever return to Van Halen and that David Ellefson would return to Megadeth, but all these happened. So it's not out of the question. But if it does happen, it won't be any time soon.
Well, it's not like MP is some famous front man like DLR. If their popularity sagged to that point I don't think bringing back MP would save them.
It would serve a temporary bump in attendance no doubt but it's not like they would go from playing theaters to stadiums.
If MP did come back though I seriously doubt James would quit. Like has been said, this is their income. I'm sure they live quite comfortably but they do rely on a steady stream of income. There is nothing James could probably do that would match the earnings of Dream Theater. Hell, I doubt there is much Mike could do to match the earnings of Dream Theater other than be in a billion bands and work twice as hard.
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- JLB leaving because of MP
Geoff Tate turns down the replacement offer, because of MP. This despite the fact that they share the love of spittle.
MP doesn't work out, so they go with Ratt's Bobby Blotzer. However, this starts a Blabbermouth war with Sebastian Bach and Nikki Sixx.
None of this actually happens because Rudess reads this thread and tells Petrucci "let's really make this Mangini thing work. I've read the butterfly effect of him leaving and it is bad. Like Vince Neil/Razzle bad."
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I'm actually surprised the one in the OP was released.
Well, what would they do though? If this interview was paraphrased by the interviewer, I could see them rejected the release. But, it's just a transcript of what MM said. They would have to entirely nix the whole thing, but that might not be as easy.
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Well, not sure if they have final say on any interview being released or not, but the fact that it's on DT related site has to mean that ultimately it was approved. And frankly, I'd be surprised at that. The interview is unbecoming.
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DT has no input as to what we publish. In fact, in the original proposal I wrote to DT about the fan club, this sentence was in it:
"And maybe most importantly: Editorial freedom. While it’s important that we work closely together, I also think it is important that the fan club is editorially free to publish any article, be it positive or negative. This is what gives the fan club the necessary integrity to be able to say “what we tell you is the truth”."
The site belongs to the fans. It is paid for by the fans.
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If Mangini starts pushing to play 6:00 on the next tour, then we know something's up...
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DT has no input as to what we publish. In fact, in the original proposal I wrote to DT about the fan club, this sentence was in it:
"And maybe most importantly: Editorial freedom. While it’s important that we work closely together, I also think it is important that the fan club is editorially free to publish any article, be it positive or negative. This is what gives the fan club the necessary integrity to be able to say “what we tell you is the truth”."
The site belongs to the fans. It is paid for by the fans.
Noxon, what is your read on Mangini during this interview?
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...and MP's not gonna approach them about rejoining the band.
Not directly, he'll do it via FB/Twitter.
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Well, it's not like MP is some famous front man like DLR. If their popularity sagged to that point I don't think bringing back MP would save them.
It would serve a temporary bump in attendance no doubt but it's not like they would go from playing theaters to stadiums.
Exactly. Keep in mind that MP was a huge part of DT's popularity due to his personality and his reaching out to the fans. So I'm sure that would play a part in drawing the crowds. And with his point of view being largely that of a fan, there probably would be things that he would do or insist the band do to boost interest.
Reports that the European shows are selling well for the I&W and Beyond tour tell me that playing the classic material is what will draw the crowds. As much as I like The Astonishing, the mixed reaction to the album by the fan base is the main reason sales were down this year, especially on this last U.S. leg, not because Mangini is there instead of Portnoy.
Not going to say that you're wrong, but while what you're saying might be true, how does that explain the overall fall in attendance? I recall reading/hearing about some shows that were played in Europe during the summer of 2014 that were not well attended. Noxon has a better pulse on these things than most of us, and I know he's commented in the past that this is the case. Part of it may be due to the same setlist being played throughout the whole tour (save for the festival gigs), but I don't know if that explains it completely.
...and MP's not gonna approach them about rejoining the band.
Not directly, he'll do it via FB/Twitter.
I'm sure you're half kidding, but no, not even that. After getting shutdown once a couple months after he left, he'd rather keep himself busy with his multitude of bands and projects rather than appear desperate to rejoin, which I don't believe he is anyway.
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When I said something 'new' I meant under a totally moniker than DT. New band. New name. New energy.
That wouldn't work, imo.
I do see MP coming back to DT, but *only* if DT gets to a point where they are more or less forced into doing it.
In other words, even if MM leaves on his own, there's no way the rest of the band is gonna go back to MP, and MP's not gonna approach them about rejoining the band. First, DT will try at least one more drummer. However, if they continue to play to progressively smaller audiences in the future, they'll eventually get to a point where they'll realize or management will tell them that the only way to bring back bigger audiences is by reuniting with MP. Not unlike what happened with Van Halen, who, after a failed attempt with Gary Cherone, eventually returned to David Lee Roth.
If that happens and the band approaches MP about it, I'd imagine that he'd be willing to rejoin, but he definitely would have some stipulations for his return and largely want to return to the role he played previously, which the rest of the guys would have to accept to a large degree. I doubt that JL would willingly leave DT since it's is his bread and butter, but one thing that would be addressed would be their relationship. Same thing to a lesser degree with JM. It seems unlikely, but then again, it seemed unlikely that Roger Waters would ever play with Pink Floyd again, that DLR would ever return to Van Halen and that David Ellefson would return to Megadeth, but all these happened. So it's not out of the question. But if it does happen, it won't be any time soon.
Well, it's not like MP is some famous front man like DLR. If their popularity sagged to that point I don't think bringing back MP would save them.
It would serve a temporary bump in attendance no doubt but it's not like they would go from playing theaters to stadiums.
If MP did come back though I seriously doubt James would quit. Like has been said, this is their income. I'm sure they live quite comfortably but they do rely on a steady stream of income. There is nothing James could probably do that would match the earnings of Dream Theater. Hell, I doubt there is much Mike could do to match the earnings of Dream Theater other than be in a billion bands and work twice as hard.
I think he would. If the chances of MP returning to DT are very small, the chances of having James and MP on the same band are even smaller. They weren't in good terms before the split, and then things just got worse. If the band ever accepted Portnoy back, their relationship wouldn't feel good at all, and James would feel pressured (by himself) to leave. That's, again, speculation based on that time when they started "attacking" each other in interviews :-X
...and MP's not gonna approach them about rejoining the band.
Not directly, he'll do it via FB/Twitter.
:rollin he'll do it... FOR THE FANS! :biggrin:
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Well, it's not like MP is some famous front man like DLR. If their popularity sagged to that point I don't think bringing back MP would save them.
It would serve a temporary bump in attendance no doubt but it's not like they would go from playing theaters to stadiums.
Exactly. Keep in mind that MP was a huge part of DT's popularity due to his personality and his reaching out to the fans. So I'm sure that would play a part in drawing the crowds. And with his point of view being largely that of a fan, there probably would be things that he would do or insist the band do to boost interest.
There is no way to prove that one way or the other, but I think you are drastically overestimating him. I think his presence brings enthusiasm to existing fans, yes, but does his mere presence bring in a lot more fans, as you suggested? I will say no, and his other projects post-DT kind of prove that.
Neal Morse plays to less people now, reportedly, than he did when he was in Spock's Beard, despite the presence of Mike Portnoy. Even Mike Portnoy himself expressed disappointment on social media that the new NMB album didn't sell as well as he hoped, despite his and their hardcore pimping of it (although it is still selling better than previous NM efforts). I can't remember the last time Portnoy reached out to fans this much over the release of a new album he is on, yet the sales still didn't live up to what he hoped for (largely because I think he had unrealistic expectations, partly because I think he, like you, overrates his ability to sell records based merely on his name).
Adrenaline Mob was a total flop.
Flying Colors is great, but I definitely get the sense that that project hasn't reached as many people as they had hoped, despite the presence of Mike Portnoy, as well as Steve Morse, who is easily the most well known member in the band.
Winery Dogs has done fairly well, and I think most of the credit there can go to the style: catchy hard rock that appeals to the masses.
Ultimately, songs are the reasons projects, albums, etc. do well, and when Portnoy is involved, his enthusiasm and fan-like attitude are added bonuses, not a main reason for them doing well.
Reports that the European shows are selling well for the I&W and Beyond tour tell me that playing the classic material is what will draw the crowds. As much as I like The Astonishing, the mixed reaction to the album by the fan base is the main reason sales were down this year, especially on this last U.S. leg, not because Mangini is there instead of Portnoy.
Not going to say that you're wrong, but while what you're saying might be true, how does that explain the overall fall in attendance? I recall reading/hearing about some shows that were played in Europe during the summer of 2014 that were not well attended. Noxon has a better pulse on these things than most of us, and I know he's commented in the past that this is the case. Part of it may be due to the same setlist being played throughout the whole tour (save for the festival gigs), but I don't know if that explains it completely.
rumborak has posted some things in the past that show that interest in the band peaked around '04 or '05, I think, so the band's popularity and interest in them was already on a slightly downward trajectory prior to September 2010, and I think that was just the natural course of time working its magic. It happens to just about every band that isn't named U2, the Rolling Stones or Metallica nowadays. Even Rush saw their live ticket sales start to decline in the mid 90s and then early 00s despite Roll the Bones and Counterparts both being very popular albums and then the return from the hiatus in 2002 (although Rush's ticket prices more than doubled in the 00s, so they still made a killing cause 12,000 x 100 is still more than 15,000 x 40, for example).
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Agreed on everything Kev has said.
Now if MM was to leave and MP to return, maybe somme fans would return, but they'd lose one. If BJ was to join, that would be another story though.
B.Lee
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I really hope to have Portnoy back in the band again, to me DT was way better with him.
If Guns N Roses and Helloween can work it out then anybody can.
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I really hope to have Portnoy back in the band again, to me DT was way better with him.
If Guns N Roses and Helloween can work it out then anybody can.
There is a huge difference though. GNR weren't even filling half of arenas towards the end of their run with only Axl as the original member. With the old guys, they're selling out football stadiums. They go from pulling in $100K a show to millions.
With DT, as I said, they would see a temporary bump in sales. How much I couldn't tell you. A couple thousand or maybe even 10 - 20 thousand? After the initial hype wore off, they would be right back to where they are now. Filling up and occasionally selling out theaters. For only a temporary raise, I don't know if they would risk the dynamic of the band.
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I agree, Portnoy returning would be huge news for the band and the fans, but a minor footnote when it comes to their album sales and worldwide reception.
DT has never been a "rockstar" kind of band or that experienced significative upswings (or downwswings) in popularity, I follow them since 1999 and when they play Milan they always play the same venue, a basket arena that hold up to 15K people. The only exception was in 2002, a slightly smaller arena, but in the last tours with Portnoy they played the very same venue they're playing now with Mangini, and where they will play next February for Images and Words.
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For only a temporary raise, I don't know if they would risk the dynamic of the band.
The MM interview seems to sugest that the current dynamic of the band might not be working all that good for him.
With Portnoy the band would be what it was for +25th years. It is difficult for an outsider to know how the personal relationships were inside the band, but I would tell that for the most part they were pretty good.
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For only a temporary raise, I don't know if they would risk the dynamic of the band.
The MM interview seems to sugest that the current dynamic of the band might not be working all that good for him.
With Portnoy the band would be what it was for +25th years. It is difficult for an outsider to know how the personal relationships were inside the band, but I would tell that for the most part they were pretty good.
But the relationships in DT (or rather MPs relationship with the other members) was one of the reasons he wanted a hiatus. He realized that while he was with Avenged Sevenfold. For me the chemistry on stage is much better with MM than with MP before the split, even during the TA tour, despite MM probably not being 100% happy with his situation.
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Yes. I too sensed MM was not very happy but I think his disappointment could be easily remedied. As for MP's issues with the band or their issues with him, that is a whole other ballgame.
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I don't think there's a threat of MM leaving anytime soon. He was just keeping it real and saying that being in a band and touring vigorously isn't the life that it's portrayed to be. I've complained about landscaping in the cold and suffering through aches and back pain and fatigue, but I've been doing it for many years and still do it. I would love to make a living playing music but I could see how the novelty of touring could diminish after time.
MM has one of the best gigs a drummer if his caliber could want with one of the best bands in existence, but I can see how the physicality and mental challenge night after night could get to him after a while.. Neil Peart said the same things about touring. I'm sure playing the drums at that level for three hours a night is like running a marathon. Like my signature suggests under all my posts. In fact, that quote is by NP from the song Marathon.
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For only a temporary raise, I don't know if they would risk the dynamic of the band.
The MM interview seems to sugest that the current dynamic of the band might not be working all that good for him.
With Portnoy the band would be what it was for +25th years. It is difficult for an outsider to know how the personal relationships were inside the band, but I would tell that for the most part they were pretty good.
We know that at least they were not good between MP and JLB. Hey, MP gave JLB an ultimatum during the 6 Degrees tour for not keeping healthy (quite ironic from a former drug addict) and even dissed him for not being the singer he wanted when in the band. So, I just can't see how it could work if MP was to return.
B.Lee
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For only a temporary raise, I don't know if they would risk the dynamic of the band.
The MM interview seems to sugest that the current dynamic of the band might not be working all that good for him.
With Portnoy the band would be what it was for +25th years. It is difficult for an outsider to know how the personal relationships were inside the band, but I would tell that for the most part they were pretty good.
We know that at least they were not good between MP and JLB. Hey, MP gave JLB an ultimatum during the 6 Degrees tour for not keeping healthy (quite ironic from a former drug addict) and even dissed him for not being the singer he wanted when in the band. So, I just can't see how it could work if MP was to return.
B.Lee
How anybody could not want JLB as their singer is beyond me! :huh:
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I think it was around 2005 or 2006 when Portnoy said in an interview that he wished DT had a singer like Daniel Gildenlow. Imagine the shit storm at the time if JLB had said in an interview that he wished DT had a different drummer.
Kind of funny to think now that JLB has been on more DT albums than Portnoy was and is now a longer tenured member of the band. :tup :tup
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About the good news in that interview (at least for me): I'm very excited about MMs upcoming solo album and extremely curious because I have NO idea at all how it will sound or what the style will be.
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I cannot pretend to be excited by a solo album any non-lead singing drummer would release.
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I cannot pretend to be excited by a solo album any non-lead singing drummer would release.
:tup
inb4 it's a compilation of drum solos
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I really hope to have Portnoy back in the band again, to me DT was way better with him.
If Guns N Roses and Helloween can work it out then anybody can.
There is a huge difference though. GNR weren't even filling half of arenas towards the end of their run with only Axl as the original member. With the old guys, they're selling out football stadiums. They go from pulling in $100K a show to millions.
With DT, as I said, they would see a temporary bump in sales. How much I couldn't tell you. A couple thousand or maybe even 10 - 20 thousand? After the initial hype wore off, they would be right back to where they are now. Filling up and occasionally selling out theaters. For only a temporary raise, I don't know if they would risk the dynamic of the band.
MP returning would be big news for a small subset of hardcore fans. For casual fans it's the JP and JLB show anyway. Not sure if sales would be affected much.
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I cannot pretend to be excited by a solo album any non-lead singing drummer would release.
Hey Kev, you should listen to John Macaluso's Union Radio. It's a great album albeit a drummer solo album with very good songs and singers. Don't stop at the drummer thing, particularly when the guy knows how to be surrounded (See what I did there? ;) ) by other great musicians.
B.Lee
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I don't think there's a threat of MM leaving anytime soon. He was just keeping it real and saying that being in a band and touring vigorously isn't the life that it's portrayed to be.
The rigors of touring is barely touched upon in that interview though. His creative influence (or lack thereof) and his resulting frustration is what people are mostly commenting on.
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I don't think there's a threat of MM leaving anytime soon. He was just keeping it real and saying that being in a band and touring vigorously isn't the life that it's portrayed to be.
The rigors of touring is barely touched upon in that interview though. His creative influence (or lack thereof) and his resulting frustration is what people are mostly commenting on.
Not contributing when he was a hired gun didn't bother him much I guess. Now that he is part of a band as the lasting drummer, I suppose it must be very frustrating.
B.Lee
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I really hope to have Portnoy back in the band again, to me DT was way better with him.
If Guns N Roses and Helloween can work it out then anybody can.
There is a huge difference though. GNR weren't even filling half of arenas towards the end of their run with only Axl as the original member. With the old guys, they're selling out football stadiums. They go from pulling in $100K a show to millions.
With DT, as I said, they would see a temporary bump in sales. How much I couldn't tell you. A couple thousand or maybe even 10 - 20 thousand? After the initial hype wore off, they would be right back to where they are now. Filling up and occasionally selling out theaters. For only a temporary raise, I don't know if they would risk the dynamic of the band.
This 100%. I looked up the American first week sales for the past 6 albums (I know, maybe not indicative of the full worldwide sales), and the drop following MP's departure is relatively minimal:
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theaters-new-album-projected-to-sell-30k-35k-first-week/
https://lambgoat.com/bits/10397/DREAM-THEATER-The-Astonishing-sales-charts-results
8V: 27,000
SC: 36,000
BC&SL: 40,000
ADTOE: 36,000
DT12: 34,000
TA: 30,000
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Not sure about world wide sales but the trend lines are not favorable in the US. I had no idea TA only sold 30K. I would have bet far higher.
Up, up, up
Down, down, down
On the positive side you can say there is not a huge difference. On the negative side you have to say they are on the way down.
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Not sure about world wide sales but the trend lines are not favorable in the US. I had no idea TA only sold 30K. I would have bet far higher.
Up, up, up
Down, down, down
On the positive side you can say there is not a huge difference. On the negative side you have to say they are on the way down.
Unless their next album is something more accessible to the casual DT fans, but also impressive to the hard core fans. ( not to take away from TA, it is a brilliant album!)
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I think it was around 2005 or 2006 when Portnoy said in an interview that he wished DT had a singer like Daniel Gildenlow. Imagine the shit storm at the time if JLB had said in an interview that he wished DT had a different drummer.
Exactly. Quite a double standard. I think he was free to be so open with it because JLB is sort of an easy target. Even before I listened to DT, a few of my friends that were fans talked shit about him (this was in the 90s). So I was surprised when I finally gave them a chance and loved his voice. It is very unique so I can see how some people might be polarized.
Even though he clearly doesn't like JM either, no one has ever accused Myung of being a crappy bassist so I doubt Mike would have ever said something about him despite leaving him out of all of his lists of favorite bassists even though JP and JR always made the list of guitarists and keyboardists.
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I really hope to have Portnoy back in the band again, to me DT was way better with him.
If Guns N Roses and Helloween can work it out then anybody can.
There is a huge difference though. GNR weren't even filling half of arenas towards the end of their run with only Axl as the original member. With the old guys, they're selling out football stadiums. They go from pulling in $100K a show to millions.
With DT, as I said, they would see a temporary bump in sales. How much I couldn't tell you. A couple thousand or maybe even 10 - 20 thousand? After the initial hype wore off, they would be right back to where they are now. Filling up and occasionally selling out theaters. For only a temporary raise, I don't know if they would risk the dynamic of the band.
This 100%. I looked up the American first week sales for the past 6 albums (I know, maybe not indicative of the full worldwide sales), and the drop following MP's departure is relatively minimal:
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theaters-new-album-projected-to-sell-30k-35k-first-week/
https://lambgoat.com/bits/10397/DREAM-THEATER-The-Astonishing-sales-charts-results
8V: 27,000
SC: 36,000
BC&SL: 40,000
ADTOE: 36,000
DT12: 34,000
TA: 30,000
Album sales are going down everywhere so the drop in sales isn't really indicative of anything other than how poor the industry is. ADTOE entered the charts at number 8. DT12 sold FEWER copies the first week but entered the charts one position higher. SC sold as many copies as ADTOE in its first week but SC came in at #19...soooo, 36,000 albums in 2011 or 2016 goes A LOT further than it did back in 2007.
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I think it was around 2005 or 2006 when Portnoy said in an interview that he wished DT had a singer like Daniel Gildenlow. Imagine the shit storm at the time if JLB had said in an interview that he wished DT had a different drummer.
Exactly. Quite a double standard. I think he was free to be so open with it because JLB is sort of an easy target. Even before I listened to DT, a few of my friends that were fans talked shit about him (this was in the 90s). So I was surprised when I finally gave them a chance and loved his voice. It is very unique so I can see how some people might be polarized.
Even though he clearly doesn't like JM either, no one has ever accused Myung of being a crappy bassist so I doubt Mike would have ever said something about him despite leaving him out of all of his lists of favorite bassists even though JP and JR always made the list of guitarists and keyboardists.
I was a fan of JLB before I became a fan of DT, I love his voice and ability to express every emotion with it, nevertheless I can understand that people are polarized. But a BAND MEMBER telling in an interview that he'd prefer a different singer is just mean and disloyal imo. Not only unfair to JLB but hurting the band as a whole because it leads to a bad mood in the band and to fans taking sides.
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I think it was around 2005 or 2006 when Portnoy said in an interview that he wished DT had a singer like Daniel Gildenlow. Imagine the shit storm at the time if JLB had said in an interview that he wished DT had a different drummer.
Exactly. Quite a double standard. I think he was free to be so open with it because JLB is sort of an easy target. Even before I listened to DT, a few of my friends that were fans talked shit about him (this was in the 90s). So I was surprised when I finally gave them a chance and loved his voice. It is very unique so I can see how some people might be polarized.
Even though he clearly doesn't like JM either, no one has ever accused Myung of being a crappy bassist so I doubt Mike would have ever said something about him despite leaving him out of all of his lists of favorite bassists even though JP and JR always made the list of guitarists and keyboardists.
I was a fan of JLB before I became a fan of DT, I love his voice and ability to express every emotion with it, nevertheless I can understand that people are polarized. But a BAND MEMBER telling in an interview that he'd prefer a different singer is just mean and disloyal imo. Not only unfair to JLB but hurting the band as a whole because it leads to a bad mood in the band and to fans taking sides.
I also heard a few times about either an interview or a post on his forum or something where MP said that he wouldn't have picked James as a vocalist if he ever was to form the band again. That feels like a stab in the back, if you ask me. After that, when James said on an interview that they would never allow Portnoy back in the band, lots of "fans" took it personal and started insulting James on most MP-related pages. Even Mike responded saying it was disrespectful and all that. Like Madman Shepherd said, quite a double standard there.
Also, don't know if anyone has though about the relationship between Mangini and Portnoy. We all know they were friends many years ago, but after MP left and MM joined, their relationship has, very understandably, shaken a bit. However, every time Mangini has been asked about Portnoy, he's always had something good to say about him. Never a negative thing. Never.
Instead, It really upset me that, on one of the few interviews that MP did about the new Neal Morse album, he was asked about his current role as a drummer and if he misses something from DT, etc. Well, he calls Mangini "their current drummer". Well, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but they actually know each other and were good friends, now, to MP, Mangini is just "their current drummer", you could at least mention his name, couldn't you?
I'll quote the part straight from the interview, which is MP doing his favorite thing, talking about himself and all things he can do/did with DT: (https://noisefull.com/interviews/mike-portnoy)
Interviewer: Even though I pretty much agree with everything you said, I would like to correct you in one thing... You were never just the drummer in Dream Theater, you were so much more...
MP: Well, thank you! I guess I shouldn’t have put it that, way because I agree. And it bothers me when I see people compare their current drummer to me. You really can’t make that comparison, because he right now is just playing drums for that band, while I was always the songwriter, co-writing the music, writing lyrics and melodies, overseeing the fan clubs, the websites and producing the albums and directing the videos... So, yeah, I guess when I’m kind to just reduced to just the drummer for those 25 years it is a bit of an insult. So, thank you for making that correction even though I just said it... (laughs)
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This 100%. I looked up the American first week sales for the past 6 albums (I know, maybe not indicative of the full worldwide sales), and the drop following MP's departure is relatively minimal:
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theaters-new-album-projected-to-sell-30k-35k-first-week/
https://lambgoat.com/bits/10397/DREAM-THEATER-The-Astonishing-sales-charts-results
8V: 27,000
SC: 36,000
BC&SL: 40,000
ADTOE: 36,000
DT12: 34,000
TA: 30,000
The drop-off is in line with the drop-off of the entire industry, so relatively speaking DT are holding fairly level with MM, which is good for a band that's been going for this long, but that drop-off across the music business has been consistent since before Octavarium (even sharper at that time actually), so DT were going against that trend while Portnoy was still in the band. I'm sure the switch to RR is responsible for much of that rise given the huge jump from Octavarium (would love to find some figures from the earlier albums to see what the real trend was there), but it's still very interesting data.
I believe MP played a very important part in DT's success; but more his work behind the scenes and in the producer's chair than behind the drumkit.
And I think some people are going way overboard with predicting MM's departure and trying to dictate terms of MP's potential return based on how they think the band feels here. It was one interview. We're not that starved for drama. :lol
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I don't know how Mike meant what he said but I definitely sensed some disappointment. His 10% comment isn't much to be concerned about, or he shouldn't be so concerned about that limited amount of contribution. How much do you really think JM contributes and he's one of the two original members. Normally, JP and JR contribute about 75% and the rest of the band fills in the remaining 25%. On TA it was probably 95% JP and JR and some ancillary contributions for the remaining members.
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I understand MM's frustration. 2/3 of his albums have been abnormal circumstances. With ADTOE he was brought in late in the process after everyone else had recorded. With TA, JP and JR wrote the album alone and then handed it to JM/MM to figure out their parts.
I don't know what the exact process was with DT12, but it was probably the only time MM was there for the writing process to contribute in any way, and since it was his first time being involved with that, he may have still been holding back to not rock the boat.
Having the freedom to play your own parts to the music is one thing, but being involved to influence the direction as the band is shaping the music is different. The next album will hopefully satisfy that creative urge for him more than the previous three.
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Exactly. Quite a double standard. I think he was free to be so open with it because JLB is sort of an easy target.
And because DT was MP's "baby" remember.
Also remember they got James back at a time they were heavily in to Queensryche, and that type of vocal style was more prominent. That type of singing isn't as big in metal as it used to be, at least more mainstream metal, and DT has outlived most of the bands of that period.
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And I think some people are going way overboard with predicting MM's departure and trying to dictate terms of MP's potential return based on how they think the band feels here. It was one interview.
You couldn't be more right.
We're not that starved for drama. :lol
You couldn't be more wrong. :D
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Also, don't know if anyone has though about the relationship between Mangini and Portnoy. We all know they were friends many years ago, but after MP left and MM joined, their relationship has, very understandably, shaken a bit. However, every time Mangini has been asked about Portnoy, he's always had something good to say about him. Never a negative thing. Never.
Instead, It really upset me that, on one of the few interviews that MP did about the new Neal Morse album, he was asked about his current role as a drummer and if he misses something from DT, etc. Well, he calls Mangini "their current drummer". Well, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but they actually know each other and were good friends, now, to MP, Mangini is just "their current drummer", you could at least mention his name, couldn't you?
Yeah, this hasn't been spoken much about but I noticed it, too. I also noticed that in the beginning, Mangini always emphasized that Portnoy was a friend. I saw him at a clinic and he said it then and he said it in many interviews. Lately, MM hasn't said such a thing. He has been nothing but respectful but it is odd that he no longer points out MP is a friend when he used to every chance he got.
Portnoy's last interview bothered me as well. Even though it is clear that MM is not contributing at the same level that MP was, we know MM did contribute more to DT12 than the other two and like Blob said, the other two were odd circumstances so I'm willing to give DT a pass on that.
It just sucks that MP said that being referred to as "just the drummer" is an insult and then goes and refers to their "current drummer" as "just playing drums for the band." That type of language really must hurt Mangini who has always been nothing but gracious and respectful to Portnoy.
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Portnoy being spiteful isn't some new development.
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I understand MM's frustration. 2/3 of his albums have been abnormal circumstances. With ADTOE he was brought in late in the process after everyone else had recorded. With TA, JP and JR wrote the album alone and then handed it to JM/MM to figure out their parts.
I don't know what the exact process was with DT12, but it was probably the only time MM was there for the writing process to contribute in any way, and since it was his first time being involved with that, he may have still been holding back to not rock the boat.
Having the freedom to play your own parts to the music is one thing, but being involved to influence the direction as the band is shaping the music is different. The next album will hopefully satisfy that creative urge for him more than the previous three.
I remember one interview with MM on the self-titled and what I could sense then is not frustration but more along the lines of "shit, these guys are good." As they throw ideas around, he has barely written anything on his tablet when one of the guys already comes up with a riff.
He is contributing to the songwriting indirectly, though. JR once said that having MM aboard helped them think of ideas in big numbers and in combinations they haven't thought of before.
For the next album cycle, MM already prepared riffs and drum patterns (that FB post about doing 4/4 beats with some habanero spice). Unfortunately, they did the album differently. I guess that is another source of frustration.
I think him doing a solo album is an indication that he will not leave. I think he even has a post saying he is composing some riffs for use not only in his solo album but also for the next DT album.
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For the next album cycle, MM already prepared riffs and drum patterns (that FB post about doing 4/4 beats with some habanero spice). Unfortunately, they did the album differently. I guess that is another source of frustration.
I think him doing a solo album is an indication that he will not leave. I think he even has a post saying he is composing some riffs for use not only in his solo album but also for the next DT album.
This is the stuff I want to hear more of from MM. I'd love to hear a song written around a fresh rhythm idea, something atypically prog metal, and have the band inspired by something different. A lot of my favourite moments in older DT are the things that if you analyze it, don't really fit the mold. My favourite moments on TA are those moments too, I just want more of them, instead of having these little sections go and soon as they appear.
The solo album may be MM's way of scratching some of that itch to contribute musical ideas, but hopefully it also helps him to integrate more into the future writing process with DT.
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I remember reading too that "current drummer" interview, I found it weird as well.
Even though I remember a Q&A, probably on MP's forum itself, where someone asked him if he was pissed at him for getting the gig and Portnoy replying "Of course not! He had a chance and it would have been foolish to not take it", or something to that extent.
Then again, he could have never replied "He should have told them that DT shouldn't have any drummer but me", but still he acknowledged how Magini just couldn't let the chance pass by.
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This is the stuff I want to hear more of from MM. I'd love to hear a song written around a fresh rhythm idea, something atypically prog metal, and have the band inspired by something different. A lot of my favourite moments in older DT are the things that if you analyze it, don't really fit the mold. My favourite moments on TA are those moments too, I just want more of them, instead of having these little sections go and soon as they appear.
The solo album may be MM's way of scratching some of that itch to contribute musical ideas, but hopefully it also helps him to integrate more into the future writing process with DT.
Here's the relevant quote from Mangini last April:
"I'll probably use my hotel time for the rest of the year to record anything from single riffs, to partial songs to full ones after I get a consistent song writing protocol. I want to get it right from the start so I can play drums to it no matter what I end up using it for. That may take the rest of this tour as I usually get sleep #1 and am busy with DT related things before shows."
So he did not specifically say that he would use some ideas for DT. My bad.
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I think all of the negative vibes from this interview come from the shitty interviewer. I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did.
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I think all of the negative vibes from this interview come from the shitty interviewer. I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did.
I had said right off, that MM appeared to have zero interest in doing this interview. Only watched it once, but didn't he make reference about a time limit at the beginning?
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I think all of the negative vibes from this interview come from the shitty interviewer. I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did.
And yeah, all the "negative" posts by MM on FB came after the intervieq so I blame the interviewer for making Mike think those nega thoughts. :lol
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:blush
Are you the interviewer?
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I think all of the negative vibes from this interview come from the shitty interviewer. I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did.
I had said right off, that MM appeared to have zero interest in doing this interview. Only watched it once, but didn't he make reference about a time limit at the beginning?
That's unusual for him. He's usually very gracious and excited to do interviews.
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:blush
Are you the interviewer?
No, I just inadvertently clicked that blush emoticon. Hahaha
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What part was shitty about the interviewer? He just asked questions, and very calmly I might add.
I'm getting a distinct "shoot the messenger" vibe.
Regarding the JM vs MM comparison, I think it's apples and oranges. First of all, I would posit that JM just has no interest at this point to participate in the writing outside of maybe a "guest credit" thing.
Also, it's the nature of songwriting that a bass player can be emulated very well by a guitar player and a keyboard player. Whereas, a drummer can't, and that's why drummers are usually tied into the songwriting process. I can totally understand MM being frustrated because he *wants* to contribute, and probably expected to be part of the songwriting since that's what most bands do.
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I haven't heaped on the interviewer. I've only stated that MM clearly didn't want to be there.
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All interviews are on a time limit, especially while on tour. This is enforced by the tour manager, so that the band members do not have to appear rude in wrapping up interviews and whatnot. And the bandmembers do choose for themselves who want to make themselves available for interviews. This is why you seldom see any JM interviews...
I think people are reading WAAAAAAY to much into this interview than what is actually there.
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All interviews are on a time limit, especially while on tour. This is enforced by the tour manager, so that the band members do not have to appear rude in wrapping up interviews and whatnot. And the bandmembers do choose for themselves who want to make themselves available for interviews. This is why you seldom see any JM interviews...
I think people are reading WAAAAAAY to much into this interview than what is actually there.
Yeah true that.
Funny story from when i interviewed Mike, we were talking about his contributions on DT12 and how i thought Enigma Machine and Illumination Theory were indicative of his involvement in the writing process, and then the manager came in to tell us that time was up, and Mike himself made a gesture for him to wait until we were finished. Very classy and it showed me that he was really interested in the conversation.
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I think people are reading WAAAAAAY to much into this interview than what is actually there.
Nothing new here. DTF has been doing this since its inception. :biggrin:
B.Lee
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I think people are reading WAAAAAAY to much into this interview than what is actually there.
Maybe so. I mean, the whole "MM is going to leave DT" may be a bit of a stretch.
But Noxon, you have to admit, that MM's demeanor was at least curious. He comes off as tired, frustrated, and edgy. VERY out of character as to how he usually is. Maybe he was ill. Maybe he just had an argument with someone close to him. Whatever it was, he was quite different to his normal effusive self.
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And not that I'm saying this can necessarily serve as a template by which to judge whether a member is about to leave or not, but MP's public displays of discontent were rather subtle too before he left. Usually these seasoned musicians are pretty savvy when it comes to not letting on that anything negative is happening; taking into account that MM is someone who wears his emotions more on the sleeve than most people do, I think it's still telling he didn't just become more guarded in his responses, but instead open up more. I get the impression this is something he *wanted* to air.
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In see this happen in life all the time. When it is personal, most people tend to not post a lot and are quiet. When something is bothering them most tend to blurt out, hint or express frustration. I think that's why we are talking about this. Until now, MM has been very positive.
Does this mean he's leaving? No. Does this mean there is an issue? Yes. Now it's up to the band to have in in the writing process more or not.
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I recommend that the next interviewer of MM forgo these types of questions?
Audition
Graduate to full member
MP
Drum dexterity
and instead ask questions like
What do you consider your songwriting strengths?
What do you consider your weaknesses?
Do you prefer collaboration or more control of the song's destiny?
How do your musical inclinations differ from DT? What differences can expand the DT style and which might inhibit it?
How do you think the back and forth with your students have shaped and detoured your own songwriting?
Would you rather put yourself out there and possibly fail miserably instead of being held back by your own inhibition or even the caution of others?
In other words, stop asking him questions like he's a performing monkey and start asking him questions on his creativity. He obviously is in that frame of mind right now. I'm sure that was partly why he was so emotional in getting the gig. He clearly felt this was his chance to be more than just support of somebody else's vision, but his chance to share his own.
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That explains why the drums on TA are so plain, but even ADTOE had more involved drums.
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The drums on TA are plain?
I would also like to add that an unfortunate circumstance might have changed the way TA was recorded. If you follow Mangini's posts, sometime in January last year, he was so excited to go in the studio for two weeks for the new DT album. Then he got snowed in and he never got to do the DT work before he went on tour with UK. Most likely, the four days only in the studio came about because that is the only gap remaining was in between his UK stint and the DT 30th anniversary tour.
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I'd say every instrument on TA is equally restrained, just by design of what that album is. TA is actually my favourite drum album from MM, perhaps for that reason. Less room for technicality, and a bit more about feel.
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TBH, I haven't really paid much attention to the drums on The Astonishing. I'd imagine they are just *there* for the most part.
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I'd say every instrument on TA is equally restrained, just by design of what that album is. TA is actually my favourite drum album from MM, perhaps for that reason. Less room for technicality, and a bit more about feel.
This x 1000. It's actually refreshing, for a change.
If one wants to listen to overpowering virtuosic drums throughout, there are other 12 DT albums to check out. :D
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I would also like to add that an unfortunate circumstance might have changed the way TA was recorded. If you follow Mangini's posts, sometime in January last year, he was so excited to go in the studio for two weeks for the new DT album. Then he got snowed in and he never got to do the DT work before he went on tour with UK. Most likely, the four days only in the studio came about because that is the only gap remaining was in between his UK stint and the DT 30th anniversary tour.
As the resident Bostonian here, have to disagree. Yes, there was a snow emergency during the time he was in Boston. But, after three days the highways were cleared, and he could have jumped on a plane and be in NY with no problems whatsoever. It took weeks until he mentioned he was finally going down. The snow definitely was not the reason.
Barring different evidence, I think we should just assume MM used the wording he used with good reason: "I was not included". That clearly indicates somebody made that decision, not the snow.
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I would also like to add that an unfortunate circumstance might have changed the way TA was recorded. If you follow Mangini's posts, sometime in January last year, he was so excited to go in the studio for two weeks for the new DT album. Then he got snowed in and he never got to do the DT work before he went on tour with UK. Most likely, the four days only in the studio came about because that is the only gap remaining was in between his UK stint and the DT 30th anniversary tour.
As the resident Bostonian here, have to disagree. Yes, there was a snow emergency during the time he was in Boston. But, after three days the highways were cleared, and he could have jumped on a plane and be in NY with no problems whatsoever. It took weeks until he mentioned he was finally going down. The snow definitely was not the reason.
Barring different evidence, I think we should just assume MM used the wording he used with good reason: "I was not included". That clearly indicates somebody made that decision, not the snow.
Indeed, it was clear from interview both from JP and JR that they wanted to write the album by themselves, just to fit the story. So obviously he wasn't included, and maybe from the experience from DT12 he expected even more involvement which didn't happen of course.
Still, we'll see what's going to happen next, i don't know how happy MM is with The Astonishing as an album, i haven't heard him give any opinions about it, and he was very excited for both ADTOE and DT12. Maybe the less technical approach on this one disappointed him a little bit, i don't know.
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I would also like to add that an unfortunate circumstance might have changed the way TA was recorded. If you follow Mangini's posts, sometime in January last year, he was so excited to go in the studio for two weeks for the new DT album. Then he got snowed in and he never got to do the DT work before he went on tour with UK. Most likely, the four days only in the studio came about because that is the only gap remaining was in between his UK stint and the DT 30th anniversary tour.
As the resident Bostonian here, have to disagree. Yes, there was a snow emergency during the time he was in Boston. But, after three days the highways were cleared, and he could have jumped on a plane and be in NY with no problems whatsoever. It took weeks until he mentioned he was finally going down. The snow definitely was not the reason.
Barring different evidence, I think we should just assume MM used the wording he used with good reason: "I was not included". That clearly indicates somebody made that decision, not the snow.
I clearly get where the guys are coming from. MP had so much control over what DT was that they probably want to avoid the same thing with MM (which, seeing the guy's personality, I'm sure would never happen). Yet, I may read too far into what MM said, but , IMO, he seems to be really frustrated that things lean that way. I hope that this won't make him go to try and find a situation that is better suited for him.
B.Lee
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Still, we'll see what's going to happen next, i don't know how happy MM is with The Astonishing as an album, i haven't heard him give any opinions about it, and he was very excited for both ADTOE and DT12. Maybe the less technical approach on this one disappointed him a little bit, i don't know.
I'd be disappointed in Mangini if he didn't enjoy this album musically because he didn't get to show off his technical prowess. You don't join a band to show off.
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My take on the Mangini situation is that he is contributing to his own drum parts as Mike Portnoy did, the general view is that Mike was not one of the main composers of the music, that this has always been JP/JR since JR was in the band.
The difference being of course that, after the departure of Kevin Moore, Portnoy became the second main lyricist in the band behind Petrucci. The impression I've got from interviews is that the lyric writer is also generally the guy who comes up with the vocal melodies so Portnoy contributed in that way as well as drum parts. I also get the impression that Portnoy was also heavily involved in the arrangement, he may not have written riffs and melodies but would be there in the middle directing when riffs were used, repeated, reprised in songs, when to add vocal harmonies etc. He also really decided what direction he wanted the band to go in terms of heaviness, proggyness, long songs, short songs etc.
Mangini is not the band leader and does not write lyrics (by choice or not I don't know) and has admitted he's not coming up with better riffs and melodies than JP and JR so at the moment his contribution is drums alone. The first album was written before he was on board and the last one is really a one-off project that JP went off to do with a little help from Rudess. It was not written as a band like all of their other albums so JLB, JM and MM all made no contribution beyond their own parts to this album. These were not JP's drum parts as, if you've seen this thing live, the drums are incredible, they are not simple at all, so complex and inventive. I implore any one to air drum along to The Astonishing and see just how much is in there.
If Mike Mangini did leave (voluntarily or otherwise) I don't buy into the 1% chance of Portnoy returning, I think he'd be back in a hearbeat. None of his other projects have been particularly successful, certainly not on DT's level and I'm sure he'd love to come back. I also think that the band would probably happily give him the reins back to run the band again. Jordan Rudess may feel a little bit sidelined again and I hope JM continues to contribute lyrics but I think they would accept that he knows what he's doing in terms of steering them in the right direction and promoting the band.
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This is the first time I see Mangini respond like this. I think if the issue was bigger for him, he would have made some jabs here and there in every interview. I understand his frustration, but I don't see Mangini leaving DT anytime soon.
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The whole "JR and JP Always wrote the songs anyhow" argument - even if it's been said in recent interviews - is not at all correct. Just look at the making of videos of the albums where that was available. I realize it's a story dt do want to relay as "truth" - to underplay the importance of mp (who wouldn't after 6 years of "bring mp back - dt has lost it soul" complaints on social media ).
I have heard voicemails from mp to hinself where he hums riffs. Easily recognizable riffs. So he deffo had a lot to say regarding song creation.
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The whole "JR and JP Always wrote the songs anyhow" argument - even if it's been said in recent interviews - is not at all correct. Just look at the making of videos of the albums where that was available. I realize it's a story dt do want to relay as "truth" - to underplay the importance of mp (who wouldn't after 6 years of "bring mp back - dt has lost it soul" complaints on social media ).
I have heard voicemails from mp to hinself where he hums riffs. Easily recognizable riffs. So he deffo had a lot to say regarding song creation.
I know I personally have never made that specific argument, but I have made the argument that JP and JR are (and have been since JR joined) the main creative force in the band in terms of actually writing songs. I don't try to downplay MP's contributions, I think most of the die hard fans know what they are for the most part, he always made sure we knew exactly what he was doing "for us". That being said, I think his contributions to certain aspects of DT are sometimes exaggerated for a couple different reasons, mainly because (1) he was and still is the most public and outspoken, and (2) he isn't in the band anymore and his departure created a lot of different narratives.
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We talked about it for 10 pages now.
Bottom line...If Mangini is cool only contributing drum parts then all is well. End of story.
If not, and it's weighing on him, he will be having a convo with JP and JR as I assume he is a guy that will stand up for himself.
Like I said earlier, he may ask to be more involved but told politely...'no.'
Or maybe the guys will say hell yeah, be here every day in the studio and bring everything you have.
Only time will tell.
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I find this pretty unexpected actually. A bit controversial. Things are gonna get personal
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To the ones who think that drum parts on TA are simple, I suggest to watch these videos, where the drummer Mathias Biehl covers almost the entire album:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA4_eWBYqB4&index=70&list=PLbtpEvmGSat8cp7D8RfMV5y_q_KeaMtGD
I guess the only song that he plays differently from what MM did is "The New Beginning", at the end of the song, where he improvises a lot.
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This is the first time I see Mangini respond like this. I think if the issue was bigger for him, he would have made some jabs here and there in every interview. I understand his frustration, but I don't see Mangini leaving DT anytime soon.
Exactly. Many here are latching on one negative interview and at most two social media posts at the tail-end of the just-finished The Astonishing tour, as if these are of more weight than all of his other public pronouncements on the subject. What about his numerous posts on always going out to play golf with Myung and his drum-tech? What about all his very enthusiastic posts on The Astonishing?
January 20: Also in just getting home, I have returned to The Astonishing Songs preparation. It is such a massive, versatile and vibe-varying body of work, that revisiting parts and trying to copy the improvised details is virtually not possible. It is really brutally hard work. I hope you all heard (JP & JR) and Moment of Betrayal on the Eddie Trunk radio show. It sounded really, really great to me in that environment; really alive and powerful. The radio brings out fantastic details. I still have to slow all the tunes down to really get them, no matter how slow or fast some are. 10 more days till you can sit with it on a kick ass sound system, or amazing set of headphones geared to your preferences for a couple of hours and read along. I can't wait to get my own copy very soon.
February 10: Just sharing some good vibes: The space in these new songs sounds and feels huge with a real, full band - shakes the room and is not easy to keep the feel from rushing for the sake of weakness for the moment. I thought it would be dynamic, but for it to be as powerful as I experienced is just tremendous. This show is going to take discipline, especially with a LOT of subtle notes between the lines and I know it is going to shake bones and walls. Nothing like a band in a room crushing a PA system. Even the quiet moments are haunting in person, but it is those quite moments that makes the bombastic, melodic outbursts hit even hards. Again, just sharing some excitement.
February 10: Technical Tidbit about the drum subtleties you'll see live- the double snares military part in The Astonishing is played as follows: My right-hand plays the 10" snare part of triplet twos and thress while the left plays the two rolls on the main snare. Those are a 13:2 and a 7 tuplet. Since both are odd, it is the upstroke of the one-handed roll in both cases that lands on "1" against the right-hand mini snare part. Really hard to do for me, but normal, even rolls do not work as well as odd ones even though most of the world won't even know what's going on. That's OK. We know :) As Tuplets go, the Gong drum rolls through out the album are all timed as huge tuplets. They aren't just rolls. Join me for the fun!
February 18: Our Dress rehearsal tonight is over. I don't want to post any kit pics etc or anything about this spectacle until after the first show. I also am interested in the reactions, more the feelings, of those there at the show and those there over time to really get a database of opinions to average out. I don't value YouTube reflections and thus comments because that medium has no bone-rattling feel while analog reality is just another animal. My phone clips don't come close to how it is in person. Odd thing how unrelated a cell phone view is to the real thing. Not even comparable.This show is another animal too because of the space in the music; the raw instrument sounds off of the stage; the impact of the really quiet parts vs. the huge entrances through a PA system that will shake the wooden chairs. I didn't realize while recording it how the opposing volumes, melodies and energy that make it what it is. DT does Space! I've already posted how hard it is to make the space not rush; to not succumb to the excuse of "feel" and have the intended timing and real intended feel suffer. I'll say that playing at home with a CD has nothing to do with what I felt today, but It is about the attendees starting tomorrow, not me. Have fun if you're joining us.
June 25: Drum Fun report: This White Masterworks kit of mine is sounding so great, clean and full in my ears each night. Hearing the dynamics and feeling the boom is very fun. The thicker crash cymbals are rich and full too; very satisfying to bash LOL ... All the effects and hats are really enjoyable to use when I can really hear the difference in metals/alloys in each. I hope you're all (audience) catching some of what I'm talking about and some enhancements of all kinds druing the show. I'm pumping up the ghost notes, changing some fills and beats and animating the cymbal hits since I have a lot more space between the notes on these songs. I'm not a stick spinner (due to hitting all the stuff 2 feet from my face,) but I've enjoyed throwing the gong drum mallet really high and trying to catch it. And finally, playing very slowly with swing (in the between notes) while not rushing the pulses is really, really keeping my interest becaue the smallest rushing of a note would ruin the feel and it is very delicate work. All is good in what Eric calls "Drumlandia."
September 28: Recording as I have been lately in my studio, while checking the hits placement and dynamics helps me prepare for touring. This pic is a first take on an idea. My noticing the exact placements of my kicks when I switch from lefty (top blue) to righty (top green) in the same bar helps me refine that skill. My hands are switching hihats with the melody. This is like with The Astonishing Music as it was composed with a lot of space and melody. Therefore, I appropriately played less notes. Less notes makes groove inconsistencies way, way more noticeable than more notes and time changes. Accordingly, the quieter between/ghost notes I play are so important to me as I actually execute the non "on the grid" main beats about 53% to 60% swing. Without that swing and the dynamics quieter dynamics on the hihats and ghost snare hits, the groove would be stiff. Point being, this kind of playing is tough just like a mad speed thing. If you come see us live, you'll be able to really notice me focussing on this and that I'm working back there on this kind of thing rather than the expected chops/speed/coordination thing. I'm enjoying talking about this instead of the normal drum craziness !
October 8: Hard work last night. The show is so dialed in and the drums are sounding so good from my perspective. The snare is so crispy and full of snap, just like I prefer it, while it also captures the ghost notes that are prevalent but subtle throughout this record. Kicks too, but more boom and less click. Just great and they shake my stool; couldn't be more perfect for me. There should be seats around the drum riser !! That'd be a hoot ! In Hershey, PA now.
November 11: Seems like the crowd reaaaally likes hearing our adjusted set/new encore of oldies the last couple of shows. They will stay in!
Why would Mangini be suddenly interpreted as feeling left out of DT and wanting to leave the band just because of one interview where the interviewer asks what his contribution to the band is as if he is an amateur interviewer who did not do his homework? I mean, really, why would you ask that question if you know the background to how The Astonishing album was created? What exactly is the answer that you would expect?
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I find this pretty unexpected actually. A bit controversial. Things are gonna get personal
I read this in a very deep voice.
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Why would Mangini be suddenly interpreted as feeling left out of DT and wanting to leave the band just because of one interview where the interviewer asks what his contribution to the band is as if he is an amateur interviewer who did not do his homework? I mean, really, why would you ask that question if you know the background to how The Astonishing album was created? What exactly is the answer that you would expect?
This is *very* quickly turning into "shoot the messenger".
Sorry, MM has been with DT for 6 years, and he has been giving interviews for his whole professional career. The interviewer did nothing but ask benign questions. No matter how MM actually feels on the inside, he could have ridden the "I'm placing myself where it makes sense" line like he has so many times before. The interview would have been over, and it quickly would have been forgotten as just "one of those road interviews".
so, it was entirely in MM's control, and choice, to direct the topic of the interview to where it went. MM chose to lay out his frustration, not the interviewer.
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It's ironic that this most mundane interviewer now has the most talked about DT interview in years.
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It's ironic that this most mundane interviewer now has the most talked about DT interview in years.
Well, to be fair, the interviewer was doing the Kevin Nealon Mr. Subliminal in there that is hard to notice in the video (it is subliminal), but shows up on the transcript. Here's an excerpt of his questions:
Do you miss teaching at Berklee? (Crippling regret)
So that was obviously affected your family life? Being on the road so much? (not worth it)
What differences you feel are there between your role in different bands like Extreme, Steve Vai, compared to what you’re doing in Dream Theater now? (Same old hired gun role)
I would definitely not call you a “replacement” drummer. (Portnoy's better)
Now that the transcript proves the interviewer was in fact at fault, we can place the blame where it belongs. Mommy and daddy are not fighting. I'm sure they will be along shortly to let us know everything is good in DT land and there is no need to talk about it any longer (I said no talking).
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This is *very* quickly turning into "shoot the messenger".
Sorry, MM has been with DT for 6 years, and he has been giving interviews for his whole professional career. The interviewer did nothing but ask benign questions. No matter how MM actually feels on the inside, he could have ridden the "I'm placing myself where it makes sense" line like he has so many times before. The interview would have been over, and it quickly would have been forgotten as just "one of those road interviews".
so, it was entirely in MM's control, and choice, to direct the topic of the interview to where it went. MM chose to lay out his frustration, not the interviewer.
I teach research methods and no, interviewees are not fully in control of how interviews would go. Which is why we teach doing one's homework before asking questions. I mean, if you know that ADTOE was written without Mangini, that TA was a JP-JR songwriting team project as reflected clearly in the credits, what exactly is the response that you would expect from Mangini if you ask him how much he thinks he has contributed to the band? Do you think that he would say "I contributed so much" given that 2 out of 3 albums did not have MM as part of the songwriting team? Is Mangini really frustrated with the lack of contribution or rather with the consistent questioning of how much he contributes to the band?
I have seen MM give responses before that are similar not in content but in tone, and this is when he gets flustered with questions and comments that seems to be taking a soundbite out of him. Like when somebody tried to make it appear that a simple stick flipping comment that he made is a swipe against Portnoy.
This is very quickly turning into shoot the messenger is not as quick as how this is turning to be Mangini is leaving Dream Theater with all kinds of scenarios being imagined.
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It's ironic that this most mundane interviewer now has the most talked about DT interview in years.
Well, to be fair, the interviewer was doing the Kevin Nealon Mr. Subliminal in there that is hard to notice in the video (it is subliminal), but shows up on the transcript. Here's an excerpt of his questions:
Do you miss teaching at Berklee? (Crippling regret)
So that was obviously affected your family life? Being on the road so much? (not worth it)
What differences you feel are there between your role in different bands like Extreme, Steve Vai, compared to what you’re doing in Dream Theater now? (Same old hired gun role)
I would definitely not call you a “replacement” drummer. (Portnoy's better)
Now that the transcript proves the interviewer was in fact at fault, we can place the blame where it belongs. Mommy and daddy are not fighting. I'm sure they will be along shortly to let us know everything is good in DT land and there is no need to talk about it any longer (I said no talking).
I think you are reading way to much into those questions.
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Also, don't know if anyone has though about the relationship between Mangini and Portnoy. We all know they were friends many years ago, but after MP left and MM joined, their relationship has, very understandably, shaken a bit. However, every time Mangini has been asked about Portnoy, he's always had something good to say about him. Never a negative thing. Never.
Instead, It really upset me that, on one of the few interviews that MP did about the new Neal Morse album, he was asked about his current role as a drummer and if he misses something from DT, etc. Well, he calls Mangini "their current drummer". Well, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but they actually know each other and were good friends, now, to MP, Mangini is just "their current drummer", you could at least mention his name, couldn't you?
Yeah, this hasn't been spoken much about but I noticed it, too. I also noticed that in the beginning, Mangini always emphasized that Portnoy was a friend. I saw him at a clinic and he said it then and he said it in many interviews. Lately, MM hasn't said such a thing. He has been nothing but respectful but it is odd that he no longer points out MP is a friend when he used to every chance he got.
Portnoy's last interview bothered me as well. Even though it is clear that MM is not contributing at the same level that MP was, we know MM did contribute more to DT12 than the other two and like Blob said, the other two were odd circumstances so I'm willing to give DT a pass on that.
It just sucks that MP said that being referred to as "just the drummer" is an insult and then goes and refers to their "current drummer" as "just playing drums for the band." That type of language really must hurt Mangini who has always been nothing but gracious and respectful to Portnoy.
In the past Portnoy has freely admitted that Mangini was better than him and a friend, so I don't think he was intentionally dissing MM but he is just way bitter toward DT in general.
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I think you are reading way to much into those questions.
(https://media.zenfs.com/en-US/video/video.snl.com/SNL_0686_08_Update_02_Mr_Subliminal.png)
You might be right (missed reference)
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Yes, people are going way too far into what they're reading in this interview. The solution to that is NOT to simply blame the interviewer for everything.
Mangini is a big boy and a pro for decades now. Whatever he says is on him and no one else.
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But seriously, if you know how the material was written in the past 3 albums, what exactly is the answer that you would expect from this question:
"Aside from playing drums, what do you think is your biggest contribution to the band?"
The interviewer specifically said "aside from playing drums" so what is Mangini supposed to say?
Instead of frustration, what I read more here in this interview that is consistent with some past interviews is that he feels that he is not at the songwriting level of the other members of this well-oiled machine that has an established songwriting routine. From a previous interview:
"Within our group, it’s mostly drumming stuff. The way that I communicate with notes is via one of Jordan’s apps on the iPad, or on the keyboard. Now, that’s his instrument, I don’t want to be in the room playing someone else’s instrument, right? I mean it’s his, but It’s the only way I can communicate, so when I was able to do that, it was few and far between because there were so many ideas that they just keeping coming up with, there wasn’t really a room sometimes for me to be the one sitting and saying “hold it, can all you guys just give me 20 minutes while I come up with a melodic or chordal riff, can you give me 20 minutes please?”, that never happens. It’s the other way around, I have to be quiet and give them 2 hours or 20 minutes of quiet, and I’m happy to do that, but the point is it’s not the other way around."
which if you juxtapose with this response in the interview we are discussing in this thread:
"Are we talking Mike Mangini solo album?
MM: Oh, absolutely! I’m learning, I’m doing this right now as a learning experience. How am I supposed to offer stuff to a band like Dream Theater, which I have, but it just… it’s not on their level, so you know, I’ll do my stuff that’s not the same as theirs and well, whatever. Whatever, whatever, whatever. Mainly I’m learning right now."
which you could then juxtapose with this Facebook post when he was still starting with the solo album idea:
"I'll probably use my hotel time for the rest of the year to record anything from single riffs, to partial songs to full ones after I get a consistent song writing protocol. I want to get it right from the start so I can play drums to it no matter what I end up using it for. That may take the rest of this tour as I usually get sleep #1 and am busy with DT related things before shows."
which you then juxtapose with this response in the interview:
"But I’m still like… I’m like 10%, you know? So it’s getting there over time."
Mangini's response is different from this light.
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It's possible the interviewer hasn't studied everything related to Mangini to the extent that you have.
The "what else do you contribute" is a fluffy question. His answer of "humor" was fine. Reading too much into that was our fault, not the interviewers.
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Fanclub interviews are usually done by fans. Just sayin'.
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Also, don't know if anyone has though about the relationship between Mangini and Portnoy. We all know they were friends many years ago, but after MP left and MM joined, their relationship has, very understandably, shaken a bit. However, every time Mangini has been asked about Portnoy, he's always had something good to say about him. Never a negative thing. Never.
Instead, It really upset me that, on one of the few interviews that MP did about the new Neal Morse album, he was asked about his current role as a drummer and if he misses something from DT, etc. Well, he calls Mangini "their current drummer". Well, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but they actually know each other and were good friends, now, to MP, Mangini is just "their current drummer", you could at least mention his name, couldn't you?
Yeah, this hasn't been spoken much about but I noticed it, too. I also noticed that in the beginning, Mangini always emphasized that Portnoy was a friend. I saw him at a clinic and he said it then and he said it in many interviews. Lately, MM hasn't said such a thing. He has been nothing but respectful but it is odd that he no longer points out MP is a friend when he used to every chance he got.
Portnoy's last interview bothered me as well. Even though it is clear that MM is not contributing at the same level that MP was, we know MM did contribute more to DT12 than the other two and like Blob said, the other two were odd circumstances so I'm willing to give DT a pass on that.
It just sucks that MP said that being referred to as "just the drummer" is an insult and then goes and refers to their "current drummer" as "just playing drums for the band." That type of language really must hurt Mangini who has always been nothing but gracious and respectful to Portnoy.
In the past Portnoy has freely admitted that Mangini was better than him and a friend, so I don't think he was intentionally dissing MM but he is just way bitter toward DT in general.
But that was waaaay before MM got his job :lol
Like you said, it's pretty obvious that Portnoy is bitter towards DT, but he deals with it in the worst possible way. His words sound like he's trying to diminish MM's role in the band by stating how much a bigger role he had in the band. It's not like he's out with a direct attack to MM, of course, but the way he expresses his "facts" is always implicitly trying to show how important he was, or thinks he was, for the band, and makes it sound like he was irreplaceable.
This is one of many reasons why I wish MP never returns to the band.
The whole "JR and JP Always wrote the songs anyhow" argument - even if it's been said in recent interviews - is not at all correct. Just look at the making of videos of the albums where that was available. I realize it's a story dt do want to relay as "truth" - to underplay the importance of mp (who wouldn't after 6 years of "bring mp back - dt has lost it soul" complaints on social media ).
I have heard voicemails from mp to hinself where he hums riffs. Easily recognizable riffs. So he deffo had a lot to say regarding song creation.
About the voivemails, I think that's great and didn't know that.
About the making of videos, what do you expect from a video that was all recorded by MP and edited by himself? Of course he's going to be featured as someone key to the band's writing/recording process if he is the one filtering everything that appears on those videos.
If you take some time to watch the SC making of, you'll notice the only times James makes an appareance are when he was recording something and got it wrong or when he was being told what to do, what to change, etc. That whole documentary makes James look like an incompetent singer/band member. Which we could say is not true at all. Why, then, the video makes him look that way? The guy who edited it isn't exactly known for his great relationship with James.
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This was a really interesting interview, mostly because it was by far the most honest that I've seen Mangini before.
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It's possible the interviewer hasn't studied everything related to Mangini to the extent that you have.
Or even more likely, the interviewer is taking into account that the readers haven't studied everything related to Mangini. The interview questions aren't really for the interviewer. They are for the reader/audience.
The only taboo at this stage is to keep asking about the joining of the band 5 to 6 years later. At some point the image of "the new guy" has to be dropped out of respect for "the new guy".
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It's ironic that this most mundane interviewer now has the most talked about DT interview in years.
Well, to be fair, the interviewer was doing the Kevin Nealon Mr. Subliminal
:lol
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It's ironic that this most mundane interviewer now has the most talked about DT interview in years.
Well, to be fair, the interviewer was doing the Kevin Nealon Mr. Subliminal
:lol
Somebody old enough to get it :xbones
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I kind of feel like Mangini used that interview the way we use the "Things that Piss Me Off" thread.
You post in there simply to blow off some steam. You just need to get it off your chest so you can move on. Odds are very low the boss, friend, relative or neighbor is going to ever see it on the DTF forum (and if they do, they don't know your screen name).
But now everybody is talking about it and Mike is counting down the days until it comes full circle back to the band seeing it "blow up", causing a meeting that creates more stress than the initial steam blown off.
JP/JR: So it sounds like you have some issues with the band, Mike?
MM: Just want a bit more input on the writing process.
JP/JR: It says you are only given 10%. Well, there are five of us, so your fair share is 20%. Yet I hear you are looking for 120%?
MM: Just want a bit more input on the writing process.
JP/JR: So you wanted 120% of 10% ... or the equivalent of 12% of writing input
MM: Just want a bit more input on the writing process.
JP/JR Oh no you don't. We know you know that we know you are good with numbers. So do you want 120%, 12% or are you thinking of quitting the band, which entitles you to 0%? And if you quit the band, then we probably have to get MP back. And he will want 120% of 120% and we don't trust his numbers like we trust your numbers, but I don't think that adds up.
MM: Just want a ... Myung? LaBrie? You know what I'm talking about, right?
JM: ....
LaBrie: I agree with Myung
MM: Let's just pretend this never happened.
JP/JR: Sounds great. Now please excuse us. We have a world music / funk themed album to write.
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:lol
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I was waiting for the "JM: ..."
I was not disappointed ;D
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I kind of feel like Mangini used that interview the way we use the "Things that Piss Me Off" thread.
You post in there simply to blow off some steam. You just need to get it off your chest so you can move on. Odds are very low the boss, friend, relative or neighbor is going to ever see it on the DTF forum (and if they do, they don't know your screen name).
But now everybody is talking about it and Mike is counting down the days until it comes full circle back to the band seeing it "blow up", causing a meeting that creates more stress than the initial steam blown off.
JP/JR: So it sounds like you have some issues with the band, Mike?
MM: Just want a bit more input on the writing process.
JP/JR: It says you are only given 10%. Well, there are five of us, so your fair share is 20%. Yet I hear you are looking for 120%?
MM: Just want a bit more input on the writing process.
JP/JR: So you wanted 120% of 10% ... or the equivalent of 12% of writing input
MM: Just want a bit more input on the writing process.
JP/JR Oh no you don't. We know you know that we know you are good with numbers. So do you want 120%, 12% or are you thinking of quitting the band, which entitles you to 0%? And if you quit the band, then we probably have to get MP back. And he will want 120% of 120% and we don't trust his numbers like we trust your numbers, but I don't think that adds up.
MM: Just want a ... Myung? LaBrie? You know what I'm talking about, right?
JM: ....
LaBrie: I agree with Myung
MM: Let's just pretend this never happened.
JP/JR: Sounds great. Now please excuse us. We have a world music / funk themed album to write.
I imagined JP and JR saying their lines in exact unison. :lol
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I was waiting for the "JM: ..."
I was not disappointed ;D
His silence can speak volumes :laugh: He's too smart to get caught up in the drama.
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I imagined JP and JR saying their lines in exact unison. :lol
Like a boy band.
" Hi ! We're Dream Theater and you're watching MTV ! Hey y'all !!!! "
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The whole "JR and JP Always wrote the songs anyhow" argument - even if it's been said in recent interviews - is not at all correct. Just look at the making of videos of the albums where that was available.
Do you mean the "making of videos" that were basically directed by Portnoy?
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The whole "JR and JP Always wrote the songs anyhow" argument - even if it's been said in recent interviews - is not at all correct. Just look at the making of videos of the albums where that was available.
Do you mean the "making of videos" that were basically directed by Portnoy?
:lol
Was thinking the same thing!
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The whole "JR and JP Always wrote the songs anyhow" argument - even if it's been said in recent interviews - is not at all correct. Just look at the making of videos of the albums where that was available.
Do you mean the "making of videos" that were basically directed by Portnoy?
:lol
Was thinking the same thing!
Recorded, produced, filtered and edited by Portnoy :lol
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Those documentaries also never really showed any of the writing process. It was all the recordings and editing stuff as they went along. The bulk of the songs are clearly written by the time MP starts filming.
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Wait. Now the making of videos were just Portnoy Propaganda. Is this where I find out the Illuminati were pulling the strings the entire time?
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Wait. Now the making of videos were just Portnoy Propaganda. Is this where I find out the Illuminati were pulling the strings the entire time?
Only since the new world order played upon our fears.
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Damn. It is all there for everybody to see.
Did the band expel the dark master or is that just what they want us to think?
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Dude... "Take me out to the ballgame" isn't the Cubs theme song... It's a universal baseball song...
He should know that.
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The impression of a band pulling TOGETHER to create is the thing I crave. It's the basis of all ensemble music. I think the more that impression is given, the more affecting it is.
DT have such enormous talent. They don't need to build it up, they need to break it down :P to show the beauty of great musicianship and creativity. In my opinion. Drums are so core in rock and metal. MP and JP came across as equal top billing in the past, and it was stunning.
START with Mangini and build from there, JP!
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What part was shitty about the interviewer? He just asked questions, and very calmly I might add.
I'm getting a distinct "shoot the messenger" vibe.
What part wasn't? You can hear clearly there was no enthusiasm and it was a boring delivery of a scripted set of questions. A good interview has some chemistry and somewhat of a stimulating conversation.
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This is an example of a good interview:
https://noisefull.com/interviews/mike-mangini-dream-theater
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Agreed, that was a fantastic interview.
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It is also an interview which is a good example of Mangini expressing his honest opinion on DT-related things. For example, he clearly has issues with production:
"From “A Dramatic Turn Of Events”, I learned a lot about almost sounding like there were two microphones in the room and that was it. That was not the case, but that’s my impression of my sound."
"On “Dream Theater”, I learned a lot about the feel with the time changes because my snare sound was completely different for me, I didn’t come up with it, and I evolved and changed because of that..."
"If I was engineering it, I would want at least a solid 4 or 5 days alone with it. I’d then want another two days after all the instruments are weaved in just to adjust to all those other frequencies. However, I basically have to get the drum sound set in a day or two. Once my sound it set, we don’t want to change it and I am not involved in the final production of it after the others still are taking time to craft their sounds. This is a big challenge for me because I am not hearing what the end result is when I record."
So it's not really a case of Mangini only being honest in the interview in this thread.
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What part was shitty about the interviewer? He just asked questions, and very calmly I might add.
I'm getting a distinct "shoot the messenger" vibe.
What part wasn't? You can hear clearly there was no enthusiasm and it was a boring delivery of a scripted set of questions. A good interview has some chemistry and somewhat of a stimulating conversation.
You do realize the interviewer's native language is not English, correct?
If I were interviewing someone in a foreign language, I would absolutely script my questions.
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It wasn't the language barrier, the dude was just lame
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I resent that type of comment. You realise this is a hobby interviewer? Not a professional journalist? Its people who do it for free. He's not native English, and he's most likely quite nervous since this is not his job.
Coming with these kinds of comments make my job much harder. I can't get people to help
Me if the response they get from the audience is that "they're lame"
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Agreed, that was a fantastic interview.
Thanks, i really enjoyed conducting it, and Mike was very informative and excited about it.
I resent that type of comment. You realise this is a hobby interviewer? Not a professional journalist? Its people who do it for free. He's not native English, and he's most likely quite nervous since this is not his job.
Coming with these kinds of comments make my job much harder. I can't get people to help
Me if the response they get from the audience is that "they're lame"
Yeah i can't fault the interviewer, he's not a professional as you said and i think he did a good job. Don't blame the interviewer for Mike's answers.
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Sorry if my opinion of the interviewer upsets you. You don't need to be a professional journalist to show some enthusiasm
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I don't get the people here bashing the interviewer tbh. As others have said, English isn't his first language and to be fair he does attempt humor to break the ice in places, it just doesn't go over that well with Mike. But that doesn't make him responsible for Mike's demeanour or answers.
My interpretation of this is that Mike was either having a bad day or was preoccupied with something, or maybe was just plain tired and wanted to get to his hotel room. Of course he may be dissatisfied with his role in the band but I can't see him quitting over it - not in the immediate future anyway. As he said, it's more or less the same role he's performed with his other bands to date so no doubt he's used to it.
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I don't get the people here bashing the interviewer tbh. As others have said, English isn't his first language and to be fair he does attempt humor to break the ice in places, it just doesn't go over that well with Mike. But that doesn't make him responsible for Mike's demeanour or answers.
My interpretation of this is that Mike was either having a bad day or was preoccupied with something, or maybe was just plain tired and wanted to get to his hotel room. Of course he may be dissatisfied with his role in the band but I can't see him quitting over it - not in the immediate future anyway. As he said, it's more or less the same role he's performed with his other bands to date so no doubt he's used to it.
All of this has been my stance since the beginning.
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You can blame the interviewer when they are combative. That wasn't the case here.
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You can blame the interviewer when they are combative. That wasn't the case here.
Exactly. Perhaps not the greatest interview but certainly not the worst.
I actually wish we had more amateur interviewers because then we wouldn't have these lame "professional" interviews where 95% of it is them just promoting the new album and the other 5% is them thanking the fans for their support.
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People again reading to much into things. He seemed exhausted and tired.
and I saw nothing out of the ordinary. Besides I hope the band does include him more or the others in the songwriting process including arrangement, overdubs, and possibly lyrics.
The Astonishing was a good project and I enjoyed it.
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To address a few of the comments and various points sprinkled through this thread:
One of the things MM may be expressing is that if his role were to expand, as he clearly has more to contribute, then we, as fans, would experience the full value of what he can bring to the table.
MM “tailored” the demo drum tracks of ADTOE in the recording process because some of what JP laid down on a machine was simply not natural to reproduce by a living person, the parts needed to be transcribed into something actually playable.
His shifting the emphasis of his body from left to right depending on key changes is an intriguing concept and I will listen for these stereo subtleties more closely.
Another area which may have been addressed is publishing credit – or in other words – who gets money if a song is licensed or royalties are earned. This is a sensitive subject for many artists, because beyond the pride of authorship, it also establishes who is entitled or precluded from future royalty payments.
I need to check the DT13 guitar tab book which definitively lists publishing credit for each song, but my recollection is that he has ZERO (0) publishing, which could be a sore spot. Even if MM contributed original parts, they may not have qualified as copyright protected composition, as most drum parts do not, and/or JP didn’t think they contributed enough to garner publishing (again, I need to verify the actual credit though).
Once upon a time, Portnoy had stated that there was some serious contention about giving JLB publishing credit for songs in which he did not actually contribute, and after 2002 the band decided only members who composed would be allotted a share in the publishing. (Conversely, for example, Red Hot Chili Peppers divide publishing equally, regardless of a member’s contribution, just to maintain a positive vibe and band stability).
Lastly, I will point out that MM called Dream Theater’s self-titled album DT13, a nomenclature that developed around this forum. Pretty cool little nod I think. EDIT and CORRECTION: I think he meant to say DT12, not DT 13!!
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While it is known that MM didn't contribute to the actual songwriting on The Astonishing, I'd find it very hard to believe that he didn't come up with most of his drum parts. I'm sure JP and JR had plenty of input and suggestions, and probably felt strongly about certain sections having a certain feel to them, but beyond that I would imagine he was given the freedom to come up with his own parts. Also, I've seen a lot of negativity towards the drumming on The Astonishing (and the album overall), and every time I listen to the album, I'm reminded of how FULL of Mangini-isms it is. You KNOW JP didn't sit down and plan out all those drum parts. No way. Whether or not MM is truly 100% happy in DT, who knows. If not, one would hope he'd communicate his feelings to the others.
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i think John needs to listen to Mullmuzzler 2, and hear that drumsound from Mangini, hear those melodies from James. It sounds much better, and james is singing well within his reach while still maintaining interesting melodies.
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i think John needs to listen to Mullmuzzler 2, and hear that drumsound from Mangini, hear those melodies from James. It sounds much better, and james is singing well within his reach while still maintaining interesting melodies.
Interestingly, Mangini has said that that is the drum sound that captures how he hears his drums in the studio, with Elements of Persuasion as the amped up version.
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To correct my previous comments, Mangini received writing credit on all but two songs on DT12 (False Awakening Suite and Along For the Ride).
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The music for FAS and AFTR were specifically credited to JR/JP. All the others were to DT (except Enigma Machine, which excluded to JLB).
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I don't think it's too hard to imagine how both things can be true at the same time.
For DT12 they will have had everybody in the room to work on stuff, but JP and JR will have brought in virtually complete song ideas that they then worked on. That caused them to be all included in the writing credits, but still an unsatisfactory situation for MM since the feel and meters etc had all been settled on beforehand.
For ADTOE and TA he will have gotten preprogrammed ToonTracks that constrained the situation even more. Then, he had the five days to lay down the 18 tracks.
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Latest post by Mangini:
"I have an IMAGE of starting the tour in Roma... it is of a BEYOND believable plate of Spaghetti Vongole. Preparing for this tour is already making me very, very hungry."
:lol
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Surely he should have said he has an IMAGE of starting the tour and it is beyond WORDS.
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Btw, different sub topic: MM is always adamant about not wanting to touch MP's fills, what's everybody's view on that? I frankly wouldn't mind him replacing stuff here and there occasionally.
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Btw, different sub topic: MM is always adamant about not wanting to touch MP's fills, what's everybody's view on that? I frankly wouldn't mind him replacing stuff here and there occasionally.
He definitely changes up MP's fills in certain spots. What he typically does (and says when asked) is not change what he considers really important or recognizable fills in songs. He definitely changes other fills though. Not sure how exactly he determines which ones are okay to change and which ones aren't, but to answer your original question, yes, I wouldn't mind at all if he did more of that on MP-era songs.
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Well, it's not entirely accurate:
"I honor the parts I feel that people want to hear and I amp up other things like slightly more 'metal' kick drum spurts and Bonham esc. swing to some grooves. Other than that, I will continue to lose my mind my way in fill sections like As I Am, but I won't change the main 'big' drum fill in Pull Me Under. I'll keep most main beats. The band guys need the music to sound a certain way, but prefer me to do my thing that got me the job in many places."
He has been changing things up since the second leg of the Along for the Ride tour and more noticeably in the 30th anniversary tour based on their Wacken show. That said, when they did The Astonishing shows with the encore, he immerdiately got this comment on FB:
"don't change the fills too much... not like I have any authority on this subject. lol but portnoys drum licks should be honored."
:rollin
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That quote sounds like "Don't change the fills, you messed up my air drumming.."
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I've always been a big fan of "play it like it is".
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I don't know. If you listen to MP live recordings, he took tons of liberties with his own stuff. MM, I feel, should at the very least have the same leeway in doing so.
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I don't know. If you listen to MP live recordings, he took tons of liberties with his own stuff. MM, I feel, should at the very least have the same leeway in doing so.
But when MP improvises or changes up his own parts, it still sounds like him (because it is him), and is still similar in style. Also for me it's more acceptable to change up your own part.
Any examples I can think of MM majorly changing up a drum part, it doesn't capture the spirit of the original part imo, and often bothers me. Plus certain parts should be respected.
I don't mind some changing up live, but in MM's case I'd rather he play them as close to the studio versions as possible.
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I don't know. If you listen to MP live recordings, he took tons of liberties with his own stuff. MM, I feel, should at the very least have the same leeway in doing so.
Indeed. Portnoy has said multiple times that he isn't quite concerned on playing the same exact parts as they are on the album.
Mangini does change some stuff. For example, I love what he did on the LALP version of TROAE, those fills at the end with the nice melody by Jordan. However, he can't change too much parts or people will start complaining. Take the ending of Finally Free, for example. MP did a super cool, long solo at the end. When they played it live on the previous tour, it was pretty obvious that the band didn't want to play it that way, and that's why they changed it and went to a different arrangement for that section. Well... some people complained about MM not playing the drum solo, even said he isn't able to play it (which is ridiculous). I think that's why he always tries to be more respectful of the parts.
Edit: What he did on TSF was INSANE. He played the song much better than MP on the studio version, imo.
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What he did on TSF was INSANE. He played the song much better than MP on the studio version, imo.
TSF on BtFW is the best example I can think of, of MM changing up sections or fills in a song. Made the song totally more enjoyable for me.
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What he did on TSF was INSANE.
Indeed. That version rocks my face, and MM is a HUGE reason.
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What he did on TSF was INSANE.
Indeed. That version rocks my face, and MM is a HUGE reason.
To me, that's the best MM version of an MP song. Looks like Mangini really enjoys to play the heavier DT tunes.
Also, this was just uploaded a couple weeks ago. It's an interview with MM from the summer festivals they were playing in 2011, before ADTOE was released. He talks about his approach to writing songs and how he incorporates his style on DT's music. Really cool interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwqboZVBg6U
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Btw, different sub topic: MM is always adamant about not wanting to touch MP's fills, what's everybody's view on that? I frankly wouldn't mind him replacing stuff here and there occasionally.
He definitely changes up MP's fills in certain spots. What he typically does (and says when asked) is not change what he considers really important or recognizable fills in songs. He definitely changes other fills though. Not sure how exactly he determines which ones are okay to change and which ones aren't, but to answer your original question, yes, I wouldn't mind at all if he did more of that on MP-era songs.
I like MM's take on things. Keep the important parts or the ones that people "air drum" to and switch up some others. Best of both worlds.
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Yeah, MM does change up parts...just leaves the very recognizable ones alone. I'd say MP changed his own parts way more than MM though and I don't hear people complaining about that.
Honestly I'm glad when he switches things around just because it's something different. That goes for the whole band. If I want to hear a band play a song like the studio version, then I listen to the studio version. I have no interest in going to a concert to hear a band play everything exactly the same.
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Yeah, MM does change up parts...just leaves the very recognizable ones alone. I'd say MP changed his own parts way more than MM though and I don't hear people complaining about that.
I agree. MP changed up his own parts way more than what MM has done to those same parts so far.
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Yeah, MM does change up parts...just leaves the very recognizable ones alone. I'd say MP changed his own parts way more than MM though and I don't hear people complaining about that.
I agree. MP changed up his own parts way more than what MM has done to those same parts so far.
But is it way more than how MM has changed up his own parts?
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MM just posted a video showing his preparation for a fill he's changing on Metropolis. I really love how this guy sees the music and interprets it in his own, unique way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_untx5IPPeA&feature=youtu.be
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Pretty cool, from the little bit I checked out. Can't really digest it right now at work because I am kind of in the middle of something, and because I have to turn it up way loud to hear him speaking, which makes his drumming REALLY loud. Will check it out later at home.
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Pretty cool, from the little bit I checked out. Can't really digest it right now at work because I am kind of in the middle of something, and because I have to turn it up way loud to hear him speaking, which makes his drumming REALLY loud. Will check it out later at home.
Yes. I know he's very busy right now and this would take him more time and work, but he should start using his mic setup for the kit, as well as a vocal mic for these videos. Anyway, I'm really glad he's uploading some stuff. Many fans, including myself, have been asking him to record more videos playing DT songs. Playtrhoughs would be amazing.
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MM just posted a video showing his preparation for a fill he's changing on Metropolis. I really love how this guy sees the music and interprets it in his own, unique way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_untx5IPPeA&feature=youtu.be
Jaw drops at the speed. Especially when he used the Wicked Pistons at 2:20. The visual seems to show simple and slow arm movements but its actually an illusion caused by the very very fast drum hits. :hefdaddy
Doesn't look like somebody who's quitting Dream Theater to me.
His last FB posts are also very encouraging:
"I'm focused on the 2017 tour. Let me just say that playing I, W & More is going to be fun. Really fun. focused |ˈfəʊkəst | (also focussed)"
"Between some fun drum practices and fun song learning, Christmas is so much fun ! Can't wait for snow on the trees, kids tearing open gifts, dressing up for church, food, food, food, everyone in their pajamas for days. Happy Hanukkah too ! I'm happy to come over for more food and gaming !"
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MM just posted a video showing his preparation for a fill he's changing on Metropolis. I really love how this guy sees the music and interprets it in his own, unique way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_untx5IPPeA&feature=youtu.be
Jaw drops at the speed. Especially when he used the Wicked Pistons at 2:20. The visual seems to show simple and slow arm movements but its actually an illusion caused by the very very fast drum hits. :hefdaddy
Doesn't look like somebody who's quitting Dream Theater to me.
The guy is just astonishing :lol :biggrin:
I agree, he looks very happy to add his own flavor to the songs. Like said earlier on the thread, that interview was probably just him on a bad day and then everything went to normal after a couple days. I still wish they include much more of his writing and rhytmic ideas on the next studio albums. They have one of the world's best drummers at their disposal, they should use his contributions on a bigger way.
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I went to a Mangini drum clinic shortly after the 1st leg of the ADTOE tour wrapped up and he was prepping for the second. I don't play drums so most of the stuff went right over my head but he was just so awesome to listen to speak and to watch play. I would go again in a heartbeat.
This video reminded me a lot of his clinic.
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Glad he touched the 'that's why it looks like I'm not using any force at all in the DVDs' subject matter. I hope it shuts up some of the 'LOOK AT HIM HE DOESN'T PLAY WITH EMOTION OR FEELING PLS MP RETURN' folks that roam the internet.
He is incredible.
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Random non-drummer question: he always talks about tightening his back and arm muscles to achieve certain things (like the double hit instead of a bouncer).
What's the usual consensus on that practice? I've never heard any drummer talk about doing that; is it because they can't, or don't feel it's necessary, or maybe even because it makes you prone to injury?
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Random non-drummer question: he always talks about tightening his back and arm muscles to achieve certain things (like the double hit instead of a bouncer).
What's the usual consensus on that practice? I've never heard any drummer talk about doing that; is it because they can't, or don't feel it's necessary, or maybe even because it makes you prone to injury?
Non-drummer here but i love the drums and love learning about them (hopefully getting mine one day). Some (many) drummers use their fingers, especially on faster speeds. Sometimes this (and improper technique in general) leads to tendonitis and other injuries. Mike doesn't use his fingers to achieve high speeds, he uses a different technique using his whole body to achieve power and speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gxut0odyc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gxut0odyc)
Here you can see how relaxed his fingers are, when the slow-motion camera captures his hits.
So this is why he points out his method, because many people believe that he achieves his speed using his fingers, while this is not the case.
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Random non-drummer question: he always talks about tightening his back and arm muscles to achieve certain things (like the double hit instead of a bouncer).
What's the usual consensus on that practice? I've never heard any drummer talk about doing that; is it because they can't, or don't feel it's necessary, or maybe even because it makes you prone to injury?
It's not a usual technique because you need lots of practice to be able to control a "twitch" that allows you to play fast. However, Mangini has been saying that the technique is less prone to injury because you prioritize the use of the bigger muscles, that is, arm before wrist, wrist before fingers.
I think the technique is legit. Here's extreme metal drummer, Darren Cesca, who was Mangini's student.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s71ZzGdiWs8
Now that's somebody who can do a Mangini: open hand technique, ambidextrous playing, drum speed using the big muscles. I don't think Mangini can do Darren's foot speed after he gott a knee injury, but he is still pretty fast.
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MM just posted a video showing his preparation for a fill he's changing on Metropolis. I really love how this guy sees the music and interprets it in his own, unique way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_untx5IPPeA&feature=youtu.be
It's one of those things that makes him so phenomenal. Thanks for sharing the link.
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Just in case you haven't watched it, one of the best Mike Mangni interviews.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Afu57XX0iDc
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MM just posted a video showing his preparation for a fill he's changing on Metropolis. I really love how this guy sees the music and interprets it in his own, unique way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_untx5IPPeA&feature=youtu.be
It's one of those things that makes him so phenomenal. Thanks for sharing the link.
Indeed! It's really sad some people still don't appreciate his inmense talent and approach to the drums, and accuse him of being "a robotic drummer with no soul".
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Random non-drummer question: he always talks about tightening his back and arm muscles to achieve certain things (like the double hit instead of a bouncer).
What's the usual consensus on that practice? I've never heard any drummer talk about doing that; is it because they can't, or don't feel it's necessary, or maybe even because it makes you prone to injury?
Followup to this: Does this technique allow him to replicate the triggered drum parts on I&W that Portnoy had trouble with?
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:rollin
Takes 0:01 to play the part.
Takes 6:00 to explain what he's doing.
Only Mangini could take 6 minutes to explain one second.
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MM just posted a video showing his preparation for a fill he's changing on Metropolis. I really love how this guy sees the music and interprets it in his own, unique way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_untx5IPPeA&feature=youtu.be
It's one of those things that makes him so phenomenal. Thanks for sharing the link.
Indeed! It's really sad some people still don't appreciate his inmense talent and approach to the drums, and accuse him of being "a robotic drummer with no soul".
For what it's worth, I don't think he's robotic at all. He's just exceedingly proficient and precise. He analyzes the music he plays. As far as I'm concerned that's not a bad thing. People who don't understand the instruments they play just don't appeal to me. That doesn't mean it's all about complexity; that's not what I'm saying at all. There just needs to be something there that stands out, that grabs me.
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:rollin
Takes 0:01 to play the part.
Takes 6:00 to explain what he's doing.
Only Mangini could take 6 minutes to explain one second.
Nah, that's just normal for teachers.
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:rollin
Takes 0:01 to play the part.
Takes 6:00 to explain what he's doing.
Only Mangini could take 6 minutes to explain one second.
Nah, that's just normal for teachers.
Pretty much.
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. Here's extreme metal drummer, Darren Cesca, who was Mangini's student.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s71ZzGdiWs8
THAT IS RIDICULOUS!
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. Here's extreme metal drummer, Darren Cesca, who was Mangini's student.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s71ZzGdiWs8
THAT IS RIDICULOUS!
Darren had this story abouy his style not being respected in Berklee. Then he came under the tutelage of Mangini, who was not familiar with extreme and black metal but was open minded enough to learn where Darren is coming from. Darren learned a lot from Mangini, especially about understanding how his body works and the science behind speed drumming.
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That's interesting. Not sure how it could not be respected. It is excellent drumming.
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In the link to a Mangini interview by drum talk that I posted, Mangini hints about how metal sort of does not get respected in music schools. He calls it a prejudice, which even he experienced when he applied to teach in Berklee.
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In the link to a Mangini interview by drum talk that I posted, Mangini hintes about how metal sort of does not get respected in music schools. He calls it a prejudice, which even he experienced when he applied to teach in Berklee.
I remember an interview with Jordan where he said something about how when he was in music school, everyone said musicians playing rock were all less talented than the ones playing classical or something to that effect.
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That's interesting. Not sure how it could not be respected. It is excellent drumming.
This I don't get either. The guy's a monster drummer! Btw, Thanks Erwin for making me discover a drummer I wouldn't have known about otherwise (no confusion : I know TAc is not erwinrafael).
B.Lee
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That's interesting. Not sure how it could not be respected. It is excellent drumming.
This I don't get either. The guy's a monster drummer!
I think to some degree, Berklee isn't so much concerned about the mechanics of playing, but the artistic expression. From anything I've heard, they don't teach the ability to play the instrument at all, that is expected to be present the day you show up. I think Berklee focuses on making you a versatile musician, so I'm not surprised they're not interested in this (intentionally) mechanical approach to drumming.
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On my music degree - and I knew this would happen before I even turned up - Jazz was shoved on you day after day and you'd get to play a rock song maybe twice a year.
I hated Jazz even more after I left.
And most of the "rock" tracks were some awful jazz-fusion road accident like " Led Boots " by Jeff Beck which is one of the worst things i've ever heard.
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That's interesting. Not sure how it could not be respected. It is excellent drumming.
This I don't get either. The guy's a monster drummer!
I think to some degree, Berklee isn't so much concerned about the mechanics of playing, but the artistic expression. From anything I've heard, they don't teach the ability to play the instrument at all, that is expected to be present the day you show up. I think Berklee focuses on making you a versatile musician, so I'm not surprised they're not interested in this (intentionally) mechanical approach to drumming.
Yes, that makes sense. Thanks Rumby for the explanation as I'm not versed into the mechanics of a music school.
B.Lee
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It's interesting that JM & JP were two of the only rock oriented musicians going to Berklee and they just happened to meet MP, probably the only other rock musician.
I'm sure there were a few others but it is a pretty amazing coincidence.
I guess Sherinian went there a few years before they did.
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Yes he said "not included" referring to the writing on this album, but he did not say he was unhappy about it. It's just a statement of fact. Don't jump to conclusions.
The only impression I got from this interview was that they went all in and took their two-writer conceptual writing and also their backing track / visual-heavy show to the fullest extent this go around, and if I had to guess and make a prediction, the next thing they do will probably go in another direction.
This is how DT has always worked. They constantly explore different avenues within their sound and production and let them run their course until it's time for something new.
To be fair, a lot of that exploration always came from the ever-impulsive MP. His character is very different from that of JP, who seems to be the guy calling the musical direction of DT. JR is involved in the writing process, sure, but JP is the clear leader. So I'd actually call DT a one-man project at this point.
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That's interesting. Not sure how it could not be respected. It is excellent drumming.
This I don't get either. The guy's a monster drummer!
I think to some degree, Berklee isn't so much concerned about the mechanics of playing, but the artistic expression. From anything I've heard, they don't teach the ability to play the instrument at all, that is expected to be present the day you show up. I think Berklee focuses on making you a versatile musician, so I'm not surprised they're not interested in this (intentionally) mechanical approach to drumming.
Do I hear some of the "prejudice" (Mangini's words, not mine) against this type of drumming for not being "musical enough"?
Really, if teaching techniques to allow you to express yourself fully in an instrument of your choice for the style that you want (including techniques to achieve maximum drum speed for a drummer who finds his expression in technical and extreme metal) is not an objective of a college of music, then there is something wrong with that college.
Then again, Berklee does teach technique, as their description for the "Private Instruction" course says:
"Private lesson instruction provides students with individual guidance in developing technique, repertoire, and musical direction. The content of the private lesson material is established by each instrumental department and supplemental material may be used by individual instructors."
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MM just posted a video showing his preparation for a fill he's changing on Metropolis. I really love how this guy sees the music and interprets it in his own, unique way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_untx5IPPeA&feature=youtu.be
Can anyone tell me which second of the song this is? Narrowing it down to a "guitar glissando" doesn't really help with any of Petrucci's tracks. :D
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MM just posted a video showing his preparation for a fill he's changing on Metropolis. I really love how this guy sees the music and interprets it in his own, unique way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_untx5IPPeA&feature=youtu.be
Can anyone tell me which second of the song this is? Narrowing it down to a "guitar glissando" doesn't really help with any of Petrucci's tracks. :D
:lol well, the Metropolis part (the fill he's working on) is the one that starts at 1:39 on the song. MM is following that fast Petrucci run.
Now, when he talks about a section of Learning to Live, I have no idea of which part it is.
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I don't understand. He's played this song many times. Why is he working on how to do it?
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I don't understand. He's played this song many times. Why is he working on how to do it?
He's re-writing the fills. (Those specific ones at least)
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He didn't think he'd over-over-over-over-over-analyzed the song enough and thought of every conceivable permutation of how he can play every 0.01 song to best show off his technical prowess.
" this particular 0.01 of the song is in 4/4 so naturally i'm going to play one single snare hit in 9/16. How do you play a single 9/16 crotchet ? well let me explain only 1,024 ways of doing that.."
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So the thread started with an interview that led people to question if Mangini still has his heart for this thing and now we have Mangini passionately taking his time to share to the fans how he is pouring his heart out on one second of a song he played so many times before and he is still getting shit for it (not necessarily in this site but in the internetz).
He just can't win.
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I wasn't trying to be an asshole when I asked that question, I was genuinely confused. But, after going back and rewatching the video, it makes sense. It was a half-assed attempt at paying attention to it the first time.
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So the thread started with an interview that led people to question if Mangini still has his heart for this thing and now we have Mangini passionately taking his time to share to the fans how he is pouring his heart out on one second of a song he played so many times before and he is still getting shit for it (not necessarily in this site but in the internetz).
He just can't win.
:lol You're right. There's always going to be someone criticizing one thing or another.
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I don't agree with people who are using his devotion to that 1s of Metropolis as a sign that his sentiments in the video were "off" or not meant that way. I think it only corroborates it; he wants to be creative, but doesn't have a lot of outlets in DT to do so. So, he tries to be creative in the places where he can, for example by perfecting small sections in Metropolis.
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Really, Rumbo?
"There are melodies and unison through throughout Images and Words, for example, and I'm going to use this drum set and my chops to really bring those out because it's more of what I do but it's without changing the essence of what is there, so what most people are used to, because I'm concerned about that as well."
He's been doing this using his drumming skills to bring out the melodies played by the other instruments for a long long time. It's his STYLE. He did it with Mike Keneally. He did it with Steve Vai. Don't read it like he's only doing this because he can not do it in other areas of Dream Theater.
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By the way, Mangini shows Lzzy Hale his drum kit and the first thing he shows is that it has an ambidextrous setup. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z4T3HUBtyY
Also, looks like we will have a Mike Mangini rhythm art book.
https://mikemanginiart.com/
:biggrin:
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Really, Rumbo?
"There are melodies and unison through throughout Images and Words, for example, and I'm going to use this drum set and my chops to really bring those out because it's more of what I do but it's without changing the essence of what is there, so what most people are used to, because I'm concerned about that as well."
He's been doing this using his drumming skills to bring out the melodies played by the other instruments for a long long time. It's his STYLE. He did it with Mike Keneally. He did it with Steve Vai. Don't read it like he's only doing this because he can not do it in other areas of Dream Theater.
Maybe you misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that he's only now doing it. This has been his MO because, quote MM, he's been a "replacement drummer" in all those bands, and in that function there's not a lot of creative outlet, other than slightly reinterpreting the previous drummer's stuff. And that's exactly what he's doing in DT right now because a) yes, of course he's a replacement drummer and b) quote MM again, he's not been included creatively in two albums.
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Or maybe it's just simply that he's posting this stuff because the band is about to go on a tour that is about Images and Words, and not because he has no other creative outlet with the band.
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Really, Rumbo?
"There are melodies and unison through throughout Images and Words, for example, and I'm going to use this drum set and my chops to really bring those out because it's more of what I do but it's without changing the essence of what is there, so what most people are used to, because I'm concerned about that as well."
He's been doing this using his drumming skills to bring out the melodies played by the other instruments for a long long time. It's his STYLE. He did it with Mike Keneally. He did it with Steve Vai. Don't read it like he's only doing this because he can not do it in other areas of Dream Theater.
Maybe you misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that he's only now doing it. This has been his MO because, quote MM, he's been a "replacement drummer" in all those bands, and in that function there's not a lot of creative outlet, other than slightly reinterpreting the previous drummer's stuff. And that's exactly what he's doing in DT right now because a) yes, of course he's a replacement drummer and b) quote MM again, he's not been included creatively in two albums.
Maybe, he over thought what his role in DT would be and it didn't meet what he thought. Of course he still accepted the offer because he gets to play his dream Kit.
It is hard to be the next new member, after a founding member of more than 20 years decides to leave. It's harder if that member was a driving force for the band in the studio and out.
You can see Mangini loves being in DT. He is allowed to feel a certain dissent of his position in the band. That's part of being in a band. I'm sure the next album will feature many contributions from all members.
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If Mangini seriously thought he would have just as much creative input as the others, joining a band of 25 years at the time, then that was really naive of him. You don't just walk on in like you own the place after getting the gig and say, "Okay guys, I'm thinking we should do this, this and that for this album. Thoughts?" It's surely a privilege you gain slowly, over time. The same was true of JR when he joined DT. His creative input slowly became more and more welcome with each album, and you can hear it. If Mangini is actually frustrated and unhappy (not saying he is), then he just needs to chill out and be patient.
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JR is involved in the writing process, sure, but JP is the clear leader. So I'd actually call DT a one-man project at this point.
That's a very extreme way of looking at it. Just because The Astonishing was JP's vision doesn't mean you should generalize and say DT is a "one-man project" lol. That's just silly. It was one album, and merely the latest. To make that kind of a judgement call after one album seems way premature. The self-titled album was entirely collaborative, as was ADToE, minus Mangini who was learning the rest of their catalogue to prepare for touring. So, it's hardly fair to say they are a "one-man project". If after two or three more albums it's still mostly JP coming up with everything, then your claim would not only make more sense, but apply.
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If Mangini seriously thought he would have just as much creative input as the others, joining a band of 25 years at the time, then that was really naive of him. You don't just walk on in like you own the place after getting the gig and say, "Okay guys, I'm thinking we should do this, this and that for this album. Thoughts?" It's surely a privilege you gain slowly, over time. The same was true of JR when he joined DT. His creative input slowly became more and more welcome with each album, and you can hear it. If Mangini is actually frustrated and unhappy (not saying he is), then he just needs to chill out and be patient.
It's not naive at all. He expected to be in the writing process and not what he's done as a hired gun before. Come into a polished song an add his florishes.
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If Mangini seriously thought he would have just as much creative input as the others, joining a band of 25 years at the time, then that was really naive of him. You don't just walk on in like you own the place after getting the gig and say, "Okay guys, I'm thinking we should do this, this and that for this album. Thoughts?" It's surely a privilege you gain slowly, over time. The same was true of JR when he joined DT. His creative input slowly became more and more welcome with each album, and you can hear it. If Mangini is actually frustrated and unhappy (not saying he is), then he just needs to chill out and be patient.
It's not naive at all. He expected to be in the writing process and not what he's done as a hired gun before. Come into a polished song an add his florishes.
First off, that's exactly what he got to do on the self-titled album...he got to come up with his own drum parts, and even had some input in the songwriting process. On ADToE, JP had a rough outline of programmed drums for the tunes, but Mangini still got to elaborate on them quite a bit. With The Astonishing, all of the music was written, and while JP did have a lot of say in the matter, Mangini got to come up with all kinds of drum parts - as long as they followed the flow of the composition, and were approved by JP. If anyone thinks that JP sat hunched over a computer for hours programming all these nuanced drum parts for The Astonishing, they're flat-out wrong. I specifically asked him at the meet and greet to what extent did he develop the drum parts, and he said he had a basic idea of the timing; whether a section would be half-time, whether it would be very upbeat and busy, or a laid back groove, etc. He didn't have very specific drum parts in mind - Mangini got to come up with a lot more than what people have been giving him credit for. In the end JP had final say on parts, yes, but he didn't sit down at a computer and program everything and hand it to Mangini and say "here, just play this". It was more along the lines of "that's great, try this instead" and "that was awesome, can you add more this, less that".
Secondly, I think you missed the point of what I was saying earlier. When he first joined the band, it would've been unrealistic of him to think he had equal creative input as the others, being brand new in a band that has been established for over twenty years. He's done great though, being the drummer and being able to be there and play what is requested of him at times, but also being able to infuse his style into the music as well. Again, I'm not saying he is unhappy based on that interview - I'm saying that if he actually is, he needs to realize that those privileges come with time. Or, if he feels really strongly about it, he should talk to the guys.
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In a way, I think he's respected MP's original drum parts a bit too much. Hopefully he's preparing to REALLY put his stamp on these songs.
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I specifically asked him at the meet and greet to what extent did he develop the drum parts, and he said he had a basic idea of the timing; whether a section would be half-time, whether it would be very upbeat and busy, or a laid back groove, etc. He didn't have very specific drum parts in mind - Mangini got to come up with a lot more than what people have been giving him credit for. In the end JP had final say on parts, yes, but he didn't sit down at a computer and program everything and hand it to Mangini and say "here, just play this". It was more along the lines of "that's great, try this instead" and "that was awesome, can you add more this, less that".
Indeed. That's exactly what producers do and JP is the only producer for the band. I don't know how people would think JP wrote the drum parts, I mean, listen to all three albums, even ADTOE (which had demos with drum programming), they all have TONS of Mangini-isms. It's pretty clear he has the freedom to come up with his own parts, but, as with any other member of the band, or any band, the producer gives instruction on how they want a part recorded, executed, etc.
In a way, I think he's respected MP's original drum parts a bit too much. Hopefully he's preparing to REALLY put his stamp on these songs.
As cool as that would be, if he does that, some people would just complain the hell about it, like some actually do when he changes subtle things. It's just not THAT easy for him to do that and expect the "fans" to not complain a lot.
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By the way, Mangini shows Lzzy Hale his drum kit and the first thing he shows is that it has an ambidextrous setup. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z4T3HUBtyY
He's "explained" it before - but I still don't get why his left hi-hat pedal is on the right hand side...
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By the way, Mangini shows Lzzy Hale his drum kit and the first thing he shows is that it has an ambidextrous setup. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z4T3HUBtyY
He's "explained" it before - but I still don't get why his left hi-hat pedal is on the right hand side...
I assume it's just because it's more complicated and thus gives him more of a challenge.
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I don't know how people would think JP wrote the drum parts, I mean, listen to all three albums, even ADTOE (which had demos with drum programming), they all have TONS of Mangini-isms. It's pretty clear he has the freedom to come up with his own parts, but, as with any other member of the band, or any band, the producer gives instruction on how they want a part recorded, executed, etc.
That's what I've been saying all along. Mangini has contributed a lot more than what people seem to be giving him credit for. As you said, I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that JP is doing everything, or that Mangini hasn't had a say in the matter as far as his drum parts are concerned.
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By the way, Mangini shows Lzzy Hale his drum kit and the first thing he shows is that it has an ambidextrous setup. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z4T3HUBtyY
He's "explained" it before - but I still don't get why his left hi-hat pedal is on the right hand side...
I assume it's just because it's more complicated and thus gives him more of a challenge.
He uses 4 hi-hats, two open and two closed. His main open hi-hat (on the right side) is controlled by his left foot, just like most drummers would do. His left side open hi-hat is controlled by his right foot, so he can play fully right handed or left handed without a problem. It's very difficult to get done, but, hey, this is Mangini we're talking about :biggrin:
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By the way, Mangini shows Lzzy Hale his drum kit and the first thing he shows is that it has an ambidextrous setup. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z4T3HUBtyY
He's "explained" it before - but I still don't get why his left hi-hat pedal is on the right hand side...
Because he does not cross his hands when drumming.
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By the way, Mangini shows Lzzy Hale his drum kit and the first thing he shows is that it has an ambidextrous setup. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z4T3HUBtyY
He's "explained" it before - but I still don't get why his left hi-hat pedal is on the right hand side...
Because he does not cross his hands when drumming.
That has nothing to do with where his pedals are. It would explain why his right hi hat pedal was on his left side, but not vice versa.
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That has nothing to do with where his pedals are. It would explain why his right hi hat pedal was on his left side, but not vice versa.
It does. Becauase he keeps an open stance, when he plays cymbals and hi-hats on the left side with his left hand, he then uses his right hand to hit the snare. Because his right hand hits the snare, the natural movement is to counter with the left foot playing the bass. Because the left foot is playing the bass, the free foot to control the hi-hats is the right foot. Which is why the pedals for his left hi hat is played using the right foot.
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It's surely a privilege you gain slowly, over time. The same was true of JR when he joined DT. His creative input slowly became more and more welcome with each album, and you can hear it.
I'm not sure how it's the same with JR. His input was pretty obvious immediately. Now there are albums where he had less freedom like TOT but that's just down to the musical style I think. Since Jordan was in LTE before he joined DT, that probably helped a lot as the majority of the band would have all worked together already by that point.
I know that wasn't really your main point, but still :P
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That has nothing to do with where his pedals are. It would explain why his right hi hat pedal was on his left side, but not vice versa.
It does. Becauase he keeps an open stance, when he plays cymbals and hi-hats on the left side with his left hand, he then uses his right hand to hit the snare. Because his right hand hits the snare, the natural movement is to counter with the left foot playing the bass. Because the left foot is playing the bass, the free foot to control the hi-hats is the right foot. Which is why the pedals for his left hi hat is played using the right foot.
That's only natural for someone who is left handed, the right handed person's right foot will always be the dominant one.
He purposefully trains himself to play ambidextrously, despite not naturally being so. Therefore, i'll stick to my original reason that it makes it more of a challenge for him.
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When I said natural, I meant that it is hard to play the snare with your right hand if your bass drum is played with the right foot also. So if you are playing the snare with your right hand, then it is more natural to play the bass with your left foot.
His ambidextrous playing is not really mere challenging himself. Its purpose was to realize his idea of how to orchestrate a song: darker sounding cymbals when a song goes to a lower key, brighter sounding cymbals when the song goes up a key. Following is a good example of when he goes left, when he goes right:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E7nGtoYckP4
So he plays right handed normally, but plays left handed when Cupid's Dead goes to a lower key in the stanza. If he does not do this, his other options are to cross arms (which he said is actually physically harder for him) or to load all the cymbal options on the right side of the kit (which is not desirable given the numbet of cymbals he use). So it's not really a challenge for him because playing left and right for him is the easier option that woukd allow him to orchestrate the drums the way he wants it.
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When I said natural, I meant that it is hard to play the snare with your right hand if your bass drum is played with the right foot also. S
No, it is not. What do you think open handed players do?
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I don't know how people would think JP wrote the drum parts, I mean, listen to all three albums, even ADTOE (which had demos with drum programming), they all have TONS of Mangini-isms. It's pretty clear he has the freedom to come up with his own parts, but, as with any other member of the band, or any band, the producer gives instruction on how they want a part recorded, executed, etc.
That's what I've been saying all along. Mangini has contributed a lot more than what people seem to be giving him credit for. As you said, I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that JP is doing everything, or that Mangini hasn't had a say in the matter as far as his drum parts are concerned.
What you are not getting is in the interview MM talks about being on the ground floor of the writing process. That's what he wants. Not when the song is flushed out and he puts his mark on it. He wants to be there for the structure of the song. It's infancy.
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But on DT12 they wrote and recorded at the same time.
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But on DT12 they wrote and recorded at the same time.
Yes. That's one out of 3 albums but in that interview he stated he wants to to that more. I'm not sure why people can't understand that?
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It makes sense to me that JP wrote The Astonishing mostly on his own with JR helping out with composition - because he's a world class composer and understands music theory like nobodies
business.
If all 5 people contributed to every song on The Astonishing - it would have diluted JPs original vision and ideas and might have moved too far away from what he wanted.
Also - at the time of ADTOE - Mangini said he was "so relieved" that they wrote the album without him.
So if anything he should only have beef with being excluded from writing on just the 1 album.
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Or maybe it's just simply that he's posting this stuff because the band is about to go on a tour that is about Images and Words, and not because he has no other creative outlet with the band.
Or maybe he just posted it because he felt like it. ;)
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It makes sense to me that JP wrote The Astonishing mostly on his own with JR helping out with composition - because he's a world class composer and understands music theory like nobodies
business.
If all 5 people contributed to every song on The Astonishing - it would have diluted JPs original vision and ideas and might have moved too far away from what he wanted.
Also - at the time of ADTOE - Mangini said he was "so relieved" that they wrote the album without him.
So if anything he should only have beef with being excluded from writing on just the 1 album.
Oh I get that but that doesn't mean that MM doesn't feel left out. That's all I'm saying.
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But on DT12 they wrote and recorded at the same time.
Yes. That's one out of 3 albums but in that interview he stated he wants to to that more. I'm not sure why people can't understand that?
i don't understand either, as MM laid it out so brutally plain in the video. He wants to be there during the creative writing part. For ADTOE he didn't expect anything, for DT12 he got into it a bit, so for TA he was probably hoping/expecting at least the same, if not more. Then he was entirely out of the picture again.
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But on DT12 they wrote and recorded at the same time.
Yes. That's one out of 3 albums but in that interview he stated he wants to to that more. I'm not sure why people can't understand that?
i don't understand either, as MM laid it out so brutally plain in the video. He wants to be there during the creative writing part. For ADTOE he didn't expect anything, for DT12 he got into it a bit, so for TA he was probably hoping/expecting at least the same, if not more. Then he was entirely out of the picture again.
I get why JP and JR wanted to do that. With an album that complex it would have been very difficult having 3 more voices in the room. At the same time, I don't blame MM for being frustrated at all. When TA was first being hyped, I thought it was the perfect time for the band to do a concept album. In retrospect, I think it was probably a pretty bad time considering the band dynamics. Then again, I'm pretty biased against TA so I would have much rather preferred almost anything to that album.
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TA seems like it is a one off kind of thing for the band. And ADTOE had its own circumstances. I think they will make the next album similar to coming up with DT12.
They have said they had an idea/direction about the next album. Hopefully MM will have a chance to contribute. I have a hard time thinking that after JP asked everyone to take a step back for the TA writing, that the next album would not have full blown band involvement.
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If my memory isn't cloudy, I believe that has already somewhat been confirmed, TAC. The ideas they have so far, from what I understand, have come from a collaborative effort.
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I can't wait for the next album already, and it's probably going to be released in late 2018 :'(
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I can't wait for the next album already, and it's probably going to be released in late 2018 :'(
DT albums are around 2 - 2.5 years apart.
The Astonishing came out in January 2016. Next album Mid 2018 probably. But we'll most likely start to get info about it after the I&W25 Tour.
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I can't wait for the next album already, and it's probably going to be released in late 2018 :'(
DT albums are around 2 - 2.5 years apart.
The Astonishing came out in January 2016. Next album Mid 2018 probably. But we'll most likely start to get info about it after the I&W25 Tour.
If we follow the way both ADTOE and DT12 were written and recorded, they entered the studio in January, and finished the recording and mixing around mid year. Then, a single would be released a couple months before that, and the album would arrive around September. I consider September to be "late 2018", but that's just me saying it's a lot of time untill that :sad:
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Sounds to me like the tone of someone working too hard and getting burned out or disappointed with the rewards. Seems he's talking like a hired gun during this interview. I personally would like to hear some more of his input in their music. Not buying the nonsense about DT's "level" of material. DT's songcraft is amazing in its compositional complexity, sure, but the results aren't always good songs, and they sit firmly on the musical chops shelf not on the great songwriters shelf in my opinion. I hope MM does a solo album and I hope it rocks. Frankly, JLB's solo stuff is pretty awesome, so maybe MM just needs an outlet like that for his musical creativity. Playing other people's fantasy rock opera in sync with a bunch of projectors and lights and computers must be a stressful job void of much enjoyment. The tone of his voice when he talks about it speaks volumes.
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I can't wait for the next album already, and it's probably going to be released in late 2018 :'(
DT albums are around 2 - 2.5 years apart.
The Astonishing came out in January 2016. Next album Mid 2018 probably. But we'll most likely start to get info about it after the I&W25 Tour.
If we follow the way both ADTOE and DT12 were written and recorded, they entered the studio in January, and finished the recording and mixing around mid year. Then, a single would be released a couple months before that, and the album would arrive around September. I consider September to be "late 2018", but that's just me saying it's a lot of time untill that :sad:
Yeah, but that has largely been dictated by tour schedule. They are mostly done touring The Astonishing now. The I&W and Beyond tour is much more limited in scope. I don't see anything keeping them from getting back into the studio before January 2018. And I don't think JP wants them to have that big a gap between albums.
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But on DT12 they wrote and recorded at the same time.
Yes. That's one out of 3 albums but in that interview he stated he wants to to that more. I'm not sure why people can't understand that?
As Kotowboy said, Mangini was actually relieved to not be included in the writing process for ADToE. He expressed that in several different interviews, so, it's hardly fair to count that album. The circumstances surrounding that album were very unique, and different from the normal routine. He really only has two albums to draw from; the self-titled and The Astonishing. He was included and present for the entire songwriting process on the self-titled, and not included at all in the songwriting for The Astonishing (although, as I said before, he did get to come up with most of the drum parts and arrangements, while sticking to the parameters set by JP).
I get that he wants to be included in the entire songwriting process, and doesn't want to be limited to only contributing drum parts, but he's only had TWO albums to draw from. He's only been in the band for what, almost seven years? It may seem like a lot, but in terms of album/tour cycles, that's nothing! Especially when compared to the amount of time MP was in the band. Out of two albums, he was included in the songwriting on one of them. Just because he wasn't on the following album, doesn't mean that will always be the case. He shouldn't express frustration about how on the first album (ADToE) he wasn't included, because that was part of the terms and conditions - to which he expressly agreed to and said he was "relieved" about. It seems way early in the game for him to complain about this sort of thing.
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When I said natural, I meant that it is hard to play the snare with your right hand if your bass drum is played with the right foot also. S
No, it is not. What do you think open handed players do?
Do you play drums?
For many open handed drummers, they had to LEARN how to lead with their strong foot and their weak arm, because it's easier to lead with both strong foot and strong arm. Unless you are Billy Cobham and you feel that it is your natural stance. It's also the reason why many open handed players express that they have achieved a higher level of limb independence and coordination compared to when they were doing cross handed drumming, because they forced themselves to lead with their weak arm.
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When I said natural, I meant that it is hard to play the snare with your right hand if your bass drum is played with the right foot also. S
No, it is not. What do you think open handed players do?
Do you play drums?
For many open handed drummers, they had to LEARN how to lead with their strong foot and their weak arm, because it's easier to lead with both strong foot and strong arm. Unless you are Billy Cobham and you feel that it is your natural stance. It's also the reason why many open handed players express that they have achieved a higher level of limb independence and coordination compared to when they were doing cross handed drumming, because they forced themselves to lead with their weak arm.
Yes, I play drums. And it hasn't ever felt awkward to me to play open handed / play the snare with my right hand. Guess that's just me though. :justjen
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I get that he wants to be included in the entire songwriting process, and doesn't want to be limited to only contributing drum parts, but he's only had TWO albums to draw from. He's only been in the band for what, almost seven years? It may seem like a lot, but in terms of album/tour cycles, that's nothing! Especially when compared to the amount of time MP was in the band. Out of two albums, he was included in the songwriting on one of them. Just because he wasn't on the following album, doesn't mean that will always be the case. He shouldn't express frustration about how on the first album (ADToE) he wasn't included, because that was part of the terms and conditions - to which he expressly agreed to and said he was "relieved" about. It seems way early in the game for him to complain about this sort of thing.
COME ON. Whatever profession one may be in, seven years is a LONG time to not make much headway. 3 albums is more than most bands even manage to put out, and who knows how long DT will stick around in its current formation.
It's also worth pointing out, because I get the impression people have forgotten the video itself, he even downplayed his contributions on DT12. Meaning, he wasn't satisfied with that level of contribution either. Again, he referred to himself as "10%". That's where he sees himself right now in the band. After seven years and three albums, a perceived 10% is poor, no matter how you twist it.
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I get that he wants to be included in the entire songwriting process, and doesn't want to be limited to only contributing drum parts, but he's only had TWO albums to draw from. He's only been in the band for what, almost seven years? It may seem like a lot, but in terms of album/tour cycles, that's nothing! Especially when compared to the amount of time MP was in the band. Out of two albums, he was included in the songwriting on one of them. Just because he wasn't on the following album, doesn't mean that will always be the case. He shouldn't express frustration about how on the first album (ADToE) he wasn't included, because that was part of the terms and conditions - to which he expressly agreed to and said he was "relieved" about. It seems way early in the game for him to complain about this sort of thing.
COME ON. Whatever profession one may be in, seven years is a LONG time to not make much headway. 3 albums is more than most bands even manage to put out, and who knows how long DT will stick around in its current formation.
It's also worth pointing out, because I get the impression people have forgotten the video itself, he even downplayed his contributions on DT12. Meaning, he wasn't satisfied with that level of contribution either. Again, he referred to himself as "10%". That's where he sees himself right now in the band. After seven years and three albums, a perceived 10% is poor, no matter how you twist it.
Bingo. It may even be he wants more control over the drum sound as well.
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I get that he wants to be included in the entire songwriting process, and doesn't want to be limited to only contributing drum parts, but he's only had TWO albums to draw from. He's only been in the band for what, almost seven years? It may seem like a lot, but in terms of album/tour cycles, that's nothing! Especially when compared to the amount of time MP was in the band. Out of two albums, he was included in the songwriting on one of them. Just because he wasn't on the following album, doesn't mean that will always be the case. He shouldn't express frustration about how on the first album (ADToE) he wasn't included, because that was part of the terms and conditions - to which he expressly agreed to and said he was "relieved" about. It seems way early in the game for him to complain about this sort of thing.
COME ON. Whatever profession one may be in, seven years is a LONG time to not make much headway. 3 albums is more than most bands even manage to put out, and who knows how long DT will stick around in its current formation.
It's also worth pointing out, because I get the impression people have forgotten the video itself, he even downplayed his contributions on DT12. Meaning, he wasn't satisfied with that level of contribution either. Again, he referred to himself as "10%". That's where he sees himself right now in the band. After seven years and three albums, a perceived 10% is poor, no matter how you twist it.
Wow, you really love hitting on this 10% thing. I have a chart for you.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XVBZjldKn_v8M-vz7xQ1SYDKo8vZ_-ZYDWM0mdwkSQzEsSS9ZdJUIaMxR1z0gbVEqezpA0O8VPmV2kuJKuOO8Pwa7K83TJ7lUMmXyvlVM0hw3kKCYgd-iphEi2xkP5d54V_fgaLh62JWLM9nRo7YGFkyy4yB0tqSvY7rpwlrrCkEoyXoVInx1JetjVchcborAHEvBa7lsrWFr7ubKjkf-1OmGc-AsrFEJJZrEDlPOQF9ypyiWklhjzHSQt5XahrLucyWX6Wb9rPHcF_6l9y8-CzTrN5SZDeM0aYX7kdfPY0ecwqOo2o31aC7Xa7EYFob7481vMyvl4Kf1k9j1H4p8QOBVh1ZuEqmMVvrNW7YF08oq1hRJo8ae4XCWL20V0D9T6Hvppkb8BWM2CPiexOwYv0zXFV04xq1_c_WcYioddu3eLs6XEEk1Hjxh6u_OLgSzv5dGDccV0W68D7J6ly7p9lDYIfgUgLZQZBZjHfag4UeNT5K4PhY1u0j5Qf8V0TTZLsNwuLMdSeRoW9qKdP3W7Nu1j9FYOxvNUg9DwHRtWiMGGHHOCW_GfiOnAeFxMqR3Ocf707cI2gqgfAMSSN8Nk1MX-ma1AJu0tDZM86GcXT9rjUwbR8BBhm-1RdyEe-dmNr73bQDFeNdrImDLQxSh9T8meSnWtRU8Dtq_INA=w821-h350-no)
:lol :lol :lol
Anyway, instead of just stopping at the 10%, I would rather focus on his statement after that: "But I’m still like… I’m like 10%, you know? So it’s getting there over time.."
And that he is proactively doing something about it by doing a solo album:
"I’m learning, I’m doing this right now as a learning experience. How am I supposed to offer stuff to a band like Dream Theater, which I have, but it just… it’s not on their level, so you know, I’ll do my stuff that’s not the same as theirs and well, whatever....Mainly I’m learning right now."
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I get that he wants to be included in the entire songwriting process, and doesn't want to be limited to only contributing drum parts, but he's only had TWO albums to draw from. He's only been in the band for what, almost seven years? It may seem like a lot, but in terms of album/tour cycles, that's nothing! Especially when compared to the amount of time MP was in the band. Out of two albums, he was included in the songwriting on one of them. Just because he wasn't on the following album, doesn't mean that will always be the case. He shouldn't express frustration about how on the first album (ADToE) he wasn't included, because that was part of the terms and conditions - to which he expressly agreed to and said he was "relieved" about. It seems way early in the game for him to complain about this sort of thing.
COME ON. Whatever profession one may be in, seven years is a LONG time to not make much headway. 3 albums is more than most bands even manage to put out, and who knows how long DT will stick around in its current formation.
It's also worth pointing out, because I get the impression people have forgotten the video itself, he even downplayed his contributions on DT12. Meaning, he wasn't satisfied with that level of contribution either. Again, he referred to himself as "10%". That's where he sees himself right now in the band. After seven years and three albums, a perceived 10% is poor, no matter how you twist it.
Again, not sure why you're counting ADToE...he knew going into it that he wasn't going to be included...and he said he was not only okay with it, but that he was relieved. So, he (or anyone else) shouldn't factor that album into his complaining. Like I said, he really only has two albums to draw from; the self-titled and The Astonishing. That's just two albums, for god's sake. One of which he was included and present throughout the entire songwriting process. I wouldn't be complaining about this kinda crap after just two albums, when I was really only excluded from one. But, that's just me.
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Stewie, I guess we're just gonna have to differ, and judging from the video, I would say MM judges the situation similar to me. 7 years and 3 albums is an eternity for a band. There's only so many chances in life, and JR is 60 already.
BTW, different tack: I was riding the train earlier and listened to older MM material. Is there any album that he/we view as where he would have had full creative reign? My best guess would be Mullmuzzler, but even there I felt he played very "practical".
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Stewie, I guess we're just gonna have to differ, and judging from the video, I would say MM judges the situation similar to me. 7 years and 3 albums is an eternity for a band. There's only so many chances in life, and JR is 60 already.
BTW, different tack: I was riding the train earlier and listened to older MM material. Is there any album that he/we view as where he would have had full creative reign? My best guess would be Mullmuzzler, but even there I felt he played very "practical".
No worries man, I get where you're coming from. And, that's a good question. How much input did he have on Elements of Persuasion? Do we know?
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Not to quibble, but where are we getting 7 years? Mangini officially joined the band in, what, late 2010/early 2011, so it's 6 years at most. Call it semantics, but stretching it to 7 seems like a way of exaggerating his current tenure in the band to make it sound worse.
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Rumborak exaggerate to hammer home his point of view? No way.
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BTW, different tack: I was riding the train earlier and listened to older MM material. Is there any album that he/we view as where he would have had full creative reign? My best guess would be Mullmuzzler, but even there I felt he played very "practical".
But he is practical. His approach to drumming is to bring out what the other instruments are doing, so most of his creativity is subtle and not calling atttention to itself.
Mullmuzzler's first album is not a good example. I would rather listen to Mullmuzzler's second album, LaBrie's Elements of Persuasion album, Steve Vai's Alive in an Ultra World album, and the song Egg Zooming with Mike Keneally
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Rumborak exaggerate to hammer home his point of view? No way.
What happened to you, dude. You've become unbearable.
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Anyway, here's a March 2016 Mangini interview.
https://drummagazine.com/mike-mangini-writes-his-own-rules/
In it, he described his songwriting as "doing it while inhaling a plate of linguine vongole." :lol
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Not to quibble, but where are we getting 7 years? Mangini officially joined the band in, what, late 2010/early 2011, so it's 6 years at most. Call it semantics, but stretching it to 7 seems like a way of exaggerating his current tenure in the band to make it sound worse.
Maybe rumby is referring to how long it will be until recording the next album when MM will (hopefully) finally get the level of input he wants.
Or maybe rumby can't count. I don't know.
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Rumborak exaggerate to hammer home his point of view? No way.
What happened to you, dude. You've become unbearable.
:lol I'm not the one who has been calling you out.
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Anyway, here's a March 2016 Mangini interview.
https://drummagazine.com/mike-mangini-writes-his-own-rules/
In it, he described his songwriting as "doing it while inhaling a plate of linguine vongole." :lol
Cool that he got to play that Super Bowl afterparty.
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He's so happy sharing how to play a bit in Surrounded.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9GOFZurACHE
Loved it when he tried to sing the part. :lol And the swing face!
What's amazing about that fill is that he did it only with his right hand because his left hand is still keeping the beat in the snare as in the record.
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The production clouds only the ghost notes in the hi-hat and rides (although these are quite noticeable in Surrender to Reason, The Looking Glass and A Life Left Behind). The other Mangini-isms are not muddied by the production. The most noticeable is his crisp bass drum playing, where he is very playful, compared to the snare where he plays simple downbeats. Outside DT, good examples of his bass drum style is in Venice Burning with Mulmuzzler, the whole Elements of Persuasion album of JLB, and Thanks for Nothing with Tribe of Judah. In the DT songs, best examples are in Bridges in the Sky and The Path that Divides, especially the "rap" part. Another very noticeable Mangini style is going up and down the scale in unison with the other instruments.
A lot of Mangini-isms, though, are subtle. It's his style to blend in the music. For example, hearing him play two different patterns at once takes some being used to. One of my favorites is at the start of OTBOA, where his bass and snare is doing the rhythm and bass guitar pattern, while the cymbals is doing the keyboard pattern. You won't notice it until you listen to the patterns separately. Then there's The Walking Shadow, where the crash is doing an extended meter in sync with the guitar while the snare is following Labrie's lines that is on a decreasing time signature. The one handed drum rolls only become apparent when you realize that you are still hearing a constant cymbal hit on the downbeat while there is a drum roll :lol . Then there are the crazy things like doing two snare rolls at the same time to mimic a marching band in Astonishing.
So Mangini-isms are all over once you learn to hear them. For me, a good sampler would be OTBOA, LNF, BITS, STR, IT, A Life Left Behind, The Path that Divides and The Walking Shadow. You would get the Mangini style with these songs.
I'm not a drummer and MP was much easier for a non-drummer to take notice of, I think. At least it was for me (plus the drums were so loud in the mix). However I was blown away by MM maybe the 3rd or 4th time I saw him live (the first few shows I was coming to terms with MP not being there) and have appreciated him live ever since. On the albums I admit that it's harder to notice what he's doing, and I haven't really tried that hard. I love how detailed this post is and when I get a chance, I'm going to try to go through this and some of your other suggestions to give him a little more attention. So thanks for this. :)
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It's my pleasure to help more people appreciate Mangini more. :) A lot of times, his brilliance is easy to overlook. For example, in the last Youtube vid I shared, you might think it's just a simple fill going down the scale following JP's guitar. Until you focus on his left hand and notice that he is still keeping the beat while also doing the fill.
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He's so happy sharing how to play a bit in Surrounded.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9GOFZurACHE
Loved it when he tried to sing the part. :lol And the swing face!
What's amazing about that fill is that he did it only with his right hand because his left hand is still keeping the beat in the snare as in the record.
I think it's incredibly cool how he labors over these parts.
Overall I wish he put less emphasis on following the other instruments, he does that a lot with the bass drum too. In this specific instance I don't think much is added by mirroring JP's run on the toms. In fact, there's a distinct danger that his toms will muddy up the guitar line because they operate in the same range. I feel a "proper" fill, I.e. one that breaks with the rhythm of the other instruments and "preempts" the new upcoming beat, would work so much better in that spot. I mean, that's why drummers do it that way, because it works so well.
This thing is a classic example for me of "skill-wise out of this world impressive, musically not (to me at least)".
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On one hand, you have many posts saying Mangini has a generic nondistinct style. But in posts where you go to the details, you actually wish that Mangini would play like other drummers.
Going up and down the scale, complementing what the other instruments are doing has alwaus been Mangini's signature orchestration style. It's a Terry Bozzio influence, orchestrating drum parts as if the drums are melodic not just rhythmic, instruments. Nuno Bettencourt loved him for it. Mike Keneally loved him for it. Steve Vai especially loved him for it.
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On one hand, you have many posts saying Mangini has a generic nondistinct style. But in posts where you go to the details, you actually wish that Mangini would play like other drummers.
That's a mischaracterization of my stance. He is very distinct in certain parts (e.g. his work on the cymbals), but those parts get buried in the music, and what remains to the listener are very straightforward bass+snare beats. This example is in the same vein; his tom run will likely go entirely unnoticed. It's odd since he *wants* to add his indelible mark, but then shies away from really going for it, e.g. doing an actual modification of that section.
And no, playing a fill isn't generic. That's like saying playing a power chord on the guitar is generic. It's all about what exactly you're playing.
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But his M.O. is to orchestrate to what the other instruments are doing. That's what he loves doing for so long:
A 1998 collab with Nuno: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWhqGPKfqvA
A 2000 performance with Steve Vai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3qMFp2G9dE
A 1997 monster track with Mike Keneally that made him a drumming legend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXcbXZ_H9BA
And I disagree that his cymbals are what's distinct about him (unless you are referring to the shifting from left to right and vice versa thing). It has always been the way he plays the bass drums as a strong rhythm and how he orchestrates his drumming to the other instruments. He's not shying away from "going for it" because to him, what he is doing is what is musical to his ears. He was never a drum fill guy. He has always been a my-drum-will-highlight-the-other-instruments guy. If you are asking that he go for it and be a drum fill guy, you're basically asking for a different drummer.
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What you are saying is probably true, but it leaves me being a :sadpanda: . I'm not a drumming aficionado, so I essentially need the tabasco sauce of drum seasoning, and a good sauce are drum fills. I would venture to guess that all the drummers I love I partially do because of the excellent stuff they do on the snare.
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You won't get much of that from him, as he usually uses the snare to maintain the underlying beat of songs. I think his approach was really affected by his experience with his first recorded studio work with Annihilator's Set The World On Fire album. He was then a young drummer full of energy but he had a hard time playing to a metronome and keeping a simple beat, so much so that he was hospitalized after the recording session. He learned to keep a steady beat after that.
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I'm not a drummer and MP was much easier for a non-drummer to take notice of, I think. At least it was for me (plus the drums were so loud in the mix). However I was blown away by MM maybe the 3rd or 4th time I saw him live (the first few shows I was coming to terms with MP not being there) and have appreciated him live ever since. On the albums I admit that it's harder to notice what he's doing, and I haven't really tried that hard. I love how detailed this post is and when I get a chance, I'm going to try to go through this and some of your other suggestions to give him a little more attention. So thanks for this. :)
You might also be interested in this thread on Mangini's pre-DT work that I started back in 2015.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44034.0
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Imagine if Mangini joined AC/DC as Phil Rudd's replacement and he made a 10 minute video explaining how he plays Back in Black :lol
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You won't get much of that from him, as he usually uses the snare to maintain the underlying beat of songs.
Interestingly, that may somewhat explain his album snare sound. If he views the purpose of the snare not like most drummers (I.e. as a central piece of their drumming performance, thus requiring a lot of subtlety in the sound), he might not even object to the very compressed snare sound he has. If he uses it solely as a beat keeper, that kind of sound is actually desirable.
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Imagine if Mangini joined AC/DC as Phil Rudd's replacement and he made a 10 minute video explaining how he plays Back in Black :lol
What's so funny? I'd love to watch that.
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Imagine if Mangini joined AC/DC as Phil Rudd's replacement and he made a 10 minute video explaining how he plays Back in Black :lol
What's so funny? I'd love to watch that.
Because it's a 10 minute video explaining how to play Back in Black.
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It's funny because he'd spend ten minutes explaining why he's playing a back beat in 4/4
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It's funny because he'd spend ten minutes explaining why he's playing a back beat in 4/4
It's actually micropatterns of 5/16, 7/16, 3/16, and 1/16. With alternating accents with his left foot/right hand and right foot/left hand, choosing alternating hi hats and kick drums (he has 3 still) based on the chord progression being used at the moment.
But to the untrained ear, it sounds like 4/4.
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It may SOWND like bass Snehhh bass snehhh but In FACT , hehe, what im DOING is im playing 19/16 because I FCKING LOVE 19/16 ALRIGHT ??
I FUCKING LOVE 19/16 HOLY FUCK.
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It may SOWND like flap pang! flap pang! ...
FTFY
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On a more serious note, what's his obsession with not doing bounces? He seems to go to extreme ends, involving stiffening his back muscles, solely for the purpose of avoiding them, where (to my understanding) every drummer on the planet uses them.
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On a more serious note, what's his obsession with not doing bounces? He seems to go to extreme ends, involving stiffening his back muscles, solely for the purpose of avoiding them, where (to my understanding) every drummer on the planet uses them.
Because he wants to have every single hit be at the same exact volume.
That's why a lot of people say he sounds like a drum machine I guess.
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On a more serious note, what's his obsession with not doing bounces? He seems to go to extreme ends, involving stiffening his back muscles, solely for the purpose of avoiding them, where (to my understanding) every drummer on the planet uses them.
He's not obssessrd with it. He's showing that when you do a fill that is based on speed, it's better to do full hits than bounces, which are better used for swing and jazz patterns.
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On one hand I respect his desire to be the most complex / technical drummer out there.
But on the other hand - it sounds robotic and un-natural.
It's the ever so slight mis-hits and push and pull that makes a song breathe.
When every single hit is smack bang on the grid - it sounds machine like and lifeless.
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It's the ever so slight mis-hits and push and pull that makes a song breathe.
When every single hit is smack bang on the grid - it sounds machine like and lifeless.
Interestingly, most MIDI sequencers have an option called "humanize" that puts a random element on a MIDI track, for the purpose of making it sound less sterile. Of course that also includes a slightly randomized velocity, I.e. volume of each hit.
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Yes I have it on EZDrummer. I always put it on full. Even when a snare hit is like a 64th note off the beat.
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On top of the random element there's of course also consistent shifts across notes. Hit every note a bit early and it sounds excited and pushy; hit each slightly late and it sounds sluggish. There's like 50 different Italian words in classical music to indicate the different intended vibes.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEMTzBTHiSo
Does not sound like a robot to me.
Actually, I would dare anybody to say with a straight face that his performance of The Shattered Fortress in BTFW is robotic also.
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That drumming reminded me of a '90s drum machine track, reminded me of Surfing With The Alien. That snare fill at 1:12 in particular was unnaturally even sounding to me. The thing that makes a snare fill interesting as opposed to sounding like a MIDI machine gun is dynamics, which it was lacking.
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Actually, I would dare anybody to say with a straight face that his performance of The Shattered Fortress in BTFW is robotic also.
His performance on TSF completely ruined the mellow part of the song. Like what the hell was he trying to accomplish there? Unnecessary fills, and when he does the crescendo buildup to the TROAE prechorus part his volume doesn't go up at all, because he's already going full power during the mellow section.
Overall I would say Mangini does really well in the metal / heavy parts, but his playing on softer songs live always leaves me craving something else.
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Well, there's really just no convincing some of you. :lol
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Well, there's really just no convincing some of you. :lol
Well, I think this just comes down to a matter of taste. So it might be like trying to convince a person who loves jazz and classical music to listen to death metal and like it.
I don't think we are implying that Mangini is a bad drummer. For example I don't like Neil Peart at all, he is an amazing drummer no doubt, but he just looks so incredibly bloody stiff when he is playing that I can't stand to watch him play.
What sounds robotic and out of place for me might be exactly what you look for in drumming.
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While it's true that the mellow part in TSF should be played respecting the mood, when I saw what Mangini did on BTFW, I suddenly had this huge smile on my face. That's what he does best, he has fun with the instrument and that shows. You can see that in his Youtube videos too.
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I prefer Mangini as a person but I preferred Portnoy's playing.
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The whole MM vs MP will never go away, will it? :P
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The whole MM vs MP will never go away, will it? :P
Never! And that's really unfortunate.
B.Lee
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The whole MM vs MP will never go away, will it? :P
Why would it? The KM/DS/JR discussions haven't gone away, nor have the JM 1.0 vs 1.1 vs 2.0 discussions.
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The whole MM vs MP will never go away, will it? :P
Why would it? The KM/DS/JR discussions haven't gone away, nor have the JM 1.0 vs 1.1 vs 2.0 discussions.
And let's not forget the heated discussions about who's better out of JLB and CD.
Let's just say they get out of haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand.
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Well, there's really just no convincing some of you. :lol
What sounds robotic and out of place for me might be exactly what you look for in drumming.
That's a not-very-subtle way of saying others that what you look for in drumming is kinda more in line than what he looks for. :lol
Either way, I kinda disagree with what you said earlier. Portnoy, although extremely musical in most of his endeavours, also has been criticized for overplaying parts and being loud where he really didn't 'have' to be (whatever that means). It the musician of that calibre is loud in a specific part, is because he/she considered that was the way to go. Of course we're entitled to like it or hate it, but who are we to tell them 'hey Mangini, you should play this part quietly because it fits best!'?
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Well, there's really just no convincing some of you. :lol
What sounds robotic and out of place for me might be exactly what you look for in drumming.
That's a not-very-subtle way of saying others that what you look for in drumming is kinda more in line than what he looks for. :lol
No, it's not. And if you see it that way. :loser: My intention was never to put anyone down. Heck, some people love programmed drums.
It the musician of that calibre is loud in a specific part, is because he/she considered that was the way to go. Of course we're entitled to like it or hate it, but who are we to tell them 'hey Mangini, you should play this part quietly because it fits best!'?
I may have worded it a bit too strongly (as I tend to do on this forum), but I only expressed my dislike for what he did in TSF and was pondering why he would do that in that specific part. All I was trying to get across is that I don't like Mangini's playing over soft parts / songs.
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I would say it's an overall valid statement that MM struggles with quiet parts, I think both a result of his technique and the drum sound he gets on albums. Act of Faythe is my prime example for this, where the drums seemingly just can't be quiet, no matter how he tries. Like, it's pretty obvious that there was supposed to be a crescendo around the 3:15 mark, but the drums already essentially had maxed out during the quiet part.
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I would say it's an overall valid statement that MM struggles with quiet parts, I think both a result of his technique and the drum sound he gets on albums. Act of Faythe is my prime example for this, where the drums seemingly just can't be quiet, no matter how he tries. Like, it's pretty obvious that there was supposed to be a crescendo around the 3:15 mark, but the drums already essentially had maxed out during the quiet part.
I remember reading an interview or something after ADTOE came out and MM said the most challenging song on that record for him to play was This is the Life because it was a softer more ballad type tune.
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MM's comment was more about the need for more disciplined and simpler drumming, not about dynamics. It's the same comment by Myung, where he also had to be restrained because of the multiple layers of tracks.
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I wan't saying it as a knock to MM. I just remembered him saying that and was surprised, since it's one of the "simpler" songs on that record.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUavFsfbFv8
The drumming on this is what I aim for as far as dynamics.
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I would say it's an overall valid statement that MM struggles with quiet parts, I think both a result of his technique and the drum sound he gets on albums. Act of Faythe is my prime example for this, where the drums seemingly just can't be quiet, no matter how he tries. Like, it's pretty obvious that there was supposed to be a crescendo around the 3:15 mark, but the drums already essentially had maxed out during the quiet part.
I remember reading an interview or something after ADTOE came out and MM said the most challenging song on that record for him to play was This is the Life because it was a softer more ballad type tune.
I actually really really like MM's drumming on the softer songs on JLB's Elements of Persuassion. I thought he was a bit over the top for those softer songs, but I felt like it worked and made the songs unique. That was one of the first times I had heard MM and thought "I like this drummer".
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I would say it's an overall valid statement that MM struggles with quiet parts, I think both a result of his technique and the drum sound he gets on albums. Act of Faythe is my prime example for this, where the drums seemingly just can't be quiet, no matter how he tries. Like, it's pretty obvious that there was supposed to be a crescendo around the 3:15 mark, but the drums already essentially had maxed out during the quiet part.
What I find interesting about this is I remember several interviews where he's mentioned being classically-trained...but in those settings you absolutely need to be good at dynamics and playing softly.
I also do remember him saying that in DT his dynamics really have to be extreme, which is partially why he uses multiple bass drums, to really exaggerate dynamics in a song.
I am not sure how much of this is his choice and how much is told to him by the rest of the band. I mean, MP also played too loud in places IMO.
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Mangini just doesn't handle dynamics well. His thing is being able to do single-handed drum rolls, playing ambidextrous, being stupid good with polyrhythms, etc. Beyond that, there's not much depth to his playing. That's probably why so many people think his drumming sounds no different than a drum machine, or programmed drums.
As far as the comment regarding his playing on The Shattered Fortress, I didn't really care for the overplaying he did during the mellow section. It just seemed really out of place, and too loud. Having said that, some of the other fills he added in the upbeat parts of the song were pretty sick.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUavFsfbFv8
The drumming on this is what I aim for as far as dynamics.
I don't really like the band much, but man the drum sound and playing is on point. Sounds fucking wonderful.
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Mangini just doesn't handle dynamics well. His thing is being able to do single-handed drum rolls, playing ambidextrous, being stupid good with polyrhythms, etc. Beyond that, there's not much depth to his playing. That's probably why so many people think his drumming sounds no different than a drum machine, or programmed drums.
And this is where his drumming doesn't work for me. I recognize the skill and work that goes into what he does, but I value dynamics over all of those other things.
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I personally wouldn't call the dynamics what I love about drums. For me, there's nothing more delightful than when I hear the actual instrument. Like, the subtle scratch of the stick over the drum skin, the always slightly different sound of the ride bell when hit. When I get the impression I'm sitting next to the drums, that's when it sounds good.
JP's guitar sound is for the most part fantastic, and in the top 5 of my favorite guitar sounds. At the same time I wish he chucked the suspended Floyd Rose 7-string going through a Triple Rectifier Mesa Boogie with Axe-FX chorus and delay occasionally, for a Strat and an Orange amp. I think FII was the only album where he played a Strat.
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I generally don't like an overly processed guitar sound but JP really has his nailed for the most part. It works for what he's doing I guess. I'd like to hear him on a more stripped down set up only if the music called for it and DT haven't really written any music that called for that sort of thing since Octavarium, at least.
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The whole MM vs MP will never go away, will it? :P
Like Alan White always living in Bill Bruford's shadow for Yes fans.
I generally don't like an overly processed guitar sound but JP really has his nailed for the most part. It works for what he's doing I guess. I'd like to hear him on a more stripped down set up only if the music called for it and DT haven't really written any music that called for that sort of thing since Octavarium, at least.
You must not have heard of The Astonishing then.
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Like Alan White always living in Bill Bruford's shadow for Yes fans.
Alan White will always be the best oasis drummer :neverusethis:
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Damn it!
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I wasn't a huge MM fan until I saw BTFW. I could actually hear what he was playing. It is hard to hear what he is doing on studio albums (at least for a non-musician like me).
If you haven't seen BTFW you really owe it to yourself to watch it; I gained a whole new appreciation for MM.
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I wasn't a huge MM fan until I saw BTFW. I could actually hear what he was playing. It is hard to hear what he is doing on studio albums (at least for a non-musician like me).
If you haven't seen BTFW you really owe it to yourself to watch it; I gained a whole new appreciation for MM.
Definitely a good watch. I thought MM's playing of TSF was a highlight of that blu-ray.
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BTFW performance is great, except for the guitar solo section of Trial of Tears, where MM's playing was stiff.
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I may have worded it a bit too strongly (as I tend to do on this forum), but I only expressed my dislike for what he did in TSF and was pondering why he would do that in that specific part. All I was trying to get across is that I don't like Mangini's playing over soft parts / songs.
Yeah, that's the thing with forums in general, sometimes opinions get mixed with facts and come off in a strong and sometimes misleading way. I understood what the intent of your post was. IMO though, I FUCKING LOVE THAT PART in TSF on BTFW and prefer it over the original. :o
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BTFW performance is great, except for the guitar solo section of Trial of Tears, where MM's playing was stiff.
It reminds me of that thing I heard on my degree that absolute world class orchestra musicians have been so regimented to read music their whole life and to play other people's music..
...that if you ask them to just improvise - they wouldn't know how to.
Obviously I don't think Mangini doesn't know how to improvise but that section feels like he's doing a pre-thought out "solo" than just going for it and playing for the moment.
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I like BTFW overall, but Trial of Tears doesn't work for me on that. The fusion solo section doesn't groove at all.
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I like BTFW overall, but Trial of Tears doesn't work for me on that. The fusion solo section doesn't groove at all.
My problem with the solo section isn't the drumming at all, but that Jordan brutally murdered one of Derek's best keyboard solos ever (it gets even worse when you realize Derek hates keytars with all his soul) :'(
And, for the record, I've always prefered Jordan over Derek and Kevin, but he changes their keyboard solos way too much and just plays fast scale runs and all thar :-\
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I like Derek more than Kevin but Jordan the most up until his solos just all became wanking on the continuum and he lost his SFAM lead sound - which was the best one.
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I personally wouldn't call the dynamics what I love about drums. For me, there's nothing more delightful than when I hear the actual instrument. Like, the subtle scratch of the stick over the drum skin, the always slightly different sound of the ride bell when hit. When I get the impression I'm sitting next to the drums, that's when it sounds good.
JP's guitar sound is for the most part fantastic, and in the top 5 of my favorite guitar sounds. At the same time I wish he chucked the suspended Floyd Rose 7-string going through a Triple Rectifier Mesa Boogie with Axe-FX chorus and delay occasionally, for a Strat and an Orange amp. I think FII was the only album where he played a Strat.
Amen to that. So much. :tup
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I think JP aims to ultimately sound like one of Jordans solo patches
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My problem with the solo section isn't the drumming at all, but that Jordan brutally murdered one of Derek's best keyboard solos ever (it gets even worse when you realize Derek hates keytars with all his soul) :'(
And, for the record, I've always prefered Jordan over Derek and Kevin, but he changes their keyboard solos way too much and just plays fast scale runs and all thar :-\
I have another recording of Jordan playing that solo from later in the tour, and it sounds much better. Less runs, more melodic. So I guess it depended on the night. Sad that he couldn't do that on the DVD though.
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I think JP aims to ultimately sound like one of Jordans solo patches
I like it when JP's solos are so fast and precise that it sounds like an old coin-op Galaga challenge mode or something totally 8-bit. I'd like to see JP take a page out of Gary Clarke Jr's book and strip down to a cheap Epiphone and fuzz pedal and record a blues record. He should sing too. That would be awesome. He could write songs about weightlifting and stuff, it would be heavy...
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BTFW performance is great, except for the guitar solo section of Trial of Tears, where MM's playing was stiff.
It reminds me of that thing I heard on my degree that absolute world class orchestra musicians have been so regimented to read music their whole life and to play other people's music..
...that if you ask them to just improvise - they wouldn't know how to.
Obviously I don't think Mangini doesn't know how to improvise but that section feels like he's doing a pre-thought out "solo" than just going for it and playing for the moment.
Mangini was not improvising in the guitar solo section. He's playing exactly to the beat, and the problem was he was too exact. The good parts were the ones where he tried to sneak in moments to hit a double bass.
Are you talking about the fill before the guitar solo? If so, that fill is awesome. :lol
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Just watched this again, and remembered how much more awesome this version is than the BTFW version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDiiOKa2pGY
:metal
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I like BTFW overall, but Trial of Tears doesn't work for me on that. The fusion solo section doesn't groove at all.
My problem with the solo section isn't the drumming at all, but that Jordan brutally murdered one of Derek's best keyboard solos ever (it gets even worse when you realize Derek hates keytars with all his soul) :'(
And, for the record, I've always prefered Jordan over Derek and Kevin, but he changes their keyboard solos way too much and just plays fast scale runs and all thar :-\
Yep. As awesome as Rudess is, whenever he changes keyboard solos originally done by Moore or Sherinian, he butchers them.
Also, even though it is one of my favorite DT songs, Trial of Tears is one of their songs where the live versions never touch the studio version. Granted, I think it is rare for live versions to be better anyway, but the distance on that one is pretty wide, IMO.
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Just watched this again, and remembered how much more awesome this version is than the BTFW version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDiiOKa2pGY
:metal
Oh, man, I forgot how good that was. Gets me even more excited for the next album, even though it's still a looooong wait for it :sad:
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Also, even though it is one of my favorite DT songs, Trial of Tears is one of their songs where the live versions never touch the studio version. Granted, I think it is rare for live versions to be better anyway, but the distance on that one is pretty wide, IMO.
Yep, I agree with this. Blind Faith is another one of those for me.
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Can we rename the thread? This doesn't seem to have anything to do with the interview anymore.
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Since when does the thread content have anything to do with the thread title?
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I think I'd be disappointed if a DTF thread went this long without going off topic.
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Hey, at least we're still talking about the guy in the thread title. That says something.
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Yeah, compared to some other threads, this really isn't off topic at all.
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I think I'd be disappointed if a DTF thread went this long without going off topic.
Cheese.
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Cheese sticks every day, now I'm spoiled beyond my wildest dreams.
(Speaking of Blind Faith, and cheese)
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Mozzarella
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To try to keep this "in topic", here's a very nice interview (or something like that) from 2014 with Mike where he explains some aspects of his technique, and talks about things like dynamics, accuracy, etc. It's a really cool read, if you ask me.
https://www.musicradar.com/news/drums/5-steps-to-playing-drums-the-mike-mangini-way-604583
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I felt it a bit surreal reading that article, especially in this section:
. It's not the timing of the drum machine that makes it sound unpleasant and robotic to most of us, it's the dynamics that give it the awful sound.
I must wonder, is he unaware of what a lot of people say about his drumming?
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I felt it a bit surreal reading that article, especially in this section:
. It's not the timing of the drum machine that makes it sound unpleasant and robotic to most of us, it's the dynamics that give it the awful sound.
I must wonder, is he unaware of what a lot of people say about his drumming?
Mike's a very dynamic player, it's just the way his drums end up sitting in the mix that makes his playing sound "flat" for some people (I actually enjoy his playing a lot).
I think he's aware of what some people say about him being "robotic", but he chooses to not listen to them, which is a wise move imo. He's got a very tough job replacing MP and he's completely aware that he won't be able to please all the fans.
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Breaking All Illusions is very dynamic.
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Breaking All Illusions is very dynamic.
ADTOE has a great drum mix. It's been the only album on which I've actually enjoyed Mangini's drumming. Bridges In The Sky and BAI have some killer drum parts.
To be honest if Petrucci used less chorus on his main tone then that would probably be my favourite DT production/mix of all time.
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As awesome as Rudess is, whenever he changes keyboard solos originally done by Moore or Sherinian, he butchers them.
It always bothers me how he never plays the Take The Time solo the way Kevin wrote and recorded it (my all-time favorite keyboard solo). That solo is flawless; I really wish he would just play it the way it is on the record. He's got plenty of other solos to make his own - but don't fuck with Take The Time!
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I felt it a bit surreal reading that article, especially in this section:
. It's not the timing of the drum machine that makes it sound unpleasant and robotic to most of us, it's the dynamics that give it the awful sound.
I must wonder, is he unaware of what a lot of people say about his drumming?
It's both to me. Rigidly attached to a grid AND 0% dynamics in a drum machine BOTH sound bad.
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I felt it a bit surreal reading that article, especially in this section:
. It's not the timing of the drum machine that makes it sound unpleasant and robotic to most of us, it's the dynamics that give it the awful sound.
I must wonder, is he unaware of what a lot of people say about his drumming?
And playing to a click track can't improve human feeling, fluidity, etc.
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What exactly is the criticism about being rigidly attached to a grid? Do you even know what Mike's The Grid is? It is a heuristic tool that allows you to see the most number of possible combinations. Instead of limiting you, it actually makes you realize that combinations you never imagined are possible.
The Grid is a teaching tool. Those who keep on insisting feel are most likely people who have never experienced teaching or are closet elitists who think drumming can not be taught.
And zero% dynamics? We're really into hyperbole.
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When Kotowboy said "grid", I don't think he meant The Grid. I think he referred to the click track and MM's extreme care to make his hits be exactly on time.
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When Kotowboy said "grid", I don't think he meant The Grid. I think he referred to the click track and MM's extreme care to make his hits be exactly on time.
Yes and tech metal bands. That horrible super gated guitar sound they all have where all you hear is the attack of the note then a sudden silence. :puke:
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Yes and tech metal bands. That horrible super gated guitar sound they all have where all you hear is the attack of the note then a sudden silence. :puke:
I remember first hearing that in Dark Eternal Night, and I suddenly wanted a noise gate pedal
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It's nowhere near as bad on TDOE.
I'm talking about tech bands that gate their guitar so hard that all you get is the middle of the note. It's cut off the attack and decay altogether.
It's awful & I hate it.
My friend's band entire set is controlled by computer. They all play to a click - it has backing tracks that line up ( like DT do ) and it also changes the guitar tuning between songs so they never have to
change guitars or tune up between songs. HOW . BORING. It leaves precisely 0% room for error or improvisation. Singer can't even sing anything different as he has to harmonise
with what is on the backing track.
At that point it's not a gig anymore - it's an exam.
Fuck. That.
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My friend's band entire set is controlled by computer. They all play to a click - it has backing tracks that line up ( like DT do ) and it also changes the guitar tuning between songs so they never have to
change guitars or tune up between songs. HOW . BORING. It leaves precisely 0% room for error or improvisation. Singer can't even sing anything different as he has to harmonise
with what is on the backing track.
That happens when you record music that relies heavily on backing tracks. There's really no other way to get it done. Like 90% of metal bands do this nowadays.
Like it or not, it ain't leaving anytime soon unfortunately, because having everything preprogrammed makes things a lot easier for bands.
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I apologize for my reaction on "the grid" comment.
I think the decision to play to a click is not really about the layering of backing tracks. I think there was a conscious decision by the band to give their concert-goers a full theatrical experience with top-notch audio-visuals that are synced to the music, which is why they decided to play to a click in their shows.
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A new Dreamtheaterclub vid of Mike showing his kit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu792DZtc_U
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A new Dreamtheaterclub vid of Mike showing his kit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu792DZtc_U
Love this!
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He designed the kit before he could even play it....
ok.
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A new Dreamtheaterclub vid of Mike showing his kit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu792DZtc_U
Do you know when/where that was actually filmed? Based on the plane in the backstage area, I think it might have been the Reno show in November.
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A new Dreamtheaterclub vid of Mike showing his kit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu792DZtc_U
Do you know when/where that was actually filmed? Based on the plane in the backstage area, I think it might have been the Reno show in November.
There was a very similar video with MM teaching Lzzy Hale to play drums. Probably from the same day? Would have to compare Mike's cloths from both videos to know, but I'm too lazy to do it right now ;D
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A new Dreamtheaterclub vid of Mike showing his kit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu792DZtc_U
Do you know when/where that was actually filmed? Based on the plane in the backstage area, I think it might have been the Reno show in November.
I think noxon would know. He's running the website?
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Cool! A bit annoyed by the camera focus though. Funny seeing his tech/butler cleaning everything afterwards.
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I have no idea where it was filmed - it was delievered to me from the management (along with all the other DT.club videos we've released thus far).
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Oh, I thought it's a fan vid.
He designed the kit before he could even play it....
ok.
Of course, it's a unique kit design so there's no way he could play something like it before it was designed.
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That seems stupid, backwards and inefficient to me.
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How do you do an innovative design if you don't conceptualize it first?
Mangini has an idea of how he wants to orchestrate the drums. He plays open-handed. Then he wants to shift from light to dark-sounding cymbals to mark changes in keys (usually shifting stanza, then chorus). He also wants to match runs up and down the scale of the other melodic instrument one tom per note, which you can not do in the traditional setup of toms arranged clockwise because the arms would cross. So to be able to hit one tom per note, the toms go down the scale and are arranged RLRLRLRL. Are there kits with these features that he can play on before he designed his own kit? No.
Stupid? God forbid somebody designs a new kit based on how he imagined he would like his drum playing to sound like.
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WE HATE PROGRESS, INNOVATION, AND CHANGE.
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Stupid question: Would he essentially have to relearn the songs if he modified the kit in any way? Especially the tom placement seems efficient for what he wants to do with it, but it strikes me he would struggle to play the songs on any other kit.
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It probably depends on the song, I'm sure, but there are lots of drum clinic videos out there where he is playing on a more "standard" kit and doing just fine with the DT songs.
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Total non sequitur here, but I was watching Star Trek TNG's "Schisms" the other day, and there was an exchange that totally reminded me of this thread:
DATA: Geordi, may I make a personal inquiry? It concerns my poetry reading.
LAFORGE: Sure, Data. What is it?
DATA: I noticed that many spectators seemed distracted during my presentation. Was my poetry uninteresting?
LAFORGE: Well, it was very well constructed, a virtual tribute to form.
DATA: Thank you. And?
LAFORGE: And what?
DATA: Did it evoke an emotional response?
LAFORGE: Well.
DATA: Your hesitation suggests you are trying to protect my feelings. However, since I have none, I would prefer you to be honest. An artist's growth depends upon accurate feedback.
LAFORGE: Well, your poems were clever, Data, and your Haiku was clever, and your sonnet was clever. But did it evoke an emotional response? To be honest, no, I don't think so.
DATA: Then I did not succeed in my efforts.
LAFORGE: No, it's not that you didn't succeed. You accomplished a lot, but, if you want to touch people, don't concentrate so much on rhyme and metre. Think more about what you want to say instead of how you're saying it.
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Total non sequitur here, but I was watching Star Trek TNG's "Schisms" the other day, and there was an exchange that totally reminded me of this thread:
DATA: Geordi, may I make a personal inquiry? It concerns my poetry reading.
LAFORGE: Sure, Data. What is it?
DATA: I noticed that many spectators seemed distracted during my presentation. Was my poetry uninteresting?
LAFORGE: Well, it was very well constructed, a virtual tribute to form.
DATA: Thank you. And?
LAFORGE: And what?
DATA: Did it evoke an emotional response?
LAFORGE: Well.
DATA: Your hesitation suggests you are trying to protect my feelings. However, since I have none, I would prefer you to be honest. An artist's growth depends upon accurate feedback.
LAFORGE: Well, your poems were clever, Data, and your Haiku was clever, and your sonnet was clever. But did it evoke an emotional response? To be honest, no, I don't think so.
DATA: Then I did not succeed in my efforts.
LAFORGE: No, it's not that you didn't succeed. You accomplished a lot, but, if you want to touch people, don't concentrate so much on rhyme and metre. Think more about what you want to say instead of how you're saying it.
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
Poor Mangini...
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Total non sequitur here, but I was watching Star Trek TNG's "Schisms" the other day, and there was an exchange that totally reminded me of this thread:
DATA: Geordi, may I make a personal inquiry? It concerns my poetry reading.
LAFORGE: Sure, Data. What is it?
DATA: I noticed that many spectators seemed distracted during my presentation. Was my poetry uninteresting?
LAFORGE: Well, it was very well constructed, a virtual tribute to form.
DATA: Thank you. And?
LAFORGE: And what?
DATA: Did it evoke an emotional response?
LAFORGE: Well.
DATA: Your hesitation suggests you are trying to protect my feelings. However, since I have none, I would prefer you to be honest. An artist's growth depends upon accurate feedback.
LAFORGE: Well, your poems were clever, Data, and your Haiku was clever, and your sonnet was clever. But did it evoke an emotional response? To be honest, no, I don't think so.
DATA: Then I did not succeed in my efforts.
LAFORGE: No, it's not that you didn't succeed. You accomplished a lot, but, if you want to touch people, don't concentrate so much on rhyme and metre. Think more about what you want to say instead of how you're saying it.
Ode to Spot made me weep like a baby.
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Yea I'm not a huge Mangini fan myself but I don't see the problem with his kit. Not sure how he would play a kit before designing it.
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https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theater-has-no-plans-to-reunite-with-mike-portnoy/
For those speculating about Mike Portnoy returning if Mangini were to leave.
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https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theater-has-no-plans-to-reunite-with-mike-portnoy/
For those speculating about Mike Portnoy returning if Mangini were to leave.
A fan asked if DT would have Portnoy play on some anniversary event like Sherinian & Dominici. 22:31 is where Petrucci & Ruddess answer the question. Nothing at all to do with Portnoy rejoining if Mangini left.
Edit: The article quotes a 2016 Metal Rules interview with Portnoy. I'm surprised that site is still doing interviews. I thought they was pretty much dead because they let their message board to be overrun by bots. Very sad.
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https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theater-has-no-plans-to-reunite-with-mike-portnoy/
For those speculating about Mike Portnoy returning if Mangini were to leave.
This is not really news, the DT guys have all been very clear about not wanting MP in DT anymore :lol
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It's like 2011 all over again.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmw9mtSjB0A
New Interview
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Good interview
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Really cool interview! It seems the mood within the band is still great, although he admits clearly that he's still searching for his space in the band, as a composer/arranger. I hope on DT14 he feels satisfied, he really deserves it (and personally I would like to hear much more of his musical ideas :tup).
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The interviewer's voice is just like Windows 95 text-to-speech voice. :lol
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Really cool interview! It seems the mood within the band is still great, although he admits clearly that he's still searching for his space in the band, as a composer/arranger. I hope on DT14 he feels satisfied, he really deserves it (and personally I would like to hear much more of his musical ideas :tup).
Yes, can't wait to see how much involved he is on DT14, as you say, he really deserves it and his contributions would be very refreshing for the band.
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The interviewer's voice is just like Windows 95 text-to-speech voice. :lol
The intonation is Finnish is pretty monotonous (stress always on the first syllable), and that bleeds into the accent as well. :P
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The interviewer's voice is just like Windows 95 text-to-speech voice. :lol
:lol
I love how his answers were substantively similar to the answers in the orig interview in this thread but it's not interpreted negatively.
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Yeah Mangini even said that it was the best version of that explanation he'd given.
Maybe he thought that previous interview didn't come across well.
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Yeah Mangini even said that it was the best version of that explanation he'd given.
Maybe he thought that previous interview didn't come across well.
Yeah - he was clearly more focused on the "earning the right" , how much he likes the guys etc... and less on the disappointment of not having the degree of input he might like. I think the response to the other interview is something he was very much aware of as he spoke.
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The interviewer's voice is just like Windows 95 text-to-speech voice. :lol
:lol
I love how his answers were substantively similar to the answers in the orig interview in this thread but it's not interpreted negatively.
I actually thought he was a bit walking on eggshells in that video. That is, he was very keen on getting across that he's enjoying himself at DT, but at the same time that what he said in the OP interview is just as well true.
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Nice he recognizes the brilliance of some of MP's parts.
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Why wouldn't he?
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Yeah, he has done that from day one.
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It doesn't even matter how he feels about them (even though I have no reason to assume he doesn't mean what he said). Saying anything but positive would be PR suicide. Blabbermouth would create a new site just because of it.
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Mangini : " I love what Mike Portnoy plays on his albums. The parts are PERFECT and there are signature fills that absolutely NEED to be there.. But i've been in the band for 8 years now
and I finally feel comfortable putting my own stamp on a few of the songs... "
BLABBERMOUTH
MIKE MANGINI SAYS HIS DRUM PARTS ARE BETTER THAN PORTNOYS DRUM PARTS
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https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-explains-his-limited-role-in-dream-theater-songwriting-process/
Pretty damn close, Kotow :lol
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https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-explains-his-limited-role-in-dream-theater-songwriting-process/
Pretty damn close, Kotow :lol
Wow, that's typical Blabbermouth right there! :lol
Seriously, I really hope they include A LOT of Mike's ideas on the next album, the guy has lots of good things to offer to the table, and his musical chemistry with JR, and, specially, JM is amazing.
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Good interview. Mangini sounds optimistic about eventually having a more substantial role in the song-writing process.
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I have a question as I am ignorant and too lazy to look it up, does Mangini have a history of songwriting? I mean, he wants his ideas to be considered but has he acted in that capacity before?
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You know, I have wondered the exact same thing. After all, there is not a single solo album of his. MP, Marco Minnemann, Thomas Lang, they all have put out stuff on the side. MM has put out instructional stuff, but it's odd that someone who has mostly been told what exactly to play throughout his career has not created a project of his own that would showcase his own ideas.
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Maybe he wants to be able to be in the writing process just putting his input to certain drum beats and fills. He makes a suggestion and the band works around that. I also think he wants more control of his drum sound. I totally understand that.
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Apparently he is writting a solo album now.
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Maybe he wants to be able to be in the writing process just putting his input to certain drum beats and fills. He makes a suggestion and the band works around that. I also think he wants more control of his drum sound. I totally understand that.
That's kinda what I gathered as well. He has said in interviews his biggest mark in terms of helping to write so far in DT is IT. And it sounded like he basically was apart of coming up with the flow of the arrangement, maybe coming up with patterns and beat ideas that helped drive the creativity of the writing.
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You know, I have wondered the exact same thing. After all, there is not a single solo album of his. MP, Marco Minnemann, Thomas Lang, they all have put out stuff on the side. MM has put out instructional stuff, but it's odd that someone who has mostly been told what exactly to play throughout his career has not created a project of his own that would showcase his own ideas.
I don't recall MP releasing a solo album or something similar. He's always released tons of albums with different bands, but most (if not all) of them have included other main songwriters (Kotzen, Morse, Petrucci, Rudess, etc.)
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Apparently he is writting a solo album now.
He would be a crazy shredder. If you've seen that vid of him tapping a pick on a body of a guitar. His hands are crazy fast.
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You know, I have wondered the exact same thing. After all, there is not a single solo album of his. MP, Marco Minnemann, Thomas Lang, they all have put out stuff on the side. MM has put out instructional stuff, but it's odd that someone who has mostly been told what exactly to play throughout his career has not created a project of his own that would showcase his own ideas.
I don't recall MP releasing a solo album or something similar. He's always released tons of albums with different bands, but most (if not all) of them have included other main songwriters (Kotzen, Morse, Petrucci, Rudess, etc.)
Note how I ended that sentence with "stuff on the side" :D. True, MP never had a true solo album in that sense, but he for sure stretched his creative juices outside of his main band.
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Well, lets look at i this way - it makes sense why he wasn't involved in ADTOE - he even seemed to completely understand that one. On the self titled album, he had involvement, and on TA he didn't, but then again it JMX and JLB were also kept out of the writing because of the nature of that album. I think, if the next one is written in a more traditional DT way, that MM will be involved to the extent that everyone else is involved. I hope so at least.
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Well, lets look at i this way - it makes sense why he wasn't involved in ADTOE
I see this......a lot.......and I don't get it. The album wasn't written before he joined. They could have easily written it as a band.
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Well, lets look at i this way - it makes sense why he wasn't involved in ADTOE
I see this......a lot.......and I don't get it. The album wasn't written before he joined. They could have easily written it as a band.
Well, I say that because they were clearly trying to write a safe album. Something that the fans would hear and think, "yeah there's that classic DT sound". Maybe the band thought that if MM was involved, he may have influenced the music in another direction too early for the fans to embrace him. That, in addition with the fact that the guy had to learn tons of difficult material for the upcoming summer tour, I think MM already had his hands full. But maybe I'm wrong. It just seemed like MM completely understood why he wasn't involved.
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No, I get why MM was cool with it. I get why they may have done it. I don't get it why it's seen as the obvious and best decision.
It's presented as "Obviously DT couldn't write the album with MM....that would be horrible, so clearly the best idea was to exclude him". I just don't agree in the slightest with that.
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And MM said plenty of times around the time that he was very grateful to not be there and that he totally understood it...
..But he may have just been toeing the party line seeing as he had only just joined...
..also it jars with what he's been saying recently.
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No, I get why MM was cool with it. I get why they may have done it. I don't get it why it's seen as the obvious and best decision.
It's presented as "Obviously DT couldn't write the album with MM....that would be horrible, so clearly the best idea was to exclude him". I just don't agree in the slightest with that.
Even back when they first said it, I thought it was kinda weird. I mean, that doesn't feel like a good way to make him feel included when he had just joined the band. And I can't see what they had to lose from letting him be a part of the process.
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Probably so he could spend more time learning the back catalogue instead of being at the studio all day probably not contributing much.