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General => Movies and TV => Topic started by: Phoenix87x on January 08, 2016, 09:44:09 AM
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I've been watching this new netflix series making a murderer. Its really interesting.
Innocent guy serves 18 years for wrongful conviction of rape, which is overturned by DNA evidence. So a lot of heat comes down on the police department and soon after a bunch of evidence shows up at the guys property involving him in the murder of a missing girl.
Did he do it? I have no idea. Its very possible, but regardless, the whole overarching story has been pretty fascinating.
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/insertcoin/files/2016/01/making-a-murderer-1200x713.jpg)
Any body else watching this?
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My thought almost all the way through was that it was fake. The circumstances and the evidence seemed beyond fiction.
The cliffhangers were amazing as well.
I just finished filming a private documentary of a guy that spent 31 years for a crime he didn't commit, so the show was all the more sobering.
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Just started this documentary. First half of first episode has been quite well made.
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I wanted to watch that but then I read somewhere the prosecutors said it was fake so I didn't bother, I guess I should look more into it.
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I wanted to watch that but then I read somewhere the prosecutors said it was fake so I didn't bother, I guess I should look more into it.
What do you mean it was fake?
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Here (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/05/arts/television/ken-kratz-making-a-murderer.html)'s the article I read but I guess fake wasn't the right word to use here.
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I found the whole thing fascinating for several reasons. First, this is the first time that, regardless of guilt or not, Steven Avery's whole side has been able to be shown to a world (albeit how small) that just assumed he was guilty because every single news clip you saw just had him labeled as "murderer", "monster" and everything between. The whole Nancy Grace effect if you will. The whole tone of the series and the interviews were very one sided but I didn't mind that because of the fact that the popular opinion was on the other side as mentioned above. Second there were a lot of moments of actual court footage where I did not believe the prosecutions side. From Officer Colburn bumbling through his account of calling in the car, the memo from the testing lab of Lenk telling the woman "put her in his garage", to her brother maybe sorta possibly deleting voicemail messages, I just wasn't convinced.
The other big thing is that there was no other suspects for us to compare Avery against to even consider if he really did it or not. He may have done it for all I know but I know he didn't do it in the fantasy story the prosecution told the press which they sort of changed halfway through the trial anyways (slit her throat in the bed to shooting her).
I wanted to watch that but then I read somewhere the prosecutors said it was fake so I didn't bother, I guess I should look more into it.
There's actually a few instances on actual court video where they got caught with their pants down and by they I mean the people they brought to the stand.
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Here (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/05/arts/television/ken-kratz-making-a-murderer.html)'s the article I read but I guess fake wasn't the right word to use here.
Yea fake is the completely wrong word to describe it. That article is talking about things that are left out to skew the impression of the case. Fake implies none of it was real and that everything was staged, like the footage being not used from live recordings etc.. you know like Cloverfield or Blair Witch Project.
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As far as Steve's innocence goes, I go back and forth. My gut says not to take things at face value, but I am still not sure what really happened.
But one thing I do feel strongly about is that Brendan got royally screwed. The kid has a learning disability and the cops sweated him down for 3 hours coercing that wildly fabricated confession. Those tactics can trip up even an adult with full mental capacity and will definitely bury a scared 16 year old with a learning disability.
In avery's trial they disregard most of bredan's story. Chained to the bed and throat slit? Yeah right, there's no blood anywhere in the bedroom and no markings on the bed posts, and most importantly NONE of brendan's DNA anywhere.
But then cut to brendan's trial and then they act like all that happened. There was no physical evidence what so ever to prove his story. All this coerced material that had no proof was set in stone by the court. I was shocked. Its really a shame.
and this show really showed me the difference between a decent lawyer and a shitty one. Bredan's own court appointed lawyer, actually allowed him to talk with police alone and set him up with the guy that coerced him to make the drawings and false confession which buried him. Then I look at how skillful Steve's well paid lawyers do. Its night and day.
Its so scary that you can basically just make something up and you can be crucified for it, despite how implausible. And god help you if you have a mental disability and aren't smart enough protect yourself from the issues involved with being arrested and going to trial.
This was a very eye opening documentary
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Loved this show. As far as my opinion, I'm about 85% certain that Steven is innocent, and 100% certain of Brendan's innocence. It's too bad the whole investigation focused solely on Steven instead of even considering other suspects. If any of you have read theories online, the "German man" theory is fascinating, and it's mind boggling that it was completely ignored even after it was reported to police. It's negligence like that that is most telling about this story and the "system", and quite sad that one man, even though he wasn't the most upstanding citizen to begin with, takes the brunt for it (if you assume he is innocent).
For anyone else looking for more documentaries like this I would strongly recommend tracking down the Paradise Lost documentaries by HBO, and then the follow up documentary West of Memphis on Netflix.
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I'm only episode 6 now. I definitely get the feeling it is a really one sided documentary, so I'm trying to reserve judgement. Once I watch the whole documentary, I'll do some of my own digging and research to try to understand the other side.
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I haven't seen this, but I live in central WI and worked at a news station during this whole deal. It was odd then and nothing has changed.
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I haven't seen this, but I live in central WI and worked at a news station during this whole deal. It was odd then and nothing has changed.
Yep, I'm from Green Bay. This was huge. I have friends who knew Theresa Halbach and are very upset about this documentary. I haven't seen it yet but I heard it's very one sided.
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Just started watching and am three episodes in. I can already tell it's one-sided (in his favor), but even with it, Avery still comes off like a total POS. I thought that before the revelation came from the nephew in Ep 3. Doing 18 years, however, for a crime you did not commit...man, I cannot even imagine.
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Avery is human garbage. I don't feel sorry for him at all.
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Saw this a few weeks ago. The false rape imprisonment turns your stomach. Something like that could happen to almost anyone, and has to many innocent people in the past for various uncommitted crimes.
The murder: was disappointed to find out that sooooo much damning evidence was left out of the documentary. Or falsely slanted (the 'cat' incident for one). Then again, the whole Manitowoc County legal system reeks badly. I will let any future viewers to google for themselves, without going into the specifics or spoiling it further.
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I managed to plow through this in three evenings. I enjoyed it a lot, despite it being pretty one-sided. I really have no idea if he is guilty or not.
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Saw this a few weeks ago. The false rape imprisonment turns your stomach. Something like that could happen to almost anyone, and has to many innocent people in the past for various uncommitted crimes.
The murder: was disappointed to find out that sooooo much damning evidence was left out of the documentary. Or falsely slanted (the 'cat' incident for one). Then again, the whole Manitowoc County legal system reeks badly. I will let any future viewers to google for themselves, without going into the specifics or spoiling it further.
I tried tonight to research what evidence was left out, and I don't remember what the "cat" incident is in reference to. The only evidence I heard that sounded compelling was the DNA/sweat on outside of vehicle. The reference to her calling him a "creepy guy" seems inevitable since no one argues that he isn't creepy or the kind of person you would want for your neighbor. Or the fact that he called her three times or asked for her doesn't seem that compelling, unless I am missing something.
Is there a link to the list of other stuff left out?
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Avery is human garbage. I don't feel sorry for him at all.
I don't think it matters whether you think he's human garbage or if he really is human garbage (maybe you know the guy personally and can vouch for it). For me after watching the series, it really seemed bizarre how everything was handled. I don't have an opinion one way or another whether Avery committed the crime. I like everyone else feel for the nephew, kid got sentenced to life and looks like he has no clue what's going on.
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There are different little bits and pieces of omissions in each article.
Best read is the 21 page Dassey and Michael O'Kelly transcript.
https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/making-murderer-steven-avery-guilty-deeper-netflix-series/story?id=36420677
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/making-a-murderer-manitowoc-county-852052
best below
https://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/is-steven-avery-guilty-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php
the 21 page transcript from may 2006 (the red ‘full transcript’ link in the above story)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ej65jscjwgcpqtc/Transcript%20-%2005-12-2006%20-%20Dassey%20and%20O'Kelly.pdf?dl=0
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/steven-avery-making-a-murderer_us_56992180e4b0ce4964243136
https://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/why-most-people-thought-steven-avery-was-guilty-before-netflix-released-making-a-murderer.php
https://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2016/01/making_a_murderer_is_so_emotionally_manipulative_it_left_me_angry.html
https://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/evidenceagainstavery.html
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thanks DragonAttack
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Avery is human garbage. I don't feel sorry for him at all.
I don't think it matters whether you think he's human garbage or if he really is human garbage (maybe you know the guy personally and can vouch for it). For me after watching the series, it really seemed bizarre how everything was handled. I don't have an opinion one way or another whether Avery committed the crime. I like everyone else feel for the nephew, kid got sentenced to life and looks like he has no clue what's going on.
I am not saying he was faking his slowness by any means, but did anyone else find it curious how quick and deliberate his answers were when he was on the stand? Even if you say he was coached by the defense team for their preprepared questions, I still think he answered pretty quickly when cross-examined. Pretty big difference to when he was questioned by the cops or when talking to his mom on the phone (conversations I am sure he was told were being recorded).
I guess the way I see it, while many seem to think the way the confession was obtained was shady and thus invalid, I don't. Don't get me wrong, the way the cops questioned him was definitely shady, but that doesn't make what he said untrue. This whole "I told them what I thought they wanted to hear"...I don't buy it, especially since if he is so dumb and stupid, how would he know to say exactly what the cops want to hear?
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Don't you remember when after he gave them the "confession" and the other cop came in to arrest him he said something to effect of "OK am I only going in for one night? I have school tomorrow." ? The kid clearly just wanted to get out of there and had absolutely no idea about the consequences of what were coming out of his mouth.
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Right, but that doesn't mean what he said didn't have some or a lot of truth in it. It is very possible that what he said was true, but that he wasn't smart enough to realize how wrong it was and what the consequences would be.
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I'll just have to disagree. I think the tactics used by the interrogators were dirty and manipulative. In Brandon's case my best guess is they realized how slow he was and took complete advantage of it.
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I agree with that, which is kind of what I said before. I think it is very possible that the Brendan was telling some truth, even though the cops used very shady tactics. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive.
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Without a doubt, the cops coerced Brendan into saying what they wanted him to say. Every time he said something they replied with "you're lying, Brendan, what really happened?" "We know there's more, tell us about the gun," etc. Dont you think he would have mentioned something about shooting Theresa the first 15 times he told the story? The cops had this story fabricated, and they steered someone who was completely vulnerable into saying what they wanted to hear. Brendan has the intelligence of what, a 5, 6 year old? If I went to my niece and used the same tactics, and promising her that everything would be okay (as the police did to Brendan), then I could get her to admit to anything as well.
I also think it is convenient that the whole story that was fabricated to pin down Brendan was essentially thrown out the window for Steven's trial. It's like they were sentenced for two completly different acts.
As far as my opinion, I believe they are innocent. That doesn't make Steven a better person, because he is still a sketchy person, but he is not a murderer, nor is he a genius, which is what he would have to be to do this murder as he was convicted of doing it (shooting her in his garage, or even slitting her throat in the bedroom) without leaving ANY sort of evidence behind. Come on. Even in the slightest chance that he is guilty, the way Manitowoc County handled this case, everything from the investigation to the trial, I don't think he should be in jail. Everything about it was handled like a preschool treasure hunt. There are so many loose ends, and even if you believe the prosecution evidence that was left out of the documentary was damning, the defense evidence left out was even more compelling, in my opinion. Will all of that, there is no way there is enough evidence and lack of reasonable doubt to keep Avery and Brendan behind bars. Give them a fair trail, which I realize is impossible now, when no one wants to admit they fucked up so bad when there are dozens of "good American citizens" whose lives and reputations would be at stake in the fallout.
Also: Fuck Ken Kratz. He's Vernon Dursley's shithead brother.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/steven-averys-lawyer-talks-dateline-first-tv-interview-taking-case-n506221
If you can pull yourselves away from the new album, it's at 10pm EST
( https://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/dateline-nbc/tv-listings/100110/ )
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I found the whole thing fascinating. Not being from the US, I couldn't believe the pre-trial press conference where a whole narrative was presented as if it were indisputable fact. There's no way that would be allowed to happen here in the UK/Ireland.
There's a good sub reddit with plenty of web sleuths weighing in with theories of their own:
https://www.reddit.com/r/makingamurderer
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What I do not understand is how Avery can be guilty for the murder, but not guilty for burning/mutilating a corpse. Correct me if I got that wrong.
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What I do not understand is how Avery can be guilty for the murder, but not guilty for burning/mutilating a corpse. Correct me if I got that wrong.
That's often a jury's way of saying they aren't really sure if he's guilty, so hey, we'll find him guilty of some things and not guilty of others. I am sure that is comforting when one of the charges they find you guilty of puts you in prison for life.
It's also why prosecutors often pile on as many charges as possible, figuring that all they need is one or two to stick to put someone in prison for a long time.
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Anyone watch NBC's 'Dateline' last night? Interviews with most that were involved. I knew that Brendan Dassey had his conviction overturned last August, but did not know he was still in jail. His case was heard in a US Court of Appeals this week, with a ruling in the next 3-6 months. And Avery has yet another legal team, with appeals in the works.
The episode last night was not as hard hitting as we had hoped for. At least it shed some light on some of Avery's actions before the murder that the very slanted documentary never mentioned.
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Can't say one way or the other about Avery, but I will say that I think that Brendan got screwed over royally.
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Anybody watch Season 2 yet. Just started watching the new episodes
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Get your NoDoze and rubber bricks ready.
We watched it about two weeks ago. It is even more slanted than the first one. Kathleen Zelner, Avery's 'witchy' savior (she dressed the part a couple of times) becomes the main focus, and it generally leads to sheer boredom and 'what are you smoking?' segments.
Read the reviews of it before watching the last 8 episodes, which was helpful, knowing that it would be even more slanted filler with a ton of BS thrown about. 90% of the really damning evidence wasn't mentioned or was scoffed at.
btw....'sweet' little Brendan's character name in a video game: niger4life.
The creepy: Brendan's biological father seemed to be fairly decent. Maybe because he divorced and got out of the area. But he married Steven Avery's ex-wife, and so raised Avery's four kids and had to maintain contacts with those wunerful grandparents.
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btw....'sweet' little Brendan's character name in a video game: niger4life
Are you sure that wasn’t his brother? I mean the one who kept searching for child porn, torture porn, real death stuff online...
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Positive. If you freeze frame some of the trial transcripts, you'll be able to see it.
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https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/inside-a-making-a-murderer-lawsuit-hidden-dangers-true-crime-tv-1176395
We also read the Ken Kratz book last year. Yes, the man was a piece of sh*t in regards to women, which he admits to in the book. As mentioned in the above link, the producers of the show omitted so many details, and slanted the story so much, that....I hope they are found criminally liable.
The story in the original was fascinating enough. A shame that things like this can lead so many astray regarding facts.
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They say you can't judge a book by its cover, but after taking one look at Ken kratz, I knew he was a freak.