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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Pax on November 30, 2015, 05:43:07 PM
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Yay, another weird thread by me. While we're waiting for any damn update on DT13, let's chill a bit and speculate on this thread instead :p
However, it's pretty straightforward, not many things to speculate on. It's definitely not about speculating track lengths and lyrics lol, but about something like the following:
When will DT14 come out?
Will it be a regular DT album, or a concept?
If concept, will it be closely related to The Astonishing?
And... Will it happen at all? :/
I'm thinking it will happen for sure, will come in 2018 (or maybe even late 2017 if DT gets inspired by the success of the upcoming album)
I'm also nearly certain it will be a regular DT album, with lots of regular 10-15 min songs (haven't done those since ADTOE)
What do you guys think?
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This is just silly, even for DTF. But despite coming in here to lock the thread on site, your questions are at least almost in the same zip code as "reasonable."
When will DT14 come out?
Most likely, roughly 2 years after The Astonishing, since that is the timeframe the band has been on for quite some time now.
Will it be a regular DT album, or a concept?
Highly unlikely that it would be a concept album. The guys in the band are smart enough to know that concept albums need to be "special," and not something you do too frequently.
If concept, will it be closely related to The Astonishing?
No.
And... Will it happen at all? :/
Most likely. We haven't gotten any information that the band is thinking about hanging it up in the foreseeable future.
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Lord Nafaryus
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Octavariopolis Part 5: 8
But my serious answer would be the same as Mister Bosk.
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For this thread I vote:
1. Instant Classic
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Will it be a regular DT album, or a concept?
If concept, will it be closely related to The Astonishing?
With the amount of world-building they're doing at the moment with The Astonishing, I don't think it's out of the question to keep building onto that 'world' but we haven't even got the official album cover, so it's a little too soon for that yet! But if the album ends up great? Why not :metal
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DT14 speculation? really?? This is what we've come to?
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Meh, I'm more hyped about DT17 myself :P
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DT14 will be country music album
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Are we already this bored with speculating about DT13 that we're already moving on to DT14? :lol
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What about DT19? :rollin
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I mean, the clock is ticking...
Yeah I think it'll come out, fortunately the band seems intent on keeping it going for at least a few years.
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The astonishin tour will be taking place for a longer period of time than previous tours and when it's over the band will take a long break. They will meet up again for recording DT14 in december of 2017.
The first version of DT14 will be scrapped after mixing (and will become a highly sought after collectors item).
The second attempt at DT14 will be recorded from july to september 2018 and be released in the end of february 2019.
It will be an all acoustic album featuring only songs shorter than 5 minutes.
You heard it here first....
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What about DT19? :rollin
August 2028 :justjen
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Featuring David Bowie & Justin Bieber
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Meh, I'm more hyped about DT17 myself :P
Same here!
I can almost guarantee that or one of the preceding 4 albums will be a concept album.
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Featuring David Bowie & Justin Bieber
As guests on one song... orher than that it is a three piece instrumental band with JP, JM and the newly returned MP
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For those who are triskaidekaphobic, The Astonishing 'is' DT14.
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What if.. Dream Theater were a Spanish mariachi band?
Oh sorry I'm at the wrong pointless thread, get them mixed up too often.
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Oh my God :lol Can we at least wait until TA is out?
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Clock Guy is speculating about DT24
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Seriously?!! :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: This is getting ridiculous now.
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2014. It's wayyy ahead of its time.
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I'm really looking forward to DT2. I have a strong feeling it's going to be a landmark album.
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DT16 will be called Hexadecavarium. It will feature 16 songs, 2 octaves worth. The last song and title track will be 48 minutes. It will feature "everything that represents Dream Theater".
1. The Square Root of All Evil
2. The Answers Lie Within
3. These Doubled-Layered Walls
4. We Walk Beside Them
5. Panic Attacks
6. Never Enough (Never Enough)
7. The Twice Sacrificed Sons
8. Hexadecavarium
Release date will be 2021 (16 years after Octavarium) After The Astonishing (2016), DT14 (2017), DT15 (2019). The Last Song will feature a guest appearance from then 70 year old Charlie Dominici as the band slowly go backwards to the beginning of their career revisiting iconic melodies of the past. The magnum opus ends with the ending of 'Another Won'. Thus completing the full cycle and finishing the bands career on an emphatic note.
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DT16 will be called Hexadecavarium. It will feature 16 songs, 2 octaves worth. The last song and title track will be 48 minutes. It will feature "everything that represents Dream Theater".
1. The Square Root of All Evil
2. The Answers Lie Within
3. These Doubled-Layered Walls
4. We Walk Beside Them
5. Panic Attacks
6. Never Enough (Never Enough)
7. The Twice Sacrificed Sons
8. Hexadecavarium
Release date will be 2021 (16 years after Octavarium) After The Astonishing (2016), DT14 (2017), DT15 (2019). The Last Song will feature a guest appearance from then 70 year old Charlie Dominici as the band slowly go backwards to the beginning of their career revisiting iconic melodies of the past. The magnum opus ends with the ending of 'Another Won'. Thus completing the full cycle and finishing the bands career on an emphatic note.
:clap: Actually well thought out.
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...coming in here to lock the thread on site...
Trust your feelings. Use the Force Bosk.
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DT16 will be called Hexadecavarium. It will feature 16 songs, 2 octaves worth. The last song and title track will be 48 minutes. It will feature "everything that represents Dream Theater".
1. The Square Root of All Evil
2. The Answers Lie Within
3. These Doubled-Layered Walls
4. We Walk Beside Them
5. Panic Attacks
6. Never Enough (Never Enough)
7. The Twice Sacrificed Sons
8. Hexadecavarium
Release date will be 2021 (16 years after Octavarium) After The Astonishing (2016), DT14 (2017), DT15 (2019). The Last Song will feature a guest appearance from then 70 year old Charlie Dominici as the band slowly go backwards to the beginning of their career revisiting iconic melodies of the past. The magnum opus ends with the ending of 'Another Won'. Thus completing the full cycle and finishing the bands career on an emphatic note.
:clap: Actually well thought out.
Things can get pretty boring in work :lol
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Just the fact that 16 is 2x8 and 2021 is 16 years after Octavarium AND it still matches up with the
2 years per album cycle.
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I had the Astonishing follow up album to be out the year after only because last time there was a 3 year gap it was SDOIT, and then TOT was the year after :metal . I admit I will be bitterly disappointed if this doesn't happen
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DT16 will be called Hexadecavarium. It will feature 16 songs, 2 octaves worth. The last song and title track will be 48 minutes. It will feature "everything that represents Dream Theater".
1. The Square Root of All Evil
2. The Answers Lie Within
3. These Doubled-Layered Walls
4. We Walk Beside Them
5. Panic Attacks
6. Never Enough (Never Enough)
7. The Twice Sacrificed Sons
8. Hexadecavarium
Release date will be 2021 (16 years after Octavarium) After The Astonishing (2016), DT14 (2017), DT15 (2019). The Last Song will feature a guest appearance from then 70 year old Charlie Dominici as the band slowly go backwards to the beginning of their career revisiting iconic melodies of the past. The magnum opus ends with the ending of 'Another Won'. Thus completing the full cycle and finishing the bands career on an emphatic note.
But... those are only 8 songs :|
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DAMMIT, what a foolish mistake :P
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DAMMIT, what a foolish mistake :P
I have an idea how to correct it:
1. The Square Root of All Evil Part 1
2. The Square Root of All Evil Part 2
3. The Answers Lie Within Part 1
4. The Answers Lie Within Part 2
5. These Doubled-Layered Walls Part 1
6. These Doubled-Layered Walls Part 2
7. We Walk Beside Them Part 1
8. We Walk Beside Them Part 2
9. Panic Attacks Part 1
10. Panic Attacks Part 2
11. Never Enough (Never Enough) Part 1
12. Never Enough (Never Enough) Part 2
13. The Twice Sacrificed Sons Part 1
14. The Twice Sacrificed Sons Part 2
15. Hexadecavarium Part 1
16. Hexadecavarium Part 2
As it is easy to notice, every song in itself will be so mindblowingly awesome that anybody has to listen to the song separately in 2 sessions, because otherwise the listener`s head would explode after hearing one song in its complex whole. To give support to any possible victim, DT/Roadrunner (because RR demanded it) already split each song in 2 tracks/parts for the safety of us all.
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Just the fact that 16 is 2x8 and 2021 is 16 years after Octavarium AND it still matches up with the
2 years per album cycle.
I guess it wouldn't be as fascinating to you if you were a mathematician lol
But I won't kill your fascination, check this out: 24 is 8x3 and 2037 is 24 years after 8varium, and it would be DT 24 that year, so it would still follow the cycle :O
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Just the fact that 16 is 2x8 and 2021 is 16 years after Octavarium AND it still matches up with the
2 years per album cycle.
I guess it wouldn't be as fascinating to you if you were a mathematician lol
But I won't kill your fascination, check this out: 24 is 8x3 and 2037 is 24 years after 8varium, and it would be DT 24 that year, so it would still follow the cycle :O
:panicattack:
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I'm still waiting for the Six Lifts Never Gone in My Memory of Lost Degrees Are of Inner God Fake Trouble in the Lost New Millenium with Honey Mustard and BBQ McDonalds Playcenter Lick My Ass Turbulence album.
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I'm still waiting for the Six Lifts Never Gone in My Memory of Lost Degrees Are of Inner God Fake Trouble in the Lost New Millenium with Honey Mustard and BBQ McDonalds Playcenter Lick My Ass Turbulence album.
I belive that is planned for DT38
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Just the fact that 16 is 2x8 and 2021 is 16 years after Octavarium AND it still matches up with the
2 years per album cycle.
I guess it wouldn't be as fascinating to you if you were a mathematician lol
But I won't kill your fascination, check this out: 24 is 8x3 and 2037 is 24 years after 8varium, and it would be DT 24 that year, so it would still follow the cycle :O
:panicattack:
ICOSIKAITETRAGAVARIUM :lol sounds like a Finnish black metal album
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I'm still waiting for the Six Lifts Never Gone in My Memory of Lost Degrees Are of Inner God Fake Trouble in the Lost New Millenium with Honey Mustard and BBQ McDonalds Playcenter Lick My Ass Turbulence album.
Woah!!! I can't wait for that one either!!! ;D
I belive that is planned for DT38
Release Date: 2079 :lol
Good thing they're all Gods so they'll still be around . . . ;)
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How did this thread make it to the second page??? :omg:
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We're nuts like that :lol
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How did this thread make it to the second page??? :omg:
Especially since bosk already gave the only plausible answers already at the beginning ;D
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I'm still waiting for the Six Lifts Never Gone in My Memory of Lost Degrees Are of Inner God Fake Trouble in the Lost New Millenium with Honey Mustard and BBQ McDonalds Playcenter Lick My Ass Turbulence album.
Woah!!! I can't wait for that one either!!! ;D
I belive that is planned for DT38
Release Date: 2079 :lol
Good thing they're all Gods so they'll still be around . . . ;)
If they get to DT58 (2106) then we'll have to expect the Apocalypse... of nuggets :biggrin:
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I'm still waiting for the Six Lifts Never Gone in My Memory of Lost Degrees Are of Inner God Fake Trouble in the Lost New Millenium with Honey Mustard and BBQ McDonalds Playcenter Lick My Ass Turbulence album.
Woah!!! I can't wait for that one either!!! ;D
I belive that is planned for DT38
Release Date: 2079 :lol
Good thing they're all Gods so they'll still be around . . . ;)
If they get to DT58 (2106) then we'll have to expect the Apocalypse... of nuggets :biggrin:
:lol
btw now I know why they haven't released a Rush cover album . . . they're waiting for 2112! :lol :P
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That joke was so bad Bosk is probably gonna remove it when the sees it :lol
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I'm still waiting for the Six Lifts Never Gone in My Memory of Lost Degrees Are of Inner God Fake Trouble in the Lost New Millenium with Honey Mustard and BBQ McDonalds Playcenter Lick My Ass Turbulence album.
Woah!!! I can't wait for that one either!!! ;D
I belive that is planned for DT38
Release Date: 2079 :lol
Good thing they're all Gods so they'll still be around . . . ;)
If they get to DT58 (2106) then we'll have to expect the Apocalypse... of nuggets :biggrin:
:lol
btw now I know why they haven't released a Rush cover album . . . they're waiting for 2112! :lol :P
It would still perfectly fit the 2-year album cycle! A double album with one disc of Rush covers and another called the Astonishing Part 12! :rollin
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In 2030 - All the DT kids will carry on with the band and in 2045 will record the follow up to Octavarium.
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I want Train of Thought Pt.2, please!
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Updates? Anyone know if Chycki is mixing again? Really hoping for more epic pipe organ sounds from JR like on TA :corn
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Updates? Anyone know if Chycki is mixing again? Really hoping for more epic pipe organ sounds from JR like on TA :corn
Latest DT Fa(r)cebook post confirms Chycki.
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Updates? Anyone know if Chycki is mixing again? Really hoping for more epic pipe organ sounds from JR like on TA :corn
Latest DT Fa(r)cebook post confirms Chycki.
Thanks for the arbitrary suppositions Kotowboy!
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What about DT19?
Astonishing 2: The Quickening
Astonishing 2: Electric Boogaloo
The Astonishing Episode II: Attack of the NOMACs
Astonishing Pt. 2: Scenes from a Memory
ReAstonishing
The Astonishing Monster
Astonishing Un2 the Joy Fantastic
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Just the fact that 16 is 2x8 and 2021 is 16 years after Octavarium AND it still matches up with the
2 years per album cycle.
So what you're saying is... 16 is a multiple of 2?
:dangerwillrobinson:
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2058 - The Astonishing pt 6: The return of the son of the count and the dark master
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Maybe after how creative this record is shaping up to be, they should...
...take a 5 year break?
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It will be a slow-core record. :coolio
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It will be a slow-core record. :coolio
As long as it's not Medio_Core AMIRITE ?! :neverusethis:
* * * * MY PREDICTION * * * *
DT14 WILL....
come out sometime after DT13.
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It will be a slow-core record. :coolio
As long as it's not Medio_Core AMIRITE ?! :neverusethis:
* * * * MY PREDICTION * * * *
DT14 WILL....
come out sometime after DT13.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/x88e1awUi05by/giphy.gif)
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What about DT19?
Astonishing 2: The Quickening
Astonishing 2: Electric Boogaloo
The Astonishing Episode II: Attack of the NOMACs
Astonishing Pt. 2: Scenes from a Memory
ReAstonishing
The Astonishing Monster
Astonishing Un2 the Joy Fantastic
The NOMAC Awakens.
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I wasn't active on this forum for a few months, then I remembered how much I want to hear new material, so I returned :D
Is it the time to revive this thread? :o
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Well, given that they will tour until next March, I'd dare say yes.
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I think it isn't so silly now.
March is fairly close by and Jordan has given a few hints.
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I'm assuming that the next album will be more 'music' focused - as opposed to The Astonishing, which was more 'history' focused (although it's pretty obvious they experimented with many genres in The Astonishing as well). Like some other forum members have said, we might get that 'world music' album.
Either that, or they'll do a simpler, fun rock/metal album - kind of what they did for Systematic Chaos. I see many parallels between The Astonishing and Octavarium (both feature orchestra and shorter songs, both focus on some sort of concept), so maybe the band will approach the next album the same way they did in 2006.
Maybe a punk album with all songs in 4/4?
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Jordan has given a few hints.
Can anyone elaborate on this ? I havn't heard any hints from Jordan.
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Jordan has given a few hints.
Can anyone elaborate on this ? I havn't heard any hints from Jordan.
Whoops, just noted I mistook James.
It was James, sorry.
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My speculation: They will spend 42 years working on DT14. Finally, in 2058, they will create an album called When Images and Words Awaken and Fall Part 1: Scenes From the Six Degrees of Thoughtful Trains of Octavarium, Systematically Clouding the Dramatic Dreaming About Astonishing Things.
Notice how part 2 of SDOIT is 42 minutes long... Hmm...
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With the success of TA, they will come back with a triple concept album. A total of 46 songs, 36 of them ballads :P
Seriously, I would not be surprised they take a long pause and come back in 2019 with their best album ever. Nothing is impossible.
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I would personally like to see an album where every member of the band contributes musically, at least a bit more than the usual Petrucci or Petrucci/Rudess composition in these last albums.
I do think it would help to have more diversity in their current style, which as of now is mostly dependent on Petrucci's ideas. Also, after three albums with Petrucci at the helm and after TA especially I wouldn't be surprised if he felt like stepping back a bit and try and let the others give more of a contribution.
It would be interesting to see another album done with their jam-style approach to songwriting with no preconceptions and see what comes up.
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I would personally like to see an album where every member of the band contributes musically, at least a bit more than the usual Petrucci or Petrucci/Rudess composition in these last albums.
I do think it would help to have more diversity in their current style, which as of now is mostly dependent on Petrucci's ideas. Also, after three albums with Petrucci at the helm and after TA especially I wouldn't be surprised if he felt like stepping back a bit and try and let the others give more of a contribution.
It would be interesting to see another album done with their jam-style approach to songwriting with no preconceptions and see what comes up.
I mean if they wanted to, they could just release a seventy minute jam and I'd still probably listen the fuck outta that.
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I sure hope they take their time to write really good compositions...
If they want to jam to see what happens that is fine as long as they then use that to craft good compositions around.
I don't want a record jammed together in a week and then released. I sure hope that was mostly MP who wanted that. Sure, it can lead to interresting results but also to things that should not have been released as is.
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After TA, I'm kinda expecting something heavier, in the vein of ToT.
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I don't think the whole album will be in the vein of ToT, but what I do believe is we'll hear some of the heaviest stuff DT has ever done.
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I don't think the whole album will be in the vein of ToT, but what I do believe is we'll hear some of the heaviest stuff DT has ever done.
They are aware of the critics of TA being soft. For sure the next one will be harder and really rocking.
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I want more swing-jazz and tango.
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I want more swing-jazz and tango.
Maybe the fabled World Music album is near...
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I'm thinking either an all acoustic album too or another full on heavy album to "make up" for The Astonishing being fairly laid back and chilled.
If they pull out another surprise like The Astonishing was - that would be awesome; something else nobody was expecting.
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They tend to alternate between heavy and not-so heavy, I expect them to continue that.
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Hoping for something in the vein of Fates Warning's Theories of Flight. What a great album!
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I hope they go full K-Pop
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They need to call it Door To Forever so that way DTF will have its own album!
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They need to call it Door To Forever so that way DTF will have its own album!
I approve of this idea. :tup
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They need to call it Door To Forever so that way DTF will have its own album!
And in the process create complete chaos as we get acronyms confused on a daily basis. Some people just want to watch the world burn. :lol
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DTF rates DTF, tne new poll in the dedicated section ;D
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I'll doubt we hear anything from DT camp before early 2018...
But when they eventually decide to do another album, i don't think they do anything remotely related to a concept album.
Just go to a studio and start jamming, and see what comes of it. Just have fun with it!
I'm hoping for something a little bit heavier too...
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No clue but considering the amount of effort that went into TA it seems logical they would go for a more spontaneous approach.
The amount of thought and planning for TA, from the story line to the map and just the sheer amount of man hours is staggering.
I'll put in a guess for a very heavy album. Just a gut instinct.
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No clue but considering the amount of effort that went into TA it seems logical they would go for a more spontaneous approach.
The amount of thought and planning for TA, from the story line to the map and just the sheer amount of man hours is staggering.
I'll put in a guess for a very heavy album. Just a gut instinct.
Wasn't there a rumour or talk from one of the band of them just recording a raw rock album ? Just recording the live band with not too many overdubs ?
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I'd like more atmospheric songs. Maybe in vein of The Bigger Picture (and few others sections from self-titled) and more spacey. Space rock album would be great :tup
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The Astonishing was a step in the right direction for production.
I'd like a nice open sound like " These Walls " again .
Octavarium has my favourite production for a DT album.
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Octavarium has my favourite production for a DT album.
Or anything really :corn
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No clue but considering the amount of effort that went into TA it seems logical they would go for a more spontaneous approach.
The amount of thought and planning for TA, from the story line to the map and just the sheer amount of man hours is staggering.
I'll put in a guess for a very heavy album. Just a gut instinct.
Wasn't there a rumour or talk from one of the band of them just recording a raw rock album ? Just recording the live band with not too many overdubs ?
I really like this idea! Just DT playing heavy stuff raw. They've already done all the work with a huge double concept album. They've earned the right to just put out something that is just fun.
There is still a lot of room to do something different. They literally could just put out a jam album where they just go into the studio and play, record then release. Their "just messin' around" playing is way better than almost any other band.
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No clue but considering the amount of effort that went into TA it seems logical they would go for a more spontaneous approach.
The amount of thought and planning for TA, from the story line to the map and just the sheer amount of man hours is staggering.
I'll put in a guess for a very heavy album. Just a gut instinct.
Wasn't there a rumour or talk from one of the band of them just recording a raw rock album ? Just recording the live band with not too many overdubs ?
That would be a really good thing, going back to a rawer production. I didn't like Chycki's pluginized production very much. I would love to hear a Shirley or a Northfield produced album again.
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Can't really see them doing that. They've been drifting further away from that direction for a long time, even more so in the last few years.
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After the let down of The Astonishing (I know it's an unpopular opinion but I hated it) I will be gladly waiting for another DT album. Maybe they will go the route of Train of Thought and make something really banging that they wrote in a week XD
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Do you guys who hate TA have to remind us how unpopular your opinion is everytime you name how much you hate it?
We understand, it's ok.
I sincerely hope they don't make another TOT.
Someone named a soft-heavy-soft pattern.
Well, SC-BC&SL-ADTOE-DT12 don't really follow this pattern.
WDADU, I&W and Awake are fairly heavy albums, and SFAM-SDOIT both have their doses of heaviness and soft.
I'm hoping for a more epic upbeat record, an exploration into the Power zone won't hurt anyone.
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I'm hoping for a more epic upbeat record, an exploration into the Power zone won't hurt anyone.
I could go for that. I like that we're hearing more major key anthems from them.
They don't have to go in any one direction on their next album. I wouldn't mind a great mix of dark-heavy, major-key-heavy, ballad, spacey, and epic all on one album.
I'd like to see a good mix of Bridges in the Sky, Lifting Shadows off a Dream, Looking Glass, Trial of Tears, This Dying Soul, The Silent Man, A New Beginning, Space Dye Vest, Our New World, These Walls, Octavarium--sound-wise.
My biggest complaint with their post-Kevin Moore albums has been their lack of sonic diversity/dynamism coupled with a lack of atmosphere. I think A Dramatic Turn of Events has probably been their best recent one in this regard. Obviously, TA is pretty diverse, but even though I love the album, I do agree that there's about three too many ballads on there, especially on Act 2. It could use a little MORE heavy. Also, it could have used just one full-length NOMAC track. I always wish Machine Chatter would keep going for about 4-5 minutes.
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I would personally like to see an album where every member of the band contributes musically, at least a bit more than the usual Petrucci or Petrucci/Rudess composition in these last albums the last album.
FTFY..
In DT12 only three song were composed by JP and/or JR.. And ADToE is more complex, since has several combinations, but there's definitely JM's and JLB's contributions, as well as MM's in DT12..
Otherwise, I agree with you..
I don't want a record jammed together in a week and then released. I sure hope that was mostly MP who wanted that. Sure, it can lead to interresting results but also to things that should not have been released as is.
Well, Train of Thought was composed that way and it's the best album they've done.. Of course that's my opinion, but in general is a well regarded album.. I don't think they should have that kind of limit.. They actually don't have it..
Otherwise, I also agree with what all are saying.. They should do something more heavy for the next album.. They've proved that, without Portnoy, they can still make heavy-prog songs/sections with great quality, like BiTS, Outcry, TEI, LDK, LN, MoB or TWS.. They'll only need to focus a bit more in that direction and that will be it..
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No clue but considering the amount of effort that went into TA it seems logical they would go for a more spontaneous approach.
The amount of thought and planning for TA, from the story line to the map and just the sheer amount of man hours is staggering.
I'll put in a guess for a very heavy album. Just a gut instinct.
Wasn't there a rumour or talk from one of the band of them just recording a raw rock album ? Just recording the live band with not too many overdubs ?
No. As far as I know it was just a bunch of random fans (mostly here on DTF) saying they want DT to do that.
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No clue but considering the amount of effort that went into TA it seems logical they would go for a more spontaneous approach.
The amount of thought and planning for TA, from the story line to the map and just the sheer amount of man hours is staggering.
I'll put in a guess for a very heavy album. Just a gut instinct.
Wasn't there a rumour or talk from one of the band of them just recording a raw rock album ? Just recording the live band with not too many overdubs ?
No. As far as I know it was just a bunch of random fans (mostly here on DTF) saying they want DT to do that.
I'm sure this is what he's talking about:
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/jordan-rudess-dream-theaters-next-album-will-be-very-different-from-the-astonishing/
He only said this about the next album:
"I think that whatever we decide to do next, which we haven't really decided, will be something obviously very different. And we'll invest our energies into that when it comes to that. Obviously, it's not gonna be another concept album — I just don't think that would be necessarily the best thing to do — but it will be some creative adventure that we'll feel like we want to put our energies behind."
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I don't see how "we're doing something different" in any possible way translates to "We're doing a raw album with few overdubs"
That particular theory was just a fan here on DTF talking a lot about it a few months or something ago.
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I would personally like to see an album where every member of the band contributes musically, at least a bit more than the usual Petrucci or Petrucci/Rudess composition in these last albums the last album.
FTFY..
In DT12 only three song were composed by JP and/or JR.. And ADToE is more complex, since has several combinations, but there's definitely JM's and JLB's contributions, as well as MM's in DT12..
Otherwise, I agree with you..
Well, in ADToE we know that Petrucci wrote the drums and we can hear some structural similarities to I&W. The only tracks where I feel a noticeable contribution from Myung and Labrie were Breaking All Illusions and BMUBMD, respectively, without considering bits and pieces elsewhere. Everything else felt like coming from JP/JR, not that it was bad or anything, just saying.
DT12 on the other hand surely features more of the other members, but it still was the first album where Mangini contributed and he said something in an interview about not wanting to influence too much the process, rather going with what others give him. Something similar happened in TA, to a degree, for the drums.
What I meant to say is that generally, music composed with less influence from the main composers comes out as more varied, in feel or structure. Songs like Illumination Theory or Breaking All Illusions are highlights because I can feel every member participating, while other songs from TA sometimes tend to force the rest of the band in preset roles, which worked in the context of a huge rock opera but it made certain parts sound a bit less suited to the individual performers, all IMHO. I also believe that if there's more sway towards the others there's less possibility for JP/JR to compose stuff that feels similar to what they've already done,, for example the prevalence of AOR-like riffs in the last two albums.
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^ That, plus JR said that just JP/JR writing was pretty much how it was anyway & that he was glad it could be properly credited (or something like that, I don't fully remember).
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What I meant to say is that generally, music composed with less influence from the main composers comes out as more varied, in feel or structure. Songs like Illumination Theory or Breaking All Illusions are highlights because I can feel every member participating, while other songs from TA sometimes tend to force the rest of the band in preset roles, which worked in the context of a huge rock opera but it made certain parts sound a bit less suited to the individual performers, all IMHO. I also believe that if there's more sway towards the others there's less possibility for JP/JR to compose stuff that feels similar to what they've already done,, for example the prevalence of AOR-like riffs in the last two albums.
Once again I agree.. Although it always depends on the composing skills from the rest of the band (in this case, MM, JM and JLB).. Talking about DT, yes, the contribution has been a key factor in creating some of the best music out there, since KM era, and most of all with MP in the band.. I know that since MM is in the band JP and JR have tended to compose almost everything, but I don't think that's precisely a bad thing.. I do think it'll be better if the rest of the guys have more participation, but since I liked very much what they did on TA, where the music is 100% JP/JR, I feel I'm ok with whoever that contributes in making the songs, as long as those two guys keep doing it..
PS: what's AOR?.. :justjen
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Once again I agree.. Although it always depends on the composing skills from the rest of the band (in this case, MM, JM and JLB).. Talking about DT, yes, the contribution has been a key factor in creating some of the best music out there, since KM era, and most of all with MP in the band.. I know that since MM is in the band JP and JR have tended to compose almost everything, but I don't think that's precisely a bad thing.. I do think it'll be better if the rest of the guys have more participation, but since I liked very much what they did on TA, where the music is 100% JP/JR, I feel I'm ok with whoever that contributes in making the songs, as long as those two guys keep doing it..
PS: what's AOR?.. :justjen
Yeah, JP and JR are absolutely the big guys and even on TA they managed to bring something that feels fresh, especially JR with his proggy parts. I feel they got some better chemistry in composing after MP's departure, somehow, so it was good that they did what they did and took credit for it, I just hope they can still push the boundaries like they were before and I believe having more people producing would help in this regard.
By AOR I mean Arena-oriented rock, something like Petrucci hitting those big chords with chorus effect on, stuff like The Looking Glass and Our New World or parts of Illumination Theory. While great, especially live, it sort of became its normal signature riffing style lately.
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Once again I agree.. Although it always depends on the composing skills from the rest of the band (in this case, MM, JM and JLB).. Talking about DT, yes, the contribution has been a key factor in creating some of the best music out there, since KM era, and most of all with MP in the band.. I know that since MM is in the band JP and JR have tended to compose almost everything, but I don't think that's precisely a bad thing.. I do think it'll be better if the rest of the guys have more participation, but since I liked very much what they did on TA, where the music is 100% JP/JR, I feel I'm ok with whoever that contributes in making the songs, as long as those two guys keep doing it..
PS: what's AOR?.. :justjen
Yeah, JP and JR are absolutely the big guys and even on TA they managed to bring something that feels fresh, especially JR with his proggy parts. I feel they got some better chemistry in composing after MP's departure, somehow, so it was good that they did what they did and took credit for it, I just hope they can still push the boundaries like they were before and I believe having more people producing would help in this regard.
By AOR I mean Arena-oriented rock, something like Petrucci hitting those big chords with chorus effect on, stuff like The Looking Glass and Our New World or parts of Illumination Theory. While great, especially live, it sort of became its normal signature riffing style lately.
Yeah, and ok.. I also think there's some things that need to be polished or at least slightly modified.. Besides, I've found another 'problem' in recent DT material.. The instrumental parts in these songs (especially some sections) sound almost the same: BAI, Outcry, TEI, BtV, IT, ANB and MoB.. I once found myself trying to recall mentally the entire instrumental of Outcry and being constantly blocked by a segment from IT that is practically identical.. And it's very likely to happen the same with the other songs..
Sadly, since MP left the band they haven't made any remarkable prog/crazy instrumental sections as they used to make..
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The entire ADTOE is filled with crazy instrumental sections.
BC&SL instrumentals are among the most panned things DT has ever done.
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The entire ADTOE is filled with crazy instrumental sections.
BC&SL instrumentals are among the most panned things DT has ever done.
Yes, but he sad remarkable. He also said that most of the instrumental sections from the last 3 albums blur together.
I can't strongly disagree with that.
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The lack of anything remarkable dates from before Portnoy left.
And it isn't like Portnoy wrote the crazy solos.
It's ok that he wrote EVERY SINGLE MELODY FROM EVERY SINGLE SONG but I don't think it went as far as to writing the solos.
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The lack of anything remarkable dates from before Portnoy left.
And it isn't like Portnoy wrote the crazy solos.
It's ok that he wrote EVERY SINGLE MELODY FROM EVERY SINGLE SONG but I don't think it went as far as to writing the solos.
Well yea, but he did write all of the bass parts.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ec/76/29/ec7629c574ba8536a3e358654f9dfe9e.jpg)
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Systematic Chaos Sessions: What really happened
Mike Portnoy: Hey John, How ya' doin?
John Myung: ...What the hell are you doing?
Mike Portnoy: Writing your bass parts, I got some awesome ideas for you, here, follow them, they're already written.
John Myung: But I already had an idea for this song...
Mike Portnoy: I'm sorry man, but we changed everything around it, so it had to be reworked, don't worry, I also play bass at NCinema, remember?
John Myung: So I just learn them and that's it? Record and go?
Mike Portnoy: That's right!, it's all set, cool to have a guy like me and John Petrucci around, right?
John Myung: Right...
BC&SL sessions, what really happened
John Myung's house
*Phone rings*
John Myung: Hello?
Mike Portnoy: Hey man, I've sent you your bass parts fully transcribed to your e-mail, just learn them and get ready for touring!
John Myung: Bass parts of what...?
Mike Portnoy: The new album! It's done already!
John Myung: I didn't know we were making a new...
Mike Portnoy: No time for that! JP and I already worked everything and even recorded it, it's done, I'm also sending you the isolated tracks for you to work...
*JM hears the songs and tracks*
John Myung: What the fuck Mike, bass is barely there.
Mike Portnoy: Sounds awesome, right?
John Myung: But I didn't do shit.
Mike Portnoy: I know! Cool to have us in the band, specially me, right?
John Myung: Right.
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I mean, that last one kinda happened with James for Black Clouds where they were pretty much done with it and just sent him snippets of the materials before he did his vocals. Right? I think I remember reading that
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Didn't know that. Would be cool if there's an interview around to read more about it.
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Even though i love The Astonishing, i also want to see a different album this time around. I still think that MM is underutilized so far with a few exceptions, and i would love to hear a heavy, more metal and full on progressive album from the band. I've been listening to ToT lately, and it has such a great vibe (and an amazing bass sound and playing from JM). I feel that especially with DT12 and TA the band has been pushing for the cinematic vibe but it feels a little forced.
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As regards contributions from all members, stuff a la Yes' "Fragile" would be awesome.
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Systematic Chaos Sessions: What really happened
Mike Portnoy: Hey John, How ya' doin?
John Myung: ...What the hell are you doing?
Mike Portnoy: Writing your bass parts, I got some awesome ideas for you, here, follow them, they're already written.
John Myung: But I already had an idea for this song...
Mike Portnoy: I'm sorry man, but we changed everything around it, so it had to be reworked, don't worry, I also play bass at NCinema, remember?
John Myung: So I just learn them and that's it? Record and go?
Mike Portnoy: That's right!, it's all set, cool to have a guy like me and John Petrucci around, right?
John Myung: Right...
BC&SL sessions, what really happened
John Myung's house
*Phone rings*
John Myung: Hello?
Mike Portnoy: Hey man, I've sent you your bass parts fully transcribed to your e-mail, just learn them and get ready for touring!
John Myung: Bass parts of what...?
Mike Portnoy: The new album! It's done already!
John Myung: I didn't know we were making a new...
Mike Portnoy: No time for that! JP and I already worked everything and even recorded it, it's done, I'm also sending you the isolated tracks for you to work...
*JM hears the songs and tracks*
John Myung: What the fuck Mike, bass is barely there.
Mike Portnoy: Sounds awesome, right?
John Myung: But I didn't do shit.
Mike Portnoy: I know! Cool to have us in the band, specially me, right?
John Myung: Right.
And years later, Portnoy got a call from Myung.
Myung: hey Mike, what's up? You know, it's too bad you ain't here.
Portnoy: why?
Myung: this band would really need your advice.
Portnoy: why?
Myung: well MP and JR are writing the new album and it is covered with childish melodies and ballads
Portnoy: WWWWWWHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYyY??????
I don't think that it is acceptable to bash on anybody here no matter on which side you are.
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Well, in ADToE we know that Petrucci wrote the drums
No, he did NOT.
I mean, that last one kinda happened with James for Black Clouds where they were pretty much done with it and just sent him snippets of the materials before he did his vocals. Right? I think I remember reading that
No. Where do you guys get this stuff?
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No, he did NOT.
I thought that was pretty well known.
"On January 3, 2011, Dream Theater entered Cove City Sound Studios to begin working on a new album.[7] Although John Petrucci brought in demos, riffs, and songs from home, the album was mostly written in the studio. Writing was completed on March 2 and done without Mike Mangini. The band made demos for all the songs with drums already programmed, then sent them to Mangini who learned the parts and "added his own stuff.""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dramatic_Turn_of_Events
From Wikipedia. I'm pretty sure by "The band" it probably means "mostly JP".
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No. Where do you guys get this stuff?
On DTF :neverusethis:
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No, he did NOT.
I thought that was pretty well known.
"The band made demos for all the songs with drums already programmed, then sent them to Mangini who learned the parts and "added his own stuff.""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dramatic_Turn_of_Events
From Wikipedia. I'm pretty sure by "The band" it probably means "mostly JP".
And there have been TONS of interviews from the bandmembers, including JP and MM, stating that that is not true. JP programmed basic, stripped down drum tracks so that they could record the songs. He then sent them to Mangini, who of course kept the time signatures and a lot of the basic beats, but basically used JP's basic tracks as the building blocks for writing his drum parts. JP did not write them.
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What year are we in?
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And there have been TONS of interviews from the bandmembers, including JP and MM, stating that that is not true. JP programmed basic, stripped down drum tracks so that they could record the songs. He then sent them to Mangini, who of course kept the time signatures and a lot of the basic beats, but basically used JP's basic tracks as the building blocks for writing his drum parts. JP did not write them.
Yup that.
Both MM and JP have addressed this many times, especially MM. I've heard several interviews where he talked about the process in detail basically saying what JP programmed was simple drum parts to keep time in the different sections of songs, MM took those and ran with them, writing his own parts with those basic blueprints as a starting point.
If you listen to ADTOE, it's got what I can now (after three DT albums) call a ton of signature MM style parts.
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The entire ADTOE is filled with crazy instrumental sections. (...)
The lack of anything remarkable dates from before Portnoy left.
And it isn't like Portnoy wrote the crazy solos.
And I do like the ones in Outcry and BAI (especially the second part in the latter, after the solo); also, some other sections throughout the three albums.. But then again, they don't have the same quality as before.. Because yeah, the whole MP/JR era was brilliant in that aspect, IMHO.. I'd say since ADToE, but most of all since DT12, the band has been putting aside the instrumental aspect in their 'crazy sections' and giving instead major importance to the vocals.. There's a lot of examples of that in the last two albums, but just to mention some of them: Live, Die, Kill (second half), The Pursuit of Truth, Three Days and The Walking Shadow..
I mean: where the hell have gone sections like Full Circle, or the instrumental parts in TDEN and TCoT?... they vanished with a scream?.... I'm not talking about the solos, and neither I'm saying MP wrote the sections, btw.. Whether they have lost somehow the magic to create things like that, or they just don't want to do them anymore..
Even when I'm not comfortable with that, I could understand that the lack of the crazy instrumentals have made room for new stuff, like the thing with the vocals, the explorations in different styles, well, the whole The Astonishing idea, etc...
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If you can provide sources for those interviews contradicting the Wikipedia article concerning the drum parts, I will gladly update it.
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No, he did NOT.
I thought that was pretty well known.
"The band made demos for all the songs with drums already programmed, then sent them to Mangini who learned the parts and "added his own stuff.""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dramatic_Turn_of_Events
From Wikipedia. I'm pretty sure by "The band" it probably means "mostly JP".
And there have been TONS of interviews from the bandmembers, including JP and MM, stating that that is not true. JP programmed basic, stripped down drum tracks so that they could record the songs. He then sent them to Mangini, who of course kept the time signatures and a lot of the basic beats, but basically used JP's basic tracks as the building blocks for writing his drum parts. JP did not write them.
This. JP Sent Mangini bass drum and snare patterns only. Purely to outline feel. MM had the option to stick to that or create his own parts.
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From JP himself, about the whole drumming on ADTOE point:
https://iheartguitarblog.com/2011/09/interview-dream-theaters-john-petrucci.html#sthash.g0Zg3aPv.dpuf (https://iheartguitarblog.com/2011/09/interview-dream-theaters-john-petrucci.html#sthash.g0Zg3aPv.dpuf)
I understand that this time around you had a big role in composing the drum parts. How did you go about that?
Well what I did was, when we were writing the music we were all set up in the studio and we’d write a section of music, whether it be a riff or a chord sequence or whatever it was, and I wanted to be able to present it in such a way – Mike Mangini wasn’t available when we were writing – and I wanted to be able to present ideas in a way that, instead of just giving him a click with guitars and keyboards, I thought it would be better to give him more of a blueprint of what we were thinking as far as the feel and groove of the sections. I didn’t go crazy programming the drums. I did it on a basic level. I didn’t want to waste a lot of time being very nerdy with the drums. It’d be a waste of time! Y’know, I’m not a drummer, I’m a guitar player! But when all is said and done, the songs existed as full demos with full drums. I used the Superior drumming program, which sounded great. So we were able to send that to Mangini, and he was able to get a really good feeling as to what we were going for. And of course, him being really creative and a master drummer he was able to take care of that in his own way and add incredible fills and segues and turnarounds. He would catch things that people were playing and make it a hell of a lot more interesting than my little drum programming! It’s important that people realise how creative he is.
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I remember when Mike told JP programmed drum section so crazy he couldn't play it :lol
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I remember when Mike told JP programmed drum section so crazy he couldn't play it :lol
Now that's crazy.. I remember that too.. When I read it I thought: "Not even him can play it?.." :omg:
I think JP was too much into Animals as Leaders or something.. :lol
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I think it wasn't exactly "crazy", but rather too many beats a second.
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JP isn't a drummer, so maybe for him just a ton of random superfast beats sounded awesome, and maybe he was unaware that there were other ways to create that effect.
I'm almost certain that this part was the LNF intro.
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Actually, I'm pretty sure it was in the Bridges In The Sky ending: https://youtu.be/sx8cLlXnHpA?t=45m46s
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Ok, I understand that saying JP wrote every single drum beat in ADToE is not correct, after all I don't think he would have thought of something like the triple-pattern magic in OTBoA. Still, by writing even basic drum parts he could have dictated the structure of the songs. That I can believe and that was the main point of my assertion.
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Wow, this whole last page doesn't look like album speculation at all...
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Systematic Chaos Sessions: What really happened
Mike Portnoy: Hey John, How ya' doin?
John Myung: ...What the hell are you doing?
Mike Portnoy: Writing your bass parts, I got some awesome ideas for you, here, follow them, they're already written.
John Myung: But I already had an idea for this song...
Mike Portnoy: I'm sorry man, but we changed everything around it, so it had to be reworked, don't worry, I also play bass at NCinema, remember?
John Myung: So I just learn them and that's it? Record and go?
Mike Portnoy: That's right!, it's all set, cool to have a guy like me and John Petrucci around, right?
John Myung: Right...
BC&SL sessions, what really happened
John Myung's house
*Phone rings*
John Myung: Hello?
Mike Portnoy: Hey man, I've sent you your bass parts fully transcribed to your e-mail, just learn them and get ready for touring!
John Myung: Bass parts of what...?
Mike Portnoy: The new album! It's done already!
John Myung: I didn't know we were making a new...
Mike Portnoy: No time for that! JP and I already worked everything and even recorded it, it's done, I'm also sending you the isolated tracks for you to work...
*JM hears the songs and tracks*
John Myung: What the fuck Mike, bass is barely there.
Mike Portnoy: Sounds awesome, right?
John Myung: But I didn't do shit.
Mike Portnoy: I know! Cool to have us in the band, specially me, right?
John Myung: Right.
Funny! I wonder what happened to Myung bass in TA. Just saying.
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He had a lot of fun with it.
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Funny! I wonder what happened to Myung bass in TA. Just saying.
The bass is there. I had to tweak a bit my stereo in order to hear it. But I do agree, it's a bit buried.
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Funny! I wonder what happened to Myung bass in TA. Just saying.
The bass is there. I had to tweak a bit my stereo in order to hear it. But I do agree, it's a bit buried.
Meh, I can hear the bass just fine. Maybe not one of the clearest bass sounds on a DT album but if you listen for it, it's not difficult to hear.
Getting sort of back on topic:
Is it weird that I'm already hyped for the next DT album? It's to the point where when I woke up, I took it as a fact that they had released a single from DT14, that it had been 8:50 long (with a relatively long name with one of the words beginning with the letter M), that it had a production that was a mix of SDoIT/8vm/DT12 and even that the album art had the 8vm/SC border, had an orange tint, and showed a road with an 8-sided DT sign beside it. Also, the music video had the band performing the song in space. :lol
I think the song sounded stylistically like a mix of Evergrey and Symphony X, just with LaBrie singing on top.
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Yes that's Drugavarium
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Yes that's Drugavarium
In the inevitable prediction thread, someone should make an album where each song is a drug pun matched with existing DT songs. Thinking about it though, that may have already been done.
I don't really know why I dream about imaginary DT albums occasionally. I once had one about a double concept album with an icy cover with the majesty logo in a glass sphere in the middle. It's really strange.
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Is it weird that I'm already hyped for the next DT album?
I don't think so. The The Astonishing's cycle is pretty much coming to a conclusion. Contrary to the rest of their previous albums' cycles, all of the music has already been played, and they've already toured most of the countries they usually visit - only Oceania/Japan is left, I believe. Plus, the band has confirmed (in a few interviews) that they have already talked about and made decisions about what they'll do for their next album, so even they are already thinking about the next step.
Having said that, I should but I'm not hyped about the next one yet. 2016 has been my most 'DT' year - new album (which I love and is probably my favourite), joining the forums, Q&A and show in late June... It's like The Astonishing's cycle was a big meal that has left me full and satisfied, and I'm still digesting it, not thinking about what I'm 'eating' tomorrow. In fact, I haven't played the CD since I saw the band live in June.
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The album was released late January 2016. It's now Mid August 2016.
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The album was released late January 2016. It's now Mid August 2016.
Exactly. .. it has been seven months already, why are they not in the studio :P
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The The Astonishing's cycle is pretty much coming to a conclusion. Contrary to the rest of their previous albums' cycles, all of the music has already been played, and they've already toured most of the countries they usually visit - only Oceania/Japan is left, I believe. Plus, the band has confirmed (in a few interviews) that they have already talked about and made decisions about what they'll do for their next album, so even they are already thinking about the next step.
Exactly.. Although I can assure you they started thinking about the next album as soon as they finished TA (or even before that, giving the fact that they knew from the beginning -probably mid or late 2014- that the music for the new album had to be in a certain way, and in the process they may have discarted some ideas only because it wouldn't fit in any passage of the story/album)..
My -strong- assumption comes from what is happening to me and my bandmates right now; we haven't yet finish the record process of our -first- album and we can't wait to make more music!.. Sometimes the structure of launching just one album (or two in a row, like DT did) represses, so to speak, music that could've been even better than the one you are recording or mastering.. And if it's happening to us, I believe is very likely to happen DT every time they conclude a cycle, or throughout it..
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Not speculation, but my hope is they'll dial down the cheese for the next one.
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Not speculation, but my hope is they'll dial down the cheese for the next one.
Can't disagree with that. I feel like the whole "cinematic" thing has come full circle with The Astonishing, and even though i really like the album, i hope they get to a more rock-metal vibe this time, less epicness, more rocking. And hopefully with a good production, ADTOE and DT12 had some serious flaws.
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Full disclosure: I hated the last two albums. They both bored me to tears and TA just felt embarrassing and silly in the sheer quantity of cheese. I don't really consider myself a DT fan anymore as a result of the ST, which has much to do with my disappearance until now.
I much preferred ADToE and would rather that they just stick to that track. It's why I love FII even though it's a black sheep: straight rock and prog without the pretense. Same goes for Awake.
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My -strong- assumption comes from what is happening to me and my bandmates right now; we haven't yet finish the record process of our -first- album and we can't wait to make more music!..
That's cool! When do you think you'll release it?
Also: do you plan on making CDs, or just uploading it? I would be interested in buying a physical copy.
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My -strong- assumption comes from what is happening to me and my bandmates right now; we haven't yet finish the record process of our -first- album and we can't wait to make more music!..
That's cool! When do you think you'll release it?
Also: do you plan on making CDs, or just uploading it? I would be interested in buying a physical copy.
Thanks.. We think it'll be done later this year.. And we're definitely making physical copies; not sure until now if we'll upload the whole thing.. Reserved!.. :tup
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Not speculation, but my hope is they'll dial down the cheese for the next one.
:tup Nice way to put it.
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Full disclosure: I hated the last two albums. They both bored me to tears and TA just felt embarrassing and silly in the sheer quantity of cheese. I don't really consider myself a DT fan anymore as a result of the ST, which has much to do with my disappearance until now.
I much preferred ADToE and would rather that they just stick to that track. It's why I love FII even though it's a black sheep: straight rock and prog without the pretense. Same goes for Awake.
Exactly the same here. I kinda dropped out of DTF for the most part, I find DT's latest efforts just really bad. I put TA on today actually, and the only thing i could think was "this is astonishingly bad, to a level no previous DT album has been bad before".
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Full disclosure: I hated the last two albums. They both bored me to tears and TA just felt embarrassing and silly in the sheer quantity of cheese. I don't really consider myself a DT fan anymore
Same here.
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Then, why are you posting on a DT related site discussing the next album? Just to say once again how much you hated the last two albums? I guess whe had got it the many times you said it before.
B.Lee
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Then, why are you posting on a DT related site discussing the next album? Just to say once again how much you hated the last two albums? I guess whe had got it the many times you said it before.
B.Lee
Doesn't mean I couldn't possibly like the next album if they make a few changes. I would like to like a new DT album.
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Then, why are you posting on a DT related site discussing the next album? Just to say once again how much you hated the last two albums? I guess whe had got it the many times you said it before.
B.Lee
Doesn't mean I couldn't possibly like the next album if they make a few changes. I would like to like a new DT album.
OK, fair enough. Frankly, for me, my relation to DT has been made of ups and downs ever since Octavarium. I decided to let DT a chance after BC&SL. If I hadn't liked ADToE, I would have called it quit. We can agree on that one thing : I also would like something more straight because, while I like TA despite its obvious flaws, I'm more of an Awake guy, just like you.
B.Lee
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TA is an amazing album.. I love it more each time I listen to it..
And as I said before in another thread, it blew my mind -and still does- so much, that it made me reach a point where I ask nothing more from them.. Just do whatever you want in the next album.. I'll be fine with it, even if I dislike it, thing that I find hard to happen at this stage: they have found a new zenith, the first since MM is in the band.. I love their sound nowadays, and the fact that they've, with the latest album, returned to experiment a bit (having in mind they're already a prog metal band), with new styles and kind of things they have never done before (34 tracks, more than 2 hours of music, recording with an actual orchestra and chorus for most of the songs)..
Of course I do agree, as I also stated before, that it would be nice if they do a heavier album next time.. But I don't care so much for that kind of desires or expectations anymore.. I have the wish accomplished of them making a better while experimenting album after the almost equally good one DT12 was..
I have seen/heard my dream come true, one last time.. I ask no more.. :millahhhh
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I don't really care much about specific "directions" they should go into. I neither care much, or even categorize, DT albums that way.
What I wished they did is to stop writing for the clock. JR has alluded to that they've had specific amounts of audio time for a given album, and the moment they clocked the full time, they stopped writing. And of course TA was even more framed by the length consideration.
I feel that, and this is of course pure speculation, that if they stopped looking at the clock, they might be more willing to cull fluff, which IMHO has been a major issue with their latest efforts. They still have excellent musical ideas, but they often get drowned in a sea of stuff that, I feel, 15 years ago would have ended up on the cutting floor. Who knows, maybe that was one of MP's big contributions, to honestly tell JP and JR "nah, I'm not feeling that one. Got something else?".
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Who knows, maybe that was one of MP's big contributions, to honestly tell JP and JR "nah, I'm not feeling that one. Got something else?".
Tbh, if it is indeed the case, seeing what was left on Octavarium (to a lesser extent) and on SC and BC&SL(to a far greater extent), IMO of course, his contribution could be flawed as well.
B.Lee
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Not sure I understand what you mean, BLee. Are you referring to "remaining audio time that could have fit on a CD"? Other than DT12, which was written with the specific intent of shorter songs, there has not been a DT album in the last 13 years that was below 95% of the possible audio that a CD allows. I mean, it's pretty obvious that that is deliberate on their part.
If you compare that to album lengths of say Opeth or Porcupine Tree for example, they have wildly fluctuating album lengths, for thy obvious reason that the length was simply an outcome of the songs they had written and chosen for the album.
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If Portnoy was still in the band, I am not sure he would have agreed to letting Petrucci and Rudess write the whole thing (that whole control thing :lol), but if we can assume for the sake of argument that he would have, I think it's likely that a few of the songs would have been cut and few others would have been expanded into longer tunes with instrumental sections. Portnoy would have probably insisted on "progging it up" a bit. Pointless speculation, sure, but that's my feeling.
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Not sure I understand what you mean, BLee. Are you referring to "remaining audio time that could have fit on a CD"? Other than DT12, which was written with the specific intent of shorter songs, there has not been a DT album in the last 13 years that was below 95% of the possible audio that a CD allows. I mean, it's pretty obvious that that is deliberate on their part.
If you compare that to album lengths of say Opeth or Porcupine Tree for example, they have wildly fluctuating album lengths, for thy obvious reason that the length was simply an outcome of the songs they had written and chosen for the album.
I guess I misunderstood what you meant. I was speaking more in terms of quality.
B.Lee
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I'm pretty sure it will be better than TA. I mean, it has to be, right?
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I'm pretty sure it will be better than TA. I mean, it has to be, right?
"The Astonishing 2: Xander's Laments"
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I'm pretty sure it will be better than TA. I mean, it has to be, right?
I would sacrifice a lot of squirrels to the Dark Lord to make sure the next album would be better than The Astonishing.
Or, to bring it all down to personal tastes, if I would like the next allbum better than how I like The Astonishing which is an insane lot :metal
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If Portnoy was still in the band, I am not sure he would have agreed to letting Petrucci and Rudess write the whole thing (that whole control thing :lol), but if we can assume for the sake of argument that he would have, I think it's likely that a few of the songs would have been cut and few others would have been expanded into longer tunes with instrumental sections. Portnoy would have probably insisted on "progging it up" a bit. Pointless speculation, sure, but that's my feeling.
It's truth though. No way in hell MP sits out the writing process.
What I wished they did is to stop writing for the clock. JR has alluded to that they've had specific amounts of audio time for a given album, and the moment they clocked the full time, they stopped writing.
I hate to even say this, but didn't MP end up taking the blame for most of the writing "boundaries" (for lack of better term). Perhaps, it was not all on MP.
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Then, why are you posting on a DT related site discussing the next album? Just to say once again how much you hated the last two albums? I guess whe had got it the many times you said it before.
B.Lee
Being on a DT forum doesn't mean I can't discuss other subjects or other bands. The fact that I didn't like the last two albums at all also doesn't mean I will not be listening to their future releases.
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All I wish is that Dream Theater would just create music. As John Petrucci said that if there are multiple albums released, fans will always compare them to other albums, and I admit which I have done.
But overall, I'm content with all their albums. There are no albums that stick out like a sore thumb. We should all just appreciate anything they throw out, because if we set standards on albums, we may become really disappointed.
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What I wished they did is to stop writing for the clock. JR has alluded to that they've had specific amounts of audio time for a given album, and the moment they clocked the full time, they stopped writing.
I hate to even say this, but didn't MP end up taking the blame for most of the writing "boundaries" (for lack of better term). Perhaps, it was not all on MP.
I think you guys are right, I think MP was just as much a motivating force in that approach as the others. If you look at it, it was a long process in the making, and it started somewhere around SDOIT when they no longer produced demos, but instead wrote straight in the studio. I think that slowly shifted their mindset towards directly producing the end product, and thus looking at the overall audio clock.
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I don't really care much about specific "directions" they should go into. I neither care much, or even categorize, DT albums that way.
What I wished they did is to stop writing for the clock. JR has alluded to that they've had specific amounts of audio time for a given album, and the moment they clocked the full time, they stopped writing. And of course TA was even more framed by the length consideration.
I feel that, and this is of course pure speculation, that if they stopped looking at the clock, they might be more willing to cull fluff, which IMHO has been a major issue with their latest efforts. They still have excellent musical ideas, but they often get drowned in a sea of stuff that, I feel, 15 years ago would have ended up on the cutting floor. Who knows, maybe that was one of MP's big contributions, to honestly tell JP and JR "nah, I'm not feeling that one. Got something else?".
I have been thinking this since ADTOE. I mostly like what DT has done since MP left but it's clear to me that he left a void in the editing department. There just doesn't seem to be the same attention to form and arrangement that there was when MP was in the band. Illumination Theory is probably the most blatant example of that, but there are also more subtle moments that make me think "this would've been different if MP was in the band".
It seems like they didn't change their creative process at all when MP left which is fine, but at the same time nobody stepped up to fill his role. So that aspect of their music is just not there anymore.
This isn't a bring back MP post btw, just an observation of their recent writing.
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Not sure I understand what you mean, BLee. Are you referring to "remaining audio time that could have fit on a CD"? Other than DT12, which was written with the specific intent of shorter songs, there has not been a DT album in the last 13 years that was below 95% of the possible audio that a CD allows. I mean, it's pretty obvious that that is deliberate on their part.
If you compare that to album lengths of say Opeth or Porcupine Tree for example, they have wildly fluctuating album lengths, for thy obvious reason that the length was simply an outcome of the songs they had written and chosen for the album.
And it's been nearly 20 years since they've had an outsider producer. Yes, I get it, they're an established and "seasoned" band, but the last two (and a half) albums have confirmed for me that they sorely need one. I have been thinking about this in the context of Frost*'s own recently released album, which I've loved and probably played to death by now. AFAIK they don't have an outside producer, but they really don't need one since that's Jem's day job. But the songs came out sounding polished, fresher, and - dare I say it - somewhat radio-friendly. If only DT wasn't so afraid of "selling out," they could put out their first 10/10 since SFAM.
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The biggest problem I have with Dt's music ever since SC, it's that it's become clinical, if I may say so. It lacks life, for lack of a better term. And I completely agree with the outside producer thing, it could offer a new perspective on their work. Wouldn't be against a Kevin Shirley return for that matter.
B.Lee
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The addition of MM definitely pushed them even further into that direction, that's for sure. MP by no means is the be-all-end-all of drumming (not by a long shot), but there was always something off the cuff, visceral about his playing, and it added a crucial element to DT's already rather clinical approach to music. JR is very clinical too, and now with MM, I feel JP is the last man standing who has a somewhat "natural" approach to his instrument. And live, the fact that they now play everything to click, is another step into the clinical direction.
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The addition of MM definitely pushed them even further into that direction, that's for sure. MP by no means is the be-all-end-all of drumming (not by a long shot), but there was always something off the cuff, visceral about his playing, and it added a crucial element to DT's already rather clinical approach to music. JR is very clinical too, and now with MM, I feel JP is the last man standing who has a somewhat "natural" approach to his instrument. And live, the fact that they now play everything to click, is another step into the clinical direction.
I have to agree with you on that one, Rumby. While I don't miss MP's personality nor his singing at all, I miss his more organic playing. But even then, MP was still in the band when their music became kinda cold for me. So, I don't know.
B.Lee
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What I wished they did is to stop writing for the clock. JR has alluded to that they've had specific amounts of audio time for a given album, and the moment they clocked the full time, they stopped writing.
I hate to even say this, but didn't MP end up taking the blame for most of the writing "boundaries" (for lack of better term). Perhaps, it was not all on MP.
I think you guys are right, I think MP was just as much a motivating force in that approach as the others. If you look at it, it was a long process in the making, and it started somewhere around SDOIT when they no longer produced demos, but instead wrote straight in the studio. I think that slowly shifted their mindset towards directly producing the end product, and thus looking at the overall audio clock.
I have the feeling that Mike Mangini's input to the writing of songs, production, sounds is basically nil. The least I can say is that it doesn't work as well as I was expecting. For me, Portnoy departure has not been a good thing.
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The addition of MM definitely pushed them even further into that direction, that's for sure. MP by no means is the be-all-end-all of drumming (not by a long shot), but there was always something off the cuff, visceral about his playing, and it added a crucial element to DT's already rather clinical approach to music. JR is very clinical too, and now with MM, I feel JP is the last man standing who has a somewhat "natural" approach to his instrument. And live, the fact that they now play everything to click, is another step into the clinical direction.
Kind of agree on that, but i think there is also the factor of production, and it seems that MM despite being an awesome drummer doesn't really have a complete control or idea about his sound, which led to a very cold and clinical sounding kit. I'm sure most of us who have been to a concert can agree that he sounds so much better and dynamic live.
But, despite the (serious imo) production issues, MM's playing is quite different in terms of feeling the groove and accenting the time signatures. MP was and still is relying to a limited set of signature tricks, but he was always creative in doing so and keeping things interesting. MM while playing complicated stuff he does so in a way that sounds very strict. Especially his hi-hat playing and sound is very different and it was something that MP was great about, very tight sound and lots of little details on even simple rhythms, and MM has a quite different approach (it's a matter of taste not a case of better or worse) that is evident in the way he plays the MP songs. Sometimes it feels right while different (Trial Of Tears on BTFW) sometimes it feels weird and maybe not so tight (6:00, About To Crash).
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I hope for FII part 2.
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I hope for FII part 2.
My man! :tup
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Full disclosure: I hated the last two albums. They both bored me to tears and TA just felt embarrassing and silly in the sheer quantity of cheese. I don't really consider myself a DT fan anymore as a result of the ST, which has much to do with my disappearance until now.
I much preferred ADToE and would rather that they just stick to that track. It's why I love FII even though it's a black sheep: straight rock and prog without the pretense. Same goes for Awake.
Exactly the same here. I kinda dropped out of DTF for the most part, I find DT's latest efforts just really bad. I put TA on today actually, and the only thing i could think was "this is astonishingly bad, to a level no previous DT album has been bad before".
I still listen almost daily on my 1.5 hour drive home from work and repeatedly think to myself "man, this might be DT's best album to date".
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If only DT wasn't so afraid of "selling out," they could put out their first 10/10 since SFAM.
Though my feelings on TA are upside down compared to yours, well i actually do have to admit that the only time i've spent some thoughts, mm, better, ears to someone who was explaining it to his friend, i've found the story quite embarassing, what i've quoted is the closest thought to what i've had in my mind for quite some time now.
I'd like their songs to fit in something similar to their FC show in Rotterdam, I'd like them to be singable just with an acoustic guitar in your hand.
JP, please, next time you'll write an album, take more in consideration the great guy you have on your far right (JM).
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JP, please, next time you'll write an album, take more in consideration the great guy you have on your far right (JM).
You're wrong.. The problem is precisely that JM doesn't compose by himself, nor participates so much in the writing process when he even does that.. It's a shame, but that's how it is.. Besides, the guy who never took him in consideration is not in the band anymore..
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I stand for what i've said: to write TA with just JR was JP decision, but of course it's because it's the way it has worked since SFAM (being JP and JR the main composers).
What i'd like to hear is more groove oriented songs, which imply a deeper JM involvement. I remember JM commenting on ADTOE saying it reminded him of the Awake sessions in terms of collaboration: i think they should go back to that even more.
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Yes, I'd like they go back to compose that way too.. In fact they have done that not only in ADToE but also in DT12, which is actually the only album to feature contributions from every member in their whole discography.. But then again, what JR and JP by themselves have done in TA is more than impressive (not to use the pun), and I like it way too much than what they've collectively done in ADToE..
About what you've said, well, that's not exactly what you said before.. One thing is to say JP doesn't envolve JM in the composition process, and another very different that was JP decision to create TA with JR alone, because that would include JLB and MM in the equation.. Anyway, what I'm saying is that JM's poor involvement is his fault and no one else's, at least if you're looking for the main responsible.. Having said that, the man has now much more participation and/or presence than in SC/BC&SL days..
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The addition of MM definitely pushed them even further into that direction, that's for sure. MP by no means is the be-all-end-all of drumming (not by a long shot), but there was always something off the cuff, visceral about his playing, and it added a crucial element to DT's already rather clinical approach to music. JR is very clinical too, and now with MM, I feel JP is the last man standing who has a somewhat "natural" approach to his instrument. And live, the fact that they now play everything to click, is another step into the clinical direction.
Kind of agree on that, but i think there is also the factor of production, and it seems that MM despite being an awesome drummer doesn't really have a complete control or idea about his sound, which led to a very cold and clinical sounding kit. I'm sure most of us who have been to a concert can agree that he sounds so much better and dynamic live.
But, despite the (serious imo) production issues, MM's playing is quite different in terms of feeling the groove and accenting the time signatures. MP was and still is relying to a limited set of signature tricks, but he was always creative in doing so and keeping things interesting. MM while playing complicated stuff he does so in a way that sounds very strict. Especially his hi-hat playing and sound is very different and it was something that MP was great about, very tight sound and lots of little details on even simple rhythms, and MM has a quite different approach (it's a matter of taste not a case of better or worse) that is evident in the way he plays the MP songs. Sometimes it feels right while different (Trial Of Tears on BTFW) sometimes it feels weird and maybe not so tight (6:00, About To Crash).
nikatapi said it more eloquently than I ever could. I've no issue with MM's playing style, but I'd like DT14 to have a more natural-sounding drum production. IMO, ADTOE sounded pretty natural, but very timid to me, almost like they were self-conscious about showing off their new drummer too much. DT12 was too full-on, bombastic, compressed and unrealistic. TA was a step back from that, an improvement, but even so, a lot of the intricacies you hear in the live performance seem to be buried in the album mix.
It'd be cool if they could crack that for the next one. Oh yeah, and more of JM would be nice too.. :)
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I have a good feeling the next album will have writing from all band members. Since The Astonishing is a major JP penned concept with the help of JR writing the music. JP might want to let the others write giving himself a little break.
But all in all, it's up to the other members to bring in ideas or thoughts about others' ideas. The others had no problem with JR and JP doing it all, since they know they can add their own flava to the songs.
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I predict September 2018 release.
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I predict September 2018 release.
Maybe if they took a break, had more tour dates or are doing another double disc album. I think that it is reasonable that we could get a late 2017 release if they get in the studio in April/May after the tour ends in March. That could just be my optimism though. Then again, quotes like this show that they are already hyped up to make a new album:
"We have a long tour to promote 'The Astonishing', at least until next March, and after that we are definitely going to make another album. We've already been discussing this, and even though I won't reveal anything to you, we've agreed on what kind of album we want to create next time. It's going to be great, and surely it will be something which will have us fully dedicated to. I can also tell you that, according to what we have talked about, it's also going to freak out all of our fans around the world." -JLB (credit to SebastianPratesi for the translation on https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=48017.0)
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How about some 8 string guitars?
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How about some 8 string guitars?
That would be interesting. But I would be a little surprised if JP went that direction.
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How about some 8 string guitars?
That would be interesting. But I would be a little surprised if JP went that direction.
Agreed. His work with the 7 string has been awesome, but he doesn't seem like the type of player to push to 8 strings.
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Less 8-string guitars, more 12-string guitars.
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How about some 8 string guitars?
I hope not
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Less 8-string guitars, more 12-string guitars.
My feelings too. I don't like the 8-string, either in the highs or in the lows. Too extreme for me.
B.Lee
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How about some 8 string guitars?
Why not? As long as the riffs are interesting!
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Less 8-string guitars, more 12-string guitars.
I could get behind that, like, as a general rule of thumb.
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Less 8-string guitars, more 12-string guitars.
12 string Djent?
Yes please.
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No 8 strings.
I don't need that Gunga Gunga Bowwww Gung Gung sound in DT thanks.
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I don't have a problem with the concept of 8 string guitars, but very few guitarists actually take advantage of the range it has. Might as well just tune down a six string or play a bass.
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I don't have a problem with the concept of 8 string guitars, but very few guitarists actually take advantage of the range it has. Might as well just tune down a six string or play a bass.
I don't know why we can't have 6 strings that are made to accommodate the bottom 6 strings of an 8 string so it goes F# - F# or whatever.
Like a Baritone but lower.
But yeah they always say it's about " extended range " but then just rape the lowest string anyway.
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This is all assuming you only use an 8 string for METAL!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiERPVIEvSc
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it's also going to freak out all of our fans around the world." -JLB
This part is intriguing, I'm a little worried.
It's not "gonna divide our fans" or be like a previous album
Freak out because it's metropolis part 3 or freak out because a trumpet and a harp are going to replace JP and JR for this album ? :s
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Freak out because it's metropolis part 3 or freak out because a trumpet and a harp are going to replace JP and JR for this album ? :s
Or maybe instead of either of those options, it will be something good! :biggrin:
I'll try not to read too much into an off the cuff response given before they've even started an album, but hopefully it doesn't mean it will be something too familiar and safe.
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or freak out because a trumpet and a harp are going to replace JP and JR for this album ? :s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f4LCfYE2kM
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How about some 8 string guitars?
I wouldn't like this. It would only drown out JM's basslines even more.
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But yeah they always say it's about " extended range " but then just rape the lowest string anyway.
I think JP would actually use it for extended range though. Look at what he does with a 7 string with songs like TDoE, TBP and IT. I don't see why he wouldn't follow that kind of playing if he were to use an 8 string.
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This is all assuming you only use an 8 string for METAL!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiERPVIEvSc
or freak out because a trumpet and a harp are going to replace JP and JR for this album ? :s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f4LCfYE2kM
Not to derail the thread, but man Rob Scallon is awesome!
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This is all assuming you only use an 8 string for METAL!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiERPVIEvSc
or freak out because a trumpet and a harp are going to replace JP and JR for this album ? :s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f4LCfYE2kM
Not to derail the thread, but man Rob Scallon is awesome!
That he is. :metal
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JP used a nice bit of 12 string acoustic on TA. More of that would always be welcome in my book.
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or freak out because a trumpet and a harp are going to replace JP and JR for this album ? :s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f4LCfYE2kM
I think it's safe to say that the world needs more harp metal.
Do it JP!
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John Petrucci: Have you considered using even more strings on your guitars? Going 8 strings, maybe include some big djent riffs in your playing?
Yes. In the same way that I picked up the 7-string while writing the Awake album, I’m planning on using 8-string on the next DT album. The prospect of an even further extended range is really exciting to me!
https://dreamtheater.club/blog/2016/09/03/dream-theater-fan-club-interview-august-2016/
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John Petrucci: Have you considered using even more strings on your guitars? Going 8 strings, maybe include some big djent riffs in your playing?
Yes. In the same way that I picked up the 7-string while writing the Awake album, I’m planning on using 8-string on the next DT album. The prospect of an even further extended range is really exciting to me!
https://dreamtheater.club/blog/2016/09/03/dream-theater-fan-club-interview-august-2016/
That is awesome.
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John Petrucci: Have you considered using even more strings on your guitars? Going 8 strings, maybe include some big djent riffs in your playing?
Yes. In the same way that I picked up the 7-string while writing the Awake album, I’m planning on using 8-string on the next DT album. The prospect of an even further extended range is really exciting to me!
https://dreamtheater.club/blog/2016/09/03/dream-theater-fan-club-interview-august-2016/
That is awesome.
I'm curious to hear what he will come up with. If the 8-string is used as well as the 7-string on Awake, I'll say OK. Otherwise, not really my thing.
B.Lee
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Between Jordan's left hand and JP's 8-string, I think JM might as well not show up anymore.
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Extended Range = A 7 string guitar with an extra string that just makes that one sound.
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inb4 8 string Majesty
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Between Jordan's left hand and JP's 8-string, I think JM might as well not show up anymore.
A bit exaggerated, but I think the point stands. With how dense DT has been arranging and producing, I hope space will still be allotted for JM.
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There's a bit of a "war" going on in DT. JP went from 6 to 7, and now to 8 strings. JM added his bass pedal board. MM scaled up his kit to insane size (in comparison to MP). Backing tracks were added.
I know it's a somewhat lame thing to say, but I wonder what DT would come up with if they had one guitar with a store amp, one simple keyboard, a classic drumkit, and a bass.
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I know it's a somewhat lame thing to say, but I wonder what DT would come up with if they had one guitar with a store amp, one simple keyboard, a classic drumkit, and a bass.
Now this is a direction I'd like to see. Working with the tools that early Black Sabbath and Deep Purple had to deal with.
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I know it's a somewhat lame thing to say, but I wonder what DT would come up with if they had one guitar with a store amp, one simple keyboard, a classic drumkit, and a bass.
Now this is a direction I'd like to see. Working with the tools that early Black Sabbath and Deep Purple had to deal with.
That pretty much what they did with Octavarium. They wrote the whole album on an acoustic guitar, piano, and vocals. JP used only six string guitars with two of the eight songs (These Walls and Panic Attack) using a baritone guitar and therefore inhabiting the bass guitar's range. The album's production left plenty of room to breathe especially for JM.
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I know it's a somewhat lame thing to say, but I wonder what DT would come up with if they had one guitar with a store amp, one simple keyboard, a classic drumkit, and a bass.
Now this is a direction I'd like to see. Working with the tools that early Black Sabbath and Deep Purple had to deal with.
That pretty much what they did with Octavarium. They wrote the whole album on an acoustic guitar, piano, and vocals.
What?
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I know it's a somewhat lame thing to say, but I wonder what DT would come up with if they had one guitar with a store amp, one simple keyboard, a classic drumkit, and a bass.
Now this is a direction I'd like to see. Working with the tools that early Black Sabbath and Deep Purple had to deal with.
Yeah, I'd love to hear a more organic and stripped-down DT album, but unfortunately I doubt it'll happen.
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I know it's a somewhat lame thing to say, but I wonder what DT would come up with if they had one guitar with a store amp, one simple keyboard, a classic drumkit, and a bass.
Now this is a direction I'd like to see. Working with the tools that early Black Sabbath and Deep Purple had to deal with.
That pretty much what they did with Octavarium. They wrote the whole album on an acoustic guitar, piano, and vocals.
What?
From Wikipedia:
Guitarist John Petrucci noted that they wanted to focus on writing strong songs. To achieve this, the band stripped the sound down to piano, guitar and vocals when writing, focusing on the melodies and song structures.
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It's hard to imagine writing Panic Attack on an acoustic guitar.
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How about some 8 string guitars?
The thing is, IMHO the 8 string's gonna sound like their own take on djent, kinda like what they did with nu-metal in These Walls/TDEN with the bouncy groovy riffs. Not that I didn't like that approach, but I hardly think they could employ the lower range together with the bass effectively, and the "competition" (Meshuggah, Tesseract, Animals As Leaders) is on a league of its own, though now they also do have a badass master of polyrhythms/polymeters as drummer...
Maybe they want to go full Meshuggah on us, that would definitely freak me out (not necessarily for the best).
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Maybe they want to go full Meshuggah on us, that would definitely freak me out (not necessarily for the best).
hopefully not... :\
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I definitely expect a heavier album in the vein of Train of Thought and I expect it to come out within the usual 2 year cycle.. I liken the Astonishing to SDOIT disc 2, Both albums were double discs and released January 29th of their year of release.. Six Degrees was followed by a far more "focused" and raw sound and I think the band may want to repeat history by doing the same here. The 8 string idea is interesting because 8 strings is commonly related to heavier forms of music, I believe there wouldn't be much of a point using it for cleans anyway, so that has me believe they'll take a heavier route this time around, I think it's needed after the massive cinematic approach on TA. As much as I loved the album, it'd be nice to see them mix things up again
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I know it's a somewhat lame thing to say, but I wonder what DT would come up with if they had one guitar with a store amp, one simple keyboard, a classic drumkit, and a bass.
Now this is a direction I'd like to see. Working with the tools that early Black Sabbath and Deep Purple had to deal with.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8b/Majesty_Demos_%28Dream_Theater_album_-_cover_art%29.jpg)
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Heavier is certainly logical. And I would welcome it, as many others would. But this band hasn't really shown a patter of doing what is "expected."
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(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8b/Majesty_Demos_%28Dream_Theater_album_-_cover_art%29.jpg)
What if they go Th1rt3en on us and finally release Another Won, To Live Forever, March Of The Tyrant, Your Majesty, A Vision etc... in a studio album? That would be pretty freaky :lol
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That would be terrible.
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I definitely expect a heavier album in the vein of Train of Thought and I expect it to come out within the usual 2 year cycle.. I liken the Astonishing to SDOIT disc 2, Both albums were double discs and released January 29th of their year of release.. Six Degrees was followed by a far more "focused" and raw sound and I think the band may want to repeat history by doing the same here. The 8 string idea is interesting because 8 strings is commonly related to heavier forms of music, I believe there wouldn't be much of a point using it for cleans anyway, so that has me believe they'll take a heavier route this time around, I think it's needed after the massive cinematic approach on TA. As much as I loved the album, it'd be nice to see them mix things up again
I find 8 strings are actually better for clean playing than for heavy playing. You can play lower bass lines and high melodies at the same time. It's perfect for finger picking.
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That's a great idea, but I can't see Petrucci using it for that purpose. Chances are it's going to be for heavy riffing.
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Why do you say that? He does TONS of clean guitar work. I see no reason to rule it out on an 8 string if he were to try one out. Dude loves to experiment with different things. So while I think it will natural to see it used for heavy riffing, I would be really surprised if we didn't see him using it for clean playing as well.
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Why do you say that? He does TONS of clean guitar work. I see no reason to rule it out on an 8 string if he were to try one out. Dude loves to experiment with different things. So while I think it will natural to see it used for heavy riffing, I would be really surprised if we didn't see him using it for clean playing as well.
Yeah I agree. Stylistically, I can imagine JP doing clean picking through interesting chord voicings with the 8 string.
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Why do you say that? He does TONS of clean guitar work. I see no reason to rule it out on an 8 string if he were to try one out. Dude loves to experiment with different things. So while I think it will natural to see it used for heavy riffing, I would be really surprised if we didn't see him using it for clean playing as well.
But playing high melodies and a bass line at the same time? You can do that on a 7 string too and JP has never done that, when he uses a 7 string these days it's usually for the heavier riff driven songs (The Enemy Inside, Bridges In the Sky, etc). I don't see that changing with him adding another string.
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Why do you say that? He does TONS of clean guitar work. I see no reason to rule it out on an 8 string if he were to try one out. Dude loves to experiment with different things. So while I think it will natural to see it used for heavy riffing, I would be really surprised if we didn't see him using it for clean playing as well.
Agreed. Look at all of the clean parts in A Change of Seasons. The use of extra strings doesn't always have to equate to a heavier song. To me, the mood it brings is darker more than anything else.
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That would be terrible.
And that's exactly how Megadeth's Th1rt3en ended up being, in a way.
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Myung would need a 6 string bass to play the petrucci riffs an octave lower *If he plans on octaving some of his low end riffs*
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Myung would need a 6 string bass to play the petrucci riffs an octave lower *If he plans on octaving some of his low end riffs*
But he already plays on a 6 strings... ???
B.Lee
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What is the 8th string on an 8 string ? an F# ? a C# ?
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What is the 8th string on an 8 string ? an F# ? a C# ?
Well, it's one louder, isn't it.
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F##
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What is the 8th string on an 8 string ? an F# ? a C# ?
Actually, I saw a video of a guy tuning it to E, so he could just bar chord it.
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What is the 8th string on an 8 string ? an F# ? a C# ?
Well, if it follows the pattern, it would be a G, no? Does the warp refraction threshold continue on the lower strings? I'm not sure.
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What is the 8th string on an 8 string ? an F# ? a C# ?
Well, if it follows the pattern, it would be a G, no? Does the warp refraction threshold continue on the lower strings? I'm not sure.
It's an F#. Aside from G to B, the strings all follow the same intervals.
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So then that phenomenon doesn't exist except between the third and second string?
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So then that phenomenon doesn't exist except between the third and second string?
In standard tuning, yea.
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Myung would need a 6 string bass to play the petrucci riffs an octave lower *If he plans on octaving some of his low end riffs*
But he already plays on a 6 strings... ???
B.Lee
Does he play with a low F# string though or is his sixth string a higher B on the other end?
EDIT:
Done a bit of quick research and apparently his standard tuning for most of the songs is BEADGC, so he's added a string either end, would definitely need a low F# if there's a lot of 8 string riffing on the album. I don't think he'd want to get rid of his C string either so he may end up using a 7 string bass hahaha
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Myung would need a 6 string bass to play the petrucci riffs an octave lower *If he plans on octaving some of his low end riffs*
But he already plays on a 6 strings... ???
B.Lee
Does he play with a low F# string though or is his sixth string a higher B on the other end?
I think the tuning from low to high would be BEADGC
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So then that phenomenon doesn't exist except between the third and second string?
In standard tuning, yea.
See, I learned something new today.
(https://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2712209/perfect-strangers-dance-of-joy-o.gif)
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According to this thread, it has been confirmed that JP will use a 8-string guitar on the next album.
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Myung would need a 6 string bass to play the petrucci riffs an octave lower *If he plans on octaving some of his low end riffs*
But he already plays on a 6 strings... ???
B.Lee
Does he play with a low F# string though or is his sixth string a higher B on the other end?
EDIT:
Done a bit of quick research and apparently his standard tuning for most of the songs is BEADGC, so he's added a string either end, would definitely need a low F# if there's a lot of 8 string riffing on the album. I don't think he'd want to get rid of his C string either so he may end up using a 7 string bass hahaha
A 7 string bass? Me likey! :metal :rollin
B.Lee
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Myung would need a 6 string bass to play the petrucci riffs an octave lower *If he plans on octaving some of his low end riffs*
AFAIK, Meshuggah's Dick Lovgren plays on the same octave with a dirtier sound, so the bass tone meshes together with the guitars and the whole becomes a huge wall of sound.
I think maybe Periphery uses a bass tuned an octave lower, but their sound is processed in such a way that the low end must not be prominent, so you can hear everything.
I would prefer for DT to stay over the A/Ab range on a 7 just for the sake of their live sound, but who knows what they'll do this time.
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My guess for DT14 is that it will come packaged with the Astonishing game app.
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My prediction for DT14 is that we will have to wait and see.. :chill
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My prediction for DT14 is that we will have to wait and see.. :chill
:rollin hahahaha that'll never happen.
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I predict a metric shit-ton of forced epicness.
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If it's anything like ADTOE I'd be very happy, maybe a bit more consistent but in the same vein
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I predict a metric shit-ton of forced epicness.
Are you from the future or something?
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The last time DT did a double album - half of which was loosely a concept - they followed it up with a short heavy album - Train Of Thought.
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A increasingly bigger Periphery fan, and older output Meshuggah fan; I would prefer JP to stay away from an 8 string. I embrace 7 strings fully, and the basses that can accompany them. 8 string guitar range just pushes it too far, and really nullifies the bass. At the end of the day, a big role for bass in harder rock is to double guitar riffs. My one knock on Myung is he does this too much. Yes yes, bass can do so much more and so on. But a heavy riff is heavier doubled by a bass. And the point of the bass was to fill out that lower frequency, not have it taken over by guitar.
Meshuggah sounds mostly like garbage since Nothing IMO. Some of that is tone, but another is actually the limitations I feel they impose by using 8 strings all the time. Their riffs are mostly single note, octave based stuff, with some random notes to make it atonal. I mean, Dehumanization, Rational Gaze, and Demiurge all have pronounced octave riffs. In the case of the last two, they dominate their songs. They ride the low F so much, vs. using maybe low B or the either low E string from time to time. Their song "I" is actually a better usage of 8 strings, in that they mix in riffs on different strings. But songs like "I" are more of the exception to them IMO.
The strange thing is that Periphery is not really heavier vs. Meshuggah when they go 8 string, considering Nolly tunes an octave lower as mentioned. Certainly Nolly has some in depth mixing with his tone. https://youtu.be/lMxbP1V3WBo?t=4m40s. But to me, it shows that enough is enough- we cannot easily discern the difference between an F1 guitar and an F0 bass note with the Periphery approach compared to the Meshuggah same octave approach. Especially when distortion is thrown in. The other problem is chordal options are limited as well. Bass players have known this for a long time, low chords are used very sparingly. So what is the point?
Between Jordan's left hand and JP's 8-string, I think JM might as well not show up anymore.
:-[ :'( My fear exactly. His bass went out during the Astonishing show I saw, and I could not even hear a difference.
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His bass went out during the Astonishing show I saw, and I could not even hear a difference.
That's unfortunate. In the show I went to, JM was loud and clear.
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A increasingly bigger Periphery fan, and older output Meshuggah fan; I would prefer JP to stay away from an 8 string. I embrace 7 strings fully, and the basses that can accompany them. 8 string guitar range just pushes it too far, and really nullifies the bass. At the end of the day, a big role for bass in harder rock is to double guitar riffs. My one knock on Myung is he does this too much. Yes yes, bass can do so much more and so on. But a heavy riff is heavier doubled by a bass. And the point of the bass was to fill out that lower frequency, not have it taken over by guitar.
Meshuggah sounds mostly like garbage since Nothing IMO. Some of that is tone, but another is actually the limitations I feel they impose by using 8 strings all the time. Their riffs are mostly single note, octave based stuff, with some random notes to make it atonal. I mean, Dehumanization, Rational Gaze, and Demiurge all have pronounced octave riffs. In the case of the last two, they dominate their songs. They ride the low F so much, vs. using maybe low B or the either low E string from time to time. Their song "I" is actually a better usage of 8 strings, in that they mix in riffs on different strings. But songs like "I" are more of the exception to them IMO.
The strange thing is that Periphery is not really heavier vs. Meshuggah when they go 8 string, considering Nolly tunes an octave lower as mentioned. Certainly Nolly has some in depth mixing with his tone. https://youtu.be/lMxbP1V3WBo?t=4m40s. But to me, it shows that enough is enough- we cannot easily discern the difference between an F1 guitar and an F0 bass note with the Periphery approach compared to the Meshuggah same octave approach. Especially when distortion is thrown in. The other problem is chordal options are limited as well. Bass players have known this for a long time, low chords are used very sparingly. So what is the point?
Between Jordan's left hand and JP's 8-string, I think JM might as well not show up anymore.
:-[ :'( My fear exactly. His bass went out during the Astonishing show I saw, and I could not even hear a difference.
Sad. His bass playing was barely audible on TA.
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His bass playing was barely audible on TA.
It depends on your sound system. Unfortunately, I feel like his bass is pretty low in the mix on this album in general. But if you are listening on a system where you can hear him, he is doing some REALLY cool stuff.
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His bass playing was barely audible on TA.
It depends on your sound system. Unfortunately, I feel like his bass is pretty low in the mix on this album in general. But if you are listening on a system where you can hear him, he is doing some REALLY cool stuff.
I know this is the old fart in me but I miss the days of separation of instruments. I want to soak it all in from every instrument.
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His bass playing was barely audible on TA.
It depends on your sound system. Unfortunately, I feel like his bass is pretty low in the mix on this album in general. But if you are listening on a system where you can hear him, he is doing some REALLY cool stuff.
I know this is the old fart in me but I miss the days of separation of instruments. I want to soak it all in from every instrument.
Yes, but...in those same days you are pining for, the bass was often buried in the mix on a lot of albums simply because the bass player was low in the mix and just playing root notes most of the time.
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Maybe I was drawn to bands like Yes, Rush where the bass was in the forefront and I'm projecting my preference. The 80's I agree is when the lines were blurred and certain instruments were lost in the mix.
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So true. I can't even hear any guitar on those 80's Rush albums. ;D
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Rush had a guitar player in the 80s? I thought they replaced him with a synthesizer.
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So true. I can't even hear any guitar on those 80's Rush albums. ;D
You silly ninny. Those are the best examples of separation! :lol
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So true. I can't even hear any guitar on those 80's Rush albums. ;D
You silly ninny. Those are the best examples of separation! :lol
Yup, separating the guitar player from the rest of the band!
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IT's not my Rush. Boo hoo. :lol
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(https://i.imgflip.com/2sh81.jpg)
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:lol
Exactly.
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His bass playing was barely audible on TA.
It depends on your sound system. Unfortunately, I feel like his bass is pretty low in the mix on this album in general. But if you are listening on a system where you can hear him, he is doing some REALLY cool stuff.
I agree with the bass being very low in the mix and that's very unfortunate. I can hear it but it's unusual to have it that low. The bass and drums could be improved in the mix imo.
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In fact JP will play a 8 string guitar and JM will play the guitar ! :D
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The last time DT did a double album - half of which was loosely a concept - they followed it up with a short heavy album - Train Of Thought.
This would be great. I didn't particularly care for the concept part of 6 Degrees and I completely dislike Astonishing. However, I LOVE Train of Thought. Probably my second fav DT album after Awake
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I'm not so sure I would rely on TOT for the expectation of a "short" heavy album. TOT was just shy of 70 minutes. :lol
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I'm not so sure I would rely on TOT for the expectation of a "short" heavy album. TOT was just shy of 70 minutes. :lol
I meant primarily in the number of tracks. The least number of tracks for a DT album at the time.
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I'm not so sure I would rely on TOT for the expectation of a "short" heavy album. TOT was just shy of 70 minutes. :lol
Isn't it still one of the shorter DT albums?
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I'm not so sure I would rely on TOT for the expectation of a "short" heavy album. TOT was just shy of 70 minutes. :lol
Isn't it still one of the shorter DT albums?
3rd shortest. WDADU and I&W are both shorter.
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I'm not so sure I would rely on TOT for the expectation of a "short" heavy album. TOT was just shy of 70 minutes. :lol
Isn't it still one of the shorter DT albums?
3rd shortest. WDADU and I&W are both shorter.
DT12 is 68 minutes, or are we ignoring that album exists?
Because I'd be ok with that.
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I'm not so sure I would rely on TOT for the expectation of a "short" heavy album. TOT was just shy of 70 minutes. :lol
Isn't it still one of the shorter DT albums?
3rd shortest. WDADU and I&W are both shorter.
DT12 is 68 minutes, or are we ignoring that album exists?
Because I'd be ok with that.
I tend to do that.
However, in this case it was the only album that didn't list a total run time on Wikipedia, so I just assumed DT did a normal 77 or so minute album.
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The total runtime is listed at the top of the page, but not with the tracklist. I distinctly remember at the time DTF making a big deal out of the fact it was only around 70 minutes. :lol
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I distinctly remember at the time DTF making a big deal out of the fact....
It's DTF : "making a big deal out of the fact" since the beginnings. :rollin :rollin :rollin
B.Lee
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The total runtime is listed at the top of the page, but not with the tracklist. I distinctly remember at the time DTF making a big deal out of the fact it was only around 70 minutes. :lol
I remember that too. Biggest forum panic since Portnoy left.
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Jeez I remember.
2 minutes shy of an hour and twenty minutes is too short :lol !!!
I'd be more than happy if the new Metallica album run to 50 minutes instead of 80.
It would mean we'd probably be getting an album that's all great music and not a lot of fat on it.
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Shorter albums sometimes leave you wanting more but there's generally a far better chance of there being more quality than filler
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I just listened to DT12. I like the conciseness of the album, I think STR could've been expanded though.
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Nope.
I do like DT12. The snare sound brings it down a bit. The album is overall a bit hot and Illumination Theory is a bit disjointed.
I really do not like Along For The Ride or Surrender though...
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Nope.
I do like DT12. The snare sound brings it down a bit. The album is overall a bit hot and Illumination Theory is a bit disjointed.
I really do not like Along For The Ride or Surrender though...
Really? I quite enjoyed Surrender. I actually have some problems with the track, but once it gets jamming - it's probably a top 75 or 50 for me. To me, it's on the better side of DT. I only cared for Surrender, IT (don't care for the middle), TEI (kind of) and FAS. Much preferred ADOTE/TA over 12.
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Less quantity doesn't directly imply better quality.. For instance, albums like SDoiT and TA are extremely long and they're both excellent works... OTOH, WD&DU is the shortest DT album, and if not THE least loved, at least one of them, by the majority..
I mean, the longest DT songs are also the most loved aren't they?.. And then you have the case of DT12, that was -unfairly- judged and criticized by its "short" lenght... I remember some even saying they didn't develop the ideas... even regarding IT, being a 22 minute song!.. :lol
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In theory though if they have the same level of inspiration on the next album but the album is half the length the album would be of a more consistent quality..
Interesting fact: just listening back to IT I noticed the start of Surrender, Trust and Passion has the exact same melody as the vocal ending of the astonishing! "Eternally, in harmony, our lives will be astonishing" section... You can literally sing those lyrics over it! Anyone else notice that?
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Interesting fact: just listening back to IT I noticed the start of Surrender, Trust and Passion has the exact same melody as the vocal ending of the astonishing! "Eternally, in harmony, our lives will be astonishing" section... You can literally sing those lyrics over it! Anyone else notice that?
Yeah, I have, from the beginning, as soon as I heard the melody in Dystopian Overture.. Actually they're not exactly the same, but until some point they are..
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For The Record - I was talking about Surrender to Reason and not any portion of Illumination Theory.
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Up to SC, I was eagerly waiting for a new DT album for the songs but also for what the individual instruments would come up with. Needless to say, MP's drum parts and JP's parts were the ones I could not wait to hear. Now, I'm waiting for the songs, for JP's parts but no more for the drums. And that's a shame, because I would like to. Unfortunately, I feel that the drums and bass now function as in an orchestra : you know there here but don't really care for them as prominence is taken so much by other instruments. I wish there wuold be a shift for the next album to more upfront drums and bass.
B.Lee
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Idk about the drums, I think they're fine.. But the bass certainly has to have more presence..
In fact, just to give one example, we don't have JM starting a song since several albums already.. The last time he did that was on In the Presence of Enemies, or Panic Attack for a bass start with more impact..
Either way, if we're wishing a ToT kind of album, then we're in part wishing the drums and bass to have more presence... aren't we?..
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I've had a few friends over that brought some of their friends with them about a year ago. We had a great time rockin out to different cd's with DT12 being one of them. I haven't been able to find that CD since, it just mysteriously disappeared. I haven't bought a new one in hopes that it will turn up someday. I now have accepted the fact that it is gone. I really want to hear it after its absence for a year, so now I have to buy it again. I hope who ever has is enjoying it and not using it for target practice or bird deterrents on airplane hangars etc..
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Bummer. I loaned mine out awhile ago, and after the person I loaned it to failed to return it after 6 months, I went and bought another copy. 6 months after that, he returned it. :lol
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Off topic, but I never ever loan my CDs again, as a "friend" of mine borrowed me 4 and never returned them. When I asked him to return my CDs-after at least 3 years (see, I have been patient)- he decided not to speak to me anymore. :tdwn
B.Lee
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Damn. it seems if you loan out something to somebody, after a period of time goes by they think it is theirs. Not only with cd's, but tools too.
On another note, I bought a second copy of The Astonishing and gave it to a friend for a gift. He said he would listen to it on the road as he drives long truck routes for a living and is also a rock musician. We'll here it is 8 months later and he still hasen't taken it out of the plastic package.. WEAK!
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Up to SC, I was eagerly waiting for a new DT album for the songs but also for what the individual instruments would come up with. Needless to say, MP's drum parts and JP's parts were the ones I could not wait to hear. Now, I'm waiting for the songs, for JP's parts but no more for the drums. And that's a shame, because I would like to. Unfortunately, I feel that the drums and bass now function as in an orchestra : you know there here but don't really care for them as prominence is taken so much by other instruments. I wish there wuold be a shift for the next album to more upfront drums and bass.
B.Lee
Unfortunately, I feel that JM is there to be "felt" rather than seen or heard. Especially live, maybe you can feel the bass thumping in your chest rather than hear it.
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The best I've ever heard J Myung in the mix was the Progressive Nation Systematic Chaos tour. All other tours he was pretty much drown out.
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In regards to JM in the mix at live shows, it's always pretty much dependent on where I've been sitting in the venue. At shows that I've sat near the board, I can usually hear him great. Other times when I've been close to the stage the sound tends to be dominated by drums and guitar (obviously making the most actual noise on stage).
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Off topic, but I never ever loan my CDs again, as a "friend" of mine borrowed me 4 and never returned them. When I asked him to return my CDs-after at least 3 years (see, I have been patient)- he decided not to speak to me anymore. :tdwn
B.Lee
I have learned my lesson a long time ago. I think it was in 1980, the boyfriend of a cousin wanted to borrow some of my albums for a party and one of them, Led Zeppelin's The song remains the same returned to me with scratches everywhere. I have always pay a lot of care to my vinyles.
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Well, I was not sure where the 8 string talk started- it seemed like it was what someone thought would happen?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/35a7c6/hi_im_brian_ball_president_of_ernie_ball_music/cr2lok9?st=itf8cv7k&sh=9f732274 (https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/35a7c6/hi_im_brian_ball_president_of_ernie_ball_music/cr2lok9?st=itf8cv7k&sh=9f732274)
I will take this as a confirmation.
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I was at JP's Music Man presentation at Sam Ash in Hollywood today - they unofficially announced a JP fanned-fret 8 string guitar in the works. JP said, and I'm quoting here, "I want to take my 8 string Music Man guitar into the studio and write the new Dream Theater masterpiece with it."
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I was at JP's Music Man presentation at Sam Ash in Hollywood today - they unofficially announced a JP fanned-fret 8 string guitar in the works. JP said, and I'm quoting here, "I want to take my 8 string Music Man guitar into the studio and write the new Dream Theater masterpiece with it."
Well there you go! Interesting to see what JP comes up with...
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I'm as interested to see what Myung does- same octave, or go below and modify a 6 string (or 7?) Then his sound in the mix and actual playing. He could always do some counter to the low riffs.
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I'm not sold on the 8-string guitar. Will wait and see what he comes up with for the next DT.
B.Lee
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Another heavy album please.
But no DJENT!!!
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Another heavy album please.
But no DJENT!!!
But...but...John Petrucci is a perfect djentleman.
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Another heavy album please.
But no DJENT!!!
But...but...John Petrucci is a bearded djentleman.
FTFY :hat
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Oops. That's actually what I meant to say. :lol
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Oops. That's actually what I meant to say. :lol
Unfortunately, it was! :lol :lol :lol
B.Lee
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In fact, just to give one example, we don't have JM starting a song since several albums already.. The last time he did that was on In the Presence of Enemies, or Panic Attack for a bass start with more impact..
Song beginnings are exceedingly likely to be started by one of the songwriters' instruments, mainly because it's more often than not the seed (or a variation thereof) that then became the song.
If you listen to TA, each song that isn't started by the full album is either started by guitar or keys, for that reason.
For the same reason, when MP was still around for the songwriting, you'd get an occasional song that was started by drums (6:00, HTF, TAMP). That has not happened since the switch.
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^
Interesting, I never looked at it like that. That makes sense; JM's one known song with him having some ideas was Lifting Shadows.
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In fact, just to give one example, we don't have JM starting a song since several albums already.. The last time he did that was on In the Presence of Enemies, or Panic Attack for a bass start with more impact..
Song beginnings are exceedingly likely to be started by one of the songwriters' instruments, mainly because it's more often than not the seed (or a variation thereof) that then became the song.
If you listen to TA, each song that isn't started by the full album is either started by guitar or keys, for that reason.
For the same reason, when MP was still around for the songwriting, you'd get an occasional song that was started by drums (6:00, HTF, TAMP). That has not happened since the switch.
You're right.. Also, another factor is JM's shyness.. But we definitely need some of that again, as well as one MM's intro.. In fact the two beginnings that you can barely say the drum is starting the song since he's in the band are BMU, BMB and Outcry, and in both cases there are actually digital drums doing those parts.. :-\
Interesting, I never looked at it like that. That makes sense; JM's one known song with him having some ideas was Lifting Shadows.
Hmm, Idk.. He's credited way more than that.. I wanna think he has contributed, in a way, at least with some percentage in about half of DT's songs.. Otherwise they wouldn't have reasons to establish the "Myung, Petrucci, Portnoy, Rudess," in the credits of a lot of songs... not mentioning the ones in which is a sure thing he participated, like Vacant, the ones in ADToE/DT12 or the songs he wrote the lyrics..
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Interesting, I never looked at it like that. That makes sense; JM's one known song with him having some ideas was Lifting Shadows.
Hmm, Idk.. He's credited way more than that.. I wanna think he has contributed, in a way, at least with some percentage in about half of DT's songs.. Otherwise they wouldn't have reasons to establish the "Myung, Petrucci, Portnoy, Rudess," in the credits of a lot of songs... not mentioning the ones in which is a sure thing he participated, like Vacant, the ones in ADToE/DT12 or the songs he wrote the lyrics..
I didn't mean his only one idea. I meant his one big song, or at least one of them. It has been made clear his other contributions.
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Interesting, I never looked at it like that. That makes sense; JM's one known song with him having some ideas was Lifting Shadows.
Hmm, Idk.. He's credited way more than that.. I wanna think he has contributed, in a way, at least with some percentage in about half of DT's songs.. Otherwise they wouldn't have reasons to establish the "Myung, Petrucci, Portnoy, Rudess," in the credits of a lot of songs... not mentioning the ones in which is a sure thing he participated, like Vacant, the ones in ADToE/DT12 or the songs he wrote the lyrics..
I didn't mean his only one idea. I meant his one big song, or at least one of them. It has been made clear his other contributions.
I see.. I never knew he was the main composer of that song, but somehow makes sense..
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Also we can hear the band members crediting JM for a lot of cool riffs in the LSFNY commentary. (riff post verse 2 in SDV, middle riff in BTL etc.)
JR : "When JM speaks.........we listen!"
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Whatever DT14 is can it have way more chocolate cake, ass, balls? :mehlin
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Whatever DT14 is can it have way more chocolate cake, ass, balls? :mehlin
There are certainly many fans hoping for something different, something that sounds like a prog metal band.
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Also we can hear the band members crediting JM for a lot of cool riffs in the LSFNY commentary. (riff post verse 2 in SDV, middle riff in BTL etc.)
JR : "When JM speaks.........we listen!"
Also Sprach Myung.
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Whatever DT14 is can it have way more chocolate cake, ass, balls? :mehlin
There are certainly many fans hoping for something different, something that sounds like a prog metal band.
I don't think so.. The last couple of albums were prog metal enough for a band that doesn't need to demonstrate they're just a "prog metal band".. They're in another state now.. Doing a lot of things more than what they did before.. I'd say DT fans in general are more inclined to like the diversity and innovation against the mediocrity and predictable an only "prog metal" album would have..
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Sonics of The Astonishing please but slightly rockier overall.
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Hope JP takes the bait from Maiden and Meshuggah and they record (basic tracks at least) live in the studio. If there's one band that (a) has amazing ability to show off; and (b) does not benefit at all from the lack of feel that over-clean production gives; it's DT. Especially post-MP. They really need to push MM to the front and make it sound natural and authentic, IMO.
And short too. Really, almost no-one EVER has enough juice in the tank to make a double (6doit the only exception I can think of atm)
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Hope JP takes the bait from Maiden and Meshuggah and they record (basic tracks at least) live in the studio. If there's one band that (a) has amazing ability to show off; and (b) does not benefit at all from the lack of feel that over-clean production gives; it's DT. Especially post-MP. They really need to push MM to the front and make it sound natural and authentic, IMO.
And short too. Really, almost no-one EVER has enough juice in the tank to make a double (6doit the only exception I can think of atm)
Yes, but 6DoIT is 2 different discs, TA is one single story throughout, which may not help (even if I like the album a lot). I may sound a little pessimistic, but I don't see any change coming our way. They sound too clinical these days, but the trend was not initiated when MM joined, it began with SC, IMO.
B.Lee
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I hope they completely alienate EVERYONE and record an album that doesn't resemble there usual sound, but keep the complexity. Take all the elements of their sound they known for (both positively and negatively) and flip it on it's head. :D
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I really hope we get more from JM and MM this time, it seems like they have a great chemistry, and parts of DT12 where it was only drums and bass were very cool.
Also, i hope for more JLB involvement in the lyrics department, he is a good lyricist and JP seems to have a tendency towards cheesy lyrics in the recent years, so i would love more diversity in terms of lyrics. Also, less forced epicness and grandiose song closures would be very welcome.
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I hope they completely alienate EVERYONE and record an album that doesn't resemble there usual sound, but keep the complexity. Take all the elements of their sound they known for (both positively and negatively) and flip it on it's head. :D
That's what I've been hoping for forever, but it's exceedingly unlikely to happen at this point I think. The adjustments to their sound have been incremental at best over the years.
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While I would have no objection to a complete curve ball of an album, the band's usual approach of putting a more minor twist on their core sound with each new record is usually more than enough for me. While the changes don't always seem all that significant at first, if you compare albums with several years between them, you realize that DT have actually done a really nice job of trying out new things. I know quite a few metal heads who love Train of Thought and the self-titled but don't really enjoy Falling into Infinity or The Astonishing because they're simply not heavy enough.
In fairness to the band, I also think that the difference between DT12 and TA was quite drastic. On a one to five scale of "We're experimenting with our sound, maaaaaan" where a 1/5 is Ride the Lightning -> Master of Puppets and a 5/5 is Watershed -> Heritage, I'd say that DT12 -> TA was a solid 4/5. Between the shorter songs, lighter tone, cheesier lyrics, and increased acoustic playing, it feels like a very different record to me, at least.
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I'm totally on board with the songwriting shakeup on TA, but sound-wise I frankly hear virtually no difference in the 3 MM-era albums. Sure, TA isn't as brickwalled as DT12, but the instruments overall sound exactly the same. IMHO.
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I feel the band would have never done what they have if they hadn't continued the momentum.
The thing with Mancini is he plays to suit the music, which ends up blending with the melodies and patterns. His parts are great and I love when I can enjoy the songs melodies while having a nice drum beat and bass to go with it.
I'm hoping they'll try something new studio wise. Producer, mixing and all that fun stuff.
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I'm pretty sure they're gonna go really heavy next time (which is a shame IMO). I'd lose my shit if they announced The Astonishing Part 2....
I think there's more chance of MP rejoining and the next record being a hip-hop opera, sadly. One can at least dream.
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I'm totally on board with the songwriting shakeup on TA, but sound-wise I frankly hear virtually no difference in the 3 MM-era albums. Sure, TA isn't as brickwalled as DT12, but the instruments overall sound exactly the same. IMHO.
On a global view, maaaaybe, but in details I disagree :)
Technically, we feel less differences between albums because volume war and hardware are not changing as drastically as in 90's.
JP has his sound, and I think the mark2c+ is here to stay :)
Rudess used much more "liquid tension" or "solo" sounds on TA than before.
But mainly mangini, I can't tell for TA since only the best fills stand out, else it's buried. But I don't think at all his sound his the same between ADTOE and DT12, I personnaly prefered the first one.
I hope DT14 will be produced way more groovy, and with a blasty drum, not a clickety feeling :)
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I hope DT14 will be produced way more groovy, and with a blasty drum, not a clickety feeling :)
Yes. In fairness though, this isn't really an MM-specific issue. IMO, even though MP is a very groovy, hard-hitting, bombastic drummer, DT hasn't got a GREAT drum sound on record since SDOIT. I think the ToT sound was a little muffled, Oct was a little flat, SC was a little to hot on the kick, and BC&SL sounded very close mic'd like there was no room sound.
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I hope DT14 will be produced way more groovy, and with a blasty drum, not a clickety feeling :)
Yes. In fairness though, this isn't really an MM-specific issue. IMO, even though MP is a very groovy, hard-hitting, bombastic drummer, DT hasn't got a GREAT drum sound on record since SDOIT. I think the ToT sound was a little muffled, Oct was a little flat, SC was a little to hot on the kick, and BC&SL sounded very close mic'd like there was no room sound.
That's true, after SDOIT MP's sound passed through different phases, but still i think it was a lot better than MM's, especially on the cymbal department, that's my main problem with the last albums. And sure i would welcome a more organic sound since MM plays with a lot of dynamics.
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That's true, after SDOIT MP's sound passed through different phases, but still i think it was a lot better than MM's, especially on the cymbal department, that's my main problem with the last albums. And sure i would welcome a more organic sound since MM plays with a lot of dynamics.
Oh I agree, it just thought it was worth mentioning that MP didn't always have some incredible studio sound either. MP's cymbals definitely sounded better than MM's that seems to still be a struggle for DT in the MM era, the cymbal sound. I guess MP being mixed WAY louder helped in that department a little.
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That's true, after SDOIT MP's sound passed through different phases, but still i think it was a lot better than MM's, especially on the cymbal department, that's my main problem with the last albums. And sure i would welcome a more organic sound since MM plays with a lot of dynamics.
Oh I agree, it just thought it was worth mentioning that MP didn't always have some incredible studio sound either. MP's cymbals definitely sounded better than MM's that seems to still be a struggle for DT in the MM era, the cymbal sound. I guess MP being mixed WAY louder helped in that department a little.
Plus, his drumkit isn't constructed the same way. Which I think may be causing the low cymbal sound, or is hard to capture in studio recordings.
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Plus, his drumkit isn't constructed the same way. Which I think may be causing the low cymbal sound, or is hard to capture in studio recordings.
Yup, I actually think that has a lot to do with it.
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I don't fault MM either in that department because he never really was part of a band, or a member as much as he is in DT now. He barely finally got use his dream kit, and has since experimented with it. He doesn't have his own drum sound but he does have his own uniqueness of his musical knowledge.
I hope he finds a way to get that good Tom sound with the cymbals intact.
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With DT12 and TA being very melodic, chocolate-y and everything, I hope DT14 to be a little more heavy as well. And I really am not a metal fan. As always it would be great to have some concrete MM/JM contributions, but I'm pretty sure I (and everyone else) said that the last two times. I wasn't so stunned by Myungs Surrender To Reason lyrics though.
I think MMs Drum sound on TA was an improvement after DT12 (wich probably had the worst Snare drum sound ever to me), but I still think it could sound a little more organic. Have you guys seen MMs video where he plays The Enemy Inside on YouTube? Drums sound so natural, suddenly the song started to groove way better. Also I feel that his cymbals could take a slightly more prominent role in the sound.
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As much as I like Portnoy and have the upmost respect for him it would be interesting and maybe refreshing hearing a heavy DT album without his vocal lines and input, since he left they haven't gone too heavy but I think it would definitely be the right move for them at this point, as someone said before the cinematic tracks are becoming a little overdone. Creating something a bit more raw would help, and I believe less overdubs and layering would create far more opportunity to hear individual instruments more pronounced and clear (Especially the bass)
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I don't fault MM either in that department because he never really was part of a band, or a member as much as he is in DT now. He barely finally got use his dream kit, and has since experimented with it. He doesn't have his own drum sound but he does have his own uniqueness of his musical knowledge.
I possibly could have bought into that argument after ADTOE, and indeed I (and many others) were very protective of him after that album. However, he has been a fulltime drummer for 5 years now, is a Berklee professor, and has played with Vai, Extreme, Annihilator etc. There is just no argument you can make that he is too "inexperienced" to have a good drum sound.
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I hope they completely alienate EVERYONE and record an album that doesn't resemble there usual sound, but keep the complexity. Take all the elements of their sound they known for (both positively and negatively) and flip it on it's head. :D
Absolutely this. The guys in DT are arguably some of the most talented rock musicians on the planet. But they are getting older and closer to the end of their careers. The Astonishing was a great step in the right direction, but I'd love to see them push themselves further, maybe in a completely new direction. Problem is I think James is the limiting factor (as good as he was on TA).
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I for one love what they did with TA... it is now my favorite album of theirs (been a fan since I&W was released).
Not sure I would want a TA part 2 though. The thing with TA was that it was so unexpected, new and fresh. Another one in that line would not be as fresh.
I just hope that they do whatever they want to do as a group. I am pretty sure that I will at least like it whatever they choose to do. No hopes of the next one ever topping TA for me though.
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I for one love what they did with TA... it is now my favorite album of theirs (been a fan since I&W was released).
Not sure I would want a TA part 2 though. The thing with TA was that it was so unexpected, new and fresh. Another one in that line would not be as fresh.
I just hope that they do whatever they want to do as a group. I am pretty sure that I will at least like it whatever they choose to do. No hopes of the next one ever topping TA for me though.
I don't think anyone expects another TA, just something that is at least as big a surprise, but in a different direction.
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I've said it before, but they will need to do something HUGE and drastic for the next album. Whether a fan of it or not, I feel they need to do a Train of Thought type album to show everyone they still have their metal balls! That should bring back a good portion of those who have dismissed the last album or two.
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I've said it before, but they will need to do something HUGE and drastic for the next album. Whether a fan of it or not, I feel they need to do a Train of Thought type album to show everyone they still have their metal balls! That should bring back a good portion of those who have dismissed the last album or two.
And alienate another portion that didn't like ToT because of its heaviness (of which I am not a part because I absolutely loved ToT).
B.Lee
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I've said it before, but they will need to do something HUGE and drastic for the next album.
I don't get this sentiment.
Didn't they just do something "HUGE and drastic"?
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I've said it before, but they will need to do something HUGE and drastic for the next album.
I don't get this sentiment.
Didn't they just do something "HUGE and drastic"?
Yes.
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I've said it before, but they will need to do something HUGE and drastic for the next album.
I don't get this sentiment.
Didn't they just do something "HUGE and drastic"?
Yes. But it didn't fit his specific tastes. Therefore, the band were wrong and must do something huger. And drasticker.
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DT14
HUGER AND DRASTICKER
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Oh, man! JP's gonna be pissed when he finds out I accidentally leaked the title! :ontome:
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I hope TA was the beginning of a "fuck it, we do as we please" phase for DT. I might not have liked the result, but TA was daring, and that's good.
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They are at the best point in their career for that.
At this point they have enough albums and different periods that there's always going to be fans who think they lost it, no matter what they put out. They have also been around long enough that their hardcore fans probably aren't going anywhere. Might as well use that to their advantage and continue defying expectations.
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I hope TA was the beginning of a "fuck it, we do as we please" phase for DT. I might not have liked the result, but TA was daring, and that's good.
Judging by the discussion about ticket sales, I'm not sure they can afford to say "fuck it, we do as we please" for too long.
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I hope TA was the beginning of a "fuck it, we do as we please" phase for DT. I might not have liked the result, but TA was daring, and that's good.
Sign me in!
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I hope TA was the beginning of a "fuck it, we do as we please" phase for DT. I might not have liked the result, but TA was daring, and that's good.
Judging by the discussion about ticket sales, I'm not sure they can afford to say "fuck it, we do as we please" for too long.
Ehh at least they tried.
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I hope TA was the beginning of a "fuck it, we do as we please" phase for DT. I might not have liked the result, but TA was daring, and that's good.
Judging by the discussion about ticket sales, I'm not sure they can afford to say "fuck it, we do as we please" for too long.
Yeah but the first US leg sold well, it's just the random second leg that isn't. So I think the low ticket sales we are seeing now have more to do with other factors like small markets, exact same show, etc... than it does with the band doing something different.
If they would have only done one US leg, we wouldn't even be having the conversation.
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I'm hoping DT14 is like Train of Thought and Awake...dark, heavy, intense. Though, they haven't gone that way since that drummer left, so I don't know.
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I'm hoping DT14 is like Train of Thought and Awake...dark, heavy, intense. Though, they haven't gone that way since that drummer left, so I don't know.
I agree. And DT have been kinda reactionary throughout their history in that way. ToT was followed by Oct. Oct. was followed by SC. They do have a history of putting out one specific type of album and then following it up with a very different type of album.
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When does it become that time of year where everyone makes the new-fic album covers?
;)
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(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/ta2_zpsp3xcfmzf.jpg)
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(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/ta2_zpsp3xcfmzf.jpg)
8/10 would buy
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As much as I like Portnoy and have the upmost respect for him it would be interesting and maybe refreshing hearing a heavy DT album without his vocal lines and input, since he left they haven't gone too heavy but I think it would definitely be the right move for them at this point, as someone said before the cinematic tracks are becoming a little overdone. Creating something a bit more raw would help, and I believe less overdubs and layering would create far more opportunity to hear individual instruments more pronounced and clear (Especially the bass)
Yes, this for sure. Rawer, less overdubs, less of the orchestral sounds (I love them but they were very prominent on the last 3 albums). Time for some pure rock without the over-production.
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(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/rumborak/ta2_zpsp3xcfmzf.jpg)
Looks like fantasy has really grew on DT :mehlin
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They are at the best point in their career for that.
Not really :facepalm:
How can you say that with at most 25% capacity at US shows????
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I'm hoping DT14 is like Train of Thought and Awake...dark, heavy, intense.
THIS 1000%! DT14 needs to bring people back, not continuing to turn fans away.
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This might be a silly question but the thought crossed my mind. Do you think they're "too old" to be making extremely heavy albums like Train of Thought? Do you think that they're more likely to make something a bit lighter like ADTOE?
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This might be a silly question but the thought crossed my mind. Do you think they're "too old" to be making extremely heavy albums like Train of Thought? Do you think that they're more likely to make something a bit lighter like ADTOE?
Honestly, since it seems that JP will be using an 8 string, I'm guessing he will use it for heavy as well as lighter stuff, which doesn't exclude a ToT-like album. But maybe I'm wrong.
B.Lee
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This might be a silly question but the thought crossed my mind. Do you think they're "too old" to be making extremely heavy albums like Train of Thought?
Not at all. The Enemy Inside is easily one of their heaviest songs, and that's pretty recent.
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They had a number of pretty heavy songs on the two albums before TA.
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ADTOE was really heavy in places actually. It's just the crips and keyboard-heavy production aswell as the softer drum sound that makes it seem less in-your-face.
I actually love this style of mixing for DT. Works really well on both ADTOE and Octavarium imho.
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I'm not really talking about some random heavy songs. Train of Thought was, from its onset, an album that they deliberately wanted to be heavy and dark all around. The same thing could be said for Awake. I'm just wondering if it's still in them to go that direction with the music as a whole again.
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I'm not really talking about some random heavy songs. Train of Thought was, from its onset, an album that they deliberately wanted to be heavy and dark all around. The same thing could be said for Awake. I'm just wondering if it's still in them to go that direction with the music as a whole again.
Why? There's no need to re-hash those albums. The current balanced style is much better.
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I'm not really talking about some random heavy songs. Train of Thought was, from its onset, an album that they deliberately wanted to be heavy and dark all around. The same thing could be said for Awake. I'm just wondering if it's still in them to go that direction with the music as a whole again.
Awake was not that heavy as a whole i think, it's just a production thing. It was heavy, but it's not less heavy to ADTOE let's say, it's just the production (especially the guitars) that makes it heavier in sound.
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I'm not really talking about some random heavy songs. Train of Thought was, from its onset, an album that they deliberately wanted to be heavy and dark all around. The same thing could be said for Awake. I'm just wondering if it's still in them to go that direction with the music as a whole again.
Awake was not that heavy as a whole i think, it's just a production thing. It was heavy, but it's not less heavy to ADTOE let's say, it's just the production (especially the guitars) that makes it heavier in sound.
I think it goes beyond production, I would definitely call ADOTE more proggier and lighter than Awake. I agree that ADOTE has heavy moments, however. But lie/the mirror are heavier than anything on ADOTE... right? Dark, heavy and moody.
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I'm not really talking about some random heavy songs. Train of Thought was, from its onset, an album that they deliberately wanted to be heavy and dark all around. The same thing could be said for Awake. I'm just wondering if it's still in them to go that direction with the music as a whole again.
Awake was not that heavy as a whole i think, it's just a production thing. It was heavy, but it's not less heavy to ADTOE let's say, it's just the production (especially the guitars) that makes it heavier in sound.
Heavy and dark. There was an overall mood to the album. I felt the same mood with Train of Thought, though ToT was a bit more relentless, especially with some of the lyrical content.
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Heavy and dark. There was an overall mood to the album. I felt the same mood with Train of Thought, though ToT was a bit more relentless, especially with some of the lyrical content.
I know what you're saying and yeah I think they could make something similar in mood and style if they wanted to.
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Heavy and dark. There was an overall mood to the album. I felt the same mood with Train of Thought, though ToT was a bit more relentless, especially with some of the lyrical content.
I know what you're saying and yeah I think they could make something similar in mood and style if they wanted to.
It would be hard to replicate the darkness of Awake because, from my appreciation, it comes from genuine angst. It's a product of both the early 1990s era of angsty music and the point of life the band members were in at the time. The members seem to be genuinely at a peaceful moment in their life right now, so it's hard to imagine them doing something like Awake now.
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I'm not really talking about some random heavy songs. Train of Thought was, from its onset, an album that they deliberately wanted to be heavy and dark all around. The same thing could be said for Awake. I'm just wondering if it's still in them to go that direction with the music as a whole again.
Awake was not that heavy as a whole i think, it's just a production thing. It was heavy, but it's not less heavy to ADTOE let's say, it's just the production (especially the guitars) that makes it heavier in sound.
Heavy and dark. There was an overall mood to the album. I felt the same mood with Train of Thought, though ToT was a bit more relentless, especially with some of the lyrical content.
I agree with Prog Snob. The atmosphere to Awake was extremely moody. Heck, even Space Dye Vest to me, has a really dark atmosphere and even Lifting Shadows Off a Dream to me was a beautiful song, yet had this angsty feeling to me. Train of Thought to me didn't match the moodiness to me as Awake has, but it was still really heavy.
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ADTOE was a pretty good album. Certainly not heavy enough for some but a lot of prog mood so I really enjoyed it. DT12 may be heavy enough but less prog mood so for me it was not as good. Recently I have been listening more to it and I like it better.
I don't think they have to come up necessaraly with a super heavy album. But a good mix of heavy and prog is what would please me. They are getting older (not old) and it will show for sure but not as much as we would think. Anyway, I'm not afraid of their capacity of making very good and great music for many years to come.
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Heavy and dark. There was an overall mood to the album. I felt the same mood with Train of Thought, though ToT was a bit more relentless, especially with some of the lyrical content.
I know what you're saying and yeah I think they could make something similar in mood and style if they wanted to.
It would be hard to replicate the darkness of Awake because, from my appreciation, it comes from genuine angst. It's a product of both the early 1990s era of angsty music and the point of life the band members were in at the time. The members seem to be genuinely at a peaceful moment in their life right now, so it's hard to imagine them doing something like Awake now.
A very good point. If DT tried to force a certain state of mind that they didn't naturally feel, It'd probably just come off as flat and uninspired.
If they're in a peaceful happy place, then their album should reflect that. I might not dig the music (or I might) but I'd definitely respect it.
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They should fire James and Jordan... that would be a new begin for a new chapter. And DT should hire a good producer.
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??? :huh:
:justjen
???
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(https://www.nrcc.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/anchorman-escalate.jpg)
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LOL.
At this point, maybe after The Astonishing, DT would try and bring producer. They have nothing else to prove. Then again, not sure if JP will be willing to let someone else take the producer's seat. He seems like he would.
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Heavy or not, proggy or not, PLEASE just let it be better than their last two efforts (my two least favourite DT albums in their history).
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I'd love for them to work with the Caveman again. Even though FII isn't my favorite of albums, the sound on that album was excellent. I also don't want him ruining any songs for them this time. :lol
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That was from the record company though John. The were pressuring using outside writers.
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I'd love for them to work with the Caveman again. Even though FII isn't my favorite of albums, the sound on that album was excellent. I also don't want him ruining any songs for them this time. :lol
I could get behind this, for sure.
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Would love to hear songs in the vein of Scarred, Trial of Tears, Breaking all Illusions...stuff like that where the music and the lyrics are an emotional roller coaster.
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I'd love for them to work with the Caveman again. Even though FII isn't my favorite of albums, the sound on that album was excellent. I also don't want him ruining any songs for them this time. :lol
I could get behind this, for sure.
I'm not a fan of KS's production on any of the recent Maiden albums, but I agree that the production of FII sounds great.
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My money is down that DT14 will top ToT as their heaviest album.
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I really liked The Astonishing but i am looking forward to a new single disc DT album again.
I made a compilation of TA since at this point I don't care about the story. I listened to the full album many times, but not I just want to listen to the TA highlights (for me anyway). I ended up having like 18 songs I think.
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Don't really have any predictions as to the sound or songwriting, after their last 3 albums, anything is possible, but I do predict that the album in some ways, is much further along than has been revealed. I'm sure John is at least coming up with ideas for it already. Though I do hope this one will be back to being a full-band effort and written in studio.
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My money is down that DT14 will top ToT as their heaviest album.
Well we do know that Petrucci is getting an 8 string...
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My money is down that DT14 will top ToT as their heaviest album.
I don't think so. With JP and JR on the lead, I really doubt they go that heavy ever again.
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My money is down that DT14 will top ToT as their heaviest album.
I sincerely doubt that.
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Hey, anything can happen
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Yes, but just because something can happen doesn't mean it is likely to happen.
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I'd bet more on an ADTOE/I&W type of album than ToT
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My bet would be ADTOE style. That worked for them, and after the TA experiment they might want to return to something they know worked.
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My bet would be ADTOE style. That worked for them, and after the TA experiment they might want to return to something they know worked.
That's a good point. But it's really hard to say, for me. Although they definitely have a "signature style," this band has been pretty diverse over the years. Seems like whenever we think we know what to expect from them, within a few albums, they manage to surprise most of us. The Astonishing is a classic example. I never would have predicted a musical style album (even though it isn't really THAT far outside of what they have done in the past).
But here's an interesting thing to think about, and it kind of supports your prediction: We know JP said in the past that he was at times reluctant to do something that is TOO far outside of what DT fans would expect DT to do. Yet they deviated from that with TA. And he knew some fans might not be on board with it to begin with. So I can't help but wonder, if he perceives that maybe there was too much pushback from the fanbase, whether he might take that as confirmation and play it even more "safe" for the next album (or albums).
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It would be an absolute shame if the very mixed reception of TA caused DT to play it safe from now on. DT was always at their best when they took chances. To this day I feel there was nothing wrong with the idea of TA per se, it was just the execution that I felt was lacking.
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Yes, it's kind of ironic that some fans were wanting DT to do something different, then the band go and do exactly that with The Astonishing and the fans cry foul. Then some will no doubt complain if/when DT go back to their traditional album. There just ain't no pleasing some folks.
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It would be an absolute shame if the very mixed reception of TA caused DT to play it safe from now on. DT was always at their best when they took chances. To this day I feel there was nothing wrong with the idea of TA per se, it was just the execution that I felt was lacking.
I agree, but maybe and this is just speculation, but a financial impact could be a more determining factor than creativeness to do something less risky.
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It would be an absolute shame if the very mixed reception of TA caused DT to play it safe from now on. DT was always at their best when they took chances. To this day I feel there was nothing wrong with the idea of TA per se, it was just the execution that I felt was lacking.
I agree, only I love even the execution. One of the reasons I rank it so high is because of how bold it was for them to do such a huge exciting undertaking.
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Yes, it's kind of ironic that some fans were wanting DT to do something different, then the band go and do exactly that with The Astonishing and the fans cry foul. Then some will no doubt complain if/when DT go back to their traditional album. There just ain't no pleasing some folks.
I don't think it's the same fans crying both things. I was always on board the "do something different" wagon, and TA was different, and I'm really thrilled about this album. It still doesn't beat I&W and Awake for me, but I'd rank it my fourth favorite album.
I do think we'll get a safer album this time, though. I don't think it will be super-heavy, though. I'm predicting more along the lines of DT12/ADTOE. The "full rock songs" on TA (TGOM, ANB, MoB, ONW) all seemed to be along these lines. And I'm fine with that. I like their new sound. I like hearing rock songs in a major key, too.
I'm also in the camp where I wouldn't be disappointed if they tried to put a commercial hit or two on their next album. Although the meat of DT's work is always going to be too thick for the masses, it would be nice not having to explain who Dream Theater is to like 90% of the people you meet.
I wouldn't consider it a sell out. A lot of famous progressive bands have a handful of radio hits. Yes does. Genesis does. King Crimson does. Rush does. I also don't think it would be horrible if they brought in an outside producer. They're at the point in their career where they could probably get whoever they wanted.
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A lot of famous progressive bands have a handful of radio hits. Yes does. Genesis does. King Crimson does. Rush does.
I have never heard a single King Crimson track on the radio. In. My. Life. Ever.
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I'm also in the camp where I wouldn't be disappointed if they tried to put a commercial hit or two on their next album.
You make it sound as if they could just whip those out if they just felt like it.
I would say Our New World is very close to what one could consider a mainstream rock song. I don't think it had much effect though.
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A lot of famous progressive bands have a handful of radio hits. Yes does. Genesis does. King Crimson does. Rush does.
I have never heard a single King Crimson track on the radio. In. My. Life. Ever.
I think I've heard 21st century Schizoid Man once or twice, and rarely Elephant Talk. But yeah, KC is as far removed from sellout as one could imagine.
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I expect the album to have some longer songs. Maybe an album of ~10m pieces?
We haven't had any of these since ADTOE (clearly Illumination Theory, despite being the monster track it is, doesn't qualify as a ~10m song), and I feel that that's probably the songwriting range where DT has excelled the most in their career. It would both be a safe bet and a change with respect to the most recent past. As for me, I would certainly like this direction!
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I think they really wanted Our New World to become a well know radio hit. They postet their (imho not very good) version with Lzzy like a THOUSAND times on their FB wall, saying "check this out". Most of the people replied to that post with exactly my thoughts. Thank you! We have seen it, stop throwing it into our faces, it's not at all a big effort to shorten a song and let a female singer sing on it.
When I think of (very long existing) Prog bands that have NEVER sold out, the only ones I can think of are Crimso, VdGG and maybe Rush (although their style has moved away from their typical Progrock sound of 75-81). I would dare to say, Dream Theater are amongst them. Sure, they made albums like Falling Into Infinity (BTW I AGREE!!! Very good sounding album, for me, the BEST Snaredrum sound any DT or Portnoy album ever had. That pickup on Trial Of Tears, wow!). Also TA had shorter songs. But who in earth would call releasing a 130min Prog Metal concept album a sellout?
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Put James on guitar and Mangini on vocals
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Put James on guitar and Mangini on vocals
Nightmare Cinema II?
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Put James on guitar and Mangini on vocals
That would be painful to listen... :lol
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I don't know if this has been brought up already, but Mangini is doing a solo album. From his Facebook account:
"A badly needed couple of days off just happened.Group Golf, Rest & BBQ! On this tour and Daily: I either work on my solo album, exercise or relearn/learn older DT tunes. More updates on all those things will follow."
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I don't know if this has been brought up already, but Mangini is doing a solo album. From his Facebook account:
"A badly needed couple of days off just happened.Group Golf, Rest & BBQ! On this tour and Daily: I either work on my solo album, exercise or relearn/learn older DT tunes. More updates on all those things will follow."
Oh wow, I had no clue...That'll be interesting. I wonder if he will play all the instruments? What all can Mike play besides drums?
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Seems like I remember an interview with him once where he mentioned being able to play other instruments, for compositional purposes.
I would imagine that for an actual album, he would hire other musicians. But maybe not.
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I just hope they make something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW8er2UEHF4
make more use of Labrie/bass/harmony, cohesive songwriting.
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I just hope they make something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW8er2UEHF4
make more use of Labrie/bass/harmony, cohesive songwriting.
But their recent writing has been very cohesive. Now, whether you find it coherent or not is another story.
B.Lee
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I would imagine that for an actual album, he would hire other musicians. But maybe not.
This may never happen, but he should get Sherinian on keys ;D
I remember an interview with him where he said Quantum, from Planet X, was one of his favorite drum albums. Also, there's the DT connection.
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Now that they've announced a new IAW anniversary tour, what does this mean for the next album? In the case they only tour Europe for it, they could enter the studio mid 2017 for an early 2018 release, but if they decide to make the tour longer (poor James), they might just take the remaining of the year off and enter the studio in early 2018, which would mean a September-ish release or, If they take longer to finish it, even early 2019 :sad:
What do you think will end up happening? Anyone with inside information who wants to say a word or two? :biggrin:
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They've already mentioned in an interview that they've discussed the new album and are really excited so I don't imagine they will wait too long to release it. I imagine it will come out in 2018 at some point!!
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They've already mentioned in an interview that they've discussed the new album and are really excited so I don't imagine they will wait too long to release it. I imagine it will come out in 2018 at some point!!
That would depend on the lenght of the new IAW tour, which could, probably, last for the whole 2017 in 2 or 3 different legs :'(
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I thought the mixed reception of the astonishing would've spurred them to create the follow up quicker but it seems they've tried to balance out the tour side of things first
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I thought the mixed reception of the astonishing would've spurred them to create the follow up quicker but it seems they've tried to balance out the tour side of things first
I could see the thought process being about getting the fans back in the seats and do a tour that energizes the fan base to get them back interested in the band and excited for a new release. Doing I&W seems like the best way to do that and good timing with the anniversary.
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I suspect their next album to be in your face heavy at times, but tastefully done and balanced with a nice ballad or two.
Lol, someone has to answer to Metallica's new release HTSD, which is awesome btw!
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I'm hoping that with the next album they'll get back to having three or four 10-minute songs again.
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I'm hoping that with the next album they'll get back to having three or four 10-minute songs again.
We haven't had that since ADTOE, so It's very possible they end up doing that. Would be perfect! :D
I really wish they include much more writing from Mangini on DT14, he has great rhythmic ideas and a fresh approach for the band
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I'm hoping that with the next album they'll get back to having three or four 10-minute songs again.
We haven't had that since ADTOE, so It's very possible they end up doing that. Would be perfect! :D
I really wish they include much more writing from Mangini on DT14, he has great rhythmic ideas and a fresh approach for the band
Yeah i feel the same. I loved that they tried the shorter song-format for a couple of albums, but now i feel ready for a few more 10-minute songs by them!
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I'm hoping that with the next album they'll get back to having three or four 10-minute songs again.
We haven't had that since ADTOE, so It's very possible they end up doing that. Would be perfect! :D
I really wish they include much more writing from Mangini on DT14, he has great rhythmic ideas and a fresh approach for the band
Yeah, i'd love for Mike to be more involved in the writing process, and of course JM as well. TA was a nice change and i liked that they had the balls to pull it off, but i hope for a more organic, rocking, less forced epic album this time.
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Many people don't lile the album too much, but DT12 had GREAT drum/bass moments. Their involvement in the writing proccess was notorious.
I'm a bassist and a drummer and, I think, the musical chemistry between Mangini/Myung is better than Portnoy/Myung ever was, specially during the last few albums.
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Many people don't lile the album too much, but DT12 had GREAT drum/bass moments. Their involvement in the writing proccess was notorious.
I'm a bassist and a drummer and, I think, the musical chemistry between Mangini/Myung is better than Portnoy/Myung ever was, specially during the last few albums.
Completely agreed. There seems to be a great chemistry between the two of them, and i hope it gets further explored. Unfortunately DT12 was not the best showcase because of the mediocre drum sound, but let's hope this will not be the case again.
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I'm a bassist and a drummer and, I think, the musical chemistry between Mangini/Myung is better than Portnoy/Myung ever was, specially during the last few albums.
Just to clarify, I meant specially for the last few albums with Portnoy :biggrin:
Many people don't lile the album too much, but DT12 had GREAT drum/bass moments. Their involvement in the writing proccess was notorious.
I'm a bassist and a drummer and, I think, the musical chemistry between Mangini/Myung is better than Portnoy/Myung ever was, specially during the last few albums.
Completely agreed. There seems to be a great chemistry between the two of them, and i hope it gets further explored. Unfortunately DT12 was not the best showcase because of the mediocre drum sound, but let's hope this will not be the case again.
The drum sound on DT12 didn't bother me, but I get why a lot of people hated it. That's, of course not a Mangini fault, but I agree both could be much better mixed on the albums.
Would love to see the middle section of STR being played live someday, those drum/bass grooves are sick!
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The drum sound on DT12 didn't bother me, but I get why a lot of people hated it. That's, of course not a Mangini fault, but I agree both could be much better mixed on the albums.
Isn't it the drummer's job to make job he likes the sound of his instrument on the album?
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Honestly, after hearing all of his albums with DT and JLB and his live stuff and his general raw videos, I just don't like MM's drums. Whether it's the shells, the heads, the tuning, I dunno. But they have to be processed to hell for them to sound pretty decent (EoP). But he likes them, so it is what it is.
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The drum sound on DT12 didn't bother me, but I get why a lot of people hated it. That's, of course not a Mangini fault, but I agree both could be much better mixed on the albums.
Isn't it the drummer's job to make job he likes the sound of his instrument on the album?
If you read Mangini's comments on his FB posts around the time TA was released (where people wrote their complaints about his drum sound), he basically says that the sound they get when recording is amazing, but then they have to mix tons of other tracks and the sound changes (that's what he says). I even have screen shots from those commens, I could transcribe some when I get home.
It isn't Mike's or his drum gear's issue, it's in the mixing proccess where they manipulate the sound and, to be honest, JP isn't exactly the best when it comes to getting the best drum mix sound with whoever is mixing. When Portnoy was in the band, he was so involved with the proccess, he made sure he was always turned waaay high and had a lot of say on his final sound, vs Mangini who doesn't have it, because JP's opinion is the one that matters, and he's still kinda the new guy.
There was also a video from his instructional DVD, The Grid, where he talks about his DT setup (at the same time DT12 was recorded), and actually says his snare sound and tuning for that album was dialed by Petrucci, Chycki and his drum tech Eric to fit the music better. Again, not his fault. Even though I think he could make his opinion a bit more present.
I wish I could link the video, but it was taken down from YT :-\
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I'm hoping that with the next album they'll get back to having three or four 10-minute songs again.
We haven't had that since ADTOE, so It's very possible they end up doing that. Would be perfect! :D
I really wish they include much more writing from Mangini on DT14, he has great rhythmic ideas and a fresh approach for the band
I'm not sure if Mangini has had a lot to do with the song writing, the melody. Of course he's building the drum parts but I don't know much about his career to know if he has ever wrote songs.
The drum sound on DT12 didn't bother me, but I get why a lot of people hated it. That's, of course not a Mangini fault, but I agree both could be much better mixed on the albums.
Isn't it the drummer's job to make job he likes the sound of his instrument on the album?
Since the departure of Portnoy, I'm not sure but I feel Petrucci has such a big control on the production in many ways including the drum sound, the bass sound as well.
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The drum sound on DT12 didn't bother me, but I get why a lot of people hated it. That's, of course not a Mangini fault, but I agree both could be much better mixed on the albums.
Isn't it the drummer's job to make job he likes the sound of his instrument on the album?
If you read Mangini's comments on his FB posts around the time TA was released (where people wrote their complaints about his drum sound), he basically says that the sound they get when recording is amazing, but then they have to mix tons of other tracks and the sound changes (that's what he says). I even have screen shots from those commens, I could transcribe some when I get home.
It isn't Mike's or his drum gear's issue, it's in the mixing proccess where they manipulate the sound and, to be honest, JP isn't exactly the best when it comes to getting the best drum mix sound with whoever is mixing. When Portnoy was in the band, he was so involved with the proccess, he made sure he was always turned waaay high and had a lot of say on his final sound, vs Mangini who doesn't have it, because JP's opinion is the one that matters, and he's still kinda the new guy.
There was also a video from his instructional DVD, The Grid, where he talks about his DT setup (at the same time DT12 was recorded), and actually says his snare sound and tuning for that album was dialed by Petrucci, Chycki and his drum tech Eric to fit the music better. Again, not his fault. Even though I think he could make his opinion a bit more present.
I wish I could link the video, but it was taken down from YT :-\
What you say about the drum sound changing after the mix is very accurate. I have done some recordings in my young time and sometimes we had a great sound but putting all the different tracks together, we were always losing some quality if we wanted to put more and more tracks with the material we had.
TA Is so huge that even a great studio work with engeneers could not quite allow the sound they had at first.
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The drum sound on DT12 didn't bother me, but I get why a lot of people hated it. That's, of course not a Mangini fault, but I agree both could be much better mixed on the albums.
Isn't it the drummer's job to make job he likes the sound of his instrument on the album?
If you read Mangini's comments on his FB posts around the time TA was released (where people wrote their complaints about his drum sound), he basically says that the sound they get when recording is amazing, but then they have to mix tons of other tracks and the sound changes (that's what he says). I even have screen shots from those commens, I could transcribe some when I get home.
It isn't Mike's or his drum gear's issue, it's in the mixing proccess where they manipulate the sound and, to be honest, JP isn't exactly the best when it comes to getting the best drum mix sound with whoever is mixing. When Portnoy was in the band, he was so involved with the proccess, he made sure he was always turned waaay high and had a lot of say on his final sound, vs Mangini who doesn't have it, because JP's opinion is the one that matters, and he's still kinda the new guy.
There was also a video from his instructional DVD, The Grid, where he talks about his DT setup (at the same time DT12 was recorded), and actually says his snare sound and tuning for that album was dialed by Petrucci, Chycki and his drum tech Eric to fit the music better. Again, not his fault. Even though I think he could make his opinion a bit more present.
I wish I could link the video, but it was taken down from YT :-\
You're right. It's definitely on the producer to make sure the sound is right. Bad production will make anything sound like shit and vice versa.
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What you say about the drum sound changing after the mix is very accurate. I have done some recordings in my young time and sometimes we had a great sound but putting all the different tracks together, we were always losing some quality if we wanted to put more and more tracks with the material we had.
TA Is so huge that even a great studio work with engeneers could not quite allow the sound they had at first.
That's what Mike has been saying over and over again to fans on his fb page. I took screen shots from the period after TGOM was released, before TA came out, this is one, word by word:
"I wish you could hear my current drum only stems before the mix process. You'd just die with happiness. Our guy Rich gave me the greatest sound you couldn't even imagine. Things change when you mix in hundreds of other tracks, etc. I'd have to be in a trio for you to hear it like I do, I think. He has an impossible task of trying to get everyone and everything heard and has to make choices to make it work like a chef who makes a lasagna a certain way."
Words straight from Mangini. I'm not making this up, I have the screen shot and I can PM it to you, if anyone wants to see it :biggrin:
You're right. It's definitely on the producer to make sure the sound is right. Bad production will make anything sound like shit and vice versa.
Mike uses the highest line of Pear drums, Zildjian cymbals, Remo heads and Shure mikes, so nothing's wrong with his gear. He's also a master of dynamics and different styles of playing, so it all points to the producer and mixer. That's why I started a "who would you choose to co-produce the next DT album?" thread, commenting on these things.
Nothing against JP and Rich Chycki, I just think they should get someone else on the production, so they can make everyone sound better
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Mike uses the highest line of Pear drums, Zildjian cymbals, Remo heads and Shure mikes, so nothing's wrong with his gear. He's also a master of dynamics and different styles of playing, so it all points to the producer and mixer. That's why I started a "who would you choose to co-produce the next DT album?" thread, commenting on these things.
Nothing against JP and Rich Chycki, I just think they should get someone else on the production, so they can make everyone sound better
I don't disagree with that. I don't see that happening anymore, but it would be nice for them to bring someone in to polish it up once they're done. Maybe get some pointers from Kevin Shirley.
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I am a drummer of 19 years. Having the best gear in the world doesn't make it sound good. Trust me. So the assumption that he uses good gear and is a good drummer, therefore has amazing tone is just not a good assumption. He may have the tone that he finds perfect, but that doesn't mean everyone else thinks it's great. The sound on ADTOE sounds pretty close to his natural drum sound.
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What you say about the drum sound changing after the mix is very accurate. I have done some recordings in my young time and sometimes we had a great sound but putting all the different tracks together, we were always losing some quality if we wanted to put more and more tracks with the material we had.
TA Is so huge that even a great studio work with engeneers could not quite allow the sound they had at first.
That's what Mike has been saying over and over again to fans on his fb page. I took screen shots from the period after TGOM was released, before TA came out, this is one, word by word:
"I wish you could hear my current drum only stems before the mix process. You'd just die with happiness. Our guy Rich gave me the greatest sound you couldn't even imagine. Things change when you mix in hundreds of other tracks, etc. I'd have to be in a trio for you to hear it like I do, I think. He has an impossible task of trying to get everyone and everything heard and has to make choices to make it work like a chef who makes a lasagna a certain way."
Words straight from Mangini. I'm not making this up, I have the screen shot and I can PM it to you, if anyone wants to see it :biggrin:
You're right. It's definitely on the producer to make sure the sound is right. Bad production will make anything sound like shit and vice versa.
Mike uses the highest line of Pear drums, Zildjian cymbals, Remo heads and Shure mikes, so nothing's wrong with his gear. He's also a master of dynamics and different styles of playing, so it all points to the producer and mixer. That's why I started a "who would you choose to co-produce the next DT album?" thread, commenting on these things.
Nothing against JP and Rich Chycki, I just think they should get someone else on the production, so they can make everyone sound better
No worries, I believe you. I did not know it was possible with the kind of equipment they have. It's like a F1 car. They bend the elastic as much as they can to be the closest of perfection but it's at the limit of the mechanic. Don't know if you get my drift.
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Frankly, I think DT has been having exactly the sound they wanted on the last three albums. I just don't find it believable that after 30 years in the music business, JP doesn't know how to get the sound he wants.
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I agree with Rumbo.
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Frankly, I think DT has been having exactly the sound they wanted on the last three albums. I just don't find it believable that after 30 years in the music business, JP doesn't know how to get the sound he wants.
That's because he's an empirical producer. Nothing wrong with that, but there's people with much more experience/knowledge who could make a better job with the sound in general.
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Frankly, I think DT has been having exactly the sound they wanted on the last three albums. I just don't find it believable that after 30 years in the music business, JP doesn't know how to get the sound he wants.
That's because he's an empirical producer. Nothing wrong with that, but there's people with much more experience/knowledge who could make a better job with the sound in general.
I agree. Some people have a better ear for things.
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Many people don't lile the album too much, but DT12 had GREAT drum/bass moments. Their involvement in the writing proccess was notorious.
I'm a bassist and a drummer and, I think, the musical chemistry between Mangini/Myung is better than Portnoy/Myung ever was, specially during the last few albums.
DT12 is the best JM's bass has sounded (both writing-wise, and in the mix) since the early days. It went back to buried in TA. I really like prog rock where the bass stands out.
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This and I think it's very obvious that the more JM is involved in the writing process, the more his bass lines are detached from rhythm guitar parts and, consequently, more interesting. I think this also contribuites to our perception that his bass is low in the mix. Anyway, to me, JM is very audible from WDaDU to 8vm (not so much on Scenes and 6D), on ADToE and DT12.
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So Mangini says, his drums actually sound fine but once the other instruments get into the mix, its impossible to maintain that good sound?
How come a huge Progmetal band like DT can't manage that, but a newcomer Progmetal band like Haken had better drum sounds than DT12 on every of their albums since their DEBUT?
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So Mangini says, his drums actually sound fine but once the other instruments get into the mix, its impossible to maintain that good sound?
How come a huge Progmetal band like DT can't manage that, but a newcomer Progmetal band like Haken had better drum sounds than DT12 on every of their albums since their DEBUT?
Good question!
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So Mangini says, his drums actually sound fine but once the other instruments get into the mix, its impossible to maintain that good sound?
How come a huge Progmetal band like DT can't manage that, but a newcomer Progmetal band like Haken had better drum sounds than DT12 on every of their albums since their DEBUT?
I used to run a studio. It's honestly a mindset that bands tend to have early on in their career. How an instrument sounds on its own is just not important. I noticed the problem more so with guitarists, where they made sure their tone was amazing by itself, but once it was mixed with the drums/bass/whatever else, just killed the mix, but they didn't care. They'd rather me turn down the other instruments.
DT, on ADTOE and DT12 seem to have come at it from a similar perspective. Find what sounds good on its own and just hope it sounds good mixed, but ....it didn't.
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You can't even fault them for it, or any musician. The problem is, when you sit at home and futz around with your instrument sound, you make sure it sound round, and has a lot of body. But, what you are designing is a solo sound, i.e. as if you were playing all alone on the record.
Once the other instruments come in, your guitar sound's bottom end totally gets in the way of the bass. So, the solution is to EQ the hell out of the guitar to confine it to the frequency space it belongs in the mix.
That said, that is of course a beginner's problem, and doesn't apply to DT, who have been recording for 30 years.
My pet theory what the real problem is that there is no overall orchestration going on anymore, i.e. there is nobody saying "too many instruments are playing; MM, play something less busy, JP, maybe you shouldn't do anything at all in this section". Kevin Moore of all people once made a comment regarding that towards modern DT, that he thought everybody in the band was just playing their own thing, with little communication.
So, with everybody playing at all times, you can't ever give any of the instruments body because they will clash, and thus are forced to limit all of them to very narrow confines in the spectrum. I think that is one of the reasons why DT's late albums have been pretty compressed (which is another way of dealing with the problem), and the drum and bass sounds are very thin. It's all coping mechanisms to deal with a crowded frequency space.
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Well said Rumbo! However, the last three DT albums sound fine to my ears. TA is very well mixed and the instruments breathe well throughout imho. I would like to see a future album featuring Myung's bass playing alot more. Mike Lepond's (bass player from SX) solo album Silent Assassins is a perfect example of that. The bass is prolific without sacrificing the heavy rhythm guitars..
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Mike Lepond's (bass player from SX) solo album Silent Assassins is a perfect example of that. The bass is prolific without sacrificing the heavy rhythm guitars..
Yeah, but it's a bass player's solo album!
That is a KICKASS album BTW! :metal
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Mike Lepond's (bass player from SX) solo album Silent Assassins is a perfect example of that. The bass is prolific without sacrificing the heavy rhythm guitars..
Yeah, but it's a bass player's solo album!
That is a KICKASS album BTW! :metal
I'll second that!!! :metal
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Not that it has been confirmed (through hefdaddy42, who was at yesterday's show and got to ask the band a few questions. I'll quote his post from another thread here) that the band plans to take all 2017 touring and will, probably, start working on the next album early 2018, it means we'll have to wait at least a year and a half to get new DT music :sad:
I wish they would at least take some of their new riffs and song ideas and release a 3 song EP of new material, while they're still touring for the IAW anniv. tour. It would give the fans who can't get to attend any live show (like me) something to be excited for while we wait for the new full lenght album. Anyone here shares the same opinion?
What else did you find out about DT land?
-US Tour with Images?
Yes, but probably not until Fall 2017 (September/October, something like that). Per James, it won't be as extensive as the two combined legs of The Astonishing, but more like a typical North American tour - major markets, some Canadian stops, etc.
-Recording of new album?
Again per James, sometime in 2018. 2017 will be I&W touring and some down time.
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Well, they aren't going to be touring for ALL of 2017. But they are going to be touring A LOT. And in connection with that, as I mentioned a little while back, they aren't even getting much time off to rehearse a ton for the next round of touring, which is why it isn't going to be super heavy on "new" material. It'll still have some things they have not played in a VERY long time (and never with Mangini), but there will be some repeat favorites from the last two album cycle tours as well. It's going to be pretty awesome, but they are going to be TIRED by the end.
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Well, they aren't going to be touring for ALL of 2017. But they are going to be touring A LOT. And in connection with that, as I mentioned a little while back, they aren't even getting much time off to rehearse a ton for the next round of touring, which is why it isn't going to be super heavy on "new" material. It'll still have some things they have not played in a VERY long time (and never with Mangini), but there will be some repeat favorites from the last two album cycle tours as well. It's going to be pretty awesome, but they are going to be TIRED by the end.
I just don't understand why they book that many dates so close to each other, they can't get the proper rest, specially in the middle of the tour. Just imagine poor James trying to sing all of IAW and some extra stuff for that long :eek
Also, this is great news for the people who will get to watch any of the concerts live, but, since there's no inmediate plans for a TA live release or an EP or DT14, some of us can, at best, watch not so good fan recorded videos from the gigs and speculate here at the forum, no much more :'(
PS: It may sound like I'm complaining too much, and I'm not. I understand DT, and any band, needs to tour a lot, because they get most of their earnings that way, but I think they went too heavy on the touring for 2016-2017 and they're just getting to the same places over and over again. A US tour next year? They just had 2 this year! Even though it's a different show, still feels too soon, imo :-\
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Well, they aren't going to be touring for ALL of 2017. But they are going to be touring A LOT. And in connection with that, as I mentioned a little while back, they aren't even getting much time off to rehearse a ton for the next round of touring, which is why it isn't going to be super heavy on "new" material. It'll still have some things they have not played in a VERY long time (and never with Mangini), but there will be some repeat favorites from the last two album cycle tours as well. It's going to be pretty awesome, but they are going to be TIRED by the end.
This has me very excited and I'm going to make every effort to go see them a couple of times at least next year.
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I thought The Astonishing had a better mix than DT12. Less compressed, at least in my ears.. Also the drums on that album sounded way better. I would love to hear some drum track without anything as Mangini said! Whats the problem with releasing some of those?
But they managed to get a great drum sound before! Scenes, 6Degrees, FII all had good drum sounds. I even liked BC&SL's sound.
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I realize that Mangini likes his drum sound to be a bit boomy. I'd prefer a flatter drum sound like TOT heck even dramatic turn had a drum sound I liked even though it was mixed a bit low.
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I thought The Astonishing had a better mix than DT12. Less compressed, at least in my ears.. Also the drums on that album sounded way better. I would love to hear some drum track without anything as Mangini said! Whats the problem with releasing some of those?
But they managed to get a great drum sound before! Scenes, 6Degrees, FII all had good drum sounds. I even liked BC&SL's sound.
The people engineering, producing, recording, and mixing are others from the ones on those albums. That's the main difference. While I still love theur music from the recent albums, some of their production and sound choices could've been a lot better in recent years :-\
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TA sounded miles better than DT12, that's for sure. Much more open, the drums sounded better, just about everything really.
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TA sounded miles better than DT12, that's for sure. Much more open, the drums sounded better, just about everything really.
Not the bass, unfortunately :'(
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TA sounded miles better than DT12, that's for sure. Much more open, the drums sounded better, just about everything really.
Not the bass, unfortunately :'(
DT12 has audible bass, but the tone is pretty damn awful. I'll take TA bass over DT12 any day.
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TA sounded miles better than DT12, that's for sure. Much more open, the drums sounded better, just about everything really.
Not the bass, unfortunately :'(
DT12 has audible bass, but the tone is pretty damn awful. I'll take TA bass over DT12 any day.
I think DT12 is one of the DT albums with the best bass tone... and I'm a bassist :eek
TA barely has audible bass :'(
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Well, they aren't going to be touring for ALL of 2017. But they are going to be touring A LOT. And in connection with that, as I mentioned a little while back, they aren't even getting much time off to rehearse a ton for the next round of touring, which is why it isn't going to be super heavy on "new" material. It'll still have some things they have not played in a VERY long time (and never with Mangini), but there will be some repeat favorites from the last two album cycle tours as well. It's going to be pretty awesome, but they are going to be TIRED by the end.
I just don't understand why they book that many dates so close to each other, they can't get the proper rest, specially in the middle of the tour. Just imagine poor James trying to sing all of IAW and some extra stuff for that long :eek
Also, this is great news for the people who will get to watch any of the concerts live, but, since there's no inmediate plans for a TA live release or an EP or DT14, some of us can, at best, watch not so good fan recorded videos from the gigs and speculate here at the forum, no much more :'(
PS: It may sound like I'm complaining too much, and I'm not. I understand DT, and any band, needs to tour a lot, because they get most of their earnings that way, but I think they went too heavy on the touring for 2016-2017 and they're just getting to the same places over and over again. A US tour next year? They just had 2 this year! Even though it's a different show, still feels too soon, imo :-\
I think it has to be about budgeting the tour. The more you have time between concerts, the more you have to pay hotel rooms, food and so forth. Not that they can't afford it but it's part of the planning and it sure has to be think of. So a condense schedule is always beneficial about saving money as long as the guys can handle it physically and mentally.
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Well, they aren't going to be touring for ALL of 2017. But they are going to be touring A LOT. And in connection with that, as I mentioned a little while back, they aren't even getting much time off to rehearse a ton for the next round of touring, which is why it isn't going to be super heavy on "new" material. It'll still have some things they have not played in a VERY long time (and never with Mangini), but there will be some repeat favorites from the last two album cycle tours as well. It's going to be pretty awesome, but they are going to be TIRED by the end.
I just don't understand why they book that many dates so close to each other, they can't get the proper rest, specially in the middle of the tour. Just imagine poor James trying to sing all of IAW and some extra stuff for that long :eek
Also, this is great news for the people who will get to watch any of the concerts live, but, since there's no inmediate plans for a TA live release or an EP or DT14, some of us can, at best, watch not so good fan recorded videos from the gigs and speculate here at the forum, no much more :'(
PS: It may sound like I'm complaining too much, and I'm not. I understand DT, and any band, needs to tour a lot, because they get most of their earnings that way, but I think they went too heavy on the touring for 2016-2017 and they're just getting to the same places over and over again. A US tour next year? They just had 2 this year! Even though it's a different show, still feels too soon, imo :-\
I think it has to be about budgeting the tour. The more you have time between concerts, the more you have to pay hotel rooms, food and so forth. Not that they can't afford it but it's part of the planning and it sure has to be think of. So a condense schedule is always beneficial about saving money as long as the guys can handle it physically and mentally.
That's a very good point.
I think most of the guys can handle it, but James is the one who will suffer the most, since his voice will inevitably wear out with time, and probably Mangini, who, as we've been discussing in the MM interview thread, he just seems tired from all the extensive touring and wants to spend more time with his family.
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I really wish DT would completely break down the conventions of rock/metal bands, scenario like this:
Labrie leaves to study advanced music theory in classical, jazz and eastern music, to then become primary composer for the band
Rudess starts a career as a film maker, turning the new version of the band into a visual arts concept project
The band itself becomes:
Petrucci takes up the saxophone
Mangini takes up the double bass
Myung takes up singing role, in a very middle-eastern style
Rudess plays bongos and various types of percussion including mallets (aside from filming)
All music composed by James Labrie, interpreted by DT
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I really wish DT would completely break down the conventions of rock/metal bands, scenario like this:
Labrie leaves to study advanced music theory in classical, jazz and eastern music, to then become primary composer for the band
Rudess starts a career as a film maker, turning the new version of the band into a visual arts concept project
The band itself becomes:
Petrucci takes up the saxophone
Mangini takes up the double bass
Myung takes up singing role, in a very middle-eastern style
Rudess plays bongos and various types of percussion including mallets (aside from filming)
All music composed by James Labrie, interpreted by DT
(https://i.imgur.com/4NGUYEg.gif)
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I honestly like the idea. I mean there's no way they can outdo The Astonishing in terms of scale, and there's no point in them trying to make a barebones metal album when ToT exists.
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TA sounded miles better than DT12, that's for sure. Much more open, the drums sounded better, just about everything really.
I remember Jordan saying for ADTOE that they weren't going to compete in the loudness wars on their albums.
But then DT12 was super hot after all.
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I honestly like the idea. I mean there's no way they can outdo The Astonishing in terms of scale, and there's no point in them trying to make a barebones metal album when ToT exists.
I think the next album will be similar to ADTOE, with longer songs, but a bit heavier and with more crazy instrumental sections.
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TA sounded miles better than DT12, that's for sure. Much more open, the drums sounded better, just about everything really.
I remember Jordan saying for ADTOE that they weren't going to compete in the loudness wars on their albums.
But then DT12 was super hot after all.
I wonder how much they end up listening to the final product actually. I've definitely heard of musicians who never listen to their own album.
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I really wish DT would completely break down the conventions of rock/metal bands, scenario like this:
Labrie leaves to study advanced music theory in classical, jazz and eastern music, to then become primary composer for the band
Rudess starts a career as a film maker, turning the new version of the band into a visual arts concept project
The band itself becomes:
Petrucci takes up the saxophone
Mangini takes up the double bass
Myung takes up singing role, in a very middle-eastern style
Rudess plays bongos and various types of percussion including mallets (aside from filming)
All music composed by James Labrie, interpreted by DT
(https://i.imgur.com/4NGUYEg.gif)
:coolio
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...and there's no point in them trying to make a barebones metal album when ToT exists.
Except the fact that JP is going to have an 8 string this time around which will probably drive him in a heavier direction. Especially since the 8 string will be fresh to him and most likely inspiring.
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I agree that TA sounded way better than the previous two albums. I had much more to work with when I remastered it to improve the dynamics. This is the first DT album in awhile where it felt pleasurable just to hear the instruments. It definitely increased the emotional impact. I hope this is a continuing trend!
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I agree that TA sounded way better than the previous two albums. I had much more to work with when I remastered it to improve the dynamics. This is the first DT album in awhile where it felt pleasurable just to hear the instruments. It definitely increased the emotional impact. I hope this is a continuing trend!
I hope so too.
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I just watched the Metropolis 2000 version of Another Day (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mno463LoHiA) and, while I was never really a fan of the sax part on the song (I do like the instrument a lot, even played it when I was a teenager), it seems they really enjoyed working with Jay and having an extra instrument voice for a couple songs (they also had him on TAMP from OIALT). I think it would be really cool if they worked with him again for a future release, or, even better, if they included flute on a couple songs. We know flute and prog go very well (Jethro Tull, anyone?), and, while I don't like his music too much, Steven Wilson also used it very well on his album The Raven that refused to sing. I always liked the intro for "Luminol".
I know the most likely thing to happen is them making a heavier record, but what do you guys think of the idea? It's certainly something they haven't done (if you don't count that small section on 8V, which was great btw).
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...and there's no point in them trying to make a barebones metal album when ToT exists.
Except the fact that JP is going to have an 8 string this time around which will probably drive him in a heavier direction. Especially since the 8 string will be fresh to him and most likely inspiring.
Source?
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...and there's no point in them trying to make a barebones metal album when ToT exists.
Except the fact that JP is going to have an 8 string this time around which will probably drive him in a heavier direction. Especially since the 8 string will be fresh to him and most likely inspiring.
Source?
Well, JP has said this a few times on interviews, reddit, clinics, etc. I've seen a couple of them. Here's one I could find right now: https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/35a7c6/hi_im_brian_ball_president_of_ernie_ball_music/cr2lok9/
And, while it's not JP saying it there, It's the president of EBMM, who definitely know what he's talking about ;) Since it's been in development for a while, I would bet they, at least, announce it to the public on NAMM 2017.
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...and there's no point in them trying to make a barebones metal album when ToT exists.
Except the fact that JP is going to have an 8 string this time around which will probably drive him in a heavier direction. Especially since the 8 string will be fresh to him and most likely inspiring.
Source?
Well, JP has said this a few times on interviews, reddit, clinics, etc. I've seen a couple of them. Here's one I could find right now: https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/35a7c6/hi_im_brian_ball_president_of_ernie_ball_music/cr2lok9/
And, while it's not JP saying it there, It's the president of EBMM, who definitely know what he's talking about ;) Since it's been in development for a while, I would bet they, at least, announce it to the public on NAMM 2017.
I remember Sterling Ball and JP saying a few years back that they were toying with the idea of developing an 8 string, but then in a later interview JP said they put that idea on the shelf for the time being. Seeing as how EBMM has already unveiled the new JP models for next year and there isn't an 8 string, I highly doubt there will be one next year. But who knows, maybe one day.
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...and there's no point in them trying to make a barebones metal album when ToT exists.
Except the fact that JP is going to have an 8 string this time around which will probably drive him in a heavier direction. Especially since the 8 string will be fresh to him and most likely inspiring.
Source?
Well, JP has said this a few times on interviews, reddit, clinics, etc. I've seen a couple of them. Here's one I could find right now: https://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/35a7c6/hi_im_brian_ball_president_of_ernie_ball_music/cr2lok9/
And, while it's not JP saying it there, It's the president of EBMM, who definitely know what he's talking about ;) Since it's been in development for a while, I would bet they, at least, announce it to the public on NAMM 2017.
I remember Sterling Ball and JP saying a few years back that they were toying with the idea of developing an 8 string, but then in a later interview JP said they put that idea on the shelf for the time being. Seeing as how EBMM has already unveiled the new JP models for next year and there isn't an 8 string, I highly doubt there will be one next year. But who knows, maybe one day.
While I don't get too crazy about him using an 8 string, I think it's cool for him (and the rest of the band) to experiment with new instruments and sounds to and to their arsenal. That would inspire them a bit more to write material outside of their comfort zone.
For the next album, I wish they get more into different sounds they've never used before, or used very little. Specially Myung, who hasn't used his Chapman Stick since FII or a fretless bass since SFAM. He also plays upright bass and cello,that would sound interesting as well.
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While I don't get too crazy about him using an 8 string, I think it's cool for him (and the rest of the band) to experiment with new instruments and sounds to and to their arsenal. That would inspire them a bit more to write material outside of their comfort zone.
For the next album, I wish they get more into different sounds they've never used before, or used very little. Specially Myung, who hasn't used his Chapman Stick since FII or a fretless bass since SFAM. He also plays upright bass and cello,that would sound interesting as well.
I agree. I personally wouldn't mind him trying an 8 string - it's more a matter of how he uses it, I guess. If it's to truly expand his horizons and do some really creative things, awesome. If it's to just chuggah-chug-chuggety-chug-chugh on the lower bass strings, count me out. As far as your comment on Myung breaking out the chapman stick again - YES please. It'd be awesome to get another highly experimental album out of them, however, at this point in their career, I'm not sure how realistic that is. At least one more very experimental album would be sweet. Although, some might say that The Astonishing was fairly experimental - which may be true to some extent conceptually, but not necessarily stylistically (although the end of Three Days is freaking awesome - more of that kind of stuff would definitely be fine by me). I don't know whether or not they'd be willing to go out on a limb and try anything vastly different though, from a business/financial viewpoint.
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Reading this thread, I agree with the fact that, as many have said, DT should take the direction they took after SDOIT, with a heavier record.
However I wouldn't mind to hear a dark, gloomy album like Awake for example.
More songs like The Mirror, Lie, Lifting Shadows, Scarred, Learning to Live, Repentance, The Great Debate.. and more elements from JM and MM in the songwriting process.
Speaking about JR and JP:
-I think that those massive orchestral arrangements should be blended with the sound of an Awake-type record (which is something DT actually did in ADTOE, mixing symphonic elements with an I&W sound).
-Personally I would be interested hearing JP with an 8 string guitar.
I predict an early 2018 release or if they end touring in August and enter in the studio immediately after, it could be possible a late 2017 release (but I doubt it).
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The 8-string is definitely coming, BTW. I spoke with Matti, JP's guitar tech, about it in December. How much he will actually use it, or how, is a different story, of course, but it is definitely a thing.
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The 8-string is definitely coming, BTW. I spoke with Matti, JP's guitar tech, about it in December.
Well, this is certainly interesting and promising.
Thanks!
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Fuck.
That ONE sound that all 8 strings have. They're basically a 7 string but with a string that ONLY goes DUNGA GUNGA GUNGA GUNGA DUNGA.
Fucks sake. I hate them.
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Not super thrilled either, yeah. My cynical side thinks this is gonna push JMX entirely off the next record.
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Fuck.
That ONE sound that all 8 strings have. They're basically a 7 string but with a string that ONLY goes DUNGA GUNGA GUNGA GUNGA DUNGA.
Fucks sake. I hate them.
Well, I don't think JP will use it like that. Look at Haken or Animals as Leaders, they use the 8 string very well. JP will probably use it in a similar manner.
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Not super thrilled either, yeah.
Well, yeah, but when was the last time you liked ANYTHING?
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Not super thrilled either, yeah.
Well, yeah, but when was the last time you liked ANYTHING?
:lol
I predict an early 2018 release or if they end touring in August and enter in the studio immediately after, it could be possible a late 2017 release (but I doubt it).
On the Myung interview posted on the other thread, he said the current tour will probably last untill the end of the year, and they will start working on the next record in 2018, so I think it'll be a september-ish release for next year :'(
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Not super thrilled either, yeah.
Well, yeah, but when was the last time you liked ANYTHING?
I actually like a lot of things!! :lol
Seriously though, I come across as a party pooper here on DTF, it's just that I still enjoy old DT just not where they are these days. Does that mean I shouldn't be on DTF? As I have said many times, if it were any other band I seriously wouldn't care, but it's the potential of DT that I feel is passed by with late albums that drives me nuts. And while I know I somewhat stand out on here, when you look at YouTube comments, I feel I'm part of a sizable (but otherwise quiet) group.
And just to point this out, I'm not a perennial naysayer. I really liked ADTOE, I thought it was the beginning of a new DT. I was also totally behind MM, initially. And I really liked the first LMR, and also can't wait until JP releases his second solo album.
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TA sounded miles better than DT12, that's for sure. Much more open, the drums sounded better, just about everything really.
Not the bass, unfortunately :'(
DT12 has audible bass, but the tone is pretty damn awful. I'll take TA bass over DT12 any day.
I think DT12 is one of the DT albums with the best bass tone... and I'm a bassist :eek
TA barely has audible bass :'(
It is audible to me, but I understand that they mixed it in such a way that it (and all the other instruments actually) blends seamlessly with the orchestral layers in the music.
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Not super thrilled either, yeah. My cynical side thinks this is gonna push JMX entirely off the next record.
I just imagine Myung walking into the studio today and seeing Petrucci playing a 9 string and finally getting the message.
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I was thinking today, how much do they overlap? JP's guitar would now go down to a F#1, which is only a note higher than a regular bass E1. But, JMX plays a 6-string, so he goes down to a B0.
For what it's worth, it will be interesting what JP can get out of an 8-string. Usually people play djent-y stuff.
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I was thinking today, how much do they overlap? JP's guitar would now go down to a F#1, which is only a note higher than a regular bass E1. But, JMX plays a 6-string, so he goes down to a B0.
Or JMX can invest in a 7-string bass.
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Or maybe JMX could go full Cliff Burton and treat his bass as a lead guitar.
That would be awesome.. :metal
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He did. But JP gave him a stern look back in '93, and so JMX never played 'lead bass' again
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JM has the moog pedal stuff. He doesn't really need his bass to be able to handle the octave lower of everything anymore.
He can use the moog for the low lows, and can use his bass as another.......you know.....instrument that serves more than one purpose.
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Hmm...an 8-string. Could be good or bad. I'll wait until I hear to pass judgement.
What kind of 8-string would Petrucci play?
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Hmm...an 8-string. Could be good or bad. I'll wait until I hear to pass judgement.
What kind of 8-string would Petrucci play?
A custom one.
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I think we'll see a 8 string majesty in connection with the new album...
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Hmm...an 8-string. Could be good or bad. I'll wait until I hear to pass judgement.
What kind of 8-string would Petrucci play?
A MAJESTIC one.
FTFY :hat
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Or maybe JMX could go full Cliff Burton and treat his bass as a lead guitar.
That would be awesome.. :metal
That would not be JMX. That would be asking him to be Chris Squire.
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He used to play lead all the time before taking much more of a backseat.
When you ask him about the best times, he always refers to the earlier days.
I get that you really love it when the bass is blended in the background, but not all of us like it like that, and it's not necessarily safe to assume that JM is 100% on board with it being that way.
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When I think of JMX playing lead bass, I think of WDADU.
When I think of JMX taking too much of a backseat, I think BC&SL.
When I thibk if JMX hitting the perfect balance, I think FII.
Something like FII bass playing would be perfect.
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I totally agree with all of that. But as far as backseat goes, I would also add TA to that list as well. He serves his purpose well, but his purpose is to take a backseat.
On FII he had plenty of lead like moments, which I wish he would do more often.
I guess he did it to a small extent in parts of DT12, but his tone was just awful (in my opinion) and it just became distorted noise to me. So if he gets a great thick clean tone again that isn't too bassy or distorted, and does FII style playing....yesssssss.
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Almost seven years and this hasn't happened yet :(
Sucking on His Pipe/Distinguished Accent
1. Sucking On His Pipe [57:49]
MP - Flutes
JP - Piccolo/Tin whistle
JR - Tin whistle/Bagpipes
JM - Kazoo/Shakuhachi
JLB - Random vocalisations and recorder
An improvised jam where the band ditch the rock instruments in favour of pipes, with James LaBrie butting in with random passages spoken in a distinguished accent.
:metal
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The case with TA is that everybody reined in their playing in that album to let the music especially the orchestral arrangements shine. It's a different case from BC&SL because that album has tons of space where JMX could do more. In TA, playing more would most likely sound out of place.
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The case with TA is that everybody reined in their playing in that album to let the music especially the orchestral arrangements shine. It's a different case from BC&SL because that album has tons of space where JMX could do more. In TA, playing more would most likely sound out of place.
I'll just disagree. I think it COULD sound out of place if done incorrectly. JM, however, is generally really tasteful.
Give him a fretless bass and complete freedom and I think he could have added a lot to TA while also knowing when not to.
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Give him a fretless bass and complete freedom and I think he could have added a lot to TA while also knowing when not to.
Is there an actual album when they've given him complete freedom? I&W maybe?
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Give him a fretless bass and complete freedom and I think he could have added a lot to TA while also knowing when not to.
Is there an actual album when they've given him complete freedom? I&W maybe?
WD&DU. They reigned him in on I&W but he had considerable freedom.
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Give him a fretless bass
Please no. I hate the sound of a fretless electric bass.
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Give him a fretless bass
Please no. I hate the sound of a fretless electric bass.
I literally just ordered one online a few hours ago. :(
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Give him a fretless bass
Please no. I hate the sound of a fretless electric bass.
I literally just ordered one online a few hours ago. :(
Eh, I wouldn't fret.
:neverusethis:
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Has he ever played fretless? I know he hasn't on an album, but maybe on Jellyjam?
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Has he ever played fretless? I know he hasn't on an album, but maybe on Jellyjam?
Peruvian Skies...maybe some others I'm forgetting but that sticks out.
Edit: Also Through Her Eyes Edit 2: Ninja'd
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Has he ever played fretless? I know he hasn't on an album, but maybe on Jellyjam?
He did on SFAM. Through Her Eyes I believe. Live too.
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Give him a fretless bass and complete freedom and I think he could have added a lot to TA while also knowing when not to.
Is there an actual album when they've given him complete freedom? I&W maybe?
WD&DU. They reigned him in on I&W but he had considerable freedom.
And that worked out perfectly. In a band where evertbody's playing called attention to itself, even the drums, they needed that glue to keep the music together.
That album run from Awake to SFAM is flawless bass playing, with FII as the pinnacle.
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We agree!
-high five-
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Has he only ever played the Chapman Stick on one song on one album ?
Kinda bizarre that in 13 albums he's only played it once ?
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That album run from Awake to SFAM is flawless bass playing, with FII as the pinnacle.
Yes. SDOIT still has some cool moments, but since then the bass has gone completely to the background. :-\
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Has he only ever played the Chapman Stick on one song on one album ?
Kinda bizarre that in 13 albums he's only played it once ?
I always wondered the same. It's such a cool instrument for him to only use it in New Millenium :-\
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We agree!
-high five-
I thought he would be having another run like that starting with ADTOE, continuing with DT, but he had to change his approach in TA because of the material. He employed the approach he took in playing the SDOIT song.
I would like to add that I grew to love the tone of the bass in the DT album. Like you, I did not like it at first. But numerous listenings to Illumination Theory made me love the aggression of the bass sound that allowed it toc ut throught JP's rhythm guitar work.
Has he only ever played the Chapman Stick on one song on one album ?
Kinda bizarre that in 13 albums he's only played it once ?
I don't know if it was a joke or not, but I remember reading something about the guys, particularly JP, teasing JMX when he used the Chapman Stick, describing it as an ugly instrument.
Yes. SDOIT still has some cool moments, but since then the bass has gone completely to the background. :-\
I think it's really a function of the style of songs they are playing. I noticed that JMX tends to go to the background when they do metal (except for a few songs like Panic Attack) and when they do songs that have an orchestral(-sound) arrangement. He really shines when it's more at the proggy end of the spectrum, which is why in the TA album, he stands out in TGOM, ASITS, ALLB, ONW.
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Dropping into the background as a bass player when playing metal is weird though. I would say that's *the* style where the bass should be audible.
BTW, I just listened to the bass stems of BCSL. What struck me was, with the exception of Wither, he always plays with pretty heavy distortion on the bass. I wonder whether that's one of the causes him being low in the mix. If you pull him up, you're gonna get a lot of distortion artifacts creeping into JP's territory. JP's low-end distortion and JMX's distortion probably don't play too nice with each other.
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I think JM suffers of bad/low mixing the most
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Dropping into the background as a bass player when playing metal is weird though. I would say that's *the* style where the bass should be audible.
BTW, I just listened to the bass stems of BCSL. What struck me was, with the exception of Wither, he always plays with pretty heavy distortion on the bass. I wonder whether that's one of the causes him being low in the mix. If you pull him up, you're gonna get a lot of distortion artifacts creeping into JP's territory. JP's low-end distortion and JMX's distortion probably don't play too nice with each other.
JM definitely uses more distortion now than he seemed to do before. I wish he wouldn't, unless for specific effect on specific songs.
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It would be great to see JM featured more in the next album. He's such a prolific bass player and shouldn't be overshadowed by the keyboards and guitar. Or at least write more parts in songs that have sections where the bass is in the spotlight.
Rush does that very well! Mike Lepond's Silent Assassins album is a great example of bass tone and standing out at the right times.
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DT14 will have the whole band in a room jamming and recording as they go like they used to do with Portnoy.
They also did it on DT12 and that album is a pretty good -ah.
I listened to it last night and it's a good album bar the drum sound and Surrender To Reason.
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Yea, I think if JM had a better tone, the mix would be easier.
A tone like Dave LaRue would be great, or something where it carries enough low end but is still crystal clear, audible, you can make out what notes he's hitting as opposed to "lots of notes there" and can mesh well with the other instruments.
I think, as others have pointed out, however, that DT's current production is so thick, that the bass tends to just get pushed back until it's barely there to make room for all of the guitars/keyboards etc.
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A tone like Dave LaRue would be great, or something where it carries enough low end but is still crystal clear, audible, you can make out what notes he's hitting as opposed to "lots of notes there" and can mesh well with the other instruments.
That would be great.
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Yeah, a basic crunchy bass is the best. Dave Meros and Pat Badger also always stood out to me with their sound.
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Has he only ever played the Chapman Stick on one song on one album ?
Kinda bizarre that in 13 albums he's only played it once ?
I don't know if it was a joke or not, but I remember reading something about the guys, particularly JP, teasing JMX when he used the Chapman Stick, describing it as an ugly instrument.
They described the Chapman Stick as an ugly instrument and then teamed up with Tony Levin a few weeks later? That seems odd.
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I think the more mundane explanation is that he realized that he didn't gain all that much with the Chapman Stick, given how he already plays a 6-string bass and has no problems tapping on that.
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I think the more mundane explanation is that he realized that he didn't gain all that much with the Chapman Stick, given how he already plays a 6-string bass and has no problems tapping on that.
He also, based solely on the Live in Budokan performance, didn't really utilize the chapman stick to much of a degree outside of the main tapping riff.
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I was watching that just now, yeah. From what I can tell, he plucks it like a regular bass during most of the song.
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I think the more mundane explanation is that he realized that he didn't gain all that much with the Chapman Stick, given how he already plays a 6-string bass and has no problems tapping on that.
That's my theory as well. And, in addition to that, I also speculate that part of it may also be his oft-stated obsessive need to "master" his art. He, as far as I know, doesn't spend much time trying to master the Chapman Stick. He experimented with it for a relatively brief period, and felt competent enough to do New Millenium. But I'm guessing he doesn't really have any desire to do more with it without really mastering it, and he doesn't really have any driving desire to master that instrument. But, again, that's just me guessing. I think what you posted is the simple answer that either mostly or entirely answers the question.
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I also suspect that had it not been for Levin's use of it in LTE, not a lot of people would be discussing it on here. It was kind of a fad for a while, but these days you don't see it all that much anymore.
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I also suspect that had it not been for Levin's use of it in LTE, not a lot of people would be discussing it on here. It was kind of a fad for a while, but these days you don't see it all that much anymore.
One that comes to mind is Nick Beggs who plays with Steven Wilson.
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I found this interview with JM after DT12 was released where he talks about his basses, tone, gear, etc. He was also asked about the champan stick, here's what he said:
FBPO: You’re not really known as a Chapman “stick” player, but I understand you play that too.
JM: I have one. I used it on a song called “New Millennium” on the Falling Into Infinity album a while back. I’ve wanted to use it more, but it’s something that I just haven’t really been able to add, at least to Dream Theater records. I mean, once again, it just falls down to this time factor. I think it’s very important to have something else that takes you away from your primary instrument to give you a different perspective, to change things up and that’s one of those instruments for me. But you’re right, it hasn’t really made its way onto Dream Theater records, apart from one song. It’s just something I do more when I’m at home, but we’ll see.
Hope he remembers to use it on the next album.
The whole thing: https://forbassplayersonly.com/interview-john-myung/
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I hope that the production for DT14 is *at least* as good as The Astonishing.
It's so close to being amongst the best of their production. They just need to make the drums sound a bit more natural.
But it's the best solo JP production job of the 3 for sure.
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I've said it before, but I don't think the album sounds at this point are a function of lack of skill, or stated differently, that the good sound of TA was because JP learned something he didn't know during DT12.
I think JP, with Chychki at the side, gets *exactly* the sound he wants. And with TA he likely felt the wide range of musical styles, and also the story topic, called for a more open sound, whereas for DT12 he probably was looking for exactly the super-tight sound.
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I hope that the production for DT14 is *at least* as good as The Astonishing.
It's so close to being amongst the best of their production. They just need to make the drums sound a bit more natural.
But it's the best solo JP production job of the 3 for sure.
Agreed, if they can get the drums sounding a bit more natural and taking up a bit more space in the mix, that would be great. Hopefully that will be easier to achieve on the next record (assuming there won't be a string section and all the other instruments that were on TA).
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I've said it before, but I don't think the album sounds at this point are a function of lack of skill, or stated differently, that the good sound of TA was because JP learned something he didn't know during DT12.
I think JP, with Chychki at the side, gets *exactly* the sound he wants. And with TA he likely felt the wide range of musical styles, and also the story topic, called for a more open sound, whereas for DT12 he probably was looking for exactly the super-tight sound.
I'm guessing he didn't ask for ADTOE to sound like a demo and muddy with a weak drum sound.
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I totally agree about going for a more natural drum sound. The drum sound definitely let ADTOE down a little for me, but I liked the sound of everything else on that one.
Though, I like the guitar sound better on ADTOE than DT12 and TA - it was drier, with less chorus. It sounds more punchy to me..
Also, it would be great to have less of the vocal "effects" on the next one. There's points in TA where they are quite noticeable and distracting (for me, at least)
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Overall I think MPs Sound was way better than MMs. More natural and organic sounding. For example the octabans: Manginis octabans Sound so distanced and snappy with a lot of echo. Maybe he hits them too hard? In several interviews he says how hard-hitting his playing style is, you just dont really notice given his crazy good techniqe. But just hitting things hard doesnt make it Sound good in every song Situation imo.
But I still think if you would MM on MPs kit in the studio micded up and mixed just like in MP days, than there would be far less complaints about MMs drumming. Sonic Sound itself makes a lot of difference I suppose.
You could see it in an TEI drum cover vid by MM himself that he did without his signature kit. Man it sounded so much better. Especially snare Toms and cmybals (well everything :D).
But I gotta say what he does with hi hats is crazy good, sometimes sounds like lasers with his 4 hihats
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Overall I think MPs Sound was way better than MMs. More natural and organic sounding. For example the octabans: Manginis octabans Sound so distanced and snappy with a lot of echo. Maybe he hits them too hard? In several interviews he says how hard-hitting his playing style is, you just dont really notice given his crazy good techniqe. But just hitting things hard doesnt make it Sound good in every song Situation imo.
But I still think if you would MM on MPs kit in the studio micded up and mixed just like in MP days, than there would be far less complaints about MMs drumming. Sonic Sound itself makes a lot of difference I suppose.
You could see it in an TEI drum cover vid by MM himself that he did without his signature kit. Man it sounded so much better. Especially snare Toms and cmybals (well everything :D).
But I gotta say what he does with hi hats is crazy good, sometimes sounds like lasers with his 4 hihats
I think Mangini's octobans are made of aluminum if I recall correctly. MP's are made out of wood.
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Overall I think MPs Sound was way better than MMs. More natural and organic sounding. For example the octabans: Manginis octabans Sound so distanced and snappy with a lot of echo. Maybe he hits them too hard? In several interviews he says how hard-hitting his playing style is, you just dont really notice given his crazy good techniqe. But just hitting things hard doesnt make it Sound good in every song Situation imo.
But I still think if you would MM on MPs kit in the studio micded up and mixed just like in MP days, than there would be far less complaints about MMs drumming. Sonic Sound itself makes a lot of difference I suppose.
You could see it in an TEI drum cover vid by MM himself that he did without his signature kit. Man it sounded so much better. Especially snare Toms and cmybals (well everything :D).
But I gotta say what he does with hi hats is crazy good, sometimes sounds like lasers with his 4 hihats
I think Mangini's octobans are made of aluminum if I recall correctly. MP's are made out of wood.
Pearl's Rocket Toms (their octobans) are made of aluminum. Tama's Octobans are made of some sort of acrylic, I think. The ones who make wood octobans are DW, if I'm not mistaken.