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General => New Political and Religious Forum => Topic started by: Calvin6s on November 13, 2015, 03:20:59 PM

Title: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Calvin6s on November 13, 2015, 03:20:59 PM
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Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 13, 2015, 03:24:40 PM
Looks like a Mumbai type situation. That's too bad.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 13, 2015, 03:33:36 PM
Yeah, this is looking like a bad one. Drive by at a restaurant, bombs/shooting outside a football match and an ongoing hostage situation at the concert venue where Eagles of Death Metal were playing.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: theseoafs on November 13, 2015, 04:46:13 PM
There are like 20 confirmed deaths right now, but I've heard reports that police are now claiming that there have been 30+.  It's really bad. 

This is all pretty far away from the body count of 9/11 (by a factor of 100 or so), but I'm not sure what the end result will be in terms of societal impact.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 13, 2015, 04:58:16 PM
I don't think you compare terrorist attacks by body count; that's subject to chance and not necessarily the objective anyway. You can compare them in the level of organization, and I think this is less sophisticated. I also think you can compare them by the end result, and that's something that will take some time to discern. America was devastated by 911, and the body count really didn't factor into it. I suspect the French will come out of this better than we did, at least I hope they do, and in that regard I'd consider this quite different (though again, it'll be a year before we really see).

And while I haven't seen anything about it, I suspect that the so-called hostage taking is going to turn out to have been just a massive slaughter. That's a real shame.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Dave_Manchester on November 13, 2015, 05:01:49 PM
Tragic of course, but expected. We've all been told to stay away from the city centre tomorrow because ISIL have said they're going to attack St Petersburg and Moscow this weekend, 'revenge' for our Syrian intervention (they released a video yesterday saying they're going to turn Russia into, and I quote, "an ocean of blood" and "take your women as concubines and your children as slaves". This was interspersed with images of beheadings). The wife obligingly shat herself, before I pointed out to her the video looks and reads like the work of an angry 12 year old.

I'm not going to comment on this Paris thing yet because it's still going on as I write this, but every time they pull a stunt like this they fuck themselves more and more. "We will take your territories" they said in the Russian video. Listen, we have autonomous Muslim republics INSIDE Russia here, many millions of people, Tartarstan, Bashkiria, Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia, etc, and we have all, by and large (the occasional Chechen adventure aside, but that wasn't connected with religion) lived together in peace for centuries. I have been to all these places. ISIL is hated. More than any other group of people, ISIL is despised all over those republics. Oh sure a few leave to go and fight with what they imagine is a noble crusade, as they do from Britain, France and America, but on the whole nobody wants this death cult in our world. I'm desperately sad for the people in Paris, I was in London in 2005 when we had our own terrorist attack, but fuck the terrorists, and fuck their attempts to make people afraid.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: KevShmev on November 13, 2015, 05:39:06 PM
The freaking world has gone crazy.  Just sickening to see this carnage on live television. :censored
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on November 13, 2015, 05:59:10 PM
Not again!!  :'( Apparently 140 confirmed dead, just insane!
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 13, 2015, 07:08:48 PM
French President Hollande : "We are going to lead a war which will be pitiless. Because when terrorists are capable of comitting such atrocities, they must be certain that they are facing a determined France, a united France, a France that is together, and does not let itself be moved, even if today we express infinite sorrow."
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Nekov on November 14, 2015, 06:01:31 AM
Look, it's awfaul what's happening in Paris and in no way is something like this excusable, but hundreds die every day in the middle east and no one gives a shit. Maybe if our world was a little less hypocritical this things wouldn't happen.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: KevShmev on November 14, 2015, 06:04:44 AM
Look, it's awfaul what's happening in Paris and in no way is something like this excusable, but hundreds die every day in the middle east and no one gives a shit. Maybe if our world was a little less hypocritical this things wouldn't happen.

What does that even mean?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Elite on November 14, 2015, 06:55:33 AM
Look, it's awfaul what's happening in Paris and in no way is something like this excusable, but hundreds die every day in the middle east and no one gives a shit. Maybe if our world was a little less hypocritical this things wouldn't happen.

What does that even mean?

It means that as soon as an organised terrorist attack hits the Western World, it immediately receives media attention, while hundreds of deaths in the Middle-East don't necessarily. That said; your comment was completely unnecessary here, Nekov. Obviously, when it hits you at your 'home' it strikes harder than when it's somewhere distant. I was in Paris just two weeks ago and walked those same streets where innocents got shot by murderous religious extremists this night. It hurts - and yes, call me hypocritical, but to see this happening in a neighbouring country immediately makes this so much more real and so much more frightening than the hundreds of other innocents lost in countries where wars have been raging for as long as I can remember.

Anybody in Europe (or France) want to comment?

What do you want to know? Here the brief rundown of what happened:

- Three (suicide bombings at a football stadium where a friendly match between Germany and France was being played. French president Hollande was allegedly the target, though he made it out of there.
- Two shootings in crowded streets at night, people have dinner in restaurants got shot by masked men with automatic weapons.
- Another bombing in a random street elsewhere
- Two armed men kept hundreds of people hostage in the Theatre Bataclan, they stormed the venue during an Eagles of Death Metal concert, held people hostage. They killed around hundred at the venue before the police could storm the building and save what was left of it.
- ISIS reportedly claims they were responsible for the attacks and encourages other French Muslims to commit similar acts of terrorism and warns for future attacks if France does not stop bombing ISIS in Iraq and Syria.

----

There's a lot more and I'm not a news reporter, but this was particularly painful to watch last night. Terrible.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: kingshmegland on November 14, 2015, 07:36:30 AM
The only deaths I want to ever read or see is of extremists.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: senecadawg2 on November 14, 2015, 07:41:50 AM
Look, I don't think Nekov's comment was entirely without place here in this thread, since this P/R.

Not to condone the violence, but to condone context. People, myself definitely included, often ignore, misunderstand and forget that the Levant, Middle East and Arab world as a whole have had a long and complex history vis-a-vis Europe (and France in particular) in which the former was dehumanized time and time again, with piles of innocent dead at every stop along the way. Terrorism does not exist in a vacuum.

I'm not trying to tick anyone off and I'm not going to harp on it any more, I just worry that when we strip terrorism of its historical context we only ever play into the terrorists' hands.

And yes, Elite, I suspect I know just how you feel. I was in Paris just a couple months ago and when all this started going down last night I pulled out my little tourist map and remembered back. And the proximity of it does make the whole thing strike much closer to home, there is no denying that. It's absolutely horrendous and frightening and words can't really do justice to how it makes me feel. It's incredibly sad and disheartening- sometimes I feel like the human race is only days away from completely falling apart.


I mean look- I only wanted to say that the whole world is suffering and that isolating the suffering of one people while largely ignoring the majority which remains is problematic and seems more likely to encourage further destruction in the future. It's a fucking massive cliche, but we're all in this (world) together. Even the terrorists, insofar as they have the ability to fuck things up for the rest of us.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: jonnybaxy on November 14, 2015, 08:29:20 AM
ISIS are claiming responsibility for the attack,

I have an argument, but it will wait for a few days as it is some what political, it's only fair to give the families time to grievance he world a better understanding of what exactly has gone down before introducing politics.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: splent on November 14, 2015, 08:46:29 AM
Yep, ISIS.

It's so sickening. I can't believe why anyone would want to do this to innocent people... often times the people most vocal about their religion are the most extreme/crazy... ISIS falls into that category...

I doubt this will happen at least in this country because there are so many ignorant people, but
1) People will lump all Muslims into the terrorist category again because of ISIS's responsibility
2) How people are blaming the refugees is beyond me, they are RUNNING AWAY from ISIS, not causing ISIS-like attacks
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Nekov on November 14, 2015, 08:48:47 AM
Look, it's awfaul what's happening in Paris and in no way is something like this excusable, but hundreds die every day in the middle east and no one gives a shit. Maybe if our world was a little less hypocritical this things wouldn't happen.

What does that even mean?

What Seneca said, Siria is being constantly bombed but the news don't show it and tons of innocent people are dying but nobody seems to care about that and I'm guessing it's because those deaths happen within the context of a war or maybe because we only care about what happens in the western world. Violent deaths like these are always awfaul but if we only look at some of them and not all of them then this will never stop, because the guys that did this see all those deaths we miss every day and this is how they react. If the rest of the world reacted to those maybe we could prevent more useless deaths.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: orcus116 on November 14, 2015, 09:35:53 AM
ISIS are claiming responsibility for the attack,

Of course they are. There's a good chance they had a hand in it but let's be real they're giddy and eager to slap their name on everything like this regardless of whether they were responsible or not because it adds to their reputation.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 14, 2015, 09:36:52 AM
Siria is being constantly bombed but the news don't show it and tons of innocent people are dying but nobody seems to care about that and I'm guessing it's because those deaths happen within the context of a war
Yes, that is the important difference.

Death in war, even collateral damage, is much different than the unprovoked slaughter of peaceful citizens in a non-warzone.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: senecadawg2 on November 14, 2015, 09:53:27 AM
Problem is, we are living in a world in which the line between war zone and non-war zone is increasingly blurred. It's an important distinction to make, for sure, but we have to remember that our notions of what constitutes a war zone are not always going to align with a terrorist organization like Daesh which, by all indications, is already particularly difficult to pin down to any one geographical region.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: KevShmev on November 14, 2015, 10:08:49 AM
Siria is being constantly bombed but the news don't show it and tons of innocent people are dying but nobody seems to care about that and I'm guessing it's because those deaths happen within the context of a war
Yes, that is the important difference.

Death in war, even collateral damage, is much different than the unprovoked slaughter of peaceful citizens in a non-warzone.

Exactly. It is shocking to me that some seemingly do not understand the difference.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: kingshmegland on November 14, 2015, 10:40:31 AM
I bet both Kev and Hef like most Americans don't ever want war.  It's the last resort. At least that's what I'd hope.  Unfortunately,  it is a necessity sometimes.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: theseoafs on November 14, 2015, 11:19:23 AM
Look, it's awfaul what's happening in Paris and in no way is something like this excusable, but hundreds die every day in the middle east and no one gives a shit. Maybe if our world was a little less hypocritical this things wouldn't happen.

Nice, victim blaming at its finest here.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 14, 2015, 11:39:58 AM
Death in war, even collateral damage, is much different than the unprovoked slaughter of peaceful citizens in a non-warzone.
Not if you're part of the collateral damage. To those people it's the exact same thing.

Also, there's a thread in GD for grieving, mourning, whatever. I'm personally happy that Calvin, even if it wasn't his intention, started a thread about it in P/R because there certainly are aspects of it that don't need to be combined with the GD thread.

And with that said, I'm real interested in how France copes with this. When America go hammered the people collectively shit the bed, curled up into a ball in the corner and essentially handed victory to al Qaeda. My hunch is that the French react much better. While I'm not crazy about Hollande declaring this an act of war, the same rhetoric that contributed to our failure, I still think the people there will muster up a response that's equal part balls and sanity. That would be a damned fine thing to see. I'm certainly rooting for France this time around. 
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: KevShmev on November 14, 2015, 12:01:07 PM
I bet both Kev and Hef like most Americans don't ever want war.  It's the last resort. At least that's what I'd hope.  Unfortunately,  it is a necessity sometimes.

Yep, nobody wants war, but it is a necessity sometimes.  People like Hitler and factions like ISIS cannot be reasoned with; war is the only way to stop them, sadly.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Elite on November 14, 2015, 01:05:26 PM
Yep, nobody wants war, but it is a necessity sometimes.
I wouldn't even use the term war with ISIS.  These are just psychopaths.  Once they are seriously and continually engaged, I think they will start to fall apart and those joining will decide to wait it out for the next incarnation of Jihad.

The big problem is not what they do in Syria and the Middle East, but mainly what they will do in Europe.  Europe is a much easier target for them.

'Them' being psychopaths who are already living in Europe. This isn't necessarily Syrians (or other Middle-Eastern people for that matter_) who joined Daesh and are coming to Europe to blow up the Western World. There's religious extremist idiots over here that share their sentiment, that go radical and suddenly go nuts. The people already living here, they are a huge problem. It's much easier for them - and it will have more impact - to commit an act of terrorism here, where they live, instead of heading out to Syria to join forces with Daesh.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: TL on November 14, 2015, 02:10:31 PM
Absolutely heartbreaking.

I will say, the resolve and unity the French people have shown in the wake of this horrific tragedy is inspiring. The French are a brave, resilient people; basically the polar opposite of the cowards who committed these terrible acts.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Lucien on November 14, 2015, 02:22:12 PM
The conductor held a moment of silence at the Fort Worth Symphony Orchestra tonight, right before the concert started...

Everything's gone mad  :(
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: KevShmev on November 14, 2015, 04:35:44 PM
To take this in another direction, this is a good example of why it shouldn't be so easy for illegal immigrants to get into this country.  Not that some wanting to do heinous crimes won't find a way in regardless, but it should be far more difficult.  Not saying we should build a wall, ala Trump, just that changes need to be made.  The world is too dangerous nowadays for us to stand by the "America is the land of the free and we welcome anyone who wants to come here" way of thinking.  Sad that it's come to that.  :(
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 14, 2015, 04:38:03 PM
I've gone back and forth on that. Don't forget the refugees are trying to escape warzones like this.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: KevShmev on November 14, 2015, 04:41:46 PM
For sure, but I think it has reached the point where we need to be a bit selfish and protect those of us who are here and are citizens first and foremost.  It's not like America is the only country in the world to which refugees can flee.  Bottom line, there is no easy solution for any of this.  It's impossible to take out everyone affiliated with ISIS, and it's just as impossible to stop everyone on a suicide mission. :censored
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 14, 2015, 04:47:56 PM
Bit of a tangent but I've decided to not log onto Facebook for a while. I've been inundated by people praying for Paris - posting prayers and hashtags on social media doesn't do shit other than inject yourself into a tragedy. "127 people died, but don't forget about me and my compassion!"

Second are the people reminding us this happens all the time in places like Syria, Iraq, Lebanon. What is it they want us to do? These are invariably the same people who make posts about the evils of war and the US military having no right to be in the area. They're not saying we (western nations) should intervene and ramp up efforts to stop ISIS, boko haram, etc., but yet that we should feel guilty, nay post hashtags about praying for those people as well.

I'm upset with a lot of the "reaction" to this.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 14, 2015, 04:49:48 PM
I'm upset with a lot of the "reaction" to this.
I've mostly stayed beneath the fray today, but I found the obsession with body counts last night discomforting.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: KevShmev on November 14, 2015, 04:54:42 PM
I'm with ya.  Some gal I used to work with posted some map today detailing where each disaster struck in Paris and I am like, WTF?  Yeah, I am sure everyone is ecstatic to relive that.   :tdwn :tdwn
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 14, 2015, 04:59:13 PM
I'm upset with a lot of the "reaction" to this.
I've mostly stayed beneath the fray today, but I found the obsession with body counts last night discomforting.

This happens with every tragedy. I genuinely think there is a large subset of people  who want to see body counts rise - not to watch the world burn - but so they can have a story of "I remember where I was when this major world event went down." Again, making a tragedy about them and giving fuck all a care about the victims. It's sickening.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: TL on November 14, 2015, 05:38:21 PM
To take this in another direction, this is a good example of why it shouldn't be so easy for illegal immigrants to get into this country.  Not that some wanting to do heinous crimes won't find a way in regardless, but it should be far more difficult.  Not saying we should build a wall, ala Trump, just that changes need to be made.  The world is too dangerous nowadays for us to stand by the "America is the land of the free and we welcome anyone who wants to come here" way of thinking.  Sad that it's come to that.  :(
Really not the thread for this.

Quote
posting prayers and hashtags on social media doesn't do shit other than inject yourself into a tragedy
Maybe people are having difficulty processing such a horrific event, and feel powerless to do anything, so they express their grief/condolences?
I'm not saying no one is ever selfish about tragedy, but I think most people are just trying to feel a bit less lost during a difficult time.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Genowyn on November 14, 2015, 07:55:45 PM
Something that's worth noting, especially when it comes to talking about the immigration side of it is that ISIS has in the past expressly stated their goal is to destroy the 'grey area'. They want all Muslims to be on their side and all non-Muslims to be xenophobic hatemongers. They characterize it as "Islam vs the Crusade".

They are an engine of hate and violence, and more hate and violence is not the way to overcome them.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Cool Chris on November 14, 2015, 08:33:28 PM
More violence could overcome them. But it is not a battle I want the US to engage in, if possible. When they bring the battle to you though, I think you have to address the situation differently.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Genowyn on November 14, 2015, 10:01:22 PM
On the violence note, I meant things like the people burning Syrian refugee camps in France. This behavior is unproductive and exactly what ISIS wants.

That being said, do you really think violence will affect any long term change? ISIS recruits people by pointing out the damage that the west has done in wars in the Middle East, by stirring up anger over collateral damage caused by airstrikes and drone missiles. If you respond violently I fear it would just give the next asshole more tools he can use to recruit.

That being said, genocide, human trafficking, and the destruction of history and cultural heritage are not things that can be tolerated. There is a fine line that needs to be walked, and the actual cost on the whole of human civilization is too high to let countries like Saudi Arabia, who are content to allow ISIS complete their genocide of non-Arabs and non-Muslims before intervening, to bear the responsibility. The Saudis will get involved if and when ISIS actually threatens their borders, and I think ISIS is well aware of that.

It's all a matter of very fine lines unfortunately.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Nekov on November 15, 2015, 05:13:09 AM
Siria is being constantly bombed but the news don't show it and tons of innocent people are dying but nobody seems to care about that and I'm guessing it's because those deaths happen within the context of a war
Yes, that is the important difference.

Death in war, even collateral damage, is much different than the unprovoked slaughter of peaceful citizens in a non-warzone.

Exactly. It is shocking to me that some seemingly do not understand the difference.

I do understand the difference but as EB said it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably on your couch thousands of miles away from where the war is, when you're in the middle of it and your family is the collateral damage you probably see it in another way. I mean, countries from all around the world go bomb the middle east and that's war, but when the middle east goes bomb the rest of the world it's terrorism...

Definitely think there needs to be disrespect toward ISIS when we (Hollande and other leaders) talk about them.  They should frame it in terms of how these cowards didn't go looking for a fight. 

Yeah, it's really brave when a guy in a secure bunker flies a drone and throws bombs at people....

Look, it's awfaul what's happening in Paris and in no way is something like this excusable, but hundreds die every day in the middle east and no one gives a shit. Maybe if our world was a little less hypocritical this things wouldn't happen.

Nice, victim blaming at its finest here.

I don't blame the victims, they were innocent people that got killed and that is extremely wrong. I'm in no way condoning what happened because it's awful and should never happen. What I'm saying is that in the western world we clearly have a double standard and only judge things harshly when they happen to people in the western world, but when it happens in the middle east we either look the other way or justify it by saying it's war. And this war has been going on for like 15 years now and look, nothing's changed, terrorism is still happening, people are dying every day. First it was Afghanistan, then it was Irak, now it's Siria, tomorrow it will be Kuwait or wherever and the wheel will keep turning. How much money and lifes has this cost already with no result? Why aren't we trying to educate this people instead of giving them reasons to commit these attroucious acts?

King says sometime war is necessary and I really don't think so. I'm going to quote something from the last Dr. Who episode because I don't think there's any way I can put it more clear than this:

Quote
This is a scale model of war. Every war ever fought, right there in front of you. Because it's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn! How many hearts will be broken! How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill until everybody does until what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: kingshmegland on November 15, 2015, 05:33:47 AM
I hope it never is my friend and it is moving to strikes and not wars.  Countries are fighting ideologies now not other countries.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: KevShmev on November 15, 2015, 07:02:57 AM
War is never necessary, Nekov?  You do realize that without war, Hitler would have wreaked more havoc on Jews and the world, slavery would still exist in this country (or the South would have seceded and become their own country), and ultimately, England would still own this country.  War sucks, but it is absolutely necessary sometimes. 

And I am sorry, but it is extremely to naive to think that we could educate terrorists into not committing their heinous acts.

Your overall stance is just bizarre, because it is not realistic.  Yes, in an ideal world, we would all live together in peace, but it's not realistic. 
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on November 15, 2015, 08:53:46 AM
Someone posted this on FB and I think he has a good point:
Quote
I understand the frustration of people who are posting things like 'What about Syria? What about Palestine?' in relation to the grief and shock coursing through social media about the events in Paris. There is indeed a myopia in the media about things that happen 'here', and things that happen 'over there'. But that, for the most part, reflects the myopia we as humans have - we need context to process significant events, especially things as horrible as what happened on Friday night. The unimaginable horror of being attacked during something as intrinsic to so many of our lives as just going to a fucking gig (or even working at one) has hit home hard, and I don't think its selfish or blinkered to feel something more profound about that than from disengaged reports of barrel bombs being dropped on rural markets or field hospitals in a country so far removed from our sphere of influence and cognisance as to be otherworldly. One of the news organisations I work for specialises in reportage and opinion focused entirely on the situation in Syria - it's a daily barrage of some of the most harrowing stories I've ever had to deal with. But none has hit me in the pit of my stomach in the way that the dispatches from Paris did - a city I have visited numerous times and did exactly what all those people who were killed were doing: having a nice meal with my wife; going to a gig; standing behind a fucking merchandise table, for fuck's sake! People are processing their grief, shock, sadness, because the grotesque of the familiar turning into horror has resonated with them more profoundly than they could have ever imagined. Saying, 'Yeah, well ... Rwanda!' doesn't really achieve anything. In fact, it might shut down the next stage of dialogue, which is: 'How can we stop this happening EVERYWHERE?'
I've been to Paris and France several times and visited alot of the famous land marks and so on so I definitely have a connection with the city although i've never lived there.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 16, 2015, 06:03:50 AM
Weapons stolen from Massachusetts Army Reserve building

Quote
It was not immediately clear how many or what type of weapons were taken. FBI spokeswoman Kristin Setera said the agency had no indication that the missing weapons were connected to terrorism.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/16/weapons-stolen-from-massachusetts-army-reserve-building/?intcmp=hpbt4

Back in August, 40 grenades and 128 C4/detonators were stolen from a military base Paris. I really hope we're not about to discover a trend.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Nekov on November 16, 2015, 06:48:25 AM
War is never necessary, Nekov?  You do realize that without war, Hitler would have wreaked more havoc on Jews and the world, slavery would still exist in this country (or the South would have seceded and become their own country), and ultimately, England would still own this country.  War sucks, but it is absolutely necessary sometimes. 

And I am sorry, but it is extremely to naive to think that we could educate terrorists into not committing their heinous acts.

Your overall stance is just bizarre, because it is not realistic.  Yes, in an ideal world, we would all live together in peace, but it's not realistic.

Ok, I will grant you that saying war is never necessary it's an extreme because right there you have a pretty good example. But there's also a big difference there, Hitler was trying to invade the rest of Europe and those countries had to fight back in order to keep their population safe and they did it on their own ground. That's very different from Europe and the US bombing places in the middle east. And you say it's naive to think that little children can be educated in order to not turn into terrorists, but have we tried that? Is it proven that it doesn't work? As I said before, 15 years of war against terror have not changed a single thing, maybe it's time to try something else instead of keep killing innocent people because that only keeps the wheels turning.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Ben_Jamin on November 16, 2015, 08:22:47 AM
Prayers go out to the victims in these tragedies. Yet, the french have things that do not belong to them, things we as native peoples of america kindly have asked, several times to be returned to us, sacred objects that we hold dearly. Guaranteed we've told them about the consequences that can occur if not returned, Not by us, but by the way our spirits choose to handle it. Thats all I have to say about this. I do pray and hope these will be returned one day. and the people there will continue living as no one should have to endure this.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Stadler on November 16, 2015, 10:11:37 AM
Problem is, we are living in a world in which the line between war zone and non-war zone is increasingly blurred. It's an important distinction to make, for sure, but we have to remember that our notions of what constitutes a war zone are not always going to align with a terrorist organization like Daesh which, by all indications, is already particularly difficult to pin down to any one geographical region.

I don't discount your idea - it is sound - but let's not wax too philosophical.    A few hundred Parisian children (what I consider anyone under 30, because I'm old) going out to bang heads at a rock concert is hardly "a blurry war zone". 
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 16, 2015, 10:20:52 AM
Problem is, we are living in a world in which the line between war zone and non-war zone is increasingly blurred. It's an important distinction to make, for sure, but we have to remember that our notions of what constitutes a war zone are not always going to align with a terrorist organization like Daesh which, by all indications, is already particularly difficult to pin down to any one geographical region.

I don't discount your idea - it is sound - but let's not wax too philosophical.    A few hundred Parisian children (what I consider anyone under 30, because I'm old) going out to bang heads at a rock concert is hardly "a blurry war zone".
I'd consider them (if I'm wearing my black, jihadi headband, that is) non-combatants living in a war zone.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Stadler on November 16, 2015, 10:33:26 AM
War is never necessary, Nekov?  You do realize that without war, Hitler would have wreaked more havoc on Jews and the world, slavery would still exist in this country (or the South would have seceded and become their own country), and ultimately, England would still own this country.  War sucks, but it is absolutely necessary sometimes. 

And I am sorry, but it is extremely to naive to think that we could educate terrorists into not committing their heinous acts.

Your overall stance is just bizarre, because it is not realistic.  Yes, in an ideal world, we would all live together in peace, but it's not realistic.

Ok, I will grant you that saying war is never necessary it's an extreme because right there you have a pretty good example. But there's also a big difference there, Hitler was trying to invade the rest of Europe and those countries had to fight back in order to keep their population safe and they did it on their own ground. That's very different from Europe and the US bombing places in the middle east. And you say it's naive to think that little children can be educated in order to not turn into terrorists, but have we tried that? Is it proven that it doesn't work? As I said before, 15 years of war against terror have not changed a single thing, maybe it's time to try something else instead of keep killing innocent people because that only keeps the wheels turning.

It's only a difference in tactic.   And don't forget (as I have not, because I had - key word, HAD - family in Poland that saw American and French and Soviet airplanes dropping bombs on them in the hopes of liberating them) that the specifics of the conflict dictate the specifics of the engagement.   With an entity like ISIL, that has no embassies, has no capital, has no sitting government, there is almost no recourse BUT to take the attack to those countries where their presence is manifest.  And as abhorrent as it may be for some, perhaps the "innocents" are part of the battle.  Perhaps the more "innocents" that are in harm's way, the more "innocents" will stand up and say "That isn't us.  That isn't what we believe, that isn't what we stand for, and that isn't how we want to be known throughout the world."     
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Nekov on November 16, 2015, 10:53:47 AM
Again guys, this (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1061479010536978) is not the solution. Can you sincerely look at that and tell me that is the right way to deal with all this?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Nekov on November 16, 2015, 12:01:18 PM
There is no context of the video, so what it represents is foggy at best.

You need context on bombs falling on people's homes? You need context on children having to run away from that?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 16, 2015, 12:04:16 PM
Again guys, this (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1061479010536978) is not the solution. Can you sincerely look at that and tell me that is the right way to deal with all this?

That link is blocked where I am. Can you describe what's going on it it?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 16, 2015, 12:17:31 PM
Prayers go out to the victims in these tragedies. Yet, the french have things that do not belong to them, things we as native peoples of america kindly have asked, several times to be returned to us, sacred objects that we hold dearly. Guaranteed we've told them about the consequences that can occur if not returned, Not by us, but by the way our spirits choose to handle it. Thats all I have to say about this. I do pray and hope these will be returned one day. and the people there will continue living as no one should have to endure this.


Uhhh..... ?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 16, 2015, 01:32:27 PM
I do understand the difference but as EB said it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably on your couch thousands of miles away from where the war is, when you're in the middle of it and your family is the collateral damage you probably see it in another way. I mean, countries from all around the world go bomb the middle east and that's war, but when the middle east goes bomb the rest of the world it's terrorism...
Yes, because we just showed up and started dropping bombs because we had nothing better to do.

Yes, that must have been what happened.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 16, 2015, 01:47:48 PM
I do understand the difference but as EB said it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably on your couch thousands of miles away from where the war is, when you're in the middle of it and your family is the collateral damage you probably see it in another way. I mean, countries from all around the world go bomb the middle east and that's war, but when the middle east goes bomb the rest of the world it's terrorism...
Yes, because we just showed up and started dropping bombs because we had nothing better to do.

Yes, that must have been what happened.
I don't think the hypothetical people we're calling collateral damage really care who started it. Moreover, you're going to run into an infinite regress problem once you start down that path.

And frankly, there are an awful lot of people in Iraq who have every right to think that we bombed them because we had nothing better to do. While I don't think it's the case, I think the rationale was every bit as stupid and pointless.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Nekov on November 16, 2015, 01:53:38 PM
I do understand the difference but as EB said it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably on your couch thousands of miles away from where the war is, when you're in the middle of it and your family is the collateral damage you probably see it in another way. I mean, countries from all around the world go bomb the middle east and that's war, but when the middle east goes bomb the rest of the world it's terrorism...
Yes, because we just showed up and started dropping bombs because we had nothing better to do.

Yes, that must have been what happened.

I know that's not what happened but again my point is that as long as the answer to someone throwing a bomb is throwing a bomb back at them, this will never end. And my first point is, if we feel horrified by what happened in Paris, we should also feel horrified about what happens every day in the middle east because both of them have innocent people dying, but as long as we only look at one of them then that side will feel justified in killing innocent people.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 16, 2015, 02:06:56 PM


This was the riot shield of a cop entering Bataclan.

(http://media.20minutes.fr/2015/bouclier.JPG)
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on November 16, 2015, 02:31:36 PM
I do understand the difference but as EB said it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably on your couch thousands of miles away from where the war is, when you're in the middle of it and your family is the collateral damage you probably see it in another way. I mean, countries from all around the world go bomb the middle east and that's war, but when the middle east goes bomb the rest of the world it's terrorism...
Yes, because we just showed up and started dropping bombs because we had nothing better to do.

Yes, that must have been what happened.
I don't think the hypothetical people we're calling collateral damage really care who started it. Moreover, you're going to run into an infinite regress problem once you start down that path.
Seems to me that if they were so mad that they felt they had to take matters into their own hands, they should know WTF is going on, and who is really to blame for their circumstances.  Which is, 99 times out of 100, their own people.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 16, 2015, 02:51:20 PM
I do understand the difference but as EB said it's easy to say that when you're sitting comfortably on your couch thousands of miles away from where the war is, when you're in the middle of it and your family is the collateral damage you probably see it in another way. I mean, countries from all around the world go bomb the middle east and that's war, but when the middle east goes bomb the rest of the world it's terrorism...
Yes, because we just showed up and started dropping bombs because we had nothing better to do.

Yes, that must have been what happened.
I don't think the hypothetical people we're calling collateral damage really care who started it. Moreover, you're going to run into an infinite regress problem once you start down that path.
Seems to me that if they were so mad that they felt they had to take matters into their own hands, they should know WTF is going on, and who is really to blame for their circumstances.  Which is, 99 times out of 100, their own people.
Frankly, Hef, I don't think any of these Paris knuckleheads had ever given their rationale any thought at all. As I've said somewhere recently, they're idiots duped into acting out by people exploiting their religious devotion. I'm only into this aspect of the discussion because I think, which I believe is Nekov's point, that it's too easy to slap labels like good guy, bad guy, hero or terrorist onto people without considering the highly relative nature of the alignment. Some guy attending his cousin's wedding doesn't give a fuck about the geopolitical developments that lead up to the moment when the spooky opens fire. They see themselves every bit the victim of terrorism as the people in Paris do.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Nekov on November 16, 2015, 03:44:12 PM
Thanks Eb, I'm so frustrated about all this that I'm having a really hard time expressing my point clearly but that right there. What I'm trying to get out is that we need to see both sides of the coin or at least try to get into those peoples shoes because they also need our support, they are completely defenseles and it seems like they don't even exist and that pisses me off to no end. I think how I would feel being one of those kids in the video I posted before and my heart breaks for them.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Nekov on November 16, 2015, 04:03:50 PM
What I'm trying to get out is that we need to see both sides of the coin or at least try to get into those peoples shoes because they also need our support
You might be treading in very dangerous water here as you have just made a connection of the terrorists to the people from which they come.  Are we going to lump them together now?

It seems we can only lump them together and then also be told we can't lump them together only at *our* (the west) inconvenience.

So where do we go with this conversation then.  You can't expect people to give ground on both ends.

I'm not saying terrorists need our support, I'm saying innocent people that are being bombed need our support. The fact that geographically they are close to each other doesn't mean we need to put them in the same group.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: kingshmegland on November 16, 2015, 05:27:23 PM
Calvin6s, seems to me that you are the one talking in repeating loops.  I understand that sometimes war is inevitable.   It's the innocent that Diego is talking about and how they are secondary to the goal of war.  Diego hopes to avoid war altogether.  He sees the innocent in Iraq.   But this is not the kind of war that is simple where you know the opponent.   

So unfortunately,  there is innocent that are casualties.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 16, 2015, 06:30:29 PM

When we are purposely targeting civilians, then we can talk about why that is wrong.  The idea that West doesn't want to avoid civilian casualties goes against history.  The civilians are caught up because ISIS sets it up that way (a side which is targeting civilians.)  And we have to worry about the ignorance of those civilians not realizing this?  There were years of no response to the Syria war.  It got worse.  Much worse.  Then there was a PR-campaign response that had little to do with any real goal.  It got worse.  Much worse.  Whether or not it gets worse or better goes well beyond our actions.
Completely missing the point (or my point, at least). When you drop a paveway through the roof of a bomb shelter, or have an orbiting spooky blast all fuck out of a mobile hospital, "Oopsy, sorry, meant to hit those guys over there," means precisely jack shit to the people inside. You're the bad guy. Period. The fact that you feel your cause is just makes no more difference than it does to the Paris assholes who feel the same thing.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: kingshmegland on November 16, 2015, 07:05:47 PM
It amazes me that you can't feel sympathy for those affected by war that are not involved Calvin6s.   I agree that war is needed at some point but your circular jibber jabber makes you seem devoid of empathy.

 
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 16, 2015, 07:29:35 PM
I said Friday night that I suspected the French would handle this much better than we did. While it's still quite early, the Parisians certainly seem to be holding up their end. Driving home I heard a French woman, civilian, say "we can't lose our sympathy. That's what we have and if we give it away we've lost everything." I applaud her sense of humanity. Immediately after her story comes Governor Cripple, pounding on the desk insisting that "we can't let any Syrians into Texas. That'd be insanity!" The arrogance never ceases to amaze me which allows us to ridicule others, the French in particular, for being pussies while celebrating so many of our own displays of monumental cowardice.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 16, 2015, 08:12:44 PM
The cliche hatred of the French always pissed me off. They're a western European ally of ours, and have been since our inception.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: kingshmegland on November 17, 2015, 06:15:46 AM
It amazes me that you can't feel sympathy for those affected by war that are not involved Calvin6s.
It amazes me that you draw such conclusions.
.
That's easy to do from reading your posts.  Somehow, to ok with easily saying oh well to the people caught up in war.  You can still be for it and have sympathy for those innocent bystanders.   

Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: kingshmegland on November 17, 2015, 06:59:40 AM
Sure.  I do believe it is needed sometimes.  Lately, it tough because this is a war of ideologies.  It's not a country,  it's small factions and how do you deal with that in war?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 17, 2015, 08:25:48 AM
It's not a country,  it's small factions and how do you deal with that in war?

(http://www.physics911.net/tech-resource-library/predator-drone-crowd-control.jpg)

I know that there have been many civilian casualties as a result of drone strikes, and I don't love all aspects of the program, but this is basically the only option without putting US soldiers in harms way.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 17, 2015, 08:40:01 AM
It's not a country,  it's small factions and how do you deal with that in war?

(http://www.physics911.net/tech-resource-library/predator-drone-crowd-control.jpg)

I know that there have been many civilian casualties as a result of drone strikes, and I don't love all aspects of the program, but this is basically the only option without putting US soldiers in harms way.
Ah, The Bravery of Being Out of Range. I've got no problem using targeted drone strikes in plenty of the situations we do. I do have a problem with treating the whole thing as some heroic act, or saying that the people we're knocking off have no business calling us pussies for doing it.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 17, 2015, 08:51:35 AM
I said Friday night that I suspected the French would handle this much better than we did.

France's state of emergency may last months
Hollande to propose changes to constitution such as increased surveillance and stripping citizenship amid safety threat.
 (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/france-state-emergency-months-151116155912054.html)

What were you saying?
I was saying that I suspected they'd handle it better, although I wasn't real crazy about Hollande's "we're at war" rhetoric as it sounded just like ours. What I still hope is that the French people have the balls to not sell themselves out the same way we did. When we did what he's proposing, nobody gave a second thought to creating a surveillance state. We just did it and patted ourselves on the back when it was done. I'll wait and see if the French give it a little more consideration. Hopefully they'll demonstrate a bit more courage and sanity.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 17, 2015, 09:03:14 AM
It's not a country,  it's small factions and how do you deal with that in war?

*snip*

I know that there have been many civilian casualties as a result of drone strikes, and I don't love all aspects of the program, but this is basically the only option without putting US soldiers in harms way.
Ah, The Bravery of Being Out of Range. I've got no problem using targeted drone strikes in plenty of the situations we do. I do have a problem with treating the whole thing as some heroic act, or saying that the people we're knocking off have no business calling us pussies for doing it.

I'd rather win a war by being a pussy than lose while trying to look brave. Also, not having ground troops means less gear behind to fall into enemy hands. If ISIS had access to this kind of technology, or any or the worlds' other military for that matter, they'd be all over it. The objective in war is to destroy your enemy while suffering as few casualties as possible. We've simply taken it to the next level. There's no nobility in sending 20 soldiers into a situation and risking their lives when this option is available. It'd be like sending in someone to kill a target with a handgun rather than having a capable sniper take them out from a half mile away.

It's ugly, I'll give you that, but I'd rather see these things shot out of the sky over F16's or gunner ships with Americans on them.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 17, 2015, 09:26:02 AM
Preaching to the choir, lads. I get it and I agree with it. Just don't treat it as heroic and don't get pissy when the guys on the other side rightly question your manliness. There are plenty of highly relative things in a situation such as this, and one man's badass is another man's chickenshit.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 17, 2015, 09:27:08 AM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b6/ef/05/b6ef05717d1b7c3fc25ba0fa06cb6268.jpg)
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2015, 09:41:43 AM
Preaching to the choir, lads. I get it and I agree with it. Just don't treat it as heroic and don't get pissy when the guys on the other side rightly question your manliness. There are plenty of highly relative things in a situation such as this, and one man's badass is another man's chickenshit.

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but who cares what ISIS thinks or if they call us pussies for using drones? 

I'd rather win a war by being a pussy than lose while trying to look brave.

That's what I am feeling. 
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 17, 2015, 09:44:02 AM
Preaching to the choir, lads. I get it and I agree with it. Just don't treat it as heroic and don't get pissy when the guys on the other side rightly question your manliness. There are plenty of highly relative things in a situation such as this, and one man's badass is another man's chickenshit.

Whose manliness? Except for the actual kids we send out to harm's way, all wars are fought by proxy. Governments send the military to do their bidding, generals order them around from relative safety, and the general everyday public like you and me have nothing to do with it all. I want Daesh to be killed and wiped off the map. Sending some of our 18 year old kids to get killed in the process so we can feel better about being "badass" is unnecessary and pointless.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2015, 09:55:48 AM
Preaching to the choir, lads. I get it and I agree with it. Just don't treat it as heroic and don't get pissy when the guys on the other side rightly question your manliness. There are plenty of highly relative things in a situation such as this, and one man's badass is another man's chickenshit.

Whose manliness? Except for the actual kids we send out to harm's way, all wars are fought by proxy. Governments send the military to do their bidding, generals order them around from relative safety, and the general everyday public like you and me have nothing to do with it all. I want Daesh to be killed and wiped off the map. Sending some of our 18 year old kids to get killed in the process so we can feel better about being "badass" is unnecessary and pointless.

However, I believe troops on the ground will be necessary to wipe them off the map, minus going nuclear which while sounds fun and all and is easy to say "nuke em off the planet" realistically that cannot be on the table.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 17, 2015, 10:00:43 AM
You guys are arguing with nobody. I've defended our use of drone strikes a couple of times already. I just think there's a lot of hypocrisy from people about how we view the various players.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2015, 10:03:57 AM
Al Jazeera Headline: "ISIS calls the west a pussy for using drones"

Just read this about Anonymous and their war against ISIS as well, but this quote sounds like the same quote above

"The #Anonymous hackers threatened in new video release that they will carry out a major hack operation on the Islamic state (idiots)"

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/hackers-vs-terrorists-isis-says-anonymous-idiots-declaring-134503807.html (https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/hackers-vs-terrorists-isis-says-anonymous-idiots-declaring-134503807.html)

Let's call them pussies and idiots for using their tech against us  :lol
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Nekov on November 17, 2015, 11:32:31 AM
It's not a country,  it's small factions and how do you deal with that in war?

(http://www.physics911.net/tech-resource-library/predator-drone-crowd-control.jpg)

I know that there have been many civilian casualties as a result of drone strikes, and I don't love all aspects of the program, but this is basically the only option without putting US soldiers in harms way.

Yeah, but by putting soldiers out of harms way you are increasing the chances of collateral damage and innocent people being killed. Soldiers are prepared for war and should be the ones in place dealing with all of this.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 17, 2015, 12:46:41 PM
And plenty of innocent civilians are killed when we start shelling villages with tanks and mortars as well. I'm sure trigger happy, adrenaline filled soldiers accidentally kill innocents all the time. Ground troops also allow our enemies to take civilians as hostages and we leave behind equipment that can lead to countless more civilian deaths. Civilians will never be spared in these scenarios. I don't like it, but that's war. It sucks and it's extremely unfortunate that we as a species still have to partake in it in this day and age. Every war the United States has ever fought has seen huge numbers of civilian casualties. It's not something exclusive and new to the drone program.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2015, 12:54:48 PM
And plenty of innocent civilians are killed when we start shelling villages with tanks and mortars as well. I'm sure trigger happy, adrenaline filled soldiers accidentally kill innocents all the time. I don't like it, but that's war. It sucks and it's extremely unfortunate that we as a species still have to partake in it in this day and age. Every war the United States has ever fought has seen huge numbers of civilian casualties. It's not something exclusive and new to the drone program.

Not to sound like I am not caring or anything like that, but if its not our drones killing innocents accidentally on pursuit to killing the bad guys, those bad guys in ISIS are going to kill the innocents at even higher numbers.   Sadly there is no way around death in war.  I dont think anyone wants to be in this position, but it is where we are.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 17, 2015, 01:11:58 PM
I reckon at the end of the day drones limit civvy casualties. They tend to be used on a far more targeted basis, and when you're just trying to explode one person in particular it's best for everybody. Moreover, drone strikes tend to happen more out in the Styx than within populated areas. Lastly, since you've got no skin in the game you tend to be more patient and less fearful. All of these stack up so that you're going to be creating fewer bad guys, which is always the concern when using military means against a social movement. 

The flip-side is that we also tend to be more cavalier about when we barbecue somebody. There have been several examples that were outright bullshit. When warfare becomes safe and easy it's all to easy to avail yourself of the martial option. This represents a whole new slew of problems, but more on a philosophical level. War is supposed to be ugly, ugly business. We've made it nice and painless for our side and that just doesn't really lend itself well to being the good guy we like to think we are.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2015, 01:54:17 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/11/17/france-russia-pummel-isis-stronghold-as-critics-blast-us-rules-engagement/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/11/17/france-russia-pummel-isis-stronghold-as-critics-blast-us-rules-engagement/)

Quote
U.S. rules of engagement and the overarching desire to minimize collateral damage are holding back the true force of U.S. air power, while Paris and Moscow have taken off the gloves following the bombing of a Russian airliner and Friday's horrific attacks in the French capital, according to one retired four-star general.

A lot of good info in that article about how ISIS hides in with the civilians because they know the US will not use a drone strike in that situation.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 17, 2015, 01:57:26 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/11/17/france-russia-pummel-isis-stronghold-as-critics-blast-us-rules-engagement/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/11/17/france-russia-pummel-isis-stronghold-as-critics-blast-us-rules-engagement/)

Quote
U.S. rules of engagement and the overarching desire to minimize collateral damage are holding back the true force of U.S. air power, while Paris and Moscow have taken off the gloves following the bombing of a Russian airliner and Friday's horrific attacks in the French capital, according to one retired four-star general.

A lot of good info in that article about how ISIS hides in with the civilians because they know the US will not use a drone strike in that situation.

I'd be curious to see our response if something happened on US soil. If a Paris-like event is carried out in the states, I don't see us being anywhere near as reserved as we are now.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 17, 2015, 02:01:33 PM
About what?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Calvin6s on November 17, 2015, 02:02:35 PM
About what?
Letting Russia beat their ass.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 17, 2015, 02:03:29 PM
About what?
Letting Russia beat their ass.

Seeing as they took down a Russian plane, I believe Russia has every right.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Calvin6s on November 17, 2015, 02:03:54 PM

Russia-France military cooperation in Syria, a first since World War II
 (http://www.firstpost.com/world/russia-france-military-cooperation-in-syria-a-first-since-world-war-ii-2510850.html)
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 17, 2015, 02:19:30 PM
I've got no problem with the US using a limited ROE and I've got no problem with Russia, France or any other nation bombing them off the face of the Earth. In fact I think it's a fantastic arrangement. I wasn't aware that Donald said anything of the sort, but I've been on the train for quite some time. Let somebody else be the Great Satan for a while.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 17, 2015, 02:21:58 PM
Stadium in Hanover evacuated before Germany  Netherlands game because of credible bomb threats.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2015, 02:29:10 PM
I've got no problem with the US using a limited ROE and I've got no problem with Russia, France or any other nation bombing them off the face of the Earth. In fact I think it's a fantastic arrangement. I wasn't aware that Donald said anything of the sort, but I've been on the train for quite some time. Let somebody else be the Great Satan for a while.

This is how I feel as well.  France and Russia have good reason to go further into this war now so let them have it. 

I'd be curious to see our response if something happened on US soil. If a Paris-like event is carried out in the states, I don't see us being anywhere near as reserved as we are now.

It wasn't long after 9/11 that we had troops on the ground, I think if ISIS did something like Paris on US soil I would expect similar results. 

Stadium in Hanover evacuated before Germany  Netherlands game because of credible bomb threats.

They just evacuated our LA data center because a suspicious package was found next to the US Post Office that shares the same building as the data center.  Im not saying none of these are legit threats, but there is definitely a heightened sense of awareness right now.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Calvin6s on November 17, 2015, 02:38:53 PM
I've got no problem with the US using a limited ROE and I've got no problem with Russia, France or any other nation bombing them off the face of the Earth. In fact I think it's a fantastic arrangement. I wasn't aware that Donald said anything of the sort, but I've been on the train for quite some time. Let somebody else be the Great Satan for a while.

Trump basically said (prior to the France attack) that we should just let Russia (right when they made the announcement they were stepping up big time in Syria) do our work for us.  He was laughed at and told he didn't know what he was talking about.  Last debate, Jeb Bush compared it to playing a board game like Monopoly (his attempt to cast Trump as the Monopoly man while totally missing the obvious Risk comparison).

But the greatest defense he put forward was in an interview with O'Reilly.  Bill said something like "You want Russia to take control of Syria" to which Trump responded "do you want us to take control of Syria?"

It was pretty good.

The funny thing is, Trump isn't the one playing the board game.  Most are against Russia taking too big a role because "that should be us" so we can color in Syria as our latest rival turned friend (fake friend).  That's board game mentality.  Trump actually is thinking more long term.  Responsibility for Syria after ISIS and Assad are gone.  <shudder>  At least he can look to an end game and decide "wait.  If that is where this is leading, then pass."
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 17, 2015, 02:50:08 PM
I've got no problem with the US using a limited ROE and I've got no problem with Russia, France or any other nation bombing them off the face of the Earth. In fact I think it's a fantastic arrangement. I wasn't aware that Donald said anything of the sort, but I've been on the train for quite some time. Let somebody else be the Great Satan for a while.

Trump basically said (prior to the France attack) that we should just let Russia (right when they made the announcement they were stepping up big time in Syria) do our work for us.  He was laughed at and told he didn't know what he was talking about.  Last debate, Jeb Bush compared it to playing a board game like Monopoly (his attempt to cast Trump as the Monopoly man while totally missing the obvious Risk comparison).

But the greatest defense he put forward was in an interview with O'Reilly.  Bill said something like "You want Russia to take control of Syria" to which Trump responded "do you want us to take control of Syria?"

It was pretty good.

The funny thing is, Trump isn't the one playing the board game.  Most are against Russia taking too big a role because "that should be us" so we can color in Syria as our latest rival turned friend (fake friend).  That's board game mentality.  Trump actually is thinking more long term.  Responsibility for Syria after ISIS and Assad are gone.  <shudder>  At least he can look to an end game and decide "wait.  If that is where this is leading, then pass."

I agree with that. At the same time, wasn't Donald rattling the sabre about how we should be eliminating ISIL right damn now!

It wasn't long after 9/11 that we had troops on the ground
And that was quite impressive.  That war is the blueprint.
The first few weeks certainly were. About a month or so in it became the blueprint for how to fuck everything up American style.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on November 17, 2015, 03:02:25 PM
It wasn't long after 9/11 that we had troops on the ground
And that was quite impressive.  That war is the blueprint.
The first few weeks certainly were. About a month or so in it became the blueprint for how to fuck everything up American style.

True and true.

I think if ISIS did something like Paris on US soil I would expect similar results. 
Why?  The only way I see anything significant happening is if poll numbers tanked from a weak response.

If Americans were killed, just like in 9/11, there would be a huge uprour about how we aren't doing enough and how we want revenge blah blah blah.  Similar to the response of 9/11, the one thing that event did was unite the people of this country against the terrorist.  Granted, if your point is that you think Obama would be weak in his response, than I may agree with you in that aspect.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 17, 2015, 03:25:58 PM
]I agree with that. At the same time, wasn't Donald rattling the sabre about how we should be eliminating ISIL right damn now!
I originally talked about how in some ways he aligns with my duality on conflict.  Don't go looking for it, but if say you are going to do it, then don't do it without the intent to finish it. 

Trump mainly was talking about cutting off their funding by separating them from the oil supply.

It looks as though he is on board with Jeb Bush now in building a "tremendous" safe zone within Syria.  I find the rationale between Paul and Bush on this fascinating as I like what both are saying and would love to hear them go back and forth drilling down again and again.

Quote
The first few weeks certainly were. About a month or so in it became the blueprint for how to fuck everything up American style.
I frequently talked to people stationed there during Bush's term.  They described Afghanistan as kinda boring.  So your "months" timing isn't lining up with mine.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/world/asia/31history.html?referer=

Also,
"Stationed in Afghanistan during Bush's term" is a 7.5 year window.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 17, 2015, 03:38:33 PM
I'm saying read the article as it was not well handled from the get go, our guys were given insufficent resources and it led to the longest war in our history. A few of your friends being bored doesn't change that. (I've had many friends serve there with different stories, but anecdotal views don't do much).


What was the point in bringong up McChrystal?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 17, 2015, 03:50:20 PM
They were given insufficient resources once their job became to convert Afghanistan into America II. During the early days of the war massive resources weren't a problem because they weren't required. That was a job for a very small number of guys operating on the ground with locals and with the ability to make a phone call and have something blown to tiny bits when needed. That's also how it was started. It just didn't sit well with the military establishment that was pressuring Dumbass to change course.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 17, 2015, 03:55:18 PM
Well, there were objectives that weren't met (the most obvious one, UBL), and areas that were never cleared of Taliban activity, e.g. Korengal valley. I guess it depends on what objectives to look at. Removing the Taliban from immediate power? Yeah. Removing their influence, not so much.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 17, 2015, 04:05:21 PM
Ah yeah, I thought you were tying to bring Obama into this. I'll remind you that we are talking about 2001 - 2003 and what we can learn from our handling of the beginning of the war. I'd ask you to not bring this into yet another Bush v. Obama poo flinging contest (especially since Obama and what happened 8 years later literally has nothing to do with the actual conversation we're having) but that's clearly falling on deaf ears at this point.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 17, 2015, 04:18:42 PM
I am not an Obama apologist, I never even voted for the guy, and it was el Barto who called him a dumbass (he has names for both he and Obama). You have me and every post I make painted into this little box that is unfair and frankly ridiculous.

When discussing a cautiomary tale of us rushing into a response, Afghanistan is not a great blueprint. That is more than fair to say without a snarky response about Obama somehow needing to be shoehorned in.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: jonnybaxy on November 17, 2015, 04:22:22 PM
All I'm currently seeing is people saying that we must just "be nice an unite" and the world will be peaceful.

Are people too bubblewrapped now?

What next? Free hugs for ISIS? Yeah that'll work!

As I said in my immigration in Europe thread, a lot of people are more interested in stopping an anti Islam backlash than preventing this happening again, I surely can't be the only one annoyed at this 'unite' ideology.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 17, 2015, 04:41:49 PM
Actually, I didn't bring Dumbass into it. I brought Cheney/Rumsfeld into it. In fact, saying that W was pressured into a bad move is about the kindest thing I can say about his role in Afghanistan. Moreover, you were questioning my time frame, and the time frame I was using was the shift from covert war to military war. That's why I brought those two guys up as an example of how to fuck things up. It wasn't intended as a dig at Dumbass, but rather a point of reference.


edit: Oh, and sadly I never came up with a nickname for Obama that suits me (at least that wouldn't be seen as overtly racist).
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: TL on November 17, 2015, 04:52:32 PM
All I'm currently seeing is people saying that we must just "be nice an unite" and the world will be peaceful.

Are people too bubblewrapped now?

What next? Free hugs for ISIS? Yeah that'll work!

As I said in my immigration in Europe thread, a lot of people are more interested in stopping an anti Islam backlash than preventing this happening again, I surely can't be the only one annoyed at this 'unite' ideology.

ISIS is to Islam what the KKK were to Christianity.

You know who hates ISIS more than anyone? Moderate Muslims. They're also the group who have suffered the most losses of life at the hands of ISIS.

ISIS wants the west to become more hostile toward Islam in general. They want to be able to point at the west and say "See, they hate Muslims!". If anything, anti-Islamic sentiment in the west helps ISIS recruitment.

Everyone here wants ISIS stopped. Everyone here wants safety and security for our fellow citizens and allies. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. It's understandable that this whole situation can provoke anger, and can be quite scary, especially since there's not a clear solution. Unity is important, because we're facing an opponent who is trying to provoke division.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: TL on November 17, 2015, 05:03:17 PM
I believe Christianity also had a lot to do with the move to end slavery, so that kinda doesn't really work.
Calvin, that's kinda my point there. That the extremists are not representative of the larger group.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: TL on November 17, 2015, 05:18:49 PM
I'm not really seeing the Muslim mirror in that however.

I do believe I saw quite a few "regular" Palestinians cheering on 9/11.  Much of the Muslim support was clearly based in fear more than solidarity.

Also, the point that we should ignore the "Islamic" part of Islamic Extremist (Jihadi, Terrorist) is an all or nothing argument.

No. It isn't. It literally isn't.
ISIL are as representative of Muslims as the KKK or the Westboro Church are of Christianity.

You saw a few Muslims who didn't like the US once? Good for you. I'm sure that means that millions of people definitely share that exact sentiment.
I've seen Christians advocate turning the entire middle east into glass. I absolutely don't think all or even most Christians share that view.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Nekov on November 17, 2015, 05:27:11 PM
Also, the point that we should ignore the "Islamic" part of Islamic Extremist (Jihadi, Terrorist) is an all or nothing argument.

This guy (https://www.facebook.com/issambayanofficial/videos/731193436971783/) has an interesting point of view about the subject.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on November 18, 2015, 05:53:44 AM
All I'm currently seeing is people saying that we must just "be nice an unite" and the world will be peaceful.

Are people too bubblewrapped now?

What next? Free hugs for ISIS? Yeah that'll work!

As I said in my immigration in Europe thread, a lot of people are more interested in stopping an anti Islam backlash than preventing this happening again, I surely can't be the only one annoyed at this 'unite' ideology.

ISIS is to Islam what the KKK were to Christianity.

You know who hates ISIS more than anyone? Moderate Muslims. They're also the group who have suffered the most losses of life at the hands of ISIS.

ISIS wants the west to become more hostile toward Islam in general. They want to be able to point at the west and say "See, they hate Muslims!". If anything, anti-Islamic sentiment in the west helps ISIS recruitment.

Everyone here wants ISIS stopped. Everyone here wants safety and security for our fellow citizens and allies. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. It's understandable that this whole situation can provoke anger, and can be quite scary, especially since there's not a clear solution. Unity is important, because we're facing an opponent who is trying to provoke division.

I would think moderate Muslims have the most reasons to hate ISIS, the problem is, where are they?  The President of Jordan has been pretty vocally against ISIS (and has taken action as well), but what about the rest of the the moderate Muslims?  I don't hear anything from them or see any action from them, so it is hard to believe if they actually do hate ISIS (im not claiming they like ISIS, I just think actions speak louder than words).
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: jonnybaxy on November 18, 2015, 05:54:04 AM
Saying "Islam isn't the problem" doesn't take away the threat....

Sure Islam in general isn't a problem but Middle eastern Islam kind of is a problem, they are taught to hate the west, which doesn't bother me really, but when the MAJORITY of them believe that someone who converts from Islam should be killed. I get rather concerned about what the penalties could be for people in the west. Especially when I'm not allowed to dislike MIDDLE EASTERN Islam....

Could these not be described as extreme views?

(http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-3.png)

(http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-9.png)
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: MrBoom_shack-a-lack on November 18, 2015, 08:19:13 AM
Have to say big props to the french police for the early morning raid. Looked like a well organized operation which if I understood correctly was achieved by gathering intel from broken cell phones they found from the terrorists.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Stadler on November 18, 2015, 10:33:34 AM
I'm not really seeing the Muslim mirror in that however.

I do believe I saw quite a few "regular" Palestinians cheering on 9/11.  Much of the Muslim support was clearly based in fear more than solidarity.

Also, the point that we should ignore the "Islamic" part of Islamic Extremist (Jihadi, Terrorist) is an all or nothing argument.

No. It isn't. It literally isn't.
ISIL are as representative of Muslims as the KKK or the Westboro Church are of Christianity.

You saw a few Muslims who didn't like the US once? Good for you. I'm sure that means that millions of people definitely share that exact sentiment.
I've seen Christians advocate turning the entire middle east into glass. I absolutely don't think all or even most Christians share that view.

Being a Christian, and having almost nothing except for my citizenship in common with the average KKK member or Westboro Church practitioner, I can relate to this idea.  Good post, TL.   But I would add, that while I am not an evangelist of any sort (I don't even play songs for people that I like; I respect them enough to arrive at their own answers) I do feel obligated to set the record straight when I see people either abusing my chosen faith (or the tenets thereof) or stereotyping against my chosen faith.   

I think that while it's probably fair to say that most moderate Muslims don't share the beliefs of ISIL, I think the "outcry" is not as loud as it should be to reflect that extremely large fraction of 1.6 billion people. 
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 18, 2015, 01:39:07 PM

(http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp1-3.png)

This makes me wonder how many people in America would be in favor of instituting Christian law. Within that context I don't think this is all that surprising.  Nationwide I'd suspect it to be around a third. But you go into Oklahoma and Kansas and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see easily into the fifties or higher. A place like Tunisia isn't going to be split down the middle into blue and red states, so they're going be somewhat unified.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: jonnybaxy on November 18, 2015, 01:56:46 PM
By that chart I'm showing how many people support laws that behead people for changing religion, stone people for adultery and amputate for theft...

Is it not clear that middle eastern/Sub-Saharan African Muslims simply can't integrate or support the west's culture?

And as I said, I'd consider those pretty extreme views.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 18, 2015, 02:09:41 PM
Something I've been pondering is a passage from an Atlantic article on ISIL, about the relationship between Islam and their behavior. To paraphrase:

To the extent that Islam is a thing, they're one in the same. Essentially, Islam is what Moslems do. Moslems draw their inspiration/motivation from the same book, but they interpret it differently. So with that in mind what makes ISIL's view of Islam any different than anybody else's?


I think this is valid. At the same time I think it's no different than any other religion. In essence, Christianity is what Christians do, and they damn sure have their own interpretations of what God wants. We all have our preferences for the Christians with points of view closer to our own, the Presbyterians are now opposed to capital punishment, for example. That suits me just fine. Yet I have no place to say that they're right or that the snake handling Holiness-Pentacostals of Mississippi are wrong. To that end, how do we separate God Hates Fags from Christianity. Or the people who thought that being immolated in a struggle with evil was their destiny?

I think we all similarly dislike the WBC and the subset of the Branch Davidians, just like we do the intolerant assholes in ISIL. Most Christians would simply say "well, the WBC doesn't represent anything but a perverted form of Christianity." Eh, whatever. I'm just not sure I can get on board with blasting an entire religion because we think their tenets suck ass based on the way they're expressed by some assholes, while completely dismissing our own assholes.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: jonnybaxy on November 18, 2015, 02:28:54 PM
As I've said, I'm not blasting the whole religion just the region where (what I'd describe as) extreme ideology really strong/acceptable.

The sphere which I'd call extreme is a lot larger than I can say about Christianity.

I'm not even sure I can say there is a certain concentrated place for extreme Christianity, I'm not sure I could even the vatican city in that category now, the current pope is certainly combating people being extreme about it.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 18, 2015, 02:52:33 PM
That wasn't directed at anybody. I was posting it simply because it's a way of looking at it that I hadn't considered. Or perhaps just presented in a manner that makes it appear so.

As for finding concentrations, there are plenty of places in America far more devout in their beliefs than The Vatican. Catholicism is somewhat static and isn't really under any threat. Catholics do what they do and that's that.  American evangelicals are feel angry and threatened.

It seems that 53% of Republicans support proclaiming America a Christian nation, understanding that it would invalidate the constitution. You put that to some place like Wichita and I suspect the number goes up quite a bit. Moreover, You wouldn't have any trouble replacing state law with God's law.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: senecadawg2 on November 18, 2015, 03:47:05 PM
Those statistics about instituting Death Penalty for conversion are troublesome, to say the least.

Muslims, for the most part, do not like ISIS.  But it is the tactics they use that they don't like.  If asked about the final goals, the disagreement goes down.

It's not that I disagree, but I have to ask... On what grounds are you making this claim? What are the final goals of ISIS, anyways?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 18, 2015, 10:19:41 PM
None of the 8 terrorists came in as refugees.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 19, 2015, 12:51:33 AM
It was a factual statement that cleared up a previously incorrect report and presumption. I don't care to think what you're accusing me of.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 19, 2015, 05:44:14 AM
I've been reading that of the eight identified gunman, none were refugees.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: jonnybaxy on November 19, 2015, 06:23:51 AM
I've been reading that of the eight identified gunman, none were refugees.

At least one is suspected to have, a few others fought within Syria, So they possibly could have come with the refugees (I'm unsure how else they could).


Omar Ismail Mostefai: "In recent years he appears to have travelled to Syria and may have also spent time in Algeria.
A senior Turkish official confirmed to the BBC that Mostefai had entered Turkey in 2013 and there was no record of him leaving the country."

Ahmad al-Mohammad: "The Paris prosecutor's office said fingerprints from the dead attacker matched those of a person who came to Europe with migrants via the Greek island of Leros"

Bilal Hadfi: "Some reports suggest he once fought with IS in Syria."

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34832512)

Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 19, 2015, 06:27:08 AM
I've been reading that of the eight identified gunman, none were refugees.

At least one is suspected to have, a few others fought within Syria, So they possibly could have come with the refugees (I'm unsure how else they could).


Omar Ismail Mostefai: "In recent years he appears to have travelled to Syria and may have also spent time in Algeria.
A senior Turkish official confirmed to the BBC that Mostefai had entered Turkey in 2013 and there was no record of him leaving the country."

Ahmad al-Mohammad: "The Paris prosecutor's office said fingerprints from the dead attacker matched those of a person who came to Europe with migrants via the Greek island of Leros"

Bilal Hadfi: "Some reports suggest he once fought with IS in Syria."

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34832512)

"The information may throw a more cautionary light on our reactions to refugees - for contrary to rumour, none of the named suspects recently arrived in Europe from Syria or elsewhere, and most had been born - or grew up - in France and Belgium.

The identities of the eight people directly involved can be broken down as follows:

Bilal Hadfi, 20 - French (living in Belgium)

Ismaël Omar Mostefaï, 29 - French

Samy Amimour, 28 - French

Ibrahim Abdeslam, 31 - French (living in Belgium)

Salah Abdeslam, 26 - French (living in Belgium)

Hamza Attou, 21 - Belgian

Mohamed Amri, 27 - Belgian (born in Morocco)

*Eighth suspect (unidentified) carrying stolen passport in name of 'Ahmad al-Mohammad', 25 - from Idlib, Syria

The alleged mastermind is Abdelhamid Abaaoud, 27, from Belgium. "

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-attacks-the-eight-terror-suspects-named-so-far-all-have-eu-passports-a6738821.html
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: jonnybaxy on November 19, 2015, 06:39:38 AM
That doesn't take away that some of them fought with ISIS in Syria.

Because they were born in France, it doesn't mean they never left.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 19, 2015, 08:33:16 AM
I love how whether or not they came in as refugees is a political football here in America. And PC shaming is just about as fucking stupid.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: jonnybaxy on November 19, 2015, 01:01:00 PM
Quote
EU to Revise Travel Ban Rules (http://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-to-revise-travel-ban-rules-1447877634)
The European Union will revise its rules on travel bans, making it mandatory for member states to share the names of people denied entry and wanted felons, so that they don’t slip unnoticed into another EU country.

At long last!
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 19, 2015, 03:50:53 PM
I don't know how exactly Trump wants us to create an autonomous region in Syria and Iraq away from ISIS, Assad, the effects of the civil war, and to protect it. Especially I wonder how that isn't nation building.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 19, 2015, 11:46:11 PM
That's kinda my point, though. The Kurds are hardly protected from ISIS, hell they're the ones actually engaging them. How are we supposed to protect a large number of people from ISIS as its situated right now? There is no real analogy we can look to.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 20, 2015, 04:07:26 AM
Right I got it, I just mean it's not like a no fly zone would do bupkis now to protect anyone from ISIS. If we were to try to protect an autonomous region of refugees, I don't see how we could defend it since this enemy is so different than the world has seen really. Traditional measures like no fly zones wouldn't do much, we'd probably need an occupying force.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 20, 2015, 05:41:37 AM
Think this is related?

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gunmen-take-170-hostage-radisson-hotel-bamako-mali-n466831?cid=sm_tw&hootPostID=0d0ee9130c317f94abf60b8f9db6623f

Gunmen Take 170 Hostage at Radisson Hotel in Bamako, Mali

Quote
Gunmen stormed a hotel packed with foreigners in the former French colony of Mali on Friday, taking 170 guests and workers hostages, U.S. Embassy officials and a hotel spokeswoman told NBC News.

Some managed to escape the upscale Radisson Blu, in the capital Bamako, but military officials told The Associated Press that at least three people had been killed.

The U.S. Embassy described it as an "ongoing active-shooter operation."

The raid on the hotel, which was popular with foreigners and used by airline crews, comes a week after attackers killed 129 people in Paris.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on November 20, 2015, 05:52:46 AM
These things seem to be happening more and more.  I dont think that has been determined to be ISIS yet, that article and another I just read said possible al qaeda link.  Regardless, definitely radical islam.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on November 20, 2015, 06:12:32 AM
Been watching that all morning.  Please tell me we aren't going to have a terrorist off.

Thats what I immediately thought, are these terrorists groups going to start trying to one up each other?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 20, 2015, 06:14:31 AM
Been watching that all morning.  Please tell me we aren't going to have a terrorist off.

Thats what I immediately thought, are these terrorists groups going to start trying to one up each other?

I really hope not. That'd spell disaster if it escalated quickly enough.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: jonnybaxy on November 20, 2015, 06:14:45 AM
Been watching that all morning.  Please tell me we aren't going to have a terrorist off.

Thats what I immediately thought, are these terrorists groups going to start trying to one up each other?

Or fight eachother?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 20, 2015, 06:15:55 AM
Been watching that all morning.  Please tell me we aren't going to have a terrorist off.

Thats what I immediately thought, are these terrorists groups going to start trying to one up each other?

Or fight eachother?

I don't think so. They'd call a truce if it meant that together they could send the rest of the planet into chaos.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 20, 2015, 07:25:32 AM
I've read that hostages that were able to recite from the Koran were allowed to leave.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 20, 2015, 08:11:52 AM
I know that the French military was pretty active in Mali a while back trying to root out extremists. I suspect this is trying to send a message, if not payback of some sort.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 21, 2015, 02:30:59 AM
Brussels is in complete lock down with terror level at its highest. Mayor has told individuals to avoid public areas. Armored police cars are out. It really seems they've uncovered something (or think they did) and are worried it might be too late.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on November 21, 2015, 04:40:37 PM
It's long been said the best thing to unite a people is a common enemy to rally against. For Russia and the West, ISIS seems to be taking over that position. Tensions have seemingly calmed with Russia over the last couple weeks. I obviously wish it were under different circumstances, but it is nice to not see Putin and the Kremlin portrayed as wanton boogie men.


China is now saying they're "declaring war on ISIS." Things are going to get interesting in the coming months.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Lucien on November 21, 2015, 05:04:07 PM
Well, if World War III is going to happen, I'd be just a bit happier knowing that our side far outnumbers the other side.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: KevShmev on November 21, 2015, 05:09:51 PM
What scares me is how much politicians suck when talking about this.  Stupid ass Republicans are taking this as another opportunity to criticize the Democrats, and Obama talks with such ambivalence about ISIS, like they are nothing more than annoyance, while looking angry whenever talking about Republicans.  It's like, he has far more hatred for those who disagree with him in his own country than savages from another who want to kill us all.  And they all wonder why many distrust politicians in general so much. :tdwn :tdwn
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Prog Snob on November 21, 2015, 05:34:00 PM
What scares me is how much politicians suck when talking about this.  Stupid ass Republicans are taking this as another opportunity to criticize the Democrats, and Obama talks with such ambivalence about ISIS, like they are nothing more than annoyance, while looking angry whenever talking about Republicans.  It's like, he has far more hatred for those who disagree with him in his own country than savages from another who want to kill us all.  And they all wonder why many distrust politicians in general so much. :tdwn :tdwn

I couldn't agree more. I'm tired of these terrorists being talked about so casually by people whose job is to fucking protect us. It's no longer about liberal vs conservative or Republican vs Democrat anymore. We're fighting a common enemy which should unify us yet I feel like these bureaucratic butt pirates still don't get it.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on November 23, 2015, 08:51:04 AM
What scares me is how much politicians suck when talking about this.  Stupid ass Republicans are taking this as another opportunity to criticize the Democrats, and Obama talks with such ambivalence about ISIS, like they are nothing more than annoyance, while looking angry whenever talking about Republicans.  It's like, he has far more hatred for those who disagree with him in his own country than savages from another who want to kill us all.  And they all wonder why many distrust politicians in general so much. :tdwn :tdwn

I couldn't agree more. I'm tired of these terrorists being talked about so casually by people whose job is to fucking protect us. It's no longer about liberal vs conservative or Republican vs Democrat anymore. We're fighting a common enemy which should unify us yet I feel like these bureaucratic butt pirates still don't get it.

If Russia and the US can agree on this, why can't Democrats and Republicans?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 23, 2015, 08:58:04 AM
What scares me is how much politicians suck when talking about this.  Stupid ass Republicans are taking this as another opportunity to criticize the Democrats, and Obama talks with such ambivalence about ISIS, like they are nothing more than annoyance, while looking angry whenever talking about Republicans.  It's like, he has far more hatred for those who disagree with him in his own country than savages from another who want to kill us all.  And they all wonder why many distrust politicians in general so much. :tdwn :tdwn

I couldn't agree more. I'm tired of these terrorists being talked about so casually by people whose job is to fucking protect us. It's no longer about liberal vs conservative or Republican vs Democrat anymore. We're fighting a common enemy which should unify us yet I feel like these bureaucratic butt pirates still don't get it.

If Russia and the US can agree on this, why can't Democrats and Republicans?

Because Americans are stubborn and would rather die than have to acknowledge that the other side might make a correct statement every now and again.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 23, 2015, 09:53:47 AM
Last I heard (this morning, actually) we're still trying to help the people the Russians are bombing the bejeezus out of. We all agree that ISIL is bad, but that certainly doesn't mean reconsidering long-held positions on Syria.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Prog Snob on November 23, 2015, 12:32:11 PM
What scares me is how much politicians suck when talking about this.  Stupid ass Republicans are taking this as another opportunity to criticize the Democrats, and Obama talks with such ambivalence about ISIS, like they are nothing more than annoyance, while looking angry whenever talking about Republicans.  It's like, he has far more hatred for those who disagree with him in his own country than savages from another who want to kill us all.  And they all wonder why many distrust politicians in general so much. :tdwn :tdwn

I couldn't agree more. I'm tired of these terrorists being talked about so casually by people whose job is to fucking protect us. It's no longer about liberal vs conservative or Republican vs Democrat anymore. We're fighting a common enemy which should unify us yet I feel like these bureaucratic butt pirates still don't get it.

If Russia and the US can agree on this, why can't Democrats and Republicans?

Are you talking about Dems vs Repubs in the general population or in Congress? 
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on November 23, 2015, 12:34:54 PM
What scares me is how much politicians suck when talking about this.  Stupid ass Republicans are taking this as another opportunity to criticize the Democrats, and Obama talks with such ambivalence about ISIS, like they are nothing more than annoyance, while looking angry whenever talking about Republicans.  It's like, he has far more hatred for those who disagree with him in his own country than savages from another who want to kill us all.  And they all wonder why many distrust politicians in general so much. :tdwn :tdwn

I couldn't agree more. I'm tired of these terrorists being talked about so casually by people whose job is to fucking protect us. It's no longer about liberal vs conservative or Republican vs Democrat anymore. We're fighting a common enemy which should unify us yet I feel like these bureaucratic butt pirates still don't get it.

If Russia and the US can agree on this, why can't Democrats and Republicans?

Are you talking about Dems vs Repubs in the general population or in Congress?

For me, I am talking congress which is what I thought was referenced.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: kaos2900 on November 24, 2015, 12:40:02 PM
Here we go again.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/hostage-situation-in-northern-french-town-of-roubaix-near-belgium/ar-BBnoRjB
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: kaos2900 on November 24, 2015, 12:42:52 PM
It seems like the world is slowly escalating to a WWIII scenario. And with Turkey fighting with Russia will just stabilize the region even more. As unhappy as I am with the current situation in the US, I'm glad that I don't live in Europe right now.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: jonnybaxy on November 24, 2015, 12:51:14 PM
It seems like the world is slowly escalating to a WWIII scenario. And with Turkey fighting with Russia will just stabilize the region even more. As unhappy as I am with the current situation in the US, I'm glad that I don't live in Europe right now.

Yeah, we're screwed I've no doubt that this is the prelude to a huge European and Middle Eastern war, it's been building for a long time.... I'm surprised it didn't happen after Russia annexed Crimea
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 24, 2015, 12:58:40 PM
Putin is going to eventually bring the hammer down with zero fucks regarding what the US thinks. It sucks because I can't imagine going to war with Russia because Russia attacked Turkey.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: kaos2900 on November 24, 2015, 01:20:21 PM
I'm trying to decide if making a Thanksgiving related joke would be in poor taste with Turkey in the news this week.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 24, 2015, 02:13:20 PM
Putin is going to eventually bring the hammer down with zero fucks regarding what the US thinks. It sucks because I can't imagine going to war with Russia because Russia attacked Turkey.
It takes two sides to really go to war, though. Just because either of us do something silly doesn't mean that it hits the fan. The world is full of neighboring assholes that, despite the ever-present loathing, still don't go to war. Look no further than the DPRK to see an example. Remember when everybody was convinced that India and Pakistan both going nuclear was the precursor to WWIII? Add to that, Putin is deliberative. He's not a cowboy. If he brings the hammer down it'll be because of something far more significant than Turkey being a nuisance.

Moreover, these things happen. As I've said, I think the Turks are acting like dicks, but it's certainly not the first time planes have gotten shot down for airspace violations. Both the US and Russia have a checkered past with regards to that sort of thing. In this case the Turkish shootdown, while plenty uncool, was actually technically warranted.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: kaos2900 on November 25, 2015, 07:05:56 AM
Here's the issue though. Obama is rubbing salt in the wound. We are acting like dicks too. Obama's foreign policy has to be the worst in recent history if not ever. Let's bow to the terrorists and continue to piss off our allies. Way to go!!!
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 25, 2015, 08:09:25 AM
Here's the issue though. Obama is rubbing salt in the wound. We are acting like dicks too. Obama's foreign policy has to be the worst in recent history if not ever. Let's bow to the terrorists and continue to piss off our allies. Way to go!!!
I read an article on BBC yesterday blasting him for not giving arms to the Syrian rebels early on. At that point I decided that he was really fucked either way on this. Aside from the silly D vs R nonsense here, where every decision he makes will be deemed the stupidest move in the history of mankind, there's a very real practical problem with any decision made regarding Syria, Iraq and ISIL as they all relate to each other. I'm not happy about his alienation of Russia and its interests in this matter, but I honestly can't figure out what the right thing to do would have been.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 25, 2015, 08:22:06 AM
Here's the issue though. Obama is rubbing salt in the wound. We are acting like dicks too. Obama's foreign policy has to be the worst in recent history if not ever. Let's bow to the terrorists and continue to piss off our allies. Way to go!!!
I read an article on BBC yesterday blasting him for not giving arms to the Syrian rebels early on. At that point I decided that he was really fucked either way on this. Aside from the silly D vs R nonsense here, where every decision he makes will be deemed the stupidest move in the history of mankind, there's a very real practical problem with any decision made regarding Syria, Iraq and ISIL as they all relate to each other. I'm not happy about his alienation of Russia and its interests in this matter, but I honestly can't figure out what the right thing to do would have been.

I think it's possible that there was no right thing to do. Regardless of the action taken, some people would benefit and some wouldn't. There's really not much of anything we can do in that region that won't throw in a wrench somewhere.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: kaos2900 on November 25, 2015, 08:30:03 AM
Here's the issue though. Obama is rubbing salt in the wound. We are acting like dicks too. Obama's foreign policy has to be the worst in recent history if not ever. Let's bow to the terrorists and continue to piss off our allies. Way to go!!!
I read an article on BBC yesterday blasting him for not giving arms to the Syrian rebels early on. At that point I decided that he was really fucked either way on this. Aside from the silly D vs R nonsense here, where every decision he makes will be deemed the stupidest move in the history of mankind, there's a very real practical problem with any decision made regarding Syria, Iraq and ISIL as they all relate to each other. I'm not happy about his alienation of Russia and its interests in this matter, but I honestly can't figure out what the right thing to do would have been.

I think it's possible that there was no right thing to do. Regardless of the action taken, some people would benefit and some wouldn't. There's really not much of anything we can do in that region that won't throw in a wrench somewhere.

Which is why the best thing to do is nothing. Let it work it out on it's own.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on November 25, 2015, 08:35:19 AM
And doing nothing would still have gotten Obama the "worst foreign policy in history" rap.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Implode on November 25, 2015, 09:04:33 AM
It's too late for us to become isolationist and do nothing. For the past 100 years we've built ourselves up to be the world protector of liberty and freedom. We are the world police force; it's true.

Of course you can agree that we shouldn't be, and I'd agree. But the fact of the matter is that we are, and we're in far too deep to simply do nothing about situations like these.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: Chino on November 25, 2015, 09:13:29 AM
Here's the issue though. Obama is rubbing salt in the wound. We are acting like dicks too. Obama's foreign policy has to be the worst in recent history if not ever. Let's bow to the terrorists and continue to piss off our allies. Way to go!!!
I read an article on BBC yesterday blasting him for not giving arms to the Syrian rebels early on. At that point I decided that he was really fucked either way on this. Aside from the silly D vs R nonsense here, where every decision he makes will be deemed the stupidest move in the history of mankind, there's a very real practical problem with any decision made regarding Syria, Iraq and ISIL as they all relate to each other. I'm not happy about his alienation of Russia and its interests in this matter, but I honestly can't figure out what the right thing to do would have been.

I think it's possible that there was no right thing to do. Regardless of the action taken, some people would benefit and some wouldn't. There's really not much of anything we can do in that region that won't throw in a wrench somewhere.

Which is why the best thing to do is nothing. Let it work it out on it's own.

And I bet if Obama did nothing the media would find a way to complain about that.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: jonnybaxy on November 25, 2015, 03:28:36 PM
It's too late for us to become isolationist and do nothing. For the past 100 years we've built ourselves up to be the world protector of liberty and freedom. We are the world police force; it's true.

Of course you can agree that we shouldn't be, and I'd agree. But the fact of the matter is that we are, and we're in far too deep to simply do nothing about situations like these.

You ever seen Team America World Police?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: hefdaddy42 on March 23, 2016, 08:02:59 AM
Pretty sure I heard on the morning news that the suspects were Belgians, not recent immigrants.

I was hurrying to get out the door, though, so I could have heard wrong.
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on March 23, 2016, 08:47:20 AM
I heard that too, they were Belgians, but I also heard the guy they caught from the paris attacks said that them and as many as 90 other terrorists have been able to mix in with the refugees to get to and from europe/ISIS.  But I can't confirm that is true nor can I recall where I heard it (likely TV news).
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: cramx3 on March 23, 2016, 11:40:38 AM
I heard that too, they were Belgians, but I also heard the guy they caught from the paris attacks said that them and as many as 90 other terrorists have been able to mix in with the refugees to get to and from europe/ISIS.  But I can't confirm that is true nor can I recall where I heard it (likely TV news).
In the New York Times I provided a couple posts above.   Confirmed.

lol  :facepalm:
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on March 23, 2016, 09:33:50 PM

IS trains 400 fighters to attack Europe in wave of bloodshed (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/4fe6b297e6e94b6ebe650367946cff23/trains-400-fighters-attack-europe-wave-bloodshed)
And is that more or less than you expected?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: portnoy311 on March 23, 2016, 11:09:08 PM
You rang?
Title: Re: What is going on in Paris?
Post by: El Barto on March 26, 2016, 10:31:04 AM
Awesome. Now instead of having to trek along through the rain and sleet with the peasants they'll be forced to spend 135€ on a train ticket.