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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: Nihil-Morari on September 26, 2015, 04:50:22 AM

Title: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on September 26, 2015, 04:50:22 AM
One, two, buckle my shoe…

Over the coming weeks/months/years, I shall be doing my very best to keep you guys entertained in learning more about the music of the late great Frank Zappa.
I’ll start with a short informative piece on this discography thread, followed by a short introduction on Frank Zappa and his works (for the complete newcomers to his music). After those two things are behind us we can finally start with album number one. (I'd like to take a couple of days up to a week for people to gather around)

It’s not really common to start one of these threads with a disclaimer, but I feel like I have to. First of all I’m not a doctor of Zappa-ism, haven’t done a major in Zappology (thanks Ben Watson for that word) and I may very well not even be his biggest fan on this forum. Nonetheless I might be one of the most active Zappa fans around here, and I really like to talk about his music, to spread the disease so to speak, so that could well be why I chose to do this thread.
Next to that I’m not a native English speaker, making it even more daunting for myself. In principle I want to do this one album at a time. When doing one album a week, you'd get to around 2 years. I think though that in his later works I could do with 2 albums, or even 3 at a time, we'll see.
Finally I love little winks and nudges to Zappa’s lyrics, conceptual continuity, and his way of writing, so pardon me for not really writing your everyday piece on music. I’ve always thought that writing about a certain artist means you have to think like they did, and act like they did.


(https://images.musictimes.com/data/images/full/5794/frank-zappa.jpg)

Right, Frank Zappa. Not that long ago I read ‘Zappa was […] the closest that rock music ever came to producing a bona-fide genius’. I think Keith Gordon was underestimating both rock music and Zappa.  While the concept of being a genius is a difficult one to actually put your finger on, I’m fully convinced that there are (or were) more Rock Geniuses out there. Zappa though wasn’t just a rock genius. Although I’m not one of his fans who’d worship his garbage just because he touched it, I do think there’s beauty in almost everything that he did. There’s an idea behind every word he said, every interview, every note. Now without further ado a very short summary of his life leading up to Album Number 1.

Frank Vincent Zappa was born on December 21st 1940 in Baltimore. His youth consisted mostly of blowing up stuff, moving to different cities and being sick. His father had to move for work related issues all the time, so Frank never really earthed anywhere. He wrote down his youth in his semi-autobiography The Real Frank Zappa book, and whether his music turns out to suit you or not, that book is hysterical to read.
His music career really started when he read an article on a local record store. The actual content of the article is debated on, but it was something along the lines of ‘this is a very good record store, the owner could even sell you something as atrocious as Edgar Varese’s Ionisation’. Further down it stated that that album was nothing else than drums, dissonant and terrible, the worst music in the world. Zappa was all ears, he had to find that album. Long story short, that was the nudge he needed. He liked the R&B of the fifties, but this was something else.
He started writing music, but without a single training.
Right from the beginning his interest was not only in music, but in other art as well. He painted, he even bought himself his own film-studio in his late teens/early 20’s, but music was the best. He met the other Mothers of Invention while filling in for a band called The Soul Giants. They wrote their first songs, and after years of hard work and playing together they finally (1966) convinced a record company buff that he should invest money in them to record their first record.


#1 - Freak Out! https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2015527#msg2015527 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2015527#msg2015527)
#2 - Absolutely Free https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2017694#msg2017694 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2017694#msg2017694)
#3 - Lumpy Gravy https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2019527#msg2019527 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2019527#msg2019527)
#4 - We're Only In It For The Money https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2022116#msg2022116 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2022116#msg2022116)
#5 - Cruising With Ruben & The Jets https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2025316#msg2025316 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2025316#msg2025316)
#6 - Uncle Meat https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2031386#msg2031386 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2031386#msg2031386)
#7 - Mothermania https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2033888#msg2033888 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2033888#msg2033888)
#8 - Hot Rats https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2038063#msg2038063 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2038063#msg2038063)
#9 - Burnt Weeny Sandwich https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2041473#msg2041473 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2041473#msg2041473)
#10 - Weasels Ripped My Flesh https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2046619#msg2046619 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2046619#msg2046619)
#11 - Chunga's Revenge https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2054444#msg2054444 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2054444#msg2054444)
#12 - Fillmore East, June 1971 https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2070465#msg2070465 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2070465#msg2070465)
#13 - 200 Motels https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2076197#msg2076197 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2076197#msg2076197)
#14 - Just Another Band From L.A. https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2082317#msg2082317 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2082317#msg2082317)
#15 - Waka/Jawaka https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2089462#msg2089462 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2089462#msg2089462)
#16 - The Grand Wazoo https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2093496#msg2093496 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2093496#msg2093496)
#17 - Over-Nite Sensation https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2105130#msg2105130 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2105130#msg2105130)
#18 - Apostrophe (') https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2113959#msg2113959 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2113959#msg2113959)
#19 - Roxy & Elsewhere https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2123974#msg2123974 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2123974#msg2123974)
#20 - One Size Fits All https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2138104#msg2138104 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2138104#msg2138104)
#21 - Bongo Fury https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2145821#msg2145821 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2145821#msg2145821)
#22 - Zoot Allures https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2153117#msg2153117 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2153117#msg2153117)
#23 - Zappa In New York https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2169917#msg2169917 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2169917#msg2169917)
#24 - Studio Tan https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2288199#msg2288199 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2288199#msg2288199)
#25 - Sleep Dirt https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2290687#msg2290687 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2290687#msg2290687)
#26 - Sheik Yerbouti https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2292905#msg2292905 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2292905#msg2292905)
#27 - Orchestral Favorites https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2295294#msg2295294 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2295294#msg2295294)
#28 & #29 - Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2298406#msg2298406 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2298406#msg2298406)
#30 - Tinseltown Rebellion https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2301454#msg2301454 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2301454#msg2301454)
#31, #32 & #33 - Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2304219#msg2304219 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2304219#msg2304219)
#34 - You Are What You Is https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2310211#msg2310211 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2310211#msg2310211)
#35 - Ship Arriving Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2312423#msg2312423 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2312423#msg2312423)
#36 - The Man From Utopia https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2315110#msg2315110 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2315110#msg2315110)
#37 - Baby Snakes https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2319860#msg2319860 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2319860#msg2319860)
#38 - London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1 https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2321907#msg2321907 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2321907#msg2321907)
#39 - Boulez Conducts Zappa: The Perfect Stranger https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2330978#msg2330978 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44650.msg2330978#msg2330978)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 26, 2015, 05:10:21 AM
Following with great interest, as I have always been interested in exploring Zappa, but was intimidated by the sheer size of his output.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: KevShmev on September 26, 2015, 06:24:01 AM
I own like 12-13 of his albums (meaning, I have the actual physical CDs!), and I'm still intimidated by the size of his catalogue. :lol

I'll probably only chime in on the albums I know, but will be reading and following with great interest. :coolio
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: ThatOneGuy2112 on September 26, 2015, 08:26:38 AM
Been anticipating this for quite some time. :lol

Following :tup
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Orbert on September 26, 2015, 10:03:46 AM
I'll be watching and reading.  Other than Nihil-Morari himself, I know I'm one of the bigger Zappa fans, having followed his work and that of The Mothers for around 40 years now, but the idea of doing the discography was just too daunting.  I'm glad someone else had the balls to do it.  I've got maybe 40 or 50 of his albums in one form or another, but got choosier during the 90's and also didn't have the disposable income I used to have (having kids will do that), so I'm looking forward to learning more about his later work, even though that will be years from now!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: jammindude on September 26, 2015, 10:44:14 AM
YAY!!! It's happening!!!!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Tomislav95 on September 26, 2015, 11:34:03 AM
I like his music but I don't know enough album to call myself fan :P
I will be checking this thread frequently. It would be cool if you, in your writeups, write how accessible is the album for new fan. Because some of the albums are just too weird and can turn off newbies like me :D
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: sneakyblueberry on September 26, 2015, 10:45:08 PM
Alright! followed
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Nihil-Morari on September 27, 2015, 12:45:56 AM
I like his music but I don't know enough album to call myself fan :P
I will be checking this thread frequently. It would be cool if you, in your writeups, write how accessible is the album for new fan. Because some of the albums are just too weird and can turn off newbies like me :D

Oh totally. I guess that I will give some background info, maybe a track-by-track review (or per vinyl side) and I will definitely write if it's just for completionists, or one of his best albums. Like I wrote, there are a couple of albums out there that only a handful people enjoy, and I'm not one of them  :lol

Thanks for the enthusiasm guys! We'll start with Freak Out! in a couple of days!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Onno on September 27, 2015, 03:03:53 AM
I'll probably need to follow this as well.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Nihil-Morari on September 27, 2015, 03:50:52 AM
I'll probably need to follow this as well.

Yes. Yes you do.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 27, 2015, 05:16:22 AM
Oh good, soon this will be the most-followed thread on DTF.  :tup
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Cyclopssss on September 27, 2015, 05:16:37 AM
Following!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Mosh on September 27, 2015, 10:45:50 AM
Totally following this.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Nihil-Morari on September 27, 2015, 03:09:02 PM
Oh good, soon this will be the most-followed thread on DTF.  :tup

Certainly looks like it! I can only say that I like it, makes me looking forward to this thread even more.  :)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Kwyjibo on September 28, 2015, 01:33:31 AM
Following with great interest, as I have always been interested in exploring Zappa, but was intimidated by the sheer size of his output.

... and some things I heard were just shit.

So following in hope to discover the gems.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: kaos2900 on September 28, 2015, 06:47:43 AM
This is going to be awesome! Thanks for doing this.

Good timing as I'll be seeing Zappa Plays Zappa on Wednesday!  :D
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Podaar on September 28, 2015, 08:21:03 AM
Yeah, It's hardly surprising that I'll be following this thread.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: darkshade on September 28, 2015, 08:26:47 AM
This is totally awesome.  :o :biggrin: :hefdaddy I could help out on this thread if you need me to.

If I may...  I suggest at least 2-3 albums per week, most of his albums were 25-40 minutes long until 1988. It's very easy to get through a bunch of albums in a few days.

There's also three ways to do this.

1. Start with Freak Out! and only listen to "cannon" albums, so only posthumous albums Frank intended to release (Lather, The Lost Episodes, Trance Fusion, CPIII, DMT, HIOS?)

2. Same as #1, but using certain posthumous albums to "fill in the holes" of Zappa's discography (could be very subjective), and include "other" albums, like Jean-Luc Ponty's "King Kong" album, or the Greggary Peccary album, for example.

3. Every single friggin album ever released with Frank's name on it, including Beat The Boots series, Cucamonga, and live performances with original material (Classical concerts from 1963 and 1984 for example) starting with the soundtrack to "Run Home Slow" and then the 1963 performance of really early Zappa music. We would also include remixes and alternate versions of albums (Hot Rats, Sleep Dirt, Lumpy Gravy, etc...)
There's also two ways to do this:
a.) Posthumous albums to be listened when it was recorded, (like option #2) using the most recent date of recording if it has multiple recording dates.
b.) Listen in the order in which the albums were released.

I have done a discography run-through once, and I did option #3, but it's easier when doing it alone, with a group, it might be too much, and I doubt everyone has every Zappa album like me (though there's a dozen or so I don't own physical copies of... yet) I have a few lists I could copy and paste with what the correct order of albums is depending on which option the majority prefers. I can't wait to do this, and this come at a perfect time for me, as the seasons change and my tastes are moving towards more prog, jazz, and avant-garde.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 28, 2015, 08:53:34 AM
On the other hand, of course, we could just let Nihil-Morari run it however he sees fit, since it's his enterprise. :)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: darkshade on September 28, 2015, 10:21:13 AM
On the other hand, of course, we could just let Nihil-Morari run it however he sees fit, since it's his enterprise. :)

Of course. I just thought I'd share the various ways this could be done, since Zappa released so much music, and basically every album has completely original music, even compilations and remixes. Seeing this thread just got me very excited. Everyone is free to completely ignore my previous post in this thread.  ;)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Mladen on September 28, 2015, 11:21:47 AM
Following with great interest, as I have always been interested in exploring Zappa, but was intimidated by the sheer size of his output.
I agree. I'm especially looking forward to the discussion about the album he released with Captain Beefheart, being that I'm a big Beefheart fan.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: hefdaddy42 on September 28, 2015, 11:33:09 AM
On the other hand, of course, we could just let Nihil-Morari run it however he sees fit, since it's his enterprise. :)

Of course. I just thought I'd share the various ways this could be done, since Zappa released so much music, and basically every album has completely original music, even compilations and remixes. Seeing this thread just got me very excited. Everyone is free to completely ignore my previous post in this thread.  ;)
Just messin' with ya.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: darkshade on September 28, 2015, 12:21:57 PM
On the other hand, of course, we could just let Nihil-Morari run it however he sees fit, since it's his enterprise. :)

Of course. I just thought I'd share the various ways this could be done, since Zappa released so much music, and basically every album has completely original music, even compilations and remixes. Seeing this thread just got me very excited. Everyone is free to completely ignore my previous post in this thread.  ;)
Just messin' with ya.

(https://i.imgur.com/heDqpym.gif)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Nihil-Morari on September 28, 2015, 02:39:15 PM
Haha, tips and tricks are always welcome. I just think that I'll start off one album at a time. Especially the first 15/20 are pretty mandatory to at least try. After that I could tie them together I think, we'll see. The posthumous albums are a different thing, most of em have a certain interest, but I think it says a lot about the amount of great Zappa music there is, that album no. 99 (Roxy By Proxy) is one of my favorite Zappa records out there. The 'other material' though... It's possible that I touch on that in my reviews, or within a discussion. It's possible that I name a couple of movies, but to include everything? If a 100 albums isn't already making me dizzy, including every single note he's released is making me nauseous  :lol

Expect the first album in this thread tomorrow, or the day after that!

Ready to Freak Out?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: sneakyblueberry on September 28, 2015, 04:07:41 PM
"freak me out frank, freak me out"
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: darkshade on September 28, 2015, 05:39:48 PM
Haha, tips and tricks are always welcome. I just think that I'll start off one album at a time. Especially the first 15/20 are pretty mandatory to at least try. After that I could tie them together I think, we'll see. The posthumous albums are a different thing, most of em have a certain interest, but I think it says a lot about the amount of great Zappa music there is, that album no. 99 (Roxy By Proxy) is one of my favorite Zappa records out there. The 'other material' though... It's possible that I touch on that in my reviews, or within a discussion. It's possible that I name a couple of movies, but to include everything? If a 100 albums isn't already making me dizzy, including every single note he's released is making me nauseous  :lol

Expect the first album in this thread tomorrow, or the day after that!

Ready to Freak Out?

I just want to help make sure all the necessary albums are covered, at the very least. An album like "King Kong" should be included, as it's a Zappa album credited to Jean-Luc Ponty, and was a big step in Frank's evolution into jazz-fusion. Frank had writing, composition, arrangement, performance, and conductor credits. JLP, George Duke, Art Tripp (all Zappa alumni) are on the album.

Only these posthumous albums should definitely be included:

Civilization Phaze III
Lather
The Lost Episodes
Everything Is Healing Nicely
FZPTMOFZ (makes for a nice final album)
Have I Offended Someone? (can be skipped)
Trance-Fusion
Road Tapes Vol. 2 ('73 lineup with Jean-Luc Ponty is misrepresented in Zappa's canon)
Dance Me This

All the albums I listed (except RT vol. 2 and FZPTMOFZ) were intended for release by Frank, as opposed to the rest of the posthumous albums which weren't.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Ultimetalhead on September 28, 2015, 05:56:39 PM
Following. Hopefully this will be the push I need to finally move past One Size Fits All in my exploration. :p
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Obfuscation on September 28, 2015, 06:49:23 PM
Have always heard of Zappa but never dedicated time to listen to him but will follow this and will listen.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Nihil-Morari on September 30, 2015, 11:27:23 AM
Official Release #1 'Freak Out!'
(Released 06/1966)

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/380/MI0003380208.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Background information:
The first thing you need to know about Freak Out! is that it wasn't at all Zappa's first work in the music industry. He had a studio in Cucamonga (check out the demo's of that if you're interested in surf music with a doo-wop twist), in which he made both movies and the scores to those movies (amongst other things, I'll have to be incomplete, otherwise all these 100 albums would deserve a complete book). It wouldn't be a Zappa project if there weren't any troubles, so in come the local PD, arrest Zappa for making 'pornografic music', and shut down the studio.
Zappa's first big encounter with the law aside, the entire project didn't really bring what Zappa hoped for.
We skip a bit, and let Ray Collins enter the story. In my opinion he and Don Van Vliet (Captain Beefheart) were two of the most important characters in Zappa's early musical life.
After Collins had a fight with the guitar player in his band (The Soul Giants) Zappa filled in. One thing led to another, they started to play Zappa's own music, and The Soul Giants became...

The Mothers
They got a steady gig at The Sunset Strip in LA, where they got a record deal at Verve Records. (note that they got the deal based on just one song: 'Trouble Every Day' which, well, isn't really your typical Zappa song, but more on that later) The record label got ahead right away (again, based on one song and a giant reputation locally) and offered them a budget for a double album. This would make it the first double debut album in history.



The album itself:
Side one
The album starts off in a special way. There are some that link the opening riff of 'Hungry Freaks, Daddy' to '(I can't get no) Satisfaction', but whether that was intentional or not, the fact of the matter is that it's a pretty rockin' riff. The following tracks make very clear that we're not listening to a normal record here, and that this record is not by a normal artist. Just as the studio engineer back then was shocked when he heard this music (he heard there was a white blues band coming, and the second track they recorded was 'Who Are The Brain Police', I would've loved to hear his phone call to the office asking what the hell he should do with this kind of music), I still listen to this record in awe. 'Go Cry', 'Motherly Love' and 'How Could I Be' are three tracks that express both Zappa's love for R&B and Doo- Wop, as well as his love for 'weird music'. Just listen to the kazoo-like breaks in Motherly Love. 'Who Are The Brain Police', however, is in a league of its own on the first side of the album. The lyrics are really strong, the middle bit and mostly the way it jumps back into the song are out of this world. Listening to this I always forget that this was the second song this group recorded. It's a song that showed the bands (and Zappa's) potential. In 'A Complete Guide To Frank Zappa' it says 'if this was Zappa's only release it would've been a big underground hit, and would maybe even still be, but no, way more happened'....

Side Two:
Whereas side one was a mixture of styles portraying everything the band could do, I've always felt that side two was 'just' an entertaining collection of songs. Lyrically there are some good moments (I've always loved 'you're probably wondering why I'm here and so am I'), but musically nothing really stands out. The only tiny thing to be noted is again the kazoo like melody right after the aforementioned lyrics, which is rhythmically quite challenging, and doubled by percussion, which will happen quite a lot more later in the discography.

Side Three:
Aah yes, here we go. Zappa's main political satire on this record is Trouble Every Day. One of the most important tracks, stylistically however, is Help I'm A Rock. So here it gets interesting. Zappa's big youth hero, I don't think he would ever use those words, but still, was Edgard Varese, a classical composer. Zappa getting into his music is one of the best anekdotes surrounding Zappa. When he was very young he read in a newspaper that a local record salesman was such a good talker that he even could make you buy Varese's Ionisation, a record just full of noise and other ugly sounds, in fact the ugliest music the reporter had ever heard. Zappa's first
reaction was 'I gotta find that record'. So he saved up, finally found the record, bought it, and was delighted by its harsh percussive type sound. It had a very big impact on him as a music lover, and later on as a composer. The first time in his music carreer that it gets apparent is during Help I'm A Rock. Trouble Every Day was the groups ticket to a record contract. It's about the Watts riots, and very much about racism.

Side Four:
Zappa's take on Revolution #9, as it's been called, however it's really closer to a Stockhausen piece than to The Beatles' sidelong piece of experimentation. It's his first major tape experiment, and we'll see a couple more of those in the future. There are a lot of things going on, including the Suzy Creamcheese introduction. If you see this weird piece of music more as a statement that as a song, you'll be more likely to enjoy it, although it's one of the most 'freak out' things Zappa has ever done (and yes, that's saying something)

All in all not the easiest Zappa record to get into, but one that got me from liking Zappa's music to admiring his work.


Essential Tracks: (for those of you that don't have all the time in the world)
Trouble Every Day
Who Are The Brain Police
Help I'm A Rock
Motherly Love
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: tofee35 on September 30, 2015, 11:43:34 AM
Count me in the 'being excited about this thread' group. As a huge huge fan of  just 4 of his albums (Joe's Garage, Apostrophe', Over-nite Sensation, and Strictly Commercial). I've had a hard time venturing out from those.

I can't wait to read FZ this from such an avid fan of all his life's work!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Podaar on September 30, 2015, 01:16:56 PM
I'm not fond of the R&B/Doo Wop songs on this album but most of everything else is brilliant!

To your list of essential songs, I'd add "Hungry Freaks, Daddy", and "The Return of the Son of Monster Magnet". The later mostly because of the rhythmic soundscapes. I get why it isn't some folks cuppa' but I find if you don't listen too closely to the individual sounds, instruments and vocals... just sorta zone out while listening... it becomes a kind of symphony of rhythm.

Honorable mention for "You're Probably Wondering Why I'm Here".
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Nihil-Morari on September 30, 2015, 01:20:24 PM
I'm not fond of the R&B/Doo Wop songs on this album but most of everything else is brilliant!

To your list of essential songs, I'd add "Hungry Freaks, Daddy", and "The Return of the Son of Monster Magnet". The later mostly because of the rhythmic soundscapes. I get why it isn't some folks cuppa' but I find if you don't listen too closely to the individual sounds, instruments and vocals... just sorta zone out while listening... it becomes a kind of symphony of rhythm.

Honorable mention for "You're Probably Wondering Why I'm Here".

Trust me I'd want to include almost all songs on the first couple of albums, but I thought I'd make it a short list. Actually I was thinking about whether I should include You're Probably Wondering... or Motherly Love.
Hungry Freaks is awesome, not in the last place because it's the first song on the first album. And Monster Magnet... well, like you say, people could get turned off by it. But I love the wackiness, I love the fact that you can hear all the Freaks of the Scene at that time have a good time in the middle of the night with a room full of rented percussion.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Orbert on September 30, 2015, 01:54:42 PM
My wife does not like Frank Zappa's music.  I understand; he's certainly not for everyone.  She's seen interviews and thinks he's a cool guy, and very brave and borderline insane to do the things he did, so there's admiration, just not preference.  She's also not a big fan of prog or other forms of music that are too "out there" or have blatantly sexual content, as some of Frank's stuff did.

Imagine her surprise when I told her that I'd played some Zappa for our kids.  And yes, "surprise" is a very mild word for it.  She freaked out, which is oddly appropriate.

The songs I played were "Help, I'm a Rock", "I'm So Cute", and a few others I thought they'd find funny.  This was when they were younger and I was still deliberately exposing them to all kinds of music.  They needed to know that there's more out there than what they hear on the radio and/or the dreck their friends like.  They thought it was awesome.

Help, I'm a Rock?
Yes, it's a song about being a rock.  It's kinda monotonous and boring because being a rock must be pretty boring.
Yeah, I guess so.  Wait, are they saying Help, I'm a cop now?
Yes, because nobody like cops.
I do, cops are good.  They catch bad guys.
True, but bad guys don't like them.
Oh.  Yeah.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Nihil-Morari on September 30, 2015, 02:02:25 PM
 :lol

I love how kids could dance to Zappa's early stuff, I've got young kids in my family that really seem to enjoy the old doo-wop stuff.

My girlfriend too, btw. She really doesn't like any Prog or 'complicated' music, but we could dance to Ruben and the Jets all day long.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Podaar on September 30, 2015, 02:05:13 PM
Supposedly, "Wowie Zowie" is popular with the toddler-set but I've never tried to find out.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Podaar on September 30, 2015, 02:11:24 PM
I'm wondering about this bit.
Zappa's take on Revolution #9, as it's been called, however it's really closer to a Stockhausen piece than to The Beatles' sidelong piece of experimentation.

Unless I'm missing something, Revolution #9 came out a few years after this record.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - You Can't Do That On DTF Anymore
Post by: Nihil-Morari on September 30, 2015, 02:18:34 PM
I'm wondering about this bit.
Zappa's take on Revolution #9, as it's been called, however it's really closer to a Stockhausen piece than to The Beatles' sidelong piece of experimentation.

Unless I'm missing something, Revolution #9 came out a few years after this record.

Yeah you're right. 'Take on' is incorrect. They've been compared, but Zappa was earlier.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Podaar on September 30, 2015, 02:34:13 PM
Okay, cool. I was just wondering if I'd missed out on some cool nugget. It wouldn't be the first time.  :)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Orbert on September 30, 2015, 02:34:53 PM
I've read the comparison as well.

Basically, they're both pieces that nobody I know understands or likes, including myself, and just sound like noise.  Art of course is always subjective, but I've always suspected that in both cases, they were putting one over on us, the idea being that we just don't "get it" -- maybe we're just not sophisticated enough, or high enough -- but meanwhile the artists themselves were secretly laughing their asses off because they know damned well that it's garbage, but they enjoy watching people have fits arguing about it and trying to find meaning in it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Podaar on September 30, 2015, 02:39:12 PM
 :lol

With Frank, you never know.

Actually, I've often thought exactly same thing about a great deal of "modern art". Much of Picasso's late period seems like a piss-take to me.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Nihil-Morari on September 30, 2015, 02:42:40 PM
I've read the comparison as well.

Basically, they're both pieces that nobody I know understands or likes, including myself, and just sound like noise.  Art of course is always subjective, but I've always suspected that in both cases, they were putting one over on us, the idea being that we just don't "get it" -- maybe we're just not sophisticated enough, or high enough -- but meanwhile the artists themselves were secretly laughing their asses off because they know damned well that it's garbage, but they enjoy watching people have fits arguing about it and trying to find meaning in it.

Well, I have to disagree with you on that one. Coming from someone who likes pieces of Edgard Varese (see here the famous piece Ionization https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9mg4KHqRPw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9mg4KHqRPw) ) you could imagine that Zappa wasn't laughing his ass off. I believe it's an actual attempt to make something like that. Listen for instance to Karlheinz Stockhausen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmGIiBfWI0E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmGIiBfWI0E) For some it would take quite some imagination to see why this would be called 'art' or 'music', but this was the (type of) music Zappa was obsessed by when he was young.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: darkshade on September 30, 2015, 04:34:45 PM
Alright, here we go!  :tup

Like most debut albums, knowing the back story usually helps put the album in context. With Freak Out! there are also tons of recordings before the first Mothers album, most of which is available on posthumous official releases.

I started off listening to one of Frank's earliest recordings - "The World's Greatest Sinner". This can be found on Beat The Boots vol. 3 (disc 3) It's not the earliest of recordings, those can be found on The Lost Episodes and The Mystery Disc, which I assume will be covered later. This was recorded in 1961. Eleven minutes of symphonic classical music mixed with a dash of rhythm and blues, and some spoken word by a guy who sounds like your average 1950s announcer. The symphonic part is interesting, as Frank usually made avant-garde 20th Century classical in the vein of Varese and Stravinsky. There are some themes and melodies that would later appear on Frank's albums. Conceptual continuity started very early.

Next up, I listened to Cucamonga released in 1998. This is a collection of songs recorded during Frank's Studio Z days (1961-1965). Not a real Zappa album, but it contains sounds that would appear on early Mothers albums and beyond. One of the songs is called World's Greatest Sinner but has nothing to do with the symphonic piece from earlier. I think Frank played a couple of guitar solos on some songs, but it's mostly different bands that utilized the studio for recording and releasing singles. Mostly doo-wop, rhythm n blues, 50s type ballads (Earth Angel, Earrrrth AAAANGELLL!!!), and some comedy rock (think "Rock Lobster"). Again, this is for context, and really makes you appreciate Frank's early work, and his blues work which is all over his discography. Seriously, listen to this and then listen to Lumpy Gravy, you would see what I mean. I have a mild appreciation for Frank's doo-wop side as I grew up on 50s and 60s 'oldies' music since my dad listened to a lot of that stuff. This album gives you a sense of the sounds Frank was tinkering with in the early 1960s.
More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pal_Recording_Studio (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pal_Recording_Studio)

Next up is the album Joe's XMAS-age (released in 2004) which is a collection of early Frank songs recorded in 1963 and a couple of field recordings and dialogue from the Studio Z days.

Before he even made his debut, Frank Zappa was already on late-night television shows, giving some... odd performances. Very funny stuff. Frank went on The Steve Allen Show in 1963 and performed music using only a bicycle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MewcnFl_6Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MewcnFl_6Y)

Also, in 1963, Frank conducted a classical performance of his own music, which can be found at https://www.zappateers.com/fzshows/orchestral.html (https://www.zappateers.com/fzshows/orchestral.html) the FM broadcast (very good sound) can be downloaded if you sign up at Zappateers. It contains mostly 20th Century classical as only Frank could create, with a light dose of jazzy rhythms. Frank was already a master composer and musician in 1963!

There are also recordings of Frank and The Mothers before they recorded their debut. The album Joe's Corsage (released in 2005) is basically a demo for Freak Out! but also contains some songs that didn't make it or was reworked for later albums.

Now on to Freak Out!
This is an album I didn't appreciate when I was new to Frank Zappa. I was attracted to the 72-79 era the most. However, I recall more than one time when I was younger and me and my friends were enjoying some 'chemical amusement aid' and we were blasting Help I'm A Rock and It Can't Happen Here and literally FREAKED OUT! It wasn't until later when I was exploring Frank's music more that I was able to give the album a real chance. Still not my favorite album, but it has grown on me a lot over the years. The key is to remember when this album was recorded (1965). Popular music at that point was very safe, coordinated, packed and shipped. There was no Beatles experimentation yet, the hippie movement, the progressive rock phenomena, the psychedelic movement was just getting under way barely. Along comes this album, and at first, you think it's a "nice album" until it gradually gets weirder and weirder until the last track you start losing your mind. Knowing what came later, this album can seem a little pedestrian for Frank, but at the time, it was revolutionary, and an influence on Paul McCartney to make Sgt. Peppers (which was then later mocked by Frank two albums later). Yup, without Frank Zappa, The Beatles would probably not have been as progressive and revolutionary as they were. Frank rarely gets the credit for basically being the first prog rock musician.

My favorite tracks:

Hungry Freaks, Daddy
How Could I Be Such A Fool
Trouble Every Day
Help I'm A Rock
It Can't Happen Here
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Mosh on September 30, 2015, 09:33:09 PM
I've read the comparison as well.

Basically, they're both pieces that nobody I know understands or likes, including myself, and just sound like noise.  Art of course is always subjective, but I've always suspected that in both cases, they were putting one over on us, the idea being that we just don't "get it" -- maybe we're just not sophisticated enough, or high enough -- but meanwhile the artists themselves were secretly laughing their asses off because they know damned well that it's garbage, but they enjoy watching people have fits arguing about it and trying to find meaning in it.

Well, I have to disagree with you on that one. Coming from someone who likes pieces of Edgard Varese (see here the famous piece Ionization https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9mg4KHqRPw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9mg4KHqRPw) ) you could imagine that Zappa wasn't laughing his ass off. I believe it's an actual attempt to make something like that. Listen for instance to Karlheinz Stockhausen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmGIiBfWI0E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmGIiBfWI0E) For some it would take quite some imagination to see why this would be called 'art' or 'music', but this was the (type of) music Zappa was obsessed by when he was young.
It's worth pointing out that Monster Magnet as we know it is unfinished. He ran out of time and/or budget and wasn't able to record much more than a "basic" track. It's hard to judge Monster Magnet because what we've got on tape is an apparently very stripped down version. It's sorta like trying to listen to any other song on the album with just bass and drums, except much more difficult given how outside it is. Perhaps because of that, I don't really enjoy or understand Monster Magnet. I think it falls flat, especially compared to other weirder pieces Zappa has done, even on that album alone. Chrome Plated Megaphone is a far superior "noise" piece IMO.

That aside, I really like Freak Out. It shows that Zappa was very well versed in this genre. In some ways it seems like he's making fun of it, especially with the lyrical content, but in a lot of ways it seems like genuine homage. The tight arrangements and harmonies suggest that this was a genre Frank was really fond of and saw a far greater potential than what we knew. I think you can forget the context on a lot of songs and just enjoy them at face value. I'm thinking How Could I Be Such a Fool and Go Cry On Somebody Else's Shoulder in particular.

And personally I think that's the best satire/parody. Anybody can mock a genre's tropes without fully understanding it, but to really get inside of it and make something that could easily be authentic is way more satisfying I think. Especially in the case of Freak out! where it's mixed in with all that weirdness.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 01, 2015, 01:26:39 AM
And so it begins!

Now, as a Zappa fan, I was late into the 'classic Mothers era' material. For a long period, all of my experience with the first Mothers of Invention line-up came with the appearance of 'YCDTOSA 5' in which a whole cd was dedicated to the early mothers. I thought it was interesting, but most of it was a lot of hippy dippy tongue in cheek ha ha stuff.

When I did start to listen tot he original Mothers though, I noticed a couple of things. First off, although technically not the most advanced players, they played, for a lot of the time, increddibly dense, complicated arrangements. Zappa loved to incorporate (!) a lot of Classical music themes into some of the songarrangements. Sometimes two or three different themes at a time. With the technical limits of the equipment at the time, that is nothing short of amazing.

In view of the time it was recorded, still coming out of the bland fifties, this album can't be viewed, in my humble opinion as anything but Revolutionary.

I for one, LOVED the Doo wop harmony songs. Ray Collins was not the best singer he ever had, but he gave those songs exactly the feeling they needed.

Furthermore, the lyrics were way ahead of their time. Hungry freaks, daddy, You probably wonder why I' m here, I'm not sattisfied and  Wowie zowie, all are pretty spot on and to the point  observations of life for young upgrowing people that were increasingly discontent with where their lives were going and how it was, in large part, being decided for them how they should live their lives. Who are the brain police? is taking this to new hights. The question asked fits right in with the political, social unrest people were feeling in those days. Censurship run rampant at the time. You can't dress like that, you can't wear you hair long, you shouldn't talk back (to grownups, authoritive figures). It's genius, a masterstroke of a song. Help, I'm a rock off course, is also brilliant and  constantly requested live.
Trouble Everyday though, is a different story. On this song, Frank sounds downright ANGRY, something that he wouldn't allow himself too often on later recordings.
He rarely sounded as sharp and scathing and political, as on this jewel of a song. He later toned it down a bit with updated arrangements, but he really meant what he said here.
I ain't got no heart, How could I be such a fool, Go cry on someone else's shoulder, You didn't try to call me, Motherly love, Anyway the wind blows, all terrific excersises in doowoop shtick, excersised brilliantly.

For a first album of an artist (and what an undertaking it was) one can not help but observe how MATURE it sounds (untill you come to the fourth side, off course, which has been discussed before already).

That is where Frank takes an already brilliant satyrical album and takes it to another extreme level. Give the material of the musicians and equipment he had to work with at the time, it's nothing but an Astonishing acomplishment. Frank though, was only getting started!

Frank played a large portion of Freak Out as a surprise encore with the 1974 band, somewhat lousy recorde on the 'Unmittigated Audacity' bootleg and the audience went absolutely bazerk when they realised what was going on. Napoleon Murphy Brock singing his ass off on 'How could I be such a fool', I still wish there was a good recording of that gig released cometime. One can dream.... 


Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 01, 2015, 01:59:19 AM
Listening to Unmitigated Audacity right now, that's been a while! The songs sound great, a lot more energy. And although it is a bad recording, it's very interesting to listen to the modern sounding old songs. For the fans of this first record, it's definitely worth checking out! (Although these bootlegs may be difficult to find)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 01, 2015, 03:08:05 AM
Also, for a refference as to how good the 'Old Mothers' could be in a live enviroment, check out the second half of 'Ahead of their time' recorded at the Royal Albert Hall. ('68?) The first half is a 'play' which has some great moments, but the second half is fantastic listening. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: sneakyblueberry on October 01, 2015, 03:41:49 PM
Nice write up.  Was never much into this album, or much of earlier zappa tbh.  Looking forward to certain eras in particular, but its nice to read up (or re-read) some of the backstory around the albums.  Good times.

Nihil - I can't tell if they're typos in your text or if it's your native language coming through in your writing, but its pretty awesome :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Fluffy Lothario on October 01, 2015, 05:11:19 PM
I tried Hot Rats and a few of his other jazz-rock albums some years ago, or whatever you want to label them, and nothing really did much for me.

Listened to Freak Out last night.

Sides 1&2 were a bit ho-hum - some songs dull, some ok, some had enough ideas on top of the “parodying modern pop music” to stand up pretty well.

Sides 3&4 were great. Trouble Every Day sounds vaguely reminiscent of Dylan, and there are moments on the other tracks that mean they would number amongst a small group of songs I’ve heard from the late 60s and early 70s with ideas that predate electronic music (electronic music in the modern sense, not in the Stockhausen sense - drum and bass-ey stuff). The fact that he put those songs on an album in 1966 is just hilarious.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: bout to crash on October 01, 2015, 05:55:07 PM
Nice write-up indeed! I dig Freak Out! and think it's a lot of fun but wouldn't call it a favorite.

Have y'all watched The World's Greatest Sinner, btw? What a ridiculous movie.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: sneakyblueberry on October 01, 2015, 06:07:29 PM
reminiscent of Dylan

FLAKES FLAKES
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Orbert on October 01, 2015, 08:39:23 PM
Take it away, Bob!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 01, 2015, 10:48:21 PM
Nice write up.  Was never much into this album, or much of earlier zappa tbh.  Looking forward to certain eras in particular, but its nice to read up (or re-read) some of the backstory around the albums.  Good times.

Nihil - I can't tell if they're typos in your text or if it's your native language coming through in your writing, but its pretty awesome :lol

 :lol I guess it's the latter. I can manage myself in English ok, but I guess you can always tell the difference :)

Nice write-up indeed! I dig Freak Out! and think it's a lot of fun but wouldn't call it a favorite.

Have y'all watched The World's Greatest Sinner, btw? What a ridiculous movie.

I've looked it up once, but couldn't stand the quality. It's not that great  ;)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 02, 2015, 02:13:14 AM
How about ´Run home slow´ wherein apparantly, the hero pooches a cowchick in a barn with a dead donky in the corner?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 02, 2015, 04:36:47 AM
My first listen to this album in probably 20 years.

Charming, funny, weird, and fun.

Loved the do-wop stuff.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: jammindude on October 02, 2015, 11:41:45 PM
After getting a taste of Zappa with Strictly Commercial and Joe's Garage, I decided I wanted to try to start from the beginning and slowly work my way forward.

I really like Freak Out!   The first half (what would have been the first record) is more enjoyable than the second...but the crown jewel is the first track of the second half.  Trouble Every Day.   I could put this song on an endless loop and not get tired of it.   It is amazing to me how relevant this song is 50 years after it was penned.   Just this last August (a mere two months ago) was the 50 year anniversary of the Watts riots that inspired Frank to write this song as the events unfolded.   It is perhaps even more relevant today than when it was written.     Pure...freakin....genius.

Hungry Freaks Daddy and Who Are the Brain Police are other favorites of mine.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 03, 2015, 05:23:11 AM
After getting a taste of Zappa with Strictly Commercial and Joe's Garage, I decided I wanted to try to start from the beginning and slowly work my way forward.

I really like Freak Out!   The first half (what would have been the first record) is more enjoyable than the second...but the crown jewel is the first track of the second half.  Trouble Every Day.   I could put this song on an endless loop and not get tired of it.   It is amazing to me how relevant this song is 50 years after it was penned.   Just this last August (a mere two months ago) was the 50 year anniversary of the Watts riots that inspired Frank to write this song as the events unfolded.   It is perhaps even more relevant today than when it was written.     Pure...freakin....genius.

Hungry Freaks Daddy and Who Are the Brain Police are other favorites of mine.

I remember seeing discussion on the genius of Roger Waters on here. That both The Wall and Amused to Death are just as relevant today as they were when they came out. We're talking about 1978 and 1992 there. The fact that a track from the mid 60's can be relevant in 2015 is nothing short of mind-blowing. Apart from that it's also a grim statement considering 'we' haven't been able to deal with it in 50 years.

Seeing the discussion on Freak Out! I like how people are either really enjoying the Doo-Wop songs, or don't really care for them. I guess we'll have two camps throughout this entire thread. I'm preparing Absolutely Free, I think I won't wait an entire week for each album. You'll see.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Orbert on October 03, 2015, 10:55:22 AM
When I bought my first Zappa album, Sheik Yerbouti, and put it on, I was quite stunned by the opening track, which is a Doo-Wop song.  I had no idea that there was that side of his music.  Of course, since it was my first Zappa (I'd heard One Size Fits All years before, but my main takeaway there was the R&B, plus the general insanity and irreverence of things), there were many sides to his music that I'd yet to explore, but the Doo-Wop has always thrown me.  I guess I'm one of those who appreciates it, but doesn't really like it.  The vocal harmonies are great, and that to me is the big draw, but overall it's a style that just doesn't grab me.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: KevShmev on October 03, 2015, 12:45:18 PM
The only two songs from this record that have stuck with me at all are Help I'm A Rock and Trouble Every Day, both of which I like a lot.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: darkshade on October 03, 2015, 12:48:50 PM
"That's why I got my khakis pressed."  :lol

Can't believe no one is talking about How Could I Be Such A Fool? That song predates what The Beatles did in the same vein.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Mosh on October 04, 2015, 01:06:34 AM
That's one of my favorites. Love Ray Collins' vocals on that.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: jammindude on October 04, 2015, 01:50:32 PM
Just a thought....

Did it occur to anyone that Trouble Every Day could technically be considered the very first rap song?

The riff reminds me of a sample...lyrics spoken in rap style, rhyme, and meter. Subject is about racial and police injustice... All the ingredients certainly seem to be there.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Mosh on October 04, 2015, 02:07:15 PM
I've definitely seen that discussed before. I can definitely see it as a proto-rap tune. The delivery, the lyrical content, the way the music seems to loop a single "beat" that stays simple enough to not overshadow the lyrics.

It seems like Trouble Every Day is the most popular song around here, but I guess you can file me in the doo-wop camp. My favorite songs are It Can't Happen Here, Anyway The Wind Blows, and How Could I Be Such a Fool.

Also, aside from Monster Magnet, I really love the weirder stuff on there. Who Are the Brain Police is awesome. And the screaming at the end of I Ain't Got No Heart is hilarious.  :metal
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 04, 2015, 02:15:18 PM
Just a thought....

Did it occur to anyone that Trouble Every Day could technically be considered the very first rap song?

The riff reminds me of a sample...lyrics spoken in rap style, rhyme, and meter. Subject is about racial and police injustice... All the ingredients certainly seem to be there.

It does tick all the boxes, you're right. To be considered 'rap' it had to have happened later though. But proto-rap. Avant-rap. I like that thought. There aren't a lot of Zappa songs that could be considered even Rap, even though he mostly used spoken word vocals. Promiscuous is an exception. But that was in the late 80s.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Fluffy Lothario on October 04, 2015, 03:38:49 PM
Just a thought....

Did it occur to anyone that Trouble Every Day could technically be considered the very first rap song?

The riff reminds me of a sample...lyrics spoken in rap style, rhyme, and meter. Subject is about racial and police injustice... All the ingredients certainly seem to be there.
I didn’t say it reminded me of Dylan for nothing. This song here came out the year before, and I’ve seen it referenced tons of times as “the first rap song”.

https://vimeo.com/72540087
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Ultimetalhead on October 04, 2015, 06:42:50 PM
I really loved this album when I first heard it. It was...the third Zappa album I checked out (Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch and Apostrophe came first I think). I found myself quite enjoying the doo-wop and general catchy nature of it all. By the time Trouble Every Day hit, I was completely sold. And then the rest of the album happened. Holy fuck. There's just no way 1966 was ready for that shit.

Looking back at it now, the songs are still nice. I really don't "get" Monster Magnet at all, but I'd say that's more a result of my not enjoying the "noise collage" style of 20th Century Classical that Varese and his contemporaries popularized. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 05, 2015, 02:01:29 AM
Just a thought....

Did it occur to anyone that Trouble Every Day could technically be considered the very first rap song?

The riff reminds me of a sample...lyrics spoken in rap style, rhyme, and meter. Subject is about racial and police injustice... All the ingredients certainly seem to be there.
I didn’t say it reminded me of Dylan for nothing. This song here came out the year before, and I’ve seen it referenced tons of times as “the first rap song”.

https://vimeo.com/72540087

Yeah, I get that too. Cool tune.

Next album is coming tomorrow I think!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 05, 2015, 02:48:59 AM
'you know what peope? I may not be white, but I'm sure glad I ain't black...' (from Trouble coming everyday).

On the doowoop side: there's a fantastic section/medley (edited together from different shows, as he often did) of doowoop songs on You can''t do that on stage anymore part 4. The vocal harmonies of Ray White and Ike Willis are nothing short of fantastic there. All through his entire carreer Frank has professed his love for the genre, ever since he sat on Don van Vliet's (Captain Beefheart) porch listening to those records and drinking Pepsi's.

Also, 'Suzi? Suzi Creamcheese?'
'Yes?'
"Suzi Creemcheese, what got into you?'

 :P
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: jammindude on October 05, 2015, 06:37:41 AM
'you know what peope? I may not be white, but I'm sure glad I ain't black...' "Hey you know something people? I'm not black, but there's a whole lots of times I wish I could say I'm not white!" (from Trouble coming everyday).

On the doowoop side: there's a fantastic section/medley (edited together from different shows, as he often did) of doowoop songs on You can''t do that on stage anymore part 4. The vocal harmonies of Ray White and Ike Willis are nothing short of fantastic there. All through his entire carreer Frank has professed his love for the genre, ever since he sat on Don van Vliet's (Captain Beefheart) porch listening to those records and drinking Pepsi's.

Also, 'Suzi? Suzi Creamcheese?'
'Yes?'
"Suzi Creemcheese, what got into you?'

 :P

FTFY  :angel:
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 05, 2015, 06:44:38 AM
Good catch, memory does fade with age.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Onno on October 05, 2015, 11:22:49 AM
Just had my first listen to this album. I only really like about half of the album. Musically, the overall style isn't my favourite, and some of the songs had lyrics that I didn't like at all (I Ain't Got No Heart, Go Cry On Somebody Else's Shoulder, Motherly Love, How Could I Be Such A Fool, etc....). I did like everything after I'm Not Satisfied, including Monster Magnet, which I thought was very original.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: jammindude on October 05, 2015, 06:46:28 PM
"You cheated me baaaabayyy....and told.....somedirtyliesaboutme.... (dada da dooo)"

I like the lyrics to Go Cry On Someone Else's Shoulder because it seems almost like a parody.   I always thought it was a bit weird that Frank claimed to love Doo-Wop so much.  I haven't heard all his stuff, but none of his Doo-Wop material sounds like straight Doo-Wop to me.  It's always like he's making fun of it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Orbert on October 05, 2015, 08:59:08 PM
It seems like it's a bit of both.  To me, it's obvious that he loves the genre.  But he seems well aware that it has an inherent cheesiness to it, and he exploits that to make fun of the genre even as he's honoring it, because he's not going to come right out and be serious about anything.  Still, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.  He couldn't lampoon it so well if he didn't love and understand it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Mosh on October 05, 2015, 09:13:08 PM
He's likened it to Stravinsky's neoclassical period. His argument is that Stravinsky intended it as parody, exaggerating the tropes of the genre. Someone who doesn't know any better could listen to it and not realize it isn't supposed to be taken seriously.

The closest Zappa gets to this I think is Ruben and the Jets. It has some reworkings of Freak Out songs, but they're a bit less weird on there. He's still making fun of the genre but it's played slightly more "straight" imo.

I think one thing to keep in mind with Zappa, is he made fun of everything. Even things he liked. A good example is the Stairway To Heaven cover, with that ridiculous reggae beat under it. The story behind that cover is that he heard the band jamming Stairway and thought it sounded nice (he had never heard Stairway before), so they ended up covering it. He even made fun of Stravinsky's music, one of his heroes.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Orbert on October 05, 2015, 11:17:52 PM
Oh yeah.  His cover of "Stairway" by the '88 band is amazing.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Mosh on October 05, 2015, 11:34:05 PM
I honestly like it more than the original. Nothing against Zeppelin, love them too. I always lose it when the horn section plays the guitar solo.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 06, 2015, 12:28:30 AM
All of those old doowop songs he did were more or less, parodies. Especially the cheesy lyrics. Ever heard 'Valory' ? But musically it was done with a love for the genre.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Orbert on October 06, 2015, 07:03:44 AM
I honestly like it more than the original. Nothing against Zeppelin, love them too. I always lose it when the horn section plays the guitar solo.

That's the best part.  I love the horns there!  ♫♫
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 06, 2015, 01:15:22 PM
Official Release #2 'Absolutely Free'
(Released 04/1967)

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/380/MI0003380206.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Background information:
The difficult follow up. If 'Freak Out!' would've been Zappa's only release, he would've become a massive underground cult hit, as Ben Watson stated. I totally buy that.
For the second album, Zappa wrote a bunch of tracks, musically somewhat more difficult, mostly in terms of instrumentation. He finds a couple new mothers, mostly woodwind players, and they get to record their follow-up on a way too tight schedule, with a way too tight budget.
Zappa states that he couldn't get anything done the way he would've liked it, just because they didn't have the time.
The album itself is built like a two part suite, one side long each. A major difference with Freak Out is the fact that tap- along-songs and high-brow music are more woven into each other, a way of writing that I've always really admired. No more dividing fans in 'I like these songs, and dislike the others', with this album you're going to like all of it. Or not, 'cause it's a bit tricky to get into.
Another major breakthrough with this album is the enormous quantity of humor on it. Not only parodies of musical styles, but literally more jokes. Comedy rock was born.

The album itself:
Side One:

Officially called "Absolutely Free, 1 in a series of underground oratorios”.
Firstly the word Oratorios (the second half of the LP is called Oratories, but I'm guessing that's a typo on my pirated LP reissue). In classical music you speak of an Oratorio when there's secular lyrics in a big vocal-oriented piece. Apart from the secular lyrics, this is a pretty vocal oriented record. It really feels like a musical, in the most positive sense of that word. 
Plastic People is a track that would become a Zappa classic. During his later tours this track would be the representative for the Old Days, albeit in a totally reworked version. Mainly a satire on the fake people of America in those days, when most of the time the actual fake ones would be the ones connecting the most with this song. Later in Zappa's career a comparable movement would occur when the ‘dumb American teenagers’ would be the ones laughing the hardest at the lyrics of Titties and Beer. Remarkable in the opening piece are the words 'I'm sure that love will never be a product of plasticity', a statement that’s too corny to be Zappa.
The Duke of Prunes is a special something too. According to the liner notes of the Mystery Disc, there was on old version in Run Home Slow, one of the movies where Zappa did the score for, back in the Studio Z, Cucamonga days. Add in the multiple Stravinsky references in Amnesia Vivace, the second part of the song, and the considerable lenght of the entire piece, The Duke of Prunes is one of the highlights of the album.
Call Any Vegetable (together with the next two tracks, which are really a solo section, and a closing section) is a great piece of weird lyrics too. Loaded with musical references to Zappa's classical heroes, and a rare guitar solo (rare on this album at least), this song is a great closer to the first side of the album.
The CD version has two tracks shoved in between side one and side two, Big Leg Emma, and Why Don'tcha Do Me Right, both harking back to the old days with the first being a classic R&B track, and the second a straight-on rocker. Two funny little tracks, but a bit out of place on this record.

Side Two: 
"The M.O.I. American Pageant, 2 in a series of underground oratories"
The centerpiece on side two is Brown Shoes Don’t Make It. A strange piece, which is basically a musical of its own in seven-and-a-half minutes. This really set Zappa’s name as someone who wrote extreme lyrics. ‘Only thirteen and she knows how to nasty’ and we’re talking 1967 right here!
The songs on this record all segue, making this really one long piece. There are ups and downs, but mostly I think this is a very interesting piece, it really sounds like Zappa, but it doesn’t sound at all like Freak Out! You get both more extreme music (not counting Monster Magnet) and more funny, light stuff. And album of extremes all woven into each other.


Essential Tracks: (for those of you that don't have all the time in the world)
The Dukes of Prunes (track 2, 3 and 4)
Call Any Vegetable (track 5, 6 and 7)
Brown Shoes Don't Make It
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Podaar on October 06, 2015, 01:53:52 PM
I completely agree with your "Essential Tracks". Especially, "Invocation and Ritual Dance of the Young Pumpkin." Honorable mention for "Big Leg Emma" but that's mostly from my nostalgia for Zappa in New York.

I enjoy this album more than Freak Out!. I think it nicely forecasts the 70's output.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Orbert on October 06, 2015, 02:30:08 PM
I like this one more than the debut as well.  Even if the results were not what Frank had intended, what we got was most of the same insanity as the first album, but distilled and more focused into something a bit more accessible, yet still way the hell out there.

"Invocation and Ritual Dance of the Young Pumpkin" is amazing.  One of my favorite instrumentals by anyone, anywhere.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: TAC on October 06, 2015, 03:14:06 PM
Nihil, any chance you could post the year of release for each album?
I'm going to try and check in on this every few days. I'm not a Zappa fan at all, but am mildly interested in the historical element of it, and will check out a song here and there upon recommendation.

I know he was very influential in getting Alice Cooper's first two albums off the ground. I am a huge Alice fan.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Podaar on October 06, 2015, 04:46:02 PM
TAC,

This page may help as we go along. Frank Zappa discography (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Zappa_discography)

I case you don't want to (or can't) follow the link. Freak Out! - 1966, Absolutely Free - 1967.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: TAC on October 06, 2015, 04:49:18 PM
Link works fine. Thanks Greg!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Mosh on October 06, 2015, 06:43:49 PM
The first time I heard Absolutely Free, I didn't like it. The production was considerably worse than Freak Out, the music was dense and often dissonant, and nothing about it was particularly accessible. Where Freak Out lured you into the weird by having catchy pop songs to hook you, Absolutely Free isn't quite as newbie friendly.

It grew on me though and I think it has more to offer than Freak Out. I love how each side is its own mini suite and the CD version does a great job dividing these by having the two singles in the middle. Brown Shoes is really the centerpiece of the album I think. I love the way it starts with this basic blues riff before descending into madness. Very vaudevillian stuff. Very much a prototype for the Flo and Eddie era too. The whole pseudo musical thing with the music and lyrics working together to tell a story. The Flo and Eddie period took this style to new heights and those albums are great, but I gotta say nothing they did was ever as effective as Brown Shoes, for me at least.


Does anyone here have a preference for either side over the other? I personally think Side 2 is slightly better. It's funnier, has better songs, and Brown Shoes Don't Make It. I also love America Drinks and Goes Home. Covered that a couple times in high school with a jazz band.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: darkshade on October 06, 2015, 08:26:11 PM
This is a much better album than Freak Out! to me, yet just as wild. However, this is the first album where we hear the more technical side of Zappa's music, more constructed sections, and he did the best he could with the Mothers during this time. Their musical chops were solid but no where technically proficient like Zappa's later bands. Adding horns definitely helped add more color to the music. But the music is definitely more progressive and challenging, but is covered in humor, ridiculous vocals that walk the line between bombastic, medieval sounding, and just plain weird.

This album, IMO, also contains one of the very first fusions of jazz and rock, or as we call it: jazz-rock/fusion. "Ritual Dance..." is a groovy rock track with some jazz soloing from the horns, and Zappa on guitar, bring more bluesy R&B styling. It all works as part of the suite. I recommend the entire album, and not select tracks, as like the great concept albums and suites in progressive rock, this is meant to be listened to as one piece, divided into parts (like SFAM). On the CD, they added 2 B-sides from the same era, which are also great classic 60s Zappa rock n roll.

Cabbage is a vegetable.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: jammindude on October 06, 2015, 11:11:29 PM
Love this album!!  Curious if About to Crash ever got the tattoo she was joking about...


(a tramp stamp of the Zappa mustache....but she didn't know what phrase to put with it.   *I* (in a state of distastful humor) suggested: "Why if she were my daughter I'd..."  on the left side and then "What would you do daddy?" on the right.....was that too far?   More importantly, did she ever get the tattoo??)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: darkshade on October 06, 2015, 11:36:43 PM
Sometimes if I stare at the album art, I feel like I'm staring at Mikael Akerfeldt.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 07, 2015, 08:17:39 AM
Love this album!!  Curious if About to Crash ever got the tattoo she was joking about...


(a tramp stamp of the Zappa mustache....but she didn't know what phrase to put with it.   *I* (in a state of distastful humor) suggested: "Why if she were my daughter I'd..."  on the left side and then "What would you do daddy?" on the right.....was that too far?   More importantly, did she ever get the tattoo??)

Haha! I remember that!
I actually think that I too enjoy this album more than Freak Out! And I always thought I liked We're Only In It For The Money even better. Well, we'll see about that in a couple of days.

I love the fact btw that there are both Zappa fans taking part and (relative) newcomers to his output. The more the merrier.
TAC, I'm adding years and months of release to each new album I'm posting, thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 07, 2015, 11:19:23 AM
´Ladies and gentlemen...the President of the United States of America´
´..cough cough....my fellow Americans...´
´He´s been sick....´

 ;D

Great album, made under extremely difficult circumstances. (for refference, read The Real Zappa Book).
Brown Shoes is an instant classic, so Is Call any vegetable.
Duke of Prunes is off course, about none other than John Wayne. Frank had a slight altercation in a bar with Wayne who came up to him, drunk, stating ´Do you know who I am? I´m THE DUKE!´ Hence, duke of Prunes....

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: jammindude on October 07, 2015, 01:45:21 PM
Isn't Lumpy Gravy next? It's #3 on the new official releases.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 07, 2015, 02:20:04 PM
Isn't Lumpy Gravy next? It's #3 on the new official releases.

Yes it is! I mentioned We're Only In It For The Money, cause Lumpy Gravy is technically a FZ solo album, but we'll get to that.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: jammindude on October 07, 2015, 07:05:08 PM
I should comment that I seriously love this album.  As soon as I put it in, I loved it much more than Freak Out (which I already liked just fine).    I can only repeat what has already been mentioned, but I did think it was an odd move to put the bonus tracks in the middle.   As a newcomer, I was looking for the "original album" experience.   But there have been some good points made about them being a good break between the two suites.   

Looking forward to Lumpy Gravy as that is one that I have done a lot of research on, but I've never actually heard.   For the most part, I tend to be very visceral when it comes to buying CD's.   I do occasionally buy CD's online, but mostly, I like the experience of going to the CD shop and buying things I find on impulse.    Many CD shops keep a decent supply of Zappa, but I've yet to find Lumpy Gravy on the shelf.   I do own In It for the Money, though. 

I should take a quick moment to say that my entire collection consists of:

Freak Out
Absolutely Free
We're Only In It for the Money
Hot Rats
200 Motels Soundtrack
Over-Nite Sensation
Bongo Fury
Sheik Yerbouti (vinyl)
Joe's Garage
and Strictly Commercial...which was my first.

Somewhere, I think I also have Apostrophe and Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch on cassette (somehow, my wife's ex's collection ended up in our house), but I haven't had a cassette player hooked up in forever.  I'll have to see if I can find one.
 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Mosh on October 07, 2015, 07:27:00 PM
I should comment that I seriously love this album.  As soon as I put it in, I loved it much more than Freak Out (which I already liked just fine).    I can only repeat what has already been mentioned, but I did think it was an odd move to put the bonus tracks in the middle.   As a newcomer, I was looking for the "original album" experience.   But there have been some good points made about them being a good break between the two suites.   
Yea, it's one of the few times an album is improved by the bonus tracks for me. Usually I skip them, but it's perfect with Absolutely Free.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Podaar on October 08, 2015, 06:20:57 AM
I should take a quick moment to say that my entire collection consists of:

Freak Out
Absolutely Free
We're Only In It for the Money
Hot Rats
200 Motels Soundtrack
Over-Nite Sensation
Bongo Fury
Sheik Yerbouti (vinyl)
Joe's Garage
and Strictly Commercial...which was my first.


I opened up this reply because I was going to type, "Jammin, you must get Zappa In New York!"

Then I thought, "Maybe he'd like Jazz from Hell too. Oh, and he absolutely needs Just Another Band from L.A.. What about Zoot Alures and One Size Fits All...Studio Tan..."

That's the thing with Frank isn't it? The "essential" list of any one fan is likely to be 30 or more albums.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 08, 2015, 06:30:48 AM
Well, I wouldnt put 200 Motels in there. That´s probably the worst album to get someone into Zappa´s music.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 08, 2015, 07:48:55 AM
Well, I wouldnt put 200 Motels in there. That´s probably the worst album to get someone into Zappa´s music.

The problem with Zappa lists is that every list is extremely long. Cause the Worst album to get someone into zappa would be Feeding The Monkies, or Dance me This, or Civilization Phase III, or Yellow Shark... or... or... or...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 08, 2015, 09:28:40 AM
Yeah. Point well made.  ;)

´Time to go home, Madge is on the phone
Got to meet the gurneys and a dozen grey attourneys
TV dinner by the Pool, I´m so glad I finished school.
Life is such a ball, I run the world from City Hall.´

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 09, 2015, 08:12:30 AM
Any more on Absolutely Free? I'm just reading in Barry Miles' Zappa Biography that the recording of Absolutely Free was done in 4 days. 4 days!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: bout to crash on October 10, 2015, 02:06:21 AM
Love this album!!  Curious if About to Crash ever got the tattoo she was joking about...


(a tramp stamp of the Zappa mustache....but she didn't know what phrase to put with it.   *I* (in a state of distastful humor) suggested: "Why if she were my daughter I'd..."  on the left side and then "What would you do daddy?" on the right.....was that too far?   More importantly, did she ever get the tattoo??)

Not yet, but it's in the cards for sure. Still not certain on the quote though :p

Any more on Absolutely Free? I'm just reading in Barry Miles' Zappa Biography that the recording of Absolutely Free was done in 4 days. 4 days!

Wow...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 10, 2015, 05:21:00 AM
I'm typing up my take on Lumpy Gravy, will be posting it tomorrow!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: hefdaddy42 on October 10, 2015, 08:28:39 AM
Finally got to listen to Absolutely Free.

Wow, that was some fucked up shit.

But somehow, I liked it!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: bout to crash on October 10, 2015, 02:00:53 PM
Damn right you did!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #2 Absolutely Free
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 11, 2015, 01:23:31 AM
Finally got to listen to Absolutely Free.

Wow, that was some fucked up shit.

But somehow, I liked it!

That's cool. Well, we're about to take it to the next level in terms of fucked up-ness.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #1 Freak Out!
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 11, 2015, 01:31:56 AM
Official Release #3 'Lumpy Gravy'
(Released 08/1967) *see below

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/03_LumpyGravy.jpg)

Background Information:
Zappa was a ‘classical’ composer before he was a rock guitar player, still people often doubted his serious side. This music was the first of Zappa’s serious music to be released, and a lot more would follow.
Mothers fans in those days wouldn’t be interested in this kind of music, Zappa knew that. He got an offer though from Capitol Records to write and release a classical record. Because of his other record contract with Verve/MGM he couldn’t play on this record, thus trying to release it under a different name (as a solo record), and with him conducting, because conducting wasn’t in the contract with Verve. When Verve/MGM threatened a lawsuit anyway, Zappa reedited the album into its ‘final’ form, a.k.a. the format that has become the standard version of Lumpy Gravy.
That’s why there’s a bit of a discussion whether this is the third album in Zappa’s discography or the fourth. The original version was released in august 1967, the Verve version in may 1968.

The album itself:
Probably the most difficult album in Zappa’s early work. Or at least the most unconventional. It doesn’t really have ‘songs’, no ‘lyrics’, nothing. In the inside sleeve it states:
‘Parts list:
Side One
Side Two’
The sleeve is full of little jokes ‘a curiously inconsistent piece which started out to be a BALLET but probably didn’t make it.’ ‘Listen to side one first, and turn it all the way up!!’ ‘Is this phase 2 of: we’re only in it for the money?’ etc.
Zappa named this record his own favorite, knowing Zappa a bit, we can be sure it won’t be the album that has the most ‘hits’ on it. This album is in fact a 31 minute collage of weird conversations recorded inside a piano (with a sandbag on the sustain pedal), short pieces for band, orchestra, choir or any combination, tape experiments, noise, musique concrete and yes, rock music.
This album, though, is not for everyone. It’s far from background music, it’s a difficult one to listen to, but the reward at the end of it is great.

Anyway, there’s no track-by-track for this release, because it just consists of two tracks.


Essential Tracks:
Part One. That's the most accessible one of the two parts. If you can’t make it through Part One, I don’t think you’ll get through Part Two.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Orbert on October 11, 2015, 01:42:24 AM
a 31 minute collage of weird conversations recorded inside a piano (with a sandbag on the sustain pedal)

Pedal-depressed panchromatic resonance and other highly ambient domains.  "Evelyn, A Modified Dog" was one of the first Zappa/Mothers tunes I ever heard, and it was only earlier this year that this connection was made clear to me.  Zappa's Conceptual Continuity strikes early and often.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 11, 2015, 01:46:37 AM
a 31 minute collage of weird conversations recorded inside a piano (with a sandbag on the sustain pedal)

Pedal-depressed panchromatic resonance and other highly ambient domains.  "Evelyn, A Modified Dog" was one of the first Zappa/Mothers tunes I ever heard, and it was only earlier this year that this connection was made clear to me.  Zappa's Conceptual Continuity strikes early and often.

Oh totally, I'm trying not to pay too much attention to Conceptual Continuity, because it would be incomprehensible for any new listeners to Zappa. But yeah, this record is full of it. Round Things Are Boring. The Civilization dialogues. Anything.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: bout to crash on October 11, 2015, 02:42:20 AM
Can't remember the last time I listened to this one. Maybe tomorrow...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Podaar on October 11, 2015, 09:01:00 AM
I really like the musical moments of Lumpy Gravy but the spoken word bits bore me.

a 31 minute collage of weird conversations recorded inside a piano (with a sandbag on the sustain pedal)

Pedal-depressed panchromatic resonance and other highly ambient domains.  "Evelyn, A Modified Dog" was one of the first Zappa/Mothers tunes I ever heard, and it was only earlier this year that this connection was made clear to me.  Zappa's Conceptual Continuity strikes early and often.

I never made the connection...does that mean the big snore sound that is used so frequently on these early albums is actually, "a curious breeze of garlic-breath"?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: jammindude on October 11, 2015, 09:49:07 AM
I have done quite a bit of research on this one, but only given it a passive listen on YT.    Are the two versions terribly different?   If so, do Zappa fans have a preference?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 11, 2015, 11:50:16 AM
I have done quite a bit of research on this one, but only given it a passive listen on YT.    Are the two versions terribly different?   If so, do Zappa fans have a preference?

Well since a 100 albums is already enough, I never really checked all alternative versions. I do have to say though, that since I've known the original version, I do prefer that as a piece of music. In terms of Zappa 'conceptual continuity' (his way of tying all his albums together) I prefer the later version. The dialogues make it a lot more interesting.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: jammindude on October 11, 2015, 11:52:54 AM
I have done quite a bit of research on this one, but only given it a passive listen on YT.    Are the two versions terribly different?   If so, do Zappa fans have a preference?

Well since a 100 albums is already enough, I never really checked all alternative versions. I do have to say though, that since I've known the original version, I do prefer that as a piece of music. In terms of Zappa 'conceptual continuity' (his way of tying all his albums together) I prefer the later version. The dialogues make it a lot more interesting.

How many are there?  I thought there were just the two?  The Capitol version and the Verve version.   Also, has the Zappa family released both versions or is the Capitol version lost to any that don't have the rare vinyl release?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 11, 2015, 12:02:05 PM
I have done quite a bit of research on this one, but only given it a passive listen on YT.    Are the two versions terribly different?   If so, do Zappa fans have a preference?

Well since a 100 albums is already enough, I never really checked all alternative versions. I do have to say though, that since I've known the original version, I do prefer that as a piece of music. In terms of Zappa 'conceptual continuity' (his way of tying all his albums together) I prefer the later version. The dialogues make it a lot more interesting.

How many are there?  I thought there were just the two?  The Capitol version and the Verve version.   Also, has the Zappa family released both versions or is the Capitol version lost to any that don't have the rare vinyl release?

There is a third UMRK 1984 version, with Chad Wackerman and Scott Thunes, or in other words not fitting drums and bass. Both the original and the 1984 version are on the Lumpy Money box set. Which is official release number 85. So we should get to that in a couple of years  :lol

But I meant all alternative versions of all albums. Cause there are a lot of Zappa albums with a mono mix, or a different mix. Which is cool if you are a Beatles fan, but 12 albums and a couple of alternate versions is something different than a 100 albums with different versions.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Ultimetalhead on October 11, 2015, 07:12:34 PM
Damn. I missed Absolutely Free. I really love that record, despite really not liking it at first. It was a major grower, for sure. All the Stravinsky references are lovely, and it all has a very contemporary musical feel to it. I'm a big fan of the more straightforward songs on the album (so, side 2) especially.

I've honestly never listened to Lumpy Gravy and I have no real desire to. From what I've gathered it's a full album of stuff like Monster Magnet/Chrome Plated Megaphone and it just doesn't jive with me.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Mosh on October 11, 2015, 07:13:40 PM
I really like Zappa's musique concrete stuff. This is full of it, which is really cool. I think it's utilized a bit better on Money, but still really cool here. I like how there will be seemingly endless chunks of noise and it'll evolve into a really cool orchestral musical part. The dialog is a lot of fun too.

It's kinda hard to talk about this album really. There's not much to say. It's a 30 minute sound collage, you either like it or you don't. I definitely think this is the first great experimental Zappa piece. And I love how it connects to WOIIFTM.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: KevShmev on October 11, 2015, 09:44:51 PM
Lumpy Gravy sounds like what inspired John Lennon to write Revolution 9.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 12, 2015, 12:38:46 AM
Yeah, Lumpy Gravy, not my thing. I could barely stand some of the fragments of stuff like this on other albums, let alone a whole record full of that stuff sorry. The next one, though.....
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 12, 2015, 12:47:14 AM
Damn. I missed Absolutely Free. I really love that record, despite really not liking it at first. It was a major grower, for sure. All the Stravinsky references are lovely, and it all has a very contemporary musical feel to it. I'm a big fan of the more straightforward songs on the album (so, side 2) especially.

I've honestly never listened to Lumpy Gravy and I have no real desire to. From what I've gathered it's a full album of stuff like Monster Magnet/Chrome Plated Megaphone and it just doesn't jive with me.

Well, it's definitely different from Monster Magnet and Chrome Plated... The orchestral/original version is a cool one to listen to. Try looking that up on youtube, it's Zappa first real 'classical' output. I'm sure you'll get through that. Not saying that you'd like it, though, can't really promise that ;)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: bout to crash on October 12, 2015, 06:19:43 PM
Finally listened to LG today. Just as weird as I remember  :lol
The music is fun and the talking stuff is cool at times, boring at other times. It's not something I would listen to very often, but I don't dislike it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 13, 2015, 09:15:39 AM
Finally listened to LG today. Just as weird as I remember  :lol
The music is fun and the talking stuff is cool at times, boring at other times. It's not something I would listen to very often, but I don't dislike it.

I got really excited by the fact that it's Frank's favorite. But no matter how much I try, it doesn't grab me.
I'll be writing up We're Only In It For The Money in the next couple days. So, you got a couple of days to catch Lumpy Gravy.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: darkshade on October 14, 2015, 06:49:55 PM
"I was making... uh.... $2.71 an hour."

This album is Conceptual Continuity at its finest, this album is full of CC, and every Zappa album before and after 1968 can be drawn back to this album.

I just got a chance to pop in Lumpy Gravy, and if you dismiss it without hearing it, you might miss out. There are some beautiful moments, especially towards the end of Part 1. However, this is not to say the album is quite, well, avant-garde. Humor in music indeed.

I didn't like Lumpy Gravy at first, but I appreciated the ridiculousness of it. Over time, it has grown on me, and I now consider it one of my favorites. There are so many musical themes that would be fleshed out more on later albums, and the absurd dialogue kinda juxtapositions the musical sections nicely. I still don't understand why it's "part 2 of WOIIFTM" which is "part 1 of Lumpy Gravy" or whatever parts they're supposed to be (and CPIII is the third part). The only thing connecting the 3 albums are the dialogue (esp. LG and CPIII).

I guess LG and WOIIFTM have the line, "my hair is getting good in the back." so there's that.

I definitely recommend Lumpy Money which has the original Verve release for Lumpy Gravy, which is all the orchestral music together as one piece, and some music that was cut out for the version of Lumpy Gravy that we all know and love.

"Pick up sticks? You ever play that game? aaaahHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA"- that's some Cheech and Chong stuff before they were a thing.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Mosh on October 14, 2015, 10:41:25 PM
I still don't understand why it's "part 2 of WOIIFTM" which is "part 1 of Lumpy Gravy" or whatever parts they're supposed to be (and CPIII is the third part). The only thing connecting the 3 albums are the dialogue (esp. LG and CPIII).

There's quite a bit of sampling from LG in Money. One of the orchestral parts appears in Mother People and I'm pretty sure one of the verses from the same song is sped up in one of the noisy sections of LG. Also a lot of the same sound effects and musique concrete stuff appears on both albums.

Edit: Also Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance at the end of part 2!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: darkshade on October 15, 2015, 05:49:43 PM
I still don't understand why it's "part 2 of WOIIFTM" which is "part 1 of Lumpy Gravy" or whatever parts they're supposed to be (and CPIII is the third part). The only thing connecting the 3 albums are the dialogue (esp. LG and CPIII).

There's quite a bit of sampling from LG in Money. One of the orchestral parts appears in Mother People and I'm pretty sure one of the verses from the same song is sped up in one of the noisy sections of LG. Also a lot of the same sound effects and musique concrete stuff appears on both albums.

Edit: Also Take Your Clothes Off When You Dance at the end of part 2!

You're right. I should have waited until I listened to WOIIFTM before asking that question, as I haven't listened to it in a while now.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 17, 2015, 04:55:54 AM
Time for the next album, later today! Number 4 already, we're blasting through it!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 17, 2015, 07:50:47 AM
Official Release #4 'We're Only In It For The Money'
(Released 03/1968)

(https://eriksgaap.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/zappa.jpg)
(This is the original cover, after The Beatles had released Sgt Pepper, Zappa wanted to make fun of their cover, suggesting they we're only in it for the money, but The Beales' management wouldn't have it.)

Background Information:
You could say that Zappa was looking for his ‘sound’ in the early years.
That he was trying different things out. We’re Only In It For The Money is an album where lyrics are becoming more important, orchestral work is dialed down, and pop songs are linked to more abstract pieces of modern classical music. (However real Zappa fans will point to the continuity in all his music, saying that it’s all connected etc)


The album itself:
This is a very advanced album, both in terms of studio technique, and in terms of composition.
Possibly because the band got more time than during the recording of Absolutely Free it all sounds more completed.
In terms of composition this is a complete different thing from the first three albums. Everything is even more interlinked that it was on the first records. Musique Concrète and studio effects mostly flash by during pop songs, instead of having their own spot. Another thing that stands out is the use of melodies. Zappa music mostly isn’t about goosebumps, but this album really has its pretty melodies (the intro of Absolutely Free, Mom & Dad and the orchestral break in Mother People are prime examples).
Instead of the sidelong suites on Absolutely Free, this record focusses more on short songs. A bunch of these songs are difficult to perform live, but most ‘real’ songs would become live favorites. Later in Zappa’s career this would be different, most of his records are live recordings, with added overdubs. The fact that we’re getting studio-only tracks is pretty unique for this part of his career.

Even more than the production and the composition the greatest leap was made in terms of lyrics. Where the first two albums (let’s not count Lumpy Gravy when we’re discussing lyrics) had doo-wop songs, with doo-wop-songs subjects, and a couple of satirical songs, this record is one big satire fest. It has really funny moments, a couple of hard hitting satire songs, but overall it targets both right-wing and left-wing politics together with the Hippy Culture.


Essential Tracks:
Who Needs The Peace Corps?
Mom & Dad
Absolutely Free
Flower Punk
The Idiot Bastard Son
Mother People
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: darkshade on October 17, 2015, 02:08:53 PM
This is probably Frank's most demented album. Also his most controversial. Also the most 'dated' in sound, in a good way; I mean, it sounds like I just jumped right into the middle of 1967, with The Monkees playing in the background, but this is much more interesting music than your average 60s band. The album makes fun of the hippie generation, ironically, as the main audience of The Mothers in the 60s was those same people Frank was mocking.

If Frank were around now, I feel like he would make a similarly themed album, lyrically, and instead of hippies, it would be hipsters, millennials, etc... but who knows... However, Frank calls out hippies, parents, San Francisco (how relevant today), cops; remember, there was a lot of turmoil during the Summer of Love in 1967. Sounds a lot like social issues we face today.

WOIIFTM is the first album in Frank's career that really came off like a big middle finger towards establishment, culture, society, or whatever the anger, contempt, and frustration was directed towards. This is one of the funnier FZ albums, but the album has some really powerful music in Mom and Dad, a rare serious topic for Zappa. This is essential Zappa listening, and for newbies, may take some time to appreciate. But when this came out, like Freak Out!, it was probably mind-blowing for the LSD kids. This is an album to listen to on headphones, too. Lot of sound manipulation, and panning, going on. For me, though, this one JUST misses the masterpiece status for me. Not too sure why, maybe because the next album, Uncle Meat, goes further than this album, and is more adventurous. But this album i crazy!

Besides Frank and The Mothers, Frank's wife, the late Gail, as well as Jimi Hendrix are on the cover. The 2012 reissues of this album reinstated the original artwork.

Oh yea, "Mother People" at the end. Total reprise of a section from Lumpy Gravy. Makes so much more sense.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 18, 2015, 05:20:12 AM
Now we´ve moved into masterpiece material with this little album. From the beginning on it is clear that we´re in for a hoot. Offcourse, this is a brilliant satyricial dig on the hippie/music culture of the time, but also on the state of afairs in general.

Frank manages to poke fun and be deadly scathingly serious at the same time. There are some bizarre sound collages and role playing to be found, like the phone conversation snippet. Zappa asked Pamela Zarubica to come to New York to look after Gail during the latter stages of her pregnancy as he was about to leave for a European tour.
While recording Zarubica, as Suzy Creamcheese, Vicki called to tell her that her father was looking for her and had involved the FBI who were threatening to arrest Vicki for withholding information. Zarubica called her back to discuss matters and Zappa recorded the conversation including a 45 second snippet on the album.  The amount of tape editting and splicing on this album is staggering. Also, Frank commented about the strange censorship being applied when he submitted it to the record label.
For instance the sentence from ´Let´s make turn the water turn black´  about a waitress with her apron and her pad was censored out, but the prominently in the mix clearly audible ´FLOWER POWER SUCKS!´in Flower Punk  (repeated, panning Sucks, sucks sucks sucks' wasn´t. Not to mention a song about two boys peeing in a pot and smearing boogers on the windows to watch them turn green/black.

Highlights for me were (really too much to mention) Take your clothes off when you dance, who needs the peace corps, concentration moon, what´s the ugliest part of your body and the poigniently beautiful ´Mom and Dad´. (mom, dad, someone killed some cops today, down in the park where they quietly lay. Down beside the freaks you knew. They killed them too.´ (there´s a great live version of this and concentration moon on Playground Psychotics with Flo and Eddie), in Harry, you´re a beast Franks seems to be at his most sardonic about sexual morale, a constantly re-accuring theme in his music. The lines ´Don´t come in me, in me´ were censured, but are clearly audible, once you know what they are.  Special mention goes out to Lonely little girl for being such a great doowop song.

After hearing this great contemorary masterpiece, I regained a whole new respect for Frank and his early Mothers.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: Mosh on October 18, 2015, 09:28:32 PM
Worth mentioning that FZ considers this album as part of a single project called No Commercial Potential. The other albums in this series are Lumpy Gravy, Uncle Meat, and Crusin' With Ruben and the Jets.

Quote
It's all one album. All the material in the albums is organically related and if I had all the master tapes and I could take a razor blade and cut them apart and put it together again in a different order it still would make one piece of music you can listen to. Then I could take that razor blade and cut it apart and reassemble it a different way, and it still would make sense. I could do this twenty ways. The material is definitely related.


There are a few things that stick out about this album to me:


* No Ray Collins. It's very strange to hear a Mothers album without him. But it's cool hearing Frank sing lead on most songs and the vocal effects are cool. They give the album a unique identity.

* Ian Underwood's first album! There wasn't really a piano player on the first two albums, so the increased amount of piano on this album adds a new dimension to FZ's sound.

* I love the noises in this. I love the way they're mixed with the actual music. It's a bit more balanced than Lumpy Gravy and works better in this context I think. It's too bad Frank didn't do more musique concrete stuff.

* This is probably one of Zappa's darkest albums. There are some slightly more serious topics (Mom & Dad) and the various noises and sound effects give the album a more ominous tone for me.

Best Mothers album.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: jammindude on October 18, 2015, 09:51:48 PM
This album is just so brilliant.  Who Needs the Peace Corps is probably my all time favorite FZ song.   It's just amazing to me that this came out *right on top* of the summer of love.     I was raised to believe that the Summer of '67 was the greatest moment of the hippy movement, and Frank just blew a big wet fart all over that idea.   It's like it was already a joke before it even got started.    The more I looked into it, it seems that the original "love-ins" going back to '65 were the real hippies.   Once the word got out, everyone else was nothing but what Frank describes in that opening track. 

Let's Make the Water Turn Black is really awesome too.   There's honestly not a single moment of this album I don't love.  Well, Nasal Retentive Calliope Music is a bit grating.  :-\
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 19, 2015, 03:02:32 AM
Love all of your contributions, the fact that there's a lot of Zappa fans makes me a tad nervous when writing. But it's great running a thread like this one!
Where are the new guys though? As much as I love talking Zappa with fans of his music, I'd love to introduce new people to him.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: jammindude on October 19, 2015, 06:08:45 AM
My collection is fairly spotty from here on out, so I'm going to feel like the new guy through most of it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 19, 2015, 09:21:56 AM
Just keep on writing man. There´s plenty of albums that I don´t own. (yet).
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: Mosh on October 19, 2015, 10:18:52 AM
Yea, eventually we'll get to some I haven't heard yet. Last time I counted I owned 25 albums, which is literally just a quarter of his discography. :p I'm really excited about this thread and plan on hearing some of these for the first time once we get to them here.

Loving it so far!  :tup
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: bout to crash on October 20, 2015, 12:17:16 AM
I've heard most of this album, but never actually listened to the whole thing til the other day (I don't own it). I have to listen a few more times, I think, to have commentary.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 20, 2015, 08:16:09 AM
I've heard most of this album, but never actually listened to the whole thing til the other day (I don't own it). I have to listen a few more times, I think, to have commentary.

Looking forward to reading your thoughts!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: Ultimetalhead on October 20, 2015, 03:19:33 PM
Money is so, so good. It flows beautifully as a singular piece, but the parts on their own are all phenomenal too. I could see how some could be bothered by the relentless interludes but I think they add to the package perfectly. I especially love the section of Nasal Retentive Calliope Music where it settles into this nice surf groove with a catchy guitar melody for about 2 seconds before quickly diving back into noise collage. Funny shit.

Again, I don't really care for Chrome Plated Megaphone, but it's easy enough to just end the album with Mother People and go on with my life. Phenomenal disc.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 21, 2015, 12:57:50 AM
I'm gonna tell you the way it is
And it's not going to be nice and easy
Your whole attitude stinks, I say
And the life you lead is completely empty.
You paint your head
Your mind is dead
You don't even know what I just said
That's you....American womenhood!

Bam! drops mic!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #4 We're Only In It For The Money
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 22, 2015, 12:05:07 PM
I love the enthusiasm for this album! Definitely one of Zappa's masterpieces, easily of his best 60's albums for me!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 24, 2015, 03:31:38 AM
Official Release #5 'Cruising With Ruben & The Jets'
(Released 11/1968)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/05_CRUSING-WITH-RUBEN.jpg)


Background Information:
Frank’s first and final all-out attempt to get ‘The Mothers’ cruddy music on the radio.’
This album is an album full of doo-wop, which is odd, considering that Zappa usually shows his influences alongside each other on an album, or even within a song, instead of an album full of one thing.
There are stories of Zappa trying to fool the radio DJ’s by crediting this album to Ruben & The Jets, to actually get his music to be played. Although he still wasn’t a big international star back then, his name had spread, and mostly that meant that official stations weren’t at all interested in him or his music.
In The Real Frank Zappa Book (read it people, it’s definitely worth it!) he claims he detests love lyrics, and wrote these lyrics to be as dumb as possible, just because it fits the genre.
I have to point out that there are two versions of this album. In 1984 Zappa started to rerecord his old albums, by cutting away bass guitar and drums, and replacing them with a newer bass sound, and horrifyingly: an electronic kit. The 1968 version does have a strange drum sound (the snare drum just sounds like someone hitting a bucket), but it does feel a lot more original, I suggest you check that one out. You can find that one quite easily on YouTube.



The album itself:
This is a remarkable album to listen to, it’s really enjoyable, something that can’t be said of every Zappa album. Most of the times it’s about the effort that you put in, and you have to look for beauty in weird, atonal passages. Not on this album, every song makes you wanna tap your foot along.
There are a couple of tracks on here that debuted on Freak Out!, just two years earlier. The songs have been reworked, and, well, Zappa did his best to make them sound more like they were actually recorded in the 50’s.


Essential Tracks:
Cheap Thrills
Deseri
Anything
Fountain of Love
Anyway the wind Blows


(PS. I'll be out of the country for a couple of days beginning next tuesday, next update in about 9 days)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Orbert on October 24, 2015, 08:09:45 AM
I was tempted to pick this one up many times of the years, but never have, as I'm really not a big Doo-Wop fan.  I admit that it would be interesting to hear at the very least, but there's so much Zappa/Mothers, and by time I got around to filling in the blanks, I guess it just wasn't a priority.

Maybe I'll check some out on YouTube, though.  I never think of that.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: KevShmev on October 24, 2015, 09:43:09 AM
Same here. I had never even heard of this album until reading this thread just now, and I have to admit that I have little urge to it out.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 24, 2015, 10:20:03 AM
Yeah I get that. If the Doo-Wop stuff isn't your cup of coffee, Zappa made it real easy on you. I'd suggest to check out one or two of my essential list on youtube though. This is actually one of the only albums he's made that fun all the way through, imo.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: jammindude on October 24, 2015, 08:55:26 PM
I begged for this thread to exist for probably almost 2 years, and this is why.  I really want to hear and read more about albums I don't have yet. 

At this point, I'm so fascinated by the man himself, that I will probably (albeit very slowly) end up making the journey to pick up most if not all his non-collection albums. 

Thank you for the heads up regarding the re-record...that is truly a disappointment.   It's only been fairly recently that the Zappa family started to release newly packaged (and I *think* remastered??) re-releases.   Does the original version exist?  Or is the new release only the 1984 re-record?   
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Mosh on October 24, 2015, 10:35:20 PM
You'd have to get Greasy Love Songs to hear it.

https://www.amazon.com/Greasy-Love-Songs-Frank-Zappa/dp/B003OFKGJS

Bit of a bummer that they didn't release the original Ruben master in 2012. Not sure why ether, they released the original WOIIFTM.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 25, 2015, 01:16:36 AM
I begged for this thread to exist for probably almost 2 years, and this is why.  I really want to hear and read more about albums I don't have yet. 

At this point, I'm so fascinated by the man himself, that I will probably (albeit very slowly) end up making the journey to pick up most if not all his non-collection albums. 

Thank you for the heads up regarding the re-record...that is truly a disappointment.   It's only been fairly recently that the Zappa family started to release newly packaged (and I *think* remastered??) re-releases.   Does the original version exist?  Or is the new release only the 1984 re-record?

Like Mosh said, there's Greasy Love Songs, but there's more.
I have the original version on Vinyl, that one's pretty easy to find. Actually, finding the 1984 version on vinyl would be really difficult. And then there's youtube, just search for Zappa Ruben 1968 and you're there.
In 2012 a sort of extensive compilation was released (Understanding America (officialrelease #93)) but even that used the 1984 tapes. I don't really get what Zappa liked about re-doing those old albums, especially with a sound that obviously would go out of date very fast. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: bout to crash on October 25, 2015, 04:40:59 AM
Yess, I have this one on vinyl and love it! Just listened to it the other day but will have to give it another spin.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Mosh on October 25, 2015, 10:04:07 AM
I begged for this thread to exist for probably almost 2 years, and this is why.  I really want to hear and read more about albums I don't have yet. 

At this point, I'm so fascinated by the man himself, that I will probably (albeit very slowly) end up making the journey to pick up most if not all his non-collection albums. 

Thank you for the heads up regarding the re-record...that is truly a disappointment.   It's only been fairly recently that the Zappa family started to release newly packaged (and I *think* remastered??) re-releases.   Does the original version exist?  Or is the new release only the 1984 re-record?

Like Mosh said, there's Greasy Love Songs, but there's more.
I have the original version on Vinyl, that one's pretty easy to find. Actually, finding the 1984 version on vinyl would be really difficult. And then there's youtube, just search for Zappa Ruben 1968 and you're there.
In 2012 a sort of extensive compilation was released (Understanding America (officialrelease #93)) but even that used the 1984 tapes. I don't really get what Zappa liked about re-doing those old albums, especially with a sound that obviously would go out of date very fast.


Do you think he knew it would go out of date that fast? This might be a question better asked to some of the board members who were around at the time (e.g. Orbert), but maybe he thought that 80s sound would have the same timeless quality as that of the 60s and early 70s? Most of those albums aged really well.

Combine that with his fascination for the current technology, I can kinda see where he's coming from. And I do agree that the drums on those two albums aren't good. Especially WOIIFTM. JCB sticks out like a sore thumb on some of the more experimental Zappa recordings IMO. Don't get me wrong though, I'd still take that over those awful 80s overdubs.  :lol

But yea, the part that's baffling to me is that the ZFT didn't reissue the 68 Ruben in 2012. They reverted back to the original masters on just about every other album, including Money.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 25, 2015, 01:55:21 PM
I'd love to hear if the 80's synth pop was considered to be timeless. I can't really see how such a new way of making music, or making sounds even, would be anything more than cool or interesting. As I'm typing this a lot of exceptions spring to mind though.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: darkshade on October 25, 2015, 04:15:07 PM
Cruising With Ruben and the Jets is flat out 1950s doo-wop and R&B, to put on when you're making out with your girlfriend after your first date, and maybe she won't notice the flashes of Zappa brilliance and humor hidden within the music.

This is one of a very few albums you could skip, and it wouldn't make you less of a fan, and you wouldn't really miss much. Most of these songs pop up in other albums, too, albeit in different forms. It's more of a curio piece, and if you're gonna check this one out, listen to the original 1968 mix which is on Greasy Love Songs, or the vinyl if you find it, as mentioned already. How Could I Be Such A Fool has a cool, though short, groove going on towards the end. "Anything" has a nice jazzy sax solo. Other moments throughout make you realize you're not listening to any old doo-wop album, but mostly this is Zappa's "happiest" album, or most upbeat, least offensive, and generally fun album all around. In the context of the 60s Mothers, this album just adds to the insanity of that era, especially being surrounded by LG, WOIIFTM, and the follow up to this album.

This is not an album I was in any rush to check out when I was new to Zappa. I don't think I first heard Crusin' for at least a year or two after getting into Zappa. I find I only put this one on when doing run-throughs of Zappa's discography, like right now!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Orbert on October 25, 2015, 04:44:41 PM
I don't really get what Zappa liked about re-doing those old albums, especially with a sound that obviously would go out of date very fast.

Do you think he knew it would go out of date that fast? This might be a question better asked to some of the board members who were around at the time (e.g. Orbert), but maybe he thought that 80s sound would have the same timeless quality as that of the 60s and early 70s? Most of those albums aged really well.

I honestly don't know why Frank decided to mess with his original works, but count me among those who felt that he had a bit of a "George Lucas complex" about it.  As an artist and a real perfectionist, my sense was that it always bothered him how the original albums did not reflect his vision for the work.  He's mentioned a few times how he's always loved composition and that part of the process, and we've seen in retrospect that there was always a "serious composer" in him trying to get out, so in the early days, he worked with what he had, which was mostly rock ensembles and sometimes hired guns.  It doesn't surprise me that he was sometimes disappointed in what ended up on albums bearing his name, and that he had it in his head to "fix" them when he had the time and resources to do so.

I'm getting ahead of the timeline here, but it's relevant so I'll mention that when my first Zappa album, Sheik Yerbouti, came to CD, he'd taken the opportunity to re-edit some of it.  Mostly he just messed with segues between songs, but there was also some remixing and remastering done.  He seemed to see the CD as a new medium, and the opportunity to re-work what was originally a double LP into a single CD was a opportunity to tighten up his work.  "All tracks segue" was something I saw right in the liner notes a few times during that era.  That's his right to do, just as it was always George Lucas' right to re-edit and fuck up Star Wars as much as he wanted.  I don't know how much fans of the original work have the "right" to be upset by it, but there's no question that that was one result.  A friend of mine from work (and fellow Zappa fan) grabbed it on CD when it came out, and we were both disappointed, so I never got it.  In particular, I remember that a lot of the electronic freaking out at the end of "I'm So Cute" was cut, and I love that part.  On the LP, it was the last song on the side, so it made sense in a way to just let it go on.  On the CD, it cut quickly to the next song, originally the first song in the next LP side.  Bummer.

Anyway, I wasn't aware that he'd gone so far as to re-record parts of earlier albums for the CD versions.  Knowing how much painstaking effort Frank put into work like this, and how some tracks are Frankenstein composites (basic track recorded live, except the drums which come from another song, plus studio overdubs, etc.) I guess it's not surprising, and if he felt that the result better reflected what he thought the music should be, then that's his prerogative.  And as with Lucas, he was apparently not concerned with those who might just want to experience the original in a new format.

Weird, I'm comparing the original Star Wars trilogy on Blu-ray to original Zappa/Mothers albums on CD, but that's basically it.  We just want what we grew up with, not the "new, improved" versions.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Mosh on October 25, 2015, 06:08:55 PM
The George Lucas comparison makes sense. They also use the same excuse that the original tapes were damaged/lost/whatever.  Although one major difference is that unlike the original Star Wars, it's not too hard to get ahold of the original versions of those Zappa albums in good quality.

I guess I understand where Frank was coming from. Those old albums have their flaws. I also get the feeling that in the 80s, Zappa was trying to "disprove the myth" that the original Mothers was the best band he was involved with. He did this with the YCDTOSA series as well, juxtaposing Mothers recordings with stuff from the current bands. That was a pretty cool idea, but I think it's safe to say messing with the old Mothers recordings kinda backfired on him.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: darkshade on October 25, 2015, 06:15:09 PM
I don't really get what Zappa liked about re-doing those old albums, especially with a sound that obviously would go out of date very fast.

Do you think he knew it would go out of date that fast? This might be a question better asked to some of the board members who were around at the time (e.g. Orbert), but maybe he thought that 80s sound would have the same timeless quality as that of the 60s and early 70s? Most of those albums aged really well.

I honestly don't know why Frank decided to mess with his original works, but count me among those who felt that he had a bit of a "George Lucas complex" about it.  As an artist and a real perfectionist, my sense was that it always bothered him how the original albums did not reflect his vision for the work.  He's mentioned a few times how he's always loved composition and that part of the process, and we've seen in retrospect that there was always a "serious composer" in him trying to get out, so in the early days, he worked with what he had, which was mostly rock ensembles and sometimes hired guns.  It doesn't surprise me that he was sometimes disappointed in what ended up on albums bearing his name, and that he had it in his head to "fix" them when he had the time and resources to do so.

I'm getting ahead of the timeline here, but it's relevant so I'll mention that when my first Zappa album, Sheik Yerbouti, came to CD, he'd taken the opportunity to re-edit some of it.  Mostly he just messed with segues between songs, but there was also some remixing and remastering done.  He seemed to see the CD as a new medium, and the opportunity to re-work what was originally a double LP into a single CD was a opportunity to tighten up his work.  "All tracks segue" was something I saw right in the liner notes a few times during that era.  That's his right to do, just as it was always George Lucas' right to re-edit and fuck up Star Wars as much as he wanted.  I don't know how much fans of the original work have the "right" to be upset by it, but there's no question that that was one result.  A friend of mine from work (and fellow Zappa fan) grabbed it on CD when it came out, and we were both disappointed, so I never got it.  In particular, I remember that a lot of the electronic freaking out at the end of "I'm So Cute" was cut, and I love that part.  On the LP, it was the last song on the side, so it made sense in a way to just let it go on.  On the CD, it cut quickly to the next song, originally the first song in the next LP side.  Bummer.

Anyway, I wasn't aware that he'd gone so far as to re-record parts of earlier albums for the CD versions.  Knowing how much painstaking effort Frank put into work like this, and how some tracks are Frankenstein composites (basic track recorded live, except the drums which come from another song, plus studio overdubs, etc.) I guess it's not surprising, and if he felt that the result better reflected what he thought the music should be, then that's his prerogative.  And as with Lucas, he was apparently not concerned with those who might just want to experience the original in a new format.

Weird, I'm comparing the original Star Wars trilogy on Blu-ray to original Zappa/Mothers albums on CD, but that's basically it.  We just want what we grew up with, not the "new, improved" versions.

The new reissue of Sheik is the original version on CD.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Orbert on October 25, 2015, 06:38:39 PM
Truly?  I want it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Mosh on October 25, 2015, 06:50:10 PM
Yep. It sounds great! It's a direct transfer from the original master.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Nihil-Morari on October 26, 2015, 01:01:03 AM
Thanks Orbert! I can totally see the comparison too, and I still think there will be 'ultimate editions' of all Zappa albums available sometime. The next reissue maybe. The Sheik Yerbouti thing is a valid one too, I remember loving the LP much more than the cd, but I never really could put my finger on it.

Funny enough I see most people finding Ruben an album for completionists. It's quite possibly in my top 10 most played Zappa albums. Not saying that it's in my top 10 favorite Zappa albums, but this is an album that you can play in the background. Or even, like Darkshade said, on dates. My girlfriend likes this album too, which is awesome.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Cyclopssss on October 26, 2015, 06:11:41 AM
This is one I don't own. For completists, there are some great versions of songs from this era (and others) on the brilliant 'The Lost Tapes'. There's a great version of 'Fountain of love' with a bass track fed through a fuzz pedal, which makes for an interesting effect. Also there's fun versions of Anyway the wind blows and 'Charva' with lyrics that'll make you laugh out loud, I promise.

Throughout, there's some early captain Beefheart recordings (recordes sans earphones, because Beefheart didn't like singing with them on) like 'Tiger Roach' and 'I'm  a bandleader' which coins the prase 'Grand Wazoo' !
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Mosh on October 26, 2015, 10:46:32 AM
I think the problem with this album isn't that it's necessarily bad, but in terms of original Mothers, it doesn't really introduce a new dimension of their sound. There are several other more essental Mothers albums that have the doo wop sprinkled in, which makes this album non-esssential for anyone who wants to have a full understanding of this particular band. Just about every other Mothers album does this, or presents the band in a way we haven't heard before.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: darkshade on October 29, 2015, 11:23:13 AM
This was going on around the same time.
(https://www.suprmchaos.com/nesmith-zappa5.jpg)

The Monkee's Michael Nesmith playing Zappa who is playing Mihael Nesmith
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 02, 2015, 03:23:15 AM
Will be updating with Uncle Meat in a couple of days!

In other news: have you guys checked out Roxy The Movie? It's awesome!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Cyclopssss on November 02, 2015, 04:18:55 AM
Just saw the trailer. Looks promising. How long is it? Any favourites yet?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 02, 2015, 06:01:31 AM
Just saw the trailer. Looks promising. How long is it? Any favourites yet?

The main feature is 105 minutes, which is too short of course. I love actually seeing the Bebop Tango, after listening to Carl, Rick and Jane dance for years and years, you can now actually see them dance.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Orbert on November 02, 2015, 06:12:27 AM
One of the reviewers seems to really hate that part.  Says it drags, and isn't any better when you can see them.  I'm pretty much the opposite.  It cracks me up just imaging them twitching around on stage while Frank and the band messes with them.  I'm looking forward to seeing them, and of course Lana and Brenda.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: darkshade on November 02, 2015, 12:39:49 PM
Amazing, in the time that this thread has been around, which has not been that long, already two new Frank Zappa releases have come out/been announced.

The Roxy Movie is finally out (btw, where can I view this/buy this? Amazon?) and Official Release #101 has been announced for December - "200 Motels: The Suites"
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12118678_10153006273821920_4600113569910763073_n.jpg?oh=88c7672a61475c57b7d4baf0f0281e1e&oe=56AF1ADA)

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B016Z4697C (https://www.amazon.de/dp/B016Z4697C)

Not sure why The Roxy Movie (which contains a CD) is not #101, and 200 Motels: The Suites is #102, but lots of things don't make sense in the chronological sense of Zappa's canon. Then again, the DVD/Blu-ray releases are never counted, only when it's a separate CD-only release, like Roxy By Proxy, Token of His Extreme and Dub-Room Special, etc...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: bout to crash on November 02, 2015, 07:33:30 PM
One of the reviewers seems to really hate that part.  Says it drags, and isn't any better when you can see them.  I'm pretty much the opposite.  It cracks me up just imaging them twitching around on stage while Frank and the band messes with them.  I'm looking forward to seeing them, and of course Lana and Brenda.

Agreed!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Mosh on November 02, 2015, 09:48:11 PM
+2! The visuals totally enhances it. Plus it's pretty close to how I imagined it :p

It's a cool video. I don't have the same connection with Roxy as most fans, I was introduced to the Helsinki Tapes first and that will always be my go to for the 74 band and the superior album to my ears. That said, the DVD still had me with chills at the end. It felt like a very special performance, especially Frank seemed even more into it than in other footage I've seen (Token of His Extreme comes to mind).

That early rendition of Inca Roads is so cool! Wasn't familiar with that one.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: XB0BX on November 03, 2015, 06:57:11 AM
The concept of Frank Zappa appeals  to me, but did he ever do any actual music? Everything I've heard is comedy, and I don't listen to music to laugh.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: darkshade on November 03, 2015, 07:28:16 AM
The concept of Frank Zappa appeals  to me, but did he ever do any actual music? Everything I've heard is comedy, and I don't listen to music to laugh.

Zappa's music is the only music that can still make me laugh, snicker, even after multiple listens. I find much of the humor even funnier the deeper into his music you get (Conceptual Continuity)

However, I disagree that his most humorous stuff was not musical. O-NS and Apostrophe are quite very musical albums, though it is filled with funny words and subject matter. SYB rocks your face off, and Joe's Garage brings in funk, reggae and jazz-fusion though both albums are his most controversial and humorous, lyrically.

Are you listening to select tracks, or full albums? If you listen to full albums, you'll realize that while humor is a big part of Zappa's sound, it is only one aspect, but one that is probably most noticeable to new or uninitiated listeners.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Cyclopssss on November 03, 2015, 07:30:10 AM
Yellow Shark, zappa meeets the TSO. His neo-classical stuff.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 03, 2015, 10:50:17 AM
The concept of Frank Zappa appeals  to me, but did he ever do any actual music? Everything I've heard is comedy, and I don't listen to music to laugh.

Actual music? Like with notes and instruments and everything? Gee, that's a hard one.

Joking aside, he didn't like lyrics, he didn't like listening to them or indeed writing them, so yeah, you'll get deeper lyrics on a Green Day album. I you can't stand un-serious music, you could try his instrumental albums. There's both guitar solo oriented records (just the solo parts of live renditions of his songs) and his neo classical music. But since you only like real music, neo classical and solo's only would be difficult to sit through.

Try looking up a song called Inca Roads, preferably the 'A Token of his Extreme' version. If that works for you, I could start from there.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Orbert on November 03, 2015, 11:16:42 AM
There's also some instrumental and mostly-instrumental albums from his "regular rock" period before he dug into the neo-classical stuff.

Hot Rats is a fave.  The second track has vocals, but the rest is instrumental.  I like The Grand Wazoo, although I seem to think there's a track with vocals somewhere on there, too.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Mosh on November 03, 2015, 09:46:37 PM
For the "serious" side of Zappa, Hot Rats is the one to go to no question. It's impossible not to love Peaches En Regalia.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Cyclopssss on November 04, 2015, 05:16:34 AM
The Grand Wazoo. But perhaps these posts are better suited in the 'general' Zappa thread.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Orbert on November 04, 2015, 07:05:06 AM
Probably.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #5 Cruising With Ruben & The Jets
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 04, 2015, 10:51:50 AM
Totally.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=884.0 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=884.0)

Update tomorrow!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #3 Lumpy Gravy
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 04, 2015, 12:42:10 PM
Official Release #6 'Uncle Meat'
(Released 03/1969)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/06_UNCLEMEAT.jpg)


Background Information:
A very, very advanced record. Zappa already set the bar high in terms of composition, diverseness and recording technique, but he surpasses everything he had already done with this album.
Zappa was already making films before his first record came out, Studio Z, the studio he had as a 24 year old, was his filmset. 200 Motels was supposed to be a science fiction movie incorporating The Mothers’ sexual escapades while touring. The movie turned out to be way too expensive to actually finish. The CD booklet states ‘This film is stashed away in my basement, while we scheme on how to raise 300,000 dollars to finish it’
New in the group was Ruth Komanoff (later Ruth Underwood) playing marimba, vibes and percussion. She would wind up to really define the sound of Zappa’s music.
Although bits of the movie were released in the 80’s, the entire movie was never finished.
The combination of live tracks and studio tracks makes this record a very diverse, but also a very all-over-the-place album. As if pop, classical and modern classical music, together with spoken word wasn’t enough. This one is on the brink of being too much.
Also, this really feels like a compilation album, like Zappa would make later in his career. A bit of everything he does on one album.


The album itself:
To be really clear about this one, the addition of 40 minutes of movie dialogue and ‘Tengo Na Minchia Tanta’ are among the weirdest additions to a CD reissue ever. Skip those. I get the fact that without them the album would’ve been 79 minutes, so a single CD, but too long to deal with, so adding stuff and making it a 2CD makes sense. But not this.
Anyway, on to the music.
There’s a couple of classic Zappa tunes on this album, both Uncle Meat/Uncle Meat Variations, and Dog Breath/Dog Breath variations have been played on numerous tours, and have been released countless times.
Both of those are great examples of Zappa’s songwriting. Strange melodies, far out rhythms, bizarre orchestrations and still you’re humming along with them, smiling every time you fail.
Other than that the aforementioned pieces (together with The Legend of the Golden Arches/A Pound for a Brown on the Bus, and the underrated Zolar Czakl) prove that Zappa was way ahead of his time in terms of overdubbing. Not only are there up to 40 tracks in a single song (1969, people!), some tracks are double speed, or half speed to give another layer to these songs.
The difficult pieces have to be balanced out. There’s quite a couple of funny, short, foot-tap songs: ‘The Air’ is a lovely doo-wop kind of song, Sleeping in a Jar and Electric Aunt Jemima are funny ditties, Cruisin’ for Burgers quite a bit more intelligent than those, but Mr. Green Genes takes the cake. A more dark, brooding track, like Trouble Every Day off of Freak Out!
And just when you thought this album couldn’t hold any more greatness: King Kong.
A jamtrack, a live favorite, ranging from a short interlude, up to a 30 minute solo extravaganza. A short theme, and then a bunch of solo’s over a 3/8, one chord loop.
Project X deserves an extra mention. An extreme overdubbing etude. Greatly orchestrated, impressively ingenious, wonderfully written. Really one of Zappa’s greats. It’s a pity that it’s that ingenious that it couldn’t be performed live, and never went on to become a Zappa classic.
Overall this is a great record. The Mothers show everything they’ve got on this one. Only downside: sometimes it’s a bit too much, and it loses coherence.


Essential Tracks:
Uncle Meat: Main Title Theme
Dog Breath, In The Year of the Plague
Mr. Green Genes
The Air
Project X
King Kong (Part 1 and 4 if you insist)


PS. Thanks for waiting guys, took a bit longer than I anticipated, but the discussion stayed alive!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: Ultimetalhead on November 04, 2015, 03:45:38 PM
The size and scope of Uncle Meat always turned me off of it. I've only listened to it once or twice, but there's a fair deal of excellence here. King Kong, especially. What a brilliant piece.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: Mosh on November 04, 2015, 04:58:14 PM
Uncle Meat has some of Frank's best melodies. It's also probably the start of studio albums full of material that was eventually greatly improved in the live setting. Still, the original recordings hold up well enough and there's a lot of songs that have just been forgotten due to not being played or whatever. It does feel like a compilation, but I also think it represents the live Mothers better than previous albums.

The "penalty" tracks are baffling, but easy to skip. It is kind of disappointing to the uninformed listen, thinking they're getting a full length double album when in reality there's about one CD of material on there.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: Cyclopssss on November 05, 2015, 01:09:04 AM
I agree about the added material here. I saw some of the movie. A girl wearing a t-shirt rubbing herself with hamburger under the shower, delivering the same line over and over again... it must be art.

Uncle Meat as a record is great. There's a lot of socio-commentary on Uncle Meat, but not as pushy as it was on We're Only In It For The Money. And a lot of great instrumental tracks as well. Dog Breath is fantastic. Roy Estrada delivers his signature pachuco vocals here with gusto. The lyrics are something to behold: 'Fuzzy dice, bongo's in the back. My 'ship of love' is ready for attack'. Mr. Greene Genes is another great live staple. The harmonies are insane, the melodies terrific. A great audio recording of Jimmy Carl Black in 'If we'd all been living in California..' about the lack of money coming into the band, a rare glimpse of future similar audio recording use by Zappa and a glimpse into the real life of 'professional musicians' in that day and age. 'The Air' has always been one of my favourites. The lyrics are so stupendous it left me howling with laughter when I first heard them. Cruising for burgers is another fan favourite, as is King Kong, which is resplended in all its glory.

One factor that shouldn't be overlooked is not only the addiction of Ruth 'Underwood' to the band, but even more importantly her to-be-husband Ian. He added a lot to the broadening of the sound of the live mothers.

The artwork is another thing that sould be mentioned. It is fantastic. Great work by Cal Shenkel.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: Mosh on November 05, 2015, 01:33:28 AM
Ian Underwood was on WOIIFTM, I don't think he was on Ruben and the Jets though. But he does get quite the introduction on this album!

I keep forgetting Ruth is on this. It's weird, she's on this album and 200 Motels but aside from that I don't think she was a full time member yet. She's not on any other albums until Overnite Sensation with the start of the legendary 74 band.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 05, 2015, 02:54:51 AM
Ian Underwood was on WOIIFTM, I don't think he was on Ruben and the Jets though. But he does get quite the introduction on this album!

I keep forgetting Ruth is on this. It's weird, she's on this album and 200 Motels but aside from that I don't think she was a full time member yet. She's not on any other albums until Overnite Sensation with the start of the legendary 74 band.

Actually, I was reading up on her role in Zappa's discography, and she wasn't with the band for that long. Like you said, 74 was really when she became a full time member and (from the top of my head) she was gone in 76. So that's only a couple of years, but she has had a great impact on Zappa's music.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 05, 2015, 12:34:24 PM
The size and scope of Uncle Meat always turned me off of it. I've only listened to it once or twice, but there's a fair deal of excellence here. King Kong, especially. What a brilliant piece.

Yeah, that's what I was saying with it being too much at points. If it was a single 79 minute CD I don't think I'd be able to make it through.

I actually listened through the bonus pieces. Yes, to all of the movie dialogue too. There's really nothing in there that's worth checking out.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: darkshade on November 05, 2015, 05:55:31 PM
Uncle Meat is the best album from the 60s Mothers IMO. The first time I heard this, I went from laughing so hard it hurt, to being flabbergasted at the music I was hearing, and the absurdity of it all. But over time, it's beauty is revealed, as with most Zappa albums that are a little edgier, or harder to get into. It contains Zappa's first real advancement into jazz-fusion, and the music is way out there. Lots of instrumentation, this album is the most colorful one from this band. Also, original versions of quite a few live staples on this one, as already noted. Pound For A Brown, Dog Meat, King Kong, pig noises, etc...

Ian Underwood was on WOIIFTM, I don't think he was on Ruben and the Jets though. But he does get quite the introduction on this album!

I keep forgetting Ruth is on this. It's weird, she's on this album and 200 Motels but aside from that I don't think she was a full time member yet. She's not on any other albums until Overnite Sensation with the start of the legendary 74 band.

There's a lot of albums with her on it, many of them are Zappa's best albums.

The size and scope of Uncle Meat always turned me off of it. I've only listened to it once or twice, but there's a fair deal of excellence here. King Kong, especially. What a brilliant piece.

Yeah, that's what I was saying with it being too much at points. If it was a single 79 minute CD I don't think I'd be able to make it through.

I actually listened through the bonus pieces. Yes, to all of the movie dialogue too. There's really nothing in there that's worth checking out.

I did that once. Combined with the 80s bonus track, I'll never get those 35 or so minutes back...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: Orbert on November 05, 2015, 08:47:46 PM
I keep forgetting Ruth is on this. It's weird, she's on this album and 200 Motels but aside from that I don't think she was a full time member yet. She's not on any other albums until Overnite Sensation with the start of the legendary 74 band.

There's a lot of albums with her on it, many of them are Zappa's best albums.

I love Ruth.  The first Zappa/Mothers I ever heard was One Size Fits All, though it was Roxy & Elsewhere that we played over and over, so Ruth and her tuned percussion was a big part of what I loved about that version of The Mothers.  I started my own Zappa collection with Sheik Yerbouti, and Ed Mann does some great stuff on that album, so I've always associated the marimba and xylophone with Frank and The Mothers.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: Mosh on November 05, 2015, 09:12:21 PM
One Size Fits All was my first too! The tuned percussion really stuck out to me, as I was coming from more of a prog rock/metal background with a little bit of jazz. So it was a totally new sound and one I too associate with Zappa. Probably the most defining thing about his music other than the guitar.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: darkshade on November 07, 2015, 11:28:40 AM
Surprised at the lack of discussion on UM, besides Ruth. If you have a problem getting into the 60s Mothers, Uncle Meat is probably the one that can be appreciated the most.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: KevShmev on November 07, 2015, 12:06:01 PM
I'm not I said it quite like this before, but I don't have the time, money or energy to listen to every Zappa album (who does?? :lol), so I will only be contributing when it is a record I actually know.  I'm sure every record will have a "Yeah, but you need to hear this one" fan, and that is all well and good, but it won't change my mind. :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: darkshade on November 07, 2015, 05:53:04 PM
I'm not I said it quite like this before, but I don't have the time, money or energy to listen to every Zappa album (who does?? :lol), so I will only be contributing when it is a record I actually know.  I'm sure every record will have a "Yeah, but you need to hear this one" fan, and that is all well and good, but it won't change my mind. :biggrin:

Half of his albums are under 40 minutes. Instead of SDOIT for the umpteeenth time, put on some Frank ;)

Spotify? Youtube?

What I'm saying is, Yea, but you need to hear this one. No, you really do. Too many classics on Uncle Meat. You'll appreciate the later versions of King Kong, Pound For A Brown, Dog Meat, etc...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 07, 2015, 06:08:08 PM
I guess he has a point. I was never a fan of Uncle Meat, and there's still no actual need to listen to ALL of it, but you could check out the essential tracks. Of course, that's why they are essential  ;)

Anyway, I'm preparing for the next release, which should be over with soon since it's only a best of: Mothermania.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: jammindude on November 07, 2015, 10:16:25 PM
Surprised at the lack of discussion on UM, besides Ruth. If you have a problem getting into the 60s Mothers, Uncle Meat is probably the one that can be appreciated the most.

From here on out, I'm most likely going to be reading a lot more and commenting a lot less.  But I'm reading VERY intently.  I love reading about this stuff.  It lets me know what to look out for buying next.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: Mosh on November 07, 2015, 11:51:20 PM
I agree that Uncle Meat is an essential one. If you want essential Mothers, I'd say these: Freak Out, Money, Uncle Meat. Absolutely Free and the two post humous albums are very close, but I think you at least need the three I mentioned to understand the scope and sound of that lineup.

And it's not a long album at all. 76 minutes is the average length of a DT album.  :lol They're very short songs too.

But generally speaking, for a casual FZ fan I'd say there are usually just 1 or 2 essential albums per era.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #6 Uncle Meat
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 08, 2015, 08:48:26 AM
Official Release #7 'Mothermania'
(Released 03/1969)

(https://ring.cdandlp.com/themroc/photo_grande/114835115.jpg)


Background Information:
A best of. After only six albums Zappa, well actually the record company, deemed it time to release a best of.
Actually, only three albums of the earlier released albums are represented on this compilation. (Which is quite logical since Lumpy Gravy was a solo record, Ruben & The Jets already contained reworked versions of earlier songs, and Uncle Meat was only released in the same month)
If you’ve checked out the first albums, you’ve heard these tracks. Even if you’ve only checked out the earlier mentioned essential tracks, you’ve only missed 4 songs (You’re Probably Wondering Why I’m Here, Plastic People, Hungry Freaks Daddy and America Drinks and Goes Home)
A couple of songs are reworked, remixed or recut on this album, but that’s not really worth the listen.
The upside to this record is that it’s a good best of. It contains most of the greatest tracks of the earliest three actual Mothers’ records.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #7 Mothermania
Post by: Mosh on November 08, 2015, 09:50:05 AM
I've never listened to this. Always found it odd that it was cataloged under the "official" Zappa cannon. There are a couple other record label produced Best Of albums aren't there? Anyway I'll check it out tonight maybe.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #7 Mothermania
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 08, 2015, 11:21:36 AM
I've never listened to this. Always found it odd that it was cataloged under the "official" Zappa cannon. There are a couple other record label produced Best Of albums aren't there? Anyway I'll check it out tonight maybe.

It is odd. Actually Frank didn't really considered it an official release either until later. There are a couple more best of records, yes, a couple of good ones too. Maybe we'll get to that later. There's tons of un-official releases too, as if 102 wasn't enough  :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #7 Mothermania
Post by: darkshade on November 08, 2015, 07:49:07 PM
This album does feel like it's own album. Zappa once said he could re-organize all the songs on all his albums and make completely new albums, and it would work. With this album, it makes sense. And Frank actually made this album, as opposed to most other Zappa compilations. Of course the mixes are different for some tracks, too, but that also adds to the 'need' to hear this at least once if you become a hardcore Zappa fan. Mother People is here presented as the unedited version, and It Can't Happen Here is similar to the MOFO mix. Worth at least one listen, but non-essential.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #7 Mothermania
Post by: bout to crash on November 08, 2015, 10:53:37 PM
Ahhh, just dropped in to say I'm falling behind here due to being in the thick of the film festival. I have Uncle Meat but haven't listened to it in a long time. Mothermania I don't have but know all the songs.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #7 Mothermania
Post by: Mosh on November 09, 2015, 12:34:03 PM
Well I decided to give it a try. Some thoughts:

Brown Shoes Don't Make It is still the champion of Original Mothers material.

Mother People doesn't work out of context. I wonder if he just put it in there so that he could finally release the uncensored version.

Absolutely Free is surprisingly filled with perfect "greatest hits" material. There are a few other songs that aren't on this that would've worked well.

Very interesting version of Idiot Bastard Son. Totally different mix.

Overall, some of the mixes have very subtle changes that are easy to miss. I'm sure I missed a ton. Things as minor as a different guitar fill in Hungry Freaks Daddy. Other things a bit more obvious. It's cool he put something slightly different together to keep it interesting for the completionists. Wouldn't recommend to a new Zappa fan though.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #7 Mothermania
Post by: Cyclopssss on November 10, 2015, 05:27:35 AM
Ahhh, just dropped in to say I'm falling behind here due to being in the thick of the film festival. I have Uncle Meat but haven't listened to it in a long time. Mothermania I don't have but know all the songs.

Dammit, Jackie! Stop slacking off!  :loser:
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #7 Mothermania
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 13, 2015, 11:57:03 AM
So, I'm diving into Hot Rats. Write up coming in the next couple of days. I really forgot how big of a leap this is in terms of sound. It sounds NOTHING like Mothermania, or any other Mothers release.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #7 Mothermania
Post by: Cyclopssss on November 13, 2015, 01:08:14 PM
Hot Rats is where Frank got Serious (or, even more serious) about the music. It´s a fantastic album.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #7 Mothermania
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 13, 2015, 01:19:30 PM
Hot Rats is where Frank got Serious (or, even more serious) about the music. It´s a fantastic album.

Can't really agree with you on that last bit though. But that's too come  :D
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #7 Mothermania
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 15, 2015, 09:31:26 AM
Official Release #8 'Hot Rats'
(Released 10/1969)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/08_HOTRATS.jpg)


Background Information:
So in 1969 Zappa and the Mothers were asked to play a small Jazz tour on the East Coast. Backstage in South Carolina, in a joint with ‘useless’ equipment for them to use, he saw Duke Ellington begging the booker 10 dollars advance, just to get round.
Suddenly it hit him, he wasn’t going to continue to pay 10 musicians a salary, 200 dollars a week, every week, ánd pay for touring costs playing the music he wanted to play.
Funny thing is that that is the story Zappa wrote in The Real Frank Zappa Book. Don Preston reacted in Zappa: A Biography: ‘That’s not what happened. A lot of stuff in that book is bullshit. It was just his imagination.’ According to Preston Zappa couldn’t handle the fact that the audience responded more to improvisations and the visual aspect of the show, and less to his complicated compositions. (Add to that, that a lot of friction came from the fact that he couldn’t pay everybody their salary, and still he seemed to just keep on hiring additional musicians)
Though he broke up with the Mothers, he kept one: Ian Underwood. The inside of the album pictures Zappa and Underwood as the only two ‘band members’, all other musicians were hired guns, it appears.

The Album Itself:
This album is a lot more Jazz, or Jazz rock oriented. And while, according to Preston at least, he wanted less improvisation and more composition in his music, half this record is improvisation. The album could be split in short compositional pieces, and long improvisational pieces, the shorter songs being Peachen en Regalia, Little Umbrella’s and It Must be a Camel. The other three songs have really extended solo’s.
For the CD version, Zappa added 4 minutes of solo’s to The Gumbo Variations, and one could argue if the song needed more.
This album was the first Zappa record for which he used a 16 track mixer, making it way easier to overdub and keep piling on extra parts. That’s why Ian Underwood could be credited to play ‘all clarinets, all saxes’, though you hear at least a couple of each.
In terms of sound, next to even more overdubs than he was already doing earlier, the half speed recordings remain in Zappa’s musical vocabulary. Uncle Meat had a lot of that, and while it’s more tastefully applied on this album, there’s still quite of lot of it.
Another notable thing is the inclusion of Jean-Luc Ponty on this album, someone who would work together with Zappa for a couple of years. Ponty even recorded an entire album of Zappa’s music released in May 1970, called King Kong, which featured George Duke. Ponty was already playing with Duke, and the three of them would be quite the team for years to come.


Essential Tracks:
Peaches en Regalia
Willie The Pimp
Son of Mr. Green Genes


Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: bout to crash on November 15, 2015, 12:30:12 PM
Thanks for sharing all the interesting history! I fucking love this album. Ponty is badass. I actually have that album he did on vinyl.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 15, 2015, 01:15:13 PM
I think it's quite an uncommon opinion, but this album doesn't do much for me. Maybe leaving out The Gumbo Variations would help, I'll have to try that.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #7 Mothermania
Post by: Mosh on November 15, 2015, 05:22:18 PM
For the CD version, Zappa added 4 minutes of solo’s to The Gumbo Variations, and one could argue if the song needed more.

One could argue that, but they would be wrong.  ;D They actually reverted back to the original Gumbo for the 2012 master, as well as a completely different mix, so for those new to this album I highly recommend both versions. And if your only experience with Hot Rats is the 2012 master or the vinyl version, give the original Ryko CD a try.

Anyway, Hot Rats is what propelled me into a hardcore Zappa fan. I still remember the day I saw the CD in the record store. I was really only familiar with the 74 band at this point, having heard Overnite and One Size Fits All, maybe one or two others. I recognized the title so I figured it might've been one of his more popular albums. Little did I know I had just struck Zappa gold.

This was a moment of "perfect album at the perfect time". I had just begun to really warm up to Jazz, particularly fusion. I was starting to listen to the likes of Weather Report and Miles Davis' more fusion driven stuff such as Bitches Brew. This album really linked Rock and Jazz, so it was very transitional to me. Suddenly I had a better understanding of what was going on in those Weather Report albums. This album brings a lot of memories of a very exciting period of musical discovery for me. So it always puts me in a really great mood.

I love the extended jams on this. You get hints of Zappa's guitar playing on the original Mothers albums but this album really propels him into guitar hero territory. He wasn't the most technically advanced guitarist, even for his time, but what he had that many of the (as he would put it) stunt guitar players lacked: a distinct voice. He had a really unique way of phrasing, lots of odd rhythmic groupings and a predominantly bluesy but equally modal style that nobody else really did. I actually think he's underrated as a player.

Ian Underwood is great too. He had the wackiness akin to Motorhead Sherwood (or probably more accurate to compare it to Eric Dolphy) but the chops to back it up. Big influence on my own sax playing in high school. The solo in Gumbo Variations is one of the absolute highlights of the album.

So yea, love this album. One of the best. Very revolutionary too, with the 16 track recorder and all. One of the first albums to use such a machine. Plus it's a very early example of jazz fusion. The style didn't really explode until a year or so later.

BTW, Jean Luc Ponty only appears on one song: It Must Be a Camel. And he isn't featured prominently enough IMO. The rest of the violin parts (including the Gumbo Variations solo) were played by Don "Sugarcane" Harris, who was a great player in his own right. He has some stellar moments on the next two Mothers albums, but I'm getting ahead of myself. One of the major misses of Zappa's career is that we never got a proper release featuring Ponty. There are a couple post humuous things I think, but I'm not sure what the quality is on those. He was one of the greats and adding him to the already magnificient 74 band was just awesomeness overload.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Orbert on November 15, 2015, 05:38:10 PM
This is one of my go-to albums from Frank and company.  I can always put this one or Roxy & Elsewhere on and I'll be fine.

I used to make these silly tapes, supposed to be a radio disk jockey, recorded on my cheesy Sears all-in-one stereo I got when I was 12.  I had a microphone, and could mix that with what was on the turntable.  My theme song was "Peaches en Regalia".  I love that tune.  Made these tapes with me blabbing and playing mostly prog tunes and talking about them, and passed them around to my friends.  They seemed to like them.  I was a prog ambassador to my high school.  I remember playing this album and Sheik Yerbouti on the stereo in the band room at school.

Another album where Frank played with the mixing and stuff when he made the CD.  Mine, anyway.  Hopefully the original mixes are on CD somewhere now.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Mosh on November 15, 2015, 09:12:25 PM
I'm pretty sure the new 2012 master is the original mix.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: bout to crash on November 15, 2015, 11:25:20 PM
Mosh, totally agree with your post. I got this one at a very jazzy period in my life, so fell in love with it instantly and it always puts me in a great mood as well. I recently put it in my car on a busy work day to de-stress and rocked the fuck out  :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: sneakyblueberry on November 16, 2015, 03:41:06 AM
Aside from Peaches, I never really dug the rest of it.  Peaches is probably one of the best compositions of all time tho.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 16, 2015, 03:49:32 AM
Aside from Peaches, I never really dug the rest of it.  Peaches is probably one of the best compositions of all time tho.

I was starting to get the feeling that I was the only one.  :lol

I like the sound of the album, but it's a lot less diverse than earlier Zappa records, with of course a notable exception of Ruben. So that's possibly why I love the first track, really like the second, and like the third, but after that I lose interest more and more. I'll try starting halfway the record. And I'll try to hunt down a good vinyl version one day.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Cyclopssss on November 16, 2015, 04:35:38 AM
Well, Nihil, we might not see eye to eye on Hot Rats, but when I bought the vinyl version of this record, I expected much but not the great musicianship and improvisation displayed on most of the tracks.
The only track that sticks out (not like a sore thumb, but musically) is Willie the Pimp. Always a live favourite of mine, but somehow the humorous track sounds out of place here. Zappa used different drummers and bassplayers on this record, all of which sounds very refreshing  to me. Especially the drumwork is fantastic overall. Peaches en regalia is off course the standout well known track, but the other compositions are all great too. You already mentioned a lot of Jazz influences, but I would say there's a lot of blues as well. I see Hot Rats as a precursor for later releases like Grand Wazoo, Waka/Jawakka and Studio Tan.   
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Ultimetalhead on November 16, 2015, 05:29:56 PM
I used to not like Hot Rats at all barring Peaches which I thought was a nice little tune and little more. Now I love Hot Rats all the way through and Peaches is easily top 5 in Zappa's entire body of work. What a magnificent piece. The guitar/flute unisons are so very pretty, and that build up to the sax run into the jammy, rocking section is fucking mint.

The rest of the album is great, but Zappa completely shot his entire wad on Peaches so it's kind of tough to follow, IMO. Green Genes is probably the next best offering.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Mosh on November 16, 2015, 10:02:07 PM
I had a similar issue with Hot Rats at first. I enjoyed the whole album but Peaches was so good that nothing could live up to that. It's still one of his essential pieces IMO. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Podaar on November 18, 2015, 06:43:07 AM
Hot Rats is fantastic! The first (chronologically speaking) album that I love beginning to end.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: darkshade on November 18, 2015, 11:33:29 AM
Classic Zappa album, one of his most popular, and accessible. A great first or second album to check out for noobs. I also mostly paid attention to Peaches for a while when new to Frank, never really getting into the rest of the album like I did with Peaches, but Hot Rats grows on you, and gets better every listen. The 2012 CD version is the analog mix, similar to the vinyl version, if it's from RYKO, it's the 80s mix, which is the one I heard first, and both are worth hearing, both are like 2 different albums.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 18, 2015, 02:29:35 PM
Classic Zappa album, one of his most popular, and accessible. A great first or second album to check out for noobs. I also mostly paid attention to Peaches for a while when new to Frank, never really getting into the rest of the album like I did with Peaches, but Hot Rats grows on you, and gets better every listen. The 2012 CD version is the analog mix, similar to the vinyl version, if it's from RYKO, it's the 80s mix, which is the one I heard first, and both are worth hearing, both are like 2 different albums.

I got the Ryko version, makes me wanna have the vinyl version even more!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Cyclopssss on November 19, 2015, 02:13:56 AM
I have the vinyl version. Get it. The sound is gorgeous.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 19, 2015, 01:46:09 PM
So while searching for a good copy of Hot Rats on vinyl, I found Jean Luc Ponty Plays The Music Of Frank Zappa (JLPPTMOFZ) record. Somehow I never checked that one out, and although it's not going in the official Discography Discussion, cause it's not an official Zappa release, it really is worth checking out. The version of King Kong is really really rocking, great to hear George Duke play that one. (And man that piano solo on Music for...  :eek)
Listening to this record though, I can't understand why I like this instantly, and Hot Rats is a difficult one for me. Maybe it's the low expectations vs. the stamp of it being one of the best Zappa records. There are loads of solo's on this one too.

One big difference to me though is the diverseness in dynamics. The solo's go somewhere, the band follows, instead of just continuing a groove. (I'm trying to find things, it's not that that's the case all the time on Hot Rats)

Anyways, really enjoyable record, recommended!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Mosh on November 19, 2015, 05:15:11 PM
Love that Ponty album. The highlight for me is America Drinks and Goes Home.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: KevShmev on November 21, 2015, 05:27:32 PM
Hot Rats is awesome.  I believe this was the first Zappa CD I actually bought, IIRC, and I was won over right away.  Fantastic from start to finish.  Every track is gold, Jerry, gold! :tup :tup
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 22, 2015, 05:23:50 AM
Official Release #9 'Burnt Weeny Sandwich'
(Released 02/1970)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/09_BURNT-WEENY.jpg)


Background Information:
One of two albums of ‘Mothers left over material’. The next one ‘Weasels Ripped My Flesh’ focusses mostly on live material, this one is mostly about the leftover studio recordings. Both albums do have both live and studio tracks though.
Burnt Weeny Sandwich was also the name of the movie Zappa was working on at the time. Which, as you might’ve guessed, never really saw the light of day.


The Album Itself:
This one is quite the trip, even more than other Mothers’ albums. This one not only has all sorts of musical styles mixed together, but the composition also differ in age.
The album is constructed in a peculiar way too. It starts and ends with a tap-your-foot B side, tracks 2-5 are really a couple of (quite beautiful) short compositions with an extended guitar solo in them.
So that only leaves Holiday in Berlin, Aybe Sea, and Little House I Used To Live In.
Starting off with the first one. It really sounds like this one is right off of Uncle Meat, with the overdubbed double speed percussion and the clever arrangements. It originated as part of a Zappa stage production, which has a couple of names, but mainly called ‘Progress?’ (released on Ahead Of Their Time #61), which was performed throughout ’68. This version even uses the same recordings, as you can hear on Ahead of Their Time. The main theme of Holiday In Berlin was reused on 200 Motels (#13).
Aybe Sea is another short composed piece, like the ones Zappa could write all day. Ian Underwood’s amazing piano work is noticeable throughout this tune (and the entire album for that matter). The guitar overdubs is what makes this tune stand out from other Zappa compositions of that time.
Talking of piano work, Ian absolutely shines on the intro of Little House. It sets up the main theme perfectly. Most noticeable in this one is the use of odd time signatures. Mostly Zappa’s way of writing was in 4/4, with the odd jam in 5/8 or 7/8 every now and them. Those jam’s always stayed in that time signature though. The interesting thing about Little House is the way the band could be playing in 7/8 with the melody being in 11/8.
Jean Luc Ponty has a wonderful solo in this track, and so does Ian Underwood (again). The track could’ve done with a bit of trimming too, or maybe an actual end, instead of cutting the applause of a live recording.


Essential Tracks:
The Little House I Used To Live In
Holiday In Berlin, Full-Blown
Track 2-5 (Let's call it Igor's Suite)



Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Ultimetalhead on November 22, 2015, 03:56:09 PM
BWS is a solid album. It loses a few points for me for lacking cohesion (the best FZ albums for me feel like a complete piece rather than a collection of unrelated songs). That said, it's full of nice melodies and quirky Zappa goodness.

And honestly, you can copy/paste my response for the next two albums as well. :lol These three albums all tend to run together for me a little bit. Not a lot of major standout moments. But that's okay. We're about to get into some seriously legendary shit.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Orbert on November 22, 2015, 05:30:50 PM
This is another early one that I never filled in.  A friend of mine named Paul had a lot of Zappa, including most of the ones I didn't have, so it was always a treat listening to Zappa with Paul.  I remember listening to Burnt Weeny Sandwich at least once or twice, and it's great.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: darkshade on November 22, 2015, 10:03:30 PM
This album and the follow up, Weasels Ripped My Flesh, are like The Beauty and the Beast; Burnt Weeny Sandwich is the 'Beauty'.

For the Zappa noob: Live albums are just as, and sometimes more, essential than Zappa's "studio" albums. Just about all of Frank's albums released in his lifetime are studio albums, due to overdubs, splicing in studio tracks with live tracks, unique compositions, etc...

Lots of themes from very early in Frank's career (pre-Mothers) appear here. This album, though, continues the explorations into jazz that started with Uncle Meat and Hot Rats at the same time, but this is still a Mothers album, and while it's not the most essential Zappa album, you can't go wrong with this one, especially if you appreciate Zappa's complex-prog instrumental side more. To me, aside from the book-ending doo-wop songs, and the epic finale piece "Little House I Use to Live In", the middle tunes on the album all flow into each other and feel like one long suite.

Underrated album in Zappa's massive discography. I recommend this one if you haven't heard it yet. The "bootleg" album, Electric Aunt Jemima, is a good companion album to BWS (Similar vibe, different songs, mostly instrumental, similar sound quality)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 24, 2015, 03:06:08 AM
Burnt Weeny Sandwich seems to be the least discussable album thus far. After listening to this one, and seeing it in context with Hot Rats I was surprised by Little House, how much it resembles both the Mothers, and Hot Rats.
Any thoughts on that?
And what do you guys think of releasing two albums full of unreleased material after the band split up?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Cyclopssss on November 24, 2015, 03:16:08 AM
Man, I'm having to dig deep on this one. I've got it somewhere. This one probably shows off the musical abillity of the original Mothers the best.
Musically this is a solid cd. The two coversongs are performed well, I especially liked Valary. House I used to live in made my jaw drop a couple of times. Great playing and the ending is great.
I was somewhat puzzled by the altercation afterward with the audience member who demande that 'the uniforms should leave the building' only to be rebuked by Zappa that 'everyone in this building is wearing a uniform, and don't you forget it.'

I liked the idea that Frank had so much material lying around that he was able to release two full cd's worth. That was the positive, I love BWS, I absolutely abhorr, or HATE Weasels ripped my flesh! Godddd!
But I guess it was worth the layover period before one of the greatest Mothers ensembles in existance took center stage.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: darkshade on November 24, 2015, 05:20:56 AM

But I guess it was worth the layover period before one of the greatest Mothers ensembles in existance took center stage.

Flo and Eddie? Wazoo band?

I think everyone forgets there's still 3-5 albums before the classic mid-70s band albums.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 24, 2015, 05:25:27 AM

But I guess it was worth the layover period before one of the greatest Mothers ensembles in existance took center stage.

Flo and Eddie? Wazoo band?

I think everyone forgets there's still 3-5 albums before the classic mid-70s band albums.

I loooove the Flo and Eddie stuff! Already looking forward to that.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Cyclopssss on November 24, 2015, 06:22:37 AM
I meant Flo and Eddie! Love that period. All in the future, though.....
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: jammindude on November 24, 2015, 06:24:12 AM
Still just following along and loving it!   Keep em coming!!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: darkshade on November 24, 2015, 09:44:31 AM
I meant Flo and Eddie! Love that period. All in the future, though.....

I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to the 73/74 lineup, as the Flo n Eddie period is not considered that great by a good chunk of the fan base. I like that period myself, but I can't say those albums are my go-to when I have a Zappa craving (Except Chunga's Revenge, but that album is more in line with the Hot Rats/King Kong/Burnt Weeny Sandwich albums prior. Can't wait for that album.)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: darkshade on November 24, 2015, 09:56:00 AM
Burnt Weeny Sandwich seems to be the least discussable album thus far. After listening to this one, and seeing it in context with Hot Rats I was surprised by Little House, how much it resembles both the Mothers, and Hot Rats.
Any thoughts on that?
And what do you guys think of releasing two albums full of unreleased material after the band split up?

I think BWS is a generally underrated album in the Zappa canon. It's overshadowed by its brother album Weasels, what with that artwork; Hot Rats is his most popular album besides a couple of later ones, earlier Mothers albums are more in your face (AF, WOIIFTM) so I think the timing and what surrounds it overshadows the albums popularity. Also, the music. If you don't like the doo-wop aspect of Zappa, (which I find great, and also hilarious) you're already turned off by this album. Also, the middle songs are fine, but nothing 'too' crazy. Frank would make better versions of this type of instrumental prog rock jazz fusion, but it's pleasant to listen to. The epic at the end is great, I don't know why more people don't talk about it. It's great classic 70s prog rock, with a heavy dose of jazz-fusion.

To answer your last question, I think it's great, and shows how much material he already had in 1970. He never really stopped.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Podaar on November 24, 2015, 09:56:21 AM
I really enjoy "Theme" through "Little House" but the rest of the album is a bit of a miss for me. I don't listen to this album very much but I usually enjoy it when I do.

And honestly, you can copy/paste my response for the next two albums as well. :lol

Ditto.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 24, 2015, 09:56:21 AM
Still just following along and loving it!   Keep em coming!!

Thanks for the kind words!


I meant Flo and Eddie! Love that period. All in the future, though.....

I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to the 73/74 lineup, as the Flo n Eddie period is not considered that great by a good chunk of the fan base. I like that period myself, but I can't say those albums are my go-to when I have a Zappa craving (Except Chunga's Revenge, but that album is more in line with the Hot Rats/King Kong/Burnt Weeny Sandwich albums prior. Can't wait for that album.)

Haha, I love how we differ in Zappa taste! But we'll discuss that later. Next one coming in a couple of days!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: darkshade on November 24, 2015, 10:05:32 AM
Still just following along and loving it!   Keep em coming!!

Thanks for the kind words!


I meant Flo and Eddie! Love that period. All in the future, though.....

I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to the 73/74 lineup, as the Flo n Eddie period is not considered that great by a good chunk of the fan base. I like that period myself, but I can't say those albums are my go-to when I have a Zappa craving (Except Chunga's Revenge, but that album is more in line with the Hot Rats/King Kong/Burnt Weeny Sandwich albums prior. Can't wait for that album.)

Haha, I love how we differ in Zappa taste! But we'll discuss that later. Next one coming in a couple of days!

I love it all, but I obviously have my preferences. I initially got into Zappa for the jazzier side of his music, but eventually realized I loved everything. Also depends on my mood or time of day. Just about all these albums so far have been listened to at night. For some reason, most albums recorded prior to 1972 is generally listened to at night. I think I like my madness in the dark for full effect.

It's been a while since I've listened to any Flo n Eddie albums, so my opinions on them might change.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Mosh on November 24, 2015, 07:19:46 PM
Burnt Weeny Sandwich seems to be the least discussable album thus far.

For me, it's one of those albums that I've dug so deep into that there are a lot of things to talk about but I have a hard time giving a focused comment.  :lol

It's one of my favorites. One of those albums I didn't get the first time but something about it drew me in and eventually I grew to appreciate it. I love both of the doo wop tunes, but the highlight of the album for me is Holiday In Berlin. The way it goes from soft to harsh, very harmonic to very dissonant. It really shows Frank's ability to seamlessly move from ugly to beautiful in his piecess.

Little House is such a good jam. It is definitely the missing link between the Mothers and Hot Rats. It helps that it has Don Harris soloing, since he played such a prominent role in Hot Rats.

I suppose this is the first major example of Frank compliling various leftover material into one album and managing to make it all sound coherrent. This would become one of his trademarks. It becomes increasingly obvious through the discography that Zappa didn't care for recording in the studio. It eventually got to the point that you couldn't hear a single studio recorded song without some sort of live track mixed in.

I like that this album shows the Mothers strength in the studio, while Weasels focuses more on the live side. I usually like to play them back to back.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on November 24, 2015, 07:43:46 PM
I can't remember how many times I've played BWS on my car stereo, the album sounds so good. Love Holiday In Berlin so much!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: darkshade on November 26, 2015, 09:50:49 AM
Forgot to mention that Burnt Weeny Sandwich from the 2012 UMe reissues has superior sound to the old RYKO's. It's the analog mix.

The next album, Weasels, is also the analog mix on the UMe 2012 release, so it has the superior sound; but with that album, the RYKO one has more music, so both are essential.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Mosh on November 26, 2015, 10:27:47 AM
I haven't heard the 2012 Weasels. Planning on doing so for this thread. I love the extra music on the ryko but the mix has never quite sat right with me.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: darkshade on November 26, 2015, 10:40:33 AM
I haven't heard the 2012 Weasels. Planning on doing so for this thread. I love the extra music on the ryko but the mix has never quite sat right with me.

I was never thrilled with WRMF, but I liked the 2012 UMe version immediately, and appreciate the album more.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Nihil-Morari on November 26, 2015, 12:13:24 PM
I haven't heard the 2012 Weasels. Planning on doing so for this thread. I love the extra music on the ryko but the mix has never quite sat right with me.

I was never thrilled with WRMF, but I liked the 2012 UMe version immediately, and appreciate the album more.

Ah didn't know that, will check it out!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: bout to crash on November 29, 2015, 02:20:29 AM
I don't listen to this album very much but I usually enjoy it when I do.


This. It's a fun album, and looove Little House. Listened to it today on vinyl, finally :)

Still just following along and loving it!   Keep em coming!!

Also this  :tup
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: darkshade on November 30, 2015, 02:18:34 PM
Next one coming in a couple of days!

Getting anxious to just put Weasels on.  ;)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on November 30, 2015, 02:33:38 PM
Holiday in Berlin, little house alone sells the record  :metal
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Nihil-Morari on December 01, 2015, 07:13:12 AM
Next one coming in a couple of days!

Getting anxious to just put Weasels on.  ;)

Yeah do so! I'll be finished later today! (Had a busy weekend, my first DJ gig ever  :lol )
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: darkshade on December 01, 2015, 09:25:42 AM
Next one coming in a couple of days!

Getting anxious to just put Weasels on.  ;)

Yeah do so! I'll be finished later today! (Had a busy weekend, my first DJ gig ever  :lol )

I was thinking of listening to the analog version from he 2012 CD, then the RYKO one when we get to it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #9 Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Post by: Nihil-Morari on December 01, 2015, 11:38:16 AM
Official Release #10 'Weasels Ripped My Flesh'
(Released 08/1970)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/10_WRMF.jpg)


Background Information:
The second of the two ‘excess mothers-material’ album. Originally part of ‘The History and Collected Improvisations of The Mothers Of Invention’, which was supposed to be a double album of this exact material. As stated, there are indeed two versions of this album, the LP and the latest version being the same, original version, and the Ryko CD version has three minutes extra in Didja Get Any Onya. (Those three minutes of music is also known as ‘Charles Ives’ on later Zappa releases, and as ‘The Blimp’ on Captain Beefheart’s Trout Mask Replica)
This album, in contrast to Burnt Weeny Sandwich, focusses way more on improvisation, live recordings and a harsher, more extreme side of Zappa’s music.



The Album Itself:
Side one consists nearly only of all out free-jam tracks: the opener Didja Get Any Onya, Prelude To… (a tribute to Debussy’s ‘Apres-midi d’une faune’), almost all of Toads of the Short Forest (apart from that beautiful intro) and Get A Little (which can serve as a preview of Zappa’s later guitar-only albums).
Directly From The Heart To You is a Little Richard cover, recorded during the sessions of Hot Rats, just as the intro to Toads.

Side two is a bit more clever. The hommage to Eric Dolphy, and Dwarf Nebula both intertwine amazing composition with free-jazz like improvisations. The composed parts are really a highlight of this phase in Zappa’s music.
My Guitar Wants To Kill Your Mama was actually a radio friendly song, and both Oh No and The Orange County Lumber Truck were Mother’s classics. The album closes with a live ‘tune’. Two minutes of ear deafening noise, played live by 9 people making as much noise as they could on their own instrument.


Essential Tracks:
The Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue
Dwarf Nebula Processional March & Dwarf Nebula


Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on December 02, 2015, 05:25:32 PM
Love this album, the improv is fantastic too!  :metal
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: bout to crash on December 02, 2015, 07:14:03 PM
Loove this one. Haven't listened in a while, will get to that soon.

Note: I have a Weasels shirt that I've worn to a few shows and it has now been complimented by both Steven Wilson and Marco Minnemann  :heart
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: jammindude on December 02, 2015, 07:27:38 PM
Still loving the reading!   And I had to chime in and say that this thread is directly responsible for me picking up Uncle Meat in my latest CD haul from Amazon.  (the others are IQ's Road of Bones, SW's Insurgentes, and R40 Live box set).   

Haven't listened to it yet, but it's in my queue. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: jammindude on December 03, 2015, 09:22:39 PM
Always wanted to get this album based on "My Guitar..." being one of my all time favorite Zappa songs, but it sounds like the rest of the album may be a tougher listen.

Listened to Uncle Meat today.   King Kong is amazing.   The movie excerpts were just a trip  :rollin not sure how often I'll re-spin those, but they were funny.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: darkshade on December 04, 2015, 04:16:28 PM
This album is a weird one, by Zappa standards at least. Whereas BWS was Beauty, Weasel is the Beast. Unfortunately, this album really feels like a bunch of leftovers, whereas BWS felt more unified in a central theme, musically and conceptually. Weasels has some harsh music, especially at the end, but there's some jewels like Toad Forest, My Guitar Wants to Kill Your Mama, and Oh No/Orange Country Lumber Truck. We get more fusion, too, though more abstract, in the Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue.

Not an album for newcomers, maybe after getting your first dozen FZ albums.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: Nihil-Morari on December 06, 2015, 11:18:24 AM
Always wanted to get this album based on "My Guitar..." being one of my all time favorite Zappa songs, but it sounds like the rest of the album may be a tougher listen.

Listened to Uncle Meat today.   King Kong is amazing.   The movie excerpts were just a trip  :rollin not sure how often I'll re-spin those, but they were funny.

The movie excerpts are, well, yeah, they weren't necessary, to say it kindly.

I'm moving on to Chunga, never really checked that one out myself, just glossed over it I guess, so I have a lot of listening and reading to do!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: jammindude on December 06, 2015, 11:47:01 AM
If I make another FZ MP3 disc for the car (and I will) I will most likely not include the movie excerpts.   But I probably will leave in "Tengo Na Minchia Tanta"
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: Mosh on December 06, 2015, 04:06:28 PM
Since this is an album I've listened to many times, I decided for the discussion I'd try get a fresh spin on it and listen to the 2012 mix. The difference was clear instantly. It's a bit more bass heavy and less thin than the ryko. Less tiring on the ears, much more warm. Drums sound fantastic, I feel like you get better separation between the two drummers.  Not sure if I like that they reverted Didja Get Any Onya back to the non extended version. Besides that this might be my go to mix from now on.

Anyway, this album is the perfect way to close Zappa's first chapter. It kinda covers it all while giving you a glimpse at the live show in a way that was never captured on record before. It's sequenced perfectly too. Going from Didja to Directly From My Heart was a really great idea. It really slaps you in the face with how diverse this first band could be. And of course, one of my favorite moments of Zappa's career is the run from Oh No to Weasels Ripped My Flesh. 3 very different tracks making a perfect grand finale for The Mothers.

Only song that doesn't really do it for me is My Guitar... Eric Dolphy Memorial is a cool tune but can be tiring if I'm not in the right mood.

And btw, for those who aren't familiar with Dolphy, check out Out To Lunch ASAP. He was one of the Jazz greats and Zappa had already paid homage to him by including him on the infamous Freak Out list. The melody to Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue itself is written in Dolphy's improv style, he was very well known for those odd interval jumps. It's said that Dolphy got his style by learning Charlie Parker solos and changing the octaves on random notes and phrases. Unfortunately, he died young and had a very short career.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tnPkQufnZY
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: darkshade on December 09, 2015, 07:29:40 AM
The 2012 UMe CD is one of those cases where it sounds a lot better than older CD issues, but for completionists, having both the older RYKO and 2012 UMe versions is essential for the extra music. The title track sounds the same on either version  :lol

Bring on the FLo n Eddie era.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: darkshade on December 09, 2015, 12:19:55 PM
Also, I'm pretty sure that at this point in the discography, Frank stopped using acoustic guitars and stuck to electric only. Chunga's might be the last album to feature acoustic guitar, but I haven't listened to it in a while.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: Mosh on December 09, 2015, 01:31:49 PM
Sofa on the OSFA album uses acoustic guitars. But yea, it's very rare for Zappa, in fact hearing an acoustic guitar on a Zappa album usually sounds pretty weird to me.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: darkshade on December 09, 2015, 05:27:14 PM
Sofa on the OSFA album uses acoustic guitars. But yea, it's very rare for Zappa, in fact hearing an acoustic guitar on a Zappa album usually sounds pretty weird to me.

Listening now, sounds like electric guitar, maybe with an acoustic guitar effects pedal or something like that. I've heard that sound on other FZ tunes. I'm pretty sure I recall reading an article about Frank's music and the author mentioned something about 1970 being the last year for an FZ album to feature any acoustic guitar, which was rare already at that point.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: Cyclopssss on December 10, 2015, 01:11:01 AM
Aren't there accoustic guitars used on Joe's Garage? (pt 2, I think).
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: Nihil-Morari on December 13, 2015, 08:04:42 AM
Official Release #11 'Chunga's Revenge'
(Released 10/1970)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/11_CHUNGAS.jpg)


Background Information:
Officially only the second Zappa solo album (after Hot Rats) and the first album to include Flo and Eddie, a.k.a. The Phlorescent Leech and Eddie. The two singers became famous as The Turtles (with worldwide hit Happy Together) and when that band disbanded Zappa, who already knew the guys, asked them to join the band.
Zappa stated that this band was ‘one of the most talented group of individuals he’d ever had’, according to Mark Volman.
This band still had Ian Underwood in it as Zappa’s main sideman in those days, but with George Duke, Jeff Simmons and Aynsley Dunbar a couple of other legendary Zappa bandmates made their appearance too.
Although this was such a great band, there are hardly any studio recordings available. Zappa was changing in the way he recorded. From now on (except for a short while due to Zappa being in a wheelchair, but more on that later) his main way of recording would be recording live, and adding overdubs in the studio.

The Album Itself:
This is another eclectic combination of tracks. A couple of guitar solo’s, a live improv, a blues track, a jazz track and a couple of pop songs. The only thing that really binds this album together is the band.
The album starts of with an extended guitar solo called Transylvania Boogie, recorded in a studio (The Record Plant, later featured on more Zappa albums) in march 1970.
Road Ladies shows the direction Zappa wanted the show to go in. Fun, great vocals and above all, very entertaining.
Twenty Small Cigars is a Hot Rats outtake, and a great interlude on this albums. The fade-out though is a shame, makes you realize that it’s nothing more than an interlude.
The Nancy & Mary Music is a live outtake of the jam bit in King Kong. That track could last up to half an hour back in the late 60’s.

Side two is a more pop-oriented side. Apart from the title track and The Clap, the four other tracks are poppy tunes. Tell Me You Love Me, and Sharleena would become live favorites, both featuring on a couple of tours, played by different bands.
The Clap is a solo track by Frank himself, in every way. He plays all the drums and other percussion on this track. Chunga’s Revenge is an extended violin/guitar solo, and a really wonderful one. Later this would become the concert opener, giving the band the time to set up the mood, then Frank would come on stage and solo away.


Essential Tracks:
Road Ladies
Tell Me You Love Me
Chunga’s Revenge
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #10 Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Post by: Cyclopssss on December 14, 2015, 05:19:30 AM
Chunga's Revenge was another transitional album, I think. As Hot Rats was his first 'solo' album (although, technically, Lumpy Gravy was something of a solo record as well), Chunga is billed as being his second. Off course, it was nothing but that. Musician-wise, Frank was laying the foundation for the second legendary Mother's line-up with illuminaries like Aynsley Dunbar, Jeff Simmons and the first appearances of George Duke.
Mucially, Chunga's Revenge is something of a hodge-podge with on the one hand some remnants of the Hot Rats like instrumental sessions with great improvisations, fantastic guitar playing in the likes of Transylvanian Boogie, Twenty Small Cigars and The Clap. On the other hand there's the first tastes of what would be the new musical style for the next installment of the 'comedy-rock' generation Mothers of Invention, with songs like Would you go all the way, Road ladies, Sharleena and Rudy wants to buy yez a drink, about the strange union rules in the States. It's also a first taste of the vocal stylings of The Fluorescent Leach. (i.e. Flo and Eddie), stylings that would prove to fit the music of FZ very well. Frank had finally found his vehicle to excercise his bizarre and unique type of humour.

With again some great inner sleeve artwork from the legendary Cal Schenkel, Chunga's Revenge is a first taste of what's to come. And what was to come was Great.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: Nihil-Morari on December 14, 2015, 06:56:19 AM
Totally agree with you. It's again a filler album, I guess that's why I don't listen that often to albums like Burnt Weeny, Weasels and this one. I could make a nice single CD out of those three though, I think.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: Mosh on December 16, 2015, 12:22:12 PM
Chunga's Revenge is a cool album. Definitely not essential or one I go for often, but I always greatly enjoy it whenever I do. It's definitely transitional, overall I'd say it's a taste of things to come. The bulk of it is a preview to 200 Motels, from the liner notes:
Quote
All the vocals on this album were a preview of the story from 200 MOTELS. Coming. Soon. Near. You.


In a way it feels like a compilation of leftover material that didn't have any place anywhere else, Zappa had a few of those. There's a bit of Hot Rats sounding stuff, stuff that reminds us of the Original Mothers, and the Flo and Eddie stuff. All periods that are better represented elsewhere, but this album still never fails to put me in a great mood.

Anyway, I love the Flo and Eddie era. The humor is fun and they did a lot of interesting things musically. Some classics in there for sure, especially later on. Sharleena is a great song.

Chunga's Revenge (the song) is definitely a classic. Of the two solos I actually prefer Ian Underwood's saxophone solo with the wah pedal. Sinister!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: Nihil-Morari on December 16, 2015, 02:57:54 PM
Fillmore East is next. Like I thought, Chunga isn't that interesting to discuss, apparently. Fillmore will be the last before christmas break. Got a couple of gigs, and I'm going away for a week of so. 200 Motels will be the first album of 2016! The pace so far has been roughly one album a week, that should mean we're finishing this one around September 2017  :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: Cyclopssss on December 17, 2015, 12:59:08 AM
LOL, you've got your work cut out for ya! Fillmore is fantastic. Some great stories to be told about that one.   :tup
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: Podaar on December 17, 2015, 08:02:35 AM
I haven't contributed to the last two record discussions not because I don't like them (because I really do) but more because I don't have anything new to contribute.

I really enjoy "Theme" through "Little House" but the rest of the album is a bit of a miss for me. I don't listen to this album very much but I usually enjoy it when I do.

And honestly, you can copy/paste my response for the next two albums as well. :lol

Ditto.

I'm still reading and enjoying the comments by those who are more familiar with these works.  :tup
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: Nihil-Morari on December 17, 2015, 08:34:37 AM
I haven't contributed to the last two record discussions not because I don't like them (because I really do) but more because I don't have anything new to contribute.

I really enjoy "Theme" through "Little House" but the rest of the album is a bit of a miss for me. I don't listen to this album very much but I usually enjoy it when I do.

And honestly, you can copy/paste my response for the next two albums as well. :lol

Ditto.

I'm still reading and enjoying the comments by those who are more familiar with these works.  :tup

Yeah, these last three weren't the greatest records. Like I said, I'd love to make a single disc of all the awesome material, I believe that'll fit, and it would be an awesome disc. But like this, not so much. Too much filler.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: darkshade on December 17, 2015, 10:03:38 AM
Chunga's is an album I checked out relatively recently in my Zappa fandom. I knew most of the songs already from later live albums, but I have to say I was pleasantly surprised the first time I heard this album. It's got a heavy rock/blues feel, with lots of improv, very much a night-time album. My favorite track is Twenty Small Cigars, because it's such a great, haunting melody, and a tune I wasn't familiar with when I first listened, even though I had been a Zappa fan for years by then. TSC is not a tune that Zappa performed live, and the only other versions I know of are from the King Kong album, and a version from Joe Travers on one of the AAFNRAAA albums. Anyway, great jazz tune. I wish it didn't have that sudden fade out at the end.

The rest of the album does have a transitional feel to it, in context of Zappa's canon, and is surrounded by other more popular albums. You got the 60s Mothers and Hot Rats behind, and Filmore and 200 Motels after. This is the first appearance of George Duke, so that's always great. Only song I'm whatever about, is Would You Go All The Way. Title track is classic and I really like Frank's tone on this version. It's a flawed album, but an enjoyable one.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: sneakyblueberry on December 17, 2015, 07:32:58 PM
The main riff in Chunga's Revenge is awesome
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: Nihil-Morari on December 19, 2015, 02:30:20 AM
I won't be able to write up Fillmore today. There is a chance that I'll finish writing before christmas, but I'm not sure. I'll be away a lot.

Anyways, happy christmas to all of you!

(https://usercontent2.hubimg.com/12277109_f520.jpg)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 07, 2016, 01:48:24 AM
Getting this thing going again! Had a great holiday, looking forward to a year of Zappa. If I can manage to keep up the one album a week pace, we'll roughly get to You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Vol. 1 in 2016. Looking forward to all the great albums that lie in between Fillmore and that one!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: Podaar on January 07, 2016, 05:57:08 AM
No shit, that's the real cream of the crop, IMO. Welcome back N-M!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: jammindude on January 07, 2016, 06:27:07 AM
I was just wondering about this yesterday!!  Looking forward to it!!!   :corn
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: darkshade on January 07, 2016, 03:09:18 PM
Bring it on!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: DebraKadabra on January 08, 2016, 08:12:52 PM
Horribly, horribly late to this thread - I'll hit the the high points with what you've covered so far N-M so as not to clog things up.

Quick intro to Deb's FZ fandom - my older brother was a FZ fanatic starting in about.... 1983 or 1984. He got HARDCORE into him probably after he graduated US high school in 1985. He'd give me FZ mixtapes and badger me about listening to them until one day I finally did. Frank was an acquired taste for me to start, I'll be on Front Street about that. But, with repeat listens, I got into him hardcore the summer of 1989 (which was a year after I graduated US high school, and YES I'M SHOWING MY AGE HERE BUT IDGAF lol). So, that said...

Freak Out!--I got into this one well after 1989, probably deep into my FZ fandom. Great, great record, and a fond memory is driving on I-35 here in Austin while I was still with Wey and we spun this one. Perfect example of FZ's twisted doo-wop and the very start of his sense of humor on wax. Favorites:  Who Are The Brain Police?, Trouble Every Day (though I prefer other versions of it tbh), It Can't Happen Here

Absolutely Free--Another FZ affair I got into, but I got into AF earlier into my FZ fandom because the majority of this record was on a mixtape my brother made for me. He'd put the whole second side and almost all of the first on the mixtape. "A moonbeam through the prune... in June... " :lol :lol :lol LOVE this record. Favorites: Sorry, that little thing called the whole record. :lol

Lumpy Gravy--"The way I see it, Barry, this should be a really dynamite show." Another one of my favorites that I got into fairly early in my fandom, again thanks to my brother making a tape of the whole album. IIRC, it also marks the first appearance of Louis The Turkey. LOVE that dude, and his interplay with Motorhead. :lol "How do you get your water so dark?"... "Because I'm paranoid." :rollin Favorites--whole album.

We're Only In It For The Money--The start of a lapse in Deb's FZ knowledge. I SHOULD know this album more than I do and I do... but that's more thanks to Playground Psychotics than WOIIFTM. However, some songs from this one ended up on one of the MANY mixtapes my brother made, bless his pointy opinionated head. Favorites--Who Needs The Peace Corps?, The Idiot Bastard Son, Concentration Moon, Mom & Dad, Let's Make The Water Turn Black

Cruisin' With Ruben & The Jets--Another one I'm woefully unfamiliar with. No favorites on this one, sadly, though I have heard it once and I remember liking some of it, especially since the doo-wop on this one was quite over the top. :lol

Uncle Meat--The classic that I need to listen to more. My brother ended up essentially giving me his old CD copy of this when the first Ryko re-releases came out. Favorites:  Electric Aunt Jemima, The Dog Breath Variations, Sleeping in a Jar (though again, I like other versions of this one better), Cruising For Burgers, Mr. Green Genes

Mothermania--I have never heard of this one. Ever. Seeing that it's a compilation that Frank eventually disavowed (according to wiki), I see why as it just looks to be more of a "greatest hits" type of affair than a real release. Arf.

Hot Rats--A lot of people see this as the FZ album that people will dig if they're not familiar with The Conceptual Continuity. Fair enough. It's a great record, don't get me wrong. I'd say it's a... Top 15ish for me. Great, but not the ABSOLUTE BEST EVER MOO-AAAHHHH. Favorites:  Peaches en Regalia, Willie the Pimp, Little Umbrellas (I just got goosebumps typing that, I LOVE this song), Son of Mr. Green Genes.

Burnt Weeny Sandwich--Yet another I'm woefully unfamiliar with, except for Aybe Sea. Funny story time... I had to explain to my brother that Abye Sea was "ABC". :lol :lol :lol Which, I do like that song rather much btw.

Weasels Ripped My Flesh--RZZZZZ!!!! I became familiar with this one... I'd say early 1990s-ish. The first song I heard off of this one was Gas Mask, thanks to it being my brother's favorite and he was REALLY stoned at the time. Needless to say, Gas Mask grew on me lol. :lol Favorites:  Prelude to the Afternoon of a Sexually Aroused Gas Mask (naturally :lol ), Oh No/The Orange County Lumber Truck (there's some SMOKING live versions of both Lumber Truck and Oh No), Didja Get Any Onya, My Guitar Wants To Kill Your Mama

And now we come to... *drum roll*

CHUNGA'S REVENGE (in 3D aaarrrrrffff  :lol )

My absolute, absolute favorite on this album is Transylvania Boogie. I love that song in a quite unhealthy way but it's JUST SO DAMN GOOD. I also like Tell Me You Love Me and Sharleena, but I prefer live versions to the studio versions on those... which is a recurring theme for me on a LOT of Frank's music.

TL;DR Deb is a FZ-aholic. Arf. :biggrin: :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: Orbert on January 08, 2016, 08:56:27 PM
Deb!!  I was wondering what happened to you.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #11 Chunga's Revenge
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 09, 2016, 04:53:39 AM
Arf. :biggrin: :lol

Hey! Welcome to the thread! Very cool to read your story, and incredible that you can summarize your feeling on 11 Zappa albums in a couple of sentences. Update coming right now!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: DebraKadabra on January 10, 2016, 05:18:48 PM
Gah, I didn't notice your write-up for Fillmore! :-X

Anyhooooooo.....

Fillmore East - June 1971--I'll admit, I haven't listened to the whole album in its entirety, but YAY for the start of the Flo/Eddie era! :lol They managed to come up with some really interesting twists on old Mothers songs, and I love how Do You Like my New Car? eventually evolved into The Groupie Routine from YCDTOSA 1. :lol :lol :lol That, and the beginning of the legend of the one and only... mud shark... DWAAAAARF NEBULAAAAAA oops. :rollin

Favorites: Do You Like My New Car?, What Kind Of Girl Do You Think We Are?, Happy Together

Interesting note - the live stuff with John Lennon and (eeegads) Yoko Ono was recorded during these shows, but didn't show up on wax for Zappa until Playground Psychotics. It was also the start of the John/Yoko vs Frank feud, where John and Yoko renamed King Kong as "Jam Rag" and called it their own composition, which really pissed Frank off. In Frank's own words (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1cx-Q88cxw)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: bout to crash on January 10, 2016, 08:29:50 PM
Interesting indeed! I've fallen behind here. I need a spanking.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Orbert on January 10, 2016, 08:50:11 PM
Wait, what the hell just happened?  How did I miss the Fillmore East writeup from... last month?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: bout to crash on January 10, 2016, 09:47:51 PM
Wait, what the hell just happened?  How did I miss the Fillmore East writeup from... last month?

Yeah, me too. Was a bit confused but chalked it up to the holidays...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Big Hath on January 10, 2016, 09:48:06 PM
NM edited a previous post instead of making it a new post
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: bout to crash on January 10, 2016, 09:48:23 PM
Ohhhhhhh. Makes a lot more sense now.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: jammindude on January 11, 2016, 12:02:30 AM
That weirded me out too.   NM....don't do that any more.   Just stop it!   :rollin
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: DebraKadabra on January 11, 2016, 12:25:03 AM
Interesting indeed! I've fallen behind here. I need a spanking.

*swat*

NM edited a previous post instead of making it a new post

OH... that's what happened... :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 11, 2016, 01:42:01 AM
 :lol


Haha! Sorry, will fix it in a minute. I guess I was out of my game  ;)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 11, 2016, 01:42:38 AM
Official Release #12 'Fillmore East - June 1971'
(Released 08/1971)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/12_FillmoreEast.png)


Background Information:
Now Zappa was on a roll. Live there was more and more comedy, mainly to please the audience, and less long tracks and solo’s. This album is a great example of what happened on the road in those days. The two Turtles singers Howard Kaylan and Mark Volman are performing comedy routines while the band, undaunted, plays on.
Most tracks are telling ‘rock group’ stories, mainly concerning groupies. While most tracks are fun to listen to, they lack the musical density that Zappa portrayed up until this record.
The album includes Happy Together, the hit record that groupies craved for in those days (at least, that’s what the album tells us). Seeing people react to that song would make most artists happy, but not Zappa. The fact that the entire show sort of was a concept leading up to a grand finale that was not one of Zappa’s compositions was frustrating him.
Very apparent on this album, especially in Bwana Dik, is Zappa’s new way of selling his complex music to a big audience. His juvenile and often dirty jokes mask the fact that you’re listening to quite complicated music.
Please note that this is an album consisting of songs recorded in the same way, in the same period, by the same musicians. That’s a rare thing.

The Album Itself:
There are two kinds of songs on this album, first there are the songs that focus on the composition, or the instrumentation. There is a very rockin’ version of Willie The Pimp on this record (with a solo!), Little House I Used To Live In is some sort of condensed version of the Burnt Weeny version. Then there’s the encore, Lonesome Electric Turkey, Peaches En Regalia and Tears Began To Fall, which is something this album really needs. After all the joking it’s cool to hear the band firing.
On the other hand there’s the comedy songs, with Do You Like My New Car as the least song-y song. Most of these tracks are a real fun insight in the life on the road in those days (or possibly the life on the road as they would’ve liked it).


Essential Tracks:
Little House I Used To Live In
What Kind Of Girl Do You Think We Are?
Do You Like My New Car?
Peaches En Regalia
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Orbert on January 11, 2016, 11:33:12 AM
I like this one a lot.  I actually picked up Just Another Band from L.A. first, then got Fillmore East shortly after, but these two albums are by the same band and from the same period.  "Billy the Mountain" (from L.A.) was my first Zappa "epic" and got me into the Flo and Eddie era.  Fillmore East took the Flo and Eddie stage show to the next level.  Oh Mein Godt!  What a crazy, ridiculous, brilliant piece of work!

I love it all, except for "Tears Begin to Fall".  I just never got into the Doo-wop side of Frank, and here's a Doo-wop song without any actual Doo-wop, so IMO it didn't have much left going for it, but at least it was last and I could just skip it when it came on.  The rest of this album is solid gold, as far as I'm concerned.  Obviously, it makes a lot more sense when listened to sequentially, since it's all one thing.

"We are not groupies!"
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: DebraKadabra on January 11, 2016, 07:28:21 PM
Fillmore East - June 1971--I'll admit, I haven't listened to the whole album in its entirety, but YAY for the start of the Flo/Eddie era! :lol They managed to come up with some really interesting twists on old Mothers songs, and I love how Do You Like my New Car? eventually evolved into The Groupie Routine from YCDTOSA 1. :lol :lol :lol That, and the beginning of the legend of the one and only... mud shark... DWAAAAARF NEBULAAAAAA oops. :rollin

Favorites: Do You Like My New Car?, What Kind Of Girl Do You Think We Are?, Happy Together

Interesting note - the live stuff with John Lennon and (eeegads) Yoko Ono was recorded during these shows, but didn't show up on wax for Zappa until Playground Psychotics. It was also the start of the John/Yoko vs Frank feud, where John and Yoko renamed King Kong as "Jam Rag" and called it their own composition, which really pissed Frank off. In Frank's own words (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1cx-Q88cxw)

Reposting since N-M screwed the pooch. ARF! :biggrin: :rollin :metal
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on January 11, 2016, 10:44:12 PM
This is a brilliant live album, I love the flo and eddie stuff! And it has a brief version of Little House, which is one of my Zappa favourites!  :lol  :metal
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 12, 2016, 10:30:27 AM
I really really like this album too. I try to remain objective while writing for this thread, but the flo and eddie era clicked first. I got into Zappa by my Zappa crazy uncle, and started with YCDTOSA 3 and Roxy & Elsewhere. After that the entire works was way too much, and on a suggestion by a local cd shop owner I just started from the top. The Mothers stuff sounded too old to me at first, but I couldn't stop laughing when I got to this album and (even more so) Just Another Band.

Anyway, I'm listening to a bootleg (it's on spotify), which is one of the first recordings of Flo and Eddie in Zappa's band, called 'VPRO Radio Piknik Uddel' and it's crazy to hear these guys make mistakes, which makes it especially cool to hear. Since it's a radio show the sound quality is pretty awesome mostly. For the people who want even more Zappa  ;)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Orbert on January 12, 2016, 11:26:47 AM
Cool, thanks for the tip!  I'll check it out sometime.


One thing I love about "the Flo and Eddie era" (for lack of a better term) is how it highlighted how amazing their voices were.  That high, high singing in "Latex Solar Beef" is incredible.  Sure, there are lyrics, but you can tell that Frank was using their voices as instruments.  On "Peaches en Regalia" they actually are just instruments.  Also, just the idea that these are The Turtles, the guys who sang "Happy Together" and went on to become Mothers, cracks me up.

Fall 1980.  I'm sitting in my dorm room at Michigan State, listening to this album.  My school-assigned roommate and I got along fine, but we were complete opposites.  He had his TV and liked to drink; I had my albums and preferred alternative intoxicants.  Many evenings were spent with both of us appropriately unsobered, him watching TV, and me with my headphones on.  Anyway, if he wasn't around, I didn't need the headphones, but he came back from class and Fillmore East was playing, so he listened a while.  Not quite his thing, but whatever.  Then "Happy Together" started, and he said "Hey, I know this song!  This is The Mothers?  I had no idea!"

I just said "Oh yeah, The Mothers have done all kinds of stuff.  This is a live album, but yeah, this is them."

Heh heh.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 12, 2016, 11:53:53 AM
 :lol cool story. I've had some crazy looks when blasting Zappa's version of Stairway to Heaven.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Podaar on January 12, 2016, 11:58:04 AM
Deb and Gentlemen, This is why I say I'll go out of my way to read anything Orbert writes!  :lol

If we all started recounting the instances of "odd looks" from others while we were listening to Zappa, we'd completely take this thread off course.

Still, when we get to Joe's Garage, I just may need to share my favorite story!   :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Orbert on January 12, 2016, 01:12:12 PM
I'm looking forward to it, Mr. Peccary.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Podaar on January 12, 2016, 02:37:50 PM
I don't listen to this album as much as "Just Another Band From L.A.", which is really stupid because as I'm listening to it now I'd have to say it's probably more enjoyable, over all.

Also, Latex Solar Beef has the lyric in it that first made me pay attention to the "conceptual continuity".

Hear the screaming hot black steaming
Iridescent Naugahyde python's gleaming
Steam roller


When I noticed Cyborg singing that lyric, probably about the 20th time I listened to Joe's Garage, it was the first time I thought to myself, "Hey, that's from the end of Latex Solar Beef!" From then on I started noticing the crossover themes more often and of course they're everywhere in the discography.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Orbert on January 12, 2016, 03:45:04 PM
I love the Conceptual Continuity!  And that's one of the first ones I noticed, too.

One that I discovered "backwards" was on Roxy & Elsewhere where Frank introduces Bruce Fowler's dance, which he hopes will sweep the ocean, right after the mud shark did.  I didn't pick up Fillmore East until later, but it of course has the original Mud Shark Dance (and the Mud Shark Arpeggio) which is sweeping the ocean.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Podaar on January 12, 2016, 04:18:28 PM
Well, for me, the circular-motion was always destined to take the place of the mud shark in my mythology.  :)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Orbert on January 12, 2016, 05:01:27 PM
Rub it!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Mosh on January 12, 2016, 09:58:22 PM
I think I've only heard this album once before. My first reaction on this listen is that the sound is comparable to a bootleg. Very raw. As far as Flo & Eddie albums go, it's probably the one I have the least use for. It is very similar to JABFLA, but inferior in nearly every way. That said I still enjoy it (just like pretty much any Zappa album).

The Flo & Eddie bits are fun, especially Do You Like My Car. I just wish the music had a bit more going on like the interactions on the JABFLA album. I think my favorite moment on the album is Happy Together. The way it fits the "concept" of the album and how its built up to, it's very effective but also a solid rendition. Plus I actually really like that song. Lots of cool references in this of course, blink-and-you-miss-it musical references to Lumpy Gravy, Tell Me You Love Me, and others. This is also the introduction of one of the more popular pieces of conceptual continuity: The Mud Shark. And I'm always up for any version of Peaches. Love how Flo & Eddie are utilized in this as well.

I do like the Flo & Eddie stuff, I just think it overshadows everything else a little too much for me to go for this album as much as some of the others. In JABFLA, the music plays a more active role during the more vocal driven bits, rather than just being background. But still a cool little artifact and I dig the raw sound. I ike that it's an unpolished capture of the moment, warts and all. 

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Orbert on January 12, 2016, 11:08:29 PM
My first reaction on this listen is that the sound is comparable to a bootleg.

Has anyone mentioned this yet?  The album itself is a jab at all the Mothers bootlegs that were out there at the time.  It has a plain white cover with the band name, venue, and date written on it in pencil.  Like a cheap bootleg.

In "Billy the Mountain" from Just Another Band from L.A. (released only months later), Studebaker Hawk gets a mysterious phone call, and during that call, he asks the person on the other end "Did you get those white albums I sent you, with the pencil on the front?  Yeah?  Yeah, you should move some of those for me."
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Cyclopssss on January 13, 2016, 01:19:16 AM
This off course, was the culmination of the Flo and Eddie era Mothers. As ambitious as ' 200 Motels'  (the movie) had been, Fillmore East June' 71 is where this version of the Mothers made their mark. The sound, as has been mentioned isn't great. But the material is. The band somehow manages to flow effortless from composition to composition, delivering Zappa's humurous offerings with near perfect timing. It's a pleasure to hear the audience's honest reactions to the often bizarre lyrics, of which there is a LOT of. Bwana Dick, Willy the Pimp, Do you like my new car?, What kind of girl do you think we are? are a testament to a band that was clearly having a good time performing them. Not to mention the deliberate culmination in the Turtles hit ' Happy Together', as a punctuation mark to the cabaret performance that went before it. The audience unleashes an applause in clear relief of getting a breather. The whhole Mudshark section is perfect. Peaches en regalia has never sounded as tight and musically profound as it does on this record. The whole Latex Solar Beef song has to heard to be believed. Fillmore East June ' 71 deserves all the credits it gets.

It's a pitty this band wasn't around longer than it the period it was given. It ended off course at the end of ' 71 with some lunatic pushing Frank off stage into the orchestra pit at the Rainbow theatre because he ' thought Zappa was giving his girl the eye' .  :facepalm: I think we could have gotten a lot more great records out of this band had that not happened, but who knows, really? Frank was fickle, often soon bored with formats.

As it is, together with some portions of 200 Motels, Just Another Band From LA and some even more fantastic renditions of classic Zappa tunes on 'Playground Psychotics'  this is the best it would get from this version of the Mothers. A true classic.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: darkshade on January 13, 2016, 07:14:04 PM
My only thoughts at the moment:

WITH A BULLET!
WITH A BULLET!
WITH A BULLET!
WITH A BULLET!

*drum smash because he thought there would be another "WITH A BULLET!"  :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Mosh on January 13, 2016, 07:36:26 PM
Ha! Noticed that on my last listen.

One thing I like about the version of Peaches on this album is the improvised guitar solo. It's such a tight arrangement that it's hard to do much improvising, but Frank makes it work. Close enough to what's on the album but different enough to be a completely fresh take.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: DebraKadabra on January 13, 2016, 08:02:00 PM
My only thoughts at the moment:

WITH A BULLET!
WITH A BULLET!
WITH A BULLET!
WITH A BULLET!

*drum smash because he thought there would be another "WITH A BULLET!"  :lol

ROFL, that is indeed a priceless moment. :rollin
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Orbert on January 13, 2016, 08:52:22 PM
It's the part that gets me the hottest.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 14, 2016, 02:34:12 AM
It's a pitty this band wasn't around longer than it the period it was given. It ended off course at the end of ' 71 with some lunatic pushing Frank off stage into the orchestra pit at the Rainbow theatre because he ' thought Zappa was giving his girl the eye' .  :facepalm: I think we could have gotten a lot more great records out of this band had that not happened, but who knows, really? Frank was fickle, often soon bored with formats.

Zappa stated, after disbanding the band, that he wasn't connecting with the show anymore, the music wasn't that important anymore, and one of the musical highlights of the show was a song that he hadn't written.

Volman acknowledges. "It really wasn't the Mothers any more. The show built up and up to ‘Happy Together’ and, I think, at some point his comrades in arms who he listened to came to him and said ‘you know, you're losing your base, you're losing your thing here.’ But I really don't think he paid much attention until he started noticing it for himself, and realized he needed to re-evaluate."

[...]

(and about making a 180 degrees turn into his next project, Waka/Jawaka. After the show with the fire (see: Deep Purple), Zappa wanted to return to the US immediately, but the rest of the band wanted to finish the tour, 3 cancelled shows later, and with new equipment, the first concert involved a man, an orchestra pit, and some broken bones)

Volman is convinced, "that European tour set Frank back emotionally a lot. He took a lot of it on himself spiritually, he suddenly looked at what we were doing on stage – things like ‘The Fat Floating Sofa’, which was God making the porno film with the nun and the dogs ... there was some pretty ludicrous, but morally low material there, spiritually it was the lowest he'd ever sunk. And I honestly think the effect of the fire and the incident at the Rainbow, made him start to re-evaluate spiritually what he was doing – the thought that there may have been some sort of karmic payback going on, a slap in the face: ‘take that.’ Back to back, these two concerts wiped him out for almost a year."

https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Zappa_And_The_Mothers_–_The_Flo_And_Eddie_Years (https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Zappa_And_The_Mothers_–_The_Flo_And_Eddie_Years)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Cyclopssss on January 14, 2016, 03:25:17 AM
Alright, I can understand Volman's thinking there, that Zappa was perhaps losing his base. But Karmic payback time? Come on, it's not like Frank was all politically correct all of a sudden afterwards.

This is the guy who came up with Catholic girls, why does it hurt when I pee, zombie woof, Dinamoe Humm, Camarillo Brillo, Dirty love, Traci is a snob, etc, etc. I do admit however that his best work was yet to come, as were his best bands. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Orbert on January 14, 2016, 07:11:50 AM
I knew that some shows were cancelled after the famous Smoke on the Water incident, but I didn't realize that the show where the guy pushed him off the stage was the very first show after that.  The end of an era indeed.

Also, wow!  I didn't know about the WikiJawaka.  I have a lot of reading to do!  I've read most of this site: ARF! (https://www.arf.ru/index.html)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 14, 2016, 07:54:32 AM
That's a cool site. I use this one as well: https://globalia.net/donlope/fz/index.html (https://globalia.net/donlope/fz/index.html)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: darkshade on January 14, 2016, 05:28:23 PM
A little ahead of ourselves, we still have 2 more Flo an Eddie albums, but I think if Frank wasn't pushed off the stage and broken his back and larynx (which lowered his voice by a half step or something like that, giving him that "classic Frank" voice we all know and love on post F&E albums) he wouldn't have went in the jazzier, more complex, sophisticated direction he went in, as well as more political as time went on. I remember reading somewhere that Frank got into jazz heavily during the down-time between that last concert with Flo an Eddie, and the Waka-Jawaka/Grand Wazoo sessions. Frank never admitted liking jazz much, but he obviously did. He met Miles Davis (I believe) in the 60s but he snubbed Frank, so that left a bad taste in his mouth when it came to "jazz" and being labelled a "jazz musician".

Makes sense that he had a "revelation" of sorts, he probably spent a lot of time reflecting on his career during the 71-72 time while stuck in a wheelchair. I mean, almost everything released in the remainder of the 70s is some of Frank's best work.

But let's get through 200 Motels and JABFLA first.  :)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: DebraKadabra on January 16, 2016, 07:27:21 AM
https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Zappa_And_The_Mothers_–_The_Flo_And_Eddie_Years (https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Zappa_And_The_Mothers_–_The_Flo_And_Eddie_Years)

That was a GREAT read!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 16, 2016, 10:53:50 AM
200 Motels is a lot to digest, trying to update tomorrow!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #12 Fillmore East - June 1971
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 17, 2016, 02:13:09 PM
Official Release #13 '200 Motels'
(Released 10/1971)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/13_200Motels.jpg)


Background Information:
One of Zappa’s biggest works. A monstrous undertaking with The Mothers and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, combining both Zappa’s new comedy rock music and some of his most challenging orchestral works. All of this packed in over an hour and a half of musical madness.
And as if that weren’t enough, they only had 5 rehearsal days (and only 7 shooting days!) for an entire movie, during which they would have to record this album as well.
Since this is a discography discussion, the soundtrack will be the main focus point.
The Mothers at this point were Flo & Eddie, good old Ian Underwood and George Duke. Furthermore there was bass player Martin Lickert (he replaced Jeff Simmons who quit the group just before the filming began) and drummer Aynsley Dunbar (Ruth Underwood is credited as well). He was the first rock star to be added to the Mothers line up, back in 1969, but now with Flo & Eddie there were more band members who already had a career.
For 200 motels Zappa needed some extra characters, and he was fortunate enough to find Keith Moon willing to add his craziness to the movie. Besides Moon, Ringo Starr played a pretty big part in the movie. Zappa found himself surrounded by rockstars.
A remarkable name on this list of musicians is Jimmy Carl Black. The original Mother didn’t part in good ways with Zappa but he does play a part in this album, mainly singing ‘Lonesome Cowboy Burt’.
The album wasn’t released on CD until 1997, and then sold out quickly.

The Album Itself:
So conceptually this album mainly deals with what touring life can do with you: ’Touring can make you go crazy’. Musically it’s a record that has everything Zappa is known for (except for long solo’s). There’s the spoken work, comedy, rock music, classical music and even some tape editing. This was the first time Zappa could record with a REAL orchestra, meaning he could write whatever he’d want to write. Some parts are vaguely reminiscent of the synclavier albums, later on in his career.
Although there are a lot of tracks, and there’s a lot of music on this album, it really flows well. Not many tracks are suitable for standalone listens (with the possible exception of Mystery Roach, Lonesome Cowboy Burt and Daddy, Daddy, Daddy).
A track by track breakdown of this record is pointless, 5 tracks are shorter than a minute, and only 11 tracks (out of 34!) are longer than 3 minutes. Most tracks segue, and nearly all tracks feature all kinds of music mixed in one Zappa-esque bag. Again: a track by track review would be pointless.
This is a record to go to when you’re interested in Zappa classical music, but can’t make yourself to listen to a full album of that stuff. If you’re a fan of the Flo & Eddie era this is a great one too, they really shine.
In terms of conceptual continuity (Zappa’s way of describing recurring themes throughout his work) this album is a big one. There’s hint of past and future releases everywhere. This is also the record that got Zappa in real trouble with the law. Because of the sexual references everywhere he had to appear in court, of which there’s a hilarious account in The Real Frank Zappa Book. The way Zappa’s describes him defending himself agains an 80 year old judge reading out ‘The last boy to do her got in and got soft’ is really amusing to read.

PS. I’ve noticed that this album isn’t on spotify. You can find a vinyl rip on youtube.


Essential Tracks:
Semi Fraudulent/Direct-From-Hollywood Overture
Mystery Roach
Lonesome Cowboy Burt
She Painted Up Her Face through Shove It Right In
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Mosh on January 17, 2016, 05:11:32 PM
Unfortunately this is probably the most rare Zappa album. Of the official releases, it's the only one the ZFT hasn't managed to regain the rights for. I believe it still belongs to UA. As a result, this is the only album that wasn't rereleased in 2012 with the rest of FZ's catalog and the Rykos are very hard to find. I was lucky enough to find a vinyl copy in fairly good condition and that's what I'm listening to now.

I think this could be Zappa's most challenging album. As Nihli-Morari said, it pretty much covers every style Zappa was known for, minus the solos. Most of his albums tend to stick to a certain style or sound, but this one is all over the place musically and very hard to follow at first. It's also pretty difficult to pick out individual pieces, everything flows together. The majority of it is the orchestral 20th century classical stuff which can be very challenging on its own. However there is a bit of straightforward melodic stuff, like the Overture (a reworking of Holiday In Berlin) and Strictly Genteel. I enjoy both quite a bit and I think Frank did a good job mixing the melodic and the avant garde. The few rock songs on the album seem to blend in with everything else, almost as if they are part of the orchestral bits. It's like a demented hybrid symphony. It's also very long and dense, so I have to be in the right mood to fully enjoy it.

A small detail but the drumming in Would You Like a Snack (Holiday In Berlin) makes me wish Aynsley Dunbar was around to play drums on Burnt Weeny Sandwich. I'm not sure if I mentioned it during that album's discussion, but I find JCB's drum performance on it pretty lacking. One of the few things that brings the album down. I like him fine on the more blues/doowop driven early Mothers material, but as FZ got more Jazz driven and more experimental he kinda falls behind everyone else. Dunbar on the other hand doesn't do anything spectacular on the tune, but still keeps up with the rest of the band much better and keeps it a bit more interesting. Really fit in the band well during that period.

But anyway, everything flows together rather nicely. Nothing really sticks out like a sore thumb or feels out of place. There are pros and cons to this of course. On one hand, it creates a very immersive listening experience. On the other, there isn't a single song I'll listen to out of context. Luckily, there are better out of context versions of these songs on other albums that I can go for, such as several great renditions of Strictly Genteel.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Orbert on January 17, 2016, 07:34:20 PM
Whoa, I got confused for a minute.  I was expecting Just Another Band from L.A. next, as it's from August 1971, but I'd totally forgotten that it wasn't released until 1972.  In my head, Just Another Band from L.A. is next after Fillmore East, being recorded only two months later.

I saw 200 Motels, the movie, sometime in the late 70's when I was in high school.  A special midnight showing at the local theater, back when it was a bit more common to do such things.  This was the same theater than had The Rocky Horror Picture Show every Friday and Saturday night at midnight for years.  Sometime during the summer, they ran 200 Motels on a weeknight, and I went and saw it with Chris, lead guitarist from the band and one of my best friends.  It was amazing.  I loved it. Part of that, perhaps a large part, was due to completely frying our brains on combustible intoxicants beforehand.  When I rented it on video many years later, sober, I could barely get through it.  I honestly don't remember much about the music, but the visual spectacle was great.  "Dental Hygiene Dilemma" still cracks me up.  And "Centerville -- A Really Nice Place to Raise Your Kids Up".

I don't remember if I've ever heard the album.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 18, 2016, 01:13:08 AM
You should check out the album, Orbert! It really surprised me. I've seen it named a 'peripheral album' in Zappa's discography, but I'd like to rename that as a mostly overlooked album. Like you said, I was expecting Just Another Band. This doesn't really feel like part of the discography if only because you never see it on CD in shops or online. It's an island, but a very good one. I'm going to hunt down one of those Ryko editions second hand and listen the hell out of it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Cyclopssss on January 18, 2016, 05:18:18 AM
What can one say about 200 Motels? Other than it has a bizarre/almost incomprehensible storyline for the totally un-initiated to Zappa´s universe or music, it has some fantastic songs and singing on it and it was ´a nightmare´ to make, according to Zappa´s own words. It´s a pretty unique feature, in that its subject matter ´touring can make you crazy´ has probably never been more adequately visualised. The movie has a hypnotic, trippy quality to it due to all the spacy visual effects. Its probabyl a wonder the movie and sountrack exists at all, given that the intended leading character (Jeff Simmons, bassplayer) exited the project right before shooting, (there is a hysterical recording of the event during reading-rehearsal sessions on Playground Psychotics, which I have mentioned a couple of times before and is really bonafide goldmine for this era Mothers) bizarrely to be replaced by Ringo Starr´s chauffeur, Martin Lickert, who happened to play enough bass to not embarass himself but was nice looking, so, ok...the original director storming off the set after another ´difference of opinnon´ about artistic/moral aspects of the shooting, the immensely tight shooting schedule due to limited budget (of Zappa´s own money) and the fact that the orchestra was on a union time-clock (meaning, they were itching to be off to a nearby pub, returning worse for wear). That, plus some bizarre performances of the band, Ringo Starr, Keith Moon, Motorhead Sherwood and some groupies/nuns, made it a pretty long watch for me personally.

There are some great songs and moments in there though, besides the aforementioned songs I would also mention a pretty rawcous rendition of ´Magic Fingers´ which is absolutely rocking. It has to be said that anytime the band does come in between all the classical orchestral stuff, it sounds awesome.  Flo and Eddie are the absolute stars of the movie, and never sounded better. Especially the Finale, Strictly Genteel, is classic Zappa at it´s best, even Theodore Bickel gets his shining moment.

For the full story, try to get the Ryko double cd release which contained an excellent expansive liner notes booklet. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 18, 2016, 06:54:37 AM
For the full story, try to get the Ryko double cd release which contained an excellent expansive liner notes booklet.

Oh dammit, I saw a copy on discogs, 40 euros including shipping, for a second hand album that I already own on vinyl. But I just had to have it  :)

I agree with you on the contrast between rock stuff and classical stuff. While the recording isn't that great, the band really sounds powerful, maybe because of the orchestra. I really begin to like this record!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Cyclopssss on January 18, 2016, 07:02:53 AM
Yeah, I understand it´s out of print? Anyway, TRFZ book is a great reading companion on any of these stories. Including to court appearance where an ancient judge had to sit to a reading of the lyrics to ´Penis dimension´ and ´Bwana Dick´, apparantly.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: DebraKadabra on January 18, 2016, 05:57:10 PM
Hmm... much like Orbert, I'm more familiar with the movie than the soundtrack. I'm actually more familiar with the stuff about 200 Motels that landed on Playground Psychotics because the stuff on there is hip deep in the Flo and Eddie years.

Now that said... yes, the movie is disjointed and weird but Frank intended for it to be that way. I may have to rewatch it very soon.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on January 18, 2016, 06:58:55 PM
I've got the movie which is a hilarious abstract, absurd masterpiece and the soundtrack is a great addition to get to really hear the orchestral music of the movie. This is one of the many things that make me love Zappa so much!!  :metal
And I love the inclusion of Holiday In Berlin as conceptual continuity in the film score, awesome stuff!!

Still, I can't wait till you get to Orchestral Favourites and later LSO, for the orchestral stuff!!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Cyclopssss on January 19, 2016, 01:25:29 AM
The whole 'Redneck eats'/'Lonesome Cowboy Burt' part is so absurd, it's hilarious. Jimmy Carl Black played a fantastic stereotypical redneck cowboy, which is a joke in itself, seeing as he was 'the indian of the group'.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 21, 2016, 10:01:55 AM
Got my order already. The booklet of the Ryko release is indeed a great read! It's a really detailed description of the recording. Impressively detailed. Stuff like, 'the solo soprano arrived on Sunday, January 24th', is remarkable considering it was in 1971, 26 years before that was written.
Anyway, great to read how much Zappa wanted to control the entire process, and how he came up with shooting on tape, and transferring to 35mm film, something that hadn't been done before, and went on to become standard within 10 years.

It is strange to read that after this the band went to record the Fillmore album, one that we've already discussed. Anyway, we'll be moving on to Just Another Band soon. Looking forward to it, Billy The Mountain is one of my favorite Zappa pieces.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 23, 2016, 02:20:42 AM
In the meantime, these two things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRCe5L1imxg
The Turtles, aka Flo and Eddie before they joined Zappa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aFRBbnF-ag
A 1971 Dutch (subtitled) documentary on Zappa, mainly at home, but with a couple cool live clips from 71.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Orbert on January 23, 2016, 07:22:09 AM
French Horn!  Cannot unsee Flo and Eddie while watching The Turtles now, and they do look more like guys who'd parody that kind of song than guys who'd actually sing that kind of song.  So bizarre.  But fun.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Orbert on January 23, 2016, 07:26:31 AM
French Horn!

(https://i.imgur.com/wRFPUeu.jpg)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 23, 2016, 07:30:15 AM
Eddie, are you kidding me?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Orbert on January 23, 2016, 07:35:59 AM
No, my friends, I am not kidding!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: darkshade on January 23, 2016, 05:20:27 PM
Flo and Eddie are like the 60s/70s Tim and Eric, if you guys are familiar with them. I listened to Disconnected Synapses today, and that's what I thought. Also, that album has a cool 30 minute version of King Kong.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 24, 2016, 09:25:23 AM
Flo and Eddie are like the 60s/70s Tim and Eric, if you guys are familiar with them. I listened to Disconnected Synapses today, and that's what I thought. Also, that album has a cool 30 minute version of King Kong.

Never heard of them, sorry. And though I know a lot of Beat The Boots I, I believe I never really listened to the Beat The Boots II material. I found a great looking copy of BTB I on vinyl btw, 175 euro's. Which isn't expensive, but it is a LOT of money.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 Just Another Band From L.A.
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 24, 2016, 09:28:53 AM
Official Release #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
(Released 03/1972)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/14_JABFLA.jpg)


Background Information:
The second album that consists of live material of the Flo and Eddie band. After recording 200 Motels in Januari 1971, the band went on tour. In June they recorded the Fillmore East album, and after releasing the soundtrack to 200 Motels, Zappa decided to release another live album of the same tour. The band is just as much on fire as they are on the Fillmore East record, but there are two things that make this album stand out.
Firstly there is the sound quality, whereas Fillmore East sounded (and looked) like an upgraded bootleg, this sounds way better.
Secondly, this album includes Billy The Mountain, only performed on this tour, and an incredible tour de force.

This album was released after this version of the Mothers was disbanded.
It started with The Mothers performing in Montreux, Switzerland. Some stupid with a flare gun, burned the place to the ground. The entire band lost their gear. Zappa proposed to go back home, and call off the rest of the tour. The rest of the band didn’t agree, and after 4 called off shows, they we’re back on track in London.
There the band awaited more disaster. Zappa got thrown off stage by an angry guy claiming that he gave his girlfriend ‘The Eye’. He fell down into the orchestra pit, resulting in a broken leg and ankle, a fractured skull and spinal damage amongst other things.
Zappa would be in a wheelchair for the next nine months, but the band didn’t know what the status of the band officially was.

“There was a flicker of hope when Zappa released the year old live album Just Another Band From LA, but only a flicker. "The group that we were in was now done," Volman reflects. "Emotionally, spiritually and morally, it had now run its course and Frank wasn't going to go backwards, he could only go forwards." Although Dunbar, Preston, Duke and Simmons would all be involved in Zappa’s next project, "he brought in a whole different energy and his next album, Waka/Jawaka, became a wholly instrumental thing, a distinct 180 degrees from where we were. There was nothing funny about it, there was no comedy, there was no satire, there was no tongue-in-cheek pop, and there was no ‘Happy Together’. There was nothing.””

So this was really the sign off album of this band.


The Album Itself:
Side A is a 24:42 song, and that was just because one side of vinyl wouldn’t fit anymore music. It was Zappa’s take on rock operas, with narrative and a surreal plot. Though this is possibly the worst (or ‘least best’) of the three versions that are officially released, it’s a great track. Instead of using Flo and Eddie to make sexual jokes, he used them to check out local bars and people in the places where they would play that night. Billy The Mountain then changed from night to night, always aiming to be funny for that specific audience.
Side B is more or less a collection of the best tracks that were included in the setlist, but weren’t released on Fillmore East. Album number 91, Carnegie Hall, is a full show of this era, including everything this band is great at.


Essential Tracks:
Billy The Mountain
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #13 200 Motels
Post by: darkshade on January 24, 2016, 03:01:44 PM
Flo and Eddie are like the 60s/70s Tim and Eric, if you guys are familiar with them. I listened to Disconnected Synapses today, and that's what I thought. Also, that album has a cool 30 minute version of King Kong.

Never heard of them, sorry. And though I know a lot of Beat The Boots I, I believe I never really listened to the Beat The Boots II material. I found a great looking copy of BTB I on vinyl btw, 175 euro's. Which isn't expensive, but it is a LOT of money.

Tim and Eric are comedians, they're on Adult Swim, on Cartoon Network.
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=tim+and+eric (https://lmgtfy.com/?q=tim+and+eric)

I've only heard a few Beat The Boots, from I, II, and III, some of which are of better quality if you download the actual show's soundboard off of zappateers.com (https://zappateers.com)

The one's I've heard are:

The Ark
Electric Aunt Jemima
Disconnected Synapses
Piquantique
Swiss Cheese/Fire
Saarbrucken 1978
Beat The Boots III (disc 3)

They are essentially more Zappa, containing original material not found on any of Frank's albums, live or studio. Sometimes full songs, sometimes different arrangements, sometimes improvisations, etc... Definitely not necessary to check out until you have most of Frank's albums, mostly because it is probably better appreciated once you are familiar with most of Frank's tunes, not to mention some sound great (especially if you get the show from Zappateers), some sound lousy, and anywhere in between. However, if you like a particular band of Frank's, digging deeper into live recordings opens up a whole new world of Frank Zappa, as if his main discography of 100 albums wasn't big enough.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: darkshade on January 24, 2016, 03:34:56 PM
Just Another Band From L.A. is one of my least favorite Zappa albums. But it's not bad, I just don't reach for it often. I've never gotten into Billy The Mountain much, even as I listen to it while I'm typing. It has a bass line during most of the narration that reminds me of the middle quiet part of Iron Maiden's Rime of the Ancient Mariner. The epic has cool parts, but IMO is a mess of a composition. Zappa rarely wrote very long tunes, and I like most of them, but this is his first one, and it feels very disjointed. Flo n Eddie are all over this track, and their voices can get annoying after a while.

The rest of the songs are a mix of 60s Mothers classics Call Any Vegetable and Dog Breath, which are great renditions, especially CAV, which is the best part of the album for me, it rocks. There's also 2 more new songs. IMO not the best songs Frank ever made. "Eddie..." is more high pitched F&E vocals. The other song Magdalena is actually cool musically, and has some cool parts, and might be one of Frank's "fastest" songs. This has to be the one Zappa album that uses way too much falsetto singing.

This did mark the end of the Flo and Eddie era, as Nihil covered the back story behind this album well, leading into the next era. Zappa getting pushed off stage is probably the biggest turning point in his career as it changed the direction of his music dramatically, and for me, is where Frank Zappa's discography really gets going. One thing about this era of Zappa is how much less of his vocals are represented compared to the 60s Mothers or later bands. Another is how I find the humor dry, unfunny, or hammed up too much. His best work was yet to come, and may not have come to fruition if Frank didn't have a shitty week back in December 1971.

Other albums of this era include Playground Psychotics, Finer Moments (great posthumous album, mostly instrumental, features 60s Mothers as well, and was originally intended to be released in 1972), and the posthumous album Carnegie Hall.
Flo and Eddie (along with other bands of FZ) pop up on the You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore albums as well.

We're pretty deep into this now guys. If you're going to drop out, now's the time, but keep it mind, you're missing arguably the best stuff Zappa made, starting with the next album: Waka-Jawaka.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: jammindude on January 24, 2016, 06:02:29 PM
I am still reading every single review.    I'm worried that if this ceases to be a "discussion", that the reviews will stop happening.   But I absolutely love reading them.  Don't most of these threads get archived?  Because they become great resource material when it's time to go CD shopping.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: Orbert on January 24, 2016, 11:14:09 PM
I love this album.  I had picked up both Fillmore East and this one early into my Zappa/Mothers experience, and listened to them for hours.  It never occurred to me that "Billy the Mountain" is a song, so calling it an epic, while fitting, is also misleading.  To me, it took the insane stage antics of Flo and Eddie to the logical conclusion.  A story, with spoken parts, musical parts, and parts acted out on stage (as on Fillmore East), but an epic song?  Debatable.

I still remember listening to this one in the basement of the computer lab where I used to work.  After "Magdalena" finished, this girl named Kimberly poked her head around the corner with a bizarre smile on her face, asking me what in the heck that was.  She was completely disgusted by the lyrics (which I hadn't even considered were probably not safe for work), but somehow amused at the same time that such music even exists, thus she was practically laughing as well.  My mission to spread unusual music to the world scored another minor victory.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: Podaar on January 25, 2016, 08:39:50 AM
I love this album! The humor and insanity of the Flo & Eddy line-up are on full display and are fantastic to me.

We used to put this album on during pretty big house parties back in the day. It was amusing when the ending of "Billy the Mountain" would roll around and you'd have a whole house full of drunks singing along with, "A mountain is something you don't want to fuck with, you don't want to fuck with...don't fuck around!"

And like Kimberly, in Orbert's story above, I find the lyrics to "Magdalena" funny but wrong. It helps if I think of it as satire that destroys the thought processes of incestual perverts. I remember having a difficult time wrapping my brain around the rhythm of the section that goes, "I work so haaaard, don't-you-under...stand, makingmaplesyrup for the pancakes of our land." Of course, the next line is completely absurd and hilarious.

Anyway, good memories and while it's not the most accomplished of Frank's albums, it's certainly a fun live album.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: Orbert on January 25, 2016, 11:37:42 AM
One time we were listening to the local Classic Rock station, and "Suite: Judy Blue Eyes" was reaching its inevitable conclusion.

After the final "Doo doo doo doo doo... dit doo doo doot" the DJ came on and "Ah yes, Studebaker Hawk, who was born next to the frozen beef pies... wait, I'm thinking of a different song.  Never mind."  We just looked at each other and started cracking up.  I had to call the guy and congratulate him on the awesome reference that I'm sure few people got; but those who got it, appreciated it.  So I did, called and told him it was a great reference, and he goes "Oh fuck, I'm gonna need a truss!"  Ah, the 80's.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: Podaar on January 25, 2016, 11:44:14 AM
 :lol

"You saw what just happened to the guy with the flies."
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: Cyclopssss on January 26, 2016, 02:05:46 AM
Great live album! Love the 'short songs section' on here, Billy the Mountain is something I really have to be in the mood for. (there are some great variations out there). My faves of the shorter songs would be 'Eddie are you kidding?' and 'Magdalena'. Totally forgot about the Carnegie Hall versions!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 28, 2016, 01:42:50 AM
I am still reading every single review.    I'm worried that if this ceases to be a "discussion", that the reviews will stop happening.   But I absolutely love reading them.  Don't most of these threads get archived?  Because they become great resource material when it's time to go CD shopping.

Well, discussion or not, this has become like a marathon for me too. I really want to finish this. Thanks for the compliment  :)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 28, 2016, 01:44:05 AM
Great live album! Love the 'short songs section' on here, Billy the Mountain is something I really have to be in the mood for. (there are some great variations out there). My faves of the shorter songs would be 'Eddie are you kidding?' and 'Magdalena'. Totally forgot about the Carnegie Hall versions!

Carnegie Hall is one of the best! It really is one of my favorite Zappa records of all time. Despite it being so ridiculously expensive.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on January 29, 2016, 12:56:18 AM
Again, another masterful album of music from Mr ZAPPA. By the way, I watching 200 motels as I write this  :rollin
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: DebraKadabra on January 29, 2016, 08:42:59 PM
JABFLA is really hit and miss for me, especially Billy The Mountain. I MUCH prefer the version on Playground Psychotics. JABFLA, while good, just really didn't stick out for me like many of Frank's other albums. Your mileage, as always, may vary. *me shrugs*
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: Ultimetalhead on January 30, 2016, 12:36:28 PM
I really adore Billy the Mountain, though this is the only arrangement of it I've heard. So I think it bodes well that people think the others are much better. I think JABFLA might be my favorite of the Flo and Eddie years, but that's not saying too much.

I've been spinning the mid-70s god-tier Zappa quite a bit in anticipation. Though I'm excited to give Waka and Wazoo another listen as well.  :)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 30, 2016, 12:39:51 PM
I really adore Billy the Mountain, though this is the only arrangement of it I've heard. So I think it bodes well that people think the others are much better. I think JABFLA might be my favorite of the Flo and Eddie years, but that's not saying too much.

I've been spinning the mid-70s god-tier Zappa quite a bit in anticipation. Though I'm excited to give Waka and Wazoo another listen as well.  :)

To me those are two in-betweeners, as I've never been a real fan of Zappa's fusion stuff. Waka/Jawaka coming soon!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #14 'Just Another Band From L.A.'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on January 31, 2016, 03:54:36 AM
Official Release #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
(Released 07/1972)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/15_WAKAJawaka.jpg)


Background Information:
The follow-up to Hot Rats, 3 years after Zappa did his first fusion type album. After Frank had been pushed off stage he was stuck in a wheelchair, unable to tour. He had had enough of the comedy rock he was playing and wanted to make another instrumental album.
Sound wise this album gets close to Hot Rats. A lot of improvisation, extended solo’s, and heavy themes. Overdubbing makes the sextet on this album sound like an entire bigband. So while it doesn’t have the sped up type overdubbing that was used on Hot Rats it does use a lot of regular overdubbing.


The Album Itself:
The record opens with a sidelong jazz piece called Big Swifty. It starts off with a rhythmically challenging theme and then locks itself in a 4/4 groove with multiple solo’s over it. Most notable are Sal Marquez’ trumpet solo and Tony Duran’s slide guitar solo. The ending was originally a Zappa solo, but Sal Marquez wrote it down and arranged it for trumpet, Zappa told the press in 1972.
“The restatement of the theme is actually derived from a guitar solo on the album which Sal Marquez took down on paper. […] After he'd written it out, we proceeded to over-dub three trumpets on it, and, presto! An organized conclusion for "Big Swifty.””

Though Zappa doesn’t say anything about the special in the title track, it appears to have had the same treatment.

Side two consists of two shorter tunes (with vocals!) and another jam-track. The two short tracks are fun songs, and musically closer to the jazzy stuff than to the short fun songs Zappa used to make. These actually show what was coming next. Funny ánd challenging, not just one of the two.
Your Mouth has been covered by Macy Gray, a female soul singer. It’s not that easy to find, but it’s great to hear a Zappa song being sung by a great female vocalist.
The title track is notable for a great Moog solo by Don Preston.

Essential Tracks:
Big Swifty
It Might Just Be A One-Shot Deal
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: Orbert on January 31, 2016, 07:01:13 AM
This is yet another album which falls into the "I have it and have listened to it but really don't remember a lot because it was a while ago and damn Frank has so many albums" category.  I'll try to get in a listen or two in the next few days.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 01, 2016, 04:40:32 AM
This is yet another album which falls into the "I have it and have listened to it but really don't remember a lot because it was a while ago and damn Frank has so many albums" category.  I'll try to get in a listen or two in the next few days.

Both this one and The Grand Wazoo have been like that for me too. Mainly because I know them to be fusion/jazz type records, and I'm not really fond of that.

BTW, updated the opening post for direct links to album reviews.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: Orbert on February 01, 2016, 10:24:17 AM
Okay, so I did get in two listens over the weekend.

"Big Swifty" is interesting.  I'm not a huge fan of Frank's fusiony instrumental stuff, but as with pretty much all of his work, it's hard to deny that the musicianship is top-shelf, and the composition and arrangement are excellent.  If I ever wondered what a 15-minute mashup of big-band, avant-garde, and atonal jazz-blues-rock electric guitar would sound like, this is pretty much it.  Great stuff, just not my bag.  I spend most of it listening and thinking it's building up to something which never really pays off, or waiting for something "catchy" or recognizable as a theme, something hummable, and that never really happens either.  It would make interesting background music for a twisted dinner party, but I'm sure Frank would not like to hear that his music is best used as background music.

I was familiar with "The Adventures of Greggary Peccary" (from Orchestral Favorites) first, and Greggary works for "Big Swifty and Associates".  It was fun hearing the "Big Swifty theme" here.  Greggary also has an encounter with Billy the Mountain, and you get Billy's theme as well.  Conceptual Continuity.

The songs were more accessible, but since I was listening while working out, I wasn't exactly sure where one song ended and the next began.  I assumed that the countryish sounding tune was its own thing, but it turns out that it was part of "It Just Might Be a One-Shot Deal" so that was wacky.  I liked it; it was a cool jam.  The rest... well, it's early Zappa stuff.  To my ears, it sounds more experimental than his later work, with a bit more feel like he's still trying to find his feet as well.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 01, 2016, 10:54:49 AM
Thanks for responding. I feel roughly the same about Big Swifty. As with most of Zappa's longer jam tracks, there's no actual finale. Later he reinvented the idea of playing long solo's by putting them in the middle of actual songs (like The Torture Never Stops or Inca Roads) or at least more memorable instrumental tunes (like Black Napkins or Pound For A Brown), but this one is not really what it could've been for me too.
It's cool to see you still consider this 'early Zappa stuff'. I mean it's only 6 years later than Freak Out!, but it already is his 15th album. For me the early stuff ends with Hot Rats, but mainly because I consider 1974 the end of his truly great works.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: Orbert on February 01, 2016, 11:06:13 AM
It's all relative, I guess.  This is certainly a more mature work than Freak Out! or even Hot Rats, but it's still got that experimental, groundbreaking, finding-your-way feel which I associate with anyone's "early" work.  Also, since I consider the mid-70's stuff (which we're fast approaching) the prime era, everything before that, to me, is "early".  Perhaps "transitional" would be more appropriate.  It does seem to have more in common with The Grand Wazoo than Hot Rats.  But that's a big word and I don't know how to spell it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 01, 2016, 11:14:02 AM
 :lol Yeah I agree. It's clearly transitional considering the amount of discussion on this album.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: Orbert on February 01, 2016, 11:46:43 AM
Oh yeah, I was going to mention that I once saw this album in a store, and the price sticker on it (the fancy kind with a brief description of the product) said "WakaJawaka/HotRats".  I was simultaneously impressed that someone knew that the cover art referenced an earlier album and disappointed that they somehow thought that that somehow made it unoffically an alternate title or something.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 01, 2016, 12:15:47 PM
Haha, actually, that was how Zappa referred to the album in interviews in 1972. Like it was a part two of Hot Rats.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: Orbert on February 01, 2016, 02:23:33 PM
I wondered about that.  I mean, if whoever did the cover art just thought that putting "Hot" on one faucet and "Rats" on the other was clever, or if it was really meant as a reference to the earlier album, implying a connection.  If Frank says that the albums are meant to be connected, then maybe he talked to the guy that did the cover art and it was included.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 01, 2016, 02:44:50 PM
As I understand it from the booklet the Hot and Rats idea was from Sal Marquez. About the connection, you could read this:

https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/The_Complete_History_Of_The_Few_Last_Weeks_Of_The_Mothers_Of_Invention (https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/The_Complete_History_Of_The_Few_Last_Weeks_Of_The_Mothers_Of_Invention)

The band is constantly called THE MOTHERS OF INVENTION/HOT RATS/GRAND WAZOO. As if Waka/Jawaka is called Hot Rats.
It also states this:

"2. "Big Swifty"
This piece (which comprises all of Side One of the HOT RATS Waka/Jawaka album)"


Allmusic.com has this in their review of the album "Waka/Jawaka was Zappa's second solo album and is occasionally referred to as "Hot Rats II" " Though I have to say there's no source, and I disagree with the bulk of the review.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: Podaar on February 01, 2016, 02:58:44 PM
Waka/Jawaka (the song) is one of the sides of Frank's music that I really enjoy every time I hear it. It's funny though, I never seek it out. If it didn't come on during giant shuffle listens, I'd never hear it. In fact, to hear it more often I need to change it's classification on my NAS so that it will show up when you choose the Jazz genre.

Anyway, the rest of the album is okay, I guess. The only part of Big Swifty that get's my attention is when the trumpet and guitar are soloing (sort of) at the same time. Admittedly, that's a huge section of the song.  :lol A brilliant section though.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: DragonAttack on February 01, 2016, 03:48:31 PM
Not trying to sidetrack, but I was late for 'Just Another Band From LA'.  Had a friend that played this quite often in the '90s.  Listened to the CD today for the first time in about ten years, and laughed for many reasons.  Thanks for the thread.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #15 'Waka/Jawaka'
Post by: Orbert on February 01, 2016, 03:58:38 PM
Better Nate than... I mean, better late than never.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 04, 2016, 04:36:44 AM
Official Release #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
(Released 12/1972)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/16_GrandWazoo.jpg)


Background Information:
Recorded and composed in the same period as Waka/Jawaka, stylistically the same as that album and the band is mostly the same. In other words: this is part two of Waka/Jawaka.
The difference is that this album doesn’t feature two long solistic tracks, but only one, leaving more room for compositions.

The Album Itself:
The LP starts off with For Calvin, while the CD version changed the order of the first two tracks. For no apparent reason.
The Grand Wazoo, the title track (possibly named after the French word for ‘bird’: ouiseau) is a track a la Big Swifty or Waka/Jawaka. A theme, a bunch of solo’s (the first time a trombone is really apparent in Zappa’s music) and an ending.
For Calvin (And His Next Two Hitch-Hikers) is a track that’s partly bizarre, partly cocktail music and partly impressively orchestrated rhythmic whatchamacallit. It was actually written for Calvin Schenkel, Zappa’s cover artist, who picked up two hitch-hiker on his way to work, but they we’re too drugged out to get out of the car.
There’s a massive story on Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus in the artwork, but none of that seems to have anything to do with the song. In terms of style, this song comes close to the next couple of highly successful albums.
Eat That Question and Blessed Relief are both great, mostly overlooked tracks. They are among the most melodic pieces of Zappa’s work, massively more emotional than most of his work.


Essential Tracks:
For Calvin (And His Next Two Hitch-Hikers)
Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus
Eat That Question
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Cyclopssss on February 04, 2016, 06:31:30 AM
One of the glaring, obvious aspects about this album is that Zappa used probably the most musicians up until that point on a studio recording, barr the orchestra used on the 200 motels sessions.
And a large part of the instrumentation is acoustic. The ensemble is the largest Jazz/Fusion band Zappa worked with up untill that time. incorporating the likes of Sal Marquez, Tony Duran and Bill Beyers on woodwinds together with well known stalwards as George Duke, Aynsley Dunbar and Don Preston, he created a sound on this album that only be described as 'huge'.

The music is Zappa at his improvised best, were it not that all the notes had been written out in advance. It combines jazz, blues and classical music with sometimes hilarious results. I still regard Grand Wazoo as one of FZ's finest achievements. It manages to be both impressive and playfull at the same time. A live concert with this ensemble that was recorded in september 1972 was finally released in 2007.

Also, the cover art by Cal Schenkel is once again fantastic.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Orbert on February 04, 2016, 07:23:19 AM
I picked this one up back in the day, when I was foolishly trying to collect all Zappa/Mothers I could find.  There was no Internet, no real way to even know how many there were, but I gave it a shot.  So I've listened to this one many, many times over the years and really like it, although I usually skip "For Calvin".  It just doesn't work for me.  But the "pure" instrumentals are very good.  I can definitely hear the resemblance to Waka/Jawaka, but since I didn't have that one until much later, it's not as ingrained into my psyche.

I like starting the album off with the title track, because I like it better.  I actually heard "The Grand Wazoo" on the radio one time, on the local NPR Jazz station, WDCB.  On Sunday mornings, they loosen the reins a bit.  It was a surreal experience, actually.  Sunday morning, on the way to church, I turn on the radio just as "The Grand Wazoo" is starting, and naturally I assumed I'd fired up the iPod instead by mistake.  No.  CD?  No.  It's the radio.  Wait... this is... Zappa!  On the Jazz station!?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 04, 2016, 08:50:44 AM
I've always tied this one up with Waka in my head. The differences are bigger than I thought, though. I like this album way better, actually. It's one that I overlooked.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Podaar on February 04, 2016, 09:04:29 AM
I don't have this one and I haven't listened to it since way back when Nihil threatened to start this thread. I'll give it a few spins over the next few days.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: darkshade on February 05, 2016, 09:19:17 AM
I fell a little behind on this thread. Going to listen to Waka and The Grand Wazoo later, thoughts to follow. I'll probably throw on some posthumous albums from this era, as well. They're well worth the listen.

Also:
The Grand Wazoo,  (the first time a trombone is really apparent in Zappa’s music)

Might I point out "Would You Go All The Way?" from Chunga's Revenge? George Duke on trombone.

I think he also played some on 200 Motels, you can see him in the movie as well.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 07, 2016, 02:39:46 PM
I fell a little behind on this thread. Going to listen to Waka and The Grand Wazoo later, thoughts to follow. I'll probably throw on some posthumous albums from this era, as well. They're well worth the listen.

Also:
The Grand Wazoo,  (the first time a trombone is really apparent in Zappa’s music)

Might I point out "Would You Go All The Way?" from Chunga's Revenge? George Duke on trombone.

I think he also played some on 200 Motels, you can see him in the movie as well.

Yeah that's true. I remember the footage, forgot about that. But this is the first time it's really in the centre of the attention. Bruce Fowler would take up that task later.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: darkshade on February 10, 2016, 10:48:05 AM
Whew. The "Wazoo era" came during a bit of a busy time for me, sorry for not posting sooner.

This is my favorite Zappa from here out until the early 80s. IMO, just about every album released for the remainder of the 70s is a classic FZ album, in one way or another, and it's the strongest and most consistent run of material he released.

It all started after Frank was pushed off stage with the Flo and Eddie band, ending that band. Frank supposedly did some soul searching, and listened to a lot of jazz. What resulted was a prog-jazz big band ensemble, and in the middle of the jazz-rock/fusion explosion that Frank himself pioneered; along with Miles Davis, Gary Burton, and Larry Coryell, in the late 1960s, which he may not have thought of because he was just fusing all kinds of musical styles and jazz with rock happened to be one of them. But by the time Hot Rats came around, he had gone deep into the genre, creating an early jazz-rock classic.

So in comes Waka-Jawaka. Frank took the Hot Rats concept and applied it to a big band, multiple instruments. This was first covered on Hot Rats actually, with Son of Mr. Green Genes, but here Frank goes further. On Waka-Jawaka and The Grand Wazoo, the jazz element is raised a notch or two.

W-JW starts with the fusion classic Big Swifty, one of Frank's most recognizable pieces. This tune would grow a bit more composed, but the original is great. If you're a fan of the Miles Davis albums of this time period you will likely enjoy this tune (and title track.) Great electric piano here, tons of horns.

Next up is Your Mouth. The two middle tracks were always overlooked by me, and only recently have I begun to appreciate them. Your Mouth is a bluesy track, and the next tune is It May Just Be A One Shot Deal, a song that is weird (I know right?) for Zappa, only because the composition feels choppy, but I really like the major-key parts and there's some interesting things going on in this song. It did become the title of a posthumous album "One Shot Deal" which has a few tracks recorded during this era.

The title track, like Big Swifty, is a big prog-jazz-fusion track, but is a more tightly composed tune. Unfortunately, this is the only real appearance of this song (there is a alternate take (or remixed version, I forget which) on QuAUDIOPHILIAc), as I believe it was never performed with the Wazoo bands, and was not brought back for the 88 band. This tune has some great synths (first to appear on a Zappa album?) just like most prog/jazz albums from this time. This tune feels like it should end a minute or two earlier, but the album is short anyway, so it's not a big deal.

The follow up, The Grand Wazoo, is just a better album. Every tune here is awesome, even Calvin. This was also a song I overlooked for years, but I've come to really appreciate it, and it contains a lot of cool parts, including Greggary Peccary teases (the mammoth epic was performed during the Wazoo tours, more on that in a bit). I like starting the album with this song, like the original vinyl, as that is how Frank originally wanted it (unless I listen to the CD itself) I also think the album has better flow that way, not to mention I find it funny using that as the first track because it scares off the "weak" listeners, and invites those seeking adventure with music. After Calvin, the title track comes in and it's like "we made it!" because the rest of the album is gold.

The Grand Wazoo is one of Frank's best jazz-rock tunes, and was only performed in this era. Lovely horns, a colorful arrangement of prog, jazz, and rock, with a little funk on the side. Some of Frank's best guitar here. This era is when Frank started getting 'better' at guitar.
Cleetus is a funny little tune, this is comedy music. The music sounds funny. Nothing wrong with that and damn does it sound cool.

Eat That Question is a classic jazz-rock tune, George Duke is all over this one. A little march at the end, some fanfare. This song rocks.

The album ends with one of Frank Zappa's most beautiful tunes, Blessed Relief. A slow, relaxed tune that allows the listener to reflect, as well as hear Frank rip your heart out, and George Duke reach into your soul, and whoever is playing trumpet (Sal Marquez?) plays a nice solo too. This song alone makes it a masterpiece, and yet, it doesn't really reflect the overall sound of the album, yet it does. I don't know. The Grand Wazoo is a great album, a masterpiece even. One of my favorites for sure.

Good posthumous albums to check out from this time:
Wazoo - live album of the Grand Wazoo band
Imaginary Diseases - live album of the "Petitie" Wazoo band
Joe's Domage - only for completists, features rehearsal of Wazoo tour material
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 11, 2016, 05:25:44 AM
Thanks for your response, great read! And you're right, both, but Wazoo mainly, are great albums. Synths had been a part of Zappa's arsenal for a couple of years though, I believe on Chunga for the first time, but Fillmore has a great Moog solo.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Cyclopssss on February 11, 2016, 07:26:23 AM
I must admit to my shame, that besides the Grand Wazoo, I wasn't familiar with the Waka/Jawaka and Studio Tan material until I purchased the 'Lather' three discc set. Before that I wasn't too much into the 'jazzy/wanky stuff, but those tracks proved me wrong. Greggary Peccary was pretty gooffy, but a tour-de-force nonetheless.  Not to jump ahead too much tho.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: darkshade on February 11, 2016, 10:47:28 AM
Thanks for your response, great read! And you're right, both, but Wazoo mainly, are great albums. Synths had been a part of Zappa's arsenal for a couple of years though, I believe on Chunga for the first time, but Fillmore has a great Moog solo.

Haha, you're right. Chunga's again. What an underrated album.

I must admit to my shame, that besides the Grand Wazoo, I wasn't familiar with the Waka/Jawaka and Studio Tan material until I purchased the 'Lather' three discc set. Before that I wasn't too much into the 'jazzy/wanky stuff, but those tracks proved me wrong. Greggary Peccary was pretty gooffy, but a tour-de-force nonetheless.  Not to jump ahead too much tho.

Well, this is the era that Greggary Peccary first appeared live, so you're not exactly jumping ahead. This piece was worked on all through the 70s until completed on Lather/Studio Tan, though that version was never performed live, I think. There's a few pieces on later albums that first appeared in this era: Regyptian Strut, Greggary Peccary, Rollo, Approximate (the Wazoo version gets real funky!) and tunes that never appeared on a Zappa album (which can be found on Imaginary Diseases)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: SebastianPratesi on February 11, 2016, 03:43:55 PM
I've only listened to Zoot Allures, so I guess I'll have to wait a while to join the discussion.

Also: I know Zappa was prolific - but 16 albums in only 7 years? My God!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 11, 2016, 04:01:34 PM
I've only listened to Zoot Allures, so I guess I'll have to wait a while to join the discussion.

Also: I know Zappa was prolific - but 16 albums in only 7 years? My God!

Or you can listen to a lot of great music and join the discussion!  :D
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: SebastianPratesi on February 12, 2016, 10:24:58 PM
I've only listened to Zoot Allures, so I guess I'll have to wait a while to join the discussion.

Also: I know Zappa was prolific - but 16 albums in only 7 years? My God!

Or you can listen to a lot of great music and join the discussion!  :D

Well, I'm still sort of hypnotized by The Astonishing, so maybe later. Luckily,a couple of stores around my area have some of his albums (mainly his earlier ones), so I might pick one or two up.

I've been meaning to do so for a long time. I think this will be the year.

Meanwhile, I'll read through the thread - I think I might learn a thing or two.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Podaar on February 13, 2016, 04:15:16 PM
Sebastian,

You can listen to every album mentioned so far (except 200 motels) on Spotify.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: darkshade on February 13, 2016, 04:43:43 PM
Listening to Imaginary Diseases. What a great album. One of the best posthumous albums, easily, maybe THE best. What I forgot is that Farther O'Blivion (not to be confused with Father Oblivion from Apostophe (') which is a completely different song) is actually the other "half" of The Adventures of Greggary Peccary, which was essentially 'merged' with the arrangement from the Wazoo era. It has some of the "New Brown Clouds" parts as well as other themes, but this version has a beautiful tuba solo (yes, tuba) and this album overall has a lot of great jams, probably the "jammiest" Zappa album. Been a while since I've heard some of these albums. This discography thread has been great, and has been mostly moving at a great pace.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: SebastianPratesi on February 13, 2016, 05:04:52 PM
Sebastian,

You can listen to every album mentioned so far (except 200 motels) on Spotify.

Thanks for the heads up! I'll check them out then.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Mosh on February 13, 2016, 07:13:36 PM
Got busy too. I love both the Waka Jawaka and Grand Wazoo albums. Among his best, a shame we didn't get more material from that period.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: darkshade on February 14, 2016, 07:57:09 AM
Got busy too. I love both the Waka Jawaka and Grand Wazoo albums. Among his best, a shame we didn't get more material from that period.

Check out Wazoo and Imaginary Diseases, especially the latter, for more material.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Orbert on February 14, 2016, 08:11:31 PM
I listened to The Grand Wazoo today, CD version, all the way through.  Still love it.  Still not a big fan of "For Calvin" but it was okay.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 15, 2016, 01:43:47 AM
I'm loving the fact that there's more response now that there's more time to listen to this album. I will write up Over Nite very soon, maybe I'll leave that one open for a bit more than a week too.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: KevShmev on February 15, 2016, 07:54:19 PM
Whenever I am in the mood for some Zappa, The Grand Wazoo is one of my go-to albums of his. Just a great listen from start to finish. :hat
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #16 'The Grand Wazoo'
Post by: darkshade on February 15, 2016, 09:23:11 PM
Whenever I am in the mood for some Zappa, The Grand Wazoo is one of my go-to albums of his. Just a great listen from start to finish. :hat

Agreed, it's just one of those albums. A lot of 'those' albums are coming.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 18, 2016, 11:40:53 AM
Official Release #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
(Released 09/1973)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/17_OVER-NITE.jpg)


Background Information:
The first 7 years of Zappa’s career had been quite the rollercoaster. Starting as a teenage combo, ready to show the world what real music and entertainment was, disbanding that combo when times were getting better, struggling with the new band, being thrown off stage, and spending the best part of a year in a wheelchair, Zappa was now all better again. He was ready again to show the world how pop music should sound. It is quite clear that this record (and the simultaneously recorded follow-up Apostrophe) were among his most hit-ready of his career.
In contrast to the early Mothers, Zappa now could use a band able to sight read his music, and perform it with a certain flair as well. His own guitar playing had improved as well, and he was confident enough to put it in the center of the attention at times.
The sound of the record is crisp, very modern and defined, the band sounds great, and a really notable addition are the background vocals. Zappa needed some background vocalists on this record, his then road manager (probably Marty Perellis) suggested Ike and the Ikettes. Ike Turner was adamant that they would be payed 25 dollars per song. Zappa apparently added that he wrote quite difficult music, and that an hourly wager would be better, but Ike wasn’t going to change his mind. In the end Ike decided he didn’t like the music at all, and the group shouldn’t be credited.
Lyrics wise, this record focusses mainly on sex, but with a couple of crazy lyrics and I’m The Slime being the only political song on this.

The Album Itself:
Although this album is stylistically homogenic (which is still a rare thing for Zappa) it does feature a lot of stuff that Zappa was known for. Blazing guitar, funny lyrics, great arrangements. The album is short, at under 35 minutes, but all 7 tracks would become Zappa classics.
Although the album wasn’t praised by the media in the 70’s it would later be named one of Zappa’s best albums.

Essential Tracks:
I’m The Slime
Zomby Woof
Dinah-Moe Humm
Montana 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Podaar on February 18, 2016, 11:58:25 AM
An absolutely essential album, in my book, with only "Fifty-fifty" being the slight dip in the proceedings. Classic, classic Frank!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Orbert on February 18, 2016, 12:08:21 PM
I like this album, but don't love it.  I know it's an important one, and in many ways this one set the mold.  Seven songs, superbly arranged and tightly played.  No rambling instrumentals or bizarro avant-garde experimentation, no extended show pieces.  Pretty much the first "normal" Zappa/Mothers album, in that it's just a collection of songs.

There are moments that I really like, but overall the songs themselves, while funny, generally don't really work for me.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: DebraKadabra on February 18, 2016, 12:08:34 PM
I didn't say anything about Waka or Wazoo because I'm not familiar with them at all. DEFINITELY familiar with Overnite Sensation though. Really really REALLY solid album, and has some great rockers on it. I really can't name a track on it that lacks anything, honestly. Favorites--I'm the Slime, Dirty Love, Montana.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: bout to crash on February 18, 2016, 08:57:24 PM
I've been embarrasingly absent from this thread because I'm a slacker, but love this damn album. Slime, Dinah-Moe, Montana, Camarillo... such a fun record.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: KevShmev on February 18, 2016, 09:01:27 PM
I like this album, but don't love it.  I know it's an important one, and in many ways this one set the mold.  Seven songs, superbly arranged and tightly played.  No rambling instrumentals or bizarro avant-garde experimentation, no extended show pieces.  Pretty much the first "normal" Zappa/Mothers album, in that it's just a collection of songs.

There are moments that I really like, but overall the songs themselves, while funny, generally don't really work for me.

Could not agree more.  If I force myself to listen to it, it sounds like a nice album, but there is nothing on there that grabs me.  Even looking at the track listing now, the main hook in Montana is the only part of the album I can remember (and I've listened to this enough to where more should resonate).
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 19, 2016, 12:02:19 AM
I like this album, but don't love it.  I know it's an important one, and in many ways this one set the mold.  Seven songs, superbly arranged and tightly played.  No rambling instrumentals or bizarro avant-garde experimentation, no extended show pieces.  Pretty much the first "normal" Zappa/Mothers album, in that it's just a collection of songs.

There are moments that I really like, but overall the songs themselves, while funny, generally don't really work for me.

Could not agree more.  If I force myself to listen to it, it sounds like a nice album, but there is nothing on there that grabs me.  Even looking at the track listing now, the main hook in Montana is the only part of the album I can remember (and I've listened to this enough to where more should resonate).

Oh really, that's funny. I feel like I know every part of that album. And on the contrary to what you said, I've always thought this album has a couple of the most memorable tunes Zappa has ever done.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: DebraKadabra on February 19, 2016, 01:36:09 AM
I totally, completely agree N-M.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Podaar on February 19, 2016, 06:58:16 AM
Yeah, I don't get the not memorable. I could easily sing "Camarillo Brillo" in it's entirety (and when I hit the shower I think I will) it's so catchy. Not to mention "Dirty Love", "I'm the Slime", "Montana" and the ever catchy

Dinah-Moe Humm
Dinah-Moe Humm
Where's the Dinah-Moe
Coming from
I done spent three hours
And I ain't got a crumb
From the Dinah-Moe
Dinah-Moe
From the Dinah-Moe Humm


I love all the conceptual continuity crumbs on this album and I think it has some of the best comedy moments as well. The whole Alpo dog food stuff and the introduction of the "Arf" poodle. This line may be the funniest ever recorded, "I whipped off her bloomers and stiffened my thumb, and applied rotation on her sugar plumb". Not to mention "Montana", the whole song is hilarious lyrically and jaw dropping musically.

I'll stop with the fan boy post but, I think y'all should watch this video to grasp the true brilliance of this album.

Asphalt Orchestra Plays Zombie Woof (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b-Kwa2IJtE)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Orbert on February 19, 2016, 07:01:32 AM
I'm the Slime is a cool concept.  I like the idea, and Frank's guitar sound is amazing.  I've actually heard it on the radio here in Chicago more times than one might guess, and I'll never switch it off.  It's probably my favorite from this album.

Camarillo Brillo is catchy, and a lot of the lyrics stand out and are funny, but to this day, I have idea what the "story" is.  She said she was a magic mama.  Okay.  Dirty Love is a demented love song, or maybe "lust song" is a better description, as far as I can tell.  But the slow beat and one-note lyrics don't excite.

Zombie Woof is another "meh" song.  Catchy, well-played, but again I have no idea what the fuck it's about.  Dinah-Moe Humm, another wacky sexy song.  I do like the surprise twist ending.  Not long after first hearing this song, I dated a girl who was similarly "orgasm impaired" but gah dam, her sister was absolutely stunning.  Okay fine, I'll say it; I wanted to do dirty wonderful things to her sister, wondered if that was what it might take to get her off, and came very close to suggesting it.  But I wimped out.

Montana is another fun concept that just doesn't seem enough to support a whole song.  Dental floss tycoon.  Ha ha, okay.  But basically a single joke for six and a half minutes?

And then it's over.  Again, there's nothing "wrong" with the album, it just doesn't really grab me.  Which is weird because the songs are definitely catchy.  But I need more than that.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Podaar on February 19, 2016, 07:13:25 AM
Say, could I interest you in a pair of zircon-encrusted tweezers?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: darkshade on February 19, 2016, 07:39:25 AM
The Roxy era!

Over-nite Sensation is funky Frank. This is when Frank went "commercial". Classic Frank Zappa also appeared on this album for the first time, witty, humorous, just the right amount of cynicism and sarcasm. I didn't appreciate this album right away, I preferred the follow ups Apostrophe and One Size Fits All. Over time I've really gotten into this album and love it for what it was. An accessible album as only Frank could make, as there are plenty of crazy parts throughout, Fifty Fifty, Montana, but what made this album popular back in the early-mid 70s was the controversial (and very funky) Dirty Love, and Dinah Moe Humm. The lyrics might not seem as crude in 2016, but in 1973 they were.

This album, though, is not the best Zappa album, but I'd argue this is one of the best albums for a noob to check out, it doesn't scare off the listener within the first 2 tracks, it's catchy, features great solos and improv, and gives you a dose of that classic Zappa sound (think Montana), along with Frank's voice being very prominent, with humorous topics, and another singer, Ricki Lancelotti, who only appears on this album (and The Lost Episodes)

It should be noted, that this album is preceded by another 'era' of Frank, between the Wazoo era; the '73 band with Jean-Luc Ponty, Sal Marquez, Tom Fowler, Bruce Fowler, Ralph Humphrey, Ruth Underwood, Ian Underwood, and George Duke. Probably the most serious jazz-rock line-up besides Mahavishnu Orchestra or Miles Davis' early 70s lineups. There is a lot of great music from that era.

Albums to check out (not many):
Road Tapes Venue #2 - great sounding official posthumous release.
Piquantique the sound is poor, though. (the main show (1973/08/21 Stockholm, Sweden) is available in Soundboard (SBD) from Zappateers--it sounds way better)
One Shot Deal - Only on a couple of tracks performing Yellow Snow; also features the Wazoo lineups as well (and other eras).
1973/06/25 Sydney, Australia is another full show in SBD from Zappateers, with good sound.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: bout to crash on February 19, 2016, 11:16:12 AM
Orbert, regarding your thoughts on the Montana lyrics: I can't remember where I read this (maybe The Real FZ Book?) but at one point Frank said that often, when a song was silly lyrically, his focus was meant to be more on the music (and vice versa- songs with deeper meaning were often simper musically). Montana I think is a good example because it is very cool musically (Those horns and vibe! That guitar solo! And the Ikettes!). The lyrics personally crack me up (this was also the song I played while entering MT for the first time in Yellowstone) but those aside it's still excellent IMO.

Camarillo Brillo always felt like sort of a more bizarre (and less violent) version of Norwegian Wood to me :lol

(Autocorrect wanted that to say Norwegian Woof, weirdly enough)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Orbert on February 19, 2016, 11:35:14 AM
Yeah, I'm probably not being fair to Montana (the song, that is).  Sometimes the lyrics really are just there to be there and make it a song and not an instrumental.  If it's an instrumental, it doesn't have to be "about" anything, it's just a musical expression.  But if you have even a single verse, the first thing people do when trying to determine the meaning of the song is examine the lyrics.  With Frank, it's probably unfair to take that approach.

Many of us are familiar with Frank's disdain for Carlos Santana, but like it or not, they do share one rather important characteristic.  Carlos once said that he writes songs so he can take guitar solos.  Every Santana song has a guitar solo, because it's his band and he plays guitar.  It seems to me that a lot of Frank's stuff is like that.  Maybe it's more the music in general, but the idea of the lyrics being "just words, so you can call it a song" and being mostly subservient to the music isn't that far off.  It just so happens that Frank was insanely creative and since he was gonna have lyrics, he made them funny or weird so they'd at least not be boring.

Hmmm... I kinda forgot what my point was.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Podaar on February 19, 2016, 01:09:06 PM
I've never really thought about there being a "point" to any of Frank's pseudo-cartoon-montage lyrics. I've always just taken them as just an interesting idea or absurd painting (like some of the album covers) that represent the music. From this album, Camarillo Brillo (although there is a small story in this one), Zomby Woof, and Montana all fit in with this aesthetic IMO. Practically everything from (') fits as well. I've just always enjoyed them for what they are, I suppose.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: bout to crash on February 19, 2016, 05:02:17 PM
Yeah, I agree. Some of them are pretty silly but that never bothered me. I didn't know he had a disdain for Carlos, but I never much got into Santana so...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Orbert on February 19, 2016, 09:10:42 PM
In an interview one time, Frank was asked about his chord progressions, why they're so different, and Frank said something about how it's not that his are different, it's that everyone else's are all the same.  I don't remember the exact wording, and I know I'm getting it a bit confuzzled with a common cliche, but that was the idea.  Frank hated the I-IV-V progression, and especially hated the V-I resolution, but they're mainstays of Western music.  Separately, around that same time, a good friend of mine went to a Santana concert, and thought it was pretty good, but apparently Carlos' idea of jamming out a song -- because back then, the live version of a song was at least twice as long, with all the guitar soloing -- was to go into a I-IV-V blues and repeat it for ten minutes.  He said it was all great jamming, great soloing, but because it all dissolved into the same thing, 12-bar blues, it all sounded the same.  Then Frank had a track on one of his live albums called "Variations on the Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression."  That cracked me up.  I guess I put the various pieces together in my head, and arrived at the conclusion that Frank was mocking Carlos for his overuse of the basic blues progression.

It took me years to figure it out, but a huge amount of Frank's music is blues based.  Back then, it was just rock, but of course rock and roll is rooted in rhythm and blues.  Then I read about how much Frank hated the I-IV-V, and I thought that that didn't make any sense, since so much of his music, especially the guitar solos, comes directly from blues.  Somehow, Frank played blues, but never used standard progressions.  Blues based on Varese, blues based on Stravinski fer cryin' out loud, but never blues in a standard 12-bar pattern.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 23, 2016, 09:08:26 AM
What I love about Zappa's improvisations, as will become obvious on Guitar, Shut Up And Play Yer Guitar and others, is that most of his soloing is over a vamp of 1 chords. I understand the fact that he thought blues was boring, and 12 bar blues especially, but it's not that most of his soloing was over a difficult chord structure. I like it though, so it's not a bad thing.

About the lyrics: I remember reading somewhere that he was never into lyrics (The Real FZ Book was my first thought too) but that to sell anything he would have to write lyrics. He even said that he would've liked more to just make jazz and classical music, but he needed rock music to do the other stuff. I never really know how to judge that. I'm sure he put a lot of work in the rock stuff too, I mean it's complicated, well rehearsed, and to be honest most of his output was rock music. So it's not like it's a commercial side-track or anything.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Ultimetalhead on February 23, 2016, 01:07:18 PM
I love Over-Nite Sensation. It's probably my least favorite of the so-called Roxy era, but it's phenomenal anyway. Zomby Woof's intro has the most "fuck you" rhythm in the history of music. Really, the whole thing is brilliant musically, but it's a little lacking in the lyrics department. Particularly Dinah.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: bout to crash on February 23, 2016, 02:08:25 PM
Buns up!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: darkshade on February 23, 2016, 04:11:46 PM
I love Over-Nite Sensation. It's probably my least favorite of the so-called Roxy era, but it's phenomenal anyway. Zomby Woof's intro has the most "fuck you" rhythm in the history of music. Really, the whole thing is brilliant musically, but it's a little lacking in the lyrics department. Particularly Dinah.

To me, Roxy & Elsewhere and One Size Fits All took the humor, funk,and catchy melodies, and combined it with some seriously serious compositions and beautiful prog arrangements, and increased the jazz influence.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: sneakyblueberry on February 23, 2016, 05:47:14 PM
montana is brilliant.  love the ikettes section, such an awesome vocal part. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Cyclopssss on February 24, 2016, 01:52:37 AM
Fantastic album, but as some have said, for me also the least of the 'Roxy' band era. The start of another classic era Mothers formation and it starts with a bang.
Finally Zappa seems to have found a commercial way to bundle his humor and combine it with an extremely talented band, culminating in a set of songs that would become Classic concert favourites to Zappa fans all over the world. My personal favourites are '50-50', Dirty Love, I'm the slime, Camarillo Brillo, Montana, Dinamoe Humm and Montana.  Oh, damn, that's all of them!  ;D

The best was best to come with Apostrophe ' and One Size Fits All, though. Not too fond of the artwork, this time around though.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: DragonAttack on February 24, 2016, 02:26:04 PM
It had been 10+ years since I had listened to 'Just Another Band From LA', until I saw this thread.  Listening to each LP as they are mentioned.  Sensation has more than its share of moments.  Not the greatest overall, but that doesn't matter.  There's enough meat in it for a second or third helping.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 25, 2016, 12:34:27 AM
It had been 10+ years since I had listened to 'Just Another Band From LA', until I saw this thread.  Listening to each LP as they are mentioned.  Sensation has more than its share of moments.  Not the greatest overall, but that doesn't matter.  There's enough meat in it for a second or third helping.

Hey man! Welcome, join the fun!

Moving on to Apostrophe, trying to write it up today.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: jammindude on February 25, 2016, 06:23:34 AM
Spinning Overnite on the way to work just because of this thread.   :metal
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: DragonAttack on February 25, 2016, 09:02:11 AM
One of the best commercials ever.  By a Zappa fan perhaps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmgice3ieZ4
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Orbert on February 25, 2016, 10:19:42 AM
Great Googly Moogly!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 25, 2016, 10:34:11 AM
Spinning Overnite on the way to work just because of this thread.   :metal

Posts like this make me happy!  :)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #17 'Over-Nite Sensation'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 01, 2016, 11:18:27 AM
It had been 10+ years since I had listened to 'Just Another Band From LA', until I saw this thread.  Listening to each LP as they are mentioned.  Sensation has more than its share of moments.  Not the greatest overall, but that doesn't matter.  There's enough meat in it for a second or third helping.

Hey man! Welcome, join the fun!

Moving on to Apostrophe, trying to write it up today.

Well, that didn't work  :lol Today or tomorrow!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 01, 2016, 12:04:58 PM
Official Release #18 'Apostrophe (')'
(Released 03/1974)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/18_APOSTROPHE.jpg)


Background Information:
Part two of Over-Nite Sensation, or something like that. Written mostly during the same sessions, stylistically similar and commercially successful.
Although parts of this album date back to the Hot Rats sessions (Excentrifugal Forz) and the Grand Wazoo sessions (Uncle Remus and Apostrophe), most of the album was written and recorded simultaneously with Over-Nite Sensation.


The Album Itself:
Side one opens with a suite, where all the succeeding tracks loosely follow a concept, but there’s no overall theme. The Yellow Snow Suite was performed during a couple of tours, but it changed a lot in those few years. Side one concludes with Cosmik Debris, a great track that would be performed on numerous tours, often with an awesome guitar solo halfway. It’s one of Zappa’s more bluesy tracks, one could even think that it’s a parody.
Side two is a different beast. Excentrifugal Forz is a short track, mainly a long verse over a single chord, only broken up by a face tearing short solo by Frank.
Apostrophe is a long jam track, harking back to the fusion days of Hot Rats and Waka/Jawaka. The fuzz bass in the title track is very much up front. About the recording of that track, Zappa later said: “I found it very difficult to play with him [Jack Bruce]; he's too busy.” 
Uncle Remus actually has a beautiful chord progression, and could be considered one of Zappa’s most poppy songs.
The album closes with Stink-Foot, another bluesy song, with funny lyrics,  another one that would be played a lot during later tours.


Essential Tracks:
Don’t Eat The Yellow Snow Suite (tracks 1-4)
Cosmik Debris
Stink-Foot
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 01, 2016, 12:11:46 PM
I can start off by stating an unpopular opinion. I don't actually really like this album. Yellow Snow is cool but was way better live (with added funniness) and apart from Stink Foot and Cosmik Debris, there's not much good stuff on this album. I know most Zappa fans would name this one of his best, but I don't really think it is.

Apart from that, funny story: I'm a high school music teacher, mainly teaching kids aged 11-14. A colleague of mine teaches kids aged 16-18, and he was teaching them about experimental rock. He asked me to take an hour of their time, and tell them everything I know about Frank Zappa. Naturally I couldn't fit everything in an hour, but it was great fun to do. They were genuinely surprised by his massive output and his diversity. Next week he's starting with symphonic and prog rock, so I opted to be a guest speaker again.  :)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Orbert on March 01, 2016, 01:10:45 PM
You're right; that's an unpopular opinion.  But if it doesn't grab you, it doesn't grab you.

I like it because I think it's pretty solid all the way through, but it's also pretty short, just under 32 minutes, so it doesn't overstay its welcome.  Its brevity might also be considered a detriment, because there's really not much here.  So again it comes down to whether or not you like what you get.

The opening Nanook suite is many people's introduction to Frank, and although it wasn't mine, I do remember hearing it on the radio a lot in the 70's.  Yes, that's right; Zappa's Nanook suite, or sometimes just the opening track, on the radio.

I love Cosmik Debris.  So bluesy that it might even be parody?  I've never even considered that.  Just Frank getting down and dirty.  Excentrifugal Forz has never really thrilled me, but it's short and kinda fun, then dives right into the title jam, of which I love every second.  Uncle Remus is awesome, of course, with that great chord progression, and then Stinkfoot with more bluesy fun.  So except for Excentrifugal Forz, I consider this one solid all the way through.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 01, 2016, 03:04:26 PM
I´ll respond more in length later on, but I´ll just say now that it´s absolutely one of my fave Zappa records. There´s an increddible 20  minute live version of ´Nanook rubs it´ (except for the middle ´poetry recital part, that is) where the harmonies in the end (na-na-na-na-na-nabuko....) are amazingly terrific, with a band that was about 50% down with flu as well....  :omg:
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 02, 2016, 12:03:34 AM
I´ll respond more in length later on, but I´ll just say now that it´s absolutely one of my fave Zappa records. There´s an increddible 20  minute live version of ´Nanook rubs it´ (except for the middle ´poetry recital part, that is) where the harmonies in the end (na-na-na-na-na-nabuko....) are amazingly terrific, with a band that was about 50% down with flu as well....  :omg:

Yeah that's a great one (On YCDTOSA 1) I love Australian Yellow Snow too, that's on One Shot Deal.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 02, 2016, 12:04:23 AM
You're right; that's an unpopular opinion.  But if it doesn't grab you, it doesn't grab you.

I like it because I think it's pretty solid all the way through, but it's also pretty short, just under 32 minutes, so it doesn't overstay its welcome.  Its brevity might also be considered a detriment, because there's really not much here.  So again it comes down to whether or not you like what you get.

The opening Nanook suite is many people's introduction to Frank, and although it wasn't mine, I do remember hearing it on the radio a lot in the 70's.  Yes, that's right; Zappa's Nanook suite, or sometimes just the opening track, on the radio.

I love Cosmik Debris.  So bluesy that it might even be parody?  I've never even considered that.  Just Frank getting down and dirty.  Excentrifugal Forz has never really thrilled me, but it's short and kinda fun, then dives right into the title jam, of which I love every second.  Uncle Remus is awesome, of course, with that great chord progression, and then Stinkfoot with more bluesy fun.  So except for Excentrifugal Forz, I consider this one solid all the way through.

Yeah, the brevity is a thing. I really like a lot of stuff on this album, but there's a couple of tracks that don't do it for me, and then you've already only have 22 minutes of music left.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 02, 2016, 04:10:58 AM
Apostrophe rates as an excellent Zappa record for me, despite of its bizarre subject matter. Favourites will always be the entire side one, with the increddible drum and percussion parts on St. Alphonzo's Pancake Breakfast and the great Cozmik Debris, (also an instant live favourite with loads of lyrical deviation later on). Side two is quite a different beast, however, I for one love Exentrical Force, and ADORE Uncle Remus. The piano work by Duke is magnificent and the backing vocals exquisite. Album closer 'Stinkfoot' is a classic Zappa-send-up, and do we hear the first official appearance of 'Evelyn, a modified dog' here? (see One Size Fits All). There are brilliant live versions to be found spread out all over Zappa's discography, from the YCDTOSA series, to The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life, to Make A Jazz Noise Here to Broadway the hardway, each of them interesting in its own right. The playing, especially on the first four songs on side one, is extremely tight and the 'Roxy' band cemented its reputation with this release. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Orbert on March 02, 2016, 06:37:39 AM
Part two of Over-Nite Sensation, or something like that. Written mostly during the same sessions, stylistically similar and commercially successful.
Although parts of this album date back to the Hot Rats sessions (Excentrifugal Forz) and the Grand Wazoo sessions (Uncle Remus and Apostrophe), most of the album was written and recorded simultaneously with Over-Nite Sensation.

Over-Nite Sensation was a Mothers album, Hot Rats was a Frank Zappa album, The Grand Wazoo was a Mothers album, and this was a Frank Zappa album.  There's a huge amount of overlap in the musician lineup, often the same actual band, and of course Frank wrote and arranged nearly every note.

What, therefore, is the difference between a Mothers album and a Frank Zappa solo album?  Did Frank ever come out and define that for us, say what kind of rationale he used in deciding how to categorize it?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 02, 2016, 06:41:42 AM
Wow, never even thought of that! That's a good point!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 02, 2016, 11:28:05 AM
Part two of Over-Nite Sensation, or something like that. Written mostly during the same sessions, stylistically similar and commercially successful.
Although parts of this album date back to the Hot Rats sessions (Excentrifugal Forz) and the Grand Wazoo sessions (Uncle Remus and Apostrophe), most of the album was written and recorded simultaneously with Over-Nite Sensation.

Over-Nite Sensation was a Mothers album, Hot Rats was a Frank Zappa album, The Grand Wazoo was a Mothers album, and this was a Frank Zappa album.  There's a huge amount of overlap in the musician lineup, often the same actual band, and of course Frank wrote and arranged nearly every note.

What, therefore, is the difference between a Mothers album and a Frank Zappa solo album?  Did Frank ever come out and define that for us, say what kind of rationale he used in deciding how to categorize it?

I don't believe I ever read an interview with him explaining that. It is a good point actually. Especially in this period it seems totally random. Maybe Darkshade has a clue?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 02, 2016, 01:41:41 PM
I know there were problems with the production/ or distribution company somewhere around that time, Bizarre/Straight? Could that have something to do with it?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: KevShmev on March 02, 2016, 08:50:46 PM
Love this record.

That bass line that kicks in when the vocals start in Father O'Blivion is freaking sick.  :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: darkshade on March 04, 2016, 01:36:45 PM
Aposstophe is a Zappa classic. I always liked the Yellow Snow suite and Cozmic Debris, but didn't get into side 2 much until years later. The title track has Jack Bruce from Cream on bass, and that track rocks.

Part two of Over-Nite Sensation, or something like that. Written mostly during the same sessions, stylistically similar and commercially successful.
Although parts of this album date back to the Hot Rats sessions (Excentrifugal Forz) and the Grand Wazoo sessions (Uncle Remus and Apostrophe), most of the album was written and recorded simultaneously with Over-Nite Sensation.

Over-Nite Sensation was a Mothers album, Hot Rats was a Frank Zappa album, The Grand Wazoo was a Mothers album, and this was a Frank Zappa album.  There's a huge amount of overlap in the musician lineup, often the same actual band, and of course Frank wrote and arranged nearly every note.

What, therefore, is the difference between a Mothers album and a Frank Zappa solo album?  Did Frank ever come out and define that for us, say what kind of rationale he used in deciding how to categorize it?

I don't believe I ever read an interview with him explaining that. It is a good point actually. Especially in this period it seems totally random. Maybe Darkshade has a clue?

Marketing?

The 60s Mothers are the only "real" Mothers of Invention to me. After the 60s Mothers broke up, it's been all of Frank's bands. Not that Frank didn't basically write all the music back then either (he did, mostly) but the band was a band of peers, with Frank as the leader. After that it was always Frank Zappa and The Mothers, instead of The Mothers of Invention. I file all Mothers and Zappa under "Frank Zappa" in my music folder, because it's all Zappa.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Orbert on March 04, 2016, 02:02:03 PM
So no real definitive answer.  That's kinda wacky.


(https://i.imgur.com/GNeVlNA.jpg)

Anyway, when I was little, my uncle (whose name was Howard, not Remus) had a little jockey statue on his front lawn.  Whenever we'd visit, I always liked seeing the little jockey statue on the lawn.  One year, when we got there, someone had bashed him in the face, taking off part of his nose and exsposing the bare cement.  By the next time we visited, it had been painted over.

Years later, after exposure to Zappa, Apostrophe, and "Uncle Remus", I wonder if that's what had happened.  Someone tried to knock the jockey down, but it was cemented in place quite firmly, so they only succeeded in damaging it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 05, 2016, 02:06:22 AM
 :lol

It's pretty obvious btw that I don't really like the tracks that haven't got an awesome live version in addition to the studio track. Most of Zappa's stuff got better live, including this album. Yellow Snow, Cosmik Debris and Stink Foot all three are among the best stuff Zappa has ever recorded, mostly, for me, because of the live versions on later albums. Excentrifigal Forz and Apostrophe both don't really seem like 'live' songs, but I guess Uncle Remus must've been played on a tour, right? But I guess it wasn't because of all the other awesome material from that period.

EDIT: Apparently it was played ONCE during the 1973 tour, listening to a bootleg now, and I guess I can see why it didn't fit in that tour. It seems George Duke would segue in and out of it during Dupree's Paradise. You can hear that in the only complete version there is to find:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ge_9s2dXo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ge_9s2dXo)
Great to hear them going back into Dupree's Paradise after 'I'll Be Gone'

https://globalia.net/donlope/fz/songs/Uncle_Remus.html (https://globalia.net/donlope/fz/songs/Uncle_Remus.html) Furthermore it was performed with Captain Beefheart on the Bongo Fury tour, and a couple of times in 1988, but I don't think I'm interested in Bobby Martin playing George Duke's piano parts on that 80's keyboard.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 05, 2016, 03:18:07 AM
BTW Orbert, this is a quote by 'Foggy G', in a book called 'The songs that were played 'we're only in it for the touring''
(For those of you who care again- inspired by this song, we use to drive around Beverly Hills while in high school, and knock all the jockeys off the rich peoples lawns. In your honor, George and Frank!)

Was that statue by any chance in Beverly Hills?  :o
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Orbert on March 05, 2016, 07:18:24 AM
Nah, it was in Warren, Michigan, a suburb of Detroit.  A nice little middle-class neighborhood, certainly not "rich" or upper-class.  My dad said he'd gotten it as a joke.  My Uncle Howard had a nutty, eccentric side to him.  On the garage door was a huge, beautiful 3-D rendering of the family name ("Moy"), the Chinese character.  It was sweet.  And the jockey on the lawn.  I didn't realize for many years that it was a jockey.  I just thought it was a statue of a little man.  Five years old, I had no context.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: darkshade on March 07, 2016, 05:58:46 AM
I'm a little surprised by the lack of discussion on one of Frank's most popular albums.

On the topic of live versions, I always thought the studio version of The Yellow Snow suite was the best version, though I find live versions pretty great, and unlike the studio version, includes Rollo -the finale. I forgot why Frank didn't include it on Apostrophe. It was played by the Wazoo bands, 73 band with Jean Luc Ponty, and later bands...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 07, 2016, 06:26:48 AM
I'm a little surprised by the lack of discussion on one of Frank's most popular albums.

On the topic of live versions, I always thought the studio version of The Yellow Snow suite was the best version, though I find live versions pretty great, and unlike the studio version, includes Rollo -the finale. I forgot why Frank didn't include it on Apostrophe. It was played by the Wazoo bands, 73 band with Jean Luc Ponty, and later bands...

I'm not sure WHY he left it off, but I read that he did decide it at the final moment. It's not like the album was nearly full or anything  :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Podaar on March 07, 2016, 09:15:38 AM
I was 12 years old and was hanging out at my buddies house when I first heard the "Yellow Snow Suite". I used to enjoy sitting in the living room and playing chess against his Dad (Chuck) who would ruthlessly stomp me every chance he got. Chuck had the best stereo I've ever heard and it included those iconic Bose 901 speakers. It was a real treat to listen to music at their house.

Anyway, we had the radio tuned to the local FM Album station "Stereo X", while Chuck was schooling me, when frozen wind began to blow. I remember Chuck getting a strange look on his face and leaned back in his seat while he listened along. He wasn't a very demonstrative fellow so he just sort of smiled at the humorous lyrics until Frank burst forth with, "He was delighted as it stiffened, and ripped right through his sock." Chuck guffawed! I'd never heard him laugh out loud like that. It made a huge impression on me.

The very next day, the Apostrophe (') album was sitting on the top of console when we came home from school.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 10, 2016, 09:41:21 AM
I love reading stories on how you guys got to know Zappa's music, and I expect to read a lot of them in these couple album discussions.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Orbert on March 10, 2016, 11:41:07 AM
I've got a few stories coming up.  I don't know how interesting they'll be, but I'll share them.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Mosh on March 10, 2016, 10:00:30 PM
Wow I've missed a ton.

I have fond memories of both Overnite and Apostrophe.

Overnite was one of the first albums I bought on vinyl (the other was Tales From Topographic Oceans by Yes). It was my second Zappa album overall, I remember seeing the cover and thinking it looked familiar. I came home and was delighted to learn that this was one of the more popular Zappa albums and around the same era as One Size Fits All, which was the first album I heard by Frank. For the next month or so I listened to this non stop. I love how accessible yet complicated all the tunes on here are. It's a sweet balance that I don't think Zappa ever hit again. Take Montana for example, great catchy blues rocker and then out of nowhere you get that Ikettes bridge. That blew my mind! I also really dig the Fifty Fifty instrumental section in particular. You can tell the band had a lot of fun on this one in particular. There's a few songs on here that were performed live quite a few times later on, but I can still come back to these studio versions and enjoy them a lot. The only song I can't get into is Dinah Mo Humm, a classic example of the humor overshadowing the musical content a little too much for my taste. I also find Dirty Love to be a bit overlooked when discussing this album. Great tune.

Apostrophe is an interesting one for me. I remember picking it up and expecting my mind to be blown again with something comparable to Overnite. Even though these two albums come from similar sessions and band members, I think they're two completely different animals. Overnite has a particular sound to it and everything sounds really unified. Apostrophe is much more deviant though, especially on the 2nd side. There's a lot of different material here. Leftovers from Hot Rats, a jam with Jack Bruce, and a rare tune penned by someone other than Zappa (George Duke's Uncle Remus). Because of this, Apostrophe was a bit of a grower. It used to lose me after Cosmik Debris, but now I can appreciate the rest more. My favorite part is still The Yellow Snow Suite and Cosmik Debris, but that Apostrophe jam always tickles my eardrums too.

And once again, these are two Zappa studio albums that have several songs that are vastly improved live. Montana (although the original probably holds up the best out of these IMO), I'm the Slime, Cosmik Debris, and Stinkfoot are the big ones that come to mind. On the other hand, I haven't heard any live versions of Camarillo Brillo that beat the original for me.


Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Mosh on March 10, 2016, 10:05:20 PM
Part two of Over-Nite Sensation, or something like that. Written mostly during the same sessions, stylistically similar and commercially successful.
Although parts of this album date back to the Hot Rats sessions (Excentrifugal Forz) and the Grand Wazoo sessions (Uncle Remus and Apostrophe), most of the album was written and recorded simultaneously with Over-Nite Sensation.

Over-Nite Sensation was a Mothers album, Hot Rats was a Frank Zappa album, The Grand Wazoo was a Mothers album, and this was a Frank Zappa album.  There's a huge amount of overlap in the musician lineup, often the same actual band, and of course Frank wrote and arranged nearly every note.

What, therefore, is the difference between a Mothers album and a Frank Zappa solo album?  Did Frank ever come out and define that for us, say what kind of rationale he used in deciding how to categorize it?

I don't know but personally I get more of a solo album vibe from Apostrophe than Overnite. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Overnite material mostly the same lineup throughout with the addition of extra vocalists on certain songs? Apostrophe on the other hand switches up the instrumentation a bit more. You have the power trio on the title track, the Frank/George Duke duet on Uncle Remus, and whatever the lineup is on Excentrifugal Forz. Plus all the guests he brought on for it (even some original Mothers make an appearance).  So to me Apostrophe sounds like a blend of different groups and material while Overnite sounds more like a unified band effort.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Orbert on March 10, 2016, 10:47:16 PM
That makes sense.  Looking at the track listings and credits more closely, the Zappa solo stuff is more like you might see on anyone else's solo albums.  Leftovers, unique appearances by guest musicians, oddball stuff, etc.  The Mothers albums do seem to be more ensemble efforts.  But with Frank basically in charge of everything, he would assemble things as he saw fit.  Eventually, we'll see that he abandoned The Mothers as a concept, and it was all Frank Zappa music.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: darkshade on March 11, 2016, 07:12:38 AM
That makes sense.  Looking at the track listings and credits more closely, the Zappa solo stuff is more like you might see on anyone else's solo albums.  Leftovers, unique appearances by guest musicians, oddball stuff, etc.  The Mothers albums do seem to be more ensemble efforts.  But with Frank basically in charge of everything, he would assemble things as he saw fit.  Eventually, we'll see that he abandoned The Mothers as a concept, and it was all Frank Zappa music.

I believe the next 3 albums would be the last ones labelled Frank Zappa & The Mothers.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Orbert on March 11, 2016, 10:27:09 AM
It makes a certain amount of sense.  Even by this point, The Mothers was whatever group Frank decided it was.  The original lineup was already a distant memory, the Flo & Eddie lineup a more recent memory but still clearly a different band, and now we have the group often referred to as "the Roxy" band, but again it's pretty different from any previous lineup in terms of character.

It's kinda like what Robert Fripp does with King Crimson.  He does solo stuff, he collaborates with people, but only certain groups are called King Crimson.  Fripp has gone on record saying that the group must have certain characteristics (none of which I can recall now, though most people could probably guess some of them) in order for the band to be "worthy" of the name King Crimson.  I just wondered if Frank had ever come out and said what he saw as the difference between a Mothers album and a solo album.  It seems that we've pretty much worked it out, and it's nothing surprising, but a word or two from the man himself would've been cool.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Ultimetalhead on March 11, 2016, 11:55:01 AM
God I love Apostrophe. It's easily one of my favorite albums of all time, let alone Zappa. The Yellow Snow Suite is pure money. Zappa's solo on Cosmik Debris is possibly my favorite he's ever thrown down. The tempo change into 4/4 right after the solo is sexier than hell. The title track is a massively sick jam as well. And that's not even mentioning Uncle Remus which has to be George Duke's finest moment.

I could seriously gush about this album all day. It's fucking timeless.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Mosh on March 11, 2016, 12:01:25 PM
And I would argue that the Roxy band was Zappa's last with a distinct style and core personalities. After that everyone was a lot more interchangeable. Something that was lacking in his later work IMO.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #18 'Apostrophe (')'
Post by: Orbert on March 11, 2016, 12:17:23 PM
Good point.  Another reason why the later music was all Frank Zappa, whereas The Mothers was a band (okay, a couple of different bands) with a distinct sound.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 15, 2016, 12:45:59 PM
Official Release #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
(Released 07/1974)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/19_Roxy_Elsewhere.jpg)


Background Information:
Three legendary shows in the Roxy Theatre in Hollywood (and a couple of ‘elsewheres’) capture the energy and extreme musicianship this band had. The last two albums were greeted positively by the press and the fans, and Zappa was on a roll in terms of touring. Although this album was only released 10 months after Over Nite Sensation (and only 4 months after Apostrophe) not a single track of either of those albums was used on this live album. Amazingly, after 9 albums in the past 5 years, Zappa came up with a double album of mainly unreleased material, which shows his incredible work rate. After two records of semi-radio-friendly prog rock (Zappa style), it could’ve been wise to record a live album either of those tracks, or at the very least in that same style. However, Zappa being Zappa, he chose to do it all differently, and most songs on this live album is among the most difficult stuff he has ever recorded. Partly because the band were testing each other out, increasing the tempo of certain songs each night, making stuff like Echidna’s Arf (which is difficult enough in its normal tempo) impossible to play.

The Album Itself:
There’s a nice mix of funny and difficult on this album. It seems Zappa took the funny bits and topics of his last two albums, and put them into really difficult pieces. Tracks like Dummy Up reminisce of the Flo & Eddie stand up comedy, while Village Of The Sun could’ve been on Ruben & The Jets (well, not stylistically, but more in terms of feel).
The album has a couple of tracks that seem to be halfway funny and difficult, songs like Penguin In Bondage, and Cheepnis are both very laughable, but incredibly difficult to play.
And then there’s the big biceps showers, the sixpack-on-the-beach of Zappa-music. Echidna’s Arf (Of You) and Don’t You Ever Wash That Thing? are two extreme pieces, but back to back they never fail to amaze. The theme of the Be-Bop Tango could very well be the most dense piece of writing in Zappa’s oeuvre, he even announces it as a ‘hard one to play’ (and that is saying something!).
There was however a breather in this show, and a very wonderful one. Son Of Orange County/More Trouble Every Day is a ballad in every way, which is very rare, even in Zappa’s incredibly massive output.

Essential Tracks:
Penguin In Bondage
Echidna’s Arf (Of You)
Cheepnis
Son Of Orange County
Be-Bop Tango (Of The Old Jazzmen’s Church) (essential part is from 1:00 - 5:00)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Orbert on March 15, 2016, 02:22:01 PM
Sitting in my friend Chris' room after school smoking non-tobacco, he pulled out his brand new copy of Roxy & Elsewhere and we listened to it.  My brain has never been the same (and it wasn't because of what we were smoking).

We'd already played together in the school bands since fifth grade (four years earlier) and a few crappy garage bands, so despite not exactly having a huge amount of experience in the area, I think even then we had a decent understanding of what it's like to play live music, and how extraordinarily difficult this music was.  I was into Yes, Genesis, and ELP; he was into Mahavishnu Orchestra and others; but impressive as all of those groups were and are, we agreed that The Mothers still took it to another level.  They intermixed insane musicianship with sketch pieces, and were brilliant at both.  They combined horns, electric guitars and keyboards, and tuned percussion, and flowed seamlessly from unison runs to harmonies and syncopation and back again over and over.  There was clearly a reason why they were called "The Mothers".

I soon picked up my own copy of Roxy & Elsewhere, and to this day it's my favorite Zappa/Mothers album.  I've always had a rule about only playing LP sides at a time, and when I eventually got the CD (thanks, Nancy!) I ripped each "side" together into a single track, so I have never actually listened to individual tracks from this album, and likely never will.  The intro patter by Frank that introduces each side is great, and is as much a part of the performance as anything else.

I was thrown for a loop just recently, having bought The Roxy Movie blu-ray for myself for Christmas.  Chris and I always marvelled at how amazingly the band could turn on a dime, and it seems that some of it was editing magic.  But in a way, I traded one marvel for another, because the editing on this album is almost flawless.  It's always bugged me just a little bit how you can hear the splice coming out of the solo and going into the end of "More Trouble Every Day".  But that's literally the only flaw in a full CD, a double LP worth of music.  The edits in "The Be-Bop Tango (of the Old Jazzman's Church)" is truly flawless.  Hearing the raw footage was eye-opening on mutiple levels.

Okay, I'll stop for now.  I cannot say enough about this album.  It's a freaking masterpiece, and always the one I recommend as the starter point for someone looking to get into Zappa/Mothers.  Not just because it worked so well for me, but because I'm positive that it'll work for anyone (anyone with the potential to get into Zappa/Mothers, that is, which sadly is not everyone).
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 15, 2016, 03:20:23 PM
Totally and completely agree with you. A masterpiece, and one that I will recommend to anyone. To me, this is the definitive highlight of Zappa's records. (Well at least the ones that he himself put out, after his death there have been some great great releases too)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Mosh on March 15, 2016, 07:22:43 PM
I'm listening to Roxy as I type this.

I might've mentioned this on here before, but I don't really have the connection to this album that most Zappa fans have. Not to say it's bad, but I heard The Helsinki Tapes first which contains most of the material on Roxy and more. So when I finally got to Roxy, it felt like a lesser version of what I already heard. So this,
Totally and completely agree with you. A masterpiece, and one that I will recommend to anyone. To me, this is the definitive highlight of Zappa's records. (Well at least the ones that he himself put out, after his death there have been some great great releases too)

is more how I feel about The Helsinki Tapes. I think the big kicker for me is of the unique tracks on both albums, I'd take the ones on Helsinki. Stuff like RDNZL and (imo) the definitive Inca Roads.

With that out of the way, Roxy is still a great album. It's still the Zappa band. The slower versions of these songs took some time to get used to, but IMO a lot of music loses something when sped up too much, and this material is no exception. So once I finally got used to the new tempos, I started noticing a lot of new things to appreciate about these tunes, especially Village Of the Sun. In general this is something I love about Zappa's music, no matter how many times he records a song, there's always something new to take from it. He never played the same thing twice. Compare this to a band like Dream Theater who strive to sound as close to the album as possible, which is admirable in its own right, but lacks the zaniness and unpredictability of a Zappa show.

On the other hand, I still feel like Don't You Ever Wash That Thing drags a little bit, although the solos on this recording are awesome.

I really like how the vinyl version of this album is divided. Like Orbert, I can't really imagine listening to it any other way. It's like each side is its own suite. Everything flows together really well.

It really can't be said enough, the musicianship in this band was incredible. They could play impossible written music but were also pros when it came to improvisation. They really fused together what you'd expect from the top musicians in the jazz, rock, and classical genres. Listening to this stuff never fails to blow my mind. This time around I'm really appreciating the rhythm section. There are a lot of killer bass lines and drum fills on this album.

I love how seamlessly Oh No goes into Trouble Every Day. Very interesting revamp of those songs.

Overall, a very fun album that deserves its legendary status, even if my go to album for this band is YCDTOSA 2.






Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Orbert on March 15, 2016, 09:32:39 PM
The one you heard first and/or are most familiar with is usually the one that sounds "right" to you.  I have You Can't Do That On Stage Any More, Volume 2 (The Helsinki Concert), and while it's great, I feel like by time they got to that concert, they were so comfortable with the music they there were literally seeing how fast they could play it, and sometimes messing around just a bit too much, which is interesting, but usually I'd rather they "just play the song".  The songs are amazing as they are; sure it's impressive playing them super fast, but
Quote
IMO a lot of music loses something when sped up too much, and this material is no exception. So once I finally got used to the new tempos, I started noticing a lot of new things to appreciate about these tunes, especially Village Of the Sun.

That actually sounds to me like an endorsement of the Roxy recordings over the Helsinki recordings.  Or am I misunderstanding?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Mosh on March 15, 2016, 11:06:06 PM
Quote
IMO a lot of music loses something when sped up too much, and this material is no exception. So once I finally got used to the new tempos, I started noticing a lot of new things to appreciate about these tunes, especially Village Of the Sun.

That actually sounds to me like an endorsement of the Roxy recordings over the Helsinki recordings.  Or am I misunderstanding?


I think it's more that when I listen to the two versions, I appreciate them differently. When I hear the insanely fast Helsinki recordings, I'm mostly in awe of the sheer technicality and chaotic yet precise nature of them. When I listen to the Roxy recordings, I can appreciate the musicality a little bit more. The melodies, the rhythms, the way the horns and rhythm section are interacting with each other. That there's more to these songs than musical acrobatics. Not that the Helsinki recordings are devoid of any musicality or the Roxy recordings aren't impressive, but that's just what sticks out to me more when I listen to them.

It's hard to say which of the two versions of each song I prefer because they both bring different strengths. But that's one of the best parts of Zappa, we can talk about two albums with a large overlap in material but they're still completely different.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 16, 2016, 01:07:56 AM
Seeing Stage 2 being mentioned makes me think of how many great stuff there is to come. I instantly thought of Roxy by Proxy and Roxy the Movie, but Stage 2 is another great recording of this band.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 16, 2016, 04:30:27 AM
A lot has been written about this album and to this day, it remains one of my very favourite Zappa/Mothers albums.
Others have already mentioned the increddible musicanship and abillity of the band and the difficult material.

I wanna talk about how many times my jaw dropped to the floor when I first played this record. Pooooiiiing....'She's just like a pinguin in bondage, boy.... oh yeah, oh yeah...oh!'

Wait...WHAT!? That was my reaction, in a nutshell. How does one even think of something like that for a subject for a song? Pygmy Twilight...similar. Dummy up....too many jokes to mention.
The awesome fantastic atmosphere on Village of the Sun. When this band does slow down and play gentle, it really shines in my opinion, the same with the version of Son of Orange County. The way Napoleon Murphy Brock sings the lyrics on that one, 'and in your dreams...you can SEE yourself....SAVING the world..' It doesn't get any better. I dont'have to point out the out-of-this-world-ness of the next two tracks. Seeing it being played on the finally released movie is a pleasure. The whole Cheepnis Pre-amble coupled with the song always had someting magical in my mind while I listened to it. I could actually SEE Frunobulax destroying the world in my mind's eye. This version of Trouble Every day cemented its position of favourite for me. Bebop Tango is something that was never all to special for me, just a bit of 'fun' to be had. Watching that part on the dvd made me cringe a lot of the time. I guess you had to be there. Roxy and Elsewhere is something to behold. 


Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 16, 2016, 05:28:51 AM
Bebop Tango is something that was never all to special for me, just a bit of 'fun' to be had. Watching that part on the dvd made me cringe a lot of the time. I guess you had to be there. Roxy and Elsewhere is something to behold.

Can't you appreciate the crazy theme of the song? It's actually a pretty old theme, first played as a tango in the middle part of Farther O'Blivion. But it is totally mental, and, like I said, in my opinion among the most difficult and 'out-there' stuff Zappa has written.

There's actually an entire study on the Be-Bop Tango, I've gotta look that up somewhere. It's about all the crazy rhythms and most of all the bitonality in most of the parts that, apparently, makes this stuff even crazier.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 16, 2016, 07:13:35 AM
I like the pedestrian beat part of the song, with Duke singing the notes and the audience having to dance to it, but the latter part 'anything you wanna do' is a bit too simple for my tastes. It sounds like a throw-away part. Or maybe it's just improvised, that might explain it. I do however, appreciate the fun that comes across from the track. I just would have loved a good version of 'Dickie's such an asshole' or even 'Cozmik Debris' in its place. The versions from that periods that are on YCDTOSA are fantastic, as are the 'outtakes' I'm the Slime, Big Swiftie,  Ruthie-Ruthie, Babbette, Smell my beard, The booger man and such, which I all prefer to Bebop Tango.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Orbert on March 16, 2016, 07:18:31 AM
I'm just the opposite.  Not only is the whole thing a great buildup, with the pedestrian beat, but then he gets the audience up on their feet and they're expecting to try to twitch around, and instead he hits them with some heavy R & B, perfect to dance to.  The concert ends with everyone dancing.  I love it.

Also:

"George, make them dance"

Dit!

"No, no..."
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on March 16, 2016, 09:45:12 PM
One of the finest live albums of all time.  Is that an understatement?  :laugh:
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: DebraKadabra on March 16, 2016, 10:51:05 PM
Love this record.

That bass line that kicks in when the vocals start in Father O'Blivion is freaking sick.  :hefdaddy :hefdaddy

OH MY GOD yes. Nailed it.

Anyhoooooo... back to Apostrophe (') briefly. Good good record, but I believe I actually prefer the YCDTOSA Vol. 1 version of Yellow Snow MUCH better than the studio version, and UNLIKE Cy I LOVE the poetry vamp. :lol Favorites:  Yellow Snow suite, Cozmik Debris, Stink Foot.

NOW.

On to the beautimous... spectaculous... Roxy & Elsewhere. I cannot say more glowing things about this album other than it's probably not only one of my favorite live records of all time, but that it's also probably in my Top 50 somewhere. Speaking of that.... :lol

Anyway, my one VERY small complaint about Roxy is how The Bebop Tango seems to be cut short towards the end (where Frank gets everyone to stand up and dance to George Duke's twitchy keyboard playing/singing, then the song just jumps to the band jamming at the end--at least on the Ryko rerelease) but trust me... VERY minor complaint. Turn on the bubble machine... God, is that a cheap bubble machine... Jazz is not dead; it just smells funny. :lol :lol :lol

I also love how Napoleon Murphy Brock is in EXCELLENT form vocally on this record, and More Trouble Every Day... mmm. Tasty. I could gush on and on about my love of this album but y'all get it. Do any of you love monster movies? I LOVE monster movies. I simply adore monster movies and the cheaper they are, the better they are. :lol

Smoke THAT?
Have I ever lied to you? (Frank laughs) Have I ever seen you before?
I don't even know you! I don't even know what that is, and you want me to SMOKE it??!!!
:rollin

Favorites:  Screw that, the whole album is so killer. :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 17, 2016, 03:23:01 AM
^^^^

All of that.  :biggrin: All the more vexxing, that a mere two years later Frank disbanded this fabulous ensemble.....  :facepalm:
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 17, 2016, 07:59:46 AM
Haha, I laughed out loud reading the Bubble Machine thing. That's a great part. And even more awesome seeing the actual bubble machine, after all those years.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Orbert on March 17, 2016, 09:23:42 AM
Absolutely!  And it was indeed a cheap bubble machine. :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 17, 2016, 12:13:26 PM
Apart from quoting Zappa all the time in my classes (I'm a sorta high school music teacher), I'm trying to quote him as much as possible during shows too. I remember a gig where there was a smoke machine standing right between me and the bass player. And the think was a much a smoke machine as a 80 year old cigar smoker with a cold. So I turned to him and said 'God, is that a cheap smoke machine', and he just stared off, knowing that it must've been Zappa. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Orbert on March 17, 2016, 12:24:01 PM
There is no wrong time for a Zappa quote!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: DebraKadabra on March 17, 2016, 11:04:00 PM
Haha, I laughed out loud reading the Bubble Machine thing.

BOOYAH! :biggrin:

There is no wrong time for a Zappa quote!

As long as it isn't destined to take the place of a mudshark in your mythology. :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Orbert on March 17, 2016, 11:17:55 PM
Plook me now!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 18, 2016, 12:29:06 AM
Fick mich! Du miserabler Huhrensohn!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 18, 2016, 01:01:16 AM
Why does it hurt when I pee? Ouch!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 19, 2016, 01:34:34 AM
So no more on one of the best live records of all time, one of the highlights of this Discography thread? I'm already looking into the next one, and I'd like to mention that I've bought Electric Don Quixote yesterday. A Zappa biography, and though most of it seems to tell the same story as every other Zappa biography (it's a biography), there could be some fun facts in it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: DragonAttack on March 19, 2016, 10:27:58 AM
Going back an album, I gave 'Apostrophe' a spin last week.  It brought back good memories of listening to it in the early 90s with friends, and the constant references we'd make to it at work, as well as when we'd be out in the snow. ;)   Always thought it was from the late 70s/early 80s because of the amount of times I heard it. 

Listened to the Roxy for the first time while semi-watching hoops Thursday night after reading your comments.  A fun and amazing ride.

As is this thread.  Thanks.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 19, 2016, 11:49:00 AM
Going back an album, I gave 'Apostrophe' a spin last week.  It brought back good memories of listening to it in the early 90s with friends, and the constant references we'd make to it at work, as well as when we'd be out in the snow. ;)   Always thought it was from the late 70s/early 80s because of the amount of times I heard it. 

Listened to the Roxy for the first time while semi-watching hoops Thursday night after reading your comments.  A fun and amazing ride.

As is this thread.  Thanks.

Thanks for the kind words! I love doing this :)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Mosh on March 22, 2016, 10:18:42 PM
Speaking of Roxy I just got an email from ZFT and apparently they're showing the Roxy Movie at the Denver Alamo Drafthouse tomorrow night followed by a Q&A with the guy doing the upcoming Zappa doc! I go to school right by the theater so I'm gonna try my best to make it down and I will definitely be reporting back. Very excited  :metal
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Orbert on March 22, 2016, 10:36:26 PM
Since time machines don't exist yet, the next best thing is to see a concert vid of these guys on the big screen.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Mosh on March 22, 2016, 11:48:07 PM
My thoughts exactly.

I want to ask the documentary guy a question but I haven't thought of anything. Any ideas?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 23, 2016, 12:56:40 AM
Well, I'd love to know if he is allowed to release stuff that digitalizes that's now in the vault. The main goal (apart from making the doc off course) of the kickstarter, is digitalizing everything that's in the vault. But that won't be very useful if it isn't then released. I'd love to know if, and how much and by what rate everything will be released.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Mosh on March 23, 2016, 07:36:41 AM
That's a really good question, I wonder the same thing. I think it would be really cool to have something like a digital museum, where you can pay a premium and then stream it. Like a Zappa spotify.

But I might not be able to ask that because there was a huge blizzard last night and the city is totally shut down.  :( I'm not sure what the status of the movie is, but if they go on with it I probably won't be able to go. I guess it'll just have to be Roxy on the small screen tonight.  :corn
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Orbert on March 23, 2016, 08:22:28 AM
Bummer.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 24, 2016, 03:36:49 PM
Was going to update today, but didn't manage to. See you guys next week for One Size Fits All!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Mosh on March 26, 2016, 08:46:38 AM
So I saw Batman v Superman last night and during the credits I noticed two familiar names: Bruce and Walt Fowler! Doing further research finds they've both done orchestrations on a ton of movies. Didn't know that.

www.imdb.com/name/nm0288670/
www.imdb.com/name/nm0288812/
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #19 'Roxy & Elsewhere'
Post by: Orbert on March 26, 2016, 08:07:35 PM
That's pretty cool!  :tup
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 05, 2016, 10:21:49 AM
Official Release #20 'One Size Fits All'
(Released 06/1975)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/20_ONESIZEFITSALL.jpg)


Background Information:
This was to be the final Mothers Of Invention record. The Roxy line-up (Napoleon Murphy Brock on vocals, Tom Fowler on bass, Ruth Underwood on percussion, George Duke on keys and Chester Thompson on drums), in all their glory. Recorded between December 1974 and April 1975, this music was recorded over a year after the Roxy performances. The songs however were songs that featured in the tour, and had been (re)recorded in the studio at the end of the tour (there were no shows between December 1974 and April 1975, apart from one New Years Even show in Long Beach)
One Size Fits All sits in between Apostrophe and Roxy on the musical complexity scale. This album has both the intense, extremely fast runs (ending of Inca Roads, for example) and the groovy solo’s (Po-Jama People). Zappa tried once again to make his complex music appeal to a bigger audience. According to Rolling Stone, Zappa even said “You could actually dance to this record”. And dance you can.

The Album Itself:
The record starts off with Inca Roads, one of the thoroughly arranged songs Zappa has ever released. It’s incredibly well organized. Florentine Pogen and Andy are a couple of tracks that are stylistically similar to the Prog Rock fest that is Inca Roads.
San Ber’dino, Po-Jama People and Can’t Afford No Shoes are all three country rock type tracks. The acoustic piano is apparent, vocals are important and they feature Captain Beefheart (credit as ‘Bloodshot Rollin’ Red’) on harmonica. Apart from the long guitar solo in Po-Jama People, these three tracks are more song-like, in terms of structure too.
Evelyn, A Modified Dog is a strange narrated story over an ‘odd-time-signatured' piano. It’s possible to think that Zappa was mocking the world of Prog Rock, with their bizarre stories, odd time signatures and weird breakdowns.
The remaining two tracks are Sofa No. 1 and Sofa No. 2. These songs had been featured ever since the Flo and Eddie days, with the German language featuring a lot in the shows of that band. These two tracks make the album more of unity, which is very rare in Zappa records, the reprise at the end will, again, please the Prog fans. Fun fact: SOFA is actually an anagram of the first letters of One Size Fits All.


Essential Tracks:
Inca Roads
Po-Jama People
Florentine Pogen
Andy
Sofa No. 2
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: Orbert on April 05, 2016, 11:50:58 AM
Ah, take me back to where it all began...

Summer of 1974 for me was the summer between elementary school and junior high.  At the time, all I had was an AM/FM clock radio, but it was my gateway to new worlds.  Late at night, I could tune in AM broadcasts from hundreds of miles away, and often did, just to hopefully catch them saying where they broadcast from.  Detroit, Toronto, Manitoba... and many places I'd never even heard of.

FM didn't have the range, but had better audio quality.  I figured that out very quickly.  The local FM station had "The Midnight Album Hour" when they'd play a new album at midnight, all the way through, without commercials.  And the expansion of my adolescent mind continued.

One Size Fits All was the Midnight Album one night.  Thanks to Deep Purple's song "Smoke on the Water", everyone had heard of Frank Zappa and the Mothers, but the number of people who had actually heard them was much smaller.  That night, I became one of the privileged second group.  I still remember hearing "Po-Jama People" and being blown away by it.  To this day, I still use the expression "Hoy, hoy, hoy!" for nothing in particular.  There are just certain situations which call for it; you just have to know.  I also remember "Evelyn, A Modified Dog" and those glorious chords, and the sudden ending "Arf! she said".  I finally tracked down the sheet music last year some time, and performed "Evelyn, A Modified Dog" for a friend of mine and his girlfriend at her house.  There aren't that many people who could appreciate a live performance of that song.  A few weeks later, I played the opening arpeggio (which is just a wacky E7) leading into a song in A in church.  I know, it was only the opening arpeggio, but it has a very specific structure to it, and I nailed it.  It doesn't matter that I was the only person in the room who knew it.  I played Zappa in church.

The album itself.  I love it, though that is largely because of sentimental value.  I agree with Nihil-Morari's "Essential Tracks" but I'll play this one all the way through every time.  Overall, I like this one better than Over-Nite Sensation, its sibling of sorts, though nothing will ever top Roxy & Elsewhere because I just love the energy of and craziness of live performance, and hearing Frank introduce the songs and talk about them a bit is awesome.  But this one will always have a special place for me.  You always remember your first time, and this one came at the perfect time, at the dawn of my musical, mental, and physical maturity, all rolled into one.  It is literally true that part of who I am today is because of this album.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: sneakyblueberry on April 05, 2016, 03:26:25 PM
A few weeks later, I played the opening arpeggio (which is just a wacky E7) leading into a song in A in church.  I know, it was only the opening arpeggio, but it has a very specific structure to it, and I nailed it.  It doesn't matter that I was the only person in the room who knew it.  I played Zappa in church.

Brilliant! :lol

This is probably my favourite Zappa album, and it holds a lot of great feelings.  Every time I play it it reminds me of driving around in my first car, sun shining, windows down, blasting the shit out of Inca Roads and enjoying the weird looks from people on the street.  Fantastic album. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: Cyclopssss on April 06, 2016, 04:09:03 AM
This album was an instant favourite of mine. All the songs on it are amazing. Inca Roads is increddible with that eerie keyboard sound evoking landing spaceships and a guitar solo that was lifted from a live recording from a tv special. Florentine Pogen has some fantastic vocal work by Brock and Duke. Pojama People is just stanking nasty groove. Andy has breathtaking vocals in the fast parts 'is there anything good inside you, if there is I really wanna know' with the response: Something....anything.... San Berdino has to be my favorite of all of them. The story harkens back to the early days when Frank was running a sound studio making 'specialised audio recordings' . One day he was commisioned to make a fake pornographic recording by a guy he later realised must have been an under cover cop. So he hired the help of a cute redheaded lady, set up the mics, and they  went about jumping around on the matress and making 'sex-noises' (or so he claims). When he finished the tape and went to the guy to do the transaction he got busted and spent ten days on a misdemeanor  in 'Tank C' of the San Berdino county jail. His description of the circumstances were very real. Topping the fine song off were some excellent flame vocals of one of his musical idols, Johnny Guitar Watson. I actually love Sofa n# 2 because again some fantastic vocalising by Duke and the entire athmosphere of the song. Evelyn, a modified dog, finally is a great 'out there' piece probably improvised at the piano one day.   
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: Mosh on April 07, 2016, 11:00:38 AM
While my story isn't as cool as Orbert's, this was also my first Frank Zappa album. I had recently gotten into the likes of Dream Theater, Rush, and Genesis and had a craving for more "challenging" music. One name that frequently came up was Zappa but I wasn't really sure where to start, there was so much material out there. I somehow came across Inca Roads and it was exactly what I was looking for. Fast forward a few weeks and I came across One Size Fits All at a music store and picked it up immediately. The album blew my mind, it was unlike anything I had ever heard. The songs were catchy, FZ was using chords that I didn't hear often but I really liked (I'd later learn that it was the Sus2 chords that grabbed me), but there was a jazzy complexity that was both satisfying and different from what the proggers were doing. I was instantly a Zappa fan and began the ongoing quest of hearing as much Zappa music as I can get my hands on.

The album itself, while maybe not the strongest effort of this era, still holds a special place for me obviously. I don't think it would be a stretch to call this the proggiest Zappa album. Inca Roads is a long tune but apart from the solos, it's pretty tightly composed. Even the solo sections had a bit more going on than what you typically get from Zappa (usually some sort of blues vamp). There's also Andy, which has a lot of unexpected twists and turns. The buildup toward the middle of that song is very reminiscent of Genesis. No improvised sections in there either, it's all very tightly composed.

The synthesizer sounds on this also really contribute to that proggy sound as well. They seem to replace the horn sections in a lot of places, giving an almost Rick Wakeman vibe. And of course the overdubbed guitars in Sofa are very reminiscent of Queen.

Worth noting that this is an early example of Zappa's extensive use of xenochrony, the technique of mixing and matching various recordings to make a new recording. Inca Roads is almost all xenochrony, with the basic tracks and George Duke's solos being from a TV appearance (later released as A Token of His Extreme), and the guitar solo being from the Helsinki Concert later released as You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Vol 2. I remember the first time I listened to that album and having my mind blown when I realized the guitar solo was the same one on OSFA. This was the recording that Frank alluded to in the liner notes. Cool stuff.

Po-Jama People is a song I often forget about, but it's currently playing now and I'm loving it. At the time I was interested in the complex proggy stuff like Inca Roads, so I wasn't very interested in the bluesy Po-Jama People at first. i've definitely come to appreciate it more.

Recently though when I listen to One Size Fits All material, I don't usually put this album on. I'll go for The Helsinki Tapes or The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life. Token Of His Extreme is good too. I often mention how the studio albums mostly contain material that was done better on a live album, and this is no exception, but I think OSFA is one of the better studio albums. Using basic tracks from live recordings was a very good idea and a lot of the studio overdubs really give the album a special flavor that you won't get with a live disc. It reminds me of We're Only In It For the Money, another album that still holds up even with a lot of the material being reproduced live many times.

The only song here I never really cared for is San Ber'dino but there is still some cool stuff there. Mostly Johnny Guitar Watson and the vocal harmonies.

The Sofa songs are cool, although it's hard to beat the New York version with the horn section.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 09, 2016, 12:51:58 PM
Great to hear people liking this album. Are there followers of this thread who hadn't heard this one yet?
BTW, I believe I once read that Zappa was recording this album at the same time as 'the follow up', but since Zoot Allures is next in the discography, it couldn't have been that one, right? Or could it?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: Mosh on April 09, 2016, 12:59:45 PM
Isn't the next album Bongo Fury? That would make more sense, since it is material from the previous tour/band. Zoot Allures is a brand new band.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 09, 2016, 01:25:22 PM
Ah sorry yes, I meant Bongo Fury. Makes sense now  :lol Though Bongo Fury isn't exactly a Roxy band album, it's an easier link to the last couple of records.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: Mosh on April 09, 2016, 01:28:36 PM
Yea, it's a bit more transitional as far as the lineup goes. According to Wiki, the studio tracks are from the same sessions that produced OSFA.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 18, 2016, 12:37:06 AM
So it appears that more weeks does not mean more discussion  :lol I believe I'm also getting less busy, so let's get this thing going again at 1 album a week.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: Orbert on April 18, 2016, 06:37:42 AM
Were you waiting for more discussion to spontaneously happen?  I guess I didn't understand how it's supposed to work.  :|  When I do discographies, I just kinda let discussion runs its course, and if things seems to have fizzled out, move on.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 18, 2016, 06:48:11 AM
Were you waiting for more discussion to spontaneously happen?  I guess I didn't understand how it's supposed to work.  :|  When I do discographies, I just kinda let discussion runs its course, and if things seems to have fizzled out, move on.

Well, I thought that I'd take 2-3 weeks for more popular albums, so that people could catch up if they'd only want to participate in those albums. (Apart from the fact that I didn't have the time to continue  :big grin: ) Moving on to Bongo Fury today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #21 'Bongo Fury'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 18, 2016, 07:00:50 AM
Official Release #21 'Bongo Fury'
(Released 10/1975)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/21_BONGOFURY.jpg)


Background Information:
Partly recorded on tour in 1975, and partly recorded in the studio during the One Size Fits All sessions, this is a remarkable album. Firstly because it features lifelong Zappa friend/nemesis Don van Vliet a.k.a. Captain Beefheart on vocals, secondly because it’s the last of the Roxy-band albums.
Don van Vliet was a childhood friend of Frank, and there are tapes as old as 1958 of those two jamming. And while both were incredible musical talents, their characters clashed a lot. Like Zappa, Captain Beefheart was known to expect a lot from his fellow bandmates (possibly more in a dictatorial way than Zappa ever did), and it’s imaginable that these two couldn’t work together for long. In a Bongo Fury special in Prog Magazine (ed. 57) Mike Barnes cites an interview with Zappa by the BBC ‘Don had the ability and inclination to sign any piece of contractual paper shoved under his more without comprehending what these papers said […] it was at that time that I put him in the band to do the Bongo Fury tour’.
That piece has a number of great quotes from those days, including one from Denny Wally: ’Rehearsals with Don were not your average rehearsals. His attention span was about a second.’ The relation between Zappa and Beefheart soon got worse when they spent a lot of time on the road. Their love for music was the only thing keeping them together from time to time. In the end, just before Zappa died, they made up by playing each other records they listened to as teenagers down the phone.

Another important name on this record is Terry Bozzio. The cute little drummer would become a long Zappa collaborator, and would turn out to be one of the biggest discoveries Zappa made.

The Album Itself:
This album is more bluesy than a regular Zappa record. The sound of Beefheart’s voice makes it a one of a kind record in Zappa’s entire discography. The result is that it’s a bit of an acquired taste record, and does not really fit in the rest of the Roxy era. Yes, the band is roughly the same, and yes, there are songs that don’t feature the Captain, but overall this album is stylistically different from say Apostrophe or One Size Fits All.
This record however does contain a couple of songs that were used on later tours. Carolina Hard-Core Ecstasy was played later on as well as Advance Romance, but most of all Muffin Man became a regular concert closer in later tours, often featuring a maniacal solo by FZ.
There are two songs on this record that are spoken word pieces written by Captain Beefheart, ‘Sam with the Showing Scalp Flat Top’ and ‘Man with the Woman Head’.



Essential Tracks:
Carolina Hard-Core Ecstasy
Advance Romance
Muffin Man
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #21 'Bongo Fury'
Post by: Orbert on April 18, 2016, 10:08:33 AM
Although the connection is clear, I've never considered this one a Roxy Band album.  To me, it's either a one-of-a-kind thing because of Captain Beefheart, or transitional because of the presence of Denny Wally and Terry Bozzio, and the absence of all three previous percussionists (Chester, Ralph, and Ruth).  Or both.

Captain Beefheart is an acquired taste.  I checked out a few of his albums way back when, and found them to be interesting, but I never go back to them.  A little bit too "out there", and I don't really like his voice.  He's great on "Willy the Pimp" from Hot Rats, and I like some of his stuff here.  What makes it tough for me is that I really don't care for "Debra Kadabra", the opening tune.  When the first thing you hear when you put an album on is a track you don't like, you tend not to put the album on very often.

I do kinduv like where Captain Beefheart is coming from.  His spoken pieces are fun.  Not quite my thing, but fun.  "Opaque melodies that would bug most people" and "Sam was a basket case!" and my favorite "So this was a drive-in restaurant in Hollywood...  So this was a drive-in restaurant in Hollywood...  So this was a drive-in restaurant in Hollywood..."

One of my all-time faves, "Advance Romance" is what saves this album for me.  There are ups and downs, and there's no denying that this one is essential listening, but when I think of this album, in my mind it's one of the "lesser" albums.  It's a bit of a Frankenstein creation, as many if not most Zappa albums are, but this one never quite worked for me.  Which again is odd because of so many good bits.  It just feels unbalanced, and lacks the crazy jamming that I'd come to love about the mid-70's Mothers.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #21 'Bongo Fury'
Post by: Mosh on April 18, 2016, 05:07:22 PM
This is the first album so far I haven't heard. Will try to get to it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: KevShmev on April 18, 2016, 05:10:27 PM


Well, I thought that I'd take 2-3 weeks for more popular albums, so that people could catch up if they'd only want to participate in those albums. (Apart from the fact that I didn't have the time to continue  :big grin: )

Yowza, given that Zappa has like 1,342 albums, this thread will last until 2022 at this rate...:P :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #20 'One Size Fits All'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 19, 2016, 05:03:57 AM


Well, I thought that I'd take 2-3 weeks for more popular albums, so that people could catch up if they'd only want to participate in those albums. (Apart from the fact that I didn't have the time to continue  :big grin: )

Yowza, given that Zappa has like 1,342 albums, this thread will last until 2022 at this rate...:P :lol

Well, I was planning on taking at least two years, yeah  :D

It's nice to read that you feel the same about this one Orbert, I don't really like the opening track either, and I don't like Beefhearts vocals enough to play this album often.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #21 'Bongo Fury'
Post by: Mladen on April 19, 2016, 05:15:07 AM
I should check out this album, being that I'm a huge Beefheart fan.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #21 'Bongo Fury'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 19, 2016, 05:19:12 AM
Then you definitely should. Although Beefheart albums always went a bit too far for my tastes, and this doesn't, I can totally see why a Beefheart fan would dig this album. Tell us what you think!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #21 'Bongo Fury'
Post by: Cyclopssss on April 19, 2016, 07:23:41 AM
Bongo Fury is a bit of an odd-ball album, even for Zappa. It has some good moments, but a lot of it just falls flat and when it does, it's just bad.
This tour was something of a token of Frank's appreciation for Beefheart, and definetely an act of kindness towards the fledgeling Captain. Stories abound about how Beefheart would carry his world posessions around in big carrier bags which he would forget or leave behind in airports around the country. I can imagine that it started off as somewhat fun in the beginning of the tour, but I can't imagine being so much fun for the band as it wore on. This wasn't a match made in heaven and so it didn't last long.  It's definetely a work of an artist in transition again as Frank would prove with a much leaner version of the Mothers (but not really) on the next album, Zoot Allurs. This tour did however, increddible but true, provide us with the embryonic version of 'The torture never stops'.

Favourite tracks for me: Sam with the showing  scalp flat top, Carolina hardcore ecstasy, Advanced Romance, Muffin Man. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #21 'Bongo Fury'
Post by: Podaar on April 19, 2016, 04:53:49 PM
I'll schedule some time to listen to this tomorrow so I can contribute. I also need to gather some thoughts about One Size Fits All...one of my favorites.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #21 'Bongo Fury'
Post by: Orbert on April 19, 2016, 05:31:21 PM
You're falling behind, Mr. Peccary!  And you even had extra time.  What, do you have a life or something?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #21 'Bongo Fury'
Post by: Podaar on April 20, 2016, 08:45:04 AM
Spring time, Orbert, Spring time. Business, home, and Golf always demand more of my time in this time of year.

One run through Bongo Fury and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I'll need to listen more.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #21 'Bongo Fury'
Post by: Mladen on April 24, 2016, 09:16:48 AM
Not a bad album. Beefheart's bits are interesting, but I'm not sure about the rest. What I love about Beefheart's solo stuff is that his voice is very upfront, it's all about his own craziness. This time around, though, he's just one little piece of a puzzle, which means there's plenty of flavors I'm not too familiar with. It's probably going to need more spins.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 28, 2016, 04:34:57 AM
Official Release #21 'Zoot Allures'
(Released 10/1976)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/22_ZOOTALLURES.jpg)

Background Information:
A year after Bongo Fury, Zappa gathered a new band, and made Zoot Allures, a guitar-heavy album, stylistically very different from any record he made before. This is Zappa’s only Warner Bros. album, after bypassing Discreet Records (his regular label) when Zappa found out that the manager of Discreet, Herb Cohen, was taking more money than they had agreed upon. 
Originally this was intended to be a double album, but was shortened to fit a single LP. The sound of the album is different from earlier Zappa albums, and has a more punchy, rock-y type sound. Zappa himself played nearly all the instruments, with Terry Bozzio being the only other musician that features on all tracks. Most guest musicians are Zappa-aficionados: Roy Estrada from the early Mothers era, Ruth Underwood, Bruce Fowler and Napoleon Murphy Brock from the Roxy era, Captain Beefheart, trumpeter Sal Marquez and long time collaborator Ian Underwood.
Using all these guest artists, Zappa had a problem with playing this music live. The band portrayed on the album cover had nothing to do with the recording of the album (Eddie Jobson and Patrick O’Hearn don’t play on a single track), but more with the tour that was inevitable.

The Album Itself:
In terms of style, this album is more a rock-oriented album. Most tracks are between 3 and 5 minutes long, have vocals, and are relatively easy to sing along. The fact that this is album is mainly recorded in a studio makes it both a rarity in Zappa discography as well as ‘cleaner’. As Zappa played most instruments himself, everything is thoroughly arranged, and the final mix is really in-your-face.
There are three guitar tracks on this record, all three would become as good as standard in Zappa’s live shows in coming years: Black Napkins, Zoot Allures and (though it does have vocals) The Torture Never Stops. Then there’s a couple of song-oriented tracks: Wind Up Workin’…, Ms. Pinky, Find Her Finer, Wonderful Wino and Disco Boy. The only remaining track, and thus the only oddball is Friendly Little Finger, which is a xenochronic song, meaning the guitar solo was taken from a totally different recording (other tempo, possibly even another key and time signature) than the backing track.

Essential Tracks:
Black Napkins
The Torture Never Stops
Wonderful Wino
Zoot Allures
Disco Boy   
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Orbert on April 28, 2016, 06:31:04 AM
I always liked this album, and thought it was very "different" sounding, though I could never put my finger on why.  Your explanation certainly helps.  I never realized that Frank played almost all of it himself.  I did notice that this one's much more obviously a studio creation, which I suppose explains a lot of it.  I didn't know that Eddie and Patrick don't even play here.

"Black Napkins" is an all-time fave, as is "The Torture Never Stops".  Fun fact: My second college roommate, eventually the lead singer in our band, was rather vertically challenged, and one of his self-appointed nicknames was "Sinister Midget" which of course came from this song.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Tomislav95 on April 28, 2016, 07:37:26 AM
I said I'll follow this album but I joined after #21 albums :\ As I said, I know only few full albums and more songs (off Youtube) and I like his guitar-driven songs more than anything else so I may try this one :tup
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Mosh on April 28, 2016, 09:10:11 PM
Zoot Allures is a good one. It reminds me a lot of Chunga's Revenge, oddly enough. Transitional album that introduces us to a new band (or at least a new drummer, didn't know the other two guys weren't on it), lots of guitar centered pieces, almost all studio material. Also like Chunga, it is a mixed bag.

I like all the instrumentals, especially the title track and Black Napkins. The title track in particular is such a cool, hypnotic melody. Again, two songs that were even better on live recordings.

Torture Never Stops is a song that I'm a bit on the fence about, sometimes I enjoy it and sometimes I don't. Comes down to the recording I guess, but I've never really understood why this one became a staple.

Find Her Finer is a fun deep cut, but I highly recommend checking out the Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life, much superior version IMO.

Friendly Finger is like something off of Sheik Yer Bouti with the xenochrony. We're starting to get a glimpse at how zany Zappa would get with this technique.

Everything else is unremarkable, but enjoyable. Being heavily studio, this is a unique sounding album. It has a much more raw sound, I wonder how much attention Frank was paying to the punk rock movement that was happening.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: jammindude on April 28, 2016, 09:52:10 PM
Just a brief interruption...

I'm trying to start a campaign to get all classic rock radio stations to play "Trouble Every Day" on the 50th Anniversary of the release of Freak Out!, which will be on Monday June 27th 2016.   

See...and share...and spread the word...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_TayMEoBtI

We now return you to your regularly scheduled album discussion.  :xbones
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Orbert on April 28, 2016, 10:48:07 PM
So I was listening to Zoot Allures tonight, and I didn't realize how much of the lead vocals were done by Frank himself, and how unusual that is.  I guess that was because I got this one really early in my Zappa/Mothers journey, and because it is a Zappa solo album, so it just didn't stick out.  But no Flo & Eddie, no Napoleon Murphy Brock, mostly just Frank.  Something else that gives this one a rather unique sound.

I love how Frank realized that the name on the front of the album was both important and pretty much whatever he wanted it to be.  We've had "The Mothers of Invention", "Frank Zappa and The Mothers of Invention", just "The Mothers", or just "Frank Zappa"; Roxy & Elsewhere actually says "Zappa/Mothers/Live" and that's fine because that's all you need to know.  Bongo Fury was by "Zappa/Beefheart/Mothers".  Here it's just "Zappa".  And again, that's all you needed to know.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Cyclopssss on April 29, 2016, 02:20:19 AM
Yeah, it's sort of a rarity to have Frank do the lead vocals himself. Listening to it, it feels sort of 'loose' to me.
As if he was going like 'yeah, here's some songs, don't know if you'll like em, but it's what it is.'
I love a great deal of the songs here. There's the goofy wind up working in a gas station, the absolutely scathing parody of Disco Boy, (sounds like Bobby Brown is right around the corner), Wonderful wino, Find her finder. Miss Pinky is great as well. Off course, there's The torutue never stops, but I don't like this studio version as much as the monster live version on YCDTOSA 1. The title track is a great subtle track. The ensuing tour would bring us the next great Zappa Band with the likes of Bozzio, O'Hearne, Marrs,. Ray White and all. Enter yet a new Phase of Zappa music.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 29, 2016, 03:05:04 AM
I normally would skip this album, I mean, the man has so much better music than this. But when I was writing my piece about it, I kept coming back to the album. Reading your stories and opinions about it makes me revisit it yet again. I think I like this album way more than I thought I would. There's about 35 minutes of very, very good music on this album.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: KevShmev on May 01, 2016, 06:52:00 AM
Of the 12-15 Zappa albums I have, this is one of my favorites; just a very nice listen from start to finish.  :hat
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 01, 2016, 11:57:12 AM
Of the 12-15 Zappa albums I have, this is one of my favorites; just a very nice listen from start to finish.  :hat

I have to agree with you on that last point. It's one of the very few Zappa records that doesn't need extra attention per se. You could find extra details by listening to it closely, but it's a nice listen from start to finish. The early Mothers albums aren't that, they can be very interesting, or challenging, or funny, etc. etc. but not nice all around.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: darkshade on May 02, 2016, 06:32:09 AM
I fell behind on this thread. I'll recap what I've missed.

Roxy & Elsewhere - I've said so much about this album over the years that I don't know what else to say besides repeat myself. I'll say this... When I first got this album, I listened to it so many times and eventually got so burnt out on it, that I couldn't enjoy it for years.

I'm glad the ZFT released Roxy By Proxy, a nice companion album to Roxy. Also, the Roxy Movie is gorgeous, and probably the best video release of the 73-74 bands.

One Size Fits All - I've also said a lot about this album in the past. Inca Roads is the quintessential Zappa song. Frank's most renowned guitar solo, great fusion soloing from George Duke, and an overall impressive and captivating composition. I once considered this Frank's best album overall, it's a very consistent release, and definitely more accessible than Roxy. This albums is just full of funky goodness, with some Johnny Guitar Watson on Andy.

Other releases from this time period are The Dub-Room Special, A Token of His Extreme.


Bongo Fury
- Terry Bozzio's first appearance on a Frank Zappa album. Once Bozzio enters the picture, Frank's music began taking on more and more controversial and/or cynical subject matters, but at the same time, the lineups started changing and younger musicians joined Frank's band. This helped Frank stay relevant in sound as music landscape was changing in the mid-late 70s as the 80s approached. Before all that happened, we get Bongo Fury. The 73-74 lineup was more or less still going; Duke and Brock are still there, Frank is still playing rhythm guitar, but Ruth is gone (but still appears on many future releases), and Chester is replaced by Skinny lil Ted Bozzio, who is my favorite Zappa drummer and 3rd favorite Zappa musician (behind George Duke and Arthur Barrow). Last, but not least, Captain Beefheart is here too, and makes the affair very strange.

The music on Bongo Fury is much more bluesy than anything released by Frank at this point. Spliced into it all is the Captain's "madness", reciting strange poems over odd, sporadic music. However, there is gold in this album. Carolina Hardcore Ecstasy is a great tune, and The Muffin Man is one of Frank's most popular songs, and a live staple for years, usually in the encores. Lots of Conceptual Continuity in this album, especially on Muffin Man, alluding to the upcoming "Lather era"

Not much has been released from this lineup on future releases. I believe there's a couple of tunes on YCDTOS vol 4. There's some soundboard recordings on zappateers.com

Zoot Allures - I didn't like this album at all for a long time. First, I always felt these songs were better live (though Black Napkins and the title track are already live anyway, but they're from the FZ:OZ lineup, a very transitional band. Another reason was the sound, I always thought this album sounded really weird. However, the 2012 UMe remaster sounds awesome, and helped me finally appreciate this album as the sound is so much better. Sounds clearer, has more punch, overall a better album than the original CD releases. However, I still feel like Torture Never Stops is better live, but this studio version is cool on the 2012 release. Disco Boy is slow here compared to live. Gas Station is fine, but a cool version is on YCDTOSA vol 6. This album also alludes to the upcoming "Lather era" (Leather is mentioned at least once in this album).

Later albums from this era includes the aforementioned FZ:OZ, Joe's Camouflage, and Philly 76 (which technically belongs to the Lather era)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 02, 2016, 07:27:09 AM
Funny you should mention the other albums that relate to these releases. Most of all with Zoot Allures, the Camouflage band is a strange thing, with Roy Estrada, Ruth Underwood, Napoleon Murphy Brock and Terry Bozzio, total wacky band. I love Philly 76, because of Lady Bianca, she added so much in musical terms to this band.
Like you said lineups would change in months, instead of in years or tours from now on.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: DragonAttack on May 07, 2016, 02:36:07 PM
Just wanted to say....I've given the last two releases a listen, and enjoyed amongst my distractions.

[I think we're still following and reading the threads when given a chance, but with playoffs, warmer weather, household duties....etc]
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 09, 2016, 09:51:15 AM
Yeah, I get what you mean. I'm a teacher, so these couple of months are the most hectic of the year. But we'll continue onwards to Zappa In New York soon! What an album to enjoy!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: darkshade on May 09, 2016, 06:45:24 PM
Surely there is going to be some in-depth backstory behind the next few albums. 1977 was one of 3 years during Zappa's lifetime where there was no new albums. In 1977, Lather was supposed to be released.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Mosh on May 09, 2016, 07:28:24 PM
Yep, we're about to get into the most confusing period of Zappa's career.  :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #8 Hot Rats
Post by: splent on May 09, 2016, 09:31:06 PM
So while searching for a good copy of Hot Rats on vinyl, I found Jean Luc Ponty Plays The Music Of Frank Zappa (JLPPTMOFZ) record. Somehow I never checked that one out, and although it's not going in the official Discography Discussion, cause it's not an official Zappa release, it really is worth checking out. The version of King Kong is really really rocking, great to hear George Duke play that one. (And man that piano solo on Music for...  :eek)
Listening to this record though, I can't understand why I like this instantly, and Hot Rats is a difficult one for me. Maybe it's the low expectations vs. the stamp of it being one of the best Zappa records. There are loads of solo's on this one too.

One big difference to me though is the diverseness in dynamics. The solo's go somewhere, the band follows, instead of just continuing a groove. (I'm trying to find things, it's not that that's the case all the time on Hot Rats)

Anyways, really enjoyable record, recommended!

I haven't heard a lot of Zappa, but this is related. When I saw Return to Forever (the latest incarnation with Chick Corea, Stanley Clarke, Lenny White, Frank Gambale, and Ponty), Zappa plays Zappa opened for them, and JLP played a few songs with them. It was KICK ASS.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Orbert on May 09, 2016, 10:23:57 PM
Ponty is playing with Return to Forever? :omg: When did that happen?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #22 'Zoot Allures'
Post by: Tomislav95 on May 10, 2016, 12:13:02 AM
While we're on Ponty, Enigmatic Ocean is one of the best jazz albums imo. Said that, I haven't heard it for 3-4 years :facepalm:
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 24, 2016, 11:55:11 AM
Official Release #23 'Zappa In New York'
(Released 03/1978)

(https://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/images/23_ZappaInNewYork.jpg)

Background Information:
Recorded in New York (well… duh) at the end of 1976 (four shows between Christmas and NYE), and praised as one of Zappa’s big Live Works, Zappa in New York is a tasteful blend of mind bending compositions and impossible-not-to-tap-along-to pseudo-hits.
Since Zoot Allures Zappa had been busy playing on SNL, touring with any combination a lot, and has been busy writing most of all.   The work he was focused on the most was Läther, a (then unseen) 8 sides Magnum Opus, consisting of anything anyone would even remotely call ‘music’. Orchestral ballets, live R’n’B, elaborate studio pieces and many combinations thereof. Now Zappa wanted to release this box-set to show the diversity in his music, but not only that. Zappa said in an interview with Michael Branton in December 1977:

“You gotta understand how this thing came about,” he says. “I had a contract with Warner Brothers Records, and it was supposed to expire on December 31st of this year. I had to deliver four units to them by December 31st. A unit is one completed album.
“So, I proceeded to deliver four completed albums to them in March of this year. And the contract specified that upon receipt of the tapes they had to pay me.
“It also specified that they had six weeks in the United States and six months outside of the United States to release these albums. They didn’t pay me, they didn’t release the albums, and they haven’t paid me the royalties on other albums that have already been released. Therefore, I claim breach of contract.”


This album was just a way for Warner to put pressure on Zappa. He wasn’t getting out of his contract by giving them four full albums in that short amount of time. In this interview in December 1977 (the album wasn’t out by then) Zappa in New York is still just a threat:

Both Zappa and his estranged company have copies of the recordings, so now it’s up to the judicial system to grant release privileges. “I know who has the rights to them. I do!”

Meanwhile everything for the album was done. Overdubbing had been taking place in April 1977, and in June the album was announced as ‘imminent, but delayed’. Before the album actually came out there was quite the time gap. To put things into perspective, between Zappa stating the album was ‘delayed’ and the album actually coming out, this happened:
Zappa got an almost entire new band (with Adrian Belew, Tommy Mars, Ed Mann and Patrick O’Hearn amongst others) and started writing the songs on Sheik Yerbouti, recorded Baby Snakes (movie and album), played a couple of shows at the Hammersmith Odeon in London (which became most of the backing tracks on Sheik, as well as being released entirely posthumously) ánd decided to play Läther in its entirety on a small radio station, for people to tape.

Finally in March 1978 the first version of Zappa in New York was released. First version, because there were still a lot of versions to come. (It wasn’t until January 1979 that the final piece of Läther was released, but more on that later.)


The Album Itself:
The double album featured a lot of new music at that time. The sound of the album remains the same throughout, mainly because it was recorded with the same gear, at the same venue, in the same week, but the content differs very much. Tracks like Big Leg Emma and Manx Needs Women don’t have anything in common musically.
The record starts off with a comedy routine by Zappa and Terry Bozzio about the devil being a mammalian protuberances enthousiast. In other words ladies and gentlemen, a titty-fan. It features a lot of great stuff, mainly when one of the two guys crack up themselves.
After a long guitar solo (Cruisin’ For Burgers), one of Zappa’s rare moments of pure beauty shines through. I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth is a wonderful track, with a wonderful half-solo, possibly arranged in the overdubs.
Punky’s Whips (the middle point in the differences between track lists of the different version of this album) is a track that has it all. Wacky instrumental bits, crazy lyrics and a rockin’ guitar solo.
After a short pop-esque tune (Honey…), The Illinois Enema Bandit is a crazy track about a criminal from ‘Right around Chicago’ with a near as makes no difference 4 minute blues guitar solo a third into the track.

Side two is even more of a rollercoaster. The most extreme organisms on either side of the spectrum live on this second disc. I’m The Slime is a rocking track, Pound For A Brown/Manx Needs Women/Black Page #1 is one of the most instrumentally challenging series of tracks ever recorded. And although The Black Page (named after how the page looked black with white dots for having so many notes on it) is one of the most famous ‘hard pieces’ Zappa ever wrote, every listen makes the amount of respect for both the composer and the players bigger. Manx Needs Women needs an extra heads up too, for being possibly even denser.
Big Leg Emma and Sofa make you go on a trip, from foot-tapping to floating. The Black Page #2 is an amazing remake of the aforementioned track.
The album closes with one of the ultimate versions of The Torture Never Stops, the 5 minute improvisation shows Zappa at the top of his on-the-spot guitar composing. The Purple Lagoon/Approximate is the place where other members of the Rockin’ Teenage Combo get their solo spots. The Brecker Brothers are on fire on this track, the first sax solo is out of this world.

Essential Tracks:
I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth
Punky’s Whips
Manx Needs Women
The Black Page #2
The Torture Never Stops
(But really listen to the entire album)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 24, 2016, 11:58:41 AM
Sorry for the holdup guys, but this review had to be good, as the album is nothing short of great!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Orbert on May 24, 2016, 12:34:24 PM
I knew some of the history behind this album and the Warner Bros lawsuit, but not all, so thanks for the background.

I often find myself in the minority when it comes to opinions on music and personal preferences.  I've seen it mentioned more than once in this very thread how much people prefer the live versions of much of Frank's work, for example, but I rarely prefer the live versions if the studio versions are any good (which they usually are).  I'm sure that half the "fun" of playing in Frank's band is playing with the arrangements, seeing how fast you can play them, seeing how ridiculous they can be, but to me, this is very close to disrepecting the music itself.  I just want to hear them play the song "properly" and they never do that.

It is entirely Frank's prerogative, of course, to do whatever he wants with his music, so I can't really complain, but I rarely, if ever, have heard a live version of a Zappa composition that I prefer to the original studio recording.  That is not to say that I prefer his studio work to his live work.  It's not the same thing at all, especially for Frank, because there is so much live material that never appeared on a studio album.  If the live version is the only version, or only live versions exist, then there you go.  There are certain parts of live renditions which can be quite interesting, musically, but in general, I prefer the live version of a song to have a little less "Let's see how much we can fuck with this song" to it.

The drummer for our band at the time had this album, and loved it.  I loved some of it, mostly the stuff I'd never heard before.  The live versions of songs I knew from earlier Mothers albums, I tended to not really appreciate, I guess.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Cyclopssss on May 25, 2016, 03:43:24 AM
It's a STELLAR live album (last recording with Ruth Underwood, if I'm correct). All the performances (however cheesy) are right on. You have to get the complete cd recording howver with Cruising for Burgers, King Kong and Torture never stops  :omg: Ray White is singing out of this world on this one, especially in Illinois Enemy Bandit. Black Page and Purple Lagoon are stupendously good.
Titties and Beer (repeat ad infinitum) fun, as is Big Leg Emma and Punky's Whips is just 'wow' drumwise.

The atmosphere comes close to some of the famous 'Halloween' shows and the intro's by Don Pardo are sufficiantly funny.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 25, 2016, 08:41:35 AM
It's a STELLAR live album (last recording with Ruth Underwood, if I'm correct). All the performances (however cheesy) are right on. You have to get the complete cd recording howver with Cruising for Burgers, King Kong and Torture never stops  :omg: Ray White is singing out of this world on this one, especially in Illinois Enemy Bandit. Black Page and Purple Lagoon are stupendously good.
Titties and Beer (repeat ad infinitum) fun, as is Big Leg Emma and Punky's Whips is just 'wow' drumwise.

The atmosphere comes close to some of the famous 'Halloween' shows and the intro's by Don Pardo are sufficiantly funny.

You mean Punky's Whips, right?

But yeah I agree. This was Bozzio's heyday!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Mosh on May 29, 2016, 11:09:52 AM
This album is definitely in my top 5, maybe #1. It was my first real introduction to live Zappa. At this point I was familiar with Overnite and Absolutely Free so the reimagining of the songs from those two albums really appealed to me. I hadn't yet heard Uncle Meat, so Cruising For Burgers was totally new to me, but this version is one I'm still partial to. Orbert, I get where you're coming from but I just can't imagine this band playing a song like Cruising For Burgers as it was originally written and it sounding all that good. It's not just Frank "fucking with the song", he's refiguring it to fit the band playing the material.

I also really love the version of Sofa on this album, it's probably my favorite. I'm a huge fan of the Brecker Bros, especially Michael. When I was playing saxophone in high school, Michael Brecker was my biggest influence and his solo on The Purple Lagoon was pretty much my bible. That's the real highlight of the album for me. It especially blew my mind how Zappa managed to combine two pieces and have it not sound all that weird. It totally fits. The other solos are great too, especially the bass solo. Love his tone on this album.

The thing I like the most about this album is the variety of the material presented. This has it all: blues rockers, "hits", weird noise avant garde pieces, comedy numbers, showcases for musical acrobatics. As a result, this is one of those albums I can put on whenever and get some enjoyment out of it. I'm not always going to want to jam to Weasels Ripped My Flesh, but I always have time for Zappa In New York.

I think this is also where Zappa found his perfect balance of humor and "serious music". This carries over to Sheik Yer Bouti too, but I feel that afterwards the two (consciously) became more and more separated, which makes it harder for me to enjoy some of the material. I'm thinking of The Torture Never Stops (the live DVD) in particular here. I feel like Frank barely picks up his guitar in that and it's just a bit too heavy on the humor side. I like that stuff, but I love Zappa music for the variety and Zappa In New York is one of the best examples of that. The pinnacle within the album has to be Punky's Whips, which is going into major prog territory.

This also features the first recording of the infamous The Black Page. I consider this a game changer in Zappa's more technical works, a lot of this type of music he would do later is very similar in style to The Black Page. Similar interval jumps, rhythms, etc. He'd learn to integrate it a bit better with other works though, such as Sinister Footwear.

Overall, awesome album!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 30, 2016, 03:04:21 AM
Thanks for your review/story. I agree with nearly everything, this album really is one of Zappa's best and most diverse. And I would've loved to see Zappa play with the Brecker brothers.

Regarding the redoing of classics, quite the opposite of what Orbert said, I normally don't really care for live shows when bands play the material exactly the same. Goofing around with tempo, solo's, breaks, intro's, lyrics and even harmonies is what makes a live version fun. Otherwise you'll just have a rendition of the studio version that is close, but never perfect.
With Zappa things are different though. I tend to forget what the original version is. Cruising for Burgers has a place on Uncle Meat (I tend to forget it's even on there) but it has a different place and purpose on New York. Same goes for Big Leg Emma, on Absolutely Free it has a different function than on New York. When I'm listening to Zappa's live stuff there's rarely a moment that I think 'this track was on [album] too'. I even had to look it up for Zappa In New York :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Mosh on May 30, 2016, 02:05:33 PM
Big Leg Emma is pretty faithful to the original, but is augmented by having more talented musicians helming the instruments. The inclusion of this song (and possible the Uncle Meat material as well) seems to be an homage to the original Mothers' residency at the Garrick in NYC.

Btw, for those who like this album but don't have a physical copy, I highly recommend seeking one out. AFAIK all versions include pretty extensive liner notes with program notes on every song by FZ. Some interesting stuff!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: darkshade on May 30, 2016, 04:11:22 PM
This is a time when Frank was writing faster than he could release albums. The whole Lather debacle threw things off, 1977 was the first full year of no new Zappa albums since 1965. This album was recorded in 1976, same year that Zoot Allures was released, and released in 1978, by then Frank was working on Shiek YerBouti material already, and had a new lineup. But anyway...

Zappa In New York is definitely one of Zappa's best albums. It has a BIG sound, very orchestral, but also filled with jazz, humor, and prog. All these Lather albums (ZNY, SD, ST, and OF) are the last albums featuring any of the early-mid 70s members (George Duke, Ruth Underwood for example) but also feature musicians who would continue to appear on later albums (Terry Bozzio, Patrick O'Hearn) so this era is kind of a best of both worlds. We get everything here.

ZNY overlaps with Lather, but there are cuts here that don't appear on the mammoth 4LP set that never came to be. The live Sofa is the best version, and The Black Page #2 is some epic music, to say the least; this is the best version. I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth is actually the title track from Lather but the same recording. It should be noted that the songs that do appear on Lather have different cuts, and overall different mastering. (ex. ZNY sounds brighter)

Bozzio is a mad man. Bozzio is a mad man. Listen to this guy play drums. Vinnie Colaiuta may have had the most dexterity, and maybe a couple of Zappa's earlier drummers had more jazz influence, but Terry Bozzio knew how to rock-the-fuck-out AND had the chops to back it up. He also brought some humours vocals to a few albums as well.

I agree that Zappa didn't so much rearrange a song just because he could, but in order to bring out the best in his lineups, and sometimes the live versions are better with Zappa.

I usually end my post on each album with related albums from the same time period that were (usually) released posthumously, but with this period, there's too much overlap between music Frank was working on live while these albums were coming out (Shiek, Joe's Garage material) and the fact that the Lather albums contained different lineups spread across different eras that it's too confusing and/or a spoiler for upcoming albums (if you care enough). The only thing I can say is Philly 76 because ZNY is also from 1976 and has a similar, but stripped down, lineup and with occasional female vocals.

Here's some more interesting facts about this era. Look at what was supposed to be released in 1977 before Zappa In New York:

(https://globalia.net/donlope/fz/images/1977_LatherOriginal.jpg)

It looks like the cover of Joe's Garage. Let's take a closer look...

(https://www.letoilemagazine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/lather.jpeg)

This era is one of those times where, even if just slightly, things went Zappa's way, the remaining discography may have been COMPLETELY different from here forward. For better or worse? We'll never know, but Zappa did get way more cynical after the Lather fiasco.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Mosh on May 30, 2016, 04:58:46 PM
I find it interesting that when it came time to put the albums on CD, Zappa decided to acknowledge the unauthorized albums as official, or "canon". Lather in its intended form didn't see the light of day until after he died and AFAIK he wasn't ever preparing a CD release of Lather.

Good call on Bozzio, he was definitely the Keith Moon of the Frank Zappa drummers. He fit especially well on Sheik Yer Bouti, which had an almost punk rock recklessness to it at times.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Cyclopssss on May 31, 2016, 02:04:20 AM
Good find! Yeah, the not releasing of Lather by Warner Brothers pissed Frank off to no end. It was the straw that broke the camel's back. Frank took to performing with a banner stating 'Warner Brother Sucks' on stage and the relationship would never be repaired after that. Hence the start of Zappa Records, but now we're getting ahead of ourselves.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: darkshade on June 13, 2016, 10:18:35 PM
Seriously, though, Läther is probably the best Zappa album.

I'm glad it was released. There was a long period of time where I dismissed the 'sub' albums (ZNY, Studio Tan, etc..) and would only listen to Läther if I wanted any of the songs from this era. The reissue of the original Sleep Dirt, in 2012; without the added vocals, from later CDs from the 80s and 90s, and the upgraded audio on Studio Tan, got me to re-explore the Lather albums and I'm glad I did. There are enough differences to call them all original releases, they are all their own world, Läther is just the penultimate version of all albums put together as one meta-album, in effect (along with the dialogue pieces added and material not found anywhere else) Läther is also it's own, unique world.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Mosh on June 14, 2016, 09:25:10 AM
I've only listened to Lather once, but I remember it feeling like a compilation album of a bunch of unrelated material pasted together. And at the time I had only heard ZINY so it was all mostly new to me. But then again Zappa's albums could feel like a random collage of music.  :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: jammindude on June 27, 2016, 08:19:35 PM
Spun Freak Out! today....    I really love that album.    50 years ago today....everything awesome about modern rock-n-roll was born. 

We all look at the pillars like Sgt. Pepper, Days of Future Past, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, Court of the Crimson King.....but Freak Out! beat them all to the punch.

Happy Anniversary to Freak out!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: darkshade on July 03, 2016, 09:26:08 AM
What happened to this thread. We've been left hanging in the middle of the Lather era with Zappa In New York. ???
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 26, 2017, 09:58:10 AM
Thinking about rebooting this. I might take a couple albums head start, so the next album could take a couple weeks. But I will finish this. Only 85 albums to go, we're so close!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Mosh on February 26, 2017, 11:30:33 AM
Bring it on! A lot of the 80s albums are uncharted territory for me so I'm excited.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on February 26, 2017, 11:39:13 AM
Bring it on! A lot of the 80s albums are uncharted territory for me so I'm excited.

Well with Thing-Fish and Francesco Zappa to go, what could go wrong?  :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Mosh on February 26, 2017, 02:44:06 PM
I actually enjoy Francesco Zappa. Haven't heard Thingfish, kinda dreading it :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #23 'Zappa In New York'
Post by: Cyclopssss on February 27, 2017, 03:12:20 AM
 :metal Good man!  :metal
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #24 'Studio Tan'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 06, 2017, 04:35:24 AM
Official Release #24 'Studio Tan'
(Released 09/1978)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/Studio_Tan.jpg)

Background Information:
The second released disc of the Läther record. After Zappa’s problems with manager Herb Cohen and distributor Warner Bros. Records, Warner decided on their own to release the Läther 4-LP box-set on their own terms, i.e. as four separate albums, with their own artwork, and no credits. The released version will be the one discussed here, mainly because Läther itself was released eventually (the first official release was in 1996).
The fact that the album title (which is more of a point with the next record) and even the artwork did not change when Zappa reissued the albums. Had he laid the dispute to rest, or couldn’t he give a toss anymore?

The Album Itself:
The album actually is a tour-de-force of studio technique. The band consists mainly of the 1976 New York band, but with a ton of overdubs of people ranging from Zappa aficionados Malcom McNab to a ton of people who have only played on this record.
The record starts off with ‘(The Adventures Of) Greggery Peccary’, an entire comic-book style rock-opera in itself. A nihilistic story about a peccary inventing the calendar, and after being chased ends up inside the mouth of Billy the Mountain and more of that stuff. Musically it’s an interesting piece too, with a lot more jazzy feel to it than for example the piece Billy the Mountain itself.
Side two consists of three pieces, the extremely poppy and upbeat ‘Lemme Take You To The Beach’, which is a satire if Zappa ever made one. And two really clever instrumental pieces of which RDNZL is the jazzy improv track, and ‘Revised…’ a really well-composed piece of orchestral music played by a rock band. Both tracks sound awesome, again due to a great recording technique, but the piano interludes during the theme of RDNZL take the cake. The theme itself is a wonderful composition, it just shows how much you an achieve with (mainly) eighth notes.


Essential Tracks:
Greggery Peccary
RDNZL
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #24 'Studio Tan'
Post by: Orbert on March 06, 2017, 07:03:45 AM
I like this one a lot.  I got it way back before we knew about the Warner lawsuit or any of that, so I have to admit that the lack of credits and really liner notes of any kind was disappointing, but as always it was all about the music for me, and this did not disappoint.  I love how Greggery ends up on Billy the Mountain and we briefly hear the "Billy was a mountain..." theme.  Side Two is all good, too.  I love "Lemme Take You to the Beach" and the two instrumentals are chill and fun.

Played a bar in Manistee, Michigan a few years later, and this was back in the days when a band played a place all week (or in this case Thursday through Saturday) so by the end of the week the band and some of the employees have gotten to know each other pretty well.  The crew was all heading to the beach Saturday during the day, and they told us we should come along.  We could hang out, then all be back at the bar to work that night.  Back then, we traveled in a converted school bus so if anyone went somewhere, we all went, or chose individually to stay at the hotel, or the bar, or wherever until later.  So that was a no-go because Pete (our asshole leader) didn't want to go.  The one cute waitress had her car and said she could take some of us, and started singing "Lemme take you the beach... ♫♫"  I thought that that was awesome that she knew the song.  But we didn't go, because Pete is an asshole.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #24 'Studio Tan'
Post by: Podaar on March 06, 2017, 07:17:05 AM
It may not surprise anyone here, but this is a favorite of mine. I'll admit that as a teenager, my friends and I were initially drawn to this album because of the general weirdness of Greggery Peccary. The story is odd, seemingly nonsensical, but the lyrics are brilliant and in the end make a trippy kind of commentary on modern life. No moral, mind you, just an absurdity.

But during the course of several listens, a funny thing began to happen. The music really soaked in and its storytelling brilliance became obvious and thrilling. This composition single-highhandedly changed my opinion of Franks other orchestral pieces forever and opened a door that allowed me to enjoy avant-garde music.

Because my name is Gregg in real life, my friends began associating "the little pig" with me. It was a high-school buddy who first suggested I get a personalized license plate for my car that said PODAAR. When I asked him why, he said, "Because you are a Peccary of Destiny Adventure And Romance." To this very day, I can call a business associate (who recently turned 62) and when I say, "Good morning, Sam." He will usually respond with, "Greggery Peccary! Good morning." I can't even help myself when someone happens to mention that they went to Catalina Island my head automatically thinks of that part of the song and sometimes it just blurts out my mouth.

So this album has been a big part of my life and I still enjoy it today as much as I did back in the day. Mrs. P hates it!  :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #24 'Studio Tan'
Post by: Orbert on March 06, 2017, 10:10:41 AM
My wife likes Catalina salad dressing.  Any time she asks me to get out the Catalina dressing, I can't help but sing ♫♫ Catalina, Catalina!  Catalina! ♪♫
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #24 'Studio Tan'
Post by: Podaar on March 06, 2017, 10:22:28 AM
"Mysterious angelic voices singing from a great distance", has become a common phrase in my family as a substitute for inspiration. I swear I've heard everyone of my kids say it as some point or another.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #24 'Studio Tan'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 06, 2017, 11:15:19 AM
It's great to read your enthusiastic reactions. Obviously I knew about these albums not being 'real Zappa albums' when I heard them. That might've messed up the way I could've enjoyed them otherwise. I rarely listen to Greggery Peccary, and when I do I always end up comparing it to Billy. Which to me is more funny, just as musical, and the fact that that one is live recorded makes it all the more impressive. Plus: Flo and Eddie. I was sure however that this album had fans on this forum, so it was awesome to dive in once again. Will possibly re-listen tonight, I'm getting excited from reading your point of view, Gregg and Orbert  :)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #24 'Studio Tan'
Post by: darkshade on March 06, 2017, 06:04:15 PM
It's funny, I went through a Zappa kick a couple months ago, but haven't listened to much since, then I put on Studio Tan for no reason a couple of days ago, and now here we are.


The album actually is a tour-de-force of studio technique. The band consists mainly of the 1976 New York band.

Not to be that guy, but this is inaccurate. The album is pretty much the '74 lineup (minus Napoleon Murphy Brock), with a few guests. The exception is Eddie Jobson on keys and Paul Humphrey on drums for "Lemme Take You To The Beach".

This is the 'main' band for the majority of Studio Tan.

George Duke - keys
Ruth Underwood - marimba/percussion
Tom Fowler - bass
Chester Thompson - drums
Bruce Fowler - trombone

Anyway, this album is the only Lather album where there are no differences between the Lather versions and this, other than different track order (though tracks 2-4 are also the last 3 tracks of disc 1 of Lather.)

Greggary Peccary is certainly a dense piece of music. I first hated the very beginning of the piece, that I overlooked the entire piece for years. Over time, I have let it digest, and it has grown on me immensely. Hearing live versions from posthumous albums helped in understanding its development. I now think it's one of Zappa's greatest achievements in music, and always get a kick out of it when I listen.

RDNZL is a Zappa classic, top five Frank tune, up there with Peaches en Regalia and Inca Roads. The rest of the album is fun and challenging, and worth every penny. I'm one of those who got Lather first, and ignored ST because there is nothing changed, and Lather had better sound than the old ST CDs. When Studio Tan got a re-release in 2012, the audio was upgraded to the original analog mix, and I began listening to it as its own album, and with improved sound (Lather is similar, but slightly different mix to my ears) I enjoy Studio Tan outside of the Lather concept.

Greggary Peccary is way more complex and technical than Billy The Mountain, and I also think it's more humorous. Plus it has a Herbie Hancock "Chameleon" tease. Doesn't make it better or worse, but I prefer GP over BTM.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #24 'Studio Tan'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 07, 2017, 12:59:47 AM
Not to be that guy, but this is inaccurate.

Please, do! As I said at the very beginning I'm not a zappologist, I can mis things, or just quote things wrong. I'll definitely listen to the album again now, knowing it's from a different line-up, maybe I'll find clues of it being the '74 band in terms of sound. I always like hunting for clues, why a certain bass line should be Tom Fowler's, or if I hear one of Chester's fills.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #24 'Studio Tan'
Post by: darkshade on March 07, 2017, 08:03:45 AM
Not to be that guy, but this is inaccurate.

Please, do! As I said at the very beginning I'm not a zappologist, I can mis things, or just quote things wrong. I'll definitely listen to the album again now, knowing it's from a different line-up, maybe I'll find clues of it being the '74 band in terms of sound. I always like hunting for clues, why a certain bass line should be Tom Fowler's, or if I hear one of Chester's fills.

The Lather era is a confusing time in Zappa's career. Lather had participation from almost every Zappa alumni up until this point in time (1977) and Studio Tan focused on the lineup I listed before (of course, there's like 20 something other musicians on the Studio Tan as well, between the orchestra players and the guest musicians, but not anyone from the '76 NY live band besides Ruth or Jobson.) I recall reading that Frank had been putting together Lather for a long time, so I want to say the ST tracks were recorded before Zappa hooked up with Bozzio and O'Hearn, the main rhythm section from 76-78, who, by the way, are featured on a few tracks on the next Lather album, Sleep Dirt.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #24 'Studio Tan'
Post by: Mosh on March 07, 2017, 07:52:50 PM
The Lather albums are a strange bunch. Albums released without his permission in ways he did not intend, yet they are now considered "official" and are probably the versions 99% of Zappa fans are familiar with, not Lather. Was Zappa involved at all with what songs landed on which album and in what order? Because these are actually curated really well. I might even say better than what eventually became Lather.

Studio Tan in particular is good because it gives a taster of Zappa's main strengths: the comedy rock, the satire, the 20th century orchestral music, and the jazz fusion. All 4 really high quality offerings too. My only real gripe with this album is the production. Something about Zappa's albums starting at about 1976 seems too polished. It's all clear and pristine to the point of sounding artificial. Frank struck me as the type of artist who was going for absolute perfection. His preference in the synclavier toward the end of his life seems to support this. I get that he wanted his music portrayed as accurately as possible, but some of his studio recordings from this time period are almost too perfect. It's a minor complaint, but it's one reason I prefer his earlier work.


Greggary Peccary is interesting. I can't help but miss Flo and Eddie when listening to this, especially with all the Billy the Mountain references. Their delivery of Frank's words really brought it to a new level. The story isn't as entertaining either IMO. Instrumentally, however, it is far superior to Billy the Mountain. It's chaotic but somehow works. Nice mixture of Jazz and avant-garde. There are't any choruses or major recurring motifs like in Billy the Mountain, which makes it much more dense, but it flows smoothly enough not to seem disjointed in a bad way.

Overall an interesting piece, but not one I find myself going back to often. Still, the composition is so impressive that I can enjoy it thoroughly whenever I do listen to it. I also love the chaotic finale.

The album's real strength for me is side 2. Let Me Take You To the Beach is one of the best pop songs he's written. I've said it before, but the reason his satire works is mostly because he is so good at writing pop music. He's not just tearing apart a genre he doesn't really understand, he definitely gets what makes a good pop songs. So you get the foundation of a great pop song but with Frank's signature weirdness. The extended instrumental section in this tune is so cool. It's kinda strange but also extremely catchy. Blows my mind that it is under 3 minutes, they really accomplish a lot in such a short time.

Revised Music For Low Budget Orchestra is a taste of Zappa's many orchestral endeavors he would embark on in the 80s. Cool piece. His orchestral stuff can often be difficult, but I feel this one is unusually catchy.
Love the section where the horn section doubles the guitar solo.

RDNZL is the best song on the album and one of Frank's greatest pieces. Chronologically, it's the first time this tune was released, but there are many recordings that predate this. I became familiar with the YCDTOSA Vol 2 version. Honestly, in comparison to that this version feels a little bare. The production is really polished, but I miss all those horn flourishes. Still a great piece and a nice way to close out this album. Also a fantastic guitar solo.



 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 10, 2017, 02:28:31 PM
Official Release #25 'Sleep Dirt'
(Released 01/1979)

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/407/MI0003407304.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Background Information:
The next installment of Läther tracks. Though a couple of tracks appear in a different form than was originally intended on Läther, there are bigger differences to be found in different versions. The LP version (just like the Läther version) is entirely instrumental. But when the album was re-released in CD in 1991 Zappa asked Thana Harris to overdub vocals on a couple of tracks. Frank originally intended three tracks to be part of a musical called Hutchentoot, Chris Ullsperger called the vocal overdubs to be ‘an important restoration’. This makes it all the more difficult to state which version would be the ‘best’ version of these tracks compiled by Warner as ‘Sleep Dirt’. The original vinyl version without vocals (and as stated by John Bamford in 1986 with ‘wrong equalization’), the 1991 CD version with vocals (but also with Chad Wackerman drum overdubs, overdubbing old drum parts was a nasty habit Zappa had during that time), or the Zappa Records 2012 issue which reverts back to the original master tapes, without vocals, but with correct sound.
Since the vocal versions are all out of print and most people would have the new CD version or the old vinyl version, that will be the version discussed below.

The Album Itself:
On to Hot Rats III. Or Sleep Dirt? Zappa’s intended title for the album was Hot Rats III, which was simply put aside by Warner, to be substituted by Sleep Dirt, the name of a beautiful acoustic guitar piece.
Since we are discussing the instrumental version of this release, this is an all-instrumental record, which is a rare thing with Zappa. Like Waka/Jawaka and The Grand Wazoo this album has a jazzy sound, even though it’s stylistically very different from either of those records. Apart from the track closing off the album ‘The Ocean is…’ the pieces have a more compositional nature, instead of the long solo’s that happen on Waka/Jawaka and The Grand Wazoo. Pieces like Flambay, Spider of Destiny and Regyptian Strut all sound amazing.

Essential Tracks:
Filthy Habits
Flambay
Regiptian Strut
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Orbert on March 10, 2017, 02:41:36 PM
This one escaped me on my original pass, and also my second pass in the 80's.  I think I finally downloaded a copy of it in the 00's when I was trying (in vain it would seem) to "complete" my Zappa catalogue, but I'm not very familiar with it.  I should do something about that.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Mosh on March 10, 2017, 04:49:26 PM
Not familiar with it either. Ordered it on amazon for this.  :metal
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 11, 2017, 04:53:02 AM
Cool guys! Interested to read what you think! It's not really an essential Zappa album imo, but the sound of a couple of tracks is something that he's rarely done, the jazzy stuff, with an upright bass, it's really a nice addition to your Zappa collection.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Podaar on March 11, 2017, 06:49:28 AM
Like Orbert, I missed this one on release. In fact, the first time I heard it was a couple of years ago when you first started talking about doing this thread, Nihil.  :lol  I've gone back to a few times but not for a while now. I remember especially digging, Filthy Habits, Flambay and The Ocean is the Ultimate Solution. Still, I think the entire record is quite easy to listen to and is consistently interesting. There is some patented Zappa guitar leads, at times, which helps tie this record to his later work... for me anyway.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 11, 2017, 12:42:14 PM
Funny to read that this has been spun less by the Zappa community, aka you guys. Possibly because it doesn't have a 'hit' on it, not a song that would rotate later concerts or anything. I mean, that's how it worked for me, the first couple of years. I knew a couple YCDTOSA releases (mainly 1, 2 and 3), New York and Roxy, and would work from there, recognising songs etc. A while later I figured I might as well start from the beginning, but Sleep Dirt slipped through for me as well.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Mosh on March 11, 2017, 12:43:44 PM
I don't know why it is for me. I've heard all other Lather albums several times, but haven't given Sleep Dirt much attention despite being especially fond of that side of him.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 11, 2017, 12:49:31 PM
I kept thinking about the 'no live versions'. Regyptian Strut is on Wazoo. But since that's pretty new, it doesn't count  :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: darkshade on March 11, 2017, 05:34:23 PM
Filthy Habits is on You Can't DO That On Stage Anymore Vol. 4, played by the 1988 band. But not much else besides Regyptian Strut in its primordial version from 1972 under a different title ("Processional March" or something like that.)

Sleep Dirt is a weird one, because for the longest time, unless you had the original vinyl, the only available version was the remix with off-putting (even for Zappa) vocals and overdubbed 80s drums, so not preferable. When the original analog recording got released in 2012 it was like a revelation.

I'll try to listen to this tonight and leave some comments.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Orbert on March 12, 2017, 07:31:54 AM
I'm pretty sure I missed this one the first few times because of the shitty cover.  Zappa has often been obscure with his album titles, but back in the days of shopping in brick-and-mortar stores, catchy album cover art would still grab my attention.  Again, I was unaware of all the Warner Bros. crap going on at the time, but seeing this one looked like another album that Frank put very little effort into.  And it turns out I was right, but for the wrong reasons.  Frank put no effort into the packaging -- that's all on Warner Bros. -- but the result was the same.  No sale from me.

I think I may also have had a feeling like Frank was so prolific that he was putting out tons and tons of material and thought that he didn't need to bother with packaging because people would eat it up anyway.  Frank insists that he really doesn't care whether or not people like his work (he always claimed to do it 100% for his own amusement), and Warner Bros. obviously didn't care, so why should we?  So Warner Bros. fucked up, no surprise there.  They could have actually sold more units if they'd've put some effort into it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Mosh on March 13, 2017, 04:03:27 PM
Alright, finally getting to this. The cover is pretty cheap, but the music is not. Definitely earns the title of Hot Rats III. Similar in musical style but with some progression. There's more of a traditional Jazz sound at times, before exploding in a more modern Zappa flavored fusion. Zappa's solos are fantastic on this.

Also a lot of acoustic instruments on this album. The obvious example is the title track, which is gorgeous. But Zappa plays acoustic guitar on some of the other tracks too. I never really considered him much of an acoustic player, he tends to stick to electric, so it's a nice change of pace. But there's also some stand up bass in lieu of the typical electric bass, which also adds to the flavor.

On that note, can we take a moment to appreciate Patrick O'Hearn on bass? By far one of Zappa's greatest bass players and he tears it up on this album. Awesome double bass solo on The Ocean. Good musicianship all around on this album. While not as legendary as the Roxy band, his late 70s band was almost just as good, for different reasons.

The Ocean Is The Ultimate Solution is a really great jam. Frank is shredding, but he also has an amazing rhythm section.

This album kicks ass. Maybe my favorite of the Warner releases. I regret not checking it out sooner. Don't skip it guys.
 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 14, 2017, 01:47:45 AM
Both Studio Tan and Sleep Dirt are amongst the few Zappa albums I don't own. But I do own Lather, and having heard the material from these albums it is clear that they are probably amongst his best instrumental work and I totally missed out. I've read somewhere, can't really remember where, that the ugly covers are probably some sort of retaliation by WB, for having to release these records contractually. Zappy had zero influence on that part.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 14, 2017, 03:18:11 AM
Both Studio Tan and Sleep Dirt are amongst the few Zappa albums I don't own. But I do own Lather, and having heard the material from these albums it is clear that they are probably amongst his best instrumental work and I totally missed out. I've read somewhere, can't really remember where, that the ugly covers are probably some sort of retaliation by WB, for having to release these records contractually. Zappy had zero influence on that part.

Yeah that's true. Warner hired an artist to quickly make these separate album covers, Zappa had nothing to do with the final product.


This album kicks ass. Maybe my favorite of the Warner releases. I regret not checking it out sooner. Don't skip it guys.

I was listening to it again yesterday and I really enjoy this album. Has such a sound of its own!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Podaar on March 14, 2017, 07:41:29 AM
^ Agreed. The first half is my favorite, but really, it's all great.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Orbert on March 14, 2017, 08:15:03 AM
Interesting.  I'm finally listening to it now, and my version has vocals.  I downloaded this version way back in '07, most likely off of Usenet, and I may or may not have listened to it at the time, but if I did, I probably came away feeling "meh" because of the vocals.  I'm not a big fan of atonal stuff anyway; Frank tends to make it work with instrumentals, but when it's atonal vocals, I just find it annoying.

The instrumental work is great, as always.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: darkshade on March 14, 2017, 08:29:01 AM
Listening now to the 2012 UMe release. Maybe I'll throw on the remix version with the vocals later...Maybe.

A darker album. Jazzier. This album has grown on me, partly because we can listen to the original version over the remixed one, which was the only one available until 2012, unless you had the vinyl, and I didn't. I had to get to know the original versions via Lather, which doesn't have all these tunes, some are slightly different, and The Ocean Is The Ultimate Solution is longer here than on Lather. It's also nice to have 'these' songs together in one complete package. Sometimes I don't want to listen to all of Lather, which is its own experience itself, but I want to listen to some of the tunes from this era. Filthy Habits is a dark Zappa tune, nice guitar solo, and Terry Bozzio is a monster drummer. The middle tunes (tracks 2-5) feature great George Duke piano and lots of Ruth's percussion, with Chester Thompson back on drums and Bruce Fowler on brass instruments. It's almost the 74 band again, but there's a bunch of different bassists on this album. James "Bird Legs" Youman on Regyptian Strut, Dave Parlato (from the Wazoo era) on the opening track, and Patrick O'Hearn on tracks 2, 3 and 7.

I've always considered the last track The Ocean Is The Ultimate Solution to be one of Zappa's great guitar solos, as well as showcasing how great the trio of Zappa, O'Hearn, and Bozzio was. Powerful rhythm section they were, especially live.

I consider this Hot Rats IV. The Grand Wazoo is musically linked, IMO, with Hot Rats, Waka Jawaka, and Sleep Dirt, for their jazzier excursions.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: darkshade on March 14, 2017, 08:33:40 AM
Interesting.  I'm finally listening to it now, and my version has vocals.  I downloaded this version way back in '07, most likely off of Usenet, and I may or may not have listened to it at the time, but if I did, I probably came away feeling "meh" because of the vocals.  I'm not a big fan of atonal stuff anyway; Frank tends to make it work with instrumentals, but when it's atonal vocals, I just find it annoying.

The instrumental work is great, as always.

You NEED to get the 2012 UMe release, which is the original 1970s analog recording.

Of course, Frank inserted some form of vocals on his instrumental albums. I forgot that the title track starts off with Zappa going, "aarrf!" -- some Conceptual Continuity there, is it related to One Size Fits All? We may never know. Also, the Sleep Dirt solo is one of the best clean guitar solos Zappa ever made. Beautiful.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Mosh on March 14, 2017, 11:55:46 AM
I might have to check out that vocals version. Some of the choices for the 2012 releases of these albums were bizarre. Sleep Dirt and We're Only In It For the Money restored to original versions, but Uncle Meat and Ruben and the Jets remain as the (largely panned) 80s remixes.

I consider this Hot Rats IV. The Grand Wazoo is musically linked, IMO, with Hot Rats, Waka Jawaka, and Sleep Dirt, for their jazzier excursions.
What keeps Grand Wazoo from being part of the Hot Rats "series" is the size of the group IMO. The big band setup and more tightly composed tunes are a contrast to the small combo jams in Hot Rats, Jawaka, and Sleep Dirt.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: darkshade on March 14, 2017, 01:27:49 PM
I might have to check out that vocals version. Some of the choices for the 2012 releases of these albums were bizarre. Sleep Dirt and We're Only In It For the Money restored to original versions, but Uncle Meat and Ruben and the Jets remain as the (largely panned) 80s remixes.

Yes, but Uncle Meat's analog mix got finally released last year on "Meat Light" which also includes the original sequence of the album. RatJ analog mix is available on "Greasy Love Songs".

I thought the 2012 releases were much needed. Dozens of Zappa albums were restored to their 'better' mixes. The few that were not were either being obviously saved for future releases (Meat Light), had already been released in analog (MOFO/Freak Out!) or were recorded digitally (late 80s/90s albums.) The exception is Roxy and Elsewhere, but that one might have just been left alone because of all the Roxy releases we got recently, but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: darkshade on March 14, 2017, 03:22:29 PM
What keeps Grand Wazoo from being part of the Hot Rats "series" is the size of the group IMO. The big band setup and more tightly composed tunes are a contrast to the small combo jams in Hot Rats, Jawaka, and Sleep Dirt.

Waka / Jawaka has 15 musicians on it, and The Grand Wazoo has 18 (and the 18th guy (Lee Clement) just hits the gong on Eat That Question during the 'march' section) so there's not a huge difference to me, they're both big band albums. All 4 albums follow a musical ethos, so to speak.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 14, 2017, 03:36:24 PM
I'm checking out the version with vocals at the moment. Had never heard that one, and eh, yeah. I'll stick to the vinyl or the 2012 mix.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Mosh on March 14, 2017, 05:47:37 PM
What keeps Grand Wazoo from being part of the Hot Rats "series" is the size of the group IMO. The big band setup and more tightly composed tunes are a contrast to the small combo jams in Hot Rats, Jawaka, and Sleep Dirt.

Waka / Jawaka has 15 musicians on it, and The Grand Wazoo has 18 (and the 18th guy (Lee Clement) just hits the gong on Eat That Question during the 'march' section) so there's not a huge difference to me, they're both big band albums. All 4 albums follow a musical ethos, so to speak.
I'm thinking of the original tunes here though. Big Swift has 6 musicians on it, a typical Jazz combo set up. Grand Wazoo (the song) has 19, a typical big band set up. Zappa also takes advantage of that larger instrumentation with a more intricate arrangement. It predates stuff he would do later in the 70s and also in 1988.

Granted this isn't a major distinction but I can see how Grand Wazoo is separate from the other three albums.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #25 'Sleep Dirt'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 15, 2017, 01:45:43 PM
Thanks for the animated discussion guys, but it's time to move on to:
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 15, 2017, 01:52:01 PM
Official Release #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
(Released 03/1979)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/Sheik_Yerbouti.jpeg)

Background Information:
A turning point in Frank’s career. After departing from Warner Bros., this self released record focussed more on lyrics than recent records, and more on poppy songwriting than possibly ever before.
Most of the album is a live recording of a series of gigs at the Hammersmith Odeon, London early ’78. The remaining tracks are a couple of months older. (Apart from the xenochronic track ‘Rubber Shirt’, more on that below)
The album is full of overdubs, and although the original tracks are taken from live shows, it doesn’t feel like a live album. Part of that is that the album only has new titles on it. No live versions of older tracks, just new tracks (and two guitar solo’s taken from older songs (Rat Tomago from The Torture Never Stops, and The Sheik Yerbouti Tango from Little House I Used To Live In).

The Album Itself:
A major turn in Zappa’s sound becomes apparent in the first couple of tracks. Writing pop songs with lyrics was something he had rarely done (does Ruben & The Jets count?), but this album is full of tracks with actual hit potential.
Side one starts of with the hilarious I Have Been in You (the full story is part of the extended version on the Hammersmith Odeon release #89) based on Peter Frampton’s I’m In You. The last two tracks on side one are punk driven songs, which of course mocks the punk movement. Broken Hearts Are For Assholes and I’m So Cute both do the job really well of satirising punk but meanwhile being two rocking tracks in their own right.
Side two starts off with a sound that possibly suited the older Zappa fans more. Jones Crusher is a short rocker but the one-two punch What Ever… and Rat Tomago see Zappa returning to form. A strange Musique Concrete-like piece and a powerful guitar solo might show that Zappa hasn’t started to write pop-songs exclusively. Bobby Brown is Frank’s biggest hit worldwide, apparently a slow-dance favourite in the Scandinavian disco’s of the late ’70’s, but never caught on in the USA because, well, because it’s about golden showers.
Rubber Shirt is a song which uses xenochrony, the bass track and the drum track are from different times, in different tempo’s and different time signatures (the drums are in 11/4). Zappa just bodged them together creating a strange musical world that was otherwise impossible to create, mainly because of the musicians locking in and creating one piece, instead of the intended separate two pieces.
Side three is again a collection of foot-tappers starting off with the title track of the already recorded movie Baby Snakes (which was to be released later in 1979), but this side never slows down. Dancing Fool, a track which mocks the disco scene, is like the punk songs on side one a perfect satire, not lastly because it actually went on to become a disco hit (and a Grammy nominee).
Side four consists of just two tracks. The extremely well produced (it sounds so crisp!) Wild Love and the wonderful long track (well, long guitar solo) that is Yo’ Mama. Although Zappa often played long guitar solo’s live, this is one of the first in this style (as part of a tracks with vocals) to be released. King Kong often had a long solo in it, but it would sound more like a jazz improv than this guitar solo spot within a song. It wouldn’t be the last long live guitar solo to be released.
The album closes off with audience noises, which has a sort of alienating effect. It gets the listener to question himself whether he has been listening to a live album all along.

Essential Tracks:
I Have Been In You
Broken Hearts Are For Assholes
Bobby Brown
City of Tiny Lights
Dancin' Fool
Yo' Mama
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Orbert on March 15, 2017, 02:35:08 PM
Ah, my first Zappa album, and still one of my all-time favorites.

I'd heard One Size Fits All years earlier, when it first came out.  It was the "Midnight Album" on the local AM station, and it always stuck with me.  Years later, I heard "Dancing Fool" on the radio, from Frank Zappa's latest, and I went out and bought it.  My mind was expanded manifold that day.

Frank's liner notes are practically legendary, and this album is a great example why.  Detailed notes on every track, who plays what, whether there are lots of overdubs, or just a few, or none, or whether the track is literally a Frankenstein of other performances ("xenochronic" -- fun word!)  I love the idea of using recorded tracks as raw material, to be sped up, slowed down, pitched-corrected, whatever, then combined to create new "songs".  I was actually just thinking about this last night, since Sheik Yerbouti is the current CD in my car.

Personally, I think it's really cool that it's clearly a studio album, but ends with a "mostly live" track and Frank introducing the band, not unlike on Bongo Fury.  After a double album, you feel like you've just sat through a performance of a masterwork, and of course you have.

"Patrick O'Hearn, Adrian Belew, Tommy Mars, Peter Wolf, Terry Bozzio, Ed Mann.  Thanks for coming to the concert.  Good night!"  I always say it along with him.

Oh yeah, this album was also my introduction to both Adrian Belew and Terry Bozzio.  I think I have a couple dozen albums total now with those two guys on them.  Steve Vai is generally recognized as Frank's first "stunt guitarist" but that seems wrong to me.  I know Steve was the first to actually be credited as such, but Adrian clearly is filling the role at this point, and I think he was the first guitarist other than Frank himself to play in any version of The Mothers or Frank's band.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: darkshade on March 15, 2017, 02:37:47 PM
Was it this thread that someone realized it's actually pronounced "Shake Your Booty"? as opposed to "sheek yer booty"

If not, that's how you pronounce it, and I didn't know until recently.

For a second, I was about to say you forgot Orchestral Favorites, but as I said the Lather era is confusing. That album got released after this one I believe. Anyway, this album contains some Lather stuff, but this album is not related to the Warner albums or Lather itself, aside from Conceptual Continuity; and a reference by Terry Ted Bozzio that the Lather era was drawn out, and it was "time for sum new shit". :lol Now that I think about it, almost every album after 1978 references Lather in some form or another.

This album is hilarious every time I listen to it. I did not like it at first, along with Joe's Garage and any of his 'rock' albums from the late 70s-mid 80s. I think the whole concept went way over my head, but this was (is) considered one of Frank's most popular albums, so I kept giving it a try. I did initially enjoy City of Tiny Lights, especially with Adrian Belew on vocals, and I had gotten into Frank not long after getting into King Crimson. Plus, that is a classic Zappa tune (I like the 88 band version even more but I'm jumping ahead again) I also thought Bobby Brown was quite funny.

This album got to me later on, when I went in with fresh ears, not expecting Inca Roads, or RDNZL, or King Kong, and just went in and listened. Well, that changed everything for me, because I "got it" and in fact, I was able to expand my Zappa knowledge because I understood what he was doing at this time period, and I was starting to turn into a Zappa freak where almost every note of his music needed to go through my ear holes. Having context helps, he was pissed about the Lather/Warner Bros. fiasco, and was clearly venting, musically, with this album, he had a new, younger band; but also lyrically, as from here on out his lyrics became more and more cynical, political, and the social commentary became even more controversial.

But seriously this album is a trip, goes through many musical styles, and gives you a taste of what Lather was like, since it has those quick cuts to odd percussion and creepy voices in the back of the studio/basement in between 'real' songs.

And of course, there are differences between the 2012 CDs and older CDs. The 2012 one reverts to the original vinyl mix, which means it includes about two minutes or so of more music than the older CDs, since Zappa himself re-sequenced (is that the right term?) the album so that the end of the vinyl 'sides' jumped right into the first track on the next 'side' without a pause. For some reason the last two minutes of I'm So Cute were cut out, but were restored on the 2012 CD. Also, the older CDs have some sound issues, which are all resolved on the 2012 CDs since it is the analog mix.

Also, Broken Hearts Are For Assholes is total  :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal every time!!!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Orbert on March 15, 2017, 02:54:14 PM
I think it was in the Zappa thread that I mentioned the pronunciation.  In the U.S., "sheik" is often pronounced "sheek".  But I was watching a news broadcast talking about the oil czars of the Middle East, most of whom hold the title of "sheik" and the guy pronounced it "shake".  And I suddenly realized that if that's the correct pronunciation, then the title of this album is pronounced "Shake Yerbouti".  And I laughed out loud, much to the confusion of my dad and sister who were watching TV with me.

I got the 2012 CD for Christmas.  I specifically requested the 2012 version because it restores all the electronic freaking out at the end of "I'm So Cute" which I love, and in general is the same mix/edit as the original vinyl.

(https://i.imgur.com/XFIPqw8.jpg)


"...and yet, he was a beautiful lady..."
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Mosh on March 15, 2017, 03:18:11 PM
This album is fantastic. Will listen tomorrow and give a more detailed review. Some general comments though:

Personally, I think it's really cool that it's clearly a studio album, but ends with a "mostly live" track and Frank introducing the band, not unlike on Bongo Fury.  After a double album, you feel like you've just sat through a performance of a masterwork, and of course you have.

This is what blew my mind when I first heard the album. This was an early one for me too and still wasn't totally familiar with Zappa's methods. It sounds like it was all recorded in the studio, but then at the end of Yo Mama the crowd noise fades in and Frank introduces the band. Then looking at the liner notes I realized that the majority of this was recorded live with overdubs. I couldn't believe it. Obviously it's a clean recording and there are overdubs, but the performances that were live recorded are so tight.

This album is a masterclass in overdubbing. It doesn't seem like Frank is overdubbing whatever didn't come out right live (although I'm sure there was some of that), but he's adding layers that couldn't be produced live. But it also isn't overdone. The live recorded foundations are still the main focus in most songs.

Then there's the xenochrony. Sheik Yer Bouti was clearly a test run for Joe's Garage, but I think it actually works better on this album.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Podaar on March 15, 2017, 03:46:29 PM
This is, by far, the Zappa album I've listened to the most. Every single second of it is engraved on my soul. If I really wanted to, I could probably sing my way through the entire album including whistle most of the guitar solos.

When it came out I already had Over-Nite Sensation, Apostrophe ('), One Size Fits All, and Studio Tan: in addition I was quite familiar with JABfLA and Zappa in New York because of a buddy I hung out with played them all the time. But, this album just knocked us all over because it kinda blended all those styles and then added a more modern (at the time) rock sound. The patented hilarious Zappa satire was turned up to 11 yet the musicianship was still there. I love listening to it just as much today as I did way back then.

I don't know, it's hard to describe how much Sheik Yerbouti is weaved into the fabric of my life. Like the first time I met a (truly beautiful) woman named Dagmar...I couldn't help it. I snickered. Then I had to get away as fast as I could so I could go somewhere and cry.

Is there any greater accompaniment to being baked than Rat Tomago?

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Mosh on March 15, 2017, 10:31:08 PM
This album is incredible. One of his best and most fun albums. I was obsessed with it after discovering it for the first time. It was my go to Zappa album for a very long time.

I Have Been In You - One of Zappa's prettiest songs musically, with one of his most irreverent lyric. Love this tune. Reminds me of a modern take on the early Mothers "pop" songs, but with a heavier late 70s sound.

Flakes - Adrian Belew's Bob Dylan impression is possibly the most memorable moment on this album. But the rest of the song isn't too shabby either. Really nice buildup in the outro. Also some really great synthesizer playing. Love what Tommy Mars added to this band.

There's a lot of really aggressive music on here. Zappa's music can be obtuse, but I wouldn't describe anything he's done prior to this as "heavy". Even songs like Jones Crusher, which is more blues than punk, have a ton of energy. Of course a lot of this has to do with the great Terry Bozzio. Probably the heaviest hitter to play with Zappa and also added a new vocal texture to the group. It helps that these heavier songs are plentiful in clever Zappa twists. Like the big chorus in Trying To Grow a Chin.

"What Ever Happened To..." and the other interlude tracks bring back fond memories of the 60s Zappa, particularly Lumpy Gravy and We're Only In It For the Money.

Love the xenochrony tracks. Especially Rat Tomago is awesome. Again, a test drive for Joe's Garage and even stuff like Shut Up and Play Yer Guitar. Zappa rarely recorded guitar solos in the studio after this and I think that was a genius move. He has some great studio solos, but his playing really took off in the live environment. Love how he throws in tracks of him just jamming. Especially in this context, I didn't need another version of Torture Never Stops, I appreciate him going straight to the good stuff with the album edit. Also Rubber Shirt is bizarrely cool.

Bobby Brown is awesome. I can see how something like this would be catchy. It's one of his catchiest tunes. But it's also hilarious.

City of Tiny Lites is a bit of a throwback to Overnite Sensation/Roxy/etc, but the addition of Belew gives it a new flavor. This is also a tune where the live recording is a major benefit. This song was just built for live jams.

Don't miss the conceptual continuity in Wild Love, it ends with what would eventually become Sinister Footwear 2nd Movement!

Can't think of a better way to end this album than with a blistering guitar solo in Yo Mama.  :metal

I haven't heard all the 80s albums, but from what I've heard so far I would say this is the last Zappa album that perfectly marries humor and mindblowing music. Joe's Garage has both sides as well, but I feel most songs lean a little too far one way or the other without really blending the two sides the way Sheik Yerbouti does. And that is pretty much how I feel about his 80s work.

Sheik Yerbouti is one of those albums that has something for just about every type of Zappa fan. There's lowbrow humor, biting social commentary, catchy tunes, studio experimentation, musical parodies, jazz fusion extravaganzas. . . all in a very accessible package. One of his best albums and probably among the best 5 for a new fan.

Also, despite being a double album, it goes by really fast. Doesn't feel like 80 minutes at all. Not a single dull moment. Maybe I could do without Wild Love, but even that song is worth it for the cool instrumental ending. It also helps that the songs are mostly pretty short and there's a lot of variety. This album hits hard and fast.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Podaar on March 16, 2017, 07:02:44 AM
I would never want to do with out Wild Love... the snide satire is so thick that it paints a perfect picture of Frank's opinion of main stream life and dating. I think it's hilarious and the music is really interesting.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Orbert on March 16, 2017, 07:48:14 AM
I was in a study group in high school taking A.P. Physics, and I was that oddball who could hang with the smart kids, the popular kids, the burnouts, or the band kids.  We'd meet a couple times a week at one of the houses and study for a few hours, then afterwards we'd treat ourselves to a snack and some music.  We met at Paul's house and he had a great record collection, but after a while we started bringing our own stuff to share with the others.  I brought Sheik Yerbouti one night and played Side Four (Wild Love / Yo Mama).

It was surprisingly well received by the "smart" crowd, even Frank's otherworldly solo in Yo Mama.  Towards the end, as you can feel it coming back for the last verse, Paul predicted "He's gonna sing the last verse like nothing just happened" and of course he was right.  High fives.

I've had the Wild Love / Yo Mama twofer on mix tapes and now iPod playlists as long as I can remember.  Going on 40 years.  I love the "Elvis" breaks in Wild Love (or whoever that's supposed to be).  So bizarre yet hilarious.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Podaar on March 16, 2017, 08:07:44 AM
Speaking of the Yo' Mama guitar solo: I've heard some folks (I think it was on the Portnoy forum) mention that they hate it because it just sounds like sloppy noodling. This was coming from someone who claimed to be a guitar player. Now I'm not a musician but it never seemed that way to me. When I tried to point out that, while it may not be conventional, it certainly was a composed guitar feature because the accompaniment by the band is in such lockstep with every note Frank played. I was told I didn't know what I was talking about.

I think I remember reading a comment by Steve Vai defending Frank's playing. He said he could transcribe every note and show that Frank was being very intentional with his choices. That they were precisely conveying what Frank wanted the music to sound like. He also said that Frank's desire for the music may change from concert to concert but that he new what he was doing.

Is that correct, do you think?

[edit] I guess I put my foot in it, eh? I just read that the guitar solo was stitched together in studio from several performances and then overdubbed  :lol [/edit]
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 16, 2017, 09:54:24 AM
Sheik Yerboutti was also my first bought Zappa album after hearing parts of 'Joe's Garage' and this one at a friends house. I bought it, put it on and was instantly sold. The album is pretty much flawless on all levels, although I'm not a real fan of the 'a-tonal' stuff going on. As much as I love all the songs on this album, Frank's a-tonal soloing used to drive me up the WALL after a while. 'Them or Us' being a good example. Reason for me not to buy all the 'Guitar' albums.  Contrary to some statements on here however I feel it DOES feel like a live album, once you know how to search for it. The intro to 'City of Tiny Lights' for instance, you can clearly hear the audience. There is no question that this was some of the greatest live bands Frank has worked with. No wonder it was so productive.

Af for a weird side-note, in 1988, having just gotten 'somewhat' into Zappa, I walked into an open-air disco-bar kind of scene on a biker holliday in Kristiansand, Norway. Imagine my surprise when what was playing on the speaker system was 'The Subliminal Scrutinizer' off of Joe's Garage....
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Orbert on March 16, 2017, 12:09:20 PM
Speaking of the Yo' Mama guitar solo: I've heard some folks (I think it was on the Portnoy forum) mention that they hate it because it just sounds like sloppy noodling. This was coming from someone who claimed to be a guitar player. Now I'm not a musician but it never seemed that way to me. When I tried to point out that, while it may not be conventional, it certainly was a composed guitar feature because the accompaniment by the band is in such lockstep with every note Frank played. I was told I didn't know what I was talking about.

I think I remember reading a comment by Steve Vai defending Frank's playing. He said he could transcribe every note and show that Frank was being very intentional with his choices. That they were precisely conveying what Frank wanted the music to sound like. He also said that Frank's desire for the music may change from concert to concert but that he new what he was doing.

Is that correct, do you think?

[edit] I guess I put my foot in it, eh? I just read that the guitar solo was stitched together in studio from several performances and then overdubbed  :lol [/edit]

The solo was indeed another "Frankenstein", but IMO that doesn't make it any less impressive.  Frank took pieces of other solos and made them work against a completely different backdrop.  There are places where you can tell he intentionally lined things up.  I love the guitar line going into where the keyboards first come in, then again later when the chords start that long build-up to the recapitulation.  The fact that this solo never actually took place in real time doesn't bother me.  It's probably even more impressive, given that it transforms the solo into a true "composition".
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Podaar on March 16, 2017, 12:27:55 PM
I agree. It feels like a complete composition to me as well.

So why do you think there are some who don't see it that way? Is it just that having been exposed to Frank's music for years we just naturally "get" what he was doing? I guess I'm just confused by guitarists telling me that his playing is sloppy and noodly. I've heard the same criticism for Watermelon in Easter Hay.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Mosh on March 16, 2017, 12:50:28 PM
I would say one possible reason is his use of odd tuplets. Stuff like 11 sixteenth notes in the space of one quarter note. He does this a lot. A sloppy player might do something like this on accident, but it's pretty clearly intentional with Zappa. Not only is it really precise in his solos, but he also wrote these into a lot of his compositions (see the end of Wild Love for example). It might seem sloppy to someone who doesn't know better though.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Orbert on March 16, 2017, 12:54:08 PM
My best guess is that it's the atonality.  They don't hear standard Western scales or arpeggios or anything else that their ears can grab onto, so it just sounds like noodling to them.

Do they have the same reaction when they hear Frank's more obviously blues-influenced stuff?  Frank's closing solo from "The Be-Bop Tango" on Roxy & Elsewhere is great, and is straight R&B.  See what they think of that.


Good call on the odd submetrics though, too.  I can hear him very clearly fitting in exactly the notes he wants to play, regardless of how many there are and how it subdivides, but to untrained ears it's probably just wanky.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #26 'Sheik Yerbouti'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 16, 2017, 03:05:44 PM
Good call on the odd submetrics though, too.  I can hear him very clearly fitting in exactly the notes he wants to play, regardless of how many there are and how it subdivides, but to untrained ears it's probably just wanky.

I'm more on your side with that. I don't think Zappa thought a lot while soloing. He always went for it, always starting with a blank sheet. I really admire him for that. Never starting with the same lick in the same song, really pushing the band to follow him dynamically, rhythmically and emotionally. Solo's could go on for ever, and oftentimes they nearly did. (See Guitar, and Shut Up...)

I don't think Zappa intended to play an 11 over 6 tuplet, but it did come out that way. It would fit very well, just because the phrase started and ended where he wanted it to start and end.
I also love the fact that you can actually hear him trying out stuff, new scales or new repeatable blocks or segments that the band could follow. A solo was the moment the stage got 1 square meter big, and he was in his element.

And sure stuff goes wrong, sure some solo's don't go where they 'should go' (generic guitar solo-wise), but every solo is a story, and there's not a lot of guitarists who do that. (Speaking of that kind of guitar players, I read an interview with Roine Stolt in PROG magazine stating that Zappa is his biggest influence, because 'You can't deny his massive output')


Finally: I love seeing all of your enthusiasm on this album! I am still liking this album more and more on each listen. Recently bought the vinyl, that certainly helps. The air and space fits this album.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 20, 2017, 04:02:19 PM
Official Release #27 'Orchestral Favourites'
(Released 05/1979)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/Orchestral_Favorites.jpg)

Background Information:
The final of the Läther albums. This one consists of a collection of Zappa orchestral pieces. Frank had a lot of trouble with releasing orchestral music. The transition from the notes that he wrote to the sounds the orchestra made was never really what he imagined (partly because orchestra’s wouldn’t rehearse, unless you paid them fully, partly because the music was complicated, but also because of the way orchestra’s looked at Zappa, a ‘pop-musician’ all of a sudden writing scores), and then the cost was the biggest problem. After writing the score, and paying a copyist, and paying the orchestra a great sum of money, stuff like this wouldn’t sell. His entire career, Frank has been writing pop tunes to pay for his orchestral albums and projects.
The group, the Abnuceals Emuukha Electric Orchestra, is the same as on Lumpy Gravy, although only a couple musicians played on both Lumpy Gravy and Orchestral Favorites.

The Album Itself:
First of all, it’s all orchestral music. The album has no vocals, and features Zappa on guitar only once. Apart from that it is a perfect combination of Zappa’s classical works and his pop-tunes (but played by an orchestra). Tracks like Strictly Genteel (off 200 Motels) and Bogus Pomp (which is a medley of 200 Motels themes) are old tracks, which sound different, but since most of the themes in those songs were played by an orchestra all along, it’s like listening to a singled out track of those recordings. Duke of Prunes is even older and this is a really interesting arrangement, featuring a great guitar solo by Zappa. (If you are interested in reading more on the actual arrangement in terms of form, look up the analysis on zappa-analysis.com)
The remaining two tracks would appear later on one of the two London Symphony Orchestra albums, which, sadly make this album pretty abundant. The sound quality on that one is better, and the tracklist mostly the same (with the exception of Duke of Prunes, which in the meantime is one of the highlights of this album).
This album is an overlooked one, but the problem is that it’s overlooked for good reason.

Essential Tracks:
Duke of Prunes
Bogus Pomp
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: Mosh on March 20, 2017, 11:05:38 PM
I don't think Orchestral Favorites is that bad. The weakest of the Lather albums, sure, but it has its merits. I actually think it is a decent introduction to Frank Zappa's orchestral side. Not quite as dense or long as some of his other orchestral works. There is some really accessible stuff here with Duke of Prunes and Strictly Genteel. The latter is one of my favorite songs of his and I am always open to the various interpretations that exist. Maybe not as good as the 200 Motels version, but it's still enjoyable on here.
I always liked Duke of Prunes, but this version is at the next level. Also a masterful blend of rock band and orchestra. I'm actually a little disappointed he didn't go more in this direction. I suspect he wanted to be seen as a "serious" composer and not seen as relying heavily on rock bands. The guitar solo is also fantastic.

As for everything else, I like Bogus Pomp. There are some really nice melodies and experimental moments throughout. It can be grating if I'm not in the right mood, but in the right mood it's a cool piece. The other two pieces are OK. Kinda reminiscent of Lumpy Gravy but not as exciting. Still interesting.

I also like the orchestra. Didn't realize this was the same group that recorded Lumpy Gravy, it seems they changed since then (not just in personnel). Some interesting use of their instruments, such as violin through a wah pedal. It works with what Frank is doing.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: Orbert on March 21, 2017, 07:13:00 AM
I have to be honest, the constant references to Lather, and how it renders the original recordings less relevant or inferior or whatever, is somewhat annoying.  Even just comparing them, rather than simply evaluating the albums on their own merits, seems to devalue the original albums.  I grew up with these older albums and enjoyed them long before anyone other than Frank himself had any idea what Lather was or was to be, and it was decades later, long after I'd stopped "actively collecting" that he finally released it.  I downloaded it in its entirety, and still haven't bothered to listen to it all the way through.  It's just too daunting, too much.  I like Frank, but in smaller doses I guess.  In the big picture, Lather is the grand statement of which we were only given glimpses of before.  But from my perspective, it's a huge repackaging and reworking of mostly material I already had.

I like Orchestral Favorites.  It's orchestral versions of Frank's music.  I couldn't tell you which track is which by just hearing it, as I tend to put on albums and just let them play all the way through, so without any lyrics and without sitting there with the record jacket, I never associate the tracks with their titles.  But it's good stuff to put on and zone out to.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 21, 2017, 07:36:15 AM
Ugliest cover EVER. Period.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 21, 2017, 07:38:57 AM
Btw. I don't mean that this album becomes abundant because of Läther, I mean it does so because of the later released LSO I & II, most songs are on there, and sound (way) better. If those album wouldn't have existed this would have been an almost essential Zappa album. The problem is that LSO is more what Zappa had in mind all along. (Although apart from him being able to edit the tape so that most mistakes were omitted, I can't seem to find the quote I had in mind considering the sound of the orchestra on Orchestral Favorites vs. LSO)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 21, 2017, 08:22:15 AM
There's an entire chapter in his 'The Real Frank Zappa Book' about what his experiences with recording the LSO were. Worth checking out!  ;D
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: Podaar on March 21, 2017, 08:24:39 AM
I've only listened to this a few times and only in recent years. The Duke of Prunes (I really like the addition of Bozzio, Frank and the electric bass to the arrangement) and Bogus Pomp are what I recall enjoying the most.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 21, 2017, 09:19:06 AM
There's an entire chapter in his 'The Real Frank Zappa Book' about what his experiences with recording the LSO were. Worth checking out!  ;D

Of course, that's where I read that. Will check it out again this week.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: Mosh on March 21, 2017, 09:44:22 AM
I do prefer the albums as they were released to Lather. They are easier to digest and make more sense as separate albums. Lather is way too long and just seems like a collection of unrelated material without much thought given to the sequencing or overall concept (which Frank was usually more conscious of). Context is important too. This was Frank trying to quickly get out of a bad contract with Warner. An overblown compilation delivered with a middle finger to the label rather than a grand artistic vision.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: darkshade on March 25, 2017, 08:41:37 AM
Orchestral Favorites is an interesting one. First off, we have to remember this was recorded in 1975, and to me, is the least related to Lather, as only two songs here are on Lather, the rest are older tunes rearranged for this ensemble. If you like orchestral Zappa, you'll like this. I find this album is the 'easiest' of Frank's orchestral/ensemble albums to get into. There's some moments with guitar, keyboard synths, clavinet, and rock drums. These moments are short and fleeting, don't expect it the whole time; in fact, it's mostly in the final tune, Bogus Pomp, which is always a fun one, the highlight of the album for me. I don't remember a lot of 20th Century Classical music with synths flying around here and there. There are better versions of Strictly Genteel, but this one is nice. Duke of Prunes pops up here, and is always good in an orchestral setting. The Lather tunes are dark, dense, and bring you into another world, as much of Frank's orchestral work does. Other than that, I don't know how to describe the music here, it is beyond any of Frank's rock/jazz stuff.

Also, I always forget how short this album is. I feel like I just put it on 10 minutes ago. I think it's like 33 minutes long, that's like an EP length.

I do prefer the albums as they were released to Lather. They are easier to digest and make more sense as separate albums. Lather is way too long and just seems like a collection of unrelated material without much thought given to the sequencing or overall concept (which Frank was usually more conscious of). Context is important too. This was Frank trying to quickly get out of a bad contract with Warner. An overblown compilation delivered with a middle finger to the label rather than a grand artistic vision.

I find Lather is like jumping into the head of Frank, and if it had been released as it was meant to be it would have gone down as one of the great masterpieces of the 1970s, right around the time of art music losing popularity it might have been seen as pretentious but history would have been kind to it, look at Tales From Topographic Oceans, or The Wall. Since that's not what happened, Lather is seen as a 'posthumous' box-set/compilation album. I see Lather as "the album" that should have been released as the follow up to Zoot Allures in 1977, with Zappa in New York released in 1978 (ZNY was always going to have an official release) and maybe some album would have been made featuring all the songs between the other 3 albums that didn't make it to Lather. However, you could say, that due to the frustration I'm sure Frank felt in dealing with Warner, court dates, delaying the release of his music, that his music would have been different from here on out.

I usually listen to Lather one disc at a time, though. All 5 albums contain original music unique to it, so it's worth having all 5 and it's nice having different choices.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 25, 2017, 10:32:32 AM
I think 'Lather' as it was at the time (a Multi-dubble vinyl album set) would have been commercially VERY hard to sell to a non-Zappa-phile. Prince was to have the same problems at exactly the same recordlabel a few years down the line.  As was George Clinton having at the same time period with Funkadelic at Warner Brothers.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: Mosh on March 25, 2017, 02:55:05 PM
I think 'Lather' as it was at the time (a Multi-dubble vinyl album set) would have been commercially VERY hard to sell to a non-Zappa-phile. Prince was to have the same problems at exactly the same recordlabel a few years down the line.  As was George Clinton having at the same time period with Funkadelic at Warner Brothers.



And just last year the band Avenged Sevenfold had similar issues with WB, who (unsuccessfully) attempted to undermine their new release on a different label with an unauthorized album. Sound familiar? Some things never change.

I dunno, I'll listen to it again when we get there but my recollection of Lather was that it wasn't assembled that well. A huge bulk of it is material from Zappa In New York, but with edits I'm not fond of. Better to just listen to ZINY. As for everything else: you've got some more edits of Sleep Dirt material, very little from Orchestral Favorites, some stuff that would appear on future albums, and a couple tunes exclusive to that collection. The sequencing didn't really make me hear the material differently and I wasn't convinced that it had a purpose other than getting out of a bad contract.

That's the officially released version at least, is the one he played on the radio in the 70s any different?

Also, I don't think the music on the three Lather albums is all that great. This was a transitional period for Frank. The strengths of his newest band hadn't quite been revealed yet.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #27 'Orchestral Favorites'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 27, 2017, 03:57:34 AM
To my knowledge the one that ZFT released in the 90's is the same thing that Zappa played on the radio in the 70's.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts 1, 2&3'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 27, 2017, 04:02:00 AM
Official Release #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
(Released 09/1979 + 11/1979)

(https://images.genius.com/b519255ee247d62e5df734154d94b5ba.1000x1000x1.jpg)

Background Information:
Perhaps not unsurprisingly all three acts will be discussed here as a single album. Though Act I was released first, and Acts II and III were released as a double album 2 months later (Zappa realised that releasing a triple album financially  ‘might be hard on people the way the world is today’) this album has afterwards (1987 and onwards) always been rereleased as a set (either triple vinyl or double cd).
While Zappa was busy with handling off the Warner/Läther feud, he wrote Sheik Yerbouti, but even before that came out he started writing the follow-up to that record. (Orchestral Favorites was released in between, but not by Zappa, see above)
Originally ‘Catholic Girls’ and the title track were supposed to be stand-alone singles, but while working on that, and in between long jams by Zappa’s then band, he noticed the songs connected, and he wrote a story to make it a coherent rock-opera.
At the end of the recording cycle of this album the Utility Muffin Research Kitchen, Zappa’s home studio, was completed, making this the last album he recorded in a commercial studio.
Although this album received mixed reviews (because of the profanities again, because, you know, you can’t enjoy the music if the song is about ‘mammalian protuberances’), it is viewed by Zappa fans as one of his greatest works. Both band/guitar-wise and lyrics/humour-wise.
This album also debuted Ike Willis, a versatile singer, with a taste for the bizarre, a love of wordplay as well as a strong political view on everything that’s stupid (we’ll get to Confinement Loaf later on).

The Album Itself:
 A rock opera told by The Central Scrutinizer (a government employee) about Joe, a young man who forms a band just as the government prepares to criminalise music. Joe has his first confrontation with the law as his neighbour calls the police. The police are nice on him, and tell him to stick closer to Church Oriented Social Activities. When he comes back from earning an honest living, he finds his girlfriend Mary sucking off crew members backstage. She goes on tour with them, gets dumped off in Miami, and needs to participate in a wet t-shirt contest to win money to get back home. While standing on stage Mary gets recognised by an old friend of Joe, he decides to send him a letter about Mary exploits, Joe responds by picking up a cheap girl (Lucille) and getting an ‘unpronounceable disease’ from her. The Central Scrutinizer ends Act I by asking whether it was the girl or the music messing up Joe’s mind.

Now in Act II and III it gets messy. Joe starts off by going to L. Ron Hoover’s First Church of Appliantology, where he learns how to be sexually attracted to machines, and how to speak German, because that’s what gets those machines hot. When his eye falls on some sort of industrial vacuum cleaner (get the 200 Motel reference?), he bursts into song. Eventually Sy Borg (the machine) short circuits when Joe keeps ‘plooking’ too hard. Joe gets arrested by The Central Scrutiziner, and ends up in a special musicians-prison, where Joe, wearing a housewife costume because that’s what Sy Borg liked, gets jumped on by every other prisoner. Joe gets through his time by dreaming up guitar solo’s like ‘Reent-toont-teent-toont-teenooneenoonee’.
At the start of Act III Joe gets out of prison, seeing the world without music, and starts seeing visions of his old neighbour and his old girlfriend. Finally he goes back to his room and dreams up his last guitar solo.
The album ends with A Little Green Rosetta, which apparently has no meaning at all. Or, as the lyrics say: ‘Because anybody who would buy this record doesn’t give a fuck if there’s good musicians on it, because this is a stupid song AND THAT’S THE WAY I LIKE IT’. The song might be included on this album because it was intended to go on Läther, but was cut by Warner.

Musically the album’s all over the place. Tracks like Joe’s Garage and Why Does It Hurt… are little rockers, Catholic Girls a a lot more complicated than it at first may sound (the same goes for Keep It Greasy, that’s 19/16 for ya), Sy Borg and Outside Now are actually very beautiful tracks but both can’t hold a candle to the beauty that Watermelon In Easter Hay is.

Although it’s easy to see that the album is full of inside jokes (the white zone…), has a story that could belong to a ‘Cheap high-school play’ (Zappa’s own words) and is a product that obviously ‘gives way at the seems’ (dixit Ben Watson, referring to Zappa himself cracking up during the Central Scrutinizer monologues), it is extremely well produced (a tad more lively, or less clean, than for instance Sheik Yerbouti, but still overflowing with the weird world that is Xenochrony), it is incredibly diverse, extremely musical and above all very enjoyable.

Essential Tracks:
Joe's Garage
Catholic Girls
Sy Borg
Keep It Greasy
Outside Now
Watermelon In Easter Hay

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Orbert on March 27, 2017, 07:07:07 AM
As I mentioned earlier, Sheik Yerbouti is where I really started digging into Zappa/Mothers, and as it was the latest release at the time, I had nowhere to go but backwards, in terms of finding more to check out.  When Joe's Garage Act I came out, I was intrigued, of course.  Frank going for the full-blown concept album.  As with most concept albums, some of the songs were already written before the idea to make them part of a larger work came about, and it showed.  The lengths to which Frank had to go in terms of story just to have some of these songs make sense is pretty extreme.  Joe learns to speak German, for example, because the song "Stick It Out" already existed and much of it was in German (it was originally part of a "German suite" of sorts).

Act I is solid, and even after Acts II & III came out, I still tended to just play Act I unless I specifically wanted to check them out.  The story gets a bit crazy for me and frankly much less interesting.  It's the music and the concept which keep me going, but things like "A Token of My Extreme" and "Dong Work for Yuda" are just skippable as far as I'm concerned.

I thought that according to the story, Joe actually ends up with a job at the Utility Muffin Research Kitchen, not Frank's studio, but a bakery in the story, where his job is to poot forth little green rosettas on top of muffins, thus the song "A Little Green Rosetta".  Now that I think about it, that would make more sense for cupcakes, but it's been a while, and my records are stashed right now so I can't look it up.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Mosh on March 27, 2017, 11:17:31 PM
I consider Sheik Yerbouti the end of Zappa's golden age and Joe's Garage the beginning of a more inconsistent period. A lot of things I dislike about his music in the 80s start to appear here. Lyrics/message overpowering the music, heavy handed lyrics that lack the cleverness of his earlier work, and somewhat dull music with production that's almost too polished and perfect. I'm also not too fond of Ike Willis, who makes his first appearance here. I'm not sure if it's because he was the mouthpiece for some of Zappa's worst material, but I've come to dislike the sound of his voice and the way he delivers Frank's lyrics.

This album is extremely bloated. A lot of songs overstay their welcome (Lucille, A Token of My Extreme, Sy Borg). They're enjoyable tunes at first, but then after 2 or 3 minutes it becomes grating. It's usually the same musical idea repeated seemingly endlessly. I'm a music guy first, so hearing the music serve pretty much as a background while Frank exhibits this really half baked story isn't much fun for me. My favorite songs on the album are the ones that have some interesting music (Catholic Girls, Keep It Greasy).

Now this isn't to say I only like Zappa instrumental. I love a lot of Zappa's lyrics. Absolutely Free is an example of the album that is elevated by its lyrics and vocals. Or a more recent (relative to this album) example is Sheik Yerbouti, which is also very vocal driven, but the lyrics and vocal melodies are so much better. There's also better music to latch on to. I just don't think the story or lyrics on Joe's Garage are very clever. There's a really interesting story in there, but it's sidelined by songs about various forms of plooking. There are some funny parts and moments of brilliance, but those are fleeting and not up to the standard that Frank has set for himself by this point.

OK that's all the negative stuff. There's still a lot of good things here. First of all, the guitar solos.  :metal Frank delivers some of his best guitar playing on this album. The use of xenochrony is genius. Sometimes the solos fit in so perfectly that it's hard to tell that they were part of a different song. Other times it's disjointed in such a way that it actually works. The xenochrony also actually fits the theme of the album toward the end. I like that the guitar solos are a character on the album as much as Joe or L. Ron Hoover are. However, the best guitar solo is the only one that was recorded in the studio. Watermelon In Easter Hay is one of Frank's crowning achievements. Not my #1 Zappa guitar solo (that goes to Inca Roads), but it's in the top 3. Watermelon also shows a rarely shown melancholy side to Zappa's music. You also hear this in Outside Now. It's an interesting dimension to his music and one of the things that actually puts Joe's Garage in its own class.

Also, despite my earlier criticisms of the album's lyrics, some of the most memorable Zappa lines are on here. Mostly on the first disc. Lots of hilarious stuff there. I always loved the "Here comes the ice pick in the forehead!" bit.

A few other good songs too. Catholic Girls is awesome, Why Does It Hurt When I Pee is funny and extremely catchy. A Little Green Rosetta is the perfect finale. The album does start and end well, but there's a lot of fat in the middle. Overall a mixed bag of an album that I don't go for too often mostly due to its length. Act I by itself is very strong though and I'll often listen to just that + the last two tracks.




Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 28, 2017, 02:36:36 AM
Pretty much agree with all of the above post, Act I was perfect. The melodic guitarpart-harmony  in the title track towards the end is godly. I for one LOVE Ike Willis' s vocals. But then, I was a big fan of Ray White and Napoleon Murphy Brock. Catholic Girls, Crew Slut, all pretty ruthless. Why does it hurt when I pee was a long time favourite of mine.

But Acts II and III is where the album goes awry for me as well. Some standout tracks Outside Now, Dong Work for Yuda, Keep it greasy and Packard Goose. And Lucille has messed my mind up. But others are wayyyyy overlong and repetitive. Too much plookin'  and Uher 57 Telefunken in-jokes.

As a parody Joe's Garage worked as a great, but far from perfect view on showbizz and the 'American way of life.' Musically there is a lot to enjoy and some of the vocal harmonies are resplended, indeed!  Act I got lots of spins, act II and III, eh, not so much.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 28, 2017, 03:46:01 AM
Funny thing is that I like act one the best too, I think, but act three has gotten the most plays over the years. The third disc is one of the only Zappa albums that has so many good ballads on it. Whenever I'm in a sentimental mood and want to listen to Zappa anyway, Joe Act III is the way to go. Oh and Watermelon is my favourite 'slow song' by Zappa, no question.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Podaar on March 28, 2017, 06:27:00 AM
Okay, it's official. I'm a total musical idiot and completely backward. I know you folks are talking about Joe's Garage, but I don't recognize most of what you're saying. A Token of My Extreme and Dong Work for Yuda skippable? I don't even understand. Terry's vocal performance on DWfY alone is worth the price of the entire album, "I need a dozen taows, so the boys can take a shaow." Not to mention the songs are quite bouncy, fun and keep the story going.

Speaking of the story, I may be totally out on a limb here, but it's supposed to be cobbled together and stupid. That's the parody. My understanding was that Frank was completely making fun of the entire idea of concept albums. By taking a bunch of unrelated songs and barely stitching them together with the central scrutinizer and conceptual continuity. Yet, he couldn't help himself and still had something to say about oppression, modernity and the beauty of music...which wound up making it the perfect concept album. Until this thread, I've never met a Zappa fan who thought otherwise.

This record is not perfect, but to me it is damned close. I can't possibly imagine how anyone who enjoys Sheik Yerbouti could have anything negative to say about Joe's Garage. The second seems to be a natural extension of the first. But to each there own, I guess. Today, I am truly grateful for my ignorance.

[edit] Okay, I had a shower and another cup of coffee. I thought about it some more and decided I behaved poorly above. That's way too passive-aggressive so allow me to restate it:

I love this album, it's not perfect but it's so close that I wouldn't change a thing! Y'all are poo-poo heads for saying naughty things about it. ;) [/edit]
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 28, 2017, 07:30:21 AM
 :lol No need to excuse yourself, a difference in taste can never be ignorance  :) Love your enthusiasm!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Orbert on March 28, 2017, 07:35:11 AM
I too have met folks who love all three acts, the whole dang thang.  That's fine.  I've come to appreciate Acts II & III more over the years, but they're down the list a bit for me.

I can tell you exactly why.  For me, Act II starts off on the wrong foot with not one, but two songs about male gay sex.  Call me a homophobe, but that just grosses me the fuck out.  Don't want to think about it, sure as hell don't want to listen to songs about it.  I always skip "Dong Work" and "Keep It Greasy".  After that, I think there are a bunch of guitar solos, mostly very good, loosely strung together with some kind of narrative, but by then I'm not even paying attention anymore, and then it's over.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 28, 2017, 09:29:26 AM
It was clear that once Frank had aquired the Utility Muffin Research Kitchen,  he just didn't care what the f*ck people thought about his lyrics. He just went all out.
It was like 'hey, so gay sex grosses you out? Here you go! Bam! Keep it Greasy. Dong Work, Sy Borg. 'So Anti-Religion lyrics pisses you off? Here!' Bam! Catholic Girls.  I think he was so pissed off at WB, he enjoyed releasing the HELL out of this.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: tofee35 on March 28, 2017, 10:14:02 AM
A story, that only some of you may enjoy. Dale Bozzio's mother babysat my wife when she was a kid. The day I met her (2012), I had no clue who she was. We were picking up old furniture from her mother's house. She mentioned her son was listening to Zappa and I commented that I'm obsessed with Zappa. She then said, "well I'm Mary". I replied "FROM THE BUS?" My wife, to this day, says she never saw me so shocked and excited in a moment. It's a bizarre thing, but I still can't believe my wife never mentioned it before I actually met her.

Anyway, I love this album. Nihil-Morari, I love your anecdotes and information about all of FZ's albums. One day, I'm going to read them all.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Podaar on March 28, 2017, 10:25:24 AM
 :tup :tup
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Orbert on March 28, 2017, 10:37:24 AM
Okay, I have to ask.  Is Dale still hot?  Back in the day, she was smokin'.  Pretty cool that you met "Mary".


As most of you know, I was in a rock band in the 80's which actually managed to pay the bills for nearly two years.  We traveled around the Midwest in a converted school bus, painted blue and named Phydeaux III.  The Bus!  I just remembered that.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Podaar on March 28, 2017, 10:53:06 AM
I almost forgot to relate a story about this album. Not Orbert caliber but ya'll might enjoy it.

Many years ago, I was waiting inline at the drive through teller at my Credit Union and listening to Joe's Garage. It was payday and I was a young divorced father and was thinking that my ex would probably be waiting at my house for the child-support check. I was also daydreaming about a woman I was dating and wondering if I'd have any money to take her out this week. It was summer, I had things to do, bills to pay. Anyway, I had a lot on my mind and wasn't really listening to the stereo even though it was at normal listening levels.

My turn arrived and I pulled up to the window. The little drawer slide out. I leaned out the window to place my paycheck in and just then it registers that from the stereo I'm hearing, "Really? High little guy." In a panic I dropped the check and started reaching for the volume knob as I hear Joe say, "Think I could interest you in a tiny..." My fingers fumbled for the knob and I think the teller is mumbling something to me through the speaker, probably asking if I want cash or deposit. Crap, I hit the knob wrong and it turns clockwise to blast, "but exciting, BLOOOOOOOOOOOOW JOB. Gimme that, gimme that, BLOOOOOOOOOOOOOW JOB." I punched the eject button and the cassette shoots out.

Just cash please.  :blush
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Orbert on March 28, 2017, 10:58:26 AM
Awesome!!   :rollin  :lol :rollin
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on March 28, 2017, 01:50:57 PM
 :lol :lol Great stuff guys! Meeting Mary 'From the bus?' must've been awesome too. Usually when stuff out of a Zappa lyric comes up in a conversation with friends, I finish the quote. Most of the time the stuff doesn't make any sense to outsides. Nowadays the usual response is: 'Zappa?'

Oh and Tofee, not to get ahead of myself, but when I'm finished doing this (or maybe at the halfway point after his death) I'm thinking of adding all write-ups in a document to download. So you won't have to search for the thread. Might need some grammar corrections, but we'll get to that.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: darkshade on March 28, 2017, 02:29:48 PM
"...and here comes the ice pick, in the forehead!"

Joe's Garage, as mentioned earlier in this thread, was not an album I was into in my early Zappa years, but it's one that has grown on me immensely over the years. Act I is perfect Zappa, one of his best albums. Act I has classic songs, great flow, and is one of Frank's funniest albums. The humor never gets old, as with all the great Zappa albums. But most importantly, the music. Jumping from funk, to rock, to blues, to jazz-fusion, to comedy-rock, to avant-garde classical, it's all there. This is basically Frank's "The Wall" in the sense that it has that 'important' feeling when you listen, especially when you know the context of Frank's music; it's like his farewell album as society ushered in the 1980s.

Acts II and III is good but not as good as Act I. As one big album it's great, but flawed, so I tend to treat them as 2 albums (like System of a Down's Mesmerize/Hypnotize albums.) Act II and II feels bloated, there's great stuff there, but bloated. Who said they skip Keep It Greasy? You're insane, that's some of the best playing by a rock/jazz/progressive band I've ever heard, and is even crazier live on the "Buffalo" album. Watermelon in Easter Hay is also on Act III, and I'm surprised by the low key discussion on this one. It is a classic, pretty composition. This is the only Zappa tune I get emotional when listening. It was played at Frank's funeral. It is definitely top 3 Zappa solos for me.

My favorite solo, though, is the On the Bus. Great solo (the original is on the album "One Shot Deal") and a great funky groove underneath.

It was clear that once Frank had aquired the Utility Muffin Research Kitchen,  he just didn't care what the f*ck people thought about his lyrics. He just went all out.
It was like 'hey, so gay sex grosses you out? Here you go! Bam! Keep it Greasy. Dong Work, Sy Borg. 'So Anti-Religion lyrics pisses you off? Here!' Bam! Catholic Girls.  I think he was so pissed off at WB, he enjoyed releasing the HELL out of this.

No doubt about that. Check out the original Lather cover art.
(https://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/616btad16wL.jpg)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Mosh on March 28, 2017, 05:34:49 PM
Speaking of the story, I may be totally out on a limb here, but it's supposed to be cobbled together and stupid. That's the parody. My understanding was that Frank was completely making fun of the entire idea of concept albums. By taking a bunch of unrelated songs and barely stitching them together with the central scrutinizer and conceptual continuity. Yet, he couldn't help himself and still had something to say about oppression, modernity and the beauty of music...which wound up making it the perfect concept album. Until this thread, I've never met a Zappa fan who thought otherwise.
The problem with this is that Frank ended up falling into a lot of the same traps that other bands have fallen into when making concept albums. The storyline loses focus, all the best songs seem piled on to the first disc, etc. Add to that the fact that, yes, there is a serious message in the lyrics, I think he was taking the concept pretty seriously. After all, he helped create the concept album. The first three Mothers albums were concept album, even his live albums sometimes had a theme (see Filmore East).

I too have met folks who love all three acts, the whole dang thang.  That's fine.  I've come to appreciate Acts II & III more over the years, but they're down the list a bit for me.

I can tell you exactly why.  For me, Act II starts off on the wrong foot with not one, but two songs about male gay sex.  Call me a homophobe, but that just grosses me the fuck out.  Don't want to think about it, sure as hell don't want to listen to songs about it.  I always skip "Dong Work" and "Keep It Greasy".  After that, I think there are a bunch of guitar solos, mostly very good, loosely strung together with some kind of narrative, but by then I'm not even paying attention anymore, and then it's over.
This is yet another thing that I find off-putting about a lot of his material from now pretty much until he died. He had a tendency during this time to take a joke and beat it to death until it wasn't funny anymore. It feels like more than half of Acts II & III are based around plooking jokes. I guess it was kinda funny in Cyborg, but 2 or 3 songs later it feels like Frank is repeating himself. Especially since he isn't adding anything new to the topic. Another example of this is on Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life. Awesome live album, but the Jimmy Swaggert stuff is dragged out and not very funny.

Compare this again to Sheik Yerbouti, which is shorter than the entirety of Joe's Garage, yet he has a ton of different topics and doesn't dwell on one thing for too long.

Even Act I is far superior in this regard. Variety of topics and great humor. Yet it is all pieced together coherently.

It was clear that once Frank had aquired the Utility Muffin Research Kitchen,  he just didn't care what the f*ck people thought about his lyrics. He just went all out.
It was like 'hey, so gay sex grosses you out? Here you go! Bam! Keep it Greasy. Dong Work, Sy Borg. 'So Anti-Religion lyrics pisses you off? Here!' Bam! Catholic Girls.  I think he was so pissed off at WB, he enjoyed releasing the HELL out of this.
I got this impression too. Sheik Yerbouti and Joe's Garage are like Zappa unleashed. When people describe Zappa as a master satirist who wasn't afraid to go after anyone, this is the period I'm thinking of. Also the sheer length of these albums and Zappa being able to release Joe's Garage at his own pace.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 29, 2017, 12:38:16 AM
Prime example of overlong concepts and losing focus is off course, 'Thing Fish' which I find almost impossible to listen all the way through.

I think you're right. When Frank found a horse to beat, he'd flog it to death. ('Porn Wars' anyone?) One album I think is an excellent example of the opposite, by which I mean a very diverse and focussed album, would be 'You Are What You Is'. 'Them or Us' to a lesser extent. But let's not get ahead of ourselves...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Podaar on March 29, 2017, 06:59:47 AM
The problem with this is that Frank ended up falling into a lot of the same traps that other bands have fallen into when making concept albums. The storyline loses focus,

No it doesn't.  The focus is just fine for the story being told.

all the best songs seem piled on to the first disc,

No, no they're not. The best songs are all in act III where we get a plethora of melancholy guitar solos.

Add to that the fact that, yes, there is a serious message in the lyrics, I think he was taking the concept pretty seriously. After all, he helped create the concept album. The first three Mothers albums were concept album, even his live albums sometimes had a theme (see Filmore East).

That all seems okay with me. Although, I don't typically like to form an opinion on people's motivations, I'd agree that Frank appeared to take his opinions seriously.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: tofee35 on March 29, 2017, 09:59:35 AM
:lol :lol Great stuff guys! Meeting Mary 'From the bus?' must've been awesome too. Usually when stuff out of a Zappa lyric comes up in a conversation with friends, I finish the quote. Most of the time the stuff doesn't make any sense to outsides. Nowadays the usual response is: 'Zappa?'

Oh and Tofee, not to get ahead of myself, but when I'm finished doing this (or maybe at the halfway point after his death) I'm thinking of adding all write-ups in a document to download. So you won't have to search for the thread. Might need some grammar corrections, but we'll get to that.

I wish I followed up with "...with leather?". That'd be great to have it all in one place. That's so much time dedication to the love of Zappa! Thank you.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: darkshade on March 29, 2017, 07:40:37 PM
Anyone know where Act II ends and Act III begins?

Is it after Outside Now?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Mosh on March 29, 2017, 08:03:46 PM
I assumed side 1 and 2 are act II and 3 and 4 are act III (of the original release).
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Cyclopssss on March 30, 2017, 01:04:47 AM
^^ I've always viewed it as such. Isn't it on the label info? (you know, label as in the cd surface?)  :lol
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #28&29 - 'Joe's Garage - Acts I, II & III'
Post by: Mosh on March 30, 2017, 08:26:31 AM
Just checked my copy, it's on the back of the jacket.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 03, 2017, 06:18:16 AM
Official Release #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
(Released 05/1981)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/Zappa_Tinseltown_Rebellion.jpg)

Background Information:
After Joe’s Garage Zappa pushed onward. He planned to release two albums full of live recordings. After the first one ‘Crush all boxes’ was bootlegged (Zappa played it in its entirety on the radio, but there seemed to be test pressings floating around too), he scrapped both that album and the second album (a three record set called ‘Warts and all’), remixed and rearranged the songs to release them on Tinseltown Rebellion, You Are What You Is and Shut Up & Play Yer Guitar amongst others.
When playing ‘Crush all boxes’ on the radio, Zappa stated that the original title for that album was You Are What You Is, but that he had changed his mind. But more on that later.
After reviewing the mixes and edits, Zappa decided he had a lot of work to do. There are unofficial versions of ‘Crush all boxes’ floating around on the internet, and it’s amazing stuff to check out. For some reason Zappa made a lot of changes to the mix when he turned the album into Tinseltown Rebellion. While Tinseltown sounds dark, dense and busy, ‘Crush all Boxes’ sounds crisp and fresh (and with a different, yet amazing solo on Easy Meat).

The Album Itself:
Tinseltown Rebellion is Zappa’s first 80’s album. A path he had set off on on Sheik Yerbouti, and continued on Joe’s Garage was nearing completion. Zappa’s 80’s band records would remain to be full of sexual themed lyrics, short songs, enormous band, big arrangements and a very busy rhythm section.
There are a couple of old, but immensely reworked tracks on this album, a lot of new songs, a couple of standalone guitar solo’s, and with Panty Rap and Dance Contest two audience participation tracks.
The album is all over the place in terms of style. The reggae bits on Joe’s Garage got their follow-up in Panty Rap and Now You See It - Now You Don’t. There’s fast doo-wop kind of stuff (Love Of My Life), energetic rockers (I Ain’t Got No Heart, and the title track) and the one of a kind thing that The Blue Light is.
In terms of band arrangements there are a lot of people contributing to this album. Ed Mann has a big role on percussion, Tommy Mars on keyboard, and Bob Harris’ incredibly high pitched vocals are featured frequently.
A remarkable thing is the way guitar solo’s are presented on this album. Vinnie Colaiuta and Arthur Barrow and a dynamic duo within band arrangements, but when accompanying a solo they are just as busy. It distracts from the solo, making it more of a xenochronic (but live) piece, where there appear to be at least two solo’s at the same time. There are three big guitar solo’s: the ending of Easy Meat, the solo in Pick Me I’m Clean, and Now You See It - Now You Don’t. Of these three Easy Meat is all over the place, and Now You See It… is the most traditional guitar solo. 
Zappa’s first 80’s record set the tone for the rest of his pop/rock albums in this decade.

Essential Tracks:
Easy Meat
Tell Me You Love Me
Now You See It - Now You Don't
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 04, 2017, 01:22:22 PM
I'm guessing this is a less popular album  :lol

Let me be the first to give his opinion. I've never really liked the album. I don't really like this band, don't really like the setlist, don't really like the compositions. But listening to this album three times in a row sort of opened my eyes. Especially after listening to Crush All Boxes, I've gained respect for this lineup. Crush All Boxes sounds much better, and although I have yet to buy that one, I'm looking forward to listening to the 'actual' live album from 1981. It's just that the album is a weird combination of a certain type of songs. Even older songs sound stylistically identical to others. And since it's quite a long album it gets a boring record. I just get tired of the sound of it. I think it could have been a pretty nifty single album, and could've sounded better. Well, like Crush all Boxes, really.

Having said that, I think it's still in my bottom 10 Zappa albums.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: darkshade on April 04, 2017, 03:08:33 PM
FZ - "What's your name?"

"Butch... [echo]"

"..."

FZ - "Alright, the dynamic... BUTCH!"

I have a soft spot for Tinseltown Rebellion. First off, I'm a big fan of Arthur Barrow so anything he is on is great for me. Vinnie is also great on drums (though I prefer Bozzio because his playing is more raw.) Also to note, this is Steve Vai's debut on a Zappa album, but I've never been a big fan of his playing. Second, this was not an album I checked out in my "first wave" of Zappa listening, I think I bought this album a couple of years after discovering Zappa. It was a time when I "thought" I had heard all the essential Zappa out there, when I wasn't necessarily listening to Frank too much, and was pleasantly surprised to hear new tunes when I bought it, and fun updated versions of some older tunes. I kept this album in my car for a good year or so, back when I used CDs in my car. It was generally the only Frank Zappa album I listened to during this time. At the time, I definitely thought this album was better than it is, and it's not bad or even average (for Frank), and I find it to be one his most fun records to listen to, but it does seem to be one of his least popular albums. Lyrically, this album continues Frank's cynical observations of social life, race, and sex in America.

"No problem"

Even though this is a live album, it starts off with a studio track, Fine Girl, a nice funky reggae-ish tune, nice tom-tom work.
Easy Meat is next. This is a Zappa classic, some great prog rock only Frank could make, if a bit overplayed in the 80s, but it originated during the Flo n' Eddie era, was played here and there throughout the 70s, but this is the tune's debut on a Frank Zappa album. Its mostly live, with lots of overdubs, and edits, and even cuts to some studio insanity (or is it a cut from a live Petite Wazoo segment, I don't remember...) The rest of the album is supposedly live without overdubs and edits (besides segues to the next track)

Maybe you're tired of talking about it, but Lather references are on this album, and For the Young Sophisticate (which was originally on Lather) makes it's official debut on this album instead, with updated early 80s power guitars and heavier drums. A few older Mothers/Zappa doo-wop tunes show up, too, but way more rockin', and with 6 guitarists and 3 keyboardists on stage, the sound is huge. Brown Shoes also pops up towards the end, and is a bit strange for me.

"No problem"

I get a big kick out of the Dance Contest track. IMO it's one of Frank's most hilarious moments on an album, his interaction with audience members was always funny, but he got some real nutballs, likely drunk, on stage for this one.

The Blue Light is the most unique tune on this album, and is a weird mix of soaring chorus, with verses that use a type of sing-speaking (I forget the official term for this) Zappa used this kind of 'singing' on much of his output in the 80s. This song was my favorite for a while when this album was new for me. Tinseltown Rebellion, the song, is cool. It's Frank's take on punk rock, while mocking the scene. Frank actually had a punk-ish tune on Shiek Yer Bouti (Broken Hearts Are For Assholes) but this one is more upbeat and heavier on the keyboard synths, with a little weird jazzy middle section.

I never cared much for Pick Me I'm Clean, even though the solo is good. Bamboozled By Love debuts here as the slow funky version. Later versions saw Frank's band play it at a double time, sped up rocker (as we'll hear later on YCDTOSA vol 4, with some references from a particularly famous 70s prog rock band...) The reworked version of Peaches en Regalia (Peaches III) is cool, and I enjoy it a lot, but it doesn't even touch the original on Hot Rats. Let's hear it for another great Italian... Al Di Meola ladies and gentlemen.

So yea, it's a good album, just not the most essential Zappa album out there. There are lots of jazz-fusion moments spread throughout the album, just not as obvious, which you could say about all of Frank's albums from 79-85. Considering half the album contains brand new songs, and pretty solid versions of some older tunes, it's definitely not an album to skip if you're a Zappa novice; but you might want to check out roughly 20 other Zappa albums or so, before considering this one; unless you absolutely love Joe's Garage and crave more from this era (In that case, check out the posthumous album "Buffalo" as well, it's a hot album recorded during the same time period as Tinseltown Rebellion, I actually like it more than TR.)

"No problem"
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Orbert on April 04, 2017, 03:47:34 PM
The one and only time I saw Frank, it was on the Crush All Boxes tour.  I still have the T-shirt somewhere.

I gotta be honest; I was somewhat disappointed.  Yeah, there's a story.  But it's really long and doesn't really make sense if I shorten it because of all the details that kinduv interrelate.

Should I?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Podaar on April 04, 2017, 03:49:46 PM
 :tup  I'm always down for an Orbert story.

 :corn
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Mosh on April 05, 2017, 12:15:50 AM
Yes to the Orbert story!

I like this album a lot. Maybe not an essential but a good introduction to his later period and actually not a bad one to start out with if you're looking for a more harder edged accessible Zappa. It shows a few different sides to his music and the material spans his entire career.

There are some things that make this album special. First is the songs presented. Unless I'm forgetting something, most of his live albums up until this point were primarily used to showcase new music. Sure there are the obligatory reworkings of old material on pretty much every live album, but I always mostly thought of that as secondary to the new stuff. Here it makes up a pretty big chunk of the album.The variety of the material (combined with the audience participation) makes this feel like a more traditional live album than some of the others. And that's not a bad thing. The way the old songs are reworked is also really cool. The version of Love of My Life on this album is the definitive one. You could make an argument for Brown Shoes Don't Make It, but I still prefer the original. Still, it's an impressive version. Especially considering the original Brown Shoes was assembled in the studio, hearing this band perform it in one take almost perfectly is pretty incredible.
Also I believe two of the guitar solo spots (Now You See It and Pick Me I'm Clean) come from King Kong and Inca Roads.

The new material is really good too. Easy Meat could possibly be the highlight of the album. It's an old tune, as Darkshade said, but I think Frank was smart not to release it until this album. The older versions I've heard show a somewhat unexciting blues rocker that really wasn't album worthy. But by the 80s it became perhaps Frank's proggiest tune. The synth "classical" section is mindblowing. The guitar solo is awesome. The edits are also seamless. The Blue Light is weird but good. One of the oddities of the Zappa catalog that somehow doesn't get the attention it deserves. Tinseltown Rebellion might not be as effective of a parody of punk rock as Broken Hearts Are For Assholes, but I think it is stronger as a song. On that note, I think the quality of the lyrics are a major improvement over Joe's Garage. I guess some of this material predates that, but I'm not sure which song originated when. Either way, it does continue to be more on the cynical side but I don't think the cleverness is totally lost the way some of Joe's Garage was. The humor is also better. Some really funny bits and the audience interaction portions are hilarious.

Then there's the sound. Yes it is a little rough around the edges, but I like that. After his last live album which didn't even sound like a live album (Sheik Yerbouti) it makes sense for him to go in the opposite direction with this. No overdubs (mostly), no frills, just a raw sampling of Frank's new band. I like it. The rhythm section can be a little busy (and I do find that a hinderance on some other recordings), but I'm fine with it here. I like Steve Vai but he seems to take a backseat on this album. What album had him credited for stunt guitar?

I think my only real negative on this album is Fine Girl. It's out of place and it's an annoying song. According to the liner notes, this was included so something from the album could be played on the radio. Not sure if I buy that story, but it is an odd inclusion either way.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Cyclopssss on April 05, 2017, 02:32:19 AM
Come on, Orbert, don't leave us hangin'!  :D

Tinseltown was something of a surprise for me, as it was way better than I expected it to be. I especially love Easy Meat, Ain't got no heart, Love of my life, Pick me I'm clean (those vocal harmonie) and Brown shoes.

This also might be the best live band Frank ever assembled, technically. It's panty sniffing time! "Zeets!'
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Orbert on April 05, 2017, 11:36:36 AM
I was kinda waiting for Nihil-Morari's "blessing" before posting my story, since it's his thread, but at this point I guess I can claim "popular demand".

----------

1980, my first year in college, and I'd been a Zappa/Mothers fan for a few years, having discovered them earlier but really only starting my journey with Sheik Yerbouti.  By this point, my buddy Chris and I had maybe a dozen albums between us.  In addition to Sheik Yerbouti, I know I had the Joe's Garage trilogy, One Size Fits All (had to get that one because it was my actual intro to The Mothers), and the Flo and Eddie classics Fillmore East - June 1971 and Just Another Band from L.A.  I know Chris had Roxy & Elsewhere, and I'm sure we each had a few others.

Scored tickets to see Frank at The Masonic Theater in Royal Oak, Michigan.  Chris was my best bud at the time (and co-star in other concert stories here on DTF), so we prepared for it the way we usually did, which was by listening to as much of the catalog as we could.

As we all know now, Frank's concerts were not "greatest hits" concerts by any means, and sometimes even consisted of all-new material.  At the time, we didn't understand that, and I was hoping to sing along with at least a couple of familiar songs.  I think the only ones I recognized were "Easy Meat" and "I Don't Wanna Get Drafted", which was both reasonably familiar but not really favorites.  Oh well.  Of course the band was tight; everyone who plays with Frank has to be in the top 0.1% of all living musicians.  But so much of Frank's music takes a while to work on you, and there's often a lot that you don't catch until repeated listens.  When you're sitting there digging it for the first time, you can't help but be impressed by the musicianship, but what the hell are they playing?  Can we get some "Nanook" or maybe "I'm the Slime"?  "Dancing Fool"?  Um, no.

The Masonic Theater is an absolutely stunning venue.  Totally old-school style, red velvet and other fancy stuff on the walls, big chandeliers, just gorgeous.  This was the famous tour when they collected panties.  As the show progressed, you'd see panties getting tossed onto the stage.  Fun.  Not exactly hygienic, but what the fuck.

During a jam, some asshole threw a whiskey bottle onto the stage.  With a wave of his hand, the band stopped cold and Frank called for the house lights, which revealed said asshole being grabbed and pounded on by security, and perhaps a few others as well.  They dragged his ass out of there.

Frank took the opportunity to chastise the audience.  He talked about how this is such a beautiful concert hall, but people can't just appreciate that; they have to get all stoned or drunk or whatever, and then act like assholes.  He'd asked for panties, and someone threw a whiskey bottle.  Oh man, he was pissed, and rightfully so.  Eventually he calmed down, the asshole was gone, and he said "Now, as soon as my drummer gets back out here, we can continue" and Vinnie comes running out from back stage.  He's barely sat down when Frank goes "Three! Four!" and bang! they pick up the song, seemingly from right where they left off.  Seriously, it was like he'd pressed the Pause button, then later released it.  Frank's command and control over his ensembles is legendary, and we got to witness it first-hand, although under less-than-positive circumstances.

Another thing that was kinda weird was the solos.  With most bands, the solos grow organically out of the songs.  Usually you play the solo over the same chords as the verse or chorus.  Sometimes, especially in prog, it's a different section completely, but still fits into the composition.  The solos that night weren't really like that.  The band would be jamming in 11/8 or some other crazy time signature, then the lights would change, the music would change, a spotlight would hit Frank, and he'd take his solo.  Basically "The maestro will now take a solo!"  I remember at least one time it was just a generic blues thing -- don't get me wrong, it was a great solo -- but it had nothing to do with the song it was in.  Then after, everything would change back and the song would continue.  This happened more than once.  Just really odd, how the solos didn't seem to have anything to do with the song.  If the song is in 11/8, solo in 11/8, don't give me some generic blues thing.  Any idiot can do that.

As the last chord of the last song was still bouncing around the room, the house lights came up, and the message was clear: "No encores for you!"  This audience did not get/deserve an encore.  The asshole who threw the whiskey bottle had ruined that for all of us.  A lot of people keep applauding and screaming, because that's what you do, but after a while it was obvious that it was in vain.  I wouldn't be surprised if Frank was halfway back to the motel by then.

So I got to see Frank, my absolute hero at the time, but it was not the amazing experience I'd hoped it would be.  It was certainly unique, and I don't know what I expected, but this was not it.  It's impossible not to be impressed by the incredible musicianship.  But I didn't know most of the songs and had trouble digging them, plus the weird way the solos came about, and the whole thing with the whiskey bottle resulting in no encore, left me with a less-than-positive feeling about the whole thing.  That's what I meant when I said I was somewhat disappointed.  This was "later era Frank" when he just didn't give a fuck (if he ever did) and was just playing concerts to raise money to fund his classical projects to come.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Podaar on April 05, 2017, 12:00:54 PM
^ And that's exactly how Tinseltown Rebellion feels to me. Impressive musicianship that leaves me a bit disappointed.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 05, 2017, 12:23:32 PM
I love any story that's actually about Frank, his music, or any of his concerts. There's only a couple of people I know that even know his music, so I love to hear from fellow enthousiasts.
And yeah Orbert, I know exactly what you mean. Somehow his nonchalance was going too far on occasion in the 80's. Especially concerning the audience. I mean, I love the 'Stop it, you'll hurt your throat' on Burnt Weeny, and the dance contest on Roxy, but in this period it feels forced. Zappa didn't want to tour this much it seems.
I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but especially on later tours where Scott Thunes would write the arrangements of the songs, and the number of guitar solo's lessened, it's wasn't so much a Zappa show anymore, more a band playing Zappa's latest tunes.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Orbert on April 05, 2017, 12:47:22 PM
Yeah, Frank was allowing himself to be more of a composer and less of a performing musician as time went on.  Hey, it was totally his call, his life, his career, so I can't blame him for it or anything.  But the result was somewhat unsatisfying for a while, and I happened to catch him during this period.  I think he later learned how to better work within this paradigm.  I'd kinduv moved on by then, but I've seen The Dub Room Special which I know is from a later period, and thought the concert footage looked very entertaining.  The rest of it, not so much, but at least the shows looked fun.  And yeah, we're getting ahead of things, so...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: darkshade on April 05, 2017, 02:00:25 PM
I've come to appreciate the 80s output more as time goes on, even the humor has grown on me. Once you've gobbled up all the 60s and 70s stuff and digested them all, the logical next step is diving into the later Zappa works. You begin to realize the drop in quality is merely relative or minimal, depending on the album, or just non-existent. That's not to say Frank didn't make some questionable decisions on a few albums, but the 1980, 82 and 88 bands were phenomenal. The 80s/90s albums seem like a reward for the more seasoned Zappa fans, as the music became more challenging, more crude, more cynical, and weirder; both with his rock/fusion output, and his classical/electronic/'serious' works.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Orbert on April 05, 2017, 03:20:45 PM
I don't even consider it a drop in quality, merely a change of focus.  Frank has always had a composer in him trying to get out.  In the early days, it had no other vehicle than through a rock ensemble, because nobody was going to offer up an orchestra to an unknown composer, but there were record companies willing to take a chance on a rock band.

Frank did seem to be going through the motions in some ways during this time, and I suppose that that does qualify as a drop in quality.  But taste is always subjective, and while I find most of his 80's output less enjoyable than the 70's stuff, I know that there are people who think it's just as good and possibly better.  Frank had honed his skills more by then, and it showed in many subtle ways, and that is what some people are drawn to.

I agree that digging into more challenging music can be more rewarding.  Unfortunately (for me), this more challenging period just isn't one that I really care for.  It was around this time that my love for Frank and his work started to waver, and I realized that I really did prefer his music in smaller doses.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Cyclopssss on April 06, 2017, 12:26:28 AM
Great story and I think you hit the nail on the head. Having never gotten to see Frank perform live (I missed my opportunity in '88) it must be mindboggling to witness a song being played (and the early '80's songs could go OUT THERE and then hear a solo being played that does not fit the song AT ALL. I mean I remember buying Ship Arriving Too Late (to save a drowning witch) and it took me forever to get into side two, i.e. the title song. I loved Zappa's tight, concise songs, but when he would stretch things, man he would STRETCH!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: Mosh on April 07, 2017, 09:13:22 PM
Cool story, Orbert. Also seems like one of the most typical Zappa stories. From lecturing the audience to not playing "the hits".

I definitely agree that Frank was beginning to move away from Rock music and get more cynical, but I don't think that really shows on this album. There are hints of it going in that direction, but isn't overwhelming. I think this is still one of his most fun and well rounded albums. The "going through the motions" in the 80s was more in his studio work than his live albums anyway IMO.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #30 - 'Tinseltown Rebellion'
Post by: darkshade on April 08, 2017, 09:47:20 AM
Cool story, Orbert. Also seems like one of the most typical Zappa stories. From lecturing the audience to not playing "the hits".

I definitely agree that Frank was beginning to move away from Rock music and get more cynical, but I don't think that really shows on this album. There are hints of it going in that direction, but isn't overwhelming. I think this is still one of his most fun and well rounded albums. The "going through the motions" in the 80s was more in his studio work than his live albums anyway IMO.

IMO the only album that is "going through the motions" is Them or Us, and even that album has some great tunes. Thing-Fish could technically be considered that way too, except the whole concept is outrageous, the dialogue is impressive, even if it's absurd and sometimes annoying, and there's even less great tunes. But we'll get to those albums soon enough...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32, & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play...'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 10, 2017, 03:23:59 AM
Official Release #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar'
(Released 05/1981)

(https://img.discogs.com/3Vq2uwwtLk5jslaMnx9V-phUYWI=/fit-in/600x599/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-395323-1301735178.jpeg.jpg)

Background Information:
Although originally released as three separate albums in may 1981 (titled ‘Shut up ’n play yer guitar’, ‘Shut up ‘n play yer guitar some more’ and ‘Return to the son of shut up ’n play yer guitar’), the three albums combined will be discussed here. Two tracks intended for release on the shelved ‘Warts and All’ live album found their way on to vinyl on this release.
As the title implies this record has no vocals and features guitar solo’s taken out of live performances of complete songs mostly. The ditty’s in between songs stick out. The short bits are studio outtakes intended for release on Läther.

The Album Itself:
While Zappa had always been viewed as a good guitar player, to the world he was mainly the madman, the satirist, the guy with the dirty lyrics or the man with the incredibly diverse music. This record showed he was not only a great guitar player, but an amazing solist. Not a single phrase was copied between solo’s (listen to all three title tracks, three versions of a solo in Inca Roads) or even nights. And even though there’s things on this album that work wonderful and things that do not work that great, above all you hear a musician playing a solo. Improvising, on the spot, feeling the moment, working his way around the notes, really knowing his instrument. Zappa has never been a virtuoso, he wasn’t about being fast, shredding or sweeping. The thing that stands out after listening to this album is how incredibly creative the man was.

Essential Tracks:
five-five-FIVE
Ship Ahoy
Shut Up ‘n Play Yer Guitar Some More
Pink Napkins
Title: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32, & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 10, 2017, 03:25:10 AM
Ignore, quote error
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: ChuckSteak on April 10, 2017, 08:09:33 AM
In this amazing interview he speaks a bit about his favorite guitarists and guitar solos, among other things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eln3J6BxWN0
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Cyclopssss on April 11, 2017, 06:53:46 AM
Sorry, can't comment as I don't own this. And that's a concious decision, as I'm not too fond of guitar-solo-albums.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Mosh on April 11, 2017, 10:26:49 AM
In this amazing interview he speaks a bit about his favorite guitarists and guitar solos, among other things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eln3J6BxWN0
That's one of my favorite interviews of his. He's being a bit difficult with the interviewer but still has some interesting things to say.

I will get to this tomorrow probably.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Mosh on April 11, 2017, 10:35:30 AM
By the way, are we going to talk about The Torture Never Stops video? I think all other FZ videos have a CD counterpart, closest for this would be You Are What You Is I think.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 11, 2017, 10:41:46 AM
I've thought about doing extra's, movies, Beat The Boots, other well known albums (like the Jean Luc Ponty album), maybe after we finish the string of official albums.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Orbert on April 11, 2017, 11:57:46 AM
My buddy Chris (same guy from the Zappa concert story) bought the three-LP set back when the only way to get it was by mail order.  I think it was a small corner ad in Guitar Player magazine.  I thought it sounded kinda dumb, but probably of interest to guitarists.  Chris is a guitarist, and he thinks it's absolutely amazing.

He played some of it for me.  A guitar solo excised from a song, another guitar solo excised from a song, some random sound bites and/or people making noises, a guitar solo which is likely a composed piece, another guitar solo excised from a song, more random sound bites and/or people making noises, etc.  For three LPs.

In listening, both of our opinions were solidified.  I was right; it sounded kinda dumb.  And he was right; it's absolutely amazing.

For me, the issue is similar to the issue I had when seeing Frank play live.  Solos to me are part of the song.  As such, they typically grow organically out of the song, or if they're a contrasting section, a contrasting section in a way that makes musical sense.  Listening to a compilation of solos to me is close to pointless.  Yes, you can still admire the musicianship and the technique and all that.  But these are not composed solo guitar pieces; these are parts of songs, specifically the guitar solo, cut out of the song and offered without context.

I can see why some would find this fascinating.  For me, it's nearly pointless.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Cyclopssss on April 11, 2017, 12:16:15 PM
Exactly. He could have released a ton of FANTASTIC live albums of all the material he recorded on the road (as he would later do with YCDTOSA) and STILL highlight his guitarwork within the frame of the recorded songs. I just didn't get this. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Mosh on April 11, 2017, 11:00:00 PM
I'll comment more tomorrow after relistening to this, but I like the guitar albums. I have all of them. But I can see how they wouldn't work for a lot of people. For one thing, Frank was extremely limited technically. He didn't play changes, he never soloed over much more than blues vamps. He also tended to stick with a few of the same modes.

Then there's the more philosophical issue of the purpose of a guitar solo, which is what Orbert has been alluding to. I tend to agree that the solo should service the song, but by now I've realized that some players aren't about that and guitar playing for the sake of guitar playing can be OK too if I'm in the right mood. There are a lot of FZ solos that really complement the song (Yo Mama, Inca Roads on OSFA, and Watermelon In Easter Hay to name a few), but for the most part he wasn't really about that. But you get a lot of that in Jazz too and I love Jazz so it works for me.

All that being said, for what he lacked in technicality he excelled when it came to rhythmic ideas and coming up with a unique solo. He also improved a ton as a player in the late 70s and 80s.

Given the fact that he did tend to solo over simple vamps that were often disconnected from the rest of the song to begin with, the idea of an album like this actually works. Not sure what the source of every solo on this album is, but I know there are at least 3 versions of Inca Roads. Great song but I don't necessarily need 3 different versions of it. 3 different guitar solos from those songs is enticing though. If there isn't anything special about the rest of that particular performance, it makes sense to cut to the chase, so to speak.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Orbert on April 12, 2017, 07:12:02 AM
I can see that.  Another one of my favorite guitar players is Terry Kath, the original guitarist for Chicago.  On their live album Chicago at Carnegie Hall, there are plenty of guitar solos of course, but two major showcases are the extended ones in "Sing a Mean Tune, Kid" and "South California Purples".  The solos are a good five or 10 minutes each (I've never timed them, but they're loooong), one growing out of the progression and the other starting from a dead stop, so pretty much the opposite setups.  When they released the Extended version on CD, they included alternate versions of these songs, and the solos are completely different, and I realized that this happened every night.  They played the whole week at Carnegie Hall, but they played nearly 300 shows a year back then, with Terry just pulling amazing solos out of his... head, every night, several times a night.  Suddenly I understood the Deadheads collecting every bootleg that they can get their hands on.  It wasn't just the same songs over and over, they really were different every time, especially the jams.

Anyway, I guess if the songs themselves tend to be more structured, but the solo is different every time and all you want to hear is the solo and what he did differently each time, then that's cool.  Here they are, the guitar solos.  For actual listening, though, I guess I still need the framework of the song.  If I like the song, I'll sit and listen to the whole song each time just to hear a great solo.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 12, 2017, 09:05:31 AM
I actually like the fact that it's not really clear of what songs the solo's are. Like Mosh said, if they were over te same changes as the verse or chorus, I would be less interested. Improvs on here are actually improvs, stopping everything, and starting to solo. I actually really like looking for clues as of what songs they were cut from, but mainly just focussing on what Frank was trying to say. Where he was heading, scales and rhythmic figures he was trying to use.
Again if all the solo's were just over the chords of the verse of the song the solo was in (and then one or two rounds) I couldn't care less. These are little compositions in their own right.
I do however understand that this is not for everyone. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Mosh on April 15, 2017, 11:06:06 AM
Well I finally got to listen to this last night, although I fell asleep through some of it. FZ guitar solos are not recommended for napping!  :tdwn

Anyway now I can talk about this album more specifically, rather than just broad comments of his guitar albums. As I mentioned, I have all 3, but this is actually the one I'm least familiar with. Guitar is my favorite of the three, and after listening to SUAPYG I can easily say it's because of the rhythm section, particularly Chad Wackerman instead of Vinnie Colaiuta. I like Vinnie but his playing can be really busy. I'm sure drummers love this album, and I can appreciate what he's doing on a technical level, but I often find myself paying full attention to what he's doing and totally forgetting that there's a guitar solo happening. FZ likes this precise level of interaction, but to me it sounds like the instruments are clashing, not complementing each other. That's not to say it never works. In fact when the guitar bass and drums do lock in, it's one of the coolest things ever and I can see why Vinnie was one of FZ's favorite drummers. But throughout a lot of this album I find it too distracting.

That aside, I still really enjoy SUAPYG. As I mentioned earlier, I think Zappa really started to hit his stride in the late 70s and basically through the 80s. He started to become a good player about halfway into the original Mothers, but I really dig his tone and style later on. Also fun to try and figure out which tunes the solos came from. Sometimes it's obvious (all versions of Inca Roads are pretty obvious), other times it's more ambiguous. I think some of these solos hold up pretty well as tunes on their own. Five Five FIVE, and the trance-like Treacherous Cretins feel like composed songs. Then there's the track length. I think this says a lot about Zappa's artistry. Sometimes his solos could be dragged out too much, but I think this compilation shows that generally he knew when to end a solo. Some of these are very short, some are insanely long, but most feel like they're the right length.

Also want to point out the final tune, Canard Du Jour. A mellower, stripped down piece that is very much unlike the rest of the album. Never really noticed it before but it's worth revisiting IMO.

The current 2 CD format of this album really doesn't do it any favors. It was originally released as 3 separate records and is more palatable that way IMO. I tried listening to Return Of the Son... by itself and was surprised at how much more accessible it was. Usually I'm pretty burnt out by the time I get to those songs, but I guess it wasn't originally meant to be listened to that way. They're also short, all in the 30 minute range. A palatable length for something like this.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Orbert on April 15, 2017, 11:40:58 AM
I need to listen to this collection again.  It's been a while, and I do like Frank's guitar playing.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: darkshade on April 16, 2017, 06:47:34 AM
I also try to listen to this as 3 separate releases. They're all around 35 minutes long or so, making them easier to digest, and listening to all 3 in one sitting is just too much (which is why I have trouble listening to "Guitar" because they're both two long discs of solos, and I prefer Trance-Fusion over Guitar because T-R is only one disc (and has more variety in sound.))

Anyway, the first Shut Up... album is the best one, the other two are also very good (and have very long album titles); again, better listened to on their own, otherwise your mind is tired from the first one. If you don't care for mostly improv music, you're probably not going to enjoy any of Zappa's guitar albums, as there is little composed music throughout. Zappa's bands were so tight, however, that he and his band could "compose" right on the spot, and make it sound so.

Five-Five-Five is one of the most bad-ass opening tracks to a Zappa album, by the way... Seriously, the first Shut Up... album alone is worth getting the whole set.

Even though this is a guitar album, drummers and bassists can equally get down on Shut Up... Even some great keys work. Lots of great work from Vinnie and Arthur. I agree, sometimes Vinnie was a little too busy, I wish there was a guitar album with the rhythm section of Bozzio/O'Hearn, that would be awesome.

A few of these tracks became actual tunes played live (Treacherous Cretins, Heavy Duty Judy, for example) and the very last song, Canard Du Jour, features extended violin playing by the great Jean-Luc Ponty, making his first appearance on a Zappa album since 1973's Over-nite Sensation. Overall, there isn't much point in describing each track, there are many different flavors. I like listening to these albums once in a while, when I want instrumental Zappa, but not necessarily his big band jazz-fusion albums. Having the little Lather "interruptions" helps keep track of when one tune ends and another begins, which is missing on the later "Guitar" and "Trance-Fusion" albums, and adds more to Zappa's 'conceptual continuity'. Interestingly enough, not all of those Lather studio ditties are actually on Lather, if I remember correctly.

As I said, the original album is the best one IMO, but it comes in a 2 disc box now (there once was a 3 disc version years back, I believe), with improved sound on the 2012 UMe release. The release splits Shut Up N Play yer Guitar Some More in half, so I agree with whoever said it does the album no favors. Best to split them up in 3 on iTunes or whatever media player you use, as they were originally released.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Mosh on April 16, 2017, 04:31:34 PM
With Guitar I just listen to one of the two CDs. I rarely play it all together. Obviously you can do that with SUAPYG too, but having Vol 2 split between the two CDs makes it feel off.

+1 on a guitar album with Bozzio and O'Hearn. Quite possibly my favorite Zappa rhythm section.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: darkshade on April 16, 2017, 05:11:13 PM
With Guitar I just listen to one of the two CDs. I rarely play it all together. Obviously you can do that with SUAPYG too, but having Vol 2 split between the two CDs makes it feel off.

+1 on a guitar album with Bozzio and O'Hearn. Quite possibly my favorite Zappa rhythm section.

There's a few cuts on SUNPYG with that rhythm section, but it's more focused on Vinnie Colaiuta/Arthur Barrow. The later guitar albums focus mostly on the 80s lineups with Chad Wackerman and Scott Tunes, or Barrow.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Mosh on April 16, 2017, 05:12:48 PM
I missed them on SUNPYG, will have to go back and check the liner notes later. Maybe those were some of the cuts I liked more.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 17, 2017, 01:26:50 AM
Ship Ahoy and Pink Napkins are the ones with Bozzio, where Ship Ahoy features Roy Estrada on bass, and Pink Napkins O'Hearn. During the writing of the review I never checked that, it's funny that those two tracks are on my Essential Tracks list.
I never really liked the busy drumming-style of Colaiuta during solo's, as I said regarding Tinseltown. Like Mosh said I too tend to listen to the drums only, and forget there's a guitar solo happening. During songs Vinnie is great, he can play damn near everything, but it seems to get in his way during solo-spots by other band members.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #31, #32 & #33 - 'Shut Up 'n Play Yer...'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 25, 2017, 06:04:27 AM
You Are What You Is coming today or tomorrow!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #34 - 'You Are What You Is'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 25, 2017, 08:26:05 AM
Official Release #34 - 'You Are What You Is'
(Released 09/1981)

(https://images.genius.com/3bd67862d02c2478e4115967199a37fe.1000x960x1.png)

Background Information:
Most of You Are What You Is was material that was intended for release on Warts & All or Crush All Boxes. Apparently the original title for Crush All Boxes was You Are What You Is, which would explain the age of the material. Most of the songs were played on tour in early 1980 (March - July), while the earlier released albums Shut Up… and Tinseltown contained material from the fall tour of 1980. That’s why on You Are What You Is both Steve Vai (on ‘strat abuse’) and Bob Harris’ (on ‘boy soprano and trumpet’) roles are small overdubs: they were only added to the band in the summer of 1980.

The Album Itself:
Twenty tracks of full on satirical, tightly written, accessible rock tunes.
Topics are fat women, drug abuse, the Lord Himself, the draft, beauty etc. etc. If you are easily offended, Zappa would find a way to get you there.
Most of the tracks segue, which is especially nicely done on side 2 (the ‘beauty-suite’, no official title).
The album sounds really good. It’s one of the few (relatively speaking) studio albums that Zappa has recorded. The tracks sound really crisp, the ton of overdubs still doesn’t make it as dense as Tinseltown Rebellion.
In terms of songwriting, this album is stands out as being really about classic song structures. Not that verses and chorusses are hard to find in Zappa’s oeuvre, but it is apparent that these tracks have that thing in common. (The instrumental piece in Jumbo Go Away deserves a mention though)
The only ugly duckling is ‘Theme From The 3rd Movement of Sinister Footwear’. That track is a guitar solo that Frank played in New York at the Palladium, in 1978, doubled by guitar, clarinet and percussion. The guitar solo became a theme, the theme became the main theme of a movement. And the movement became one of three movements of Sinister Footwear. A 26 minute classical piece with a puppet-ballet (dancers inside costumes, think ‘big bird’) which has never been released officially.

Essential Tracks:
Teen-Age Wind
Society Pages
I’m A Beautiful Guy
Beauty Knows No Pain
You Are What You Is
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #34 - 'You Are What You Is'
Post by: Cyclopssss on April 25, 2017, 09:47:29 AM
Beautiful, beautiful album. From the scathing satire of 'Teenage Wind' to Jimmy Carl Black's Southern drawl in 'Harder then your husband', to the increddibly dense 'Society Pages' through 'Any Downers' medley and 'Dumb All Over', to the lovely gospel pastische of 'Heavenly Bank Account' and 'The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing' and the title song ! What great songwriting, what increddible talented musicianship. From the super corny 'Coneheads' to 'Drafted Again'  and 'Dumbo go away'. This album has it all. The vocal harmonies are out of this world ('Doreen)', the guitar playing and drumming is otherworldly. This is (next to Sheik Yerboutti) THE ultimate Zappa album for me.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #34 - 'You Are What You Is'
Post by: Orbert on April 25, 2017, 10:16:59 AM
As with many bands and artists, my relationship with Frank and/or The Mothers has gone through up times and down times.  After Joe's Garage, Frank and I went our separate ways for a while, and the 80's were a particularly crazy time for me anyway.  There are parts of the 80's that I just plain don't remember.

Anyway, one day I turned on MTV and there was the video for "You Are What You Is", the song.  I thought it was fun.  I also specifically remembered an interview with Frank wherein he spoke against music videos because it would lead to music which "looks good" versus music that sounds good, so either he was being a hypocrite or he eventually embraced the medium because he more or less had to to stay relevant.  Or perhaps, like so many other things, he thought it would be interesting to try, and who cares what he'd said before?

Never got the album, though.  My buddy Chris did, and I think I listened to it at his house once, but as I said, I'd kinda moved on by then.  Early 80's I was getting deep, deep into the prog.  U.K., Gentle Giant, Gong, Hatfield and the North.  I remember seeing the video and thinking Frank's still funny, still doing his thing, okay, but that was about it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #34 - 'You Are What You Is'
Post by: Mosh on April 25, 2017, 04:11:36 PM
Now we're in uncharted waters for me. I've hardly spent much time with 80s Zappa and You Are What You Is is the first album so far that I've never listened to before. Will get to it either today or tomorrow, but so far it looks like a similar sort of structure as Them Or Us (which I have heard). My expectations are somewhat low, but we'll see what happens.

Anyway, one day I turned on MTV and there was the video for "You Are What You Is", the song.  I thought it was fun.  I also specifically remembered an interview with Frank wherein he spoke against music videos because it would lead to music which "looks good" versus music that sounds good, so either he was being a hypocrite or he eventually embraced the medium because he more or less had to to stay relevant.  Or perhaps, like so many other things, he thought it would be interesting to try, and who cares what he'd said before?

FZ's relationship with MTV always seemed interesting to me because while he spoke out against music videos he was really one of the first to embrace the medium in a musical way. I think his problem was more that the music videos often had nothing to do with the music, which devalued the music some. Also, I think Zappa was always open to new technology, but he always did things his way. Never paid much attention to his videos so I don't know how much that applies here, but the claymation stuff in the 70s was innovative at least.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #34 - 'You Are What You Is'
Post by: Orbert on April 25, 2017, 05:39:46 PM
I remember Frank's comment about music videos leading to music that "looks good" rather than "sounds good" because I happened to agree with it 100%.  When all you had was radio, you heard 100 different songs a day and often had no idea what the artists looked like unless you saw them on TV or maybe in one of those music magazines.  Or of course if you bought the album, but you couldn't buy every album that came out.  The point is that music is an audio art form, and it therefore (IMO) should be evaluated strictly on how it sounds, not what the performers look like.

With the advent of music video, it seemed completely possible, and actually quite likely, that we'd get singers who can't sing worth a damn but look great, and bands who kinda suck but have awesome stage shows, and all that.  Bands or singers who are ugly can just have a music video which tells a story and you never have to see them.  And in every case, people will watch the videos over and over, during which time the song worms its way into your brain, and pretty soon you're going around humming the tune, and then the next time you're at the record store, Hey, there it is!

And of course that's exactly what happened.  Frank often referred to himself and an ugly person, weird, etc., and I can see how his reaction at first would be to despise a medium that seemed to emphasize what the music "looks like".  But he was an artist first, and artists gotta make the art, so he did videos.

I forgot about the claymation stuff.  I saw some on The Dub Room Special DVD, and thought it was all pretty weird shit, but it did its job.  It gave you something interesting to look at while you listen to the music.  I don't remember much about the "You Are What You Is" video except that it just seemed like the band lip-synching to the song and goofing around while the cameras rolled.  There may have been more to it than that, but I don't remember.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #34 - 'You Are What You Is'
Post by: Mosh on April 25, 2017, 06:11:08 PM
I just watched it, looks like it's at least somewhat related to the lyrics. But it does seem more like he saw videos as a necessary evil and put together something with low effort.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #34 - 'You Are What You Is'
Post by: Mosh on April 25, 2017, 09:56:29 PM
Well this actually wasn't too bad. I liked the way the songs all seemed to be connected in some way or another, at least from side to side. There were some genuinely good tunes on here. I actually found myself thinking of early Mothers material, which was largely satirical takes on pop music. JCB's presence definitely pushed that comparison for me. Unfortunately, the album also lacks the quirky bizarre sound of albums like Freak Out. There's a blandness to much of Frank's 80s work. Everything sounds crystal clear and clean. It's almost too clean.

My favorite Zappa albums are the ones that give you a wide variety of music. YAWYI feels too one dimensional to me. There aren't very many guitar solos and most of the songs follow a similar structure. The lyrics continue the decline that started (IMO) with Joe's Garage. Tinseltown Rebellion worked for me because there was a sampling of just about everything.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #34 - 'You Are What You Is'
Post by: Cyclopssss on April 26, 2017, 01:50:19 AM
Frank's relationship with MTV was ambiguous, to say the least. He scoffed about it, then performed about a half hour live material which MTV aired, pretty much uncensored. There's something about it in the liner notes of YCDTOSA vol. I, I believe. I think he viewed it and 'music video's' as a form of media, and Frank LOVED using the media.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #34 - 'You Are What You Is'
Post by: darkshade on April 28, 2017, 02:06:48 PM
You Are What You Is. The interesting thing about this album is some see it as the last great studio Zappa album, but it's also the continuation of the post-Joe's Garage 'sound'; a series of rock/pop albums with mild dashes of jazz-fusion or 20th Century classical mixed in. They all kind of have a similar vibe to each other, as has been mentioned before (imo SYB and JG have enough personality of their own, but I understand if you group them in with the early-mid 80s albums.) This is the only album with drummer David Logeman, replacing Vinnie Colaiuta, but otherwise just about all the usual suspects on most of Zappa's 80s rock albums are here, including Steve Vai, Arthur Barrow, Ike Willis, etc...

This album was an album I did not get into for a long time, but eventually I did. As I said earlier, much of the 80s/90s Zappa is for more experienced Zappa fans, and most of it is not as accessible or popular as the 60s and 70s albums. You Are What You Is gets a bad rap by association and because it was released in the 80s, but I think it's one of his most underrated albums, you kinda get everything in this album, it's funny, it's got sociopolitical commentary, it's got dead serious prog/classical/jazz-fusion, great guitar solos, minimalist passages, metal shredding, all insanely wrapped up in this very upbeat, energetic album by Frank. The 'N-word' is even dropped on this album.

I like the flashes of Country in Harder Than Your Husband, and the sneaky prog on the opener. The Beautiful Guy suite is fantastic, an underrated piece. Prog, jazz, Zappa craziness throughout. I love the segue into Conehead, which is a funky tune, and live versions from the 70s are really funky. The title track is great, if a bit repetitive. There's some cool little syncopated moments though, and features a great Zappa guitar solo with dat funky bass line. You could say Frank is dipping his toes into hip-hop in Dumb All Over (and wouldn't be the last time), in only a way Frank could. I always get a kick out of the "At the House of Representatives" line during Heavenly Bank Account. Suicide Chump is very controversial lyrics, but on top of great blues rock. One of Frank's strengths was always blues and R&B. I prefer the 1980 funky single version of "Drafted Again" which was released under the title "I Don't Want To Get Drafted", which can be found on The Lose Episodes, which we haven't gotten to yet in this thread. The version here is funny though.

There's a lot of music here, and though you could call this a "stripped down" kind of a, sort of a commercial album by Frank Zappa, it's still more crazy and complex than 99.99% of commercial/pop music out there. Zappa was moving in a direction that some don't like, or only like some things. Personally, I think he was still at the peak of making rock albums, as he had been making since Zoot Allures, and doesn't start slipping until a The Man From Utopia, a few albums later. However, I think a lot of people are turned off by the lyrics and vocals of this era of Zappa's work, and I mean, I get it. But I appreciate the 80s stuff more as I get more experienced with Zappa's music. There's gold throughout the decade, and repeat listens really do reveal their beauty.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #34 - 'You Are What You Is'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on April 28, 2017, 02:17:59 PM
I must say that especially this record (but a couple ones that are coming soon) have been surprising me. I've always thought there was nothing interesting in them. But of course with Zappa there is. I'm starting to look forward to listening to the last couple of Zappa albums that I've never really dived into. Next one will be on here soon!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #34 - 'You Are What You Is'
Post by: Mosh on April 28, 2017, 09:22:26 PM
Some stuff did stick out to me. Doreen is a great track with a ridiculously long outro. The tune itself is interesting, it's a basic I IV V progression but the vocal melody is playing with the harmony. Also Ray White (?) slays on his vocal performance.

I'm surprised at how much I like Harder Than Your Husband. How awesome is it that he got JCB for that tune? Love his vocal there (and his backing vocals on other tunes). What's the story on that btw? I know former band members were always making the odd guest appearances this one in particular is especially unexpected.

The religious suite is a little too heavy handed on the lyrics and Meek Shall Inherit Nothing isn't quite as effective as Harder Than Your Husband, but hearing Frank's take on gospel with Heavenly Bank Account is entertaining. That's a cool tune.

OK maybe the album is growing on me. Looking back on it there was a lot of stuff I really liked. Going to try and play it one more time before we move on.

Most of my familiarity with You Are What You Is actually comes from the Torture Never Stops DVD. I didn't realize this until today (which is why I didn't mention it before) after watching the DVD again. There's a ton of material from this album and it's mostly played in the same order as on the album. I don't think I've ever heard Frank do a performance with a setlist so faithful to a studio album before.

Anyway, it's cool seeing all the positive comments on this album. I'm going into his 80s albums optimistic, already finding some gems. There is one album coming that I'm really fond of, but more on that later.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To...'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 01, 2017, 04:53:35 AM
Official Release #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch'
(Released 05/1982)

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3RQt_vObG-8/maxresdefault.jpg)

Background Information:
After You Are What You Is, Zappa planned to release a double live album called Chalk Pie, but the label wanted shorter albums instead of long multi-record sets. (Does this sound familiar?) The songs on Chalk Pie have almost all been released (about 5 or 6 tracks were either not released or are not recognisable due to the amount of overdubs on later releases). The first side of Chalk Pie became side two of ‘Drowning Witch’. The first side of ‘Drowning Witch’ are three studio recordings featuring ex-members Bob Harris, Roy Estrada and a couple of old bass players (Arthur Barrow and Patrick O’Hearn), while you can hear the 81/82 band on side two.

The Album Itself:
The studio bit (side one, or the first three tracks) of this album consists of three upbeat songs. All three tracks focus on vocals, on No Not Now Bob Harris’ ‘boy soprano’ shines, on Valley Girl Zappa’s daughter Moon Unit mockingly improvised the language she heard around her, and I Come From Nowhere features weird processed vocals. When asked what the track is about, Zappa responded: ‘It's, well, I think that people who smile too much are … dangerous, and that's a song about people who smile too much.’
Side two is totally different. It’s recorded live (with overdubs), the tracks Drowning Witch and Envelopes are mostly well composed instrumental tracks, with insane instrumental bits. How insane? “Do you know how many edits there are in "Drowning witch"? Fifteen! That song is a basic track from 15 different cities. And some of the edits are like two bars long.”
The liner notes, written by Zappa himself, are in the form of a hilarious Marketing Overview, with quotes like: “There’s only 6 songs on the album, and you probably won’t enjoy any of them”, “The release of a single would seem to be a waste of money… and that’s all we really care about (it’s the thing that sort of sets us apart from the Communists)” or “Because they do not follow the same demographics as Loverboy and Van Halen, expect no support on the West Coast”.
Another thing that’s apparent, is that it’s a short album. It’s Zappa third shortest album after Apostrophe and Orchestral Favorites. A possible explanation is the trouble with the record label wanting a shorter album, while Zappa wanted to re-use that material for future albums.

Essential Tracks:
Valley Girl
Drowning Witch
Envelopes
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save...'
Post by: darkshade on May 01, 2017, 06:29:17 AM
I've always had a sweet spot for Ship Arriving Too Late Too Save A Drowning Witch. It was one of the few 80s albums I liked in my early Zappa listening days. It's the closest Zappa came to making a metal/hardcore punk album. Check out some of the riffs throughout the albums. This is the first appearance of Chad Wackerman drums and Scott Thunes on bass, who would be the main rhythm section for the rest of the 80 live bands, and appear on much of the rest of the 80s albums. Wackerman handles all the drums here, replacing David Logeman, while Thunes appears on Valley Girl and the last 3 tracks. This is the first year (1982) that there was only one Zappa release since 1976 (though '77 and '80 saw no FZ releases.)

Arthur Barrow returns again on the opener and it's a bit of a repetitive number, but Barrow plays some sweet slap bass. Valley Girl is definitely weird, but heavy riffs abound. It's definitely a strange first track to appear on for and Thunes. I don't put this song on by itself, but it usually makes me chuckle when I'm going through the whole album. Next up is I Come From Nowhere, which is a cool track that might scare you off at first on first listen because of the vocals. But there is some serious riffage going on, and Zappa busts out a pretty cool solo later on, and there is a Big Swifty tease during the solo as well. Patrick O'Hearn returns for some nice bass work.

Side Two starts with the 'title' track, Drowning Witch, which I feel is Zappa's best composition from the 80s. It's hilarious, has classic Zappa 'eyebrows', even sardines in those eyebrows. And smelling very bad. But in all seriousness, this was one of the hardest Zappa compositions to nail live, and this 'studio' version is cut from 15 different edits from other shows. The instrumental section before the guitar solos is one of the most maddening, and thrilling, sections of Zappa music. The first solo is by Steve Vai I believe (I could be wrong). The second one is Frank, which is preceded by another short instrumental composed section. Envelopes follows, which is one of Zappa's classical compositions played by rock band, and this song dates back to at least 1978. It's a very technical number. The last song is Teenage Prostitute, and if this isn't the blueprint for many System of a Down songs, I don't know what is (Serj Tankien is a known Zappa fan, even looks like him sometimes.)

Like I said, I like this album, some may not, but it's pretty short as previously mentioned, I've listened to single songs that were longer.

About Chalk Pie, the only track that didn't make it to any albums is Clowns On Velvet, which features " another great Italian, Al Di Meola ladies and gentlemen." I'm pretty sure the other ones with unfamiliar titles are on "Guitar" under different titles. Also, the album would have only been an hour and 10 minutes long, which is basically standard length for a CD (SATLTSADW was right before CDs I think) Chalk Pie is available for free on the Zappateers web site. It's a neat listen, and all the tracks have different mixes compared to their officially released versions.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save...'
Post by: Orbert on May 01, 2017, 09:40:14 AM
Argh, I'm falling behind on this discography, too!

"Valley Girl" was fun and silly.  I remember hearing it on the radio and thinking it was fun and silly, and was glad that Frank was getting airplay and therefore hopefully making some money.  He didn't actively seek either of these things, but the money part would at least help him out, and I always liked the idea of musicians I like actually achieving some kind of commercial success, whether they liked it or not.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save...'
Post by: Podaar on May 01, 2017, 11:03:47 AM
I didn't originally like You Are What You Is, but I can listen to it and enjoy it now...although, it is more than just a bit mean spirited so the satire doesn't appeal to me as much as earlier works.

Other than Valley Girl (which I don't hate), I love Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch. Drowning Witch, the song, is the ultimate 80's FZ tune. I could easily listen to it on a continuous loop. Indefinitely.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save...'
Post by: Cyclopssss on May 01, 2017, 01:51:00 PM
I remember seeing this one in the record store back in the day, say, late eighties/early nineties. I didn't know what to make of it because the artwork was so simplistic, which is something I wasn't used of Zappa at all. Also, didn't know any of the songs. When I bought it and put it on at home, needless to say, my mind was blown yet again. I remember laughing really hard out loud at Valley girl and the lyrics to I come from nowhere. The title song was classic live eighties Zappa and had me laughing as well, as did Teenage Prostitute. Great album, a bit of everything really.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save...'
Post by: Orbert on May 01, 2017, 04:11:20 PM
The cover art is from an old, old joke.  It's one of those things where they give you simple line drawings and you're supposed to figure out what it is, and it's never obvious, but once you know the "correct answer" then you can see it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save...'
Post by: darkshade on May 02, 2017, 04:54:06 PM
Valley Girl was Zappa's biggest hit, Frank discusses it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIQpAEKkk5E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIQpAEKkk5E)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save...'
Post by: Orbert on May 02, 2017, 05:28:32 PM
Apparently, the name of the song is "Valley Girls".  He says so in the clip.  Many times.  (And is wrong every time)
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save...'
Post by: Mosh on May 02, 2017, 11:47:58 PM
Another album I haven't heard before, although I'm familiar with Valley Girl.

The cover art is from an old, old joke.  It's one of those things where they give you simple line drawings and you're supposed to figure out what it is, and it's never obvious, but once you know the "correct answer" then you can see it.
 
I like the cover. It's minimalist but also very 80s, but pleasing to look at either way. I also like how the two figures look like the letters 'Z a'.

After You Are What You Is, Zappa planned to release a double live album called Chalk Pie, but the label wanted shorter albums instead of long multi-record sets. (Does this sound familiar?) The songs on Chalk Pie have almost all been released (about 5 or 6 tracks were either not released or are not recognisable due to the amount of overdubs on later releases). The first side of Chalk Pie became side two of ‘Drowning Witch’. The first side of ‘Drowning Witch’ are three studio recordings featuring ex-members Bob Harris, Roy Estrada and a couple of old bass players (Arthur Barrow and Patrick O’Hearn), while you can hear the 81/82 band on side two.
I thought Zappa was working pretty much independently at this point? What label was he having troubles with? Never heard of this Chalk Pie thing before so I'm curious if there's more story there.

I actually liked this album quite a bit. This is the first single disc LP since Orchestral Favorites. First since Zoot Allures if we don't count the unauthorized Lather albums. I actually thought it was a nice relief to go back to the shorter album format. Long albums are fun but they can be exhausting to listen to. This album was packed with content. It hits hard and doesn't overstay its welcome.

Love the studio/live album hybrid format. Side 1 is a lot of fun. Valley Girl seems to be a tune that the hardcore Zappa fans turn their noses up at but I like it a lot. Moon's improv is hilarious. The music is pretty pedestrian but it's not too bad. I can imagine maybe getting tired of this being played on the radio all the time in the 80s, but I wasn't there and I rarely listen to this song so that doesn't make much of a difference to me.

The other two tunes are cool. No Not Now is a little repetitive but I really dig the guitar tone. It's a fun track. I Come From Nowhere was love at first listen. I can see how the vocals might be off-putting but I thought they were perfect. I was already sold on the song but then Zappa comes in and totally rips one of the best solos I've heard from him. After hearing countless FZ guitar solos by now, it's pretty insane that he can still blow my mind. I'm assuming this is xenochrony at work? If so this is the best use of xenochrony since Inca Roads. He's really mastered it by now.

Side 2: I heard about Drowning Witch being one of his most insane pieces, I still was not prepared for what came. It has a little bit of everything. The opening vocal parts remind me of The Blue Light. The instrumental is just nuts. It's extremely complicated but also really exciting. It actually reminded me of The Dance of Eternity. The way all the parts are very carefully pieced together yet it also goes all over the place. Like organized chaos. Amazing tune, the whole album is worth that for the title track alone.

The last two pieces are cool but I am still recovering from Drowning Witch so I haven't fully digested them yet. Envelopes is an interesting tune, Teen-Age Prostitute is OK.


Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save...'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 03, 2017, 12:56:32 AM
Yeah, you're right about the label. He was working independently.

Upon rereading (https://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/weirdo/unreleased.html#chalkpie (https://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/weirdo/unreleased.html#chalkpie)) it says 'they' wanted something shorter. Possibly he had a financial man, or it could've been a demand of the distributor. Maybe Zappa could see why another double album wouldn't work, so that it wasn't like he couldn't bring out another double album, but someone advised him not to.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save...'
Post by: Podaar on May 03, 2017, 06:13:42 AM
The cover art is from an old, old joke.  It's one of those things where they give you simple line drawings and you're supposed to figure out what it is, and it's never obvious, but once you know the "correct answer" then you can see it.
 
I like the cover. It's minimalist but also very 80s, but pleasing to look at either way. I also like how the two figures look like the letters 'Z a'.


...and a 'p' lying sideways. ^     That way you have all the letters to Zappa.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save...'
Post by: Orbert on May 03, 2017, 10:06:46 AM
Another album I haven't heard before, although I'm familiar with Valley Girl.

The cover art is from an old, old joke.  It's one of those things where they give you simple line drawings and you're supposed to figure out what it is, and it's never obvious, but once you know the "correct answer" then you can see it.
 
I like the cover. It's minimalist but also very 80s, but pleasing to look at either way. I also like how the two figures look like the letters 'Z a'.

I didn't see the "Za" until much later, because I was already familiar with the joke, but I see now that it's there and intentional, reinforced by the way "Zappa" is written above it.  The triangle is definitely meant to evoke the letter "a".
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #35 - 'Ship Arriving Too Late To Save...'
Post by: Mosh on May 03, 2017, 10:03:37 PM
Yeah, you're right about the label. He was working independently.

Upon rereading (https://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/weirdo/unreleased.html#chalkpie (https://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/weirdo/unreleased.html#chalkpie)) it says 'they' wanted something shorter. Possibly he had a financial man, or it could've been a demand of the distributor. Maybe Zappa could see why another double album wouldn't work, so that it wasn't like he couldn't bring out another double album, but someone advised him not to.
Makes sense. No matter what he said about not caring if people listened to his music or not, he was a business minded guy who knew that he needed to sell records. Could've also been a sense of a missed opportunity with You Are What You Is, being some of his most accessible material (and an MTV video) but double albums are always a tough sell.

Cool site btw, going to read through that whole page this week.
Another album I haven't heard before, although I'm familiar with Valley Girl.

The cover art is from an old, old joke.  It's one of those things where they give you simple line drawings and you're supposed to figure out what it is, and it's never obvious, but once you know the "correct answer" then you can see it.
 
I like the cover. It's minimalist but also very 80s, but pleasing to look at either way. I also like how the two figures look like the letters 'Z a'.

I didn't see the "Za" until much later, because I was already familiar with the joke, but I see now that it's there and intentional, reinforced by the way "Zappa" is written above it.  The triangle is definitely meant to evoke the letter "a".
Funny how the brain works, I immediately saw the "Za" and didn't realize it was the witch until reading about it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 08, 2017, 02:45:11 AM
Official Release #36 - 'The Man From Utopia''
(Released 03/1983)

(https://images.genius.com/5d21bdd1df0d7c86067f3e5ded01088c.1000x1000x1.jpg)

Background Information:
The vinyl and CD versions have very different track lists. On the CD version Cocaine Decisions is longer than the original vinyl version, while Moggio and Stick Together are shorter. The CD version has a ‘bonus track’ embedded in the album. ‘Luigi & The Wise Guys’ wasn’t on the original album, but somehow ended up on the CD version. A strange track, apparently making fun of a crew member, was recorded in Zappa’s home studio around 1981. A couple of other tracks (‘The Dangerous Kitchen’, ‘The Jazz Discharge Party Hats’ and ‘Moggio’) were originally intended for the unreleased ‘Chalk Pie’-album.
The back of the album is a reference to the infamous Italian riots from 1982 (as documented on You Can’t Do That On Stage Anymore vol. 3 & 5) where the band found themselves in the middle of a Sicilian civil war.

The Album Itself:
The Man From Utopia is a diverse album, even to Zappa’s standards. Tracks like ‘The Jazz Discharge Party Hats’ and ‘The Dangerous Kitchen’ are more spoken comedy pieces than songs, pieces like ‘SEX’ and ‘Stick Together’ are cool pop tunes while ‘We Are Not Alone’, ‘Think Walks Amok’ and ‘Moggio’ are upbeat instrumental difficulties. While not as dense as pieces like ‘The Black Page’ or ‘Echidna’s Arf’ they match those pieces in technical difficulty, while remaining fun songs.
Steve Vai has a central role on this album. The way he doubles Zappa’s improvised semi-crooning is unparalleled.

Essential Tracks:
The Radio Is Broken
We Are Not Alone
Stick Together
The Jazz Discharge Party Hats
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 08, 2017, 04:07:24 PM
Let me start off by saying that this is another 80's album that surprised me. Usually I would go from listening to Apostrophe or Roxy to trying an 80's album. That way the difference would be huge, and I rarely enjoyed listening to albums like this one. The funny thing is that by doing this project/threadject I'm beginning to 'get' these albums more and more. There's still stuff on here that I don't like, and a lot of things drag on way too long, but I'm starting to dig the sound.
‘We Are Not Alone’, ‘Think Walks Amok’ and ‘Moggio’ are awesome, and the spoken word stuff is actually funny, even after listening to this album 5 or 6 times in the last couple of days.
This record actually made me buy the Puttin' On The Ritz bootleg LP's, a complete show from 1981, that I never had any interest in, but that I'm really digging right now.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: Mosh on May 08, 2017, 09:36:24 PM
I ordered this last week and it just shipped, so hopefully it gets here in the next few days.

I am familiar with We Are Not Alone and that song is awesome. I've heard mixed things about this album but I'm actually looking forward to it.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: Cyclopssss on May 09, 2017, 01:30:07 AM
This one was definetely a 'miss' for me. I really didn't like very much tracks that are on it and without the inside knowledge we were to get much, much later (like in 1988 or something) I did not get the artwork at all. I'd have to go back for another listen, but not much on this stood out very much for me.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: darkshade on May 09, 2017, 09:16:29 AM
The Man From Utopia is the next in the series of early 80s post-Joe's Garage rock/pop/jazz-prog albums. It's is an interesting one. This is when many see Zappa's rock albums began to decline in quality, as Zappa was putting more effort into other projects (that we'll be getting to soon...) and the humor wasn't as funny as before, which may also be because this small era of Frank's rock albums were seemingly made to appeal to the fan base, so the album sales would help finance Zappa's more serious 80s works.

I didn't check this one out for years, and I didn't care for it at first either. A few years later when the 2012 reissue of the Zappa catalog was happening, I went back and loved it. There is a lot of good stuff, but there's a lot of questionable things too. It's definitely one of Frank's most polarizing albums. It's a fast paced album, and the instrumental tracks are essential Zappa.

There are two versions of the album, the CD version, and the Vinyl which has a different mix and track listing. [from Wikipedia]The album was originally released on vinyl in 1983. An unauthorized CD of this edition (with the exception of a remixed "Moggio") was issued by EMI in the UK in 1986. The album was issued (in remixed and re-sequenced form with one additional track) on CD in 1993 by Barking Pumpkin. The later 1995 Rykodisc edition and the 2012 Universal Music Group release are identical.[]

The album opens with Cocaine Decisions, which is a solid 80s Zappa tune. Lots of cool keyboard runs. Nice harmonica playing. Zappa's done funnier lyrics, but this one is pedestrian. Next is SEX, which is exactly what it's about. The bigger the cushion, the better the pushin' is probably not going to please fans of RDNZL or Inca Roads. Before you know it, the next track, the instrumental Tink Walks Amok, has started. This tune is awesome. Great bass work from Arthur Barrow, crazy time signature changes. the avant-garde, punkish The Radio is Broken uses the technique Zappa did a lot in the 80s, use what's called Sprechgesang speech. Songs like this, or The Blue Light, or some stuff from Shiek Yer Bouti for example. Original Mothers Roy Estrada returns again to provide vocals along side Zappa. Steve Vai is all over this track too. However, songs like this is what turns off even some hardcore fans, the vocals are beyond silly. I think this track is what many people think of when they think of The Man From Utopia, forgetting all the other great stuff spread throughout the disc.

Next up is another instrumental, We Are Not Alone, and it's a big reason I prefer the CD version over the vinyl, for the track listing, the flow is better imo. The instrumentals break up the madness surrounding them better. This tune has some great catchy sax themes. The Dangerous Kitchen is another Sprechgesang tune, and while it's better than The Radio Is Broken, and jazzier, it's still something I don't put on unless I'm listening to the whole album. The subject matter is kind of gross. The Man From Utopia Meets Mary Lou is an R&B Zappa tune. Stick Together is a reggae tune about unions. This song was played live a lot in the 80s. Both of these tunes are pretty pedestrian tunes for Zappa, nothing too offensive, except a couple of cusses here and there. Nothing really dissonant.

The Jazz Discharge Party Hats is one of the strangest Zappa tunes. Yes, it's completely jazz, post-bop, but with incredibly dirty lyrics in Sprechgesang speech. This is the best of the 3 on this album, as musically, if you pay close attention, is quite impressive, and very complex. This track is obviously recorded live, with overdubs, but it's still amazing what the live band could pull off. Zappa himself even admits this is kind of a weird song, but says "come on, it's the 20th Century!" Next is Luigi and The Wise Guys is a doo-wop song, and is technically a bonus track, as it wasn't in the original release of the album, so it's not available on the CD vinyl mix. The album ends on a good note, with the final instrumental Moggio, and probably the best tune on the album. Crazy guitar and keyboard parts all over this one, this became a staple of Zappa's 80s live bands. Conceptual Continuity had to appear sooner or later, and we get to hear the Uncle Meat pig snorts at the beginning, and we then enter prog-jazz-fusion land for another 3 minutes, barely. This is one of those tunes I can't help do 'air-keyboard'. Last bit of pig snorts and the album is over. It took me longer to type this up than it took to listen to this short, and hit or miss, album. This album is worth it once you've gotten into dozens and dozens of other Zappa albums and you can't get enough Frank in your life.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 09, 2017, 09:32:44 AM
"musically, if you pay close attention, is quite impressive, and very complex"

Well, Darkshade, musically it isn't very complex. It's a live free-jazz style improv, where Zappa filled the time talking over it (during the collecting of panties, see Tinseltown Rebellion). The only thing musically interesting is how Steve Vai managed to overdub everything Frank said. That must have taken him quite some time, since overdubbing was a bigger (and technically much harder) thing then than it is nowadays.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: darkshade on May 09, 2017, 10:30:55 AM
"musically, if you pay close attention, is quite impressive, and very complex"

Well, Darkshade, musically it isn't very complex. It's a live free-jazz style improv

That isn't complex??? Definitely more complex than rock/jam band improv.

Also, the way the overdubbed guitar solo reacts to what the rest of the band are doing is pretty crazy.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: Orbert on May 10, 2017, 08:34:47 PM
I still haven't listened to this one, but I've always loved the cover.  Buff, muscled Frank, crushing the neck of the guitar in one hand, boldly wielding a flyswatter in the other.  I should listen to this sometime.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: darkshade on May 10, 2017, 10:05:59 PM
I listened to the vinyl mix earlier, and while I like the difference in sound, I still prefer the CD mix. The vinyl mix doesn't sound as full to me, but some parts are more accentuated and have alternate parts in some songs.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: Mosh on May 14, 2017, 09:35:20 PM
We Are Not Alone is one of my all time favorite Zappa instrumental tracks. I actually know it from the Cheap Thrills Ryko CD, which was the second Zappa CD I bought (after One Size Fits All). I didn't really care for most of the stuff on that disc, but this song really blew my mind. Loved the marimba bridge. It's fairly simple for Zappa standards, but it's such a catchy melody and has a fantastic buildup. I will say that his instrumental compositions have improved quite a bit in the past few albums.

The rest of the album is quite the mixed bag. The instrumental tracks are excellent. Like I said, I feel he really improved in this area during the 80s. The arrangements just seem more creative. The Sprechgesang stuff is really impressive. They're not really songs that I would casually listen to, but they grab my attention on the album. I also really dig Luigi and The Wise Guys. Roy Estrada's presence alone almost makes it feel like a classic Mothers track. Interesting to see the doowop influence slowly work its way back into the Zappa arsenal. He seemed to abandon that after breaking up the original Mothers. The vocal melodies on Cocaine Decisions reminds me of a prototype version of We're Turning Again. Conceptual continuity?

The rest of the album is enjoyable but nothing too special. Overall though I was pleasantly surprised with this album. I've seen it ranked among the worst he's ever done and I'm not sure if that's fair. But I also haven't heard a Zappa album I truly disliked (still haven't heard Thingfish) so take that for what it's worth. Definitely wouldn't recommend to a new fan though. I could agree with it being more something to check out once you've heard most everything else.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: Cyclopssss on May 15, 2017, 01:01:40 AM
Cocaine desisions was one of my favourite tracks on YCDTOSA vol 3. I think it's way better then the studio version (that is, until the gas grenades explode)  :D The follow up track Nig Bizz (which is not on Man from Utupia, btw) is even better and more impressive, as Ike was singing while choking on teargas...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: darkshade on May 15, 2017, 06:28:25 AM
We're not there yet, but we're getting close... How do we treat the upcoming box set "The Old Masters" vol I, II, and III? They were a box set Zappa released of his older albums from the 60s and 70s that were out of print by the mid 80s, many of which were famously remixed by Frank. These albums all got released separately on CD later, some were the official CD versions on Ryko until the 2012 UMe releases reverted some back to the original mixes (Hot Rats, Zoot Allures, etc...) while some stayed in remixed form on the 2012 CDs because their original mixes later wound up on posthumous box sets (Greasy Love Songs, MOFO, Meat Light, etc...) and some remixed versions made it to later box sets (Lumpy Money, etc...) All these box sets have official release numbers.

My main reason for asking about this, is that The Old Masters box sets included the Mystery Disc, and then that got it's own release later on in 1998 [Official release #68] but technically is part of the Old Masters box which is official release 43, 46, and 49. Don't get me started on how these releases shouldn't be considered part of the official canon as it's mostly a re-release of older albums, even if some were drastically remixed, but as I said, these 80s mixes found their way on official releases posthumously.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 15, 2017, 03:18:59 PM
Well I was thinking of just skipping them. Like you said, even the bonus stuff got rereleased officially later on, so there's no point in discussing them. I wasn't planning on going too much into different mixes of the same album. Partly because people will mostly listen to the version of the album they have, and if they don't they'll stream it from different sources, resulting in different mixes being discussed simultaneously. Actual rerecordings (like the electric drums and bass on Ruben), or different track lists have been discussed, but those are rarer (especially in the 80's).
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: Lowdz on May 15, 2017, 03:50:33 PM
This was my first Zappa album, and I like about half of it. I have the vinyl of this and Sheik, Them and Us and a cassette version of Broadway The Hardway, and the three Shut Up albums. That's quite a lot of albums to say I'm not a huge fan. But I tried.
I see the genius but lots of it was too hard to listen to. I don't get most of the "humour". It's maybe an American thing and I don't have any reference point to much of it.
As I've got older, and more into fusion, it all makes more sense and I like it more.

And if it wasn't for Vai I wouldn't have gone anywhere near it back in the 80s.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #36 - 'The Man From Utopia'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 17, 2017, 02:03:20 AM
Thanks for joining in on the fun! The more the merrier.

Next album (Baby Snakes) coming up in a few days!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #37 - 'Baby Snakes'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 22, 2017, 04:18:19 AM
Official Release #37 - 'Baby Snakes'
(Released 03/1983)

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/467/MI0003467818.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Background Information:
The soundtrack to the movie with the same name. Although the concerts that were filmed took place in 1977, and Zappa was quoted in December 1977 saying ‘… which we ought to have out by summertime’, it took Zappa until December 1979 to finish the movie. Zappa had a hard time trying to find a distributor for the movie. The 168-minute film about ‘People who do stuff that is not normal’ wasn’t easy to sell. After shortening it to only 90 minutes there were still no takers.
In the end Zappa decided to do it all by himself. Around Christmas `79 the movie was playing 24 hours a day at the Victoria Theatre. Zappa was still looking for a distribution deal, and he was hopeful: ‘...don’t have a distribution deal yet’ (Februari 1980), ‘it’ll be coming out in June’ (March 1980). In the end Zappa even did the distribution himself, releasing the movie through his Honker Home Video in October 1987. It was as late as 2003 that the movie finally became available for the great public via a DVD release.
In the meanwhile Zappa worked on a soundtrack to be released as album number 37.

The Album Itself:
Originally released as a picture disc LP not containing the ‘Intro Rap/Baby Snakes’ track, this album is exactly what it set out to be: a best of kind of soundtrack to a movie that most fans probably hadn’t seen. Although the album is from 1983, it isn’t surprising to see a lot of similarities to the New York album, which was recorded only 10 months earlier. Titties & Beer, The Black Page #2 and Punky’s Whips add up to over 20 minutes of material also played on Zappa in New York. Jones Crusher was a new song (to be released on Sheik Yerbouti, where it states that the original (pre-overdub) track was recorded on October 31st 1977), where Adrian Belew really shines.
This is Zappa’s first album (not including Mothermania) where all tracks had been released by the time this album came out.
Fun fact: the fan in the Intro Rap is actually Warren Cuccurulo.

Essential Tracks:
Jones Crusher
Punky’s Whips
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #37 - 'Baby Snakes'
Post by: Orbert on May 22, 2017, 10:50:10 AM
Saw this one a few times, but didn't know the background, and like most I hadn't heard of the movie (yet), so it was just another live album from his "later" (at the time) period which I wasn't really that interested in.  Bummer.  I'm sure every live release has at least something to offer, but I can't listen to every live release.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #37 - 'Baby Snakes'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 22, 2017, 02:51:26 PM
This album is possibly in the top 10 of least important albums to check out if you're a casual fan. Since the DVD it's even less special. There is talk of a box set of all the shows from that 3 day run around Halloween `77 and that would be the final blow to this album  :lol (but man I'd love to hear an entire show of that band)

In all fairness though, the album sounds good, and it's a short all killer-no-filler type live record. No new songs (when it came out) sorta like a live hit record.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #37 - 'Baby Snakes'
Post by: Mosh on May 22, 2017, 11:03:38 PM
This album is definitely one of his more redundant releases. I always skipped it because, even though it's a band I like, I had all these songs. Also, the ZFT recently released the full length version of the soundtrack in digital form. There are also other posthumous releases from around this time that are better, although none with Belew iirc. So this really is for completists only. It's a good song selection though. Maybe not essential, but it wouldn't be a bad intro to Zappa. Best approached as a sort of greatest hits imo.

Watched the movie tonight, it's entertaining but pretty long. I like seeing all the behind the scenes stuff, but I could've used a little more concert footage.

Count me in for that Halloween 77 box set. This was one of the greatest Zappa bands and unfortunately it was shortlived, so I'm up for whatever is out there.


Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #37 - 'Baby Snakes'
Post by: ChuckSteak on May 23, 2017, 12:09:22 AM
I don't think it is redudant. I think 90% of the live albums he ever released were excellent. I mean also the ones released after his death.

Road Tapes, Venue #1, 2 & 3, Roxy By Proxy, A Token of His Extreme, Carnegie Hall, Hammersmith Odeon, Philly '76, One Shot Deal, Wazoo, Buffalo, Imaginary Diseases, FZ:OZ, You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Vol. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6, The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life, Make A Jazz Noise Here, Swiss Cheese / Fire, Just Another Band From L.A., Fillmore East June 1971, Roxy & Elsewhere, Bongo Fury, Zappa In New York, etc, etc. All excellent and worth checking out.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #37 - 'Baby Snakes'
Post by: Mosh on May 23, 2017, 07:42:26 PM
Also worth mentioning that, unless I'm forgetting something, this is really Zappa's first "archival" release. There would be a lot of these in the 80s, albums that showcased old bands. Obviously there's stuff like BWS and Weasels which came after the original Mothers had broken up, but at the time that was still his most recent group. This was the first time he went back into the vault, so to speak. There'd be a lot more of these in the 80s of course. Did the popularity of Baby Snakes lead to You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #37 - 'Baby Snakes'
Post by: darkshade on May 24, 2017, 07:48:42 AM
"A MAD-man."

This short live album, as others mentioned, is a bit of a redundant Frank Zappa album, but still worth a listen. This is the first Zappa album that didn't feature his most current bands or projects. The Zappa NY stuff is different enough, but if you have the Baby Snakes DVD, you've heard it all already. In fact, the entire Baby Snakes DVD audio got released in digital form, and it's essentially the audio from the DVD and tracked, released a few years ago (Baby Snakes: The Compleat Soundtrack---Official release #95) and with the new box set coming soon, this album becomes even less necessary to hear or own. But you know what, if you only have about a half hour and need some funny, live Zappa, this is a nice album to pop on.

The intro is directly from the movie. Baby Snakes the song is the same as on Shiek Yer Bouti, which then cuts right to Titties and Beer. Similar to the ZNY version, but obviously Frank and Terry Bozzio ad lib a bit, and remember ZNY is littered with tons of cuts and edits, whereas this seems more uncut. "I was signed with Warner Bros for 8 fucking years!" O'Hearn plays a little Cream tease during the song.

In comes The Black Page, this is a great version, if a bit similar to the ZNY version as well, but with more keys from Tommy Mars. Jones Crusher is not too different from the SYB version. Disco Boy is wayyyyy faster here than the studio version on Zoot Allures. In fact, Dinah Moe Humm is even faster than its studio counterpart. The album closes with the prog humor tune Punky's Whip, and well, it's a tiny bit different here and there (and has no horns like the NY version) but it's essentially the same as the ZNY version.



Also worth mentioning that, unless I'm forgetting something, this is really Zappa's first "archival" release. There would be a lot of these in the 80s, albums that showcased old bands. Obviously there's stuff like BWS and Weasels which came after the original Mothers had broken up, but at the time that was still his most recent group. This was the first time he went back into the vault, so to speak. There'd be a lot more of these in the 80s of course. Did the popularity of Baby Snakes lead to You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore?

Actually, from what I've read, the idea of the Stage albums goes back to late 60s/early 70s. Frank made an album called "Finer Moments" in 1972 which was meant to be the live versions of songs, some not found on studio albums, mixed with improv, jams, and other stuff, spread across different lineups, making the ultimate live album. It was scrapped for some reason, maybe Frank dropped it because he was not satisfied with the 60s Mothers and Flo n Eddie lineups, as he had started working with more serious and talented musicians on Waka/Jawaka and The Grand Wazoo. The album was eventually officially released in 2012 (Official release #92) but some stuff found itself on YCDTOSA vol 5 and The Mystery Disc, so Frank didn't forget about it.

In the mid-70s, Zappa wanted to release a live album called "The Impossible Concert", which was created with similar intentions, but was scrapped for one reason or another, mostly Zappa was dissatisfied with the final product I think, but it can be found for free in great sound quality on Zappateers https://www.zappateers.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=25690 (https://www.zappateers.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=25690) I think by the mid 80s, when Zappa started working on the Stage series, he felt he had enough strong material spread throughout his career to finally release those kinds of live albums. Being that there's a lot from the 80s bands and late 70s bands on those albums, I think Frank preferred the better sound quality, from having better recording equipment later on, digital technology and all. His live bands also got so tight and technically capable of playing anything he wanted them to, compared to earlier bands, especially pre-'73 lineups. But of course, there's stuff from '68-'76 spread across the series as well.

Both The Impossible Concert and Finer Moments contain music not found on any other albums.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #37 - 'Baby Snakes'
Post by: Mosh on May 24, 2017, 10:10:17 AM
In comes The Black Page, this is a great version, if a bit similar to the ZNY version as well, but with more keys from Tommy Mars. Jones Crusher is not too different from the SYB version. Disco Boy is wayyyyy faster here than the studio version on Zoot Allures. In fact, Dinah Moe Humm is even faster than its studio counterpart. The album closes with the prog humor tune Punky's Whip, and well, it's a tiny bit different here and there (and has no horns like the NY version) but it's essentially the same as the ZNY version.

I'm pretty sure the version of Jones Crusher on SYB comes from this performance, minus whatever overdubs were added.

Quote
Actually, from what I've read, the idea of the Stage albums goes back to late 60s/early 70s. Frank made an album called "Finer Moments" in 1972 which was meant to be the live versions of songs, some not found on studio albums, mixed with improv, jams, and other stuff, spread across different lineups, making the ultimate live album. It was scrapped for some reason, maybe Frank dropped it because he was not satisfied with the 60s Mothers and Flo n Eddie lineups, as he had started working with more serious and talented musicians on Waka/Jawaka and The Grand Wazoo. The album was eventually officially released in 2012 (Official release #92) but some stuff found itself on YCDTOSA vol 5 and The Mystery Disc, so Frank didn't forget about it.

In the mid-70s, Zappa wanted to release a live album called "The Impossible Concert", which was created with similar intentions, but was scrapped for one reason or another, mostly Zappa was dissatisfied with the final product I think, but it can be found for free in great sound quality on Zappateers https://www.zappateers.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=25690 (https://www.zappateers.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=25690) I think by the mid 80s, when Zappa started working on the Stage series, he felt he had enough strong material spread throughout his career to finally release those kinds of live albums. Being that there's a lot from the 80s bands and late 70s bands on those albums, I think Frank preferred the better sound quality, from having better recording equipment later on, digital technology and all. His live bands also got so tight and technically capable of playing anything he wanted them to, compared to earlier bands, especially pre-'73 lineups. But of course, there's stuff from '68-'76 spread across the series as well.

Both The Impossible Concert and Finer Moments contain music not found on any other albums.
OK cool, interesting history. We'll get to it at some point, but Finer Moments is one of the best posthumous albums IMO.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #37 - 'Baby Snakes'
Post by: darkshade on May 26, 2017, 07:19:24 AM
I enjoy Finer Moments as well. For me it's in the top 5 best Zappa albums post-Lather.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Sympony Orchestra Vol.1'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 28, 2017, 04:28:47 AM
Official Release #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
(Released 06/1983)

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0002/098/MI0002098808.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Background Information:
After years of trying his best to get his orchestral music recorded, Zappa finally managed to get the London Symphony Orchestra to play his music. Recording the orchestra was again a big ordeal. The room where the recording took place was way too dry to have any reverb, and the stage was too small to fit the musicians (a couple of viola players had to go home and get paid just as well). Because of the acoustics and the little room on stage Zappa had to get creative with his microphoning, which in turn was making the musicians nervous.
The backstage bar didn’t help the recording either. So in the end Zappa finally had his orchestra, but the sound wasn’t what he imagined, and the orchestra didn’t play the music correctly. Luckily for him the music was recorded on a 24 track digital recorder, so when he went to mix the album  he had the possibility to edit out false notes. The next step was to add a different atmosphere to each section of music. All of a sudden the dryness of the room was a blessing. A different digital reverb could make a ton of difference in terms of sound for each section of music. Adding more reverb meant further concealing mistakes.
The vinyl version (of L.S.O. Vol. 1, released in 1983) is the mix Zappa originally made, a couple of years later (1986, a year before L.S.O. Vol. 2 was released) a CD was released containing material of both volumes.
L.S.O. Vol. 2 (but more on that later) sounded just as lush and romantic as Vol. 1 (although most mistakes couldn’t be edited out), the double-CD reissue (released in 1995) is a totally different mix. The reverb is cut way back, the sloppiness of the orchestra is much more audible, but the sound is more direct and transparent. It actually fits the music, and Zappa’s sound better.

The Album Itself:
Zappa’s orchestral work has always been about contrasts. Massive percussion with tiny melodies on top, switching from dark brass to sweet clarinets in the blink of an eye, very loud chaotic passages to dark moody pieces. Everything can happen anytime, and it does.
Sad Jane is titled appropriately, it is one of the saddest pieces Zappa has ever made (sadness isn’t an emotion that’s often apparent in Zappa’s music). The first movement is a dark and moody piece, very un-Zappa like in sound and timbre. In the second movement the percussion comes in, and more and more melodic material enters the composition, and it starts to sound more familiar. Flashbacks of the original format of the Bebop Tango (Farther O’Blivion) and even The Black Page #2 can be found in the piece. After the rhythmically most dense part the piece has a small coda riddled in the sadness it started with.
Pedro’s Dowry has a more Zappa-esque sound. Lots of percussion, big crescendo’s, challenging rhythms but with a fairly steady backbeat. After all the incredible difficulties the ending seems like a classic Zappa joke.
Envelopes is a wonderful version of this track. It’s a really immersive experience, listening to this with headphones, Chad Wackerman’s toms go all around you.
The big piece is Mo ’N Herb’s Vacation. The first movement is essentially a piece for bass (brass in this recording), drums and clarinet that Zappa took from his guitar solo in Cruisin’ For Burgers off of Zappa in New York (the melody is exactly copied in the opening vocal line of Wet T-Shirt Night). The second movement is sharp, wild and loud. The percussion is a direct nudge to Varèse’s Ionisation (where it all started off for Zappa). The third movement has a bit of everything, resulting in the fact that it’s probably the most dynamic piece on the album.

Essential Tracks:
Sad Jane
Mo ’N Herb’s Vacation, First and Third Movement
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: Orbert on May 28, 2017, 07:15:03 AM
I picked this up (on vinyl obviously) when it first came out.  I was kinda trying to get back into Zappa, though that didn't really work out.  At this point in my life, I didn't have the time to play new albums over and over and really get into them, really absorb them, but I listened to it a few times.

It was not what I'd hoped for, but pretty much what I expected, which is both good and bad.  This was my introduction to Kent Nagano, but not the London Symphony Orchestra, of course.  The playing was fine, but the music was a mixed bag.  It mostly felt like some of the odd, meandering instrumental sections during pieces like "The Adventures of Greggary Peccary" only expanded to feature length.  Interesting contrasts of melody and rhythm, but no really catchy melodies to be found, or if they showed up, it's not like they repeated enough to set a groove or anything.

At the time, I was still expecting anything played by a symphony orchestra to be "classical music" or at least sound like it, and this album set me straight on that.  This is not neo-classical anything; this is Frank realizing one of his dreams, which is to have his music played by a symphony orchestra, but it's Zappa music through and through, nothing classical about it.  Just a larger ensemble, a larger canvas for him to work with.

I also picked up The Yellow Shark years later (more on that when we get to it) and it felt the same. As much as I can admire the compositions themselves, I've come to the conclusion that orchestral Zappa just isn't my thing.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: darkshade on May 28, 2017, 07:23:34 AM
Oh man, now we're up to the part of the Zappa canon that is not for the faint of heart. There's some seriously challenging music on this album, and subsequent albums. I have to say, I thought we were going to treat the LSO sessions as one album, as LSO vol 2 is from the same sessions as LSO vol 1, and both volumes have been released together as one album on CD with different track listing, essentially mixing 1 and 2 together. The CD version is what I have, but I've always wanted to hear the vinyl mix of these two albums. I guess I'll only listen to the LSO vol 1 tracks for this thread.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on May 28, 2017, 11:39:32 AM
The vinyl really does sound different. Zappa wanted to paint different moods and even pretend like different parts were recorded in different rooms by adding tons of reverb. The sound really differs. Not always to the better, but it is what Zappa had in mind, apparently.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: ChuckSteak on May 28, 2017, 12:36:41 PM
I rarely listen to these Orchestra albums. I don't like them very much.  :-\
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: BanksD on May 28, 2017, 02:56:21 PM
Ahh, Zappa's classical output. Now this is where things start to get interesting.

The LSO albums aren't my favorite from this section his output but they are some damn good modern classical music.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: Mosh on May 28, 2017, 06:33:40 PM
Didn't realize the LSO CD was a different track order. I thought it was just a compilation of the two volumes (like Joe's Garage and SUAPYG). Luckily I read the OP first so I was able to do a playlist of the original LSO.

Anyway, I haven't heard this album yet but I like Zappa's orchestral work. The original version of Lumpy Gravy and The Yellow Shark are awesome. 200 Motels and Orchestral Favorites have their moments but meander a little too much for me.

Sad Jane is a really cool piece. As Nihil-Morari said, it's a level of melancholy you don't usually get in Zappa's work. It's very pretty sounding. Not as much of the typical Zappa weirdness. Movement 2 is more typical Zappa but still cool. The subtle callbacks to other pieces are cool.

The original version of Pedro's Dowry never made much of an impression on me, but this version has a lot more going for it. For one, it's much more dynamic. There are some really intense crescendos that I don't remember on the original version. I guess this version has also been revised. Either way, it's pretty cool. I can see how someone looking for a good melody wouldn't enjoy something like this, but for me it just proves that sometimes the notes are secondary to the rhythmic ideas.

I don't know what it is about Envelopes but every time I listen to it I kinda space out. Happens with Drowning Witch, happened on this album. It's a cool piece but by the time it's over I've forgotten what just happened.

Mo n Herb was extremely dense. That's going to need more listens.

Glad we're doing the two albums separately, because just the first disc is a lot to digest.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: darkshade on May 30, 2017, 03:48:59 PM
For me the "London Symphony Orchestra" albums have always been the hardest albums to get into, in regards to Zappa's "serious" works. I am always apprehensive to listen to it, as it contains some of Zappa's most dissonant music, and definitely gives you that feeling of tension and nervousness, not to mention the fact that Zappa's serious classical work can get VERY loud, often suddenly. Listening to it in the order in which volume 1 was originally presented, I find myself enjoying the music much more. I'm able to stay focused on the music more, and its inner beauty can be found more easily. Album flow is always important, and I think the 2 disc edition with both volumes messed that up by rearranging all the tunes from the LSO sessions. I would still like to hear the vinyl mixes some day, but for now, I may never listen to my copy in the CD track order again.

LSO vol. 1 opens with Sad Jane, a new tune. I never gave Sad Jane a proper listen, it is second on the LSO I&II edition and follows some seriously dissonant music. Presented as the opening tune makes it easier to digest, and I feel silly for overlooking this piece. It is hauntingly beautiful.

The rendition of Pedro's Dowry here is also better than I recall. This piece is from the '75 Orchestral Favorites recordings. I know the piece from other releases but never realized how rich the harmonies are in this version. It goes into a little improv section, even some funky Latin percussion, that pops up near the end. Really cool.

Envelopes appears here, after appearing on SATLTSADW, and the piece goes back to the late 70s as well. This version is not my favorite, I actually prefer the rock version, but it's good nonetheless.

The album ends with another new piece, Mo n Herb's Vacation. A giant piece akin to The Adventures of Greggary Peccary. What is there to say, this is 20th Century Classical music with Zappa's sensibilities felt throughout. Zappa's orchestral music sounds like a mix of Stravinsky and Varese, with a little more humor involved; but that is one reason this is my least favorite of his serious works. The humor is missing. The performances seem too serious, and sometimes the music is just too scary. I really have to be in the mood for this music to enjoy it, it requires concentration, and is not something you can throw on in the background or while driving. You could but it probably wouldn't be a good idea. There is one moment in the piece that makes me laugh out loud, though, it's somewhere in the middle, the trumpets do something funny sounding, like blaring their horns. Knowing they were at a bar in between takes makes me wonder if it was intentional by Zappa or something the trumpet players did because they had been drinking.

Also, for the first time, we hear what sounds like a bubble popping during a few moments in this album. This is a recurring sound that appears throughout the rest of Zappa's albums, particularly in the Classical or later electronic (Synclavier) albums.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: darkshade on May 31, 2017, 03:27:27 PM
Seems like this album is scaring some away, admittedly this is a harsh album. If you have no experience with 20th Century Classical music, Orchestral music, or Classical in general, or avant-garde music, I can't imagine it being enjoyable. Most of FZ's albums up til this point I could throw on the instant I feel like it. With LSO, not so much. Other Classical and Synclavier albums I enjoy as well, but this album is just scary. It has it's prettier moments, but overall it's a dark album. For the most part, this is the music Frank really wanted to make, and the Classical music is the most essence of Zappa, it's likely the sound of what he heard in his head; again, the lack of humor in these sessions makes it my least favorite of his Classical work, and adds to the scariness of the music, but repeat listens reveal Zappa's genius. Of course, even as big of a Zappa fan as I am, I don't listen to LSO much, even when I'm on a big Zappa kick, and wouldn't likely have put it on any time soon if not for this thread. I like a lot of FZ's Classical stuff, just not so much this album. Still good, but tough to handle sometimes.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: BanksD on May 31, 2017, 06:12:37 PM
This album is certainly not for the faint of heart. I must be weird though, because Zappa's classical works are probably some of my favorites by him. Stuff like Civilization Phase III, Lumpy Gravy, The Yellow Shark would easily be in my top Zappa albums. This one is definitely a little lower on the list compared to those however, and is quite different in a lot of ways. His later orchestral works are a little bit more streamlined and in some ways more accessible (even if only slightly). Even though his classical albums tend to be some of the more impenetrable of his catalog, they're still just as diverse as his rock/jazz albums.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: Cyclopssss on June 01, 2017, 12:11:18 AM
Yeah nothing from me again, as I don't own this. Other than that his classical work is a challenge to get into. I first heard some of his classical skills on ' 200 Motels'  and was severely taken back at the start. I will say that there are some lovely pieces on ' The Lost Episodes'  from his earliest efforts. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: darkshade on June 01, 2017, 06:33:13 AM
Yeah nothing from me again, as I don't own this. Other than that his classical work is a challenge to get into. I first heard some of his classical skills on ' 200 Motels'  and was severely taken back at the start. I will say that there are some lovely pieces on ' The Lost Episodes'  from his earliest efforts.

I'm with others that prefer other 'serious music' albums over LSO. I don't think 200 Motels is a great representation of Zappa's classical work. The best classical albums have yet to come.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: Cyclopssss on June 01, 2017, 07:12:34 AM
No, it was a weird batch of classical and rock, but he forshadowed his better work with the finale, Strictly Genteel though.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: Mosh on June 01, 2017, 09:50:58 AM
I'm really not a fan of 200 Motels. I've tried many times to get into the soundtrack but the rock songs seem subpar and I can't get into the orchestral stuff at all. Also still haven't been able to bring myself to sit through the movie.

Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on June 12, 2017, 07:23:01 AM
Update coming next week. I'm in the middle of all sorts of deadlines (hooray for teacher-life).
If you want to pre-listen, check out 'Boulez Conducts Zappa: The Perfect Stranger'
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #38 - 'London Symphony Orchestra Vol. 1'
Post by: BanksD on June 12, 2017, 02:21:29 PM
Oh boy, I totally forgot about that album! I'll have to brush up on that one.
Title: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on June 27, 2017, 10:36:24 AM
Official Release #39 - 'Boulez Conducts Zappa: The Perfect Stranger'
(Released 08/1984)

(https://www.progarchives.com/progressive_rock_discography_covers/1023/cover_12471662016_r.jpg)

Background Information:
It started when Zappa sent Boulez some scores and simply asked him if he could conduct his music. Zappa was a fan of Boulez as a composer as well as a conductor and wanted his music to have the Boulez-treatment. Frank arranged three tracks for the small 29 piece, chamber-like orchestra Boulez had under his wings (the ‘Ensemble InterContemporain’) and recorded those three tracks to the highest standard. Publicity wise the combination was great, both Zappa and Boulez were big names in their respective genre, and the collaboration got some media attention.
The actual process of rehearsing the music wasn’t as smooth as that though. According to Kasper Sloots (zappa-analysis.com), Zappa demanded perfection and actually sent away musicians that weren’t ‘performing up to his standards’. It isn’t hard to see why that the (extremely serious) orchestra wouldn’t take such repercussions from a guy who got they still saw as the Frank Zappa that got famous during the 60’s.

The Album Itself:
This is an entirely different album compared to LSO or Orchestral Favourites. Firstly the orchestra is way smaller and (very noticeably) lacks a drumkit and secondly only three tracks are actual live performed music, the rest being Synclavier tracks. Or as Zappa put it: ‘The Barking Pumpkin Digital Gratification Consort’.
The 23 minutes of orchestral music (The Perfect Stranger, Naval Aviation in Art? and Dupree’s Paradise) are still fitting to Zappa’s big, dense, rhythmic way of writing classical music. Atonal, subdivided rhythms, big contrasts, you get the picture. The big difference between this album and the two orchestral albums before this one is the clarity. The smaller ensemble meant that each part is easier to discern. It results in a less daunting listening experience as well.
The Synclavier pieces are really diverse. The Girl In The Magnesium Dress started off as synclavier-program leftovers (number to control parameters but then assigned to a pitch instead of the original parameter) “So what I did was take the rhythm of the dust and impose pitch data on the dust and thereby move the inaudible G number into the world of audibility with a pitch name on it”. A real modern way of composing, sort of like the aleatoric music of Xenakis, Ives, Cage and others (Boulez was actually one of the first to use the term ‘aleatoric’ for this ‘chance music’).
Outside Now Again is a transcribed guitar solo taken from Outside Now, transcribed by Steve Vai and then fed into the synclavier. Dynamics could only be achieved by adding more or less instruments. And irregular groupings could only go as far as triplets back then.
Finally ‘Jonestown’ is an early Synclavier experiment, more a sound collage than an actual piece. It shows Zappa experimenting with a new type of composing, a new way of getting his message across. A couple of sounds are really haunting, a sound Zappa would steer clear from in his rock outing, but somehow caught his attention in his classical output (see: Sad Jane off of LSO Vol. 1)

Essential Tracks:
The Perfect Stranger
Dupree’s Paradise
Jonestown
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: BanksD on June 27, 2017, 04:51:54 PM
This album is an interesting one, its a lot more refined than LSO I think, and definitely shows Zappa beginning to get a grip on the types of Classical stuff he was interested in, but I don't find myself listening to it a lot. Its quite good though, not for those who don't prefer the classical stuff though.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on June 28, 2017, 04:13:21 AM
It's a great record, doesn't stick with me as much as LSO or Yellow Shark though. It's still amazing that Boulez ended up conducting it, I'm a bit of a fanboy for mr Boulez's work  :hat



Just a nitpick though:  :angel: Xenakis and Ives didn't compose any aleatoric music, they both occasionally used ad libitum sections though.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on June 28, 2017, 01:18:46 PM
You're actually right. I've always connected both (but mainly Xenakis) to chance music. Which in a way is correct, apparently (https://books.google.nl/books?id=Sg1EAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=xenakis+aleatoric&source=bl&ots=Ak0yz1cfRE&sig=3oL7rVbVGkOn6XAN1xUijWVrzy8&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbusPrn-HUAhXFh7QKHeJOAXsQ6AEIODAC#v=onepage&q=xenakis%20aleatoric&f=false (https://books.google.nl/books?id=Sg1EAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=xenakis+aleatoric&source=bl&ots=Ak0yz1cfRE&sig=3oL7rVbVGkOn6XAN1xUijWVrzy8&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbusPrn-HUAhXFh7QKHeJOAXsQ6AEIODAC#v=onepage&q=xenakis%20aleatoric&f=false)) Xenakis used mathematic formulas to compose music. Which is pretty much aleatoric, right? I'm kinda out of my depth here.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on June 28, 2017, 11:01:06 PM
You're actually right. I've always connected both (but mainly Xenakis) to chance music. Which in a way is correct, apparently (https://books.google.nl/books?id=Sg1EAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=xenakis+aleatoric&source=bl&ots=Ak0yz1cfRE&sig=3oL7rVbVGkOn6XAN1xUijWVrzy8&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbusPrn-HUAhXFh7QKHeJOAXsQ6AEIODAC#v=onepage&q=xenakis%20aleatoric&f=false (https://books.google.nl/books?id=Sg1EAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=xenakis+aleatoric&source=bl&ots=Ak0yz1cfRE&sig=3oL7rVbVGkOn6XAN1xUijWVrzy8&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbusPrn-HUAhXFh7QKHeJOAXsQ6AEIODAC#v=onepage&q=xenakis%20aleatoric&f=false)) Xenakis used mathematic formulas to compose music. Which is pretty much aleatoric, right? I'm kinda out of my depth here.


No, he used mathematical formulas in his early work to essentially "transpose" architectural shapes into music, using massive non-octave scales. There are some instances in some of those early pieces (particularly "Pithoprakta"), where he used brownian motion as the basis of the form (structure) of several sections of that piece to create "clouds" of notes. They are the sections where the string players are tapping their instruments.

Very quickly on (around the late 60s) as his music matured, the direction he moved in musically paralleled Messiaen and Lutoslawski and in turn, borrowed structures from Stravinsky. That period onward, is more or less "traditional" in that modernist respect.

So no, not aleatoric. In the two pieces "Duel" and "Strategy", he made extensive use of ad libitum. Those two pieces play around with a similar thing Stockhausen was doing at the same time, of pitting groups of musicians against each other, with less than certain outcomes; except Xenakis wasn't leaving much actual freedom compared to Stockhausen's half-noted experiments.   :)


So, that's enough rambling from me. I want to get duked by a baby octopus and spewed upon with cream corn  :corn
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on June 28, 2017, 11:05:49 PM
I'll have to find the quote but Xenakis himself actually criticized Cage and Stockhausen (middle period, before Licht) for giving too much freedom to their performers
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on June 29, 2017, 04:17:30 PM
Very, very interesting. Funny thing is, today I had a long chat with a good friend of mine (a composer, former head of a conservatory) about aleatoric music, Xenakis, Cage, and guys like Stockhausen, Berlioz, Messiaen, Penderecki, Berg, Webern and even Lutoslawski (of whom I've heard little to no music yet), I need to soak this in now, and listen to a lot of music. Good thing is that he is in the process of giving away most of his record collection, so I've got about 100 records of modern classical music to get through. Good times!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on June 29, 2017, 06:19:53 PM
Back to Zappa, you may find this very interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwoTPS8gbJM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwoTPS8gbJM)

Before he formed The Mothers, he was already experimenting with orchestras  :metal

The big show-stopping moment of this concert is a largely aleatoric work called "Opus #5). Zappa talks about the process of the piece in the concert (so I'll leave it to him), but it is fascinating to see Zappa experimenting with John Cage's concepts (the piano parts are composed and then arranged by random)

Also, he does some interesting stuff in Food Gathering/Welcome to the US (off Yellow Shark), getting different groups of performers to improvise a "weird" or "Strange" sound he has given to them selectively, at different points coinciding with the narration.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on June 29, 2017, 06:24:45 PM
I need to soak this in now, and listen to a lot of music. Good thing is that he is in the process of giving away most of his record collection, so I've got about 100 records of modern classical music to get through. Good times!

Sounds like you've got a really groovy few weeks ahead of you  :corn

When I get the chance, I'll probably go for a big haul of cds/vinyls myself  :tup
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Mosh on June 29, 2017, 07:27:13 PM
I think the smaller ensemble works better for Zappa's music. This is probably among the best orchestral album, even though half of it is synclavier stuff. Is it blasphemy to say I almost prefer the synclavier songs? Girl In the Magnesium Dress, Outside Now, and Jonestown are probably the highlights for me. Love the percussive sounds in Girl and the creepy vibe on Jonestown. It is strange that the more haunting style never found its way on to Frank's rock stuff. Almost a shame because this is a new side of him that I have never heard before and between Jonestown and Sad Jane, I can't get enough of that.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Pragmaticcircus on June 29, 2017, 07:52:05 PM
Wolf Harbor?
Feeding the Monkies at Ma Maison?


They're also fantastic!  :tup
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Mosh on June 29, 2017, 08:41:02 PM
I haven't gotten to Monkies yet (you know your Zappa collection is getting out of hand when you have to double check if you have it or not) but I do enjoy Dance Me This. Wolf Harbor is a really strange piece. The first time I heard it I hated it. The second time I heard it, and after reading up on the Wolf Harbor that the piece is based on, it clicked and I understood what he was doing. One of his most atmospheric pieces for sure.

I'm definitely a sucker for the synclavier stuff.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: darkshade on June 30, 2017, 01:22:15 PM
I love the Synclavier stuff too. This album is definitely a mixed bag, and not one I listen to often, but I like it more than LSO. The orchestral stuff is more accessible IMO than the preceding LSO album. The title track is one of Zappa's great orchestral pieces, yet one of the most unpopular tunes in the Zappa canon. Lots of different moods covered.

The Synclavier side of Zappa would only get better from here on out, but these first experiments with the machine are pretty cool. Zappa's music is becoming increasingly more complex at this point, and the Synclavier helped to speed that process up.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Mosh on July 18, 2017, 10:10:43 PM
Any updates coming on this?
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: njfirefighter on July 21, 2017, 04:07:55 PM
Great thread, playing catch up. A good read though. Will try to follow along when it resumes> Huge Zappa fan. I probably own about 30 or so cd releases to go with several official and bootleg dvd's. 
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Nihil-Morari on July 23, 2017, 02:44:18 PM
Any updates coming on this?

Coming this week. Will be a bit on/off for the coming weeks (holidays), but we're moving on to Then or Us soon.


Great thread, playing catch up. A good read though. Will try to follow along when it resumes> Huge Zappa fan. I probably own about 30 or so cd releases to go with several official and bootleg dvd's. 
Nice, always cool to have some fresh blood!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: darkshade on August 04, 2017, 07:00:42 AM
I'm hoping this gets revived soon. I've been bitten by the Zappa bug a little recently.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: The Curious Orange on October 31, 2017, 02:38:59 AM
*Bump*

Dear Nihil-Morari -

Is this thread dead? Some of us are waiting patiently...
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: jammindude on October 31, 2017, 11:30:49 PM
I may not comment much, but this thread is a constant source of reference to me. 

I don't think I picked up Uncle Meat until WEEKS after the review, and I only just recently acquired Cruising with Reuben and the Jets and Live at the Fillmore.   I'm adoring all of it so far.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Mosh on October 31, 2017, 11:37:28 PM
This is a great thread and I really hope it continues soon.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: jammindude on May 07, 2018, 11:30:57 AM
 I’m really hoping we can bring this thread back. Because of this thread, I now own everything up through 200 motels. And I love nearly every note! It’s a fantastic reference thread if nothing else.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: jammindude on August 03, 2018, 01:55:50 PM
I just wanted to bump this thread to say that it has been a HUGE help and valuable resource to me.

With the exception of Mothermania, I now own every album up to Just Another Band From LA, as well as Over-Nite Sensation, Joe’s Garage, Bongo Fury, and Lumpy Money.

Loving every note!!!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: Podaar on August 03, 2018, 02:20:27 PM
jammin,

Get Apostrophe('), One Size Fits All, Sheik Yerbouti, Studio Tan and Zappa in New York! Stat!
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: jammindude on August 04, 2018, 02:27:43 PM
jammin,

Get Apostrophe('), One Size Fits All, Sheik Yerbouti, Studio Tan and Zappa in New York! Stat!

I actually have older copies of Apostrophe and Sheik Yerbouti on vinyl, but I haven't pulled them out since I really "caught the bug"....maybe I can work on digitizing them this weekend.
Title: Re: The Frank Zappa Discography Thread - #39 - 'The Perfect Stranger'
Post by: RodrigoAltaf on August 24, 2018, 01:02:43 PM
I interviewed Terry Bozzio the other day, and it was published today. Check it out: https://www.sonicperspectives.com/interviews/interview-with-terry-bozzio/