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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Shine on August 12, 2015, 04:07:17 PM
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Just about 5 years ago, Mike Portnoy left Dream Theater after a disagreement about the direction of the band. He said that he didn't want to end the band, just go on a 5 year break to recharge creatively.
Well, here we are. 5 years later. And I think it's worth considering whether Portnoy had a point. Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best the creative efforts behind these previous two albums have been received with a mixed response. A Dramatic Turn of Events, while arguably the most "progressive" work they've done in years, took a huge number of queues directly from Images and Words. Dream Theater, so far as I can tell from my experience with the fan base, is generally seen as being no better than ADTOE in terms of overall quality. (I'm talking averages here people. Yes, some people *love* DT, but from what I've seen that's not the most common point of view).
So what if they had taken a 5 year break? They would, assuming they stuck to the plan, be just now getting back together and writing new material for the first time since Black Clouds.
Do you think the band was right to stick together, drop have Portnoy leave, find a new drummer, and carry on? Or was Portnoy on to something? Could they have used a few years off to recharge?
EDIT:Some edits to clarify my points and fix some errors.
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
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If they took a break, they would be forgotten and trying to gain lost ground.
If they took a break, there would be no Breaking All Illusions, which placed second in the DTF tournament this year.
Did Mike Portnoy sound more refreshed creatively nowadays? I don't hear it.
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
I agree. I think both ADTOE and DT12 are refreshing after the last couple with Portnoy. Besides, I don't think Portnoy would have come back with a lot of fresh ideas. I think he wanted to go in a harder direction than JP, JR, JM or JLB wanted. I don't think the band's decision would have changed if they'd taken a hiatus. Portnoy is happier out of DT... DT seems happy having a new, seemingly more creative partner behind the monster.
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Well, here we are. 5 years later. And I think it's worth considering whether Portnoy had a point. Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
My favorite thing on DTF is when commenters confuse their own personal opinions with the "consensus" of the entire body of DT's fans.
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A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
I don't think this is correct.
I thought from my personal opinion that ADTOE was average but have grown to appreciate it. The self titled on the other hand blew me away, based on that album, I'd disagree with Portnoy saying they needed a hiatus.
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The last 2 albums got me back on board in terms of genuine interest in new releases after a long period of "passing interest".
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I thought from my personal opinion that ADTOE was average but have grown to appreciate it. The self titled on the other hand blew me away,
It's the complete opposite for me.
And to the OP, the band did NOT
drop Portnoy,
He Quit. I know you said that in your first sentence but by the end of your post, apparently something changed.
The last 2 albums got me back on board in terms of genuine interest in new releases after a long period of "passing interest".
I would take the last two albums over the previous two all day long.
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
i would agree with you, Shine, that the albums are average, but a lot of people seem to dig them.
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I see what you're saying, Shine, and it's actually an interesting point to make. However, the big difference is not the 5 years they would've taken off had they agreed with Portnoy (as well as the albums they've created in the interim), but the direction of the band as a whole.
Given the integral role Portnoy played in Dream Theater, the other members have had to step up and become acclimated to doing things without him. They also had to find another member of "the family" so that they continue playing and creating music. We can speculate over whether or not the output from here on out would be as good, but I can tell you this: I much prefer ADTOE and DT12 to SC and BCASL.
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To answer the question: no.
As for the OP, LOL at editing it from incorrectly saying that fans didn't care that much for ADTOE to going down the "they borrowed from I&W" route.
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To answer the question: no.
As for the OP, LOL at editing it from incorrectly saying that fans didn't care that much for ADTOE to going down the "they borrowed from I&W" route.
I didn't say the fans didn't care for it (and I left my original wording in there, so I'm not hiding anything) I said that it was an average album.
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
Yeah , apart from a minority - i'd say A Dramatic Turn Of Events was considered a massive step up from the previous album.
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And ELL OH ELL at the idea that ADTOE borrows the arrangements from Images & Words and implies that that's a bad thing :lol
How many bands have songs with identical structures ?
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Personally, I doubt they would have ever reunited had they done the 5 year break.
It's a very long period of time, which would be facing its end just now.
I personally think everyone of them would have lost interest in DT and focused in doing other stuff, so no, I don't think it was the best thing to do.
You can say "1 year is nothing" right now, but when that year actually passes, you'll be like "wtf, I'm very different now", seriously, let alone half a decade.
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I remember the whole debacle very clearly. I remember waking up to a text from my DT fan pal who said Portnoy has quit Dream Theater !!!
And I spent the whole day reading articles online about it...
Then the whole sorry " woe is me " passive aggressive deleted twitter /facebook posts with back pedalling almost apologies began and seemed like they didn't stop for a year or maybe two.
Every time I was ready to start liking Mike P again - he'd say something else stupid and i'd be like ::) Oh ffs.
The best thing he did since quitting DT was to jump overboard from the sinking ship that was Adrenaline Mob.
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I think I should be clear: at no point in my original post did I say whether or not I think Dream Theater would be better or worse off if they had taken the break. I'm really just interested in discussing the idea. But it seems like just about everyone here is more interested in mocking the very idea that Dream Theater could possibly be better off if they had taken time off, rather than having a reasoned discussion on the topic.
Sorry I brought it up.
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The last 2 albums got me back on board in terms of genuine interest in new releases after a long period of "passing interest".
I would take the last two albums over the previous two all day long.
Every bit of this. IMO, SC was their worst album, and still is. BCSL was not really much better. The step up in quality after the change was...well...dramatic.
MP was correct that the band needed a fresh direction, it was just obviously not anticipated that the fresh direction would come via a split.
In the end, and considering where they were at the time, it seems to me that both parties benefited from the split...though I think DT got the slightly better end of the deal.
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Portnoy got a reduced income and no steady "home".
DT lost a drummer who thought he was the star of the show and the rest of the band would Kowtow ( nugget ) to his every whim.
DT gained a drummer who was more than grateful to have the job.
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Considering MP was a huge part of DT both musical ideas and playing wise ADTOE is a great success and example thay can still do great music without him. As for the self-titled album it's even better than ADTOE, IMO.
So, MP is not right after all.
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I think A Dramatic Turn Of Events is way better than DT12 - but it's mostly due to that awful snare on DT12.
Both albums have great songs - but DT12 has more duffers to my ears.
I like every song on A Dramatic Turn...But don't really enjoy Along For The Ride or Surrender To Reason...
And Illumination Theory is good but it's very disjointed.
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I think I should be clear: at no point in my original post did I say whether or not I think Dream Theater would be better or worse off if they had taken the break. I'm really just interested in discussing the idea. But it seems like just about everyone here is more interested in mocking the very idea that Dream Theater could possibly be better off if they had taken time off, rather than having a reasoned discussion on the topic.
Sorry I brought it up.
Everybody is discussing whether they think Portnoy is right or not. Nobody can just discuss it with enough substance because the event never really happened
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I prefer ADTOE and DT12 over SC and BC&SL, so I'd say Portnoy was wrong.
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https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43404.msg1935862#msg1935862 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43404.msg1935862#msg1935862)
DTF ranks ADTOE #5, ahead of every MP album after SDOIT.
DTF ranks DT12 #9, ahead of the last two MP albums and WDADU.
Given that the fans here tend to like most or all of DT's albums, I don't think I would consider a rank of #6 or #7 to be an "average" effort.
My commentary would be:
DTF generally considers ADTOE to be among the band's best efforts, and the consensus definitely says it's the best since SDOIT, edging at ToT. Even if you consider that one a statistical tie, the consensus say that it's the best album since ToT.
DTF has had a mixed response to DT12. Few people rank it in their top three. Over 2/3 of users rank it within their top nine. But 15 users rank it in the bottom three. However, though DT12 comes in 9th, it's not very far behind #8 8VM or #7 FII at all. And it's way ahead of #10 BCSL. I would say the consensus on DT12 is that there is none, because it's a very divisive album, but that the result factors out to the fans thinking it's an average album, nothing special within their discography, but well better than the last two Portnoy albums, which DTF considers to be among the worst alongside WDADU.
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I'm going to go with the Portnoy was probably right angle.
The last to albums were middle of the road for me. Mainly, there really was nothing about the last two albums or songs that make me want to put them on but once or twice a year. And mainly to see if the passage of time has changed my opinion.
The most DT advancement song is probably Illumination Theory and as others have stated, there are problems with it. It has some really great moments, but misses the mark in the larger perspective.
Portnoy would have benefited the most from the hiatus because he would be the one throwing himself into different projects with totally different people. And that's a big part of growing musically.
Petrucci probably would have released his solo album. Not exactly a negative. We might have even had some of the I&W2 and DT12 songs with Rudess on them. Possibly even Mangini. But maybe a different singer. That could be awesome.
LaBrie probably would have one more LaBrie project album. I think those projects help his growth outside of DT which can be returned back into DT.
Rudess would probably just keep pumping out his solo albums. No real change there.
Myung is the wild card. Most likely he would have teamed up with somebody and not been the main driving musical force like Jelly Jam and Platypus.
But we probably would have more, not less music. And I think the last two DT albums have shown that the magic does have something to do with the Petrucci-keyboardist-Portnoy team. And it seems kind of clear by now that Mangini is not going to step up into that role and the other guys have had plenty of time to do so.
This next DT album is going to shape my perspective on future DT. If it is at Dramatic/12 level, I'll still buy it ... but it won't feel like a Christmas morning present purchase like the glory days.
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I prefer ADTOE and DT12 over SC and BC&SL, so I'd say Portnoy was wrong.
On top of the fact that their popularity was seemingly growing with new fans....they were as 'big' as they'd ever been and on a roll career wise and MP wanted to just abruptly stop all due to the fact he was having more fun with a younger band.
I don't think MP ever stopped to consider the fact that his tendencies may have been the underlying 'issue' with why he felt the way he did about the band, his relationships with his band members and how 'stale' it felt to him.
The rest of them have not missed a beat (IMO been more sharp and writing better since) and seem way more energized than when MP was around. Sure....he's done some projects as well but I think the fact that he came back to them and asked for his spot back after AvengedSevenfold didn't ask him to continue to tour with them is a clear indication that he didn't need or want a break.....he just wanted to hold those guys hostage for a bit while he yucked it up with a younger, more 'popular' band.
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Judging by the animosity that erupted once it had half a chance to, I honestly don’t think the band would ever have reformed after a 5 year break. Or if they had, Portnoy, or others, would have been absent.
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he just wanted to hold those guys hostage for a bit while he yucked it up with a younger, more 'popular' band.
I could argue the inverse. In fact, you kind of did. Petrucci, et al were basically arguing financial security as well.
And if you want to get a little mean, you could argue reworking I&W is the epitome of them worrying more about a release schedule than recording an album because there is music in them they just have to "put to tape".
And then DT12 is all about capturing "DTisms"? Although I neither love nor hate DT12, I could never come up with one word to describe my emotional perception of the album. But going back and thinking about it in this thread, I think I've come up with the perfect word: homogenized. Illumination Theory is the only song that sounds like semi-new ground for DT.
But the *not feud* *feud* was great for DT's career. It had people like me that had long lost their proginity to DT and now it was just a ritual suddenly coming back on DT related conversation centers to see what was up.
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I'll concur completely with TAC - the last two are considerably better than SC and BCSL. CONSIDERABLY.
I'll say what I said to Mike himself on the PN at Sea cruise... I think the split was best for both of them. For the band, they got to continue doing what 80% of them wanted to - continue working together, continue to keep the brand alive, continue their momentum (hello... two grammy nominations, festival headlining this summer), and not fade into obscurity through a 5 year break. It's not like they have enough mass appeal that 5 years wouldn't have had some kind of impact. Think they would've headlined all these festivals anytime soon if they'd been gone for 5 years?
Mike got to do what he wanted to do... flex his own creative muscle and let those juices flow. If he felt stale, the last 5 years have given him what he wanted (with mixed results)... NM Solo, Transatlantic, Flying Colors AMob, Winery Dogs, PSMS, Bigelf, and a handful of other studio contributions. Not to mention all the touring that went along with those acts. No way he would've been able to do 1/2 of that if he stayed with DT.
Also, let's not forget the positive impact from and for Mike Mangini.
So, was Mike right ... yes - for himself. He wasn't completely right. IMO, the band is in a far better spot now than they could've hoped to have been by "re-starting" right now.
As to the OP, My favorite thing on DTF is when commenters confuse their own personal opinions with the "consensus" of the entire body of DT's fans.
:tup
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What was Mike's reaction when you told him that?
And I'm in the win win camp. DT got to continue and reinvigorate themselves and MP gets to do what he wants to do. Although I think this next album with truly answer if this was for the best. I think 3 albums will be a good measure. My heart is heavily leaning towards it was for the best.
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MP has awesome white hair coming in, I'm really looking forward to letting my hair go white without dyeing it when I get around those ages, I just find it cool.
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I find ADTOE to be fairly bland and uninspired overall, and could do entirely without DT12, and neither album is even better than SC/BCASL, so I'd have loved to see what would have happened if they'd taken a break instead.
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Well the thing we must'nt forget is that the band was in a crucial stage in their carreer at the time. I can imagine he felt that way having been in there for so long, but it would have seriously damaged their carreer at that point had they took the time out.
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The other thing we mustn't forget is that 5 years was a maximum. 5 years would have been too long, but it could/would have been as low as half a year or so if they'd agreed to it, which I think would have been great to revitalize and work on side projects. *cough* JP solo album *cough*
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Agree. One year might have done the trick. But that's all water under the bridge downtown now.
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It would have been great and certainly interesting to see a Dream Theater that continued with Portnoy after a break but as it turned out, I believe it was still win - win for everyone involved after the dust settled.
Anyway, just wanted to drop this in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLRo9RT539k
A lot of you might have watched it already but I think it actually contributes a fair perspective from the man himself regarding some of the speculation on this subject. (Might wanna skip half-way through when he's talking about more recent stuff if you're not interested in the earlier stuff, it's got some fairly interesting trivia in there though).
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As far as I'm concerned, it's a good thing the band didn't take a break. They released A Dramatic turn of events about a year later, which is my 4th favorite Dream Theater album and truly a tremendous piece of work. I also want to point out that I think their live shows have improved quite a bit - the Along for the ride tour featured the best looking stage set in my opinion, which made those concerts the best ones I've seen the band put on. Not to mention the BTFW performance of Illumination theory, which I'd put up there as essential Dream Theater live performance, along with The Spirit carries on from Live Scenes and Octavarium from Score.
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What was Mike's reaction when you told him that?
I forget his exact response/reaction... he kinda shrugged it off... neither really agreeing or disagreeing, but if anything, he more agreed than disagreed. Ultimately (and remember, that was 18 months ago), he was happy with where he was at. IIRC, he'd finally stopped making dumbass statements in the media/interwebz, and accepted - no, embraced - that this was the way things were, and the was they were going to be.
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I do miss Portnoy's touch sometimes, but that is not about the actual music. I just love the Ytsejam stuff, covers, jam sessions, medleys etc. And I thought the production took a turn for the worse. I know people also have problems with the late Portnoy albums in terms of sound, but to me ATOE and DT12's main problems are actually the production (especially ATOE sounds lifeless and distant to me).
However, from DT I got this:
-DT12
-ATOE
-BTFW and a generally fantastic DT12 tour (I attended Amsterdam)
-Happy Holidays
And I love Mike Mangini's work and live performances as well. Different and more technical, but a blast to hear/see as well.
MP was involved in these things I enjoyed very much:
-The Grand Experiment (NM band, combined writing effort) of which I attended a show, which was absolutely great
-Two Flying Colors albums and a nice live DVD
-Winery Dogs and a nice live DVD
-New Transatlantic and, again, a nice live DVD
-Good post-Rev drums on a Avenged Sevenfold album before them jumping the shark for whatever reason
There are few releases featuring MP that I do not enjoy a lot. Not saying the above albums are all his work or anything, but he does often does leave his touch and/or has a nose for quality.
While the latter we would probably still have gotten with DT's break, I am happy we got DT's material along with it. And I am sure MP will continue pushing neat projects and new albums of the bands he is in. Just hope Liquid Tension is one of them. ;D
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Im happy with the way things turned out. A hiatus would not have helped DT. Maybe would have lead to some different music than what we got, but I don't think it would have helped their popularity to take a break. Both albums with MM are great IMO so I have no complaints.
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I do miss Portnoy's touch sometimes, but that is not about the actual music. I just love the Ytsejam stuff, covers, jam sessions, medleys etc. And I thought the production took a turn for the worse. I know people also have problems with the late Portnoy albums in terms of sound, but to me ATOE and DT12's main problems are actually the production (especially ATOE sounds lifeless and distant to me).
However, from DT I got this:
-DT12
-ATOE
-BTFW and a generally fantastic DT12 tour (I attended Amsterdam)
-Happy Holidays
And I love Mike Mangini's work and live performances as well. Different and more technical, but a blast to hear/see as well.
MP was involved in these things I enjoyed very much:
-The Grand Experiment (NM band, combined writing effort) of which I attended a show, which was absolutely great
-Two Flying Colors albums and a nice live DVD
-Winery Dogs and a nice live DVD
-New Transatlantic and, again, a nice live DVD
-Good post-Rev drums on a Avenged Sevenfold album before them jumping the shark for whatever reason
There are few releases featuring MP that I do not enjoy a lot. Not saying the above albums are all his work or anything, but he does often does leave his touch and/or has a nose for quality.
While the latter we would probably still have gotten with DT's break, I am happy we got DT's material along with it. And I am sure MP will continue pushing neat projects and new albums of the bands he is in. Just hope Liquid Tension is one of them. ;D
100% this. We've gotten some incredible music from both sides since the split. I still feel it was the best decision for both parties.
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No way of really knowing.
My belief is that the strained relationship between MP and JLB had reached a point of no return. I don't think an extended break from
each other would have fixed it. They may have taken a long break only to find the dynamics of the relationships were still the same.
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I'll concur completely with TAC - the last two are considerably better than SC and BCSL. CONSIDERABLY.
Ditto. That kinda sums it up for me. IMO, taking a break would have been a mistake simply because I prefer ADTOE and DT12 over SC and BC&SL. Some people might feel the opposite and thats cool, just not me!
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If they took a break, they would be forgotten and trying to gain lost ground.
If they took a break, there would be no Breaking All Illusions, which placed second in the DTF tournament this year.
Did Mike Portnoy sound more refreshed creatively nowadays? I don't hear it.
Nobody is going to forget DT if they had taken a 6 month or year break. Cmon now.
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If they took a break, they would be forgotten and trying to gain lost ground.
If they took a break, there would be no Breaking All Illusions, which placed second in the DTF tournament this year.
Did Mike Portnoy sound more refreshed creatively nowadays? I don't hear it.
Nobody is going to forget DT if they had taken a 6 month or year break. Cmon now.
One year would have been fine, but four or five years would have just been heartbreaking. I can't go that long without new DT music.
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If they took a break, they would be forgotten and trying to gain lost ground.
If they took a break, there would be no Breaking All Illusions, which placed second in the DTF tournament this year.
Did Mike Portnoy sound more refreshed creatively nowadays? I don't hear it.
Nobody is going to forget DT if they had taken a 6 month or year break. Cmon now.
One year would have been fine, but four or five years would have just been heartbreaking. I can't go that long without new DT music.
Agreed, but MP claims he never asked for 5 years. I think even MP might have thought 5 years was suicide. I don't know.
Plenty of other bands have gone that long between albums and made out ok, though.
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I'll concur completely with TAC - the last two are considerably better than SC and BCSL. CONSIDERABLY.
Ditto. That kinda sums it up for me. IMO, taking a break would have been a mistake simply because I prefer ADTOE and DT12 over SC and BC&SL. Some people might feel the opposite and thats cool, just not me!
It's neat how people have opposing views on music like this. I think ADTOE and DT12 are WAY more fresh and creative than SC and BC&SL......and there are plenty of people here who believe the opposite.
For me I have a hard time looking past how ignorant MP was in the wake of him deserting DT. That's what he did. He deserted them in the hopes that Avenged would ask him to stay on as a regular. His tweets/comments at the time when he was not asked by them to stay on were lamenting the fact that he'd felt betrayed and that he knew who his true friends were. I've always loved and still loved the mans drumming but I think he was entirely in the wrong in that situation....it was an ego trip IMO and I'll never be convinced otherwise. I'm glad they've all gotten past it and both sides have been making a living but I think if you had MP alone....and there was no way anyone but you and he would know what he said.....he'd admit he was wrong in leaving DT and putting those guys in that position in the first place. He knows it....we know it....they know it.
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but I think if you had MP alone....and there was no way anyone but you and he would know what he said.....he'd admit he was wrong in leaving DT and putting those guys in that position in the first place. He knows it....we know it....they know it.
I don't think he'd feel that way TODAY. He might have felt that way a year after his decision. In fact when the stuff with A7X unfolded and they didn't want to keep him on he tried to go back but they had already chosen Mangini (though not publicized yet) and spent who knows what talking through lawyers. By then the damage was done.
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I think ADTOE was regarded generally as a big step up from their last Portnoy albums (SC and BC&SL), so what the OP is saying is not entirely true.
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I think ADTOE was regarded generally as a big step up from their last Portnoy albums (SC and BC&SL), so what the OP is saying is not entirely true.
I agree it's a step up from BC&SL, I rank BC&SL near the bottom but I love SC. I saw them 3 times for that tour.
I'm with OP. I think MP was right. I think some time off would have worked miracles. We'll never know now.
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I have to disagree with people here on the idea that a hiatus would have changed anything in their output. DT has a very established (entrenched?) dynamic now, and that wouldn't change just because they're sitting on their hands for a year.
The only upside of a hiatus would have been that JP likely would have released his solo album.
Actually, I changed my mind. A hiatus, just for that reason, would have been good.
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I have to disagree with people here on the idea that a hiatus would have changed anything in their output. DT has a very established (entrenched?) dynamic now, and that wouldn't change just because they're sitting on their hands for a year.
The only upside of a hiatus would have been that JP likely would have released his solo album.
Actually, I changed my mind. A hiatus, just for that reason, would have been good.
I think it would have given everyone a chance to do something else and get out those less-than-stellar ideas out of their heads and reconvene with fresh ideas for what would have been the ADTOE album.
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but I think if you had MP alone....and there was no way anyone but you and he would know what he said.....he'd admit he was wrong in leaving DT and putting those guys in that position in the first place. He knows it....we know it....they know it.
I don't think he'd feel that way TODAY. He might have felt that way a year after his decision. In fact when the stuff with A7X unfolded and they didn't want to keep him on he tried to go back but they had already chosen Mangini (though not publicized yet) and spent who knows what talking through lawyers. By then the damage was done.
I agree completely with this.
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I think ADTOE was regarded generally as a big step up from their last Portnoy albums (SC and BC&SL), so what the OP is saying is not entirely true.
After checking any site I could find with user ratings, on average ADTOE is regarded on par with BCASL, and DT12 lower than both of those, but above SC. Obviously it will vary across different sites, but I couldn't think of a more impartial way than averaging out every site I found with user ratings without introducing bias into the equation.
But the point is on the general internet I believe you'll find the difference in opinion between the RR albums is a lot closer than the impression you'd get from DTF.
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I think ADTOE was regarded generally as a big step up from their last Portnoy albums (SC and BC&SL), so what the OP is saying is not entirely true.
After checking any site I could find with user ratings, on average ADTOE is regarded on par with BCASL, and DT12 lower than both of those, but above SC. Obviously it will vary across different sites, but I couldn't think of a more impartial way than averaging out every site I found with user ratings without introducing bias into the equation.
But the point is on the general internet I believe you'll find the difference in opinion between the RR albums is a lot closer than the impression you'd get from DTF.
Wouldn't be the first time the internet was wrong. :biggrin:
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I think ADTOE was regarded generally as a big step up from their last Portnoy albums (SC and BC&SL), so what the OP is saying is not entirely true.
After checking any site I could find with user ratings, on average ADTOE is regarded on par with BCASL, and DT12 lower than both of those, but above SC. Obviously it will vary across different sites, but I couldn't think of a more impartial way than averaging out every site I found with user ratings without introducing bias into the equation.
But the point is on the general internet I believe you'll find the difference in opinion between the RR albums is a lot closer than the impression you'd get from DTF.
Wouldn't be the first time the internet was wrong. :biggrin:
It also wouldn't be the first time DTF was wrong. :biggrin:
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I think ADTOE was regarded generally as a big step up from their last Portnoy albums (SC and BC&SL), so what the OP is saying is not entirely true.
After checking any site I could find with user ratings, on average ADTOE is regarded on par with BCASL, and DT12 lower than both of those, but above SC. Obviously it will vary across different sites, but I couldn't think of a more impartial way than averaging out every site I found with user ratings without introducing bias into the equation.
But the point is on the general internet I believe you'll find the difference in opinion between the RR albums is a lot closer than the impression you'd get from DTF.
Wouldn't be the first time the internet was wrong. :biggrin:
It also wouldn't be the first time DTF was wrong. :biggrin:
Well played sir.
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Portnoy was wrong.
I don't like DT12, but I love ADTOE.
And DT13's gonna be a blast. Mark my words.
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And DT13's gonna be a blast. Mark my words.
Marking them so I can come back and let you know how wrong you are.
:corn
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And DT13's gonna be a blast. Mark my words.
Marking them so I can come back and let you know how wrong you are.
:corn
Gheez, don't be so optimistic :lol
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Gheez, don't be so optimistic :lol
The last 3 especially have been a real low point in their career for me. Easily the least listened to albums in their catalog.
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I hear ya, I personally disagree, but its all good. Regardless, approaching the new record with no expectation rather than the expectation that you won't enjoy it might actually help you to enjoy it more.
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I hear ya, I personally disagree, but its all good. Regardless, approaching the new record with no expectation rather than the expectation that you won't enjoy it might actually help you to enjoy it more.
Nah. The preconceived notion it's gonna stink helps them out (for me) in reality. If they put out a good album I'll be extra pumped for it after a few listens. If it's a stinker I'll just have been right ;)
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Haha understood :lol
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Yes and no.
For starters, I think it's worth pointing out that MP has recently stated that he did not specifically ask for a five year hiatus. As has previously stated by others in this thread it just as easily could have been six months to a year if he'd been able to convince the other guys.
When I say yes and no, I mean yes it's a good thing because MP has had the freedom to do lots of different projects he would never have had the opportunity to do otherwise and because he got the break he desired and managed to avoid becoming completely burnt out as he was apparently in danger of becoming, and also because the others have pretty much risen to the challenge and managed to carry on the momentum with two successful albums and two world tours, as well as a festival headlining tour this summer.
However. I cannot deny that some of the old magic has simply been lost. It may be stating the obvious but this latest incarnation of the band is not the same as it once was. They're aren't the same band I fell in love with over 10 years ago now. They're still my favourite of all time by some margin but I just don't feel the same excitement about their new music or going to their shows as I did a few years ago - and that's definitely not just a case of myself growing older and tastes changing, because I still love the SFAM-8V era albums just as much as I always did. The last two albums, whilst I really enjoy certain songs and passages, as whole albums they just don't do it for me personally. So there is quite a big part of me that will always wonder what might have been if the guys had agreed on a six months to one year. Would they have then reconvened fresh, energised and inspired and write an album that is truly worthy to be mentioned alongside their very greatest efforts?
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Portnoy was right about needing a break, and right that the band needed a change.
Unfortunately, the change they needed was him leaving.
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For the record, do we actually know how long a break MP wanted to take when he originally brought it up to the guys? I thought I remembered (from back when it happened) that he initially asked for a 5 year break. The guys thought that was too long and said no, so MP quit. DT then moved on and hired MM and after that, MP came back to them and said it didn't have to be 5 years, it could be less. But at that point, the band had already committed to MM.
Am I remembering this totally wrong? It seems like people in this thread are saying because MP said after the fact he didn't ask for 5 years, he clearly would have been cool with a 1 year break or less... First of all, of course MP would say that, it is the victim role and it passes blame to the other guys, which MP kinda has a history of doing. Second, I thought when he said that he was referencing his willingness after the band hired MM to take less of a break.
Like I said, I might be remembering this stuff all wrong...?
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I think I should be clear: at no point in my original post did I say whether or not I think Dream Theater would be better or worse off if they had taken the break. I'm really just interested in discussing the idea. But it seems like just about everyone here is more interested in mocking the very idea that Dream Theater could possibly be better off if they had taken time off, rather than having a reasoned discussion on the topic.
Sorry I brought it up.
You might have gotten a better response if your initial post was not filled with incorrect assumptions about the fan consensus. But even so, nobody is attacking you, so there's no point in being bent out of shape simply because people disagree with you.
As for me, I strongly disagree with your proposition. Many of the reasons why have already been stated by others, but I think Chad's post best summed up how I feel on the subject. But another aspect that needs to be pointed out is that DT were losing a bit of momentum already during the BCSL album and tour cycle. Part of it was an industry and economy thing. People were just spending less on albums and concert tickets during that time period. As a result, DT toured less during that time. Remember--they did not even do a proper U.S. headlining tour for BCSL. They only did Prog Nation. Now factor in the fact that DT is not a huge household name. They are a relatively obscure band with a loyal following. They were already losing momentum. Taking a hiatus for a few years would have really hindered their ability to get back up and running again at a decent level of popularity. They make a good living now playing medium-sized theaters. As an older band, if they had to scale down and play small theaters and clubs, I think it would be tough for them to get by. So factor all of that into the equation as well.
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It's not weird that you remember it that way because that's kinda the rumour that has been spread about the topic, but I don't think they ever shared this information to the public.
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For the record, do we actually know how long a break MP wanted to take when he originally brought it up to the guys? I thought I remembered (from back when it happened) that he initially asked for a 5 year break. The guys thought that was too long and said no, so MP quit. DT then moved on and hired MM and after that, MP came back to them and said it didn't have to be 5 years, it could be less. But at that point, the band had already committed to MM.
Am I remembering this totally wrong? It seems like people in this thread are saying because MP said after the fact he didn't ask for 5 years, he clearly would have been cool with a 1 year break or less... First of all, of course MP would say that, it is the victim role and it passes blame to the other guys, which MP kinda has a history of doing. Second, I thought when he said that he was referencing his willingness after the band hired MM to take less of a break.
Like I said, I might be remembering this stuff all wrong...?
No, you are remembering it exactly right. But I am not sure Mike was "locked" into 5 years. It has sounded to me like he threw a number out there initially that made sense to him, but that he was willing to be flexible and do something a bit shorter if that was the consensus, but that the band did not want to take ANY extended break at all (which I agree with), which was not acceptable to Mike.
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For the record, do we actually know how long a break MP wanted to take when he originally brought it up to the guys? I thought I remembered (from back when it happened) that he initially asked for a 5 year break. The guys thought that was too long and said no, so MP quit. DT then moved on and hired MM and after that, MP came back to them and said it didn't have to be 5 years, it could be less. But at that point, the band had already committed to MM.
Am I remembering this totally wrong? It seems like people in this thread are saying because MP said after the fact he didn't ask for 5 years, he clearly would have been cool with a 1 year break or less... First of all, of course MP would say that, it is the victim role and it passes blame to the other guys, which MP kinda has a history of doing. Second, I thought when he said that he was referencing his willingness after the band hired MM to take less of a break.
Like I said, I might be remembering this stuff all wrong...?
No, you are remembering it exactly right. But I am not sure Mike was "locked" into 5 years. It has sounded to me like he threw a number out there initially that made sense to him, but that he was willing to be flexible and do something a bit shorter if that was the consensus, but that the band did not want to take ANY extended break at all (which I agree with), which was not acceptable to Mike.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. That's pretty much what I thought, but I was reading through this thread and starting second guessing myself based on some of these comments.
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The last 2 albums got me back on board in terms of genuine interest in new releases after a long period of "passing interest".
me too
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For the record, do we actually know how long a break MP wanted to take when he originally brought it up to the guys? I thought I remembered (from back when it happened) that he initially asked for a 5 year break. The guys thought that was too long and said no, so MP quit. DT then moved on and hired MM and after that, MP came back to them and said it didn't have to be 5 years, it could be less. But at that point, the band had already committed to MM.
Am I remembering this totally wrong? It seems like people in this thread are saying because MP said after the fact he didn't ask for 5 years, he clearly would have been cool with a 1 year break or less... First of all, of course MP would say that, it is the victim role and it passes blame to the other guys, which MP kinda has a history of doing. Second, I thought when he said that he was referencing his willingness after the band hired MM to take less of a break.
Like I said, I might be remembering this stuff all wrong...?
No, you are remembering it exactly right. But I am not sure Mike was "locked" into 5 years. It has sounded to me like he threw a number out there initially that made sense to him, but that he was willing to be flexible and do something a bit shorter if that was the consensus, but that the band did not want to take ANY extended break at all (which I agree with), which was not acceptable to Mike.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. That's pretty much what I thought, but I was reading through this thread and starting second guessing myself based on some of these comments.
I believe in interviews right after the split, it was clarified that at first he wanted to take an indefinite hiatus. The idea was they would take a break and then when they all felt ready to get going again, they would get together whether it was 2 years or 4 years. Only problem was, nobody else wanted any hiatus but in order to hear him out they were asking him what was the maximum time frame. I believe thats when MP probably said 5 years.
It is also interesting to note that MP even threw out the idea of getting a session drummer or doing a few short tours over the next few years to tide the DT guys over.
Anyway, I'm going to try to find the interview.
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Portnoy was wrong, but I think that the events ended up being the best for the band. ADTOE and DT12 are pretty solid, and I don't think things would've been better with MP around (even without the break or hiatus he wanted). If there was a break, MP would be involved with all the projects he is anyway, and IMO he is not creating anything I haven't heard from him before (fills, grooves and stuff).
DT is much more powerful and fresh now with MM.
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Portnoy was wrong, but I think that the events ended up being the best for the band. ADTOE and DT12 are pretty solid, and I don't think things would've been better with MP around (even without the break or hiatus he wanted). If there was a break, MP would be involved with all the projects he is anyway, and IMO he is not creating anything I haven't heard from him before (fills, grooves and stuff).
DT is much more powerful and fresh now with MM.
:iagree:
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As far as I'm concerned, it's a good thing the band didn't take a break. They released A Dramatic turn of events about a year later, which is my 4th favorite Dream Theater album and truly a tremendous piece of work. I also want to point out that I think their live shows have improved quite a bit - the Along for the ride tour featured the best looking stage set in my opinion, which made those concerts the best ones I've seen the band put on.
This, basically.
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Despite my significant issues with the proselytising tone of certain lyrics on DT12 meaning I've never bought it and don't intend to, as far as I'm concerned ADTOE is their best work since SFaM, and despite my issues with DT12 that album at least sounds like all members of the band had the creative blinkers off.
Tbh, I would have rather MP had just taken more of a back seat post-BC&SL (at least for a few albums) and stopped forcing a direction to their albums rather than just letting the creative process run freely.
As far as I'm concerned MP was wrong, the band did not need a hiatus to recharge, they just needed him to step away from the helm and let the boat sail freely. Unfortunately he ended up jumping overboard whilst they sailed away.
For starters, I think it's worth pointing out that MP has recently stated that he did not specifically ask for a five year hiatus. As has previously stated by others in this thread it just as easily could have been six months to a year if he'd been able to convince the other guys.
For starters, he asked for an indefinite hiatus (IIRC). Since that fundamentally wasn't acceptable to the rest of the band they tried to pin him down to a specific length of time, which is when the five year time span was purportedly mentioned.
Also, let's not forget that when MP proposed the hiatus he was doing it having been out on an arena tour with A7X and I'm betting the rest of DT assumed the same that many of us did: MP was asking them to suspend their careers so he could hedge his bets in case A7X didn't work out and in the mean time their main source of income would dry up. Regardless of how MP may try and spin it now, that's how it looked at the time and still looks now.
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Also, let's not forget that when MP proposed the hiatus he was doing it having been out on an arena tour with A7X and I'm betting the rest of DT assumed the same that many of us did: MP was asking them to suspend their careers so he could hedge his bets in case A7X didn't work out and in the mean time their main source of income would dry up. Regardless of how MP may try and spin it now, that's how it looked at the time and still looks now.
This is exactly how I felt when this went down, and then when A7Z released him, he wanted back in with DT.
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
For what it's worth, I agree with that assessment. Certainly not bad, but if I needed to reach for a DT album to blow someone's socks off, it isn't one of those two.
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He was deadly wrong.
Portnoy couldn't even create an ending to I&W intro song, MM could give OTBA an ending.
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https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43404.msg1935862#msg1935862 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=43404.msg1935862#msg1935862)
DTF ranks ADTOE #5, ahead of every MP album after SDOIT.
DTF ranks DT12 #9, ahead of the last two MP albums and WDADU.
Given that the fans here tend to like most or all of DT's albums, I don't think I would consider a rank of #6 or #7 to be an "average" effort.
Huh? There are 12 albums. Understanding that a) there is no math that directly quantifies this, and b) I am not at all confusing "median" and "mean" (average), just using both concepts, I'm not at all sure how it's not reasonable to assume a rank of 9 out of 12 isn't at least "average". And same for "5".
Look, it's all subjective, but any one person's opinion is useless; it is irrelevant. So to say "I think it's their best!" is a waste of bandwidth. The best we have is the various means of drawing a consensus, and I think the OP is right on the mark, or at least reasonable for thinking so.
I also note that Mike didn't say "5 years", or if he did, he backed away from it to be flexible (which should be lauded, not ridiculed) and since I think the band lost a LOT when he left, if not musically then in terms of "clubhouse" or band management, I think he was right. Dream Theater was a special, almost unique band for me when he was there, now they are merely a very good band out of many very good bands I listen to. Still, barely, a first day buy, but honestly, I probably will never see them live again (unless there is some special event or something different than the same old same old of the last two tours and the looks of the current tour says "not this time").
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Aah
I... I'm sorry, wrong post lol.
Anyway.
Speaking seriously, I agree with all those who said that the split ended up being for the best for both parts. It was what MP needed and what DT needed.
I think they'll go higher with the new album considering that they have evolved a lot in the last few years.
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I think he was correct in a certain way. If we would have received BC&SL 2.0 I probably would have lost interest completely. So a change was needed. Mike wasn't wrong.
That being said, I agree with this:
Tbh, I would have rather MP had just taken more of a back seat post-BC&SL (at least for a few albums) and stopped forcing a direction to their albums rather than just letting the creative process run freely.
As far as I'm concerned MP was wrong, the band did not need a hiatus to recharge, they just needed him to step away from the helm and let the boat sail freely. Unfortunately he ended up jumping overboard whilst they sailed away.
I think ADToE is top notch and DT12 is above average, so that's all good.
I really wish I could personally get into MP's projects more but they just don't resonate with me. Still, he seems happy so that's all good too.
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Had the s/t come out in 2011 and we never got ADTOE, I'd have agreed with Portnoy. But ADTOE proves to me that they can still put out great things. Unless DT13 says otherwise, I'm just going to consider DT12 a momentary fumble.
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I have mixed feelings on the whole thing. While I wasn't completely happy with the metal direction that the last 2 albums were taking (especially the pseudo-cookie monster vocals), I still enjoyed the albums a lot (BCaSL more so, SC less so). And while I'm glad that DT's still continuing to release albums, there's still something missing. While JP and JR were the main source of raw musical ideas, MP helped arrange them besides his own ideas. I also think it was good having him there in a leadership role alongside JP, instead of JP just directing everything on his own now. It's also a bit of a bummer that MM feels that he can't suggest all the ideas he has when writing, which I think stifles the creativity of the writing and perhaps taking the band into some new directions that they hadn't gone before (which is one of the benefits of having a change in the lineup).
With everything MP's done since, for me it's been a mixed bag - while I enjoy Transatlantic, Flying Colors, PSMS and to a lesser degree The Winery Dogs, none of them is anywhere near as appealing to me as DT has been. Nevermind all the extras that MP brought to the table for the fans (official bootlegs, rotating setlists, covers, regular contact/updates, etc). Lastly, I'm sad to see the relationships that he had with the other band members (save JR) breakdown - while that aspect doesn't affect me personally, I do know how it feels to lose a friendship with someone I used to be close to for many years and how I miss them, even if we've both moved on with our lives.
Just to clarify regarding what MP proposed regarding the hiatus, originally it was to be indefinite. When pushed for a specific amount of time (from the other guys), MP suggested 5 years. When that was met with resistance, he suggested 3 years, then 2 years, then 1.5 years, then 1 year and finally suggested them to use a temporary replacement for the next album/tour cycle - all of which were rejected. He was given the ultimatum of going with them into the studio that following January or leaving the band. This is my own personal speculation, but had MP originally suggested a smaller amount of time, like 1 to 2 years, maybe they would've been more willing to consider. But I can imagine them worrying that at the end of the agreed upon hiatus, he might not be ready to return to DT and may have pushed for more time (thereby getting his original wish) - if that were the case, I can't say I blame them.
I do hope that one day they'll be able to patch things up at least personally. But I do hope that one day MP will be back with DT again. I'm not holding my breath for it to happen, nor do I expect it to (unlike when the breakup first happen), but it is merely a wish I have.
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I do hope that one day they'll be able to patch things up at least personally. But I do hope that one day MP will be back with DT again. I'm not holding my breath for it to happen, nor do I expect it to (unlike when the breakup first happen), but it is merely a wish I have.
It could have worked with an amicable hiatus. But now, even if MP returned, the dynamic would be different.
This third post-DT release might be make or break for me as far as me following DT closely as opposed to just buying their new albums on a casual basis. My bias for DT had me liking ADToE and DT12, but time has left me putting them at the bottom of my DT album rotation. They strike me as lateral moves as opposed to "progressive".
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It's also a bit of a bummer that MM feels that he can't suggest all the ideas he has when writing, which I think stifles the creativity of the writing and perhaps taking the band into some new directions that they hadn't gone before (which is one of the benefits of having a change in the lineup).
Thats not my interpretation of what MM said. I thought he basically said he doesn't feel comfortable considering himself a full writing partner and because of that he doesn't contribute that much. Doesn't mean he doesn't contribute anything, just that he takes a backseat and is more careful about inserting himself into the process unless he feels strongly about something.
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Thats not my interpretation of what MM said. I thought he basically said he doesn't feel comfortable considering himself a full writing partner
But why does he feel that way? It can only be that he doesn't believe in himself or that he doesn't think the band fully believes in his songwriting ability.
For a band that is having a tough time breaking out of past patterns, the new member would obviously be the the biggest asset.
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Thats not my interpretation of what MM said. I thought he basically said he doesn't feel comfortable considering himself a full writing partner
But why does he feel that way? It can only be that he doesn't believe in himself or that he doesn't think the band fully believes in his songwriting ability.
For a band that is having a tough time breaking out of past patterns, the new member would obviously be the the biggest asset.
Or option C: He is a drummer that doesn't have a ton of experience building melodies and harmonies, etc. I also don't think that DT is having a tough time breaking out of past patterns.
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But why does he feel that way? It can only be that he doesn't believe in himself or that he doesn't think the band fully believes in his songwriting ability.
Or.. novel idea. He doesn't think he's been with the band long enough to offer much more than some occasional advice. He's humble, but very aware of his skill set.
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It could have worked with an amicable hiatus. But now, even if MP returned, the dynamic would be different.
It takes two to tango, so while MP may have been the one to initiate the breakup and was certainly a major part of why the friendships fell apart, you can be sure that the rest of the band played a role as well - they just were much better at keeping their mouths shut. Had things been perfectly amicable had MP not opened his mouth, I'd still question how the friendships would be today as soon as the issue of settling up the finances came into play. You can be sure that MP rightfully deserved a huge cut and JP, being the business man of the group, wasn't willing to just give up a huge wad of cash without a fight.
It's also a bit of a bummer that MM feels that he can't suggest all the ideas he has when writing, which I think stifles the creativity of the writing and perhaps taking the band into some new directions that they hadn't gone before (which is one of the benefits of having a change in the lineup).
Thats not my interpretation of what MM said. I thought he basically said he doesn't feel comfortable considering himself a full writing partner and because of that he doesn't contribute that much. Doesn't mean he doesn't contribute anything, just that he takes a backseat and is more careful about inserting himself into the process unless he feels strongly about something.
Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.
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Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.
And this is right here the reason that I think Minnemann would have been a better choice (in my opinion). Marco doesn't shy away from writing and composing and IIRC, he plays all of the instruments in his solo outings. The guy just keeps writing and releasing solo albums and collaborations (The Aristocrats, LMR, his solo stuff, which is quite extensive). I think Marco would have pushed DT a little bit of out their comfort zone.
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It takes two to tango, so while MP may have been the one to initiate the breakup and was certainly a major part of why the friendships fell apart, you can be sure that the rest of the band played a role as well - they just were much better at keeping their mouths shut.
This was the difference for me in where I fell as far as 'what side' I'm on. MP was a complete :censored after he didn't get ANY of his ways. He didn't get the hiatus...he didn't get to keep drumming for AX7 and he didn't get to come back to the band when it all blew up in his face. Rather than put his ego aside and admit he was wrong right when it happen (could have actually worked for him to get back in the band) he chose to be an ignorant :censored for the next year or so. Other than JLB defending himself (and DT) against some comment MP made.....those guys kept their mouths shut and stayed respectful about the whole thing. I lost near most of any 'respect' I had for MP due to his actions/comments in the wake of the break up. I still dig the guys drumming and buy his music (save Adrenaline Mob :tdwn) but I used to hold him in high regard (for whatever reason)....not so much anymore.
as far as the rest of the DT members 'playing a role', other than an outright non agreement to take a hiatus there is nothing that has been made public that indicates they did anything to 'drive' MP away.
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And this is right here the reason that I think Minnemann would have been a better choice (in my opinion).
I was going to respond, but I literally don't gain an ounce of joy discussing this subject, so I'm gonna try to leave this thread and try not to get tempted back in. Observing and drawing conclusions on band relationships might be inevitable in one's mind, but talking about it seems pointless in the end.
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It's also a bit of a bummer that MM feels that he can't suggest all the ideas he has when writing, which I think stifles the creativity of the writing and perhaps taking the band into some new directions that they hadn't gone before (which is one of the benefits of having a change in the lineup).
Thats not my interpretation of what MM said. I thought he basically said he doesn't feel comfortable considering himself a full writing partner and because of that he doesn't contribute that much. Doesn't mean he doesn't contribute anything, just that he takes a backseat and is more careful about inserting himself into the process unless he feels strongly about something.
Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.
No, there's not a problem. Just because a band gets a new member that does not maintain the previous lineups dynamics does not mean its a problem. That would be like saying it is a problem that Dio actually wrote lyrics in Black Sabbath whereas Ozzy had Geezer write lyrics for him. Both lineups were awesome. Some people prefer one lineup over the other perhaps because of the dynamics, but that change does not mean it is a problem in any way.
Some drummers (i.e.: most) actually prefer to really focus on the drumming. Sure you've got instances of a Lee Kerslake stepping in to create some vocal melodies, or like the example below a Marco Minnemann taking a big role, but those are the exception rather than the rule.
And this is right here the reason that I think Minnemann would have been a better choice (in my opinion). Marco doesn't shy away from writing and composing and IIRC, he plays all of the instruments in his solo outings. The guy just keeps writing and releasing solo albums and collaborations (The Aristocrats, LMR, his solo stuff, which is quite extensive). I think Marco would have pushed DT a little bit of out their comfort zone.
I've heard some of Marco's stuff and if he would have became the drummer and geared it more in that direction then all I can say is thank god they went with Mangini.
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And this is right here the reason that I think Minnemann would have been a better choice (in my opinion).
I was going to respond, but I literally don't gain an ounce of joy discussing this subject, so I'm gonna try to leave this thread and try not to get tempted back in. Observing and drawing conclusions on band relationships might be inevitable in one's mind, but talking about it seems pointless in the end.
And I totally agree. I thought about it several times before pressing the post button. I know the subject has been brought up many many times. Again, I like Mangini's drumming. And I like the fact the he is a very genuine person and technically, he's very gifted. I wasn't trying to bash the Genie. Just tried to make a point.
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I've heard some of Marco's stuff and if he would have became the drummer and geared it more in that direction then all I can say is thank god they went with Mangini.
I didn't say Marco's stuff would trickle in into DT. I said that he has a lot more experience in writing and composing than Mangini. Personally, I don't like Marco's solo stuff, but I love the Aristocrats and love LMR.
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And ELL OH ELL at the idea that ADTOE borrows the arrangements from Images & Words and implies that that's a bad thing :lol
How many bands have songs with identical structures ?
This. Big time. It was only through people pointing it out on here that I even noticed the structural "issues".
ADTOE remains a very refreshing listen, with all the "goosebumps" moments (and there are many) still doing it for me, nearly 4 years on.
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Just tried to make a point.
A point of which I basically agree. But it was nothing you said. It was just the burnout of wondering why I let myself get caught up in this. It is so low on my priorities of life that it only registers when I log into a Dream Theater conversation. I literally never think of it outside a DT community discussion. And any statement gets boiled down to you either being a DT fanboy or DT hater, so we should all just post "I hate DT" or "I love DT" just so we can get to the last page of the book faster.
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And as far as the OP goes, I miss the behind the scenes from the band, the official bootlegs, the short vids from the studio, the making of's, etc...That's what made DT more exciting. But to some extent, DT was very stale creatively with MP as "musical director". ADTOE and DT12 were very refreshing both lyrically and musically (aside from the sonic issues).
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And as far as the OP goes, I miss the behind the scenes from the band, the official bootlegs, the short vids from the studio, the making of's, etc...That's what made DT more exciting. But to some extent, DT was very stale creatively with MP as "musical director". ADTOE and DT12 were very refreshing both lyrically and musically (aside from the sonic issues).
Agreed. I almost wonder at times if the band is better off now, vs. then. I mean, I like the music much more of the last two albums vs. the last two MP albums. SC, despite me liking ITPOE a whole lot, and a couple of other songs and parts are solid, is by far to me their worst album ever. TDEN is their worst song ever for me, and is really a microcosm of what I perceived to be the major problem. MP gutted the verses, did lead vocals basically, and they crammed an instrumental section in. And lets have JR noodle over one of the more unique DT sections.
This has all already been said probably- what was lost? As you mentioned, the behind the scenes stuff and bootlegs. Going further, for better or for worse, the direct contact with the fans. The more rotating setlists, and concerts NOT being on rails. The setlist was verbatim for each show last tour, no 2 to 3 set rotation. The backing vocals are canned and weak, where outside of the tough guy vocals, MP I feel improved as a backing vocalist. Backing is key, because he lost it a bit when he was not remembering that. I cannot say the visuals and lights have become better, which one would think would be the case with concerts on rails. ToT to me was really the pinnacle of that. The commentary stuff seems long gone too. That was an initial thing that pulled me into the band, the LSFNY commentary was cool.
I appreciate JM getting a bit more into the picture. At this point, I cannot really say the band is that much better off without MP.
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In some respects, I agree that a bit of the excitement regarding behind the scenes stuff isn't the same. No one in the band now hypes up upcoming album the way Portnoy did, but on the flip side, I was one who was sick and tired of him being the face of the band. Nearly every interview, whether it be about a new album or a tour, was going to have to Mike Portnoy, and he was going to dominate the conversation. That got old really fast. Remember the awesome outtakes of JLB and JP cutting up from a while back? That never would have happened with Portnoy in the band. Plus, the last two albums are, IMO, much better than the last four albums they did with Mike Portnoy, so while they aren't about to top their early material, which happened a long time ago now, they turned the musical ship around once Mangini joined the band.
It takes two to tango, so while MP may have been the one to initiate the breakup and was certainly a major part of why the friendships fell apart, you can be sure that the rest of the band played a role as well - they just were much better at keeping their mouths shut.
This was the difference for me in where I fell as far as 'what side' I'm on. MP was a complete :censored after he didn't get ANY of his ways. He didn't get the hiatus...he didn't get to keep drumming for AX7 and he didn't get to come back to the band when it all blew up in his face. Rather than put his ego aside and admit he was wrong right when it happen (could have actually worked for him to get back in the band) he chose to be an ignorant :censored for the next year or so. Other than JLB defending himself (and DT) against some comment MP made.....those guys kept their mouths shut and stayed respectful about the whole thing. I lost near most of any 'respect' I had for MP due to his actions/comments in the wake of the break up. I still dig the guys drumming and buy his music (save Adrenaline Mob :tdwn) but I used to hold him in high regard (for whatever reason)....not so much anymore.
as far as the rest of the DT members 'playing a role', other than an outright non agreement to take a hiatus there is nothing that has been made public that indicates they did anything to 'drive' MP away.
Well said. :tup :tup
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But let's not forget that DT really made a stand here. IMO they called his bluff, and I'm sorry, they were relieved to see him go.
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^ Yup. Portnoy assumed that he had control of the band and when he realised he didn't he had a massive tantrum.
Then he assumed he'd be the full time member of AX7 and when he blabbed too much in the press and got let go - he had another massive tantrum.
I couldn't decide whether his constant social media outbursts were pathetic or comical.
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I was never bothered by MP's ego.
Being a long time Nightwish fan, I think he pales in comparison to Tuomas Holopainen, lol, talk about being the "face"
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While I am happy to see DT still going strong after the break-up, I am still waiting for MP to actually get the needed creative boost he was hoping to get with the "break". I am a Mangini fanboy, but Portnoy is still one of my favorites. Awake remains my favorite drumming in a full album. I'm saddened that despite going from one project to another, MP's drumming still sounds the same as it did back in ToT, which for me is the last time I got to hear something new from by MP. Even when he tries a different genre, like thrash metal, it doesn't sound like MP drumming thrash metal, but rather thrash metal with a signature MP drumming supporting it.
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In some respects, I agree that a bit of the excitement regarding behind the scenes stuff isn't the same. No one in the band now hypes up upcoming album the way Portnoy did, but on the flip side, I was one who was sick and tired of him being the face of the band. Nearly every interview, whether it be about a new album or a tour, was going to have to Mike Portnoy, and he was going to dominate the conversation. That got old really fast.
Or on the behind the scenes footage we did get involved MP making a face at the camera about every 2 minutes. That also got old fast.
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I was never bothered by MP's ego.
I'm really not sure how big his ego really is. I think his insecurity is why he craves so much attention and always needs to be complimented and praised, while being so defensive over the slightest bit of criticism. A totally secure person does not fly off the handle at criticism the way he does. So yeah, I don't think his ego is that big so much as his insecurities get the best of him, resulting in the way he often acts out. Not surprisingly, he almost never seems to act out when around Neal Morse, obviously because Neal is more or less his musical brother and he is probably so comfortable around him that his insecurities do not get the best of him in that circumstance.
Yep, this is my Psych degree talking now. :lol :lol
In some respects, I agree that a bit of the excitement regarding behind the scenes stuff isn't the same. No one in the band now hypes up upcoming album the way Portnoy did, but on the flip side, I was one who was sick and tired of him being the face of the band. Nearly every interview, whether it be about a new album or a tour, was going to have to Mike Portnoy, and he was going to dominate the conversation. That got old really fast.
Or on the behind the scenes footage we did get involved MP making a face at the camera about every 2 minutes. That also got old fast.
Agreed. The making of Systematic Chaos was the topper (or bottomer :lol) in that regard.
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What would be exceedingly cool would be of they just let a camera running during the whole recording, and then choose one song off the new album and document its evolution, from writing to recording to mixing to mastering.
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A) Why MP was right.......
1. The band has become stale and rather formulaic on the 2 most recent cd's. Neither are "bad", but neither are "great" either and both are only slight improvements from Systematic Chaos & Black Clouds.
2. From my eyes, the band seems to be just "going through the motions" on stage.
3. It is SO OBVIOUS, that their following has decreased, especially live and double especially in North America.
B) Why MP was wrong.......
1. Five years (for a band like Dream Theater) would have been a death knell.
2. IMO, the "personal issues" (James' feelings of being in the background & John Myung's introverted ways most likely would NOT have changed anyway)
I can see both sides.
I would have liked to see an 18 month break (JP, JLB & MP could've done whatever they wanted as far as side projects and tours). Then get back together with the intention of TOPPING SFAM! I really believe it could've happened.
Just my 2 cents.
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3. It is SO OBVIOUS, that their following has decreased, especially live and double especially in North America.
This is so not true. Their numbers are relatively consistent. The key exception being a rare and quite odd itinerary that put them in Ohio 3 times in a relatively short period of time which is not a strong market to begin with. I think at one show they only brought in 700 but that was basically due to over saturation. They would have had similar numbers in almost any state maybe with the exception of California. Otherwise there is no evidence that their following has decreased.
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At least here in Mexico, their popularity has increased considerably after his departure. ADTOE was highly publicized here at northern Mexico and the 2011 world tour had many more people than any of the previous MP shows.
The band opened to a very large amount of new fans after 2010 and now they're the first band many people name once someone says "Prog", along with BTB&M
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Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.
I agree. By third album he should feel comfortable to throw in any ideas without feeling like he's not a 100% contributing member.
On ADTOE he wasn't around for the writing and had just joined, so that was closer to a session drummer role, on DT12 it was his first time as part of the writing process so he was still feeling it out, but by now he's comfortable enough with the band where he shouldn't have any inhibitions.
He's not going to fill in for the same areas as Portnoy, but he has his own areas of knowledge and talent that could add something new.
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From my view, I think MM's presence in the writing is already felt in the self-titled album, especially in the songs Surrender to Reason, Enigma Machine and Illumination Theory where you hear sections where the instruments go in seemingly different directions but syncing up in the end. I don't know if it's MM's direct contribution or whether the other guys are writing differently because of MM's skill of using big numbers in patterns.
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Could DT become much bigger than what they are now (or in the Octavarium/SC era)?
No.
Have they been able to maintain that fanbase in these years without MP?
Mostly, yes.
Have been ADTOE and DT12 better, or at least on par, received than SC and BC&SL?
Generally, yes.
So, no, he was not.
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For the people saying their popularity is less than it was with MP (whatever era)...
(https://replygif.net/i/776.gif)
Remind me again when they got their grammy nominations? Oh wait, never mind... I remember now. Also, when did they headline the major festivals like this?
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1610961_10152868549927181_4702345724585369567_n.jpg?oh=d44655e8f1c85a84fff730d66b90c49e&oe=563AE0F7)
Oh wait, never mind.... I remember now.
And headlining WOA, true metal stage... when was that again? Oh wait, never mind... I remember now.
Though here's the thing... it wasn't about MP that drove their popularity (up or down), it really was RoadRunner. Look at how their albums have charted on release. BCSL, ADTOE, and DT12 all charted in the Top with Billboard. None of their other albums did that. So, MPs departure didn't have any negative effect on their popularity. And given my above statements, I'd say it was the exact opposite, BCSL's opening chart position notwithstanding.
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Remind me again when they got their grammy nominations? Oh wait, never mind... I remember now.
Quite frankly, while those nominations came up with MM, it came from their established history. I'd even wager MP's leaving gave them a higher profile so that the Grammy people finally decided to nominate them.
Also, when did they headline the major festivals like this?
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1610961_10152868549927181_4702345724585369567_n.jpg?oh=d44655e8f1c85a84fff730d66b90c49e&oe=563AE0F7)
Oh wait, never mind.... I remember now.
And headlining WOA, true metal stage... when was that again? Oh wait, never mind... I remember now.
Though here's the thing... it wasn't about MP that drove their popularity (up or down), it really was RoadRunner. Look at how their albums have charted on release. BCSL, ADTOE, and DT12 all charted in the Top with Billboard. None of their other albums did that. So, MPs departure didn't have any negative effect on their popularity. And given my above statements, I'd say it was the exact opposite, BCSL's opening chart position notwithstanding.
Just because they're headlining a festival doesn't mean all that much. Festivals are not about individual bands. I'd say the real proof either way is gonna be in looking at the venues and attendances for their own headlining shows (in other words, not festivals).
There is no doubt that Roadrunner has done an amazing job with promoting DT. It's probably one of the biggest reasons why they re-signed with them after they completed their 3 album deal. But that doesn't mean that their popularity may not have fallen, at least to some extent. I'm not gonna rehash the whole discussion, but here's an interesting thread talking about this very topic here:
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44162.35
Make of that what you will. In the end, I think this next tour will be very telling to see if DT is in fact increasing, maintaining or losing their fanbase.
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My belief is that the strained relationship between MP and JLB had reached a point of no return. I don't think an extended break from
each other would have fixed it. They may have taken a long break only to find the dynamics of the relationships were still the same.
THIS is what I think of whenever the thought of re-unification, or the break issue in general is discussed. Now, of course I don't know shit when it comes to how interpersonal band relationships really were. Maybe some others here are more in the know? What I perceived, from interviews and comments, was that things were really not good between MP and JLB. Also, it seemed that MP had issues with JM too. IF things were as bad as that, then I doubt any amount of break time would solve anything long term. I believe that if MP didn't leave, the band wouldn't have survived long in the form it was in.
Like many, I have pros and cons with MP leaving.
Pros
1. The band seemed to breath a huge sigh of relief after his departure. Could be just my perception, but that's what I saw
2. It seemed like JLB felt he could be a true Frontman without supervision or critique, again...my perception.
3. The 2 post MP albums were MUCH better than SC and BCSL, IMHO
4. I feel the rebirth of JM was initiated to some degree.
5. The guys seemed happier on stage, especially for ADTOE tour, then they had in the last few MP tours
Cons
1. While I love the machine that MM is, I do miss the "groove" or feeling that MP had and now seems lacking a bit in the last 2 albums.
2. I miss the rotating setlist. That was always one of those awesome, personal thing that MP did for us fans
3. The Bootlegs and special shows (covers)
4. MP had a great presence behind the kit
Overall, I think for the health of "Dream Theater" as an entity, it was best that MP moved on.
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When it happened I thought this might be the end of DT but now in hindsight we have got a happier DT and a happier MP who releases a lot of music.
I love ADTOE and DT12 more than the last couple of records with MP. I also think that the live shows have become better in that all members are more present, previously it was great if you were there for MP but not as good if you were there to see a band. It feels much more like a band today with more interaction between the various members on stage.
I haven't seen MP live since the split but have heard most of his releases and while not all are up my alley there are a couple of gems there.
I think MP was corrrect in that he needed a break from DT not that DT needed a break. As it turned out I think everyone is better for it...
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Huh? There are 12 albums. Understanding that a) there is no math that directly quantifies this, and b) I am not at all confusing "median" and "mean" (average), just using both concepts, I'm not at all sure how it's not reasonable to assume a rank of 9 out of 12 isn't at least "average". And same for "5".
Imagine that you're talking to a fan who regularly posts on "Dream Theater Forums." And then you ask this person to rank the DT albums. And they rank, say Octavarium #9 out of 12.
Technically speaking, mathematically speaking, within the context only of DT albums, this person finds Octavarium to be below average. But if you asked the same person "do you think Octavarium is a good album, an average album, or a bad album," they will probably say "a good album."
OP said that DT12 is considered an "average" effort by most of the fanbase, and my point was that even though the fans may not rank DT12 above the point that would be considered "average" within their discography, the fans probably don't find it to be an average album. I think they probably do find something like SC (#11/12) to be an "average" album.
Look, it's all subjective, but any one person's opinion is useless; it is irrelevant. So to say "I think it's their best!" is a waste of bandwidth. The best we have is the various means of drawing a consensus, and I think the OP is right on the mark, or at least reasonable for thinking so.
I'm not trying to make any statements about what is the best or isn't the best. But the thread that I linked to is something I did a few months back for exactly the purpose of bringing something more objective than "most people seem to be saying this" to these sorts of conversations. It's not perfect, but it's one man, one vote, which is somewhat better than just seeing what opinion seems to be posted most often. It was definitely relevant to OP, and that was my sole purpose: to provide some relevant numbers that people might be interested in seeing. I don't really get why you're attacking me so strongly over that.
I was never bothered by MP's ego.
Being a long time Nightwish fan, I think he pales in comparison to Tuomas Holopainen, lol, talk about being the "face"
Eh, but Tuomas is the genius behind Nightwish. If you take the other four away and replace them, you have something that's definitely very different than what it was before, but it would be more "Nightwish" than if you kept Emppu, Marco, Jukka and Floor and replaced Tuomas. That's not true of MP, where the rest of DT without MP is more "Dream Theater" than MP without the rest of DT.
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No, he was not right, primarily because Dream Theater is not the kind of band that can disappear for 5 years or so and come back "bigger then ever" (I believe those were his words). They are not Metallica or GnR where they can play shows after not releasing an album in over half a decade and still expect to draw in large crowds. In my eyes, Dream Theater are in a rather precarious position with their popularity. The current high level of interest they can command is based, in part, on the regularity of their write-record-tour schedule. They don't have any big hits from their past on which they can rely to draw in concert attendees (when was the last time Pull Me Under got played on the radio?).
The point is, Dream Theater needs to keep their momentum going. They spent a decade after SFAM building up their position until they reached a point when they signed with Roadrunner where they were totally in control of their own careers due to a level of popularity far greater then what music of their limited mainstream appeal would normally warrant. But all that was dependent, in part, on releasing albums and touring on a regular basis. Taking a 5 year break would have ruined that, and it's likely they would have lost momentum that would have taken them years to regain, if at all.
Beyond that, I have other reasons for feeling Portnoy was wrong. In the realm of personal taste, SC and BC&SL were the two weakest albums of their career. The lyrics and vocal melodies were becoming rather lazy and uninspired, and the inclusion of trendy "modern" metal elements, like the grunts and so on, did not fit in well with the established sound of the band. I don't hate those records, I do enjoy them, but they are my least favourite in the entire DT discography. The two records they have done post-MP, especially DTXII, smoked them in every possible way.
Also, I really don't see any notable decline in their album sales and concert attendance. Since they signed to Roadrunner, all their albums have consistently sold 35 to 40 k in their first week, and based on my personal concert attendance, their crowds are as big as ever. I do think they may have hit a bit of a plateau, though, in terms of fan base growth. Even so, the simple fact that they have been able to get their first Grammy nomination 25 years into their career (and a second nomination for the next album after that) shows that they still have new markets to break into and new audiences they can reach. Their growth may be slowing, but there is still further potential.
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Quite frankly, while those nominations came up with MM, it came from their established history.
There is absolutely no evidence to support this other than that Mike Portnoy has mentioned it, and in my opinion, it was simply to discredit DT.
I'd even wager MP's leaving gave them a higher profile so that the Grammy people finally decided to nominate them.
I wouldn't doubt that.
For the record, I think Grammys are bullshit anyway but it was good publicity for one of my favorite bands so I'm cool with it.
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There is absolutely no evidence to support this other than that Mike Portnoy has mentioned it, and in my opinion, it was simply to discredit DT.
Nothing in this thread really qualifies as evidence.
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While it's true that the grammy thing is BS, one can't deny the facts: DT's popularity has remained fairly consistent, if not better, since MP left.
Not to attack MP personally or to have a grudge against him, I admire the man and love his work, and his best albums with DT are better than anything that MM has done, although neither of MM's two albums are worse than MP's worst albums.
But I think that he takes DT matters too seriously, a little bit too seriously. During the months following his departure, he was ranting and angrily responding comments and posts regarding him. I can understand this, I would do the same thing, because most of these posts were intentionally misleading or provoking his answers.
But the fact that he continues to answer DT related stuff up to this day, that's not good, and I don't feel it does any good to him or his image. Check his FB page, he continues to answer DT related comments even though he doesn't really have to. And he's usually made fun of when he actually does answer, I think he should have realised that a lot of people are purposely taunting him, yet he continues to answer and telling people to go and bash DT, not him, idk, just a point of view.
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I'm happy Dream Theater kept going. When all this was going down was just before I got into them, and if they were going to be off the radar for five years, I probably would have never gotten into them or prog in general,
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There is absolutely no evidence to support this other than that Mike Portnoy has mentioned it, and in my opinion, it was simply to discredit DT.
Nothing in this thread really qualifies as evidence.
Yes, but many things can be easily fact checked (statements in interviews, attendance numbers) but the claim I am referring to was simply ridiculous.
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I think Portnoy was right. When you look at pre-8VM DT there's a band brimming with energy, trying out new stuff, making new live arrangements, having fun on stage. After 8VM it just seems like they lost that spark and people noticed. I feel like when Portnoy left they got a slight temporary boost but the overall decline has continued. They've settled into a comfort zone which gives them financial security at the expense of enthusiasm and creativity. I feel it happens to most people at some point, not just in music but in all walks of life, and they've kept it up for much longer than many people would have, so props to them for that. I think that their overall decline in performance is also mostly related to this lack of interest. Some people say that it has to do with them getting old, but I don't think age in itself is necessarily a factor. There are many performers in classical music and jazz who have kept a higher standard of performance at a much more advanced age. I mean, they're around 50, not exactly ancient. For me this is the biggest thing, I can deal with the music getting a bit stale as long as it's still good (which it is IMO) but when the performance level drops it's a bummer (mostly talking about Labrie and Petrucci here). Especially when they need to heavily overdub/autotune live releases like BTFW. I feel like they're on the home stretch and have been for some time.
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Do you think the band was right to stick together, drop have Portnoy leave, find a new drummer, and carry on? Or was Portnoy on to something? Could they have used a few years off to recharge?
I've been a big DT fan since first hearing Pull me Under on the radio in 1992 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=31620.msg1256715#msg1256715).
I prefer Portnoy's groove to Mangini's style, and I was stunned and saddened to learn of Portnoy's departure. Still, ADTOE is my favorite DT album (and DT12 is better than most of the Portnoy DT albums too).
Had they instead taken a break, who knows how it would've turned out? But Pertrucci and Rudess are making more consistent music without Portnoy, and I've enjoyed much of his post DT stuff too.
2. I miss the rotating setlist. That was always one of those awesome, personal thing that MP did for us fans
I also miss this, but it's worth noting that they did away with it on Portnoy's last Dream Theater tour (granted, that was when they opened for Iron Maiden in 2010, so it had to do with playing an abbreviated set to a larger audience).
Here's an interesting take on how it went down:
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-is-happy-to-see-avenged-sevenfold-has-blossomed-to-a-whole-new-level-following-his-departure
AVENGED SEVENFOLD guitarist Zacky Vengeance stated about being caught in the middle of the drama between Portnoy and DREAM THEATER, "It was something that we were not used to at all. We had never, ever experienced any kind of in-the-spotlight drama; we just always stay in the shadows and keep any of our personal business private. And [Mike is] a very different character — he always goes straight to fans [on] Twitter or whatever… That's how he dealt with his band, and it was new to us. We like to be in touch with our fans, but we're also very private."
He continued, "[Mike had] been talking about quitting DREAM THEATER, that he wasn't necessarily happy, and he was excited to be playing with us; we were playing huge shows and stuff. I think he got caught up in the moment, got excited. We begged him to consider what he did, because we were in no position to find a permanent replacement, because in all honesty, you can't replace Jimmy, who was our best friend — first and foremost — besides beng an amazing drummer. So it just wasn't the right time and the place. And he told us, 'Hey, I've got good news and bad news. I quit DREAM THEATER.' We were like, 'Oh, no. Well, if you're happy, then that's good.' [And he was like], 'Now I can be with you guys.' And we were like, 'That's not necessarily what we decided upon. And you should take your time and reconsider.' And he was like, 'Well, I put out my press release.' We were like, 'Dude, that's not how we do business. You should have talked to us before.' Then it was back and forth [between Mike and his former DREAM THEATER bandmates]. We were out of it; we had nothing to do with it. We were just trying to get back on our feet. So when all that was going down, it was causing us a lot of heartache, to be honest — to see our name in this drama-filled love triangle. He helped us out at a really vulnerable time, and for that we will always be extremely appreciative. But for us, we were so unstable at that point that any unneeded attention was just very harmful to us. Obviously, it didn't work out [between us and Mike], but I think it's for the best — for him and for us."
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Well... I love MP but I just wish he sometimes restrained himself a bit...
I remember reading that and how it confirmed the notion that he quit DT in hopes of hanging with A7X. How he then tried to get back into DT was quite pathetic....
MP "needed" or wanted a break from DT... and now I am glad it happened the way it did.
Seems like MP has learned to restrain himself a little now too l think. He seems to think a little more before "pulling the trigger" now.
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Yeah it was kinda a triple whammy of bad luck for MP.
• He wanted a break from being in DT and they didn't want a break so he quit.
• Avenged Sevenfold let him go for all the drama.
• DT had already hired Mangini ( and gone through a ton of legal stuff to get him in the band ) so he couldn't re-join.
But " I already put out my press release " is still funny.
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MP was still freaking out about the "press release" claim a few years after the fact when it was brought up in an interview. He says he never put out a press release BUT to most people, an official facebook statement is essentially a press release soooooo...
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It takes two to tango, so while MP may have been the one to initiate the breakup and was certainly a major part of why the friendships fell apart, you can be sure that the rest of the band played a role as well - they just were much better at keeping their mouths shut.
This was the difference for me in where I fell as far as 'what side' I'm on. MP was a complete :censored after he didn't get ANY of his ways. He didn't get the hiatus...he didn't get to keep drumming for AX7 and he didn't get to come back to the band when it all blew up in his face. Rather than put his ego aside and admit he was wrong right when it happen (could have actually worked for him to get back in the band) he chose to be an ignorant :censored for the next year or so. Other than JLB defending himself (and DT) against some comment MP made.....those guys kept their mouths shut and stayed respectful about the whole thing. I lost near most of any 'respect' I had for MP due to his actions/comments in the wake of the break up. I still dig the guys drumming and buy his music (save Adrenaline Mob :tdwn) but I used to hold him in high regard (for whatever reason)....not so much anymore.
as far as the rest of the DT members 'playing a role', other than an outright non agreement to take a hiatus there is nothing that has been made public that indicates they did anything to 'drive' MP away.
Yeah, opinions, assholes, got it. But that doesn't really seem fair. So it's only "truth" or "relevant" if it is in the public domain?
I think the parallels are striking, but they don't seem to get mentioned: Mike put an option on the table. NO. Put an alternative on the table. NO. Put additional alternatives on the table. NO. He may have been a founding member, a leading member, but he is but one of five. And while this is pure speculation, there is some evidence to support it, I think SOMETHING happened between him and JP, and he lost the swing vote. We know for a fact that something went south with JM, we know that JLB dislikes Mike (comments in the SC doc, as well as numerous low comments after the split), so once the balance between JP and MP was altered, it was really a fait accompli. And I can totally understand where MP is coming from; did he handle everything as perfectly as some would want? No. But did he handle what was likely an emotional, and on some levels a humiliating and embarrassing, situation as good as could be reasonably asked for? I think so.
Frankly, this is not the first time (nor will it be the last) that a band has had two dynamic, strong figures that come to cross purposes, and one of them gets the "big head" that they can go it alone.
Show pictures of 100,000 people at a festival all you want, but that - to me, don't expect others to agree - just means to me a level of "lowest common denominator" that wasn't there before. How many of you that have that drumstick, or that signed program, or the story that "Hey, I was at that recording of Score" give a crap about how many people can cram into a stadium where ten bands are playing and one of them happens to be Dream Theater? It's not as if they are Taylor Swift or U2 and can fill a stadium for an "Evening With..." type show. Give me the "Prog Nation" type tour where I'm sitting in my seat waiting for the show to start and Marlene and Max walk by and wave "hi" even though they don't know me from a row of assholes but are grateful that we came to the show. Sorry, but for all the bad words about Mike and his so-called "mouth", I've lost that, and now DT is just one of many.
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3. It is SO OBVIOUS, that their following has decreased, especially live and double especially in North America.
This is so not true. Their numbers are relatively consistent. The key exception being a rare and quite odd itinerary that put them in Ohio 3 times in a relatively short period of time which is not a strong market to begin with. I think at one show they only brought in 700 but that was basically due to over saturation. They would have had similar numbers in almost any state maybe with the exception of California. Otherwise there is no evidence that their following has decreased.
I report what "I" see. EVERY show I've attended since MP left (aside from 1 show on the ADTOE tour in Morristown) was WEAKLY attended!!!
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For the people saying their popularity is less than it was with MP (whatever era)...
Also, when did they headline the major festivals like this?
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1610961_10152868549927181_4702345724585369567_n.jpg?oh=d44655e8f1c85a84fff730d66b90c49e&oe=563AE0F7)
Oh wait, never mind.... I remember now.
I think I see a thousand DT fans in that crowd! ;)
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3. It is SO OBVIOUS, that their following has decreased, especially live and double especially in North America.
This is so not true. Their numbers are relatively consistent. The key exception being a rare and quite odd itinerary that put them in Ohio 3 times in a relatively short period of time which is not a strong market to begin with. I think at one show they only brought in 700 but that was basically due to over saturation. They would have had similar numbers in almost any state maybe with the exception of California. Otherwise there is no evidence that their following has decreased.
I report what "I" see. EVERY show I've attended since MP left (aside from 1 show on the ADTOE tour in Morristown) was WEAKLY attended!!!
All 5 shows I have seen with MM have been VERY WELL attended, New York City (2), New Jersey (2), and Los Angeles (1). One of the NJ shows was poorly attended for the venue (20,000+ venue), but still had a lot of fans for a DT show. The lowest turn out was before MP left the band during the Prognation tours. That was my experience. Everywhere is different though.
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But the fact that he continues to answer DT related stuff up to this day, that's not good, and I don't feel it does any good to him or his image. Check his FB page, he continues to answer DT related comments even though he doesn't really have to. And he's usually made fun of when he actually does answer, I think he should have realised that a lot of people are purposely taunting him, yet he continues to answer and telling people to go and bash DT, not him, idk, just a point of view.
And because he still answers them even though he doesn't have to, I still consider him one of my favorite musicians of all time. I LIKE his candor, I LIKE the fact that he is willing to share info, even when that info isn't necessarily in his favor or will possibly be used as evidence against him. I wish more musicians would do that instead of the canned, slangly responses that a lot of musicians give when pressed with a question they've heard a thousand times. Listen to any response from Paul Stanley - whom I've met a couple times, and revere as one of my first childhood heroes - about the current state of the band and Ace/Peter. It's always something pithy like "A band is like a hot dog; if you don't have the right mustard and relish, no one will eat it". Or something equally as inane.
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Album sales, concert attendance, grammy nominations
None of these really have anything to do with why they parted ways, so why even make it a part of the conversation.
If you need any proof of that, I saw DT on the SFAM tour in a club and that album was one of their lowest charting. Grammy? Jethro Tull.
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I think I see a thousand DT fans in that crowd! ;)
The point is they are sought after and are being ASKED to play those Festivals now.
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I miss Portnoy and I think DT was a better band with him. Miss his compositions, his playing, his live energy and the contact he had with the fans.
I liked ADTOE but think DT12 is their worst album.
Live they are still a great band to see, but I hate the click. Now they lack spontaneity.
Wish he was still in the band.
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Of course it's hard not to miss MP's feel in the drums. It's basically the same for almost 20 years now. :P
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I miss Portnoy and I think DT was a better band with him. Miss his compositions, his playing, his live energy and the contact he had with the fans.
I liked ADTOE but think DT12 is their worst album.
Live they are still a great band to see, but I hate the click. Now they lack spontaneity.
Wish he was still in the band.
Agree with "almost" everything.
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Album sales, concert attendance, grammy nominations
None of these really have anything to do with why they parted ways, so why even make it a part of the conversation.
They're part of the conversation because it's not just about the parting of ways, but whether or not Mike was "right", and each of these are ways of measuring Dream Theater's success since the split. Some may not consider any or all of them to be proper ways of measuring success, but they are objective at the very least. People can argue all day about which albums are better or worse or average, before or after the split, etc. Album sales and concert attendance tell you how "big" a band is.
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Nonsense thread. The last 2 albums have been amazing imo.
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Album sales, concert attendance, grammy nominations
None of these really have anything to do with why they parted ways, so why even make it a part of the conversation.
They're part of the conversation because it's not just about the parting of ways, but whether or not Mike was "right", and each of these are ways of measuring Dream Theater's success since the split. Some may not consider any or all of them to be proper ways of measuring success, but they are objective at the very least. People can argue all day about which albums are better or worse or average, before or after the split, etc. Album sales and concert attendance tell you how "big" a band is.
I think Orbert is 100% right. Because we all know One Direction is a better band than Dream Theater.
I kid, of course, and I don't think anyone would argue that they aren't at least a more financially successful band than DT, but it really does matter what the measure is. I would personally love to ask Mike about this some day. Some were looking at AMob as a stab towards that arena rock success (ala Disturbed, Staind, A7X, though for someone as smart and savvy as Mike, I can't believe that he would've put all his eggs into something as hokey as AMob) but really nothing he's done since was blatantly with an eye toward Grammy's and 100,000 seat metal festivals.
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Album sales, concert attendance, grammy nominations
None of these really have anything to do with why they parted ways, so why even make it a part of the conversation.
They're part of the conversation because it's not just about the parting of ways, but whether or not Mike was "right", and each of these are ways of measuring Dream Theater's success since the split. Some may not consider any or all of them to be proper ways of measuring success, but they are objective at the very least. People can argue all day about which albums are better or worse or average, before or after the split, etc. Album sales and concert attendance tell you how "big" a band is.
Problem is, we don't have any kind of counterfactual. We've no idea what album sales and crowd sizes would have been like had MP been in the band.
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Album sales, concert attendance, grammy nominations
None of these really have anything to do with why they parted ways, so why even make it a part of the conversation.
They're part of the conversation because it's not just about the parting of ways, but whether or not Mike was "right", and each of these are ways of measuring Dream Theater's success since the split. Some may not consider any or all of them to be proper ways of measuring success, but they are objective at the very least. People can argue all day about which albums are better or worse or average, before or after the split, etc. Album sales and concert attendance tell you how "big" a band is.
I think Orbert is 100% right. Because we all know One Direction is a better band than Dream Theater.
I kid, of course, and I don't think anyone would argue that they aren't at least a more financially successful band than DT, but it really does matter what the measure is. I would personally love to ask Mike about this some day. Some were looking at AMob as a stab towards that arena rock success (ala Disturbed, Staind, A7X, though for someone as smart and savvy as Mike, I can't believe that he would've put all his eggs into something as hokey as AMob) but really nothing he's done since was blatantly with an eye toward Grammy's and 100,000 seat metal festivals.
I wasn't using sales to compare Dream Theater to some other band, and I wasn't arguing that more popular means better.
My point is that people can argue all day whether the two post-Portnoy albums are better or worse, but those are just opinions. Did they sell more? Do they now sell more concert tickets than they used to? Those are more objective measures of how popular Dream Theater is, and in that sense how well they are doing. It has nothing to do with comparing them to some other band; it's about comparing Dream Theater now to Dream Theater five years ago. That was original question.
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I, personally, shut off DT after SDOIT, and for quite some time. I was very happy with the 6.5 (gotta include Change of Seasons in there) albums. Heard Train of thought.. ugh.. Then I bought Octavarium and pulled it out after 2 songs (I seriously never finished listening to the whole thing). I Didn't want to hear any more. The band was heading in a "too heavy" direction for me. Being a fan since WDADU, I was turned off by the too heavy sound.
Now, I have gone back through the catalog in the past several months, and safe to say Portney leaving has breathed some sort of new life into the band. The last 2 releases have far exceeded the previous 4. I can't get into the depth, lyrics and all that. I just know what I personally like and where they were heading was no it. DT12 and ADTOE have jumped past SDOIT, for me.
And, seriously, how is Breaking All Illusions not everyones favorite song behind Metropolis and Learning to Live? ;)
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Then I bought Octavarium and pulled it out after 2 songs (I seriously never finished listening to the whole thing). I Didn't want to hear any more. The band was heading in a "too heavy" direction for me.
You stopped listening after The Answer Lies Within, because they were getting too heavy? :P
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We've no idea what album sales and crowd sizes would have been like had MP been in the band.
My guess is pretty minimal, as bands on a 5 year break tend to not sell a lot of albums or concert tickets.
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Personally, I miss Mike, because of Mike. I miss his personality, his showmanship, his gearing up the crowd.
Do I think DT is a better, tighter unit since he left? Yes, I actually do. I think Luna Park sucked, but Breaking the Fourth Wall was fantastic.
It's just something I have to live with, but he's making records and touring with Transatlantic, Winery Dogs, The Neal Morse Band, Flying Colour and now Metal Allegiance.
Mike's doing his thing. Mike's being Mike, and I like that. Also, Mangini is not Mike. Mangini might be a machine, Mike has groove.
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And Mangini has no groove. Here we go again. :lol
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One of my biggest griped with Mangini is that he admits he composes solos to be an exercise and not to be musical.
That's why I can never enjoy his solos.
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I think MM and MP are gay for each other.
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One of my biggest griped with Mangini is that he admits he composes solos to be an exercise and not to be musical.
That's why I can never enjoy his solos.
Pretend you never heard him say that? :lol
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I can never enjoy drum solos in general. I find them boring, no matter who does them.
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I can never enjoy drum solos in general. I find them boring, no matter who does them.
Likewise. Not a knock on any particular drummer, it's just not something I like to listen to solo. In fact, drum solos are my #2 greatest fear.
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I can never enjoy drum solos in general. I find them boring, no matter who does them.
Likewise. Not a knock on any particular drummer, it's just not something I like to listen to solo. In fact, drum solos are my #2 greatest fear.
I would agree 99% of the time but I do recall thinking that Alex Van Halen's solo on the 3 tour was the highlight of the night (and that was a great gig despite the album)........... I normally go for a piss during drum solos. A really cool calypso inspired solo with horn sounds piped in - it was quite amazing.
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I can never enjoy drum solos in general. I find them boring, no matter who does them.
Likewise. Not a knock on any particular drummer, it's just not something I like to listen to solo. In fact, drum solos are my #2 greatest fear.
And what's your greatest fear?
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Not a big fan of drum solos either, but the time MP did the drum solo at progressive nation with the other drummers was actually a highlight of that show. It really got the crowd going and a non DT fan that was with us was blown away by that and he even said that was the best part of the show.
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And I forgot Satchel......... ;D
https://youtu.be/S5YwcaXSGu4?t=252
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I can never enjoy drum solos in general. I find them boring, no matter who does them.
Likewise. Not a knock on any particular drummer, it's just not something I like to listen to solo. In fact, drum solos are my #2 greatest fear.
And what's your greatest fear?
#1 - Death
#2 - Drum solos
#3 - Losing power in the middle of saving a file
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I was backing in sunlight.
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Mike Portnoy = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXV1kDeorWo
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Mike Portnoy = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXV1kDeorWo
:lol :clap:
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One of my biggest griped with Mangini is that he admits he composes solos to be an exercise and not to be musical.
That's why I can never enjoy his solos.
What? Where did he say that? The interview I just posted in the Mike Mangini thread says the opposite.
The ones he say are not musical are the exercise videos he post online, and then in some parts of the 20 minute plus solos he do in drum clinics. But for shows, he always intends them to be musical, especially the solos he did in his later years.
The BTFW and LALP solos are very musical.
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I can't bear Mangini's solos. The only thing about him I don't enjoy. I just find them to be like a clinical exercise in compound time and polyrhythms.
It's not like " check out this sweet groovy tribal tom thing i'm doing " or anything that sounds nice to the ears like that.
It's more like " Check this out - i'm playing 17 with my right side and 9 with my left side "
It just bores me as a drum solo.
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I can't bear Mangini's solos. The only thing about him I don't enjoy. I just find them to be like a clinical exercise in compound time and polyrhythms.
It's not like " check out this sweet groovy tribal tom thing i'm doing " or anything that sounds nice to the ears like that.
It's more like " Check this out - i'm playing 17 with my right side and 9 with my left side "
It just bores me as a drum solo.
I feel the opposite because Mangini does have a lot of groove with in his drum solos. He has some cool rhythms, cool beats, and sure some crazy exercises. I would say at least 50% of drum solos bore me but Mangini's are not among them.
I also have to say I love the cool tribal tom thing you speak of which is why I love the Ina-Gadda-Da-Vida drum solo or even a Peter Criss solo, the only decent thing Peter Criss does. Even though they're simplistic, they are pleasing.
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I love Jimmy Chamberlin for that stuff.
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Drum solos mostly boring the snot out of me, too. Even on the last few tours, Neil Peart's solos boring me, and I used to genuflect to his solos (not that I think any less of him; I am just bored by solos now).
Also, Stadler, that is not fair to say that JLB has taken "low shots" at Portnoy since the latter left the band, since a) JLB's comments were fairly harmless, and b) Portnoy took way worse shots at him were they were in the band together (a far worse offense). Considering the criticism Portnoy used to level at him, fair or not, JLB has taken the high road.
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I agree with people that drum solos are usually mind-numbingly boring. However, something like this I will watch all the way through: https://youtu.be/_quRW8IKZ5Q
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I agree with people that drum solos are usually mind-numbingly boring. However, something like this I will watch all the way through: https://youtu.be/_quRW8IKZ5Q
Didn't like the rest of the music at all (which is not surprising), but that is a really cool video as it forced me to focus on the drumming, which was just...incredible. Very technical, but also just a really nice groove and feel to it. Fantastic. I really just wish he played for a different band. :lol
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I love Jimmy Chamberlin for that stuff.
That guy is a monster on drums!
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The Mangini drum solos were something that were cool on his first world tour with the band (like when Portnoy did them on the I&W world tour with the band's first major world exposure). But that's really the only situation I see where they can do a drum solo and it doesn't take away from the rest of the show. It's basically "We have a new drummer and he's going to show what he can do." They have so many songs they could play that the drum solo now-a-days could easily be replaced with a 4-6 minute tune.
And I'm having a hard time thinking how DT12 is their worst album (back to a comment earlier on this page). I hate to remind you that the original album recording of WDADU exists.
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I still enjoy the drum solo, but what I'd absolutely love to see now is a myung/mangini jam-out duet
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The Mangini drum solos were something that were cool on his first world tour with the band (like when Portnoy did them on the I&W world tour with the band's first major world exposure). But that's really the only situation I see where they can do a drum solo and it doesn't take away from the rest of the show. It's basically "We have a new drummer and he's going to show what he can do."
I generally agree. But I don't mind a short solo tied into a song. For example, I thought the short solo spot he had on the last tour in the middle of Enigma Machine worked well. It fit well in that part of the song, and it wasn't so long that it took the place of an entire song. I am fine with stuff like that.
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The Mangini drum solos were something that were cool on his first world tour with the band (like when Portnoy did them on the I&W world tour with the band's first major world exposure). But that's really the only situation I see where they can do a drum solo and it doesn't take away from the rest of the show. It's basically "We have a new drummer and he's going to show what he can do."
I generally agree. But I don't mind a short solo tied into a song. For example, I thought the short solo spot he had on the last tour in the middle of Enigma Machine worked well. It fit well in that part of the song, and it wasn't so long that it took the place of an entire song. I am fine with stuff like that.
Even though I am not a big live album guy, the problem with that is sometimes you end up where the only and/or best live version of a song is one with a drum solo stuck in the middle.
Case in point: Ytse Jam from Live in Tokyo. That remains by far my favorite version of that song, but it has that damnable drum solo in the middle (beginning with that stupid "Let's get ready to rummmmmbbbllleeee!" :facepalm:). Fortunately, thanks to the wonder of the internet, I was able to rip the audio from it and then seamlessly edit the drum solo out, and my version sounds totally natural, but every time I get to that "spot," I always know that it is unnatural since it wasn't played like that, damn it. :lol :lol
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I would not have a problem with that, but I see where you are coming from.
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And on the eighth day, God created the drum solo. And it was not good.
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Yeah, damn John Bonham....
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I agree with people that drum solos are usually mind-numbingly boring. However, something like this I will watch all the way through: https://youtu.be/_quRW8IKZ5Q
Didn't like the rest of the music at all (which is not surprising), but that is a really cool video as it forced me to focus on the drumming, which was just...incredible. Very technical, but also just a really nice groove and feel to it. Fantastic. I really just wish he played for a different band. :lol
Well he does now :P
He's released an album of big band covers of PT songs that sound almost nothing like the originals.
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Album sales, concert attendance, grammy nominations
None of these really have anything to do with why they parted ways, so why even make it a part of the conversation.
They're part of the conversation because it's not just about the parting of ways, but whether or not Mike was "right", and each of these are ways of measuring Dream Theater's success since the split. Some may not consider any or all of them to be proper ways of measuring success, but they are objective at the very least. People can argue all day about which albums are better or worse or average, before or after the split, etc. Album sales and concert attendance tell you how "big" a band is.
I think Orbert is 100% right. Because we all know One Direction is a better band than Dream Theater.
I kid, of course, and I don't think anyone would argue that they aren't at least a more financially successful band than DT, but it really does matter what the measure is. I would personally love to ask Mike about this some day. Some were looking at AMob as a stab towards that arena rock success (ala Disturbed, Staind, A7X, though for someone as smart and savvy as Mike, I can't believe that he would've put all his eggs into something as hokey as AMob) but really nothing he's done since was blatantly with an eye toward Grammy's and 100,000 seat metal festivals.
I wasn't using sales to compare Dream Theater to some other band, and I wasn't arguing that more popular means better.
My point is that people can argue all day whether the two post-Portnoy albums are better or worse, but those are just opinions. Did they sell more? Do they now sell more concert tickets than they used to? Those are more objective measures of how popular Dream Theater is, and in that sense how well they are doing. It has nothing to do with comparing them to some other band; it's about comparing Dream Theater now to Dream Theater five years ago. That was original question.
Well, perhaps I confused the issue by using a different band, but my point was that I think that is a bad standard to use. Or at the very least, misleading. "Selling more" is, or can be, a singular thing. What's a better album: "Toys In The Attic" or "Get A Grip"? More importantly, what's a better indicator of a band at the height of their creative powers? I don't really care if a band sells one record or a million, I think if the band is fresh and motivated and exploring new ideas, then it makes sense. If they don't, it doesn't. I wouldn't say the two new albums are "bad" per se, but they do seem rather safe. Frankly, with one exception ("This is The Life") I think James NEEDS to be with the band, needs to have someone like Mike saying "NO". Not every one, but many many great bands have a creative tension, and I'm struggling to see where that creative tension is in Dream Theater right now.
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Yeah, damn John Bonham....
But at least John (and Phil Collins, and sometimes Neil Peart) had the decency to craft (or have crafted) songs specifically around their drum solos, so you don't get that phenomenon happening.
With very few exceptions (two of whom are named above, another is named "Portnoy"), count me in on the group that will listen to a drum solo once for curiosity sake and then likely hit "SKIP" every time after.
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Honestly, with a few exceptions, I don't really like any dedicated solo sections in concerts. John's Luna Park solo was alright, but I would personally much rather hear another song than a solo on any instrument. That's because, for me, it's all about the songs, not about the technical virtuosity of anybody in the band.
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Honestly, with a few exceptions, I don't really like any dedicated solo sections in concerts. John's Luna Park solo was alright, but I would personally much rather hear another song than a solo on any instrument. That's because, for me, it's all about the songs, not about the technical virtuosity of anybody in the band.
Agreed, but I think bands use the solos as a way for the other members to take a break, or in Van Halen's case, to drink more.
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If I played drums (seriously), I'd probably be interested.
And to Stadler's point, there are ways to make it musical. What would attract my attention would be drummers that play some beats that aren't from their genre, such as non-Western beats.
Guitar solos that literally aren't running up and down scales or arpeggios can be somewhat interesting. I like it much better when it is a lead as opposed to a solo. When Petrucci plays lead over the rest of the band's live backing track, it is usually enjoyable.
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I like it much better when it is a lead as opposed to a solo. When Petrucci plays lead over the rest of the band's live backing track, it is usually enjoyable.
Agreed, something like what DT did on BTL from Budokan works for me. Lots of soloing going on there, but its within the band playing together. I find that much more interesting than just a single musician doing a solo.
A different example was Eddie Van Halen's guitar solo, his solo is really just a mix mash of all his solos from their albums so in a way he i s actually playing album tracks but doing it in a solo. That also works for me too although I'd still rather hear a song.
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Honestly, with a few exceptions, I don't really like any dedicated solo sections in concerts. John's Luna Park solo was alright, but I would personally much rather hear another song than a solo on any instrument. That's because, for me, it's all about the songs, not about the technical virtuosity of anybody in the band.
Agreed, but I think bands use the solos as a way for the other members to take a break, or in Van Halen's case, to drink more.
Yeah, I mean, I pretty much get why they do it. I just don't really enjoy lengthy interludes played on just one instrument with no real song structure.
I have no experience as a touring musician, so for all I know it is absolutely necessary to punctuate a three hour show with solo sections. But it seems to me that you could rest the bassist, drummer and guitarist by playing Wait for Sleep, you could rest the keyboard player, bassist and drummer by playing The Silent Man, and you could rest the singer by playing Stream of Consciousness. I don't know, maybe that's totally not feasible at all, but that's what I'd rather hear than individual solos if there was an option.
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I, personally, shut off DT after SDOIT, and for quite some time. I was very happy with the 6.5 (gotta include Change of Seasons in there) albums. Heard Train of thought.. ugh.. Then I bought Octavarium and pulled it out after 2 songs (I seriously never finished listening to the whole thing). I Didn't want to hear any more. The band was heading in a "too heavy" direction for me. Being a fan since WDADU, I was turned off by the too heavy sound.
Now, I have gone back through the catalog in the past several months, and safe to say Portney leaving has breathed some sort of new life into the band. The last 2 releases have far exceeded the previous 4. I can't get into the depth, lyrics and all that. I just know what I personally like and where they were heading was no it. DT12 and ADTOE have jumped past SDOIT, for me.
And, seriously, how is Breaking All Illusions not everyones favorite song behind Metropolis and Learning to Live? ;)
Yeah, Breaking All Illusions is incredible (I'm a huge fan of Bridges in the Sky and On the Backs of Angels too).
You should listen to these songs:
Train of Thought: Stream of Consciousness
Octavarium: Octavarium
Systematic Chaos: In the Presence of Enemies - Part I
Black Clouds & Silver Linings: The Count of Tuscany
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The Mangini drum solos were something that were cool on his first world tour with the band (like when Portnoy did them on the I&W world tour with the band's first major world exposure). But that's really the only situation I see where they can do a drum solo and it doesn't take away from the rest of the show. It's basically "We have a new drummer and he's going to show what he can do."
I generally agree. But I don't mind a short solo tied into a song. For example, I thought the short solo spot he had on the last tour in the middle of Enigma Machine worked well. It fit well in that part of the song, and it wasn't so long that it took the place of an entire song. I am fine with stuff like that.
In that sense, I can agree. I primarily was talking about the longer solos that would exceed 4-6 minutes or so. I felt the shorter solo in Enigma Machine worked well, too.
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Agreed, something like what DT did on BTL from Budokan works for me. Lots of soloing going on there, but its within the band playing together. I find that much more interesting than just a single musician doing a solo.
This. BTL at Budokan was incredible and honestly, very interesting and entertaining. I usually can't say those things about a simple solo spot, regardless of whether its drums, guitar, etc... The one thing I will say, I really enjoy when JR plays extended piano intros to songs that start with piano (I think he has been doing this summer with ATC, he did it before Surrounded on Luna Park I think). I could listen to JR play piano all day...
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Honestly, with a few exceptions, I don't really like any dedicated solo sections in concerts. John's Luna Park solo was alright, but I would personally much rather hear another song than a solo on any instrument. That's because, for me, it's all about the songs, not about the technical virtuosity of anybody in the band.
Agreed fully, with regard to solo spots/songs/big chunks of time. I cannot say I equally dislike drum solos compared to bass solos, guitar solos, trumpet solos, keytar solos, vocal solos, timpani solos and so on. But I really dislike them all, and prefer not to have them.
Thats not to say don't let it rip- Jazz gets it spot on IMO. I might not know what is going on harmonically, and I don't find myself listening to it a lot, but the 1-3 minutes per instrument is just solid. And in almost all rock songs, a written solo usually doesn't last more than that time too I feel.
Drum soloing for 6 plus minutes. ZZZZzzzzzZZZZzzzz. That said, I agree with Stadler about Peart and Collins. More so Collins- he really planned out the duel solos at the end of his career (at this point), and to me they were not all about how fast I can let it rip.
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Re: the original topic:
I think it's best to just listen to the great music DT are still making rather than reminisce about the "What if this, what if that?" scenarios.
For me personally, I love Mike Mangini and what he has contributed to DT.
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Exactly.. And, besides that, we'll never know the circumstances regarding those "what if.."..
Was Portnoy right?.. We'll never know that, because what he wanted didn't happen; only if it would've happened we could value the decision.. Regarding the facts, impossible question-impossible answer..
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MP was most definitely wrong. In my opinion, their last 2 albums are better than quite a few with Portnoy. There is just more emotion overall, LaBrie sounds amazing, the drumming is much more musical, Jordan's parts are much more varied again, and there are no more of his silly metal vocals. The mixes are a bit weird (especially the self-titled album) but I just try to look past that, as the music is some of the best they have ever done in my opinion.
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My take on the subject in my most objective point of view:
Pros:
The music feels different, and somewhat more inspired than their last 2 Portnoy efforts (SC and Black Clouds).
The band seems happier now.
The band doesn't feel anymore like a monarchy.
No more 'forbidden' songs. The band's catalogue is available for live performance anytime.
JLB stepped up as the true frontman of the band. This was necessary.
Cons:
Fan interaction has suffered. Greatly. It's been months since we had any true updates or anything new to discuss about, and that makes me forget about DT for a while (thing that never happened in the Portnoy days).
The setlists don't feel as smart and as well thought out as Portnoy's. BTFW's setlist is nice and the inclusion of songs like SDV was amazing, but the flow isn't as nice as a SDOIT era setlist, for example.
The 30th anniversary setlist sucked mostly, which is kind of a wasted landmark. Their 20th Anniversary World Tour was so amazing in all aspects that this mini-tour was extremely underwhelming. I get it was a festival tour, but it wasn't what I imagined it would be. Some of the least representative songs of each album were played with no flow whatsoever between the songs, which would never have happened with Portnoy me thinks.
The band feels more like any other rock band nowadays, and doesn't feel as special as I felt they were back in 2006, for example.
Sound quality of their albums. There hasn't been a truly amazing album production-wise (both live and studio) since the Portnoy days.
I'm kind of 50/50, and I love Mangini but I do feel the band lost something deeper than its drummer. I will still see them live any time I can and buy their albums, but I'm not as crazy about them as I was back in 2010.
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No more 'forbidden' songs. The band's catalogue is available for live performance anytime.
I'll believe this when they play The Best of Times. But it was nice to hear Space Dye Vest. Now bring Disappear on tour and I'll be okay if they never play TBOT.
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I never liked what they did with SDV. To a good degree, it drove home the point for me that current DT is not capable of understanding why people loved SDV so much, and thus we will never have such a song again.
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No more 'forbidden' songs. The band's catalogue is available for live performance anytime.
I'll believe this when they play The Best of Times. But it was nice to hear Space Dye Vest. Now bring Disappear on tour and I'll be okay if they never play TBOT.
I think The Best of Times should be off limits. :-\ Personally, if I was in the band, I would feel very uncomfortable playing that song without Mike. Especially if I was in James's position.
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I never liked what they did with SDV. To a good degree, it drove home the point for me that current DT is not capable of understanding why people loved SDV so much, and thus we will never have such a song again.
I loved it. JP's guitar solo was one of the best I've ever heard.
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No more 'forbidden' songs. The band's catalogue is available for live performance anytime.
I'll believe this when they play The Best of Times. But it was nice to hear Space Dye Vest. Now bring Disappear on tour and I'll be okay if they never play TBOT.
I think The Best of Times should be off limits. :-\ Personally, if I was in the band, I would feel very uncomfortable playing that song without Mike. Especially if I was in James's position.
I agree as much as I would love to hear that guitar solo live. Those lyrics are so personal to Portnoy that it would just feel wrong if they played it without him.
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I don't see how the hell is SDV and TBOT even a logical and fair comparison.
It's as if you compared a family member's decease with a breakup, seriously guys.
SDV was not even close to being as emotionally an personally meaningful to KM as TBOT is to MP.
While the same should apply to ACoS, it really doesn't. Simply because MP has stated that his mother's death is not the only thing that inspired it. ACoS's lyrics are more poethical and unspecific, while TBOT is straight to the point and direct.
So yeah, I don't think they ever play it, pretty sure Jordan would refuse to do so, as well as JP. And even if they did, we can expect the largest MP outrage yet.
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When was MP ever right in his decision?
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I'm pretty sure I've heard TBOT live.
No wait, that was at a Rush concert. Different song.
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Ah, dang. You're right, didn't think on The Best of Times when I wrote my post.
But yeah, we're not losing anything big here. If it never gets played live, life goes on.
Also, I'm also not too happy with the new arrangement of SDV, but I kinda get it. We, the die-hards love the song for what it is, in its 7 minutes of darkness and moody atmosphere (also probably it has to do with the unhealthy amount of love Kevin Moore gets 'round these parts), but for the average 'fan' I get that listening to that live every night can be tiresome. I used to hate the song for many years until it finally 'clicked', and although I prefer the original arrangement I was super excited when they began playing the song and even when JLB hits the higher octave.
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I never liked what they did with SDV. To a good degree, it drove home the point for me that current DT is not capable of understanding why people loved SDV so much, and thus we will never have such a song again.
Thank god. One SDV is already one too many.
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Cons:
1- Fan interaction has suffered. Greatly. It's been months since we had any true updates or anything new to discuss about, and that makes me forget about DT for a while (thing that never happened in the Portnoy days).
2- The 30th anniversary setlist sucked mostly, which is kind of a wasted landmark.
3- The band feels more like any other rock band nowadays, and doesn't feel as special as I felt they were back in 2006, for example.
1- I agree, but that is something relative.. For instance, I like that silence.. In fact, I would prefer they don't give any information at all until the day of the release..
Personal advice: (I'm not going to say "You should listen to other bands", because I'm pretty sure no one listen to just one band, and less when that band is DT, but) sometimes you have to 'forget' a band you like, in order to give yourself a breath from it, and then go back to it.. You'll see how it gets even better..
2- No, it didn't.. It was great.. Except for the MM's era repetitive songs, all the other were excellent choices..
3- Rock band? No fckng way!.. They're still prog and metal, and yeah, sometimes the thing gets very hardrock, but rock band? :-\
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I never liked what they did with SDV. To a good degree, it drove home the point for me that current DT is not capable of understanding why people loved SDV so much, and thus we will never have such a song again.
Thank god. One SDV is already one too many.
We have two !
Space Dye Vest & Strange Deja Vu !!
i know which one i'd rather hear live and it isn't about a hippy blouse :neverusethis:
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I never liked what they did with SDV. To a good degree, it drove home the point for me that current DT is not capable of understanding why people loved SDV so much, and thus we will never have such a song again.
As someone whose favourite song on Awake is SDV and who loved what they did with it live, I can't agree at all.
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I never liked what they did with SDV. To a good degree, it drove home the point for me that current DT is not capable of understanding why I loved SDV so much, and thus I will never have such a song again.
Fixed that for you.
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I never liked what they did with SDV. To a good degree, it drove home the point for me that current DT is not capable of understanding why people loved SDV so much, and thus we will never have such a song again.
As someone whose favourite song on Awake is SDV and who loved what they did with it live, I can't agree at all.
When I first saw a YT clip of Space Dye Vest live, I'll admit I was a bit bummed, but when I saw it live twice in a week, them rocking it up a bit live at the end was pretty freaking awesome.
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I never liked what they did with SDV. To a good degree, it drove home the point for me that current DT is not capable of understanding why people loved SDV so much, and thus we will never have such a song again.
As someone whose favourite song on Awake is SDV and who loved what they did with it live, I can't agree at all.
When I first saw a YT clip of Space Dye Vest live, I'll admit I was a bit bummed, but when I saw it live twice in a week, them rocking it up a bit live at the end was pretty freaking awesome.
Yeah, I mean I wasn't bummed when I heard about the changes but I didn't really have a strong opinion for or against and wondered why they'd done it. But that sort of thing is very much for the people who are at the show, and when I actually saw it live it was great.
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Cons:
1- Fan interaction has suffered. Greatly. It's been months since we had any true updates or anything new to discuss about, and that makes me forget about DT for a while (thing that never happened in the Portnoy days).
2- The 30th anniversary setlist sucked mostly, which is kind of a wasted landmark.
3- The band feels more like any other rock band nowadays, and doesn't feel as special as I felt they were back in 2006, for example.
1- I agree, but that is something relative.. For instance, I like that silence.. In fact, I would prefer they don't give any information at all until the day of the release..
Personal advice: (I'm not going to say "You should listen to other bands", because I'm pretty sure no one listen to just one band, and less when that band is DT, but) sometimes you have to 'forget' a band you like, in order to give yourself a breath from it, and then go back to it.. You'll see how it gets even better..
2- No, it didn't.. It was great.. Except for the MM's era repetitive songs, all the other were excellent choices..
3- Rock band? No fckng way!.. They're still prog and metal, and yeah, sometimes the thing gets very hardrock, but rock band? :-\
2) It's not about the choices only, but the flow of the songs which I thought wasn't good.
Afterlife as an opener is kind of meh, and so unsuited for JLB as an opening song because he struggled a lot and didn't sound good singing that.
Metropolis is always nice, but it's kind of burnt out. What about Learning to Live? Take the Time?
Caught in a Web is a nice song, but far from being a whole representative of Awake. What about Voices? That would have been nice, and maybe would have added a better flow from Metropolis.
ACOS Innocence was awesome to listen to, no complaints. Shame it didn't make the cut for the shorter set festivals.
Burning my Soul is super meh, Peruvian Skies would have been so much better (taking a 'short song out of FII).
Spirit Carries On is always a nice song, but its slot in the set seemed very weird to me.
About to Crash was an awesome inclusion from SDOIT, but once again shame it didn't make the festival cut.
As I Am...I get its inclusion in a festival setlist, but that album has so many strong songs it seems weird to represent it with As I Am. Also, the transition from About to Crash to As I Am sounds kind of forced to me.
Panic Attack sounded amazing with Mangini, no complaints there.
I don't like Constant Motion at all, so that's a part of the set I kind of hated. They could've busted out ITPOE Pt.1 which is barely 2 minutes longer than Constant Motion and rocked our worlds. Also, it seems kind of weird playing that song without MP.
I like Wither, but also its spot in the set feels weird. I know it's an incremental set, but it feels weird you know?
Bridges in the Sky was an amazing inclusion, but it's shame this wasn't JLB's best tour ever because he didn't make the song justice vocally (judging from 4 or 5 bootlegs I listened to and the Wacken show).
Behind the Veil is not a good concert closer. Judging from the Wacken show, people were kind of bored at that point in the show. I like Behind the Veil, but its position as set closer didn't make it any justice. What about The Bigger Picture? That would have been a glorious ending song.
That's my reasoning behind my dislike of the setlist as a whole. I would have payed to see it if I lived in Europe, but would have been kind of underwhelmed.
3) Easy with the rock band thing. I know they're a prog metal band. I'm not talking about their music, I'm talking about the band interaction with the fans. They feel like 'any' band with their fans now, with little updates every now and then, every band announcement done by press releases, lack of facebook and social media interaction, etc.
Upon reading my original post again, I get why that third point might be confusing. I'm not talking about the music at all, and calling DT a standard 'rock' band wouldn't make sense considering one of my first 'pros' of this new DT is that their music feels more fresh and inspired to me. I hope that clears things up. ;)
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Honestly, I don't like that they did "one song from each album played chronologically," because whatever way you go, WDADU doesn't provide you with a good opener. And if you're looking for the best of mediocre openers, you need to go A Fortune in Lies, not Afterlife.
At least on Score they played two songs from the new album first including The Root of All Evil as an opener.
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Yeah, they could've played songs from every album but rearrange them in the setlist. That would have let them be more diverse with the songs and the show would have had a better flow.
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Yeah, they could've played songs from every album but rearrange them in the setlist. That would have let them be more diverse with the songs and the show would have had a better flow.
I agree, but in fact I think Afterlife made a great opener, all things considered.
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Honestly, I don't like that they did "one song from each album played chronologically," because whatever way you go, WDADU doesn't provide you with a good opener. And if you're looking for the best of mediocre openers, you need to go A Fortune in Lies, not Afterlife.
At least on Score they played two songs from the new album first including The Root of All Evil as an opener.
I agree with you. When I first heard they were doing a chronological setlist, I just assumed they would start with AFIL. Afterlife is definitely not a good opener.
I am not a fan of chronological setlists anyway, even on Score which I think is an equally weak setlist, but you're right about TROAE being a good opener. In fact, I think it may be one of their best openers in their catalog. So at least Score had that going for it.
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Skip the video intro, play TOWHTSTS instead. Perfect opener right there. Not only that, but the members could come on stage one by one.
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Excellent song and cool idea but it always seems like that song and LFAGA are the two most hated from that album.
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Skip the video intro, play TOWHTSTS instead. Perfect opener right there. Not only that, but the members could come on stage one by one.
That is a pretty cool idea actually. It does seem like a really odd opener just because that song isn't exactly super well-known and seems to be rarely performed, but it could still work. Having said that I agree with the posts above saying they should have changed up the order and replaced a few of the songs.
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At least on Score they played two songs from the new album first including The Root of All Evil as an opener.
Yeah, they could've played songs from every album but rearrange them in the setlist. That would have let them be more diverse with the songs and the show would have had a better flow.
Agreed and agreed..
If they had played two songs from DT12 there are two obvious choices (STR and TBP), but if it were just one, I think STR would have been great as opener.. Nonetheless, and sadly, this was just an anniversary tour, and they decided to play one song from each album to commemorate the 30th years, and plus that, this was also a festival tour like someone said before.. It wasn't like Score in that sense..
But yeah, and if they had ordered in a non-chronological way the setlist, I suppose BTV itself would've been a nice opener, besides the obvious ones (AIA and BitS)..
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Underrated aspect of DT's live Space Dye Vest - The song feels like something you're supposed to listen to by yourself in your room during a rainy evening. The various little changes they made to the tone and dynamics of the song before JLB's high notes to make it play in a big concert hall were really good.
Overall, it's more about how they're different rather than whether one is better. Before JLB's "There's no one to take my blame" line, the other instruments drop out and you just have the keyboard and samples. There's a glassy synth pad that's fairly muted in the original but more emphasized in the live version. The original is more of a numb feeling, whereas the live version is more wistful ('I remember when I was open and how great it was'). The quieter samples in the original are like nagging, painful memories. The louder, reverbed samples in the live version feel more like being shouted down in the present tense.
The point is both versions tell the story about a guy closing himself off, but in different ways. It's not like the new version makes the old one not exist, or that the old one precludes the existence of the new one.
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Back to the Portnoy being right scenario.
In some ways, yes. The PR from the split ultimately helped DT. Even I had gone from a diehard DT fan to a casual fan, and the news brought me back to posting with DT fans after basically a 8-9 year hiatus. ADToE probably would have been how I received all post 6DOIT releases. Purchased and still excited about DT, but far from diehard. And the reunion probably would have been very good. What the reunion produced would have resulted in short term or long term PR / media success.
But using some projection backed by some insider information (only slightly insider), I kind of understand the possibility of the reason for the split. Much of Portnoy's DT-tenure decisions were correct. But the "I know what's best" (even if true) can be trying to those that might be thinking "how do we know if my suggestions wouldn't produce similar or better results if not given a serious and multi-step opportunity?"
There had already been rumors that MP and JP were both close and ready to go at it simultaneously. Sometimes I think that is one reason JP started lifting. So when the window presented itself, the "lesser" leaders came to consensus that "we will never know if a different approach will work if we don't try now."
But don't hold me to that or assume I care if my involuntary situation mapping is correct. It is just a thought that flashed through my mind way back then. It is entirely possible that too little direct information and too much projection is all that is. I enjoy what the JP-MP collaboration brings, so all the *drama* is really irrelevant.
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Underrated aspect of DT's live Space Dye Vest - The song feels like something you're supposed to listen to by yourself in your room during a rainy evening. The various little changes they made to the tone and dynamics of the song before JLB's high notes to make it play in a big concert hall were really good.
Overall, it's more about how they're different rather than whether one is better. Before JLB's "There's no one to take my blame" line, the other instruments drop out and you just have the keyboard and samples. There's a glassy synth pad that's fairly muted in the original but more emphasized in the live version. The original is more of a numb feeling, whereas the live version is more wistful ('I remember when I was open and how great it was'). The quieter samples in the original are like nagging, painful memories. The louder, reverbed samples in the live version feel more like being shouted down in the present tense.
The point is both versions tell the story about a guy closing himself off, but in different ways. It's not like the new version makes the old one not exist, or that the old one precludes the existence of the new one.
Very nicely put, couldn't have said it any better!
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Underrated aspect of DT's live Space Dye Vest - The song feels like something you're supposed to listen to by yourself in your room during a rainy evening. The various little changes they made to the tone and dynamics of the song before JLB's high notes to make it play in a big concert hall were really good.
Overall, it's more about how they're different rather than whether one is better. Before JLB's "There's no one to take my blame" line, the other instruments drop out and you just have the keyboard and samples. There's a glassy synth pad that's fairly muted in the original but more emphasized in the live version. The original is more of a numb feeling, whereas the live version is more wistful ('I remember when I was open and how great it was'). The quieter samples in the original are like nagging, painful memories. The louder, reverbed samples in the live version feel more like being shouted down in the present tense.
The point is both versions tell the story about a guy closing himself off, but in different ways. It's not like the new version makes the old one not exist, or that the old one precludes the existence of the new one.
That's quite the rationale, but I don't hear it at all.
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There had already been rumors that MP and JP were both close and ready to go at it simultaneously. Sometimes I think that is one reason JP started lifting.
"Go at it" - as in get into a fist fight with one another? If so, I can hardly imagine that ever happening. While JP and MP didn't see eye to eye on everything, I can't imagine that things would've ever devolved into a fist fight. I'd want to know where those rumors came from before even considering them to hold an ounce of truth.
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Yeah that doesn't seem right at all.
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Basically get to the point where one side no longer wants to compromise with the other side.
I'm not going to speculate in what fashion it would take place (although we don't have to speculate any longer). But the rumor was that Portnoy had the strongest "will" to hold on to his side of the opinion, so he usually got his way. It doesn't matter if Portnoy turned out right or wrong.
Honestly, I don't care about the inner workings of a band. What I had heard had no "physical" implications. That came from the spitting scenes that everybody seemed to witness.
All I am saying is neither side was really right or wrong. It was just human nature. Dominici isn't working out ... age difference. Kevin Moore was on a divergent path. Rudess was closer to the DT vision than Sherinian. Is LaBrie holding us back? And eventually, the two leaders would butt heads one too many times.
And sometimes one *bulks* up not to encourage a fight, but to discourage one. <see Danzig>
It isn't a single source or rumor.
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I'm pretty sure the fisfight woudln't be JP vs MP but MP vs JLB hahaha
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Basically get to the point where one side no longer wants to compromise with the other side.
I'm not going to speculate in what fashion it would take place (although we don't have to speculate any longer). But the rumor was that Portnoy had the strongest "will" to hold on to his side of the opinion, so he usually got his way. It doesn't matter if Portnoy turned out right or wrong.
While MP was known for fighting for his side, that doesn't mean that he always won, nor that he always insisted on it being his way. A perfect example of that would be his lead vocals on ANtR, as is well documented. Had it been up to him, they would've been full-on cookie monster, but JP wasn't comfortable with that, so instead they went with what ended up on the album.
I'm pretty sure the fisfight woudln't be JP vs MP but MP vs JLB hahaha
Exactly.
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I don't know why you guys want to make a test of wills into inevitably a test of strength. Or, if one side gets their way more often than not, that it is the equivalent to getting their way all the time.
As far as JLB, that is just dumbing things down. MP and JP were clearly the leaders and therefore the division between them would mostly rest on their shoulders and therefore the ultimate intersection is always at the crossroads of Petrucci St. and Portnoy Ave.
I'm not going to defend this to the end, because it was simply an observation based on some rumor and facts. But ultimately, it spells out why discussing a band's inner workings is ok with off the cuff statements, but when it starts to go beyond that ... something I don't want to be a part of.
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I don't know why you guys want to make a test of wills into inevitably a test of strength. Or, if one side gets their way more often than not, that it is the equivalent to getting their way all the time.
Maybe I misunderstood you, but by saying that they were "ready to go at it" gives the impression of a fist fight or the like. If that wasn't the case, that's cool - just say so. ;)
As far as JLB, that is just dumbing things down. MP and JP were clearly the leaders and therefore the division between them would mostly rest on their shoulders and therefore the ultimate intersection is always at the crossroads of Petrucci St. and Portnoy Ave.
There's no argument over who the leaders were when MP was in the band - it's pretty undisputed that it was JP and MP. But the reason why JL was brought in to the mix is because there was at least one or two times where an argument between MP and JL got heated enough that it almost resulted in a fist fight.
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There's no argument over who the leaders were when MP was in the band - it's pretty undisputed that it was JP and MP. But the reason why JL was brought in to the mix is because there was at least one or two times where an argument between MP and JL got heated enough that it almost resulted in a fist fight.
Yeah. I understand that.
I will clarify a bit more on the go at it and JP lifting weights.
It is more of a mental thing. You are butting heads with somebody (even productively) and then it starts to get a little more tense than usual. Most likely because it is just building off past differences. So sometimes one feels the need to channel that into physical conditioning. Partly for release and in the back of the mind, to discourage something from ever going beyond words.
Kind of like "if you want peace, prepare for war" adage. It doesn't mean you are ready to "throw down" or "go at it". Many times, it means you are trying to discourage it.
But I'm not claiming any of this as fact. Just tossing something out there for thought.
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Seems like JP said someone introduced him to power lifting, and he tried it and loved it.
That seems fine. Any attempt to introduce any band dynamic motivation into it seems unnecessary.
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We know we need some fresh DT content to discuss when we begin relating JP's bodybuilding to his musical relationship with MP.
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Seems like JP said someone introduced him to power lifting, and he tried it and loved it.
That seems fine. Any attempt to introduce any band dynamic motivation into it seems unnecessary.
My goodness talk about reaching for a story :lol
We really do need some DT news... :-\
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So today exactly 5 years ago, MP left the theater.
He's returning any time from now, guys, the 5 year thing has come to an end.
:biggrin:
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We know we need some fresh DT content to discuss when we begin relating JP's bodybuilding to his musical relationship with MP.
Yeah, that was the most ridiculous thing I've read all day. I can't imagine anyone working out would even SLIGHTLY have in mind that this is good because he's not agreeing as much as he used to with a close friend. Let alone JP of all people - probably one of the calmest and nicest people in the music industry.
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Wow, yeah, it was five years ago yesterday. Nobody remembers it anymore. :lol
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I'm sure there's still some fanboys somewhere who can tell you where they were and what they were doing when they got the news. It is a date which will live in infamy (for some).
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Nobody remembers it anymore. :lol
I wish that was true. I still see comments about this all the time, sadly.
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I'm sure there's still some fanboys somewhere who can tell you where they were and what they were doing when they got the news. It is a date which will live in infamy (for some).
I remember being logged in on his forum right when he posted his 'press release'. And I remember not being surprised by it......
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I sadly remember exactly where I was, in a mcdonalds in NYC chilling before my work shift started and my friend texted me saying "you hear about DT?" and I immediately logged on here and was shocked.
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I won't forget that day purely because a friend of mine, who was diagnosed with leukaemia the same time I was, passed away. I found out that morning that he passed, and then found out on FB that Portnoy left DT, which was unthinkable at the time, it was like being in a weird dream.
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I shouldn't have characterized everyone who can recall the event as "fanboys". I actually remember reading about it here on DTF, and thought for sure that it was a bad joke. I mean, Mike had been doing the thing with Avenged Sevenfold, and there was speculation that he probably thought it was cool playing with a younger, crazier band. Who wouldn't? Then came the announcement that he and DT had parted ways, and I just assumed it was someone who'd taken things to an extreme conclusion. But there was no way it was actually true, right?
It was indeed a dramatic turn of events.
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I remember I was lying in bed and I got the chills when I read it. Although, I wasn't really shocked by it. I laugh now at my reaction, but it was really weird. I also remember JP that night on his forum talking to people. I think that was the last time he did that....
I also remember the week prior, I had made a thread about which member was most likely to pull a Kevin Moore and leave the band.
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I'm sure there's still some fanboys somewhere who can tell you where they were and what they were doing when they got the news. It is a date which will live in infamy (for some).
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11659280_406627972870639_7308081430666315871_n.jpg?oh=af2b218049de1dffe4384077695d6bd7&oe=566264B6)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXPQ4PF0K0s&list=PL44C0BFAC657F4126&index=5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXPQ4PF0K0s&list=PL44C0BFAC657F4126&index=5)
Well James certainly misses MP
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I'm sure there's still some fanboys somewhere who can tell you where they were and what they were doing when they got the news. It is a date which will live in infamy (for some).
I clearly remember waking up - checking my phone for new messages or emails etc and I had a text from a fellow DT fan who simply said " MP has quit DT ! "
I remember being bemused about it but it wasn't a shock or anything. I spent the day then following the news online.
And then all the bitching began and I was so completely over MP at that point.
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I remember exactly where I was: at home, on a computer, and I read "Mike Portnoy & Dream Theater - 1985-2010"
I was shocked.
Mostly because when you see dates like 1992-2008 or 1965-2005, it means someone has died so I literally thought, "Did Portnoy fucking die?!"
Obviously Mike wasn't 25 years old at the time, but I clicked on it before I had a chance to process anything else and then I saw he quit. So a shocking 5 seconds of my life turned into a slightly less shocking but very surreal day.
A day later he changed the headline so I guess I wasn't the only one to think that and one or more people probably told him, "Dude, thats what you put on a tombstone...you should probably change that"
Funny thing was, he was on the Eddie Trunk show sometime that year talking about who owns what band's names and they asked him who owns the rights to DT's name. I always thought it was owned equally by the three original members or maybe even just JP and MP but Mike just paused and said, "Well, we never had to worry about it." I thought he just didnt want to get into it but from the lawsuit that almost happened it seems like it was really just an equal share. Part of why I was so shocked is that I had wrongly assumed he owned more of the name than he did so I didn't know what it meant for Dream Theater.
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I just remember getting home later that evening, eventually getting online, coming here, and wondering why there were so many people logged on to the forum at once. :lol :lol
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MP and the other guys should make another LTE album and have a song named "5 YEAR WARNING" and laugh at all this together with a beer (Not MP, he gets diet coke)
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Hahaha... :laugh:
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MP and the other guys should make another LTE album and have a song named "5 YEAR WARNING" and laugh at all this together with a beer (Not MP, he gets diet coke)
hahaha! That would be great. In all seriousness, JR and I think JP are both on good terms with him, so it doesn't seem to unreasonable to hope for another LTE album at least!
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It's probably a lot more likely than him playing with DT again. I think we might see some new LTE one day but who knows when that might happen.
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There's no argument over who the leaders were when MP was in the band - it's pretty undisputed that it was JP and MP. But the reason why JL was brought in to the mix is because there was at least one or two times where an argument between MP and JL got heated enough that it almost resulted in a fist fight.
Yeah. I understand that.
I will clarify a bit more on the go at it and JP lifting weights.
It is more of a mental thing. You are butting heads with somebody (even productively) and then it starts to get a little more tense than usual. Most likely because it is just building off past differences. So sometimes one feels the need to channel that into physical conditioning. Partly for release and in the back of the mind, to discourage something from ever going beyond words.
Kind of like "if you want peace, prepare for war" adage. It doesn't mean you are ready to "throw down" or "go at it". Many times, it means you are trying to discourage it.
But I'm not claiming any of this as fact. Just tossing something out there for thought.
All things being equal, I'll always listen to SS.
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I remember exactly where I was: at home, on a computer, and I read "Mike Portnoy & Dream Theater - 1985-2010"
I was shocked.
Mostly because when you see dates like 1992-2008 or 1965-2005, it means someone has died so I literally thought, "Did Portnoy fucking die?!"
Obviously Mike wasn't 25 years old at the time, but I clicked on it before I had a chance to process anything else and then I saw he quit. So a shocking 5 seconds of my life turned into a slightly less shocking but very surreal day.
A day later he changed the headline so I guess I wasn't the only one to think that and one or more people probably told him, "Dude, thats what you put on a tombstone...you should probably change that"
Funny thing was, he was on the Eddie Trunk show sometime that year talking about who owns what band's names and they asked him who owns the rights to DT's name. I always thought it was owned equally by the three original members or maybe even just JP and MP but Mike just paused and said, "Well, we never had to worry about it." I thought he just didnt want to get into it but from the lawsuit that almost happened it seems like it was really just an equal share. Part of why I was so shocked is that I had wrongly assumed he owned more of the name than he did so I didn't know what it meant for Dream Theater.
Someone asked JP in an interview if they would need to change the name and he just laughed and said " No. We own the name. ".
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I remember exactly where I was: at home, on a computer, and I read "Mike Portnoy & Dream Theater - 1985-2010"
I was shocked.
Mostly because when you see dates like 1992-2008 or 1965-2005, it means someone has died so I literally thought, "Did Portnoy fucking die?!"
Obviously Mike wasn't 25 years old at the time, but I clicked on it before I had a chance to process anything else and then I saw he quit. So a shocking 5 seconds of my life turned into a slightly less shocking but very surreal day.
A day later he changed the headline so I guess I wasn't the only one to think that and one or more people probably told him, "Dude, thats what you put on a tombstone...you should probably change that"
Funny thing was, he was on the Eddie Trunk show sometime that year talking about who owns what band's names and they asked him who owns the rights to DT's name. I always thought it was owned equally by the three original members or maybe even just JP and MP but Mike just paused and said, "Well, we never had to worry about it." I thought he just didnt want to get into it but from the lawsuit that almost happened it seems like it was really just an equal share. Part of why I was so shocked is that I had wrongly assumed he owned more of the name than he did so I didn't know what it meant for Dream Theater.
\
I surfed to the MP site and I think I just sat there and stared at the screen for ten minutes or so after reading it and then decided I needed to read it again to believe it. The rest of the day went by in a haze.
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I remember exactly where I was: at home, on a computer, and I read "Mike Portnoy & Dream Theater - 1985-2010"
I was shocked.
Mostly because when you see dates like 1992-2008 or 1965-2005, it means someone has died so I literally thought, "Did Portnoy fucking die?!"
Obviously Mike wasn't 25 years old at the time, but I clicked on it before I had a chance to process anything else and then I saw he quit. So a shocking 5 seconds of my life turned into a slightly less shocking but very surreal day.
A day later he changed the headline so I guess I wasn't the only one to think that and one or more people probably told him, "Dude, thats what you put on a tombstone...you should probably change that"
Funny thing was, he was on the Eddie Trunk show sometime that year talking about who owns what band's names and they asked him who owns the rights to DT's name. I always thought it was owned equally by the three original members or maybe even just JP and MP but Mike just paused and said, "Well, we never had to worry about it." I thought he just didnt want to get into it but from the lawsuit that almost happened it seems like it was really just an equal share. Part of why I was so shocked is that I had wrongly assumed he owned more of the name than he did so I didn't know what it meant for Dream Theater.
Someone asked JP in an interview if they would need to change the name and he just laughed and said " No. We own the name. ".
I don't think I'm talking out of school here, since I think all of this was put out there publicly in one form or another. Neither Mike or John owned the name itself personally, either in whole or in part. There is/was a corporation that owned the name and the various licenses and rights. And at the time of parting, there were negotiations as to what would go where and who would get what FROM THE CORPORATION. Almost all (all?) corporations have a organization agreement that covers this kind of eventuality in some form or another. The problem is when there is on-going revenue from before and after the 'break' and that is where the key negotiations happen. And I haven't even touched on the "legacy" aspect (would ADTOE have sold as much without MP's contributions leading up to that point? This was the basis of the suit between Ozzy and Sabbath a couple years ago).
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I can't believe someone would be petty / greedy enough to claim that " Their first album without me sold x amount due to brand recognition alone and because I was in the band that created that brand
- i'm therefore entitled to y amount "
Unless it was specifically stated in a contract somewhere that after any split or dissolution - that each member gets a percentage based on the brand recognition / contributions leading up til then.
I can't see that standing up in court at all otherwise -just on the basis of " I was in the band when they were famous therefore I want royalties from future albums ".
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I can't believe someone would be petty / greedy enough to claim that " Their first album without me sold x amount due to brand recognition alone and because I was in the band that created that brand
- i'm therefore entitled to y amount "
Unless it was specifically stated in a contract somewhere that after any split or dissolution - that each member gets a percentage based on the brand recognition / contributions leading up til then.
I can't see that standing up in court at all otherwise -just on the basis of " I was in the band when they were famous therefore I want royalties from future albums ".
Based on the previous history with former members, I'm ASSuming MP got a lump sum (like DS and KM). But I guess because MP has credits as a producer, written songs, publishing rights, longevity, etc. I think that's where it got a bit more complicated in a sense that MP wanted/deserved more money. Again, this is all speculation on my part.
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MP will always get royalties for songs he was involved with though PRS and MCPS and PPL and whatever acronym you want to use... It's just the law.
I did music business lessons on my degree course and I don't ever remember anything like " you're entitled to royalties on future music without you based solely on brand recognition ".
More like : " If you have no credits - you have no royalties ".
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I´m willing to bet that he put his foot down on all the old live bootleg recordings in the vault. You want the name? Fine. But you´re not gonna release anything from the vault. Something like that. Bands splits are a pain in the ass man.
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I´m willing to bet that he put his foot down on all the old live bootleg recordings in the vault. You want the name? Fine. But you´re not gonna release anything from the vault. Something like that. Bands splits are a pain in the ass man.
And I guess this is where us the fans, really suffered...The official bootlegs that may never be released.
Would love to see if DT and MP can agree to something for the boots to be released in the future. Something like MP 20% and DT 80% (with the boots that include MP of course).
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I'm sure there's still some fanboys somewhere who can tell you where they were and what they were doing when they got the news. It is a date which will live in infamy (for some).
I remember being logged in on his forum right when he posted his 'press release'. And I remember not being surprised by it......
I was on MP's forum as well when the press release was released; I remember being disappointed in all parties involved honestly. Thinking "can't these guys, that have been together so long, work things out between themselves?"
Then on the way home from work, I realized that there may be no more music; THAT is what bothered me. As I've said many times, I'm simply thrilled that my favorite band is still making records. All the other feelings are just academic IMO.
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:dangerwillrobinson: But I already Put Out My Press Release ! !
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I'll concur completely with TAC - the last two are considerably better than SC and BCSL. CONSIDERABLY.
I'll say what I said to Mike himself on the PN at Sea cruise... I think the split was best for both of them. For the band, they got to continue doing what 80% of them wanted to - continue working together, continue to keep the brand alive, continue their momentum (hello... two grammy nominations, festival headlining this summer), and not fade into obscurity through a 5 year break. It's not like they have enough mass appeal that 5 years wouldn't have had some kind of impact. Think they would've headlined all these festivals anytime soon if they'd been gone for 5 years?
Mike got to do what he wanted to do... flex his own creative muscle and let those juices flow. If he felt stale, the last 5 years have given him what he wanted (with mixed results)... NM Solo, Transatlantic, Flying Colors AMob, Winery Dogs, PSMS, Bigelf, and a handful of other studio contributions. Not to mention all the touring that went along with those acts. No way he would've been able to do 1/2 of that if he stayed with DT.
Also, let's not forget the positive impact from and for Mike Mangini.
So, was Mike right ... yes - for himself. He wasn't completely right. IMO, the band is in a far better spot now than they could've hoped to have been by "re-starting" right now.
As to the OP, My favorite thing on DTF is when commenters confuse their own personal opinions with the "consensus" of the entire body of DT's fans.
:tup
Exactly.
I think they are both in a better place now. Both sides are doing what they've always wanted to do.
I still think Mike became burnt out with continuing to steward the band. It just got to be too much and he needed a break from that.
I still remember leaving Radio City Music Hall April 1, 2006 and thinking "This is it. There's no way Mike will top this." It never got any better than that and it almost seems unfair to expect that it would. What was left to prove?
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I can't believe someone would be petty / greedy enough to claim that " Their first album without me sold x amount due to brand recognition alone and because I was in the band that created that brand
- i'm therefore entitled to y amount "
Unless it was specifically stated in a contract somewhere that after any split or dissolution - that each member gets a percentage based on the brand recognition / contributions leading up til then.
I can't see that standing up in court at all otherwise -just on the basis of " I was in the band when they were famous therefore I want royalties from future albums ".
Respectfully, I think you are oversimplifying it a little bit, and to your later post, "royalties" are not the only way to recoup cash on artistic releases. There is publishing, there are album royalties, there are single royalties, there are performance royalties... go look at "Dynasty", by Kiss. On the song "Charisma", it is credited to "Gene Simmons/Howard Marks". Howard Marks - an advertising guy and business manager - said the word to Gene, Gene wrote the (entire) song, then, in both credit for the inspiration, and to pay for other services rendered, Gene put Marks' name on the song and so he gets publishing dollars to this day. The Ozzy suit - which was settled with Tony, by the way - was for 50% of the trademark, and all proceeds earned by that trademark following the '97 reunion. That (could be) different than "royalties" which could apply to many different things.
The thing is, these things are impossible to figure out without looking at the agreements themselves, because, basically, the parties can agree on anything between themselves.
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Every bit of this. IMO, SC was their worst album, and still is. BCSL was not really much better.
Beg you pardon? TCOT?
It's the first album I bought and still am in love with. Opinions, opinions.
(Excuse my offtopicness : p)
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So far the split seems to have produced better results than worse for DT. Though for MP not so much. Winery dogs is a decent album and has a cool hard rock sound though I found the album songs lacking quite abit.
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The thing is, these things are impossible to figure out without looking at the agreements themselves, because, basically, the parties can agree on anything between themselves.
Right. But. Is there a precedent for basically just saying i'm entitled to x amount after I left the band despite having no more artistic input based on what i've contributed up til then ?
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I would love to read the DT/MP agreement.
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Every bit of this. IMO, SC was their worst album, and still is. BCSL was not really much better.
Beg you pardon? TCOT?
It's the first album I bought and still am in love with. Opinions, opinions.
(Excuse my offtopicness : p)
Nothing but love for TCOT. My issue with BCSL is that (for me) it's a giant "meh" sandwich. Two slices of awesome sauce, with a whole lotta "meh" in the middle.
EDIT: Really, SC and BCSL are the only two albums of the 12 where I don't love almost the entire album.
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Nothing but love for TCOT. My issue with BCSL is that (for me) it's a giant "meh" sandwich. Two slices of awesome sauce, with a whole lotta "meh" in the middle.
For me, it's TCOT and TBOT. That's all this album has to really offer.
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I would love to read the DT/MP agreement.
You, me, and almost everyone else.
One thing we do know is that MP isn't allowed to sell anything DT related as far as music goes. He said as much on his message board which is why he doesn't sell drum cams anymore. Occasionally he will give some away if you buy so much of his other DVDs.
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Every bit of this. IMO, SC was their worst album, and still is. BCSL was not really much better.
Beg you pardon? TCOT?
It's the first album I bought and still am in love with. Opinions, opinions.
(Excuse my offtopicness : p)
Nothing but love for TCOT. My issue with BCSL is that (for me) it's a giant "meh" sandwich. Two slices of awesome sauce, with a whole lotta "meh" in the middle.
BC&SL represents everything I love about DT (was my first album so that explains it no doubt :P). I was blown away by the massive compositions, and being my first exposure to the band I didn't have any ideas about how it 'ought to be' or that this sounded like filler and this part was weaker than that part. The whole thing was an amazing experience, and then I got onto the covers which was weird and a bit different but still really cool. I'd love them to do more bonus material like the covers and instrumental discs. Also, when going back through DTs discog, I didn't find another album as 'epic' and 'massive' as BC&SL until I got to SDOIT which probably has become my favourite album. Maybe TOT almost falls into this category too. (I pretty much went backwards through time when listening, which means yes WDADU was the last album I heard).
I like when the music's not afraid to do whatever, drag it out as long as you want, throw in some ambience or chuck an extended intro or outro in there, who cares about time or restrictions! First disc of Six Degrees is perfect for this and I feel they haven't done anything like it since BC&SL. So if the new album goes for much longer tracks again, I will be pretty happy about that. :biggrin:
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Nothing but love for TCOT. My issue with BCSL is that (for me) it's a giant "meh" sandwich. Two slices of awesome sauce, with a whole lotta "meh" in the middle.
Haha, I like the way you put that. I see. You don't like Wither? The only songs I don't dig of BC&SL are A Rite of Passage and The Best of Times. But the rest makes that up for 10 times.
Ontopic: I think it's irrelevant if he was right or not, but for the sake of an answer: I don't think so. The band seems really happy together and some great songs were created. I don't sense the lack of creativety or energy, which Mangini seems to have renewed.
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The thing is, these things are impossible to figure out without looking at the agreements themselves, because, basically, the parties can agree on anything between themselves.
Right. But. Is there a precedent for basically just saying i'm entitled to x amount after I left the band despite having no more artistic input based on what i've contributed up til then ?
Of course there is. For a while (though not presently) that was the case for Ace Frehley. It's pretty well documented that he was still part of the partnership for a while, and was receiving monies, until he decided to take a buyout.
There's no magic to this. I am sure - though I can't immediately call up an example - that there are bands like Yes (this is NOT an example, though, I know this) where there are two original members, and one amicably decides they don't really want to do this anymore and so doesn't contribute to the current recording and touring, but still takes a piece of the overall "Band Name, LLC". Wouldn't be surprised if KK Downing was in this position, or Malcolm Young, or Jon Lord's estate. Believe it or not, I wouldn't be surprised if Roger Waters makes SOMETHING on the post-Final Cut Floyd. Peter Gabriel is in this position with respect to the material up through and including "The Lamb...", as well as the re-releases of catalogue material; it's tricky here, because while he doesn't get a piece of "Invisible Touch" (for example) he is reaping the benefits indirectly. You can't tell me that not one person on the planet has loved "In Too Deep" and went out and bought "Selling England..." either on purpose or by mistake. Fish still has say on the pre-Season's End Marillion material (I know this isn't directly on point, since I don't believe Fish or Pete make anything off the current material).
I can't stress enough: the parties can agree to whatever they want to agree (within reason). "Common sense" or "fair" doesn't play in one iota, except in the sense that they do when the parties are in the room discussing and agreeing. It is foolhardy for us to look at a situation and say "well, common sense says..." or "it would be fair if...". These things do not exist.
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Nothing but love for TCOT. My issue with BCSL is that (for me) it's a giant "meh" sandwich. Two slices of awesome sauce, with a whole lotta "meh" in the middle.
Haha, I like the way you put that. I see. You don't like Wither? The only songs I don't dig of BC&SL are A Rite of Passage and The Best of Times. But the rest makes that up for 10 times.
Ontopic: I think it's irrelevant if he was right or not, but for the sake of an answer: I don't think so. The band seems really happy together and some great songs were created. I don't sense the lack of creativety or energy, which Mangini seems to have renewed.
I like Wither OK, but it got old on repeated listenings. I did say that it was an improvement over SC....which is, really....not good.
I guess BCSL just tends to sink to the bottom based on the strength of the other DT releases. Even FII has a greater ratio of really strong material.
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Even FII has a greater ratio of really strong material.
Hey we have a new poster on the forums ! Tell me - what do you think of Star Trek Nemesis ? :neverusethis:
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From The Dude to The Neighborhood. From "whatever man" to Mr. PC. From adult themed to young child themed.
Avatar changes just mess with people. Even when you know it is the same person, there is just a whole different vibe.
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Maybe someone should do a mashup of the two. Then I could be that?
That's a little like my personality IRL anyway. Like a clean cut, non-swearing, non-drug version of "The Dude"...
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Take your old "The Dude" avatar and put a Wal-Mart price tag in the corner. Solved.
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:rollin :rollin
The Dude "rolled back"???
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Thanks to Setlist Scotty for the mashup avatar!!
(https://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r47/jammindude/jammindude_zpsokv0eeqo.jpg~original)
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That's... disturbing.
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I normally keep avatars turned off anyway, so whatever.
But yeah, that image is frightening.
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Well, I think it's brilliant, and I LOLed heartily. Thank you, Scotty!!
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Re the original question I think the last 2 albums are their best!
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I do know that if Mr. Portnoy were there still, as fans, we would have been treated to one hell of a 2015, you know the 30th anniversary. To me, a new album in 2016 misses the mark. Call me ungrateful or to "Stop living in the past man", but I expected alot this year from my favorite band.
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Yeah when Metallica celebrated their 30th - they played The Fillmore for four nights and played every song they'd ever recorded as Metallica ***. Got Jason Newsted and Dave Mustaine back and
played with them again and had a ton of guest musicians to play with them too.
DT played one song from every album.
*** Ok maybe not EVERY song - but I think they played every song that hadn't been played live before then.
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I honestly could care less that the band didn't do much for their 30th anniversary. The biggest reason being they aren't in the touring phase. Second, I don't want them to rush an album out in 2015 just so it coincides with their 30th. Third, I just turned 31 and didn't become a fan until around 2000 so I'm sure the anniversary means more to the band than it does to most fans. I'm sure IF MP never quit then there could have been something cool out of ytse jam but honestly it doesn't bother me.
And as far as Metallica goes. They should have played a show every day of the year considering the can only put out an album once a decade. I'll care about them again when they focus on making music and not just playing it.
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I honestly could care less that the band didn't do much for their 30th anniversary. The biggest reason being they aren't in the touring phase. Second, I don't want them to rush an album out in 2015 just so it coincides with their 30th. Third, I just turned 31 and didn't become a fan until around 2000 so I'm sure the anniversary means more to the band than it does to most fans. I'm sure IF MP never quit then there could have been something cool out of ytse jam but honestly it doesn't bother me.
And as far as Metallica goes. They should have played a show every day of the year considering the can only put out an album once a decade. I'll care about them again when they focus on making music and not just playing it.
Agree on both counts.
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If Portnoy was still in the band, we'd probably have got a YtseJam release(Or maybe a full version of Live In Tokyo or something), the 30th anniversary would be worked into the main tour, and that's about it.
To be honest, all we really lost when Portnoy left was the YtseJam releases. The rest of the band have taken his responsibilities nicely, and Portnoy is happy to be working on his billions of different projects. So ultimately, it's all turned out fine.
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I do know that if Mr. Portnoy were there still, as fans, we would have been treated to one hell of a 2015, you know the 30th anniversary. To me, a new album in 2016 misses the mark. Call me ungrateful or to "Stop living in the past man", but I expected alot this year from my favorite band.
Stop being ungrateful and living in the past.
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Stop being ungrateful and living in the past.
:lol
But, now, seriously: exactly..
The last time we had to wait three years for a new album was after SFAM, and the result was 6DoiT, so I wouldn't be so frustrated in advance for something like that..
I do know that if Mr. Portnoy were there still, as fans, we would have been treated to one hell of a 2015, you know the 30th anniversary. To me, a new album in 2016 misses the mark. Call me ungrateful or to "Stop living in the past man", but I expected alot this year from my favorite band.
Yeah when Metallica celebrated their 30th - they played The Fillmore for four nights and played every song they'd ever recorded as Metallica ***. Got Jason Newsted and Dave Mustaine back and
played with them again and had a ton of guest musicians to play with them too.
DT played one song from every album.
NE..
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Even saying three years is a stretch, because SFAM came out near the end of 1999 (late October) and 6DOIT the beginning of 2002 (January), so it was more like a little over two years. Same thing here. It's not a big deal, especially considering they are taking longer to make this album and they did do a short tour leg this past summer.
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If Portnoy was still in the band, we'd probably have got a YtseJam release(Or maybe a full version of Live In Tokyo or something), the 30th anniversary would be worked into the main tour, and that's about it.
To be honest, all we really lost when Portnoy left was the YtseJam releases. The rest of the band have taken his responsibilities nicely, and Portnoy is happy to be working on his billions of different projects. So ultimately, it's all turned out fine.
Agree. I still wish there was more Ytsejam stuff but I'm pretty satisfied with everything else they've done so I can live with that.
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I think it's always right for a band to take a break. Even though as a fan I hate the idea.
It would be healthy for them to rest and recharge, and/or tinker with their side projects for five years, and then get back together again, with fresh ideas.
I loved ADToE, but the latest album does nothing for me. It sounds like a generic rehash of everything they did in the past. It just doesn't excite me anymore. I hate when that happens with any of my favorite bands. And it usually happens.
So, I'm all for breaks. Portnoy was right.
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The last time we had to wait three years for a new album was after SFAM, and the result was 6DoiT, so I wouldn't be so frustrated in advance for something like that..
That was 2 years and 3 months to be precise :tup.
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I loved ADToF
A Dramatic Turn Of Flans ?
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:rollin
Fixed. :)
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If Portnoy was still in the band, we'd probably have got a YtseJam release(Or maybe a full version of Live In Tokyo or something), the 30th anniversary would be worked into the main tour, and that's about it.
To be honest, all we really lost when Portnoy left was the YtseJam releases. The rest of the band have taken his responsibilities nicely, and Portnoy is happy to be working on his billions of different projects. So ultimately, it's all turned out fine.
I don't agree with this at all. Not even close. James was all over about how "everyone was going to step up and take over to cover for Mike", but there must be a shit ton of behind the scenes stuff going on, because I'm not seeing any of it. A twat every couple month from JP does not equate to "stepping up and covering for what Portnoy did". When is the last time they did a cover show? When is the last time they dropped in a nugget or two on a setlist? When is the last time there was something like the "release a cover every two weeks until the album is out"?
And I didn't even mention the Ytsejam releases (though that too).
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When is the last time they did a cover show? When is the last time they dropped in a nugget or two on a setlist?
Those are obviously things that were important to MP, who made the setlists, and the rest of the band never really cared for them all that much. So why WOULD they do them?
When is the last time there was something like the "release a cover every two weeks until the album is out"?
To be fair, they only did this once anyway, for BC&SL, when they recorded a disc's worth of covers in the studio.
A thing, again, which was definitely MP-driven.
Not sure why they should be held accountable for not doing stuff that only Portnoy wanted to do, now that he is no longer there to urge them to do it.
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Yeah, it sure looks like MP was full of exciting ideas and the rest, wel....sort of went along with it because, well, Mike, really. Once he was gone, no one seems too eager to 'step up' and go the extra mile for the fans.
It sort of makes DT just 'one of those bands' now for me.
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I think it's always right for a band to take a break. Even though as a fan I hate the idea.
It would be healthy for them to rest and recharge, and/or tinker with their side projects for five years, and then get back together again, with fresh ideas.
No one can know for sure if that break would have meaning a breather from the band, or an unnecesary recess that could've ended up blocking them on a compositional level, or even separating the band for good.. (I know this latter posibility is a extreme one, but there's always that risk with bands taking a break, that could last 'only' five years, but also six, seven, etc..)
So I don't believe in the equation "break+go back together after being separated for so long=fresh ideas".. And I'm saying this, but also the band has said it.. They work better being (and I must ironically use here MP's words) in constant motion..
Yeah, it sure looks like MP was full of exciting ideas and the rest, wel....sort of went along with it because, well, Mike, really. Once he was gone, no one seems too eager to 'step up' and go the extra mile for the fans.
It sort of makes DT just 'one of those bands' now for me.
Yeah, maybe, but that's making THEM happy now.. Shouldn't we be happy for that?..
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Yeah, it sure looks like MP was full of exciting ideas and the rest, wel....sort of went along with it because, well, Mike, really. Once he was gone, no one seems too eager to 'step up' and go the extra mile for the fans.
It sort of makes DT just 'one of those bands' now for me.
Sadly, this for me too.
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When is the last time they did a cover show? When is the last time they dropped in a nugget or two on a setlist?
Those are obviously things that were important to MP, who made the setlists, and the rest of the band never really cared for them all that much. So why WOULD they do them?
When is the last time there was something like the "release a cover every two weeks until the album is out"?
To be fair, they only did this once anyway, for BC&SL, when they recorded a disc's worth of covers in the studio.
A thing, again, which was definitely MP-driven.
Not sure why they should be held accountable for not doing stuff that only Portnoy wanted to do, now that he is no longer there to urge them to do it.
One, because they explicitly said they would, and two, the comment was something along the lines of "there's nothing different except for the Ytsejam releases", when there clearly is, even if there is a rational explanation for them.
Look, I don't expect them to copy all the things that MP did. I agree they are their own band now. But I don't understand why someone who held those things dear has to put up with nonsense like the sarcasm that just followed my post because I'm not on board with it (that's how I took Cyclopssss post, even though that is EXACTLY how I feel). I've not once disparaged DT for their choices (well, that isn't 100% accurate) and I'm still on their fan forum, and I'm still buying their records. But they used to be a unique band out of 100's I listen to, and now they are one of many bands I listen to.
Why does it have to be all (MP FANBOY!) or nothing (He was a egomaniacal douchebag who had to go and good riddance!)? I can miss those things and note them for the record without it being a blasphemy.
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Most bands don't do a lot of stuff like that, and it was definitely MP who drove it when he was with DT. Regardless, it was something that many fans had come to appreciate and something which set DT apart from the crowd, so at the very least, it's disappointing to a lot of fans that this did not continue. I didn't specifically get a vibe that all this stuff would continue, but after Mike left, statements from JP, JLB and the others did seem to imply that the others would step up a bit and (at least partially) fill the gap.
DT is now just like any other band. Tour, make an album, take a break. Or maybe it's make an album, tour, take a break. Post on Facebook or Twitter once in a while, if they think of it. A lot of that "extra" stuff that Mike did gave the band a unique personality, and that's all gone.
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When is the last time they did a cover show? When is the last time they dropped in a nugget or two on a setlist?
Those are obviously things that were important to MP, who made the setlists, and the rest of the band never really cared for them all that much. So why WOULD they do them?
When is the last time there was something like the "release a cover every two weeks until the album is out"?
To be fair, they only did this once anyway, for BC&SL, when they recorded a disc's worth of covers in the studio.
A thing, again, which was definitely MP-driven.
Not sure why they should be held accountable for not doing stuff that only Portnoy wanted to do, now that he is no longer there to urge them to do it.
One, because they explicitly said they would, and two, the comment was something along the lines of "there's nothing different except for the Ytsejam releases", when there clearly is, even if there is a rational explanation for them.
Look, I don't expect them to copy all the things that MP did. I agree they are their own band now. But I don't understand why someone who held those things dear has to put up with nonsense like the sarcasm that just followed my post because I'm not on board with it (that's how I took Cyclopssss post, even though that is EXACTLY how I feel). I've not once disparaged DT for their choices (well, that isn't 100% accurate) and I'm still on their fan forum, and I'm still buying their records. But they used to be a unique band out of 100's I listen to, and now they are one of many bands I listen to.
Why does it have to be all (MP FANBOY!) or nothing (He was a egomaniacal douchebag who had to go and good riddance!)? I can miss those things and note them for the record without it being a blasphemy.
It certainly doesn't have to be all or nothing. I have no idea why anyone would think that. It's really immature.
MP certainly used to communicate directly to the fanbase about upcoming projects more often than the other guys, and that hasn't picked up nearly as much as many fans would have liked. I have it on good authority that this is on purpose for the upcoming album - the band is basically on lockdown mode, not releasing any info, and that is their purpose at the moment.
And the lack of Ytsejam releases can certainly be seen as a sore spot, but MP has all the old "stash" (although most non-live performance stuff has already been released), so the only stuff that could be released by the current band would be new live performances - which wouldn't make much sense, because they have issued official live releases for both albums/tours. Any Ytsejam release would just be repeated material.
Frankly, for every fan who liked the cover songs during live performances, I would wager that there were more who would rather have had another song by Dream Theater - the band they had paid to see. Not to mention the performances of entire cover albums, especially when they weren't announced beforehand. If it was an album you happened to like, then lucky you. If not, then you got fucked for half a concert - money down the drain.
What I miss is the variation of setlists, and the non-playing to backing tracks, which would occasionally result in variations/improvisations of songs, or extended instrumental breaks, or other off-the-cuff nonsense. That appears to be gone, and for me, is the biggest thing I miss from MP's time in the band.
However, on the other hand, we now have impeccably performed concerts, with few if any flaws, and they are still incredibly entertaining. The band is firing on all cylinders musically, even with the drawbacks I listed.
In the end, its all opinions, and there is no right or wrong. But a lot of the "drawing lines" crap is ridiculous.
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Frankly, for every fan who liked the cover songs during live performances, I would wager that there were more who would rather have had another song by Dream Theater - the band they had paid to see. Not to mention the performances of entire cover albums, especially when they weren't announced beforehand. If it was an album you happened to like, then lucky you. If not, then you got fucked for half a concert - money down the drain.
What I miss is the variation of setlists, and the non-playing to backing tracks, which would occasionally result in variations/improvisations of songs, or extended instrumental breaks, or other off-the-cuff nonsense. That appears to be gone, and for me, is the biggest thing I miss from MP's time in the band.
However, on the other hand, we now have impeccably performed concerts, with few if any flaws, and they are still incredibly entertaining. The band is firing on all cylinders musically, even with the drawbacks I listed.
I agree 100% with all of this.
If I was at a show, and they covered a whole album, even if I liked that album I'd be irritated because that's not the stuff I paid to see. The only cover off BCSL I listen to is "Odyssey", because I like their version much better. Well, that and the instrumental Rush medley from the 90s, that's cool. Really the only things I miss about MP are the live variations on songs (extended sections, improvised jams, etc), the variable set-lists, and the sound of his kits (not his playing, but the drums and cymbals sound much better than MM's to me).
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I actually like the covers disc from BC&SL better than the album of BC&SL.
But it was a bonus feature, and I knew what I was getting when I got the deluxe version, rather than just the regular CD.
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When is the last time they did a cover show? When is the last time they dropped in a nugget or two on a setlist?
Those are obviously things that were important to MP, who made the setlists, and the rest of the band never really cared for them all that much. So why WOULD they do them?
When is the last time there was something like the "release a cover every two weeks until the album is out"?
To be fair, they only did this once anyway, for BC&SL, when they recorded a disc's worth of covers in the studio.
A thing, again, which was definitely MP-driven.
Not sure why they should be held accountable for not doing stuff that only Portnoy wanted to do, now that he is no longer there to urge them to do it.
One, because they explicitly said they would, and two, the comment was something along the lines of "there's nothing different except for the Ytsejam releases", when there clearly is, even if there is a rational explanation for them.
Look, I don't expect them to copy all the things that MP did. I agree they are their own band now. But I don't understand why someone who held those things dear has to put up with nonsense like the sarcasm that just followed my post because I'm not on board with it (that's how I took Cyclopssss post, even though that is EXACTLY how I feel). I've not once disparaged DT for their choices (well, that isn't 100% accurate) and I'm still on their fan forum, and I'm still buying their records. But they used to be a unique band out of 100's I listen to, and now they are one of many bands I listen to.
Why does it have to be all (MP FANBOY!) or nothing (He was a egomaniacal douchebag who had to go and good riddance!)? I can miss those things and note them for the record without it being a blasphemy.
It certainly doesn't have to be all or nothing. I have no idea why anyone would think that. It's really immature.
MP certainly used to communicate directly to the fanbase about upcoming projects more often than the other guys, and that hasn't picked up nearly as much as many fans would have liked. I have it on good authority that this is on purpose for the upcoming album - the band is basically on lockdown mode, not releasing any info, and that is their purpose at the moment.
And the lack of Ytsejam releases can certainly be seen as a sore spot, but MP has all the old "stash" (although most non-live performance stuff has already been released), so the only stuff that could be released by the current band would be new live performances - which wouldn't make much sense, because they have issued official live releases for both albums/tours. Any Ytsejam release would just be repeated material.
Frankly, for every fan who liked the cover songs during live performances, I would wager that there were more who would rather have had another song by Dream Theater - the band they had paid to see. Not to mention the performances of entire cover albums, especially when they weren't announced beforehand. If it was an album you happened to like, then lucky you. If not, then you got fucked for half a concert - money down the drain.
What I miss is the variation of setlists, and the non-playing to backing tracks, which would occasionally result in variations/improvisations of songs, or extended instrumental breaks, or other off-the-cuff nonsense. That appears to be gone, and for me, is the biggest thing I miss from MP's time in the band.
However, on the other hand, we now have impeccably performed concerts, with few if any flaws, and they are still incredibly entertaining. The band is firing on all cylinders musically, even with the drawbacks I listed.
In the end, its all opinions, and there is no right or wrong. But a lot of the "drawing lines" crap is ridiculous.
Not for the first time you are 100% right.
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Most bands don't do a lot of stuff like that, and it was definitely MP who drove it when he was with DT. Regardless, it was something that many fans had come to appreciate and something which set DT apart from the crowd, so at the very least, it's disappointing to a lot of fans that this did not continue. I didn't specifically get a vibe that all this stuff would continue, but after Mike left, statements from JP, JLB and the others did seem to imply that the others would step up a bit and (at least partially) fill the gap.
DT is now just like any other band. Tour, make an album, take a break. Or maybe it's make an album, tour, take a break. Post on Facebook or Twitter once in a while, if they think of it. A lot of that "extra" stuff that Mike did gave the band a unique personality, and that's all gone.
Unfortunately, soooo true. DT's still my favorite band, but they no longer stand head and shoulder above the rest like they used to.
MP certainly used to communicate directly to the fanbase about upcoming projects more often than the other guys, and that hasn't picked up nearly as much as many fans would have liked. I have it on good authority that this is on purpose for the upcoming album - the band is basically on lockdown mode, not releasing any info, and that is their purpose at the moment.
That's great for this album, but we're going on 5 years now and since MP's left there has never been anything remotely close to the communication with the fan base that DT did. So fine, if they want to do that for this specific album (as they similarly did for SFaM), great, but that doesn't excuse the fact that they haven't done a lot more for the 2 previous albums.
And the lack of Ytsejam releases can certainly be seen as a sore spot, but MP has all the old "stash" (although most non-live performance stuff has already been released), so the only stuff that could be released by the current band would be new live performances - which wouldn't make much sense, because they have issued official live releases for both albums/tours. Any Ytsejam release would just be repeated material.
If they'd rotate the setlists as in the old days (which I know you bemoan later in your post), then they'd have something more to put out there for the fans. But really, they could put out the demos, early versions or "Making Of releases" forADoTE and the s/t, but they haven't bothered to do that either.
Frankly, for every fan who liked the cover songs during live performances, I would wager that there were more who would rather have had another song by Dream Theater - the band they had paid to see. Not to mention the performances of entire cover albums, especially when they weren't announced beforehand. If it was an album you happened to like, then lucky you. If not, then you got fucked for half a concert - money down the drain.
While I disagree, I follow what you're saying for the cover album; only thing is that it was a fairly well established fact of when it was going to be done, never mind the fact that they did play another 90 minutes or more of their own material. There's plenty of bands out there that would only do a 90 minute headlining set, so I look at that as a bonus. In any case while there are probably more fans that are not into the covers than otherwise, I'd wager there's still a higher percentage of fans that do enjoy them than you probably give credit for, altho we'll never know either way.
However, on the other hand, we now have impeccably performed concerts, with few if any flaws, and they are still incredibly entertaining. The band is firing on all cylinders musically, even with the drawbacks I listed.
Impeccably performed, but overly-rehearsed to the point where they could perform the show in their sleep, especially with the click track being used. So I don't see that as a positive the way you do.
quote author=hefdaddy42 link=topic=44348.msg2013107#msg2013107 date=1443112718]
In the end, its all opinions, and there is no right or wrong. But a lot of the "drawing lines" crap is ridiculous.
[/quote]
But unfortunately, that drawing of lines exactly what happens far more often than not, especially when people like Stads or I speak up and don't agree with the masses on this board.
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Yeah, it sure looks like MP was full of exciting ideas and the rest, wel....sort of went along with it because, well, Mike, really. Once he was gone, no one seems too eager to 'step up' and go the extra mile for the fans.
It sort of makes DT just 'one of those bands' now for me.
Some of my favorite bands are "one of those bands" so I have absolutely no problem with that. The only things that changed for me are that now other members of the band are doing far more interviews, for some reason Jordan decided not to do the quick 20 second updates from the studio with his iPhone (but on the plus side we don't have to hear him say "I'll see you....on the rooooad"), and we don't get more Ytsejam releases, although we did get a free live album.
Other than that, I still buy everything they release (or get it for free thanks to their generosity), love hearing updates but don't live and die for them, I see them once per tour leg, and I don't have to get pissed off that they played a song I wanted to hear the night before but not at the show I was at.
I like them just as much if not more than I did five years ago.
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Mike's OCD was great for us fans. I wonder because his life was DT and in the end, he was burnt out.
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Mike's OCD was great for us fans. I wonder because his life was DT and in the end, he was burnt out.
I still think MP could have delegated responsibilities. Not sure why he felt that if he didn't do it, then it was going to be wrong. But JLB's and MP's relationship was definitely strained and here is where I think a break and sorting issues would have helped (not a 5 yr hiatus though).
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I think Mike spread himself too thin with side projects. It's like, the feeling of sex with someone new. All of a sudden, the wife, DT in this instant gets put on the back burner.
I miss Mike no doubt but I do look at it as mostly his problems. , not the rest of the band.
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But really, they could put out the demos, early versions or "Making Of releases" forADoTE and the s/t, but they haven't bothered to do that either.
I'd be very curious to hear those, personally. I think a lot of people would. What I'd really like to hear would be all the improvised jams from the drummer auditions, although I doubt those will ever be released sadly...
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Breaking news: according to many comments above none of this would exist:
-The Spirit Carries On's Documentary
-ADToE's snippets
-Q&A (wasn't this communication with the fan base?)
-Happy Holidays
-Two damn 3 hours DVD/Blu-Ray!!!
-Live versions: Metropolis pt 1 extended, the LTE/KC night, JP's solos, JR's solos, MM's solos (one of them in the middle of EM), Trial of Tears' improv, Awake and SFaM's birthdays, the resurrected songs.. And having into account that they supposedly had given up doing this kind of stuff..
And this is only what I can remember or what I know.. All this, when a 'regular' band (or 'one of those bands', whatever that really means) would've done the records (none of them so long btw), the tours (not an "an evening with" btw) and maybe some social network 'interaction' and that's it..
Five Ten years later, yes, Portnoy was right: everything is never enough..
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:metal
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:tup
And that's also funny because I thought to quote you at first but then I completely forgot it..
I like them just as much if not more than I did five years ago.
FTFM.. Yeah, I love them more today than then.. Mostly due to both shows I went in this period (2012's LaLP and 2014's Mandarine Park -open air-, the latter being the best show of my life until now), but also for the two great albums they've done.. Much more good than I was expecting..
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Each time I've seen DT since 2000, it has been a great show but the last 3 times I've seen them have exceeded expectations. They were tighter, had better production, and clearly were enjoying themselves more. It was infectious.
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I think hef pretty much nailed it, but at this point it just looks like some will never let us forget that the band once said they would do everything Portnoy did, like they swore under oath or something. :lol :lol
In other words: Mike Portnoy is gone. The band is not going to do every little thing he did. Get over it. :biggrin:
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I didn't know they said such a thing.. Someone has the link to that interview?..
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Why? You don't believe Kev? I will second what Kev said and..
Why can't anyone surf the Web themselves? :lol
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;D Sorry, I tried and failed.. What I supposed to write in the search engine?.. :justjen
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:lol
Well, they did. Kev is right but they are taking a different tact with this album and it interests me.
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I didn't know they said such a thing.. Someone has the link to that interview?..
There were a couple interviews and I think JP might have even responded directly on his message board.
I wouldn't know where to look for the interviews now but from memory I think JP just said something about dividing up the responsibilities between band members. Also, Jordan responded when asked by an interview, "It's not rocket science." I remember people getting upset by his comment, as if he was trying to minimize MP cutting himself wide open so we could watch him bleed.
Basically, the band was pretty vague but alluded to them taking over what MP did. As Kev said, it's not like they swore under oath. Also, they never said "We are going to every single things MP did." In fact, they kind of tried to brush it off. When asked about cover albums they (don't remember which member) said, "Well thats was Mike's thing so I don't know when we will do that again." Doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement for continuing with that gimmick.
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I wouldn't know where to look for the interviews now but from memory I think JP just said something about dividing up the responsibilities between band members. Also, Jordan responded when asked by an interview, "It's not rocket science." I remember people getting upset by his comment, as if he was trying to minimize MP cutting himself wide open so we could watch him bleed.
Okay, that legitimately made me laugh out loud. :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
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I still think MP could have delegated responsibilities. Not sure why he felt that if he didn't do it, then it was going to be wrong. But JLB's and MP's relationship was definitely strained and here is where I think a break and sorting issues would have helped (not a 5 yr hiatus though).
Good points - honestly, I wish he would've delegated some of those responsibilities. The funny thing is, with the million different bands he's been involved with since then, he hasn't taken on a similar role in any of them. I wonder why - did he learn from his DT experience or is there another reason. Definitely something I hope to ask him next time I see him (which probably won't be for some time).
But really, they could put out the demos, early versions or "Making Of releases" forADoTE and the s/t, but they haven't bothered to do that either.
I'd be very curious to hear those, personally. I think a lot of people would. What I'd really like to hear would be all the improvised jams from the drummer auditions, although I doubt those will ever be released sadly...
You know, I completely forgot about all the other footage left on the cutting room floor from the drummer auditions, but yeah, I'd love to hear/see all that stuff too. I'm guessing part of the reason is trying to get the OKs from the other drummers, but quite frankly, I'd bet part of the reason is because of some of the awesome things that happened with the other drummers that would make the fans second guess Mangini as being the best choice.
Breaking news: according to many comments above none of this would exist:
Good point - there have been some things, but by and large nowhere near as much as what DT did while MP was in the band.
I think JP just said something about dividing up the responsibilities between band members. Also, Jordan responded when asked by an interview, "It's not rocket science." I remember people getting upset by his comment, as if he was trying to minimize MP cutting himself wide open so we could watch him bleed.
Cute post. :P But honestly, when JR made that comment, it really does sound like he's poo-poo'ing all that MP did for the band, as if it won't take much effort to continue doing it. Seeing as they're only doing a fraction of it now, maybe it's more rocket science than they care to admit! :-*
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Yeah, it sure looks like MP was full of exciting ideas and the rest, wel....sort of went along with it because, well, Mike, really. Once he was gone, no one seems too eager to 'step up' and go the extra mile for the fans.
It sort of makes DT just 'one of those bands' now for me.
Sadly, this for me too.
Yeah, same. I still love the guys, but I feel fairly confident that I wouldn't have bothered getting into the DTF community (back in the DT.net days of course) if the band then had been like they are now in terms of all that extra-curricular stuff. Other than for a short period, I never really thought they were especially special in terms of the music, it was all the other stuff that made them stand out. Now they're just a really great band but that's it.
But that's fine, all that extra stuff obviously don't come too naturally to them and the music is still strong so it doesn't bother me at all.
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Okay, I agree with many comments (especially hefdaddy's), but there's a certain view I miss here. It's irrelevant what we all like/dislike, what we all want/not want and what we all think what makes a band special. In my opinion, it's about their views and feelings and how they want the band to be. I like to see a reflection of who and what they are in what I see on the outside. It's the healthiest for them, the music and automatically the fanbase. It would look fake and strained (macaroni) if they try really hard to do what MP did, since it's apparently not their thing. And really, everything is fine when they're happy. It's all about the music in the end.
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If they'd rotate the setlists as in the old days (which I know you bemoan later in your post), then they'd have something more to put out there for the fans.
???
What I miss is the variation of setlists, and the non-playing to backing tracks, which would occasionally result in variations/improvisations of songs, or extended instrumental breaks, or other off-the-cuff nonsense. That appears to be gone, and for me, is the biggest thing I miss from MP's time in the band.
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It certainly doesn't have to be all or nothing. I have no idea why anyone would think that. It's really immature.
And
In the end, its all opinions, and there is no right or wrong. But a lot of the "drawing lines" crap is ridiculous.
You're quoting me, but I don't understand who you're talking to. I do understand those factual points, and will be the first to say "take what you like and disregard what you don't". I am in full agreement that some of this is immature, and that we don't have to "draw lines" (that was exactly my point), but many fans are. The evidence is right here in this thread. I don't know how many times I've had to write the same post as Orbert (we are in perfect lock step with regards to the band). I'm not sure I agree they are "firing on all cylinders" (that implies the highest level of output; I tend to view them more as on "cruise control" at this point) but that's a nit.
It's not better, it's not worse, it's just different. It just so happens that the difference doesn't work quite as well for me (though that's not at all to say it doesn't work at all). That should be okay, in the same way that Sabbath with Dio was different than Sabbath with Ozzy. Or Kiss with makeup was different than Kiss without.
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I am not sure taking a break would have really helped the band much, and I think the effect of Portnoy's presence or absence is largely overstated. The truth is that they're a pretty old band. They're really not expected to be making good albums anymore. That's why A Dramatic Turn of Events was so exceptional. I was not expecting them to make something that good, and was very pleasantly surprised by it. The fact that S/T ended up being just as unremarkable as all of their albums after Train of Thought but prior to Portnoy's departure was disappointing, but it really shouldn't be. Anything good that they produce at this point is way more than I would ever expect.
In four years it will be the 20th anniversary of Scenes From A Memory. Three amazing albums is a lot for one band. Many bands only have a single good song. So, changing setlists every show? If you're pushing 50 and you're making money by going up on stage with a guitar, you should get a medal just for that.
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Good points - honestly, I wish he would've delegated some of those responsibilities. The funny thing is, with the million different bands he's been involved with since then, he hasn't taken on a similar role in any of them. I wonder why - did he learn from his DT experience or is there another reason. Definitely something I hope to ask him next time I see him (which probably won't be for some time).
I think the biggest difference is that DT was "his baby", whereas everything he's doing now are basically collaborations. He had a vision for what DT was going to be, and how things would work, and it seems that when things started tipping a balance against him, he decided to call the time out.
The fact of the matter is that while I truly believe MP puts everything he has into whatever he does, he is nowhere near as truly invested as he was with DT.
You know, I completely forgot about all the other footage left on the cutting room floor from the drummer auditions, but yeah, I'd love to hear/see all that stuff too. I'm guessing part of the reason is trying to get the OKs from the other drummers, but quite frankly, I'd bet part of the reason is because of some of the awesome things that happened with the other drummers that would make the fans second guess Mangini as being the best choice.
I would expect, and am frankly disappointed that we have not gotten the Mangini Audition released in some form.
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If they'd rotate the setlists as in the old days (which I know you bemoan later in your post), then they'd have something more to put out there for the fans.
???
What I miss is the variation of setlists, and the non-playing to backing tracks, which would occasionally result in variations/improvisations of songs, or extended instrumental breaks, or other off-the-cuff nonsense. That appears to be gone, and for me, is the biggest thing I miss from MP's time in the band.
Not sure what the confusion is - my comment about you bemoaning the rotated setlists is in reference to what you quoted in bold-face type. Or are you happy with the static setlists and I misunderstood? Either way, my point is: if the band rotated their setlists like they had on past tours, there would be shows they could release on Ytsejam Records.
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Either way, my point is: if the band rotated their setlists like they had on past tours, there would be shows they could release on Ytsejam Records.
Scott, I'm with you completely on the rotating setlists, BUT, There have been plenty they could release as a Ytsejam release, be it from the 2011 summer tour, or even this past summer's tour.
Actually that's not "plenty" :lol but there is material.
After the 2013 Happy Holidays release, is it out of line to hope for one of these 30th Anniversary could be released as a download this Christmas?
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After the 2013 Happy Holidays release, is it out of line to hope for one of these 30th Anniversary could be released as a download this Christmas?
That thought had definitely crossed my mind more than once. Guess we'll have to wait until December to find out!
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I would expect, and am frankly disappointed that we have not gotten the Mangini Audition released in some form.
Well, basically the full improvised jam is out there at least.
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I would expect, and am frankly disappointed that we have not gotten the Mangini Audition released in some form.
Well, basically the full improvised jam is out there at least.
Where?
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If they'd rotate the setlists as in the old days (which I know you bemoan later in your post), then they'd have something more to put out there for the fans.
???
What I miss is the variation of setlists, and the non-playing to backing tracks, which would occasionally result in variations/improvisations of songs, or extended instrumental breaks, or other off-the-cuff nonsense. That appears to be gone, and for me, is the biggest thing I miss from MP's time in the band.
Not sure what the confusion is - my comment about you bemoaning the rotated setlists is in reference to what you quoted in bold-face type. Or are you happy with the static setlists and I misunderstood? Either way, my point is: if the band rotated their setlists like they had on past tours, there would be shows they could release on Ytsejam Records.
Never mind, confusion on MY part. We are in agreement on this.
After the 2013 Happy Holidays release, is it out of line to hope for one of these 30th Anniversary could be released as a download this Christmas?
If they really just finished recording, and still have mixing, mastering, artwork, production, and promotion to go, I would actually be shocked if they also found time to prepare a release like that by Christmas.
But it would be awesome if it happened.
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After the 2013 Happy Holidays release, is it out of line to hope for one of these 30th Anniversary could be released as a download this Christmas?
If they really just finished recording, and still have mixing, mastering, artwork, production, and promotion to go, I would actually be shocked if they also found time to prepare a release like that by Christmas.
But it would be awesome if it happened.
MP would get it done!
:neverusethis:
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Where?
Here you go!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tZ-go2CXqo
There are some interview clips mixed in occasionally but like 90% of it is there.
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Where?
Here you go!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tZ-go2CXqo
There are some interview clips mixed in occasionally but like 90% of it is there.
Oh OK. Thank you. Not sure how I missed this.
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After the 2013 Happy Holidays release, is it out of line to hope for one of these 30th Anniversary could be released as a download this Christmas?
If they really just finished recording, and still have mixing, mastering, artwork, production, and promotion to go, I would actually be shocked if they also found time to prepare a release like that by Christmas.
But it would be awesome if it happened.
MP would get it done!
:neverusethis:
Dammit
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I think JP just said something about dividing up the responsibilities between band members. Also, Jordan responded when asked by an interview, "It's not rocket science." I remember people getting upset by his comment, as if he was trying to minimize MP cutting himself wide open so we could watch him bleed.
Cute post. :P
Thanks. Glad you've taken care of your anger problem even if it has moved to casual flirtation. Flattering really.
But honestly, when JR made that comment, it really does sound like he's poo-poo'ing all that MP did for the band, as if it won't take much effort to continue doing it. Seeing as they're only doing a fraction of it now, maybe it's more rocket science than they care to admit! :-*
Yeah, it's only a fraction but what fraction? As ToT indicated in the list he drew up, I would say maybe four-fifths. Not too shabby.
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Here you go!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tZ-go2CXqo
There are some interview clips mixed in occasionally but like 90% of it is there.
Thanks. So many ways to get information, that the stuff that is honestly worth the time slips right on by.
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Delegating is tougher than people think. If you have a very high standard, you are more than likely going to be very upset with the delegated output. The worst is when you delegate something recurring and the person acts like they need to be given the task anew every repeat instead of just having the responsibility to set some type of reminder (or just get used to it being their responsibility).
And delegating to an equal and not a *minion* :blush is near impossible. Different is ok ... as long as the results still occur. Different as in inferior ... ugh. It isn't just about OCD and having impossible standards being the problem.
Judging by the post MP output, I don't doubt this was part of the problem. And I see no reason why it should fall on JP. Let the dude concentrate on the music creation/production as it would clearly all fall apart without him.
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I can't remember if I posted in this thread or not. Anyways.
MP was onto something. While DT put out a great album (ADTOE) and a mediocre one (DT12), overall the band needs to let back. Their style seems to be getting stale and irrelevant. On DT12, they showed they can still write good songs; however, it's like they force every song to be prog metal or some derivative. It's starting to become boring.
Maybe not even a break. Just choose to write whatever and not stick to "prog metal only". They did that pretty well on ADTOE.
I get that it's what they are known for, but that doesn't mean they have to stay there. Do a more rock and roll album. Or some sort of jazz fusion thing whatever. Electronic rock?! I took some nyquil so I'm getting drowsy.
DT have talent, they can write songs, but it seems obvious to me at least that they limit themselves or put themselves into a box. They can do whatever they want at this point in their careers.
Although don't do scream vocals. DT cannot pull that off with Labrie.
Whenever the next DT album comes out, I'll listen and hope for a change and not more recycling. Not trying to hate, but when 3 of the last 4 albums have been major duds, you want a change. I still respect them.
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There's absolutely no guarantee a X-year break would have done the band any good. Granted the recipe has grown a little stale over the years but the process began with 8vm for me, which means 3 albums with MP. While DT12 is far from being my favorite, I'll take it anytime of the day over the 3 albums that preceded ADToe. So, was MP right : yes, he was...he was right to leave because his departure has allowed the band to breathe.
B.Lee
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DT was "his baby"
Not.. It wasn't.. Or, if it was, it was also the other four guys' baby.. Stop placing the structural or promotional above the music!..
There's absolutely no guarantee a X-year break would have done the band any good.
Was MP right : yes, he was...he was right to leave because his departure has allowed the band to breathe.
Exactly.. And I'm saying this even when he's the best drummer IMO.. But yeah, they ARE in a break, since 2010... They broke with Portnoy..
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Mike's OCD was great for us fans. I wonder because his life was DT and in the end, he was burnt out.
Exactly. And has anyone noticed he's been involved in a lot more music since the split but but has dialed down the stuff he does? He still does a lot, but it's not as extreme.
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Breaking news: according to many comments above none of this would exist:
-The Spirit Carries On's Documentary
-ADToE's snippets
-Q&A (wasn't this communication with the fan base?)
-Happy Holidays
-Two damn 3 hours DVD/Blu-Ray!!!
-Live versions: Metropolis pt 1 extended, the LTE/KC night, JP's solos, JR's solos, MM's solos (one of them in the middle of EM), Trial of Tears' improv, Awake and SFaM's birthdays, the resurrected songs.. And having into account that they supposedly had given up doing this kind of stuff..
And this is only what I can remember or what I know.. All this, when a 'regular' band (or 'one of those bands', whatever that really means) would've done the records (none of them so long btw), the tours (not an "an evening with" btw) and maybe some social network 'interaction' and that's it..
Five Ten years later, yes, Portnoy was right: everything is never enough..
If you're going to attack someone's opinion, the very least, the base level of common courtesy, is to at least get the thing you're attacking correct. ONE (and I while I don't speak for Scotty, I don't think I am far off his base either), this is NOT a case of "never enough". Not even close. We've both commented on what they have done "right" (for lack of a better word), and have been clear that they are still A favorite, but not THE favorite. TWO, Scotty, Orbert and I have all explained - I think in good detail - what a "one of many" really means, so your refusal to even acknowledge someone else's position (note I did not say "agree with it") says a lot more about you than us. Several of us on "this side" of the line you insist on drawing even though we - and Hef - have said there is no need for that line have been clear: we still buy the records. We appreciate (well, I do, I don't know if any of the others mentioned this) the "Holiday" release (though not being much of a downloader, I can't resist the opportunity to note that hard CDs are best).
Don't expect, nor want, really, for you to agree, but having the common courtesy to acknowledge and respect differences without cheap "Never Enough" references would really elevate your game.
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I didn't know they said such a thing.. Someone has the link to that interview?..
As I was saying about "understanding the argument before you attack it", I have repeated that here at least three times. It is absolutely on record, and it was said point blank by James LaBrie in addition to the references here to JP saying it. This is part of the beef, since he CLEARLY had the biggest axe to grind with Mike, and his comments were clearly intended to, if not berate Mike, then at least minimize the level of effort and contribution of the things he did (even if they didn't matter to you, any specific fan). And yet, they must be of SOME consequence, because they didn't deliver.
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DT was "his baby"
Not.. It wasn't.. Or, if it was, it was also the other four guys' baby.. Stop placing the structural or promotional above the music!..
Uh, stop telling us what to value and what not to value. Music is part of it, to be sure, but we've said this now about 8 different times, it is the intangible that set them apart from the hundreds if not thousands of other bands out there. Not so much the "promotional" (I'm not on Facebook or Twitter) but the structural is what sets it apart. I have over 2,000 CDs. There are too many bands that I like for me to follow with any real diligence, or completeness. So I'm looking for that "thing" to set them apart. Marillion. Genesis. Yes is now getting into the game. Crimson. Maiden.
And (formerly) Dream Theater.
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;D Sorry, I tried and failed.. What I supposed to write in the search engine?.. :justjen
DT best musan?????? the best them :metal :metal :metal
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while I don't speak for Scotty, I don't think I am far off his base either), this is NOT a case of "never enough". <snip> We appreciate (well, I do, I don't know if any of the others mentioned this) the "Holiday" release (though not being much of a downloader, I can't resist the opportunity to note that hard CDs are best).
Stads, thanx for expressing my feelings much more eloquently than I could - couldn't agree more with your post, including the point about appreciating the Holiday release but how it would be nice to have a factory pressed CD of it.
The only thing I'll add, is that while the things that ToT-147 listed are nice and appreciated, many of those things are not things that are exceptional by today's standards, and by that, I mean music artists in general. For instance, a documentary is something that many artists have done and released along with their respective studio albums. Many bands these days release a live album/video of every tour they do. The Q&A is also something that is done by many artists in this day of technology and media. And lately, anniversaries seem to be a good excuse for a lot of bands to tour or to hype their tour, whether they have a new album or not, altho it was cool to see them finally play SDVest. So all these things don't make the band exceptional as previously, but rather keep up with what many bands and artists do these days.
What I, and I would assume Stads and others are referring to are the other things, such as the rotating setlists, the cover songs, the official bootlegs, the more hands-on approach with fans and things of that nature. The Holidays release was very nice and something exceptional, even compared to when MP was in the band. And the stretched out/improvs found in Metropolis and ToT were great, but those were only developed late in their respective tours so only a fraction of the fans that saw them on those tours got to see those improvs - usually there was much more of that sort of thing on previous tours. The Evening With tour was great, but the lack of a rotating setlist, or even switching between an A and B setlist was disappointing and was the deciding factor in why I saw them once instead of multiple times on that tour; this was especially true when the band returned to play some of the same cities they played earlier in the year, playing the exact same setlist instead of changing some songs, despite their statements to the contrary.
So for me, the band still falls short on those things that made the especially special, and why I now consider them "just another band" albeit still my favorite band.
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DT was "his baby"
Not.. It wasn't.. Or, if it was, it was also the other four guys' baby.. Stop placing the structural or promotional above the music!..
It's in quotes because that's how MP referred to it. I get it bro. Trust me.
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Don't expect, nor want, really, for you to agree, but having the common courtesy to acknowledge and respect differences without cheap "Never Enough" references would really elevate your game.
Interesting that quoting Mike Portnoy is considered "cheap"
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Didn't they keep the setlist fairly static just because - otherwise Mangini would have way too much stuff to learn in a short time ?
Makes sense to me...
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Didn't they keep the setlist fairly static just because - otherwise Mangini would have way too much stuff to learn in a short time ?
Makes sense to me...
I could see that on the first tour. When you look at the first tours DS and JR did with DT, in both cases the setlists were fairly static. But, on the following tours, there was a significant amount of changing of the setlist from night to night, especially for Jordan on World Tourbulence (which was also the first Evening With tour they did). So I'm not buying that for the 2014 tour.
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Didn't they keep the setlist fairly static just because - otherwise Mangini would have way too much stuff to learn in a short time ?
Makes sense to me...
Well, that didn't seem to stop them from changing the lists when Derek and Jordan joined. I know there are more songs now but I don't think anyone expects them to play every song they've ever played on one tour, just some little changes here or there would be nice.
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Didn't they keep the setlist fairly static just because - otherwise Mangini would have way too much stuff to learn in a short time ?
Makes sense to me...
No with the new stage a lot of the screen was synced to a click track. I'd assume it was because of that. What they should do is rotate a few songs that they can use the cameras on the guys. That makes it easier.
Now, because of the 2 anniversary albums, that limited them. This timw, I hope the sneak a few more songs into the rotation.
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I guess we have to look forward now of years of posts basically saying, "Yeah, but MP did more," no matter what the band does. They are in a no-win situation with those tiny percentage of fans, but unlike their former drummer, I suspect the current members of Dream Theater are good about focusing on the mostly positive fans instead of worrying about the tinny tiny number of ones who seemingly will never be happy now. :tup :tup
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To me, following this conversation, it becomes clearer and clearer that, if we grant the premise that DT is a special band, for many people MP was a big part of what made them a special band. He's obviously not everything, as most of the people commenting liked one or both of ADTOE and DT12 better than SC and BCSL. But it's clear from a lot of the things people are expressing that MP was a big part of what made DT special for a lot of people. He was a big part of what made them special for me (even though I became a fan after he left, I still felt the influence of what he did above and beyond in addition to what he did musically). Not everything, not even close to everything—the other guys who have contributed to DT, Petrucci probably most of all, are also important parts of what make them special.
But you can't discount the importance for a lot of people of who MP is and what he did for DT and still does in all his other projects. He's one-of-a-kind and it would be natural to miss him, even while believing that the band is on one of the best two-album runs of its career.
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I can only speak for myself, but I thought DT was pretty special from 1993-2000, which was before I got online at dt.net. For those 7+ years, I had no idea of the inner workings of the band or any of that kind of stuff, yet the band was still, at one would put it, "especially special" in my book. ;) Some would say Portnoy was behind some of it, to my lack of knowledge at the time, but the point was that I didn't need to think, "Man, there is this guy in the band doing all of this stuff," to think the band was special. The music alone was what made it so special.
Even the first two live videos (Tokyo and 5 Years...) were shown in a way that made it look like a band of five guys doing their thing, not one guy trying to run the show (which is how some of the later videos came across). I never got the idea watching the Tokyo or 5 Years... videos, or the early MTV videos, that Portnoy was the unofficial leader of the band or anything. Granted, maybe he didn't take that mantel and fully run with it until after the FII sessions, the Sherinian ouster and Rudess joining the band, but the band was just better and more fun to be a fan of when he wasn't in full control. I know I wasn't alone in being tired of nearly every DT video, interview and documentary ultimately becoming the Mike Portnoy Show, also featuring John Petrucci, Jordan Rudess, James LaBrie and occasionally John Myung. :lol :lol
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Some would say Portnoy was behind some of it, to my lack of knowledge at the time, but the point was that I didn't need to think, "Man, there is this guy in the band doing all of this stuff," to think the band was special. The music alone was what made it so special.
Without question, it was the music that got my attention.
But Portnoy stood out from the beginning (for me, the beginning being Images and Words tour). He has a personality trait that is very rare (and to be envied). He remembers people. And not like some card trick where he just has a good memory. He remembers you in ways that are, quite frankly, surprising.
From I&W to SFAM, I was the obsessed fan. DT shows: I must attend all local shows. If that meant one in Orange County, a back to back in Los Angeles and one in Ventura County, I'm rearranging my life around it and making a day out of it (showing up way too early and staying after way too late). Guitar clinics and drum clinics: I'm so there. NAMM show appearance and NAMM show concerts, I will exhaust the friend of a friend of a relative's son's connection to go there. LTE shows: I have to sneak my video camera in.
And every event (except the guitar clinics), I'd run into Portnoy. I'd run into the other members, but Portnoy was the consistent run in. And despite the fact that these were just fan-musician run ins, Portnoy would say "hey Calvin!!!" before I even got a word out. And he'd bring up stuff I posted on ytsejam or other things that the average musician person would ever notice, let alone recall. And it didn't come off as some strategic promotion plan. It didn't seem like any kind of forced plan at all with some hidden agenda. It seemed very natural and sincere.
The other band members just don't have that trait (except maybe Sherinian, but not to Portnoy's degree). And that isn't a knock on them because most don't have that. I don't have that. I wish I did. I've tried to force it because it is a desired trait, but it turns detrimental to other positive traits I have. Quite frankly, you either have it or you don't.
And I'm going to stop right there because I could go on ... but sometimes I roll my eyes at myself when I talk too much about a band outside of the songs.
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Say what you say but most of MP's reactions and interactions with fans were genuine and natural (whether they were good or bad, that's another matter) but he's always been there for the fans.
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Don't expect, nor want, really, for you to agree, but having the common courtesy to acknowledge and respect differences without cheap "Never Enough" references would really elevate your game.
Interesting that quoting Mike Portnoy is considered "cheap"
You're better than that. You know full well that it isn't the quoting of Mr. Portnoy that is cheap, it's the token implication that anyone who doesn't drink the Kool-Aid is an ungrateful whiner.
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Some would say Portnoy was behind some of it, to my lack of knowledge at the time, but the point was that I didn't need to think, "Man, there is this guy in the band doing all of this stuff," to think the band was special. The music alone was what made it so special.
Without question, it was the music that got my attention.
But Portnoy stood out from the beginning (for me, the beginning being Images and Words tour). He has a personality trait that is very rare (and to be envied). He remembers people. And not like some card trick where he just has a good memory. He remembers you in ways that are, quite frankly, surprising.
From I&W to SFAM, I was the obsessed fan. DT shows: I must attend all local shows. If that meant one in Orange County, a back to back in Los Angeles and one in Ventura County, I'm rearranging my life around it and making a day out of it (showing up way too early and staying after way too late). Guitar clinics and drum clinics: I'm so there. NAMM show appearance and NAMM show concerts, I will exhaust the friend of a friend of a relative's son's connection to go there. LTE shows: I have to sneak my video camera in.
And every event (except the guitar clinics), I'd run into Portnoy. I'd run into the other members, but Portnoy was the consistent run in. And despite the fact that these were just fan-musician run ins, Portnoy would say "hey Calvin!!!" before I even got a word out. And he'd bring up stuff I posted on ytsejam or other things that the average musician person would ever notice, let alone recall. And it didn't come off as some strategic promotion plan. It didn't seem like any kind of forced plan at all with some hidden agenda. It seemed very natural and sincere.
The other band members just don't have that trait (except maybe Sherinian, but not to Portnoy's degree). And that isn't a knock on them because most don't have that. I don't have that. I wish I did. I've tried to force it because it is a desired trait, but it turns detrimental to other positive traits I have. Quite frankly, you either have it or you don't.
And I'm going to stop right there because I could go on ... but sometimes I roll my eyes at myself when I talk too much about a band outside of the songs.
Great post, and it brings a lot to the table for someone like me, who hasn't had the opportunity to see them live. I've only gotten to see DT once, but I've been a fan of the band since the I&W days.
You're right, that is just apparently something that MP has that the other members don't (although, to be fair, I have heard similar stories about Jordan).
For me, my relationship with the band has been remote. I get all the CDs on release day, and I have all the live releases, and I have tons of bootlegs.
Whenever there is a change of membership, it isn't just a plug-and-play. The entire group dynamic changes.
Frankly, the other four members may have been a little naive when making announcements about taking up the stuff that MP was doing. That's what I expected.
Some of the things that MP contributed outside of the actual music was fantastic (his constant information stream about DT projects, his setlist variation), but some got kind of old too (his occasional outbursts, his insistence on playing cover songs). So, for fans like me, there was good and not-so-good, which is fine; there is no such thing as perfection.
For me, the musicians are so good, that live shows are ALWAYS going to be entertaining. So the most important thing to me is what is also the most important thing to the current incarnation of the band: the music they write and record. And that had definitely started to slip (IMO) toward the end of the MP regime. And that has dramatically improve with the two albums the band has created since his departure.
I certainly miss the great things that MP contributed to the band, but those things were never the things that made DT my favorite band - those things were bonuses. The music is what made DT my favorite band, and frankly I wouldn't know any other way to judge a band.
The music is the thing.
So I think that MP was right that THAT incarnation of DT had run its course for a while, because the music on the last 2 albums (really, the last THREE albums other than the title track of Octavarium) had taken a nose dive from their previous glories. Sure, good things here and there, but for me, the last album from the Portnoy era that was really good in its entirety was Train of Thought.
I'm not saying the MP was the problem, but with him gone, the band certainly has has a renewed enthusiasm and spirit. And I MUCH prefer the last two albums from the band to the previous three. And if the tradeoff for that vastly improved music is that we don't get some of the great things that MP contributed, I'm OK with that.
But if they could bring back the rotating setlists, that would be sweet. :biggrin:
All of that is to say that our viewpoint on this matter is largely shaped by our individual experience of the band and its output and what is important to us as individuals. There is no right or wrong, there are only different perspectives.
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I guess we have to look forward now of years of posts basically saying, "Yeah, but MP did more," no matter what the band does. They are in a no-win situation with those tiny percentage of fans, but unlike their former drummer, I suspect the current members of Dream Theater are good about focusing on the mostly positive fans instead of worrying about the tinny tiny number of ones who seemingly will never be happy now. :tup :tup
What part of "still a first day buyer" (me) and "still my favorite band" (Scotty) are you missing? Again, only for me, but it's not as if I am "unhappy", or negative. I'm responding to the people that seem to want to ignore any possible differences, and seem to want to denigrate the idea that some of those differences may in fact be important to people. And in part (and I suspect this is where the animosity is coming from) I am sticking up for the things that Mike did. I won't sugar coat it: for all his foibles, I admire him, and consider him a fan who "gets it" perhaps a bit more than those that remain in the band.
If you love it, and are happy and think it is better, I well and truly could not be happier for you. I'm not calling you a fan boy, I'm not implying the band should ignore your feelings, and I'm not saying you are wrong. Why can't those of us that are in the middle get the same courtesy? Is it that hard?
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I can only speak for myself, but I thought DT was pretty special from 1993-2000, which was before I got online at dt.net. For those 7+ years, I had no idea of the inner workings of the band or any of that kind of stuff, yet the band was still, at one would put it, "especially special" in my book. ;) Some would say Portnoy was behind some of it, to my lack of knowledge at the time, but the point was that I didn't need to think, "Man, there is this guy in the band doing all of this stuff," to think the band was special. The music alone was what made it so special.
Even the first two live videos (Tokyo and 5 Years...) were shown in a way that made it look like a band of five guys doing their thing, not one guy trying to run the show (which is how some of the later videos came across). I never got the idea watching the Tokyo or 5 Years... videos, or the early MTV videos, that Portnoy was the unofficial leader of the band or anything. Granted, maybe he didn't take that mantel and fully run with it until after the FII sessions, the Sherinian ouster and Rudess joining the band, but the band was just better and more fun to be a fan of when he wasn't in full control. I know I wasn't alone in being tired of nearly every DT video, interview and documentary ultimately becoming the Mike Portnoy Show, also featuring John Petrucci, Jordan Rudess, James LaBrie and occasionally John Myung. :lol :lol
Does it surprise you that I have the same experience? I got into them when I&W was first released, and it was actually James's voice that hooked me (on first listen I was actually kind of turned off to the double bass drums on Pull Me Under, though I have grown to like them). It WAS the music that got me, but it was the attention to detail IN the music. Then the fan club CDs. Then the Ytsejam stuff... I am that guy. I have saved searches on eBay for hard to find disks I want. When I lived in Philly, I'd walk by this store that had used CD racks on the sidewalk, and my then wife would get batshit angry at me because I HAD to stop to see if there was something new. It's always the music that matters, but there is also that appreciation that the six different versions of To Live Forever are important.
I read an article about Genesis and Phil said something like "no one really wants all those b-sides; plus they are embarrassing now!" And I'm like, "I WANT THOSE B-SIDES!". When they released the Archive set and left off two of them ("Me and Virgil" and "Match of the Day", and yes I am right, and no I didn't have to look it up) at Phil's request, I was PISSED. I was like "Dude, you do NOT get it". Ozzy same way. How do you release deluxe versions of Blizzard and Diary and leave off officially released songs by Randy Rhoads ("You Said It All")??? Thankfully, with Eddie Trunk's help, I found out that the ONLY release of that song on CD was a promo CD for Crazy Babies, and so I searched it out. I feel like Mike would understand that in a way that perhaps the current band doesn't.
None of this is to say that all of a sudden "DT Sucks!", because they don't.
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All of that is to say that our viewpoint on this matter is largely shaped by our individual experience of the band and its output and what is important to us as individuals. There is no right or wrong, there are only different perspectives.
Hef is the Mack Daddy.
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I love you too, man.
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Frankly, the other four members may have been a little naive when making announcements about taking up the stuff that MP was doing. That's what I expected.
That makes the most sense, really. At the time, changes were happening, but the band was moving forward and it was an exciting time, so of course they felt like "Don't worry, we're still the same band, etc." and they really felt like all the "extra" stuff could/should/would continue. But then when things settled down a bit, they realized that the drive to keep all of that stuff up, and the know-how, and the resources, just weren't there, not to the levels they were when MP was around.
<Stuff that exactly parallels my experience getting into Dream Theater>
Does it surprise you that I have the same experience?
Nope, because it was that way for me, too.
I read an article about Genesis and Phil said something like "no one really wants all those b-sides; plus they are embarrassing now!" And I'm like, "I WANT THOSE B-SIDES!". When they released the Archive set and left off two of them ("Me and Virgil" and "Match of the Day", and yes I am right, and no I didn't have to look it up) at Phil's request, I was PISSED. I was like "Dude, you do NOT get it". Ozzy same way. How do you release deluxe versions of Blizzard and Diary and leave off officially released songs by Randy Rhoads ("You Said It All")??? Thankfully, with Eddie Trunk's help, I found out that the ONLY release of that song on CD was a promo CD for Crazy Babies, and so I searched it out. I feel like Mike would understand that in a way that perhaps the current band doesn't.
Once again, same here. Artists often have no idea what songs their fans really want, or at the very least, they're most concerned with what most fans care about, and the rest of us, well too bad. Those Archive sets were promoted as cleaning out the vaults, digging up lost treasures, and we got a few, but didn't get it all even when they had it to give, and a lot of what we got was IMO kinda useless. The long-awaited live Lamb show, but with contemporary overdubs. Seriously? "Match of the Day" is a kinduv catchy song, but I really like "Me and Virgil" and regardless, they should have been included.
Basically, they were "Here's some cool rare stuff you might like, and a lot of stuff you already have, and some useless stuff to fill things out. Enjoy!"
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I read an article about Genesis and Phil said something like "no one really wants all those b-sides; plus they are embarrassing now!" And I'm like, "I WANT THOSE B-SIDES!". When they released the Archive set and left off two of them ("Me and Virgil" and "Match of the Day", and yes I am right, and no I didn't have to look it up) at Phil's request, I was PISSED. I was like "Dude, you do NOT get it". Ozzy same way. How do you release deluxe versions of Blizzard and Diary and leave off officially released songs by Randy Rhoads ("You Said It All")??? Thankfully, with Eddie Trunk's help, I found out that the ONLY release of that song on CD was a promo CD for Crazy Babies, and so I searched it out. I feel like Mike would understand that in a way that perhaps the current band doesn't.
Once again, same here. Artists often have no idea what songs their fans really want, or at the very least, they're most concerned with what most fans care about, and the rest of us, well too bad. Those Archive sets were promoted as cleaning out the vaults, digging up lost treasures, and we got a few, but didn't get it all even when they had it to give, and a lot of what we got was IMO kinda useless. The long-awaited live Lamb show, but with contemporary overdubs. Seriously? "Match of the Day" is a kinduv catchy song, but I really like "Me and Virgil" and regardless, they should have been included.
Basically, they were "Here's some cool rare stuff you might like, and a lot of stuff you already have, and some useless stuff to fill things out. Enjoy!"
What's worse is they did the same thing with the 1983-1998 box set. They did NOT include every B-Side from the Ray Wilson era (They for whatever reason dropped 7/8, Phret, Banjo Man, and Papa He Said). They also could have easily included the long versions of Mama and It's Gonna Get Better. I would have also liked to have seen The Carpet Crawlers 1999 as well. All stuff that the average fan may not care about, but guys like us clearly do!
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I read an article about Genesis and Phil said something like "no one really wants all those b-sides; plus they are embarrassing now!" And I'm like, "I WANT THOSE B-SIDES!". When they released the Archive set and left off two of them ("Me and Virgil" and "Match of the Day", and yes I am right, and no I didn't have to look it up) at Phil's request, I was PISSED. I was like "Dude, you do NOT get it". Ozzy same way. How do you release deluxe versions of Blizzard and Diary and leave off officially released songs by Randy Rhoads ("You Said It All")??? Thankfully, with Eddie Trunk's help, I found out that the ONLY release of that song on CD was a promo CD for Crazy Babies, and so I searched it out. I feel like Mike would understand that in a way that perhaps the current band doesn't.
Once again, same here. Artists often have no idea what songs their fans really want, or at the very least, they're most concerned with what most fans care about, and the rest of us, well too bad. Those Archive sets were promoted as cleaning out the vaults, digging up lost treasures, and we got a few, but didn't get it all even when they had it to give, and a lot of what we got was IMO kinda useless. The long-awaited live Lamb show, but with contemporary overdubs. Seriously? "Match of the Day" is a kinduv catchy song, but I really like "Me and Virgil" and regardless, they should have been included.
Basically, they were "Here's some cool rare stuff you might like, and a lot of stuff you already have, and some useless stuff to fill things out. Enjoy!"
What's worse is they did the same thing with the 1983-1998 box set. They did NOT include every B-Side from the Ray Wilson era (They for whatever reason dropped 7/8, Phret, Banjo Man, and Papa He Said). They also could have easily included the long versions of Mama and It's Gonna Get Better. I would have also liked to have seen The Carpet Crawlers 1999 as well. All stuff that the average fan may not care about, but guys like us clearly do!
I was making a different point, but since we're on this, we must mention the "holy grail" for many Genesis collectors, the Flexi-disk live version of "Firth of Fifth" from around the time of Duke or Abacab.
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I was making a different point, but since we're on this, we must mention the "holy grail" for many Genesis collectors, the Flexi-disk live version of "Firth of Fifth" from around the time of Duke or Abacab.
Haha, yeah, I kinda forgot I was in a DT thread. I see Genesis mentioned and I get all excited! :lol
On topic, I would argue that there is no "right" or "wrong" here. You could say Mike was wrong/right for leaving, but also that the band was wrong/right for not taking him back for offering. It seemed like there were a lot of internal struggles for both Mike and the band, and the best option probably was a split. It probably was NOT the best option for it to be so public for so long. These days that's hard, I know. For selfish reasons, I do hope there is some sort of reconciliation somewhere down the road for him and the other four guys... the kind that will allow MP to open up the vaults again. I am under the assumption, however, that that will never happen.
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I will just kinda toss this out there.
One aspect of DT I do not like is something that others brought up the minute they broke through with Pull Me Under. It is just a bunch of prodigies.
While they are very proficient at their instruments, they were also a real band where everybody seemed to be irreplaceable. Ok. LaBrie was an upgrade. Well, that happens with other *real* bands. Slight changes as one or two positions are not concrete in the beginning.
Then the upgrade to Rudess. OMG. This guy can play anything. That was a little unsettling.
The talk of upgrading LaBrie again.
Then the *upgrade* to Mangini.
These proficiency upgrades aren't straightforward, but they seem to be the biggest selling points. It does give the impression that it is more about technical prowess than songwriting.
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That's usually the case with 'prog metal' as a whole. The genre is defined by the virtuosism of its players, which manifests as long songs because they can manage to fit more complex passages within the song I believe.
Without the virtuostic element, DT wouldn't have reached as far as it did.
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Without the virtuostic element, DT wouldn't have reached as far as it did.
I agree wholeheartedly.
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I read an article about Genesis and Phil said something like "no one really wants all those b-sides; plus they are embarrassing now!" And I'm like, "I WANT THOSE B-SIDES!". When they released the Archive set and left off two of them ("Me and Virgil" and "Match of the Day", and yes I am right, and no I didn't have to look it up) at Phil's request, I was PISSED. I was like "Dude, you do NOT get it".
None of this is to say that all of a sudden "DT Sucks!", because they don't.
Not to throw this thread into the jagged rocks below, but you may want to find yourself an original US pressing of Three Sides Live (vinyl or CD). Me and Virgil is on there as part as the studio B-sides which made up the fourth side of the record. I want to say Match Of the Day was on recent Record Store Day release, but I'm likely wrong about that.
Otherwise, I was going to stay out of this because I still think Mike and the rest of the band are better off and I think the results thus far bear that out.
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These proficiency upgrades aren't straightforward, but they seem to be the biggest selling points. It does give the impression that it is more about technical prowess than songwriting.
Maybe if you only look at the musicians in isolation, but it's obvious that's not the case when you consider the actual music. DT12 is a DT that is trying its damned hardest to write good songs.
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Without the virtuostic element, DT wouldn't have reached as far as it did.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Quoted for truth.
My experiences with the band seem to mirror many of the other's here; fan since Pull Me Under, first-day-buy, so forth. To be brutally honest, I never thought that I would ever get the chance to see them live (as a teen and young adult) because they never came anywhere close to me. Then in 2004, my girlfriend (now my wife) said she would go to DC with me to see them; we made a trip of it (4-days) and enjoyed the drive up to DC from home. I thought I was a fan... until I saw them live and REALLY became a fan. My girlfriend had only heard DT in my car... she immediately became a fan after the show.
Since 2004, we've seen them at least once each tour cycle and we've been blessed to meet them three times (once with MP and twice with MM). This last time meeting them, JP kind-of looked hard at me and said "I think we've met before right... you're normally here for the DC show." I thought that was mighty cool... he didn't know my name (how awesome is Calvin's experience!) but there was some recognition.
I said that to say this... for me, it doesn't matter if they never did anything else but release music and tour to finish out their career, I'd still be a big fan and still consider them my favorite. I'd miss all the extra stuff (of course... who wouldn't) but the music is all that ever mattered to me.
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Great post, and it brings a lot to the table for someone like me, who hasn't had the opportunity to see them live. I've only gotten to see DT once, but I've been a fan of the band since the I&W days.
How is it that you've only seen them once especially considering you've been listening to them for over 20 years? Honest question. Do you live wayyyyyy far away from civilization or do you not like to drive a few hours for show. Dream Theater have never played closer than almost 3 hours from me but I see them once per leg. I guess they played an hour and a half from me but that was 8 years before I started listening to them on the I&W tour.
If I can see one show a year within an hours drive by a band I at least moderately like then I consider myself lucky...and I do live in a metropolitan area of several hundred thousand people.
But if they could bring back the rotating setlists, that would be sweet. :biggrin:
I admit, the rotating setlists could be great, especially if you release a bonus disc of things that weren't at a specific show (or an official bootleg) BUT...I personally have never benefited from it other than that. Same with the vast majority of fans. Sure there is a segment of the fans that went to more than one show but the majority are satisfied with one (or can't afford more than one or can't get the time off of work) and I personally have gotten a little pissed knowing the show before or after me got songs I wanted to hear and I was stuck with what I consider B-list material.
What is it that makes you like the rotating setlists given that you've only seen them once?
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I guess we have to look forward now of years of posts basically saying, "Yeah, but MP did more," no matter what the band does. They are in a no-win situation with those tiny percentage of fans, but unlike their former drummer, I suspect the current members of Dream Theater are good about focusing on the mostly positive fans instead of worrying about the tinny tiny number of ones who seemingly will never be happy now. :tup :tup
What part of "still a first day buyer" (me) and "still my favorite band" (Scotty) are you missing? Again, only for me, but it's not as if I am "unhappy", or negative. I'm responding to the people that seem to want to ignore any possible differences, and seem to want to denigrate the idea that some of those differences may in fact be important to people. And in part (and I suspect this is where the animosity is coming from) I am sticking up for the things that Mike did. I won't sugar coat it: for all his foibles, I admire him, and consider him a fan who "gets it" perhaps a bit more than those that remain in the band.
If you love it, and are happy and think it is better, I well and truly could not be happier for you. I'm not calling you a fan boy, I'm not implying the band should ignore your feelings, and I'm not saying you are wrong. Why can't those of us that are in the middle get the same courtesy? Is it that hard?
Nope, not at all. I guess, for me, I used to be "that guy," who was too critical of the band for little things, instead of just enjoying the hell out of them and focusing on the positive. I've made a concerted effort over the last x-number of years to be much more positive in general, including when discussing music online, although I still have my moments. :lol :biggrin:
Referring to your other post (no need to quote it, too), I understand how extra things can make you a bigger fan of a band whose music you already love; I get it, I really do. I just think some are holding the band almost hostage to their expectations, just because they aren't doing every little thing that Mike Portnoy used to, which no one in their right mind ever thought they would do (regardless of how JR or JP might have said they would). Why not focus on the positives?
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Why not focus on the positives?
Probably because we aren't allowed to. Instead of just accepting MP's great contributions, we have to hear about how he is a buffoon or poison on some level. His contributions are overrated. Mangini plays circles around him.
It happened to a lesser degree with Sherinian / Rudess.
Then when somebody steps up to say "now wait a minute. Portnoy had quite a bit going for him and I'd by lying if I said I won't miss him in DT." If anything, that's the positive view.
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How is it that you've only seen them once especially considering you've been listening to them for over 20 years? Honest question. Do you live wayyyyyy far away from civilization or do you not like to drive a few hours for show.
Yes, and yes.
What is it that makes you like the rotating setlists given that you've only seen them once?
Bootlegs, videos, whatever. If they do it, I can hear it or see it, whether I attend or not.
Plus, the excitement of hearing about setlists on the forums. Excitement and anticipation over what might be played. Enthusiasm over some weird thing that happened one night. All of that is gone now.
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Why not focus on the positives?
Probably because we aren't allowed to. Instead of just accepting MP's great contributions, we have to hear about how he is a buffoon or poison on some level. His contributions are overrated. Mangini plays circles around him.
Are we reading the same message board?
How is it that you've only seen them once especially considering you've been listening to them for over 20 years? Honest question. Do you live wayyyyyy far away from civilization or do you not like to drive a few hours for show.
Yes, and yes.
What is it that makes you like the rotating setlists given that you've only seen them once?
Bootlegs, videos, whatever. If they do it, I can hear it or see it, whether I attend or not.
Plus, the excitement of hearing about setlists on the forums. Excitement and anticipation over what might be played. Enthusiasm over some weird thing that happened one night. All of that is gone now.
Ah yes. I do miss that, too. Not as much to the point of wanting rotating setlists back but that definitely was pretty cool.
Then again, I think anything would be an improvement over the summer festival setlist but knowing my luck they would take out the few songs I want to hear and replace it with more mediocre stuff.
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Mangini may play circles around Portnoy and be a nicer person all around - but his solos are boring as shit and his playing is robotic, clinical and soul-less.
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That setlist was really weird. Not just in terms of songs included, but also of song order.
But hey, whatever.
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Mangini may play circles around Portnoy and be a nicer person all around - but his solos are boring as shit and his playing is robotic, clinical and soul-less.
I love his solos, at least on the first tour when they were all different. Certainly much more interesting than Portnoy's. I always skip Portnoy's solos when they come up because they all sound the same.
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Mangini may play circles around Portnoy and be a nicer person all around - but his solos are boring as shit and his playing is robotic, clinical and soul-less.
I don't get this at all.
The common mantra is that Mangini is a better technical player and Portnoy has more feel in his playing.
I think thats bullshit.
I think we can all agree that Mangini probably has more technical knowledge. After all, he was a freakin' professor but that does not necessarily translate to being more technical all around. I'm not a drummer but to my ears, Portnoy has done some incredibly technical things which are at least on par with Mangini.
On that same token, I think Mangini plays with plenty of feeling, at least on par with Portnoy. Some songs one might best the other and yeah, I think Mangini can probably explain in clinical terms what he is playing better than Portnoy, but I get sick of the divisive categorization of each.
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If you're going to attack someone's opinion, the very least, the base level of common courtesy, is to at least get the thing you're attacking correct. ONE (and I while I don't speak for Scotty, I don't think I am far off his base either), this is NOT a case of "never enough". Not even close. We've both commented on what they have done "right" (for lack of a better word), and have been clear that they are still A favorite, but not THE favorite. TWO, Scotty, Orbert and I have all explained - I think in good detail - what a "one of many" really means, so your refusal to even acknowledge someone else's position (note I did not say "agree with it") says a lot more about you than us. Several of us on "this side" of the line you insist on drawing even though we - and Hef - have said there is no need for that line have been clear: we still buy the records. We appreciate (well, I do, I don't know if any of the others mentioned this) the "Holiday" release (though not being much of a downloader, I can't resist the opportunity to note that hard CDs are best).
I was being extreme and sarcastic, but only in order to balance the things a little.. Obviously I don't think you're those fans MP was referring in NE, not at least in a "pure" way (or the way MP had in mind), but you are them in somehow.. You WERE complaining about them don't doing all the meticulous things MP did, seeing the negative side of it (as KevShmev said), instead of enjoying the good stuff they still do or care about doing (the things on my list, but most of all, the music)..
I'm not trying to convince anyone or censor anyone's opinion.. That's just my way to express myself when I see something I fully disagree with.. Nothing personal.. But the music is the most important thing to me (I know now that also to vtgrad, Hef, and we're probably vast majority on that one).. Yeah, the music is not all though.. And I'm the first to appreciate the things MP did in that aspect.. He has even inspired me not only in my music, but also in the way of writing my literature (structurally speaking).. btw, I say he because I know he was the main man behind it, although not the only one..
I'm not drawing any lines.. That's what you think, but I'm not.. Just putting some things in order.. They DID stuff they didn't have supposed to do.. Anyway, OTOH, who are we to say what they should do?.. They've given and still giving us their music.. That music that is all that makes them not one of many, but one of a kind band..
I didn't know they said such a thing.. Someone has the link to that interview?..
As I was saying about "understanding the argument before you attack it", I have repeated that here at least three times. It is absolutely on record, and it was said point blank by James LaBrie in addition to the references here to JP saying it. This is part of the beef, since he CLEARLY had the biggest axe to grind with Mike, and his comments were clearly intended to, if not berate Mike, then at least minimize the level of effort and contribution of the things he did (even if they didn't matter to you, any specific fan). And yet, they must be of SOME consequence, because they didn't deliver.
:huh:
What this has to do with any of those arguments or with the discussion I don't have a clue.. I honestly didn't know JLB said that.. That's why I was asking, not 'attacking'..
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Oh please, gimme a break.
You always find something to criticize, even in the MP days.
Sure, rotating setlists, cool. Some people heard that their X favorite song was played the night before, and assist to a show filled with excitement only to find out that their song is not played, I would be rather pissed off.
Having a fixed setlist is better, you know what's coming.
However, I agree that the "fixed" setlist should have some changes, specially for second legs.
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Great post, and it brings a lot to the table for someone like me, who hasn't had the opportunity to see them live. I've only gotten to see DT once, but I've been a fan of the band since the I&W days.
How is it that you've only seen them once especially considering you've been listening to them for over 20 years? Honest question. Do you live wayyyyyy far away from civilization or do you not like to drive a few hours for show. Dream Theater have never played closer than almost 3 hours from me but I see them once per leg. I guess they played an hour and a half from me but that was 8 years before I started listening to them on the I&W tour.
Fan since '91, seen over 400 shows in my life, etc. etc., and only seen them once, on the Prog Nation tour in Philly. They even played literally across the street from my apartment in Philly on the ADTOE tour (I'm not joking. The doors to the theater are about 500 feet from my front door), but I couldn't go, because sometimes duty calls. I was in Erie (300 miles away) for work and couldn't go. Sometimes life gets in the way, especially if you have kids.
I admit, the rotating setlists could be great, especially if you release a bonus disc of things that weren't at a specific show (or an official bootleg) BUT...I personally have never benefited from it other than that. Same with the vast majority of fans. Sure there is a segment of the fans that went to more than one show but the majority are satisfied with one (or can't afford more than one or can't get the time off of work) and I personally have gotten a little pissed knowing the show before or after me got songs I wanted to hear and I was stuck with what I consider B-list material.
What is it that makes you like the rotating setlists given that you've only seen them once?
Personally, I like the edge it brings. My days of seeing four or five shows a tour (with any band) are long gone, but I find that bands with a static set are entertaining, but almost never... dangerous, for lack of a better word. There are exceptions (Kiss on the shed tour last summer; same flicking songs they've been playing since the reunion, but Gene's "Flight harness" didn't work, and you could see the band get pissed and kick it into overdrive. I've seen them too many times to count, and the finale was one of the best because they clearly felt like they had something to prove.) I like the train wrecks. I like just not knowing what's next. I like the gamble of hearing "that song" or not.
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Nope, not at all. I guess, for me, I used to be "that guy," who was too critical of the band for little things, instead of just enjoying the hell out of them and focusing on the positive. I've made a concerted effort over the last x-number of years to be much more positive in general, including when discussing music online, although I still have my moments. :lol :biggrin:
Referring to your other post (no need to quote it, too), I understand how extra things can make you a bigger fan of a band whose music you already love; I get it, I really do. I just think some are holding the band almost hostage to their expectations, just because they aren't doing every little thing that Mike Portnoy used to, which no one in their right mind ever thought they would do (regardless of how JR or JP might have said they would). Why not focus on the positives?
And I do. That's the point you're missing. I'm NOT being critical, and I'm not holding anyone hostage (with one exception). It's not as if I like "This Is The Life" 6% less because there is no Ytsejam recording of it. It's still one of my favorite songs of all time, ANY band, not just DT. I still have more DT CDs than any other band I listen to, and it isn't as if I am going to be selling them any time soon. If I can, I will be going to see them this next tour, because the planets seem like they will be aligning to let that happen. It's just pointing out the little differences that separate a band from being "NUMBER ONE!" to being "FIRMLY, 100% IN THE TOP TEN". It's a fan who loves to deal in nuance pointing out that nuance with one of his favorite bands.
The one exception IS the stuff James said. I've already copped to being a big fan of Mike, not going to apologize for that, and I felt like James' comments were less about the fans than they were thinly veiled attacks at Mike, and I resented a little that he would use the fans to do that. He could have been gracious and say something obligatory like "Look, no one can replace Mike, and we're not going to try, but those of you that liked what the rest of us did and do, you're going to get that much more! RAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!", or better yet, be honest and say "Look, for me, it's a relief, because he rode my ass hard and said some things over the years. I'm not personally that broken up about it." But no, he had to take that shot.
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To which "shot" are you referring? I don't remember anything really negative said by him.
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I was being extreme and sarcastic, but only in order to balance the things a little.. Obviously I don't think you're those fans MP was referring in NE, not at least in a "pure" way (or the way MP had in mind), but you are them in somehow.. You WERE complaining about them don't doing all the meticulous things MP did, seeing the negative side of it (as KevShmev said), instead of enjoying the good stuff they still do or care about doing (the things on my list, but most of all, the music)..
How exactly do you know what I enjoy or not? How do you know the music doesn't (now or then) come first? Because it does. it always does. But I like a LOT of music. I like rock, prog, country, metal, grunge, classical... too much to listen to it all. Literally. I even like One Direction, Demi Lovato and Katy Perry. There is too much to dig into for everything I like. So there are sometimes little things that separate. When Mike showed up at Ed Trunk's radio show with his cassette bootlegs of obscure shows he has (I remember at least one pre-2112 Rush boot) that was ME. Metaphorically. So while you (wrongly) see this as "black and white, negative and positive", I'm seeing this as nuance on a continuum. And if you want to respect my opinion, you have to judge it in that light, not yours.
I'm not trying to convince anyone or censor anyone's opinion.. That's just my way to express myself when I see something I fully disagree with.. Nothing personal.. But the music is the most important thing to me (I know now that also to vtgrad, Hef, and we're probably vast majority on that one).. Yeah, the music is not all though.. And I'm the first to appreciate the things MP did in that aspect.. He has even inspired me not only in my music, but also in the way of writing my literature (structurally speaking).. btw, I say he because I know he was the main man behind it, although not the only one..
It's not the disagreement. I live for the disagreement (read the P/R threads). It's never the disagreement. I just got my scruff up when it looked like it DID come down to the personal. I admire those that continue on as a No. 1 Fan after the change, because sometimes I wish I could do that. This isn't the first time that a member has changed in a band I love and the band seemed to lose something. For me, that IS the music; if they put out Images and Words tomorrow (no jokes please!) I'd be in 100%, but I don't think they did that. I feel like I can tell the lack of MP presense on the new material, but since MM is a very high quality drummer (I don't go in for "better" or "worse", only "do I like it more or less") it's still very pleasing to the ears, and they still have LaBrie, who I think is the heart and soul of the DT sound.
I'm not drawing any lines.. That's what you think, but I'm not.. Just putting some things in order.. They DID stuff they didn't have supposed to do.. Anyway, OTOH, who are we to say what they should do?.. They've given and still giving us their music.. That music that is all that makes them not one of many, but one of a kind band..
And not for me, but not because "the music doesn't matter", but because there is simply too much I like. I get lost in Genesis as easily as I do in DT. I've never thought about it, much, but I guess it is more in the general vibe than any specific song. I can lose my self for hours in "Going For The One" by Yes (my favorite album of all time). I put it on repeat and lose myself. If that's not "about the music" I don't know what is. But if you're going to invest $250 (or more) per album cycle, you can't do that for every band that's out there, and I'd rather pay $20 for a DT CD when it has a bonus 5.1 mix and a bonus disk of covers, than $20 for an Ozzy CD that has re-tracked bass lines and is missing key (in my view) songs from a legendary guitarist that died well before his time. Does this make sense?
What this has to do with any of those arguments or with the discussion I don't have a clue.. I honestly didn't know JLB said that.. That's why I was asking, not 'attacking'..
See above; I answered this for KevSchmev.
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To which "shot" are you referring? I don't remember anything really negative said by him.
I took his attitude - that it was no big deal, that the other four would step up and fill the void without worry - to be a tacit dig at Mike that what he did was either not important or not that big an effort like Mike would sometimes make it out to be. There's at least one video interview out there where he said it, and it just seemed so... gratuitous to me at the time.
Background: I firmly believe that James was absolutely thrilled beyond belief that Mike left. I think he showed some of his frustrations with Mike on the SC Documentary (when Mike seemed to be telling James what and how to sing) and we know of the quote implying that Mike toyed with the idea of what DT would be like with a different singer. I think of all the members, Mike leaving was a breath of fresh air for James, and this attitude was, in my opinion, thinly if at all disguised in some of the interviews immediately after. I also believe - with no facts to back it up - that the idea that "we already committed to Mike Mangini, and can't go back on that" came at least in part from James, who knew and worked with Mangini extensively before his invite to the audition.
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I said on Day 1 that the biggest winner with MP leaving was James. And he DID take a thinly veiled shot at MP. No question. It's was only natural. (and no, I'm not searching the internet for instances). Frankly, as much as I loved MP, I don't blame James. And still, James has been good about the whole thing.
I didn't read too much into the SC clip. Not for anything, but James is incredible on SC.
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I never read anything said by James as a shot at MP, thinly veiled or otherwise.
Example, maybe?
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I never read anything said by James as a shot at MP, thinly veiled or otherwise.
Example, maybe?
I modified my post to say that I'm not searching the internet of the 1000 or so interviews James has done since the split.
EDIT:
OK, here's one.
https://rocknewsdesk.com/world-news/labrie-dream-theater-is-better-without-portnoy/2496/
“It’s where things should be on stage where it’s not somebody in the background trying to grab the limelight, when maybe they should just be grooving or whatever."
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That doesn't sound like a jab to me, just cold sincerity. It's clear James had been feeling that way for quite some years before Portnoy's departure and finally had the opportunity of speaking his mind. I do agree with him with the spotlight thing, which was been mentioned many times in this thread. Even in Neal Morse shows, where Mike Portnoy is just 'the drummer', he is pretty much at the frontline with his playing style, his stage nuances, his body language, etc.
Mike is a guy with enormous charisma and personality, and that shows on stage. He's the guy that speaks, the 'open minded musician', the social media personality, the man that makes most interviews and the guy that is constantly speaking to his fans and feeding them with content. In the MP Warriors world, it's cool to love everything he puts out because he is a hard worker and he seems like a pretty cool guy to hang with. He was probably the biggest man in Dream Theater from 2007 - 2010 in an 'influential' point of view, so that kinda fell apart at the end because the weights weren't balanced anymore. I still insist that their peak as a band was 2006, with their 20th Anniversary World Tour and Score. Portnoy was doing his usual thing of being everywhere, but you knew the other 4 guys were working their assess off as well. Not to say they didn't do so from 2007 - 2010, it's just that they weren't...there, you know? I saw both Chaos in Motion and Black Clouds shows and it did feel a lot like 'The MP Band Experience' to me. It was still DT, I still loved the shows, but it was kind of awkward at times. It's a nice chemistry with Neal Morse for example, but I can see that clashing big time with James LaBrie.
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"It’s where things should be on stage where it’s not somebody in the background trying to grab the limelight, when maybe they should just be grooving or whatever."
Well, what's wrong with that? A lot of fans have also felt the same way. There was an interview with JR where he called MP the "Dream Theater Police", and basically said they feel much more free without him. I thought that was a lot more direct...though I agree 100% with him either way.
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That doesn't sound like a jab to me, just cold sincerity. It's clear James had been feeling that way for quite some years before Portnoy's departure and finally had the opportunity of speaking his mind.
Exactly. But he's really been the only one to show this "cold sincerity". JP won't touch that with a 10 foot pole.
"It’s where things should be on stage where it’s not somebody in the background trying to grab the limelight, when maybe they should just be grooving or whatever."
Well, what's wrong with that? A lot of fans have also felt the same way. There was an interview with JR where he called MP the "Dream Theater Police", and basically said they feel much more free without him. I thought that was a lot more direct...though I agree 100% with him either way.
There's nothing wrong with it. But if James had no axe to grind, there's no way he says that.
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Let's look at all of it in context.
“We were talking about how everything is much more balanced and everyone is in their role or their position.
“It’s where things should be on stage where it’s not somebody in the background trying to grab the limelight, when maybe they should just be grooving or whatever.
“But that’s Mike’s character: he’s big and he wants to be in the limelight. The problem with that is it takes away from the bigger picture: the band as a unit.
“A lot of people have been commenting since we started out on this tour. They’re saying, ‘It feels more like watching a band, with somebody up front singing and interacting, and everybody else just back there.
“There’s always moments when the spotlight’s on the other members, and it should be. But it creates more of a balance.
“We were talking about it and saying, ‘You know, this is really cool – it feels like a unit.’ So it’s a lot better.”
He's not saying "Mike was an asshole." He is comparing the way things are now to the way things were at one time, and is clearly more excited about how they are now.
In any group of 5, some will be closer than others. It's clear that JR and JP were closer to MP than JM or JLB were. That's OK, and it's OK that the current members looked at the loss of MP as an opportunity, and hit the future with positivity and enthusiasm, and eventually excitement for the new status quo. That doesn't really denigrate what they achieved with MP, or MP as an individual.
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Let's look at all of it in context.
“We were talking about how everything is much more balanced and everyone is in their role or their position.
“It’s where things should be on stage where it’s not somebody in the background trying to grab the limelight, when maybe they should just be grooving or whatever.
“But that’s Mike’s character: he’s big and he wants to be in the limelight. The problem with that is it takes away from the bigger picture: the band as a unit.
“A lot of people have been commenting since we started out on this tour. They’re saying, ‘It feels more like watching a band, with somebody up front singing and interacting, and everybody else just back there.
“There’s always moments when the spotlight’s on the other members, and it should be. But it creates more of a balance.
“We were talking about it and saying, ‘You know, this is really cool – it feels like a unit.’ So it’s a lot better.”
He's not saying "Mike was an asshole." He is comparing the way things are now to the way things were at one time, and is clearly more excited about how they are now.
Well, he didn't come right out and say that Mike is an asshole, no. But like I said, there's a way to word a comparison a hell of a lot more diplomatically than he did.
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Even though it's the truth doesn't mean there was venom behind it. James said it in an interview for that reason. It was a shot.
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Even though it's the truth doesn't mean there was venom behind it. James said it in an interview for that reason. It was a shot.
You mean there wasn't venom behind it, right? Because I think there indeed was, and frankly, I don't know how it could be taken any other way, especially considering the history between MP and JLB.
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Excuse me, what a soap.
Ever heard your 'friends' gossiping? Don't know about you, but that exceeds every word James has said about MP in 5 years.
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I've always found James very diplomatic in his interviews. There are only a few examples where you can interpret his words as only slightly "venomous".
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Even though it's the truth doesn't mean there was venom behind it. James said it in an interview for that reason. It was a shot.
You mean there wasn't venom behind it, right? Because I think there indeed was, and frankly, I don't know how it could be taken any other way, especially considering the history between MP and JLB.
But he didn't say anything untrue. He is describing the situation. And he isn't just saying that he wishes MP didn't act the way he did on stage; he is describing it in comparison to the current situation, which apparently works better for all four other members.
I don't know, man, I'm just not seeing any "venom" in that comment.
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I've always found James very diplomatic in his interviews. There are only a few examples where you can interpret his words as only slightly "venomous".
Yes I agree. But it is there though.
I don't know, man, I'm just not seeing any "venom" in that comment.
That's OK.
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Even though it's the truth doesn't mean there was venom behind it. James said it in an interview for that reason. It was a shot.
You mean there wasn't venom behind it, right? Because I think there indeed was, and frankly, I don't know how it could be taken any other way, especially considering the history between MP and JLB.
I think there was venom. That's why he said it in public in an interview. I agree with you Tim.
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If that was a shot JLB took at Portnoy, he is still like 394 shots behind, considering all of the shots Portnoy took at him over the years. Being annoyed at his shot almost sounds defending a bully (Portnoy), when the person who was bullied (LaBrie) finally manned up and hit back. Yes, how dare LaBrie not sit back and just take it anymore!! :tdwn :tdwn
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Even though it's the truth doesn't mean there was venom behind it. James said it in an interview for that reason. It was a shot.
You mean there wasn't venom behind it, right? Because I think there indeed was, and frankly, I don't know how it could be taken any other way, especially considering the history between MP and JLB.
Agreed entirely.
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If that was a shot JLB took at Portnoy, he is still like 394 shots behind
(https://funny-lists.com/Rediff-Tulip/Tools/Tally%20Counter/01/01-Tally-Counter-c.jpg)
I only show 60
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How exactly do you know what I enjoy or not? How do you know the music doesn't (now or then) come first? Because it does. it always does. But I like a LOT of music. I like rock, prog, country, metal, grunge, classical... too much to listen to it all. Literally. I even like One Direction, Demi Lovato and Katy Perry. There is too much to dig into for everything I like. So there are sometimes little things that separate. When Mike showed up at Ed Trunk's radio show with his cassette bootlegs of obscure shows he has (I remember at least one pre-2112 Rush boot) that was ME. Metaphorically.
It's not the disagreement. I live for the disagreement (read the P/R threads). It's never the disagreement. I just got my scruff up when it looked like it DID come down to the personal. I admire those that continue on as a No. 1 Fan after the change, because sometimes I wish I could do that. This isn't the first time that a member has changed in a band I love and the band seemed to lose something. For me, that IS the music; if they put out Images and Words tomorrow (no jokes please!) I'd be in 100%, but I don't think they did that. I feel like I can tell the lack of MP presense on the new material, but since MM is a very high quality drummer (I don't go in for "better" or "worse", only "do I like it more or less") it's still very pleasing to the ears, and they still have LaBrie, who I think is the heart and soul of the DT sound.
Ok, now we're clear.. I wasn't simplifying your opinion, is just that your early comments were a bit too simplistic and, as I know now, they didn't show your entire perspective about these issues.. They're almost all very complex to discuss in a forum.. (But trust me, it wasn't personal.. In fact, it couldn't be, since I don't know you and you don't know me ;))
So while you (wrongly) see this as "black and white, negative and positive", I'm seeing this as nuance on a continuum. And if you want to respect my opinion, you have to judge it in that light, not yours.
NO, not at all!.. I could even agree with you if you want, but no way I see things black or white.. Nothing further from what I always think of everything: there are always gray gradations for ALL kind of stuff..
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If that was a shot JLB took at Portnoy, he is still like 394 shots behind
(https://funny-lists.com/Rediff-Tulip/Tools/Tally%20Counter/01/01-Tally-Counter-c.jpg)
I only show 60
So JLB is 60 shots behind Mike?
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So JLB is 60 shots behind Mike?
It really doesn't matter.
LaBrie, with his beady eyes and flapping head, still hasn't apologized for Bryan Adams.
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If that was a shot JLB took at Portnoy, he is still like 394 shots behind, considering all of the shots Portnoy took at him over the years. Being annoyed at his shot almost sounds defending a bully (Portnoy), when the person who was bullied (LaBrie) finally manned up and hit back. Yes, how dare LaBrie not sit back and just take it anymore!! :tdwn :tdwn
I'm not sure that's the right way of looking at it. When it all kicked off, I was in full agreement that Mike was taking digs and shots and that it wasn't very classy. But then I felt a little uncomfortable when James started doing some of the same, especially when large parts of the fanbase had been praising the band for being classy and taking the high ground. There's no need to take sides, cheap shots are cheap shots, and while Mike may have taken far more of them (probably largely because he speaks publicly far more in general) that doesn't excuse others.
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I agree again. There's no need to choose a side and argue that side is completely infallible or justified in every case.
MP obviously took several shots at DT after his departure, and should have known better, but they're all adults; I think they can handle a few negative words without reacting (and they've done an admirable job of simply ignoring it and moving forward with only minor exceptions). They're not 5 year olds, they're grown men in public jobs, there's nobody being "bullied", and no need to "hit back". It serves no purpose.
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Well, taking shots after a breakup is something I completely understand. After ten years being in a cool band, I realised it wasn't going anywhere and I pulled the plug.
And it hurt like hell, I can tell you. Then it hurt some more watching the others move on with their lives as if you weren't 'the best of buddies' for over ten years.
And I was the one pulling the plug! I should have felt relieved, but hell no. Now imagine that after 25 years . So I totally understand.
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I agree again. There's no need to choose a side and argue that side is completely infallible or justified in every case.
MP obviously took several shots at DT after his departure, and should have known better, but they're all adults; I think they can handle a few negative words without reacting (and they've done an admirable job of simply ignoring it and moving forward with only minor exceptions). They're not 5 year olds, they're grown men in public jobs, there's nobody being "bullied", and no need to "hit back". It serves no purpose.
Yes, but some people seem fixated on JLB's "shot" (if that's what this was), but seem OK with all the comments that MP has made, even dating back to the time that he was still in the band.
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Yeah, off course, it goes without saying that both sides are guilty of the same.
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Yes, but some people seem fixated on JLB's "shot" (if that's what this was), but seem OK with all the comments that MP has made, even dating back to the time that he was still in the band.
Well, that's not me. I actually praise James for the restraint that he has shown. But to say he's never taken a shot at MP, well, that's not true. That's all I was really saying.
MP was up James' ass big time. I've been trying to point that out for years now. It was embarrassing at times.
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"It’s where things should be on stage where it’s not somebody in the background trying to grab the limelight, when maybe they should just be grooving or whatever."
Well, what's wrong with that? A lot of fans have also felt the same way. There was an interview with JR where he called MP the "Dream Theater Police", and basically said they feel much more free without him. I thought that was a lot more direct...though I agree 100% with him either way.
So the definition of attacking someone is whether everyone else agrees with it or not? I try to be as fair as I can be with the limited information we have. If I stumble in that, well, I'm comfortable that a) in the grand scheme of things this means almost nothing, and b) if I'm going to be wrong or inconsistent about something, let it at least be something I am speculating on and not something that is factually unassailable.
Look, I started this, and I stand by my opinion - JLB made comments at the time of Mike's leaving that were less than gracious, and gave indication (at least to me) that there was more than a little relief at his leaving. I never said it was "right" or "wrong", I never said I gave a pass to all the things Mike said (some I do, others - like finding another singer - not so much), and I can't at all say I am "fixated" on any one statement. To me it's not a sports event where we keep tally.
I'm also trying very hard to keep my opinion on this separate from whether we "like" the person or not, but others aren't, and that is unfortunate. I find this problematic, because MP is probably my favorite member, but I can remember first hearing I&W and thinking "HOLY CRAP is that singer good" and also thinking "What is the deal with that double bass drum? Tone it the fuck down, Ringo!". I've said many times that my appreciation for DT has slipped a shade with Mike's leaving, but I would probably not listen to them again if James left/was asked to leave. He is the sound of DT for me. Having said that, I don't care at all for how he handled the break up. I just don't, and he's not the only one, but that's who we're talking about now.
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Yes, but some people seem fixated on JLB's "shot" (if that's what this was), but seem OK with all the comments that MP has made, even dating back to the time that he was still in the band.
Yep.
This pretty much sums it up for me. Shots were certainly fired by MP and arguably JLB as well. But I think everyone involved has moved on...
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I agree again. There's no need to choose a side and argue that side is completely infallible or justified in every case.
MP obviously took several shots at DT after his departure, and should have known better, but they're all adults; I think they can handle a few negative words without reacting (and they've done an admirable job of simply ignoring it and moving forward with only minor exceptions). They're not 5 year olds, they're grown men in public jobs, there's nobody being "bullied", and no need to "hit back". It serves no purpose.
Yes, but some people seem fixated on JLB's "shot" (if that's what this was), but seem OK with all the comments that MP has made, even dating back to the time that he was still in the band.
Has anyone here said that? MP undoubtedly said things that crossed the line after leaving DT (although to be fair I do think a lot of them have been overblown by DTF too).
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Tbh, some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?
B.Lee
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Tbh, some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?
B.Lee
Who says we haven't "moved on"? The question was asked, it was answered. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not losing an iota of sleep over this. It's just interesting (for some of us) to discuss. It's the thread title for gosh sakes (so nothings been hijacked) and it isn't like there are reams and reams of press releases surrounding DT at this point...
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Tbh, some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?
B.Lee
Who says we haven't "moved on"? The question was asked, it was answered. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not losing an iota of sleep over this. It's just interesting (for some of us) to discuss. It's the thread title for gosh sakes (so nothings been hijacked) and it isn't like there are reams and reams of press releases surrounding DT at this point...
MP, is that you?
Btw, I didn't say it wasn't interesting, so you're reading too much into my post and look, I could also interpret your reply as slightly aggressive as almost every other post you wrote in the thread when defending MP. But I won't. Let's move on!
B.Lee
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Tbh, some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?
B.Lee
Who says we haven't "moved on"? The question was asked, it was answered. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not losing an iota of sleep over this.
I don't think anyone is losing any sleep over this. Chill, friend.
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I'm sorry, but I am losing sleep over this, and I refuse to chill.
I was up all last night, and more nights in the past five years than I care to count, worrying about whether or not MP was right, and whether he and JLB will ever be friends again. It just gnaws at me, you know? I love these guys so much -- strictly platonically, mind you -- that it rips me apart seeing them at each other's throats like this. Or rather, metaphorically at each other's throats. Or really just taking digs at each other, even though they were five years ago, and it was actually pretty discrete sometimes. But still, I am losing sleep, and I resent anyone saying that I'm not. Although I have to admit, it's probably just because my wife snores so damned loudly, but you know I can't bring that up. Why would I tell total strangers on some message board that my wife snores so damned loudly that it keeps me awake at night? That wouldn't be appropriate at all, so of course I'd never do that. This is a Dream Theater forum, so presumably discussion should center around Dream Theater, especially in the Dream Theater subforum. So I blame them for me losing so much sleep. There, I said it. I feel better now. (But still kinda sleepy.)
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^ :)
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:lol
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Bob, snoring and ROOOO ROOOOOOOOO's are no way to go through life son.
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I know, and I worry about that. So much, that I'm losing sleep over it. More nights in the past five years than I care to count.
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FAS.. :(
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I agree again. There's no need to choose a side and argue that side is completely infallible or justified in every case.
MP obviously took several shots at DT after his departure, and should have known better, but they're all adults; I think they can handle a few negative words without reacting (and they've done an admirable job of simply ignoring it and moving forward with only minor exceptions). They're not 5 year olds, they're grown men in public jobs, there's nobody being "bullied", and no need to "hit back". It serves no purpose.
Yes, but some people seem fixated on JLB's "shot" (if that's what this was), but seem OK with all the comments that MP has made, even dating back to the time that he was still in the band.
Can't say I've noticed that, but if they are, then obviously they should get a grip.
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Tbh, some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?
B.Lee
Who says we haven't "moved on"? The question was asked, it was answered. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not losing an iota of sleep over this. It's just interesting (for some of us) to discuss. It's the thread title for gosh sakes (so nothings been hijacked) and it isn't like there are reams and reams of press releases surrounding DT at this point...
MP, is that you?
Btw, I didn't say it wasn't interesting, so you're reading too much into my post and look, I could also interpret your reply as slightly aggressive as almost every other post you wrote in the thread when defending MP. But I won't. Let's move on!
B.Lee
No aggression, but help me out a little, as I am confused (and no, I'm NOT MP. though I'd love to spend three hours in his memorabilia "vault"). First you say some of us are "taking it too personally", then when I say no, it's just interesting conversation, I have to chill? I can't speak for Orbert, who is either in denial or delirious from lack of REM sleep (kidding, friend!), but outside of this conversation, I don't give this a moments thought, it CERTAINLY isn't personal, and I'm certainly not going to burn any bridges on the forum over this. If that's not "chill", then I'm old and I don't get the meaning of that word. :)
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Tbh, some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?
B.Lee
Who says we haven't "moved on"? The question was asked, it was answered. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not losing an iota of sleep over this. It's just interesting (for some of us) to discuss. It's the thread title for gosh sakes (so nothings been hijacked) and it isn't like there are reams and reams of press releases surrounding DT at this point...
MP, is that you?
Btw, I didn't say it wasn't interesting, so you're reading too much into my post and look, I could also interpret your reply as slightly aggressive as almost every other post you wrote in the thread when defending MP. But I won't. Let's move on!
B.Lee
No aggression, but help me out a little, as I am confused (and no, I'm NOT MP. though I'd love to spend three hours in his memorabilia "vault"). First you say some of us are "taking it too personally", then when I say no, it's just interesting conversation, I have to chill? I can't speak for Orbert, who is either in denial or delirious from lack of REM sleep (kidding, friend!), but outside of this conversation, I don't give this a moments thought, it CERTAINLY isn't personal, and I'm certainly not going to burn any bridges on the forum over this. If that's not "chill", then I'm old and I don't get the meaning of that word. :)
See, when I said that some here seemed to take the issue personally, you answered back as if I had said YOU took it personally. And, yes, I still find your previous reply a little aggressive, but I'm an old fart, that may explain things a little...Anyways, let's say there was misunderstanding and leave it at that. Life is too short to get angry over things that have nothing to do with us. Peace! :metal
B.Lee
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Tbh, some people here seem to take all that much too personally. Remember, guys, that after all, it has nothing to do with us. MP and JLB seem to have moved on, why can't we?
B.Lee
Who says we haven't "moved on"? The question was asked, it was answered. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not losing an iota of sleep over this. It's just interesting (for some of us) to discuss. It's the thread title for gosh sakes (so nothings been hijacked) and it isn't like there are reams and reams of press releases surrounding DT at this point...
MP, is that you?
Btw, I didn't say it wasn't interesting, so you're reading too much into my post and look, I could also interpret your reply as slightly aggressive as almost every other post you wrote in the thread when defending MP. But I won't. Let's move on!
B.Lee
No aggression, but help me out a little, as I am confused (and no, I'm NOT MP. though I'd love to spend three hours in his memorabilia "vault"). First you say some of us are "taking it too personally", then when I say no, it's just interesting conversation, I have to chill? I can't speak for Orbert, who is either in denial or delirious from lack of REM sleep (kidding, friend!), but outside of this conversation, I don't give this a moments thought, it CERTAINLY isn't personal, and I'm certainly not going to burn any bridges on the forum over this. If that's not "chill", then I'm old and I don't get the meaning of that word. :)
See, when I said that some here seemed to take the issue personally, you answered back as if I had said YOU took it personally. And, yes, I still find your previous reply a little aggressive, but I'm an old fart, that may explain things a little...Anyways, let's say there was misunderstanding and leave it at that. Life is too short to get angry over things that have nothing to do with us. Peace! :metal
B.Lee
Haha, well I feel like I'm the one being quoted, so I view it as a conversation; maybe that's it.
But I agree: certainly no room for being angry here, over this. PEACE.
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Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.
And this is right here the reason that I think Minnemann would have been a better choice (in my opinion). Marco doesn't shy away from writing and composing and IIRC, he plays all of the instruments in his solo outings. The guy just keeps writing and releasing solo albums and collaborations (The Aristocrats, LMR, his solo stuff, which is quite extensive). I think Marco would have pushed DT a little bit of out their comfort zone.
Yeah but then we wouldn't have gotten Marco doing the drum work for Plini's latest EP. And honestly I wouldn't trade that EP for the past 5 DT albums.
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Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.
But he DID contribute with the songwriting.. And, again, MP was important, but not at all a "major part" of the writing.. JP/JR were and still are the main composers..
Anyways, why would it be a problem if a drummer doesn't compose anything? That's what happen in most of bands, even in prog bands..
Yeah but then we wouldn't have gotten Marco doing the drum work for Plini's latest EP. And honestly I wouldn't trade that EP for the past 5 DT albums.
Don't agree now that I'm listening to it, but thanks for the data!, sounds very decent..
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And this is right here the reason that I think Minnemann would have been a better choice (in my opinion). Marco doesn't shy away from writing and composing and IIRC, he plays all of the instruments in his solo outings. The guy just keeps writing and releasing solo albums and collaborations (The Aristocrats, LMR, his solo stuff, which is quite extensive). I think Marco would have pushed DT a little bit of out their comfort zone.
I love Marco, but I'm glad he didn't become the drummer of DT because I feel like if he did, my favorite albums from him wouldn't be released (LMR, and the new Aristocrats album). I haven't heard a lot of his solo stuff but he does play other instruments besides drums for sure. But the collaborations he does are awesome and he'd probably have a lot less time for them if he was in DT.
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Here's the thing - the guy he replaced was a major part of the writing, so there is a vacancy there. I get that he willing stayed out of the songwriting for ADToE, and I'll even give the man a pass for the self-titled album, but this is the third album that he's gonna be on. If he still feels that reluctance to contribute ideas because of that, there's a problem.
But he DID contribute with the songwriting..
I never said he did not - if you look at what I was responding to, it was the comment MM made that he was didn't feel comfortable in fully contributing to the songwriting. My point was that I understood that he wouldn't want to do so on the first album he was on, and even could understand a certain amount of hesitation that he might have in the writing of the second album, but there's a problem if he still feels the same way when working on the third album. I mean the guy has been in DT longer than Derek Sherinian at this point, and you can be sure that this was never a problem for Derek!
And, again, MP was important, but not at all a "major part" of the writing.. JP/JR were and still are the main composers..
Nobody is gonna argue with who creates the majority of the individual parts - since JR's been in the band, it's always been primarily JP and JR. But don't discount MP's involvement in the songwriting process. There were some parts that he himself came up with and he had a major hand in the arranging of the songs. And considering his personality, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the ideas that JP and/or JR came up with were motivated by MP when he was the arranging of songs.
Anyways, why would it be a problem if a drummer doesn't compose anything? That's what happen in most of bands, even in prog bands..
For some bands, no. But that was not the case with DT in the past. In fact the beauty of DT was the blending of ideas from the different guys - in fact I'd love to see JM and JL fully integrated into the songwriting as well. When it's whittled down to just two guys, it potentially takes away from the variety of options/ideas. Besides, when you have an amazing musician like MM in the band who has a bunch of ideas, wouldn't you want to give them all consideration to maybe take the band in a different direction or writing style that previously was unexplored? The worst thing that could happen is that some of those ideas get rejected. That's one of the great things about having a new member join the band - what he/she can contribute.
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Scotty, what songs was MP pretty instrumental in crafting elements to? I know he is behind the main riff for A Rite of Passage.
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Scotty, what songs was MP pretty instrumental in crafting elements to? I know he is behind the main riff for A Rite of Passage.
Good question. There's not that many instances of specific parts of songs being identified as being written by one member or another, but that riff from ARoP was. Also, the opening drum pattern of UaGM was something I know he came up, so it wouldn't surprise me if the melody came from him too.
Another one that comes to mind is New Millennium - while credited to the 4 instrumentalists, MP said on one of the commentaries (I believe the L@B drum DVD) that it was the only song that JP had zero involvement in writing. While it's possible that Derek and JM wrote the whole song and MP only did arranging and lyrics, I'd imagine some song parts were composed by him.
Honestly, a lot of it is speculation, but if the man says that he did compose parts of some DT songs, I'd take that to the bank.
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You know what Scotty, and maybe that is purely wishful thinking on my part, what if the novelty DT are speaking about for the new album was a contribution from all members to at least one song as composers? Now, that would be awesome : everybody would let their ideas flow, musical differences and all, and mesh into a gigantic musical patchwork.
B.Lee
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I'd like to see some new energy in their music. Their stuff has definitely been feeling stale for awhile now. Not bad, just stale and very predictable. Portnoy had the right idea. But this will never happen. They want to keep going and I respect that. Maybe they're afraid of losing popularity; it does seem like they're more popular now than they have ever been.
The last album was a step in the right direction, but certainly far from amazing. I want something more raw, with some faster songs too. I want Awake.
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I want Awake.
It will never happen.
B.Lee
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I want Awake.
It will never happen.
B.Lee
But a man can dream, can't he?
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My point was that I understood that he wouldn't want to do so on the first album he was on, and even could understand a certain amount of hesitation that he might have in the writing of the second album, but there's a problem if he still feels the same way when working on the third album. I mean the guy has been in DT longer than Derek Sherinian at this point, and you can be sure that this was never a problem for Derek!
Well, it's not the same if you're a drummer or a keyboardist regarding the writing.. Derek was much more able in that sense to create songs, the most important thing of these being the melodies, than MM, which we know is not a composer drummer (like Donati, Minnemann, and even like Portnoy, who doesn't know how to write from a string or woodwind instrument, but he does from his own drum, which I think is one of his most important talents).. Mangini is a professor and he knows a lot about music, but he doesn't have any experience in composing, so it's logical that he's not contributing in the music as MP did..
And, again, MP was important, but not at all a "major part" of the writing.. JP/JR were and still are the main composers..
Nobody is gonna argue with who creates the majority of the individual parts - since JR's been in the band, it's always been primarily JP and JR. But don't discount MP's involvement in the songwriting process. There were some parts that he himself came up with and he had a major hand in the arranging of the songs. And considering his personality, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the ideas that JP and/or JR came up with were motivated by MP when he was the arranging of songs.
I'm not discounting at all MP's contributions.. But you said before that MP "was a major part of the writing".. Now you're saying he wasn't.. Anyways, about the rest of the comment above I agree.. MP was the secret ingredient in DT's songwriting..
Besides, when you have an amazing musician like MM in the band who has a bunch of ideas, wouldn't you want to give them all consideration to maybe take the band in a different direction or writing style that previously was unexplored? The worst thing that could happen is that some of those ideas get rejected.
Not if those ideas are bad or don't fit with the band.. Yeah, in the end is kind of paradoxical, because I guess that are JP and JR (mainly) who decides which idea is good or not for a certain song.. But you can't accept an idea only because is coming from an "amazing (technically speaking I assume you mean) musician"..
Scotty, what songs was MP pretty instrumental in crafting elements to? I know he is behind the main riff for A Rite of Passage.
Maybe he was listening very often to Misunderstood's chorus when he came up with that one.. ;D
what if the novelty DT are speaking about for the new album was a contribution from all members to at least one song as composers?
According to them, that already happened in DT12 with TEI, TLG, TBP, BTV, STR and IT.. And they're all great songs..
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My point was that I understood that he wouldn't want to do so on the first album he was on, and even could understand a certain amount of hesitation that he might have in the writing of the second album, but there's a problem if he still feels the same way when working on the third album. I mean the guy has been in DT longer than Derek Sherinian at this point, and you can be sure that this was never a problem for Derek!
Well, it's not the same if you're a drummer or a keyboardist regarding the writing.. Derek was much more able in that sense to create songs, the most important thing of these being the melodies, than MM, which we know is not a composer drummer (like Donati, Minnemann, and even like Portnoy, who doesn't know how to write from a string or woodwind instrument, but he does from his own drum, which I think is one of his most important talents).. Mangini is a professor and he knows a lot about music, but he doesn't have any experience in composing, so it's logical that he's not contributing in the music as MP did..
Well, is it an established fact that MM does not compose or know how to compose ideas? Has he said something to that degree? Considering that the man is/was a professor in the music field, I'd have to imagine the guy knows how to write music as well as MP does.
And for the record, while he'd never be able to give JP a run for the money, MP can play at least some basic guitar - probably to the same extent that JP can play keyboards (keeping in mind, JP brought in Wither as an idea that he played using block chords on a keyboard, not guitar). Not only did MP play bass for Nightmare Cinema, but he also played part of Van Halen's Eruption on the Chaos in Motion tour on JP's guitar during the stretched out intro to Trial of Tears. And I recall seeing him sitting on a couch playing around with one of JP's Ibanez guitars way back in the day, so I think it's safe to say he can play rudimentary ideas to communicate to others if necessary.
And, again, MP was important, but not at all a "major part" of the writing.. JP/JR were and still are the main composers..
Nobody is gonna argue with who creates the majority of the individual parts - since JR's been in the band, it's always been primarily JP and JR. But don't discount MP's involvement in the songwriting process. There were some parts that he himself came up with and he had a major hand in the arranging of the songs. And considering his personality, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the ideas that JP and/or JR came up with were motivated by MP when he was the arranging of songs.
I'm not discounting at all MP's contributions.. But you said before that MP "was a major part of the writing".. Now you're saying he wasn't.. Anyways, about the rest of the comment above I agree.. MP was the secret ingredient in DT's songwriting..
Understood, and maybe I got a bit overzealous in what I posted, altho his skills at arranging were key to their songwriting, which I think we agree on. :)
Besides, when you have an amazing musician like MM in the band who has a bunch of ideas, wouldn't you want to give them all consideration to maybe take the band in a different direction or writing style that previously was unexplored? The worst thing that could happen is that some of those ideas get rejected.
Not if those ideas are bad or don't fit with the band.. Yeah, in the end is kind of paradoxical, because I guess that are JP and JR (mainly) who decides which idea is good or not for a certain song.. But you can't accept an idea only because is coming from an "amazing (technically speaking I assume you mean) musician"..
Oh I'm with you there - if the ideas suck, forget it. But at least he should feel comfortable throwing those ideas out there (at least the ones he feels strongly about) for the others to consider, and I think it's safe to say he's probably got at least a few that might be really good, if not more.
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Right now it seems like Portnoy was right. Even though ADTOE was good, 3 years have now passed since DT12, and that album was more along the lines of the disappointing late Portnoy-era Dream Theater. I know plenty of diehard fans love DT12, but the consensus elsewhere on the internet and offline seems to be that it was not as good as ADTOE.
That said, all it would take for people to stop questioning the new Dream Theater is another great album. No pressure :biggrin:
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Right now it seems like Portnoy was right. Even though ADTOE was good, 3 years have now passed since DT12, and that album was more along the lines of the disappointing late Portnoy-era Dream Theater. I know plenty of diehard fans love DT12, but the consensus elsewhere on the internet and offline seems to be that it was not as good as ADTOE.
How does that make him "right?" What exactly are we questioning if he was "right" about anyway? He wanted a break. That isn't a matter of being "right" or not.
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Right now it seems like Portnoy was right. Even though ADTOE was good, 3 years have now passed since DT12, and that album was more along the lines of the disappointing late Portnoy-era Dream Theater. I know plenty of diehard fans love DT12, but the consensus elsewhere on the internet and offline seems to be that it was not as good as ADTOE.
How does that make him "right?" What exactly are we questioning if he was "right" about anyway? He wanted a break. That isn't a matter of being "right" or not.
Exactly, and besides that, I insist that the break didn't happen.. So is even impossible for us to argue if he was right or not.. There's no valid opinion about that, because the facts were others.. They didn't stop for five years with MP.. They didn't continue with him.. They continued with another drummer.. So the question is pointless :tdwn (I like the thread though :tup)..
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Right now it seems like Portnoy was right. Even though ADTOE was good, 3 years have now passed since DT12, and that album was more along the lines of the disappointing late Portnoy-era Dream Theater. I know plenty of diehard fans love DT12, but the consensus elsewhere on the internet and offline seems to be that it was not as good as ADTOE.
How does that make him "right?" What exactly are we questioning if he was "right" about anyway? He wanted a break. That isn't a matter of being "right" or not.
Right that maybe it was time for DT to hang it up for awhile.
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Right now it seems like Portnoy was right. Even though ADTOE was good, 3 years have now passed since DT12, and that album was more along the lines of the disappointing late Portnoy-era Dream Theater. I know plenty of diehard fans love DT12, but the consensus elsewhere on the internet and offline seems to be that it was not as good as ADTOE.
How does that make him "right?" What exactly are we questioning if he was "right" about anyway? He wanted a break. That isn't a matter of being "right" or not.
Whether he was right or not about DT losing steam & needing a break to catch up & revitalise their creative ability. Basically, would ADTOE & DT12 have been better or worse if Portnoy were still in the band: that's what I think the OP was getting at.
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Whether he was right or not about DT losing steam & needing a break to catch up & revitalise their creative ability. Basically, would ADTOE & DT12 have been better or worse if Portnoy were still in the band: that's what I think the OP was getting at.
Yeah, I read his first comment and that's exactly what he meant, though I still find no sense at all in the question since we only have hypothetical situations to talk about.. We have to imagine that other possibility (MP being in the band) to answer the question..
I think, in the end, is all a matter of tastes.. The ones who like ADToE and DT12, as I do, wouldn't be saying MP was right.. And those who don't like them, would say he was.. To put it simple.. So is not about him being right, but about the albums without him being good or not..
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Whether he was right or not about DT losing steam & needing a break to catch up & revitalise their creative ability. Basically, would ADTOE & DT12 have been better or worse if Portnoy were still in the band: that's what I think the OP was getting at.
Yeah, I read his first comment and that's exactly what he meant, though I still find no sense at all in the question since we only have hypothetical situations to talk about.. We have to imagine that other possibility (MP being in the band) to answer the question..
I think, in the end, is all a matter of tastes.. The ones who like ADToE and DT12, as I do, wouldn't be saying MP was right.. And those who don't like them, would say he was.. To put it simple.. So is not about him being right, but about the albums without him being good or not..
Yeah that's kind of my point. Obviously there's no objectively right or wrong answer to this question, it was just a way to spark discussion. Saying "well we can't go back in time and actually compare the output of the band with and without Portnoy convincing them all to take a break, therefore it's completely valueless to discusses it" is missing the point.
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Whether he was right or not about DT losing steam & needing a break to catch up & revitalise their creative ability. Basically, would ADTOE & DT12 have been better or worse if Portnoy were still in the band: that's what I think the OP was getting at.
Maybe I don't fully understand the situation, I don't really care, but I thought MP wanted a break for personal reasons, more than thinking the band itself needed a break. And so, if MP was still in the band and they went on a break, we wouldn't even have had the last two albums because the band wouldn't have been doing anything, so it is a weird "what if?" to think about. 2 decent releases are almost always better than no releases.
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I just hope DT and MP can reach a commercial agreement to release the stuff on MP's vault as part of the YTSEJAM records...
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Well, is it an established fact that MM does not compose or know how to compose ideas? Has he said something to that degree? Considering that the man is/was a professor in the music field, I'd have to imagine the guy knows how to write music as well as MP does.
I could be way off on this because I can't remember exactly where I thought I heard this, but I remember MM saying in an interview that he does write songs, but he keeps them separate from DT. I don't remember if he gave a reason or not, but if this is accurate then I'd hope it's not because he feels like he shouldn't be able to provide these ideas to the band. Considering how his kit is set up and how interested he is in making it all fit in melodically with the rest of the band he must be able to compose something I'd think...
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
Well, I for one think they are both rather sub par, although there is some decent stuff on each album.
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
Well, I for one think they are both rather sub par, although there is some decent stuff on each album.
Well thats just like... your opinion man...
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
I thought ADTOE was one of the favorites among many, and DT12 has very mixed opinions, but never thought people believed them to both be 'average at best' to the majority.
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
I thought ADTOE was one of the favorites among many, and DT12 has very mixed opinions, but never thought people believed them to both be 'average at best' to the majority.
You are correct.
Shine is most definitely not.
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
I thought ADTOE was one of the favorites among many, and DT12 has very mixed opinions, but never thought people believed them to both be 'average at best' to the majority.
You are correct.
Shine is most definitely not.
As has been stated in other threads, it depends whether "average" means "DT average" or "average in general. Neither album appears much above the midpoint in overall DT album rankings, though I would assume most on this board would think of most/all of the band's work as well above the overall average of the music that is produced in the world.
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
I thought ADTOE was one of the favorites among many, and DT12 has very mixed opinions, but never thought people believed them to both be 'average at best' to the majority.
You are correct.
Shine is most definitely not.
As has been stated in other threads, it depends whether "average" means "DT average" or "average in general. Neither album appears much above the midpoint in overall DT album rankings, though I would assume most on this board would think of most/all of the band's work as well above the overall average of the music that is produced in the world.
Exactly.. And I think Shine meant to say "DT average".. Which means they're pretty good for most of us comparing those albums with the rest of the music we like, while they're not comparing them with the rest of DT albums..
It's very convenient in my case, because I rank them precisely right in the middle, along with SFaM.. So :| but :hefdaddy
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
I thought ADTOE was one of the favorites among many, and DT12 has very mixed opinions, but never thought people believed them to both be 'average at best' to the majority.
You are correct.
Shine is most definitely not.
As has been stated in other threads, it depends whether "average" means "DT average" or "average in general. Neither album appears much above the midpoint in overall DT album rankings, though I would assume most on this board would think of most/all of the band's work as well above the overall average of the music that is produced in the world.
I meant DT average, thought it was pretty obvious but that might be on me. I wouldn't say when Shine says the albums are "average at best" it is instantly assumed to be both albums being either 5th 6th or 7th, usually when someone calls an album average at best, they mean it won't exceed that level of averageness, and there's definitely not a wide consensus that that's the case for these albums.
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Every bit of this. IMO, SC was their worst album, and still is. BCSL was not really much better. The step up in quality after the change was...well...dramatic.
MP was correct that the band needed a fresh direction, it was just obviously not anticipated that the fresh direction would come via a split.
Yup. ADTOE was the best album they've put out in a while. IMO the best since Awake even.
Portnoy was right that the band needed a reboot, but as someone else mentioned, he seemed to be the one that always wanted things to be heavier and heavier. That heavy sound just doesn't work in overdoses with DT's musical style. SC was them trying way too hard to sound like Metallica and even Pantera at some points.
Their last two albums were far more dynamic tone-wise. I still think they're a bit too far on the heavy side, but they're making good music. And that doesn't mean I don't appreciate their heavy songs. Lie was what got me into DT, and Bridges in the Sky is probably my second-favorite song on ADTOE, but I appreciate sonic diversity (beyond just throwing in a piano ballad here or there). I really like Looking Glass (and it seems like Spotify users agree, as it's got the most listens out of any non pre-released song).
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A couple weeks ago I got to see the Winery Dogs, the first time seeing MP since he played with DT at MSG opening for Iron Maiden. I got to say, he went from playing good sized venues and be a focal point of a big bang to playing a small venue and not being a focal point of a small band. I would imagine from monetary standpoint that leaving DT was not the best choice.
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True, but I've always gotten a sense that with MP, it was not about the money. Now, part of that could easily be because when he was with DT and they were selling lots of albums and concert tickets, the money was flowing in and wasn't an issue, so it didn't matter if all those side projects didn't make much money. Now that all he has are these smaller projects, I'm sure he's feeling a bit of income pinch, but it's clear that he's always loved playing different things, doing different things musically, and for a true artist, that's still the most important thing.
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True, but I've always gotten a sense that with MP, it was not about the money. Now, part of that could easily be because when he was with DT and they were selling lots of albums and concert tickets, the money was flowing in and wasn't an issue, so it didn't matter if all those side projects didn't make much money. Now that all he has are these smaller projects, I'm sure he's feeling a bit of income pinch, but it's clear that he's always loved playing different things, doing different things musically, and for a true artist, that's still the most important thing.
I would hope as an artist that yes, its not ALL about the money, but we are all humans who need money to survive and life the lives we live. I was just trying to make a point about "was he right?" from a monetary angle. At the same time though, I only gave one example, he has enough other things going on that maybe it all adds up.
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True, but I've always gotten a sense that with MP, it was not about the money. Now, part of that could easily be because when he was with DT and they were selling lots of albums and concert tickets, the money was flowing in and wasn't an issue, so it didn't matter if all those side projects didn't make much money. Now that all he has are these smaller projects, I'm sure he's feeling a bit of income pinch, but it's clear that he's always loved playing different things, doing different things musically, and for a true artist, that's still the most important thing.
I would hope as an artist that yes, its not ALL about the money, but we are all humans who need money to survive and life the lives we live. I was just trying to make a point about "was he right?" from a monetary angle. At the same time though, I only gave one example, he has enough other things going on that maybe it all adds up.
I think his playing with Avenged Sevenfold was fairly compensated as well as the Twisted Sister gig he currently has. I think Adrenaline Mob was a financial disaster when they first started, not sure how they are doing now (although I would probably still see Amob because Russell is the fucking man!!). Transatlantic and Flying Colors on a financial point of view, would be on the middle of the pack (same for the Neal Morse gigs), although not even close to what he had in DT. This is all just speculation on my part. And I would guess the royalties he still gets from DT plus the compensation he got when leaving are/were pretty decent.
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True, but I've always gotten a sense that with MP, it was not about the money. Now, part of that could easily be because when he was with DT and they were selling lots of albums and concert tickets, the money was flowing in and wasn't an issue, so it didn't matter if all those side projects didn't make much money. Now that all he has are these smaller projects, I'm sure he's feeling a bit of income pinch, but it's clear that he's always loved playing different things, doing different things musically, and for a true artist, that's still the most important thing.
I would hope as an artist that yes, its not ALL about the money, but we are all humans who need money to survive and life the lives we live. I was just trying to make a point about "was he right?" from a monetary angle. At the same time though, I only gave one example, he has enough other things going on that maybe it all adds up.
I hear you. The monetary angle is a valid concern. I'm sure Mike would prefer not to become some kind of starving artist, literally not making enough to live on as he pursues he artistic ambitions, but I'm also sure that that would never happen.
Just as you were only bringing up the monetary angle as another way of looking at whether or not it was the "right" decision, I was balancing that by pointing out that the monetary angle should not be the primary consideration. I agree that at the very least, it should be considered.
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The guy is human and has a family, he has a bottom line like us all. However I do agree that he is a great and well enough known musician that he isnt going to be at that point where money is a problem. Just interesting to think about. It's so personal so maybe its not even something to discuss, but I often do wonder how much musicians make and how all that works out for them.
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I believe he said he actually lost money on Adrenaline Mob. He actually invested his personal money into that band so that they could tour in a bus instead of a van and other stuff (I am assuming the first ep they put out was financed by him...the one that was sold through his website before they got their record deal). This is just from my recollection of interviews but I am almost positive thats what he said.
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I think Shine is pretty much right about the albums being "average" although I'd leave the "at best" part out.
If you look around different aggregate review sites like I do, both ADTOE and DT12 score marks consistent with the rest of the post-SDOIT discog. Nothing exceptionally high or low. I think ADTOE was a sigh of relief for fans, but I'd be surprised to see if most people consider it a to DT album.
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I noticed on ADTOE that they borrowed arrangements from I&W right away, but I always chalked that up to pressure on JP to deliver on time and in spirit of band. However much that speaks to Portony's original reasoning, DT lost a huge part of their identity and left to find a new one. There are some great songs on it regardless. BAI for me was an instant classic.
The self-titled they were able to go back to the way they made some past records, collaboratively in the studio and on-the-fly. MM making significant contribution and was very exciting, Enemy Inside intro is bananas. There is so much strong original musicianship and arranging.
Next album they will have been together like this for more than half a decade, and from the looks of it they are really throwing the kitchen sink at it collectively. So here’s hoping for a very strong, original sound.
BCASL as the last album till now would have been a big musical loss in hindsight. They have produced some material extremely worthy of previous DT catalog since. And MP is very productive and diversified now which is probably great for him personally. He gave everything he had with DT, 110%, left it all on the field, no doubts several lifetimes of work for mere mortals. Always felt that they all made the right choices for themselves even if it was really tough on all of them.
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Portnoy was right, DT should have just taken a break. The music is starting to sound way too same-ey. The S/T album was good, but imagine what it could have been had they taken another year or two to build more inspiration. With or without Portnoy. They can still take that break but it's a shame they probably won't.
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Maybe Portnoy should have cut down the side projects so he could feel refreshed with the band he had most invested with.
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Maybe Portnoy should have cut down the side projects so he could feel refreshed with the band he had most invested with.
Perhaps, but I don't think so. The man is a workaholic. Recently he posted on Facebook a comment about how he loved being out on the road (but loved the photo his wife sent him of one of his dogs), and there's been other posts he's made in the past where he gets bored when he's at home for too long a time.
I *think* the biggest thing was that besides not feeling the strong bond of friendship not only between him and the other guys, but amongst the other 4 guys themselves, that he was confined by having to commit so much time to DT. When your stuck doing the same thing for a long period of time, after a while it can get pretty old, and while I don't think he's ever felt that way about making music (studio or live), it seems that it finally got to that point for him with DT. So I doubt cutting back on the side projects would've helped the situation.
However, the one thing that I wish he would've done was express his feelings to the rest of the band much earlier, around the time that he started getting those nagging feels (which I think went as far back as the ProgNation tour in Europe). Had he done that, maybe he and the rest of the band could've avoided what ended up happening. Maybe not. But I think it would've been a wiser choice than unexpectedly springing it on the rest of the guys when they're getting ready to talk about their plans for their next album.
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Yeah, I tend to agree with that. A five year (or anyway, indefinite) hiatus was a bad idea, but maybe if he would have started to suggest somehow "Hey guys, from earlier plans we made September will be the time when we'll regroup for the next cycle... how about skipping just a year? spend more time with side projects and then seeing each other in 12 months full of fresh ideas?"... maybe the others would have been more open to the idea.
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However, the one thing that I wish he would've done was express his feelings to the rest of the band much earlier, around the time that he started getting those nagging feels (which I think went as far back as the ProgNation tour in Europe). Had he done that, maybe he and the rest of the band could've avoided what ended up happening. Maybe not. But I think it would've been a wiser choice than unexpectedly springing it on the rest of the guys when they're getting ready to talk about their plans for their next album.
I agree.
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I don't..
The main problem WAS Portnoy himself..
That's why I take it as a paradoxical issue.. Portnoy was right, only because he wasn't.. He was right that it should've been a change in the band.. But he wasn't that a hiatus was precisely the better choice for it..
I think he's the best drummer I've heard.. And for that I felt deeply bad, and I still do even today, about him leaving the band; but, OTOH, I'm glad they've found that new sense of freshness they supposedly needed.. So it's black AND white for me.. :|
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Even MP himself knew that a change needed to happen and he figured a hiatus was the best way to make it happen, not just for him but for the rest of the band - as I said in my last post, it seems MP thought that the relationships between the other guys had become hum-drum as well. But as MP also acknowledged, his leaving the band forced the change that he felt was needed.
Now here's the thing - had MP continued in the band (since you feel he was in the wrong for thinking that a hiatus was the only solution and leaving when the rest of the guys didn't agree), would the band have found that change and refreshing that was needed? While it's all speculation, probably not - if it would've been up to the other guys, it would've been business as usual since they didn't see any problems with how things were going.
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Scotty is much closer to the band than I will ever be but my take on the events was that MP was struggling for a long time with
his relationships with JLB and possibly Myung. And it got worse and worse and like all of us there comes a day of clarity and it
can come out of the blue. At some point he realized that it wasn't possible to pretend any longer. Pretend that they were all buds.
They weren't. He was diggin' the vibes and new relationships with A7X and remembering how it 'used to be' when all the guys
in DT were buds and hung out together and laughed and ate together and one day he woke up and *BAM*...that was it.
No more pretending. As hard as it was, it was time to stop pretending and move on.
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Scotty is much closer to the band than I will ever be but my take on the events was that MP was struggling for a long time with
his relationships with JLB and possibly Myung.
I still wonder what went south with James and when. We all know the band gave him an ultimatum after Six Degrees, he shaped up, got better, and I still vividly remember around the Octavarium era a very strong post from Portnoy defending LaBrie on his board.
Basically there was one of those hypothetical "What if" threads speculating about possible singers in DT other than James, and Mike made a long post from which I still remember the line "Since [whatever tour it was, possibly Train of Thought's] I had nothing but words of praise for James" stating how his voice was unique, was fitting to the band, and how no other singers could have done the things he was doing in DT, ending, again I paraphrase from memory, with something like "X and Y cannot do those things in Dream Theater. James can. That's why *he is* the singer of Dream Theater" (I still remember the emphasis on *he is* written that way), and then he closed the thread I believe. Like saying, "He's our singer, he's the best for the job, he's here to stay, deal with it".
And then a couple of years later the split happens, and it becomes clear how much they didn't get along... it would be a pity if the relationship got better around the ToT / Octavarium era and then soured again beyond repair.
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Purely speculation, but putting differences "aside" doesn't necessarily mean that they disappear indefinitely. Obviously with there being some distaste between the two of them, they managed to squash it under the doormat in order to keep things concise and solidified - a "show must go on" attitude, if you will. I have no idea what exactly happened - never will either - but perhaps tensions flared up again when Portnoy felt like it was time for them to take that break? Perhaps that was the moment where Labrie essentially stood up and let out a lot of what he was holding in.
This could all be completely opposite and upside down in comparison to the reality of it all. At the same time however, our reality - looking outside of the box - are essentially assumptions within the gaps that haven't been filled by the bandmates, of course.
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Maybe Portnoy should have cut down the side projects so he could feel refreshed with the band he had most invested with.
Perhaps, but I don't think so. The man is a workaholic. Recently he posted on Facebook a comment about how he loved being out on the road (but loved the photo his wife sent him of one of his dogs), and there's been other posts he's made in the past where he gets bored when he's at home for too long a time.
I *think* the biggest thing was that besides not feeling the strong bond of friendship not only between him and the other guys, but amongst the other 4 guys themselves, that he was confined by having to commit so much time to DT. When your stuck doing the same thing for a long period of time, after a while it can get pretty old, and while I don't think he's ever felt that way about making music (studio or live), it seems that it finally got to that point for him with DT. So I doubt cutting back on the side projects would've helped the situation.
However, the one thing that I wish he would've done was express his feelings to the rest of the band much earlier, around the time that he started getting those nagging feels (which I think went as far back as the ProgNation tour in Europe). Had he done that, maybe he and the rest of the band could've avoided what ended up happening. Maybe not. But I think it would've been a wiser choice than unexpectedly springing it on the rest of the guys when they're getting ready to talk about their plans for their next album.
I understand and as a fan, I loved MP for everything he did with DT and all the side projects I loved. I think asking for a 5 year stop was too much. Take a year or 2 off.
The relationship thing is also 2 sided. At some point you know some band members are the leaders and the followers and it is just that. In the end I still love DT and most of MP's output so it's a win/win for me.
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Scotty is much closer to the band than I will ever be but my take on the events was that MP was struggling for a long time with
his relationships with JLB and possibly Myung.
I still wonder what went south with James and when. We all know the band gave him an ultimatum after Six Degrees, he shaped up, got better, and I still vividly remember around the Octavarium era a very strong post from Portnoy defending LaBrie on his board.
I think one of the main issues, IIRC, was that MP was very open in several interviews on how he would have liked a different singer in this modern era. He clarified that James was the voice of DT, buthe pretty much repeated this every time he was asked this question. He was too sincere in my opinion in the interviews regarding James and his voice. It probably rubbed James the wrong way and I don't blame him.
In a marriage analogies .............. :facepalm:
"Yeah, I married your mom, but my other GF was hotter" :biggrin:
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Scotty is much closer to the band than I will ever be but my take on the events was that MP was struggling for a long time with
his relationships with JLB and possibly Myung.
I still wonder what went south with James and when. We all know the band gave him an ultimatum after Six Degrees, he shaped up, got better, and I still vividly remember around the Octavarium era a very strong post from Portnoy defending LaBrie on his board.
Basically there was one of those hypothetical "What if" threads speculating about possible singers in DT other than James, and Mike made a long post from which I still remember the line "Since [whatever tour it was, possibly Train of Thought's] I had nothing but words of praise for James" stating how his voice was unique, was fitting to the band, and how no other singers could have done the things he was doing in DT, ending, again I paraphrase from memory, with something like "X and Y cannot do those things in Dream Theater. James can. That's why *he is* the singer of Dream Theater" (I still remember the emphasis on *he is* written that way), and then he closed the thread I believe. Like saying, "He's our singer, he's the best for the job, he's here to stay, deal with it".
And then a couple of years later the split happens, and it becomes clear how much they didn't get along... it would be a pity if the relationship got better around the ToT / Octavarium era and then soured again beyond repair.
My take when it really hit the fan is when MP commented in an interview that he wouldn't choose JLB as the singer for a modern DT.
That is not a direct quote but it was close. There was a thread on his site at the time and I specifically remember saying this
was not a good omen and that you don't call out your bandmates publicly. There were several people there who said I was
making way too big a deal of it (and I think possibly even a mod) but I knew it WAS a big deal. Things had probably been falling
apart for quite some time but when MP said that...I knew things were not right. Then (pure speculation on my part and not
knowing DT's schedule or JLB's schedule) they sent in Raw Dog (with no JLB) when every other band used their full band
that made me think even more that something was not right. Again...maybe JLB was not available but submitting a song
that does not include vocals sent an odd vibe for me.
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I never thought submitting an instrumental at that point was a big deal TBH.
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I understand and as a fan, I loved MP for everything he did with DT and all the side projects I loved. I think asking for a 5 year stop was too much. Take a year or 2 off.
The relationship thing is also 2 sided. At some point you know some band members are the leaders and the followers and it is just that. In the end I still love DT and most of MP's output so it's a win/win for me.
Same here. Regardless of what I think of Mike Portnoy the man, it never stops me from enjoying the music he is a part of. Well, unless it sucks ass like Adrenaline Mob. :lol :lol But hey, since he left DT, he's been a part of another Transatlantic record, three more Neal Morse studio albums, and the two Flying Colors albums, all of which are great (to varying degrees), so it is win-win for me, too. :tup :tup
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I'm the exact opposite. My favorite musician basically dropped off the map. :-[
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I never thought submitting an instrumental at that point was a big deal TBH.
I agree - the reasoning was that they wanted to put a song together quickly, and since they had all sorts of sections of songs that had not been used during the BCaSL writing sessions, they put some of those together to come up with Raw Dog, went into the studio and cut it. Having to take the time to write lyrics would've taken more time.
But getting back to the point about MP vs. JL, I agree that there was friction that probably developed over time because of MP being a little to forthcoming with his feelings about JL's voice. That's just not something that you do. So while it stayed out of the public eye, who knows how much was said between them? Probably a decent amount so that there wasn't much love lost between them. Then after MP split and the whole mess with MP gullibly reading a Blabbermouth headline (without reading the article) and pulling a thread on his forum regarding JL's solo tour (which, IIRC never happened), that's when things went from bad to much worse between them.
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I don't see doing Raw Dog as being a big deal either. Given the nature of that video game or whatever, it had to be an instrumental.
And I look at it this way, TAC: if Portnoy stays in DT, we still get just as many Neal Morse albums (since Neal writes an album a year seemingly). Hard to say if he would have had time for another TA album that soon. However, does Flying Colors even exist if he stays in DT? Quite possibly no. And considering how much I like ADTOE, DT12 and both FC albums, I consider that a major win from an output standpoint, even with A-Mob being a total flop. Winery Dogs I don't really factor in; it's solid hard rock, but not something I ever listen to.
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I'm the exact opposite. My favorite musician basically dropped off the map. :-[
But your favorite musician was a big part of why he is not there anymore.
Maybe Scotty can answer this but did MP try to talk things out with JLB and JM?
I wonder if both side sat on their hands not talking to each other and instead of time off, they should have worked out these issues?
If I was in James shoes and one of the band member came out saying I wasn't a fit for his vision anymore I'd have an attitude as well. Those issues should be private between band members to work out not in the public.
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Now here's the thing - had MP continued in the band (since you feel he was in the wrong for thinking that a hiatus was the only solution and leaving when the rest of the guys didn't agree), would the band have found that change and refreshing that was needed? While it's all speculation, probably not - if it would've been up to the other guys, it would've been business as usual since they didn't see any problems with how things were going.
No, I meant to say that the right choice was, unfortunately, the one that it ended up happening.. i.e., MP leaving the band.. This is hypothetical too, but I think the change would've not necessarily followed the five years hiatus: it would've just postponed it five years or so.. MP would've wanted another break, and so on.. Because he IS like that.. That's why I think he was the problem.. His personality was..
And, the fact that he was an important part of the composition, made his absence inevitably causing a change and huge renovation to the band..
I understand and as a fan, I loved MP for everything he did with DT and all the side projects I loved. I think asking for a 5 year stop was too much. Take a year or 2 off.
The relationship thing is also 2 sided. At some point you know some band members are the leaders and the followers and it is just that. In the end I still love DT and most of MP's output so it's a win/win for me.
Same here. Regardless of what I think of Mike Portnoy the man, it never stops me from enjoying the music he is a part of. Well, unless it sucks ass like Adrenaline Mob. :lol :lol But hey, since he left DT, he's been a part of another Transatlantic record, three more Neal Morse studio albums, and the two Flying Colors albums, all of which are great (to varying degrees), so it is win-win for me, too. :tup :tup
Hey, for me too!.. I don't like that much the prog rock side, but I do enjoy the Adrenaline Mob records, so... (mostly the second album, if you didn't hear it you can give it a shot ;))
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One, can we give the "five years" thing a rest? It might have been said at the time, but there are too many interviews to link to that say "five years was a starting point, but ANY break would have worked". I just saw a video interview with Mike not a week ago where he reiterated that the length was totally and fully negotiable.
Two, bands don't have to be "best friends" to be good, creative or productive. Gene and Paul are not friends and don't hang out much. Aerosmith. Priest (Halford is on record saying they haven't spoken once to KK since his "retirement", and when he was out of the band - ten years or so - he didn't speak to the band once). Pearl Jam (watch the "Twenty" documentary). Pink Floyd (even Gilmour and Mason, the two surviving members, are not best friends). Fleetwood Mac. Jane's Addiction. The Rocking, Rolling Stones. It's nice to think every band is like Rush, where the band members sit down to nice evening long dinners and give gifts and drink wine (see the Rush documentary for that), but that's not reality. It is more like a sports team. You don't have to like the guy next to you, you just have to trust him to do his job when the clock is ticking.
Three, I think it is a horrible mischaracterization (and an abdication of responsibility on the part of the other band members) to say "MP was the problem". It takes two - in this case, five - to tango, and any relationship problem is at least some part the fault of both parties. I think the JLB thing was ongoing (watch the Systematic Chaos documentary) and I think the "James recording on his own in Canada" had at least something to do with that. But I don't think it was the cause. I think there was something - and we don't know what it is, because it's never been spoken about except in implication - that erupted between the two captains, JP and MP, and when that went down, it was just natural that JLB would pick his side. It didn't help matters, but that wasn't the root cause.
Four, my opinion only, but Mike was right. I don't think the last two albums are bad, per se, as I would listen to them over a lot of what is in my collection, but they are not "great DT records". There was an essence, a coherence, a vibe to the MP-era albums that are not there now. I think it akin to "A Momentary Lapse of Reason"; of COURSE that is a Floyd album, and certainly "The Division Bell" is a very good Floyd album. But it's not Wish You Were Here (but then again, what is?), nor does it have the vibe and feel of Wish You Were Here.
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I didn't imply "best friends" so maybe you are not addressing my post.
You don't have to be buds but you DO have to be able to tolerate each other. And again I could be totally wrong but I think it had reached
the point where they couldn't even tolerate each other.
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Four, my opinion only, but Mike was right. I don't think the last two albums are bad, per se, as I would listen to them over a lot of what is in my collection, but they are not "great DT records". There was an essence, a coherence, a vibe to the MP-era albums that are not there now. I think it akin to "A Momentary Lapse of Reason"; of COURSE that is a Floyd album, and certainly "The Division Bell" is a very good Floyd album. But it's not Wish You Were Here (but then again, what is?), nor does it have the vibe and feel of Wish You Were Here.
Still, The division bell is a better album than The Final Cut, in The Pink Floyd case Waters leaving was for me a good thing. Maybe the first two album with Mangini are DT's A momentary lapse of reason, they have a lot of time to release their Division Bell
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Those last 2 Floyd albums we better than The Final Cut. Let's be honest, you are absolutely right that it takes two, but if I had another band member talking about replacing me as the singer, I've have problems with him. That should be private Stadler. I just think mike handled everything the wrong way. He leaves everything on his sleeve and sometime you need to handle things in house. I also think how the other 3 bandmates reacted by moving on quickly says that they we all frustrated by Mike.
I don't know the inner workings of them privately but how quick they moved on says a lot.
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I agree with all that, but it also helps to keep in mind that the clock was ticking. After the usual break following an album/tour, the time had come to get back together and start talking about the next album. It was then that Mike suggested the break. (This is how I remember things; I could be way off.) So okay, the conversation didn't go the way Mike had imagined, and shortly after, he's gone. Yes, the band recovered quickly, set up auditions, found a new drummer, made the next album, but in a sense, they had to. They knew that a band that disappears from the scene for too long gets forgotten, or at least loses momentum, which was a big part of the argument against taking a break in the first place. That same attitude I'm sure pushed them to not let the process go on too long. Not that it was a decision to make lightly, but I'm sure there was a certain sense of urgency to find a new drummer and get the new album done.
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Totally agree with kingshmegland..
One, can we give the "five years" thing a rest? It might have been said at the time, but there are too many interviews to link to that say "five years was a starting point, but ANY break would have worked". I just saw a video interview with Mike not a week ago where he reiterated that the length was totally and fully negotiable.
Yeah, I know that.. I was just saying "five" years because that's longer than one or two, in which you might not have any change at all.. With five (and, as some have said before, this is all speculation) is likely that they would had a change, but then the problems and "stress" would've been back.. Because you don't change your personality in five-or even more-years.. You calm down the things a little, but if there's a major problem, you can't stop this from happening again and again.. And there was a major problem..
I think it is a horrible mischaracterization (and an abdication of responsibility on the part of the other band members) to say "MP was the problem". It takes two - in this case, five - to tango, and any relationship problem is at least some part the fault of both parties.
I think that, because he was the one "stressing" the band.. The thing on stage we'll never know if actually bothered or not the guys, but what did bother them, and this has also been said in interviews, was the rotating setlists.. Specially to JR, who had to reprogramme his keyboard everytime only because MP wanted to play songs in places they didn't have yet.. But also the others, who had to learn songs everytime and remember well the order, etc (and we're not precisely talking of easy songs, even when we know their abilities..)
But much has been said in this thread about this.. I'll only mention one more example, that even you have pointed out: MP thought there was a problem, because he realised they weren't friends, and that's why he thought there should've been a break.. But, as you said it, they don't have to be friends to be in a band, and to create songs.. In fact, they did BC&SL with that deteriorated relationship, and for me is one of their best albums.. So I agree about that, but then you should recognize that MP was wrong in that..
That's, anyway, only one of the reasons I think the problem was Portnoy.. Obviously, I know that sounds very simplistic on my part, but I think the arrival of MM and the good vibe of the band since then gives it even more sense..
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About the MP vs JLB thing you guys mentioned:
In 2010, during the BCSL tour, I went to the show in a nearby city and got to see the entire thing right in front of the stage. I ended up seeing something really tense.
At the end of a verse MP made a gesture to JLB that I couldn't figure out what it meant, but it was clear that JLB didn't like it. His immediate reaction was to grab by the pedestal by it's base and put the mic right in front of MP's face.
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They knew that a band that disappears from the scene for too long gets forgotten, or at least loses momentum,
Which is what is happening to Porcupine Tree :sad:
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I remember watching something where JLB said it was nice now not having someone (MP) on stage constantly showing off and taking all the focus. He was implying something like the attention of the audience was more evenly spread out now.
Perhaps JLB and Portnoy were having a battle of egos. They both wanted to be the star.
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They knew that a band that disappears from the scene for too long gets forgotten, or at least loses momentum,
Which is what is happening to Porcupine Tree :sad:
I don't think that's the case with PT.
The only thing with Porcupine Tree is that the music was mostly from Steven Wilson, and he is still incredibly active but releasing music under his own name. As long as Steven is such a strong name within the genre, none of his projects will fall to obscurity. True, it's obvious the band isn't what it was back in 2009, but I'm perfectly fine with Steven doing what he's been doing.
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They knew that a band that disappears from the scene for too long gets forgotten, or at least loses momentum,
Which is what is happening to Porcupine Tree :sad:
I don't think that's the case with PT.
The only thing with Porcupine Tree is that the music was mostly from Steven Wilson, and he is still incredibly active but releasing music under his own name. As long as Steven is such a strong name within the genre, none of his projects will fall to obscurity. True, it's obvious the band isn't what it was back in 2009, but I'm perfectly fine with Steven doing what he's been doing.
But PT was at its peak, same as Dream Theater when MP suggested the break/hiatus. PT went with it and now it's been 6 years with no album or tour. PT gained a lot of territory in North America during their last two tours. It's going to be real hard to regain that momentum, at least in NA. Europe is a different market and I see them embracing the band very quickly. Yes, I realize that SW was Porcupine Tree in a sense, but overall, the band had a distinct sound and the players made PT in some way, that SW hasn't been able to replicate in his solo outputs. Don't get me wrong, I love SW's solo albums, but PT had something that I still haven't been able to see or identify in his solo stuff.
Back to discussing DT ;)
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I should add that perhaps MP feels that DT should approach it like Iron Maiden does and only release an album every 4 years or so. Personally I feel they should.
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I remember watching something where JLB said it was nice now not having someone (MP) on stage constantly showing off and taking all the focus. He was implying something like the attention of the audience was more evenly spread out now.
Perhaps JLB and Portnoy were having a battle of egos. They both wanted to be the star.
I should add that perhaps MP feels that DT should approach it like Iron Maiden does and only release an album every 4 years or so. Personally I feel they should.
You can also see an example of that in the canadian rap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKmnlvO47E
The star "should" be the singer, and not the drummer.. But there you hear how MP forces him to sing against his will.. JLB clearly didn't want to do it, but he start playing and there's no turning back.. Besides, at the end MP interrupts him to make a joke, and thus getting the applause.. Now that he's gone from DT, I must quote Iron Maiden: Tears of a Clown.. :'( :lol
And, precisely about Maiden, I don't think so about the album every 4 years.. IM has 10 years more than DT.. They're old, and that's why they do that.. DT is not.. Still..
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About the MP vs JLB thing you guys mentioned:
In 2010, during the BCSL tour, I went to the show in a nearby city and got to see the entire thing right in front of the stage. I ended up seeing something really tense.
At the end of a verse MP made a gesture to JLB that I couldn't figure out what it meant, but it was clear that JLB didn't like it. His immediate reaction was to grab by the pedestal by it's base and put the mic right in front of MP's face.
Not surprised to hear this.
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One, can we give the "five years" thing a rest? It might have been said at the time, but there are too many interviews to link to that say "five years was a starting point, but ANY break would have worked". I just saw a video interview with Mike not a week ago where he reiterated that the length was totally and fully negotiable.
Thats totally false. "Indefinite hiatus" was the starting point. When pressed what that meant, Mike said five years. Then he began negotiating down.
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Agreed. Sorry, Stadler, but the five years thing is relevant to the discussion, so it should not be given a rest. Portnoy trying to downplay it in interviews since merely comes off as him trying to save face because the band called his bluff (I guarantee, deep down, he never thought they would go on without him).
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Agreed. Sorry, Stadler, but the five years thing is relevant to the discussion, so it should not be given a rest. Portnoy trying to downplay it in interviews since merely comes off as him trying to save face because the band called his bluff (I guarantee, deep down, he never thought they would go on without him).
I disagree a bit. I think he was so checked out with the potential of becoming A7X's permanent drummer that by the time he realized they would go on without him, he figured, "fuck it."
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the band called his bluff (I guarantee, deep down, he never thought they would go on without him).
They completely called his bluff. I've said that the whole time. And I'm sorry, but this band was relieved that MP was out of the picture.
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And I'm sorry, but this band was relieved that MP was out of the picture.
And rightfully so!
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The problem was imho that Mike was doing everything for DT, he worked the hardest, organized the most, was the most public figure, etc.
He was very aware of that and he was also always talking about that and making clear how he was the leader of the band and how he did everything, etc.
He was right that he actually was doing everything, but talking so much about that always results in bad feelings among the others.
So imho the problem was on both ends, JLB, JP, JM and JR were just leaving stuff to MP and enjoyed it that way, that was there fault.
And MP should not have bragged/talked so much about that, he's too much of a talker.
both ends are too blame. The part of DT that didn't stand up to do more and the part (=MP) that couldn't stop talking about how much he did.
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The problem was imho that Mike was doing everything for DT, he worked the hardest, organized the most, was the most public figure, etc.
He was very aware of that and he was also always talking about that and making clear how he was the leader of the band and how he did everything, etc.
He was right that he actually was doing everything, but talking so much about that always results in bad feelings among the others.
So imho the problem was on both ends, JLB, JP, JM and JR were just leaving stuff to MP and enjoyed it that way, that was there fault.
And MP should not have bragged/talked so much about that, he's too much of a talker.
both ends are too blame. The part of DT that didn't stand up to do more and the part (=MP) that couldn't stop talking about how much he did.
100% This!
Also while he was playing for A7X during an interview he did say he found it new and refreshing to just be the drummer. Maybe he got attracted to the less workload regime he was in and just because he was not sure whether this is what he wants he proposed a hiatus. But to hold the band hostage on this was too extreme IMO.
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Mike did that to himself though guys. He could himself loosened the load. Why play with A7X if you are getting burned? He was burnt on DT, not all the other side projects.
He did this to himself.
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Yeah, I know that.. I was just saying "five" years because that's longer than one or two, in which you might not have any change at all.. With five (and, as some have said before, this is all speculation) is likely that they would had a change, but then the problems and "stress" would've been back.. Because you don't change your personality in five-or even more-years.. You calm down the things a little, but if there's a major problem, you can't stop this from happening again and again.. And there was a major problem..
I disagree with you on that strenuously. Sometimes you need to see what the world CAN be like to know that the way the world IS is the right way to be. Look at Maiden, Priest, Kiss (in a sense), Sabbath, Yes, Aerosmith... all did one form or another of what Mike was talking about and all came back stronger and more of a cohesive unit than before.
Mike is, as much as anything, a student of music. And more than anyone in the band, except perhaps Jordan, he is plugged into other bands and sees how they work. I think you (collective, not you personally) are ascribing too much personal point of view to this and not giving fair shake to the way Mike might have seen it. I'm speculating, of course, but this is a guy that gives Beatle trivia from the stage during a concert. I think he's quite well aware that many of his most cherished bands have done what he asked and came back better than ever.
I think that, because he was the one "stressing" the band.. The thing on stage we'll never know if actually bothered or not the guys, but what did bother them, and this has also been said in interviews, was the rotating setlists.. Specially to JR, who had to reprogramme his keyboard everytime only because MP wanted to play songs in places they didn't have yet.. But also the others, who had to learn songs everytime and remember well the order, etc (and we're not precisely talking of easy songs, even when we know their abilities..)
But much has been said in this thread about this.. I'll only mention one more example, that even you have pointed out: MP thought there was a problem, because he realised they weren't friends, and that's why he thought there should've been a break.. But, as you said it, they don't have to be friends to be in a band, and to create songs.. In fact, they did BC&SL with that deteriorated relationship, and for me is one of their best albums.. So I agree about that, but then you should recognize that MP was wrong in that..
That's, anyway, only one of the reasons I think the problem was Portnoy.. Obviously, I know that sounds very simplistic on my part, but I think the arrival of MM and the good vibe of the band since then gives it even more sense..
I don't think he ever said ANYWHERE that the break was "because they weren't friends", and I don't recall seeing anywhere a "hatred" (my word) of the rotating setlists. Acknowledgement that it was hard, yes, and a tacit acceptance that it wasn't going to happen while they were breaking in a new drummer, yes, but not any rejection. He did note the "one member" (widely thought to be Myung) who was more content buried in his headphones than actually interacting, but that was put forth as a bad CHANGE, not a bad state of being. And I don't agree at all that "the problem was Portnoy". By your own logic, he has NONE of these issues with any of the other bands he is in, and he's a constant, so it MUST be the other guys. But that is false. You can't look at 40 variables, change one, and assume that it is solely and utterly because of that one variable. Honestly, and I don't mean this as a dig, but I think you have your conclusion and are fitting facts to the conclusion, not the other way around. There are too many holes for any of us to reach some of the conclusions that are being reached.
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Those last 2 Floyd albums we better than The Final Cut. Let's be honest, you are absolutely right that it takes two, but if I had another band member talking about replacing me as the singer, I've have problems with him. That should be private Stadler. I just think mike handled everything the wrong way. He leaves everything on his sleeve and sometime you need to handle things in house. I also think how the other 3 bandmates reacted by moving on quickly says that they we all frustrated by Mike.
I don't know the inner workings of them privately but how quick they moved on says a lot.
Whether it should be private or not is subjective (as is whether MLOR is better than TFC, which it absolutely is not. HAHA.), though my style would be to have that conversation one on one or in a band meeting behind closed doors. But, like the allegory of the scorpion and the turtle, we (including the band) know who Mike is, and how he operates. He is candid, and pulls no punches. Likely how he got to the pinnacle of his chosen craft, to be honest, and there are (almost though not quite literally) hundreds of musicians with whom he's worked that don't seem to have a problem with it.
As for the moving on, well, I don't think you can read much into that. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and it is just as likely that it was "I'm fucking pissed, fuck him and the drum stool he rode in on, leaving us this way!" and doing it as much out of spite as anything else. I get the very strong sense that as much as his demeanor is quiet and gentle, JP is NOT a man to be fucked with, and has a very high sense of discipline and drive. Add to that the familial situations (where several of the spouses were in a band together and understand how this business works as well as their husbands do) and I don't think the months following the break have anywhere near as much to do with the previous 20 years of MP as they do with the immediate circumstances they found themselves in.
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Agreed. Sorry, Stadler, but the five years thing is relevant to the discussion, so it should not be given a rest. Portnoy trying to downplay it in interviews since merely comes off as him trying to save face because the band called his bluff (I guarantee, deep down, he never thought they would go on without him).
Don't be sorry; we're (at least I am) having a friendly dialogue about an issue that means a lot to us, relatively speaking.
I think it is relevant to mention, but to give it so much emphasis, to make it be the "deal breaker", and to imply that JP, JR, and JLB would have accepted Mike's proposal if only it was just three years instead of five is just not accurate.
As for the relief, I don't know. Certainly JLB was, he said as much, if not literally then quite clearly by implication. But JR saying "he cried" when it all went down doesn't exactly ring endorsements for the "The King is Dead! Long live the King!" point of view here.
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Mike did that to himself though guys. He could himself loosened the load. Why play with A7X if you are getting burned? He was burnt on DT, not all the other side projects.
He did this to himself.
Haha, that's kind of funny. This is a guy that felt it necessary to write "Never Enough" based on fan reaction to his not being "perfect" for the fans. If he had stepped back, the fan base - or at least a vocal part of it - would have gone nuts. Granted, I think he still invited some of the burden, because there had to be a "first time", and that sets the standard that has to be met from that point forward, but I think there was a case of "no soft landing" on this issue. Hell, it's five years later and we're STILL talking about the relative merits of the rotating setlists and the lack of Ytsejam material.
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Stads he did mention in an interview that on the last tour with DT nobody spent time together. They didn't eat together, or hang
together and the realization hit him that he was having a far better time hanging out with all his other friends and musicians. He was
basically saying it just wasn't fun any more. Bottom line. It's like I said before, you can only pretend for so long even if you think it's
in the best interest of your fans. At some point you wake up and realize it's over. We all reach these 'life-is-short' moments at
some point in our lives and usually they bring major change.
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Mike did that to himself though guys. He could himself loosened the load. Why play with A7X if you are getting burned? He was burnt on DT, not all the other side projects.
He did this to himself.
Haha, that's kind of funny. This is a guy that felt it necessary to write "Never Enough" based on fan reaction to his not being "perfect" for the fans. If he had stepped back, the fan base - or at least a vocal part of it - would have gone nuts. Granted, I think he still invited some of the burden, because there had to be a "first time", and that sets the standard that has to be met from that point forward, but I think there was a case of "no soft landing" on this issue. Hell, it's five years later and we're STILL talking about the relative merits of the rotating setlists and the lack of Ytsejam material.
And I absolutely miss those no doubt. But I look at Mike like a person with ADD, he just can't stop. He has to be busy with everything and anything which lead to him being burnt on his first true love, DT. I hated seeing him leave but just from what I've read, it's obvious the other guys were slowly burning out on him too.
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Stads he did mention in an interview that on the last tour with DT nobody spent time together. They didn't eat together, or hang
together and the realization hit him that he was having a far better time hanging out with all his other friends and musicians. He was
basically saying it just wasn't fun any more. Bottom line. It's like I said before, you can only pretend for so long even if you think it's
in the best interest of your fans. At some point you wake up and realize it's over. We all reach these 'life-is-short' moments at
some point in our lives and usually they bring major change.
That's from where the 'younger wife' analogy came to be. He was hanging with Avenged Sevenfold, a group of young guys that love to party and he felt like he was right at home. Then, he left DT, and when Mangini joined the relationships between the members of the band became stronger than ever.
What does that tell us? We don't know what was going through MP's life back then, but I think him leaving DT was necessary for both the remaining members and him.
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...and when Mangini joined the relationships between the members of the band became stronger than ever.
How do we know this? I haven't seen one piece of information that corroborates that. Not arguing with you, but sincerely saying "I've not heard anything like that". Do we KNOW they're eating dinner together? Do we KNOW Myung isn't buried in his headphones? Maybe they just tolerate the spaces more.
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...and when Mangini joined the relationships between the members of the band became stronger than ever.
How do we know this? I haven't seen one piece of information that corroborates that. Not arguing with you, but sincerely saying "I've not heard anything like that". Do we KNOW they're eating dinner together? Do we KNOW Myung isn't buried in his headphones? Maybe they just tolerate the spaces more.
At least 10 or 15 interviews I've seen or read, so that's pretty commonplace information in DT land I'd say. They say they're very happy, and it shows.
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Mike did that to himself though guys. He could himself loosened the load. Why play with A7X if you are getting burned? He was burnt on DT, not all the other side projects.
He did this to himself.
Haha, that's kind of funny. This is a guy that felt it necessary to write "Never Enough" based on fan reaction to his not being "perfect" for the fans. If he had stepped back, the fan base - or at least a vocal part of it - would have gone nuts. Granted, I think he still invited some of the burden, because there had to be a "first time", and that sets the standard that has to be met from that point forward, but I think there was a case of "no soft landing" on this issue. Hell, it's five years later and we're STILL talking about the relative merits of the rotating setlists and the lack of Ytsejam material.
And I absolutely miss those no doubt. But I look at Mike like a person with ADD, he just can't stop. He has to be busy with everything and anything which lead to him being burnt on his first true love, DT. I hated seeing him leave but just from what I've read, it's obvious the other guys were slowly burning out on him too.
That's the thing - had he loosened the load, it's obvious no one was gonna take up the slack, which is why he continued to do it for as long as he did.
As for the other guys burning out on him, I don't necessarily think that's true. As was pointed out, JR admitted to crying after it all came crashing down. And since none of the other guys got anywhere near as involved in all the behind the scenes stuff as MP did, I doubt they were burned out on him. Perhaps for having to learn more than 1 show's worth of material, but I doubt there was much more.
That's from where the 'younger wife' analogy came to be. He was hanging with Avenged Sevenfold, a group of young guys that love to party and he felt like he was right at home. Then, he left DT, and when Mangini joined the relationships between the members of the band became stronger than ever.
What does that tell us? We don't know what was going through MP's life back then, but I think him leaving DT was necessary for both the remaining members and him.
Correction - it really started when he was doing the HAIL! shows and Transatlantic, and continued when he toured with A7X. As Stads mentioned, it was largely because he was having fun and enjoying being with the other guys. I doubt his personal life had anything to do with it - thanks to his awesome and very supportive wife, he's had a pretty grounded family life, even if he's almost constantly globe-trotting. That said, did he need a break from the other guys? It does seem to be so. But did it mean that he needed to quit the band? No.
...and when Mangini joined the relationships between the members of the band became stronger than ever.
How do we know this? I haven't seen one piece of information that corroborates that. Not arguing with you, but sincerely saying "I've not heard anything like that". Do we KNOW they're eating dinner together? Do we KNOW Myung isn't buried in his headphones? Maybe they just tolerate the spaces more.
At least 10 or 15 interviews I've seen or read, so that's pretty commonplace information in DT land I'd say. They say they're very happy, and it shows.
I know I've seen some similar statements, and to a degree, I agree with it. When MP left, they felt it absolutely to prove that they could go on without him and it forced them to bond and strengthen the relationships between them, because if they didn't, chances are the band wouldn't have continued.
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I don't think he ever said ANYWHERE that the break was "because they weren't friends", and I don't recall seeing anywhere a "hatred" (my word) of the rotating setlists.
I'm quoting them, so that you and we can all read what they (MP and JR in this case) have said about these things:
MP: "There were two moments of clarity for me that happened before this went down that I knew maybe it was time for a break. One was I was out one night in New York with you guys [referring to 'That Metal Show' hosts Eddie Trunk, Jim Florentine and Don Jamieson. Ed.]. I was out when FOZZY played. We were out, we went and saw [FOZZY singer Chris] Jericho, our good friend, and the AVENGED guys were there with us that night, and the ANTHRAX guys were there, and Vinnie Paul [PANTERA, HELLYEAH drummer] was there, we went out for dinner with Jericho and Bumblefoot [GUNS N' ROSES guitarist], the ZO2 guys I remember going for dinner with all these guys, you guys and Jericho and the ANTHRAX guys. I looked around and I said [to myself], 'None of the DREAM THEATER guys really know any of these people who are, like, my best friends.' " (Obviously implying DT guys were not his best friends, but only the rest of the guys he mentioned..)
https://goo.gl/RfOaVn
Interviewer: You guys are known for mixing it up. You don’t do the same set list every night?
JR: "Well, we have been playing more of a similar kind of set list these days than we used to do. When our last drummer (Mike Portnoy, who left Dream Theater in 2010) was in the band, he was really into changing it up a lot. And one of the things that happened when he left was that we decided that we don’t want to continue along that particular path, because we felt like it was really important to us to have a show that was really dialed in and that we were really proud of and that we knew what was going to happen from moment to moment. So we went with the idea of, let’s just pick a set and maybe make some small alterations to it occasionally but in general keep it the same so our lighting and video people, our crew, we all know what’s going to happen and it can be more like a Broadway show where you feel like you’re watching something that’s really well-constructed and the cues all happen precisely. In the old days it was more like, “OK, let’s see, do I remember, tonight am I fading out of this one and starting this one and is the light going to be on or off and what is going to happen?´"
https://goo.gl/PfPrUr
"So after everyone was done listing the songs they wanted to play then we went through a process of purring it together in a good, cohesive setlist. Of course that was one of the things that Mike Portnoy did very well and took care of and we definitely miss that. It’s not impossible to do, but it’s also kind of a pain. But anyway, we had a good time doing it and it’s one of the reasons we’re so happy, we’re playing the songs we really want to play."
https://www.dprp.net/wp/interviews/?page_id=582
[date: 11/29/2010] "And I've really got no problem with him doing what he's doing with Avenged Sevenfold. I think it's pretty cool going out and playing with a really successful rock group. I just have a little bit of a problem with him thinking that he could control Dream Theater. It's like a captain who is trying to command his ship when he's not even standing on the ship. And all the other guys are just sitting there , cruising along with a guy saying, 'The captain has left the ship. Okay, boys, here's what we're going to do: You're going to take a break.' And they're, like, 'But wait a minute, we're standing on the ship.' "
https://goo.gl/dRkY0g
The one that I couldn't find was the interview in which I read JR complaining about the rotating setlist, and how he had to handle with it every show and spending a lot of time just programming his keyboards.. So there is evidence (their opinions) for what we're saying here.. Is not just our personals "conclusions"..
And I don't agree at all that "the problem was Portnoy". By your own logic, he has NONE of these issues with any of the other bands he is in, and he's a constant, so it MUST be the other guys. But that is false. You can't look at 40 variables, change one, and assume that it is solely and utterly because of that one variable.
If you're talking to me, then you're wrong again.. I don't think that, never said that.. I never even said: "Portnoy had to go".. I'd liked him to stay, but, and here's where the thing become complex (to me at least), now that he's not in the band, they seem to be happier, and doing what they really want to do.. And I'm not the one saying this: they have said it (not only JR, but also JLB, and I'm pretty sure the Johns feel the same about it)..
And there's that video in which JP reads to MM the Urban Dictionary's new word "manginied", that I couldn't find either, but there they're eating dinner together.. Anyway, we don't know if they do that often, or just to film it, but we DO know how Portnoy felt about that when he was in the band.. I quoted him; that was his point of view, not mine or anyone else's..
PS: sorry for the long post but I think it's worth it..
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Scotty, if only Mike pulled back on taking on so much. Us fans should have dealt with that. His mental well being is more important to me as a fan then a bonus disk or bootlegs. Those are perks that, we as fans, should never expect but cherish.
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But what could Mike pull back from that we could deal with not having?
If he could have relaxed with Ytse Jam releases, rotating setlists, and doing fan oriented things, then I think we all as humans while missing those elements would have agreed to drop them if it meant Mike's well being personally and within DT. However, like Scotty said, I think it is MP's nature to want to take on those responsibilities anyway (hence why he did them in the first place and not anyone else) so I am not even sure if there was a way to make that compromise.
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Come on man. Read my earlier posts video said what you said. But I wish as a fan he pulled back a bit for DT's sake.
Now that he's also over the place, I'm all for his many bands and compulsive behavior. Lol
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Scotty, if only Mike pulled back on taking on so much. Us fans should have dealt with that. His mental well being is more important to me as a fan then a bonus disk or bootlegs. Those are perks that, we as fans, should never expect but cherish.
Let's be honest - the bootlegs are a piece of cake. The man has an amazing memory and could probably produce a list of 100 shows and other bootlegs that he would put out with Ytsejam Records. That's not a problem. The setlists are something that I believe he really found joy in piecing together, even if he sometimes stayed up late into the night trying to figure out what setlist should be for what city.
I think it's a lot of the other things that the other guys could've gotten involved in that would be more hum-drum - the light show, the video show, the interviews, the OK'ing of artwork for T-shirts and other memorabilia, probably a lot of the behind-the-scenes stuff that the band needs to be a part of in arranging for the writing/recording of an album and doing a supporting tour.
Then again, who knows how much power MP would've been willing to relinquish to others, for fear that they wouldn't do as good a job, assuming the other guys were willing to take on some additional tasks. Certainly I don't think any of the other guys are as concerned about the minute details like MP would, which would explain why the ADToE tour T-shirt I have has "Morristown, N" instead of "Morristown, NJ" - something that MP would've caught and corrected before it ever made it to print (and I say this having put together 3 tourbooks with him as well as the original tourography).
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Haha, that's kind of funny. This is a guy that felt it necessary to write "Never Enough" based on fan reaction to his not being "perfect" for the fans. If he had stepped back, the fan base - or at least a vocal part of it - would have gone nuts. Granted, I think he still invited some of the burden, because there had to be a "first time", and that sets the standard that has to be met from that point forward, but I think there was a case of "no soft landing" on this issue. Hell, it's five years later and we're STILL talking about the relative merits of the rotating setlists and the lack of Ytsejam material.
Pfft, that's only because a small minority of you won't let it go and bring it up at every opportunity. DT could do 99 of the 100 things Portnoy used to do, and a few of you would still say, "Yeah, but where are the ytsejam releases?" :\ :\
Best to just enjoy the band for what they are now, instead of lamenting that they are no longer what they used to be. It's make it a lot more fun to be a fan. :coolio :hat
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Haha, that's kind of funny. This is a guy that felt it necessary to write "Never Enough" based on fan reaction to his not being "perfect" for the fans. If he had stepped back, the fan base - or at least a vocal part of it - would have gone nuts. Granted, I think he still invited some of the burden, because there had to be a "first time", and that sets the standard that has to be met from that point forward, but I think there was a case of "no soft landing" on this issue. Hell, it's five years later and we're STILL talking about the relative merits of the rotating setlists and the lack of Ytsejam material.
Pfft, that's only because a small minority of you won't let it go and bring it up at every opportunity. DT could do 99 of the 100 things Portnoy used to do, and a few of you would still say, "Yeah, but where are the ytsejam releases?" :\ :\
Best to just enjoy the band for what they are now, instead of lamenting that they are no longer what they used to be. It's make it a lot more fun to be a fan. :coolio :hat
For you, and if that works for you, fantastic. I (seriously) couldn't be happier for you.
But I've said here and at Mike's site many many times: there was a time, from about 1994 through about 2010, where DT was special. One of maybe two or three bands that were a cut above. I have every single. Every fan club release. Every Ytsejam title. Would go to multiple shows. And felt like part of the gang, like part of something special. It was (almost) icing on the cake that there wasn't a song in the catalogue - with one exception - that I wouldn't at least like if not love. Now, well, they are certainly good, I've bought both albums since (and Luna Park, but not the new live one) but they are one of many bands I listen to and follow now. Still very good (I'm not 100% sure I'm a first day buyer of this new one; we'll see) but not [Charlton Heston voice] SPECIAL [back to normal voice].
It is what it is. I've been in bands; I can play almost anything with unlimited time to learn it and the luxury of playing it every night for 100 nights. I could never in a million frickin' years do what Mike (and the rest of the band did) and that is pull any song out of the discography at any given time. And I think back to what for me are the most memorable moments of the 400-some-odd concerts I've been lucky enough to see in my life, and NOT ONE OF THEM (with one exception) is because the "lighting cue was just spot fucking on from the band". The exception being "Woman From Tokyo" on the Purpendicular Tour; the band played the bridge, it was beautiful, and there was just a heartbeat of silence, and Roger, Steve, and Ian hit the riff as perfectly as three humans ever could and it went from dead silence to jet engine in a flash of a second.
Look; this isn't a contest. You guys are into it, then enjoy it for all it's worth. You should; music is for pleasure above all else. I'm sorry, I've got other music and bands and approaches that I like better at this point, and a large part of that change is the removal of MP from the equation.
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I don't think he ever said ANYWHERE that the break was "because they weren't friends", and I don't recall seeing anywhere a "hatred" (my word) of the rotating setlists.
I'm quoting them, so that you and we can all read what they (MP and JR in this case) have said about these things:
MP: "There were two moments of clarity for me that happened before this went down that I knew maybe it was time for a break. One was I was out one night in New York with you guys [referring to 'That Metal Show' hosts Eddie Trunk, Jim Florentine and Don Jamieson. Ed.]. I was out when FOZZY played. We were out, we went and saw [FOZZY singer Chris] Jericho, our good friend, and the AVENGED guys were there with us that night, and the ANTHRAX guys were there, and Vinnie Paul [PANTERA, HELLYEAH drummer] was there, we went out for dinner with Jericho and Bumblefoot [GUNS N' ROSES guitarist], the ZO2 guys I remember going for dinner with all these guys, you guys and Jericho and the ANTHRAX guys. I looked around and I said [to myself], 'None of the DREAM THEATER guys really know any of these people who are, like, my best friends.' " (Obviously implying DT guys were not his best friends, but only the rest of the guys he mentioned..)
https://goo.gl/RfOaVn
Interviewer: You guys are known for mixing it up. You don’t do the same set list every night?
JR: "Well, we have been playing more of a similar kind of set list these days than we used to do. When our last drummer (Mike Portnoy, who left Dream Theater in 2010) was in the band, he was really into changing it up a lot. And one of the things that happened when he left was that we decided that we don’t want to continue along that particular path, because we felt like it was really important to us to have a show that was really dialed in and that we were really proud of and that we knew what was going to happen from moment to moment. So we went with the idea of, let’s just pick a set and maybe make some small alterations to it occasionally but in general keep it the same so our lighting and video people, our crew, we all know what’s going to happen and it can be more like a Broadway show where you feel like you’re watching something that’s really well-constructed and the cues all happen precisely. In the old days it was more like, “OK, let’s see, do I remember, tonight am I fading out of this one and starting this one and is the light going to be on or off and what is going to happen?´"
https://goo.gl/PfPrUr
"So after everyone was done listing the songs they wanted to play then we went through a process of purring it together in a good, cohesive setlist. Of course that was one of the things that Mike Portnoy did very well and took care of and we definitely miss that. It’s not impossible to do, but it’s also kind of a pain. But anyway, we had a good time doing it and it’s one of the reasons we’re so happy, we’re playing the songs we really want to play."
https://www.dprp.net/wp/interviews/?page_id=582
[date: 11/29/2010] "And I've really got no problem with him doing what he's doing with Avenged Sevenfold. I think it's pretty cool going out and playing with a really successful rock group. I just have a little bit of a problem with him thinking that he could control Dream Theater. It's like a captain who is trying to command his ship when he's not even standing on the ship. And all the other guys are just sitting there , cruising along with a guy saying, 'The captain has left the ship. Okay, boys, here's what we're going to do: You're going to take a break.' And they're, like, 'But wait a minute, we're standing on the ship.' "
https://goo.gl/dRkY0g
The one that I couldn't find was the interview in which I read JR complaining about the rotating setlist, and how he had to handle with it every show and spending a lot of time just programming his keyboards.. So there is evidence (their opinions) for what we're saying here.. Is not just our personals "conclusions"..
And I don't agree at all that "the problem was Portnoy". By your own logic, he has NONE of these issues with any of the other bands he is in, and he's a constant, so it MUST be the other guys. But that is false. You can't look at 40 variables, change one, and assume that it is solely and utterly because of that one variable.
If you're talking to me, then you're wrong again.. I don't think that, never said that.. I never even said: "Portnoy had to go".. I'd liked him to stay, but, and here's where the thing become complex (to me at least), now that he's not in the band, they seem to be happier, and doing what they really want to do.. And I'm not the one saying this: they have said it (not only JR, but also JLB, and I'm pretty sure the Johns feel the same about it)..
And there's that video in which JP reads to MM the Urban Dictionary's new word "manginied", that I couldn't find either, but there they're eating dinner together.. Anyway, we don't know if they do that often, or just to film it, but we DO know how Portnoy felt about that when he was in the band.. I quoted him; that was his point of view, not mine or anyone else's..
PS: sorry for the long post but I think it's worth it..
Good research, but I stand unconvinced. You're picking the parts that might or might not work for your argument (the Portnoy quote), and what do work for your argument (the bolded stuff), but conveniently ignoring those that don't (JR: "Of course [a rotating setlist] was one of the things that Mike Portnoy did very well and took care of and we definitely miss that.")
Look, as I said to KevSchmev, it's not a contest; if you like it better, more power to you. The things I held dear, and the things that were important to me, are not there anymore. It's still good, occasionally great ("This Is The Life", "The Looking Glass") but it lost something for me. I'm still (for the most part) buying the records, but I don't hang on every drum beat anymore (at least not on the DT records) and that's just the way it is.
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Sometimes you need to see what the world CAN be like to know that the way the world IS is the right way to be. Look at Maiden, Priest, Kiss (in a sense), Sabbath, Yes, Aerosmith... all did one form or another of what Mike was talking about and all came back stronger and more of a cohesive unit than before.
Mike is, as much as anything, a student of music. And more than anyone in the band, except perhaps Jordan, he is plugged into other bands and sees how they work. I think you (collective, not you personally) are ascribing too much personal point of view to this and not giving fair shake to the way Mike might have seen it. I'm speculating, of course, but this is a guy that gives Beatle trivia from the stage during a concert. I think he's quite well aware that many of his most cherished bands have done what he asked and came back better than ever.
The big difference is the "level" fo bands. Groups that are huge in their field, or larger than life (like all of those you mentioned), sure, they can take breaks, hiatuses, or even break up, and then come back years later and be fine.
DT is nowhere near that level of fame, notoriety, or perpetual income. I think an expectation that they would just take 5 years off and be OK just because KISS could do it is unreasonable.
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The big difference is the "level" fo bands. Groups that are huge in their field, or larger than life (like all of those you mentioned), sure, they can take breaks, hiatuses, or even break up, and then come back years later and be fine.
DT is nowhere near that level of fame, notoriety, or perpetual income. I think an expectation that they would just take 5 years off and be OK just because KISS could do it is unreasonable.
Agreed - 5 years would be too much to ask. But that was a starting point, and even when a 1 year hiatus was requested, that was shut down. Taking a year off would not have been a bad thing, and I doubt any of the guys would've felt that much of a financial pinch - the band has a collective pot of money that they each receive regular payments from (as opposed to huge payouts during tour-time, and nothing during the breaks inbetween). During that time, they could've all done their various solo projects and then came back more ready to go than before.
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[Taking a year off would not have been a bad thing... They could've all done their various solo projects and then came back more ready to go than before.
Except only one guy wanted to do that, the other four didn't.
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[Taking a year off would not have been a bad thing... They could've all done their various solo projects and then came back more ready to go than before.
Except only one guy wanted to do that, the other four didn't.
That, and the fact that they don't ALL do various other solo projects.
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Yeah, I agree with Cool Chris and Hef..
Good research, but I stand unconvinced. You're picking the parts that might or might not work for your argument (the Portnoy quote), and what do work for your argument (the bolded stuff), but conveniently ignoring those that don't (JR: "Of course [a rotating setlist] was one of the things that Mike Portnoy did very well and took care of and we definitely miss that.")
Look, as I said to KevSchmev, it's not a contest; if you like it better, more power to you. The things I held dear, and the things that were important to me, are not there anymore. It's still good, occasionally great ("This Is The Life", "The Looking Glass") but it lost something for me. I'm still (for the most part) buying the records, but I don't hang on every drum beat anymore (at least not on the DT records) and that's just the way it is.
But the point of those quotes was not to give ME more reason about my personal taste (actually, as I said before, I also agree that they have lost that "something", -that someone- they used to have, and I don't like their two albums without MP as much as the previous ones).. The quotes I copied were only to give an idea of their thinking about the reasons why MP wanted the hiatus, and the reasons why the band was ok with him leaving, or pushing his departure, or with whatever has truly happened.
I don't ignore anything I quoted.. That's why I quoted.. I could have removed it, but instead I bolded the parts which I think are his main thoughts, his conclusion.. He clearly uses the "Of course... (...) But anyway..." grammatical structure, giving more importance to the latter words..
But yeah, this isn't a competition, is just a friendly discussion as you said earlier..
In fact we both agree in which was their best era, even though I always say it was, more precisely, between 1999 and 2009..
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Look at the 2 albums released since his leave: A Dramatic Turn of Events and Dream Theater. Maybe not the worst work that they've ever done, but I think there's a wide consensus that these two albums are average at best.
Not sure why you think this. ???
I thought ADTOE was one of the favorites among many, and DT12 has very mixed opinions, but never thought people believed them to both be 'average at best' to the majority.
Not that it's a totally representative sample (but it's at least more representative than just a few forum posters' opinions), but ADTOE is the highest ranked DT album since 6DOIT on prog rock archives.
Now, individual people can surely disagree, but the consensus seems to be that this was their best album in a long time, and that's a sentiment I agree with. DT12 has more middling ratings, though.
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That's obviously a prog leaning site, so of course they'll favour that album over the others which are more metal. If you look at ratings across the internet in general, there's really not much separating the last four albums. ADTOE usually ranks a hair better on average, and DT12 generally worst, but there's not much in it.
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That, and the fact that they don't ALL do various other solo projects.
Hmmm....
MP = host of projects/bands
JP = solo albums/clinics
JR = solo albums/apps/various instruments/clinics
JL = Mullmuzzler/solo albums
JM = Platypus/Jelly Jam
Am I missing something?
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Well of all of those I am pretty sure the only ones besides MP that are really busy are JR and maybe JLB.
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That, and the fact that they don't ALL do various other solo projects.
Hmmm....
MP = host of projects/bands
JP = solo albums/clinics
JR = solo albums/apps/various instruments/clinics
JL = Mullmuzzler/solo albums
JM = Platypus/Jelly Jam
Am I missing something?
But the big difference is the quantity.. These are the albums in which each member participated from 2000 to 2010, to have a reference (of course I might not have the exact numbers, but is pretty much like this):
JP: 3
JLB: 3
JR: 9
JM: 5
MP: 20
And the amount of projects:
JP: 3
JLB: 1
JR: 4
JM: 2
MP: 13
Sooo...
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Am I missing something?
Other than realizing the other 4 guys didn't want to take a break, not much I would say :p
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That, and the fact that they don't ALL do various other solo projects.
Hmmm....
MP = host of projects/bands
JP = solo albums/clinics
JR = solo albums/apps/various instruments/clinics
JL = Mullmuzzler/solo albums
JM = Platypus/Jelly Jam
Am I missing something?
JLB and JR definitely keep busy with side projects.
JP does a clinic once in a blue moon, but only the one solo album. So no output making money outside DT.
JM does even less. Yeah, he crawls out to record a project like Platypus or Jelly Jam once a decade or so, but otherwise, no money outside DT.
So you're missing their income, which generally depends on the DT machine.
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That, and the fact that they don't ALL do various other solo projects.
Hmmm....
MP = host of projects/bands
JP = solo albums/clinics
JR = solo albums/apps/various instruments/clinics
JL = Mullmuzzler/solo albums
JM = Platypus/Jelly Jam
Am I missing something?
JLB and JR definitely keep busy with side projects.
I don't know if JLB recording a solo album once every 3-5 years can be considered "busy"
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Let's also keep in mind this is all on top of DT's already packed schedule of recording an album and touring every couple of years, plus spending time with their families in the moments in between. That's a full time job already. I don't know where they even find time to sneeze, let alone squeeze in side projects. :lol
It was/is probably somewhat easier for MP to do more side projects as a drummer, because you can arguably lay down the drum tracks quicker than you can write/record an album of music and record multiple rhythm and solo tracks etc, which I think would account for some of the difference in quantity (plus obviously the desire to do so, which is consistent with his personality).
The point is with even a short break of a few months, they actually could have done more on these side projects (or just had more family time or whatever). We've been waiting a decade now for a follow up to Suspended Animation! Come on JP, the last one kicked ass!
The rest of the band collectively didn't need or want a break though, and the rest is history; there's nothing to gain by dwelling on hypotheticals now. We're about to get the 3rd new DT album since the split, and MP has had time for countless albums and projects. I'd rather dwell on that.
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The third album after MP is going to be astonishing...
They must have put a ton of work into this. I deginitely prefer that the band put their energy into the music and concept than into communicating with fans.
I think they must have started planning this at least on the Adtoe tour. But for us fans this really came as a surprise.... I love it.
Don't think we would have got this if MP had got his wanted hiatus.
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The third album after MP is going to be astonishing...
They must have put a ton of work into this. I deginitely prefer that the band put their energy into the music and concept than into communicating with fans.
I think they must have started planning this at least on the Adtoe tour. But for us fans this really came as a surprise.... I love it.
Don't think we would have got this if MP had got his wanted hiatus.
Putting energy into the music, and communicating with fans are not mutually exclusive goals in any way.MP has said they were planning to do another concept album before he left, so we probably would have gotten a concept album by now either way.
On top of that, we still haven't heard a single thing from the new album yet. ;)
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The third album after MP is going to be astonishing...
They must have put a ton of work into this. I deginitely prefer that the band put their energy into the music and concept than into communicating with fans.
I think they must have started planning this at least on the Adtoe tour. But for us fans this really came as a surprise.... I love it.
Don't think we would have got this if MP had got his wanted hiatus.
I'm not trying to be harsh, but just curious; is there one fact that points to ANY of that? Well, except for the first one, since we KNOW it will be "astonishing", because it is called "The Astonishing".
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I thought Portnoy was right....in that (IMO) BC&SL was by far their worst album and the band hadn't done anything innovative or new in years. I thought a hiatus would have been good as they had been covering well-trodden ground for a while.
Five years later....I'm not sure it would have helped. I don't see Portnoy's efforts demonstrating a lot of new ideas. I think the band itself stilff suffers from the lack of new ideas. I don't know about others but ADTOE seems a straight rework of I&Ws and DT12 is, yet again, retreading the same areas the band has covered for years.
That's just my opinion; I'm sure others differ. What is missing, in any of this, is a real effort to try something new. You look at Steven Wilson and what he's done over the last 5+ years and you see an artist growing and exploring; I just don't see that with DT.
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Would you say that Mike lead them to that style of music on SC & BC&SL?
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Would you say that Mike lead them to that style of music on SC & BC&SL?
Yes I think Mike was very instrumental on the making of the later albums he did with DT. It was not enough of a group effort.
I think Adtoe and DT12 are both way better than SC and BC&SL and hope that the Astonishing is going to be even better.
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I agree a 100%, I thought we were all on board about that.
I feel like after Octavarium Portnoy had had his fill of what Dream Theater does, it might have subconsciously been his grand epic closure to DT. Then from this point on he was in overdrive, he wanted to put his new musical interests in DT just to keep himself excited and interested in DT and that wasn't really so bad cause it resulted in SC and BC&SL which I like, but are very structurally similar to each other and it made things obvious to me that Portnoy was done when he got interviewed for BC&SL release and instead of being hyped over it like he does with every album when asked about how special it was; he would just say "It's just the next album".
I have not read through all pages of this thread but to answer the main thread question: Portnoy was that right that he needed a hiatus, DT didn't need one and they've made two high quality albums since then that proves it. ADToE and DTDT are definitely better than SC & BC&SL IMO.
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5 years later, was Portnoy right?
Hell no! :metal
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I agree a 100%, I thought we were all on board about that.
We are not.
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The third album after MP is going to be astonishing...
They must have put a ton of work into this. I deginitely prefer that the band put their energy into the music and concept than into communicating with fans.
I think they must have started planning this at least on the Adtoe tour. But for us fans this really came as a surprise.... I love it.
Don't think we would have got this if MP had got his wanted hiatus.
I'm not trying to be harsh, but just curious; is there one fact that points to ANY of that? Well, except for the first one, since we KNOW it will be "astonishing", because it is called "The Astonishing".
Well... the fact that it is a double album concept where they have developed a story with characters, maps, events etc. And that they are planning to tell said story through full visuals on the tour seem to indicate that they have put more effort into this than any of the later albums with MP.
MP had/has a preference for writing/recording quickly in the studio.
I don't think that approach would have worked for creating something of this scale.
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I don't know, are we really 100 % sure Portnoy was behind all that's been accredited to him, e.g. the heaviness? I used to be too, but since I've heard LaBrie's solo career, I'm definitely less sure than before... I also think that JP's just as big a metalhead as Mike is/was, so I'm definitely not absolutely convinced SC and BC&SL wouldn't have sounded the same/very similar even without Mike - I'm more inclined to think it was simply something they had to get out of their system (and I'm glad they did, since SC is my favourite). The fact MP's been doing the "tough guy" vocals might have been simply that he was the most willing/comfortable with it to do that...
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I don't know, are we really 100 % sure Portnoy was behind all that's been accredited to him, e.g. the heaviness? I used to be too, but since I've heard LaBrie's solo career, I'm definitely less sure than before... I also think that JP's just as big a metalhead as Mike is/was, so I'm definitely not absolutely convinced SC and BC&SL wouldn't have sounded the same/very similar even without Mike - I'm more inclined to think it was simply something they had to get out of their system (and I'm glad they did, since SC is my favourite). The fact MP's been doing the "tough guy" vocals might have been simply that he was the most willing/comfortable with it to do that...
We're definitely not sure about it, but personally the telling clues for me are
1. The fact that almost every time DT tackled a heavier style in a way that's not fitting them at all, it was almost always accompanied by cheesy backing vocals by MP.
2. Adding to the first reason, there was this whole apologetic post by MP on his forum back when BCSL came out, explaining that he thought the original way JLB sang the (what later became) growling section was awkward, then he tried all sorts of combinations and growling styles before settling on the final cut.
3. MP was the most vocal person to talk (in general, but particularly about) about their "inspiration corner"
4. The immediate bands he went on to when contemplating to and actually quitting DT were A7X and Adrenaline Mob, both kinda reminiscent of SC and BCSL's awkward moments (to me at least).
5. The awkward heaviness was completely gone the very next album they released after he quit.
I'm sure that the other members are not just "sheeps" who blindly followed everything Portnoy said and that it wouldn't have happened if they didn't like it as well, but it really seems to me like he was the main force behind it. I may be wrong, of course.
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5. The awkward heaviness was completely gone the very next album they released after he quit.
I don't know exactly what you mean by awkward heaviness, but I would guess that Build Me Up Break Me Down would surely count?
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I don't know, are we really 100 % sure Portnoy was behind all that's been accredited to him, e.g. the heaviness? I used to be too, but since I've heard LaBrie's solo career, I'm definitely less sure than before... I also think that JP's just as big a metalhead as Mike is/was, so I'm definitely not absolutely convinced SC and BC&SL wouldn't have sounded the same/very similar even without Mike - I'm more inclined to think it was simply something they had to get out of their system (and I'm glad they did, since SC is my favourite). The fact MP's been doing the "tough guy" vocals might have been simply that he was the most willing/comfortable with it to do that...
Whoa, you must be new here. As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.
MP obviously held a gun to the entire band's head and forced them to write metal riffs until their fingers bled. He also bought JP his copy of Priest and detuned all of JP's guitars when he wasn't looking. The SC documentary footage was all faked to try and convince you they were complicit. JLB wasn't having the most fun he's ever had in the studio at all. He was fighting back tears at every single moment.
Welcome to DTF.
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Funny thing not to see any difference at all between one new guy and another with more than 30.000 posts in the forum regarding such a highly debated topic..
But, yeah, welcome to DTF.. And I'm saying it without the irony btw.. :tup
SC is my favourite
:metal
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Nah, I don't think Mike was right. Probably right that he needed a break, but this has been discussed ad nauseum.
What I will say however, is that since he left, ADTOE was fresh and a really solid little album, DT I personally really like (even though it doesn't appear too highly regarded around here), and whether The Astonshing is a success or not, they are definitely trying something new, which at least seems to imply that they have an abundance of ideas.
I liked Mike, but i've also enjoyed everything they've done post Mike too. But to each his own I guess..
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I don't know, are we really 100 % sure Portnoy was behind all that's been accredited to him, e.g. the heaviness? I used to be too, but since I've heard LaBrie's solo career, I'm definitely less sure than before... I also think that JP's just as big a metalhead as Mike is/was, so I'm definitely not absolutely convinced SC and BC&SL wouldn't have sounded the same/very similar even without Mike - I'm more inclined to think it was simply something they had to get out of their system (and I'm glad they did, since SC is my favourite). The fact MP's been doing the "tough guy" vocals might have been simply that he was the most willing/comfortable with it to do that...
Couldn't agree more. DTs always had that heavy element since the first album. Infact, the first album still has heavier moments than at least half of their discography. Not to mention, JP is the guitar player. It might come as a shock but JP writes and plays his own riffs, MPs input would have involved giving opinions about preferences but at the end of the day, JP wouldn't be writing heavy riffs if he didn't like it. Not to mention, The Enemy Inside might be one of the heaviest songs they've written since Honor Thy Father (imo).
MP obviously held a gun to the entire band's head and forced them to write metal riffs until their fingers bled. He also bought JP his copy of Priest and detuned all of JP's guitars when he wasn't looking. The SC documentary footage was all faked to try and convince you they were complicit. JLB wasn't having the most fun he's ever had in the studio at all. He was fighting back tears at every single moment.
:rollin
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JP started weightlifting in order to fight back Portnoy's abussive treatment.
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JP started weightlifting in order to fight back Portnoy's abussive treatment.
And In The Presence of Enemies is clearly about JP trying to fight Mike's supremacy.
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I will say this.
I was mildly curious what MP thought of ADTOE, but two years later I didn't really care what he thought of DT12. But now, with all this Ravenskill and NOMACS and Nefaryus (sp?) etc, etc... I've NEVER been more curious as to what he might be thinking about all of it.
I doubt we'll ever know.
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Going out of joke...
I think it must be pretty hard for him to hear his old band doing stuff without him. Throughout his life he was the very first person to know what was the next DT album going to be about, and now he's just one of us, someone waiting.
However, I'm also convinced that he's totally proud and happy with what he's doing, enough to be rather indifferent to DT at this point.
Going back...
Everytime he plays a song with any of his groups, he closes his eyes and pretends it's a new DT song, and JP is there, as well as JM, JR and JLB. After the song ends, he just comes back into reality.
At the end of shows, people usually see him wondering where did JP go.
His bandmates see him locked in his room, making setlists, pretending he's in control again.
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No Portnoy was not the only one behind the heaviness and I think DT should be heavy. As they have been from the start. But on the later albums there are parts that don't fit. The most glaring one is in ANTR.
Where I think Portnoy had a more instrumental role is in making DT only write music in the studio. I never heard anything about them writing music before entering the studio since at least ToT but the first tour without MP we got reports of them writing new music during the tour.
I think the later albums suffer because the band did not allowe time to work on the songs with "fresh ears". Writing something and then coming back to it again after some time has passed allows you to see things you missed the first time and to perfect the music.
I would much rather that they write and demo a lot of songs and then trim it down when they enter the studio than they go into the studio with a blank slate and the descision to fill a CD worth of music.
The probability of this happening is much bigger without MP I think. He takes his penchant for writing quickly in the studio with him to his current bands.
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I don't know, are we really 100 % sure Portnoy was behind all that's been accredited to him, e.g. the heaviness? I used to be too, but since I've heard LaBrie's solo career, I'm definitely less sure than before... I also think that JP's just as big a metalhead as Mike is/was, so I'm definitely not absolutely convinced SC and BC&SL wouldn't have sounded the same/very similar even without Mike - I'm more inclined to think it was simply something they had to get out of their system (and I'm glad they did, since SC is my favourite). The fact MP's been doing the "tough guy" vocals might have been simply that he was the most willing/comfortable with it to do that...
We're definitely not sure about it, but personally the telling clues for me are
1. The fact that almost every time DT tackled a heavier style in a way that's not fitting them at all, it was almost always accompanied by cheesy backing vocals by MP.
2. Adding to the first reason, there was this whole apologetic post by MP on his forum back when BCSL came out, explaining that he thought the original way JLB sang the (what later became) growling section was awkward, then he tried all sorts of combinations and growling styles before settling on the final cut.
3. MP was the most vocal person to talk (in general, but particularly about) about their "inspiration corner"
4. The immediate bands he went on to when contemplating to and actually quitting DT were A7X and Adrenaline Mob, both kinda reminiscent of SC and BCSL's awkward moments (to me at least).
5. The awkward heaviness was completely gone the very next album they released after he quit.
I'm sure that the other members are not just "sheeps" who blindly followed everything Portnoy said and that it wouldn't have happened if they didn't like it as well, but it really seems to me like he was the main force behind it. I may be wrong, of course.
1. Ignoring completely that almost every time DT tackled ANY style, it was almost always accompanied by cheesy backing vocals by MP. That's what he did (and that is not a knock; I always kind of liked the contrast with James' voice).
2. As I understand it, he tried many combinations, not limited to growling, yet that was what supported the music. Blame the music (which, I understand was largely written by Petrucci) if you are set on "blaming" anything.
3. You've already answered your own point: MP was the most vocal person to talk IN GENERAL.
4. This is revisionist history. He had already indicated his time with A7X was coming to an end before he officially quit DT, and he announced Flying Colors around the same time as announcing AMob. Plus, if you look at the first releases after leaving they are: AMob (EP), Neal Morse, Yellow Matter Custard, AMob (LP), Flying Colors, Morse-Portnoy-George, Neal Morse, Prog World Orchestra. Portnoy didn't solely focus on metal, though what he did was compartmentalize his offerings (which I do have a problem with). But there was a LOT of prog in that group. And if you look at the BC&SL covers - which Portnoy selected for the most part - there is a lot more prog than metal in there. Finally, Petrucci is the guy that almost always drops a Metallica riff or part in his solo spots, not Portnoy, so it's not really fair to point to MP as the "METAL PUSHER".
5. I don't completely disagree with the "awkward heaviness", but it is still there in the two non-MP albums, I think it just comes out differently. Those two albums are so dense with guitar, they barely breathe, and that is more Petrucci than MP (well, ALL Petrucci, since MP isn't on those albums). I think it is a manifestation of the same idea.
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Throughout his life he was the very first person to know what was the next DT album going to be about
One of the things that surely bothered the other members.. He wanted to take control about everything.. That's not how you do things when you're in a band.. Fortunately, he couldn't take control over the composition.. I'm not sure if I would ever like so much DT's music if that would have happened.. :|
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I doubt that ever bothered anyone.
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Throughout his life he was the very first person to know what was the next DT album going to be about
One of the things that surely bothered the other members.. He wanted to take control about everything.. That's not how you do things when you're in a band.. Fortunately, he couldn't take control over the composition.. I'm not sure if I would ever like so much DT's music if that would have happened.. :|
How can you say that? On what grounds?
As for "taking control", ask Charlie Watts if he minds that Mick is clearly the leader of the Stones? It apparently bugs Richards a little, but he keeps coming back for more, so... Gene and Paul are clearly in charge of Kiss. Tyler is apparently calling the shots in Aerosmith now. Steve Harris takes a back seat to no one in Maiden. Ric Ocasek calls the shots in the Cars. Jerry had final say (such that it was) in the Dead. Noel ran the show in Oasis, much to his brother's consternation.
I think the ideal of Rush, where no one takes a crap without all members in full agreement as to which stall to use, is an exception, not the rule.
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As for "taking control", ask Charlie Watts if he minds that Mick is clearly the leader of the Stones? It apparently bugs Richards a little, but he keeps coming back for more, so...
Didn't Charlie shine his shoes, dress in a full suit, walked down to Mick's room, and punch him the faced and told him: "I'm not your drummer, your my singer?"
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As for "taking control", ask Charlie Watts if he minds that Mick is clearly the leader of the Stones? It apparently bugs Richards a little, but he keeps coming back for more, so...
Didn't Charlie shine his shoes, dress in a full suit, walked down to Mick's room, and punch him the faced and told him: "I'm not your drummer, your my singer?"
So the story goes.
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4. This is revisionist history. He had already indicated his time with A7X was coming to an end before he officially quit DT,
C'mon dude, THAT is revisionist history. Mike did NOT indicate his time with A7X was coming to an end before he quit, in fact, he was hoping to continue. That has always been what the whole debate was about. Did he quit so he could join A7X full time or did he really just get tired of DT? Was it a combination? Would he still have quit if he didn't have A7X to fall back on even if he was upset about band dynamics?
Either way, he had signed on to drum with A7X until the end of 2010, hoping they would ask him to continue on later. He quit DT in September. Avenged officially parted ways with him in December.
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I wish he had continued, because A7X is literally in oblivion now.
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Really? I don't follow them but I just checked the numbers and Nightmare debuted at number 1 and their last one, Hail to the King debuted at number 1.
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Well yea, it's always been hard to pile A7X's popularity, because basically every album has a very different style (atleast that's how I perceive it), but HttK seems to be the fans least favorite, I think the band is in great shape nonetheless, not entirely sure what he meant by A7X being in oblivion.
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4. This is revisionist history. He had already indicated his time with A7X was coming to an end before he officially quit DT,
C'mon dude, THAT is revisionist history. Mike did NOT indicate his time with A7X was coming to an end before he quit, in fact, he was hoping to continue. That has always been what the whole debate was about. Did he quit so he could join A7X full time or did he really just get tired of DT? Was it a combination? Would he still have quit if he didn't have A7X to fall back on even if he was upset about band dynamics?
Either way, he had signed on to drum with A7X until the end of 2010, hoping they would ask him to continue on later. He quit DT in September. Avenged officially parted ways with him in December.
Madman is the correct one here. A7X even came out later and said that Portnoy told them he had quit DT and said, "I can be with you guys now," indicating he would stay on full time, and they were like, no, we don't want the drama or the rep as being the ones responsible for him having left DT. That is when Portnoy scrambled and tried to get back in DT.
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After all these years i find it funny this is still a subject matter. They (both sides) are doing just fine. MP has some great stuff out. And DT they are doing awesome. The last album with MP i really didnt care for it. It was getting stale. I think both made the right choice. But im looking forward to The Astonishing in a big way.
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4. This is revisionist history. He had already indicated his time with A7X was coming to an end before he officially quit DT,
C'mon dude, THAT is revisionist history. Mike did NOT indicate his time with A7X was coming to an end before he quit, in fact, he was hoping to continue. That has always been what the whole debate was about. Did he quit so he could join A7X full time or did he really just get tired of DT? Was it a combination? Would he still have quit if he didn't have A7X to fall back on even if he was upset about band dynamics?
Either way, he had signed on to drum with A7X until the end of 2010, hoping they would ask him to continue on later. He quit DT in September. Avenged officially parted ways with him in December.
What Mike may have wanted, and what was being discussed, and what was actually going to happen are two, uh, three, different things. There was a statement in late spring, early summer that said he was going to finish the tour and be done. Then in September he left DT. He played with A7X through December, but for everyone (except possibly MP, and I'm willing to give him the doubt that this was a late development that - as he has stated in interviews - was a spur of the moment thing given his new work status) knew well before that that it was a temporary fix. That he lobbied to get into A7X is without doubt true (all sides concede that) but the writing was on the wall.
I guess in the spirit of discussion, I allow that this is more grey than I painted it, but the reality is - in the context of the "metal discussion" - is that MP was not SOLELY the metal guy, and he can't be solely blamed/take sole credit for the "awkward metal" aspects of SC and BC&SL.
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How many DT fans were gained by Mike being the drummer for Avenged Sevenfold?
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How many DT fans were gained by Mike being the drummer for Avenged Sevenfold?
I would imagine some, and some the other way around as well. If you check the A7X thread's history, you know there were a lot on this board who went out and checked them out once they found out MP was drumming. As for DT gaining fans, harder to tell since I do not follow the A7X fan base, but I'd believe there have to be some.
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I do know A7X's fanbase skyrocketed after Nightmare, but I'm not sure how much that had to do with Mike Portnoy, on the other hand, when I started listening to DT, I had no idea Portnoy was their original drummer, so for me personally it didn't matter, but I can imagine some people gave DT a try after seeing Portnoy play with A7X.
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A7X and DT were my first two introductions to real metal stuff (a few years pre-MP, though), so I really don't think it would be that big a leap for A7X fans to get into DT if any sort of impetus to do so was provided. Anyone who appreciates City of Evil would probably also like ToT and SC, right off the bat.
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So, here's a thought I had.
Remember when Mike Portnoy told us all that under his watch, DT11 would be a concept album, and the DT11 tour would consist of the entire concept album in the first set and the entire 12SS in the second set?
I prefer this history to that alternate one. I pick The Astonishing over Conceptual DT11. I don't see that version of the band being so energized and excited about a concept as they apparently are now.
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It seems kinda pointless to me to try to compare something that exists to something that doesn't and never will (and given we haven't even heard TA with the exception of 4 whole minutes out of 120+)
But I'll take SFAM over both. ;)
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I mean, fair enough, although every page of this thread is comparing something that exists to something that doesn't and never will. And so is MP's comment about what his version of DT11 would be. :lol
But I'll take SFAM over both. ;)
Also true.
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I mean, fair enough, although every page of this thread is comparing something that exists to something that doesn't and never will. And so is MP's comment about what his version of DT11 would be. :lol
I don't think that was really a comparison though, just what was likely to happen under different circumstances. He wasn't dissecting and comparing a real album to a hypothetical one. :lol
I'm surprised we haven't already got a TA vs SFAM poll. You're letting me down, DTF! :neverusethis:
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I like, overall, a Dramatic turn of events, and I don't like the self titled album.
Nevertheless I really think Portnoy was kind of right, not because his creative input was necessary (it wasn't) or because I like the heavier way he alway pursued (I don't), but because you can't do this much music every two years and keep the quality and the freshness at the standards you have had.
I would like less album, more prog sound (instead of heavy metal riffs), and new sounds. I want from them something that blows my mind, and there is nothing so far that blows my mind since Portnoy left.
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I would like less album, more prog sound (instead of heavy metal riffs), and new sounds. I want from them something that blows my mind, and there is nothing so far that blows my mind since Portnoy left.
Good point. And I am tempted to feel the same. However (and this is a big one), nothing has blown me away ever since Octavarium, which means 3 albums with MP. I think they are long past their heyday and no album will be as good as their best ones (even if the notion of best is purely subjective), and that does not depend on who is behind the drum kit.
B.Lee
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I still think MP could have delegated responsibilities. Not sure why he felt that if he didn't do it, then it was going to be wrong. But JLB's and MP's relationship was definitely strained and here is where I think a break and sorting issues would have helped (not a 5 yr hiatus though).
Good points - honestly, I wish he would've delegated some of those responsibilities. The funny thing is, with the million different bands he's been involved with since then, he hasn't taken on a similar role in any of them. I wonder why - did he learn from his DT experience or is there another reason. Definitely something I hope to ask him next time I see him (which probably won't be for some time).
Exactly! I think he was burned out and lesson learned.
I don't know the answer to this which is why I'm asking. Has he kept up the pace keeping fans updated as much as he used to before he left? (To me it doesn't appear that he is, but I'm not on facebook or twitter so that may be the road it's all going down now.)
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I don't know the answer to this which is why I'm asking. Has he kept up the pace keeping fans updated as much as he used to before he left? (To me it doesn't appear that he is, but I'm not on facebook or twitter so that may be the road it's all going down now.)
Overall, I'd say yes, and yes most of it is on FB and Twitter. I don't have a Twitter account, but you can follow what he posts on it here:
https://www.mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/mptweets.aspx
Pretty sure everything he posts on Twitter he also posts on FB, altho he might include more info, given that FB doesn't have the text restrictions that Twitter does.