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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Anguyen92 on November 26, 2014, 01:13:29 PM
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Hey guys, I generally follow the billboard boxscore every week to see how touring acts do in their shows in terms of attendance and revenue.
This week, I've noticed Dream Theater is on it with some pretty interesting #s with their South America shows. For those that were at these shows, can you confirm that the attendance #s are true?
30 Dream Theater Espaco das Americas Sao Paulo, Brazil Oct. 4, 2014 $376,044 4,928 / 8,300 1 / 0 $160.37, $80.18 Mercury Concerts
34 Dream Theater Movistar Arena Santiago, Chile Sept. 24, 2014 $306,888 6,133 /10,000 1 / 0 $55 Mercury Concerts
36 Dream Theater Mandarine Park Buenos Aires, Argentina Sept. 26-27, 2014 $292,995 4,934 /14,000 2 / 0 $118.68, $59.34 Mercury Concerts
42 Dream Theater Chevrolet Hall Recife, Brazil Oct. 10, 2014 $198,449 3,589 /7,000 1 / 0 $150.92, $58.69 Mercury Concerts
44 Dream Theater Vivo Rio Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Oct. 5, 2014 $187,259 3,205 /3,652 1 / 0 $125.77, $60.85 Mercury Concerts
48 Dream Theater Siara Hall Fortaleza, Brazil Oct. 11, 2014 $159,241 2,449 /5,978 1 / 0 $183.42, $50.02 Mercury Concerts
54 Dream Theater Net Live Brasilia, Brazil Oct. 7, 2014 $121,757 1,898 /3,800 1 / 0 $243.44, $81.15 Mercury Concerts
58 Dream Theater Pepsi On Stage Porto Alegre, Brazil Sept. 30, 2014 $108,940 2,314 /5,300 1 / 0 $67.69, $36.92 Mercury Concerts
61 Dream Theater Master Hall Curitiba, Brazil Oct. 2, 2014 $100,831 1,492 /3,500 1 / 0 $146.64, $97.76 Mercury Concerts
https://pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/144887/billboard-boxscore-12-06-14
If it is true, I'm pretty surprised that DT did relatively not so well at Buenos Aires since the crowd size from what I've see in the Luna Park DVD looked pretty full and you think doing two shows at an outdoor venue (was it outdoors?) would bring better results.
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Yeah it was pretty weird because the venue was huge. But it was also new, and many people might have preferred Luna Park (it was reserved for an awful local band :facepalm: ). I was surprised not to see that much quantity of people, since the band seems to be fair popular here.
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Live DVDs don't really reflect general concert attendance. First of all, they announce the DVD beforehand so a lot of people want to be part of that, and at least in the case of BTFW, they kept the ticket price really low. I paid $65 for the ticket, which is a lot lower than what I used to pay for DT concerts in Boston.
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I don't know the real capacity of, for example, the Net Live, but in this video it doesen't seem like it's half empty.
And btw, lots of strange things in this video:
- how did someone manage to film from there?
- JR with headphones?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS_fulhesSQ
(of course they're not that strange, just, unusual)
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What video are you referring to?
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I was wondering wasn't in the list São Paulo (Brazil's biggest city) - turns out it is:
30 Dream Theater Espaco das Americas Sao Paulo, Brazil Oct. 4, 2014 $376,044 4,928 / 8,300 1 / 0 $160.37, $80.18 Mercury Concerts
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What video are you referring to?
Sorry, i've forgot to attach it on the post :) now it's there.
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Regarding the NET Live venue, it's impossible to judge, since you can only see the first few pillars. When you look at pictures of the venue, it extends very far into the back.
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I was wondering wasn't in the list São Paulo (Brazil's biggest city) - turns out it is:
30 Dream Theater Espaco das Americas Sao Paulo, Brazil Oct. 4, 2014 $376,044 4,928 / 8,300 1 / 0 $160.37, $80.18 Mercury Concerts
Whoop. That was my mistake. Probably looked over it.
I don't know the real capacity of, for example, the Net Live, but in this video it doesen't seem like it's half empty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS_fulhesSQ
I took a look at that crowd shot as well and it looked like the room is nearly filled, yet like you said, it does not reflect the boxscore that says only half of the capacity is filled. I'm so bad at gauging crowd sizes based on youtube videos though.
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This has nothing to do with judging skills. You simply can't see more than half the venue in that video, so by very definition you can't ever tell with certainty that it was more than half full.
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Very interesting. Those are numbers you'd expect in a typical US theater, but I always thought South America was some bastion of sustained interest in metal. Guess not.
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I don't think its a South-American thing. Look at the numbers for Kiss, Motley Crew and Alice Cooper. They still fill the 13k venues. My brother saw DT in Germany in the summer and he was also commenting on how empty the venue was.
Tour managers book venues based on previous demand. I think it just means DT12 saw lower interest than ADTOE.
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I think they still did good enough during the Along For the Ride Tour overall. Here were some results from their leg in the states.
60 Dream Theater Chicago Theatre Chicago, Ill. April 5, 2014 $148,223 3,153 / 3,553 1 / 0 $66, $56, $46, $26 Live Nation/MSG Entertainment
64 Dream Theater Warfield Theatre San Francisco, Calif. April 17, 2014 $109,991 2,149 / 2,374 1 / 0 $65, $49.50 Goldenvoice/AEG Live
https://pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/139762/billboard-boxscore-05-10-14
Granted, these were not sold out, but hey, playing in front of 2,000-3,000 people a show in the states is pretty good in this age.
The result of their show in Montreal is kinda interesting.
122 Dream Theater Bell Centre Montreal, Quebec March 21, 2014 $190,626 3,086 / 3,718 1 / 0 $70.66, $44 evenko
https://pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/139175/billboard-boxscore-04-12-14
When I think of the Bell Centre, I'm thinking that's where the Habs play and that they have 15k-20k people a night for their hockey games, and I thought DT would bring maybe about 10k people. Does the Bell Centre adjusts its venue to do theater-sized concerts as well in addition to arena-size?
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Seems like they filled on average about 40% (except for the Rio show which was close to being sold out). Those seem to be bad numbers. I wonder if the prices were a bit too high for the average fan.
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This has nothing to do with judging skills. You simply can't see more than half the venue in that video, so by very definition you can't ever tell with certainty that it was more than half full.
NetLive fb profile declared 3000 people attended the show.
p.s. and still, yes, the SA leg, and part of both the first and the second European leg, being those numbers true or not, have been a little disappointing in terms of attendance. But tbh that's the way they've always done except for the SC/Octavarium tours; and yes, saturation of their own market (to tour every two years in the same places) while being this the way they can make enough money to survive as a business, is starting to become a problem - also because tickets use to cost more and more every tour.
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Even in the states, I feel a bit over-saturated. I love seeing bands, but I'm not going to see the same band every two years unless they have some really great new material. That's just a bit too much. There are so many other shows to spend money on.
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122 Dream Theater Bell Centre Montreal, Quebec March 21, 2014 $190,626 3,086 / 3,718 1 / 0 $70.66, $44 evenko
https://pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/139175/billboard-boxscore-04-12-14
When I think of the Bell Centre, I'm thinking that's where the Habs play and that they have 15k-20k people a night for their hockey games, and I thought DT would bring maybe about 10k people. Does the Bell Centre adjusts its venue to do theater-sized concerts as well in addition to arena-size?
This is the Bell Centre gig. I guess we can safely say that those numbers are wrong. (yet it was clearly very far from being sold out)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amCW6c25h5k
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That's a good sized crowd, even if the stage is moved up a bit.
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Are the numbers wrong? The Billboard thing says that the venue was almost full, it's just that they shut off large parts of the venue, no?
EDIT: Comparing the video with the Bell Centre seating chart, Im not sure how far off the numbers are. There's three seating segments before it goes into the bend, which means they moved the stage all the way up to the center of the venue. And, of the different levels of the venue, only the lowest one is open. I think 3k sounds about right then.
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Are the numbers wrong? The Billboard thing says that the venue was almost full, it's just that they shut off large parts of the venue, no?
EDIT: Comparing the video with the Bell Centre seating chart, Im not sure how far off the numbers are. There's three seating segments before it goes into the bend, which means they moved the stage all the way up to the center of the venue. And, of the different levels of the venue, only the lowest one is open. I think 3k sounds about right then.
aaaaahhhh....
The Bell Centre has 6 configurations. ( https://www.centrebell.ca/en/page/venue_specifications)
Please, look at the difference between the Theatre and the Hemicicle configurations.
DT used the Theatre configuration, which can hold from 5,000 to 9,000 (in their case i think the capacity was 5,000 as the highest levels were closed).
So yes, those numbers, as it was the case with the NETlive, are wrong.
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No offense dude, but it looks a bit that you're trying to dismiss the numbers as hard as you can (maybe because the numbers make DT look bad). Billboard isn't exactly some podunk website; it's *the* site to report music sales.
Bell Centre likely has the ability to further shrink the venue (below 5k), based on ticket sales. So, they might leave off half the section that borders the PA, and if they see the demand, they open up those tickets and move the PA a few feet back (since they can move the stage freely).
Regarding the NET Live numbers, you must have missed the point that the Youtube video only shows the first 10 rows or so. You can't, for obvious reasons, extrapolate towards the whole venue based on the first 10 rows.
And lastly, people have also been reporting all summer that DT's attendance hasn't been that great.
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As much as it sucks to see the band struggling to fill venues, the revenue they're bringing in is still pretty good. I wonder how these numbers stack up with numbers from two or three tours ago?
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As much as it sucks to see the band struggling to fill venues, the revenue they're bringing in is still pretty good. I wonder how these numbers stack up with numbers from two or three tours ago?
I found some #s of another show they did at the Bell Centre in Montreal in 2009.
137 Dream Theater Bell Centre Montreal, Quebec Aug. 12, 2009 $194,231 3,571 / 4,460 1 / 0 $54.39 Gillett Entertainment Group/Greenland Productions/Live Nation
https://pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/88393
Here. The attendance is higher by about 500 people and they made $4k than they did, this year. Not that much of a difference between five years, I think.
For Chicago. Higher attendence, but $20k less revenue that they made, this year, than they did in 2009.
105 Dream Theater, Zappa Plays Zappa, Big Elf, Scale the Summit Chicago Theatre Chicago, Ill. Aug. 23, 2009 $168,578 2,729 / 3,321
1 /0 $72, $52, $42 Jam Productions
https://pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/88619
Lastly, they've made a lot of revenue and had a much higher attendence when they played Luna Park in 2010 than they did when they came to Argentina, this year, though I cannot find how they did in 2012 (although I think it may have went up due to the fact that those shows were for the DVD).
33 Dream Theater Luna Park Buenos Aires, Argentina March 13-14, 2010 $530,364 10,364 / 12,112 2 / 0 $124.32, $25.90 T4F-Time For Fun
https://pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/95810
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No offense dude, but it looks a bit that you're trying to dismiss the numbers as hard as you can (maybe because the numbers make DT look bad). Billboard isn't exactly some podunk website; it's *the* site to report music sales.
Bell Centre likely has the ability to further shrink the venue (below 5k), based on ticket sales. So, they might leave off half the section that borders the PA, and if they see the demand, they open up those tickets and move the PA a few feet back (since they can move the stage freely).
Regarding the NET Live numbers, you must have missed the point that the Youtube video only shows the first 10 rows or so. You can't, for obvious reasons, extrapolate towards the whole venue based on the first 10 rows.
And lastly, people have also been reporting all summer that DT's attendance hasn't been that great.
and still, yes, the SA leg, and part of both the first and the second European leg, being those numbers true or not, have been a little disappointing in terms of attendance
And that's what i've said. 'Cause yes, i do care if DT do well or not, but no, it's not a tragedy if they don't.
And again
I guess we can safely say that those numbers are wrong. (yet it was clearly very far from being sold out)
and those in the video from the Bell Centre are more than 3,718 seats, at least 1000k more. So yes, in this regard, those numbers are wrong. As they were those about the NETlive.
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You counted the Bell Centre seats from a YT video?
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You counted the Bell Centre seats from a YT video?
No, from its seating chart on its official website.
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I found some #s of another show they did at the Bell Centre in Montreal in 2009.
137 Dream Theater Bell Centre Montreal, Quebec Aug. 12, 2009 $194,231 3,571 / 4,460 1 / 0 $54.39 Gillett Entertainment Group/Greenland Productions/Live Nation
https://pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/88393
Here. The attendance is higher by about 500 people and they made $4k than they did, this year. Not that much of a difference between five years, I think.
For Chicago. Higher attendence, but $20k less revenue that they made, this year, than they did in 2009.
105 Dream Theater, Zappa Plays Zappa, Big Elf, Scale the Summit Chicago Theatre Chicago, Ill. Aug. 23, 2009 $168,578 2,729 / 3,321
1 /0 $72, $52, $42 Jam Productions
https://pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/88619
Lastly, they've made a lot of revenue and had a much higher attendence when they played Luna Park in 2010 than they did when they came to Argentina, this year, though I cannot find how they did in 2012 (although I think it may have went up due to the fact that those shows were for the DVD).
33 Dream Theater Luna Park Buenos Aires, Argentina March 13-14, 2010 $530,364 10,364 / 12,112 2 / 0 $124.32, $25.90 T4F-Time For Fun
https://pulsemusic.proboards.com/thread/95810
Interesting. So perhaps DT have raised their ticket prices or something, which is decreasing attendance but raising revenue?
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Well, that's the game ever company is in. Find the price that maximizes revenue.
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I was at that Bell Center show in 2009. The place seemed pretty packed.
Having been to quite a few shows at the Halifax Metro Center, which tends to have a capacity of about 3000-6000 in front-on concert setup, and having been to a few shows at the Bell Center, the crowd at DT's 2009 Bell Center show seemed noticeably bigger than a typical Metro Center crowd, though smaller than the crowd when I saw Iron Maiden at the Bell Center in 2012. I'd be surprised if the actual figure wasn't around 5000 or so.
I haven't seen them on recent tours, so I can't comment on those. If their numbers are down, that's a bummer.
I know Billboard is literally in the business of tracking these things, but their numbers for non-top 40 artists can be a bit off sometimes.
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I don't know the real capacity of, for example, the Net Live, but in this video it doesen't seem like it's half empty.
And btw, lots of strange things in this video:
- how did someone manage to film from there?
- JR with headphones?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS_fulhesSQ
(of course they're not that strange, just, unusual)
I wonder why JR is wearing headphones there ? To hear a click ?
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Maybe his in-ear monitors were lost or damaged, and he had to make do.
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I don't know the real capacity of, for example, the Net Live, but in this video it doesen't seem like it's half empty.
And btw, lots of strange things in this video:
- how did someone manage to film from there?
- JR with headphones?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS_fulhesSQ
(of course they're not that strange, just, unusual)
I wonder why JR is wearing headphones there ? To hear a click ?
To hear the turntables.
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Very long bump, but for good reason. Billboard got a result of their show at RCMH. People that was at the show. Was the attendance, 5,307 people out of a possible 5,850, accurate with what Billboard stated?
Dream Theater Radio City Music Hall New York, N.Y. April 23, 2016 $343,203 5,307 / 5,850 1 / 0 $120, $74.50, $59.50, $34.50 Live Nation/MSG Entertainment
Also, here's some other attendance data of other shows from the tour that Billboard has posted.
Dream Theater Bell Centre Montreal, Quebec April 15, 2016 $155,534 2,687 / 3,237 1 / 0 $61.90, $30.75 evenko/Live Nation/Greenland Productions
Dream Theater Chicago Theatre Chicago, Ill. April 30, 2016 $160,399 3,227 / 3,553 1 / 0 $86.25, $66.25, $56.25, $26.25 Live Nation/MSG Entertainmen
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RCMH looked pretty packed to me. I assumed it was a sell out, or close, so 90% capacity sounds about right.
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RCMH looked pretty packed to me. I assumed it was a sell out, or close, so 90% capacity sounds about right.
Yea, it was pretty packed.
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I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing. I am one of those people. Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing? I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991. They did a few other songs before and after it. Is DT doing the same?
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I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing. I am one of those people. Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing? I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991. They did a few other songs before and after it. Is DT doing the same?
Nope, just The Astonishing.
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I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing. I am one of those people. Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing? I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991. They did a few other songs before and after it. Is DT doing the same?
Are there people staying away? I'm not sure the evidence presented here shows that.
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I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing. I am one of those people. Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing? I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991. They did a few other songs before and after it. Is DT doing the same?
Are there people staying away? I'm not sure the evidence presented here shows that.
Only if by "staying away" you mean "Some people that normally try to catch DT aren't doing so on this tour because of what they are playing, but that is freeing up some seats for some other people who still want to see DT".
They aren't suffering as far as audience numbers or seats sold, that's for sure.
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Denver was pretty close to sold out. I was actually pretty surprised because there was also no bitching that they were playing the entire new album.
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I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing. I am one of those people. Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing? I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991. They did a few other songs before and after it. Is DT doing the same?
Are there people staying away? I'm not sure the evidence presented here shows that.
First time they are under 3k in montreal since the ADTOE tour
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I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing. I am one of those people. Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing? I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991. They did a few other songs before and after it. Is DT doing the same?
Are there people staying away? I'm not sure the evidence presented here shows that.
First time they are under 3k in montreal since the ADTOE tour
One data point does not show a trend. I'm not saying you are wrong, from this thread, i just don't see enough data to say any conclusions was more my point I was getting at. I'm curious if we could actually graph the attendance over multiple tours for a few cities to see trends. From what you are saying, it sounds like the ADTOE and DT12 tours were better attended than TA or anything before ADTOE which is interesting in and of itself too.
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Chicago seemed sold out...I couldn't see any empty seats. Maybe there were some still left in the far corners of the upper balcony. It was a really good show.
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Yeah the show in Greensburg was just as well attended for TA tour as it was for the DT12 tour at the same venue a couple years ago.
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I'm curious if there are a decent number of people who are staying away because they don't want to see The Astonishing. I am one of those people. Are they playing ANYTHING other than The Astonishing? I remember seeing Queensryche when they Mindcrime complete in 1991. They did a few other songs before and after it. Is DT doing the same?
Are there people staying away? I'm not sure the evidence presented here shows that.
First time they are under 3k in montreal since the ADTOE tour
One data point does not show a trend. I'm not saying you are wrong, from this thread, i just don't see enough data to say any conclusions was more my point I was getting at. I'm curious if we could actually graph the attendance over multiple tours for a few cities to see trends. From what you are saying, it sounds like the ADTOE and DT12 tours were better attended than TA or anything before ADTOE which is interesting in and of itself too.
Got the numbers for Montréal
ADTOE 2850
DT 12. 3086
TA. 2687
So it's a little less but not that much.
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Interesting though, are those all at the same venue and time of the week. Those might be important too, a 13% drop in attendance is still a decent drop, but maybe weekend/weekday and/or venue(if there was a change) could impact the numbers slightly.
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Tour ADTOE Friday, venue: Place des arts, capacity 3100
DT12 Friday, venue: Bell center Theater, capacity 3900
TA Friday, venue: same
So they played all last 3 tours on Friday nights which is a good night for concerts I think.
I was at Place des arts and remember that the place looked almost sold out.
For DT 12, I remember thinking that it looked like there was more people because the place is bigger.
Honestly, from what I have heard, TA is not as much appreciated here. It explains why the crowd was not as big. Still, for some people, it's a great album. And more popular towards the female fans.
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Tour ADTOE Friday, venue: Place des arts, capacity 3100
DT12 Friday, venue: Bell center Theater, capacity 3900
TA Friday, venue: same
So they played all last 3 tours on Friday nights which is a good night for concerts I think.
I was at Place des arts and remember that the place looked almost sold out.
For DT 12, I remember thinking that it looked like there was more people because the place is bigger.
Honestly, from what I have heard, TA is not as much appreciated here. It explains why the crowd was not as big. Still, for some people, it's a great album. And more popular towards the female fans.
Yea, that actually supports the idea that people were not as interested in seeing it live. Thanks for getting the info, I think it's cool to see this even if it does disappoint. I totally understand it though, TA was awesome live, but the presentation and the album itself is not for everyone.
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Yea, that actually supports the idea that people were not as interested in seeing it live.
No, not really. I mean, that MAY have been the case, but that data alone doesn't prove it at all. For starters, that isn't really that big of a dropoff. And second of all, we have no idea WHY there was a dropoff. There could be any number of explanations. For example (and these are completely hypothetical):
-Maybe if you look at the last 5 albums, there is a general down trend, with the DT12 tour being an anomaly. Or maybe the numbers have been fairly consistent and bounced around in the range between the ADTOE and Astonishing tours with DT12 being the anomaly. (and maybe more people came to the DT12 shows because they heard it was a special tour, with the Awake and SFAM anniversary sets or the playing of SDV)
-Maybe people were put off by the slightly higher ticket prices this time around rather than the show itself.
-Maybe people that got to experience DT in this venue last time didn't like the venue and didn't come back for that reason.
-Maybe, as Red Barchetta posted in his review of the DT12 tour, the audience just didn't seem to get into it on that tour, and so when this tour rolled around, some people just weren't as into seeing the band again no matter what they would have been playing. Quote:
You're right about the crowd. Maybe DT should have played a bit more of old songs. By itself, the crowd was not showing much excitement.
-Maybe people didn't like the sound during the DT12 show. As some said in the reviews in that thread, it was uncomfortably loud and distorted, at least in some parts of the theater.
-Maybe the tour just wasn't promoted as well this time around and not as many people knew about it.
Again, we just don't have enough info to draw any conclusions from the data, especially date from a single city that doesn't really show much of a dropoff at all and doesn't give a longer historical perspective for how the band has done in that city.
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I'd love to see more data. I'm kind of curious now as to why DT12 had a higher turn out if the historical data showed a downward trend and if there is a downward trend, then TA might actually fall in line with that, but I still believe 13% less people is a sign of not wanting to see the show and the example reasons why are still valid and it may not directly have to do with TA (ticket prices, venue choice).
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Maybe and maybe not. We just don't know. "I still believe" isn't proof. There are way too many variables to draw any conclusions.
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Promotion could be part of it. At least here in Denver, there was a pretty heavy (for DT standards) promotional cycle for their show here on the DT12 tour and pretty much nothing this time around. I would've had no idea they were playing here if I wasn't a DT fan. That said, they still did well here so who knows.
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Maybe and maybe not. We just don't know. "I still believe" isn't proof. There are way too many variables to draw any conclusions.
Of course it is not proof. Never said it was, just the data "supports the idea" which it definitely does because there was a drop off, but it is not conclusive because you are right, there are too many variables. But more data from previous tours (to see the larger trend) and more cities could make this more conclusive. I just find it all interesting, not trying to shit on DT or TA. I love both and definitely wish the numbers grew (and maybe they did).
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Yea, that actually supports the idea that people were not as interested in seeing it live.
No, not really. I mean, that MAY have been the case, but that data alone doesn't prove it at all. For starters, that isn't really that big of a dropoff. And second of all, we have no idea WHY there was a dropoff. There could be any number of explanations. For example (and these are completely hypothetical):
-Maybe if you look at the last 5 albums, there is a general down trend, with the DT12 tour being an anomaly. Or maybe the numbers have been fairly consistent and bounced around in the range between the ADTOE and Astonishing tours with DT12 being the anomaly. (and maybe more people came to the DT12 shows because they heard it was a special tour, with the Awake and SFAM anniversary sets or the playing of SDV)
-Maybe people were put off by the slightly higher ticket prices this time around rather than the show itself.
-Maybe people that got to experience DT in this venue last time didn't like the venue and didn't come back for that reason.
-Maybe, as Red Barchetta posted in his review of the DT12 tour, the audience just didn't seem to get into it on that tour, and so when this tour rolled around, some people just weren't as into seeing the band again no matter what they would have been playing. Quote:
You're right about the crowd. Maybe DT should have played a bit more of old songs. By itself, the crowd was not showing much excitement.
-Maybe people didn't like the sound during the DT12 show. As some said in the reviews in that thread, it was uncomfortably loud and distorted, at least in some parts of the theater.
-Maybe the tour just wasn't promoted as well this time around and not as many people knew about it.
Again, we just don't have enough info to draw any conclusions from the data, especially date from a single city that doesn't really show much of a dropoff at all and doesn't give a longer historical perspective for how the band has done in that city.
The sound at DT12 was loud but good. DT12 and TA were both played in a bigger venue. The building is huge and most of the seats on the higher levels are covered. They play in a 21000 people place but only with 4000 seats available in front and around the stage. The level of crowd response during the live act of TA was low but I have read that a lot during this tour in other places. Still, a 3000 crowd in a huge place can't sound like the top of the building will blow up.
When they play Place des arts in 2011, it's a perfect place. 2900 tickets were sold out of the maximum 3100 venue capacity. The sound was better and the scream from the crowd was clear and well heard.
Maybe they moved to a bigger place expecting selling more.
A 13% less sales is not that much but they would not like it on a whole tour. I have tried to find their numbers for the records sales since their beginning but it seems impossible to know. For those who have followed the band since their beginning or so, which it's not my case, I'm sure that at one point they have reached a peak in popularity. Maybe they are at their best popularity time. I don't know but it is still possible even with a controversial album for many like TA.
But if we could have the sales of the last 3 MP albums and the 3 MM ones, it would be very interesting.
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One thing I was thinking about is just the downward trend in general of concerts and album sales. The industry (from what I understand and maybe I can be proven wrong) has been on a decline for awhile. I'm curious as to why the DT12 tour cycle was so much more successful than previous tours. Was it the setlist with the anniversary songs? Was it the fact they went back to an evening with format? Was DT12 just a really popular album?
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Comparing record sales isn't going to tell you much about DT, it's going to tell you more about the record industry. Besides the mega-pop stars, record sales are continually declining industry-wide.
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Either way, the numbers are still very good for a band that has been around as long as DT. I just feel that there are a significant amount (yes, that is subjective . . . could be 15 people per show, could be 1,500 . . . ) who don't want to see The Astonishing, especially in its entirety with nothing else being played.
I'll wait for the next tour. With the amount of material and albums DT has, for this to be THE FIRST ONE I don't like, is pretty remarkable.
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Comparing record sales isn't going to tell you much about DT, it's going to tell you more about the record industry. Besides the mega-pop stars, record sales are continually declining industry-wide.
Yup, very true. And DT's curve seems to be slower than the industry as a whole, at least on the metal side of things. So comparatively speaking, they are doing well I guess. There just isn't a whole lot of money to be made on album sales anymore unless a band is HUGE.
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Either way, the numbers are still very good for a band that has been around as long as DT. I just feel that there are a significant amount (yes, that is subjective . . . could be 15 people per show, could be 1,500 . . . ) who don't want to see The Astonishing, especially in its entirety with nothing else being played.
I am 100% positive that is the case. But Red Barchetta likes to pretend he can prove that folks are staying away in droves because they hate the album, when that is far from the case.
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Either way, the numbers are still very good for a band that has been around as long as DT. I just feel that there are a significant amount (yes, that is subjective . . . could be 15 people per show, could be 1,500 . . . ) who don't want to see The Astonishing, especially in its entirety with nothing else being played.
I am 100% positive that is the case. But Red Barchetta likes to pretend he can prove that folks are staying away in droves because they hate the album, when that is far from the case.
???? I think that some people are less interested by TA and then don't go to the show. Could be 15 or 1500, yes I agree with that. Hating or not liking it, who cares, the album is not worth to go to the show for some people. Could be 15 or 1500 per show.
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All right, from this week's boxscore.
Dream Theater Fox Theater Oakland, Calif. May 8, 2016 $114,746 1,732 / 1,859 1 / 0 $85, $49.50 Another Planet Entertainment
Dream Theater State Theatre Minneapolis, Minn. May 1, 2016 $86,056 1,658 / 2,080 1 / 0 $70.50, $30.50 Emporium Presents
Nothing to brag about in terms of selling out the shows, but these still look well-attended enough (I think around 80% or more of the capacity is at least ok).
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Nice, seeing DT in Minny is cheap!
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I wonder what Dream Theater's fee is....
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Generally, it depends on the venue. The guarantees for different venues even on the same tour can vary significantly.
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Generally, it depends on the venue. The guarantees for different venues even on the same tour can vary significantly.
I thought DT's fees was guaranteed, like 30k per show, and not depending on the venue...I can see the rent of the venue how it would vary from place to place, but not DT's fee.
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I'm guessing the size of the market comes into play. For instance, I'd guess DT's fee is higher in New York city than it is in Greensburg (the show I went to on this tour).
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Generally, it depends on the venue. The guarantees for different venues even on the same tour can vary significantly.
I thought DT's fees was guaranteed, like 30k per show, and not depending on the venue...I can see the rent of the venue how it would vary from place to place, but not DT's fee.
Where are you getting that info? The way it usually works is that the band does negotiate for a "guarantee," which means they get paid their full fee regardless of how many tickets actually sell. But that does not mean the guarantees are the same at every venue they play in. They may have, for example, $30k to play at the Fox Theater in Oakland, and $27k to play in Minneapolis, and $33k to play in NYC. (numbers are completely made up for purposes of illustration only)
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I would love an inside look on the business of a band. I'm not really a business guy so maybe it's just my love for the music that makes it so interesting to me, but my curiosities spike when we talk about the numbers from a concert and how that translates to profits (or loss) for the band members.
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I would love an inside look on the business of a band. I'm not really a business guy so maybe it's just my love for the music that makes it so interesting to me, but my curiosities spike when we talk about the numbers from a concert and how that translates to profits (or loss) for the band members.
It's interesting stuff. From the outside, without giving it much thought, it is easy to think along the lines of, "Well, if they sell X tickets for a show, and the tickets cost Y, the total is Z, so let's assume the band gets 50% (or whatever number), and the rest just gets split between all the other people who get paid." But that isn't really how it works at all. The model is more like this:
-Band management negotiates with local promoters for their guarantees for particular venues. The promoter then negotiates directly with the venue, local radio stations, vendors, etc.
-Contract is ultimately agreed to that entitles "the Band" (not the band members, but rather the band's corporate entity) to a certain guaranteed amount for playing the show (and there can sometimes be contingencies that cause the guarantee to fluctuate). The contract will also specific how much others get paid (the venue, outside security, the promotion company, local advertisers, ticket sales company, etc.).
-The Band (i.e. the corporate entity) gets paid their guarantee (which is a MUCH smaller amount than you might think) and then has to pay a bunch of other people: their management staff, their crew, the lighting and production company, whoever is moving all the stuff, hospitality (hotels, food, and transportation for everyone), their own security (if applicable), etc. Their are a LOT of people who need to get paid.
-Whatever money is left is held by the Band (the entity again), and the band members usually get a fixed, predetermined salary at regular intervals, and then probably pay out "bonuses" at the end of the tax year so the entity doesn't get taxed on money it is holding, and the band members themselves have to pay for their own health insurance and all that stuff that normal people get from their jobs.
There are variations, and there are lots of other steps and details that are left out, but that is pretty close to how it typically works.
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Generally, it depends on the venue. The guarantees for different venues even on the same tour can vary significantly.
I thought DT's fees was guaranteed, like 30k per show, and not depending on the venue...I can see the rent of the venue how it would vary from place to place, but not DT's fee.
Where are you getting that info? The way it usually works is that the band does negotiate for a "guarantee," which means they get paid their full fee regardless of how many tickets actually sell. But that does not mean the guarantees are the same at every venue they play in. They may have, for example, $30k to play at the Fox Theater in Oakland, and $27k to play in Minneapolis, and $33k to play in NYC. (numbers are completely made up for purposes of illustration only)
My number was also for illustration purposes only as well. Should have mentioned that...but what you describe makes sense. I guess the band entity accepts or rejects the promoters' offers first (for the guarantee) and then everything else is negotiated afterwards.
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I would love an inside look on the business of a band. I'm not really a business guy so maybe it's just my love for the music that makes it so interesting to me, but my curiosities spike when we talk about the numbers from a concert and how that translates to profits (or loss) for the band members.
It's interesting stuff. From the outside, without giving it much thought, it is easy to think along the lines of, "Well, if they sell X tickets for a show, and the tickets cost Y, the total is Z, so let's assume the band gets 50% (or whatever number), and the rest just gets split between all the other people who get paid." But that isn't really how it works at all. The model is more like this:
-Band management negotiates with local promoters for their guarantees for particular venues. The promoter then negotiates directly with the venue, local radio stations, vendors, etc.
-Contract is ultimately agreed to that entitles "the Band" (not the band members, but rather the band's corporate entity) to a certain guaranteed amount for playing the show (and there can sometimes be contingencies that cause the guarantee to fluctuate). The contract will also specific how much others get paid (the venue, outside security, the promotion company, local advertisers, ticket sales company, etc.).
-The Band (i.e. the corporate entity) gets paid their guarantee (which is a MUCH smaller amount than you might think) and then has to pay a bunch of other people: their management staff, their crew, the lighting and production company, whoever is moving all the stuff, hospitality (hotels, food, and transportation for everyone), their own security (if applicable), etc. Their are a LOT of people who need to get paid.
-Whatever money is left is held by the Band (the entity again), and the band members usually get a fixed, predetermined salary at regular intervals, and then probably pay out "bonuses" at the end of the tax year so the entity doesn't get taxed on money it is holding, and the band members themselves have to pay for their own health insurance and all that stuff that normal people get from their jobs.
There are variations, and there are lots of other steps and details that are left out, but that is pretty close to how it typically works.
Awesome info, really cool stuff and totally figured a band operates as a company due to all the payouts and what not since like you said, it's more than just the members of the band. I also always figured all the band money goes into a pot to get distributed as pay checks to the members, otherwise personally managing your money becomes really difficult without a steady flow of income.
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I don't know exactly how it works but is it possible there is no guarantee for a basic amount of money for each show on the whole tour? I mean they certainly have an idea about how many people they need (approximately) to break even. In fact, for a band like them, I'm sure they make a profit on each show.
Travelling, hôtel rooms, meals, band crew, venues locations, publicity, etc etc, Jordan hairdresser, JP dumbles, James so tight clothes, JM does he really need something'? and MM more cameras to catch live his speedy hands lol, they certainly have it all figured out pretty much. With some +- margin, impossible to be exactly sure.
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My understanding is that the margins are smaller than one might think.
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My understanding is that the margins are smaller than one might think.
And that's why you have to play so many shows around the world, clearly it works though.
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Bumping this thread as DT are back on the boxscore this week. From their show in Sydney, Australia.
177 Dream Theater Hordern Pavilion Sydney, Australia Sept. 19, 2017 $159,485 1,465 / 1,509 1 / 0 $129.52, $105.11 One World Entertainment
On the one hand, this is a pretty good showing for DT in Australia. Good attendance, revenue, and averaging over $100 a ticket (shows in Australia are always expensive like hell). The concerning part though is that I'm looking at the capacity of the venue and it can hold up to 5,500 people and apparently the show as structured to fill only 1,500 so I'm a bit confused on whether or not DT's intention was to fill 5k people in that show.
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Australian tickets were $130 for outer-row seats & $160 for close-to-stage seats. When I was there it seemed pretty full, but it may just have been how the seats were set up. Maybe there's a bigger theater elsewhere in the building? I'm not sure.
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Bumping this thread as DT are back on the boxscore this week. From their show in Sydney, Australia.
177 Dream Theater Hordern Pavilion Sydney, Australia Sept. 19, 2017 $159,485 1,465 / 1,509 1 / 0 $129.52, $105.11 One World Entertainment
On the one hand, this is a pretty good showing for DT in Australia. Good attendance, revenue, and averaging over $100 a ticket (shows in Australia are always expensive like hell). The concerning part though is that I'm looking at the capacity of the venue and it can hold up to 5,500 people and apparently the show as structured to fill only 1,500 so I'm a bit confused on whether or not DT's intention was to fill 5k people in that show.
The Hordern is basically just a big empty floor, with some elevated rows of seats on the left/right side of the room (which I don't think DT use, and don't fit all that many). I didn't go this time, but did they do seated instead? With those numbers, they might be better off playing a smaller venue like the Enmore Theatre.
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Bumping this thread as DT are back on the boxscore this week. From their show in Sydney, Australia.
177 Dream Theater Hordern Pavilion Sydney, Australia Sept. 19, 2017 $159,485 1,465 / 1,509 1 / 0 $129.52, $105.11 One World Entertainment
On the one hand, this is a pretty good showing for DT in Australia. Good attendance, revenue, and averaging over $100 a ticket (shows in Australia are always expensive like hell). The concerning part though is that I'm looking at the capacity of the venue and it can hold up to 5,500 people and apparently the show as structured to fill only 1,500 so I'm a bit confused on whether or not DT's intention was to fill 5k people in that show.
We have an arena in town that isn't doing so great. I don't live in a huge area but big enough to have minor league sports teams, etc. This arena can hold 10,000 people for concerts but we aren't getting too many big acts through here. Occasionally they have concerts that are a lot cheaper to put on, they have fewer concessions open, and have fewer staff working the event. They close off the entire upper bowl so basically the capacity is now put at 6,000. We've been getting more acts through that are more small time and fill maybe 2-3000 seats. Makes the arena more money than keeping it closed. One I went to only had about 500 people there and they were selling tickets for 7 bucks. Other times they basically sell out the whole floor and lower bowl.
A lot of other places do that now too. If there is an anomaly and a huge demand all they gotta do is start selling seats for the closed off section but that is rare. I'm betting that's what happened in Australia.
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I forgot to mention. DT's on the boxscore this week. From their show in Chicago.
Dream Theater Chicago Theatre Chicago, Ill. Nov. 3, 2017 $142,321 2,560 / 3,553 1 / 0 $86.25, $66.25, $41.50, $26.25 Live Nation/MSG Live
If you look past the fact that they did not sell 1k tickets to make it a sold-out show, this is actually a good result from them. Not too many bands after the "who's who" of popular rock and metal bands can be able to sell 2,500 tickets in a big city like Chicago as a standalone headliner and the revenue the show drew in ticket sales is above six-figures, averaging almost $60 (as a face value).
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Interesting. They did 3,153 3 years ago touring in support of DT12. Selling 600 fewer seats isn't a huge deal but I for one am actually surprised they did better touring for their new (at the time) album as opposed to their arguably most popular album. I'm actually quite happy that new music seems to evoke a slightly higher demand than nostalgia.
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Have their tickets gone more expensive over the last three years? Can anyone compare the two Chicago shows?
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Dream Theater Chicago Theatre Chicago, Ill. Nov. 3, 2017 $142,321 2,560 / 3,553 1 / 0 $86.25, $66.25, $41.50, $26.25 Live Nation/MSG Live
Dream Theater Chicago Theatre Chicago, Ill. April 30, 2016 $160,399 3,227 / 3,553 1 / 0 $86.25, $66.25, $56.25, $26.25 Live Nation/MSG Entertainmen
60 Dream Theater Chicago Theatre Chicago, Ill. April 5, 2014 $148,223 3,153 / 3,553 1 / 0 $66, $56, $46, $26 Live Nation/MSG Entertainment
Tickets were relatively cheaper in 2014 but the additional seats sold only translated to an additional $6,000.
Also interesting that the Astonishing show sold so well. I think the drop off in attendance can be attributed to them touring again so soon after their last Chicago show, not touring in support of new material and ticket prices. Still pretty good numbers all things considered.
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^ Yeah, I think that could mean it's time for a break in touring and a new studio album. Looks like taking some time off in 2018 for JP to do G3 will be good for the band. By the time they come back around NA they will have a new album and it will have been a couple years since they last played in most cities. That should increase demand.
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Yea JLB has been saying see ya in 2019 with a new album and tour. If the music is good, the people will come to the shows. It was nice to see mostly full theaters for this tour compared to the emptiness of the previous TA tour. Shows people still care about DT even if they didn't like TA.
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DT is on the boxscore this week. Here's how did they in their show in Oakland, CA.
Dream Theater Fox Theater Oakland, Calif. Oct. 25, 2017 $113,576 1,701 / 1,897 1 / 0 $85, $49.50 Another Planet Entertainment
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DT is on the boxscore this week. Here's how did they in their show in Oakland, CA.
Dream Theater Fox Theater Oakland, Calif. Oct. 25, 2017 $113,576 1,701 / 1,897 1 / 0 $85, $49.50 Another Planet Entertainment
Thanks for posting. Stupid question: what does the "1 / 0" mean? I can figure everything else out, but not that.
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Oh, that can be confusing as well. The 1 is the number of shows that they played in the same venue around that period. The 0 means the number of shows that they sold out in that venue for the period. It basically means that Dream Theater played a show in that venue, but they did not sell it out. It would be reflective upon attendance as well. For instance, the post I did, if the attendance was 1,897/1,897, the 1 / 0 would be 1 / 1 instead.
For instance, if Billboard showed what Dream Theater did in their two shows at the Wiltern Theater in Los Angeles back in 2016, but the two shows were not sold out, it would be reported as 2 / 0
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Thanks for the explanation!
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Here's how well-attended DT's show in New York City in November 2017 was.
Dream Theater Beacon Theatre New York, N.Y. Nov. 16, 2017 $154,538 2,202 / 2,775 1 / 0 $119, $68.50, $58.50, $48.50 Metamorphic Productions
Now, this is the interesting thing. This being NYC, I actually thought they might have done better in the attendance, especially when it comes to playing Images and Words in full and NYC being a really big area for DT in general.
Oddly enough, when DT came to NYC for The Astonishing tour, they played a bigger venue (Radio City Music Hall) and had more than twice the amount of attendance and generated more than twice the revenue. These are the kinds of comparisons that makes you wonder sometimes.
Dream Theater Radio City Music Hall New York, N.Y. April 23, 2016 $343,203 5,307 / 5,850 1 / 0 $120, $74.50, $59.50, $34.50 Live Nation/MSG Entertainment
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Here's how well-attended DT's show in New York City in November 2017 was.
Dream Theater Beacon Theatre New York, N.Y. Nov. 16, 2017 $154,538 2,202 / 2,775 1 / 0 $119, $68.50, $58.50, $48.50 Metamorphic Productions
Now, this is the interesting thing. This being NYC, I actually thought they might have done better in the attendance, especially when it comes to playing Images and Words in full and NYC being a really big area for DT in general.
Oddly enough, when DT came to NYC for The Astonishing tour, they played a bigger venue (Radio City Music Hall) and had more than twice the amount of attendance and generated more than twice the revenue. These are the kinds of comparisons that makes you wonder sometimes.
Dream Theater Radio City Music Hall New York, N.Y. April 23, 2016 $343,203 5,307 / 5,850 1 / 0 $120, $74.50, $59.50, $34.50 Live Nation/MSG Entertainment
Over-saturation?
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You have to take more into account. That DT show at RCMH was a pretty big one for the band, as they didn't do too many shows that first round in the US and many travelled to NYC for that show. I know this because we here at DTF and the fan club had a really nice meet up, and it was half locals half people travelled it seemed.
The attendance for Beacon Theater seems normal for DT. I'd wonder what the follow up NJ shows attendance was. For TA tour it was probably very little, but the I&W show seemed fairly well attended.
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You have to take more into account. That DT show at RCMH was a pretty big one for the band, as they didn't do too many shows that first round in the US and many travelled to NYC for that show. I know this because we here at DTF and the fan club had a really nice meet up, and it was half locals half people travelled it seemed.
The attendance for Beacon Theater seems normal for DT. I'd wonder what the follow up NJ shows attendance was. For TA tour it was probably very little, but the I&W show seemed fairly well attended.
Good point, anytime DT plays Radio City it seems like an extra special event. I'd love to see attendance comparisons of the TA tour vs the I&W tour, especially in cities where they played the same venue.
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You have to take more into account. That DT show at RCMH was a pretty big one for the band, as they didn't do too many shows that first round in the US and many travelled to NYC for that show. I know this because we here at DTF and the fan club had a really nice meet up, and it was half locals half people travelled it seemed.
The attendance for Beacon Theater seems normal for DT. I'd wonder what the follow up NJ shows attendance was. For TA tour it was probably very little, but the I&W show seemed fairly well attended.
Ahhh. Didn't know that. Thanks for that little tidbit there.